←2011-08-17 2011-08-18 2011-08-19→ ↑2011 ↑all
00:00:02 <Sgeo> I'm pretty sure that I can't use map there though
00:00:11 <monqy> do?
00:00:13 <monqy> what's that about
00:00:20 <monqy> why is that there
00:00:22 <Sgeo> monqy, if I find it unnecessary, I'd remove it
00:00:28 <Sgeo> At the end of this writing
00:03:30 <Sgeo> Need imports
00:03:53 <elliott> Don't care about imports
00:03:58 <elliott> Show?
00:04:17 <Sgeo> I still have no idea if it's typed correctly!
00:04:27 <Sgeo> main = getArgs >>= map (openFile ReadMode) >>= map hGetContents >>= sequence >>= putStr
00:04:31 <Sgeo> Still working on checking
00:04:47 <Sgeo> No, just realized it won't typecheck
00:04:51 <elliott> Prelude System.Environment System.IO> :t getArgs >>= map (openFile ReadMode) >>= map hGetContents >>= sequence >>= putStr
00:04:52 <elliott> <interactive>:1:13:
00:04:52 <elliott> Couldn't match expected type `IO a0' with actual type `[b0]'
00:04:52 <elliott> Expected type: [String] -> IO a0
00:04:52 <elliott> Actual type: [String] -> [b0]
00:04:53 <elliott> In the return type of a call of `map'
00:04:55 <elliott> In the second argument of `(>>=)', namely `map (openFile ReadMode)'
00:04:57 <Sgeo> Need to concatenate the strings
00:05:07 <Sgeo> Oh, blah
00:05:26 <Sgeo> I could hack a fix with returns probably
00:05:45 <elliott> Sgeo: You must print out each file as it's read, btw. You can rely on laziness to do this, but if one file takes half a second to read and another half an hour, then the half-second read should get printed before the half an hour starts.
00:05:50 <elliott> (Assuming it's earlier on the command-line.)
00:06:04 <elliott> That should be pretty easy.
00:06:53 <Sgeo> Let me work on getting this to type first?
00:07:31 <elliott> I'm just telling you how the final program needs to work.
00:08:10 <Sgeo> Blargh
00:08:19 <Sgeo> My return hack didn't wor
00:08:39 <elliott> Your implementation of cat has hacks?
00:08:42 <Sgeo> I'm going to use full do-notation first, I think, then work on getting that
00:08:55 <monqy> so sgeo doesn't know haskell
00:09:44 <elliott> He just hasn't finished yet, that's all
00:15:05 <Sgeo> @hoogle [String] -> String
00:15:05 <lambdabot> Prelude unlines :: [String] -> String
00:15:05 <lambdabot> Prelude unwords :: [String] -> String
00:15:05 <lambdabot> Data.List unlines :: [String] -> String
00:15:16 <elliott> Sgeo: concat.
00:15:26 <PatashuDragonite> wouldn't unwords work?
00:15:27 <Sgeo> @hoogle concat
00:15:28 <lambdabot> Prelude concat :: [[a]] -> [a]
00:15:28 <lambdabot> Data.ByteString concat :: [ByteString] -> ByteString
00:15:28 <lambdabot> Data.Foldable concat :: Foldable t => t [a] -> [a]
00:15:55 <Sgeo> Hmm, I probably should avoid straightforward concatenation at this point
00:16:23 <Sgeo> Although I don't see how concat would... oh, derp
00:16:32 <monqy> ???
00:16:52 <Sgeo> type String = [Char]
00:17:17 <Sgeo> ...did I actually forget the syntax for comments in Haskell?
00:18:08 <elliott> --, {-...-}
00:18:15 <elliott> You should not need any comments.
00:19:22 <Sgeo> @hoogle openFile
00:19:22 <lambdabot> System.IO openFile :: FilePath -> IOMode -> IO Handle
00:19:28 <Sgeo> Something's lying to me here
00:19:28 <Sgeo> Oh
00:19:37 <monqy> hm?
00:19:50 <Sgeo> n/m, must have misread that as IOMode -> FilePath -> IO Handle
00:19:51 <Sgeo> before
00:20:05 <Sgeo> Easy enough to fix
00:21:07 <Sgeo> Although it's ugly
00:22:36 <Sgeo> @hoogle (a -> b) -> IO a -> IO b
00:22:36 <lambdabot> Prelude fmap :: Functor f => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
00:22:36 <lambdabot> Control.Applicative (<$>) :: Functor f => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
00:22:36 <lambdabot> Control.Monad fmap :: Functor f => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
00:23:47 <Sgeo> WTF am I doing?
00:24:33 <elliott> fmap.
00:24:39 <elliott> Or (<$>).
00:25:10 <Sgeo> I'm pretty sure I'm using it wrongly here
00:26:52 * Sgeo cries
00:27:52 <elliott> Sgeo: You're having an awful lot of troubles writing cat.
00:28:06 <Sgeo> Would be easier if it was one file
00:28:08 <Sgeo> >.>
00:28:25 <Sgeo> Maybe I should just make a function that deals with one file, and just... do it repeately
00:32:08 <Sgeo> printArg :: String -> IO ()
00:32:08 <Sgeo> printArg file = openFile file ReadMode >>= hGetContents >>= putStr
00:32:10 <Sgeo> That was easy
00:32:52 <monqy> there are better ways
00:33:48 <elliott> monqy: Hey, let him write his own pogram.
00:33:49 <monqy> also are you ever closing those files?
00:33:52 <monqy> :(
00:33:54 <elliott> hGetContents closes files.
00:33:58 <monqy> oh
00:34:59 <Sgeo> http://hpaste.org/50411
00:35:17 <Sgeo> Seems to work, not 100% certain if it follows the requirement for dealing with large files
00:35:23 <Sgeo> But I .. think it should
00:35:32 <elliott> Sgeo: It does. (It isn't about size, but latency.)
00:35:43 <elliott> Sgeo: OK, can I ask you to make a simple modification to that program?
00:35:51 <Sgeo> Ok...
00:35:52 <elliott> Before the contents of each file, print the line "--- filename ---" (with no quotes) above.
00:35:53 <monqy> elliott: without tidying it up first? :(
00:36:01 <elliott> monqy: He can write it however he likes.
00:36:05 -!- PatashuDragonite has quit (Quit: MSN: Patashu@hotmail.com , Gmail: Patashu0@gmail.com , AIM: Patashu0 , YIM: patashu2 .).
00:38:24 <Sgeo> hpaste gives recommendations...
00:38:34 <elliott> They're just HLint recommendations. Feel free to ignore.
00:38:42 <Sgeo> http://hpaste.org/50412
00:39:28 <elliott> Okay. Here are my solutions (imports Control.Monad and System.Environment):
00:39:29 <elliott> main = getArgs >>= mapM_ (readFile >=> putStr)
00:39:32 <elliott> and
00:39:32 <elliott> main = getArgs >>= mapM_ (\fn -> putBanner fn >> readFile fn >>= putStr)
00:39:33 <elliott> where putBanner = putStrLn . (++ " ---") . ("--- " ++)
00:39:44 <elliott> The first one took about thirty seconds, the latter took about the same time to modify.
00:40:28 <Sgeo> @hoogle (>=>)
00:40:29 <lambdabot> Control.Monad (>=>) :: Monad m => (a -> m b) -> (b -> m c) -> a -> m c
00:42:19 <tswett> Gregor: not to ask you a question I've already asked you before, but what's a better programming language than Python?
00:42:38 <tswett> Python has, like, first-class functions and duck typing and "eval".
00:42:39 <elliott> tswett: Almost every language in existence?
00:42:41 <elliott> (I am Gregor.)
00:42:50 <elliott> tswett: Two bugs and a feature?
00:43:20 <tswett> tswett: and I'm mostly asking about P-languages specifically. Haskell doesn't count.
00:43:36 <Sgeo> P-languages?
00:43:47 <Sgeo> Python doesn't have nice lambdas
00:44:03 <Gregor> <tswett> Python has, like, first-class functions and duck typing and "eval". // One poorly-implemented feature, one nonfeature and one irrelevant feature.
00:44:20 <tswett> Gregor: respectively?
00:44:23 <Gregor> Yes.
00:44:26 <elliott> tswett: P-languages?
00:44:32 <monqy> nonfeature? P-languages? help?
00:44:33 <tswett> elliott: ask Gregor.
00:44:37 <Sgeo> Can Ruby even be said to have first-class functions?
00:44:37 <Gregor> It has 1.5th-class functions, as its lambda syntax is a joke.
00:44:38 <elliott> Gregor: P-languages?
00:44:51 <elliott> Sgeo: It has lambda, so... yes?
00:44:52 <Gregor> elliott: Those languages that start with P: Perl, Python, PHP, Ruby. Yes, Ruby starts with a P.
00:45:12 <elliott> tswett: So you are asking "What's a better language than Python in [list of bad languages]?"
00:45:16 <elliott> Awesome question, man.
00:45:24 <Sgeo> It has a lambda that isn't an object unless you put lambda or proc or something in front
00:45:25 <tswett> It starts with a P, followed by a little backslash, followed by three more letters.
00:45:28 <Sgeo> Which is just... ick
00:45:32 <monqy> ruby lambda is like it makes an object that encapsulates a function doesn't it
00:45:35 <elliott> Sgeo: lambda {|x| puts "Yep this is a lambda."}
00:45:45 <elliott> (lambda (x) (display "Yep this is a lambda.") (newline))
00:45:49 <monqy> if you actually try using functions without putting them in weirdo objects it doesn't work
00:46:01 <monqy> where by using I mean treating them like first-class citizens
00:46:12 <tswett> \x -> putStrLn "Oi ay, lambda"
00:46:13 <elliott> monqy: No wrapping is involved.
00:46:19 <monqy> oh?
00:46:20 <elliott> monqy: It makes the tradeoff that functions apply without needing parentheses.
00:46:27 <elliott> So it's ambiguous with zero-argument applications.
00:46:37 <elliott> So you use method(:foo) instead.
00:46:40 <tswett> Gregor: perhaps my real question is whether or not Ruby is better than Python.
00:46:45 <elliott> Or [ampersand]:foo in recent Rubies as sugar.
00:46:47 <tswett> And, if so, whether Ruby is still shit-level.
00:46:50 <Gregor> I have insufficient experience with Ruby to judge.
00:46:55 <monqy> anyway I dislike ruby
00:46:56 <Gregor> All languages are terrible.
00:46:56 <elliott> I've used Ruby extensively.
00:47:01 <elliott> It's worse than Python and shit-level.
00:47:06 <Gregor> I know Ruby has some inheritance from Perl, which is scary ...
00:47:06 <elliott> Or it's slightly better.
00:47:08 <elliott> It's hard to tell.
00:47:09 <Sgeo> Worse than Python?
00:47:19 <elliott> But basically it's on the same rung as Python so I'd rather die.
00:47:30 <elliott> tswett: Out of curiosity, what are your reasons for excluding Haskell by name?
00:47:45 <monqy> it doesn't start with p
00:47:57 <elliott> monqy: It starts with P as much as Ruby does.
00:48:07 <monqy> ruby starts with p okay
00:48:08 <Sgeo> Or a letter that is almost like a P
00:48:10 <tswett> elliott: it doesn't have runtime compiling. Or runtime setting, for that matter.
00:48:19 <elliott> tswett: Sure it does.
00:48:24 <elliott> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/hint
00:48:24 <monqy> what's runhaskell help
00:48:31 <elliott> tswett: Does this do what you need?
00:48:49 <Sgeo> tswett, syntax-wise, Smalltalk is much nicer than Ruby imo
00:48:49 <Gregor> "P-languages" really means "that family of imperative dynamic languages that are all used for approximately the same purpose and came to exist for pragmatic reasons"
00:48:56 <monqy> unless you want like eval and stuff in which case use one of those funky libraries yeah
00:49:10 <elliott> Gregor: Haskell can be used as an imperative language trivially; as a dynamic language when required pretty easily.
00:49:20 <elliott> Gregor: I'm saying this separately from my usual half-joking fanboyishness.
00:49:38 <elliott> You really can just stuff your entire program in IO if that's convenient :-P
00:49:43 <Gregor> Sure, whatever you say, just face away from me while Haskelljackoffing :P
00:51:27 <monqy> is there a good p-language
00:51:32 <monqy> also why do you want a p-language
00:51:54 <elliott> tswett: I'm not sure what exactly you mean by "dynamic setting", but hint definitely provides the first thing.
00:52:07 <elliott> With much more useful infrastructure than most languages' "eval", I note.
00:56:30 <tswett> Gregor: what's your FAVORITE programming language.
00:56:32 <tswett> Period.
00:58:37 <Sgeo> Ruby has a nicer equivalent to C# properties than either C# or Python, imo
00:58:40 <elliott> Plof 4.
00:58:42 <elliott> Gregor: amirite
00:58:58 <Sgeo> Then again, I forgot what Python's are.
00:59:02 <monqy> what are c# properties and why do you need them
00:59:27 <elliott> tswett: So are you gonna answer me? :-P
00:59:47 <Sgeo> Code that runs when you try to access something like myobj.name or set myobj.name if myobj.name is a property
01:00:13 <tswett> elliott: no, it doesn't have this arbitrary feature that, despite being necessary to what I want to do, I haven't actually told you.
01:00:31 <monqy> feature: not being haskell
01:00:43 <tswett> monqy: remarkably close.
01:00:48 <elliott> tswett: Then what's the feature? I would be very surprised if it were not achievable in Haskell, since I just provided eval.
01:00:55 <Sgeo> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/x9fsa0sw.aspx#Y86
01:01:01 <tswett> The feature is being able to turn any value into a string of bytes. This is an antifeature of Haskell.
01:01:09 <tswett> I.e. one of the features of Haskell is that it lacks this feature.
01:01:27 <elliott> tswett: You can serialise any value with a Data instance.
01:01:42 <elliott> tswett: And all the standard types have Data instances.
01:01:49 <elliott> And you can give a Data instance to pretty much any type you want.
01:01:53 <elliott> (It's the generics infrastructure.)
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01:02:18 * Gregor reappears.
01:02:26 <tswett> elliott: so -> has a Data instance?
01:02:30 <Sgeo> Vs the second example in v
01:02:31 <Sgeo> http://www.rubyist.net/~slagell/ruby/accessors.html
01:02:31 <Gregor> <tswett> Gregor: what's your FAVORITE programming language. <elliott> Plof 4. // daaaaaaaaamn rite
01:02:32 <tswett> And IO?
01:02:45 <Gregor> But more to the point, every language is so terrible that that's a difficult question to answer.
01:03:22 <tswett> My favorite programming language is, of course, Jath. Which is, you know, that programming language I'm going to specify and implement one of these days.
01:03:34 <elliott> tswett: Serialising (->) is a bit more difficult, but I think you could do it with the GHC API (if you run the code with the functions through the GHC API).
01:03:34 <monqy> is it a bad language
01:03:36 <tswett> It's going to be exactly like two of the following: Haskell, Lua, Smalltalk.
01:03:43 <elliott> IO is just a function, so that'll give you the rest.
01:04:10 <monqy> haskell is okay. I think I dislike lua. never bothered smalltalk oops.
01:04:13 <elliott> Gregor: I should really finish off my Plof changes so I can play about with implementing Plof-like languages on Fythe :-P
01:05:04 <tswett> In fact, all of the goals of Jath could theoretically be achieved by implementing Haskell in Lua and Lua in Smalltalk. But that's a pretty awful solution.
01:05:27 <elliott> Why do you want it to be like Lua, Lua is awful.
01:05:29 <tswett> So, what is this GHC API? It sounds like an API to GHC, or something.
