00:00:25 It's a bull penis _and_ a beating heart. 00:01:25 fungot, are you going to threaten to kill me with the bull penis? 00:01:26 Phantom_Hoover: though the fact that this is apparently a bull penis, and a variety of interests. you have a passion for really terrible movies. he would just go on and on about it. 00:01:41 fungot, it's a variety of interests too? 00:01:41 Phantom_Hoover: is it there she is. 00:02:24 -!- Patashu has joined. 00:18:02 fungot, are you still in youtube mode? 00:18:03 Lymee: the stuff scattered about your room. you of course it was a nasty pair of beagle puss glasses, several () a blank card, producing a different hole in the roof 00:18:07 ^style youtube 00:18:08 Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments) 00:18:09 fungot, are you still in youtube mode? 00:18:10 Lymee: got footage of the a-320 that had been certified by the computer overrode the automatic throttle system but it keeps skippin for me, you managed to contradict yourself there big time, this movie will be epic 00:18:11 :D 00:18:15 Lymee, IT WAS YOU 00:18:36 ^style homestuck 00:18:36 Selected style: homestuck (Homestuck pages 1901-4673) 00:18:43 fungot, NEVER LEAVE THIS MODE 00:18:43 Phantom_Hoover: this is it, like an apple or a cunning prankster than a common sort of 00:18:52 ^style 00:18:52 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher homestuck* ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 00:18:57 ^style irc 00:18:57 Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams) 00:18:59 ^style homestuck 00:18:59 Selected style: homestuck (Homestuck pages 1901-4673) 00:19:02 ^style irc 00:19:02 Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams) 00:19:04 >:c 00:19:04 ^style homestuck 00:19:04 Selected style: homestuck (Homestuck pages 1901-4673) 00:19:17 ^style 00:19:17 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher homestuck ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 00:19:19 ^style homestuck 00:19:19 Selected style: homestuck (Homestuck pages 1901-4673) 00:19:25 whats homestuck 00:19:30 fungot: hi 00:19:31 hams on steaks 00:19:31 Lymee: i see def-bf as being used to do that 00:19:34 monqy, go to mspaintadventures.com 00:19:36 ^style 00:19:36 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher homestuck ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 00:19:37 ^_^ 00:19:38 Phantom_Hoover: He knows. 00:19:39 ^style homestuck 00:19:39 Selected style: homestuck (Homestuck pages 1901-4673) 00:19:46 elliott, -_- 00:19:46 Anyway, stop talking, I need to war with Lymee. 00:19:50 ^style homestuck 00:19:50 Selected style: homestuck (Homestuck pages 1901-4673) 00:19:50 ^style homestuck 00:19:50 Selected style: homestuck (Homestuck pages 1901-4673) 00:19:51 ^style homestuck 00:19:51 Selected style: homestuck (Homestuck pages 1901-4673) 00:19:51 ^style homestuck 00:19:51 Selected style: homestuck (Homestuck pages 1901-4673) 00:19:51 ^style homestuck 00:19:51 Selected style: homestuck (Homestuck pages 1901-4673) 00:19:53 fungot: there. 00:19:53 elliott: are you in the medium. 00:19:59 ^style 00:19:59 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher homestuck* ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 00:20:03 Lymee, CONTINUE AND I SHALL MURDER YOUR DWARF SOMEHOW 00:20:06 ;-; 00:20:10 ^style 00:20:10 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher homestuck* ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 00:20:26 ^style 00:20:26 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher homestuck* ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 00:21:07 ^style 00:21:07 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7* fisher homestuck ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 00:21:10 ^style homestuck 00:21:10 Selected style: homestuck (Homestuck pages 1901-4673) 00:21:30 ^style youtube 00:21:30 Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments) 00:21:38 ^style homestuc 00:21:38 Not found. 00:21:39 ^style homestuck 00:21:39 Selected style: homestuck (Homestuck pages 1901-4673) 00:21:40 ^style youtube 00:21:41 Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments) 00:21:43 ^style homestuck 00:21:43 Selected style: homestuck (Homestuck pages 1901-4673) 00:21:44 ^style youtube 00:21:44 Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments) 00:21:47 fizzie: You should totally just remove ^style. 00:21:48 ^style homestuck 00:21:48 Selected style: homestuck (Homestuck pages 1901-4673) 00:21:50 ^style youtube 00:21:50 Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments) 00:21:52 ^style homestuck 00:21:53 Selected style: homestuck (Homestuck pages 1901-4673) 00:21:55 Lymee: asie. 00:22:03 :( 00:22:04 this is dumb and makes me sad 00:22:13 monqy: its my sworn duty to fight all asies 00:22:17 swron,,, 00:22:24 fungot: Hi. Are you Homestuck? :D 00:22:24 Lymee: listen guys it was a test 00:22:32 ^style homestuck 00:22:32 Selected style: homestuck (Homestuck pages 1901-4673) 00:22:34 fungot: hams 00:22:34 elliott: as it turned out, fooling around and transportalize as far as the details of the game mythology by now. try to be careful, ok? this book is full of more meow." she mistook this for more nonsense, but it is of course. 00:23:13 fungot: do not homestuck style ever again. OK? 00:23:14 Lymee:/ more enduring social instincts conquer other less persistent instincts--the social virtues alone regarded by savages--the self-regarding virtues acquired at a later period over/ lighter and upper lavas :)/ uspallata range; origin subsequent to that :)/ perfect flowers 4.27 inches in height; or as 100 to 75. 00:24:12 ^style 00:24:13 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher homestuck* ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 00:24:23 ^style jargon 00:24:24 Selected style: jargon (UNIX-HATERS mailing list archive) 00:24:24 fungot: hi 00:24:25 elliott: cisco systems pays dec for stolen software developers, system v release 4 and osf/ 3 globbing, which bloomed into a daze where they kept the cadr carcasses they now have a link to a 00:24:32 fungot: sup 00:24:32 elliott: like a very clear mirror 00:24:38 * Lymee ninja success 00:24:50 ^style c64 00:24:50 Selected style: c64 (C64 programming material) 00:24:55 fungot: hihi 00:24:55 Lymee: that is a winner's attitude, and there is no particularly good human translation for this concept. a concept usually denoted by a single, linear concept. a concept usually denoted by a single, linear concept. a concept usually denoted by a single, linear concept. a concept usually denoted by a single, linear concept. a concept usually denoted by a single, linear concept. a concept usually denoted by a single, linear conc 00:25:00 fungot: sup 00:25:01 elliott: about his hat dirty. either way, spoils are yours toward a common goal, and because you can't understand 00:25:02 Lymee: you try 00:25:05 ^style ct 00:25:05 Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script) 00:25:14 ^stylewp 00:25:16 ^style wp 00:25:16 Selected style: wp (1/256th of all Wikipedia "Talk:" namespace pages) 00:25:20 ^style ss 00:25:21 Selected style: ss (Shakespeare's writings) 00:25:25 fungot: hi 00:25:25 Lymee: as a veteran of the game. it's what happens when you start running, she'll have to pry the cigarette holder to support. 00:25:29 fungot: hi 00:25:29 Lymee: your blood is, he's a total badass, and that his awesomeness was also sort of a thing i do. she is the best character, you know. forever! 00:25:41 fungot: hi 00:25:41 Lymee: enter name. 00:25:42 fungot: hi 00:25:43 Lymee: that happens, right. maybe it would be best not to be near it when this happens every little gag and expected to arrive today that i was about to get blown up! this does not seem to exist in a state of almost perpetual stalemate, and expands to a larger board and more exotic collection of what he refers to as a thermal hull, instead of some kind of clock pun. no. cold. really cold shit flushed from derse. dave's package 00:25:48 >:c 00:25:53 Jerk. 00:25:56 looks like hamsteak to me 00:25:58 that does not sound like shakespeare that osunds like hommestucke 00:26:13 fungot: hi 00:26:50 ^style 00:26:51 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher homestuck* ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 00:27:21 fungot: hi 00:27:27 fungot: hi 00:27:30 :( 00:27:40 fungot: hi 00:27:40 elliott: the point is its important! everyone )(as just been so busy abjuring, you don't actually give a shit. if it were up to him we would try to be these mysterious characters but you suspect. what a royal mess of his lovely new horseleather bib. it is a good idea. 00:27:42 it doesnt like us now 00:27:54 it ignores you after a while 00:29:11 fungot: hi 00:29:12 Lymee: keep. i will walke my selfe to thy direction, toward london then, for we haue put thee in comfort, not by two that i know our greatest friends attend vs 00:34:28 fungot, if elliott messed with your brain, I swear... 00:34:28 Lymee: in that reality. she flew in his window, seized the game with a dead heir and witch 00:34:31 ... 00:34:39 * Lymee knife glint 00:41:52 -!