00:02:07 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to LoverOfCheeses.
00:07:15 * Sgeo is taking a lot of math this semester
00:07:36 <Sgeo> Linear Algebra, Appl Probability & Statistics, Methods in Operations Research
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00:18:42 <zzo38> "In Haskell 98, the only classes that may appear in the deriving clause are the standard classes Eq, Ord, Enum, Ix, Bounded, Read, and Show." Is there any system that you can derive your own classes? Possibly using Template Haskell?
00:21:26 <oerjan> i believe there are packages for it
00:21:28 <monqy> using template haskell.
00:22:52 <oerjan> you can also derive more classes for newtypes with the GeneralizedNewtypeDeriving flag
00:23:15 <oerjan> but that's specific to newtypes
00:24:45 <oerjan> and also ghc adds some more classes, such as Typeable. i think maybe also Functor, Traversable and the like? or maybe that's in a package.
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00:26:30 <zzo38> But can you do it with your own classes too?
00:26:44 <monqy> there's no standard way
00:26:56 <oerjan> i'm sure template haskell must be able to, although i don't know it much
00:27:40 <oerjan> or perhaps you just need one of the more lightweight generics
00:28:20 <oerjan> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/derive
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00:31:01 <oerjan> http://community.haskell.org/~ndm/darcs/derive/derive.htm
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00:49:18 <zzo38> What I mean is if you can do something, if it were Template Haskell you might have a function of the type: Name -> (Info -> (Q [Dec])) -> (Q [Dec]) so that once you have specified the name of the class and the function that makes the instance declaration from the declaration containing the "deriving", and results in the declaration that tells it to accept "deriving" for that class.
00:51:36 <zzo38> It says monads have to do with category theory.
00:54:05 <oerjan> well they do, you don't need category theory to use them though
00:58:21 <oerjan> zzo38: iiuc derive doesn't use Template Haskell to generate the instance declaration, only to splice them into the original file, and you can choose to have it just append haskell code to the file instead
01:05:51 <pikhq> Just a few more days until I get a chunk of unintelligent design removed from my mouth. Yay.
01:06:33 <oerjan> brace for the removal?
01:06:48 <pikhq> No, wisdom teeth removal.
01:07:19 <pikhq> I have neither need nor desire for braces.
01:07:52 <coppro> I apparently have no wisdom teeth
01:07:56 * oerjan never had any removed, but that may be because they removed four other teeth first when i _did_ get my teeth adjusted
01:08:28 * oerjan has 3 and maybe a fourth lurking inside
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01:09:12 <oerjan> was a plate, not braces though
01:09:31 * pikhq has 3, one of which is causing direct issues, two of which are probably going to.
01:10:19 <oerjan> i assume wisdom teeth were intelligent enough back when people used to have lost teeth before they came out
01:10:37 <pikhq> Actually, that's not really it.
01:10:45 <pikhq> Wisdom teeth made sense when we had larger jaws.
01:11:27 <pikhq> And it took longer for them to be selected against than for large jaws to be selected against.
01:11:50 * coppro is a proud part of evolution
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01:12:05 <pikhq> I'm missing one of them, you see.
01:12:16 <pikhq> oerjan: All life is mutant.
01:12:37 <coppro> I apparently have a single half a one below my gum or something
01:12:46 <pikhq> Wasn't there something like an average of a dozen mutations per person?
01:12:47 <coppro> but I've not seen it except on xray
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01:39:27 <MDude> I have wisdom teeth, but I'm goign to see if my jaw i abnomally large enough to fit them.
01:41:10 <oerjan> if you can eat a banana sideways, you should be fine.
01:41:34 * MDude lays on his side, munches on a bannana.
01:41:54 <oerjan> sorry, i take no responsibility for lack of reading comprehension.
02:40:32 <Gregor> *crude sexual innuendo regarding munching on MY banana etc*
02:45:06 <quintopia> and practice lowering grapes slowly into your mouth by the stem
02:45:23 <quintopia> seeded grapes, so you can spit them on the floor (gracefully)
02:46:43 <oerjan> i utterly fail to see how this helps him check for an abnormally large jaw
02:52:01 <quintopia> it wouldnt, but it would help him make good friends with bacchus
02:53:07 <zzo38> Today in Jeopardy one of the players had the lowest score I think I have ever seen: -6000
02:54:47 <zzo38> Did anyone ever go lower?
02:54:55 <monqy> how was that managed
02:55:18 <zzo38> And he was a finalist!
02:55:38 <zzo38> (That is, this is the finalist game)
02:58:18 <zzo38> At least, during a match of two games, if you have negative they will not have to make up 6000, they will start with 0 instead of -6000
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03:05:36 <quintopia> trebek's like "dont worry! you start over at zero tomorrow!"
03:05:58 <quintopia> how did that happen btw? i wasnt actually watching closely
03:06:05 <quintopia> i just heard some of the questions
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03:10:36 <zzo38> Well, that player gave too many incorrect responses.
03:14:44 <quintopia> a little jumpy with the button were they?
03:15:08 <quintopia> so in final jeopardy they couldnt even bet?
03:17:53 <zzo38> Yes, if your score is zero or negative at the end of the second round, you are out and cannot play the final round.
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03:26:22 <pikhq> That's pretty amusing.
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03:36:18 <itidus20> Ok, for 200 points: How many operations are there in the Brainfuck programming language?
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03:37:18 <quintopia> hurray! i'm on my way to beating watson!
03:37:27 <pikhq> All but 8 of which are no-ops.
03:38:15 <itidus20> im an idiot hence my questions can't actually challenge people
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03:38:42 <itidus20> like i could ask how many "petals" are there on each of the "flowers" on this coffee mug i just made a drink with
03:39:08 <itidus20> but that would be NP hard I think
03:39:46 <pikhq> No, it's actually a quite trivial counting problem that *happens* to rely on state that we don't possess.
03:41:34 <oerjan> possessions of the state
03:44:47 <zzo38> I think the Haskell-like type definition for the card types of Magic: the Gathering that I had given before is wrong, for a few reasons. One is that some things you select a card type, another is the way subtypes work is not quite like I said but there is some way of working still, and the game also has supertypes, etc
03:45:38 <pikhq> Does it also handle the multiple card-pieces on a single card? (e.g. split cards)
03:47:39 <zzo38> No, what I specified does not; however, I don't know if that belongs to the type definition for the card type. Note also that tokens can have card types.
03:49:20 <pikhq> A card type should correspond to the Magic "card" entity.
03:49:28 <pikhq> To do otherwise makes it a blatant lie.
03:49:40 <pikhq> Note also that tokens are not card.
03:52:00 <zzo38> But tokens can still have card types. Copies of spells could also have card types (if it were up to me, copies would also be tokens, but I don't think those are the rules)
03:52:44 <pikhq> Those aren't card types. Those are just types.
03:53:07 <zzo38> Yes, Magic: the Gathering just calls them types.
03:53:24 <pikhq> Types apply to a wide variety of game objects, among them cards, permanents, and spells.
03:55:50 <pikhq> And you really shouldn't conflate different game objects.
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04:11:11 <zzo38> I know there is what Magic: the Gathering calls "object", so it is like "object type" I guess
04:11:51 <pikhq> Yeah, pretty much.
04:12:15 <pikhq> Also, and this is important, what's on a given card in no way corresponds to the in-game object.
04:13:31 <zzo38> I think the stuff written on the card corresponds to its "initial state".
04:14:09 <pikhq> Split and flip cards fuck that up.
04:16:55 <itidus20> when i was young i tried to do a street fighter 2 monopoly hybrid on paper
04:18:57 <zzo38> Yes, that is one of the reasons why I consider the Magic: the Gathering rules to be klugy and messy. If I wrote the rules, there would be no state-based effect saying tokens cease to exist; instead, tokens simply would have no initial state so when a token moved it would be destroyed and there would be no initial state to create any object in the new zone from.
04:20:56 <zzo38> It would make more sense at least to me; but too bad, that is not the rules.
04:21:16 <zzo38> They make a lot of klugy rules for various reasons, one is because of old rules they try to keep compatibility with.
04:25:25 <zzo38> But I hope the programming language that I can invent (possibly with help) can be used not only to implement the actual Magic: the Gathering rules, but also the rules that I think they ought to have been.
04:25:47 <zzo38> But I still like help, of someone understanding my concerns and these kind of programming stuff.
04:28:38 <itidus20> does random searching. from the magic patent. "Provided herein is a novel method of game play and game components that in one embodiment are in the form of trading cards (10, 12, 40, 42, 44, 48, 54, 60, 64). "
04:29:22 <itidus20> "The patent has aroused criticism from some observers, who believe some of its claims to be invalid."
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04:34:53 <itidus20> more patent-hate to be heard.. pastebinned to save channel spam http://pastebin.com/tDkAKYSM
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04:41:56 <zzo38> Invalid or not, there are many related computer programs. I too believe it to be invalid but of course I don't know for sure. I don't like the patent either but eventually it expires anyways. Actually I dislike patents in general.
05:00:29 <itidus20> raises interesting questions .. eg.. can you patent a ball game?
05:00:54 <zzo38> The patent office might let you patent anything
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05:08:19 <pikhq> There's a patent on toast, why not a ball game?
05:13:49 <itidus20> well its all about the selling isn't it
05:18:14 <itidus20> hummm.. Garfield [who designed Magic] studied under Herbert Wilf and earned a Ph.D. in combinatorial mathematics from Penn in 1993.
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05:19:09 <pikhq> Yes, Dr. Richard Garfield is a professor of mathematics.
05:24:11 <itidus20> combinatronics seems to be the mathematics chasing buddha's tail
05:24:35 <itidus20> yeah.. he was a smart monkey that buddha
05:27:11 <zzo38> I still think random deck construction is a better game
05:28:26 <itidus20> well theres a quote here ''Impermanent are all compounded things.'
05:30:13 <zzo38> coppro: Have you been able to consider my things I was asking about last time? I have added a lot of stuff since when I expect you to have last read it, if any
05:30:33 <zzo38> (As well as correcting a few typing mistakes and clarifying some things better too)
05:31:02 <coppro> zzo38: Unfortunately not, I have been sidetracked by urgent business with the Pirate Party
05:31:55 <zzo38> OK. Can you tell me what stuff with the Pirate Party? I also have a few interests in those kind of things so I would like to know too.
05:33:49 <coppro> zzo38: Rewriting the constitution
05:34:20 <zzo38> Do you have more details? Is there anything wrong with the constitution?
05:34:20 <itidus20> monqy: pardon me.. i want to stop me in my tracks before i do some ridiculous irrelevant rant :D
05:34:33 <coppro> zzo38: yes, many things
05:34:46 <coppro> most significantly, an unreasonable quorum
05:34:52 <zzo38> Yes I would think so, although I don't know the details really
05:34:56 <zzo38> Nor how to correct it
05:35:02 <coppro> I'm working on correcting it
05:35:28 <coppro> but meetings are on the 19th of each month, so this needs to be done as soon as possible
05:37:31 <zzo38> OK so you have less than 8 days I suppose! Can you tell me what your ideas are for reforming the constitution? Unfortunately I don't know much about the constitution. But I agree with the Pirate Party that patents are a bad idea in general.