01:05:30 <pikhq_> Gregor: Though un-Haskell-like, it is entirely feasible to write what amounts to C code in Haskell without too much difficulty
01:05:44 <tswett> Lua has precisely one useful feature, and that's the setfenv function.
01:06:03 <Gregor> pikhq_: Yes, if you want to be ostracized by both communities.
01:06:14 <pikhq_> Your entire program will be in IO, and you'll have enough peek and poke to make anyone sweat, but it's not *hard*.
01:06:19 <elliott> Gregor: Only one might ostracise you.
01:06:26 <elliott> Gregor: Plenty of internal code in e.g. bytestring and the like looks like C.
01:06:36 <elliott> Haskell is a multi-paradigm language.
01:07:05 <monqy> setfenv looks kind of gross
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01:07:16 <monqy> surely there's a better way
01:07:22 <elliott> setfenv looks like a great way to break every security guarantee in the world.
01:08:38 <tswett> setfenv is kind of a gross way to do security, yes.
01:08:56 <tswett> Though it is... similar... to Unix's security model.
01:09:04 <Sgeo> tswett, are you looking to make an online nomic like thing?
01:09:21 <tswett> Sgeo: yep.
01:09:29 <Sgeo> What's wrong with the MOO?
01:09:31 <tswett> JathNomic. The *only* nomic.
01:09:39 <tswett> Well... nothing, really.
01:10:15 <Sgeo> Ruby... has some security stuff. But supposedly the built-in stuff isn't meant for defending against malicious code
01:10:16 <elliott> What MOO?
01:10:25 <tswett> LambdaMOO is pretty good at being a MOO, and I would have difficulty building something better.
01:10:36 <tswett> elliott: nomic.zbasu.net, a supposedly-codenomic MOO.
01:10:55 <elliott> tswett: Lemme know how much longer than Normish it lasts
01:10:56 <tswett> It's not actually a nomic, because I haven't gotten around to writing the part that runs code that people vote in favor of.
01:11:01 <tswett> Will do.
01:11:38 <Sgeo> Also, although Ruby's security stuff could partition untrusted from trusted, it would put all untrusted in the same boat I think
01:17:18 <zzo38> I think there should be a function in Haskell of type overrideIO :: SystemInterface -> IO x -> IO x which allows you to have a SystemInterface type telling all function to override kind of I/O actions and then you can override it and it return the proper I/O action which can be main or whatever.
01:25:27 <Sgeo> It's not a bad idea to use continuations in Ruby, is it?
01:25:51 <monqy> ,addquote
01:27:21 <elliott> `dadquote
01:27:25 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: dadquote: not found
01:41:08 * Sgeo decides to try "Ruby Koans"
01:42:03 <elliott> `querk
01:42:04 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: querk: not found
01:43:24 <monqy> ruby koans?
01:43:32 <elliott> Sgeo: IM INTERNET FAMOUS BE JEALOUS
01:43:45 <monqy> help
01:44:04 <Sgeo> elliott, hmm
01:44:06 <Sgeo> ?
01:44:14 <elliott> http://contemplatecode.blogspot.com/2011/08/haskell-weekly-news-issue-195.html
01:44:16 <elliott> FAAAAAAAMOUS
01:45:16 <monqy> elliott c++ templates guru
01:45:18 <Sgeo> elliott, lol
01:45:32 <elliott> monqy: Yep
01:46:52 <monqy> what's this trifecta thing
01:47:03 <elliott> monqy: a good parsing library by edwardk
01:47:15 <elliott> monqy: you know how clang has like precise error locations with carets and other things pointing to ranges
01:47:24 <elliott> trifecta gives you that pretty much automagically
01:47:28 <monqy> mmm
01:48:07 <monqy> will give it a look next time I need to parse something
01:48:37 <elliott> I should ask him how fast it is
01:48:55 <elliott> monqy: oh and it does automatic syntax highlighting??
01:48:59 <elliott> so errors get highlighted and stuff...
02:06:35 -!- Nisstyre has changed nick to yourstruly.
02:36:13 <Sgeo> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3568222/array-slicing-in-ruby-looking-for-explanation-for-illogical-behaviour-taken-fro
02:36:17 <Sgeo> That's entirely "sane"
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03:07:51 <Sgeo> Trying to teach lambdas to someone who's being first introduced to them in Ruby
03:07:55 <Sgeo> I'm going to cry
03:10:08 <elliott> Please just never try and teach anyone anything.
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03:49:38 <itidus20> lets not wander around the mulberry bush beating our heads
03:50:16 <itidus20> oops i may have misinterpreted the last few posts
03:51:03 <oerjan> `addquote <itidus20> lets not wander around the mulberry bush beating our heads
03:51:05 <HackEgo> 599) <itidus20> lets not wander around the mulberry bush beating our heads
03:51:10 <oerjan> just saving elliott work, here
03:52:10 <itidus20> i kinda did that one on purpose
03:52:24 <oerjan> scandalous!
03:52:43 <itidus20> so.... most aspects of mathematics is considered non-trivial
03:53:08 <itidus20> arithmetic for example involves some memorization of the core set of additions
03:53:24 <itidus20> 4+5=9, 3+3=6, 7+5=12
03:53:33 <oerjan> um that one is pretty trivial, thinks a mathematician
03:54:09 <itidus20> depends... everyone learns it soem time or other
03:54:48 <oerjan> incidentally, homological algebra and probably category theory are known for having nearly all proofs be absolutely trivial routine
03:55:11 <itidus20> what i am heading towards is,
03:55:28 <oerjan> the theorems and definitions are important, but the proofs all go essentially the same way
03:55:28 <itidus20> if the tricky part of addition is memorizing rote single digit additions
03:55:44 <itidus20> what is the tricky part of lambda calculus?
03:56:08 <oerjan> itidus20: if you used binary there wouldn't be any tricky part left to addition. which is presumably why computers do that.
03:56:28 <oerjan> well that and two states being simple for electronics
03:56:50 <itidus20> why doesn't your grandma know lambda calculus?
03:57:10 <itidus20> maybe she does.. i am supposing a lot
03:57:13 <oerjan> in implementations, the tricky part of lambda calculus is frequently getting efficient alpha conversion, i think
03:57:37 <itidus20> why would i expect the local mayor not to know lambda calculus
03:57:40 <oerjan> you either have to make up lots of names on the fly, or use a clever nameless representation
03:58:13 <itidus20> what makes mathematicians privy to an understanding of this thing lambda calculus :D
03:58:37 <itidus20> is it like another language?
03:58:49 <itidus20> i am not fluent in italian for example
03:59:10 <Sgeo> Being able to break if is not a good argument against a language
03:59:16 <oerjan> it's the concept of naming and definition distilled down to its smallest core, i think
04:00:36 <itidus20> i am simply trying to understand what lambda calculus is by defining why i don't know it
04:00:39 <itidus20> hehehe
04:01:34 <itidus20> well..... is it widely useful?
04:01:37 <oerjan> because it has never been declared a skill every citizen needs to know
04:01:43 <elliott> when extended yes
04:01:43 <itidus20> ahh
04:02:06 <elliott> haskell and scheme both derive from lambda calculus in some form
04:03:42 <oerjan> was scheme the first programming language which included lambda calculus properly?
04:03:55 <oerjan> original lisp bungled the scoping
04:03:56 <elliott> well scheme is strict...
04:04:07 <oerjan> oh right, so maybe even scheme didn't
04:04:13 <elliott> lisp had lex scoping before scheme i think.
04:04:26 <elliott> albeit nondefault
04:04:29 <oerjan> hm
04:04:36 <elliott> miranda?
04:04:52 <oerjan> maybe
04:04:56 <itidus20> i guess what i am wondering is what is the crucial bootstrapping concept to understand lambda calc
04:05:08 <itidus20> now this sounds odd to me cos i have a gigantic book on regular calc
04:05:13 <elliott> itidus20: the lambda calculus.
04:05:19 <oerjan> well if we are going to disqualify scheme for being strict, we must disqualify miranda for being statically typed ;P
04:05:27 <elliott> it is unrelated to calculus
04:05:51 <elliott> oerjan: i am sure it can do lc = (lc -> lc)...
04:06:13 <elliott> hm or maybe not
04:06:29 <oerjan> itidus20: church representations is crucial, i think, to understand how lambda calculus can embed all other (pure) programming concepts
04:06:33 <oerjan> *are
04:06:38 <elliott> oerjan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SASL_(programming_language)
04:06:51 <elliott> untyped, lazy
04:07:06 <oerjan> aha
04:07:22 <itidus20> oerjan: it just seems like it is one concept which no matter how long you look at it, it resists yielding
04:07:34 <itidus20> i am trying to see where i am going wrong
04:07:35 <elliott> lc is easy
04:08:10 <elliott> oerjan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_Recursive_Calculator seems to be the big leap towards miranda/haskell
04:08:15 <oerjan> itidus20: it is just a bit obfuscated?
04:08:27 <elliott> implemented in bcpl...
04:08:52 <itidus20> is it the case that you have to revise dozens of other concepts to make room for it? :D
04:08:54 -!- pumpkin has joined.
04:08:58 <oerjan> itidus20: maybe it's the core of higher-order functionalness
04:09:12 <elliott> itidus20: no
04:09:21 <itidus20> how hard can 1 concept be, ya know :D
04:09:33 <elliott> lc isn't hard
04:09:39 <itidus20> i wonder how new scientist would explain it
04:09:57 <oerjan> itidus20: because unlike arithmetic, lambda calculus does not talk about anything but itself, so you cannot ground it in anything but itself, without translating to it
04:10:42 <itidus20> ahhh
04:10:48 <oerjan> itidus20: maybe that is it.
04:11:00 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
04:11:02 <itidus20> (don't worry i ask the buddhists similar questions about nirvana)
04:11:05 <elliott> oerjan: /msg :P
04:11:13 <oerjan> elliott: i noticed.
04:11:23 <elliott> how would new scientist expain nirvana
04:11:38 <itidus20> the best answer i was turned towards was the vacchagotta sutta
04:12:14 <itidus20> you guys might like it
04:12:19 <oerjan> itidus20: of course you can _add_ the ability to talk about other things than just functions, like haskell does
04:12:26 <itidus20> the specific part of it i have in mind anyway
04:12:33 <oerjan> but it's not part of the core
04:13:03 <itidus20> oerjan: ok so.. I intuitively want to link it to other ideas
04:13:12 <itidus20> to exploit things like analogy and metaphor
04:13:22 <elliott> you can't.
04:13:30 <itidus20> and that would be what is hard
04:13:50 <elliott> no. this applies to everything nontrivial.
04:13:59 <elliott> analogies are not knowledge.
04:14:14 <sut-heb> and knowledge not finite
04:15:05 <sut-heb> lol siriously i came here cause i thought this was an occult chat
04:15:13 <sut-heb> programmers in a different sence
04:15:18 <elliott> it is most definitely not
04:15:23 <itidus20> sut-heb: hahahah hahahah
04:15:38 <elliott> freenode is mainly about programming.]
04:15:39 <oerjan> sut-heb: well you're not the first. although it may be rare for them to stay this long...
04:15:53 <sut-heb> cause i find the way you guys speak interesting
04:16:15 <sut-heb> where not to different
04:16:26 <elliott> anyway knowledge is finite
04:16:38 <itidus20> i am a newbie here anyway
04:16:39 <elliott> brain has finite capacity, qed
04:16:47 <sut-heb> conciousness is finite, knowledge is material
04:16:48 -!- MDude has changed nick to MSleep.
04:16:58 <elliott> sigh
04:17:06 <sut-heb> i wont go there
04:17:11 <sut-heb> you guys can get back to your chat
04:17:19 <sut-heb> sorry for the interruption
04:17:35 <itidus20> sut-heb: in reality esoteric programming languages seems to focus on mathematically interesting ones
04:17:42 <itidus20> i am not a mathematician though
04:17:54 <sut-heb> i hate math myself
04:18:13 <itidus20> it may be that i have got it all wrong
04:18:28 <itidus20> and that mathematicians just happen to be the people who are most interested in esoteric languages
04:19:09 <oerjan> well without math, attempts to make esoteric languages tend to end up as just syntactic obfuscation
04:19:27 <monqy> i.e. bad
04:19:35 <sut-heb> In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God
04:19:49 <sut-heb> but we speak of number and symbolism behinde each letter
04:20:11 <elliott> sut-heb: no.
04:20:27 * oerjan should get some popcorn. if he had any.
04:20:35 <sut-heb> each creating there own different manifestation when combiuned with one another, making words manifesdt into physical form
04:20:50 <elliott> technobabble.
04:21:25 <sut-heb> anywys you guys do what you do,
04:21:46 <elliott> ok
04:22:44 <monqy> hi im back from not paying attention
04:22:53 <monqy> did i miss exciting envigourating chat
04:25:06 <oerjan> monqy: nah everyone backed off :P
04:25:15 <monqy> :'(
04:27:41 <zzo38> What are comonads for?
04:27:53 <elliott> things :)
04:27:53 <monqy> comonadic stuff
04:28:23 <monqy> I think one time I almost used comonads but then I didn't
04:30:11 <itidus20> so i have this old ikea catalogue.
04:31:23 <zzo38> Are extract and duplicate like the opposite of return and join?
04:31:30 <elliott> yep
04:37:29 <monqy> so the night before last I had a dream and I remember two interesting enough parts
04:38:26 <elliott> yay
04:38:40 <monqy> there's a human heart on a table and my other is poking it and I tell her not to poke it because she doesn't know what it is for and bad things could happen but she keeps poking it and peeling at it and this frustrated me
04:38:44 <monqy> er
04:38:47 <monqy> other/mother
04:38:55 <monqy> my mother was poking and peeling at the human heart
04:39:02 <elliott> wow
04:39:07 <monqy> I don't think she had gloves on either
04:39:16 <monqy> anyway the other part I remember is
04:39:36 <monqy> I had to go to a book store and help this lady I didn't know (and I don't know why I had to help her) with book carrying or something
04:40:40 <monqy> after doing checkout I realized I wanted to buy some books of my own but I didn't have money on me (but this was weird because I determined this by leafing through a bunch of money I had in my pocket???) so I asked if I could borrow some money and she said sure and walked to her car
04:40:54 <monqy> and drove back and then she was my grandmother and she forgot about the money instead she had teddy bears
04:41:08 <monqy> i think i forgot about the money too until it was too late
04:41:14 <monqy> but the teddy bears were nice
04:41:31 <elliott> lol
04:41:41 <oerjan> <monqy> other/mother <-- i think one is supposed to pay attention to freudian slips when interpreting dreams, just noting :P
04:41:54 <monqy> it was a typo
04:41:57 <monqy> :'((
04:42:08 <oerjan> monqy: no such thing as a typo in this circumstance
04:42:15 <monqy> im shame
04:42:18 <monqy> shame corner
04:42:19 <monqy> crying
04:42:53 <oerjan> that was some reaction. must be a very important slip, then ;P
04:43:34 <monqy> I don't think I knew what the human heart was for either
04:43:43 <monqy> presumably medicine and/or science
04:44:05 <monqy> but poking it was certainly an inappropriate reaction
04:44:09 <monqy> maybe she thought she was cleaning it
04:44:11 <oerjan> well the _obvious_ interpretation is that it's _your_ heart somehow.
04:44:25 <monqy> have you tried interpreting my other dreams
04:44:31 <monqy> like the one where my family dies then i get raped
04:44:41 <oerjan> ...let's not.
04:44:48 <sut-heb> lol
04:45:11 <sut-heb> siriously why not help this man if you can?
04:45:38 <zzo38> Can you interpret *my* dream with insufficient information?
04:45:53 <oerjan> sut-heb: because i just got an intuitive feeling in _my_ heart that i've gone too far.