- atome has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 01:01:04 ^style ss 01:01:04 Selected style: ss (Shakespeare's writings) 01:01:09 fungot: kill elliott please 01:01:10 Lymee: hub. vpon my sword, and turne her out, and therefore more valiant, being as good a man as york! vernon. hark ye: not so much as conjure fort, and make a darke night too of halfe the day: which better then the male. it is 01:19:40 -!- cheater has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 01:32:24 -!- cheater has joined. 01:46:17 -!- lament has joined. 01:47:35 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/User:UToneyNicholsonm this userpage makes me happy 01:59:26 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 02:03:39 it is clearly the best 02:04:26 * oerjan suddenly has an idea for a weird captcha 02:04:41 "What is the URL of this page?" 02:05:11 it's sole purpose would be to reveal the location of captcha farms 02:05:14 *its 02:05:32 haha 02:05:55 ok, it might also work slightly as an ordinary captcha 02:07:14 * Lymee did not edit that userpage with a stupid meme 02:08:35 * oerjan refuses to admit that it is an improvement 02:16:14 For it to work, you'd need to find a way to prevent it form being recognised automatically. 02:16:49 always a problem 02:16:49 Since a bot would be able to know what url it's looking at. 02:17:39 Maybe have a number of different types of tasks, and instead of obfuscating the answer, do so with the question. 02:17:48 -!- Sulmersal has joined. 02:18:51 'what is the URL of this page'? 02:18:55 how would that reveal captcha farms? 02:19:40 -!- Sulmersal has quit (Client Quit). 02:21:07 Patashu: Mechanical Turk type captcha farms. 02:21:44 Oh, I see, captchas being solved on another side 02:21:52 But would the captcha being executed know what url it's on? 02:23:41 gah how does this work 02:27:34 That would be hard. 02:28:11 i was imagining the sort of thing where your captcha is used for a captcha on another page, which the spammers control... something i read about somewhere 02:28:20 Though really, it's not like it needs to know. If someone gives the wrong url from seeing it on a farmign site, then it's the wrong one. 02:28:37 Er, then it's not like you need ot let them go through anyway. 02:28:50 What oerjan jsut said. 02:29:37 oerjan: that would most likely be an iframe, though 02:29:44 in which case the URL that the captcha saw would be itself 02:30:00 hm 02:30:10 I guess it could detect whether it was in frames, but 02:31:58 oerjan: i.e. Mechanical Turk. 02:32:01 hm shouldn't captchas do that kind of detection anyway 02:32:11 MDude: i think it would help if they found a way to integrate the name of a website into the background of a captcha 02:32:39 oerjan: I suspect they simply screenshot it or similar 02:32:40 the problem then would be that the varmints would try to unintegrate the background 02:33:01 elliott: if it's screenshot, then the scheme should work... 02:33:09 oerjan: oh hm true 02:33:29 like, supposedly they do captcha redirections too 02:33:32 hmm, this sucks (maybe) 02:33:47 like having a site which borrows someone elses capcthas 02:33:58 to get naive people to fill them in 02:34:09 itidus20: that's what i'm talking about 02:34:12 If they just type what's in the image, though, it doesn't give away the location. 02:34:16 oh no fuck 02:34:18 im in utrecht land 02:34:32 MDude: the image asks them to input the url they are on 02:34:33 i think if they were to put the URL into the captcha image itself it would help 02:34:33 what happened 02:34:34 presumably 02:34:42 like a watermark 02:34:47 monqy: utrecht 02:34:52 oerjan: help im utrecht 02:34:53 which they would then of course try to remove 02:34:58 itidus20: um you are having the opposite idea of what this is intended to do 02:34:58 all I remember is utrecht is scary 02:35:22 itidus20: knowing they're helping spammers won't stop people helping 02:35:34 itidus20: this is supposed to trick the people filling in the captchas to reveal what website they are filling it in on 02:35:34 not starving > not helping spammers 02:35:40 Well I think it would actually stop a few folk. 02:35:46 Just not enough. 02:35:54 MDude: I gather they mainly use farms of Chinese people and the like 02:36:02 so... I doubt it 02:36:11 gotta love slavery 02:36:15 Yes, though that wouldn't exactly be like Mechanical Turk. 02:36:23 indeed 02:38:04 In that case, it seems like it would be easier to help decrease poverty in china that to stop an army of determined slaves. 02:38:29 its also prisoners 02:38:48 i heard that they make prisoners play world of warcraft for example 02:39:10 I would think that would be a bit risky. 02:39:18 "Welcome to prison... here's your MMO account." 02:39:26 "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!" 02:39:31 "ANYTHING BUT WORLD OF WARCRAFT!!!!!!" 02:39:32 How to they prevent the prisoners from leaking out information? 02:39:41 "I'm a great Starcraft player -- I swear!" 02:39:43 ok if these are really mostly chinese farms, then i get another idea: make captchas that require people to know something the chinese government is censoring :P 02:39:51 they're not allowed to "play" as such.. they have to tediously earn money 02:40:01 oerjan: :D 02:40:05 Ah, so no chat ability I guess. 02:40:10 and/or which reveals such information 02:40:11 oerjan: "What is the Tienanmen square massacre?" 02:40:13 dunno 02:40:14 alternatively: get --yes 02:40:16 s/What is/When did the - happen/ 02:40:25 elliott: precisely :P 02:40:42 oerjan :o 02:40:44 haha 02:40:55 you're genious 02:41:28 now... how to convince them to do that 02:42:17 i don't think blizzard would like that 02:42:50 I don't think WoW uses captchas anyway. 02:42:51 ...why did someone edit idiocy into a spam userpage 02:43:16 MDude, but still... the game of WoW could be edited to send such messages 02:43:17 is 68.95.248.65 2 years of age 02:43:19 monqy: see above 02:43:24 monqy: lymia 02:43:28 oh 02:43:32 how far above 02:43:35 I'm bad at looking 02:43:56 monqy: *:06 02:44:02 I... 02:44:04 Uh.... 02:44:10 * Lymee hides 02:44:13 I would've made a joke referencing Crab Nicholson. 02:44:35 they could introduce new creature into WoW.. three watch crab and grass mud horse 02:45:33 but that would just cause a fury of immense proportions 02:46:42 itidus20: iirc that wouldn't be any different from a dirty pun in english 02:46:52 which would upset the americans i assume 02:49:17 monqy: so the gpipe guy........ 02:49:23 monqy: responded to my issues and is looking at my fork............... 02:49:29 and is supportive of making it windowing-system-generic............... 02:49:32 and replacing Vec............. 02:49:55 unforking in progress... 02:50:01 ........ 02:50:19 elliott: replacing vec with what 02:50:26 monqy: something else.........maybe tuples.......... 02:50:38 these are...... the iksues............. 02:50:40 https://github.com/tobbebex/GPipe/issues/1 02:50:40 https://github.com/tobbebex/GPipe/issues/2 02:51:04 but can tuples do linear algebra 02:51:42 why not :P 02:51:56 effort in rewriting whatever vec did 02:52:27 gpipe doesn't use so much that rewriting the functions for tuples would be worse than keeping it 02:52:28 > (1,2) + (3,4) -- hm? 02:52:29 (4,6) 02:52:35 :D 02:52:44 oerjan: ok gpipe does a _bit_ more than that with them :D 02:52:44 oerjan: ok so rather something like WoWleaks 02:53:00 oerjan: http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/Vec/0.9.8/doc/html/Data-Vec-LinAlg.html 02:53:32 finding out what is being censored and leaking it in WoW 02:53:49 -!- pumpkin has joined. 02:54:36 itidus20: i really don't think WoW is a useful place for this. all it would achieve is to get it banned in china. 02:55:27 yeah 02:56:38 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 02:56:47 -!- pumpkin has changed nick to copumpkin. 02:58:33 i have this idea that the captcha would discriminate based on IP - it would use bad information about any country _except_ the one you are connecting from 02:59:54 thus you would only get your own country insulted if you are doing something like rerouting through a botnet in another country 03:00:39 :D 03:00:44 (as spammers are likely to do) 03:01:59 Warning: Ignoring unusable UNPACK pragma on the 03:02:00 second argument of `Cons' 03:02:01 noooooooooooooo 03:02:17 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 03:02:36 elliott: UNPACK cannot be used on polymorphic types, can it? 03:02:42 (vague recall here) 03:03:04 because the unpacked size has to be known 03:03:12 oerjan, why would you do that? 03:03:27 Lymee: do what? 03:03:44 oerjan: yeah, I just want these compile-time vectors to end up as effectively tuples, really :P 03:03:49 compile-time-size that is 03:04:23 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 03:04:55 I really wish GHC had pattern synonyms 03:05:53 a few things about patterns make me sad but I forgot what they are oops 03:05:58 :t tmap f (a, b, c) = (f a, f b, f c) 03:05:58 parse error on input `=' 03:06:06 :t \f (a, b, c) -> (f a, f b, f c) 03:06:06 forall t t1. (t -> t1) -> (t, t, t) -> (t1, t1, t1) 03:08:21 monqy: well they aren't truly first class for one thing 03:08:38 well, i guess that's most of it 03:09:22 oerjan: what's the maximum tuple length the report guarantees again? 