05:40:50 <zzo38> I disagree that internet is a fundamental human right. It is derived! Of course you can have the right, but it would be derived on many levels. More fundamental would be simply open communication across all these channels. Internet is one of them. But perhaps even these channels is somewhat, derived. But it is still a right. Just because is not fundamental doesn't mean you don't have that right.
05:47:45 <itidus20> carmack attacked patents in his keynote question time
05:48:51 <itidus20> if i recall correctly he called them parasites
05:49:06 <itidus20> and went on to repeat twice "everybody knows it!"
05:49:15 <pikhq> Well, of course. Patents serve precisely one purpose in the modern day and age: rent-seeking.
05:49:48 <pikhq> This is, still, only anything surprising to people who don't pay attention to tech.
05:49:51 <itidus20> you're a smart guy.. (on account of being in #esolang)
05:50:24 <itidus20> patents are like an altar made of wood
05:50:26 <pikhq> Patents directly harm most still-developing fields of technology. To the point that, because of them, it is illegal for me to write a non-trivial program.
05:50:37 <itidus20> onto which the rich can store their gold
05:50:58 <itidus20> if we collapse this altar of wood
05:51:25 <pikhq> May their wealth-at-the-expense-of-all-else burn.
05:51:32 <zzo38> coppro: It isn't for me to change
05:51:34 <itidus20> they won't say.. oh look, the peasants have raided our riches. let's play some more polo
05:52:12 <pikhq> What, you think that they're just fucking around right now?
05:52:34 <itidus20> the thing is... their power is not a product of patents
05:52:45 <itidus20> patents are merely an expression of their power
05:52:59 <pikhq> In case you hadn't noticed, many corporations are acting in concert to burn a country to the ground, gaining wealth, and moving on. As a matter of policy.
05:53:23 <pikhq> They won't "retaliate", they'll carry on as they have been.
05:53:53 <itidus20> well there is this other idea i should consider
05:54:27 <itidus20> part of the balance of society is the recognition of who owns what
05:54:48 <itidus20> a sort of mental application of intangible properties to objects
05:55:19 <itidus20> a door is an entry and exit point
05:56:01 <itidus20> a baseball bat is for sports and it is also a weapon
05:56:33 <itidus20> being in a violent state of mind, the violent one maintains these mental bindings
05:56:41 <itidus20> of what is a weapon and what is not
05:56:41 <coppro> pikhq: your comments about patents are far from true in non-software industries
05:57:00 <itidus20> like.. projectiles can become weapons during anger
05:57:17 <itidus20> i guess that is a swap of things
05:57:40 <pikhq> coppro: No, it applies to all industries, due to patents being so utterly incomprehensible that the only thing they do is "for 20 years this is mine, pay me."
05:57:51 <itidus20> since projectiles are normally not weapons.. however... projectiles are usually well established long before they are ever thrown
05:58:01 <coppro> pikhq: That's not true of all industries
05:58:05 <itidus20> one has an anticipated expectation of the weight of an object
05:58:16 <coppro> pikhq: I have spoken with patent lawyers about this
05:58:37 <zzo38> It is of my opinion that patent laws ought to be abolished so that nobody can patent anything, but I am not an expert and making laws and maybe there needs to be some transition time. I don't know exactly what the provisions of the transition time would be.
05:58:48 <itidus20> so, that is to say, patents are the weapon of the corporations
05:58:51 <pikhq> It's *especially* damnable with exponential growth occuring.
05:59:09 <coppro> Patent laws actually do serve a useful purpose in sectors where production costs are significant
05:59:25 <itidus20> and you see.. one corporation to another.. they need to keep a protocol among them... that.. "i can strike at you with patents, you can strike at me with patents"
05:59:32 <coppro> As they protect small players from having their products duplicated faster and cheaper from larger players
05:59:39 <zzo38> Patent laws may have served in the past. But today I think patents is just very bad in general
06:00:06 <pikhq> Aaaah, the myth of the small company with a patent. This would be applicable if our legal system wasn't most-money-wins.
06:00:56 <itidus20> basically.. corporations enjoy the knowledge that they each hold patents against each other.. it is a stable battleground
06:01:22 <itidus20> i mean.. its like theres no hidden plasma ray
06:01:48 <pikhq> (even if you win, you lose, because you have legal fees to pay)
06:02:34 <itidus20> i mean, each company accepts that it is best to not rock the boat.. none of them want to fight over acquisition of a new weapon to fight each other with
06:03:02 <coppro> pikhq: also, seriously, the other sectors are not abusing patents the same way software is
06:03:17 <coppro> pikhq: there are lots of statistics about this
06:03:31 <itidus20> like ok for example.. there is a protocol for gang violence... they have a tendancy to not use a lot of bombs and grenades as i understand it.. its mostly knives and guns
06:03:40 <pikhq> coppro: I see you're not familiar with Monsanto suing farmers for Monsanto GM'd crops cross-pollinating.
06:03:48 <zzo38> Well yes software patents are in fact much worse than others, but I still think patents bad in general for a lot of things
06:04:01 <coppro> pikhq: I'm quite familiar with that case
06:04:11 <coppro> pikhq: Familiar enough to know that it was deliberate on the part of the farmer
06:04:36 <coppro> pikhq: It was not cross-pollination; the farmer was deliberately harvesting and replanting crop that had grown on his side of the fence
06:06:09 <coppro> The Supreme Court basically said "This case would be very different if it weren't deliberate"
06:06:16 <zzo38> As you can see the patent system is completely bad.
06:06:56 <zzo38> I would be in favor of having a short transition time and then completely abolishing patents.
06:07:23 <coppro> I don't follow or agree
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06:11:24 <zzo38> Perhaps it would help to have many exceptions about patents, such as that there is no penalty for private or personal use, and that documentation itself is not patented, and that perhaps patents would only apply in case of large volumes of sales that they would force to pay a royalty and require specific text on their product in certain conditions, and so on. And/or even something that prevents patents from hindering any free-software/open-sour
06:11:30 <zzo38> (Did it get cut off?)
06:11:43 <coppro> documentation cannot be patended
06:11:53 <coppro> I agree, patents should be of more limited scop
06:12:03 <coppro> they should also have a lesser duration
06:12:18 <zzo38> Yes, I agree to that as well; they should have a lesser duration as well.
06:12:33 <zzo38> Where did it get cut off?
06:13:02 <itidus20> for me it was "hindering any free-software/open-sour" however wait for a second opinion
06:13:07 <zzo38> ... software and even hardware.
06:13:55 <zzo38> (And there are cases where free-software/open-source is not even related to computer)
06:19:31 <zzo38> Perhaps something based on the four Stallman freedoms and the Open Source Definition, if this would help at all in determining some parts of patent reform. Or, in other words, if you respect everyone's freedom you are not sued by patents. But maybe in case of things other than computer software (or data), there would also be something having to do with the production costs and that kind of costs and stuff, which complicates it a bit.
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06:53:30 <NihilistDandy> I used to be in three channels on Freenode. Now I'm on 16. Thanks, #haskell and #esoteric
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06:55:40 <fizzie> Once I went through Freenode's channel list in alphabetical order to somewhere around c or d, flagging potentially interesting-sounding channels I might consider joining (currently only on #esoteric and one #esoteric-spinoff); then I accidentally lost the file somewhere and gave up.
06:56:02 <PatashuWarg> It'd be more efficient to go from alrgest to smallest
06:56:29 <fizzie> PatashuWarg: I don't see how, since there's the same number of channels to consider, no matter how you order them.
06:57:01 <PatashuWarg> smaller channel = less likelyhood of activity
06:57:06 <monqy> what's -spinoff is it any good
06:58:32 <fizzie> On the IRCnet side of the fence I'm on two channels where I'm the only person ever. (Except about twice a year someone else /joins, comments something like "oh, this channel seems to have died?", and /parts.
06:58:37 <fizzie> Those are the best channels.
06:59:07 <fizzie> None of this "chatting" nonsense.
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07:58:27 <cheater_> http://hackaday.com/2011/06/17/homebrew-ttl-logic-computer/
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08:15:02 <pikhq> That is utterly epic.
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10:03:08 <CakeProphet> hmmm, so I think I'm going to write this program in C#
10:03:28 <CakeProphet> but Mono doesn't have complete support for Windows Presentation Foundation, so.. maybe I should find a different GUI toolkit.
10:17:42 <Vorpal> GTK# is okayish. Better than GTK from C IMO
10:18:26 <fizzie> GTK# might well be the most popular thing for GUIfying stuff in Mono.
10:19:45 <fizzie> Some of Gtk#'s documentation is not quite there, though.
10:21:01 <ais523> it's not really surprising that GTK is the most-supported GUI toolkit for Mono, given the relevant history
10:21:02 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
10:21:06 <lambdabot> elliott said 26d 10h 12m 57s ago: Request a copy of the wiki page "100_free_dutch_dating_sites_2008".
10:21:06 <lambdabot> Phantom__Hoover said 11h 14m 37s ago: BtW, you've been voted out of office in DF.
10:21:27 <ais523> hmm, I suspect there is more than one ais523 involved
10:22:10 <fizzie> (Also personally I think WPF is really bizarroid. But I suppose that might just be the unfamiliarity. It's just that I've seen rather horrible XAML/C# messes.)
10:23:56 <fizzie> Incidentally, by "doesn't have complete support", don't you mean "no support at all"?
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10:26:16 <Taneb> ais523: Where did the "523" come from?
10:26:35 <ais523> it was a random number
10:26:36 <fizzie> Taneb: I suppose the first 522 clones were somehow unsuitable.
10:26:46 <ais523> in order to give me a different name from all the other ais'es
10:26:51 <ais523> the entire username was computer-generated
10:27:14 <CakeProphet> it's certainly a better choice than WPF, which is pretty much portable to... Windows.
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10:41:38 <Taneb> You know what would be tricky?
10:41:49 <Taneb> Making an interpreter in Inform 7
10:42:39 <ais523> does it do arithmetic? I can't remember
10:42:45 <ais523> if it did, a Deadfish interp wouldn't be too hard
10:42:45 <fizzie> An interpreter of what?
10:43:28 <fizzie> ZBefunge is written in Inform Something, I don't know about the versions.
10:43:31 <fizzie> http://flourish.org/zbefunge/
10:43:51 <fizzie> (Also the first Befunge(93) interpreter I ever used; I have warm feelings towards it.)
10:44:02 <Taneb> I think that's Inform 6
10:44:27 <fizzie> Could be; it's old-ish.
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10:47:34 <ais523> inform 6 and 7 have basically no similarities
10:47:52 <Taneb> Inform 7 is built on inform 6
10:48:04 <Taneb> It compiles into inform 6, I think
10:48:13 <ais523> well, INTERCAL compiles into C
10:48:18 <ais523> that doesn't mean the two languages are similar in any way
10:48:32 <ais523> (although they're more similar than inform 6 and inform 7, because at least they have a vaguely related paradigm)
10:59:34 <ais523> <wdr1> I've set [a Reddit bot] free in /r/politics. It's a relatively primitive version of Eliza that simply takes the context of the post and randomly assigns blame or shortcomings to predetermined targets (e.g., Bush, Republicans, etc.). When it can't infer context, it simply doesn't post. (I found that responding with something too general made people suspicious.) The real fun was taking an old lisp implementation & porting it to haskell & playing
10:59:36 <ais523> w/ its HTTP package. So far it's worked pretty well. Right now it has a comment karma more than 10x mine.
