00:00:05 out of existing languages, Feather is most visually similar to Smalltalk, but that's mostly because one of its design goals is "the syntax should look similar to Smalltalk's, regardless of whether it means the same thing or not" 00:00:41 and something I haven't seen anywhere else: nested one-line comments 00:01:04 how does that work? 00:01:08 mauke: as in, # abc # def 00:01:12 and they're two different comments? 00:01:19 I don't see how that's different from one-line comments that don't nest 00:01:19 easy. REM starts a comment 00:01:22 newline ends a comment 00:01:26 comments may be nested 00:02:08 ah 00:02:11 REM foo REM bar 00:02:12 quux 00:02:12 ? 00:02:27 yep 00:02:44 heh 00:03:04 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 00:03:04 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Changing host). 00:03:04 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 00:03:04 -!- adam__ has joined. 00:03:22 if you look at the documentation, it doesn't bother to mention all the interesting stuff 00:03:32 heh 00:03:45 like how it's rather non-trivial to just parse a sequence of statements 00:04:03 I'm not even sure you can write a grammar for ploki 00:04:32 some non-eso languages have that property too, like perl 5 00:04:39 perl has a yacc grammar 00:04:44 boring 00:04:56 yacc is TC 00:05:03 so that says nothing other than "you can run perl" 00:05:45 mauke: note that it has to run part of the program at compile time to manage that 00:05:53 ais523: yes, just like lisp 00:05:57 thus, parsing perl requires running arbitrary code, which might contain an infinite loop 00:06:00 oldest trick in the book 00:06:02 lisp doesn't have a grammar either 00:06:04 (readtable) 00:06:14 you'd think parsing Lisp would be easy 00:06:20 ploki could (theoretically) be compiled, though 00:06:25 it has no eval or anything 00:06:28 then it has a grammar :P 00:06:36 "Wiki Loves Monuments: Photograph a monument, help Wikipedia and win!" <-- umm, what 00:06:54 elliott: you can try to write one and I will tell you how it's broken :-) 00:07:04 mauke: if you can compile it, it has a grammar 00:07:10 it might not have a grammar with very many nice properties, but it has one 00:08:31 ??/ looks like a trigraph 00:08:35 what you're saying sounds mathematically true but I still don't know how to write it down 00:08:57 yeah, I put that in because trigraphs are a great eso feature 00:09:31 mauke: well, if you want to compile it, you have to transform it; it's not much of a compiler if it can fail to halt (barring obscure bugs like GHC has), therefore you can make enough sense of the code to compile it down to a fixed number of operations that don't cheat (i.e. embedding an interpreter) in finite time, so you can parse it 00:09:43 cheating is kind of a subjective notion so I'm not sure there is a reasonable mathematical statement of it 00:11:01 as far as I know ploki doesn't fit in any parsing frameworks/generators/combinators 00:11:13 so that's going to be fun 00:12:08 those are usually fairly limited 00:12:13 beyond embedding your own parser in a code block 00:12:23 like i said, it might not have good properties, but it's certainly parseable :P 00:14:50 general chomsky grammars are TC 00:15:06 oerjan: what is a "general chomsky grammar" 00:15:21 annd I think I found a bug 00:15:52 augur: type-0 00:16:09 oerjan: and why is that a "general chomsky grammar" 00:16:35 chomsky opinions for a chomsky era 00:17:00 because it's called the "chomsky hierarchy", and it's a grammar by chomsky's definition without additional restrictions 00:17:36 and yes, it wasn't the technical term, that is type-0 grammar 00:17:48 which i had to look up to recall 00:17:56 oerjan: sure, but any grammar is type-0 00:18:03 great, a bug in the optimizer 00:18:27 and even within the strictly type-0 grammars, only a subset of them are TC 00:18:31 augur: thus "general", you stupid git 00:18:43 er 00:19:03 further, why "general" and "chomsky" are used makes no sense to me 00:19:11 augur: type-0 grammars as a _whole_ is a TC formalism 00:19:35 its the class that you need for giving TC grammars in, sure 00:19:54 augur: because i didn't remember the correct term, and you lack sufficient reading comprehension to understand a simple phrase 00:19:56 but thue and post preceeded chomsky in the matter 00:19:57 if (x >= 0) then '0' else 1 // this expression can be given a type! 00:20:01 :? 00:20:08 chomsky just gave a hierarchy of such systems 00:20:41 Sgeo: :1:5: Not in scope: `x' 00:21:07 * Sgeo isn't talking about Haskell 00:21:09 augur: afaik he _invented_ these formal grammars 00:21:21 oerjan: when your knowing is wrong 00:21:22 * mauke is 00:21:22 http://www.ats-lang.org/DOCUMENT/INTPROGINATS/HTML/x322.html 00:21:28 -!- adam__ has quit (Quit: leaving). 00:21:34 but thue and post preceeded chomsky in the matter 00:21:35 chomsky just gave a hierarchy of such systems 00:21:37 :t curry 00:21:37 "When Noam Chomsky first formalized generative grammars in 1956,[1] he classified them into types now known as the Chomsky hierarchy." 00:21:38 forall a b c. ((a, b) -> c) -> a -> b -> c 00:21:41 :t schönfinkel 00:21:42 Not in scope: `sch' 00:21:43 augur: ? 00:21:50 elliott: O_O 00:21:51 augur: very well, go and correct wikipedia for me 00:22:02 augur: well? 00:22:13 oerjan: generative grammars for describing languages 00:22:39 augur: oh well 00:22:39 rewrite systems of the same sort were used prior in the context of logic/math/cs for a while before chomsky 00:22:47 Sgeo: does it have subtyping? 00:23:14 chomsky might have also given the first meta-analysis. 00:23:17 augur: i assume you know what i'm talking about? 00:23:22 elliott: well what 00:23:22 I have no idea, but ATS is type-obsessed, so I'm going to go with "probably" 00:23:36 augur: 00:23:39 :t curry 00:23:39 forall a b c. ((a, b) -> c) -> a -> b -> c 00:23:40 :t schönfinkel 00:23:42 Not in scope: `sch' 00:23:48 augur: why aren't you complaining to the haskell committee? 00:23:49 elliott: what about it 00:24:44 elliott: well for one, a name is not the same as an attribution, and for two, a false attribution is not the same as a real attribution 00:25:03 "general chomsky grammar" sounds like a name to me 00:25:06 not an attribution 00:25:19 and currying is more rightly attributed to Schönfinkel 00:26:00 elliott: except chomsky's name isn't even remotely established as a name for a class of grammars 00:26:06 unless you mean in a linguistic context 00:26:22 augur: you realise this is insufferable, right? 00:26:34 :) 00:26:37 elliott: yeah dammit he managed to get _me_ angry 00:27:00 ice coffee --> 00:27:15 plausibly, a chomsky grammar could be used to refer to a grammar in chomsky normal form 00:27:39 @let schönfinkel = curry 00:27:40 Defined. 00:27:53 :t schönfinkel 00:27:55 Not in scope: `sch' 00:28:02 > schönfinkel 00:28:03 Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show 00:28:03 (((a, ... 00:28:03 for some reason :t does not like non-ASCII characters 00:28:06 but its hard to see how it makes any sense to call string rewriting systems "chomsky grammars" 00:28:17 * oerjan wonders how that is parsed 00:28:22 :t (ö) 00:28:23 parse error (possibly incorrect indentation) 00:28:32 > (ö) 00:28:33 Not in scope: ` 00:28:36 :t is broken 00:28:37 Not in scope: `is' 00:28:37 Not in scope: `broken' 00:28:38 as far as unicode goes 00:28:43 oh kmc said that 00:29:01 :t schoenfinkel 00:29:02 Not in scope: `schoenfinkel' 00:29:06 > schönfinkel snd 2 3 00:29:07 oh if only it were smart like that! 00:29:08 3 00:29:27 curry fst = const :o 00:29:39 mmy, currywurst 00:29:46 i agree 00:30:16 i see my domination plan is running as expected 00:30:22 :t "ö" 00:30:23 lexical error in string/character literal at end of input 00:30:31 :t "\ö" 00:30:32 unexpected end-of-file in string/character literal at end of input 00:30:34 -!- Rotaerk has joined. 00:30:41 worse and worse 00:30:52 -!- Rotaerk has left ("Leaving"). 00:31:27 cheater: your plan will be foiled when everyone on haskell-blah ends up talking about their esolang interpreters 00:31:56 using more notation 00:34:39 -!- cheater has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 00:35:44 oh dear, I actually rely on fromInteger for tuples 00:36:11 does anyone know a good way to track down the source of "error" calls in Haskell? :P 00:40:16 -!- Guest8904 has changed nick to Gregor. 00:42:57 http://haskell.org/haskellwiki/FAQ#How_can_I_get_a_stack_backtrace_when_my_program_throws_an_exception.3F 00:43:31 also http://hackage.haskell.org/package/spoon 00:43:33 yeah, that's cheating though :P 00:43:40 isn't something fancy coming up in the next release? 00:43:45 or was that the release that came out 00:43:45 i hadn't heard 00:43:52 of GHC? 00:44:05 something simon marlow on google+ that was linked on /r/haskell about solving the stack trace problem 00:44:31 i like how in Haskell, hard things are easy and easy things are hard 00:44:32 I don't think spoon helps me, since this is an erroneous call to fromIntegral 00:45:06 kmc: https://plus.google.com/107890464054636586545/posts/XE4T6hHm3tK 00:45:15 I guess it might be a while before that hits mainline GHC 00:45:38 Well, I did make esolang interpreter in Haskell once (actually it is the first Haskell program I wrote) 00:47:31 shiro: fromInteger on tuple 00:47:34 that's one user-friendly backtrace 00:49:15 especially since coreIns has, like, a hundred pattern cases with completely orthogonal behaviour 00:50:33 fromInteger on tuple, i assume that's your error message since haskell is statically typed :P 00:51:41 yep :P 00:51:58 I should probably just define my own names for the two tuple operations I use 00:52:09 oh 00:52:11 I bet I know why oerjan 00:52:20 instance (Num a, Num b) => Num (a,b) where 00:52:20 (a,b) + (c,d) = (a+c, b+d) 00:52:20 (a,b) - (c,d) = (a-c, b-d) 00:52:20 -- These don't really make any sense 00:52:20 (*) = error "(*) on tuple" 00:52:22 abs = error "abs on tuple" 00:52:24 signum = error "signum on tuple" 00:52:26 fromInteger = error "fromInteger on tuple" 00:52:30 oerjan: I use "negate" on tuples to do pointwise negation 00:52:37 oerjan: previously, fromInteger a = (fromInteger a, fromInteger a) 00:52:42 can you spot the problem? :P 00:52:54 yes, you actually need fromInteger to work then 00:53:06 yep 00:53:09 so I just need to define my own negate 00:53:55 @src negate 00:53:56 negate x = 0 - x 00:54:01 oh hm no 00:54:07 oh wait yes 01:03:49 "ddarius: isJust :: Maybe a -> Bool; isJust = unsafeCoerce 01:03:51 " 01:04:20 Maybe a bool IS just unsafe coerce! 01:05:15 !haskell import Unsafe.Coerce; main = print (map unsafeCoerce [Just "so", Nothing, Just "hm..."] :: [Bool]) 01:05:20 oerjan: it works 01:05:23 ​[True,False,True] 01:05:23 we tested it when it happened recently 01:06:15 !haskell import Unsafe.Coerce; main = print (map unsafeCoerce [Left "what", Right "about", Left "this?"] :: [Bool]) 01:06:20 ​[False,True,False] 01:06:30 -!- MDude has joined. 01:06:37 ooh and what about... 01:06:43 !haskell import Unsafe.Coerce; main = print (map unsafeCoerce [Left "what", Right "about", Left "this?"] :: [Maybe String]) 01:06:47 oerjan: he expanded on it more 01:06:48 ​[Nothing,Just "about",Nothing] 01:06:50 anything with under four constructors works 01:06:50 iirc 01:06:58 aha 01:07:07 because of pointer tagging and bits and blah, presumably 01:07:14 or was it <= four 01:07:45 oh you mean when the number of constructors are not the same 01:08:18 haha, the FQA author proves that he isn't a troll by explaining that writing an entire FQA doesn't have a good cost/benefit response when it comes to trolling 01:08:56 "Cale: the units of the monoids in the algebras for the monoid monad 01:08:57 " 01:09:09 i'm not sure if i should want to understand that or not 01:09:20 Shiro/FungeSpace.hs:85:22: Error: Use elem 01:09:20 Found 01:09:20 w == cr || w == lf 01:09:20 Why not 01:09:20 w `elem` [cr, lf] 01:09:22 but hlint 01:09:24 that could be slower :( 01:09:28 "the monoid monad" is [], i know 01:09:31 monoids form a monad? 01:09:34 ah, hmm 01:09:41 that's a crazy terminology for it 01:09:54 [] is more like a sort of ordered threading 01:09:57 oerjan: Cale was just demonstrating how monads are like monoids in some way 01:09:58 I think 01:09:59 I forget how 01:10:44 ais523: every algebraic variety (such as monoids) gives a monad in the Set category of math. some of them (iiuc, those that don't require comparing terms for equality) also work in Hask. 01:10:48 -!- azaq23 has joined. 01:11:15 just seeing the word "Hask" fills me with horror 01:11:32 ais523: well by that i mean that they correspond to haskell Monads. 01:11:37 because it implies that a) Haskell forms a category (not surprising if you take an idealized version of it), and b) people use it enough to actually use it 01:11:42 *to actually name it 01:11:46 Haskell forms many categories 01:11:57 no idealisation required 01:11:59 umm, Haskell expressions form a category 01:12:11 probably a cartesian closed one with symmetrical braiding 01:12:36 if a programming language doesn't do that, computer scientists typically don't consider it worth thinking about 01:13:21 (I tried to do that for Burro, and was a little disappointed that I couldn't find a decent tensor operator, which corresponds to tuple formation in most languages; interleaving tapes almost works except that it isn't associative) 01:13:22 it's close to cartesian closed, but i have a vague recall or hunch that bottoms maybe mess up the exact definition 01:13:58 in fact, I actually hear computer scientists say "that doesn't form a cartesian closed category, you must have made a mistake" 01:14:16 istr something going wrong about products or coproducts/sums 01:14:32 ais523: any cartesian monoidal category is symmetric 01:14:38 copumpkin: I thought that might be the case 01:14:43 but wasn't 100% sure I remembered the definition right 01:14:54 oerjan: CPO\_\bot works pretty well for haskell 01:14:58 including the bottoms 01:15:11 and the composition of folds and unfolds 01:15:24 in something like set, that doesn't work 01:15:26 copumpkin: you are over my head now, anyway :P 01:15:49 copumpkin: get a ph.d., then you'll be down to oerjan's level 01:15:54 lol 01:16:00 I already quit one 01:16:08 quitting two would be too much 01:16:13 my ph.d. didn't go that deep into category theory :P 01:16:40 there were some natural transformations and K-theory 01:17:55 this code is so imperative :-( 01:18:45 imperative is not necessarily bad 01:19:05 I know that in the only ICFP contest I actually entered, I decided as soon as I saw the problem that an imperative solution would work best 01:19:16 and wondered why on earth that was done in a contest attached to a functional programming conference 01:20:21 oerjan: CPO\_\bot works pretty well for haskell <-- * me vaguely wonders if that's an actual math term based on complete partial orders (probably), or if there's an actual bot lurking on freenode somewhere 01:20:37 lol no 01:20:40 I would tend to disagree with that viewpoint 01:20:42 it's a category of complete partial orders 01:21:12 lollercoaster notation 01:22:27 oerjan: I assumed it was a Freenode bot, and was wondering what the \_\ was for 01:22:39 -!- elliott has changed nick to CPO\_\bot. 01:22:40 what does \_ mean in (presumably LaTeX) anyway? 01:22:40 ais523: hi five 01:22:42 YESSSSSS 01:22:43 S 01:22:53 ok I am going to make this into the best haskell evaluation bot EVER 01:23:04 ais523: i _suspect_ the first \ may be a typo 01:23:10 it needs to do stuff with complete partial orders, too 01:23:14 oerjan: oh, right, that would make sense 01:23:21 and \_ would presumably be literal underscore? 01:23:33 so what's CPO⊥ ? 01:23:34 i don't recall 01:23:39 kmc: complete partial order 01:23:46 unfortunately Unicode lacks a "subscript ⊥" character 01:23:51 or wait 01:23:54 i will write an angry letter to the Committee 01:23:57 and adding bottom on there presumably means a complete partial order with bottom included? 01:24:05 kmc: They'll get it in right after Goat. 01:24:08 clearly, Unicode needs combining superscript and subscript 01:24:11 kmc: read http://www.cs.ox.ac.uk/ralf.hinze/SSGIP10/AdjointFolds.pdf 01:24:15 Deewiant: Actually, the new Fungespace might not be that far away :-) 01:24:31 kmc: ignore the shitty fraktur :P 01:24:34 Sorry, I mean sparse discrete finite lahey-space. 01:24:36 cool thanks 01:24:50 You haskellers have to promise to not say anything if a package meeting that description shows up on Hackage one day. 01:24:52 kmc: sorry my putty fonts acting up again (of all possible representations of an unknown character, why does it have to use a _blank space_?) 01:24:55 who the fuck thought http://snapplr.com/aznr was a good idea? 01:25:21 copumpkin: GOTHIK HASKEL 01:25:29 makes it look more metal 01:25:29 \m/ 01:25:41 I love the way "Lahey-space" sounds like a proper mathematical term 01:25:48 when as far as I know, it's something that cpressey just made up one day 01:25:53 ais523: it's something Lahey made up one day 01:25:56 CPO\_\bot: the \m/ \m/ version requires two neighboring ones 01:25:56 `\o/´ 01:25:56 | 01:25:56 /`\ 01:25:56 (_| |_) 01:25:58 instead of something that Gauss made up one day 01:26:03 like the rest of maths 01:26:04 ah, right 01:26:10 ais523: i was going to release my new fungespace on hackage as lahey-space, but Deewiant pointed out that there are tons of other lahey spaces than just fungespaces 01:26:18 so I need to come up with a sufficiently snappy but mathematical-sounding term for fungespace 01:26:20 oerjan: was that /meant/ to set off myndzi's script? 01:26:21 that mentions lahey-spaces 01:26:23 wow 01:26:35 \m/ \m/ \o/ ,o/ 01:26:36 `\o/´ | 01:26:36 | >\ 01:26:36 (_|¯`¯|_) 01:26:42 myndzi truly is a work of art. 01:26:48 ok I am going to make this into the best haskell evaluation bot EVER <-- i was hoping for something that did genuine category theory 01:26:50 CPO\_\bot: it's also euclidean, isn't it? 01:26:57 ais523: heh 01:27:04 ais523: no, taxicab 01:27:04 as in, there's nothing about Lahey-spaces that intrinsically makes them work like that 01:27:26 well, it follows the normal rules for making a lattice as a subset of euclidean space 01:27:36 well sure 01:27:59 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:28:02 ais523: all cpo's have bottom included i think, because that's the infimum of the whole set 01:28:23 oerjan: all cpos /on a set that includes bottom/ 01:28:32 (yes, I know the apostrophe is technically correct, it still looks wrong) 01:28:53 most of my dealing with preorders has been on finite sets 01:29:01 also, I can never remember which of a partial order and a preorder is which 01:30:21 oerjan: was that /meant/ to set off myndzi's script? <-- um yes. 01:30:38 oh, I see 01:30:47 I'd mentally placed your line in the wrong conversation 01:30:52 and was having issues parsing it as a result 01:31:04 I've been doing that more and more nowadays 01:31:15 but it's not that common that the parsing of a sentence is as context-dependent as that, it's as bad as C++ 01:32:02 ais523: bottom afaik is a term that applies inside a cpo :P 01:32:13 -!- Zuu has joined. 01:32:21 hmm, obviously CPO means something that isn't complete + partial order 01:32:30 it wouldn't be the first time that had happened in maths 01:32:37 i suspect the _\bot is a restriction on the _arrows_, not the objects 01:32:48 namely that they send bottoms to bottoms 01:32:58 (is my guess) 01:33:12 although that excludes non-strict functions, hm 01:33:13 oh, there can be more than one bottom? I assumed it was meant to be a terminal object 01:33:33 no, just one bottom in each object. 01:33:53 categories as applied to programming languages normally consider objects as types and arrows as functions between those types, and actual values don't get involved at all 01:33:58 each haskell type is represented by one set with a CPO structure, afaik 01:34:00 except as degenerate functions 01:34:08 so each set has a bottom element 01:35:21 of course the Void data type may be such a terminal element which has only bottom in it 01:36:08 hmm, I should try out haskell-emacs I guess 01:37:46 and also because of haskell 01:38:17 's nonstrictness, functions from Void to T are 1-1 with values in T 01:39:01 Hmm, is there any portable way to get the number of existing environment variables? 01:39:05 for a strict language you'd want functions from () to T instead, i assume 01:39:31 @hoogle getEnv 01:39:32 System.Environment getEnv :: String -> IO String 01:39:32 System.Environment getEnvironment :: IO [(String, String)] 01:39:36 oerjan: in C 01:39:42 oh 01:39:46 Or, I guess: How do you get the whole environment in Windows? 01:39:51 * oerjan slinks away 01:40:08 Deewiant? :-P 01:40:12 You use the SET command 01:40:24 I do not know how to do it in C or other programming languages. 01:41:40 !haskell length `fmap` System.Environment.getEnvironment 01:41:43 35 01:42:38 I found out I have a file on my computer about the rules for "Uncyclopedian Poker". The deck contains 172 cards, 32 of which are Wilde cards. The game involves the "toilet" and the "tax collection". 