03:09:40 15 rings a bell, but don't count on it 03:09:45 heh 03:11:41 of course only 2 has more than a couple useful functions 03:12:29 was that a pun aaaaaaa 03:12:35 no 03:12:38 ok 03:12:48 unless by accident 03:13:39 lack of general support for n-touples makes me sad 03:15:05 does TH help much at all? 03:15:36 it's been so long since I used it, but I remember some general tuple constructy stuff 03:17:29 im trying to figure out how to make constructing tuples non-ugly :( 03:17:33 a :- b :- c :- Nil is ugly because of the :- Nil 03:17:43 but (a :- b :- c) is unsustainable, you have to use ugly type-family crap and it doesn't really work 03:17:52 or typeclass shit i suppose 03:18:32 the :- Nill reminds me of the :.() or whatever it was in Vec 03:18:51 .: ???????? 03:20:32 monqy: yeah it's pretty much the same 03:20:34 and :. 03:20:35 it's a constructor 03:20:45 it's just that Vec doesn't use gadts so it can be more flexible about waht the nil value is 03:20:48 hmm, I could try a quasiquotation thing 03:21:15 ok i just had an idea for a programming game.. basically the interpreter is undocumented.. so you have to uncover the syntax of the language somehow 03:21:19 [vec| a, b, c |] or something I guess 03:21:35 are the commas necessary 03:21:47 monqy: well I guess not 03:21:48 I guess they might help make it cleaner 03:21:49 perhaps you could infer the syntax entirely through error messages 03:21:54 [vec| (9+0) (9+9) |] is kind of ugly 03:21:58 yeah 03:21:59 compared to [vec| 9+0, 9+9 |] 03:22:00 but umm 03:22:04 f [vec| a, b |] = ... 03:22:05 is ugly too 03:22:06 maybe v 03:22:09 f [v|a,b|] = ... 03:22:10 ugh 03:22:23 hmm 03:22:27 I guess f [v|(a,b)|] = ... 03:22:29 might be ok 03:22:36 and back to nap 03:23:13 I prefer [v|a,b|] over [v|(a,b)|] 03:23:22 the parens seem a bit extraneous 03:23:23 oh and that means you can't shadow v 03:23:25 :( 03:23:33 ??? 03:23:38 yeah 03:23:42 in [abc|...|] 03:23:44 abc is a varname 03:24:08 oh, that stuff doesn't have its own namespace 03:24:09 ? 03:25:07 yeah 03:26:48 I think my favourite so far might be [vec| a, b |], in that case 03:28:00 vecSizeIsNat :: ((Nat n) => r) -> Vec n a -> r 03:28:01 vecSizeIsNat k V = k 03:28:01 vecSizeIsNat k (_ :- xs) = vecSizeIsNat k xs 03:28:01 mah proofs,,, 03:32:50 :o 03:32:56 statically sized vectors, eh 03:33:01 I bet you need 03:33:04 THE PROOF WIZARD 03:33:08 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to ProofWizard. 03:33:12 YAAAAAAAAAAAY 03:33:19 I wish GHC had proper existential quantification, can you make this happen????????????????? 03:33:24 NO 03:33:39 I am all kinds of down on having to choose between continuation-passing style and a typeclass for my fromList, ProofWizard 03:33:40 All kinds of down 03:33:53 or just an existential wrapper 03:34:00 saves you from explicit continuations, at least 03:34:14 besides, things aren't all fun and games with real existentials 03:34:39 ProofWizard: Well, yeah. 03:34:44 And I know they aren't, but I can dream. 03:35:44 ProofWizard: I don't suppose proof wizards have an opinion on how to mitigate or avoid the ugly ":- V" in (a :- b :- c :- V) without resorting to an even uglier [vec| a, b, c |] 03:36:11 no 03:36:52 ProofWizard: You are the shittiest kind of wizard, man 03:36:56 :( 03:37:20 ProofWizard: I'm sorry :( 03:37:22 I take it back 03:37:56 ProofWizard: I don't suppose you know of any decent existing statically-sized vector packages on Hackage, though? I was incredibly surprised that I couldn't find a good one :-P 03:38:02 nope 03:38:09 Hmm, I'm still not happy with the name of http://esolangs.org/wiki/Wirefunge 03:38:15 most of the decent ones I've written live in dark corners of my hard drive or on hpaste 03:38:47 Patashu: Call it the wire-crossing problem 03:39:09 ProofWizard: You should join my (one-man) Bitter About All the Old Hpastes Being Lost Brigade 03:39:27 im join too 03:39:36 one time I couldn't find a hpaste I wanted to find 03:39:39 because it was lost 03:39:43 this upset me 03:41:20 lol 03:48:41 http://hpaste.org/49865 whats meant to be seemingly impossible about this.... 03:49:30 what do you call those, nondeterministic functions? 03:49:31 like in haskell 03:50:00 wat? 03:50:09 I saw one that made power sets in learnyouahaskell 03:50:28 what 03:52:48 > filterM (const [False, True]) "abcd" 03:52:49 ["","d","c","cd","b","bd","bc","bcd","a","ad","ac","acd","ab","abd","abc","... 03:52:52 that one? 03:52:56 that one yes 03:52:57 -!- ProofWizard has changed nick to copumpkin. 03:53:10 in that case, "list monad" 03:53:54 (diff) (hist) . . List of ideas‎; 03:03 . . (+504) . . Saulrh (Talk | contribs) (→General Ideas - Structifuck and Protofuck: create a spec for object-oriented Brainfuck, then write google protocol buffers using for it.) 03:53:57 kill dead 03:54:25 webscalefuck 03:54:30 cloudfuck 03:55:35 Everyone can provide their own implementation of '+' 03:55:51 Object-oriented..... 03:55:52 WHAT 03:55:54 hi 04:00:22 Insufficiently object. 04:00:54 I simply propose that everything is an object factory. 04:01:46 AdditionServerProxyRequestFactory 04:01:54 (am i doing it right?) 04:02:06 tc factories 04:02:22 oerjan: Except that you obviously also have an AdditionServerProxyRequestFactoryFactory. 04:02:32 And so on. 04:02:40 Hmm 04:02:49 What we need is something to dynamically create factory classes at runtime 04:02:54 Then we don't need to define them all \o/ 04:02:54 | 04:02:54 >\ 04:03:31 I think that's called "partial application". 04:04:25 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:07:16 JustAnotherVirtualmachineApplicationFactory 04:07:25 -!- sebbu has joined. 04:07:26 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 04:07:26 -!- sebbu has joined. 04:11:38 -!- myndzi has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:12:01 -!- myndzi has joined. 04:12:32 -!- myndzi has quit (Client Quit). 04:12:39 -!- myndzi has joined. 04:16:16 -!- MDude has changed nick to MSleep. 04:19:19 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 04:28:10 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:28:43 They did not "already do"; they made Unity the default, sure, but the old classic Gnome desktop is still an option in 11.04. 04:31:49 Right. 04:35:07 Though the "not an option in 11.10" seems to mean that it's not going to be on the CD; I suppose they'll still hae packages for it. 04:42:39 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 04:42:39 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Changing host). 04:42:39 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 04:52:56 http://www.4clojure.com/problem/26 < pfft, fail 04:52:58 Cheaty solution is shortest. 05:02:37 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:06:29 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 05:14:17 -!- itidus21 has joined. 05:17:47 -!- itidus20 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 05:42:18 -!- quintopia has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 05:43:53 -!- quintopia has joined. 06:01:04 -!- angstrom has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 06:37:41 i just want to use old versions of netscape and fvwm all day, is that so wrong 06:39:05 sounds pretty wrong, yes 06:39:10 :( 06:43:50 My first window manager (IIRC): fvwm95. (Pretty sad.) 06:44:52 If you don't count the rather screwed-up "Workplace Shell" clone for Windows 3.1; http://toastytech.com/guis/wps.html 06:45:06 "It was created because people might find it useful if they used OS/2 and also had to use Windows 3.1, or for people who just wanted to learn about the OS/2 Workplace Shell without having to install OS/2." 06:46:22 fvwm95 is wonderful 06:46:25 im so happy for you fizzie 06:48:00 http://fvwm95.sourceforge.net/screenshot-full.gif OH IT LOOKS SO FAMILIAR 06:48:14 The dithered Netscape screen and all. 06:50:08 My first non-DE WM was IceWM, I think. 06:50:33 Still have a soft spot for IceWM, TBH. 06:51:07 I think I went with fvwm95 not because of some conscious choice, but because it was installed I-think-almost-by-default by the Slackware 7-point-something. 06:51:50 Later on Enlightenment was an order of magnitude prettier, but ran too slow on my hardware to really be usable. I can't quite recall what I was using at that point instead. 06:52:20 Window Maker, I think. 06:52:24 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:52:33 Yes, that. 07:13:32 -!- elliott has joined. 07:34:11 oh dear, the Lion installer repartitions the disk 07:34:18 this could get messy 07:35:32 what is this 07:35:44 oh mac 07:36:04 yes, im anticipating a horrific upgrade process 07:36:04 I forgot about their cat thing 07:36:07 lol 07:36:08 -!- NihilistDandy has joined. 07:36:24 in the meantime I'm entertaining myself by reading the Ars Technica review: "If you can imagine three dials labeled "color," "contrast," and "contour," Apple has been turning them down slowly for years. Lion accelerates that process." 07:36:36 more color, contrast and contour, only twenty-nine dollars 07:36:40 -!- Nihilist1andy has joined. 07:36:41 jobs hath spoken 07:37:28 "The new look is not a radical departure—everything hasn't gone jet black and grown fur, for example" this review is just gonna be a list of the ways in which apple are going to let me down with this upgrade 07:37:50 Which upgrade? 