04:46:01 <sut-heb> no but i can with relevent sarcasm
04:46:14 <monqy> or for a lighter dream, perhaps three nights ago's, when I had to help my sisters with recycling education by putting inflatable cans in a bin but instead i wanted to eat them and picked them up with my mouth and chewed on them before putting them in the bin
04:46:50 <monqy> or the one with the soup. I think that one's in `quote, so it's convenient
04:47:06 <sut-heb> sorry im very intuative but that feeling does not come across
04:47:20 <itidus20> monqy: lets not rush this
04:48:08 <itidus20> when you figure out whats going on in your dreams you may want a shot of whiskey
04:48:22 <monqy> im underage
04:48:38 <itidus20> underage with a mensa-like iq?
04:48:48 <monqy> sure
04:48:51 <itidus20> wow
04:48:55 <oerjan> itidus20: that's like the standard for this channel.
04:49:08 <oerjan> it's not mandatory, mind you.
04:49:10 <itidus20> i'm 29 :-s
04:49:16 * oerjan is 41
04:50:18 <zzo38> I think once I had a dream where it changed every time I blink.
04:50:29 <itidus20> monqy: ok so i'll break this down for you a bit
04:50:58 <itidus20> my brother recently gave me a book he has got for himself entitled "letting go of shame"
04:51:11 <itidus20> so its all about the shame thing
04:51:34 <zzo38> Now you need to give him a book entitled "letting go of book"
04:52:02 <sut-heb> mensa people read this material?
04:52:13 <itidus20> im not mensa related
04:52:27 <itidus20> but... i mean.. the general intelligence in this room is very high is what i meant
04:52:36 <sut-heb> indeed
04:52:40 <itidus20> i feel pretty dumb in here
04:52:46 <sut-heb> why?
04:52:48 <itidus20> but don't get me wrong.. my ego is huge
04:52:59 <sut-heb> no one's stupid
04:53:01 <monqy> your ego is huge?
04:53:15 <itidus20> yup
04:53:21 <monqy> I'm honestly surprised
04:53:27 <itidus20> or it might not be
04:53:37 <monqy> maybe I'm bad at judging ego size
04:53:39 <zzo38> I refuse to be a member of Mensa. I know other people too who have refused, but I don't know whether or not it is same reason
04:53:42 <itidus20> it has been cut down to size by some genuinely smart people
04:53:46 <itidus20> it used to be huge perhaps
04:54:02 <oerjan> huh haskell's > literate programming style was borrowed from miranda
04:54:24 <sut-heb> don't worry your ego will be a driving force, it was intraduced to the human race, for its ability to teach the faculty of knowledge
04:54:32 <itidus20> monqy: it was smart until i actually joined IRC and surrounded myself with people who actually do things
04:54:48 <itidus20> i mean.. ego was big^
04:54:58 <zzo38> oerjan: I did not know that.
04:55:10 <itidus20> and it dawns on me... wow i am really dragging my boots
04:55:29 <itidus20> but also.. a few guys teaching me things showed me how im not nearly as smart as i thought i was
04:56:41 <itidus20> having said all that.. i don't subscribe to IQ as a meaningful measure anyway
04:58:32 <oerjan> zzo38: well it should not be surprising, haskell borrowed a _lot_ from there. in fact looking at wikipedia's miranda examples i only notice minor differences in syntax.
04:58:35 <zzo38> I define your IQ as what would be your score on an ideal IQ test, where 100 is defined as average. It is correlated but not the same as intelligence. And even intelligence cannot really be defined by any numbers since it is more complicated than that. (Even though IQ stands for "Intelligence Quotient"; well, there is simply not better words for it)
04:59:11 <oerjan> || for comments, ~= for equality, * for a type variable
04:59:36 <zzo38> Monad axioms: Kleisli composition forms a category. [It is haiku form]
04:59:58 <oerjan> oh wait there's this syntax which haskell doesn't have: powers_of_2 = [ n | n <- 1, 2*n .. ]
04:59:58 <pikhq> itidus20: I'd argue that IQ is actually a meaningful measure *in its original intent*.
05:00:03 <sut-heb> everyone has there own individual monad
05:00:04 <pikhq> Namely, as a measure of mental *disability*.
05:00:29 <pikhq> In this, it seems to function. Imperfectly, but meaningfully, nevertheless.
05:00:44 <zzo38> pikhq: Maybe it might.
05:01:00 <zzo38> That seems a bit more like what it seems to do to me, a bit.
05:01:24 <sut-heb> three hemispheres of the brain
05:02:09 <zzo38> sut-heb: What does that mean? For everyone to have their own monad and so on
05:02:29 <monqy> perhaps sut-heb monads are not our monads
05:02:40 <oerjan> <zzo38> Now you need to give him a book entitled "letting go of book" <-- i saw a comic like that recently, unfortunately it was in norwegian. someone sold a woman a bunch of self-help books, and at the end suggested something like "How to cure addiction to self-help books."
05:03:08 <sut-heb> no way
05:03:31 <zzo38> oerjan: Thank you for telling me that
05:04:46 <elliott> sut-heb: hemisphere implies half
05:04:50 <elliott> there are exactly two, never three.
05:06:05 <sut-heb> according to todays material science yess
05:06:18 <oerjan> so what's greek for one third...
05:06:35 <sut-heb> dont know
05:06:40 <elliott> sut-heb: no, that is simply the definition of hemisphere.
05:06:44 <sut-heb> and don't care to impress
05:06:46 <elliott> if you have three, you are talking about something else.
05:07:38 <sut-heb> not its there atrophied from early age
05:07:39 <oerjan> zzo38: i suspect sut-heb is referring to leibnitz's monads, which are a term from philosophy not mathematics
05:07:53 <sut-heb> due to hormone production
05:08:03 <oerjan> *leibniz's
05:08:32 <elliott> sut-heb: you are not saying anything that has meaning.
05:08:35 -!- sut-heb has left.
05:08:38 <oerjan> even if leibniz also did math
05:08:39 <elliott> there we go
05:08:46 <elliott> (if oerjan yells at me i'll bite his head off)
05:09:45 <oerjan> i really cannot say you were particularly rough there. pedantic yes, but not insulting...
05:09:54 <itidus20> elliott: i must say that it is from such things i fled yahoo
05:10:08 <elliott> oerjan: i was very careful :)
05:10:20 <elliott> but c'mon, three hemispheres is possible if you ignore current material sciences? wat.
05:10:31 <itidus20> ok guys i will give my interpretation
05:10:36 <monqy> ooh
05:10:51 <oerjan> elliott: he seems not to understand a priori concepts
05:11:01 <oerjan> aka definitions
05:11:09 <elliott> oerjan: isn't that basically what occultism is based on?
05:11:11 <itidus20> he wanted to say things which are designed to provoke reactions and confusions rather than to express anything
05:11:21 <elliott> "let's redefine things: now we're less constrained."
05:11:25 <itidus20> but that is perhaps being a bit harsh
05:11:35 <itidus20> i am biased
05:13:52 <zzo38> Is there any rules for how the "fail" command for Haskell monads is supposed to be?
05:14:21 <oerjan> elliott: there are times when redefining things is the right thing to do, mind you. if the original definitions are not what you need.
05:15:05 <elliott> oerjan: you could just make up a new name.
05:15:13 <elliott> zzo38: no. we don't talk about fail. it shouldn't be in Monad
05:15:35 <elliott> (there's fairly universal agreement on this in the community)
05:16:01 <oerjan> zzo38: it mixes part of the meaning of mzero with giving pattern matching errors, so it will vary from monad to monad what you want.
05:17:16 <oerjan> if your monad has room for representing error messages, you generally want to preserve those in fail, otherwise you'd use a suitable zero element.
05:17:26 <elliott> (often _|_)
05:17:30 <elliott> (i.e. fail = error)
05:17:33 <elliott> erm
05:17:36 <elliott> (i.e. fail = return . error)
05:17:39 <oerjan> mzero >>= f = mzero is a commonly wanted rule, i think
05:17:51 <oerjan> but not always respected
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05:18:31 <oerjan> and you could use that for fail too
05:18:36 <elliott> hey oerjan shouhld i a slep... also monqy can opinions.........
05:18:51 <oerjan> slep gud
05:18:57 <elliott> hmmmmmmmmm
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05:19:00 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
05:19:03 <elliott> but if i'm coding
05:19:04 <elliott> what then?
05:19:14 <elliott> finally a question oerjan cannot answer.
05:19:16 <zzo38> oerjan: I suppose that rule makes some sense
05:20:14 <oerjan> <elliott> (i.e. fail = return . error) <-- the default has no return
05:20:23 <elliott> oerjan: hm rihgt
05:20:26 <elliott> becaue that breaks the rul
05:20:26 <elliott> ok
05:20:42 <quintopia> i agree with sleeping
05:20:47 <quintopia> you aren't typing well
05:20:53 <quintopia> surely your code must be suffering
05:20:54 <elliott> on prupose......
05:20:58 <oerjan> elliott: does your continued coding make the program more or less correct at this point? if the latter, slep.
05:21:15 <itidus20> i suppose i provoked him to that subject anyway talking about "asking buddhists about nirvana"
05:21:18 <elliott> oerjan: wait, you have a methodology that makes changes improve a program's correctness on average?
05:21:22 <elliott> oerjan: that's a fucking breakthrough
05:21:45 <oerjan> elliott: ok then, what about "more or less likely to compile" then
05:22:28 <elliott> oerjan: it's haskell, what's the difference?
05:22:29 <monqy> did someone say my name im bad at slep poinions hlep
05:23:02 <elliott> ...
05:23:02 <elliott> help
05:23:03 <elliott> help
05:23:03 <elliott> help
05:23:04 <elliott> help
05:23:04 <elliott> help
05:23:05 <elliott> hepl
05:23:06 <oerjan> hlep hte slep
05:23:06 <elliott> hlep
05:23:08 <elliott> help
05:23:10 <elliott> help
05:23:12 <elliott> help
05:23:15 <elliott> help
05:23:17 <quintopia> /kick elliott
05:23:29 <elliott> quintopia: help
05:23:42 <quintopia> i tried but i have no @-hat
05:23:48 <elliott> oerjan: help
05:24:13 <elliott> ...
05:24:14 <elliott> oerjan: help
05:24:53 <oerjan> is there a way in irssi to send a message to someone without opening a new window even if it's otherwise the default? it's somewhat annoying to get a new window to chanserv just for op'ing myself
05:25:01 <elliott> /msg foo bar?? does that not work
05:25:07 <elliott> also chanserv can kick for you
05:25:08 <elliott> i think
05:25:23 <oerjan> elliott: the point here is "without opening a new window"
05:25:32 <elliott> /msg doesnt oepn window isn xchat
05:26:05 <oerjan> um the point is i _do_ like to have it as default when talking to _persons_
05:26:16 <oerjan> it's just for the one use with chanserv
05:26:28 <elliott> oerjan: /raw PRIVMSG ...
05:26:35 <oerjan> hum...
05:28:19 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
05:28:24 <oerjan> ah
05:28:46 <elliott> hepl
05:28:48 <elliott> monqy: help
05:28:54 <elliott> monqy: help!!!!!!!!!!!
05:28:55 <elliott> help
05:28:55 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving").
05:29:00 -!- elliott has joined.
05:29:01 <elliott> help
05:29:10 <monqy> help
05:29:13 <elliott> help
05:29:21 <elliott> monqy: help
05:29:43 <monqy> oerjan: for doing the thing without opening query window, I think it's /^msg ???
05:29:51 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b *!*elliott@unaffiliated/elliott.
05:29:52 -!- oerjan has kicked elliott elliott.
05:29:55 <monqy> oerjan: at least that's what I use for doing *serv stuff
05:30:01 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
05:30:37 <oerjan> monqy: did you see anything?
05:30:39 <monqy> yes
05:30:48 <oerjan> ok then
05:30:50 <monqy> "testing that" or some such; I closed the query window
05:30:59 <oerjan> yep
05:32:31 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
05:34:39 <pikhq> Aren't opioids supposed to be somewhat dramatic analgesics with a sedative effect?
05:34:54 <pikhq> This seems quite in contrast to my current experience.
05:35:20 <oerjan> you shouldn't talk about your heroin addiction on channel, pikhq
05:36:01 <pikhq> oerjan: Actually, I recently had my wisdom teeth extracted and was prescribed vicodine (which is a mixture of hydrocodone & paracetamol).
05:36:31 <oerjan> ah.
05:36:52 <pikhq> Erm, I think it's vicodin.
05:37:26 <pikhq> Why they put the paracetamol in there is beyond me.
05:37:51 <pikhq> Only real effect of that is to make overdosing toxic.
05:38:31 <pikhq> Oh, right, War on Drugs. That's considered desirable.
05:38:38 <pikhq> Because derp.
05:39:24 -!- evincar has joined.
05:39:59 <evincar> Is there anything like a Programming Language Genome Project out there?
05:40:16 <evincar> If so, does anyone in here think it'd be worthwhile?
05:42:36 <quintopia> to chart the relationships between existing programming languages?
05:43:09 -!- augur has joined.
05:43:36 <evincar> quintopia: Yes, and their characteristics.
05:44:07 <quintopia> i approve. get started immediately.
05:44:18 -!- Nihilist1andy has joined.
05:44:26 <evincar> I may do, but probably not immediately.
05:45:01 <evincar> Besides, it'll need a certain amount of community involvement, and for that it needs momentum, and for *that* it needs a significant time investment on my part.
05:46:00 <quintopia> right
05:46:06 <quintopia> so when you make the investment
05:46:09 <quintopia> we'll think about it
05:46:21 -!- NihilistDandy has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
05:46:57 <evincar> I guess it wouldn't be terribly difficult to at least come up with an initial set of "genes".
05:46:59 <monqy> oerjan: elliott politely requests for you to "umbam" him
05:47:12 <evincar> Just an afternoon of Wikipedia browsing.
05:47:36 <evincar> monqy: wo hoppon?
05:47:45 <monqy> elliott got bamed
05:48:06 <evincar> Because...?
05:48:22 <monqy> requested help
05:48:22 <quintopia> he asked to be
05:48:36 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
05:48:42 <evincar> Huh.
05:48:57 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b *!*elliott@unaffiliated/elliott.
05:48:59 -!- elliott has joined.
05:49:03 <elliott> HI HI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!v
05:49:04 <elliott> HI!
05:49:08 <monqy> hi
05:49:09 <Patashu> what kinds of things would you distinguish programming languages by? functional vs imperative vs declarative? how they approach syntax?
05:49:12 <elliott> HI!!!!!!!!!!!
05:49:17 <elliott> hi
05:49:17 <elliott> HI!
05:49:21 <elliott> HI!!!!!
05:49:29 <Patashu> how good they are for golfing?
05:49:32 <monqy> Patashu: semantics, idomatic style
05:49:38 <elliott> im idiomatic
05:49:41 <elliott> but my mother says im special..........
05:49:42 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
05:49:47 <elliott> even though everyone else says im an idiom.......
05:49:49 <Patashu> e.g. http://golf.shinh.org/lranking.rb
05:49:52 <elliott> I DONT KNOW WHO TO BELIEVE......>>>???????
05:49:56 <elliott> sorry whom
05:50:01 <monqy> Patashu: golfability wouldn't be any good
05:50:04 <monqy> Patashu: as a metric
05:50:12 <quintopia> isnt there a fourth type? like besides functional vs imperative vs declarative
05:50:16 <quintopia> i forget the spectrum
05:50:16 <evincar> Patashu: I think I would ignore that some genes are apparently mutually exclusive, in favour of simply stating "this language has elements of this gene".
05:50:17 <elliott> quintopia: banana
05:50:28 <monqy> isn't declarative an umbellra term
05:50:32 <oerjan> <elliott> HI!!!!!!!!!!! <-- elliott is the Winslow?
05:50:42 <elliott> windows is slOW????????