10:59:44 <ais523> although he's keeping the username secret for obvious reasons
11:08:17 <Vorpal> ais523, I love the bit aboutthe 10x comment karma
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11:24:40 <Taneb> Well, I know have a watch that points in every direction but North
11:24:49 <Taneb> And I'm going out now, bye
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11:36:11 <ais523> hmm, does anyone here know of ATS (a language that isn't meant to be eso, but may as well be)?
11:36:15 <ais523> here's some code: http://www.ats-lang.org/EXAMPLE/MISC/quicksort_list_dats.html
11:38:25 <ais523> the homepage is effectively saying "look how great our language is, it only took us ten years to write quicksort"
11:38:48 <ais523> do you have opinions on it yet?
11:38:57 <ais523> I've only just seen it, so I don't yet
11:38:59 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: that's more or less it
11:39:31 <ais523> it's basically, you write both an imperativish and a functionallish program, in such a way that you prove they do the same thing
11:39:36 <Deewiant> I think I ran into it first when it was at the top of the shootout
11:39:54 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't think it's that they took 10 years to write quicksort, but that they took 10 years to write a formally-verified quicksort.
11:39:57 <ais523> and then once they do the same thing, it deletes the functionallish one and just runse the imperativish one
11:39:59 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: well, yes
11:40:07 <ais523> but that's the whole point of the language
11:41:09 <ais523> I do indeed find it hard to read
11:41:15 <ais523> but it's effectively an esolang, and they're all like that
11:41:32 <monqy> it looks more interesting than most esolangs on the wiki
11:41:45 <ais523> the average standard of the wiki is really low
11:42:01 <ais523> and you'd expect it to be, given that the wiki tries to codify everything
11:44:06 <ais523> as long as we define average as median, and make sure it's always on exactly half the languages, I'm for
11:45:20 <Deewiant> Category:Significantly Above Average
11:45:50 <monqy> shameful is my favourite category
11:46:00 <ais523> it's not a real category
11:46:03 <ais523> and it officially doesn't exist
11:46:06 <Deewiant> (I doubt half the languages are even interesting)
11:46:09 <ais523> but yes, I like it too
11:49:28 <ais523> hmm, I'm going to go on Special:Randompage a bit and list the first ten languages I come across
11:49:34 <ais523> then we can debate about how many of them are interesting
11:51:55 <ais523> UniCode, 0x29A, Yo, Gibberish, Java2K, MailBox, BytePusher, Version, Ozone, ParrBF
11:55:35 <Deewiant> UniCode has too little content to be interesting
11:58:18 <Deewiant> 0x29A seems interesting enough, doesn't seem like an obvious rehash of anything to me
11:59:39 <Deewiant> Yo is about as uninteresting as it gets
11:59:43 <ais523> it feels deficient, in some way
11:59:50 <ais523> Yo is in the same category as LOLCODE, I think
11:59:55 <ais523> only even less interesting
12:00:54 <ais523> Gibberish is like a less interesting Unefunge
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12:01:27 <ais523> Java2K I have a personal dislike for, it has an interesting idea but a poor execution of it
12:02:07 <ais523> (0x29A, Java2K, and BytePusher are the only languages on that list I recognised, and Java2K is the only one where I actually remembered what it was about)
12:02:58 <ais523> MailBox is thematic, and seems to use a paradigm pretty rare among esolangs
12:03:10 <ais523> but I'm not convinced it does anything interesting with it
12:03:42 <Deewiant> I'd still call Java2K interesting even if it's executed poorly
12:04:58 <ais523> BytePusher I'm not even sure how to classify
12:05:09 <ais523> it's an uninteresting OISC, except that it seems to allow for low-level hardware access
12:06:15 <ais523> Version's one of cpressey's, and it's more of a tarpitisation of INTERCAL than anything else
12:06:24 <ais523> but with better string handling
12:06:38 <ais523> certainly above-average for esolangs in general
12:10:14 <ais523> Ozone is vaguely reminiscent of Underload
12:14:18 <ais523> and ParrBF is a limited version of BF; more interesting than most of the /other/ limited versions of BF, but not by much
12:14:24 <ais523> hmm, that was a better set of results than I was expecting
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12:46:25 <CakeProphet> so is it better to construct a UI manually or to use one of the graphical editors that various IDEs have?
12:46:52 <Taneb> Depends how good you are
12:46:56 <CakeProphet> the visual aspect, that is. event code will always be... coded.
12:47:22 <Taneb> By which I mean me neither
12:47:51 <CakeProphet> I'm just wondering if it produces ugly code that would be made less ugly if done manually.
12:49:40 <ais523> I find that the GUI editors are only really useful if you already know how to do it manually
12:49:49 <ais523> and then you can use them to generate the code with less typing
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13:10:38 <asiekierka> an idea i've had: http://pastebin.com/m3avwkxb
13:12:06 <asiekierka> (nodes can not only be A,B,C, they can be of any name)
13:12:31 <asiekierka> oh. right. there's also a default Store and Compare value of True and of False
13:17:30 <asiekierka> one more idea, Copy B for node running it to become node B, keeping only the name
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13:50:43 <ais523> vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccc
13:50:51 <ais523> something was stuck in my keyboard
13:51:04 <ais523> and as normal, I didn't bother deleting the keys pressed as I tried to clear it out
13:51:16 <ais523> however, it was in another channel, so I had to cut/paste it over to #esoteric...
13:53:33 <Gregor> elliott: You're not here.
13:56:12 <ais523> Gregor: he logreads, so that statement is not entirely useless
14:00:14 <Gregor> ais523: As punishment for you're being here, I'm telling you this anecdote: Yesterday I accidentally uninstalled dash, coreutils, grep, sed, tar, dpkg and apt. Then, I fixed my system.
14:00:33 <Gregor> s/you're/your/ ... I think?
14:00:45 <ais523> yep, "your", "being" there is a gerund not a participle
14:00:50 <Gregor> I think "you" is what I wanted.
14:00:57 <ais523> and you're using it as a noun
14:01:10 <Gregor> Anyway, grammar aside :P
14:01:43 <ais523> that's a lot of things to accidentally uninstall
14:01:45 <ais523> was it specifically that set?
14:01:59 <ais523> first thing I notice is that you probably still have a shell, even though you don't have dash
14:02:12 <ais523> although that's maybe less important
14:02:20 <ais523> because you likely have a shell open to do the accidental uninstall
14:02:32 <Gregor> Yeah, I still had bash.
14:02:36 <Gregor> And it was specifically that set.
14:02:40 <ais523> and you also still have wget, in that case
14:02:50 <ais523> and you still have sudo
14:03:02 <Gregor> What I was TRYING to do was install something in a debootstrap, then uninstall all the core garbage I don't actually want, so I just ended up with the something I wanted and its dependencies.
14:03:06 <ais523> so you can just sudo wget the executables right onto your filesystem
14:03:13 <Gregor> I accidentally unintalled the core garbage on the host instead of the guest >_>
14:03:22 <Gregor> ais523: Didn't have chmod though
14:03:30 <ais523> oh right, so they wouldn't be executable
14:03:38 <ais523> just use any of the other methods for changing permissions, then
14:03:46 <ais523> I've seen a slideshow with about 10 of them
14:04:15 <ais523> the first one that came to mind for me now is the Perl one-liner
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14:04:54 <ais523> but there are some other clever ones, like using ld-linux.so to run a nonexecutable versions of chmod, or copying an existing executable and overwriting its contents but not metadata
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14:05:09 <ais523> one I've used before now is to copy to a VFAT filesystem and back, that sets the executable bit if it isn't mounted noexec
14:05:39 <ais523> so, what method did you use?
14:05:58 <Gregor> Now I'm trying to remember which I used first X-D
14:06:12 <Gregor> (Once I had tar, I just let tar do it, but I forget how I got tar working ... )
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14:06:26 <Gregor> I still had ssh and scp :P
14:06:32 <Gregor> I just scp'd the tar binary from another computer
14:06:37 <ais523> oh, so you scped an executable
14:06:42 <ais523> and scp set the executable bit as a result
14:07:02 <Gregor> Then I had to refetch all the .deb packages and extract them, then install them properly :P
14:07:14 <ais523> hmm, I think there's a big scary confirm for trying to uninstall anything marked essential
14:07:24 <ais523> but on the other hand, you probably overrode that because your debootstrap would have to
14:07:38 <ais523> things that always scare me: mke2fs needs a force option to operate on a regular file
14:07:49 <ais523> and I really don't like forcing a command that's designed to reformat your hard drive
14:08:07 <ais523> (luckily, I can run it as non-root, which reduces the potential for accidents by quite a lot)
14:08:56 <Gregor> Yeah, I overrode that because I thought I was doing it in a chroot :P
14:09:38 <ais523> hmm, how easy is it to detect if you're in a chroot, if you aren't root?
14:09:54 <ais523> not breaking out of it, just discovering if you're in one
14:10:23 <Gregor> Not easy. What I'd probably do is check the process list and see if the files don't seem to conform to my filesystem.
14:10:41 <ais523> I suppose a relatively simple way would be to check /proc; if it isn't there, you're probably in a chroot, if /proc/1/cwd isn't / (verifying by trying to visit from it), you're probably in a chroot
14:10:59 <ais523> but you can use a separate PID namespace to get out of that
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14:47:07 <asiekierka> http://pastebin.com/m3avwkxb what do you think
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15:33:15 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, just so you know, I'm currently engineering for your successor as mayor to meet with an unfortunate accident.
15:33:35 <ais523> the voted-out me is still fine?
15:33:46 <ais523> or does voting out get combined with an unfortunate accident in #esoteric DF?
15:34:17 <Taneb> I don't do unfortunate accidents
15:34:33 <Taneb> The last time I tried, it was a bit too unfortunate.
15:34:51 <Taneb> Flooded the entire fortress.
15:36:20 <Taneb> ...Don't use a river to flood a room. Use a pit/pond zone
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15:45:37 <Phantom_Hoover> <Taneb> ...Don't use a river to flood a room. Use a pit/pond zone
15:46:12 <Phantom_Hoover> To the extent of having 2 doors and a floodgate between the room and the fortress, as well as a J-tube.
15:46:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Of course, elliott is probably going to mess it up as soon as I pass control to him, but whatever.
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16:04:25 <CakeProphet> hmmm, there seems to be nowhere I can get free linux/ubuntu stickers.
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17:05:22 <itidus20> If I was a magician I would want as ultimate ideal to never perform the same trick to an audience twice
17:16:43 <ais523> wow, I just saw someone explain a Chuck Norris joke on Slashdot
17:16:47 <ais523> those jokes need explaining? seriously?