07:37:50 NihilistDandy: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 07:38:02 NihilistDandy: Jobs OS Lion 07:38:31 I rather like it. Then again, I've been playing with it since Dev 07:38:31 I'm on the less pleasant OS partition of my computer 07:38:37 (the one that isn't Linux) 07:39:03 @tell Phantom_Hoover I'm so proud of my meta-dwarf 07:39:03 Consider it noted. 07:39:28 "Finally, there's Apple's budding love affair with a particular linen texture." 07:39:36 tell me more 07:40:21 About the linen texture? 07:40:33 "Though I can assure you that Lion comes with more than eight applications, you wouldn't know it from looking at this screenshot." but it has chess and a dictionary, why would i need anything else.................. 07:40:37 It's just this gray thing on the login screen 07:40:44 why cna't there be only eight applications............... 07:40:48 NihilistDandy: im not talking to you :P 07:40:57 i'm having an imagined dialogue with sirawhatever 07:41:03 lol 07:41:23 "Apple isn't (yet) asking us to start poking our fingers at our Mac's screen" more disappointments 07:41:30 * elliott attacks his screen a few times in protest 07:42:03 "Lion further cements the dominance of touch by making all touch-based scrolling work like it does on a touchscreen." 07:42:14 "just rebooted into my other OS, time to learn how to scroll again" 07:42:29 elliott: You can shut that off 07:42:35 so I learned next paragraph 07:42:40 Ah 07:43:02 I'm not particularly tied to my scrolling direction. I go both ways, as the kids say 07:44:22 I wonder how you pirate the retail Lion, a .dmg with the installer .app in it? 07:44:29 (Not that I would ever commit such an abhorrent crime, of course.) 07:46:27 elliott: I have a pirated copy 07:46:31 But I also bought it 07:46:46 Shock! 07:46:52 You should be hung. 07:46:55 JUST LIKE FUCKING MINECRAFT 07:47:28 I've also decided I'm going to write a MIPS interpreter in Haskell 07:48:02 "Interpreter" :-D 07:48:10 Finally, formal semantics for MIPS 07:48:55 s/interpreter/simulator/ 07:48:59 I'm a touch drunk 07:49:26 Like spim, but in Haskell 07:49:37 I just need to come up with a pun suitable for hackage 07:49:39 I might have a go at it, too 07:49:43 Sounds like "fun" 07:50:05 NihilistDandy: Are you going to emulate a system, or just have the simulator provide its own syscalls a la JSMIPS? 07:50:07 Build an i386 CPU in Minecraft. 07:50:12 I'm gonna call mine "Elliottcraft" 07:50:57 elliott: Not sure, yet, but knowing me it could easily be the former 07:51:04 NihilistDandy: Gross :) 07:51:36 No one ever had fun staying clean 07:51:46 that is one hideous window-opening animation 07:53:24 http://i.imgur.com/RytKT.png <-- also something has gone terribly wrong with the player controls 07:53:38 Infinity:0NaN:0NaN is a good film length 07:53:49 Caption hilarity 07:54:30 god this review really is nineteen pages isn't it 07:54:55 Is it Ars Technica? 07:55:06 yes 07:55:10 Knew it 07:55:35 link me please 07:55:49 http://arstechnica.com/apple/reviews/2011/07/mac-os-x-10-7.ars 07:55:57 im reading it more out of principle than anything 07:57:22 http://static.arstechnica.net/2011/07/04/lion/ical-big.png suddenly i am puking 07:57:28 how did this happen 07:57:49 is that... wood grain? 07:57:50 I know, right? 07:57:55 Look at Address Book 07:57:58 wait no 07:58:05 it's... leather? or something 07:58:06 Patashu: leather 07:58:08 fucking leather 07:58:12 its a fucking leather diary thing 07:58:13 jesus christ 07:58:17 the first OS that vegans can't use 07:58:25 apple what are you DOING 07:58:30 i thought brushed metal was bad 07:58:45 srsly 07:58:55 I hope there's a skinning system on the way 07:58:59 this reminds me of the first few versions where the pinstripes were like 07:59:02 really dark 07:59:04 Or I just have to go an change the damn textures myself 07:59:09 *and 07:59:11 and so you couldn't read any window title or toolbar icon or anything 07:59:19 NihilistDandy: remember UNO? 07:59:39 Maybe? 07:59:49 http://gui.interacto.net/ 07:59:53 Oh, yeah 08:00:02 Now I've remembered it 08:00:13 i love how there was an application designed solely to stop the system having like ten wildly different themes 08:00:50 :D 08:01:18 Apple needs to stop hiring hipsters, or marketing to hipsters, or whatever caused this 08:01:32 Stop raping puppies 08:01:33 i love how leopard was like, fuck this, we're using exactly one theme from now on 08:01:37 then the itunes team went 08:01:43 "... hi we have a new theme :D :D :D :D :D :D" 08:01:56 and nobody shot them for some reason??? 08:02:00 i hate this os 08:02:10 why do you use it then 08:02:14 At least iTunes is finally 64-bit. 08:02:23 Patashu: i don't 08:02:24 i use linux 08:02:34 i boot into os x only when i need to use something that doesn't run on linux, or when i need to upgrade it 08:02:54 NihilistDandy: woo, now _there's_ a change that will have no conceivable effect on me whatsoever 08:02:58 hmm, wait, so they ported it to Cocoa? 08:03:04 Yeah 08:03:16 does it still have the fucking window management buttons vertically 08:03:20 Still pretty horrendous 08:03:30 because if it does 08:03:36 And no, the buttons are back to a sensible horizontal 08:03:36 i think i'll still avoid opening it for my sanity 08:03:40 oh good 08:03:45 does it... 08:03:48 ummm 08:03:49 like 08:03:51 what's the catch 08:04:01 It's actually unified fairly well, as they say 08:04:07 http://static.arstechnica.net/2011/07/04/lion/address-book.png 08:04:07 It's just also boring 08:04:09 oh my god 08:04:10 im actually laughing 08:04:19 Didn't I tell you? 08:04:27 yes but 08:04:30 i didnt know it would be that bad 08:04:38 I know 08:04:49 I mean, many iPad owners don't know what a book is 08:04:56 How will they know how to parse this design? 08:05:12 clicking that address book screenshot opens this: http://static.arstechnica.net/2011/07/04/lion/dangerous.html 08:05:41 :/ 08:05:53 "The three-pane view (groups → people → detail) is gone, presumably because a book can't show three pages at once." 08:06:11 Triptych 08:06:41 :DD 08:06:45 best address book format 08:07:07 on iCal, in March: "That pic has got to be fake, it's waaaaaay to different to the shots/video of DP1." 08:07:39 :D 08:07:44 "causes the current desktop picture to recede slightly into the center of the screen, revealing behind it our old friend the linen pattern." 08:07:46 i love you, linen pattern 08:09:42 "Holding down the option key makes all the icons sprout close widgets as they start to wiggle." 08:09:55 oh more linen. hi linen 08:12:33 -!- Nihilist1andy has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 08:12:44 monqy: oh that RDP 08:12:58 -!- Nihilist1andy has joined. 08:13:10 yes that rdp 08:13:35 And the main benefit to the iTunes 64 bit nonsense is that it stops me having a fit every time I look at System Monitor 08:13:49 monqy: dmbarbour rdp reactive demand programming thing 08:13:56 -!- NihilistDandy has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 08:13:59 elliott: I forget everything else about it 08:14:18 Nihilist1andy: I have a fit when I look at System Monitor because when I do that it means I'm trying to kill something that's about to hang the system because my OS sucks 08:14:56 http://static.arstechnica.net/2011/07/04/lion/save-a-version.png 08:15:04 THEY STOLE LEADEN'S CORE FEATURE 08:15:08 BASTARDS 08:15:15 I just use it to watch ghc blow up when I do odd things 08:15:21 -!- NihilistDandy has joined. 08:15:26 -!- Taneb has joined. 08:15:45 Hello! 08:15:48 -!- Nihilist2andy has joined. 08:16:30 Nihilist1andy: im glad that the review is basically advocating orthogonal persistence for an entire chapter 08:16:36 maybe i'll just throw it at people to convince them 08:17:13 I'm glad that Ars published a new version of War and Peace that's a little more Cupertino-flavored 08:17:25 :D 08:17:41 Nihilist1andy: this is shorter than the average length i think 08:17:47 the last one was over twenty pages 08:17:53 But about a fucking OS update? 08:18:09 Does Whiny Wombat get this kind of treatment? 08:18:53 Whiny Wombat? 08:18:58 "the OS may terminate applications that are not in use in order to reclaim resources—primarily memory, but also things like file descriptors, CPU cycles, and processes." yess keep arguing for things i've been arguing for for years 08:19:01 Are you one of them time travelling ubuntu users? 08:19:07 WHO'S THE CRACKPOT NOW ASSHOLES........................... 08:19:51 Nihilist1andy: Ubuntu users get OMG! Ubuntu!... this is one of the few superior points of OS X 08:19:58 Apparently according to Canadian law, in case of a riot the sheriff or mayor is required to go there if they have received notice, and tell them that the queen has authorized them to be imprisoned for life. However, the punishment for a riot is listed as only two years. Are they trying to confuse everyone? 08:20:44 Taneb: THERE'S STILL TIME 08:20:46 Them Canadians don't listen to the Queen much 08:20:50 -!- Nihilist4andy has joined. 08:20:53 They're more Rolling Stones fans 08:21:52 -!- Nihilist1andy has left ("http://haskell.org"). 08:22:04 -!- Nihilist1andy has joined. 08:22:13 What the hell, client :/ 08:22:14 Nihilist1andy: stop reproducing 08:22:16 brb 08:22:30 -!