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00:01:28 <itidus20> oerjan: i figure that all procedural generation is deterministic
00:01:47 <itidus20> hummm but the source of seeds might not be though...
00:02:06 <itidus20> and if the seeds are nondeterministic then the procedure won't be
00:02:07 <pikhq> oerjan: I'd be willing to bet it's a PRNG seeded with the date.
00:02:25 <pikhq> Well, rather, transform based on the output thereof.
00:03:02 <itidus20> but back to monqys point.. on the surface i can pretend to know what i am talking about
00:05:31 <oerjan> pikhq: i think that's called a "hash" :P
00:09:57 <oerjan> btw it's a commonly believed conjecture in computation complexity theory that it is possible to remove true randomness from any algorithm without significantly [weasel word] decreasing its power
00:10:09 <oerjan> *computational complexity
00:10:49 <itidus20> as an example of my ignorance on the matter i certainly haven't studied PRNGs
00:10:58 <itidus20> i've only called them as pre-written functins
00:11:11 <oerjan> i think it follows from some other widely believed conjectures of similar hardness to P vs. NP
00:12:28 <oerjan> but there have also been several concrete derandomization constructions of particular algorithms, most famously perhaps the AKS prime checking algorithm
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00:13:46 <itidus20> i would go so far as to say that an individuals perception of a procedurally generated work is linked to concepts of a society's shibbaleths
00:13:58 <oerjan> (in that case the "without significantly" means something like "still polynomial time but too slow in practice")
00:14:56 <oerjan> itidus20: the question i'm having is whether there has yet been any procedurally generated work whose value goes beyond just "look at this clever procedural generation"
00:15:19 <itidus20> that, as a listerner, a person conceives of a speaker independantly of the words he speaks
00:15:19 <oerjan> which in itself _can_ be amazing, but leaves something to desire
00:15:38 <itidus20> and so.. procedurally generated words can only resolve to hollow speakers
00:16:07 <evincar> This seems like a conversation related to strong AI.
00:16:21 <oerjan> evincar: was just about to say :P
00:16:22 <evincar> If the program that created the work is intelligent, it will have value.
00:16:56 <oerjan> otoh procedurally generated works _without_ AI can still showcase the beauty of mathematics
00:16:58 <itidus20> but what if the program is not intelligent
00:17:18 <oerjan> and in some way, perhaps that's all they can do
00:17:26 <evincar> oerjan: True, but it's also tied to the mind of the creator.
00:17:29 <itidus20> what if it just arrived at pseudo-intelligent displays by luck
00:17:37 <evincar> Isn't that what we've done?
00:18:09 <evincar> Evolution implies vaguely deterministic luck.
00:19:15 <oerjan> yes but we're still intelligent at least some of the time :P
00:19:38 <itidus20> like fungot could say something which in an intelligent speakers mouth would be meaningful
00:19:38 <fungot> itidus20: this is it, like an apple or a cunning prankster than a common sort.
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00:21:06 <oerjan> but if a work is long, achieving something which looks consistently intelligent by chance has vanishingly low probability
00:21:24 <itidus20> any attempt to construct an anthropomorphic speaker in my imagination around fungot is fanciful and illusionary
00:21:24 <fungot> itidus20: this is a really hot look for a stronger! ive been pretty busy in a couple minutes, and more importantly, it pushes the cruxite to the last card. you then quickly adjust the elevation by approximately what it is now!
00:22:16 <itidus20> but i do it any way.. and that is surely a sign of worry that i cannot resist it
00:23:10 <itidus20> i mean there is no framework in language to describe something like that
00:23:32 <itidus20> it looks like a duck, it acts like a duck.. and yet it is very far from being a duck
00:23:54 <evincar> As humans, we like lending meaning to random patterns.
00:23:55 <oerjan> hm? i'd imagine fungot's success is precisely because it implements a framework of language - if a very shallow one
00:23:56 <fungot> oerjan: try again. and a whole other issue. guess i can't really do. hell fucking yes a few more things we can deploy but some things we can deploy but some things we can deploy but some things we can deploy but some things we can deploy but some things we can deploy but some things we can deploy but some things we can deploy but some things we can deploy but some things we can deploy but some things we can deploy but some thin
00:24:07 <evincar> It's an advantage to see things that aren't there.
00:24:14 <evincar> Rather than missing things that are.
00:24:44 <oerjan> yep you don't want to mistake a lion for a funnily shaped flower :P
00:25:10 <oerjan> evincar: common fungot bug in how it selects the next word
00:25:10 <fungot> oerjan: try again. and a whole sword bird and now, to make it, and the only to let you in on a little secret a8out the lore, and are, going a little far and its kind of a reckless use of
00:25:59 <oerjan> it sometimes considers one alternative too strongly
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00:26:49 <zzo38> Make a book by typing a lot of your own things and then inserting outputs from fungot and adding stuff to make it fit into your sentences and paragraphs and so on.
00:27:25 <evincar> Intelligent intervention in random output often produces interesting results.
00:30:59 <itidus20> someone once told me that art is representation and that it doesn't hide what it is
00:32:02 <itidus20> so if I say fungot is art.. then theres no problem
00:32:03 <fungot> itidus20: so it was pretty good. well, i can't really do. hell fucking yes. it is. hub sn_lab0413. it is a good idea.
00:32:26 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher homestuck* ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
00:33:43 <itidus20> but if fungot is passed off as an actual human, with human rights and human access to resources then trouble brews
00:33:44 <fungot> itidus20: your handy ruler. you are quite a sn0b mm, okay?
00:34:48 <itidus20> now if he was actually intelligent then that would be a different story
00:37:59 <itidus20> my fear is that of procedural generation being used to cut production costs where they cannot really be cut
00:39:27 <itidus20> ok --- i have said my 2 cents on the issue. fungot, any last words?
00:39:28 <fungot> itidus20: not that it would actually bother pitying you. whatever your adventure throws at you im sure shell, and limbering up for a silly cookie dance. or it will 8e the most powerful adversary you have ever had a physical card for the stack or queue. items can be removed the card from the card. you've always wondered what the code is.
00:40:25 <evincar> You've always wondered what the code is indeed.
00:41:48 <itidus20> i will take back a bit of what i have said and say that whoever said the procedures aren't good enough has made a good comment
00:42:44 <itidus20> ok guys, do you want to know what procedural generation i would like to do?
00:43:11 <itidus20> i would like to procedurally generate graphics for scribblenauts
00:44:02 <itidus20> its interesting that in some article, the writer said "they said they didn't procedurally generate the graphics, how could they?"
00:48:28 <evincar> Hmm. Do you suppose you could set up a genetic system to evolve game ideas?
00:48:58 <evincar> Your fitness function would be based on manual scoring of playthroughs.
00:49:12 <evincar> It wouldn't give you complete games, but perhaps prototypes.
00:52:58 <evincar> There has been some success using genetic algorithms to fix bugs in C code.
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01:03:33 <itidus20> evincar: i don't think there is any escaping the fact that humans enjoy interacting with each other and feeling each other in our works
01:04:15 <itidus20> like when people write reviews for things... it is assumed the author can read the review.. but an author can't take direct credit for something which occurs amid a procedurally generated experience
01:04:58 <Sgeo> If the author made the procedures
01:05:16 <MDude> While that's true, I don't think it would put procedural generation in a positive like in the absolute sense, just relativly less of a positive one.
01:05:41 <MDude> Procedural generation is genrally meant to work a bit like nature.
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01:06:22 <MDude> I think a problem that hurts a lot of procedural generation is the lack of history.
01:06:24 <itidus20> but i am indulging in explicitly stating what it is not so good at
01:07:15 <MDude> For the lack of history part, a procedurally generated dwelling isn't really the result of it's inhabitants.
01:07:50 <itidus20> the world doesn't consist entirely of language.. and human authors add meaning to language through their other experiences
01:08:51 <itidus20> in other words, you can't learn anything from procedurally generated content beyond the fascinating way in which it is structured
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01:09:22 <itidus20> you can learn how the patterns work perhaps
01:09:35 <itidus20> like for example playing tetris over and over you can improve
01:11:03 <itidus20> like you can't learn anything from a bot except that which it has been given..
01:11:15 <itidus20> oh maybe you can learn some things...........
01:11:20 <MDude> That is true as long as the procedure does not include a simulation of the subject of the writing, but except in a very shallow sense this is probably true for most if not all generators.
01:11:43 <itidus20> i suppose you could indeed learn grammar structure from a bot
01:11:58 <evincar> Only if it were actually a well-designed bot. :P
01:12:00 <itidus20> but most of its sentences would lack actual meaning
01:12:10 <MDude> One thing I'd like to do some day is make a bot that talks about talking.
01:12:15 <itidus20> so ok not learn nothing.. but you can't get a rich learning
01:12:17 <MDude> THen you could talk about talking about anything.
01:12:18 <zzo38> OK, finally my Constantinople compiler is completed and it works good now.
01:12:18 <evincar> Besides, grammar is emergent behaviour, not formal structure.
01:14:21 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/prog/Constantinople.zip
01:14:56 <zzo38> Do you think it is good now?
01:17:06 <zzo38> This program is public domain.
01:18:13 <zzo38> I suppose you might change the program to do actual bits I/O if you wanted to do so.
01:20:06 <MDude> So wait, does the current implementation not require brackets, from what I read in the talk page?
01:21:12 <zzo38> Yes, it does not require brackets. Actually it won't even accept brackets (they are useless anyways in this programming language)
01:21:38 <MDude> I see, it's jsut the the distrption on the wiki still mentions them.
01:22:32 <MDude> Without punctuation, it'd be easy to make a version that accepts programs written in Sarus.
01:22:33 <zzo38> Yes it does still mention them. It was probably intended to use ( ) to make not ambiguous, but it doesn't actually help make anything not ambiguous or help anything else either. What does help is what I mentioned, which is using "with" to separate two arguments.
01:22:46 <zzo38> MDude: What does "Sarus" mean?
01:23:09 <MDude> It's an artificial speaking language based partly on Soresol.
01:23:21 <MDude> It's used in a series of cartoons.
01:24:35 <zzo38> You can try that if you want to; it is in the public domain. You can make whatever changes you want to make. However I would like it if you did not misrepresent it as the original program.
01:25:51 <MDude> I'll try not to misrepresent it then.
01:25:56 <MDude> Also, I'd have to learn Haskel.
01:26:05 <MDude> I guess I was going to eventually.
01:27:10 <zzo38> Do you even have GHC installed in your computer? Note, it includes a file called "Constantinople.cmd" which is a Windows shell script for compiling the program, it is short and you can make a similar short shell script in UNIX, too.
01:27:44 <zzo38> (You will also have to modify the shell script if you are using a different Haskell compiler than GHC)
01:28:56 <MDude> I don't have any version of Haskel, so I might as well go with GHC so i can try out the language int he first place.
01:29:10 <zzo38> Actually, I didn't give my compiler any special name other than just "Constantinople compiler", so it is not difficult to avoid misrepresentation
01:29:44 <zzo38> This program also requires Parsec.
01:30:00 <oerjan> i do not believe template haskell is supported by any compiler other than ghc
01:30:49 <zzo38> Then you do need GHC, because this program also uses Template Haskell.
01:31:32 <oerjan> parsec should be included automatically if you use the Haskell Platform
01:32:05 <MDude> Yeah, the GHC site jsut reccomended I get that.
01:32:29 * MDude recoils at the sight of pink flowers.
01:33:01 <zzo38> Do not worry because the flowers are not part of the Haskell program as far as I know.
01:34:15 <zzo38> If you want to print out the Constantinople compiler, you also need the "birdstyle.tex" file which I can also give to you if you ask.
01:35:11 <MDude> I don't even know what printing out a compiler means.
01:35:29 <MDude> My Little Program: Functions are Math-ic
01:35:57 <zzo38> I mean printing out the program. It is a .lhs file which can be parsed by TeX to convert into the device independent printout file.
01:37:21 <zzo38> The extension .lhs just means that lines starting with > are program codes and everything else is ignored by the Haskell compiler
01:42:09 <evincar> tl;dr: LHS = Literate Haskell Source
01:42:26 <evincar> Also LHS = Left-Hand Side.
01:42:59 <MDude> GHC = Global Hocky Club
01:44:54 <zzo38> Tell me if you have any problems with this program.
01:48:45 <zzo38> The number of pages and the number of chapters of this program are both five, as it turns out.
01:53:46 <zzo38> Is the program strange a bit to you?
01:55:05 <MDude> I haven't checked it out yet because I forgot what I was doing.
01:55:12 <MDude> Now I rememdered I already installed Haskell.
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01:58:54 <PatashuWarg> esoteric music? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_KeybhGDDU&feature=related
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02:01:54 <PatashuWarg> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUB83_F-SmE&feature=related this piece is lol
02:04:10 <MDude> Could not find Main.o?
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02:15:35 <MDude> I have no idea if the compiler worked.
02:15:52 <MDude> Or what I'm suppossed to do with the .hi and .o files.
02:16:35 <MDude> Oh wait there's my problem.
02:17:06 <MDude> FOr some reason I thought you meant it was a compiler for turnign the lhs file into an exe that can in turn be sued on Constantinople source files.
02:17:38 <MDude> When instead the .bat is what's used on the files written in Constantinople.
02:19:35 <MDude> I'll test it out with the cat program.
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02:21:22 <MDude> Er, I mean the .cmd.
02:28:18 <MDude> C:\Users\MDude\Desktop\Constantinople>cat.txt.exe
02:28:18 <MDude> I like having a cat.
02:28:18 <MDude> cat.txt.exe: Constantinople.lhs:(144,5)-(145,51): Non-exhaustive patterns in fun
02:29:05 <MDude> I'm not sure if that's anI/O problem or not.
02:31:17 <shachaf> No, it's a non-exhaustive patterns problem.
02:31:30 <MDude> I don't know what that means.