01:43:25 Apparently an ace of spades is called a "half-motor" in this game. 01:44:41 If it works for him, that's great, but I would happily drop cinder blocks on my feet to get away from this architecture. Does that work? 01:44:59 ais523: here, do you know how to access the environment from Windows C? 01:45:28 CPO\_\bot: it depends on what version of Windows C you're using; I've even seen some where it was "third arg to main" 01:45:41 but at least in Windows 3.1, I think they provided a getenv with moderately posixy semantics 01:45:57 ais523: yes, but I want more than getenv/putenv give 01:46:19 also, here's a fun one: did you know that the fourth arg to main is a struct, one of whose elements contains random numbers? 01:46:23 I haven't figured out what it's for yet 01:46:26 also, this seems specific to ELF 01:46:46 which gives a bit of a mental disconnect to me, "why should the fourth arg to main depend on what format the executable has" 01:47:05 either that, or I misread kernel source, as I don't think it's documented anywhere I've read 01:47:08 it's not random 01:47:11 they're the ELF header, I think 01:47:52 oh, here we go: http://articles.manugarg.com/aboutelfauxiliaryvectors.html 01:47:55 CPO\_\bot: not the header, exactly 01:48:03 they're info from the header filled into a struct by the ELF loader 01:48:07 same thing :P 01:48:17 but not all the info is from the header, one of the slots is just a bunch of random numbers 01:48:29 not random as in unclear what they're for, random as in reading from /dev/urandom 01:48:43 I'm wondering if I should try to stabilise them in the Secret Project, or whether nobody ever uses them anyway 01:49:05 there are other ways to fool the Secret Project, so worrying about that one seems like overkill 01:49:12 ooh, what's one way 01:49:20 getting gdb involved, in any way at all 01:49:26 the Secret Project actively resists being debugged 01:49:31 or running on debuggers 01:49:40 in fact, I haven't even managed to get it to coredump 01:49:51 as a bonus, it also causes valgrind to crash with an internal error 01:50:12 (in valgrind, that is) 01:50:28 ais523: hmm, as in, it has actual code to thwart debuggers? 01:50:34 now I'm thinking there must be some kind of untrusted element to it 01:50:44 reproducibly running student code in a sandbox? 01:50:45 CPO\_\bot: not deliberately 01:50:48 aw 01:50:52 I thought I was on to something there 01:50:59 or, in, it does have code to thwart debuggers, but that code is not there for the purpose of thwarting debuggers 01:51:13 right 01:51:24 just code that does things that only a debugger would do 01:51:57 and it's thwarting those things because they contend for access to tracepids with the secret project itsel 01:51:59 *itself 01:52:37 (I still don't get how I ended up with a process that wasn't a zombie, had apparently no parent, couldn't be killed with any signal at all (not even -9 as root) and was apparently being debugged by the real init, though...) 01:52:54 (possibly a kernel bug, the secret project's probably going to expose a bunch of those as a side-effect) 01:53:13 and it's not like I could just tell init to stop debugging it 01:54:33 I fixed it by rebooting, in the end 01:54:45 although not immediately, the situation wasn't doing any /harm/ other than being massively confusing 01:55:02 !haskell filter Unsafe.Coerce.unsafeCoerce [Left 1, Right 2, Left 3, Right 4] 01:55:05 ​[Right 2,Right 4] 01:55:20 Shiro/Types.hs:19:10: Warning: orphan instance: instance Show Any 01:55:21 : 01:55:21 Failing due to -Werror. 01:55:22 oh /come on/ 01:55:25 oerjan: wait what? 01:55:32 ais523: 01:55:35 ?quote ddarius unsafeCoerce 01:55:35 ddarius says: isJust :: Maybe a -> Bool; isJust = unsafeCoerce 01:55:39 is this something to do with Either's definition of a monad? 01:55:57 what? 01:55:59 no 01:56:01 Does that work? 01:56:06 it's to do with GHC's pointer representation 01:56:08 zzo38: yes 01:56:10 ah, I see 01:56:15 @src isJust 01:56:15 isJust Nothing = False 01:56:15 isJust _ = True 01:56:24 bleh, I was hoping it would be defined /as/ unsafeCoerce 01:56:27 I don't think you should write it that way except possibly in an optimization rule 01:56:48 !haskell Data.Maybe.catMaybes $ Unsafe.Coerce.unsafeCoerce [Left 1, Right 2, Left 3, Right 4] 01:56:51 ​[(),()] 01:56:53 As an optimization rule, write it that way but leave a note in case it stops working in a different version or on different computers 01:56:59 ah hm 01:57:08 !haskell Data.Maybe.catMaybes $ Unsafe.Coerce.unsafeCoerce [Left 1, Right 2, Left 3, Right 4] :: [Integer] 01:57:11 ​[2,4] 01:57:18 :t Unsafe.Coerce.unsafeCoerce 01:57:18 forall a b. a -> b 01:57:22 I thought os 01:57:23 *so 01:57:28 hmm, this is reminding me of Ursala 01:57:30 As an optimization rule, write it that way but leave a note in case it stops working in a different version or on different computers 01:57:34 which did that sort of thing to /everything/ 01:57:35 zzo38: it already optimises down to that at runtime, almost certainly 01:57:37 this is just a silly trick 01:57:46 Overload did too, I suppose 01:57:47 ais523: I still think Ursala was actually really interesting 01:57:59 CPO\_\bot: it had interesting ideas there, they were just assembled in an insane way 01:58:06 it reminds me quite a bit of Overload, actually 01:58:19 hmm, what's the standard operator for vector+vector again? 01:58:22 .+.? 01:58:27 Describe more about Overload? 01:58:46 @quote ddarius isJust 01:58:46 ddarius says: isJust :: Maybe a -> Bool; isJust = unsafeCoerce 01:58:46 ddarius wins! 01:58:50 zzo38: the language that Underload is a tarpit of, it has things like equivalences between characters and lists of strings, and pointers 01:58:50 ok, who's the spy :D 01:59:20 and is possibly internally consistent, but large and sprawling and unmaintainable 01:59:22 ais523: You told me that before. Write more about Overload in the [[Talk:Underload]] page in Esolang wiki 01:59:39 there isn't much more to write 01:59:40 ais523: or ELSE 01:59:44 I have some unfinished interps you can look at 01:59:50 if you want to get an idea of what the lang is like 02:00:00 ais523: OK, post those to the [[Talk:Underload]]. 02:00:07 nah, it's an entirely unrelated language 02:00:14 that Underload is a tarpit of Overload is mostly just coincidence 02:00:20 or, umm, historical etymology, or something 02:00:23 !haskell print (Unsafe.Coerce.unsafeCoerce False :: Maybe Int) 02:00:24 Then post it on your user page. 02:00:25 !haskell print (Unsafe.Coerce.unsafeCoerce True :: Maybe Int) 02:00:26 Nothing 02:00:30 the only real evidence is that <>[] are reserved in Underload for no apparent reason 02:00:32 !haskell print (Unsafe.Coerce.unsafeCoerce True :: Maybe Int) 02:00:34 ​./interps/ghc/runghc: line 7: 30354 Segmentation fault ghc -O2 -e "`cat $1`" 2> /dev/null 02:00:35 I'll just post it in-channel, seems simplest 02:00:40 -!- CPO\_\bot has changed nick to elliott. 02:00:47 !haskell print (Unsafe.Coerce.unsafeCoerce False :: Maybe ()) 02:00:49 Nothing 02:00:51 !haskell print (Unsafe.Coerce.unsafeCoerce True :: Maybe ()) 02:00:53 ​./interps/ghc/runghc: line 7: 30718 Segmentation fault ghc -O2 -e "`cat $1`" 2> /dev/null 02:01:08 oh wow, this code is /old/ 02:01:16 anyone here recognise pre-standard C++? 02:01:24 ok, who's the spy :D <-- it was in today's haskell weekly news 02:01:25 yikes 02:01:30 oerjan: heh 02:01:37 at least, it appears to be ifdeffed between pre-standard C++ and nonidiomatic standard C++ 02:01:37 Obviuosly the constructor for True takes no parameters while Just does take some, so it would try to access unallocated memory, I think. 02:01:48 oh no, my mouse is doing that thing again 02:01:58 I liked pre-standard C++, it was not yet insane 02:02:10 also, 02:02:11 hmm, what's the standard operator for vector+vector again? 02:02:11 .+.? 02:03:23 Do you know how to play Pasur or Scope? I know how to play these card games. I also know how to play (two variants of) Scopone Scientifico, maybe I can invent Scopone Frobozzica. 02:03:33 oh, real wow, this code uses macros that use stringisation just so their arguments don't need to be double-quoted 02:03:45 meanwhile, attempting to pastebin it has frozen Firefox 02:03:54 I'm waiting for Firefox to unfreeze so I can show you 02:03:57 or maybe I'll just use Sprunge 02:03:59 Then use sprunge 02:04:11 I always use sprunge. 02:04:26 Sprunge does not require a web browser to work properly. 02:04:27 -!- edwardk has joined. 02:04:45 ANOTHER ONE 02:04:52 Which means it can be accessed without requiring loading the web browser program. 02:04:57 wow, pastie has also doubled all the newlines 02:05:07 I think because it's so old it uses \r\n line-endings 02:05:10 i haven't wandered out of my native #haskell in a while, but i'm not THAT much of a stranger =P 02:05:12 edwardk: ok, who is responsible :D 02:05:30 elliott: kmc talking about currywurst 02:05:31 (it also has a "C/C++" highlighting option, which is an appropriate description of the language the interp is actually written in) 02:05:43 zzo38 (and other people interested in Overload): http://pastie.org/private/9a3ws8d7h71xdadmv4aqfg 02:05:45 wtf is currywurst 02:06:04 Now I have to load the web browser program, but, OK 02:06:07 ais523: I don't read double-spaced code 02:06:20 apparently something that kmc likes to eat 02:06:27 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 02:06:29 Why is it double spaced? 02:06:35 because it uses \r\n newlines 02:07:10 Oops it got cut off 02:07:23 http://sprunge.us/hMUA?cpp seems to be singlespaced 02:07:29 so you can read that instead 02:09:19 I have a file of poker variants including: Draw-Stud Poker, Crap Poker, Bug Poker, Janken Poker, Baccarat Poker, Leg Poker, Dynamic Poker, Pokemon Card Poker, Pokino, Uncyclopedian Poker, Dungeon Poker, Steamship Poker, etc 02:12:00 wow, my computer ran out of memory at 32K of heap? that program must be old 02:12:08 To play Scope: You need a deck of forty cards, consisting of numbers one to ten of each of four suits. One suit is money. Give three cards to each player and four cards on the floor. 02:12:50 -!- augur has joined. 02:14:16 On your turn, select one card from your hand and play that card. If it is the same rank as one of the cards on the floor, you *must* take that one, and you put both cards in your score pile. (If there are multiples of that rank, you can select which one you want.) Otherwise, you can either leave it on the floor, or take that card together with any number of cards from the floor that add up to the card in your hand (for example, if you play 7 yo 02:14:43 If you played the card resulting in no cards on the floor, you make a scope and immediately earn one point. 02:14:46 zzo38: the line was cut off, at "play 7 yo" 02:15:04 u can get 4 and 3) 02:15:35 If both players have no cards in hand, deal three cards to each player again. The last card played in the entire game does not make a scope even if it picks up everything. 02:15:36 elliott: zzo38: for a hint of what Underload is like, look at "EnsureUncar", its purpose is to ensure that a particular list is the first element of another list 02:15:43 as in, of some other list 02:15:48 "Underload" 02:15:52 or, actually, I think any element of some other list 02:15:54 and, right, Overload 02:16:04 I don't type Overload's name much, my fingers were confused 02:16:15 After all cards are played, if any cards remain on the floor, whoever took cards into their scoring pile last takes all the remaining cards on the floor. 02:16:48 And then you count points. If you have more cards than opponent you get 1 point. If you have more money than opponent you get 1 point. If you have the seven of money then you get 1 point. If you make premere you get 1 point. 02:16:49 hmm, the data structure Overload uses doesn't have a name 02:16:50 oh my god, -Wall is complaining about the horrific function 02:16:55 I think I'll call it "the quadruply linked list" 02:17:02 elliott: in Overload? or in your code? 02:17:09 my code 02:17:30 I hate to think what -Wall's reaction would be to that code 02:17:36 To figure out the premere, each player reveals one card of each suit, of the highest ranking card. For the purpose of premere, the cards rank in this order (from highest to lowest): 7, 6, 1, 5, 4, 3, 2, 10, 9, 8. 02:17:37 although at least it /compiles/ with an old version of g++ 02:17:41 it's really horribly written 02:18:05 (I don't know why the cards are ranked like this; I did not invent this game.) 02:18:08 oh, I just figured out what // wmw-dependent means 02:18:12 I think it means "what means what" 02:18:28 Match is played up to eleven points. 02:18:28 #define OVCMD(a) InsBefore(&ITOS, new TListEl("(" #a ")",1),1); goto eval 02:18:49 Now do you know how to play this game? 02:19:07 oh good, for a moment I thought that code was literally replacing abbreviations with their expansions in the actual code, but it's saner than that 02:19:30 (in Underload, if you do this you don't notice, as it happens only as they're executing; in Overload you can go and look back at previously executed code using pointers) 02:20:34 and , is possibly the most Overloady instruction of all; it returns a pointer to itself 02:20:40 as in, to the , operation 02:21:15 I suppose gnu C has the equivalent "a: void* p = &&a;", which is as close as you can get in any other lang 02:22:11 I think LLVM can point to labels, although they can only be used for indirect branch instructions, and only in the same function 02:22:57 in Overload, you used that sort of trick to, say, get a pointer to the IP, then move it to the end of the current function to get the return address, and follow that 02:25:21 I invented an instruction set and computer system on a sheet of paper. 02:26:35 It does have an instruction which can save a pointer to the immediately following instruction into a register: MOV A P 02:28:39 !haskell map Unsafe.Coerce.unsafeCoerce [[1,2],[3,4,5],[6,7,8,9]] :: [Maybe Integer] 02:28:41 ​[Just 1,Just 3,Just 6] 02:29:58 !haskell map Unsafe.Coerce.unsafeCoerce [[1,2],[3,4,5],[6,7,8,9],[]] :: [Maybe Integer] 02:30:01 ​[Just 1,Just 3,Just 6,Nothing] 02:30:31 oerjan: Can you guess that? I think it is probably possible to do so. In fact that seems a possible usefulness. It should be written as a function not using unsafeCoerce and then optimized into unsafeCoerce (use a RULES pragma if the compiler cannot do it by itself) 02:31:10 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Quit: Reconnecting). 02:31:15 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 02:31:15 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Changing host). 02:31:15 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 02:31:29 :t toJust 02:31:30 Not in scope: `toJust' 02:31:34 lulz 02:31:44 @hoogle [a] -> Maybe a 02:31:45 Data.Maybe listToMaybe :: [a] -> Maybe a 02:31:45 Data.List find :: (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> Maybe a 02:31:45 Prelude head :: [a] -> a 02:32:10 > map listToMaybe [[1,2],[3,4,5],[6,7,8,9],[]] 02:32:11 [Just 1,Just 3,Just 6,Nothing] 02:32:26 I think I can understand why unsafeCoerce does that on those operations. 02:32:29 @src listToMaybe 02:32:30 listToMaybe [] = Nothing 02:32:30 listToMaybe (a:_) = Just a 02:32:40 zzo38: yes, think of it as a C-style cast. 02:32:50 CakeProphet: Yes it is what I thought of. 02:32:53 thinking of it as a C-style cast does not fully explain why it works for isJust. 02:32:53 and then imagine what the internal representations of those data types might look like. 02:32:59 you have to understand the pointer tagging GHC does. 02:33:01 it's more like a C++ reinterpret_cast than a C cast 02:33:02 -!- preflex has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 02:33:10 because C's casts can alter bitwise representation too 02:33:14 e.g. casting int to double 02:33:27 kmc: But it is a pointer cast. 02:33:34 sure you can think of it that way 02:33:40 GHC's unsafeCoerce is always a no-op at runtime 02:33:54 it just tells the typechecker to fuck off in the most unsubtle way possible 02:34:23 Can GHC optimize other operations into unsafeCoerce if you wrote them in a way which it can do so? 02:34:52 wrapping/unwrapping a newtype is also a no-op at runtime 02:35:11 Yes, I know that too. 02:35:43 zzo38: you could write such optimizations via RULE, of course. 02:36:15 CakeProphet: Yes, it is what I am thinking of; you could do that. What I mean is if it can do it by itself. If it cannot, then you should use rule pragmas. 02:36:29 right, I understood, my response just wasn't helpful. heh 02:37:13 Other than rule pragmas, the only other thing I think you should ever use unsafeCoerce for is when using FFI codes. 02:37:49 !haskell Control.Monad.filterM Unsafe.Coerce.unsafeCoerce [[1,2],[3,4],[5,6]] :: [[Integer]] 02:38:20 forgot to print. ;) 02:38:34 no it does that 02:38:39 ah. 02:38:45 but it was an error 02:39:12 :t unsafeCoerce 02:39:13 Not in scope: `unsafeCoerce' 02:39:16 !haskell !import Control.Monad; import Unsafe.Coerce; main = print (filterM unsafeCoerce [[1,2],[3,4],[5,6]] :: [[Integer]]) 02:39:19 er 02:39:20 zzo38: i occasionally use it to add observable sharing 02:39:24 !haskell import Control.Monad; import Unsafe.Coerce; main = print (filterM unsafeCoerce [[1,2],[3,4],[5,6]] :: [[Integer]]) 02:39:27 well b = m Bool here 02:39:35 in unsafeCoerce :: a -> b 02:39:35 zzo38: where the type being discarded is provably irrelevant 02:39:48 !haskell import Control.Monad; import Unsafe.Coerce; main = print (filterM unsafeCoerce [[1,2],[3,4],[5,6]] :: [[Integer]]) 02:40:05 oops 02:40:24 foo (Left a) = Left a -- this case can be rewritten using an unsafeCoerce for instance 02:41:21 hmm, is it (*+*) or (.+.)... 02:41:25 > filterM (const [True]) [1,2,3] 02:41:26 [[1,2,3]] 02:41:51 oh hm 02:42:10 !haskell import Control.Monad; import Unsafe.Coerce; main = print (filterM (const . unsafeCoerce) [[1,2],[3,4],[5,6]] :: [[Integer]]) 02:42:39 04:43 =EgoBot> Execution of /tmp/input.24301 aborted due to compilation errors. 02:43:30 helpful 02:43:59 @hoogle .+. 02:44:00 No results found 02:44:03 @hoogle *+* 02:44:04 No results found 02:45:09 oh wait @hoogle has only a few packages 02:45:14 @hoogle fix 02:45:14 Data.Function fix :: (a -> a) -> a 02:45:14 Control.Monad.Fix fix :: (a -> a) -> a 02:45:14 module Control.Monad.Fix 02:45:20 * elliott tries hayoo 02:45:34 nothing found for (.+.) :-( 02:45:51 why don't you look up a vector package 02:46:14 Do you know about the BLISS programming language? It also has some stuff including macros that you do not find in others, maybe it can be combined with LLVM somehow to make something 02:46:44 oerjan: I tried 02:46:51 they all had alphabetical operations :( 02:46:57 huh 02:47:09 like mxm, mxv or whatever 02:47:11 ugly 02:47:28 haskellers who don't make up new operators whenever possible? impossible! 02:48:22 i love that y'all have a bot with unsafeCoerce 02:48:23 @define unsafeCoerce = fix ($) 02:48:28 i assume it's heavily sandboxed 02:48:30 @def unsafeCoerce = fix ($) 02:48:31 Maybe you meant: bf do let 02:48:37 @let unsafeCoerce = fix ($) 02:48:37 Defined. 02:48:53 > unsafeCoerce 1 :: Maybe Int 02:48:58 Fake unsafeCoerce! 02:48:59 @type fix id 02:48:59 * Lymee hides 02:49:00 forall a. a 02:49:08 thread killed 02:49:12 just assume the hypothesis and be done 02:49:20 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 02:49:20 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Changing host). 02:49:20 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 02:49:24 @type fix ($) 02:49:30 kmc, it's just the same lambdabot that's in #haskell 02:49:40 Sgeo: no... 02:49:46 Can you use unsafeCoerce for nefarious purposes? 02:49:48 elliott, wait what? 02:49:49 kmc: yeah Gregor worked hard on the sandboxing 02:49:52 it's EgoBot 02:49:53 kmc: It's heavily sandboxed, but HackEgo is more permissive 02:49:55 `run echo hi >q 02:49:59 No output. 02:50:00 `run cat q 02:50:02 cat: q: No such file or directory 02:50:04 `run cat q 02:50:05 argh 02:50:06 hi 02:50:08 (sometimes it has sync issues) 02:50:09 `rm q 02:50:10 No output. 02:50:12 `l 02:50:12 `ls 02:50:14 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: l: not found 02:50:15 babies \ bin \ bluhbluh \ canary \ env \ foo \ paste \ ps \ quine.pl \ quine2.pl \ quine3.pl \ quotes \ quotese \ tekst \ test.c \ tmp.tmp 02:50:18 `help 02:50:19 Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ 02:51:13 quotse? 02:51:23 `quote 02:51:26 483) btw i saw my first prostitute about a week ago 02:51:29 good quotes 02:51:35 (quote database is of questionable quality) 02:51:36 does it respond to PM? 02:51:46 yes, but it logs anything that changes the filesystem 02:51:50 hehe 02:51:55 and those can be reverted 02:52:02 the quote system is rather advanced: 02:52:06 `run ls bin/*quote* 02:52:09 bin/addquote \ bin/allquotes \ bin/delquote \ bin/pastenquotes \ bin/pastequotes \ bin/quote \ bin/quotes 02:52:21 `perl -v 02:52:24 ​\ This is perl, v5.10.0 built for x86_64-linux-gnu-thread-multi \ \ Copyright 1987-2007, Larry Wall \ \ Perl may be copied only under the terms of either the Artistic License or the \ GNU General Public License, which may be found in the Perl 5 source kit. \ \ Complete documentation for Perl, including FAQ lists, should be 02:52:34 `run cat /dev/urandom | perl 02:52:36 Unrecognized character \xC7 in column 1 at - line 1. 02:52:39 * Lymee hides 02:52:48 `cat /dev/urandom 02:52:50 ​.݀Bgo-:h6ڵsU.b..7.R.܄.l..򋦋gmTdv+dlR5RPsWwiyԼN..l;BrjA_.^.y9Y<(-.Ñu{p.gJ*..a#-n\Y@鹜pP6e.U.vV.5|P9.?