17:17:02 <ais523> (this is independent of whether you think they're funny or not)
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18:00:17 <itidus20> http://filesharingz.com/community/topic/197185-and-when-even-the-death-penalty-doesn%E2%80%99t-deter-copying-%E2%80%94-what-then/
18:01:19 <elliott> itidus20: that's like, the least reputable URL for a fairly reputable article
18:01:33 <elliott> http://torrentfreak.com/and-when-even-the-death-penalty-doesnt-deter-copying-what-then-110807/, written by Rick Falkvinge, founder of the Swedish Pirate Party
18:02:10 <itidus20> ahh down the bottom it says "News Source: Torrent Freak "
18:04:24 <itidus20> I also liked http://torrentfreak.com/former-google-cio-limewire-pirates-were-itunes-best-customers-110726/
18:07:08 <zzo38> I have dynamic DNS and multi protocol use, and even the invention of Hypernet, so hopefully my file and speech are more difficult to be censored anyways; I also encourage copying instead of discourage which is another thing to help possibly.
18:07:37 <itidus20> I have circa 700 books. Some secondhand, some new. 49 playstation 2 games. over 100 dvds. 10 dvd box sets. A bunch of audio cds. A bunch of magazines. a $300 dictionary. a $200 8 volume comicbook. From when I worked at a carwash basically.
18:07:56 <elliott> slicehost, why are you emailing me for this
18:08:04 <itidus20> I mean I chase cheap deals sometimes like books which libraries sell off
18:08:26 <zzo38> Hypernet is intended nobody can possibly terminate your service, because there is no service to terminate!
18:08:41 <elliott> hey pikhq, go pretend tup's lack of technical C standard compliance is an issue to you so that somebody pays attention to my post
18:08:44 <itidus20> but.. it is not that I haven't liked spending money in the past..
18:10:28 <itidus20> I like copying because it makes possible what is not at all possible for an individual to otherwise do legally
18:12:30 <itidus20> So what can be copied, you may ask.. what can be copied? The only thing that can be copied is a work which has been completed.
18:13:03 <itidus20> A work which can be copied is one which sets a person up to live indulgantly on some past accomplishment indefinitely.
18:13:41 <itidus20> Whether this is a good thing or not is hard to ascertain
18:14:49 <itidus20> a minion who is working on something such as a programmer working on a game or an animator working on a film etc doesn't even get any rights to that thing they work on
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18:17:48 <itidus20> So most of the time it is the company which owns a copyright, which i guess does go some way to alieviating the former problem
18:18:30 <derrik> itidus20: what was the former problem?
18:19:46 <itidus20> Ok so.. someone creates something one day. Now the next day they can lay on the beach sunbaking waiting for people to pay for what the person made on the one day
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18:21:30 <itidus20> So they become potentially idle. Their contribution to society has been made. Now they have nothing more to give.
18:22:28 <itidus20> But in practice, the main ones who owns such works are companies.
18:23:03 <itidus20> So the individuals who can get rich off one creation are rare.
18:23:33 <itidus20> However, a company cannot simply exist by maintaiing it's current level of money
18:23:55 <itidus20> It has to constantly increase for the shareholders.
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18:24:34 <itidus20> And the shareholders.. their price is being at the mercy of risk
18:25:34 <derrik> itidus20: true.. this is why they constantly invent more copyrights.. they are copyrighting pieces of whatever we can see around us..
18:26:03 <itidus20> there is no point.. i am merely nutting out the logic of this as i go
18:26:10 <itidus20> that is to say i don't know the point
18:29:12 <itidus20> But what it means is that copy protection creates an inefficency whereby companies contribute less because they can sort of ride on the wave of their past accomplishments
18:29:43 <itidus20> This seems to be at odds with the fact that companies would gut each other if they had the chance.
18:30:18 <pikhq> You are assuming that corporations are rational actors.
18:30:27 <pikhq> They are perhaps the least rational actors.
18:30:51 <itidus20> the competition wihch would result from no copy protection would probably create huge ineffiencies
18:31:16 <quintopia> but as it is, there are no huge inefficiencies, of course
18:31:40 <itidus20> yes.. i grudgingly accept from my analysis that the system is not so bad
18:32:49 <itidus20> but you see... i don't like the kind of system which is driven by financial goals
18:32:57 <derrik> if by efficiency you mean that companies won't stop until the resources are used up, then yes, they are efficient
18:33:28 <itidus20> i am just getting lost among my ideas now
18:34:03 <derrik> good.. it means you are sane for the time being
18:34:09 <itidus20> sorry guys.. yeah I have an alternative line of thought sort of going on
18:34:38 <itidus20> i can't think up a system that actually works perfectly.. but my utopia is something like
18:34:43 <Vorpal> why do companies have to grow all the time. That isn't sustainable
18:34:52 <itidus20> laziness is related to boredom!
18:35:07 <elliott> itidus20: you realise quintopia was being sarcastic right
18:35:28 <pikhq> Vorpal: Because stupid.
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18:35:46 <Vorpal> pikhq, but if you would ever reach 100%, then what
18:35:56 <pikhq> At present, our entire economic system does not *handle* a lack of growth at all.
18:36:20 <pikhq> It straight-up makes the assumption that growth tends to be positive.
18:36:31 <itidus20> now theodore seuss is dead... so screw him
18:36:43 <pikhq> Rather than having a (potentially-unknown) upper bound.
18:36:47 <elliott> `addquote <itidus20> now theodore seuss is dead... so screw him
18:36:50 <HackEgo> 584) <itidus20> now theodore seuss is dead... so screw him
18:37:09 <derrik> pikhq: not "tends".. there are just two things: 1. growth 2. crisis
18:37:26 <pikhq> derrik: There is a 3rd option, unconsidered.
18:37:32 <pikhq> derrik: No growth is possible.
18:37:48 <Vorpal> derrik, what about a stand-still?
18:38:01 <pikhq> Corporations just flail horribly when they hit this.
18:38:04 <derrik> pikhq: the third option will never be considered.. you named it right
18:38:32 <pikhq> Typically causing significant harm to the company, oddly enoughj.
18:38:50 <Vorpal> pikhq, why not just accept it, and maintain status quo
18:38:59 <pikhq> Vorpal: Corporations are not rational actors.
18:39:18 <Vorpal> pikhq, why couldn't some company be rational?
18:39:31 <derrik> they are not entirely irrational.. they are completely predictable
18:39:40 <pikhq> derrik: Predictable != rational.
18:39:55 <derrik> there is a method to their madness
18:40:10 <Vorpal> derrik, yes but do you not know what "rational actor" means?
18:40:30 <elliott> knowing things makes it harder to make grand, sweeping statements, Vorpal
18:40:59 <derrik> Vorpal: if you mean it in relation to game theory, that's not a good concept to use in economy
18:41:10 <Vorpal> derrik, I know the term from AI theory
18:41:17 <Vorpal> I assumed that was the term pikhq used
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18:41:37 <Vorpal> err, not term. I mean "meaning"
18:41:42 <elliott> Vorpal: Rational choice is... not from any AI theory.
18:41:57 <Taneb> I now have seen Slumdog Millionare
18:42:07 <Vorpal> elliott, well true, I first ran into the term in an AI context though.
18:42:18 <Vorpal> elliott, so i guess it is from game theory in this case
18:42:35 <derrik> the problem with game theory when applied to economics is that in game theory the players know the game.. in real-life economy the players hardly know anything about the game
18:42:45 <Vorpal> elliott, not familiar with it in that context
18:42:56 <itidus20> i dont have the lorax text but i have an audio version so i will interpret from there
18:42:58 <asiekierka> an idea i've had: http://pastebin.com/m3avwkxb
18:43:09 <derrik> tho they sure think it's a game
18:43:13 <Vorpal> itidus20, you never answered what "lorax" is
18:43:31 <elliott> derrik: so what do you think of esolangs
18:44:00 <itidus20> Vorpal: At the far end of town where the grickle grass grows, and the wind smells slow and sour when it blows and no birds ever sing excepting old crows...
18:44:05 <derrik> itidus20: upload lorax to internet or something so we can all take a look at it
18:44:57 <pikhq> derrik: The typical *assumption* in economics is that entities are rational actors.
18:45:04 <Taneb> asiekierka: Can you explain your idea to me?
18:45:06 <pikhq> This, of course, is inherently flawed.
18:45:15 <Vorpal> itidus20, okay googled it. So a book
18:45:22 <Vorpal> itidus20, why couldn't you just have said that
18:45:30 <asiekierka> Taneb it's an esolang based on these simple nodes
18:45:34 <pikhq> It's a bit like assuming frictional pullies. It makes shit easier, but it also makes shit not always *work*.
18:45:34 <derrik> pikhq: that is a typical sign of a typically bad economist.. don't read further
18:45:35 <itidus20> no i want to explain what the actual lorax is.. but its a slow response
18:45:41 <asiekierka> essentially a node can autorun and/or be triggered by another node
18:45:44 <pikhq> Frictionless, even.
18:45:48 <derrik> elliott: reading about the thing on wikipedia right now :)
18:45:58 <asiekierka> the tick is incremented after all autoruns/fired nodes were ran
18:46:01 <elliott> derrik: Umm, you don't know what esolangs are?
18:46:04 <asiekierka> nodes have a Compare and Action segment
18:46:05 <elliott> derrik: Then why are you in this channel?
18:46:09 <pikhq> derrik: In case you hadn't noticed, I've been *stating* that it's a bad assumption. :)
18:46:20 <asiekierka> Compare - the nodes that should be checked for their values
18:46:27 <asiekierka> ActionTrue/ActionFalse - what to do when Compare returns True/False
18:46:35 <elliott> derrik: This is an esolang channel after all...
18:46:38 <Taneb> asiekierka: Sounds interesting
18:46:41 <asiekierka> Action commands are Fire, Store and StorePrev
18:46:56 <derrik> elliott: because you sound smart sometimes.. i am a linguist.. it is somewhat related to esoteric languages :)
18:46:59 <asiekierka> Store - always last command, stores the value of the node mentioned as its own (also stops parsing other commands)
18:47:09 <asiekierka> (by default it stores the Compare result)
18:47:16 <elliott> derrik: did you think this channel was about esoterica like most people.....?
18:47:24 <asiekierka> StorePrev - always last, stores the value of the node mentioned before firing it or comparing it
18:47:51 <derrik> derrik: i have been here long enough by now.. i know what it is about and i keep returning
18:47:53 <Taneb> Make an article on the wiki?
18:48:01 <asiekierka> which won't save the result as the node's value
18:48:06 <asiekierka> Taneb i will once I have an interpreter
18:48:17 <Taneb> You don't need an interpreter
18:48:34 <Taneb> Make an article and someone else may make an interpreter
18:48:37 <itidus20> Vorpal: basically the lorax is a small creature who lives in a place where business comes along and uses up all the resources, and he tries to talk reason with them
18:49:30 <itidus20> and he has all the wonder that a dr seuss character tends to have
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18:51:33 <itidus20> it's a cool story... they made an animation about it, as they did for many of his stories
18:53:14 <Taneb> I've been told I look like a Dr Seuss character
18:54:31 <Phantom_Hoover> By people who have never seen Dr Seuss characters, I assume.
18:55:04 <itidus20> Anthony Hopkins as the Onceler
18:55:22 <Taneb> Back then, I almost did
18:55:38 <itidus20> but they did do a live action movie of the grinch and the cat in the hat
18:56:06 <itidus20> speaking of the onceler, i have a passage about him here:
18:56:20 <itidus20> He stays in his Lerkim on top of his store.