02:31:47 <MDude> I did get a trivial program of "out head" to work.
02:32:00 * shachaf can't parse that sentence.
02:32:08 <MDude> In consists of the single line "out head".
02:32:21 <MDude> It outputs the initial contents of head, which is 0.
02:32:36 <shachaf> If you define a function like "foo (Just x) = x", and then you call it with Nothing, that's a non-exhaustive pattern.
02:32:43 <shachaf> You don't define what foo of Nothing is.
02:32:49 <MDude> It's for zzo38's language Constantinople.
02:32:59 <MDude> Which I don't think even has functoins.
02:33:13 <shachaf> I thought this was a Haskell program.
02:33:27 <MDude> The interpreter is written in Haskell.
02:33:37 <MDude> I meant I/O problem as in the implementation of it.
02:33:39 <shachaf> So the interpreter is broken.
02:34:10 <MDude> zzo38 mentioned bitwise I/O wasn't present, but I thought that migth have meant I/O was bytewise instead.
02:34:26 <MDude> Like how other languages save up untilt hey reach a full byte.
02:34:42 <shachaf> Non-exhaustive patterns means that the Haskell program doesn't take some possibility into account.
02:34:50 <oerjan> MDude: it wants input as digits 0 and 1, i think
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02:35:00 * oerjan hasn't read the final version
02:35:16 <evincar> It's only on #esoteric that we talk about the linguistic necessity of buffering bits till we have a full byte.
02:35:41 <MDude> Yeah, I was running off the idea that my input would be converted to strings of bits.
02:35:46 <shachaf> Like http://www.samuelhughes.com/boof/index.html ?
02:35:51 <MDude> I'll try with actual 1s and 0s.
02:36:01 <augur> did someone say linguistic
02:36:32 <oerjan> augur: no. nothing to see here, move on...
02:37:53 <MDude> Ok, no cat is working, though the interpreter still throws an error tacked on to the end of the output.
02:39:47 <oerjan> hm does Constantinople actually handle eof by the spec...
02:41:12 <evincar> augur: Computer-linguistics. Though I'm always up for a chat about the natural kind.
02:41:26 <evincar> People on #conlang are surprisingly unmotivated to talk about language.
02:41:41 <augur> thats why they're in #conlang
02:41:42 <oerjan> MDude: indeed it doesn't, so that's not zzo38's fault
02:41:44 <augur> and not #linguistics
02:42:06 <MDude> Well I'm not sure how I'd give it input that doesn't end in a eof.
02:42:28 <oerjan> well it shouldn't err out if you don't read that far
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03:14:22 <MDude> Well I have no idea how to avoid that.
03:17:40 <oerjan> it certainly would be hard with a cat program :P
03:18:25 <MDude> Well I mean I'm not usre how to define input length at all.
03:19:04 <oerjan> um i simply mean to use an input format which doesn't require you to know what's beyond the input you actually use
03:19:29 <MDude> So a predefined fixed length?
03:20:32 <oerjan> not necessarily. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prefix_code
03:21:32 <oerjan> except for the entire input, not just each word of it
03:23:03 <oerjan> for example, unlambda program code has that property (ignoring trailing whitespace and comments)
03:28:23 <MDude> I'll have to see if I can make something liek that in the morning, then.
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03:50:59 <Sgeo> Big, big deep breath. Deep down inside you there is a submarine. It has a tongue. Exhale."
03:54:31 <coppro> ohgod sgeo found cuil theory
03:55:23 <Sgeo> coppro, I'm just quoting from Why's Poignant Guide to Ruby
03:55:42 <Sgeo> _why clearly found cuil theory
03:56:50 <coppro> umm... ignore that sentence
04:02:41 <Sgeo> I think this is a bit outdated
04:04:07 <Sgeo> Yes, Dr. Cham now does something different from what _why said
04:04:13 <Sgeo> his niece Hannah.
04:04:23 <Sgeo> http://ideone.com/PULCM
04:04:41 <Sgeo> According to _why, it should be Yes, Dr. Cham electrocuted his niece Hannah.
04:06:52 <evincar> Well, "should" in the factual sense, not the normative.
04:07:16 <evincar> I think it makes more sense for a do-block to introduce a new scope for its identifiers.
04:08:14 <evincar> I'm glad _why disappeared. I go by Why as well. :P
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04:10:10 <zzo38> Hello, world!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
04:12:00 <zzo38> The cannot find Main.o is not a problem; the .cmd file tries to delete it at first to force that file to be recompiled without necessarily recompiling the other file.
04:12:00 <Gregor> Hello, exclamation points!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
04:12:31 <zzo38> But, yes, my program does use actual character 0 and 1 for I/O. A future version might make it proper bitwise I/O, though.
04:14:57 <zzo38> You will get the nonexhaustive pattern errors in two cases: One is if you input anything other than 0 or 1 (this includes the newline at the end of the first input line). Another is if you try to store a bit in a tail of a list.
04:18:02 <zzo38> Trying to use the "nand" command as the argument to "in" or as the first argument to "replace", although it that case it has nothing to do with nonexhaustive patterns; I did explicitly type "undefined" there in the program because that operation is not defined.
04:19:07 <oerjan> zzo38: one may also use error for a more precise error message
04:19:35 <evincar> So what shall I do this evening? Work on a little language, or write?
04:21:34 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes I know that too. I just didn't bother putting it in. For the case of writing a non-list to the tail, that is also, what would be called in mathematics, a value that the function is not defined on; although in this case the reason Haskell sees that is due to nonexhaustive patterns instead.
04:22:52 <zzo38> evincar: I don't know. What little language did you want to work on, and what did you want to write?
04:26:22 <evincar> zzo38: It's a small but versatile embedded language intended for game development, based on Self. As for the writing, I was thinking of working out a system of magic and seeing what interesting fantasy world sprung up from it.
04:27:50 <zzo38> evincar: These are interesting things. Maybe you can do both, one today and one tomorrow. If you have time.
04:29:20 <zzo38> I would like to see some of the ideas of both these things.
04:29:41 <evincar> I guess I'll work on the language because it's more fun to show off, and might be useful to someone.
04:31:10 <evincar> The idea is to have a very minimalistic language that's high-performance and easy to embed.
04:32:22 <evincar> When it comes to games especially, your only choices for good pre-existing scripting languages are Lua and Python.
04:32:51 <evincar> I think they're too big, as scripting languages go.
04:33:01 <evincar> Especially in a high-performance system.
04:34:18 <zzo38> In the case of MegaZeux, it has Robotic built-in, however I have also added Forth (but which is also used in a different way than the Robotic codes; Forth codes are sun synchronously and are placed in an external file and are global to the game, while Robotic codes are asynchronous and can be specific to objects on the board). Forth does run faster (I have tested it).
04:35:32 <evincar> Stack-based languages are good for embedding, but I think people find them cumbersome.
04:37:45 <zzo38> Make up your own and see if it is good.
04:38:35 <zzo38> When making a game with MegaZeux, I often use both the Robotic codes and the Forth codes, for different reasons.
04:39:18 <evincar> The language I'm working on is object-oriented, based on Smalltalk and Self. Uses prototypal inheritance rather than classes, and libffi for external bindings.
04:41:43 <evincar> Well, I'm not getting anything done as long as I hang around here talking, so goodnight.
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04:46:15 <zzo38> quintopia: How can I do so? I have not seen your game. However, I do have a program to make up a random name of computer games
04:46:48 <quintopia> its about robots and factories and symmetry and asymmetry and puzzles
04:47:58 <zzo38> No I cannot. But I can try. Does "Factories Symmetry" works?
05:04:24 <itidus20> heres an amusing application of procedural generation i just stumbled upon by chance http://turnyournameintoaface.com/
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05:25:33 <oerjan> hm that was actually a funny one
05:27:00 <quintopia> i agree, although considering it involves aids, it'd be the worse failure ever if it weren't
05:27:25 <quintopia> if you get aids in apples to apples, you've won the hand
06:30:11 <quintopia> zzo38: what does your program suggest?
06:30:51 <zzo38> quintopia: The program currently can take no parameters, so it generates completely at random. (It is possible to make a version with parameters if you want)
06:32:16 <zzo38> quintopia: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/furry/webform.php?which=video_game.txt¶=&count=1 (The "Parameter" field has no effect currently.)
06:33:25 <quintopia> wow these namees are great but they are three words long
06:33:37 <quintopia> i want a made up name that is one word long :P
06:34:09 <zzo38> You sometimes get names that are only two words long. However, there is no one word long.
06:38:13 <fizzie> "Tiger Woods' Battle Girl" sounds rather multidisciplinary.
06:40:35 <oerjan> truly a household name
06:42:52 <oerjan> not in EgoBot to my knowledge
06:43:41 <quintopia> so do you like robotobor or robotopia better
06:44:20 <Deewiant> Robotopia is already the name of a game
06:44:46 <zzo38> Therefore, call it Robotobor (unless that is also already taken)
06:47:38 <fizzie> Robotorpor. (Of which Google says: "Did you mean to search for: roboraptor".)
06:52:31 <quintopia> nah fizzie, these robots are very active
06:53:03 <fizzie> Those robots mean business.
06:53:22 <quintopia> also, when i was a kid i always wanted a roboraptor
06:54:14 <quintopia> i wanted the anamatronic t-rex, which was $216
07:19:45 <zzo38> I used a different algorithm for making name of my character in D&D game, I have done so the past few times I have created a character (each time for a separate campaign; none of my characters have died, and if it is it might be due to sacrifice (even in chess you can find sacrifice useful)).
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08:50:37 <Taneb> One thing: don't pothole links to user pages
08:51:09 <asiekierka> i'm adding some stuff to the syntax i find missing
08:57:51 <asiekierka> ok, not done as the wiki ate my entry, somehow
08:59:13 <asiekierka> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Binodu#Examples
08:59:28 <asiekierka> writing a more informative example: XOR gate!
08:59:38 <Taneb> I'm going to write a shorter hello world
09:01:32 <asiekierka> (multiple comparator/action pairs are allowed in a single node
09:07:38 <asiekierka> little bug, XOR1 should be Automatic Output
09:08:04 <asiekierka> A to toggle reg. 1, Z to toggle reg. 2, X to XOR
09:09:28 <asiekierka> i would add code to make it smaller, but then, I was aiming for minimalism
09:10:09 <asiekierka> along with Stop there should be StopOnce
09:10:18 <asiekierka> actually no, that defeats one of the tricks you need to do
09:10:25 <asiekierka> the change i want to do is add OutputOnChange
09:10:31 <asiekierka> so it only outputs if a store has been executed
09:18:40 <asiekierka> Taneb try to figure out how this LFSR works: http://pastebin.com/0cR0GSJ5
09:20:26 <Taneb> It fires LFSRbit3 and then halts
09:21:07 <Taneb> Damn, didn't see that automatic
09:21:47 <asiekierka> it's so simple, looks much simpler than Brainfuck
09:22:15 <asiekierka> LFSRinit is only so it doesn't halt indefinitely
09:22:40 <asiekierka> though i'll add a Default command right now
09:23:13 <Taneb> I've written a 112 line Hello World
09:24:27 <asiekierka> i want to see what complexity have you done
09:24:29 <Taneb> Still working on it
09:24:38 <Taneb> Gonna take out a few redundant nodes
09:25:04 <asiekierka> don't you like how my language is simply complex
09:25:12 <asiekierka> right! i need to take a break pretty soon
09:25:55 <asiekierka> then i thought "What if I make it into an esolang?"
09:26:01 <asiekierka> then, many complexifications, changes and simplifications later
09:26:45 <Taneb> http://pastebin.com/ZxJTT1st
09:27:21 <asiekierka> also Compare is required (even if empty) to trigger an Action
09:27:41 <asiekierka> i mean, this part is interpreter-dependent
09:28:45 <Taneb> The first 7 is a double seven
09:29:02 <Taneb> So, the first time 7 is ran, it launches itself again
09:29:04 <asiekierka> the 7 would fire a Seven then go to its own action
09:29:20 <asiekierka> wouldnt it be shorter to add two "Fire Seven" for the first time?
09:29:34 <Taneb> I was being clever
09:29:47 <Taneb> Same with L, actually
09:29:47 <asiekierka> well i wasn't being clever and being clever didnt give you that much gain
09:30:58 <itidus20> so on an unrelated subject, i sketched an amusing 3d snakes and ladders out of boredom
09:31:16 <itidus20> where each row is higher than the last, as if climbing a hill
09:31:46 <asiekierka> i wonder what paradigm this fits into, i fany
09:34:55 <itidus20> I find this binodu easy on the eyes.. i don't like looking at a soup of ^^&*^&*)(&*(%@$%^
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09:45:31 <asiekierka> when im back, im going to work on an interp
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09:52:03 <Taneb> Got it down to 74 lines
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10:19:27 <coppro> whatever would we do without BRAKCETs
10:51:53 <Taneb> Can't get it down any further
10:53:35 <asiekierka> but that only made it stay at 74 lines
10:54:07 <asiekierka> so now i'll be working on the interpreter
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12:26:34 <Vorpal> asiekierka, any idea about the computational class of binodu?
12:26:46 <Taneb> I'm pretty sure it's a FSA
12:27:10 <Taneb> You can only have a finite number of nodes, which only have a finite number of values
12:28:18 <asiekierka> though simulating other languages, given finite memory, should be possible
12:28:28 <asiekierka> one way to do it is re-create all logic gates and use that
12:28:34 <Taneb> That makes it a very nice finite state automaton
12:28:50 <asiekierka> i'm pretty sure a Boolfuck interpreter (for finite memory) is doable
12:28:59 <asiekierka> i'm considering adding a Clone command
12:29:07 <asiekierka> that clones the node executing it into a new node
12:29:16 <asiekierka> but then, that would also be finite as you can only specify so many naes
12:29:18 <Vorpal> asiekierka, I don't see any input?
12:30:14 <Vorpal> asiekierka, you call them nodes. Why?