++~W>`ҌoL.ZI\m..qǎ\3e.d3.,..zs-h.. 02:53:00 kmc: mauke: it's based on UMLBox, fwiw: https://bitbucket.org/GregorR/umlbox/overview; previously it was based on the (Debian-specific) plash 02:53:11 (it's Gregor's) 02:53:21 cool 02:53:36 -!- lambdabot has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 02:53:38 `cat /dev/random 02:53:48 `translateto no also, it has limited internet access 02:53:51 `hexdump -C /dev/urandom 02:53:53 hexdump: invalid option -- \ usage: hexdump [-bcCdovx] [-e fmt] [-f fmt_file] [-n length] \ [-s skip] [file ...] \ hd [-bcdovx] [-e fmt] [-f fmt_file] [-n length] \ [-s skip] [file ...] 02:53:55 Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/json", line 4, in \ data = json.loads(sys.stdin.read().decode('utf-8')) \ File "/opt/python27/lib/python2.7/json/__init__.py", line 310, in loads \ return _default_decoder.decode(s) \ File "/opt/python27/lib/python2.7/json/decoder.py", line 346, 02:53:57 kmc: you need `run for multiple arugments 02:53:59 `run hexdump -C /dev/urandom 02:54:01 *nod* 02:54:01 00000000 5c 50 2b 17 29 6c be e8 d0 15 1e 99 26 a6 e0 a1 |\P+.)l......&...| \ 00000010 7c 54 c2 93 eb a1 59 b2 ea 62 50 27 e1 99 63 d2 ||T....Y..bP'..c.| \ 00000020 03 82 5a 43 8b dc 0c 61 ec 10 ba 82 ff 85 15 28 |..ZC...a.......(| \ 00000030 44 89 38 a4 ac 20 25 fd c0 13 7f 20 80 f4 86 0b |D.8.. %.... ....| \ 00000040 02:54:07 Gregor: translation is broken again :P 02:54:10 No output. 02:54:12 fixed a bug in ploki's halting detector :-) 02:54:12 `translateto sv also, it has limited internet access 02:54:15 Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/json", line 4, in \ data = json.loads(sys.stdin.read().decode('utf-8')) \ File "/opt/python27/lib/python2.7/json/__init__.py", line 310, in loads \ return _default_decoder.decode(s) \ File "/opt/python27/lib/python2.7/json/decoder.py", line 346, 02:54:57 `translateto hu also, it has limited internet access 02:55:00 Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/json", line 4, in \ data = json.loads(sys.stdin.read().decode('utf-8')) \ File "/opt/python27/lib/python2.7/json/__init__.py", line 310, in loads \ return _default_decoder.decode(s) \ File "/opt/python27/lib/python2.7/json/decoder.py", line 346, 02:55:03 :| 02:55:06 `translateto la also, it has limited internet access 02:55:09 Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/json", line 5, in \ print eval(sys.argv[1]).encode('utf-8') \ File "", line 1, in \ TypeError: 'NoneType' object is not subscriptable 02:55:14 fuck you 03:00:01 ...wait, Python sets argv to None ? 03:00:06 WHY 03:00:41 oh wait eval. 03:00:48 could be something else then. 03:04:30 -!- kmc has quit (Quit: Leaving). 03:04:46 hmm, synonyms of go as in "go west"? 03:04:49 that aren't head 03:04:51 face? 03:04:51 travel? 03:05:00 move? 03:05:06 there's no movement involved 03:05:10 it's about which direction you're facing 03:05:14 oh, right, "go" is ambiguous, there 03:05:16 turn 03:05:16 "aim" in that case 03:05:28 Sgeo: no, you turn 03:05:34 you don't turn 03:05:41 ais523: hmm, I think I prefer face 03:05:50 actually, aim is nicer 03:05:54 setDelta works, but is boring :) 03:06:03 depends what this is for, and you hadn't explained until that line 03:06:05 *depends on 03:06:33 right 03:06:36 it's go as in funge 03:07:13 elliott: what are we talking about exactly? 03:07:15 sounds interesting. 03:07:19 funge 03:07:56 -98 particularly? -108? 03:08:07 I have make up new operator in Haskell when it seems useful to do so, but not always. 03:08:18 ok 03:08:37 Such as the (.::) operator 03:08:46 what does (.::) do 03:09:02 Defined as: (.::) = (.) . (.) . (.); infixr 9 .::; 03:09:31 I needed it once in my implementation of Constantinople. 03:09:53 :t (.) . (.) . (.) 03:10:01 Grah 03:10:07 "infixr 9 .::;" took me a while to mentally parse 03:10:16 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:10:21 now I'm trying to work out what .:: even does 03:10:35 argh, it'll type differently due to the infixr, won't it :/ 03:10:37 -98 particularly? -108? 03:10:39 latter is not a real language 03:10:41 @unpl (.) . (.) . (.) 03:10:44 Sgeo: no? 03:10:55 elliott: you might be trying to interpret it in an attempt to make it into a real language 03:10:56 it looks like composition but the second operand takes three arguments 03:11:04 hey, where'd lambdabot go? 03:11:13 Does infixr cause it to type differently? 03:11:19 [Error] lambdabot: No such nick/channel. 03:11:21 Is there a difference between (.) . ((.) . (.)) and ((.) . (.)) . (.) 03:11:28 monqy: Yes that is what I used it for 03:11:33 I don't think so, composing is associative 03:11:41 ais523: I wish cpressey finished his revision to Funges but Vorpal ruined everything :( 03:11:43 monqy: that was incredibly well worked out 03:11:55 elliott: if ESO was still going, we could fix it 03:12:15 I didn't feel like figuring it out myself so I politely asked ghci to give me its type signature 03:12:15 but it didn't seem to work, as I was interested in standardising languages, and you and Vorpal were interested in how to best format the specs 03:12:21 heh 03:12:24 I put infixr 9 to make it the same fixity as the normal composition operator 03:12:38 @unpl (.) . ((.) . (.)) 03:12:43 @unpl ((.) . (.)) . (.) 03:12:48 but if I stared at it long enough I think I could have done it 03:12:55 (.) . (.) . (.) :: (b -> c) -> (a -> a1 -> a2 -> b) -> a -> a1 -> a2 -> c 03:13:03 yep, that's a giveaway 03:13:27 now I'm trying to work out why it does that 03:13:27 Yes, . is an associative operator it is one of the category laws. The other one is id 03:14:04 The monad laws are the same if you use <=< and return in place of . and id 03:20:03 foldl' (\m' ins -> Map.alter (maybe Nothing (\(_:xs) -> if null xs then Nothing else Just xs)) 03:20:03 ins m') 03:20:03 m (fpHandles ident) 03:20:03 wha. 03:20:03 t 03:21:31 what is that 03:23:24 a loop that modifies a map m 03:23:43 for each key in fpHandles ident it drops the first element of the corresponding list 03:25:19 !haskell :t maybe Nothing 03:25:21 maybe Nothing :: (a1 -> Maybe a) -> Maybe a1 -> Maybe a 03:25:50 aka =<< 03:26:45 padTake _ 0 _ = [] 03:26:46 padTake fill n [] = fill : padTake fill (n-1) [] 03:26:46 padTake fill n (x:xs) = x : padTake fill (n-1) xs 03:26:46 I don't even know what some of this is 03:26:46 oerjan: oh thanks 03:26:55 omg maybe Nothing is a really nice =<< 03:26:58 implementation I mean 03:27:03 :t M.alter (\mvs -> do _ : vs <- mvs; return vs) 03:27:07 but um 03:27:14 !haskell :t M.alter (\mvs -> do _ : vs <- mvs; return vs) 03:27:19 oerjan: (>>= f) sure is a weird way to write that :D 03:28:04 mauke: EgoBot doesn't have predefined imports 03:28:16 !haskell :t Data.Map.alter (\mvs -> do _ : vs <- mvs; return vs) 03:28:18 Data.Map.alter (\mvs -> do _ : vs <- mvs; return vs) :: (Ord k) => 03:28:29 "good" job 03:28:37 mauke: the rest is sent in DCC 03:28:43 padTake? so if it reaches the end of the victim list it fills the rest of the result with fill rather than cutting off? 03:28:45 hahaha, wtf 03:29:08 egobot's line-breaking is... not universally liked 03:29:18 did you mean: fucking stupid 03:30:09 if null xs then Nothing else Just xs = guard (null xs) >> Just xs, i think 03:30:16 er wait 03:30:29 backwards test 03:30:36 mauke: well it lets you receive the output of programs that output a lot, and in clients that automatically accept dcc chats it works ok 03:30:42 better than rate-limiting, at least, in that case 03:30:51 mauke: egobot can take urls too, so it's possible to run complex stuff with it 03:31:04 `which ghci 03:31:06 ​/opt/ghc/bin/ghci 03:31:16 elliott: how is that better than rate limiting? 03:31:22 given that you have to do rate limiting anyway 03:31:26 `run ghci -e ':t Data.Map.alter (\mvs -> do _ : vs <- mvs; return vs) 03:31:28 sh: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ sh: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file 03:31:28 mauke: no you don't, not for dcc chat 03:31:34 `run ghci -e ':t Data.Map.alter (\mvs -> do _ : vs <- mvs; return vs)' 03:31:37 elliott: no, but for the rest of the bot 03:31:37 ghc: on the commandline: cannot use `--interactive' with `-e' \ Usage: For basic information, try the `--help' option. 03:31:39 waiting minutes to get fifty lines of output or errors is annoying 03:31:51 `run ghc -e ':t Data.Map.alter (\mvs -> do _ : vs <- mvs; return vs)' 03:31:55 i don't like EgoBot's solution, i'm just devil's avocadoing :) 03:31:56 ​: can't load .so/.DLL for: libgmp.so (libgmp.so: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory) 03:32:02 oerjan: hackego ghc doesn't work yet 03:32:03 gah 03:32:07 oh 03:33:06 hmm, making my fingerprint scheme work with -Werror will be rather tricky 03:33:37 why do they generate warnings? and can you fix them with insane workarounds? 03:33:52 Shiro/Fingerprints/MODU.hs:17:1: 03:33:52 Warning: Pattern match(es) are non-exhaustive 03:33:52 In an equation for `run': 03:33:52 Patterns not matched: 03:33:52 _ A 03:33:54 _ B 03:33:55 an IOCCC entry I've been sitting on waiting for the IOCCC to actually happen generates only three warnings in gcc and they're all incorrect 03:33:56 _ C 03:33:57 _ D 03:33:59 even though it /should/ generate a lot more 03:34:00 ... 03:34:02 the whole point is that you specify what instructions you handle so that you never get called with an instruction you can't handle :) 03:34:11 adding an extra line to just fail boringly to each fingerprint is really annoying 03:34:22 what i really want is some kind of type-level restriction of the fingerprint instructions but aargh 03:34:28 like 03:34:34 elliott: this sounds like the sort of thing Anarchy is designed for (will be designed for, when I get round to designing it) 03:34:43 run :: (IsInstructions ins (A :+: B :+: C :+: Nil)) => ins -> Shiro () 03:34:45 but um 03:34:47 that's horrific 03:34:50 btw padTake fill n l = take n $ l ++ repeat fill 03:34:50 my solution to that problem was to invent a language :) 03:34:52 and I'm not sure it'd work anyway 03:35:01 oerjan: thanks 03:35:45 hmmm 03:35:53 I guess I could use a gadt 03:38:54 class Elem x xs 03:38:55 instance Elem x (x :- xs) 03:38:55 instance (Elem x xs) => Elem x (y :- xs) 03:38:58 turns out, this _isn't_ a good instance :) 03:39:11 I think I need a ~/~ 03:39:16 or, hmm 03:39:24 I suppose HList has solved this 03:43:01 Heterogeneous List? 03:43:08 yes. 03:43:09 oerjan: halp 03:43:32 elliott, is Active Oberon a good language 03:43:34 ? 03:43:45 * Sgeo feels like he's going to be shot 03:44:04 Oberon is a bad language but an interesting one. 03:44:24 wat 03:45:11 Hmm. What's bad about it, and what's interesting about it? 03:45:23 oerjan: i'm trying to define this FPIns type but I can't manage it :( 03:45:38 what type 03:45:49 basically, I want, for letter=A,B,C, letter :: FPIns xs iff xs contains the type letter 03:45:56 where xs is a list of the form (a :- b :- ... :- xs) 03:45:57 i.e. 03:46:04 A :: FPIns (A :- B :- Nil) 03:46:10 A :: FPIns (B :- A :- Nil) 03:46:12 A :: FPIns (A :- Nil) 03:46:13 etc. 03:46:23 but A :/: FPIns (B :- Nil) 03:46:41 ah. well i suspect the problem is you need to check for two types _not_ being equal in that. 03:46:45 indeed 03:46:53 iirc someone did that on stack overflow... 03:47:01 oerjan: what if I required the list to be in order? 03:47:05 i.e., (B :- A :- Nil) is not ok 03:47:08 where A < B < C 03:47:15 oerjan: not equal as in cannot be equal, or as in aren't known to be identical? 03:47:21 hmm, I think I could easily do that, with a _lot_ of boilerplate code 03:47:27 in fact, I could do it out of order too 03:47:32 with a _lot_ of boilerplate 03:47:37 ais523: ghc does not give a way to distinguish those, i think 03:47:55 ah, OK, even though they're distinguishable concepts 03:48:18 as in, the basic type class lookup contains _no_ not-equal checks 03:48:44 oerjan: http://sprunge.us/UaaA behold my solution that will scale perfectly to the real A-Z situation 03:48:45 ...well, there _are_ overlapping instances. 03:49:16 omg it works :D 03:49:24 oerjan: not there, there aren't? 03:49:29 or are you talking to ais523 03:49:52 oerjan: oh my god 03:49:53 guess what 03:49:56 i defined all this infrastructure 03:49:58 test :: FPIns (C :- A :- Nil) -> IO () 03:49:59 test A = return () 03:49:59 test C = return () 03:50:03 will warns about a non-exhaustive pattern match 03:50:11 IM GOING TO RIP OUT GHC'S GUTS AND REPLACE THEM WITH DEATH 03:50:40 ... what the flying eff is Intel AppUp? 03:50:57 elliott: well yes. but i also had that method in mind, the point is that it requires you to check for equality with whatever it is to prove it is not any of the other options 03:51:17 Gregor: an app store, it looks like 03:51:19 for WINDOZE 03:51:27 Gregor: a Google search gives no conclusive results, but implies that it's some sort of application store 03:51:38 dear Intel: stop making things that aren't processors; love, everyone 03:51:45 elliott: How would that help? How can you replace it with death it does not seem you would write a program 03:51:53 New Legends Announced \ Five new developers have become Legends of the Intel AppUp developer program. Read their inspiring stories! 03:52:23 elliott: s/ that aren't.*// 03:52:26 looking at it, it appears to be an appstore combined with a cross-platform framework for writing mobile/tablet apps, that can also end up on non-mobile platforms 03:52:32 elliott: you might be able to define IsEq t1 t2 typeBool and use it as a subroutine 03:52:40 it has an SDK with C and C++ bindings 03:52:50 Gregor: Mr. Ex Intel Employee 03:52:51 then only that one needs to contain all the matches 03:52:55 "I SAW THE HORRORS" 03:52:58 "OH, GOD, I SAW THE HORRORS" 03:53:09 hm wait does that actually help 03:53:17 elliott: All my systems are still Intel too :P 03:53:21 oerjan: um there is a more important problem, i.e. this strategy _does not work_ 03:53:29 well, that too :P 03:53:30 oerjan: because GHC's exhaustive pattern detector is too fucking stupid 03:53:47 Gregor: Well, AMD don't exactly make the most amazing processors :P 03:54:17 Gregor: http://appdeveloper.intel.com/en-us/article/frequently-asked-questions is their FAQ, it seems to explain what they're doing, at least 03:54:38 the funny thing is, it appears to be run by the sort of managers who use the word "rockstar" 03:54:52 "Developers who participate in the Intel AppUp Developer Program earn reputation. Developers earn points and advance in degrees of the Intel® Black Belt Software Developer Program. For more information on the reputation and Intel Black Belt Software Developer Program, see the Intel Black Belt Software Developer Program FAQs." 03:55:08 ais523: nice 03:55:12 Ohhhh, I see, it's some retarded pseudopromotion for netbooks and such made byt hem. 03:55:22 s/byt hem/with their processors/ 03:55:28 dear Intel: stop making things that aren't processors; love, everyone <-- what if those were microcode apps. 03:55:34 Gregor: an SDK for developing applications for them, too, I think 03:55:41 the SDK seems to be the only actual product there 03:55:48 ais523: Which consists, I assume, of ICC :P 03:55:49 oerjan: brilliant 03:55:51 I wish everyone responsible for this "trendy epic rockstar lolcode FAIL ruby on rails" trend would just go into some field that isn't already as terrible as it can get 03:56:04 oerjan: so fast 03:56:33 atm it only seems to work on MeeGo and Windows 03:56:37 that's a fun choice of platforms 03:57:02 only available for QNX and RiscOS 03:57:20 wow, it has an incredibly short API 03:57:23 -!- MDude has changed nick to MSleep. 03:57:32 which entirely consists of determining whether the application is authorized to run 03:57:48 -!- azaq23 has joined. 03:57:50 therefore, it's /actually/ some sort of DRM scheme that only works on closed platforms where you can't just patch the checks out 03:58:25 this just makes me even more confused as to what it is 03:58:42 I wish [...] would just go into some field that isn't already as terrible as it can get <-- wait why, then they'd be able to do _more_ damage 03:58:51 "In-app advertising, subscriptions, and links to external marketplaces for in-app purchases are permitted for a limited time. We understand that these features are important to you and are not yet available in the SDK. Until they become available, you are free to implement them on your own. As we roll these features into the SDK, we will then require that they be implemented through the SDK." 03:59:16 oerjan: yes, but it wouldn't affect _me_ 03:59:23 I don't keep up on the latest blacksmith news 03:59:37 Gregor: so it's /actually/ an app store that has its own DRM scheme 03:59:42 I think, at least 03:59:59 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 04:01:12 Do you know about the Underhanded C Contest? 04:01:19 zzo38: yes, and have even submitted to it 04:01:39 my submission was a bit too obvious, though, touching every page of the memory it allocated "to check that it works" 04:02:01 turns out that implementing 4GiB of memory on Linux is insufficiently slow unless you do that 04:02:35 (I was doing the OS benchmarking thing, trying to exploit the fact that allocating the entire addressible memory space and then pagefaulting it all is reasonably quick on a 16-bit system but not on a 32-bit system) 04:06:42 did the contest just die 2 years ago? 04:07:01 the IOCCC died a while ago 04:07:08 at least, it went into NetHack devteam mode 04:07:17 doing nothing but the occasional news entry about how they were doing something, and replying to queries 04:07:19 I mean the underhanded C contest 04:07:43 because I sent them an entry, and then nothing happened and the site stopped updating 04:07:51 the most recent news entry in the IOCCC is from 30 april 2010, saying that there would be something new on 15 may 2010, but there wasn't 04:07:58 mauke: possibly Xcott's just got a job, or something 04:08:04 that's the issue with a competition run by one person 04:08:19 Some of their codes I tried to notice what is wrong, I noticed what is wrong not too difficulty. The third place in 2008 I noticed very easily. The first place (John Meacham) I looked and found easily, the data that is supposed to be deleted it looks like it will write 000 if it was originally 255. 04:08:25 oh, I know what I could do! I could map FPInses to functions instead 04:08:32 in fact, that would work perfectly, and let me give nice names to each fp instruction 04:08:35 Now I looked at the answer and in fact that is correct. 04:08:41 now to add these lines to a comment in a file and promptly forget about them 04:09:05 These codes are not difficult to understand if you can understand C programming. 04:11:30 BAD: } doesn't reset storage offset 04:11:31 ummm 04:11:34 my style fixes broke my program 04:11:49 zzo38: I think the idea is just to make it look like a mistake 04:12:07 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 04:12:20 "current" task: http://underhanded.xcott.com/?p=18 04:12:23 my solution: http://mauke.dyndns.org/stuff/c/underhanded/lug.c 04:12:58 ok this is utterly bizarre 04:15:49 mauke: there's a lot of code there to look through 04:16:26 I blame it on the complexity of the task 04:16:28 * elliott is immediately sceptical of COUNTOF and DEFSTRUCT 04:16:39 those are "standard" macros in my code 04:16:40 also of xmalloc, what is that even about :) 04:16:51 mauke: sure, you say that :P 04:16:54 a malloc wrapper that checks for errors 04:17:09 it's not a malloc wrapper, it has a different signature 04:17:10 it's more like calloc 04:17:21 yes, because calloc's interface is superior 04:17:26 it still wraps malloc 04:17:31 OR MORE EXPLOITABLE???? 04:17:40 no 04:17:44 admittedly, I can't actually find any bugs :) 04:17:50 all paths that don't abort() lead to return malloc(n * m) 04:18:09 in a UCC entry, if I had no malicious code in a malloc wrapper, I'd just use malloc directly 04:18:11 -!- edwardk has left ("Leaving..."). 04:18:47 there's an obvious = vs. == mixup in the for loop in insert() 04:19:03 I haven't figured out its effects yet, but I suspect that's the malicious part 04:19:14 you mean (p = *pp)? 04:19:37 that's obviously deliberate 04:19:37 yep 04:19:45 well yes, the paren indicates that 04:19:50 why is that in the test part of a for loop? 04:19:51 p isn't initialized otherwise, and ... yeah 04:20:10 perhaps it should be before the first semicolon, rather than after, in correct code 04:20:25 no, pp is updated in the loop 04:20:31 I just want a shorter name for *pp 04:21:08 I don't know all the functions that are used in that lug.c program 04:21:13 at least, if that's a crazy synonym for "for (;p;pp = &p->next,p=*pp)" and it's /not/ malicious, why are you writing crazy code like that? 04:21:42 ip <- gets currentIP 04:21:43 let Ray pos delta = ray ip 04:21:43 let (ox,oy) = storageOffset ip 04:21:43 modifySOSS $ (oy:) . (ox:) 04:21:43 modifyCurrentIP $ const ip{ storageOffset = pos .+. delta } 04:21:43 ais523: in your version p is uninitialized 04:21:43 heh, what a subtle bug 04:21:48 ais523: I'd call that crazy 04:21:56 (hint: the stack-stack is part of the IP) 04:21:57 mauke: well, initialize it at the start 04:21:58 zzo38: what don't you know? 04:22:01 as well 04:22:08 the use of p at all there is a little suspect 04:22:09 ais523: that duplicates p = *pp for no reason 04:22:28 for the reason of not putting the assignment in the test part of a for loop? 04:22:38 actually, p=*pp would be best used in the loop body 04:22:38 ais523: yes, how is that a good thing? 