18:56:20 <itidus20> He lurks in his Lerkim, cold under the roof,
18:56:20 <itidus20> where he makes his own clothes
18:56:35 <itidus20> (oops didnt remove linebreaks properly
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19:08:51 <zzo38> What is miff-muffered moof?
19:10:12 <elliott> `addquote <zzo38> What is miff-muffered moof? <itidus20> that's a tough question
19:10:13 <HackEgo> 585) <zzo38> What is miff-muffered moof? <itidus20> that's a tough question
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19:14:58 <itidus20> audio version was by ted danson.. i can't complain. he does good
19:16:29 <itidus20> one of these audio books is by john cleese
19:16:40 <tswett> Will I die in a lava chamber?
19:17:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover has already killed the last two in succession.
19:17:31 <elliott> I'm just saying, I would hire a bodyguard.
19:17:52 <Taneb> And some scuba gear
19:17:57 <elliott> What happened to Lymia then
19:18:13 <elliott> tswett: Basically what I am saying is don't demand anything be made out of platinum or adamantium or anything else we've made.
19:18:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, so it was just an election.
19:18:18 <tswett> elliott, you're my bodyguard. If I die in lava, I want you to die in lava, too.
19:18:28 <Taneb> ais523 was a good mair
19:18:30 <elliott> tswett: No sorry I am too busy building myself the best bedroom.
19:18:38 <Taneb> He like low boots and copper
19:18:38 <elliott> And destroying Taneb's bedroom.
19:18:46 <elliott> He's an earlier iteration.
19:18:53 <tswett> Well, then, I only have one choice.
19:19:04 <tswett> I'm going to punch every dwarf in this fortress, causing a tantrum spiral.
19:19:19 <elliott> tswett: I'll just lock up most of them
19:19:40 <elliott> tswett: You should see what we do to the elf traders.
19:19:55 <elliott> (Seize all their items and then kill them. You think the elf blood everywhere in the trading depot would tip them off.)
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19:22:21 <zzo38> Maybe they didn't recognize it is elf blood? Or maybe it evaporated?
19:22:46 <elliott> It didn't evaporate, it's still on the item list if you look at it
19:23:15 <Taneb> Elves don't know what elf blood is.
19:23:30 <Taneb> They don't actually have any sharp objects.
19:24:05 <elliott> Are their swords made out of BLUNT wood?
19:24:19 <elliott> Do they just fight by giving everyone splinters.
19:28:00 <asiekierka> Taneb any name ideas for that esolang concept of mine?
19:28:19 <Taneb> For me, I generally think of a name first, then make a language under the name
19:28:51 <tswett> Woo, I have three jewelers.
19:30:07 <tswett> I should make the excess jewelers miners.
19:30:32 <elliott> tswett: I must inform you that Dwarf Fortress discussion is only STRICTLY on-topic in #esoteric-minecraft.
19:30:55 <tswett> Here, it's only loosely on-topic?
19:31:03 <elliott> (This is because Dwarf Fortress is literally Minecraft.)
19:31:12 <elliott> tswett: Well, I don't want to imply that we have a TOPIC...
19:31:33 <itidus20> What I am finding is that the name esolang, refers to a thing with a zing and a blang.
19:32:49 <itidus20> But not a dabdoobler from a high ninimajoo, but yes a thrump-frumper from diddy-la-doo.
19:33:09 <itidus20> (i overdosed on dr seuss just now)
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19:33:28 <elliott> tswett: For instance, Phantom_Hoover's updates on the drainage system for his dorf-killing trap would be incredibly rude in #esoteric, because the fact that #esoteric-minecraft exists implies that the speaker did not consider it on-topic there, and therefore the only reasonable assumption would be that they were talking about real-life little people.
19:33:46 <elliott> So, while DF discussion is not off-topic per se in #esoteric, it is likely to get you exiled.
19:34:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It is only logical.
19:34:21 * elliott takes off his pointy ears.
19:34:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I never take those off.
19:35:40 <Taneb> He likes is Spock costume
19:38:51 <elliott> TODO: Fix that shiro bug, i.e. it catches all errors, including ones I actually want to be errors in all situations (perhaps? maybe not); also, once I've fixed that, make sure that the fix still catches general monadic pattern match errors (but _not_ pure ones, I think)
19:39:29 <Taneb> Shiro's the Haskell befunge-98 interpreter, right?
19:39:43 <elliott> Yes. s/be/N/ is the long-term goal.
19:39:52 <elliott> (There's unefunge and trifunge, and the generalisation to any N-dimensional funge is simple.)
19:41:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Hey, fix Shiro or your dorf dies twice.
19:41:47 <Taneb> Okay, this is stupid.
19:42:11 <Taneb> Windows is just now notifying me that quintopia said "Hi"
19:42:22 <elliott> Windows is your IRC client?
19:42:44 <Taneb> No, my IRC client told Windows to notify me
19:42:59 <Taneb> I'm using Windows due to network connection problems
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20:04:24 <zzo38> OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK O
20:06:22 <zzo38> Is there any purpose to make a pseudomonad in Haskell that does not follow the monad laws, but can still be used with "do" notation, etc?
20:06:40 <elliott> The monad laws reflect obvious transformations on imperative blocks of statements
20:07:25 <zzo38> I know. But what if there is some way to use the do blocks for something other than imperative?
20:07:37 <elliott> Well, they're obvious transformations in general
20:07:39 <elliott> For instance, you would think "do {x <- do {...; lastThing}; ...}" would be reducible to "do {...; x <- lastThing; ...}" (modulo bindings)
20:07:43 <elliott> But without the monad laws, this isn't true
20:07:54 <elliott> zzo38: The problem is that it's totally unpredictable
20:08:02 <elliott> zzo38: Two equivalent implementations of a combinator could behave differently if you violate the laws
20:08:10 <elliott> So you can't rely on much anything at all
20:08:20 <tswett> Does the compiler assume the laws are sound?
20:08:38 <elliott> tswett: No; Haskell programs that violate them are perfectly valid Haskell programs.
20:08:45 <zzo38> That is another thing I thought, which is can a compiler possibly transform differently in different cases or different compiler?
20:08:46 <elliott> But you never want to write one ever.
20:09:17 <elliott> A compiler that optimised based on the monad laws would be in violation of the standard.
20:09:44 <pikhq> However, violating the monad laws horribly breaks everyone's intuitions.
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20:13:08 <oerjan> it would be easy for someone to accidentally write a ghc rule which assumed it, though
20:13:34 <oerjan> and i think i saw someone mention a package somewhere which did
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20:14:38 <oerjan> incidentally, i think the arrow notation assumes the arrow laws something heavily to rearrange things
20:16:18 <oerjan> <ais523> 0x29A is a bit weird
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20:16:33 <oerjan> it's broken in a way that just barely avoids destroying TC-ness :P
20:17:23 <oerjan> definitely above average
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20:24:03 <elliott> oerjan: also, "something heavily" is a weird phrase :P
20:24:14 <zzo38> O, so, it is not against the standard to use pseudomonads with do notation. But it is possible that nobody ever needs them anyways.
20:33:57 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, it has an s combinator that only does one stage of evaluation, according to the wiki.
20:36:35 <Gregor> OK, I've made a UML-based alternative to plash.
20:36:40 <Gregor> The question: DOES IT WORK?
20:39:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Heh, what.
20:39:28 <oerjan> zzo38: if you're doing anything significantly different with the do notation, you might want the NoImplicitPrelude and RebindableSyntax extensions for defining your own (>>=) function etc. for the do notation (not tied to the Monad typeclass), see http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/users_guide/syntax-extns.html#rebindable-syntax
20:39:31 <elliott> Gregor: Hooray, now our sandboxes can have diagrams.
20:39:40 <Gregor> elliott: Usermode Linux :P
20:39:48 <elliott> oerjan: NoImplicitPrelude is not necessary
20:39:54 <elliott> just use RebindableSyntax then import Prelude hiding (Monad, etc.)
20:40:32 <elliott> Conditionals (e.g. "if e1 then e2 else e3") means "ifThenElse e1 e2 e3". However case expressions are unaffected.
20:40:39 <elliott> ooh, that means you can do "if monadic then ... else ..."
20:40:48 <elliott> not without overlapping instances
20:40:54 <elliott> and you'd still want it for case expressions too, oh well
20:40:59 <elliott> and really you want the syntax to differ at least some
20:42:15 <oerjan> <elliott> how's it broken? <-- its combinator subset requires all applications to be full, so you can only use S with exactly 3 arguments
20:42:45 <elliott> oerjan: so S(Ix) is invalid forall x?
20:46:26 <oerjan> it's valid but you must apply it to exactly 2 more arguments before it is evaluated
20:47:20 <elliott> hmm, is SKI sub-TC if you use strict evaluation, then?
20:47:28 <oerjan> "In the evaluation rule for s, it is not specified that either xz or yz are evaluated."
20:47:40 <oerjan> i may have been the one who wrote that sentence.
20:54:17 <elliott> Also Shiro TODO: Replace the stack with something better than a list.
20:55:28 <oerjan> elliott: unlambda has strict evaluation, so no.
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20:57:07 <Taneb> In combinatory logic, whenever there are two open brackets adjacent, would I be correct to say the inner-most bracket and its partner are superfluous?
20:58:48 <oerjan> same syntax for it as haskell, really
20:58:48 <zzo38> But what I wanted to know is, is there any purpose anyone has ever made up that uses do notation in different way?
21:00:28 <oerjan> zzo38: there are experiments on changing the type of (>>=) to something like (>>=) :: ParametrizedMonad m => m p1 p2 a -> (a -> m p2 p3 b) -> m p1 p3 b
21:00:53 <oerjan> which allows combining actions which have some additional type variation
21:01:44 <oerjan> say if you want a monad like State, except where the type of the state does not need to stay the same throughout
21:02:13 <Gregor> elliott: My UML-based plash replacement is 228 lines of C and 107 lines of Python, but I can't think of anything it does that plash doesn't (other than the GTK+ "powerbox" bullshit)
21:02:32 <Gregor> I suppose it doesn't support X apps at all though :)
21:03:21 <elliott> Gregor: Why would it not support X apps?
21:03:38 <Gregor> elliott: UML doesn't translate sockets from host to guest, and I didn't include networking support.
21:04:04 <oerjan> Taneb: in some sense (a b c d) is just syntactic sugar for (((a b) c) d)
21:04:22 <oerjan> (that also applies to both CL and haskell)
21:09:31 <elliott> I'd say that's literally true
21:10:03 <oerjan> well pretty close to it
21:10:40 <elliott> unless it has tuples, how else could it work?
21:10:43 <oerjan> although ghc _does_ try to detect when a function is fully applied, so it doesn't have to allocate a closure
21:11:42 <oerjan> but of course it presumably does that even if you write (((a b) c) d)
21:12:01 <CakeProphet> I'm assuming by CL you mean Common Lisp, which means that there isn't partial application (as far as I know...)
21:12:06 <oerjan> CakeProphet: combinatory logic :P
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21:12:43 <CakeProphet> yeah combinatory logic has partial application. This is why you guys need me for these conversations.
21:12:47 <CakeProphet> to give you valuable information like that.