- Nihilist1andy has quit (Quit: leaving). 08:22:30 -!- NihilistDandy has quit (Quit: leaving). 08:22:30 -!- Nihilist4andy has quit (Client Quit). 08:22:57 -!- NihilistDandy has joined. 08:22:58 -!- Nihilist2andy has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 08:23:40 Is it just me, yet? 08:23:47 Christ on sale 08:24:08 My irssi bouncer and my head client appear to have been fighting after my connection died, there 08:24:28 And they're usually such a nice couple 08:25:01 "The previous release of Mac OS X focused on internal changes. My review did the same, covering compiler features, programming language extensions, new libraries, and other details that were mostly invisible to end-users." <-- i remember that, it was a nice review 08:25:10 like he talked about clang for at least a chapter 08:25:23 to an audience the vast majority of which has probably never written a single line of code in their life 08:26:13 So it's like reddit, only it's just a single voice 08:26:54 "Lion includes a trusted daemon process called Powerbox (pboxd) whose job is to present and control open/save dialog boxes on behalf of sandboxed applications." 08:27:06 i sure wish os x didn't suck or i'd be happy that someone is finally listening to good ideas 08:27:17 "Oh, and in case it doesn't go without saying, all sandboxed applications must be signed." 08:27:18 that's a good idea 08:27:19 s i g h 08:27:21 lol 08:28:03 ... *Why* would you require sandboxed applications to be signed, exactly? 08:28:17 Surely, surely sandboxing makes that even *less* useful. 08:28:21 So you can get developer's autographs? 08:28:23 because jobs must controleverything [insert picture of steve jobs with horns] 08:28:36 Ah, right, Jobs thinks the iPhone is the future of computing. 08:28:40 You know what's fun? 08:28:49 Asking random people for their autographs 08:29:03 When, at *best*, it's the future of small-device touchscreen UIs. 08:29:08 you're way too social, get out 08:29:32 pikhq: the iPhone, probably not; the iPad... well, it's closer than current desktop PCs 08:29:46 elliott: I did say "at best". 08:29:46 tthe future is a bad place 08:29:51 "Apple has decreed that all applications submitted to the Mac App Store must be sandboxed, starting in November." 08:29:52 oh 08:30:11 The only way to find out what the future's like is to go there 08:30:14 pikhq: I meant re computing 08:30:42 "What a developer can do instead is isolate the video decoding task in its own process with severely reduced privileges. A process that's decoding video probably doesn't need any access to the file system, the network, the built-in camera and microphone, and so on. It just needs to accept a stream of bytes from its parent process (which, in turn, probably used Powerbox to gain the ability to read those bytes from disk in the first pla 08:30:43 ce) and return a stream of decoded bytes. Beyond this simple connection to its parent, the decoder can be completely walled off from the rest of the system." 08:30:43 SOUNDS 08:30:44 LIKE 08:30:46 A 08:30:48 PURE 08:30:49 elliott: Ah. Yeah, the iPad is probably *closer*, but it feels almost like for every step forward they made a step back. 08:30:50 FUNCTION 08:30:52 TO 08:30:54 ME 08:30:58 FUCKIN' FUNCTIONAL SUPERIORITY SLAM DUNK 08:31:04 SHAZAAAAAAAAAAAM 08:31:12 * elliott plays air guitar 08:31:27 Is it lambda-shaped? 08:31:35 oh ym god 08:31:36 "Hmm. Some amount of orthogonal persistence... But you don't own the machine!" 08:31:45 i never knew i needed a lambda shaped electric guitar in my life until now 08:31:48 NihilistDandy 08:31:51 NihilistDandy i am going to start a band 08:31:53 and 08:31:54 lambda 08:31:54 shaped 08:31:55 guitars 08:31:57 only 08:31:57 YES 08:31:59 YES 08:32:03 YES 08:32:05 "Nice UI, but YOU NO GET COMPILER" 08:32:15 elliott: Is it just me, or have you not been sleeping again? 08:32:24 I'll bring the ellipses shaped drumkit 08:32:50 fizzie: I've not been awake for very long. 08:32:59 Less than fifteen hours, that's for certain. 08:33:06 I'm just this cool all the time. 08:33:14 Must be. 08:33:16 NihilistDandy: OK DO YOU WANT TO JOIN. 08:33:24 I'M SO FUCKING IN 08:33:27 You need to play an instrument shaped like some kind of ... thing. 08:33:43 Tambourines look like composition 08:33:44 Monadic bind xylophone???? 08:33:49 Also good 08:34:12 Identity function microphone? 08:34:12 Like, two lines of keys oriented vertically going diagonally that meet and then go horizontally 08:34:18 <$> What instruments look like this? 08:34:21 Except split into two when they meet I guess 08:34:22 ZIthers? 08:34:29 NihilistDandy: A... symmetrical triangle? 08:34:49 <=> Can this be made into an instrument 08:34:56 KEYTAR 08:35:12 We're called the Knights of the Lambda Calculus, no arguments. 08:35:20 I guess the real Knights might sue us but who cares. 08:35:55 Alternatively, theremin built into a frame with some shape 08:36:10 Why would they sue? 08:36:18 For using their name :-P 08:36:19 Would we not rock them purely and without side effects? 08:36:30 oh my god this is the best worst thing 08:36:46 We'll have a song called 08:37:12 @type curry . curry . uncurry 08:37:13 forall a b b1 c. ((a, b) -> b1 -> c) -> a -> b -> b1 -> c 08:37:15 That 08:37:25 Clearly we have to cover http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM1Zb3xmvMc. 08:37:39 Don't ask me Y 08:38:12 Genre: Funktional 08:38:13 This is so bad 08:38:14 We have to stop 08:38:35 NO 08:38:47 Also, related videos made me a pedophile :/ 08:38:48 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLLDWw7r3nQ&feature=related 08:38:59 I thought she was gonna talk about parentheses 08:39:02 BUT NO 08:39:10 It is imperative that you listen to my band 08:39:36 Patashu: WE ARE BUSY CONSTRUCTING A NEWTYPE OF AWESOME 08:40:02 :D 08:40:17 A Newtype of Science. 08:40:43 Just "Dance" 08:40:58 That will be our single 08:41:11 Gotta get them out of their ergonomic desk chairs 08:41:47 As soon as you sellouts play at RailsConf I'm quitting. 08:42:21 The first track on the album should be called Cons 08:42:41 lol 08:42:54 @type uncurry. curry 08:42:54 forall a b c. ((a, b) -> c) -> (a, b) -> c 08:43:08 elliott: The headlines will read "eta reduction" as our record sales climb 08:43:19 NihilistDandy: idgi 08:44:07 I equate lambda expressions with obscurity, for this metaphor 08:44:11 heh 08:44:29 Slightly more sense 08:44:34 Not much, though 08:44:47 oh my god 08:44:55 he's explaining how you can't do precise garbage collection for C 08:45:02 because of the untypedness of memory 08:45:09 my hero 08:45:16 educate the masses....educate..... 08:45:31 Who is? 08:46:05 siracusa, the review-writer 08:47:10 Ah 08:47:32 "To ensure that ARC can do what it's designed to do in a correct manner, a few additional language restrictions have been added. Most of them are esoteric, existing on the boundaries between Objective-C and plain C code (e.g., C structs and unions are not allowed to contain references to Objective-C objects)." 08:47:35 huh 08:47:46 now the reverse just has to happen and they'll have two entirely separate data models :D 08:47:59 oh it's per-compilation-unit 08:49:33 Lol 08:49:37 The address book in lion is literally a book 08:49:39 THANKS 08:50:02 Patashu: welcome to five pages up :P 08:51:01 At least the videoconferencing app doesn't look like a phone. (Cf. http://homepage.mac.com/bradster/iarchitect/phone.htm ) 08:53:31 "and to top it off, normal Objective-C message sending is 33 percent faster." 08:53:38 how have they not eked every last bit of performance out of that code path yet? 08:53:46 I know it involves looking up a string in a hash table, but c'mon... 08:53:56 And the CD player probably doesn't look like http://homepage.mac.com/bradster/iarchitect/realcd.htm either; I've forgotten what it looks like if you try to play an audio CD in OS X. 08:54:25 fizzie: iTunes 08:54:44 So meh 08:54:52 fizzie: I note that QuickTime four is also on that site :-P 08:55:04 "Furthermore, ARC does very little to address the other pillar of modern, high-level programming: memory safety." 08:55:12 i wonder if most people reading this review just skip this section 08:57:01 ARC? 08:57:42 the only arc I know is that lisp dialect paul graham's was it whatever happened to that 08:57:42 monqy: automatic reference counting 08:57:44 ah 08:57:47 and it sucked 08:57:53 it continues to suck to the present day 08:57:55 (pg's that is) 08:58:13 yeah I never really understood the point 08:58:42 "When searching for unused nodes in a b-tree file, Apple's HFS+ implementation processes the data 16 bits at a time." 08:58:46 i cant believe os x still uses hfs+ 08:58:48 its amazing 08:58:57 "All HFS+ file system metadata read from the disk must be byte swapped because it's stored in big-endian form." 08:59:11 really, apple? 08:59:18 (ok ok so actually [dunno how to type an at symbol without number keys on os x] has this too) 08:59:21 Is wirefunge going to use the entire of Unicode? 