12:30:26 <asiekierka> the entire concept for the language came when I was reading a book on AI
12:30:41 <asiekierka> after half an hour i came up with this
12:39:30 <asiekierka> alright! coded the code for finding and adding nodes
12:39:37 <asiekierka> now i just have to FILL THEM WITH CONTENT
12:42:59 <fizzie> (Reference to: http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2001/04/13 )
12:47:16 <asiekierka> it already has the Interpreter class and all the sub-classes (coding in java because i'm lazy)
12:47:43 <asiekierka> now i'm halfway through coding the code for parsing them (2nd stage)
12:47:49 <asiekierka> first it has to find all the nodes for the Fire command to work right
12:47:53 <asiekierka> then it parses them to fill in the classes
12:51:07 <asiekierka> right, now i'm parsing everything (except actions)
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12:59:20 <fizzie> Worse than 24, if you want to be philosophical about it.
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13:05:07 <asiekierka> and the compiled classes seem to weigh 11.7KB
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13:07:25 <asiekierka> right. it seems to run node "hey" ad infinitum
13:11:12 <asiekierka> 3) debug the part that you suspect failing the most
13:12:52 <asiekierka> your little Hello, World! somehow prints
13:13:12 <asiekierka> i'll send you the half-finished interpreter in a sef
13:13:13 <Taneb> No exclamation mark?
13:13:27 <asiekierka> (lacks working Input, that's why half-working)
13:14:22 <asiekierka> your 100-line Hello World is even better
13:14:31 <asiekierka> by now i'm not sure if it's an interpreter bug
13:15:10 <asiekierka> i quite honestly think it's some bug in the interpreter
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13:17:42 <Taneb> What was the problem
13:17:55 <asiekierka> but my original hello world kills the entire interpreter
13:19:02 <PatashuWarg> make it output what it thinks the program is
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13:30:11 <asiekierka> but it finds the correct amount of strings
13:30:15 <asiekierka> which makes me think the issue is somewhere else
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13:31:47 <asiekierka> but it turns out my Hello World spitted out garbage
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13:32:58 <asiekierka> so your code is much closer to the real thing
13:36:03 <Taneb> I think I have the exclamation mark fixed
13:36:41 <Taneb> Try adding "Fire TwoFalse
13:36:50 <Taneb> Fire TwoTrue" before the stop
13:39:47 <asiekierka> now i need to implement the input code. somehow.
13:40:08 <Taneb> I was outputting 0x33 instead of 0x33
13:42:06 <Taneb> I was doing 3 rather than 21
13:42:17 <Taneb> 2 times mistake combo
13:52:57 <asiekierka> oh shit i forgot to code in nested compares
13:54:42 <asiekierka> but i'll need to code in space counting and whatnot...
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14:48:30 <Vorpal> <asiekierka> i'll just JAR it up <-- err
14:50:49 <Taneb> asiekierka: question. What order are automatic nodes fired in?
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15:18:12 <asiekierka> Taneb from first found in text to last found in text
15:18:23 <asiekierka> i wanted it done quickly and not felt like learning Python
15:18:41 <asiekierka> now i see myself rewriting the iterative approach i have now into a recursive approach
15:24:31 <ais523> I'm not sure if it's specified to, but interps are certainly allowed to, and I suspect most of the big-name ones do
15:27:46 <Taneb> asiekierka: logic gates are easy, I've made NAND and XOR just now
15:27:49 <Taneb> But I have to go now
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16:20:30 <Taneb> Would I recieve death threats if I made Ook++?
16:21:09 <ais523> not from me, I'd just look down at you disapprovingly
16:21:49 <CakeProphet> type World i a = [Map i a]; type WorldTransformer t a = Map i (a -> a)
16:21:55 <Taneb> But orang-utans also say Eek!
16:22:24 <CakeProphet> transform :: World i a -> WorldTransformer i b -> World i b
16:24:52 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `e_11007009' at ...
16:25:18 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `e_11007009' at ...
16:27:48 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `e_11007009' at ...
16:31:00 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `)'
16:31:10 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a = a -> f a1
16:31:29 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a = a -> a1
16:33:12 <lambdabot> [(0,0),(0,1),(0,2),(0,3),(0,4),(0,5),(0,6),(0,7),(0,8),(0,9),(0,10),(0,11),...
16:33:48 <lambdabot> No instance for (Control.Monad.Logic.Class.MonadLogic ((->) [b]))
16:38:54 <Taneb> I've had an idea for an esolang!
16:39:05 <Taneb> Where nothing is defined except for error handling
16:39:06 <CakeProphet> would be nice if MonadLogic had interleaving for applicative or something.
16:39:33 <CakeProphet> of course you have to define some other things. the errors themselves.
16:40:08 <CakeProphet> also, it would be interesting if you could somehow improve on typical exception handling.
16:40:50 <CakeProphet> will the exceptions take parameters? if so you could pass other exceptions as parameters.
16:40:55 <Gregor> <Taneb> Would I recieve death threats if I made Ook++? // I will kill you for even SUGGESTING such a thing.
16:41:52 <CakeProphet> Taneb: also you probably need some kind of try-catch construct that can catch its own raises, to allow recursive computations.
16:45:11 <CakeProphet> but then you still have to figure out conditionals
16:45:37 <CakeProphet> maybe you'd need one value that isn't an exception, and some kind of primitive that implements conditionals on that distinction
16:48:17 <CakeProphet> well I guess try-catch is a kind of conditional.
16:53:05 <CakeProphet> that either return values or raise exceptions. though actually you could make them all void, you just need a way to abstract.
16:53:26 <CakeProphet> functions that either do nothing or raise exceptions would be interesting.
16:55:16 <CakeProphet> with the recursive catch it would be very easy to implement Peano arithmetic.
16:57:29 <CakeProphet> so essentially the exceptions act as your data structures
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17:03:01 <Taneb> How would that work?
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17:05:54 <Taneb> <CakeProphet> a "lower" primitive would be interesting.
17:06:07 <CakeProp1et> 13:04 < CakeProphet> essentially it works like raise in reverse. It takes an exception back to the previous try-catch
17:06:10 <CakeProp1et> 13:05 < CakeProphet> or.... I guess raises an exception if there is no lower level. :P
17:06:18 <CakeProp1et> 13:05 < CakeProphet> or does nothing in that case.
17:07:12 <cheater_> i'm totally programming computers with my mouse
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17:09:55 <CakeProphet> an n-tuple would just be an anonymous n-argument exception.
17:10:58 <derrik> you guys are over the head of average joe
17:11:23 <CakeProphet> really, I'm starting to think that exception handling essentially just adds a second call stack.
17:11:29 <Taneb> We are #esoteric, derric
17:11:53 <CakeProphet> it would be interesting to have more than two call stacks, that you could name.
17:12:25 <derrik> awesomities upon awesomities
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17:13:52 <asiekierka> Taneb - after lots of hacking the recursive parser seems to work
17:14:00 <asiekierka> granted, it's not any kind of good code, but it WORKS and i'm tired anyway
17:14:07 <asiekierka> i just have to check if recursivity works
17:14:12 <CakeProphet> asiekierka: you should learn Haskell, right now.
17:14:47 <HackEgo> 14) <fungot> GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know. \ 53) <pikhq> Gregor is often a scandalous imposter. It's all the hats, I tell you. \ 54) <GregorR-L> If I ever made a game where you jabbed bears ... <GregorR-L> I'd call it jabbear. \ 55) <oklopol> GregorR: are you talking about ehird's virginity
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17:19:54 <Taneb> They're just a bunch of things on sticks then fried!
17:19:59 <asiekierka> i'll just make the debug code more debug
17:20:18 <lambdabot> Data.List (++) :: [a] -> [a] -> [a]
17:20:18 <lambdabot> Data.List deleteFirstsBy :: (a -> a -> Bool) -> [a] -> [a] -> [a]
17:20:57 <oklopol> http://www.google.fi/search?tbm=isch&hl=fi&source=hp&biw=1170&bih=558&q=d%C3%B6ner&gbv=2&oq=d%C3%B6ner&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=0l0l0l8439l0l0l0l0l0l0l0l0ll0l0
17:21:22 <Taneb> http://www.google.fi/search?hl=fi&biw=1366&bih=631&gbv=2&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=shish&oq=shish&aq=f&aqi=g7&aql=1&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=9418l10217l0l10719l5l5l0l0l0l0l138l614l1.4l5l0
17:21:29 <lambdabot> Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show ([a] -> [a])
17:21:39 <oklopol> oh you meant that shish are
17:21:48 <oklopol> well true, but as i said, we don't really have those
17:22:07 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[GHC.Types.Char] -> t'
17:22:13 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `-'
17:22:31 <CakeProphet> > fix (\a -> (++) =<< reverse $ a) "hello"
17:22:32 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[GHC.Types.Char] -> t'
17:22:56 <fizzie> @hoogle a -> b -> c -> d -> e -> f -> g -> h -> i
17:23:15 <fizzie> Worked up to h, funnily enough.
17:23:26 <fizzie> @hoogle a -> b -> c -> d -> e -> f -> g -> h
17:23:28 <lambdabot> Data.List zipWith7 :: (a -> b -> c -> d -> e -> f -> g -> h) -> [a] -> [b] -> [c] -> [d] -> [e] -> [f] -> [g] -> [h]
17:23:28 <lambdabot> System.Time TimeDiff :: Int -> Int -> Int -> Int -> Int -> Int -> Integer -> TimeDiff
17:23:28 <lambdabot> Network.Browser AuthDigest :: String -> String -> String -> String -> Maybe Algorithm -> [URI] -> Maybe String -> [Qop] -> Authority
17:23:38 <Lymee> CakeProphet, you are not.
17:24:08 <lambdabot> Data.List zipWith7 :: (a -> b -> c -> d -> e -> f -> g -> h) -> [a] -> [b] -> [c] -> [d] -> [e] -> [f] -> [g] -> [h]
17:24:14 <oklopol> googling dner pictures = not a good idea
17:24:41 <lambdabot> Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show
17:25:50 <oklopol> because i'm mentally ignoring it
17:27:52 <oklopol> well where does girth come from then
17:27:58 <oklopol> has to come from something
17:28:25 <CakeProphet> http://www.geekstir.com/gary-oak-you-cant-ignore-his-girth
17:28:27 <Taneb> No, he's referring to what's keeping his saddle in place
17:28:43 <CakeProphet> I am referring to an internet meme but Taneb's answer is acceptable I guess.
17:30:22 <asiekierka> so i'd upload my interpreter somewhere
17:30:32 <oklopol> that has to be the stupidest meme
17:30:34 <asiekierka> but my server admin made the VPS _DIE._
17:30:46 <oklopol> but seriously, how do you form irth-forms
17:31:02 <CakeProphet> it basically wishes it were the bloodninja cyber logs.
17:31:07 <fizzie> There are these things called file upload services where you can put whatever.
17:31:18 <oklopol> CakeProphet: what is unclear to you
17:31:41 <oklopol> if there was an irth form, i wouldn't have to ask
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17:31:56 <asiekierka> fizzie i do not like rapidshare or megaupload
17:32:06 <asiekierka> i just want something without all this glitteryness everywhere
17:32:09 <CakeProphet> oklopol: okay now you're just confusing me.
17:32:54 <oklopol> so the irth form makes a verb into the event of that action ending
17:33:05 <CakeProphet> oklopol: like, there's nothing to interpret linguistically
17:33:07 <oklopol> not sure how gear => girth makes sense though
17:33:26 <CakeProphet> 1. The measurement around the middle of something, esp. a person's waist.
17:33:32 <CakeProphet> like.. it's just a word... with a meaning.
17:33:55 <asiekierka> Taneb http://dl.dropbox.com/u/29165587/binodu1.zip
17:34:11 <oklopol> okay where the fuck does mirth come from
17:34:29 <fizzie> bear -> shit, in the woods.
17:34:36 <Taneb> Which is a variation of mere, meaning a big pond
17:34:49 <oklopol> but what does that mean as a word
17:34:57 <CakeProphet> [vi] [rude] to urinate, to pee, to piss (on). It appears in the phrase meado por los perros ‘pissed on by dogs’, meaning ‘screwed up, terribly unlucky
17:34:59 <oklopol> and how does the ending of doing a pond make you really happy
17:35:14 <fizzie> oklopol: Well, if it's a *big* pond.
17:35:25 <CakeProphet> oklopol: but yeah, definitely looking into it too much.
17:35:53 <fizzie> Fear -> firth? (2. firth -- (a long narrow estuary (especially in Scotland)))
17:36:00 <oklopol> Taneb: ah, good point, earth-endings are probably just alternative spellings
17:38:03 <oklopol> okay so i think we have pretty much proved that the irth forms do exist, but what we still lack is a good explanation for what the semantics actually are
17:38:14 <oklopol> i'm not sure i covered it completely yet
17:38:16 <CakeProphet> you guys are inventing these linguistic shenanigans to ruin what was a completely acceptable bit of humor involving dicks.
17:38:25 <oklopol> because for instance i'm not sure how earth is the end of all earing.
17:38:36 <fizzie> oklopol: It's because it's so endearing.
17:38:39 <Taneb> Put your ear to the ground?
17:39:31 <oklopol> it's all really really obvious now
17:39:36 <CakeProphet> no, this is all false. There is no connection between any of that stuff.
17:39:37 <oklopol> why didn't i see this before
17:40:02 <oklopol> we should call the government of english about this discovirth
17:40:20 <Taneb> TO OXFORD UNIVERSITY!
17:41:32 <oklopol> how in hell was that pokemon thing funny
17:41:57 <Taneb> It needs to be spreadable, not funny.
17:43:08 <oklopol> trirth is pretty standard english
17:43:44 <CakeProphet> what is it with all of these false things you're saying.
17:44:08 <fizzie> > let icbin = "I can't believe it's not \"" ++ icbin ++ "\"" in icbin
17:44:10 <lambdabot> "I can't believe it's not \"I can't believe it's not \"I can't believe it's...