04:22:41 and *pp as the condition 04:22:50 It has functions (defined externally) that I have never used or seen before 04:22:50 ais523: that would duplicate *pp for no good reason 04:22:57 zzo38: which ones? 04:22:58 mauke: side effects on the test part of a for loop is a mad thing to do 04:23:02 ais523: wrong 04:23:09 saving two characters is not a good reason to do it 04:23:18 K&R disagree 04:23:41 they did it in while loops, but in for loops there are perfectly good other places to put it 04:23:48 wrong 04:24:04 mauke: you realise the goal is to write code that nobody can fault you about? :P 04:24:07 what I really want is "load variables; test condition; loop body; repeat" 04:24:20 elliott: I didn't realize people had such crazy ideas about "good" code 04:24:23 mauke: and that's what a for loop has? 04:24:37 mauke: reading code with side-effects in the test of a for loop makes me stare at it for minutes working out exactly when it runs 04:24:43 ais523: it's almost what a while loop has if you merge the load/test parts 04:24:44 that's not the mark of good code, because it isn't easy to read 04:24:47 mauke: it's not exactly controversial that repeating a tiny statement is better than making a complicated for loop head 04:24:58 ais523: in this case I also need a "step" part, so that's where the for loop comes in 04:25:02 it's the sort of thing I'd expect in the IOCCC, not the UCC if meant to be non-deliberately-incorrect code! 04:25:13 elliott: p = *pp isn't complicated 04:25:23 mauke: no, it isn't; that's why repeating it doesn't matter 04:25:27 vs. complicating the for loop head 04:25:41 seriously, I don't see how this "complicates" anything 04:25:43 you use a similar idiom in drop_superseded 04:25:50 yeah 04:26:04 and I'm wondering if there's a shorter /and/ clearer way to write it 04:26:26 you have while ((p = *pp)) { /* ... */ *pp = p->next; free(p); } 04:28:08 I'd probably write it as p=*pp; while (p) { /* ... */ p2 = p->next; free(p); p = p2; } *pp = p; 04:28:18 actually, *pp = 0 at the end 04:28:32 ais523's is less clear than mauke's there 04:28:51 elliott: well, back in the days of K&R idiomatic would have been free(p); p = p->next; 04:28:54 but that's incorrect nowadays 04:29:00 heh 04:29:00 I tried to keep this as short and concise as possible 04:29:03 so you need a helper variable 04:29:07 where every part is simple and obviously correct 04:29:14 Such as ferror and regcomp, which I have not used, although I can guess what their function is. 04:29:33 mauke: we've been discussing it for 11 minutes, is that "simple and obviously correct"? 04:29:34 zzo38: ferror is standard C 04:29:39 zzo38: ferror is standard C 04:29:51 mauke: Yes I know it is, I have just simply not used it before. 04:29:53 ais523: maybe you're just not a very experienced C programmer 04:29:54 heh, and our nicks are the same number of pixels in this font so it even lined up 04:30:13 mauke: I actually taught C for a while; and I teach people not to pull tricks like that 04:30:27 actually, I fear it's the API of your function that's making it confusing 04:30:39 yeah, I have a bit of a history with C teachers 04:30:48 so does ais523 04:30:51 you take a pointer to a pointer, and what you do with it is to iterate on the pointed-to pointer itself, and then set the pointed-to pointer to NULL 04:30:54 I do not pay a lot of attention to security unless I am writing a program meant to be run suid or accessed remotely 04:30:56 tricks? 04:31:39 ais523: I'm destructively modifying a linked list 04:31:42 at least you're using C not C++ so the side-effect is marked, but it's a side effect that I don't get why it's necessary at all; nulling pointers when you free them isn't going to save you from bugs because if the code was buggy before, it'll /still/ crash 04:31:52 ais523: the alternative to taking a pointer-to-pointer is to take and return a pointer 04:31:56 and that's just evil 04:32:03 that's evil? 04:32:04 mauke: no, because you always set it to NUL 04:32:05 *NULL 04:32:12 But the John Meacham's code (and Linus Akesson's code) for the 2008 contest has something that is very obviously wrong to me even though I did not know what the contest was; I could tell it was dealing with PPM files just from reading the code. 04:32:16 so the caller knows that the value should become NULL 04:32:18 ais523: wait, where? 04:32:28 drop_superseded 04:32:41 *pp is always set to NULL when it exits, as it's the only way to drop out of the loop 04:32:54 and if that isn't obvious, then perhaps even you were confused by your own code 04:33:00 -!- lambdabot has joined. 04:33:11 ais523: pp is modified in the loop 04:33:21 it may reach NULL naturally 04:33:31 mauke: but that doesn't matter, all that matters is the value at the end of the loop, which is always NULL 04:33:42 yes, because it has reached the end of the list 04:33:50 that doesn't mean the list was completely destroyed 04:33:53 so the fact that pp is modified in the loop is irrelevant 04:33:57 what 04:34:01 .wub 16 04:34:03 .wub 16 04:34:03 you could just set it to NULL afterwards and have the same effect 04:34:03 ais523, I think the point of nulling pointers before free is in case you accidentally use it again, at least it will _always_ be a crash, instead of sometimes by chance something bizarre 04:34:13 ais523: where am I setting *pp to NULL? 04:34:19 coppro: ... 04:34:30 Sgeo: glibc detects that kind of crap nowadays, IIRC 04:34:32 mauke: while((p = *pp)) { /* ... */ } is either an infinite loop or it sets *pp to NULL 04:34:44 elliott: it can't do so with a 100% success rate without leaking memory, that's provable 04:34:45 ais523: wrong 04:34:52 mauke: how is it not wrong 04:34:57 there are no break instructions in the /* ... */ 04:35:05 and no longjmps out of it either 04:35:10 Some people have told me my C codes were of the kind suitable for IOCCC but I don't think so. 04:35:12 so, the /only/ way the loop can end is if *pp is NULL 04:35:16 ais523 is obviously right here, without even looking at the code 04:35:18 ais523: correct 04:35:24 so, the loop sets *pp to NULL 04:35:25 ais523: that doesn't mean it's setting *pp to NULL 04:35:31 NO 04:35:42 either *pp is initially NULL or is set to NULL during the loop 04:35:46 wrong 04:35:51 yes, the loop only ends with *pp as NULL, and the loop is the last thing in the function 04:35:53 is everyone crazy now? 04:35:59 so the function sets *pp to NULL, always 04:36:02 no, but you might be if you keep insisting one is two 04:36:15 elliott: let me try to convince you first, you seem more sane 04:36:20 the value of *pp during the loop changes, but that only matters if it's inspected during the loop, and it doesn't 04:36:23 *and it isn't 04:36:43 oh, aha, there's an assignment to pp during the loop 04:36:49 which is even mindboggling 04:36:51 mauke: OK, but I'm not going to bother looking at the code; how can that loop terminate, under those conditions about the body that you agreed to, without *pp either initially being NULL or being set to NULL during the loop? 04:36:54 elliott: the loop condition is *pp. pp is modified in the loop. thus the loop may hit a point where *pp is already NULL without modifying *pp 04:36:55 so you're calling two different things pp 04:37:03 mauke: setting pp sets *pp 04:37:07 elliott: bullshit 04:37:19 and that's why you can make apparently self-contradictory statements, because you don't distinguish between the multiple possibilities for pp 04:37:22 your code sounds quite confusing, I'd have locked you up by now :) 04:37:32 Do *you* think my C codes are of the kind suitable for IOCCC???? I don't think so.... 04:37:47 ais523: I'm calling N different things pp 04:37:48 zzo38: probably not, good IOCCC code has to be written specifically for the IOCCC 04:37:51 ais523: I AM ITERATING OVER A LIST 04:38:14 Programmer suspected of espionage yells at FBI interviewer; jailed for life 04:38:20 also, ais523: pp is modified in the loop 04:38:27 OK, so you're iterating over a list and mutating it while iterating over it 04:38:38 ais523: I'm destructively modifying a linked list 04:38:39 and you're using pp as a pointer to the previous next, or the first element otherwise 04:38:54 I'm using pp as the address of the pointer to the current element 04:39:09 ais523: Well, yes. But I don't think my codes are obfuscated or anything, it seems clearly to me. There are sometimes a few strange things but I usually describe it if I think it is too strange 04:39:10 this is like linked list manipulation 101 04:39:34 mauke: it's a trick that I /occasionally/ see when mutating a linked list, in order to avoid specialcasing its start 04:39:40 and it's normally written more obviously in such cases 04:39:53 -!- fungot has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 04:39:59 it doesn't help that the common case is hidden inside an if statement, and the main body of the loop handles the rare case 04:40:18 ok, that's a point 04:40:28 -!- fizzie has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 04:40:34 I believe I wanted to get the common case out of the way first 04:40:49 if (whatever) ... continue; done 04:41:15 This code has nothing wrong with it to me but some people say it is wrong to do a lot of the stuff I do in this code http://repo.or.cz/w/TeXnicard.git/blob_plain/HEAD:/texnicard.w 04:41:42 (the alternative to using a pointer-to-pointer in the loop is two variables you have to keep in sync manually plus some code duplication) 04:41:45 zzo38: you forgot to use more-notation 04:42:21 elliott: For one thing, it is not a Haskell program. 04:42:29 well yes, that's the other problem. 04:42:31 I think I know where the bug likely is; I think there's an off-by-2 (or off-by-4) error in one of the calls to cap_equals, because the API you're using would make such errors really hard to notice 04:42:51 I don't think so. C is still a good programming language too. 04:43:15 LLVM would be very good (in fact, much better designed than C, I think) if there was a good macro system for it. 04:43:24 you're taking the addresses of array elements all the time, and that's a perfect opportunity to accidentally do that "twice" and take, say, the 6th element by taking the second then taking its fourth 04:43:30 But TeXnicard is going to continue to be a C program. 04:43:56 that would explain how field 6 becomes relevant even if it's not referred to by name 04:44:29 ais523: easy to disprove. I only use array indices in calls to cap_equals, and cap_equals doesn't index 04:44:33 (Although I plan to write one of the related programs in Haskell; that is, part of the program for automating game play could be written in Haskell) 04:44:35 ais523: therefore no double indexing occurs 04:44:46 mauke: yes, right 04:44:54 perhaps you should have slipped the bug in there, it'd have been well-hidden 04:44:58 you easily could have done 04:45:36 &m[2] in drop_superseded would have looked completely innocent 04:46:11 hmm, true. why didn't I think of that? 04:47:26 Are there any hidden malicious stuff in *my* program? (Unless I put it by accident I do not expect so.) 04:48:32 (Actually I wanted to compile natural language into Haskell and/or Dangelo) 04:49:23 mauke: as you can see, zzo38 is a gift to all of us 04:50:26 elliott: I ignore them 04:50:34 Don't be so sure... OF ANYTHING!!! 04:50:40 mauke: you're missing out 04:50:52 Don't be so sure... OF ANYTHING!!! 04:50:53 good advice 04:51:24 mauke: is it deliberate that your regex doesn't quite match the one in the question, btw? you can cause the optional comment to not match by omitting the whitespace at the start of the comment whilst having it all match, but I'm not sure if that has any effect on the program flow 04:51:35 and forgetting a space would look like a plausible error 04:51:45 that's one of the first things I noticed, but I didn't bring it up 04:52:03 what do you mean? 04:52:25 ([A-Z]{3})([[:space:]]+[^[:space:]].*)? is what you have 04:52:29 oh, then a $ 04:52:42 "any positive number of spaces, then anything that isn't a space, then any characters" is redundany 04:52:49 *redundant 04:53:01 or, hmm, is it? 04:53:10 I wanted to be explicit 04:53:29 it's definitely not what the question specified, "\s.*", which allows for a comment consisting entirely of whitespace 04:53:36 mauke: that's a bit ironic 04:54:33 ais523: correct. scan never checks if the regex actually succeeded, leaving old information in the capture buffers. this is triggered by trailing whitespace 04:54:37 you've found bug #1 04:54:47 (what, did you think there was only one hole?) 04:55:17 in the UCC, you should probably only have one, otherwise you give more space to find malicious behaviour 04:55:50 if they all look like plausible mistakes, some of them may survive a code review 04:55:56 If I fix haskell-src-exts to make some of the things I wanted to have in Haskell, including more-notation and a new kind of preprocessor with different macros (including running Haskell codes at tokenizer level), what would be called? 04:56:10 also, I'm not sure if it's deliberate that the check on whether to succeed in insert (on fields 2 and 4) is different from the one in drop_superseded (on field 2 only) 04:56:26 zzo38: zzo38skell-src-exts 04:56:46 ais523: if it's a bug, it's not deliberate 04:56:47 it looks wrong, especially because with insert removing duplicates, drop_superseded has no reason to exist at all 04:57:09 but I don't remember the exact rules of the task anymore 04:57:12 I'd have to reread it 04:58:11 elliott: That does not seem best name. Anyways it will be a full program rather than a library usable by other programs. It is written using unliterate layout style, so I will keep it that way when modifying it (although it is not the way I write my own programs) 04:58:27 ais523: I think the idea was that something like A -> B, B -> C followed by A -> X would have to override A -> B and drop B -> C 04:58:30 maybe 04:58:41 hmm, perhaps 04:58:54 it doesn't help that the task's unclear on what the intended behaviour is 05:00:36 I'll give up reading it for now, anyway, the task's too vague for me to work out whether certain bits of it are right or not 05:00:52 pop0gnirtsAsString is definitely the best function name I've ever created 05:00:57 apart from push0gnirtsAsString 05:01:15 elliott: recently, I was trying to think of a word starting with 0 05:01:20 and "0gnirts" was the only one that came to mind 05:01:25 "0gnirts" doesn't start with 0, it starts with '"' 05:01:32 but, 0-day? 05:01:38 well, the word was 0gnirts 05:01:45 and I put quotes round it because I was quoting it 05:01:51 and I didn't think of that one 05:01:53 but the word is actually "0gnirts" 05:01:57 well, OK 05:02:00 they're not called 0gnirtses, they're called "0gnirts"es 05:02:05 I pronounce it without the quotes 05:02:13 how do you pronounce quotes? 05:02:14 as o-gnerts 05:02:21 that's /why/ I pronounce it without the quotes 05:02:24 heh 05:02:56 ais523: hint: all of the bugs are in scan and main 05:03:02 (it's how you trigger a NetHack bug that only happens with over 1000 users) 05:03:11 ais523: wat 05:03:18 *over 9000 05:03:18 how does that work? 05:03:28 basically, overflow to the fifth digit of UIDs 05:03:54 meaning that you can confuse it between 10000gnirts parsed as 1000+0gnirts or 10000+gnirts 05:04:01 heh 05:04:14 the effect being that UID 1000 can mess with UID 10000's savegames 05:05:14 ?pl \f -> catchReflect $ pop0gnirtsAsString >>= ioFail . f 05:05:14 catchReflect . (pop0gnirtsAsString >>=) . (ioFail .) 05:05:18 no thanks 05:05:48 What does pop0gnirtsAsString means? 05:06:04 funge 05:08:05 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to Commodus. 05:08:30 zzo38: 0gnirts is the standard representation of strings in Befunge (and other Funges), and String is the standard representation of strings in Haskell 05:08:47 the function pops an 0gnirts off the Funge stack and converts it to a String 05:08:47 -!- Commodus has changed nick to copumpkin. 05:09:05 I should really make it use ByteStrings instead 05:09:14 actually, the current way might be faster because the stack is a [] 05:09:16 but I should fix that, too 05:11:18 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:12:21 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:12:24 What was the first Haskell program you wrote? 05:12:34 umm, I don't remember 05:12:36 I can't remember 05:12:37 probably something very simple 05:12:48 first real program might have been the unfinished underload compiler? dunno. 05:13:08 the first real Haskell program I wrote was an implementation of my theories about ICA to SCC type inference 05:13:20 ais523: What does that mean? 05:13:22 which I've since reimplemented in OCaml 05:13:33 -!- invariable has joined. 05:13:43 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 05:14:08 zzo38: ICA and SCC are two different type systems; ICA's type system is similar to Algol's (but a mathematically idealized version that also allows for concurrent execution), and SCC requires each variable to be accessed from finitely many functions at a time (with an explicit number bounding that) 05:14:10 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 05:14:52 so basically, it's counting bounds on concurrent uses of a variable 05:15:15 OK. 05:15:27 it boils down to simultaneous inequalities, in the end; I got a paper out of proving that those inequalities could always be solved with integers 05:16:29 First Haskell program I wrote is a compiler of esolang, too; but not Underload. 05:16:36 elliott: Did you use Template Haskell in that program? 05:16:48 zzo38: no 05:16:53 I tend to avoid TH 05:17:11 Do you dislike TH? 05:17:19 elliott: are Haskell templates more or less sane relative to Haskell than C++ templates are to C++? 05:17:26 s/are to/are relative to/ 05:17:45 zzo38: I don't dislike it so much as avoid it when it isn't absolutely necessary; it's very heavy, and functions are much nicer 05:17:54 plus, writing TH code is very difficult (compared to using it) 05:17:58 because of all the boilerplate 05:18:04 ais523: I would say yes 05:18:17 ais523: that comparison looks like a type error 05:18:24 TH is much more like Lisp macros 05:18:26 that wasn't intended to be a yes-or-no question, although I suppose that's one way to parse it 05:18:40 I assume that TH is saner than C++ templates, but OTOH Haskell is saner than C++ 05:18:53 I was wondering which comparison had a greater sanity difference 05:18:55 I think TH is just not as powerful as some proper macros could be, that is why I want to implement new one, that can be used in addition to TH. 05:18:59 mauke: you can compare differences in sanity 05:19:21 I'd say the embedding is a bit awkward but at least in TH the metalanguage is Haskell 05:19:35 that wins major sanity points over C++ templates 05:20:12 arguably, C++ templates form a better language than C++ itself 05:20:16 it's at least functional 05:20:26 and reasonably self-consistent and well-behaving 05:20:29 shame about the syntax 05:21:00 I wonder what templates are like in SPECS 05:21:25 Enhanced CWEB allows you to do metaprogramming in C (although it is interpreted C) 05:22:05 Constantinople compiler in Haskell uses Template Haskell codes. 05:22:26 @keal 05:22:27 Cale etc already pointed out Haskell is puny to nothing to emulate using my barrage of mathematic theories 05:23:15 -!- ive has joined. 05:24:03 -!- kmc has joined. 05:24:08 yay, all done, and things are slower than before 05:24:41 I like how I'm optimising a program that doesn't strictly work... feels like C 05:24:54 oh dear, has it gone over a thousand lines of code? 05:25:19 oh, wow, my SLOC have shrinked since earlier today 05:28:24 My program contains things that might be badly done because I have not written program in Haskell before, such as this: initialMem = MemList $ (MemList $ fix (MemZero :)) : fix (MemZero :); p_nand x y = Pointer undefined (liftA2 r_nand (mem_read x) (mem_read y)); transWrite w p x y = mem_write p (w x (mem_read p y)) y; 05:29:39 why the undefined? 05:30:08 Because a "nand" expression in Constantinople is read-only. The first parameter to the Pointer constructor is used for writing. 05:30:31 then you want a ROPointer and a Pointer being ROPointer + write 05:30:34 At least, I think it is read-only; if they want to change that, anyone can change this 05:30:47 or at least a Maybe field in Pointer so that you can handle read-only things without undefined 05:32:52 That is one idea. Thanks for opinion. But it seems to me that the simplest and reasonable way to do it is to simply not define the writing function for "nand" but otherwise use everything the same way. 05:33:46 zzo38: your types, as they are, do not correctly model the situation; so you are very likely to run into bugs you wouldn't otherwise 05:33:49 zzo38: fix (x :) = repeat x 05:34:00 oerjan: OK, thanks. I didn't know that. 05:34:03 zzo38: Haskell is all about defining the right types to model your situation, and then using them correctly; without that, you won't benefit much from its strengths at all 05:34:15 hmm, "fix (x:)" is actually shorter 05:34:26 no, same length 05:34:38 just uses narrower characters, so shorter in a proportional font 05:34:46 to paraquote larry, "the trick is to use haskell's strengths rather than its weaknesses" 05:35:31 hmm, are there any interesting Haskell "conducts", like one-liner Python? 