05:50:56 <evincar> So not "versus", but yes, functional, imperative, concatenative, block-structured, etc.
05:51:03 <elliott> oerjan: ...help
05:51:40 <Patashu> actor oriented is another
05:51:48 <Patashu> like stackless python
05:52:46 <oerjan> business oriented
05:52:47 <evincar> There are loads. Point is, you have some genes, a gene has a name and a description, and a language is tagged with any number of genes.
05:53:00 <evincar> Users can propose new genes, which are approved by mods.
05:53:07 <monqy> hi
05:53:08 <elliott> i ont were geans they eare not comfortable.............
05:53:20 <monqy> I don't either
05:53:44 <monqy> evincar: what
05:53:55 <Patashu> You should make it like danbooru.donmai.us
05:53:58 <evincar> Each language would probably have a list of "related" or "ancestor" languages as well.
05:54:04 <Patashu> An image uploaded per language and you add tags to it
05:54:07 <oerjan> ils ont les gents
05:54:07 <elliott> im a sdojif
05:54:24 <oerjan> clearly elliott is failing at french
05:55:30 <evincar> Patashu: Uh, minus the images, yes.
05:55:37 <evincar> Am I really making an imageboard without images?
05:55:41 <evincar> Is that what programmers like?
05:55:42 <evincar> :(
05:55:49 <elliott> death.com: a scarey site
05:55:56 <elliott> wow ive never been to death.com what is it -- oh its parked
05:56:01 <elliott> "rest in peace" thanks death.com
05:56:05 <elliott> http://death.com/blank.gif <-- picture of death
05:56:09 <Patashu> Why is it that visual studio 2010 crashes other programs -even while it's not running-
05:56:11 <elliott> zoh thats not it...
05:56:41 <elliott> http://death.com/sitetypes/site-images/death_BIG.jpg
05:56:41 <elliott> death
05:59:50 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Me_at_the_zoo
05:59:51 <Sgeo> Ruby:
05:59:51 <elliott> me at the zoo
05:59:52 <Sgeo> nil is a normal object
05:59:52 <Sgeo> You can never get a null pointer error!
05:59:55 <Sgeo> Fuck you
05:59:58 <elliott> me at the zoo
06:00:01 <Sgeo> Just... fuck you for saying that
06:00:14 <elliott> Sgeo: enjoy over hostility
06:00:15 <Sgeo> Mr... Weirich
06:00:25 <elliott> ill go tell weirich you said fuck you
06:00:54 <evincar> Run and tell that.
06:01:06 <Sgeo> http://onestepback.org/articles/10things/9everythingisanobject4.html
06:01:21 <quintopia> Sgeo: what. you can do nil.function for any function without problems?
06:01:22 <elliott> nobody cares
06:01:30 <elliott> quintopia: can in objc
06:01:49 <quintopia> really? huh
06:01:54 <Sgeo> It's just... pointlessly gloating. Getting rid of "Null Pointer errors" in such a way does not eliminate problem that null caues
06:01:57 <Sgeo> causes
06:02:02 <elliott> quintopia: just returns nil
06:02:04 <elliott> Sgeo: nobody cares
06:02:26 <elliott> also that's ancient Copyright 2005, 2006 by Jim Weirich (All Rights Reserved)
06:02:30 <elliott> the language has had a major revision since then
06:03:44 <evincar> Dude. 16th-century word for tattletale: pickthank.
06:03:49 <evincar> Let's bring that shit back.
06:04:22 <monqy> I dunno man
06:04:26 <evincar> (I'm American. I am allowed my occasional "dude" and "ain't".)
06:04:27 <monqy> sounds dangerous
06:04:29 <quintopia> in the 50s they called it singing
06:04:52 <elliott> WHAT IFE,
06:04:54 <elliott> I WENTE TO BEDE,
06:04:58 <evincar> They did a lot of things singing in the 50s, or so I'm told.
06:05:06 <elliott> -----__>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
06:05:12 <quintopia> elliott: was it venerable?
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06:11:01 <evincar> So I realised with that language I was working on that I want concatenative semantics but I was trying to do everything applicatively.
06:11:25 <evincar> It didn't quite break down (because I introduced composition placeholders) but it did get internally messier than I wanted.
06:11:44 <evincar> So I'm making a concatenative language instead.
06:15:12 <oerjan> <elliott> tswett: Serialising (->) is a bit more difficult, but I think you could do it with the GHC API (if you run the code with the functions through the GHC API).
06:15:28 <oerjan> i think that was part of the cloud haskell project
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06:55:20 <CakeProphet> heyo
06:57:13 <pikhq> Recovery from surgery seems to make me really hungry. I've been eating like a friggin' hobbit.
06:58:10 <evincar> pikhq: Breakfast, second breakfast, elevensies, lunch, afternoon tea, dinner, supper, dessert...am I missing anything?
06:58:14 <evincar> Oh, midnight snack.
06:58:17 <evincar> And a pint round the pub.
06:58:21 <evincar> (Yes it does come in pints.)
06:58:44 <pikhq> I've been omitting the pint, because alcohol + paracetamol = dead.
06:58:51 <evincar> Good call.
06:59:53 <evincar> For those of a LOTR bent in here, anyone else heard "The Lord of the Books of the Fifty-Five Arse-Hymens of Stone"?
06:59:55 <CakeProphet> ..so I made a COMPLETELY REASONABLE proof of concept for my client.
07:00:10 <evincar> CakeProphet: Your emphasis makes me suspicious.
07:00:41 <itidus20> i have lotr and the hobbit on my shelf but not read
07:00:46 <CakeProphet> and he didn't want it, because it has to fetch the image twice in order to display a website and also display an image from the website in a seperate window.
07:00:47 <itidus20> i did make some headway into the hobbit though
07:01:05 <CakeProphet> >_> and I have no idea how I can not fetch it twice while doing that, with these really terrible webkit bindings.
07:01:14 <CakeProphet> I have no access to the image data, I have to fetch it twice.
07:01:31 <pikhq> itidus20: TBH, LotR is not a great book.
07:01:35 <evincar> itidus20: I couldn't get through LOTR proper, but found The Hobbit enjoyable.
07:01:44 <coppro> what pikhq said
07:01:47 <coppro> the writing sucks
07:01:48 <pikhq> The setting's brilliant, the story's decent, I suppose, the writing is *utterly terrible*.
07:01:56 <pikhq> The Hobbit is genuinely good, though.
07:01:57 <coppro> HEY LOOK A LEAF
07:02:07 <coppro> LET ME SING A SONG ABOUT THAT LEAF
07:02:09 <itidus20> heh
07:02:25 <coppro> ANYONE ELSE KNOW THE TUNE?
07:02:28 <coppro> ITS OK
07:02:45 <fizzie> IF you can't get through LOTR proper, there's always http://flyingmoose.org/tolksarc/book/
07:03:04 <coppro> or the movies
07:03:12 <evincar> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nJ4Voyrk9U
07:03:25 <CakeProphet> also, I'm pretty sure webkit uses a cache... so fetching an image twice = not a big deal
07:03:29 <itidus20> i have the movies on my pc
07:03:29 <evincar> (LotBot55AHoS)
07:03:43 <itidus20> we steals them and pirates them
07:03:56 <itidus20> oops... i was just acting in character
07:04:18 <fizzie> CakeProphet: Well, there's your problem: you made a reasonable proof-of-concept for an unreasonable client. You should have made an unreasonable one, to avoid polarity conflicts.
07:04:49 <itidus20> i saw precious at the cinema though
07:04:59 <itidus20> or did i? i forgets
07:17:19 <CakeProphet> fizzie: perhaps
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07:36:26 <Sgeo> Well, this was the first Station V3 that actually made me somewhat kindof smile in a while
07:36:31 <Sgeo> http://www.stationv3.com/d/20110818.html
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08:13:59 <Vorpal> I loaded a heavy modern game under wine and under real windows 7. From the same physical disk. The wine loading time was about 1/10th of the windows one. Same graphical settings too and everything. Huh?
08:14:15 <Vorpal> doesn't make any sense, unless windows really sucks at something
08:14:28 <Vorpal> neither was cached, both after clean reboot
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08:19:05 <Patashu> maybe it does something the first time it ever runs?
08:19:16 <lifthrasiir> Vorpal, does the game run flawlessly?
08:32:50 <itidus20> no but it runs the game without flaw
08:33:00 <itidus20> zing!
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08:33:54 <Taneb> Hello
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09:34:13 <oklopol> don't tell FireFly i said this but i'm gonna have a beer with him someday
09:34:41 <oklopol> suddenly, huge truck outside starts playing jingle bells
09:35:37 <oklopol> beepbeepbeep, beepbeepbeep, beepbeepbeeeeeepbebeeep. actually it was just the first two repeated but i'm sure that's the interpretation the engineer was going for.
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10:15:37 <Taneb> I've just had a thought.
10:15:49 <Taneb> There're no geordie programming languages
10:16:19 <Taneb> I may make one called YI-pet
10:22:48 <Taneb> a is a buk, liek
10:22:55 <Taneb> b is a bi, liek
10:23:49 <Taneb> b writes in a "A'reet, world", liek
10:25:01 <Taneb> a hoys mesel aall awer toon
10:25:09 <Taneb> leg it!
10:25:27 <Taneb> Hello world in YI-pet
10:30:16 <monqy> any interesting semantics or even syntax, or is it all just wacky flavour?
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13:21:33 <Taneb> If we define the T-Combinatory expressions as a set of all Combinatory expressions C such that Cab reduces to either a or b
13:21:43 <Taneb> We don't really get anywhere, do we?
13:22:45 <Taneb> K is in this set, as is KI, and SK
13:26:07 <Taneb> But I and S are not
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15:08:00 <Vorpal> <lifthrasiir> Vorpal, does the game run flawlessly? <-- under wine? Not quite, some graphical glitches due to a miss-compiled translation from directx shaders to opengl shaders. Apart from that, yes as far as I can tell.
15:08:46 <Vorpal> lifthrasiir, still that bug would not affect the loading time of the game
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15:31:53 <oerjan> Taneb> K is in this set, as is KI, and SK
15:32:13 <oerjan> KI and SK are really the same thing in pure lambda calculus
15:33:03 <oerjan> also it's impolite not to be here all the time. er wait...
15:34:38 <oerjan> probably \x y -> x and \x y -> y are the only normalized LC expressions with that property.
15:35:46 <oerjan> more formally, i think they are the only normalized expressions which can be given the System F type forall t. t -> t -> t
15:36:39 <oerjan> because in System F, that type is used to _define_ booleans.
15:38:04 <oerjan> ...i suppose it's even more trivial than that. If Cab reduces to a, then C is eta-equivalent to \x y -> x.
15:38:22 <oerjan> and similar for b.
15:39:16 <oerjan> however the System F theory may also be relevant, since it extends to a theory for more general data types
15:39:39 <Gregor> Vorpal: Is it possible that Windows is just entirely terrible? :)
15:42:36 <oerjan> interesting comments by gowers in godel's lost letter today, it's not every day you get to see a fields medal winner deign to discuss a crank's proof...
15:43:09 <Phantom_Hoover> <oerjan> probably \x y -> x and \x y -> y are the only normalized LC expressions with that property.
15:43:11 <Phantom_Hoover> What property?
15:43:29 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: that Cab is either a or b
15:43:45 <oerjan> i didn't quote all of Taneb's remarks
15:43:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Isn't that obvious?
15:44:40 <oerjan> yeah i just didn't think of eta reduction first
15:45:58 <oerjan> also he spoke about SKI combinators. i'm not quite sure of the equivalent concept there, after all KI and SK are eta equivalent but i don't think you usually include that rule as part of SKI calculus
15:48:30 <oerjan> S(KI)x is also equivalent to x for any x
15:49:28 <oerjan> and S(Kx)I
16:08:41 <Vorpal> <Gregor> Vorpal: Is it possible that Windows is just entirely terrible? :) <-- that is my working hypothesis :P
16:08:54 * Gregor nods sagely.
16:09:04 <Vorpal> Gregor, btw windows hardware support compared to linux. Compare a clean install of both
16:09:13 <Vorpal> say, clean ubuntu and clean windows 7
16:09:27 <Gregor> On a clean install, naturally Ubuntu is going to win.
16:09:33 <Vorpal> only thing linux will fail at is graphics on my system. Need catalyst.
16:09:53 <Vorpal> windows 7 didn't even support my intel gbit ethernet card
16:10:02 <Vorpal> Gregor, indeed, that is my point
16:11:35 <Vorpal> Gregor, win7 didn't do network, the eSATA controller, one of the internal SATA controllers (my desktop has two, no idea why), the on-board intel HDA sound, graphics (beyond basic, "can't even read EDID from monitor"-crap), or my sb live 5.1 card.
16:11:43 <Vorpal> the last one doesn't have win7 drivers even
16:12:02 <Vorpal> so I'm stuck at the on-board
16:12:04 <Gregor> Not getting SATA is ... pretty bad.
16:13:24 <Vorpal> Gregor, lucky I have two controllers then
16:14:02 <Vorpal> it managed the intel chipset SATA controller, though the cd that came with the mobo still has drivers for that (why?). Not the Marvell one though
16:14:41 <Gregor> Why -> in case you install Windows 8 :P
16:15:00 <Vorpal> Gregor, yeah but since that one *did
16:15:05 <Vorpal> did* work out of box
16:15:06 <Vorpal> why
16:15:14 <fizzie> It won't work out of the box in 8 any more, probably.
16:15:17 <Gregor> Why -> in case you install Windows 8 :P (HERE'S THE JOKE: which will not have support for it)
16:15:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, XD
16:15:41 <Gregor> Although I suppose installing the drivers from the driver CD which is presumably in a CD drive attached to SATA would be a trick.
16:15:54 <Vorpal> Gregor, won't have support for Intel's P67-or-whatever SATA chipset that has AHCI mode?
16:15:54 <Vorpal> what
16:16:10 * Gregor bashes his head into a wall
16:16:19 <Vorpal> oh right, now I get it
16:16:22 <Gregor> Why is it funny when fizzie explains the joke, but unfunny when I explain the joke :P
16:16:32 <fizzie> Gregor: I'm just better that way, obvs.
16:16:36 <Gregor> *sobblecopter*
16:16:44 <Vorpal> Gregor, I didn't get that you repeated the same joke
16:16:48 <Vorpal> that is what confused me
16:17:12 <Gregor> Angel Mouth ate my Jedi Jello.
16:17:38 <fizzie> As for "why two", probably the Marvell one does some sort of software/"firmware"-RAID, that seems to be a popular setup. (Though Intel that "Matrix Storage" whatever also.)
16:17:50 <Vorpal> hm
16:18:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh god, computer talk.
16:18:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, perhaps. Anyway I have a shitload of sata port. 8 or so I think
16:18:36 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Did you install a speech synthesizer?!
16:18:50 <Vorpal> augh
16:19:02 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, I seem to have espeak, so yes.
16:19:15 <Phantom_Hoover> `espeak yes
16:19:17 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: espeak: not found
16:19:41 <fizzie> It would have been the bestest thing since sliced bread if that had somehow caused a box in some room go all "YES".
16:19:44 <Gregor> `echo Yeah, like that would have done anything under UMLBox ever :P
16:19:46 <HackEgo> Yeah, like that would have done anything under UMLBox ever :P
16:20:01 <fizzie> The integrated speaker of my SparcStation 5 scared me once.
16:20:03 <Gregor> UMLBox: It is superior to youuuuuuu!
16:20:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, honestly, I'm insulted that you thought I expected it to work.
16:20:32 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm not Lymia, after all.
16:20:47 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: I'm insulted that you're insulted by your calling of my calling of your bluff!
16:21:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, I'm insulted by the fact that I think you got that in the wrong order.