21:15:11 <CakeProphet> yeah, well, you know sum is just syntactic sugar for foldl (+) 0
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21:22:57 <itidus20> traditionally (disputable - which traditions?) computer programs have been measured (disputable - who did this measuring?) on the basis of how quickly they could perform calculations (disputable - you're really talking out of your ass)
21:25:12 <CakeProphet> that's a reasonable statement. There's no need to defeat yourself. ;)
21:26:30 <itidus20> there is a danger in these corrections i add in parentheses of creating a false sense of security among less discerning readers that there couldn't possibly be any errors in what i am saying
21:27:21 <monqy> I measure in terms of elegance and friends
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21:27:27 <itidus20> I am just being honest about myself
21:28:01 <olsner> monqy: so what's the circumference of the equator, measured in elegance and friends?
21:28:05 <CakeProphet> it helps understand half of the shit I say. :P
21:28:07 <oerjan> no he doesn't, he's lying
21:28:39 <oerjan> for elegance i go for 20000 km
21:28:39 <itidus20> i was of course going somewhere with this.. but the train of thought has stopped for fuelling
21:28:45 <CakeProphet> oerjan: no don't do that! you'll cause a parad-AAAAH I'M IMPLODING.
21:28:54 <elliott> oerjan: not a power of two? how un-round.
21:29:14 <CakeProphet> is there a word for unround that isn't unround? bumpy?
21:29:38 <oerjan> elliott: the meter was _designed_ to make the circumference of the earth 40000 km. not along the equator, and they messed up the calculations, but anyhow.
21:30:30 <elliott> CakeProphet: I was thinking "uneven" at first, but...
21:31:18 <itidus20> unround is........... y[n], being a function of angle[n], is not equal to y[n+1] nor y[n-1]
21:31:47 <oerjan> there are just too many ways for something not to be round
21:32:02 <CakeProphet> itidus20: why do you use all of these hideous square bracket notations.
21:32:40 <oerjan> may it be a mathematica thing or something...
21:32:54 <itidus20> because i don't know combinatorial logic.. i don't know haskell. i don't know calculus. i don't know set theory. a mixture of these factors
21:33:06 <elliott> none of those are relevant
21:33:21 <oerjan> well the calculus one is slightly relevant
21:33:25 <elliott> monqy: i think i am going to do the bad thing i said i wanted to do..........
21:33:33 <itidus20> because IRC doesn't have a subscript markup
21:33:43 <monqy> elliott: bad thing???????
21:34:04 <oerjan> itidus20: aha. well true mathematicians go for pseudo-(La)TeX in that case :P
21:34:35 <itidus20> so.. if someone wants to make a plugin for irc which uses embedded mimetex then i will give you your subscripts
21:34:38 <CakeProphet> I usually expect () when dealing with functions, but... it's arbitrary really.
21:34:49 <CakeProphet> I fear square brackets used in weird ways, really.
21:35:18 <elliott> monqy: yes.......... make a Shiro.Lens module which uses data-lens but then RENAMES THE OPERAtors........
21:35:24 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `t -> m a'
21:35:49 <oerjan> > sequence [[[],[]],[]]
21:35:56 <itidus20> the nth Y... being a function of the nth angle.. .. the nth Y is not equal to nth+1th Y nor is the nth Y equal to nth-1th Y
21:35:59 <CakeProphet> oerjan: CAN'T FOOL ANYONE YOU DON'T KNOW HASKELL.
21:36:23 <oerjan> AND I WOULD HAVE GOT AWAY WITH IT IF NOT FOR YOU PESKY KIDS
21:36:24 <itidus20> no that was even WORSE than the brackets
21:36:43 <CakeProphet> itidus20: I'm not really sure what that means. How is a function a function of a function without getting into some higher-order stuff.
21:36:51 <oerjan> itidus20: i do fail to see how that defines "round", though :P
21:36:54 <itidus20> well... i don't know how to say this
21:37:00 <elliott> monqy: help i feelm bad...
21:37:04 <itidus20> i know what i want to say.. i just don' know how to say it
21:37:49 <CakeProphet> itidus20: I'm taking a topology class in a year or so
21:37:58 <CakeProphet> so maybe I'll have a better way of saying by then.
21:38:06 <itidus20> Y n = Angle n ..... Y n != Y n+1 && Y n != Y n-1
21:38:21 <CakeProphet> angles need more than one point... or whatever n is.
21:38:54 <itidus20> i see... i have made a mistake
21:40:08 <oerjan> ^bf ++++++++[->++++++++>++++<<]>++.+++++++++++++..>+.
21:40:09 <itidus20> n is an angle from 0 - 359.59 (lol) ... ( Y n != Y n-1 ) && ( Y n != Y n+1 )
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21:40:26 <zzo38> Wikipedia article about Monad (category theory) also mentions Polyad. But I don't understand category theory much
21:40:38 <oerjan> never heard about polyads
21:41:01 <itidus20> CakeProphet: honestly the logic holds up even if n is a real
21:41:31 <itidus20> yes the logic holds up even though n is a real
21:41:50 <itidus20> but that is a pretty dismal idea of unround
21:41:55 <zzo38> Wikibooks has a article about Haskell/Category_theory so I will try to read that to see if it helps a bit
21:42:06 <itidus20> its like a dog crapped out a theory of unround
21:42:07 <CakeProphet> actually no I'm not going to lie you're wrong but it's no big deal.
21:42:40 <Taneb> I've had an idea for an esolang!
21:42:53 <oerjan> itidus20: your definition doesn't even prevent Y from making large jumps, as long as it repeats the new value at least twice
21:43:05 <Taneb> I'm going to make a spec, then an article
21:43:26 <itidus20> shit i tried to be clever with .59
21:44:02 <CakeProphet> not to mention that the only condition involved an integer increment
21:44:06 <itidus20> n is an integer angle from 0 - 360, where 0 = 360 ... ( Y n != Y n-1 ) && ( Y n != Y n+1 )
21:44:11 <oerjan> Taneb: and then a spectacle
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21:44:23 <CakeProphet> which doesn't make sense when you're talking about a continuous thing like angles.
21:44:48 <itidus20> fine ,, so that solution is rotten to the core
21:45:49 <elliott> CakeProphet: I take it this is a boring troll
21:46:14 <itidus20> i know it should really be statistical analysis of the gradient over various sections of the edge of the circle
21:46:36 <CakeProphet> elliott: how can you deny the clever truth that degrees are superior? There are 360 of them in a circle! it makes perfect sense.
21:46:37 <itidus20> but you don't wanna see me try to imagine that as a formula
21:46:53 <CakeProphet> how many radians are in a circle? like 6.something?
21:47:25 <monqy> I was talking to CakeProphet
21:47:41 <zzo38> I used to win at Word Warp a lot, until they canceled the service.
21:48:07 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/IMAGES3/WordWarp.png
21:48:20 <itidus20> CakeProphet: is the portals cake a false prophet?
21:48:31 <elliott> itidus20: stop stop no stop
21:48:39 <monqy> want me to kill you dead
21:48:39 <elliott> LET THE BAD MEME REMAIN DEAD
21:49:20 <CakeProphet> itidus20: that doesn't evem make sense to me.
21:49:39 <CakeProphet> you know cake is like... flour, sugar, and eggs mostly... right?
21:49:50 <itidus20> CakeProphet: is the Portal cake a false messiah?
21:50:07 <CakeProphet> there is no like... divinity, or soothsaying properties to this mixture.
21:50:16 <oerjan> <Taneb> I've been told I look like a Dr Seuss character
21:50:32 * oerjan recalls that jumping avatar Taneb used to have on the iwc forum
21:50:44 <itidus20> i imagine that you had the name cake long before that silly game ever got released
21:50:59 <monqy> bad portal jokes always make me think
21:50:59 <oerjan> so you are saying it was actually a real movie of you?
21:51:00 <monqy> http://www.girlzngames.com/comics/2010-12-22-Christmas-Gamer-Greetings.jpg
21:51:04 <monqy> do you want me to think that
21:51:16 <monqy> note: all portal jokes are bad
21:51:17 <elliott> i wiped that comic frm my brajisofnj
21:51:21 <monqy> note: do not make me think that
21:51:25 <CakeProphet> itidus20: I'm not really sure which came first but my name choice was unrelated.
21:51:32 <CakeProphet> it had to do with being an adolescent at the time.
21:51:52 <Taneb> oerjan: That is nought but a vague memory now. I don't actually pay attention to my own avatar
21:51:53 <itidus20> I forsee a cake on my birthday!!!!
21:51:53 <CakeProphet> also Portal is an awesome game, memes aside.
21:53:04 <CakeProphet> there's gel! it splooges out of pipes! controlled by valves! how clever Valve.
21:53:07 <Taneb> oerjan: Just remembered it
21:53:40 <Phantom_Hoover> CakeProphet, the memes are just the inevitable result of something funny becoming popular.
21:54:40 <oerjan> elliott: erm what did you expect?
21:55:18 <elliott> blahblah `seq` blahblah `seq`
21:55:31 <elliott> you should be able to have negative operator perecredcecends :(
21:57:14 <CakeProphet> anyone used par in their projects yet? I'm intrigued by it.
21:57:32 <CakeProphet> or is it better to use one of the abstractions that I haven't learned yet?
21:58:26 <lambdabot> The operator `GHC.Prim.seq' [infixr 0] of a section
21:58:32 <elliott> CakeProphet: you generally need more than par...
21:58:39 <elliott> see http://hackage.haskell.org/package/parallel
21:59:10 <oerjan> elliott: `seq` actually has the same fixity as $
21:59:24 <elliott> oerjan: so ?pl should have errored, heh
21:59:27 <elliott> oerjan: oh hmm... infixr 0
21:59:31 <elliott> oerjan: isn't the dollar sign the same?
21:59:36 <elliott> so technically it would work
21:59:44 <oerjan> elliott: READING COMPREHENSION
21:59:47 <elliott> but it'd break if dollar sign's associativeness was ever fixed :)
21:59:53 <elliott> oerjan: yes but that's just fixity
21:59:57 <elliott> is associativeness included in that?
22:00:09 <oerjan> ...in my mind it is...
22:00:19 <lambdabot> Text.Html (<<) :: HTML a => (Html -> b) -> a -> b
22:00:19 <lambdabot> Text.XHtml.Frameset (<<) :: HTML a => (Html -> b) -> a -> b
22:00:20 <lambdabot> Text.XHtml.Strict (<<) :: HTML a => (Html -> b) -> a -> b
22:00:25 <oerjan> associativeness + precedence
22:00:45 <oerjan> elliott: i don't think ?pl knows much about fixities
22:01:07 <oerjan> presumably it assumes infixl 9 for unknowns, if we're lucky
22:01:41 <elliott> monqy: i dont likem how the monadic set and modify functions of data.lens all return the setted/modified value :(
22:03:43 <elliott> monqy: becausem my fuctnioctnosni dont do that :(
22:04:09 <oerjan> ^unscramble fuctnioctnosni
22:04:15 <elliott> reddit user dammitsomuch on quoting people: "And why doesn't he produce his own intellectual property (IP) instead of taking it from others and not giving them credit where credit is due?"