05:35:46 "conduct"? 05:35:46 restrictions you put on yourself so you avoid using the language's strengths and have to be more creative? 05:35:57 oerjan: like in NetHack, a self-imposed restriction to make it more difficult 05:36:13 ais523: point-free style... WITH NO EXCEPTIONS 05:36:21 and no more than one level of parentheses, too 05:36:29 and no where clauses. or completely junk definitions. 05:36:31 beautiful 05:36:36 elliott: that's a rather lethal combination 05:36:37 "completely junk definitions"? 05:36:51 ais523: as in, definitions that don't have any generalness at all, and you're just using them to subvert the parentheses and where rules 05:36:55 obviously it's slightly subjective :P 05:36:59 also, how do you do a where clause in a pointfree program anyway 05:37:04 foo = f . g 05:37:06 where f = ... 05:37:11 oh, I see 05:37:13 can you even @pl everything that can be @pl'ed without nesting parentheses 05:37:26 oerjan: with the right combinators, surely; and like I said, you can use top-level definitions 05:37:26 you need to ban let..in too, then, unless you consider that to break pointfree and where not to 05:37:29 just not "junk" ones 05:37:33 ais523: well ok yes yesyes 05:37:50 my ICA-addled mind insists on interpreting let/where as simply sugar for lambda 05:39:11 ais523: it's not quite trivial sugar in the presence of mutually-recursive definitions 05:39:17 I also use this, which I don't know if anyone else already made up something like this: monadify = either (fail . show) return; 05:39:19 oerjan: did you ever find an elegant desugaring of that? 05:39:57 elliott: in ICA, recursion has to be explicit anyway 05:40:12 e.g. let versus let rec ... and ... in OCaml (and probably other MLs too) 05:40:45 Do you know if anything like the "monadify" function exists? 05:40:51 ugh, some of this program is just so, so ugly and I don't even know where to statr on fixing it 05:41:02 I want something like hlint but that's really, really anal 05:41:12 I can solve a list of problems in arbitrary order, I just can't make this program good 05:41:32 oh hm Jot has bounding parentheses if you convert it to @pl-form 05:41:50 *bounded 05:42:11 oerjan: I've actually been wondering what the minimum nesting level is needed for TCness in BF 05:42:26 I suspect it's either 2 or 3; 0 is obviously sub-TC, and 1 nearly as obviously 05:42:43 [F0] = [F]SK = ($ ap const) $ [F] 05:43:02 [F1] = \x y -> [F] (x y) 05:43:11 @pl \x y -> f (x y) 05:43:11 (f .) 05:43:23 duh 05:43:31 [F1] = (.) $ [F] 05:43:38 and [] = id 05:44:00 so barring typing issues, Jot needs only one level 05:44:18 Would you have written this code differently? parseConstantinople = runIO (getEnv "Constantinople" >>= flip openFile ReadMode >>= hGetContents) >>= (monadify .:: parse) (programParser $ VarE 'return) ""; 05:45:18 oerjan: Jot needs one level of what? And other? 05:45:26 of parentheses 05:45:33 OK 05:45:37 if you convert it point-free haskell 05:45:44 OK 05:46:18 oh wait 05:46:33 I know that K and I combinators correspond to (const) and (id) in Haskell. And in fact I used those as the definition of the root pointer: root = Pointer const id; 05:46:38 *[F0] = ($ const) . ($ ap) $ [F] 05:47:15 Is there S combinator function in Haskell? 05:47:27 ap, <*> 05:47:28 yes, ap in the (e ->) Monad 05:47:49 or <*> in the (e ->) Applicative 05:48:05 @type \f g x -> f x (g x) 05:48:06 forall t t1 t2. (t -> t1 -> t2) -> (t -> t1) -> t -> t2 05:48:13 @hoogle (t -> t1 -> t2) -> (t -> t1) -> t -> t2 05:48:14 Data.Function on :: (b -> b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> a -> a -> c 05:48:14 Data.Data gmapQl :: Data a => (r -> r' -> r) -> r -> (d -> r') -> a -> r 05:48:14 Control.Parallel.Strategies parZipWith :: Strategy c -> (a -> b -> c) -> [a] -> [b] -> [c] 05:48:18 meh 05:48:22 @pl \f g x -> f x (g x) 05:48:22 ap 05:48:42 Can there be used without Monad or Applicative needed? 05:48:55 what 05:49:06 i agree 05:51:16 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:52:35 I suspect it's either 2 or 3; 0 is obviously sub-TC, and 1 nearly as obviously <-- i think i monologued a proof for 1 on the channel not too long ago 05:52:54 1 being sub-TC? 05:52:57 it's not too hard 05:53:08 you basically can't do any flow control within a loop 05:53:44 zzo38: flip is readFile 05:53:46 openFile ReadMode >>= hGetContents 05:53:50 argh 05:54:14 irssi's line joining would be nice if you could actually trust it 05:54:31 oerjan: Sorry I do not understand can you explain it better please? 05:54:43 zzo38: it was mispasted by irssi 05:54:47 @src readFile 05:54:47 readFile name = openFile name ReadMode >>= hGetContents 05:54:49 OK. 05:55:07 that's what i meant 05:55:30 OK, so I do not need what I wrote; readFile will do that. OK thanks 05:56:00 So is (getEnv "Constantinople" >>= readFile) good enough? 05:56:43 i should think so 05:57:05 OK. Anything you have to say about the other parts of that program? 05:57:51 (The environment variable "Constantinople" is set in a shell script. It seems the only way it works in Template Haskell due to splices running multiple times) 05:57:52 oh dear; it looks like the next obvious thing to do to shiro is to either: 05:57:54 - name every core instruction 05:57:54 or 05:57:56 - rewrite the fungespace 05:59:39 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 06:01:18 I designed a computer (including the CPU instruction set) called OMEGACOM-1. I never intend to implement it in hardware, although it is intended to be possible to do so and of an old-style. 06:01:53 The keyboard consists of the alphabet (QWERTY), digits zero to nine, spacebar, and three more keys: RUBOUT, ALT, and SEND. 06:02:26 ALT+Z rewinds the tape, ALT+W to play tape, ALT+X to fast forward, ALT+Y to record. 06:03:07 ALT+0 is reset the computer, ALT+1 sends the user interrupt (interrupt 1), ALT+2 pauses the system, and ALT+3 to resume. 06:03:27 Other keys with ALT is used to put punctuation symbols. 06:04:06 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to luke-sr. 06:04:30 (Actually, the way it is designed, ALT+SPACE happens to be the same as RUBOUT, ALT+RUBOUT the same as SPACE, and ALT+SEND generates the keycode for the ALT key (which otherwise cannot be sent to the CPU).) 06:05:24 Bytes in this computer are 16-bits and addresses are also 16-bits. 06:05:26 -!- luke-sr has changed nick to copumpkin. 06:06:10 Memory map is 0x0000-0x3FFF for RAM, 0x4000-0x7FFF for VRAM, 0x8000-0xBFFF for SLOT-0, and 0xC000-0xFFFF for SLOT-1. 06:08:00 The RAM initially points to internal ROM instead, and then it disables itself after it copies itself to unused space in VRAM and jumps there. It starts like this: XOR A A MOV X "4000 ?LOAD MOV .XS .A LUI "180 =LOAD MOV P "4C08 SLV '1 '2 06:08:26 P is the program counter register. 06:14:53 Each instruction has a two-bit condition specifier, which can be: Always, Carry, Zero, or Nonzero. 06:20:57 -!- myndzi\ has joined. 06:24:16 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:26:09 What is your opinions and ideas about this? 06:26:32 it's great + perfect 06:26:33 mergeByteString Shiro.FungeSpace 30.1 27.8 06:26:34 !@ Shiro.FungeSpace 21.1 0.7 06:26:34 modifyIPList Shiro.Monad 15.4 39.1 06:26:34 doNextIns Shiro.Interpreter 4.9 1.1 06:26:36 ooh, interesting 06:26:46 how on earth is modifyIPList taking that much time? 06:26:57 modifyIPList :: (([IP],[IP]) -> ([IP],[IP])) -> Shiro () 06:26:58 modifyIPList f = modify $ \st -> st{ ipList = f (ipList st) } 06:27:02 oerjan: look at my cost centre :D 06:27:04 (well, one of them) 06:27:31 It is just meant to be oldstyle, actually. I did not explain everything yet. 06:29:20 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 06:29:40 i dunno 06:29:44 -!- copumpkin has joined. 06:30:43 oerjan: dunno what 06:30:44 ? 06:30:58 about profiling 06:32:46 I have rules for a card game called "Mature". You use a standard deck of cards, ranking from high to low: T98765432AKQJ. Play with 4 player and something to keep track of scores. Each player plays for himself. Give 13 cards to each player. Now the dealer can call any suit for trump. The player after the dealer can now lead any card to the first trick. 06:32:48 hmm, I can either write a new fungespace, clean up the core interpreter file (bleh), or convert everything to lenses, quite possibly seeing a speed improvement from doing so 06:32:52 who wants to vote? 06:33:21 After a card has been led to the trick, each player in order must now play a card to the trick. If you have anycard of the suit led you must play one of those, otherwise you can play any card you want to. If there is any trumps, the player who put the highest trump wins the trick,otherwise the player with the highest card of the leading suit wins the trick. 06:33:35 The winner of the trick places those cards face-down in their score pile and can lead any card to the next trick. 06:34:22 After all tricks are played. count points. Jacks and kings are collectively called "men". Make the longest sequence you can that alternates between men and queens (it doesn't matter which comes first). The number of cards in that sequence is your score. 06:35:42 (Other cards are not used for counting score) 06:40:52 zzo38: and presumably the game is played so that everyone has an equal number of turns as dealer? 06:41:06 coppro: Yes, I would assume so. 06:43:56 hmm... interesting 06:44:05 It seems to me that the scoring might be a little bit low 06:44:28 as likely all scores will be either one man, two man and a queen, or three men and two queens 06:44:42 but the idea that you do not control your own scoring cards is interesting 06:47:56 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 06:50:23 I have rules for another card game called "Mate". It is played with 20 cards only, the 89TJQ of each suit (Q is high). Each player gets ten cards laid out on the floor according to suit. These are called his "hand" even though they are actually on the floor. 06:51:23 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 06:51:23 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Changing host). 06:51:23 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 06:51:39 First player starts by leading any card to a trick. Follower must follow suit if possible. If that is not possible, they must follow rank. If they can do neither, they lose the game and the winner counts points. 06:51:42 -!- ive has quit (Quit: leaving). 06:52:40 that's a perfect information game :/ 06:53:06 or is once the hands are out anyway 06:53:17 Suits rank as in bridge. Whoever played the card that is higher ranked (or higher rank suit) wins the trick and leads any card for the next trick. (Note: Keep tricks for the players who held the cards originally; do not give them to the winner of the trick.) 06:54:55 Sacrificing: When it is your turn to play a card (leading or following), you may, if you choose, discard any of your cards before playing. (This might allow you to follow rank if you could not otherwise do so; it also adds to your score.) If this results in you having no cards on your turn, the last card played is assumed to be your only card and you must play it if possible (otherwise you lose). 06:55:52 Queen privilege: Whenever you lead a queen of any suit, you may force the opponent to follow with another queen if they have any. It is optional decision when you lead a queen, and an opponent having multiple queens can still select which one to play. 06:56:45 Scoring: Only the winner scores. Add together the total number of turns plus the number of sacrifices you made, and multiply this by the scoring value of the last card you played: Eight = 6, Nine = 3, Ten = 4, Jack = 9, Queen = 10. 07:01:23 I also have rules for a game called "Rummage", which you make melds of Rummy but also make tricks. 07:02:02 And "Chinese Euchre", which is neither Chinese nor Euchre. 07:10:39 Here are the rules for "Janken Poker": Shuffle the cards and deal one card face-up. Do rock-paper-scissors; the winner gets to keep that card (if stalemated, do again). You may reject the card you just received if you want to, by turning it face-down. Each player may reject only up to three cards. Repeat until each player has seven cards. 07:11:09 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:11:14 If you have seven cards and you receive another, you are forced to reject it (even if you have already rejected three cards). After each player has seven cards, both players discard two cards and whoever has better poker hand wins. 07:11:34 -!- copumpkin has joined. 07:17:49 I once saw the following problem in a book: First player puts any five cards they choose from the deck face-up in front of them. Second player does the same with the remaining cards. First player then discards from zero to five cards and takes replacements of their choice from the deck. Second player does the same. Rank hands as in poker. In case of tie, second player wins. 07:17:58 What should be strategy for first player to play? 07:25:35 In the same book was this problem: An opponent is playing crap but loaded one of the dice so that it is always 5. It is your chance to load the second dice to whatever probabilities you want. What should you do to minimize the chance of their winning? 07:26:54 Do you know the answer of either of these two problems? 07:27:07 the second seems easier 07:27:29 but still pretty hard 07:27:37 obviously you need to load it to never roll 6 07:27:54 and I think semi-obviously 1, 3, 4, and 5 need to have the same probability 07:28:11 so then it's a matter of working out what the probability of 2 should be, which is just an optimisation problem 07:30:24 -!- wth has joined. 07:31:02 ais523: the probability of 2 is certainly 1 07:31:19 CakeProphet: you're trying to force a loss 07:31:25 5+2 = 7 which is a win if you get it on the first roll 07:31:29 and a loss on other roles of a sequence 07:31:36 in fact I am strongly compelled by the evidence of 2. 07:31:46 oh, I see 07:31:52 you're misinterpreting the question 07:32:00 pssssh, you assume I read more than the bottom line of that conversation. :P 07:32:22 taking things out of context is always great fun. 07:33:07 5 seems to be a good number to rig a dice to if you want to increase your chance of winning at craps, anyway 07:33:32 I'm glad I wrote Shiro in Haskell; it would be unsalvagable if I'd messed it up this badly in another language 07:33:43 -!- wth has left. 07:34:09 * CakeProphet is quite adept at working with sloppy code. 07:34:20 it's an important skill to have in practice. 07:34:32 /writing/ sloppy code however, is not. 07:34:54 working with sloppy code is just a tactic to delay the fact that you're going to have to rewrite it 07:35:30 that's a big assumption of what is fact. 07:36:13 let fpState = FPState { fpGet = (\(GlobalFPState m) -> unsafeFromAny (m Map.! fpName)) <$> gets globalFPState 07:36:13 , fpModify = \f -> modifyGlobalFPState (\(GlobalFPState m) -> GlobalFPState $ Map.adjust (unsafeToAny . f . unsafeFromAny) fpName m) 07:36:13 , fpGetIP = (\(IPFPState m) -> unsafeFromAny (m Map.! fpName)) <$> gets (ipFPState . currentIP) 07:36:13 , fpModifyIP = \f -> modifyCurrentIP $ \ip@IP{ipFPState = IPFPState m} -> ip{ ipFPState = IPFPState $ Map.adjust (unsafeToAny . f . unsafeFromAny) fpName m } } 07:36:17 there, now you've all felt my pain 07:36:29 oh wait, I can just make these lenses, yaaaaaaay 07:36:38 yaaay 07:36:38 elliott: the formatting there made me bletch, I haven't looked at the actual code yet 07:36:56 what is FP 07:37:03 What is lenses means in that context? 07:37:20 I think Haskell coding possibly ought to be done in a lots-of-small-functions way, just like TDD people advocate for scripting languages 07:37:28 zzo38: basically a get function and a set function, along with a modify function defined from the two. 07:37:32 it's what I mostly do for ML, at least, except when replicating an imperative algorithm 07:37:39 or, is it the set that's defined from get/modify? 07:37:41 CakeProphet: fingerprint 07:37:47 zzo38: lenses are functional references 07:38:02 zzo38: basically, Lens a b is (a -> (b, b -> a)) 07:38:16 they encompass the notion of record fields as well as a ton of other stuff 07:38:23 and they're a Control.Category 07:38:25 so they compose really nicely 07:38:33 they're great 07:38:41 OK 07:39:00 except that's lame and no good person likes a -> (b, b -> a) 07:39:04 How does it compare to the Pointer type in my program? 07:39:09 CakeProphet: what? 07:39:11 but yeah, that's how they're defined. 07:39:18 -!- Nisstyre has joined. 07:39:24 CakeProphet: What is wrong with that way? 07:39:26 that definition is not only the most efficient, it's the most elegant -- it's (a -> Store b a) 07:39:29 where Store is the Store comonad 07:39:40 if you unbox the tuple, it's even faster :) 07:39:44 or use CPS, apparently 07:39:51 elliott: I prefer the two-seperate-functions definition. I suppose it's pretty much subjective and not worth arguing/persuading about. 07:39:59 CakeProphet: it's not subjective 07:40:03 the store comonad version is objectively faster 07:40:10 and has better theoretical properties 07:40:35 I see. 07:40:48 (used by the data-lens package) 07:41:21 CakeProphet: What is the two-seperate-functions definition? 07:42:03 (a -> b, b -> a -> a) 07:42:04 data Lens a b = Lens (a -> b) (a -> b -> a) 07:42:13 er yeah 07:42:27 it's not as performant, not as elegant, uglier to state the properties about, has fewer nice theoretical properties, and is lame :) 07:42:27 you can do it that way as well. 07:42:41 edwardk would be proud of me. 07:42:49 yeah but's totally a get function and a set functon. 07:42:51 which is way cool. 07:42:54 >_> 07:43:10 yeah, and now modification is really slow 07:43:11 awesome 07:43:22 REALLY slow. 07:43:24 getL (Lens f) a = pos (f a) 07:43:24 modL (Lens f) g = peeks g . f 07:43:24 setL (Lens f) b = peek b . f 07:43:26 ELEGANT ENOUGH FOR YOU??? 07:43:28 CakeProphet: actually, yes 07:43:34 the performance difference is not minor 07:43:58 oh and 07:43:59 lens :: (a -> b) -> (b -> a -> a) -> Lens a b 07:43:59 lens get set = Lens $ \a -> store (\b -> set b a) (get a) 07:44:03 WHOOOPS SO SUPERIOR 07:44:46 I guess I'm just a tuple-hater. 07:45:07 So, "a" is where you store in and "b" means the type of the data stored in there? Is that what "a" and "b" means there? 07:45:15 zzo38: yep 07:45:16 CakeProphet: they're not tuples in the data-lens implementation 07:45:22 type Store s = StoreT s Identity 07:45:23 data StoreT s w a = StoreT (w (s -> a)) s 07:45:41 CakeProphet: but I think the next version coming out is going to recommend unboxed or cps instead 07:45:46 where cps is 07:46:02 type Lens a b = forall r. a -> (b -> (b -> a) -> r) -> r 07:46:04 I think I defined the Pointer type in the Constantinople compiler something like that, as a read function and a write function. 07:46:10 and unboxed is like the tuple version but with more hashes :) 07:47:26 yeah a -> (b -> (b -> a) -> r) -> r does not look awful in any way. 07:47:44 CakeProphet: good thing you use the abstract API instead, then, based on construction from get/set, isomorphism, or comonad, right? 07:47:59 and reason about it that way, rather than relying on the efficient internal implementation that avoids unboxing 07:48:07 that also gives all the efficient update advantages of the comonad store model 07:48:22 Although in my program, it was a datatype defined using record names, and the write function came first. In addition, the type being stored in and the type of the data stored in there is the same type. 07:48:22 no that stuff is fine. I just dislike the cps 07:48:44 CakeProphet: you don't have to care about it, since the pure and unboxed versions are also supplied and they all act according to the basic API 07:48:56 but I find it hard to believe you wouldn't select to use it, on account of running the exact same code faster 07:49:11 yes I am a performance addict. 07:49:22 that's why I use Perl on a day-to-day basis. 07:49:25 so fast. 07:49:26 CakeProphet: so you're saying you'd _deliberately_ select the slower version? 07:49:32 despite it having no visible changes to your code at all? 07:49:34 you're insane 07:49:49 no I thought you were referring to the cps 07:49:52 which would change my code. 07:49:59 no, it wouldn't 07:50:10 uh.. 07:50:19 because it's exposed only in terms of the abstract API that all the lens implementations in the development data-lens expose 07:50:44 right. 07:50:53 https://github.com/ekmett/data-lens/blob/unboxed/Data/Lens/Class.hs 07:50:58 erm, that's not the class 07:51:01 https://github.com/ekmett/data-lens/blob/unboxed/Data/Lens/Class/Internal.hs 07:51:02 which is me not using cps. I thought you were saying the cps iteself was faster than any API built over it. 07:51:15 no, the advantage there is in avoided runtime overhead 07:51:56 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 07:52:07 How does my implementation of the Pointer type in the Constantinople compiler compare with lens? 07:52:22 zzo38: probably badly, if it's restricted to things of the form (Lens a a) 07:52:29 okay so these are convincing points. I can't say you've convinced me to care but I know which I'll use in the future. 