17:44:46 <CakeProphet> fizzie: you know you could do that a lot easier with fix or cycle.
17:46:02 <fizzie> > fix $ ("I can't believe it's not \"" ++) . (++ "\"")
17:46:03 <lambdabot> "I can't believe it's not \"I can't believe it's not \"I can't believe it's...
17:46:06 <fizzie> That's not really any easier.
17:46:14 <fizzie> I want the closing quotes for balance, you see.
17:47:04 <lambdabot> "I can't believe it's not \"I can't believe it's not \"I can't believe it's...
17:47:15 <fizzie> That doesn't have the closing quotes either.
17:47:28 <Taneb> asiekierka: still says "Hello2World!"
17:47:36 <oklopol> i think something is wrong with CakeProphet today
17:48:18 <Taneb> btw, asiekierka, you are not logged into the wiki
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17:50:34 <asiekierka> i plan to work on 99 bottles of beer later
17:50:47 <CakeProphet> asiekierka: drink plenty of water to avoid a hangover.
17:51:31 <CakeProphet> you should get shitfaced but avoid the hangover.
17:51:54 <oklopol> 99 bottles of birth on the wall
17:53:16 <oklopol> i wonder if i can still get a dirth from the kirth place
17:54:14 <Taneb> asiekierka: Still saying "Hello,2World!"
17:56:33 <Taneb> asiekierka: are you sure the one on the wiki is the right one?
17:56:53 <CakeProphet> @pl (\x -> show x++" bottles of beer on the wall, "++show x++" bottles of beer. Take one down, pass it around, "++show(x-1)++" bottles of beer on the wall.") <$> reverse [1..99]
17:56:57 <lambdabot> liftM2 (++) show ((" bottles of beer on the wall, " ++) . ap ((++) . show) ((" bottles of beer. Take one down, pass it around, " ++) . (++ " bottles of beer on the wall.") . show . subtract 1)) <$>
17:56:57 <lambdabot> optimization suspended, use @pl-resume to continue.
17:57:06 <lambdabot> liftM2 (++) show ((" bottles of beer on the wall, " ++) . liftM2 (++) show ((" bottles of beer. Take one down, pass it around, " ++) . (++ " bottles of beer on the wall.") . show . subtract 1)) <$>
17:57:07 <Taneb> I've deleted it and reinstalled it, still getting Hello,2World!
17:57:47 <asiekierka> it was broken (i forgot to add spaces)
17:58:21 <CakeProphet> > (\x -> show x++" bottles of beer on the wall, "++show x++" bottles of beer. Take one down, pass it around, "++show(x-1)++" bottles of beer on the wall.") =<< reverse [1..99]
17:58:24 <lambdabot> "99 bottles of beer on the wall, 99 bottles of beer. Take one down, pass it...
17:58:36 <fizzie> You can do the [99,98..1] thing too, though I guess reverse [1..99] is not any worse.
17:59:34 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `..'
17:59:40 <fizzie> lambdabot: Oh come on, it's *obvious*.
18:00:19 <CakeProphet> > (\x -> x++" bottles of beer on the wall, "++x++" bottles of beer. Take one down, pass it around, "++ show . subtract 1 . read ++" bottles of beer on the wall.").show =<< reverse [1..99]
18:00:20 <oklopol> lambdabot: YOU ARE A FUCKING RETARDO
18:00:20 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Base.String -> GHC.Base.String'
18:02:14 <CakeProphet> @pl (\x -> x++" bottles of beer on the wall, "++x++" bottles of beer. Take one down, pass it around, "++ (show . subtract 1 . read) x ++" bottles of beer on the wall. ").show =<< [99,98..1]
18:02:17 <lambdabot> ap (++) ((" bottles of beer on the wall, " ++) . ap (++) ((" bottles of beer. Take one down, pass it around, " ++) . (++ " bottles of beer on the wall. ") . show . subtract 1 . read)) . show =<< [99,
18:02:51 <Taneb> asiekierka: can't get it working :/
18:03:35 <Taneb> Still doing Hello,2World!
18:03:55 <Taneb> Can you test that program, see if it's the program?
18:04:17 -!- elliott has joined.
18:04:30 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
18:04:52 <CakeProphet> @pl (\x -> x++" bottles of beer on the wall, "++x++" bottles of beer. Take one down, pass it around, "++ (show . subtract 1 . read) x ++" bottles of beer on the wall. ").show =<< [99,98..1]
18:04:55 <lambdabot> ap (++) ((" bottles of beer on the wall, " ++) . ap (++) ((" bottles of beer. Take one down, pass it around, " ++) . (++ " bottles of beer on the wall. ") . show . subtract 1 . read)) . show =<< [99,
18:05:26 <CakeProphet> reshow f = show . f . read is a nifty function
18:06:00 <CakeProphet> > let reshow f = show . f . read in reshow (+1) "99"
18:06:37 <CakeProphet> harr harr. except it's HASKELL OOOOH WHAT NOW.
18:08:37 <CakeProphet> I once told someone that Haskell was my favorite language.
18:08:53 <CakeProphet> and they thought I said Pascal, and gave me strange looks.
18:09:34 <Taneb> They could have thought you said Klingon
18:13:04 <CakeProphet> you know what the world is sorely lacking?
18:13:11 <CakeProphet> a hybrid language between Visual Basic and Java.
18:15:22 <elliott> 00:14:56: <oerjan> itidus20: the question i'm having is whether there has yet been any procedurally generated work whose value goes beyond just "look at this clever procedural generation"
18:15:49 <ais523> VB.NET and C# are pretty similar languages except for the syntax, nowadays
18:15:50 <Gregor> CakeProphet: Not any more.
18:15:59 <elliott> 00:16:56: <oerjan> otoh procedurally generated works _without_ AI can still showcase the beauty of mathematics
18:15:59 <elliott> if a program spits out Hamlet, it's amazing, whether it has intelligence or not is irrelevant
18:16:09 <elliott> (re 00:17:18: <oerjan> and in some way, perhaps that's all they can do)
18:16:12 <Gregor> elliott: cat sure is amazing.
18:16:36 <ais523> elliott: unless it gets it off the Internet?
18:16:41 <Gregor> Incidentally, "cat hamlet" = best Hamlet ever.
18:16:55 <elliott> 00:21:06: <oerjan> but if a work is long, achieving something which looks consistently intelligent by chance has vanishingly low probability
18:16:55 <elliott> you think humans can perform a perfect turing test given a novel-sized output?
18:17:14 <elliott> i'm sure a program could write a terrible romance novel pretty easily and it'd sell :P
18:17:27 <elliott> Gregor: OK now I want to see Hamlet played by a cat.
18:17:30 <Taneb> Especially if it had vampires
18:17:30 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher homestuck* ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
18:17:43 <fungot> Selected style: ff7 (Full script of the game Final Fantasy VII)
18:17:50 <fungot> CakeProphet: i had to choose either auto or manual.... that name? you mean only a matter of the ancients, right? an' it's my own weaknesses are what created me. ( gosh, it can't be expected to remember each person's name.
18:17:55 <Gregor> To meow, or not to meow?
18:18:01 <fungot> CakeProphet: i'll give you back the money i stole from you! you can't die! you! what now? call it shinra mansion. i'll write again....
18:18:04 <elliott> ais523: well, the basic point is that if it spits out a compelling work (without cheating), then it has value, whether or not the program is intelligent enough
18:18:14 <elliott> CakeProphet: call it That Sword Alone Can't Stop
18:18:28 -!- cheater_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:18:29 <Taneb> ...How do you sign up to be turing tested?
18:18:50 <elliott> 00:23:55: <oerjan> hm? i'd imagine fungot's success is precisely because it implements a framework of language - if a very shallow one
18:18:50 <elliott> imagine if it operated on bits rather than words
18:18:50 <fungot> elliott: tifa always used to get back. come on and take a picture of you that, there's something personal too...
18:19:30 <elliott> 00:25:10: <oerjan> evincar: common fungot bug in how it selects the next word
18:19:30 <fungot> elliott: gosh! you're comin' with shinra now. why'd you bring your chocobo to this.
18:20:08 <fungot> CakeProphet: you don't get depressed over a thing, rookie! it's full, so let's hurry before they get in!!
18:20:45 <elliott> 00:33:43: <itidus20> but if fungot is passed off as an actual human, with human rights and human access to resources then trouble brews
18:20:45 <fungot> elliott: oh... is bugenhagen...? my family... friends... the pain in my dreams so often... ri....
18:20:51 <elliott> i would fully support this
18:20:54 <elliott> cue ais523 saying he wouldn't
18:21:10 <fungot> CakeProphet: you mean the owner of the way you walk, gesture...
18:21:16 <ais523> giving computers human rights would be a little complicated
18:21:20 <ais523> heh, that's an apposite reply
18:22:11 <elliott> 00:43:11: <itidus20> i would like to procedurally generate graphics for scribblenauts
18:22:11 <elliott> I wonder how large Scribblenaut's vocab. actually is
18:22:26 <Taneb> Smaller than super scribblenauts
18:22:39 <CakeProphet> `quote < CakeProphet> fungot would be ab excellent dictator.
18:22:39 <fungot> CakeProphet: i'm... i'm used to talk... man, i'm pissed!! get it. thanks for showing us!
18:22:39 <MDude> It's fairly large, though there are a few words it doens't have.
18:22:50 <MDude> I can't think what they are fomr the top of my head, though.
18:23:14 <MDude> And by words it doens't have I specifically mean ones I expected it to.
18:23:16 <fungot> CakeProphet: you awake? want me to do with what we did it!
18:23:45 <MDude> Super Scribblenauts has a lot more possibilities, but it has some problems due to not being made fomr scratch.
18:23:59 <Taneb> Actually, it does have death
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18:24:11 <MDude> Certain adjectives are built-in to certain words, for isntance,.
18:24:31 <itidus20> i basically just woke up.. good timing
18:24:44 <MDude> It also relies a lot on defaults, rather than selecting undefined qualities differently each time.
18:24:46 <fungot> Selected style: darwin (Books by Charles Darwin -- you know, that evilution guy)
18:24:59 <fungot> Taneb: i overlooked/ advantage :) allowing several shots to be fired, which is eagerly sought by innumerable ants, chiefly belonging to fnord and fnord " 9 deg s., 172 deg w.); discovered in/ areas :) subsidence volcanos were either absent or inactive,/ inference i think you misunderstand me. i remember well a walk i took with me a stallion and a mare from/ beautiful fnord pigeons :) australia " fnord lophotes) behaves, as desc
18:25:04 <fizzie> Darwin's still the most smiliest writer ever.
18:25:26 <fizzie> One day I'll fixamate.
18:25:43 <fungot> CakeProphet: my father has paid/ bill, but to/ inferiority :)/ illegitimate offspring from all three forms growing together in pools in/ interior :) queensland. to mr. g. planchon see ( nat. lib.: birds,' vol. iii. 1861, p. 11.)
18:26:48 <fizzie> Probably. A script mishap during the model-generation.
18:27:22 <fizzie> Filtered unused punctuation out too, which upset the token indices. (The first K token numbers are hardcoded to be the punctuation.)
18:27:41 <fizzie> So two of his most common words got mapped to the two last punctuation tokens.
18:28:03 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin* discworld europarl ff7 fisher homestuck ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
18:28:09 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
18:28:24 <Taneb> fungot: beer, love, death, and frisbee
18:28:25 <fungot> Taneb: i am still on the top shelf with two fluoros, two " pillars" ( one of my 2.0 goals: support more than 4 or so lines in a fnord
18:29:05 <fungot> CakeProphet: i'll think of that
18:29:33 <CakeProphet> fizzie: this is an interesting bot. I'd like to look at the source sometime... except it's in befunge right?
18:29:39 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
18:29:46 <fizzie> It's publicly available.
18:30:02 <CakeProphet> yeah.. but I can't read befunge very well. I guess that's something to learn how to do in my spare time.
18:30:19 <fizzie> I don't think anyone can really read befunge all that well.
18:30:30 <fizzie> At least other people's.
18:31:06 <CakeProphet> though I don't know if fungot technically counts as AI
18:31:07 <fungot> CakeProphet: i like the exercises, then go to the summer cabin to sleep
18:31:24 <fizzie> There's a Perl version of the babbling at http://git.zem.fi/fungot/tree/HEAD:/varikn -- not the model-building scripts, but a test script that can be used to babble, plus the conversion scripts from standard ARPA ngram model format.
18:31:24 <fungot> fizzie: i could check with finger. please remove all two- or three button mice and all keyboards.
18:32:21 <elliott> 01:28:56: <MDude> I don't have any version of Haskel, so I might as well go with GHC so i can try out the language int he first place.
18:32:29 <elliott> and you probably want the haskell program
18:32:32 <elliott> and you probably want the haskell platform
18:32:37 <elliott> but probably too late, sigh
18:32:56 <elliott> 01:32:29: * MDude recoils at the sight of pink flowers.
18:32:56 <elliott> 01:33:01: <zzo38> Do not worry because the flowers are not part of the Haskell program as far as I know.
18:33:00 <MDude> The GHC site itself told me I should go for the platform instead.
18:33:02 <elliott> MDude: oh didn't realise you were still here
18:34:14 <CakeProphet> fizzie: sometime when I'm less busy I'll have to sit down and comprehend everything you just said.
18:34:32 <elliott> he said anything confusing?
18:34:57 <CakeProphet> elliott: yeah see there's this whole knowledge thing.
18:35:13 <CakeProphet> some people have parts of it and others don't. The lack of it can make certain sentences hard to understand.
18:35:27 <elliott> 04:04:23: <Sgeo> http://ideone.com/PULCM
18:35:27 <elliott> 04:04:41: <Sgeo> According to _why, it should be Yes, Dr. Cham electrocuted his niece Hannah.