08:59:28 (because the on-disk format has to be platform-independent) 08:59:40 nah 08:59:44 I can't think of enough uses anyway 08:59:48 "File system metadata structures in HFS+ have global locks. Only one process can update the file system at a time" 08:59:49 wow 09:00:05 though being able to embed a circuit in one cell and have it link to another file that implements the circuit wolud be nice 09:00:51 "Some of those features were an easy fit, but others were very difficult to add to the file system without breaking backwards compatibility. One particularly scary example is the implementation of hard links on HFS+. To keep track of hard links, HFS+ creates a separate file for each hard link inside a hidden directory at the root level of the volume. Hidden directories are kind of creepy to begin with, but the real scare comes when yo 09:00:51 u remember that Time Machine is implemented using hard links to avoid unnecessary data duplication. 09:00:51 Listing the contents of this hidden directory (named "HFS+ Private Data", but with a bunch of non-printing characters preceding the "H") on my Time Machine backup volume reveals that it contains 573,127 files. B-trees or no b-trees, over half a million files in a single directory makes me nervous." 09:00:53 oh apple 09:02:11 elliott, *ouch* 09:03:14 "The biggest is the introduction of Apple's first real crack at creating a logical volume manager: Core Storage." 09:03:16 oh boy 09:03:45 "At the very top level is the Logical Volume Group, which may contain one or more Physical Volumes. A Physical Volume provides storage; it may be a single physical disk, a disk image file, or even a RAID device. A Logical Volume Group exports zero or more Logical Volume Families. A Logical Volume Family contains one or more Logical Volumes, each of which presents a blank canvas onto which—finally!—a volume format like HFS+ may res 09:03:45 ide." 09:03:48 (because the on-disk format has to be platform-independent) <-- presumably this is the case for ext4 and so on too on some platforms 09:03:53 Vorpal: isn't this just lvm terminology lifted directly :D 09:04:06 Vorpal: also, yeah, but for [at] it's more pronounced 09:04:17 Vorpal: because, e.g. every integer, pointer, in every stored object, must be in one format 09:04:19 on all platforms 09:04:37 whereas file content can be whatever on a (big|little|whichever it is)-endian ext platform 09:04:42 elliott, I think apple added "logical volume families" step 09:05:06 elliott, LVM is just "volume group made out of physical volumes, from those volume groups you allocate logical volumes" 09:05:16 apple has at least one extra step of indirection there 09:05:17 "Lion's FileVault doesn't just encrypt users' home directories, and it doesn't use encrypted disk image files. Instead, it's Apple's implementation of whole disk encryption. This means that every byte of data that makes up the volume is encrypted. Furthermore, this encryption is completely transparent to all software (including the implementation of HFS+ itself) because it takes place at a layer above the volume format—a layer that 09:05:17 application software does not see at all." 09:05:18 good 09:06:13 http://static.arstechnica.net/2011/07/04/lion/file-vault-recovery-key.png 09:06:14 http://static.arstechnica.net/2011/07/04/lion/file-vault-apple-recovery-key.png 09:06:15 cool 09:06:25 so it constructs a private key where the password is the combination of the questions and answers, I guess 09:06:29 then encrypts the key with it 09:06:34 and throws away the questions and answers 09:06:50 Is FileVault finally unshitty enough to actually use is the question 09:07:07 elliott, ugh, fixed easy security questions suck 09:07:15 Vorpal: oh, agreed 09:07:19 Vorpal: I'm just talking about the mechanism 09:07:24 NihilistDandy: It's entirely reimplemented, so yes 09:07:29 Shweet 09:07:33 elliott, well they have fixed stupidly easy security questions there... 09:07:34 NihilistDandy: There can't be any compatibility problems because it's transparent 09:07:50 elliott, what algorithm does filevault use on the disk 09:07:51 Finally I don't have to use PGP, anymore 09:08:01 Vorpal: I'm talking about the mechanism by which Apple prevents themselves from being able to have your decryption key 09:08:03 And I don't know 09:08:18 Also :D at the Clarus reference in that screenshot 09:08:23 AES 09:08:26 By the way 09:08:27 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogcow for those not in the know) 09:08:41 NihilistDandy, that is not very specific 09:08:57 Not sure about the keys, themselves 09:08:59 Hang on 09:09:00 NihilistDandy, aes-cbc-essiv? 09:09:07 "Like any talented dog, it can do flips. Like any talented cow, it can do precision bitmap alignment." so good 09:09:20 NihilistDandy, I mean I can query my disk under linux and get that it uses aes-cbc-essiv:sha256 on my laptop 09:09:29 (device-mapper, crypsetup) 09:09:43 Oh, I haven't set it up, yet 09:09:48 cryptsetup* 09:09:54 So I couldn't do such a query even if I knew how 09:10:19 Vorpal: please don't do your standard "LOL [PIECE OF NON-OPEN SOFTWARE] ISN'T OPEN HOW WEIRD" routine :P 09:10:20 NihilistDandy, I wouldn't trust it if apple doesn't tell what mode they use aes in 09:10:31 I'll see if I can find out 09:10:43 Vorpal: You wouldn't trust OS X for anything in a million years, so that statement is misleading. 09:10:46 elliott, while I doubt they would use AES in counter mode, they should specify what mode they use 09:10:54 OK, or just keep trolling. 09:11:01 http://arstechnica.com/apple/reviews/2011/07/mac-os-x-10-7.ars/13 09:11:04 elliott, for cryptography it is very important to be open, so people can trust you 09:11:05 Vorpal: Grep /CoreStorage logical volume groups (1 found)/ and shut up 09:11:09 It shows the mode 09:11:27 ah, xts 09:13:23 Is this good news? 09:13:42 It looks fancy :-P 09:13:43 OpenBSD uses it 09:13:53 NihilistDandy, complicated, depends on how they do the key as far as I understood it. Which I don't see any info about ther 09:13:55 there* 09:14:03 Haha, did he really just paste a SQLite schema into one of the most widely-read OS X reviews on the internet 09:14:15 So awesome 09:14:15 Where? 09:14:19 http://arstechnica.com/apple/reviews/2011/07/mac-os-x-10-7.ars/14 09:15:01 He had to pad the article 09:15:29 This Mozilla technology evangelist guy (who's talking about doing multimeeediatic stuff in the interwebs; this is one of the Assembly 2011 seminar things) says "which is particularly exciting" of every sort of technology he's presenting. 09:15:44 I guess if your job title is "technology evangelist" you sort of have to be excited about everything. 09:16:13 especially teen ministers 09:17:44 You aren't excited about teen ministers? 09:17:59 They're particularly interesting 09:19:11 "Imagine taking a dish out of the dishwasher and then having it start flopping around like a fish in your hand." 09:19:15 Mostly it's just about WebGL. 09:20:06 Patashu: can I make a feature request for Wirefunge? 09:20:26 NihilistDandy: Does the Finder really open in All My Files by default rather than the home directory? 09:20:29 That's interesting. 09:20:43 It's a little unnerving 09:20:44 elliott, I can't believe apple is using sqlite for any sort of largish db 09:20:49 But you get used to it 09:20:53 Or you shut it off 09:20:58 Vorpal: Why? 09:21:09 They use sqlite for every damn thing 09:21:11 elliott, because sqlite scales badly in my experience 09:21:13 SQLite is incredibly well-written and I haven't heard anything concrete about it scaling badly. 09:21:28 "in my experience" is not really worth much, I doubt you've done a tenth of the testing they have :) 09:21:35 elliott, okay, lets say it doesn't scale as good as postgre then 09:21:42 Obviously it doesn't work well in multiple-user situations but that's irrelevant here 09:21:45 Vorpal: So? 09:21:50 hm 09:22:09 Vorpal: That's RAM and CPU being used all the time. 09:22:14 I think the server tools come with postgres now instead of MySQL 09:22:19 elliott, anyway computers are multi-user. Even if there is only one interactive human user, there are many daemons 09:22:22 For a probably unnoticeable performance increase. 09:22:28 Vorpal: They're not causing revisions to be made 09:22:32 ah 09:22:35 That's an act a human does by definition 09:22:39 (In OS X) 09:23:08 10:18 elliott: "Imagine taking a dish out of the dishwasher and then having it start flopping around like a fish in your hand." 09:23:10 this is a quote from the review btw 09:24:08 "Aesthetically speaking, the Finder, like the rest of Lion, has been visited by the color vampire." 09:24:12 scarry,,,, 09:24:44 I vant to suck your blue~ 09:25:28 the redesigned Mail looks nice 09:25:31 and finally has conversations 09:26:30 "Or rather, look at how much of the surrounding interface isn't there." Look how much code I'm NOT writing! 09:26:34 It is actually very nice 09:26:41 (Apologies if you get the reference.) 09:27:08 Sounds like the Agda lament 09:27:30 Hmm? Link? 09:27:43 I was referring to the insufferable Rails screencast of two-thousand-and-five yore. 09:27:58 NihilistDandy: Also, is that accordion effect as annoying as it looks? 09:28:04 I mean that's what Agda people say when they switch from Haskell :D 09:28:21 Which accordion effect? 