07:52:51 CakeProphet: YEEES.... THE DATA-LENS MONOPOLY SHALL GROW... 07:53:02 (you'll probably want to use data-lens-template and data-lens-fd when you do, FWIW) 07:53:15 elliott: Well yes it is; both types are the same but otherwise it is like the (a -> b) and (b -> a -> a) stuff 07:53:19 (former for deriving of lenses from record fields, latter is just the module that would be in data-lens if it didn't depend on fucntional dependencies) 07:53:30 elliott: but fclabels has (!%%=)!!! 07:53:55 CakeProphet: data-lens has (^!+=) 07:53:57 there's NO WAY I could get that functionality from data-lens 07:54:02 ...oooooh. 07:54:07 also (!&&=) 07:54:12 totally useful, let me tell you :-D 07:54:31 CakeProphet: http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/data-lens-fd/2.0/doc/html/Data-Lens.html, http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/data-lens/2.0.1/doc/html/Data-Lens-Common.html 07:54:36 that's objectively better. Based on number and symbol combinations of hilarious operators I judge this to be superior. 07:54:41 former is State monad stuff 07:54:43 latter is functional stuff 07:54:54 But for the Constantinople esolang, my system works, at least. type PointerWrite = Memory -> Memory -> Memory; type PointerRead = Memory -> Memory; data Pointer = Pointer { mem_write :: PointerWrite, mem_read :: PointerRead }; root :: Pointer; root = Pointer const id; 07:54:55 CakeProphet: also, fclabels was recently ruined by switching to arrows :) 07:55:00 wat 07:55:01 why. 07:55:04 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 07:55:06 CakeProphet: because arrows suck 07:55:17 yeah who uses that shit. 07:55:35 &&& is maybe like the only thing I've found a use for. 07:55:53 well, it provides one useful thing (partial lenses, i.e. things that act like (a -> Maybe b, b -> a -> Maybe a)), but apart from that it's just semantic gunk 07:56:06 and those kinds of things can be built as a separate thing without some over-arching abstraction anyway 07:56:16 oh hey that's somewhat useful. 07:56:31 it is, but roconnor murmured something about implementing them for data-lens :) 07:56:32 Is there any similarity? I could have done it differently if it is useful to do so but for Constantinople both are the same type and I have functions to transform Pointers 07:56:51 zzo38: that should be fine for what you have 07:57:07 elliott: that a boy. Tell him everything will be okay. 07:57:18 do you mean atta boy 07:57:25 ...no 07:57:28 but maybe I do? 07:57:30 also? 07:57:44 isn't that sort of the same? 07:58:13 i don't think "that a boy" is a thing 07:58:34 internet says so. 07:58:36 Do the lenses have anything like transPointer and transWrite? 07:58:40 pah 07:58:47 zzo38: what are transPointer and transWrite 07:58:53 -!- Patashu has joined. 07:59:09 any sort of abstract library in Haskell probably has no mention of "pointer" anywhere in the API. 07:59:28 transPointer :: PointerWrite -> PointerRead -> Pointer -> Pointer; transPointer w r p = Pointer (transWrite w p) (r . (mem_read p)); 07:59:32 unless, of course, it's an abstract pointer library. :D 07:59:36 transWrite :: PointerWrite -> Pointer -> PointerWrite; transWrite w p x y = mem_write p (w x (mem_read p y)) y; 07:59:41 zzo38: that's just composition, isn't it? 07:59:44 in which case, yes 07:59:48 Lenses form a category 07:59:58 CakeProphet: oh yeah, and with data-lens, you have to hide less than fclabels; you just have to hide id and (.) for Prelude so you can get the Control.Category versions 08:00:31 things in Prelude should just get eaten by other things. 08:00:35 totally a good idea. 08:00:46 Control.Category should be exported by Prelude, it's just a bug that it isn't :) 08:02:09 elliott: Is it just composition? Well, the transPointer function is used to change a Pointer, so that it points to the head of whatever it was pointing to before, or to the tail of what it was before, etc 08:02:31 What are Control.Category versions of id and (.) 08:02:35 import Control.Category() --whoops 08:02:39 zzo38: typeclass methods 08:02:42 zzo38: hmm, well it _looks_ like composition 08:02:52 zzo38: control.category just adds a category typeclass 08:03:00 like you've said, return and (<=<) make the monad versions 08:03:08 and Kleisli is an instance of Control.Category.Category 08:03:09 as is (->) 08:03:09 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:03:14 http://haskell.org/ghc/docs/7.0.4/html/libraries/base/Control-Category.html 08:03:34 newtype Kleisli m a b = Kleisli { runKleisli :: a -> m b } 08:03:34 instance Monad m => Category (Kleisli m) where 08:03:34 id = Kleisli return 08:03:34 (Kleisli f) . (Kleisli g) = Kleisli (\b -> g b >>= f) 08:03:48 could Either be a Category maybe? 08:04:08 I am basing this solely on the fact that it has two type parameters. :P 08:04:23 I am too tired to do any kind of reasoning on the matter. 08:04:41 we need 08:04:44 id :: Either a a 08:04:45 so no. 08:04:55 (.) :: Either b c -> Either a b -> Either a c 08:05:00 this is also not possible. 08:05:07 it's very much not a category :P 08:05:36 I think id and (.) should have the same meaning as it does now, and using different names for the Control.Category. Like how monads use return and (<=<) instead of id and (.) 08:05:47 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 08:05:58 category theorists and anyone who uses lenses would disagree :-P 08:05:59 elliott: if you had something like Left a | Right b | Nothing maybe? 08:06:14 the only reason most of Prelude is like it is is because of backwards compatibility 08:06:23 CakeProphet: so Maybe (Either a b) 08:06:28 id = Nothing 08:06:29 yes 08:06:31 (Left _) . (Right _) = ? 08:06:38 Sgeo: Nothing, presumably 08:06:48 I don't think it obeys the laws 08:06:52 f . id = id . f = f 08:06:53 yes if you get "b" constructor then it is Nothing 08:07:02 if it's "a" or "c" then you get... a or c 08:07:04 Oh, wasn't paying attention to chat after elliott> (.) :: Either b c -> Either a b -> Either a c 08:07:33 or rather TWO bs. basically b's are eaten. 08:07:48 I need to go to sleep 08:07:50 But the monads are only for the same category as before, since it has the same objects, same morphisms, etc. The id and (.) are only for Hask category. 08:08:20 Night 08:08:37 not sure what to do in the case where you have an a and a c. 08:08:37 Sgeo: morn 08:08:47 I guess Nothing is always a convenient option. 08:09:01 but it could prefer one over the other. 08:09:09 this is probably breaking a bunch of laws I don't know about though. 08:09:36 f . id = id . f = f 08:09:37 that's the one law 08:09:42 you're breaking it. 08:09:42 Maybe the id for Category should be called idC 08:10:25 Nothing . a = a :P 08:10:28 a . Nothing = a 08:10:31 does that fix it? 08:10:50 Other law is associativity 08:11:45 CakeProphet: doesn't type. 08:11:51 zzo38: oh, yes. 08:11:53 And the (.) for Category is called (<<<) 08:11:55 elliott: oh right. 08:12:32 Left a | Right b | Both a b 08:12:42 Left a | Right b | Both a b | Nothing ???? 08:12:48 zzo38: no it's called (.) 08:12:58 CakeProphet: this sure sounds terrible 08:13:00 zzo38: afaik (<<<) is just an alias to match (>>>) 08:13:09 elliott: but maybe it's a category. :P 08:13:24 O, I looked at the codes for Control/Category.hs and in fact it does define id and (.) on the Hask category as well. 08:13:36 hey sometimes I need one, the other, both, or neither. anywhere in every function. 08:13:39 zzo38: yes, it's pretty much entirely backwards compatible. 08:13:41 -!- FireFly has joined. 08:13:46 It says directly in the file: (<<<) = (.) 08:15:02 LeftLeft a | LeftRight b | RightLeft c | RightRight d | LeftLeftLeftRight a b | LeftLeftRightLeft a b | ... | All a b c d | Nothing 08:15:06 elliott: it could always get worse 08:16:03 : replicateM_ 08:16:04 :t replicateM_ 08:16:05 forall (m :: * -> *) a. (Monad m) => Int -> m a -> m () 08:17:23 also *LeftLeftRightLeft a c 08:17:35 -!- Nisstyre has joined. 08:18:25 O, the difference is (<<<) has different fixity than (.) 08:18:31 elliott: truly this is a powerful type with implications both practical and theoretical. 08:19:03 oh you could also throw in a linked list just for fun. 08:20:22 well I guess it would be a tree actually. 08:25:54 :t mapM_ 08:25:55 forall a (m :: * -> *) b. (Monad m) => (a -> m b) -> [a] -> m () 08:28:37 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 08:37:13 my code somehow grew four lines during that massive simplification :-| 08:47:14 :( 08:47:27 and i don't think it got any faster too 08:48:56 good thing simple is good 08:49:15 i'm not sure it simplified much :D 08:49:20 :'( 08:49:32 must think of good reason to keep....................................... 08:51:26 monqy: there's pretty much only three improvements left to do to the code in its current state oops... 08:51:59 make it pass Mycology fully, give names to each of the basic instruction interpreters (maybe), implement the new fungespace, and maybe clean it up generally 08:55:08 -!- Nisstyre has joined. 08:59:16 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:00:25 ais523: you're still awake? 09:00:32 yes 09:00:36 I'm trying to roll over sleep pattern 09:00:51 me too! it probably won't work for me, tough 09:00:52 though 09:01:02 my default sleep pattern seems to be "desperately trying to get on a normal sleep pattern" 09:01:11 it's... suboptimal 09:03:34 Shiro/Types.hs:1:1: 09:03:34 Dynamic linking required, but this is a non-standard build (eg. prof). 09:03:35 You need to build the program twice: once the normal way, and then 09:03:35 in the desired way using -osuf to set the object file suffix. 09:03:37 oh my god, not this again 09:04:06 oh, it's because of Template Haskell usage 09:04:11 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 09:04:16 ais523: shake some generic fists at people for me, thanks 09:04:25 what hapened... 09:04:31 people, stop being so peoplish! 09:04:42 monqy: building profiling builds of programs that use TH is a bit of a pain 09:05:10 "Exclamation mark formed in space by two colliding galaxies" this is definitely new 09:05:11 s 09:05:19 "An awesome image that has been released by Nasa shows two galaxies colliding to resemble an enormous purple exclamation mark." are you even pretending to be news 09:07:03 monqy: cabal-dev is good btw 09:07:11 whats'e that 09:07:53 monqy: it sandboxes cabal stuff so that each project has its package repository, which is useful because cabal loves to break 09:08:50 the dependency tracking might be nice too, assuming it can does that 09:08:57 "shiro: Most RTS options are disabled. Link with -rtsopts to enable them." i did you asshole :( 09:09:09 monqy: define dependency tracking? obviously it makes sure that you don't epend on anything without noting it 09:11:08 i mean for packaging purposes one of my nightmares is that dependencies and friends murder me in my sleep 09:11:27 should I ever want to make my own packages 09:11:29 monqy: im dont understand............. 09:12:50 keeping track of what pakcages I use: a good thing 09:12:59 monqy: you know how to use cabal files right... 09:13:07 build-depends: 09:13:08 base >= 4 && < 5, 09:13:08 containers >= 0.4 && < 0.5, 09:13:08 bytestring >= 0.9 && < 0.10, 09:13:08 process >= 1.0 && < 1.1, 09:13:08 random >= 1.0 && < 1.1, 09:13:10 filepath >= 1.2 && < 1.3, 09:13:12 time >= 1.2 && < 1.4, 09:13:14 directory >= 1.1 && < 1.2, 09:13:16 unix >= 2.4 && < 2.5, 09:13:18 mtl >= 2.0 && < 2.2, 09:13:20 data-lens >= 2.0 && < 2.1, 09:13:24 data-lens-template >= 2.1 && < 2.2, 09:13:26 hashtables >= 1.0 && < 1.1 09:13:28 --shiro.cabal 09:13:30 i just started with base and then added the packages until my existing code worked 09:13:37 but my nightmare is in getting that to happen 09:13:45 the cabal file 09:13:51 ive never done it im scared ;_; 09:13:56 cabal init --no-comments 09:14:00 answer its questions 09:14:02 modify the result 09:14:22 monqy: but it's easy: http://sprunge.us/EZLZ 09:14:49 the only tricky part is knowing what bounds to give the dependencies, but it's pretty easy by looking at the release history of the package to see what kind of increments it goes in 09:15:02 that is the scariest part :'( 09:15:07 if the major version number increases only very rarely, you probably want the current minor release; else the current major release 09:15:13 it's really not hard 09:15:19 it just takes a few minutes 09:16:19 i'll se what hapens when i try it 09:16:26 (asusuming i try it) 09:23:22 what's interesting 09:23:34 is that a photograph of a photograph is a photograph of the original photograph's subject. 09:23:45 ok 09:24:04 monads are like cameras 09:24:09 snap :: a -> Photo a 09:24:16 photographs are like pointers to moments. 09:24:17 photoshop :: (a -> b) -> Photo a -> Photo b 09:24:24 cakeProphet :: Photo (Photo a) -> Photo a 09:24:27 elliott: except photos auto-join 09:24:51 ...well, they auto-join and get progressively shittier in quality. 09:26:46 snap (Photo a) = snap a 09:26:48 or something. 09:27:25 ...but not really. I guess join is best to encapsulate (oh shit OO terminology) that behavior. 09:27:36 autovivify :: Photo a -> a -- unimplementable 09:28:02 ...I don't see how that's autovivify in the Perl sense. 09:29:29 more like: vivify :: Maybe a -> a 09:29:38 or something. 09:29:48 but not really. 09:30:06 it's more like vivify :: weird Perl shit you probably shouldn't write in terms of Haskell 09:30:09 -!- Nisstyre has joined. 09:30:15 well, autovivification is when things get created automatically. 09:30:20 correct you are. 09:30:25 so that's automatically creating an object from a photo of it. 09:30:27 which you can't do. 09:30:33 ah I see. 09:30:46 anyway, what matters is that the terminology is colourful :) 09:31:01 uh oh, some part of me just wondered whether that photograph metaphor is actually good 09:31:03 self-hatred enabled 09:32:31 elliott -- the angsty teen years 09:32:44 nah, i went through those a few years ago 09:38:43 monqy: nobdoybody can help me :'( 09:38:45 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 09:38:47 selfhate elliott' = let elliott = ElliottWithHate elliott' hatred; hatred = join hate elliott in elliott 09:38:56 CakeProphet: how long did that take you 09:39:05 had to tie some knots... 09:39:06 -!- mycroftiv has quit (*.net *.split). 09:39:06 -!- Zetro has quit (*.net *.split). 09:39:06 -!- twice11 has quit (*.net *.split). 09:39:17 but actually not long. 09:39:42 within the minute. 09:42:00 -!- mycroftiv has joined. 09:42:00 -!- Zetro has joined. 09:42:00 -!- twice11 has joined. 09:42:54 Deewiant: jesus christ, man, long_.d 09:43:01 Deewiant: you're meant to be better than this 09:43:13 What 09:43:22 Deewiant: Inline assembly :D 09:43:22 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: FireFly). 09:43:46 heh, I like how your fallback case uses bigints 09:44:33 Well, the damn compiler doesn't implement 128-bit integers 09:44:42 -- lol @ Deewiant (note: should be aim to next instruction, not advance... probably?) 09:44:42 -- (definitely in the else clause) 09:44:42 -- well, it kind of is now 09:44:42 I'm really good at commenting 09:44:55 I don't know whether half my known bugs still exist or not 09:44:59 It was much easier to get the asm to work 09:45:42 http://hackage.haskell.org/package/largeword lame, I thought this would use some fast library for it, but it's just hand-written 09:47:19 -- TODO: Also, if the least significant bit of the flags cell is 09:47:20 -- high, o treats the file as a linear text file; that is, any 09:47:20 -- spaces before each EOL, and any EOLs before the EOF, are not 09:47:20 -- written out. The resulting text file is identical in appearance 09:47:20 -- and takes up less storage space. 09:47:22 let process | flags == 0 = id 09:47:23 lol 09:47:24 | otherwise = textify 09:47:26 Past me, you implemented this, why did you leave the TODO 09:47:28 If nobody told you about Windows yet: {Get,Free}EnvironmentStrings[AW] 09:47:37 so me and another guy managed to simultaneously start work on a several-year-dead project 09:47:45 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 09:47:50 like, within days of each other 09:47:51 Deewiant: Ugh 09:48:09 -!- copumpkin has joined. 09:48:12 Deewiant: I'd rather just depend on POSIX than manually case on the platform and muck about with the FFI for Windows 09:48:17 Who needs EVAR on Windows anyway :P 09:48:25 I suppose I could write a tiny C wrapper sometime. 09:48:42 Now to figure out why the heck cabal-dev won't build me a profiling version 09:49:20 Jesus christ, what is the point of letting me build a profiling version if you won't turn -rtsopts on 09:49:25 Oh 09:49:26 Oh 09:49:29 I see 09:49:35 I have been running the old version all this time 09:49:39 I'm 09:49:40 smart 09:49:55 This means that all my performance measurements might be totally bullshit :D 09:50:18 Ha ha ha, the zero change in performance is actually a slowdown of about half a second :-| 09:50:22 Fuck my life :-| 09:50:32 > let cakeprophet = Prophet cake sleep; sleep = sleep cakeprophet in sleep cakeprophet 09:50:33 Not in scope: data constructor `Prophet' 09:51:48 cakeskell permits infinite types... 09:52:41 I also love how the entire Erlang community is on #erlang :P 09:55:22 Ha ha ha this profiling trace is depressing. 09:56:37 Everything is somewhat slow? 09:56:57 Deewiant: The non-lens record accessors somehow make an appearance as noticeable cost centres. 09:57:16 Ordinarily I'd expect this to be because everything else is just so fast, but somehow my record accessors are actually slow. 09:57:45 OK, shaved off about a tenth of a second by strictifying EVERYTHING 09:58:20 Maybe I should try the git data-lens with those nice unboxed tuples. 10:01:34 This is actually really disturbing... why is this so slow. 10:19:39 Looks like I'm going to have to revert these lens changes for now. 10:19:59 Deewiant: Yeah, OK, the new fungespace will be within the next few changes I make, so WATCH OUT. 10:20:55 * Deewiant ducks 10:21:02 Deewiant: TOO LATE IT HIT YOU WITH SPEED 10:21:12 FUCKK I CANT HANDLE THE PSE;D 10:21:50 moment of silence 10:21:55 "in memory of Deewiant" 10:22:05 ""couldnt handle the pse;d"" 10:22:58 nobody can handle the pse;d 10:23:13 How will you code it if you can't handle it 10:23:34 badly 10:23:50 Shame 11:15:00 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 11:24:40 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: The Other Game). 11:33:36 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 11:44:44 -!- azaq23 has joined. 11:54:53 -!- boily has joined. 12:31:44 Hmm 12:31:51 I guess I'll rewrite the fungespace with the non-lens version 12:32:00 And conservatively transform things into a more lens-based style later 12:32:11 When I can run Mycology in under half a second :P 12:35:38 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 12:47:57 -!- Nisstyre has joined. 12:48:57 -!- aloril has joined. 12:54:49 -!- FireFly has joined. 13:06:23 Deewiant: How does the dynamically-sized array stuff work in CCBI's fungespace, anyway; it seems like you'd have to move spaces around a ton to make it work. Or do they have a maximum size, just not preallocate to that? 13:07:16 The arrays are mostly static 13:07:34 "Mostly" :-) 13:08:00 When a new box gets placed, sometimes the array from an old box it subsumes is reused 13:08:07 See AABB.consume 13:08:12 Heeeey, my structure is fractal. 13:08:18 And yes, it involves moving stuff around a ton :-P 13:08:22 Deewiant: I was going to avoid reading your code for licensing reasons but OK. 13:08:31 Well don't then 13:08:42 Nah, I will, and just ignore any created derivative status :P 13:08:46 Await my write-up on the thing, which may or may not be begun and finished this year 13:08:54 Deewiant: Not sure I see the advantage over a simpler mcmap-style region layout, mind you 13:09:15 What's a simpler mcmap-style region layoutt 13:09:17 -t 13:10:11 Deewiant: Hash table indexed by dividing each coordinate by N, resulting in a static-sized square array indexed by moduloing each coordinate by N 13:10:24 Literally the simplest possible "square regions in a hash table" 13:11:50 So a partition of the space into arrays of size N^d 13:12:16 Deewiant: Yes 13:12:33 Deewiant: I could even cheat like Vorpal and arrange it so that a convenient amount of negative space is included in the origin array :-) 13:12:52 But I'm fully willing to believe that AABB is totally faster for some reason, I just don't know why :P 13:13:30 Obviously something even fancier is probably the ideal, but I can't think of anything that wouldn't be fast with this 13:13:38 Nobody's done quite that, I don't think 13:13:43 So maybe it is better, who knows 13:14:06 Really? It's the "obvious thing", at least to me. 13:14:40 Well, most don't divide the space into square regions, i.e. they just use N = 1 :-P 13:14:53 RC/Funge-98 does something weird 13:15:38 stinkhorn uses a quadtree of square regions in some way, IIRC 13:15:50 http://sprunge.us/cVAX ;; there HAS to be a way to exploit this redundancy :P 13:15:58 And then there's CCBI 13:16:00 And I think that's it 13:16:30 Deewiant: Well sure, but the field of "sparse, discrete rectangular space" surely cannot be that undersolved 13:16:49 Oh, I'm sure it isn't 13:16:56 I just meant in the context of Funge 13:18:01 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 13:18:11 Deewiant: Right :P 13:18:19 Hmm 13:18:44 I can't think of any way to exploit the redundancy in these structures that doesn't end up creating a quadtree :D 13:18:55 And there's no way I'm writing the essential same algorithms twie 13:18:56 twice 13:22:48 Shoppe --> 13:25:35 -!