18:35:34 <elliott> Sgeo: why's poignant guide is written for an old version of Ruby.
18:36:16 <Sgeo> I figured as much.
18:36:26 <Sgeo> Is it still useful to read?
18:36:39 <elliott> if you like foxes and bacon, yes.
18:36:47 <elliott> the soundtrack is better, though.
18:36:58 <elliott> (http://mislav.uniqpath.com/poignant-guide/soundtrack/)
18:37:07 <elliott> Sgeo: also it's totally incomplete, so w/e
18:37:28 <elliott> if you aren't reading the sidebars you suck
18:37:30 <itidus20> super scribblenauts increased adjectives but didn't really increase nouns signifigantly as i understand it
18:39:16 <MDude> I think a good example of how Super scribblenauts works oddly is that if you make a pregnant mom, she gives birth to a baby mom.
18:39:22 <MDude> Only babies give birth to babies.
18:39:48 <MDude> Which is distinct fomr a baby <noun>.
18:39:55 <MDude> So you have baby babies.
18:40:26 <elliott> 04:32:22: <evincar> When it comes to games especially, your only choices for good pre-existing scripting languages are Lua and Python.
18:40:36 <elliott> Squirrel is used extensively in the game industry and is designed for the purpose
18:41:03 <MDude> I tried, and haven't found a way to make anything in super scribblenauts reliably self-replicating.
18:42:06 <elliott> 05:25:33: <oerjan> hm that was actually a funny one
18:42:32 <MDude> Factor is supposedly nice for games, though I haven't tried it, and also it's stack-based.
18:43:00 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Triplet
18:43:16 <elliott> MDude: Factor would be a very poor choice of extension language, IMO
18:43:26 <elliott> For writing a game from scratch, maybe, but not as an extension language
18:45:40 <elliott> 12:47:16: <asiekierka> it already has the Interpreter class and all the sub-classes (coding in java because i'm lazy)
18:46:01 <elliott> today scientists found that the amount of sense the definition of "lazy" makes is correlated with intelligence
18:46:17 <asiekierka> i'm lazy, i dont want to learn a new programming language
18:46:43 <asiekierka> they found that the amount of projects of yours that use Java is correlated with intelligence
18:47:16 <Taneb> What if you use all of Indonesia
18:48:19 <itidus20> I have been thinking about writing my own game scripting language for a while.
18:49:04 <elliott> 15:24:11: <Phantom_Hoover> Does Java actually do tail-call elimination?
18:49:04 <elliott> 15:24:31: <ais523> I'm not sure if it's specified to, but interps are certainly allowed to, and I suspect most of the big-name ones do
18:49:09 <elliott> ais523: um, afaik the sun jvm does not at all
18:49:50 <elliott> why would it? nobody does that in java
18:50:04 <elliott> gcc is rare by providing TRE
18:50:04 <elliott> 16:27:47: <CakeProphet> > (*) <$> [100,70,0] <*> 9
18:50:04 <elliott> 16:27:48: <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num [a])
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18:52:08 <elliott> 17:43:08: <oklopol> trirth is pretty standard english
18:52:08 <elliott> 17:43:37: <CakeProphet> uh, no
18:52:08 <elliott> 17:43:44: <CakeProphet> what is it with all of these false things you're saying.
18:52:16 <elliott> CakeProphet: umm dude are you even an english native?
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18:55:36 <elliott> CakeProphet: then how are you unaware of those forms
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18:56:15 <elliott> oh, right, you're doing the obnoxious "i don't like this so I'll pretend not to understand it" thing
18:56:21 <elliott> prescriptivism is awesomeeeeeeeeeeeeee
18:56:41 <CakeProphet> I'm aware that there are words with -irth at the end, but I'm pretty sure they're not forms of different words in the way that -ness at the end of an adjective makes it a noun.
18:56:51 <CakeProphet> no, I really don't know what the word trirth means.
18:58:15 <Taneb> Should we tell him?
18:58:21 <Taneb> Because this is rather fun to watch
18:58:45 <oklopol> Taneb: we're TRYING to tell him.
18:59:02 <Taneb> Not. Hard. enough.
18:59:06 <oklopol> i hope kebab places haven't closed during my long procrastinirth :(
18:59:56 <Phantom_Hoover> CakeProphet, 17:32:54: <oklopol> so the irth form makes a verb into the event of that action ending
19:02:08 <Taneb> Like, when you stop mearing, that's the mirth
19:03:07 <oklopol> oh i thought it was when you stop bearing
19:03:15 <Taneb> They named Perth that because they had gotten bored of building peirs
19:03:27 <elliott> not another fucking coastal city --Australians
19:03:31 <Taneb> brb, watching university challenge
19:03:34 <oklopol> maybe i don't completely understand this yet.
19:03:36 <CakeProphet> no, that's stupid. that's not an actual thing.
19:04:48 <oklopol> wow i didn't even know they can be used as verbs too
19:04:56 <oklopol> well i guess we all learned something today then, right CakeProphet?
19:05:13 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, it's a tense too, although I forgive you because you're not a native speaker.
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19:06:11 <CakeProphet> oklopol: the human brain can grep all kinds of meanings for words? sure.
19:06:20 <elliott> CakeProphet: stop being an idio
19:06:51 <itidus20> lets not forget the fact that humans created all the meanings for words :D
19:06:53 <oklopol> CakeProphet: that's not a good definition of learning imo, but i guess you agree
19:07:23 <oklopol> oh so girth is the end of getting (fat?)
19:07:24 <itidus20> but then, language is beyond the control of any individual human
19:07:45 <quintopia> lets not forget that humans created all the meanings for maths
19:07:46 <elliott> oklopol: the end of getting is where the most common meaning of girth comes from, yes
19:07:56 <elliott> oklopol: it's where the end of all the food you've got is, basically
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19:08:15 <quintopia> girth is another word for the diameter of a graph
19:08:50 <oklopol> did you know there are CA synchronization algorithms that work in linear time w.r.t. the girth of the given graph
19:09:18 <quintopia> please point me to the relevant papers
19:09:21 <oklopol> where by synchronization i mean the firing squad problem of making everything step into state f at the same time
19:09:32 <itidus20> a human can create something.... but
19:09:53 <itidus20> it can take on a life of it's own as in the case of prometheus or frankenstein
19:10:09 <itidus20> i haven't heard the story of prometheus though
19:11:40 <itidus20> well frankenstein novel is called something like "the new prometheus" which i never knew what that meant. hahaha
19:11:54 <CakeProphet> elliott: I'm about to go get my tires changed. I'm going to ask the mechanic when the wirth is.
19:12:08 <itidus20> perhaps in the sense of how he rebels against his creators
19:12:16 <elliott> CakeProphet: im not fucking interested
19:12:48 <itidus20> but language too, once it has been cast.. it sets its own way
19:13:55 <elliott> CakeProphet: because you're being an obvious troll
19:14:19 <CakeProphet> I'm doing this thing called disgareeing, that's all.
19:14:21 <elliott> CakeProphet: HEY WHAT DOES "THE" MEAN
19:14:46 <CakeProphet> the is the definite article, it specifies that the following noun is a specific instance rather than a general one.
19:15:06 <elliott> CakeProphet: IVE NEVER HEARD THA
19:15:13 <elliott> IM GOING TO THE WHOREHOUSE AND IM GOING TO ASK WHETHER THEY KNOW WHAT "THE" MEANS
19:15:17 <elliott> SORRY [ASTERISK]A WOREHOUSE
19:16:06 <CakeProphet> I'm sure they do, they just couldn't explain it in words.
19:16:43 <NihilistDandy> 06:57:39: <elliott_> pikhq_: NihilistDandy: HAHAHAHAHA I AM TAKING YOUR BELOVED HASKELL HOSTAGE
19:16:46 <NihilistDandy> 06:57:46: <elliott_> WHEN I AM THROUGH WITH IT YOU WON'T HAVE ANY IDEA WHAT IT USED TO BE
19:16:49 <NihilistDandy> 06:58:02: <elliott_> I SHALL STRIKE INTROSPECTION THROUGH THE HEART OF THE THING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
19:17:05 <oklopol> quintopia: i cannot find that one nice article on it :(
19:17:27 <elliott> NihilistDandy: Read on to find what I was doing/am doing.
19:17:33 <elliott> CakeProphet: yeah I just made the up too
19:17:41 <elliott> stop whining about standard features of english just because they're not in the fucking oed
19:18:10 <oklopol> http://www.springerlink.com/content/7054v778717w353p/ is probably a good but i haven't read it yet
19:18:21 <oklopol> this was a bit of a hobby of mine at some point
19:18:26 <elliott> NihilistDandy: non-destructively :P
19:18:42 <oklopol> we had this HORRIBLE paper on the synchronization problem for p systems (for which the problem is trivial)
19:18:49 <CakeProphet> elliott: no I just disagree that it's a standard feature of english.
19:18:52 <oklopol> in the non-trivial one for ca
19:19:05 <CakeProphet> since words ending in -irth are quite few and don't seem to bear any common relation to one another.
19:19:15 <NihilistDandy> People always ask me "Well, what if I need to implement a database in Haskell? WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW?"
19:19:40 <NihilistDandy> And then I point out that making your own database is stupid, since SQLite did it better than they would
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19:23:17 <CakeProphet> elliott: something I think you would enjoy: http://ifdb.tads.org/viewgame?id=w5s3sv43s3p98v45
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19:23:57 <CakeProphet> Glauds! How rorm it would be to pell back to the bewl and distunk them, distunk the whole delcot, let the drokes uncren them.
19:25:57 <CakeProphet> elliott: because it's a puzzle game centered on invented features of the english language.
19:26:16 <elliott> I don't care about invented features of the english language
19:26:41 <CakeProphet> only the well-established universal ones, obviously.
19:27:00 <elliott> Please stop bothering me with your inane crap.
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19:29:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Now THAT'S not standard usage :P
19:29:35 <Taneb> Watchirth has occured
19:31:24 <CakeProphet> leath, feath, farth, furth, dith, and blath
19:36:36 <CakeProphet> Elliot HURD of interfaces representing depth
19:38:12 <CakeProphet> > let hird = hurd ++ " of interfaces representing depth"; hurd = hird ++ " of Unix-replacing daemons" in hurd
19:45:10 <Phantom_Hoover> > let hird = hurd ++ " of interfaces representing depth"; hurd = hird ++ " of Unix-replacing daemons" in take 60 hurd
19:52:15 <CakeProphet> "smomead gnicalper-xinU fo htped gnitneserper secafretni fo ...
19:54:22 <ais523> is a deamom a deamon's parent?
19:57:03 <CakeProphet> :t ("I",("wonder",("if",("anyone",("has",("ever",("done",("this",()))))))))
19:57:04 <lambdabot> ([Char], ([Char], ([Char], ([Char], ([Char], ([Char], ([Char], ([Char], ()))))))))
19:57:37 <CakeProphet> explicitly typed fixed-length linked lists!
19:58:57 <elliott> it's an incredibly well-known technique.
19:59:10 <elliott> http://homepages.cwi.nl/~ralf/HList/, http://homepages.cwi.nl/~ralf/HList/paper.pdf, http://hackage.haskell.org/package/HList
19:59:37 <elliott> <CakeProphet> explicitly typed fixed-length linked lists!
19:59:44 <elliott> also, there are much better ways to do this than an hlist-style representation.
19:59:51 <elliott> hlist is all that and _heterogeneous_
20:03:18 <CakeProphet> data QuadList a b c d = a :* QuadList b c d a | Empty
20:05:26 <elliott> QuadList solves a completely different problem.
20:05:30 <elliott> and is not appropriate for HList's main use cases.
20:07:18 <CakeProphet> why else would it have so many typeclasses.
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20:08:46 <CakeProphet> okay so a NonEmptyList would be [a] = a : [a] | Last a right?
20:09:04 <elliott> data NonEmpty a = a :| [a] is the representation used by the commonly-used packages.
20:09:26 <ais523> and :| is an operator for constructing the first elemnt of a nonempty list?
20:09:47 <elliott> ais523: it's a constructor
20:10:05 <ais523> it's a constructor that looks like an operator
20:10:15 <elliott> ais523: it _is_ an operator
20:10:37 <elliott> ais523: it starts with : because, you know how constructors have to start with uppercase letters?
20:10:40 <elliott> : is the only uppercase /symbol/
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20:38:11 <elliott> ais523: I just signed up for a free copy of that book that's on reddit so I can point at every page and say "that sucks, scapegoat does it better".
20:39:00 <elliott> (http://book.sourcegear.com/vcbe/request_book, if anyone is interested, but I suspect the offer will end fairly soon)
20:39:55 <elliott> hmm, apparently it was on Hacker News last week, but that's a much smaller crowd
20:40:02 <ais523> well, it's possible that some VCSes will do the same as Scapegoat in some situations
20:40:20 <fizzie> Interesting choices in the form.
20:40:41 <elliott> it seems to cover a VCS made by the company offering it, so it's obviously partially a marketing tool
20:40:48 <elliott> NihilistDandy: see line above
20:41:16 <elliott> but oh well, it might be interesting
20:41:28 <elliott> http://www.ericsink.com/entries/vcbe_print_edition_free.html seems to justify it as something more than pure marketing, at least
20:41:40 <elliott> especially since it's available in ebook format for free
20:42:37 -!- monqy has joined.
20:43:08 <fizzie> I once requested the Z80 CPU datasheets from Zilog, and they mailed those all the way to Finland for free. It was a heartwarming gesture. Especially since I didn't really-really need those for anything. (Half of the book is just timing diagrams.)
20:43:11 <Gregor> Wait, wtf, it's a practical usage book?
20:43:19 <Gregor> I thought it would be an architecture book.
20:43:36 <elliott> Gregor: So what, it's free :-)
20:43:51 <elliott> I'm mostly getting it because "hey, I can" and because I like to support non-traditional business models revolving around scarce resources.