16:21:22 <Gregor> I think I did too :P
16:21:27 <Gregor> But it lost coherency mid-typing.
16:23:52 <Gregor> I need to implement UMLBox's socket multiplexer, but I'm sooooooooo lazy :(
16:23:53 <Vorpal> I have to say that this game looks amazing. Gameplay is amazing too. So is the story. And the sidequests. In fact the only thing not amazing is a group of people going through a door. They go one at a time, closing the door between each....
16:24:08 <Vorpal> best RPG since NWN1
16:24:34 <fizzie> "This game" being?
16:25:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, witcher 2
16:25:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, as seen on the yogscast. That is what made me interested in it.
16:25:50 <fizzie> Witcher 2: the witchest.
16:25:56 <fizzie> (A joke that's been made too many times.)
16:26:07 <Vorpal> first time I heard it :P
16:28:58 <Gregor> It has Darrin (old Darrin of course), Samantha, Endora, Aunt Agatha, even Uncle Arthur all as playable characters!
16:29:00 <Gregor> BEST GAME EVER
16:30:26 <Vorpal> Gregor, who?
16:30:44 <Gregor> Vorpal: Why you gotta fail? >: (
16:31:05 <Vorpal> Gregor, did I? I only fail at popular culture references really
16:31:15 <Gregor> That's what it is :P
16:31:25 <Vorpal> Gregor, guessed as much
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16:36:21 <oerjan> aus der reihe: derrik
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17:09:32 <Sgeo> Hmm, there's a new Newspeak release
17:15:21 <quintopia> Gregor: i want to play as tabitha
17:15:53 <Gregor> quintopia: I couldn't remember her name X-D
17:17:17 <quintopia> bonus points if you can whistle the theme song right now without accidentally whistling the i dream of jeannie theme
17:17:41 <Gregor> ARGH I was having that problem too X-D
17:17:52 <Gregor> *shit* no that's I Dream of Jeannie >_<
17:18:22 <Sgeo> What game s this?
17:18:23 <Gregor> The worst thing is I know it has a distinctive and melodic theme song, so I should be able to remember it.
17:18:38 <Gregor> Sgeo: Witcher 2: The Witchest.
17:21:37 <quintopia> i can remember the nose twitch sound effect clearly, but only bits and themes of the song
17:22:26 <Gregor> I can remember all their voices, most of their names, and bits of the opening /sequence/, but for some reason the actual melody eludes me >_>
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17:23:18 <Gregor> Wow, my attempt to remember it just dredged up the Star Trek (original series) theme >_<
17:23:23 <Gregor> FAIL, BRAIN. FAIL.
17:24:06 <olsner> what? sounds like a good thing to remember
17:24:42 <Gregor> olsner: Yes, but it is NOT the theme to series-we're-trying-not-to-name-so-that-we-can-associate-it-with-Witcher-2-instead.
17:25:25 <olsner> it's probably a sign that the original thing you were looking for is not that interesting
17:25:28 * quintopia caves and youtubes it
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17:25:45 <Gregor> It's not the most memorable theme song out there, no *shrugs*
17:26:06 <Gregor> quintopia: I REFUSE TO GIVE IN
17:26:09 <Phantom_Hoover> <quintopia> bonus points if you can whistle the theme song right now without accidentally whistling the i dream of jeannie theme
17:26:11 <Gregor> ALSO I CAN'T EASILY YOUTUBE HERE
17:26:33 <Phantom_Hoover> I have the advantage that I can just listen to the Bewitched theme and the fact that I don't know the I Dream of Jeannie theme will defend me.
17:27:00 <Gregor> s/??witch??/Witcher 2/
17:27:07 <Gregor> Erm, wrong kind of pattern >_>
17:27:12 <Gregor> s/..witch../Witcher 2/
17:27:27 <quintopia> Gregor: on youtube, the siddebar contains the munsters theme. i never have trouble remembering that one
17:27:41 <quintopia> or the alfred hitchcock presents theme for that matter
17:28:58 <Gregor> quintopia: At this point my brain has produced some hideous chimera of Star Trek and I Dream of Jeannie.
17:29:25 <quintopia> i just realized that modern children would call tabitha a mudblood
17:29:33 <Gregor> "You better get back in your bottle or Bones'll find out about you and then we're all in trouble!"
17:31:09 <zzo38> Could I invent a new monad to do some of the stuff which I described in the Dangelo list?
17:31:31 <quintopia> why dont you try it and tell us?
17:32:02 <zzo38> OK, I can try. I have some ideas. But I don't know everything about it and might need some help with it a bit later too
17:34:51 <zzo38> I read about in Haskell a monad is also used as a functor, and Wikipedia says a functor in category theory is from one category to another. Which categories are these in the case of monads?
17:36:09 <zzo38> I think a monad also forms a category, it says it does with (>=>)
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18:01:59 <Vorpal> no link to clog in topic? just codu?
18:04:21 <Vorpal> 17:18:38: <Gregor> Sgeo: Witcher 2: The Witchest. <-- it is actually The Witcher 2: Assassins of Kings.
18:04:58 <Vorpal> 17:22:26: <Gregor> I can remember all their voices, most of their names, and bits of the opening /sequence/, but for some reason the actual melody eludes me >_> <-- in which game? Witcher 2?
18:05:30 <Vorpal> I'm not sure it has a theme song as such. The main menu theme is the only one that I really noticed more than in one location.
18:05:36 <quintopia> witcher 2: the witchest, yes
18:06:28 <Vorpal> Gregor, you played it?
18:08:20 <Vorpal> quintopia, anyway why "the witchest". I don't get the joke unless it is a simple bad pun
18:08:48 <quintopia> we dont blame you for not getting things. no one is perfect.
18:09:07 <Vorpal> har
18:09:50 <fizzie> One from the video game name generator: "Pro Hobo Reloaded". You'd all play that, right?
18:10:13 <quintopia> YES
18:10:54 * quintopia pictures a hobo lying on the ground, and skater punk standing on top, both sliding down a steep hill
18:13:59 <Vorpal> anyway: play witcher 2 if you love good RPGs. Best one since nwn1 IMO.
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18:15:02 <cheater> Vorpal, in that case the witcher movie is a must-see for you
18:15:31 <cheater> witcher is a polish book..
18:15:37 <cheater> and the movie was a polish superproduction.
18:15:39 <Vorpal> cheater, I generally don't like movies. I might read the books the games are based on though
18:15:56 <Gregor> C struct initializers with names are a C99 thing, right?
18:16:07 <Vorpal> but movies made from book tend to be flat somehow.
18:16:14 <Vorpal> Gregor, yes
18:16:25 <Vorpal> Gregor, this is useful for unions especially
18:16:26 <cheater> Vorpal, it's a must-see.
18:16:31 <cheater> of the best kind
18:16:32 <Vorpal> cheater, mhm
18:16:52 <cheater> because it's also the kind of must-see that will make you go "must unsee!!"
18:17:11 <Gregor> Vorpal: It's also useful for understanding wtf struct you just wrote :P
18:17:21 <Vorpal> Gregor, oh yeah true
18:17:27 <Vorpal> Gregor, so go ahead, use C99
18:18:21 <Gregor> NO
18:18:23 <Gregor> NEVAR
18:19:08 <cheater> Vorpal, in polish it's "wiedzmin"
18:19:25 <Vorpal> cheater, I see
18:19:27 <Vorpal> Gregor, why
18:20:06 <Gregor> Vorpal: I live by the code of ansi pedantic.
18:20:19 <Vorpal> Gregor, didn't ANSI ratify C99 too?
18:20:23 <Vorpal> I think they did
18:20:59 <Gregor> By "ansi" I mean GCC option "-ansi"
18:21:10 <Gregor> Hence why I didn't capitalize it.
18:21:54 <cheater> vorpal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izQPp9UlG1A
18:25:18 <Vorpal> cheater, I don't understand polish. Why should I watch it
18:27:34 <cheater> wait for the "fight scene"
18:27:40 <cheater> more "fight scenes" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-cGAsMu9FY
18:27:45 <cheater> this one's mostly "fighting"
18:27:51 <cheater> aka drunken bums bumping into eachother.
18:28:00 <Vorpal> cheater, I'm not interested in that. I like good storylines :P
18:28:16 <cheater> the movie is epically bad
18:28:18 <cheater> epicly even
18:28:29 <Vorpal> cheater, you said it was good?
18:28:42 <cheater> i said it was a must see.
18:28:52 <Vorpal> cheater, I interpret that as "good"
18:29:06 <Vorpal> I think epically bad movies are not "must see"
18:29:12 <Vorpal> that would be a contradiction
18:29:13 <cheater> sorry. i guess i also include "pink flamingos" in must-see.
18:29:23 <Vorpal> never heard of that
18:29:33 <cheater> another epicly bad movei
18:29:40 <cheater> movie.
18:30:02 <Vorpal> cheater, I don't think bad movies can ever be "must see"
18:30:14 <cheater> what about zardoz
18:30:20 <Vorpal> never heard of it
18:30:27 <cheater> what about hackers
18:30:52 <Vorpal> sounds vaguely familiar. Never seen it, and don't remember anything about it.
18:30:55 <Vorpal> other than the title
18:30:58 <cheater> HACK THE PLANET!
18:31:10 <Vorpal> sounds bad. And not like a must-see at all
18:31:33 <cheater> you're just not appreciative of kitsch.
18:31:33 <Vorpal> I hate movies that botch up technical details. They aren't worth seeing.
18:31:59 <Vorpal> cheater, who is?
18:32:04 <cheater> you.
18:32:14 <cheater> what about that TOS episode with kirk's worst fight scene ever
18:32:17 <cheater> have you seen that one
18:32:37 <fizzie> I think a Zardoz image was linked here once.
18:32:50 <cheater> must've been more than once, it's an amazing movie.
18:32:57 <Vorpal> cheater, no I meant that as in "who could possibly like kitsch"
18:33:06 <Vorpal> cheater, I wasn't asking who you referred to
18:33:15 <cheater> Vorpal, anyone who appreciates it.
18:33:38 <Vorpal> cheater, I can't understand how anyone could possibly like it
18:33:38 <cheater> are you saying that is uncommon?
18:33:45 <cheater> it's not
18:33:50 <cheater> it's very common to enjoy kitsch.
18:34:00 <Vorpal> cheater, at least amongst my real life friends I don't know anyone who does.
18:34:06 <cheater> kitsch is co-art
18:34:16 <cheater> liking kitsch is dualistic to liking art
18:34:31 <cheater> aren't you american?
18:34:48 <Vorpal> <cheater> what about that TOS episode with kirk's worst fight scene ever <-- I think most of startrek, save a handful of episodes (mostly TNG) are shit
18:35:02 <olsner> Vorpal: blasphemy
18:35:05 <Vorpal> and I'm not sure what TOS episode you are talking about
18:35:14 <cheater> see
18:35:17 <Vorpal> olsner, come on, it isn't hard sci-fi. It is soft sci-fi
18:35:21 <Vorpal> that is why it sucks
18:35:23 <cheater> yet again you're missing an important pop-culture reference
18:35:24 <cheater> anyways
18:35:27 <cheater> aren't you american?
18:35:31 <Vorpal> that is why starwars sucks too
18:35:34 <Vorpal> cheater, me? no
18:35:41 <cheater> where are you from then
18:35:50 <Vorpal> Sweden, as I told you when you asked before
18:35:52 <cheater> sweden?
18:35:54 <cheater> ok
18:35:59 <cheater> i don't memorize this sort of thing
18:36:01 <cheater> look up odd nerdrum
18:36:08 <Vorpal> hm?
18:36:18 <olsner> Vorpal: you seem to think hard sci-fi is inherently better than soft sci-fi
18:36:29 <cheater> one of the most famous kitsch painters of this day
18:36:39 <olsner> but it's not you see, it's merely "harder"
18:37:05 <Vorpal> olsner, I think I like it more
18:37:10 <Vorpal> I don't say everyone will
18:37:38 <cheater> olsner: i think people who only like hard sci fi are missing the point that soft sci fi makes short cuts in the technical part to enable science fiction in things like humanities, social sciences, etc
18:37:47 <cheater> which are equally important topics to make movies about.
18:37:54 <olsner> indeed
18:37:55 <cheater> such as privacy or identity theft.
18:38:07 <Vorpal> cheater, problem is for *movies* no one makes movies about hard scifi really
18:38:11 <Vorpal> very little of that
18:38:30 <cheater> because movies about technical processes are boring like ass
18:38:31 <Vorpal> mostly you have to turn to books.
18:38:45 <Vorpal> cheater, are they? Why aren't books then as well?
18:38:51 <cheater> if you want that, get a documentary about aluminum production.
18:39:07 <cheater> they aren't?
18:39:21 <cheater> most books are boring, people just don't know.
18:39:38 <Vorpal> hard sci-fi in book form at least isn't boring. Consider Niven's Ringworld and so on
18:39:47 <cheater> because they dont discern
18:40:32 <Vorpal> cheater, btw, speaking of documentaries: I greatly enjoyed Cosmos (by Sagan). Meaning "technical" movies can be made interesting.
18:40:43 <cheater> you just said "all of [x] is Q(x). Consider that Q(x_1) == True."
18:41:01 <Vorpal> cheater, did I? Where?
18:41:30 <cheater> i recently enjoyed The Aristocrats by Sagan, but that's a different kind of documentary, i'd call it a natural documentary movie or something
18:41:34 <cheater> maybe social
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18:42:07 <Taneb> Hello!
18:42:47 <Vorpal> cheater, all I said was that Cosmos was an example of a good science documentary. And that means that good documentaries and movies with a focus on the science can be made.
18:43:16 <Vorpal> cheater, I never claimed ALL such movies would be inherently good. Of course you can make bad movies about anything
18:43:23 <cheater> no you said "hard sci fi books are not boring, consider ringworld and so on"
18:43:28 <cheater> but that's a small subclass.
18:43:38 <cheater> no one said all sci fi books are boring, but there's a trend towards that
18:44:13 <cheater> it is so because the gist of what hard sci fi is concentrating on is opposite to what interesting writing and movie making requires.
18:44:17 <Vorpal> cheater, I don't agree with that trend. But again of course it is possible to make a boring book. For any genre.
18:44:31 <Taneb> I like the Foundation books
18:44:56 <Taneb> But I struggle to get into them
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18:45:10 <Vorpal> Taneb, I should check them out some time. Been on my todo list for a while.
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18:46:18 <Vorpal> cheater, a lot (I'm not saying all) soft sci-fi is more like fantasy with nuts and bolts.
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18:47:01 <Taneb> I would call that Science Fantasy
18:47:38 <Vorpal> Taneb, I'm not sure I like the term science in that.
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18:49:26 <Vorpal> Taneb, but would you say a lot of star trek and the entire star wars fit into that?
18:49:43 <Taneb> Yup
18:50:50 <Taneb> Star Trek is closer to Science fiction proper to Star Wars,by a little
18:51:33 <Taneb> But that's like saying that a gatling gun is more deadly than a revolver
18:51:49 <Vorpal> Taneb, I like that analogy :D
18:52:10 <Taneb> If you get sot in the head,you're still dead
18:52:22 <Vorpal> shot*
18:52:26 <Vorpal> but yeah
18:52:59 <Vorpal> Taneb, I just wish there were more hard sci-fi movies.
18:53:10 <Vorpal> in fact I can't remember a single one off the top of my head
18:53:27 <Vorpal> unless we stray into documentaries, and then we left fiction
18:53:40 <pikhq> Hard sci-fi is antithetical to the studio system.
18:53:53 <Vorpal> pikhq, why is that
18:53:59 <fizzie> Neither can http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_science_fiction#Representative_works name any.
18:54:01 <pikhq> Such a film is inherently high-risk, targetting a small audience.