- derrik has joined. 13:27:11 -!- Nisstyre has joined. 13:32:36 -!- edwardk has joined. 13:32:36 -!- edwardk has quit (Changing host). 13:32:36 -!- edwardk has joined. 13:41:41 hmm, actually i probably don't need mincoords/maxcoords on the region map 13:41:49 or the population 13:41:56 should be sufficiently few elements to calculate that... 13:42:53 Annoying that I can't benefit from IntMap's fast minimum/maximum, though, because I need the minimum/maximum vectors... 13:43:06 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 13:43:27 helo Phantom_Hoover 13:43:57 You should probably think about what use case you're optimizing for first :-P 13:47:27 Deewiant: Mycology, Fungicide 13:47:34 And preferably no pathological worst-cases 13:47:55 case filename of ... 13:50:19 Deewiant: CCBI does that, I take it? 13:50:31 Anyway, this isn't the Best Fungespace, this is just something interim to get my runtime down :) 13:51:19 Hmm, how big to make regions 13:56:31 What are Haskell and BrainFuck's main differences? I am having trouble spotting them other than syntax, evaluation and staticly typed stuff. 13:58:35 Gregor: In brainfuck, [] is a function. But in Haskell, "import" isn't a function. 13:58:39 So brainfuck is more flexible. 13:58:47 Also brainfuck is everywhere; Urban Müller said so. 13:59:34 Ahhh! 14:01:54 Stop bullying me :( 14:03:04 Apparently Shiro would cost $32,460 to develop. 14:03:14 I'm always quite sceptical of sloccount's estimates. 14:06:07 `addquote You mean it'd be Tau Zero but without the spaceship? 14:06:11 635) You mean it'd be Tau Zero but without the spaceship? 14:06:25 Um, wha? 14:06:26 Phantom_Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 14:06:33 Phantom_Hoover: I laughed; good enough for me 14:15:06 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:19:06 -!- Nisstyre has joined. 14:19:07 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 14:20:50 -!- derrik has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 14:21:20 -!- derrik has joined. 14:36:04 > divmod (-999) 512 14:36:05 Not in scope: `divmod' 14:36:09 > divMod (-999) 512 14:36:10 (-2,25) 14:36:13 > quotRem (-999) 512 14:36:14 (-1,-487) 14:37:47 -!- cheater has joined. 14:41:08 > 9999 `shiftL` 9 14:41:09 Ambiguous type variable `a' in the constraint: 14:41:09 `Data.Bits.Bits a' 14:41:09 a... 14:41:11 > 9999 `shiftL` 9 :: Int 14:41:12 5119488 14:41:14 > 9999 `shiftR` 9 :: Int 14:41:14 19 14:41:16 right 14:43:01 > 9999 `shiftL` 128 :: Int 14:43:02 0 14:43:19 That's not fast then now is it 14:45:48 Deewiant: What 14:46:59 elliott: It's doing a check against the bitSize, I presume 14:47:09 Ah 14:47:17 idx :: Vector -> (Int, Int, Int, Int) 14:47:17 idx (x,y) = (mask x', mask y', offs x', offs y') 14:47:17 where x' = fromIntegral x 14:47:17 y' = fromIntegral y 14:47:17 mask :: Int -> Int 14:47:18 mask = (.&. regionMask) 14:47:22 offs :: Int -> Int 14:47:24 offs = (`shiftR` regionPow) 14:47:26 Patches welcome :-P 14:47:33 Unless lambdabot's running on an architecture where that's the behaviour, but that seems doubtful 14:48:09 elliott: x' = fromintegral x :: Int and leave out the mask/offs types? 14:48:33 Deewiant: I think they might end up more generic... but anyway, I'm talking about speed patches :-P 14:48:44 Oh god, I hope this doesn't turn out uglier than insertFS and mergeByteString. 14:49:08 You can't really speed patch that without inline assembly or the like :-P 14:49:19 elliott: It's doing a check against the bitSize, I presume 14:49:21 Or messing with the type signature 14:49:25 :P 14:49:34 Deewiant: I'm fine with the type changing but I suspect the tuple will be eliminated 14:49:37 At compile-time 14:49:49 idx :: Int# -> Int# -> (# Int#, Int#, Int#, Int# #) 14:49:54 OKAY? 14:50:22 Deewiant: PERFECT. Except no, it has to take a Vector because them be the types I'm working with. Actually I should write specialised Value <-> Int conversion functions, I think unsafeCoerce would work. 14:50:28 Since it's probably sixty-four bit ints vs. thirty-two 14:50:42 In which case unsafeCoerce will work for Value -> Int, and for every sane Int -> Value 14:51:04 uncheckedIShiftRL# x regionPow 14:51:09 import GHC.Prim 14:51:15 And use Int# 14:51:35 Finally my code is beginning to become readable 14:51:38 TIME TO THROW ALL THAT WAY 14:52:22 Or do you want sign extension there 14:52:38 Deewiant: I need finding the minimum coordinates to work, at least 14:52:44 On the mask results 14:52:44 If you do, s/L#/A#/ 14:52:45 And maximum too 14:52:53 The offset should always be positive, too 14:52:56 So yeah 14:53:16 OK but no seriously I should write insertFS before getting into MICRO-OPTIMISATION TERRITORY 14:53:32 -!- copumpkin has joined. 14:56:11 -!- hebru has joined. 14:58:12 hola 14:58:17 Hello. 14:58:42 Welcome to #esoteric, worldwide hub for esoterica. 14:58:58 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 14:59:54 *esoteric programming languages 15:00:02 -!- invariable has changed nick to variable. 15:01:01 OK, insertFS is easy, it's insertSR that's hard :P 15:01:13 Maybe because it's the EXACT SAME INSERTFS AS BEFORE. 15:01:21 -!- hebru has quit (Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )). 15:01:22 What are these TLAs 15:01:50 Deewiant: FS = fungespace, SR = space region 15:01:51 Insert into FileSystem and insert into SRAM? 15:01:57 Almost 15:01:59 :t insert 15:02:00 forall a. (Ord a) => a -> [a] -> [a] 15:02:08 insertFS originally chosen for clash-avoidance :P 15:02:38 import hiding, qualified, etc 15:03:32 Deewiant: My own modules? Gross 15:03:41 I'll call it insert when it's a separate package 15:03:50 No, Data.List 15:04:51 ?hoogle insert 15:04:51 Data.HashTable insert :: HashTable key val -> key -> val -> IO () 15:04:52 Data.IntMap insert :: Key -> a -> IntMap a -> IntMap a 15:04:52 Data.IntSet insert :: Int -> IntSet -> IntSet 15:04:55 Meh 15:04:57 :t Prelude.insert 15:04:58 Not in scope: `Prelude.insert' 15:04:59 Meh 15:05:06 :t Data.List.insert 15:05:07 forall a. (Ord a) => a -> [a] -> [a] 15:05:13 :t List.insert 15:05:13 elliott, so your idea of an esoteric language is Haskell with the type checker turned off? 15:05:14 forall a. (Ord a) => a -> [a] -> [a] 15:05:18 -!- augur has joined. 15:05:36 haskell with no typechecker doesn't work 15:05:45 well, you lose typeclasses 15:06:07 but i hate type classes so it's ok 15:06:11 oh ok 15:06:16 :D 15:07:44 kmc: That's my idea of a fast language 15:07:50 SOOOO FAAAAST 15:09:55 elliott: fast to run or fast to compile? 15:09:58 TURBO HASKELL 15:10:00 lol 15:10:08 ed's thinking resurrecting that 15:10:32 thinking of 15:11:13 copumpkin: Run :P 15:11:19 why? 15:11:24 it sounds kind of fun 15:11:33 also, I hope he writes a haskell parser in trifecta 15:11:46 elliott: fast to run or fast to compile? 15:11:48 It was in reply to that 15:12:58 oh 15:13:11 -!- MSleep has changed nick to MDude. 15:13:11 why would turning off types make the code faster to run? 15:13:37 kmc was presumably referring to my use of unsafeCoerce for optimisation 15:13:47 oh, like agda's? 15:14:18 Yes, except instead of Agda, it's a human doing it 15:14:29 unsafeCoerce (+) (unsafeCoerce 3) (unsafeCoerce (unsafeCoerce (+) (unsafeCoerce 1) (unsafeCoerce 2))) 15:14:38 except you need no typeclasses on those operations 15:15:19 Wow, everything is actually more or less compiling 15:15:40 Except for my ~optomized~ mergeByteString which makes assumptions that are now false, heh 15:22:51 Deewiant: I just realised the way I'm doing it now can't possibly do anything but hurt speed >_< 15:23:00 I guess it'll reduce memory consumptiont hough 15:23:08 Doing what, hurt compared to what 15:23:34 Hurt compared to my fungespace; and just replacing the underlying structure wihout adding any kind of caching of the current array or anything 15:23:48 Because it's still doing lookups all the time, they just happen to go to an array 15:24:00 Yeah you need caching 15:24:19 It might help a bit, the processor does caching :-) 15:24:32 I guess I'll see if this works, and if it does, then leave the fungespace for now until I write something ~amazing~; I can optimise other things until then 15:24:35 Like the stack :P 15:24:43 Also more fingerprints?? 15:38:37 Hmm 15:38:49 I wonder how much worse (Map (Int,Int) a) is at lookup than (IntMap (IntMap a)) 15:39:43 could be better :O 15:40:18 it's pretty easy to construct pathological cases where (Map Int) beats IntMap 15:40:37 compare also to http://hackage.haskell.org/package/unordered-containers 15:43:10 I should probably try unordered-containers, yeah 15:44:51 (Map (Int,Int)) might beat (IntMap . IntMap) due to fewer cache misses, or something 15:46:18 science 15:47:47 indeed 15:55:09 Deewiant: You'll be pleased to know my new fungespace is completely broken 15:58:43 How'd that happen 16:00:55 Deewiant: I diagnose it with the rare condition "not working" 16:00:58 Time to optimise my stack instead 16:01:12 Linked lists aren't bad but I guess localit 16:01:13 y 16:01:15 has an effect 16:05:58 OK 16:06:09 I have here an Amnesty International catalogue. 16:06:12 It is the funniest thing. 16:06:15 Purchase some amnesty 16:06:52 If you compressed every single stereotype of a middle-class, sandal-wearing Guardian reader into a catalogue, this would be it. 16:07:06 Some highlights: 16:07:21 Kitchen utensils made from recycled stainless steel and bamboo. 16:07:36 Biodegradable sponges. 16:07:45 oh my god 16:07:51 Himalayan soap nuts. 16:08:15 Natural soap, wrapped in leaves from wild trees. 16:08:36 wow 16:08:43 Christmas tree decorations hand-carved by a community group in Bethlehem. 16:08:59 I want to buy it from you 16:09:05 and submit it to galleries as a work of art 16:09:21 Oh my god what Bethlehem means "house of meat". 16:09:26 A cake stand, made in India. 16:09:38 OK, this is the best one. 16:09:49 A metal trivet, *made from recycled bike chains.* 16:09:57 my dog had been barking for 30 mins at 2am at some cat while my brother tries to sleep for work 16:09:58 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving"). 16:10:03 -!- elliott has joined. 16:10:14 I know, it's amazing. 16:10:16 i gave the dog the greasiest glare 16:10:22 Phantom_Hoover: i just... 16:10:24 it just might be enough 16:10:30 Oh my god, these people are basically elves. 16:11:02 whats a trivet? 16:11:09 itidus20, a thing you rest hot pots on. 16:11:24 cool 16:11:25 They're one of those things you buy once and never think of again. 16:11:45 how do you make your stare greasy? 16:11:58 by being angry 16:12:11 where does the word greasy come from? 16:13:27 i dunno... might be a local slang 16:13:33 no it didnt work dog has started again 16:13:55 try vasaline instead 16:14:14 ahh here we go 16:14:20 entry 9: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=greasy&page=2 16:14:32 aussie slang.. woooo 16:15:40 hmm, why is this SConstruct file marked executable despite being a text file that isn't a shellscript with no shebang? 16:15:44 i have heard it in use so it is indeed aussie slang 16:16:41 ais523: Windows? 16:16:57 elliott: possibly, but most of the files in the directory have the x bit set correctly 16:17:08 (it's from an svn repo, in case that's relevant) 16:17:18 hmm, I only need about a hundred times speed-up to be competitive with cfunge 16:19:09 hmm, my acos, asin and atan are OK, but cos, sin and tan are broken 16:19:24 oh hmm 16:19:36 what are you implementing? 16:19:40 Did you implement them manually or something? :-P 16:19:42 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:19:47 Deewiant: , (B, const $ fixp (degree acos)) 16:19:47 , (C, const $ fixp (degree cos)) 16:19:57 Do the non-a variants not take a fixed-point or something? :-P 16:20:00 itidus20: funge 16:20:08 ahh 16:20:15 -!- augur has joined. 16:20:28 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:20:47 elliott: Cosine takes an angle and returns a ratio; the inverse takes a ratio and returns an angle 16:20:54 Oh, duh 16:21:09 -!- edwardk has joined. 16:21:09 -!- edwardk has quit (Changing host). 16:21:09 -!- edwardk has joined. 16:21:13 I should just define degree without the function-wrapping part :-P 16:23:30 Deewiant: Well, that didn't help :) 16:23:48 Deewiant: But yeah, OK, wrt take an angle: An integral angle? 16:23:56 FIXP should really be FIXP→FIXP all the way, sigh 16:24:03 I don't remember FIXP, that was just maths 16:24:12 Bah, I'll check CCBI 16:24:23 Or RCFu- ahahahahaha 16:26:06 Deewiant: I like how you handle infinity and nan 16:26:19 Hmm, I guess NaN may be part of the specs 16:26:23 As in, NaN-reflecting 16:28:03 -!- augur has joined. 16:29:12 -!- edwardk has left ("Leaving..."). 16:29:59 -!- Patashu has quit (Quit: MSN: Patashu@hotmail.com , Gmail: Patashu0@gmail.com , AIM: Patashu0 , YIM: patashu2 .). 16:50:51 Deewiant: I like how your D code is better encapsulated than my Haskell 16:51:39 I guess Haskell sucks huh 16:51:49 Deewiant: More like I suck 16:51:58 Yeah I find that more acceptable as well 16:52:07 There's stuff here that accesses the stack directly with list crap :-/ 16:52:15 * elliott makes a Stack module 16:52:23 -!- derrik has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 16:52:47 Deewiant: It's hard to avoid exposing constructors when everything is in one Types module though :P 16:53:54 -!- derrik has joined. 16:54:08 -!- derrik has left. 16:54:33 elliott: Don't do that :-P 16:54:56 Deewiant: It's unavoidable; you inevitably get circular dependencies otherwise 16:55:08 Thus why most major projects do it 16:55:18 It sucks, but that's an actual flaw in Haskell :P 16:55:36 But that's only for the type definitions, no? 16:55:45 Then just don't export the constructors from that module :-P 16:55:59 Deewiant: Then how does the stack module implement its actions 16:56:03 Divination? unsafeCoerce? 16:56:10 Or are you saying all my functions should be in one module too 16:56:15 Because that's great 16:56:24 Meh, just use .hs-boot files 16:56:45 Deewiant: I did; they couldn't solve the circular dependency I had before 16:56:52 Because it was a circular dependency on _types_ 16:57:00 Which is unavoidable with my monad structure 16:57:10 Howso 16:57:10 I still have one required hs-boot file 16:57:14 I guess I could separate some things out thoughd 16:57:15 it'd be neat if haskell had divination 16:57:35 Deewiant: Fingerprint record includes Shiro () actions; Shiro is StateT FungeState, FungeState includes fingerprint information 16:57:38 Same with IP 16:57:48 → They all need to be in one big ol' module 16:58:08 Fungespaces, stacks, and refstores can be separated out, but the rest are all entwined pretty fundamentally 16:58:51 Can't you granularize the dependencies a bit 16:59:09 Deewiant: The dependencies are fine; Haskell just has a poor module system 16:59:16 But you're welcome to try 16:59:43 So that you e.g. have (MonadState IP m, MonadState FingerprintStuff m) => m () 16:59:53 Haha 17:00:15 Deewiant: Yes, I could technically rewrite my whole monad as a huge context, at great run-time cost and that of code clarity too 17:00:21 I don't find that very desirable :P 17:00:43 Hmm, no class aliases yet I guess 17:00:52 Shame 17:01:54 Then you could do that and just alias it 17:02:06 No comment on the runtime cost :-P 17:02:33 Deewiant: wrt the runtime cost, it was taking two seconds to run Mycology with typeclasses 17:02:34 vs one 17:02:40 heh 17:02:43 Specialise pragmas helped naught 17:02:49 That's not the kind of multiplication factor I'm ok with 17:02:57 Shame 17:03:23 It is 17:03:37 Hmm, I should probably make a generic stack type rather than a special stackstack type, but that would be slower :) 17:03:59 Oh wait, I could use type families 17:04:03 That's probably overkill, though :P 17:04:18 Especially since the stack stack is different to stacks 17:04:21 0-padded and all 17:05:57 I special case that in the functions themselves 17:07:04 Deewiant: You mean functions using stacks? 17:07:08 Or the actual stack code itself 17:07:17 In the stack code, of course 17:09:30 Deewiant: That's... 17:09:34 Deewiant: That's a crime 17:09:37 Against everything 17:09:46 Deewiant: Wait, I could just pad out the stack stacks with error "nope" :-D 17:09:50 Why's that 17:10:04 (Except that doesn't really help for the "handle element not being there" case) 17:10:18 Deewiant: Because parametric containers should have identical behaviour regardless of their element type? 17:10:20 Generic programming, man 17:10:33 This isn't a library so suck it 17:12:39 Deewiant: At least pretypedef the two used cases and don't expose the parametric type! 17:12:43 It's not RIGHT. 17:12:50 You shouldn't even be able to look at the type you're given. 17:12:58 Or do you distinguish itbased on sizeof :D 17:13:38 Well, with MODE it's hidden but not otherwise 17:13:41 static if (befunge93) 17:13:41 Stack!(.cell) stack; 17:13:41 else version (MODE) 17:13:41 CellContainer* stack; 17:13:41 else 17:13:44 Stack!(.cell)* stack; 17:15:44 Deewiant: What's MODE got to do with it 17:15:49 Oh, right 17:15:51 Different things 17:15:52 Deque 17:15:54 ies 17:15:55 right 17:21:37 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 17:24:37 Woot, now I have a verbose stack API; I'll remember how this is a gain soon I guess 17:25:29 Heh, circular dependency already just by putting things outside of .Types, take that Deewiant 17:25:42 Ouch 17:25:44 (Types needs to see Stack because obviously all the state stuff includes Stacks, but Stacks are made out of Values, defined in Types) 17:25:59 (OK, so it's caused by a monolithic type module there, but there are more conflicts without :P) 17:26:08 You need CircularTypes and NormalTypes :-P 17:26:19 I don't have any NormalTypes :P 17:26:23 Value? 17:26:42 Well, OK 17:26:46 I assume it's something like type Value = Intt 17:26:46 But that's just an alias :P 17:26:50 Yeah so? 17:26:58 You want me to make a module for one type? 17:27:00 See ccbi.cell 17:27:23 Pah :-P 17:27:27 I just need to rethink this 17:28:00 You could define Value in Stack? 17:28:19 Oh, but you want space to be separate, so probably nott 17:28:21 tttttttttttt 17:28:32 Deewiant: Stuttering? 17:28:36 Yep 17:29:01 Deewiant: Surely rubber dome is more tolerable than ttttttttt 17:29:02 I'm back to that once-majorly-stuttering keyboard which for some reason stutters a lot less after sitting in a cupboard for months 17:29:43 I'll use this until it becomes intolerable, for the moment it's not bad 17:30:12 Haven't you snarked at me for not yet fixing my keyboard 17:30:24 This isn't really "fixable" :-P 17:31:09 Warranty? 17:31:11 No? :P 17:31:28 Cost of sending keyboard to Japan and back: greater than price of keyboard 17:31:33 static assert (dim >= 1 && dim <= 3); 17:31:39 I don't like your ideas 17:31:44 And their nasty limitations 17:31:47 Hey at least I enforce my assumptions 17:31:59 Are you saying I don't? 17:32:05 I enforce my two-dimensionality by having nothing else :D 17:32:14 Could do it only in all the places it's necessary but I got lazy 17:32:21 2011-09-01 18:16:34 ( elliott) Except for my ~optomized~ mergeByteString which makes assumptions that are now false, heh 17:32:35 Deewiant: The bad assumptions lead to failure to compile 17:32:37 Sounds like enfrocement to me 17:32:42 Ah, okay 17:42:55 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:52:53 -!- augur has joined. 17:56:47 Has anyone here used OpenCL? 17:59:56 I haven't. 18:00:03 thanks 18:00:15 nor have I, even though logically I might have been expected to have done 18:00:25 ais523: CUDA, then? 18:00:35 although possibly I'll end up using it before long if nvidia continue screwing up the CUDA SDK 18:00:40 I have used CUDA 18:01:11 I can't seem to find any documentation on using OpenCL outside of Python, which is ridiculous 18:01:26 lol 18:01:42 High-performance SIMD parallel computing: I'm thinkin' Python! 18:01:59 Gregor: Well, you compile the regular OpenCL program and just invoke it from Python :P 18:02:13 Totally ridiculous that I can't find documentation on how to do that from C, thoug. 18:02:14 though. 18:02:19 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page <--- uhhh, wowwtf 18:02:29 Yeah, I was going to bring that up. 18:02:30 Gregor: ooh, what is it? 18:02:41 nobody revert until I see it :P 18:02:45 Is the page just down now? 18:02:51 Gregor: What was it? 18:02:55 it won't load here 18:03:01 I got a fancy DNS message earlier. 18:03:08 ais523: also, am I right in thinking that programs which offer to perform a computationally intensive task on both the GPU and CPU are mostly wasting their time as far as the latter goes? 18:03:12 elliott: It's hyper-overloaded because it's EasyDNS saying "lol, EasyDNS went kaput, u sux" 18:03:24 Gregor: Ugh, that happened to another site I visit 18:03:25 (Only slightly paraphrasing) 18:03:27 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Main_Page works 18:03:32 elliott: Naturalismo. 18:03:34 But lol 18:03:35 elliott: depends on how well it parallelizes, they may well be wasting their time on the /GPU/ 18:03:44 ais523: it's embarrassingly parallel 18:03:45 To Whom This May Concern: 18:03:45 You are seeing this message due to the site you are trying to view having its DNS hosted by EveryDNS. 