09:28:33 If you're writing less code in Agda than in Haskell... then you were doing horrible things to Haskell. :p 09:28:36 *because no one ever writes any Agda, they just talk about it 09:28:39 NihilistDandy: On expanding quotes in Mail 09:28:40 And heh 09:28:50 Hmm, wait, does Mail actually support gmail-style conversations now? 09:28:51 I can't tell 09:29:24 elliott: Re accordion, it's not annoying so much as twee 09:29:31 Re conversations, yes. 09:29:40 Twee is a synonym for annoying :P 09:29:52 Only in some circles 09:29:52 Oh thank god, the Downloads window is gone. 09:30:18 elliott: Right, but god help you if you want to look at your downloads without an entire Safari window open 09:30:29 When do you ever not have an entire Safari window open 09:30:32 If you're a Safari user 09:30:46 Often 09:31:05 Usually when I'm done 09:31:06 Oh sweet, Terminal supports full-screen mode; now everybody can forget that the rest of the OS exists 09:31:33 I mentioned that ages ago 09:31:46 It's the best part, really 09:32:13 Yay, they've moved around the System Preferences icons again 09:32:17 I'd almost had them memorised 09:33:31 elliott, doesn't support text mode? 09:33:38 ? 09:33:51 Why full screen terminal instead of just not starting up the GUI. =p 09:33:57 http://static.arstechnica.net/2011/07/04/lion/system-preferences-time-zone.png Well that's an ugly square 09:33:59 Lymee: You can do that 09:34:05 Lymee: Well, text editing, for one :-P 09:34:10 NihilistDandy: You have to start in single-user mode, though 09:34:19 elliott: Or log in with >console 09:34:20 And then work upwards 09:34:25 NihilistDandy: Eh? 09:34:31 Fo to the login screen 09:34:32 http://static.arstechnica.net/2011/07/04/lion/auto-correction.png 09:34:35 Use the name >console 09:34:38 * elliott taps screen impatiently 09:34:45 IT ISN;T WORKING/ 09:35:00 NihilistDandy: That sounds like a nice security hole 09:35:01 Autocorrect is awesome and slightly unsettling 09:35:11 elliott: You still have to log in with an account 09:35:18 It's safer than that super user nonsense 09:35:21 Ah 09:35:28 s/super user/single user/? 09:35:34 Yes 09:35:42 I disabled it months ago 09:35:45 http://static.arstechnica.net/2011/07/04/lion/lock-screen-big.png Well, that's certainly the prettiest lock screen I've seen today 09:35:47 Years, even 09:35:51 Which isn't saying much 09:36:09 "FACE WITH NO GOOD GESTURE (U+1F645); MOON VIEWING CEREMONY (U+1F391); PILE OF POO (U+1F4A9)" <-- good image caption 09:36:28 Oh my god wait. 09:36:39 NihilistDandy: Do the emojis work in any application that displays Unicode text via the usual mechanisms? 09:36:44 Can you send them OVER IRC?? 09:36:50 Maybe 09:36:50 Do it now, send us a pile of poo. 09:36:53 Do it. 09:36:54 It'd be worth a shot 09:36:56 Go go go 09:37:00 THE WORLD IS WAITING 09:37:00 Okay, lemme look 09:37:06 http://static.arstechnica.net/2011/07/04/lion/emoji.png 09:37:06 HTH 09:37:20 http://static.arstechnica.net/2011/07/04/lion/terminal-blur.png Caption: "I want to know what's behind my terminal window, but I don't want to know every detail." 09:37:22 also good caption 09:37:36 "Just... gimme a VAGUE IDEA of what's behind here." 09:37:47 Ubuntu 11.10's swapping from GDM to LightDM for the login screen; wonder if it's really going to look any different. 09:37:52 "Terminal also—finally—supports 256 text colors with its new xterm-256color terminal type." Man, it still hasn't had them? 09:37:54 💩 09:37:56 Sent 09:38:01 NihilistDandy: Nice square 09:38:04 NihilistDandy: Work for you? 09:38:06 Yep 09:38:10 fizzie: "LightDM is a cross-desktop display manager that aims is to be the standard display manager for the X.org X server." 09:38:17 fizzie: Oh, freedesktop.org; does your hubris know no bounds? 09:38:32 fizzie: i'm fknthrilled for 11.10 09:38:34 Well of course they "aim" to be the standard everything of everything. 09:38:34 So you *can* send them over IRC 09:38:35 They could release literally any piece of software and say it should be the standard forever. 09:38:40 That was the poo, by the way 09:39:00 "fknthrilled": experts say, not strictly a word. 09:39:10 [01F4A5] (or something) as rendered by XChat. 09:39:22 innovation is often made by amateurs. 09:39:23 fkn- is totally a prefix 09:39:37 (At least it manages to put non-BMP characters in a bigger-than-four-digits box.) 09:39:43 Which amateur is innovating again 09:39:44 EXPERTS IN ARGUMENT. 09:39:51 Oh 09:39:54 You're being tedious 09:39:55 I see 09:40:07 as opposed to you being a breeze, yeah. 09:40:08 fizzie: That sort of looks like a pile of poo. 09:40:09 Does Font Book still suck according to the article? 09:40:28 I'm going to call PINs Personal PIN Numbers that Identify you 09:40:31 http://static.arstechnica.net/2011/07/04/lion/system-info-overview.png Well, umm, that's certainly a pretty System Profiler, I guess 09:40:50 http://static.arstechnica.net/2011/07/04/lion/system-info-storage.png Not sure what inspired that colour scheme 09:41:13 very coloure 09:41:15 Can't imagine~ 09:41:32 elliott: If you hit the case with a hammer, does it show the resulting bump in that System Profiler picture? 09:41:38 More good captioning: "Unfilled RAM slots are sinful. I am ashamed." 09:41:48 fizzie: Yes. (If we do not test it, we can continue to believe.) 09:42:10 "Want an eBook or PDF copy? Support Ars and it's yours." 09:42:16 Yes, I definitely want an eBook copy of this review. 09:42:20 I will enjoy it time and time again. 09:42:22 It is a classic. 09:42:44 I WILL PASS THIS FILE ONTO MY GRANDCHILDREN WHEN THEY ARE OLD ENOUGH 09:43:58 *ON TO 09:44:20 unto 09:44:59 "Mainstream reviews of software and hardware alike spend far less time pondering technical specifications and implementation details than they did only a few years ago." 09:45:06 I guess I'm definitely not reading a mainstream review, then 09:45:13 "This phenomenon extends even to the geekiest among us, those who didn't just skip to the conclusion of this review but actually read the entire thing." 09:45:16 Oops, I'm being branded. 09:45:27 Oh, it's finally over. 09:46:22 NihilistDandy: Hahaha, it really forces you to prove you know how to scroll in the new way before letting you in 09:46:27 That's amazing 09:46:41 "Okay, got i-" "I DON'T BELIEVE YOU. SCROLL FOR ME, CHILD." 09:46:41 lol 09:47:02 `addquote "Okay, got i-" "I DON'T BELIEVE YOU. SCROLL FOR ME, CHILD." 09:47:06 564) "Okay, got i-" "I DON'T BELIEVE YOU. SCROLL FOR ME, CHILD." 09:47:09 Better out of context 09:47:33 what's this new scrolling thing is it good 09:47:45 monqy: Aviator controls 09:47:51 im aviate 09:47:55 hlep i dont'e know aht that is helep 09:48:01 Plane 09:48:04 *s 09:48:05 http://static.arstechnica.net/2011/07/18/lion_finder_airdrop-4e24a31-intro.png THE POWERFUL SPHERE OF HARRIET 09:48:09 Go up to go down 09:48:12 monqy: up is down down is up 09:48:18 true is false,,,,,, two is nine,,,, 09:48:21 rite is rong,,, 09:48:27 just is injust,,, 09:48:28 why woudle thye do thate 09:48:29 x is unx,,,,, 09:48:32 elliott: AirDrop sadly doesn't work on mine 09:48:37 Too old 09:48:56 NihilistDandy: mine was new but then they came out with a new model seven months later,,,,, assholes, 09:49:37 are scrollbares inverted tooe 09:49:52 ill invert ur scrollbar . com 09:51:24 Apparently paintball games are technically illegal in Canada. Does anyone care? 09:52:09 paintballers 09:52:11 paintball always makes me think 09:52:14 extreme paintbrawl 09:52:18 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=li5mXnHyg9w 09:52:36 best music best game 09:52:40 -!- FireFly has joined. 09:53:05 "tabs please?" "Are you serious? Drag your fingers across the frets and cluck like a chicken." 09:53:17 http://static.arstechnica.net/2011/07/18/lion_finder_airdrop-4e24a31-intro.png THE POWERFUL SPHERE OF HARRIET <-- ad-hoc wlan? or bluetooth? 09:53:28 Vorpal: radiant sun energy 09:53:33 Vorpal: Ad hoc 09:53:37 (visualised by bands of holiness) 09:53:38 NihilistDandy, wlan or bluetooth 09:53:45 wlan 09:53:48 ah 09:53:53 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_Paintbrawl 09:53:54 wow 09:53:57 monqy: is it as good as it looks 09:54:01 NihilistDandy, then any card supporting ad-hoc should work 09:54:09 Vorpal: It doesn't. 09:54:17 I don't remember the specifics of why 09:54:19 NihilistDandy, but it would also disconnect you from any network you were currently connected to 09:54:24 elliott: confession time i have never played extreme paintbrawl 09:54:33 monqy: :( 09:54:35 Vorpal: Oh, I can do standard ad-hoc stuff 09:54:45 AirDrop operates differently, apparently 09:54:50 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 09:54:51 Though similarly, as well :| 09:54:52 "Oh my god. 09:54:53 I now have the most glorious mental image of a paintball fight taking place in a barnyard with Frosty the Snowman systematically violating all the animals with akimbo electric banjos, and all of this is in a Benny Hill-style fast-forwarded scene with several dancing hillbillies and a single Mariachi in the background. 09:54:53 I am sincerely disappointed that I cannot convey this image through this text box. It's fucking fantastic. Probably make a great mural." 09:54:57 hi Phantom_Hoover 09:55:24 AirDrop operates differently, apparently <-- ouch, non-standard? 09:55:33 Let me look it up 09:56:06 NihilistDandy, what does it let you do? share files? 