20:44:00 <Gregor> elliott: Yeah, I can also read P.G. Wodehouse's Jeeves books for free (the ones currently sitting on my DR800), only they're not terrible :P
20:44:08 <elliott> Gregor: They're not made out of paper
20:44:14 <Gregor> elliott: Paper is obsolete.
20:44:18 <elliott> Gregor: But http://www.ericsink.com/vcbe/vcbe_usletter_lo.pdf :-P
20:44:24 <elliott> But people are still selling it
20:44:54 <elliott> And if you fill out that form you still wouldn't be buying it :P
20:45:07 <elliott> Oh no, the guy from The Daily WTF likes it. And a Subversion developer.
20:45:13 <elliott> AND TWO OTHER SUBVERSION DEVELOPERS
20:45:15 <elliott> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
20:45:41 <NihilistDandy> The cover's not even very good, and I'll bet it's printed on shitty paper
20:46:01 <Gregor> Also this umbrella works wonders for murdering!
20:47:19 <elliott> In 2009, Books LLC and its sister imprint General Books LLC produced respectively 224,460 and 11,887 titles.[12][13]
20:47:29 <elliott> NihilistDandy: You bought it right
20:47:31 <elliott> PLEASE tell me you bought it
20:47:36 <elliott> PLEASE tell me you bought it
20:52:36 <Gregor> So ... what of Books LLC?
20:52:39 <Gregor> What is it? Who cares?
20:53:03 <elliott> Gregor: They reprint Wikipedia automatically.
20:53:03 <pikhq> Hmm. That's utterly surprising. Magic Set Editor actually builds and runs without patching.
20:53:09 <elliott> Gregor: They have a book on esolangs.
20:53:20 <elliott> Sgeo: Do you still have a link
20:53:24 <Gregor> elliott: OK ... so does PediaPress ...
20:53:34 <elliott> Gregor: OK look you know how your fly-by-wire service are hilarious.
20:53:37 <elliott> Books LLC is hilarious for the same reason.
20:53:38 <Gregor> Oh, automatically as in they just grab interrelated pages?
20:53:38 <Sgeo> elliott, hold on
20:53:49 <Sgeo> http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/esoteric-programming-languages-books-llc/1022380853?ean=9781155349770&itm=1&usri=brainfuck
20:53:49 <elliott> Gregor: So they have THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS of books :P
20:53:49 <Gregor> That's more automatic than I expected :P
20:53:58 <elliott> Look at the one Sgeo linked it's amazing.
20:54:07 <elliott> Esoteric Programming Language is apparently a language.
20:54:47 <elliott> "Purchase includes free access to book updates online and a free trial membership in the publisher's book club where you can select from more than a million books without charge."
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20:55:26 <Gregor> lol, even the description is clearly automatic.
20:55:45 <Gregor> And people who bought it also bought The Great Gatspy, 1984 and Lord of the Flies.
20:56:54 <cheater> no i think you can probably paper it
20:57:00 <cheater> you need that on your bookshelf
20:57:04 <elliott> Gregor: Ye of disposable income, go buy it
20:57:06 <Gregor> No, it's not; if it was any ebook, I'd almost 1/10th consider it :P
20:57:19 <Gregor> I did buy the PediaPress book on compiler construction.
20:57:20 <cheater> i wonder what the back looks like
20:57:42 <Sgeo> NihilistDandy, what does the back look lilee?
20:57:52 <elliott> Gregor: Oh come on, it's even discounted.
20:57:58 <elliott> Gregor: It's available USED for ten dollars.
20:58:00 <cheater> how can you say no to that
20:58:18 <cheater> at least 5 free wikipedia articles
20:58:41 <cheater> NihilistDandy, what about the uh... the bind?
20:58:50 <cheater> is it right or left oriented
20:59:03 <cheater> or is it, awesomely enough, HORIZONTAL
20:59:35 <NihilistDandy> It's a description of the works of this man: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Frayn
20:59:41 <Sgeo> I think what cheater is asking is if there's writing on it
20:59:49 <NihilistDandy> And the very first page contains an unparsed wikipedia link
21:00:00 <Sgeo> And if so, which way must the book be turned to read it rightside-up
21:00:16 <Taneb> ...John Lewis jobs let you give a birth year of 2021
21:00:22 <cheater> Sgeo, no you define that by which way the head must be tilted
21:00:23 <Sgeo> NihilistDandy, on the spine
21:00:27 <cheater> right-side is tilt your head right
21:00:32 <cheater> left-side is tilt your head left
21:01:18 <elliott> Comments from the Seller: Used book. *****PLEASE NOTE: This item is shipping from an authorized seller in Europe as part of a service brought to you by EuroBooks. To learn more about this service see the BookQuest Help section.*****
21:02:46 <NihilistDandy> And the typesetting makes it look like TeX was involved
21:03:42 <Sgeo> Does it have a copy of CC-BY-SA?
21:03:47 -!- kierra has left.
21:04:54 <NihilistDandy> Sgeo: Sort of. There's a blurb at the front of the book, but I don't see the symbols or the standard description
21:05:09 <NihilistDandy> Just like "Welp, we didn't do this, really, but here it is."
21:05:38 * Sgeo is curious as to its exact text
21:05:59 <elliott> Yeah obviously he's going to type out every word of it :P
21:06:29 <NihilistDandy> I just got my housing sorted out, so I'm sort of paperworking
21:07:33 <Sgeo> Oh, no need to include full CC-BY-SA with it
21:07:50 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
21:09:11 <cheater> i wonder if they're a business of more than 1 person
21:09:53 <NihilistDandy> I wonder if they're a business of more than 0 people
21:15:46 <NihilistDandy> http://uploads.neatorama.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/stuffedlion.jpg
21:19:43 <MDude> I don't know who you're taling about, though there could be a buisiness of 0 people.
21:22:20 <Taneb> And means a room with a cold swimming pool
21:22:40 <elliott> Steampunk: The worst???????????????????????
21:22:45 <Taneb> But do you know what vomitarium means?
21:23:00 <Taneb> Then you're probably wrong
21:23:11 <elliott> I'm sickened by people leaving.
21:23:57 <cheater> Taneb, it's vomitorium by the way.
21:24:50 <Taneb> But you all know latin!
21:25:28 <Taneb> Both meanings please
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21:26:11 <Taneb> ALSO I DIDN'T KNOW THE FIRST ONE
21:26:26 <Taneb> I was thinking jails, and things that horses are in at the start of a race
21:27:49 <cheater> there is no proper functional plural of jail
21:28:05 <cheater> you will never see anyone talk about jails (as in the building)
21:28:15 <Taneb> There are two jails near Durham.
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21:29:37 <Taneb> `addquote <cheater> you will never see anyone talk about jails (as in the building) <Taneb> There are two jails near Durham. <cheater> you're no-one
21:29:39 <HackEgo> 594) <cheater> you will never see anyone talk about jails (as in the building) <Taneb> There are two jails near Durham. <cheater> you're no-one
21:33:06 <Taneb> cheater said the funny bits
21:33:30 <Taneb> In fact, by recording this, I am being rather self-derogitary
21:35:45 <cheater> http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/functional-programming-books-llc/1023484757
21:36:21 <Vorpal> that is one long title
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21:45:44 <oklopol> "<MDude> I don't know who you're taling about, though there could be a buisiness of 0 people." <<< an association can join another one, and we soon have multiple associations so you know what that means...
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21:49:46 <oklopol> i started running and smoking
21:50:42 <oklopol> i love my lungs the way they are so trying to balance them out
21:50:53 <elliott_> `addquote <oklopol> i started running and smoking <oklopol> i love my lungs the way they are so trying to balance them out
21:50:55 <HackEgo> 594) <oklopol> i started running and smoking <oklopol> i love my lungs the way they are so trying to balance them out
21:51:58 <oklopol> i worked for like 3 hours today, but since i solved all our problems i figured i'll just leave work and go fuck around
21:53:24 <oklopol> i just wish cigarettes would taste more like chocolate
21:53:55 <oklopol> i mean don't get me wrong i love the taste, who wouldn't
21:54:14 <oklopol> the kebab place was closed and i'm so hungry
21:54:25 <Taneb> Put things on sticks.
21:54:25 <oklopol> it was raining outside just now but not anymore :(
21:54:30 <oklopol> maybe i should play some guitar
21:54:46 <oklopol> well i have sticks and meatballs
21:54:55 <oklopol> but anyway stop using your crazy definition of kebab
21:55:51 <oklopol> i have some noodles so i figured, i'll have a smoke, then go make some noodz, then run a bit, then sleep a bit, then do math till i drop
21:56:41 <oklopol> i'm sooooooo untired right now
21:57:30 <Taneb> Sounds like it should be prefixed with Minars
21:58:28 <oklopol> prefixing minors is illegal
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22:02:08 <elliott_> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> I didn't realise nickel apparently can't be shaped into a screw because of some fundamental feature of dwarven physics.
22:02:09 <HackEgo> 595) <Phantom_Hoover> I didn't realise nickel apparently can't be shaped into a screw because of some fundamental feature of dwarven physics.
22:03:44 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, here, have some cute viruses: http://www.giantmicrobes.com/
22:06:59 <Gregor> Hmmm, jury duty qualification forms ...
22:07:11 <Gregor> As I recall, it is my duty as a US citizen to avoid at all costs ever serving on a jury.
22:07:55 <augur> Gregor: unless you're aware of jury nullification
22:08:05 <augur> in which case its your duty to serve on it
22:08:23 <augur> but if you ever mention that you're aware of jury nullification, you will not be allowed to serve
22:09:18 <cheater> what was that plugin that did like 1st 2nd 3rd
22:10:48 <elliott_> augur: How is it legal to deny people to serve based on that
22:10:50 <oklopol> "<augur> im doing math :o" <<< mm math
22:10:55 <elliott_> (I'm sure it is, I'm just wondering how they do it)
22:11:21 <augur> elliott_: voir dire
22:11:55 <augur> prior to serving on a jury the defense attorney and the prosecutor get to interview potential jury members and kick out whoever they like
22:12:23 <elliott_> augur: Surely defence attorneys would want people who know of jury nullification
22:12:31 <augur> yes, but prosecutors dont
22:12:48 <augur> this is also one reason why academics and other far left liberals generally dont get through
22:13:04 <augur> i imagine libertarians dont get through for certain sorts of cases too
22:13:10 <augur> at least if anyone is open about this sort of thing
22:13:45 <elliott_> augur: It seems ... rather unfair to let _one_ of them unilaterally remove people
22:13:54 <elliott_> With agreement I could understand
22:14:07 <augur> elliott_: welcome to the american court system!
22:14:08 <elliott_> Well I can't complain about libertarians getting removed :P
22:14:48 <augur> elliott_: well, dont forget, libertarians would abolish all drug laws
22:15:05 <augur> which is a problem for the majority of court cases in the us
22:15:44 <augur> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peremptory_challenge
22:15:50 <elliott_> I like how everyone supports Ron Paul based on what basically amounts to "Let's ban things at the _state_ level instead"
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22:16:50 <augur> well, to some degree thats a great idea, right
22:16:55 <augur> except it needs to go further
22:17:30 <augur> however keep in mind, some of our states are as big as countries
22:17:43 <elliott_> Yeah, but I mean, anyone who seriously thinks Ron Paul wants to keep drugs legal or whatever is delusional
22:17:55 <augur> well ofcourse he probably doesnt
22:18:11 <augur> he says hes a libertarian, and they generally do, since they dont want the states to do that shit either
22:18:16 <augur> at least their platform is that
22:18:26 <augur> but theres probably a reason why hes not running in the libertarian party
22:18:40 <Taneb> Ban things on a personal level? That far enough?
22:18:56 <elliott_> The combination of anti-abortion conservative Christian + "STATE LEVEL STATE LEVEL" make me rather suspicious that he wants to turn the country into an Ayn Randian "paradise"
22:19:29 <oklopol> if i could make it illegal for myself to smoke, i might
22:19:40 <augur> oklopol: smoke hookah!
22:19:59 <augur> its way better than cigarettes
22:20:12 <oklopol> do you mean have sex with hookers?
22:20:18 <oklopol> we don't really have hookers
22:20:26 <augur> you just have swedish women?
22:20:35 <Sgeo> How is "anti-abortion conservative Christian" have anything to do with Randianism?
22:20:59 <augur> which is why elliott_ is skeptical of paul's libertarianism
22:21:07 <augur> oklopol: satw has a running joke about finns and swedes
22:21:23 <oklopol> i don't really read it, what is the joke
22:21:34 <augur> and how finnish guys love to get fucked up the ass by busty swedish women in strapons
22:22:04 <oklopol> well who wouldn't love that, point is you can't really find people who do that for money
22:22:07 <Taneb> I was thinking of Cyanide and Happiness
22:22:09 <augur> but are in a sad D/S situation where sister sweden forces brother finland to say he loves her
22:22:19 <augur> because he knows swedish but is ashamed to
22:22:23 <zzo38> Last night I had some dream, I remember much of it.
22:22:23 <lambdabot> zzo38: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
22:22:27 <Taneb> Denmark was funnier
22:22:30 <augur> oklopol: well thats what boys are for :)
22:22:36 <augur> Taneb: denmark is a total hotty
22:22:45 <augur> the bridges comic is great
22:23:12 <zzo38> [I turned off messages, didn't I?]
22:23:14 <oklopol> well if i wanted gay sex, i could easily get it without paying
22:23:24 <monqy> I had a dream last night too
22:23:30 <augur> you should do so then!
22:23:34 <zzo38> We went into some museum.