18:03:55 elliott: in that case, running it on the CPU is mostly useless too 18:04:00 ais523: right 18:04:10 umm, reorder words so that sentence makes sense 18:04:24 ais523: (I was wondering whether I should bother learning how to do extremely-parallel programming in C as well, or whether OpenCL would do just fine) 18:04:43 the problem with OpenCL is that nobody really supports it yet 18:05:10 at least with CUDA, one vendor supported it 18:05:13 but they seem to be going backwards 18:05:33 I thought OpenCL was supposed to compile to CUDA and GLSL? 18:05:39 (they removed the simulator on the basis that the GPU could now do limited debugging itself, which is not good if your program has a memory leak and a GPU memory leak requires a hard reboot) 18:05:40 Well, I've ran an OpenCL program on my card and it worked fine. 18:06:02 OpenCL support is getting better 18:06:17 but even then, CUDA doesn't feel like the sort of lang you compile to, but the sort of lang you write in 18:06:26 So? 18:06:45 Hmm, traditional crypt() is GPU-friendly, right? 18:07:16 I don't actually know 18:07:24 PAH 18:08:02 http://developer.nvidia.com/opencl 18:08:18 Seems like OpenCL probably supports just about as much as CUDA ... which is to say, NVidia stuff :P 18:10:02 Microsoft are also working on their own DirectX-based thing 18:10:08 I know because they keep giving seminars about it 18:14:11 oh, yay, crypt actually has a fixed-length input 18:14:17 and you can just zero-pad, because that's how c strings work 18:14:49 elliott: Windows used to allow up to 14-character passwords 18:15:00 and it split them into two 7-character passwords and hashed them separately 18:15:05 haha 18:15:20 (that's been fixed a while back, but for a while, people were recommended to use passwords at least 15 chars long so that it didn't default to the old algo) 18:15:56 god dammit i dont want an opencl/c tutorial as a video 18:15:59 fuck you fuck you fuck youuuuuuuu 18:17:46 elliott: Isn't it annoying how when you search for $X tutorial the first result is always some bullshit on YouTube? :P 18:18:03 what happened to text :-( 18:18:12 Gregor: sometimes the YouTube tutorials are actually useful, although I normally prefer text 18:21:40 you know what? I'm starting to think that in many situations where pointers or indexes are used, referencing by coordinates into a globalish structure is saner 18:22:00 define globalish 18:22:54 some moderately-persistent, mutable view of whatever it is that the application processes 18:23:01 one example I'm thinking of is the world map in computer games 18:23:16 so not global in the global sense then :) 18:24:04 globalish in that you're probably only going to have one of them and you're going to refer to it all over your application 18:24:09 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/6582236/branch-predication-on-gpu 18:24:17 gpus sure are weird! 18:24:28 oh dear, I can tell that's going to be a mess just from the question 18:24:34 howso? 18:24:55 people confusing it with branch prediction, for one thing 18:25:02 heh 18:25:05 but it really depends on what the individual warps are doing 18:25:09 i confused it at first, but only because i didn't notice the different spelling 18:25:22 it basically becomes an ABSTAIN if you get both sides within a warp 18:25:31 and you only ever do that if you have more threads in a warp than you actually need 18:26:03 e.g. you're doing an associative fold, the last few steps are probably going to not be very parallelizable so you just narrow the number of threads acting in a warp 18:26:14 "For example NVidia GPUs use scalar processors (with scalar instructions), no vectorization is necessary. On the contrary, ATI features 5d (or 4d) VLIW processors and for these is the vectorization crucial." i;m so confused 18:26:27 ......................... wuh 18:26:51 on top of it, graphics cards are sort-of inherently vectorized 18:27:18 hmm, it seems like cuda may be more reliable right now 18:28:14 in practice, you can't write portable GPU code with modern toolsets either 18:28:23 ais523: out of interest, how are nvidia mucking up cuda sdk? 18:28:42 particularly bad in CUDA because there are function calls to determine values about the GPU but they have to be compile-time constants for their only sensible uses (other than displaying to the user) 18:28:42 OH MY GOSH, YOU GUYS 18:28:47 eComStation had a release in May :P 18:28:50 elliott: what they did to the debugger, mostly 18:28:52 Apparently it's ... maintainedish? 18:29:09 (I was reminded by the word "warp" :P ) 18:29:33 as in, replaced it with one that sucked, didn't work, and was unsafe in the dereferencing-NULL-in-C sense (except it has quite a chance of hardlocking your GPU, forcing a reboot if you want your monitor to display anything and the GPU is also connected to the monitor, which is likely) 18:29:57 ais523: well, I don't particularly care about debugging, I should just get it right the fisrt time :P 18:30:20 so easy to leak memory by mistake, or dereference the wrong sort of pointer, etc 18:30:28 a GPU memory leak can make the system unusable for no obvious reason 18:55:26 -!- MSleep has joined. 18:56:21 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:56:29 -!- Behold has joined. 18:58:47 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:04:25 nice black-and-white advertisement picture on http://www.ecomstation.com/ - nothing says "new" like a black-and-white picture with ancient-style phones 19:04:51 also version *2* ... at least they could've inherited the OS/2 numbers and released number 6 19:07:09 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 19:07:15 -!- Behold has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:10:42 Black and white would looks pretty nice if they didn't have the rest of the website if shaded of blue. 19:10:58 nice new feature: "* Added BOOTDLY driver, which causes a 20 second boot delay [...]" 19:11:11 -!- MSleep has changed nick to MDude. 19:35:09 hmm, gpus are weir 19:35:10 d 19:35:56 nah, /CPUs/ are weird 19:36:22 oh, dammit, the relevant power of two is _slightly_ too large to do what i'd ideally want 19:36:25 but this should not surprise me 19:36:44 ais523: umm, how many threads can a GPU do at once, roughly? 19:36:57 depends on your definition of "at once" 19:37:06 in terms of "physically flowing through an ALU or equivalent", around 16 19:37:10 each thread basically doing DES and then a comparison on the result 19:37:13 although it looks like 32 to the user because of pipelining 19:37:28 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:37:31 however, GPUs can keep tens of thousands (or hundreds of thousands) of threads ready to context-switch in 19:37:33 ais523: well, "what should I divide the keyspace by" if the problem is mainly DES :-) 19:37:40 and in particular, will context-switch in threads while the other threads are waiting for memory access 19:38:20 and no out of GPU memory accesses, I think, apart from sending info to the CPU on an (unlikely) successful comparison -- I have no idea how GPUs work really so this may be bullshit 19:38:53 elliott: is a few hundred bytes of per-thread storage enough? 19:39:15 GPUs aren't so much designed for truly embarassingly parallel problems, as problems which are almost embarassingly parallel but with a few exceptions 19:39:18 like matrix multiplication 19:39:33 ais523: a few hundred bytes should be fine, yep 19:39:58 I mean, I'm no DES expert, but I doubt one round takes more than a few hundred bytes :) 19:40:22 "By taking the lowest 7 bits of each of the first eight characters of 19:40:22 the key, a 56-bit key is obtained. This 56-bit key is used to encrypt 19:40:22 repeatedly a constant string (usually a string consisting of all 19:40:22 zeros). The returned value points to the encrypted password, a series 19:40:22 of 13 printable ASCII characters (the first two characters represent 19:40:23 the salt itself). The return value points to static data whose content 19:40:25 is overwritten by each call. 19:40:27 Warning: The key space consists of 2**56 equal 7.2e16 possible values. 19:40:29 Exhaustive searches of this key space are possible using massively par‐ 19:40:30 is it iterated-DES you're cracking? 19:40:31 allel computers." 19:41:04 ais523: looks like 25 rounds 19:41:20 which I think counts as close to nothing, from what little I know of crypt 19:41:38 so after you do 25 rounds, you're going to need to initialize memory for another group of rounds 19:41:44 that's doable, though 19:42:01 ais523: I was just going to use a constant number of threads, and rewrite over the last used memory at the end 19:42:05 I don't think it's a situation in which you'll get massive gains from a GPU, just because CPUs are also quite good at that particular calculation 19:42:18 because you are actually CPU-bound, not memory-bound 19:42:23 GPUs have been used to give massive gains for very similar problems in the past, I think 19:42:25 GPUs will benefit simply from having more cores 19:42:27 well, I know 19:42:33 you'll probably get around x1000 on that 19:42:35 ais523: well, that's the benefit 19:42:39 but not, say, ten orders of magnitude 19:42:39 x1000 counts as massive here 19:42:52 so, umm, eight thousand concurrent DES'ers sound reasonable? 19:42:55 :-P 19:43:15 more like 128, I think 19:43:20 PAH 19:43:28 and practically 256 because they're running on alternate ends of the clock cycle 19:43:32 right 19:43:33 better than CPUs 19:43:41 which can presumably manage about eight, if you have a good CPU 19:43:47 yep 19:44:30 ok, if your quoted number is right, and I can do one crypt()+compare per millisecond, then I can exhaust the keyspace in only nine thousand years 19:44:40 I, umm, suspect a millisecond to be a rather pessimistic estimate 19:44:52 although I don't really have any idea how long it does atke 19:44:56 it might be simpler just to write the code and measure it 19:46:49 ais523: I suspect this exhaustive massively parallel search is talking about Deep Crack or something :P 19:47:07 yeah, seems so 19:48:50 ais523: hmm, I suppose writing the equivalent CPU code might actually be beneficial 19:49:06 I only have two cores on this machine, but on an eight-core machine it might just make a slight difference :-P 19:49:15 because of the CPU-boundness 19:56:13 `addquote OK, making myself emergency doctor on the advice of IRC. 19:56:16 636) OK, making myself emergency doctor on the advice of IRC. 19:58:00 please state the nature of your IRC emergency 20:00:15 i am assuming some very mauled dorfs here 20:00:34 no. Phantom_Hoover has appendicitis. 20:00:42 >_> 20:01:00 Phantom_Hoover: it has been pleasant to know you. 20:01:16 well, I wouldn't go that af.r 20:01:17 far. 20:01:32 oerjan, I'm a competent amateur surgeon! 20:01:42 im a competent bad surgeon 20:01:48 ever need some bad surgery done 20:01:49 im your man 20:01:51 elliott: i thought adding "well, with a few exceptions." would be impolite in the circumstances. 20:04:25 -!- monqy has joined. 20:13:13 elliott: hey my iwc premonition was right anyhow 20:13:27 oerjan: what, of it ending? 20:13:46 no, of Me becoming singled out 20:13:56 oh (what do you mean by that) 20:14:02 (im dont follow iwc, as regularly as i should) 20:14:25 i thought you were here when i mentioned i thought Me would have been chosen, not Steve 20:14:36 sorry chosen for what IM UNSMART 20:14:58 as hitler's body donor, sheesh 20:15:11 o 20:15:23 * elliott actually reads latest iwc 20:15:23 ah 20:15:39 oerjan: enjoy your annotations in german 20:16:00 O KAY 20:16:07 Unregelmäßigen Webcomic! 20:16:46 i don't think -en is the right suffix there. 20:17:02 fuck you nazis can germinate however they like. as can google translate. 20:17:07 ("Germinate" :DD:DDD) 20:17:10 :dddD:D:D 20:17:30 * oerjan swats elliott -----### 20:19:03 hmm, those fancy Intel encryption instructions 20:19:08 they're reasonable things like AES, right, not DES? :P 20:19:12 olsner probably knows 20:19:58 Yes, AES 20:20:13 Deewiant: but why not DES, too? 20:20:17 https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/AES_instruction_set 20:20:19 that's the real question :| 20:20:27 hm i wonder if this will mean that hitler will continue being a regular character, but now will look like DMM instead... 20:20:54 that _is_ brilliant. 20:21:19 DES sure is complicated when you're sleepy 20:25:47 sleep sure is complicated when you're using DES 20:27:02 true 20:37:56 Phantom_Hoover: oerjan: Hey you, remind me to rip out haskell-mode and install haskell-emacs tomorrow. 20:38:18 @tell elliott Remember to install haskell-emacs! 20:38:18 Consider it noted. 20:38:20 Hopefully I can coerce it into doing what I want. 20:38:20 elliott: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. 20:38:22 @tell elliott Remember to install haskell-emacs! 20:38:23 Consider it noted. 20:38:29 Phantom_Hoover: dude that is so un-okay also, what is that messages 20:38:29 elliott: You have 4 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. 20:39:02 Phantom_Hoover: I am afraid you will have to re-send these 20:39:02 elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 20:39:04 oh 20:39:33 Phantom_Hoover: Also remind me to re-install ido-mode because ido-mode is great. 20:39:44 Hmm wait 20:39:56 ^ul (?tell elliott Hey install ido-mode, it's great.) 20:39:56 elliott: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. 20:40:01 fung?? 20:40:01 OMG 20:40:05 fizze???? 20:40:06 OJSIDFDOJFODIF 20:40:09 fungot ;_; 20:40:15 `echo ?tell elliott Hey install ido-mode, it's great. 20:40:16 ​?tell elliott Hey install ido-mode, it's great. 20:40:19 fizzie ;_; 20:40:23 `echo @tell elliott Hey install ido-mode, it's great. 20:40:26 ​@tell elliott Hey install ido-mode, it's great. 20:40:28 Gregor: FASCISTJIOS 20:40:39 ummm ummm 20:40:43 hey ais523 20:40:49 hi 20:40:55 if I sent lines at you prefixed with QQQ will you send them back to the channel, assuming they're not malicious 20:41:43 probably not, I'm too tired to repeat them sensibly 20:41:50 ONLY ONE WAY TO FIND OUT 20:41:53 ais523: QQQ?tell elliott Hey install ido-mode, it's great. 20:41:56 or to constantly monitor the channel to do that 20:41:59 Wait I should do redundancy. 20:42:02 Phantom_Hoover: QQQ?tell elliott Hey install ido-mode, it's great. 20:42:10 also, I'd be a little unlikely to do it without your comment earlier 20:42:24 is lambdabot ignoring the other bots here? 20:42:41 EgoBot and HackEgo prefix punctuation with unicode 20:42:44 because they're dum stupid 20:42:45 and fungot 20:42:47 fungot 20:42:48 is not 20:42:50 with us ;____; 20:42:54 WAIT 20:42:57 -!- elliott has changed nick to notelliottatall. 20:42:58 @tell elliott you wanted the bot to remind you about ido-mode, right? 20:42:58 Consider it noted. 20:43:00 we've got no fun 20:43:12 ?tell elliott Hey install ido-mode, it's great. 20:43:12 Consider it noted. 20:43:30 ?tell elliott Also: change the colour scheme emacs' default colour scheme is terrible honestly you are a bum. 20:43:30 Consider it noted. 20:43:34 oh, prefixing punctuation with unicode is a smart way to avoid a botloop 20:43:38 ?tell elliott_ Get rid of that underscore goddammit 20:43:38 Consider it noted. 20:43:43 ?tell elliott__ We are no longer friends 20:43:43 Consider it noted. 20:43:45 -!- notelliottatall has changed nick to elliott. 20:43:48 Beautiful 20:43:48 elliott: You have 5 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. 20:43:52 No, lambdabot, no. 20:43:57 umm, wait 20:44:00 what character is it? now I want to design a bot that uses it as a command character 20:44:02 it won't remind me I have any tomorrow 20:44:08 ais523: zero width non-breaking space i think 20:44:31 ok, umm, someone ?tell elliott something after I leave 20:44:31 do you mean zero-width joiner? 20:44:37 ais523: not sure, check yourself :P 20:45:56 Phantom_Hoover: OK I am entrusting you to remind me to check my messages tomorrow by ?telling me after I leave which will be momentarily. 20:45:59 If you disappoint me 20:46:00 your soul 20:46:01 shall end 20:50:20 but how do we know Phantom_Hoover has a soul? 20:50:36 oerjan, I'm a ghost. 20:50:42 I am /literally nothing but soul/. 20:50:48 aha 20:54:08 ?tell elliott something before I leave 20:54:09 Consider it noted. 20:54:26 Sgeo: no 20:54:26 elliott: You have 6 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. 20:54:27 no 20:54:28 after i leave 20:54:29 or it does 20:54:30 that 20:55:40 !help 20:55:41 ​help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help . 20:55:44 !info 20:55:44 ​EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/ . Cheers and patches (preferably hg bundles) can be sent to Richards@codu.org , PayPal donations can be sent to AKAQuinn@hotmail.com , complaints can be sent to /dev/null 20:55:59 Vorpal: ? 21:10:23 gah, Yahoo! are getting rid of their classic interface 21:10:54 (the one that actually makes it possible to send sanely-formatted interfaces without having to rely on SMTP forwarding) 21:11:33 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:17:47 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:24:03 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 21:25:52 elliott: I was looking for the repo 21:26:55 also the Swedish mirror for kernel.org just died it seems. 21:29:26 -!- kwertii has joined. 21:45:24 ?tell elliott You're not a doctor. 21:45:25 Consider it noted. 21:47:44 ?tell lambdabot I secretly love you. 21:47:44 Nice try ;) 21:48:20 NICE CONDITIONALS LAMBDABOT 21:48:24 SEXY SEXY CONDITIONALS 21:49:14 ?tell CakeProphet you have a weird idea about what the word "secretly" means 21:49:14 Consider it noted. 21:50:47 ?tell lambdabot I not-so-secretly love you! 21:50:47 Nice try ;) 21:50:48 Damnit! 21:51:27 -!- Deewiant has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:51:35 -!- Deewiant has joined. 21:52:51 ?tell fungot that sword alone 21:52:51 Consider it noted. 21:53:22 fungot is not present... :( 21:53:22 CakeProphet: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. 21:56:44 ?tell lambdabot I secretly love you. 21:56:53 @vixen I hear CakeProphet fancies you. 21:56:54 awesome 21:57:06 @vixen I'll leave this to you two. 21:57:06 there are a lot of weirdos on here 21:57:24 @vixen Come now, it's natural to take a passing interest in the affairs of others. 21:57:25 right now? 21:57:34 @vixen As good a time as any. 21:57:35 good good 21:58:39 -!- GuestIceKovu has joined. 21:59:19 @vixen how does polar bear know what apples is? 21:59:19 how? it depends... 21:59:38 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 21:59:47 @vixen yow!!! 21:59:48 Crazy little wanker! 22:02:32 @vixen Will you marry me? o_O_o 22:02:32 i think you know the answer to that one, silly 22:02:43 @vixen if I ask a question will you say the same thing? 22:02:43 oh, but only if, right? 22:02:52 @vixen what if I yell!!? 22:02:53 i don't know, what? 22:02:59 @vixen I am yelling! 22:02:59 have you ever scubadived? 22:03:23 @vixen no 22:03:23 no? 22:03:25 @vixen no 22:03:25 i didn't think so 22:03:46 @vixen no 22:03:46 i didn't think so 22:04:49 @vixen sauerkraut!!! 22:04:49 am I the only person you're talking to? 22:05:15 @vixen yes 22:05:15 you agree? 22:05:17 -!- nys has joined. 22:05:19 @vixen yes 22:05:19 i thought so 22:05:43 CakeProphet, honestly, don't you have anything more to say? 22:06:29 is it because you feel don't you have anything more to say that you ask questions honestly? 22:06:32 ..... 22:08:46 cleverbot is not clever because it s a borg-like hivemind of all of the stupid people it talks to. 22:08:59 @vixen lutefisk! 22:08:59 Fuck me like im a school boy 22:09:10 @vixen School girl, surely? 22:09:11 who's to say? 22:09:15 lol 22:09:31 @vixen I was under the impression that your gender was firmly established. 22:09:32 uhuh 22:11:28 oerjan: apparently Vixen has a thing for traditional Norwegian cuisine. 22:11:50 or bastardizations thereof 22:15:47 -!- kwertii has quit (Quit: bye). 22:16:50 What is two plus two? 22:16:51 Yes. 22:16:55 STUPID CLEVERBOT 22:17:02 me ragecloses 22:17:21 my rage has no time for /'s 22:18:21 the rage of bully automatons 22:21:08 * oerjan suddenly realizes the pun in rube ~ bully automaton 22:21:28 :) 22:23:44 oerjan, where? 22:24:13 Phantom_Hoover: a bully is a rube 22:24:34 That occurred to me but I dismissed it as stupid. 22:25:10 * oerjan hits Phantom_Hoover with the saucepan ===\__/ 22:25:23 there's no such thing as a stupid pun. 22:25:37 er, excuse me 22:25:42 there's no such thing as a stupid fun. 22:25:45 BAHAHAHAHAHA 22:25:46 ... 22:25:59 ic 22:26:35 don't you mean carrots? 22:26:47 * oerjan runs away _fast_ 22:27:00 I don't really understand. 22:27:08 good, good 22:27:14 * Sgeo does 22:27:31 it's a reddit meme, and also a meta-meme of hating it 22:27:45 (for being stupid) 22:47:19 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: FireFly). 22:48:26 * Phantom_Hoover → sleep 22:48:27 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:51:00 bacon? 22:54:49 "Good God. Mustafar is Dwarf Fortress, isn't it. That explains EVERYTHING! The random violence. The emo drama. The insanity." 22:54:57 (comment from the iwc forum) 22:55:35 kmc: no, carrots 22:56:11 ok maybe bacon has reached that point too. but the carrots essentially _started_ there. 22:57:48 carrots: my anti-bacon 23:22:59 -!- zzo38 has joined.