09:56:10 Vorpal: Radiant sun orbs are very standard 09:56:14 Yeah, basically 09:56:27 http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/11/03/10/inside_mac_os_x_10_7_lion_airdrop_local_file_sharing.html 09:56:38 NihilistDandy: I wonder how long until the zoom button on windows disappears 09:56:49 It does a pretty bad job of automatically sizing things 09:56:57 And with the magic wonder full-screen zoom button thing... 09:57:00 Only a matter of time 09:57:04 Exactly 09:57:36 I guess the zoom button will take its place, because just having two capsules on the left is really weird... except that that destroys the fact that the button to undo it is in the same place 09:57:45 And also undoes any conditioning of users 09:57:46 Hmmmmmmmm 09:57:56 Maybe the buttons will move to the right side :O :O :O 09:58:17 And get the same embossed look, I guess 09:58:32 Embossing is good 09:58:35 Or maybe minimised windows will just stop existing :-P 09:58:59 That at least has the nice sort of consistency that you could have an embossed X on the left to close, an embossed zoom-thing on the right, and nothing else 09:59:03 Kind of inconvenient though 09:59:10 As it happens, you can now set minized windows to disappear "in" the app on the Dock 09:59:16 *minimize 09:59:18 But hey, if Apple are dedicated to this orthogonal persistence thing, then you can just call the window up again if you need it again, who needs minimised windows? 09:59:19 *minimized 09:59:23 NihilistDandy: Default? 09:59:28 Sadly, no 09:59:38 But it's a checkbox 10:02:25 The persistence thing is surprisingly ungimmicky 10:04:02 When I accidentally hit Cmd-Q in Safari, it doesn't bother asking me if that's okay since I have all this shit open 10:04:06 It just goes away 10:04:12 And then I open Safari again 10:04:20 And there's all my shit, right where I left it 10:05:43 NihilistDandy: It should do the minimising animation, except every single window goes into the icon :-D 10:05:55 Actually, if it was fast enough, that would be a good cue, assuming it's the zoom minimise animation rather than the unbearable genie 10:06:00 Hmm 10:06:04 Cmd-H should disappear 10:06:09 Since it's literally the same as Cmd-Q now 10:06:23 Hopefully. Though I do use Cmd-H a lot. Or did 10:06:32 A windows move into Dock icon/windows burst out of Dock icon model seems like the best way to analogise it 10:06:35 I'd just alias Cmd-H to Cmd-Q 10:06:38 Now I just keep everything in its own space 10:06:40 Or vice versa 10:06:41 Fullscreened 10:06:42 Probably vice vesa 10:07:16 Also, you can turn off the "app is open" lights 10:07:46 YES I READ THAT IN THE REVIEW 10:07:54 I like it 10:08:37 So when are they going to fix real issues like the Dock being fucking hideous 10:09:04 elliott: That's what Alfred's for 10:09:20 Not another QuickSilver clone 10:09:24 s/Sil/sil/ 10:09:46 Better than QS, and actually still developed 10:10:01 NihilistDandy: QS is actively developed. 10:10:05 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 10:10:09 Since when? 10:10:19 I thought it died out after SL came out 10:10:19 Since recently. 10:10:24 Oh, neat 10:10:37 Quicksilver is now developed by a team of volunteers with work on the open source project increasing throughout 2010.[3] 10:10:37 In November 2009, development shifted to using GitHub.[4] 10:10:37 At the end of 2010, a new website QSApp.com was launched, with the aim of unifying and collating all of Quicksilver's fragmented builds, plugins and support groups. Since its launch, the site has included a new Plugins Repository, Wiki and Downloads section. After several months of development, Quicksilver version β59 was released; a marked point in the history of the application. 10:10:49 Last release was in June. 10:10:54 Ooh 10:11:01 I might have to switch back 10:11:10 Dunno if it's improved much, mind — it used to be so crashy. 10:11:19 Indeed 10:11:31 Have you tried Alfred? 10:11:54 elliott, what is quicksilver now again... the name sounds familiar? 10:11:59 No, I don't use OS X. :p 10:12:05 Vorpal: A... thing. 10:12:14 oh okay 10:12:20 It's sort of like an object-oriented linguistic user interface. 10:12:28 Most of the time it's just used as a launcher. :p 10:12:33 elliott, hah 10:13:23 hm so AirDrop is vendor specific. That is rather stupid of apple I think. 10:13:33 iphone + windows can't be too uncommon 10:13:45 and if iphone gets airdrop... 10:14:05 Have you seen what happens when Apple try to write Windows applications? 10:14:17 elliott, not in person no 10:14:22 Lucky. 10:14:24 is it terrible? 10:14:27 It is. 10:14:40 QuickTime is one of the most-hated pieces of crapware on Windows. 10:14:47 oh yes that 10:14:57 NihilistDandy: I wish I could turn off mouse acceleration and make my trackpad absolute-positioned. 10:14:59 That would be fun. 10:15:03 elliott, my point was that apple would probably gain more from using some technology for airdrop that would also work under windows 10:15:18 elliott: I'm sure there's a way to hack it :D 10:15:20 sure, maybe not as well-integrated sure... but would at least work 10:15:24 Apple don't care much about Windows users. 10:15:41 elliott, wait, isn't iphone + windows a very common combo? 10:15:47 more than iphone + mac possibly 10:15:53 Windows users, on the other hand, care very much about Mac users and their stupid smug faces 10:15:57 Vorpal: Yes. 10:15:59 elliott, they just ignore that market segment? 10:16:02 They get to suffer through iTunes for Windows. 10:16:06 It isn't pleasant. 10:16:22 iTunes is pretty much the only Windows application Apple cares about. I don't even know why they ported Safari. 10:16:24 elliott, how comes iphones still sell 10:16:36 Vorpal: Because other phones suck that much more. 10:16:40 ^^ 10:16:41 And, well, you only need iTunes for syncing. 10:16:45 elliott, android is worse? 10:16:46 I want an @phone 10:16:56 Vorpal: Android is... well, getting better. 10:17:02 Vorpal: Have you ever used Eclipse? 10:17:07 I have idea I wanted to make up some programming language that can do a few things including implement rules of Magic: the Gathering cards. I have a few ideas about it, including: 10:17:10 Android is worse 10:17:13 * First class functions and first class rules 10:17:27 My current solution to the problem of either buying a bad phone or contributing to the complete downfall of any kind of computing freedom is to... not use a phone. 10:17:30 NihilistDandy, for windows integration? 10:17:49 Another place in the interwebs says they support AirDrop only on hardware that has firmware that can do infrastructure and the AirDrop-used ad-hoc mode simultaneously. 10:17:53 Vorpal: No, for writing code on the platform 10:17:56 ah 10:17:58 11:16 NihilistDandy: I want an @phone 10:18:04 * Basic types: boolean, integer, static strings (usable only for comparison and that C codes can use directly) 10:18:06 I was going to mumble something about hardware requirements. 10:18:10 But, umm, phones are pretty fast aren't they. 10:18:14 They are 10:18:16 NihilistDandy, at least android can run java and flash, unlike iphone 10:18:31 * Other types: enumeration, tagged union, structure, function 10:18:32 Vorpal: Says the guy who doesn't use Flash. 10:18:33 Vorpal: Those are not laudable qualities 10:18:39 Anyway, Flash support on phones is laughable. 10:18:41 They have quad-core phones either out or coming-out-soonishly. 10:18:42 It's the laggiest piece of shit imaginable. 10:18:46 It's utterly unusable. 10:18:47 Dual-core ones they do at least have. 10:18:54 And... um, Java doesn't even exist any more for desktop applications. 10:18:56 elliott, indeed, but I know a lot of people do, which is what I'm talking about 10:19:00 Minecraft is the only Java program anyone uses. 10:19:05 * Function types are allowed to include themself or types including themself 10:19:13 elliott, I do not consider myself the typical case here 10:19:18 HTML5 video players abound, and you don't need Flash games 10:19:19 Vorpal: Well that's a change ;-) 10:19:25 elliott, har 10:19:26 Why is Flash necessary again? 10:19:33 NihilistDandy: You do need Flash games, you definitely do. 10:19:39 elliott, I know I would be most happy with something meego-based :P 10:19:39 iOS is just big enough to get them ported ;-) 10:19:51 elliott: Exactly :D 10:20:02 Vorpal: Yeah, MeeGo is totally dead. 10:20:07 elliott, sadly 10:20:10 :( 10:20:11 It just hasn't realised that yet. 10:20:20 * Procedural rulebooks 10:20:49 HTML5 video players abound, and you don't need Flash games <-- no one can agree on the format for the video though 10:20:52 * Rulebooks specifying reading/writing properties of an object 10:21:06 * Pure functions 10:21:22 I really wish they'd just release the patents to H.twosixfour and stop being jackasses. 10:21:41 Vorpal: Just because there's a hostage taker in the house doesn't mean you don't have a favorite child. 10:21:47 elliott, I forgot who "they" are here 10:22:04 NihilistDandy, err? 10:22:15 how is that relevant!? 10:22:29 * External access to/from C codes and other program 10:22:30 Vorpal: A bunch of people. 10:22:36 elliott, right 10:22:42 elliott, apple? 10:22:45 The "audio data" API (that lets you actually do stuff to it realtime, instead of just doing playback of existing samples like the HTML5