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22:06:08 <Taneb> I'm to the manor born
22:06:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Any questions about what the hell 2001 was about may be directed towards me.
22:06:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: what the hell was 2001 about.
22:06:42 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover: What was with those aeroplanes that hit those towers that year?
22:08:50 -!- n3wborn has left.
22:09:14 <Taneb> Anyway, my new esolang is seeming a bit too easy to use
22:09:51 <Taneb> I'm going to get rid of one symbol and make all the others single characters
22:10:08 <elliott> People who make their esolangs harder to use by making shallow adjustments are the worst.
22:10:14 <Taneb> I was having a joke
22:10:25 <elliott> YOU COULD BE SECRETLY TERRIBLE
22:10:32 <Taneb> But a CAT program in it is:
22:11:28 <elliott> Gregor: You've put it into production immediately?
22:11:47 <Gregor> elliott: It MIGHT be broken :P
22:11:48 <Sgeo_> I never got around to making my "Break hash for output" language
22:11:57 <HackEgo> 1.bluhbluh paste quine2.pl quotese.tmp.tmp. \ babies.env. ps. quine3.pl tekst.warez. \ bin.foo. quine.pl quotes test.c.??????????.
22:12:04 <HackEgo> rm: missing operand. \ Try `rm --help' for more information..
22:12:04 <Gregor> elliott: Apparently I broke `run somehow?
22:12:15 <HackEgo> env: lmao: No such file or directory. \ /bin/sh could not be executed.
22:12:23 <elliott> Gregor: I thought HackEgo didn't send multiple messages ever
22:12:35 <Gregor> elliott: Those aren't, they're backlog from your spammyspam.
22:12:46 <HackEgo> env: areyousure: No such file or directory. \ /bin/sh could not be executed.
22:13:07 <Gregor> Like I was TRYING to say before you so rudely interrupted, UMLBox has a number of known problems, but "can escape" is not one of them.
22:13:29 <elliott> No, but UMLBox has had how many days of testing in comparison to Plash's years? :P
22:13:56 <Gregor> UML, on the other hand, is tested, and I'm really just leaning on it *shrugs*
22:14:05 <elliott> Gregor: Yeah, but the one thing you're doing is providing a way out :-P
22:14:31 <Gregor> How the bork did I break `run???
22:14:58 <Taneb> Okay, thinking about it, my new esolang is too hard to use.
22:15:03 <Taneb> I'm going to add macro support
22:15:14 <Gregor> Ohhh, I know how I broke run >_<
22:15:36 <Sgeo_> Gregor, in a way that lets us take over?
22:15:50 <Gregor> OK, NOW the only issue is that it thinks stdout is a tty :P
22:15:54 <elliott> `run echo diedie die die die
22:16:04 <elliott> Gregor: And that it outputs \n after everything
22:16:21 <Gregor> elliott: \r is what's getting converted into '.'
22:16:22 <Sgeo_> That looks more like a . than a n
22:16:26 <Taneb> `run echo `run echo test
22:16:27 <HackEgo> sh: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``'. \ sh: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file.
22:16:53 <Taneb> `run echo "`run echo test"
22:16:54 <HackEgo> sh: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``'. \ sh: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file.
22:17:06 <Sgeo_> `run echo \`run echo test
22:17:25 <Taneb> I'm no good at this
22:17:31 <Sgeo_> Hey, I wasn't expecting it to do anything special, Taneb was
22:18:39 <elliott> I wonder how one DOES write a bot that responds to itself without being really really stupid.
22:18:58 <Gregor> Odd ... even when I redirect from /dev/null it responds as if it's a tty ...
22:19:06 <elliott> Maybe some sort of message queue that's just processed generically, and messages are pushed to it from various sources (because it has multiple connections to IRC, maybe it can even work over a web client in case IRC ports are blocked??)
22:19:16 <elliott> And then there's one handler that just looks at messages sent by the bot itself, and sends them off for real
22:19:18 <elliott> That'd end up processing itself
22:19:29 <elliott> Gregor: It might be looking at stdout
22:19:41 <Gregor> `run ls < /dev/null | cat
22:19:43 <HackEgo> 1. \ babies. \ bin. \ bluhbluh. \ env. \ foo. \ paste. \ ps. \ quine.pl. \ quine2.pl. \ quine3.pl. \ quotes. \ quotese. \ tekst. \ test.c. \ tmp.tmp. \ warez. \ тэкст.
22:19:45 <elliott> Gregor: Try making a pipe and redirecting the output to that
22:19:50 <zzo38> To see about haskell is: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_11/JavaCPHPRubyHaskell.jpg
22:21:21 <zzo38> HackEgo sends zero-width character before punctuation at the start of a message, and IRC will not echo messages you send to the channel back to yourself
22:22:26 <zzo38> Terrible of what? Or is that a secret?
22:22:32 <Gregor> CakeProphet: That's what you get for not actively prophesizing about bakery goods.
22:22:35 <Taneb> msg hackego `run echo !sh \`run echo test
22:22:39 <CakeProphet> actually I'm secretly awesome. I hide it under a veil of terribleness.
22:22:50 <Taneb> No wait, that won't work even with a slash
22:22:53 <zzo38> Taneb: That isn't it either
22:23:12 <zzo38> It only processes things starting with `
22:23:38 <Taneb> `run echo !sh ech \`run echo test
22:24:16 <zzo38> No it has zero-width character at first
22:24:29 <zzo38> I can see it on my computer even if you cannot
22:24:42 <Taneb> Probably a blessing, thinking about it
22:25:01 <zzo38> It is because I am using a fixed-pitch font.
22:25:05 <Gregor> Is it an ioctl that sets ttys not to use \r or ...
22:25:15 <elliott> zzo38: No, you're just using a font without the appropriate character
22:25:35 <elliott> Gregor: ls... shouldn't be printing \rs.
22:25:49 <elliott> Gregor: Are you using a pty, or just a pipe?
22:25:57 <zzo38> I wrote a program to strip the zero-width character of received messages here it is: http://sprunge.us/VHQU
22:25:58 <Gregor> elliott: I don't think it is, I think it's because the pseudodevice I'm using to communicate between UML and the host is a tty.
22:26:10 <elliott> Gregor: Don't use a tty :-P
22:26:10 <Gregor> Pipes aren't communicated from guest to host.
22:26:14 <elliott> CakeProphet: User mode linux.
22:26:15 <Gregor> elliott: I have no other option.
22:26:24 <CakeProphet> elliott: oh okay that is significantly less frightening.
22:26:25 <elliott> Gregor: Not even a custom-coded fd?
22:26:37 <Gregor> elliott: Within the guest, that FD is gone.
22:26:45 <CakeProphet> I was thinking Unified Modeling Language..
22:26:50 <elliott> Gregor: I mean, can't you write a UML kernel driver
22:26:51 <zzo38> Taneb: If you have PHP you can use this program if you want it to strip the character so it can send anyways
22:26:55 <elliott> That provides a device or FD or whatever
22:26:57 <elliott> That just communicates back in raw
22:27:00 <Gregor> CakeProphet: So, wtf is wmop? :P
22:27:09 <Taneb> I'm doing something strangely on-topic
22:27:14 <Gregor> elliott: Yes, it's called UML's psedo-tty device :P
22:27:18 <Taneb> My esolang spec has reached a shortfall
22:27:18 <CakeProphet> Gregor: the answer to all of your problems.
22:27:20 <Gregor> elliott: I just have to figure out the ioctl to make it raw.
22:27:24 <elliott> Gregor: But that's a tty. :)
22:27:28 <elliott> Gregor: Erm, raw as in uncooked?
22:27:40 <Taneb> I want to say that you can't use some things on their own, you have to use them inside something
22:27:56 <CakeProphet> Gregor: but it sounds like some kind of wireless cleaning program.
22:29:02 <Taneb> Like, you can't say "nand (head) tail", you have to say something like "replace (head) nand (head) tail
22:30:23 <Taneb> The first would return the first element of the main list NAND the second element, the second would replace the first element of the main list with the first element NAND the second element
22:30:46 <CakeProphet> every value should simultaneously have like 20 different contextual values.
22:31:14 <Taneb> They kinda have two
22:31:26 <CakeProphet> two isn't very confusing. that's like Perl.
22:31:46 <Taneb> I'm not sure how to make more without drastically changing the language
22:31:52 <CakeProphet> well, technically Perl probably has close to 5. But only 2 that you need to worry about.
22:32:00 <Gregor> Wow, randomly typing up-enter for no reason = fun
22:32:16 <itidus20> I forsee a cake on my birthday!!!!
22:32:17 <HackEgo> 1 \ babies \ bin \ bluhbluh \ env \ foo \ paste \ ps \ quine.pl \ quine2.pl \ quine3.pl \ quotes \ quotese \ tekst \ test.c \ tmp.tmp \ warez \ тэкст
22:32:34 <CakeProphet> especially when you're using irssi and also in a cybersex channel.
22:32:37 <Taneb> My eighteenth birthday, there will be fireworks
22:32:42 <elliott> Gregor: BTW, getting a terminal uncooked is difficult, but I guess I just mean on input
22:32:47 <elliott> For output it's probably easier
22:32:51 <Taneb> My seventeenth, there may be, but probably not
22:33:02 <elliott> It's like an ioctl and then bit-twiddling five elements of a structure and another ioctl :P
22:33:28 <itidus20> perhaps if i hold up for a while before pressing enter the entertainment value will increase
22:34:05 <itidus20> and he has all the wonder that a dr seuss character tends to have
22:34:06 <zzo38> My IRC client does not implement the functions of the arrow keys. But if I make another one later, that is not written in PHP, maybe I will I don't know for sure
22:34:35 <quintopia> and if it's cheating, why does every mobile browser do it so easily?
22:35:13 * Sgeo_ actually knows the context for that
22:35:35 <itidus20> ill cut and paste the top line of my scrolling window
22:35:36 <Gregor> lololol I'm made of so much fail 8-D
22:35:43 <HackEgo> touch: cannot touch `foo': Permission denied
22:35:54 <elliott> Gregor: Well it's unhackable at least
22:36:02 <Gregor> elliott: TOTALLY - BULLETPROOF
22:36:06 <itidus20> <Phantom_Hoover> That's the client like everyone uses/
22:36:28 <Taneb> Hey, that was to me
22:36:55 <elliott> <itidus20> <Phantom_Hoover> That's the client like everyone uses/
22:38:16 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> <itidus20> <Phantom_Hoover> That's the client like everyone uses/
22:38:30 <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> <itidus20> <Phantom_Hoover> That's the client like everyone uses/
22:38:44 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> <itidus20> <Phantom_Hoover> That's the client like everyone uses/
22:38:56 <itidus20> <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> <itidus20> <Phantom_Hoover> That's the client like everyone uses/
22:39:06 <Taneb> <itidus20> <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> <itidus20> <Phantom_Hoover> That's the client like everyone uses/
22:39:11 <elliott> <Taneb> <itidus20> <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> <itidus20> <Phantom_Hoover> That's the client like everyone uses/
22:39:25 <zzo38> Not everyone uses the same client. Check IRC clients using VERSION command or whatever if you want to, and see they are not all the same
22:40:10 <monqy> sorry I was too busy being out of the loop
22:40:17 <Phantom_Hoover> (It was foraging in a bin and I stuffed a blanket into the top.)