18:54:15 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm planet of apes maybe. That was quite a good movie
18:54:22 <pikhq> The studio system wants low-risk films that target everyone too fucking retarded to not watch it.
18:54:36 <Taneb> Not very hard science though
18:55:14 <fizzie> Some of the mentioned books have had a movie (or several; there's three adaptations of Solaris) made out of them, but I couldn't guess at their hardness.
18:55:22 <Vorpal> Taneb, planet of apes? no true, but more than star trek I'd say. Most of it takes place after the sci-fi part of course
18:56:15 <Taneb> I just don't like that the apes speak English
18:57:34 <Vorpal> oh yeah there is that.
18:58:18 <Taneb> Imagine a movie based on an esolang
18:58:32 <Taneb> It would suck
19:00:24 <Taneb> Minsky is a K new to the force
19:00:39 <Taneb> Turing is an S with nothing to lose
19:00:51 <Taneb> Together they are...
19:01:14 <Taneb> COMBINATOR COPS
19:03:08 <Taneb> Also what rhymes with Leuctra
19:03:24 <Taneb> ?
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19:03:45 <cheater> dijkstra
19:04:46 <Vorpal> <Taneb> COMBINATOR COPS <-- ouch, just ouch
19:05:10 <CakeProphet> so I wonder if Ubuntu's new interface isn't shit yet.
19:05:40 * CakeProphet is still using "classic" interface, aka GNOME with default Ubuntu theme.
19:06:15 <Vorpal> CakeProphet, I'm still using ubuntu 10.04 LTS on my laptop. Oh and gnome 3 is a disaster. Went xfce on my desktop
19:06:21 <Taneb> I like it, but I like the Thor movie for its plot
19:06:41 <Vorpal> Taneb, I have no clue what that movie actually is about
19:07:34 <Vorpal> I tend to not watch movies. When hearing about a new movie my default is to *not* see it. Someone would have to convince me to see it.
19:08:04 <CakeProphet> same
19:08:20 <Taneb> I like it, and I like the Unity desktop
19:08:41 <Taneb> I'm not the best reccomender
19:09:04 <CakeProphet> new movies = special effects extravaganzas, for the most part.
19:09:23 <Vorpal> CakeProphet, I tended to not watch movies even before that started
19:09:54 <Taneb> Journet to the Centre of the Earth in 3D sucked
19:10:06 <Taneb> Even in 2D
19:10:20 <Taneb> *Journey
19:15:03 <ais523> does anyone watch new movies by default?
19:15:09 <ais523> other than movie critics, whose job is to do so?
19:16:38 <Taneb> Not reaally
19:17:04 <Taneb> Projectionists?
19:18:44 <ais523> is that a real job nowadays? I assumed it was all done digitally
19:19:43 <Taneb> Someone needs to make sure it' focused etc
19:20:15 <ais523> but once it was focused, wouldn't it stay focused?
19:20:20 <ais523> it's not like the projector nor the screen moves
19:21:02 <Taneb> Floors can move subtely
19:21:16 <Taneb> Especially in older buildings
19:21:39 <Taneb> Like many cinemas which were often adapted from theatres
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19:30:57 <ais523> ah, I'm more used to purpose-built cinemas in retail estates
19:31:26 <Taneb> Which still can shift a little
19:31:51 <Taneb> Especially wit a lot of people walking about
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19:59:53 <elliott> 06:15:12: <oerjan> <elliott> tswett: Serialising (->) is a bit more difficult, but I think you could do it with the GHC API (if you run the code with the functions through the GHC API).
19:59:53 <elliott> 06:15:28: <oerjan> i think that was part of the cloud haskell project
20:00:01 <elliott> don't they basically do that symbolically
20:00:41 <elliott> 07:01:05: <CakeProphet> >_> and I have no idea how I can not fetch it twice while doing that, with these really terrible webkit bindings.
20:00:47 <elliott> CakeProphet: Dude, just download it with a regular HTTP API
20:00:55 <elliott> And then save it to a temporary file and include it in the DOM
20:00:59 <Sgeo> http://pastie.org/2393014 I feel like an idiot for asking, but is there any good reason to use the former?
20:01:01 <elliott> Or data: if you can get away with it
20:01:40 <elliott> Sgeo: [nil, :equilateral, :isosceles, :scalene][[a, b, c].uniq.size]
20:01:58 <elliott> Sgeo: and .length not .size
20:02:08 <Sgeo> What's the difference?
20:02:17 <Sgeo> Also, that looks "clever"
20:02:21 <elliott> nothing, .length is just nicer.
20:02:24 <elliott> also, fixnums have .size
20:02:35 <elliott> and because ruby is duck-typed (badly typed), that can easily bite you in the ass.
20:03:39 <Sgeo> I think I'll avoid cleverness for clarity. Although hmm, your way avoids doing three ===
20:04:11 <Sgeo> Unless your way is actually a common Ruby idiom
20:04:24 <elliott> ruby idioms = stupid cleverness
20:04:33 <elliott> im sure my code would be a celebrated refactoring
20:04:50 <elliott> and yes, it's faster, you're web scale now
20:05:40 <Sgeo> I'm going to stick to trying to be clear, I think
20:06:16 <Taneb> I don't know a thing about Ruby
20:06:38 <Taneb> Other than it is used to make Google SketchUp plugins
20:06:47 <elliott> it sucks
20:06:48 <Taneb> And some websites
20:07:15 <Taneb> Oh,all programming languages suck.
20:07:43 <Taneb> In some way or another
20:07:55 <elliott> yeah
20:07:59 <elliott> but ruby sucks more than average
20:08:08 <Taneb> Okay
20:08:10 <Sgeo> What is "average"?
20:11:17 <elliott> 18:09:50: <fizzie> One from the video game name generator: "Pro Hobo Reloaded". You'd all play that, right?
20:11:24 <elliott> fizzie: thanks for Elliottcraft's new name
20:12:28 <ais523> C++0b: []() -> float {return 6;} returns a float; Perl 6: -> x {return x;} takes x as argument
20:12:45 <ais523> that's a pretty annoying reuse of syntax
20:12:57 <CakeProphet> elliott: good idea. But as soon as I suggest it this client brings up entirely new demands he didn't mention before.
20:13:03 <CakeProphet> so fun.
20:13:05 <ais523> as in, Perl 6 uses -> identifier {...} to specify an argument, C++0b uses -> identifier {...} to specify a return type
20:13:25 <Sgeo> Ruby needs an equiv. to COBOL's exit
20:13:28 <Sgeo> (no it doesn't)
20:13:35 <elliott> CakeProphet: Freelance programming is great, eh?
20:13:41 <elliott> So good avoiding all that stuffy academia.
20:13:48 <ais523> what does COBOL's exit do?
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20:14:32 <Sgeo> I may be mistaken, but: nothing. And if it's in a paragraph, it must be the only statement in the paragraph, iirc
20:14:44 <elliott> like Python's pass?
20:14:58 <Sgeo> elliott, well, that's closer to COBOL's continue I think
20:15:06 <Taneb> How is elliottcraft going, btw?
20:15:18 <Sgeo> Hmm, I was mistaken
20:15:21 <Sgeo> "This sentence does not need to be the only sentence in the paragraph."
20:15:25 <elliott> Taneb: still blocked on maintainers waking up
20:15:25 <Sgeo> http://publib.boulder.ibm.com/infocenter/iadthelp/v7r0/index.jsp?topic=/com.ibm.etools.iseries.langref.doc/evfeb4ls124.htm
20:15:28 <elliott> and me writing a patch
20:15:40 <Taneb> Okat
20:15:58 <Sgeo> COBOL continue is basically Python's pass
20:16:07 <Taneb> That wasn't a typo
20:16:09 <elliott> Taneb: probably the first kind of actual release will be basically a standalone multiplayer version of Minecraft classic
20:16:17 <elliott> with no physics but infinite world
20:16:38 <elliott> probably as a binary as I'm a hopeless perfectionist >_>
20:16:45 <elliott> I'm not good at release early, release often :(
20:16:53 <elliott> oh, ais523 /is/ here, I thought I imagined it
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20:17:12 <elliott> Taneb_
20:17:12 <elliott> <elliott> Taneb: probably the first kind of actual release will be basically a standalone multiplayer version of Minecraft classic
20:17:12 <elliott> <elliott> with no physics but infinite world
20:17:12 <elliott> <elliott> probably as a binary as I'm a hopeless perfectionist >_>
20:17:12 <elliott> <elliott> I'm not good at release early, release often :(
20:17:13 <elliott> <elliott> oh, ais523 /is/ here, I thought I imagined it
20:17:25 <ais523> elliott: were you ignoring my comments because you thought I wasn't here?
20:17:34 <Taneb_> Looking forward to it, elliott
20:17:36 <ais523> or just because they weren't relevant?
20:17:53 <Taneb_> And also, when on a kindle, the home button doesn't do what I thought it would
20:17:55 <elliott> ais523: I didn't see anything I had anything intelligent to reply to
20:18:04 <ais523> fair enough
20:18:33 <Taneb_> And how's mcmap going?
20:18:56 <Taneb_> Actually, are there anything like a developer's blog I can read? I like those?
20:18:59 <elliott> Taneb_: hasn't been touched for thirteen days, but ostensibly the next commit will add item and mob tracking
20:19:03 <elliott> all the infrastructure there
20:19:08 <elliott> Taneb_: mcmap developer blog: https://github.com/fis/mcmap/commits/master
20:19:21 <elliott> I'll probably write some kind of Elliottcraft developer blog when it even is a thing
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20:20:39 <elliott> But yeah, I... should probably write that GPipe patch.
20:22:25 <ais523> wait, /my/ project's called elliottcraft
20:22:40 <ais523> (IIRC, because naming a project after yourself is a sign of desperation, but naming it after someone else should be just fine)
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20:23:20 <Taneb> Well, my project is uniquely named.
20:23:30 <Taneb> Unfortunately, it's very ununiquely nonexistent
20:23:35 <elliott> Taneb: But here, if todo lists make you almost as happy as dev blogs: Write that GPipe patch to make it windowing-system agnostic; figure out how to even use SDL (or GLFW-b), GPipe and reactive-banana together; make a really simple random block world you can move the camera around; add some kind of gravity so you can only move around and jump normally;
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20:23:56 <elliott> Taneb: Add a save/load mechanism so that the chunks can be saved on disk; add a method to let the player create and destroy blocks arbitrarily;
20:23:57 <elliott> THEN
20:24:20 <elliott> Taneb: Rip it all out, divide into "client" and "server"; make sure server does various checks so that you can't do tricksy things like teleporting or destroying blocks miles away by injecting packets;
20:24:27 <elliott> Taneb: First preview????
20:24:35 <Taneb> Yay!
20:24:59 <elliott> ais523: Also yes, I have chosen to wilfully maintain the ambiguity until I come up with a better name.
20:25:16 <ais523> fair enough
20:25:26 <ais523> and I'm doing too much simultaneously at the moment anyway
20:25:54 <Taneb> Minecraft is written in Java, FortressCraft in C#, elliottcraft in... Haskell?
20:26:04 <elliott> Haskell, yes.
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20:26:37 <elliott> I'm not sure anyone's actually welded the technologies I'm planning to weld together before, so... it might crash and burn!
20:26:40 <elliott> Or maybe it'll WORK PERFECTLY????
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20:27:40 <Taneb> I may try to make one in...
20:27:42 <Taneb> PYTHON
20:27:49 <Taneb> Because no-one else will
20:28:15 <elliott> Well, Minetest-c55 is in C++.
20:28:25 <elliott> Python is just going to be way too hideously slow, most likely.
20:28:34 <Taneb> Yeah, probably
20:28:55 <Taneb> But frankly, with my coding skills, it was either that or VB.net
20:29:08 <Sgeo> Yay needing to remember geometry to do this
20:29:54 <elliott> I wonder how easy mcmap will be to modify for Elliottcraft.
20:30:06 <elliott> I mean, I plan some sort of selective sending of terrain so that you can't just arbitrarily spy on blocks you can't see.
20:30:26 <elliott> Obviously just rough because otherwise it'd be slow and laggy, but you shouldn't be able to look hundreds of blocks down from where you are underground.
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20:32:31 <elliott> ais523: Out of curiosity, what were you planning to implement Elliottcraft in?
20:32:42 <ais523> I haven't decided yet
20:32:46 <ais523> probably C, though
20:32:46 <Taneb> Note to self: in PHPbb, closing tags come SECOND
20:32:54 <ais523> with SDL/GL
20:32:57 <elliott> Taneb: wat
20:33:07 <elliott> ais523: "have fun with that"
20:33:20 <Taneb> I think "'Aye', yeah that's bold"
20:33:29 <elliott> ais523: I decided ripping out a good part of GPipe's guts was less pain than using the OpenGL API :P
20:33:32 <elliott> From /Haskell/
20:33:35 <Taneb> Rather than "This is going to be bold: 'Aye'"
20:33:48 <ais523> elliott: bear in mind, that in theory I know OpenGL, I took a term-long course on it
20:34:08 <elliott> ais523: That doesn't mean you want to use it :P
20:34:34 <ais523> it's a decent API
20:34:39 <Taneb> So I say "Aye[b]" then go back to the start and write "[/b]"
20:34:41 <ais523> much nicer to use for 3D graphics than Allegro
20:34:50 <elliott> allegro does 3D?
20:34:58 <elliott> just software rendering, I presume
20:35:32 <Sgeo> http://pastie.org/2393158 I feel dirty
20:35:48 <elliott> triangle error
20:36:11 <Taneb> Triangle error, triangle error. Triangle error hates particle error
20:36:15 <elliott> ais523: anyway, it may be nicer than allegro, but anything that involves me constructing a Ptr just to draw something is insane
20:36:26 <Taneb> They have a fight, triangle wins, triangle error, triangle error
20:36:51 <ais523> elliott: you want to set up a whole pipeline, ideally
20:37:09 <ais523> and then you draw very high-level concepts and they get converted into low-level concepts automatically
20:37:21 <elliott> ais523: well, GPipe compiles everything down to shaders
20:37:26 <Vorpal> <Sgeo> http://pastie.org/2393158 I feel dirty <-- what language?
20:37:35 <Sgeo> Ruby
20:37:36 <elliott> ais523: which is nice, because it means I don't have to write in the awful shader language
20:37:50 <elliott> ais523: (writing a "texture pack" in it sounds "fun")
20:37:50 <Vorpal> Sgeo, ouch
20:37:56 <Sgeo> Vorpal, why ouch?
20:38:05 <Sgeo> Is Ruby really _that_ bad?
20:38:13 <ais523> what makes you think its shader language is awful?
20:38:18 <ais523> it's much better designed than DirectX's
20:38:27 <Sgeo> Vorpal, or were you referring to my code?
20:38:33 <ais523> (in fact, OpenGL fell behind because GLSL was overengineered for the time it was released, but it's about right for modern graphics cards)
20:38:33 <Vorpal> Sgeo, I think that indention looks horrible
20:38:51 <Sgeo> Um, that's my fault for being lazy
20:38:55 <Vorpal> Sgeo, if that is typical of ruby: then ouch
20:38:55 <Vorpal> ah
20:39:20 <Vorpal> ais523, heh
20:39:32 <Vorpal> ais523, so what does directx have these days?
20:40:12 <ais523> I'm not too sure
20:40:48 <Vorpal> ais523, how do you to textures in these days of shaders?
20:40:56 <elliott> <ais523> what makes you think its shader language is awful?
20:40:56 <elliott> <ais523> it's much better designed than DirectX's
20:41:00 <elliott> ais523: it's not as nice as Haskell
20:41:05 <elliott> ais523: it's probably not even as nice as C
20:41:14 <Vorpal> ais523, and do you use one shader per object or surface or one single piece of GLSL for the entire program?