22:23:34 <elliott_> zzo38: You can't turn off lambdabot messages
22:23:36 <augur> and tape it, cause, you know
22:24:37 * Sgeo wants a translation for SATW's "Not English""
22:24:40 <monqy> my sisters were doing some recycling education thing and I had to help, and in one part there were these inflatable plastic cans, some of them fully inflated, some partially so and crumpled, some of them fully deflated and straightened nicely. Anyway, we had to put them in this bin, but for some reason I really wanted to eat them, and I ended up picking them up with my mouth and chewing on some of them a bit
22:25:40 <zzo38> There was many things in this museum, including some monsters and stuff. Finally one floor there is an office, it has one foreign person and one monster each working on a computer in a small office (too small for anyone to work). Fianlly they said they are foreigner and said some things which are similar to stuff I myself said a long time ago.
22:26:23 <elliott_> What. Google. What. Why did you just buy Motorola. What.
22:26:39 <Taneb> So... Google owns my phone?
22:26:50 <augur> you're a bit autistic
22:26:53 <elliott_> Oh, looks like they bought it for patents.
22:26:57 <zzo38> After they said a bunch of stuff, I thought the museum administration (not anyone currently in view) was going to hit me for it, so I try to run away. I found the public washrooms hallway. There are three branches: the men washroom, the woman washroom, and the third hallway which is probably some maintenance hallway.
22:27:00 <augur> elliott_: google bought motorola huh
22:27:15 <monqy> augur: dream me has problems
22:27:15 <augur> well its for android ofcourse
22:27:23 <elliott_> dream monqy is just insane, not autistic
22:27:25 <augur> monqy: oh it was a dreak?
22:27:32 <monqy> yes it was a dream
22:27:45 <elliott_> that'd just be pica not autism
22:27:52 <augur> there was a bit of text between the statement "i had a dream"
22:28:30 <oklopol> i put things in my mouth all the time
22:28:35 <elliott_> only autistic people have dreams PASS IT ON....
22:28:44 <oklopol> not saying i'm not a bit autistic
22:29:09 <zzo38> The men's washroom hallway had two public washrooms, each Egyptian themed and each had many sinks, toilet stalls, etc. The first one was no good, so afterward the museum was closed and it was dark but I managed to find the other one anyways and enter. At the entrance was some computers saying to enter things on them. I only partially entered data on the first and then found the toilet.
22:29:43 <augur> oklopol: do you now...
22:30:35 <oklopol> sorry i was so fascinated about zzo38's story i forgot what i said
22:30:52 <zzo38> There was a sign saying something like, line them up so that the sign on the wall and the door are parallel. I managed to do so. After exit, I found a secret door was now open. I have found one of the two secret islands for this museum. It was daytime now and one of the three people who I went to the museum with met me there even though they themself could not find this secret island!
22:30:55 <oklopol> well yeah i stick stuff there all the time
22:31:11 <augur> zzo38: i think ive been to this club
22:31:25 <augur> when you got into the bathroom, did the stalls have holes in the walls?
22:31:45 <zzo38> Anyways it is a dream not a real bathroom
22:31:49 <augur> your dream club sucks then
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22:32:17 <zzo38> Actually, I don't quite remember. Maybe one of the stalls does have a hole.
22:32:50 <zzo38> (Not the one I was in, unless it was the one covered by the sign)
22:34:11 <oklopol> augur: so do you think you've been to a club more times than a club has been to you?
22:34:26 <augur> oklopol: probably!
22:34:32 <augur> ive been to a club once in my life, i think
22:35:04 <oklopol> you did get that the club is a penis right?
22:35:18 <zzo38> Rating. How much do you think the stuff I described makes any sense to you?
22:35:36 <augur> who calls a cock a club
22:35:56 <augur> it'd be a big knob on the end that gets narrow toward the base
22:35:59 <oklopol> augur: someone who needs to find a word that means both a dick and a club
22:36:19 <zzo38> oklopol: In what language?
22:36:34 <zzo38> Is there such words in English?
22:36:39 <oklopol> see i was making a gay joke because augur is a *whispers* homo
22:36:44 <Taneb> In old English there was
22:36:59 <augur> oklopol: nightstick doesnt mean club tho
22:37:02 <augur> not as in dance club
22:37:10 <augur> thats what hes looking for
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22:37:18 <augur> discoteque ~ penis
22:37:40 <oklopol> i think club is the best possible choice
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22:38:09 <oklopol> you're just sour because you didn't get it. get it, "get it"? no you don't.
22:38:09 <augur> its horrible nonetheless
22:38:40 <oklopol> i won't even let you join my club
22:39:13 <oklopol> wanna hear about limit sets
22:39:31 <augur> oklopol: limits of diagrams are better!
22:39:36 <zzo38> I could have gone through the maintenance hallway but I decided to go to the toilet instead, I could hide in the stall where the people doing maintenance will not see
22:39:43 <oklopol> i'm not smart enough for category theory
22:39:55 <augur> category theory is like magic :(
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22:40:17 <augur> i only recently understood why a monad is a monoid in the category of endofunctors
22:40:19 <zzo38> oklopol: I don't know a lot either but I did find something in Wikibooks, about relating Haskell to category theory. You can try to read that.
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22:40:39 <zzo38> Such document did help a bit
22:40:49 <augur> zzo38: no you really didnt. most of the wikibook is like the first five pages of a CT book :\
22:41:21 <augur> theres so much to fundamental CT that isnt even remotely covered in the wikibook
22:41:42 <augur> its actually a pain in the ass because some of it probably could be covered really easily
22:42:02 <augur> natural transformations and adjunctions, for instance
22:42:04 <zzo38> Is is this one: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Haskell/Category_theory Yes it is true there is things not covered there but it says in the summary that they omitted some things
22:42:06 <oklopol> if you're dum like me you have to just give up
22:42:15 <elliott_> the haskell one is... ok, but lyah/rwt are better
22:42:30 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, here, have a perfectly good introduction to category theory:
22:42:30 <augur> it goes straight from functors to monads!
22:42:42 <augur> you need natural transformations before monads
22:42:49 <elliott_> augur: That's not an introduction to category theory
22:42:52 <elliott_> That's a chapter in the Haskell book
22:42:52 <augur> and then categories of functors
22:42:58 <augur> elliott_: no, true, but still
22:43:04 <elliott_> augur: So it'll be trying to cover only that CT that Haskell uses
22:43:06 <augur> it'd be useful to understand the stuff!
22:43:16 <elliott_> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Category_Theory is the actual wikibook on CT
22:43:19 <elliott_> It looks rather hilariously incomplete
22:43:35 <Taneb> augur: Maybe you should embrace the nature of wikibookss and add those chapters?
22:43:43 <augur> elliott_: haskell uses the relevant natural transformations you know
22:43:52 <elliott_> Taneb: "This sucks!" "IT'S A WIKI/OPEN SOURCE, DO IT YOURSELF"
22:43:54 <augur> or atleast can define one of them easily
22:44:05 <augur> return = eta, join = mu
22:44:07 <elliott_> Good advice if the person you're talking to is both an expert in everything, and has infinite time
22:44:13 <augur> Taneb: ive considered it
22:44:29 <augur> but i dont know enough about adjunctions to really contribute
22:44:40 <augur> but the natural transformation stuff perhaps!
22:46:25 <monqy> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Triplet why does this exist
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22:46:37 <elliott_> monqy: because the world is imperfect
22:46:48 <Taneb> Because there are idiots
22:46:48 <monqy> why would anyone do that
22:46:48 <oerjan> <elliott_> augur: So it'll be trying to cover only that CT that Haskell uses <-- but you need natural transformations to properly understand parametricity. i think.
22:47:17 <augur> oerjan: parametric polymorphism is basically natural transformations
22:47:30 <elliott_> augur: that is not what parametricity is.
22:47:51 <oklopol> surely it's natural transformations in some category
22:48:08 <augur> elliott_: depends on what you mean by parametricity
22:48:39 <elliott_> augur: "Parametricity" in the context of Haskell means exactly one thing
22:48:48 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Actually the first year I went to anime convention they had one of the products from that company, I think the one representing AIDS, and they asked to take the photograph. Another thing is if you do science in your class related to such microbes you can put these things in your classroom too for decoration or something
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22:49:07 <elliott_> augur: http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=parametricity
22:49:25 <augur> yes im well aware, elliott_
22:49:35 <elliott_> your statements implied otherwise
22:49:48 <augur> my statements are consistent with what you linked to :)
22:50:03 <oklopol> it's not what you said, it's how you said it
22:50:40 <elliott_> augur: Parametric polymorphism is not the same thing.
22:50:43 <oerjan> <elliott> if a program spits out Hamlet, it's amazing, whether it has intelligence or not is irrelevant
22:50:47 <Vorpal> [ 1646.420270] [fglrx:firegl_cmmqs_BIOSControl] *ERROR* CMMQS BIOS Control: CMMQS handle is not valid.
22:50:47 <Vorpal> [ 1646.420273] [fglrx:firegl_bios_control] *ERROR* CMMQS BIOS Control is failed: firegl_bios_control
22:50:48 <oklopol> i'm too tired to nood but too hungry to sleap :(
22:50:48 <oerjan> yeah cat is amazing :P
22:50:52 <augur> elliott_: its intimately related
22:50:56 <Vorpal> I bet a reboot will fix it
22:50:58 <elliott_> Parametricity is a result _about_ parametric polymorphism.
22:51:13 <Vorpal> but I can't reboot atm. Since I'm dding a huge thing
22:51:15 <elliott_> oerjan: you've been beaten by ages
22:51:18 <augur> what i said was completely true.
22:51:23 <oklopol> look at my cat, my cat is amazing
22:51:44 <oerjan> oklopol: shhh, don't encourage Gr*gor
22:51:55 * oerjan swats elliott_ -----###
22:52:10 <Gregor> oklopol: Give it a lick! Mmm, it tastes just like raisins!
22:52:11 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: i saw and i APPROVED
22:52:28 <oerjan> oklopol: some guy with a kitty
22:52:57 <oklopol> but i love licking kittens
22:53:06 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.giantmicrobes.com/uk/products/commoncold.html
22:53:20 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: The animation of that cold is disturbing.
22:53:23 <monqy> http://www.giantmicrobes.com/uk/files/images/productdetails/sniffles-box.jpg
22:53:31 <elliott_> The vinyl is scary but the plushes are cute.
22:53:34 <oklopol> the fluffy thing is sooooo awww :)
22:53:41 <elliott_> oklopol: That's the vinyl.........
22:53:44 <oerjan> <elliott> you think humans can perform a perfect turing test given a novel-sized output?
22:54:37 <oklopol> http://www.giantmicrobes.com/uk/files/images/productdetails/sniffles-box.jpg is not symmetric
22:54:54 <oerjan> no. but "by chance" will still make almost all of the novel look like gibberish.
22:54:57 <oklopol> it is not cute, but that i can handle
22:55:49 <elliott_> <monqy> http://www.giantmicrobes.com/uk/files/images/productdetails/sniffles-box.jpg
22:55:49 <elliott_> <oklopol> the fluffy thing is sooooo awww :)
22:56:00 <evincar> If I might briefly detract from this enlightened conversation.
22:56:05 <oklopol> yeah that was not a response to monqy
22:56:14 <oklopol> what monqy linked was not symmetric
22:56:15 <elliott_> oerjan: fungot is more coherent than a letter-based dissociated press is more coherent than random letters is more coherent than random bytes.
22:56:15 <fungot> elliott_: it's the same as equal?
22:56:20 <elliott_> oerjan: ??? is more coherent than fungot is more ...
22:56:20 <fungot> elliott_: ( let's hope he doesn't get prostate fnord
22:56:23 <elliott_> oerjan: ??? is more coherent than ??? is more coherent than fungot is more ...
22:56:24 <fungot> elliott_: cast out into the land of donny and marie as promised in tv guide!
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22:56:31 * oerjan lets the rest of the logs be
22:57:23 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher homestuck ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
22:57:33 <oklopol> http://www.giantmicrobes.com/uk/products/diarrhea.html awwwwww :>
22:57:38 <evincar> So I'm making a little language for embedding. Currently the type system is limited to boolean, integer, float, string, object (list/dict), and lambda. Anything I should add or remove?
22:57:50 <elliott_> oklopol: now that's one thing I won't be buying
22:58:00 <elliott_> evincar: see my logs for responses to you wrt embedded languages (you made incorrect statements)
22:58:25 <oklopol> the best part is it looks like poop
22:58:29 <elliott_> 18:40:26: <elliott> 04:32:22: <evincar> When it comes to games especially, your only choices for good pre-existing scripting languages are Lua and Python.
22:58:30 <elliott_> 18:40:36: <elliott> Squirrel is used extensively in the game industry and is designed for the purpose
22:58:42 <elliott_> but yeah there are tons more languages suitable for embedding than that
22:58:51 <elliott_> and at least one expressly designed to meet the pseudo-real-time constraints of games
22:58:57 <elliott_> and widely used for the purpose
22:59:16 <zzo38> I can see that the description of category theory says you can use unit,fmap,join or you can do return,(>>=) and you can convert from one way to the other way.
22:59:16 <evincar> That one just slipped my mind.
22:59:17 <elliott_> "It is used extensively by Code::Blocks for scripting and was also used in Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles: My Life as a King[2] It is also used in Left 4 Dead 2 and Portal 2 for scripted events[3]."
22:59:36 <elliott_> it has tail recursion and generators and coroutines... so it's better than python already
23:00:02 <evincar> I'm just trying to make something minimal and useful.
23:00:55 <oklopol> some kiddo implemented scheme
23:01:00 <evincar> Prototypal OO is at least a reasonable balance.
23:01:20 <zzo38> For specifically MegaZeux, I use Robotic and Forth. For other game systems you need something different though
23:01:20 <elliott_> if by reasonable balance you mean shit then sure
23:01:24 <evincar> I mean, the thing'll have function composition &c, and is homoiconic.
23:01:37 <evincar> So you could add the fancy features that make Lisps so attractive.
23:01:58 <elliott_> you could add prototypical OO to scheme
23:02:03 <elliott_> so i don't se ehow that' srelevant
23:02:14 <elliott_> and also scheme doesn't have function composition
23:02:34 <evincar> So that's an advantage I'll have.