22:43:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Aww awwwww awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
22:43:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: DID YOU BEFRIEND IT
22:43:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Then I realised that the cat was like 3 metres away and had to chase it down and lock it inside.
22:44:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: YOU ARE A BAD PERSON
22:45:30 <CakeProphet> < elliott> <Taneb> <itidus20> <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> <itidus20> <Phantom_Hoover> That's the client like everyone uses/
22:45:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, is it a hard-boiled Scottish highlands mouse?
22:45:43 <CakeProphet> irssi puts a space there for some reason. deal with it.
22:45:47 <elliott> You live in the highlands, obviously.
22:45:50 <Phantom_Hoover> <CakeProphet> < elliott> <Taneb> <itidus20> <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> <itidus20> <Phantom_Hoover> That's the client like everyone uses/ ← END THIS MADNESS
22:45:52 <elliott> CakeProphet: for stupid @ indicators
22:46:43 <CakeProphet> Phantom_Hoover: you and elliott are now tied with MAX PERPETRATION
22:51:18 <CakeProphet> interesting that perpetrator and perpetuator have the same roots yet different meanings.
22:54:23 <Sgeo_> Also, Phantom_Hoover
22:54:43 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> <CakeProphet> < elliott> <Taneb> <itidus20> <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> <itidus20> <Phantom_Hoover> That's the client like everyone uses/ ← END THIS MADNESS <-- why?
22:55:03 <CakeProphet> oerjan: because if we don't you'll ban us for spamming.
22:55:15 <Phantom_Hoover> <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> <CakeProphet> < elliott> <Taneb> <itidus20> <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> <itidus20> <Phantom_Hoover> That's the client like everyone uses/ ← END THIS MADNESS <-- why? ← That was just a sneaky attempt to get someone to continue it.
22:55:19 <oerjan> curses, you revealed my secret plan again
22:55:30 <itidus20> <Phantom_Hoover> <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> <CakeProphet> < elliott> <Taneb> <itidus20> <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> <itidus20> <Phantom_Hoover> That's the client like everyone uses/ ← END THIS MADNESS <-- why? ← That was just a sneaky attempt to get someone to continue it. <-- shit just got real
22:55:33 <CakeProphet> we're going to reach a character limit soon.
22:55:37 <elliott> <itidus20> <Phantom_Hoover> <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> <CakeProphet> < elliott> <Taneb> <itidus20> <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> <itidus20> <Phantom_Hoover> That's the client like everyone uses/ ← END THIS MADNESS <-- why? ← That was just a sneaky attempt to get someone to continue it. <-- shit just got real <-- im running out of space help
22:56:03 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> <itidus20> <Phantom_Hoover> <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> <CakeProphet> < elliott> <Taneb> <itidus20> <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> <itidus20> <Phantom_Hoover> That's the client like everyone uses/ ← END THIS MADNESS <-- why? ← That was just a sneaky attempt to get someone to continue it. <-- shit just got real <-- im running out of space help ← quick hack into Freenode and extend the
22:56:14 <elliott> DAMMIT I WAS TRYING TO FINISH IT MYSELF
22:56:33 <CakeProphet> convert all of the <-- to [#esoteric] convert all of the <-- to
22:57:48 <CakeProphet> everything was going fine until Phantom_Hoover hoover perpetrated the perpetuation of commenting.
22:58:29 <oerjan> ^bf ++++++++[->++++++++<],[>.<,]
22:58:30 <fungot> @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
22:58:47 <oerjan> ^def count bf ++++++++[->++++++++<],[>.<,]
22:59:34 <CakeProphet> ah so it's a byte limit and not a character limit?
23:00:07 <CakeProphet> I guess character limit would be kind of... arbitrary.
23:00:08 <oerjan> CakeProphet: i'd expect so, irc says nothing about charset afaik
23:00:25 <oerjan> and many people don't even use utf-8
23:01:29 <CakeProphet> an infinite number of inputs. actually, up to irc's character limit.
23:04:29 <zzo38> Footnote 5: "Mmmmm... seafood" Foodnote 10: "Mmmmm... "C" food" Footnote 15: "Mmmmm... See? Food."
23:06:32 <CakeProphet> you know, i with an accent. Since apparently people care about that stuff on this channel.
23:07:37 <zzo38> Yes you can use accent marks if you want to. Or just use ASCII if you want to use ASCII only to ensure maximum compatibility
23:08:02 <oerjan> Footnote 33: Mm, SI FUD?
23:11:10 <zzo38> Footnote 5 is based on something my brother said (out of character) during a D&D session. It gave me some idea, and I also decided to make it a footnote (but based on my actions because that is what he was refering to), that hopefully I could make up a use for the other things as relevant footnotes too in later sessions somehow. Which accent mark is it supposed to be? If it comes up I would make that footnote too!
23:12:55 <oerjan> did he eat a mermaid or something
23:13:10 <oerjan> oh wait, out of character
23:13:33 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:14:09 <zzo38> It is a program I wrote for recording D&D sessions.
23:14:28 <CakeProphet> so like... are you guys still understanding what's going on in Homestuck?
23:15:24 <elliott> Everything makes perfect sense.
23:15:49 <oerjan> i understand everything i've read of homestuck
23:15:57 <elliott> (Remember that there is a difference between "things we don't know yet" and "confusing things".)
23:16:10 <zzo38> If you want to know why these things are as they are you can read the entire document by yourself, please. (And, of course if you find a typo please mention it)
23:17:15 <CakeProphet> I guess it's just somewhat harder to follow when I'm waiting for updates. Because I get stuck on the intermediate parts.
23:17:27 <CakeProphet> not to mention with the scratch there's like 5 things goings on at once.
23:18:40 <elliott> Umm, the scrapbooks are over.
23:19:15 <zzo38> Badness ten thousand.
23:23:42 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `mempty' at <interactive>:1:0-5
23:23:42 <lambdabot> Possible fix: add an instance declaration for (Monoid Integer)
23:24:45 <zzo38> I read the informations about monoids in Haskell, it seems like groups in mathematics except for inverses
23:24:57 <elliott> zzo38: um they are literally monoids.
23:25:00 <oerjan> yes, that's what monoids are in math too
23:25:06 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monoid
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23:37:27 <zzo38> I realized that one day I have realized that quasigroups can make latin squares even when I didn't know about quasigroups.
23:38:51 -!- elliott has changed nick to whoosh.
23:38:56 -!- whoosh has changed nick to elliott.
23:40:48 <zzo38> I seem to remember I once wrote a program to compute which cells of a latin square can be used as identity elements
23:41:11 <Gregor> Argh, Linux's capabilities system sucks >_<
23:41:20 <Gregor> You can't be given capabilities if you don't expect them.
23:43:53 <CakeProphet> elliott: ah okay I just got through the scrapbook
23:44:14 <elliott> Then asking whether we're still confused about everything happening seems silly
23:44:32 <elliott> Gregor: (Helpful as always)
23:44:53 <Gregor> elliott: Executable files can have a special flag that essentially says "when executing this, you may keep these capabilities"
23:44:54 <itidus20> so, someone in another channel just said, as a joke: i won't be content until unsigned int x = 0; --x; yields ∞
23:45:04 <Gregor> elliott: But it's 0 for approximately every program ever.
23:45:43 <CakeProphet> itidus20: that's a terrible joke because it makes no sense.
23:46:13 <elliott> Gregor: What do you need capabilities for anyway
23:46:27 <zzo38> Yes this joke is even mathematically wrong as far as I can tell
23:46:28 <elliott> itidus20: That would make unsigned even less like the naturals
23:46:38 <elliott> If there's one thing C doesn't need it's to be less mathematical
23:47:24 <zzo38> CakeProphet: Those makes sense it is good that it does like that
23:47:25 <Gregor> elliott: The reason it can't write files is that I randomized the UID, but UML actually understands permissions.
23:47:45 <CakeProphet> however I could see the 1 causing some issues in... code that I can't think of.
23:47:57 <elliott> Gregor: Use a FUSE filesystem that just mirrors another directory but reassigns all the owners
23:48:08 <Gregor> elliott: Helpful as always.
23:48:10 <elliott> (And handles it on creation too)
23:48:12 <elliott> Gregor: What, that would work
23:48:20 <Gregor> elliott: Yeah, and suck foot :P
23:48:29 <elliott> CakeProphet: product [] is correct
23:48:39 <elliott> If code fails with product [] returning one, that code is really weirdly broken??
23:49:05 <Gregor> elliott: Now you've got FUSE over hostfs :P
23:49:33 <CakeProphet> well say 1 was treated as a special value, then [1] would produce the exceptional case unexpectedly... I dunno.
23:49:50 <elliott> Gregor: Oh no, HackEgo will be so slow, and it is so fast now
23:50:13 <elliott> CakeProphet: [10,0.1] also produces 1
23:50:13 <zzo38> CakeProphet: If for some reason you want that you can use a Maybe type to check if it is empty or not
23:50:27 <elliott> case xs of [] -> ...; _ -> ...
23:50:32 <oerjan> itidus20: that ∞ sounds very much like -1 of signed ints, except for the order. you could probably make many things work by using ordinary bigints but treat negatives as larger than nonnegatives
23:50:40 <Gregor> elliott: OK, let me put it this way, then: Randomizing the IDs is totally pointless in this new design, so I'm just not doing it any more.
23:50:50 <oerjan> (also 2-adic numbers yada yada)
23:50:59 <quintopia> zzo38: hans is holding his own today
23:51:08 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, 2-adic number, it is what I have thinking of too
23:51:34 <quintopia> (he is still slightly behind entering final jeopardy, but he was in the lead for a bit)
23:51:43 <elliott> Gregor: I was going based on the assumption that it was still necessary
23:51:53 <elliott> Gregor: Which seems reasonable, since you did not say it wasn't, and you were having a problem relating to it :-P
23:51:54 <zzo38> quintopia: Don't bother to tell me right now. I will watch Jeopardy later today
23:52:15 <Gregor> elliott: I just came to this realization
23:54:08 <oerjan> hm it would still make multiplication by a negative number reverse the ordering...
23:54:56 <Gregor> So anyway, please try to politely hack hackbot :P
23:55:02 <Gregor> Look for holes (but don't exploit them)
23:55:21 <CakeProphet> fungot: find exploits in hackbot and exploit them.
23:55:21 <fungot> CakeProphet: it is a hate so pure and... pumpkin seeds? well i guess he said no, then,
23:56:36 <itidus20> oerjan: well.. infinity isn't actually a number right?
23:56:45 <itidus20> this is a problem that comes up right?
23:57:01 <oerjan> itidus20: infinity is not a "real number", no
23:57:14 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:57:26 <oerjan> there are a plethora of different mathematical objects that can be called infinity, though
23:57:40 <itidus20> i know that between real numbers n and n+1 there can be infinite divisions
23:57:55 <oerjan> CakeProphet: both ... :P
23:58:09 <elliott> there are as many reals between any two given reals as there are reals in total
23:58:45 <itidus20> elliott: but there is no total, right?
23:59:39 <elliott> itidus20: there are beth-one of them if that's what you mean