20:41:18 <elliott> ais523: considering that a large part of my program would be written in it, especially the procedural textures...
20:41:26 <elliott> using it directly would nullify most of haskell's benefits
20:41:27 <ais523> elliott: it basically is C
20:41:36 <elliott> ais523: yes, but with weird thinsg adde :P
20:42:26 <Sgeo> Note to self: Adding 10 to 1, 2, and 3 does not in fact give 10, 11, 12
20:43:00 <Vorpal> are you sure? ...
20:43:52 <Sgeo> There is no positive integer base >= 2 where 10+1=10
20:44:07 <Sgeo> Unless you remap symbols, I guess
20:44:08 <Vorpal> .... of course not
20:44:53 <Sgeo> Hmm, without remapping symbols, is there a base where 10+1 != 11?
20:45:04 <Sgeo> I mean, clearly not for positive integer base >= 2
20:45:17 <Sgeo> But what about some sort of complex base or something
20:46:03 <Taneb> I think 10+1 = 11 is true across every non-unary base
20:46:45 <Taneb> Unless you get into those weird hyper-complex numbers
20:48:27 <Sgeo> Enumerable#inject is like Haskell foldr?
20:48:53 <Sgeo> @hoogle foldr
20:48:53 <elliott> Sgeo: foldl.
20:48:53 <lambdabot> Prelude foldr :: (a -> b -> b) -> b -> [a] -> b
20:48:53 <lambdabot> Data.ByteString foldr :: (Word8 -> a -> a) -> a -> ByteString -> a
20:48:53 <lambdabot> Data.Foldable foldr :: Foldable t => (a -> b -> b) -> b -> t a -> b
20:48:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, it's not true in base-phi, I suspect.
20:49:01 <elliott> Sgeo: foldl.
20:49:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, in a sense.
20:49:05 <Sgeo> @hoogle foldl
20:49:05 <lambdabot> Prelude foldl :: (a -> b -> a) -> a -> [b] -> a
20:49:05 <lambdabot> Data.ByteString foldl :: (a -> Word8 -> a) -> a -> ByteString -> a
20:49:05 <lambdabot> Data.Foldable foldl :: Foldable t => (a -> b -> a) -> a -> t b -> a
20:49:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Assuming you normalise everything.
20:49:42 <CakeProphet> true for every integer base at least.
21:03:37 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:06:56 <Taneb> Am I still here?
21:07:10 <monqy> no
21:07:16 <Taneb> Oh dear.
21:07:17 -!- copumpkin has joined.
21:08:53 <Taneb> well, I will now...
21:08:55 <Taneb> BRB
21:08:57 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: He's a big quitter he is.).
21:10:33 <CakeProphet> @instances RandomGen
21:10:33 <lambdabot> Couldn't find class `RandomGen'. Try @instances-importing
21:10:43 -!- atrapado has quit (Quit: FIN).
21:13:31 -!- Taneb has joined.
21:13:41 <elliott> @instances-importing
21:13:41 <lambdabot> Plugin `instances' failed with: Prelude.last: empty list
21:13:44 <elliott> @instances-importing a
21:13:44 <lambdabot> Couldn't find class `a'. Try @instances-importing
21:13:47 <elliott> @instances-importing RandomGen
21:13:47 <lambdabot> Couldn't find class `RandomGen'. Try @instances-importing
21:14:08 <Deewiant> @instances Foldable
21:14:08 <lambdabot> Couldn't find class `Foldable'. Try @instances-importing
21:14:09 <Deewiant> @instances-importing Data.Foldable Foldable
21:14:09 <lambdabot> Maybe, []
21:14:17 <CakeProphet> > map (\g -> fst $ randomR (0,1) (mkStdGen g)) [231212123..]
21:14:17 <lambdabot> [1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,...
21:14:20 <CakeProphet> why is this so bad?
21:14:56 <Deewiant> > map (\g -> fst $ randomR (0,1) (mkStdGen g)) [231212123..] :: [Double]
21:14:56 <copumpkin> why is what so bad?
21:14:57 <lambdabot> [0.7326631544233912,0.10464246561858859,0.9766217971864672,0.84860112852151...
21:15:00 <Sgeo> Am I allowed to like Ruby for all the gems?
21:15:08 <monqy> no
21:15:13 <Taneb> My aunt's called Ruby
21:15:24 <elliott> There are more useful RubyGems than there are useful Python packages?
21:15:27 <elliott> Useful Hackage packages?
21:15:32 <elliott> Useful CPAN modules?
21:15:45 <elliott> RubyGems is also a hilariously bad, insecure mess of a package manager.
21:16:23 <Taneb> Aah! When did it become the eighteenth?
21:16:30 <Sgeo> I think of the corresponding languages, Ruby actually might only be worse than Haskell? And I don't want to deal with Haskell
21:16:31 <elliott> Taneb: a long time ago
21:16:47 <elliott> by the way it is my birthday in four days i expect lots of presents from everyone here
21:16:58 <monqy> Sgeo: what
21:17:24 <elliott> Sgeo: What?
21:17:35 <elliott> Sgeo: And what do you mean "don't want to deal with Haskell"?
21:17:41 <CakeProphet> Sgeo: so you admit that Perl is an outstanding language suitable for all purposes and is superior to all of the inferior languages that everyone else uses?
21:17:44 <CakeProphet> excellent.
21:17:46 <CakeProphet> >_>
21:18:03 <Taneb> Even I want to deal with Haskell
21:18:23 <monqy> haskell is pretty okay/alright/decent/good
21:18:28 <monqy> unlike those other languages
21:18:39 <Sgeo> I want something to get me back into writing code, not something that will break my brain a million times
21:18:46 <elliott> Man, I was going to write my program in this magic language that does what I mean when given a description of my problem in plain English... but I didn't want to deal with that, so I wrote it in assembly instead.
21:18:58 <elliott> Sgeo: hurr haskell is hard two types good four types bad
21:19:06 <elliott> nomads are teh HARD CATEGORIAL MATEMATICS,,
21:19:38 <monqy> don't even bother with nomads for now if you need to leanr more haskel beofr eunderstanding them,,
21:19:55 <elliott> HASKEL BRAK YOUR BRAIN WITH MATHEMATICS
21:19:59 <elliott> Sgeo ONLY DO BUSINESS COURSES
21:20:01 <CakeProphet> Sgeo: learn Perl
21:20:03 <Sgeo> monads are easy enough, but is stacking monads etc really all that convenient?
21:20:07 <CakeProphet> you'll be writing code in no time!
21:20:10 <CakeProphet> some of it might even work!
21:20:17 <elliott> Sgeo: lol
21:20:20 <monqy> Sgeo: what
21:20:32 <elliott> i really need to stop like
21:20:38 <elliott> talking
21:20:39 <elliott> and also
21:20:41 <elliott> reading these messages
21:20:44 <elliott> because they're making me hurt
21:21:44 <CakeProphet> I wrote so much Perl for a while that it seemed entirely naturally to prepend variables with funny symbols.
21:21:50 <CakeProphet> *natural
21:22:18 <monqy> :'(
21:22:21 <CakeProphet> I have a bad habit of adverbifying words.
21:22:27 <monqy> hey sgeo: what
21:22:48 <monqy> Sgeo: stacking monads is convenient////////////when it's conveneient
21:23:07 <elliott> monad stakcs are usually a stupid idea anyway
21:23:17 <elliott> if you're in IO then just about any monad on top is redundant
21:23:17 <monqy> usually
21:23:17 <CakeProphet> stacking monad stacks is probably less convenient most of the time.
21:23:28 <elliott> and writing things purely is less stupide.....
21:23:35 <elliott> or using a monad good for one component.................
21:23:57 <monqy> i think my most frequently used monad recently has been the list monad
21:24:00 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:24:04 <Sgeo> When there's something like Haskell Koans, I'll give that a try
21:24:05 <CakeProphet> uh, isn't IO the only unpure monad?
21:24:08 <monqy> it is a good monad
21:24:11 <elliott> Sgeo: you really hurt me
21:24:13 <elliott> and are terrible
21:24:13 <elliott> :(
21:24:15 <monqy> Sgeo: what
21:24:17 <CakeProphet> like, it sounds silly to say that using lists is writing nonpure code.
21:24:28 <elliott> CakeProphet: nobody said lists ar impue???
21:24:29 <elliott> nobody saide,
21:24:34 <Sgeo> elliott, I think these language koans are a cool way to learn
21:24:54 <elliott> Sgeo i just punched my screen
21:24:55 <elliott> it
21:24:56 <elliott> could have smashed
21:24:57 <elliott> and
21:24:59 <elliott> itw ould be your fault
21:25:00 <elliott> :(
21:25:03 <CakeProphet> elliott: you seemed to imply that monads = impure, since "writing things purely" was the alternative to "writing things with monads" (I think)
21:25:06 <monqy> i softly punched my screen
21:25:10 <monqy> so it wouldnt' smnash....
21:25:17 <elliott> CakeProphet: well it's hard to argue that the State monad is beautiful pure code.
21:25:28 <CakeProphet> but it is pure code right?
21:25:28 <elliott> CakeProphet: I can use "denotational" if you'd prefer I roleplay Conal
21:25:39 <elliott> Well, the implementation is irrelevant.
21:25:45 <elliott> Yes, it's pure, but it's not "functional code".
21:26:02 <CakeProphet> I thought purity had to do with side-effects?
21:26:20 <elliott> Yes, but... this is basically an argument of terminology.
21:26:26 <CakeProphet> ...of course.
21:26:30 <CakeProphet> >_>
21:26:36 <elliott> What I'm saying is that the normal "imperative"-ish monads are usually Not The Best Idea.
21:26:41 <monqy> Sgeo: what is this koans thing and why do you want it
21:26:42 <CakeProphet> "this is an argument about the meaning of words"
21:26:51 <Sgeo> http://rubykoans.com/
21:26:58 <monqy> Sgeo: ok?
21:26:59 <elliott> monqy: no dont stop,e
21:27:02 <elliott> stope,
21:27:05 <elliott> STOPE
21:27:08 <CakeProphet> elliott: okay, I agree.
21:27:10 <elliott> (pronunce: "stohpe")
21:27:32 <Sgeo> A thing where basically you fill in the blanks, and run the program to see what's expected in each blank.
21:27:42 <Sgeo> Wow, that's a bad description
21:27:56 <monqy> ok
21:28:13 <CakeProphet> elliott: unless of course that imperative-ish monad is STM
21:28:26 <CakeProphet> and then it's always a good idea.
21:28:29 <CakeProphet> yep. always.
21:28:32 <monqy> what i
21:29:39 <elliott> acid-state is nice database system,
21:31:37 <CakeProphet> ST is the best monad.
21:31:42 <CakeProphet> suitable for all Haskell code.
21:31:47 <CakeProphet> to make it beautiful and imperative.
21:32:15 <monqy> write all code in overloaded strings
21:32:18 <elliott> hmm, I wonder if this implementation would break the const- oh that wouldn't work
21:32:18 <elliott> hmm
21:33:14 <Taneb> I don't think it would break the const- oh that wouldn't work.
21:33:38 <elliott> it might!
21:34:06 <Taneb> What does the const- oh that wouldn't work do?
21:34:12 <elliott> Nobody knows.
21:34:52 <CakeProphet> monqy: probably the best idea ever
21:36:56 <CakeProphet> actually I'll make an extension called OverloadedAwesome
21:37:21 <elliott> hmm, I wonder if -- argh
21:37:23 <elliott> this is annoying
21:37:24 <elliott> ok
21:37:26 <CakeProphet> which does the same thing as overloadedstrings except that it uses a typeclass that also includes the return type of the fromString function as a typeclass variable.
21:37:26 <elliott> i'll do it separately
21:37:27 <elliott> fiiine
21:37:31 <elliott> ugh wait
21:37:34 <elliott> does this even allow deleting a plugin
21:37:39 <elliott> UGH WHO CARES ABOUT THE FUCKING GUARANTEES
21:37:41 <elliott> im bad at this :(
21:37:56 <CakeProphet> elliott: I often wonder the same thing about typeclass laws.
21:38:04 <elliott> CakeProphet: f u
21:38:09 <CakeProphet> lulz
21:38:30 <elliott> i just want to know how this works <crys>
21:39:37 <CakeProphet> is it true that all monads can be represented as monads?
21:39:51 <elliott> wat
21:40:03 <pikhq> ... Isn't that a tautology?
21:40:17 <CakeProphet> isn't that a tautology?
21:40:22 <elliott> isnt ur mom a tatutlgy
21:40:24 <elliott> OIHIEEJFIEJIOER
21:40:32 <elliott> esoteric the channel for intelligent discussion
21:40:33 <CakeProphet> thus you said: "isn't a tautology a tautology?"
21:40:40 <CakeProphet> how tautalogical.
21:40:46 <Taneb> C'est ne pas une tautology?
21:41:24 * Sgeo mutters something about no one having any idea how to do modules
21:41:39 <CakeProphet> your mom can fuck modularly
21:42:15 <elliott> meh, brb
21:42:53 <monqy> Sgeo: what
21:43:10 <Sgeo> Sgeo> Suppose I have two libraries that define the same constant SomeClass.
21:43:11 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> How is the conflict resolvable?
21:43:23 <Sgeo> <apeiros_> if the libraries are foreign libraries, you file a bugreport telling them to stop using common names in toplevel.
21:44:57 <Sgeo> "so how about you stop thinking about hypothetical but non-happening issues?"
21:45:50 <itidus20> I prefer parables to koans
21:46:55 <itidus20> i may not be using the word i mean though
21:47:01 <elliott> Sgeo: dont
21:47:02 <elliott> use
21:47:05 <elliott> the ruby channels
21:47:09 <elliott> theyre full of egoistic idiots
21:47:24 <Taneb> As opposed to here
21:47:37 <elliott> yes precisely
21:47:47 <elliott> no but seriously the ruby community is inexcusably bad
21:48:06 <elliott> and 99 percent of the people in the ruby channels just sit around to yell at people all day instead of helping
21:48:17 <itidus20> i think what i mean is tale, and not parable
21:50:56 <elliott> qwqwqwqwqw
21:51:17 <monqy> hi
21:51:21 <olsner> IRC-qwoping?
21:51:22 <elliott> hi
21:51:24 <elliott> botte
21:51:27 <elliott> olsner: yes
21:51:28 <elliott> (no)
21:51:32 <itidus20> bah
21:51:37 <itidus20> to hell with qwop!
21:51:44 <Taneb> girp is much better
21:51:54 <elliott> oh god girp
21:52:11 <itidus20> oh you may think i'm kidding
21:52:23 <itidus20> but i am an anti-qwop
21:52:30 <elliott> itidus20: have you played girp
21:52:31 <Taneb> One of the only games I've seen where doing what it's based on actually helps, girp is
21:52:52 <itidus20> yup
21:52:56 <itidus20> i think so..
21:53:04 <itidus20> im guessing its the rockclimbing one
21:53:08 <Taneb> Yeah
21:53:21 <Taneb> I've got a few friends who do rockclimbing, and they are good at it.
21:53:40 <itidus20> so.. do you guys know the main role in life of the creator of those 2 games?
21:54:31 <Taneb> I do not.
21:54:45 <itidus20> he's an oxford ethics academic
21:54:51 <Taneb> Huh.
21:54:54 <itidus20> yup
21:55:39 <elliott> "the ethics of torturing people with games"
21:55:53 <elliott> http://www.foddy.net/research/ heh he is
21:56:06 <itidus20> Senior Research Fellow and Deputy Director,Programme on Ethics of the New Biosciences, Oxford Martin School, Oxford University
21:56:15 <itidus20> Junior Research Fellow, Jesus College Oxford.
21:56:22 <Sgeo> girp?