23:03:07 <evincar> Essentially I just want something simple and useful that's trivial to integrate with other systems.
23:03:08 <oklopol> we'll keep on struggling a bit longer
23:03:14 <evincar> I don't really care about a beautiful design.
23:03:19 <elliott_> <evincar> So that's an advantage I'll have.
23:03:22 <elliott_> WOW YOU HAVE FUNCTION COMPOSITION
23:03:29 <elliott_> im dropping everything let me know when your language is ready
23:03:36 <elliott_> you could shave a whole two lines off my scheme programs
23:03:46 <evincar> It's not supposed to be impressive. It's supposed to be practical.
23:03:49 <oklopol> but can i shave my balls with that language?
23:04:26 <evincar> You can shave your balls in any language.
23:04:31 <evincar> Assuming you shout while you do it.
23:04:32 <zzo38> I find that what is useful for integrate with other systems depends on the other system that you are dealing with.
23:04:42 <oklopol> GET THE FUCK OFF MY BALLS YOU PIECES OF SHIT
23:04:59 <evincar> Your hair is shit? That's unfortunate.
23:05:00 <oklopol> zzo38: you mean when shaving your balls?
23:05:13 <monqy> evincar: so what will your language be like will it be any good will i not hate it and want to die because of it
23:05:27 <monqy> most important questions
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23:06:33 <oklopol> okay i'm gonna go do important stuff, see you later friends :>>>>>>>
23:07:35 <evincar> monqy: Basically Self but cleaner and smaller. Everything's done with message-passing, which can be asynchronous or stepped if you like. I don't think it'll be warty enough to hate, but you might want to die if it becomes popular.
23:07:52 <evincar> Because it probably won't seem to deserve it.
23:09:00 <monqy> i never bothered learning self is there anything special about it
23:09:20 <evincar> Not particularly. It's essentially a minimal dialect of Smalltalk.
23:09:32 <evincar> You have things, you pass messages to them, they yield results.
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23:10:08 <evincar> elliott_: I do mean I'm going for minimalism.
23:10:21 <evincar> You shouldn't rely too much on a scripting language, after all.
23:10:22 <monqy> evincar: and what's this composition thing about which you talked
23:10:25 <elliott_> yep, that is indeed an incoherent reply
23:11:33 <evincar> monqy: You can compose functions however you like using partial application.
23:12:00 <monqy> what does this mean
23:13:18 <evincar> Well, trivially: add = { x, y => (x + y) }; succ = add 1;
23:14:00 <elliott_> partial application is not composition
23:14:32 <evincar> Right, when you apply a lambda to another lambda, you get a composed function.
23:15:11 <monqy> you do know what function composition is, right?
23:15:13 <evincar> So, I dunno, square = { x => (x * x) }; add_squares = add square square;
23:15:42 <evincar> Yes, I do know what function composition is.
23:16:30 <monqy> you seem to be having trouble with it
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23:16:45 <zzo38> Function composition is the . command in Haskell and the + command in MSE
23:17:53 <evincar> Right, so [add square square] x y == [add [square x] [square y]].
23:18:05 <monqy> sorry i have to leave now
23:18:50 <zzo38> In JavaScript: compose=function(f,g)(function(x)(f(g(x))));
23:19:06 <elliott_> evincar: so functions can't be higher-order now
23:19:35 <oklopol> i compose all my songs by partial application of my brain
23:19:39 <evincar> elliott_: Why wouldn't they be able to be?
23:20:48 <oklopol> full application of my brain is just overkill for that!
23:20:53 <oklopol> i mean come on look at this brain
23:21:25 <oklopol> well you can't but i'm NOT opening my skull with a matknife
23:23:14 <zzo38> evincar: Is that proper function composition? It does not seem like that to me
23:23:43 <zzo38> oklopol: Use X-ray vision to see? How well does that answer the question?
23:23:50 <elliott_> Which are absolutely not the same thing
23:23:52 <evincar> Meh, I might have missed some brackets, but the principle works.
23:24:20 <oklopol> zzo38: n/a unfortunately :\
23:24:43 <oklopol> well in principle, EVERYTHING is possible, even telepathy.
23:26:14 <zzo38> Telepathy is also one of the disciplines of psionics in D&D 3.5edition, but there are others too. (The dipciplines are psionics make a similar system to the schools of magic)
23:26:22 <evincar> elliott_: Could you give me an example of something you think wouldn't work with my setup?
23:26:33 <evincar> You're terribly fun to argue with.
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23:27:17 <zzo38> evnincar: Do you know JavaScript or Haskell?
23:27:39 <evincar> zzo38: JavaScript well, Haskell reasonably well.
23:28:41 <zzo38> I explained function composition in JavaScript so how would you do like that in your system?
23:29:50 <oklopol> composition is when you have like a thing and like another thing and then you like go YOU FUCKING PIECES OF SLUT JOIN TOGETHER IN THE NAME OF SATAN
23:30:06 <oklopol> i think i should sleep at some point
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23:30:13 <evincar> compose = { f, g => [f g] }; if you don't want to restrict the number of arguments.
23:30:22 <oerjan> the iwc mythbusters show is _so_ much better than the real one.
23:30:58 <olsner> oklopol: functional programming WITH SATAN
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23:32:10 <evincar> You could go for a literal translation of the JavaScript: compose = { f, g => { x => f [g x] } }
23:32:24 * oerjan may be biased by not actually watching the real one, or tv
23:33:31 <oerjan> evincar: i am also doubtful about higher-order functions.
23:33:52 <oklopol> yeah, i mean do they really make sense?
23:33:55 <NihilistDandy> oklopol: If that's not the best explanation of composition I've heard all week, I don't know what is
23:34:31 <evincar> I mean, I'd be glad if someone exposed a glaring inconsistency in all this.
23:34:36 <evincar> Because then I could fix it.
23:34:40 <evincar> But I don't think one's there.
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23:35:37 <oklopol> o great satan bring these two pieces of slut together in hole matrimony of arguments piping through both of them sequentially
23:35:50 <elliott_> evincar: how do i pass the function f to a function g
23:36:13 <elliott_> oklopol: no, that takes an argument x and evaluates [g [f x]]
23:36:18 <elliott_> 23:30:13: <evincar> compose = { f, g => [f g] }; if you don't want to restrict the number of arguments.
23:36:40 <oerjan> natural hellomorphisms
23:36:43 <oklopol> why does it have to mean only one thing?
23:37:07 <oklopol> what would be the point of evincar's language if it meant only one thing
23:38:22 <evincar> elliott_: I don't see a difference between a function taking a function as an argument, and some composition of those functions.
23:38:30 <elliott_> Lymee: Vorpal: What does it mean if there's a Goblin Master Thief not on the u list
23:38:37 <zzo38> evincar: But they are not the same thing
23:38:44 <evincar> Other than whether you're thinking of eager or lazy evaluation.
23:38:48 <evincar> In which case it's always lazy.
23:38:51 <oerjan> evincar: well let's say you want to implement haskell's foldr. how would you call it?
23:38:54 <evincar> When arguments are supplied, the function is evaluated.
23:39:13 <olsner> I wonder if you could make an esolang based on engrish, apparently I'm tired enough that this idea seems viable
23:39:50 <oerjan> wait, what is DrHylo :(
23:40:08 <NihilistDandy> http://wiki.di.uminho.pt/twiki/bin/view/Personal/Alcino/DrHylo
23:40:29 <oklopol> `addquote <evincar> elliott_: I don't see a difference between a function taking a function as an argument, and some composition of those functions.
23:40:31 <HackEgo> 596) <evincar> elliott_: I don't see a difference between a function taking a function as an argument, and some composition of those functions.
23:41:44 <elliott_> so say we have this haskell function
23:41:56 <elliott_> since in your language, [g f] is the equivalent of the Haskell \x -> g (f x)
23:41:58 <elliott_> how would one construct g here
23:42:11 <oerjan> NihilistDandy: ok i completely guessed wrong what that would be :P
23:42:21 <elliott_> Lymee: Vorpal: What's it mean if I have a goblin master thief not on the u list
23:42:42 <oerjan> something like a haskell/category theory style for fungot :P
23:42:43 <fungot> oerjan: i'll run it too see the time table yet. nothing that i know what currying is
23:43:13 <zzo38> I noticed now that some of the things in my Haskell program for Constantinople uses what is also fmap for monads although I used >>= instead
23:43:20 <fungot> NihilistDandy: so this is what a computer does? i'm not that good a category.
23:43:29 <elliott_> zzo38: you may wish to use the Applicative notation
23:43:32 <Vorpal> <elliott_> Lymee: Vorpal: What's it mean if I have a goblin master thief not on the u list <-- that he isn't on the u list?
23:43:50 <elliott_> zzo38: f <$> a <*> b <*> c === f `fmap` a `ap` b `ap` c (when talking about monads)
23:44:02 <evincar> elliott_: foldr = { f z; args => if (args empty) { z } else { f [first args] [foldr f z [rest args]] } };
23:44:04 <elliott_> (,,) <$> getLine <*> getLineDifferently
23:44:09 <zzo38> If I have: parse_tail = string "tail" >> expressionParser >>= return . (AppE (VarE 'p_tail));
23:44:11 <evincar> Of course it's not as pretty as Haskell because there's no pattern matching.
23:44:14 <elliott_> do x <- getLine; y <- getLineDifferently; return (x,y)
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23:44:29 <NihilistDandy> evincar: So make pattern matching happen. Hack it together
23:44:44 <elliott_> 23:44:02: <evincar> elliott_: foldr = { f z; args => if (args empty) { z } else { f [first args] [foldr f z [rest args]] } };
23:44:49 <elliott_> evincar: please answer my question, thanks.
23:44:56 <elliott_> <elliott_> so say we have this haskell function
23:44:56 <elliott_> <elliott_> since in your language, [g f] is the equivalent of the Haskell \x -> g (f x)
23:44:56 <elliott_> <elliott_> how would one construct g here
23:45:03 <elliott_> such that g is called as [g f]
23:45:10 <zzo38> Is it like: parse_tail = string "tail" >> fmap (AppE (VarE 'p_tail)) expressionParser if fmap f m = m >>= return . f
23:45:41 <elliott_> zzo38: yes. btw, (>>) is also available for Applicatives, as (*>).
23:45:49 <evincar> Oh. g = { f => ([f 0] + [f 9]) }.
23:45:53 <elliott_> zzo38: it also has the useful (<*) -- (a <* b) is like do{x <- a; b; return x}
23:45:59 <elliott_> see Control.Applicative documentation
23:46:11 <elliott_> evincar: because [g f] is the same as \x -> (g f) x
23:46:24 <elliott_> 23:36:18: <elliott_> 23:30:13: <evincar> compose = { f, g => [f g] }; if you don't want to restrict the number of arguments.
23:46:34 <elliott_> so [compose g f] actually returns an integer i guess
23:46:36 <elliott_> COOOOOOooOOOOOOOoooooOOOooooool
23:46:44 <elliott_> which it does because i said so
23:46:57 <elliott_> w/e this is stupid i'm going to go play df
23:47:08 <oklopol> he will so get it if you try 5 minutes longer
23:47:17 <elliott_> oklopol: exactly the conclusion i made
23:47:24 <elliott_> and oerjan is here to handle those five minutes
23:47:25 <evincar> You're just being argumentative for the sake of it, I'm assuming.
23:48:20 <oklopol> probably there isn't a difference between composition and application and we're just all delusional
23:48:41 <oklopol> is there a known counterexample where they are different?
23:49:00 <evincar> So, given g = { f => ([f 0] + [f 9]) }, [g succ] is the same as ([succ 0] + [succ 9]).
23:49:12 <elliott_> 23:47:25: <evincar> You're just being argumentative for the sake of it, I'm assuming.
23:49:15 <evincar> That's all I've been trying to say.
23:49:16 <elliott_> or maybe you're being an idiot
23:49:19 <elliott_> and i've decided I have better things to do
23:49:30 <elliott_> rather than provide counterexamples (which I have) of the fact that TWO INCREDIBLY COMMON BASIC CS CONCEPTS DIFFER
23:49:38 <zzo38> Are UNIX pipes like >>= or is it more like >=>
23:50:07 <Sgeo> :( I don't recognize >=>\
23:50:26 <lambdabot> forall a (m :: * -> *) b c. (Monad m) => (a -> m b) -> (b -> m c) -> a -> m c
23:50:49 <elliott_> because the "a" and "b" here are basically... the command-line arguments
23:50:58 <elliott_> that's the only reasonable sense you could give to them
23:51:09 <lambdabot> Control.Monad (>=>) :: Monad m => (a -> m b) -> (b -> m c) -> a -> m c
23:51:09 <elliott_> and unix pipes don't pass as arg- yeah, this is stupid
23:51:46 <zzo38> And how would it be in >==>>>=>===>>=>>====>>>>>==>=>>>
23:51:54 <shachaf> http://okmij.org/ftp/Computation/monadic-shell.html
23:52:59 <zzo38> The thing I notice is that (>=>) is directly associative
23:55:04 <elliott_> there's a cleaner form of the monad laws in terms of (>=>) too IIRC
23:55:21 <elliott_> is it as simple as "Kleisli = category"
23:57:48 <evincar> Okay, easy (if imperfect) way to explain it. In Haskell, you can write k = f $ g $ h $ value instead of k = f . g . h $ value. My language simply has uniform syntax for it.
23:58:46 <zzo38> Yes the monad laws in terms of (>=>) is that (>=>) is associative. And, I suppose, that return is the identity element. Maybe there are others too. Is this correct? Maybe I made some mistake I don't know for sure
23:59:06 <evincar> Barring the fact that $ doesn't, strictly speaking, do anything.
23:59:08 <elliott_> zzo38: That's what the laws of the Category typeclass are, too :P
23:59:59 <zzo38> elliott_: Category typeclass? What does that mean?