21:56:32 <itidus20> i don't know what a research fellow is though]
21:56:41 <elliott> little master cricket is hard :(
21:57:23 <itidus20> you will notice several of his papers are written with J savulescu
21:57:38 * Sgeo tries it
21:57:42 <itidus20> now, do any of you know who j savulescu is?
21:57:48 <Vorpal> <itidus20> so.. do you guys know the main role in life of the creator of those 2 games? <-- which two games. Grip and? I can't find it in the scrollback.
21:57:58 <itidus20> qwop
21:58:09 <Vorpal> huh, *googles*
21:58:12 <itidus20> girp and qwop
21:58:39 <cheater> a fellow is a person at oxford who works for a college.
21:58:57 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:59:21 <cheater> research fellow = works at an institute, probably with no student interaction
21:59:58 <cheater> i lived right in front of jesus college heh
22:00:02 <itidus20> so basically, foddy writes games on the side... and he is a senior research fellow and deputy director at "Programme on Ethics of the New Biosciences," at oxford
22:00:09 -!- Taneb has joined.
22:00:33 <itidus20> but he also writes some of his papers alongside j savulescu
22:00:47 <cheater> there's a small lane that leads from jesus college to the high street, it has a historical name of "gropecunt lane"
22:00:54 <Sgeo> I can;t figure out how to not drown
22:01:21 <itidus20> J. Savulescu is a highly controversial figure.
22:01:27 <Vorpal> itidus20, how does grip play. I don't have flash so I can't try it.
22:01:31 <itidus20> I mean.. its not a bad thing necessarily
22:01:43 <Vorpal> itidus20, if it is anything like qwop it will be horrible
22:01:56 <Vorpal> (which I found a wp article on)
22:02:05 <itidus20> Vorpal: the rockface has places your hands can hold labelled with letters
22:02:11 <Taneb> GIRP is like a climber that can only use his arms
22:02:13 <cheater> i like the path that goes from the front of jesus college to jesus green, that's usually fairly quiet
22:02:18 <itidus20> you have to hold the letter to hold the rock
22:02:25 <Taneb> And the tide rises
22:02:25 <cheater> it's right next to the chapel so you can hear some organ playing every now and then
22:02:28 <Vorpal> itidus20, heh
22:02:34 <Taneb> And there're birds
22:02:40 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
22:02:41 <Vorpal> itidus20, and the letters are all over the place?
22:02:43 <cheater> you can also visit, e.g. when one of the students is there. the chapel is really beautiful with dark wood everywhere.
22:02:58 <cheater> the acoustics are pretty good, it's not so huge but it's also very high
22:02:59 <Taneb> Spaced out a bit, Vorpal
22:03:19 <Vorpal> Taneb, could mean some problematic moves, trying to reach under your hands and such?
22:03:36 <elliott> that's sort of the point
22:03:42 <Vorpal> elliott, aha
22:03:49 <itidus20> vorpal, so you have a key held down constantly at every point in the game basically
22:04:01 <Vorpal> itidus20, I see
22:04:01 <Sgeo> cheater, I drown too soon to visit anywhere
22:04:03 <itidus20> when your hands both leave the keyboard thats the game over
22:04:08 <Taneb> Unless you launch yourself
22:04:15 <Taneb> Which I have seen done successfully
22:04:37 <cheater> sgeo, try getting an inflatable flotation device built in, like cmdr data.
22:04:58 <Vorpal> itidus20, so the games are made to be as annoying as possible?
22:05:08 <Taneb> Pretty much
22:05:20 <elliott> the word is CHALLENGING
22:05:28 <Vorpal> Taneb, what is the reason for this?
22:05:29 <Deewiant> GIRP was fun
22:05:33 <itidus20> With regards to the innocent seeming QWOP, it should be noted that a guy who wrote several papers with the game's author is also on record of saying performance enhancing drugs should be legalized
22:05:44 * Sgeo goes on YouTube
22:05:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:05:57 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, it certainly worked, they're internet famous and I imagine the iPhone versions have made a handy profit
22:06:03 <elliott> itidus20: you are joking right
22:06:08 <elliott> are you actually saying that gwop is malicious
22:06:10 <elliott> qwpo
22:06:10 <itidus20> so he is very controversial this j savulescu
22:06:11 <elliott> qwop
22:06:12 <Vorpal> cheater, Sgeo: which game are /you/ talking about?
22:06:18 <Sgeo> ...I didn't realize you could flex micles
22:06:21 <Sgeo> Vorpal, girp
22:06:23 <elliott> cheater is being an idiot, Sgeo is talking about girp
22:06:26 <cheater> vorpal: oxford irl.
22:06:29 <itidus20> elliott: do i really sound like i am joking.
22:06:33 <itidus20> hehe
22:06:36 <elliott> itidus20: it's really hard to tell with you :P
22:06:36 <Vorpal> elliott, heh. Touch screen to do the holding on iphone? that sounds playable
22:06:45 <elliott> Vorpal: i doubt it's anything so easy
22:06:50 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
22:06:52 <itidus20> i have tried to lay it out. ill be more precise
22:07:14 <itidus20> -- B. Foddy wrote a bunch of games including QWOP and GIRP.
22:07:40 <itidus20> -- B. Foddy is an oxford senior research fellow on "Programme on Ethics of the New Biosciences"
22:07:41 <cheater> i hate the fact that those games are written in flash
22:07:56 <cheater> which means that random slowdowns happen which make you lose the game no matter how good you really are
22:08:03 <itidus20> -- B. Foddy has written several of his papers in collaboration with J. Savulescu
22:08:27 <Vorpal> cheater, obviously part of the challenge
22:08:52 <itidus20> -- J. Savulescu is on record as saying performance enhancing drugs should be legalized.
22:08:56 <cheater> sucky challenge
22:09:05 <cheater> might as well play the machines
22:09:30 <itidus20> -- J. Savulescu is a controversial figure. I don't know the gamut of his views. I don't have a quote here unfortunately.
22:09:40 <itidus20> He is allowed to be controversial though :-)
22:09:58 <cheater> http://metsmerizedonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/one-armed-bandit1.jpg
22:10:08 <cheater> qwop, except qwop has four levers.
22:10:44 <itidus20> on googling his name, j savulescu has an article called
22:10:49 <itidus20> "Savulescu J. Rational non-interventional paternalism: why doctors ought to make judgments of what is best for their patients"
22:11:22 <Sgeo> I wonder how well a grandroid brain would do hooked up somehow to girp
22:11:53 <itidus20> i dunno... that didnt mean what i thought it meant
22:12:04 <itidus20> ill try to find something meaningful
22:12:24 <cheater> jesus.. fucking bugs
22:12:27 <cheater> scared the shit out of me
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22:12:54 <cheater> i'm sitting here in a completely silent room, then a bug starts buzzing. they're really loud, and it starts flying towards me, spiraling, and stuff.
22:12:59 <itidus20> ok here is the abstract from one of his papers (not foddy, but a guy he has worked on several papers with)
22:13:06 <itidus20> The most publicly justifiable application of human cloning, if there is one at all, is to provide self-compatible cells or tissues for medical use, especially transplantation. Some have argued that this raises no new ethical issues above those raised by any form of embryo experimentation. I argue that this research is less morally problematic than other embryo research. Indeed, it is not merely morally permissible but moral
22:13:06 <itidus20> ly required that we employ cloning to produce embryos or fetuses for the sake of providing cells, tissues or even organs for therapy, followed by abortion of the embryo or fetus.
22:13:41 <cheater> so that's why he's controversial
22:13:47 <cheater> man what a cheap shot
22:14:02 <Sgeo> Note: Playing without reading the intructions is highly unrecommended
22:14:03 <itidus20> no.. i told you he wants to legalize performanec enhancing drugs
22:14:13 <itidus20> not foddy but savulesco
22:14:20 <itidus20> he is controversial in every direction
22:14:28 <itidus20> but im not saying this is a bad thing
22:14:28 <cheater> i expected at least some sort of controversy he came up with, as opposed to me-too rationalizations of hipster dilemas
22:15:19 <cheater> performance enhancing drugs are legal already
22:15:34 <itidus20> well eg in the olympics
22:15:35 <cheater> other drugs are illegal because they REDUCE performance after the initial boost.
22:15:48 <cheater> you're allowed to take aspirin in the olympics
22:15:54 <cheater> it boosts your performance
22:15:57 <cheater> it's not illegal.
22:16:23 <itidus20> Savulescu argues that humanity is on the brink of disappearing in a metaphorical Bermuda Triangle unless certain eugenic steps are taken to correct what he considers to be aberrant human behaviour and overly liberal laws.
22:16:56 <Phantom_Hoover> cheater, shut up.
22:17:02 <cheater> oh no, let's not all disappear
22:17:08 <cheater> Phantom_Hoover, no u
22:17:09 <itidus20> he concludes that even if embryonic stem cell research involves the killing of a person, it is justified.
22:17:34 <itidus20> s he has argued for the following: (1) That parents have a responsibility to select the best children they could have given all of the relevant genetic information available to them, a principle that he extends to the use of in-vitro fertilization (IVF) and preimplantation genetic diagnoses (PGD) in order to determine the intelligence of embryos and possible children.
22:17:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover tirelessly works for our children.
22:17:59 <itidus20> again.. he has a right to do all this...
22:18:13 <elliott> itidus20: why are you telling us this
22:18:26 <itidus20> but, my point is that he writes several papers with the guy who made QWOP and GIRP
22:18:33 <elliott> so what??
22:19:16 <cheater> obviously those games are a huge social experiment
22:19:32 <cheater> you are but a cog in the machinery of deranged human torment
22:19:36 <cheater> etc
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22:19:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Perhaps QWOP and GIRP are disguised eugenics programmes.
22:19:49 <cheater> victory!
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22:20:27 <Taneb> I'm afraid I've got to the point where I'm staring into the Chromium new tab page
22:20:30 <itidus20> theres other aspects to this..
22:20:32 <elliott> i should probably port this to enumerators oops
22:20:33 <Taneb> And it's staring bacl.
22:20:37 <Taneb> I should sleep
22:20:38 <elliott> Taneb: its me hi
22:20:40 <itidus20> i mean.. foddy isn't the same person as savulescu
22:21:25 <Taneb> elliott: What do you mean it's you?
22:21:31 <elliott> IM TAB
22:21:45 <Taneb> That exists?
22:22:03 <elliott> What exists
22:22:15 <Taneb> I'm tired, I need slepp
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22:22:27 <elliott> ok
22:22:49 <cheater> does anyone know if it's possible to connect two usb keyboards to a pc and type with one hand on one and vice versa?
22:23:23 <cheater> i know a computer will recognize both but will there be no problems with them e.g. coming out of sync, because the delay of data transfer from the keyboard to the OS fluctuates?
22:23:38 <cheater> with one keyboard you have just one output buffer
22:24:10 <cheater> i'm afraid that with two keyboards you might end up with swapped keys if you e.g. quickly press a key on one and then the other in succession
22:24:44 <olsner> if you press the buttons in the wrong order, how is the computer supposed to know that you meant something else?
22:24:49 <itidus20> in any case i hope i have opened up the view that QWOP and GIRP aren't accidently deep.
22:24:52 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> IM TAB
22:24:57 <itidus20> i admit that my notion of evil is probably misplaced
22:24:58 <Phantom_Hoover> You can't be, you're the mouse.
22:25:14 <cheater> i press them in the right order, but due to fluctuating delays they arrive in the wrong order at the OS kernel
22:25:28 <cheater> that is the hypothesis
22:25:53 * Phantom_Hoover → sleep
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22:26:15 <itidus20> from an article i found this is fascinating:
22:26:17 <itidus20> It's all about exploring the way gamers embody the character on screen. "When you play a video game," Foddy explains to Wired.co.uk, "as long as there is a very short time between your formation of an intention to act and something happening on screen, there's a kind of neurological magic which makes you feel like you are the character, rather than just controlling a little guy on a screen."
22:26:42 <itidus20> His games toy with that sensation, in different ways. QWOP turns the whole thing on its head, "making a deliberate disconnect between your intentions and the character's actions." GIRP, on the other hand, maximises the feeling of embodiment, through Foddy's ingenious metaphor which turns your keyboard into an impromptu cliff face. "You have to grip the keyboard just like you would cling to the cliff," he says.
22:26:51 <cheater> yeah
22:27:13 <cheater> there is a similar effect in musical instruments which i have described on the synth-diy mailing list years back
22:27:18 <cheater> i should talk to foddy then
22:28:17 <itidus20> i suppose i am glad noone is questioning the intent of qwop
22:33:48 <itidus20> i mean in the greater community
22:34:00 <itidus20> its like santa
22:34:11 <itidus20> santa was designed to promote coke but it obviously outgrew coke
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22:37:06 <elliott> you
22:37:07 <elliott> realise that
22:37:08 <elliott> santa
22:37:11 <elliott> existed before coke
22:37:48 <itidus20> ill wiki
22:38:06 <elliott> ...
22:38:28 <Patashu> lol
22:38:53 <itidus20> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa#Origins
22:40:04 <itidus20> sinterklaas looks like he doesn't need any help from coke
22:40:15 <Sgeo> http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2007/dec/10/coke-denies-claims-it-bottled-familiar-santa/
22:40:48 <elliott> even if they made the red outfit
22:40:52 <elliott> that doesnt mean theyfucking invented santa calause
22:41:23 <itidus20> elliott: it turns out they didn't invent anything
22:42:07 <itidus20> going by sgeo's link
22:42:47 <itidus20> i apologize for my errors
22:43:04 <itidus20> -- theres 16th century santa in red and white: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sinter-claes-saint-nicolas-dam800.jpg
22:45:44 <itidus20> so all in all my basis was wrong
22:46:48 <itidus20> but still.. people have enjoyed qwop without knowing that it comes from someone who comes across as a bit of a game designer mad scientist by association from what i have spelled out
22:49:48 <Vorpal> itidus20, wait a second. "enjoyed qwop"? I watched a youtube video of it, and it looks horrible
22:50:04 <Vorpal> doesn't look enjoyable at all
22:50:13 <itidus20> well it is celebrated
22:50:53 <Vorpal> itidus20, that is not the same thing as enjoying it
22:51:39 <itidus20> true
22:52:56 <fizzie> I'm sure some people have enjoyed the feeling of triumph when they've finally managed to make the guy go.
22:53:30 <fizzie> "I enjoyed QWOP on PC so I might get it for ipod too", writes "glowtmickey".
22:54:49 <fizzie> Diff'rent strokes and so on.
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22:56:28 <itidus20> bioethics senior research fellow makes games about running and rockclimbing, writes articles in cooperation with "person who advocates performance enhancing drugs, genetic engineering of children by parents, stem cell research is justifiable even if one accepts the view of the embryo as a person"
22:57:35 <elliott> You've said.
22:57:36 <elliott> Repeatedly.
22:57:53 <itidus20> there must be some hidden meaning in it
22:58:00 <elliott> Or maybe there isn't.
22:58:10 <elliott> Maybe collaborating with someone doesn't mean you agree with them about literally everything.
22:59:13 <itidus20> Savulescu's article "Brain Damage and the Moral Significance of Consciousness" appears to be the first mainstream publication to argue that increased evidence of consciousness in patients diagnosed with being in persistent vegetative state actually supports withdrawing or withholding care
22:59:56 <itidus20> well thats a tough one.........
23:00:13 <itidus20> i'll give him credit that he takes on the big issues
23:01:35 <itidus20> ok i will never speak of foddy or savulesco or qwop or girp again myself in here. :D
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23:38:50 <elliott> hmm, naming things is hard
23:51:57 <elliott> ?hoogle asum
23:51:57 <lambdabot> Data.Foldable asum :: (Foldable t, Alternative f) => t (f a) -> f a
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