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00:34:24 <ais523> gah, I just read http://esolangs.org/wiki/German
00:34:43 <ais523> is that even, technically, a language? it just looks like a really inefficient binary encoding format
00:35:17 <ais523> I'm trying to figure out if it's even worse than a BF equivalent or not
00:43:04 <pikhq> Shortening (the hydrogenated vegetable oil product) both disturbs and confuses me.
00:46:13 <oerjan> he could at least have spelt Bier correctly *whistles innocently*
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02:32:55 <Sgeo|web> It is a bad idea to resort to doing arithmatic by hand on an exam because you want to be a show-off and don't want to ask to borrow a calculator
02:35:54 <Sgeo|web> I ran out of time, for the first time in a very long time
02:36:57 <pikhq> Shame the exam required nontrivial arithmetic. Irrelevancies.
02:38:31 <olsner> at (my) university, they never allow calculators on math exams (though I think they allow it in e.g. physics, where the results might be more interesting than the working)
02:39:54 <pikhq> I've generally been used to either "you may not use calculators" or "sure, I guess you can use calculators, but I doubt it'll help".
02:40:48 <pikhq> It's not that likely that fast arithmetic is going to in any way aid you in demonstrating conceptual understanding, after all.
02:41:37 <olsner> in high school we had to do some things with a calculator though, but only because the ability to use a calculator is part of the math curriculum
02:42:21 <olsner> never figured out why, iirc they claimed I would need it in university
02:43:19 <pikhq> If they wanted to teach you something useful, they'd teach you programming, and probably the usage of a CAS.
02:43:29 <Sgeo|web> pikhq: Calculators were allowed. I didn't have one.
02:43:37 <pikhq> Computer algebra system.
02:45:05 <Sgeo|web> And didn't ask for one until _after_ I finished doing the problem that involved a rather annoying amount of arithmetic.
02:45:14 <Sgeo|web> And noted how little time I had left
02:46:22 <pikhq> Sgeo|web: I'm being annoyed that a calculator was allowed and actually useful.
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02:47:29 <pikhq> Sgeo|web: The ability to perform trivial-yet-annoying arithmetic quickly, calculator or not, is almost certainly an utter irrelevancy.
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15:15:08 <Vorpal> <delegate decode="sid" command=""mrsidgeodecode" -if sid -i "%i" -of tif -o "%o" > "%u""/> <-- why the fuck did they go for xml for a config file that basically only contains lines like that. And why did they put it in an attribute. The " thingy everywhere is hideous.
15:15:17 <Vorpal> (from /etc/ImageMagick/delegates.xml)
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16:28:53 <Ngevd> !numberwang Fifty twelve
16:28:53 <EgoBot> I'm sorry, but Brazil isn't a vegetable!
16:29:10 <EgoBot> perl print (grep (/\d/, <>) ? q(That's numberwang!) : q(I'm sorry, but Brazil isn't a vegetable!))
16:29:34 <EgoBot> I'm sorry, but Brazil isn't a vegetable!
16:32:34 <Ngevd> Someone who doesn't get the preview tool has made an esolang
16:34:24 <Ngevd> Not a bad esolang either
16:37:02 <Ngevd> It's a language with geometric output
16:40:59 <Ngevd> Reasonably interesting
16:42:34 <monqy> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Geom
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16:57:40 <CakeProphet> "An expression is a statement without a semicolon"
16:57:53 <CakeProphet> bad description of what an expression is or worst?
16:58:57 <ais523> elliott: depends on the language
16:59:04 <ais523> in ICA, statements are a special case of expressions
16:59:07 <CakeProphet> "A statement is an expression with a semicolon [1]. Multiple statements, surrounded by acccolades ('{' and '}') form a compound statement "
16:59:12 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/CUTLASS
16:59:14 <ais523> (I suspect in most languages it's the other way round)
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16:59:21 <CakeProphet> expression are statements or statements are expressions? help
16:59:31 <fizzie> CakeProphet: You keep removing the [1]s; it's not just any thing, it's a thing with a citation.
16:59:38 <ais523> elliott: looks copied from somewhere
16:59:42 <fizzie> Well, at least from the first one.
16:59:48 <elliott> (cur) (last) 10:55, 30 September 2008 147.89.224.69 (Talk) (Fairly major rewrite from someone involved in the Cutlass Kit 9 project! I hope this is useful.)
16:59:59 <elliott> I suspect 147.89.224.75 is the same editor
17:00:08 <elliott> and who the hell knows what CUTLASS is
17:00:16 <CakeProphet> fizzie: even if it's cited it's still a horrible definition.
17:00:19 <elliott> but the page has been around for four years...
17:00:24 <ais523> yep, no results on a quick copyvio search
17:00:34 <ais523> the page really needs bancstarisation, I just don't know what that is
17:00:49 <elliott> it needs moving to another wiki :P
17:01:06 <fizzie> CakeProphet: Also not just any citation, but a citation to a Dutch book.
17:01:25 <CakeProphet> plant I/O and control loops. botany is good yes.
17:02:48 <CakeProphet> The Cutlass language contains an extensive library of functions specially tailored for process control applications. These include mode and history-dependent functions such as integrators, filters, PID controllers, as well as a range of data-reduction routines and steam tables.
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17:04:32 <CakeProphet> a steampunk language would be done entirely with punch cards, and would player pianos.
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17:06:40 <Sgeo|web> Vorpal: Perry Bible Fellowship
17:06:57 <ais523> hey, is it ping random people with random phrases day?
17:07:05 <ais523> elliott: matrix of solidity
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17:07:18 <elliott> Oh wow, Xubuntu uses xscreensaver by default
17:07:27 <ais523> is that awesome or awful?
17:07:30 <CakeProhpet> ais523: ordered multiset of dumbledore dies
17:07:44 <ais523> isn't an ordered multiset just... a list?
17:07:46 -!- Ngevd has joined.
17:07:51 <ais523> well, equivalent to one
17:08:02 <ais523> but without the assumptions on internal implementation?
17:08:11 <monqy> list of dumbledore dies
17:08:13 <elliott> a "list" doesn't assume those either
17:08:19 <ais523> hmm, who here would say that "list" to them implies "accessing the first element is faster than accessing the last element"
17:08:27 <elliott> hmm, I have exactly two Xfce annoyances
17:08:29 <CakeProhpet> ais523: lists aren't technical enough to be maths
17:08:32 <ais523> I've known people who would say it does, and who would say it isn't
17:08:32 <elliott> one is major, one is not so major
17:08:35 <ais523> assuming a reasonable length
17:08:43 <elliott> ais523: Python calls dynamic-arraylists lists
17:08:54 <ais523> as do many other languages
17:08:54 <fizzie> Or xlockmore, I guess.
17:09:05 <ais523> fizzie: a screensaver that's also a pager?
17:09:12 <ais523> elliott: ArrayList in Java, at least
17:09:18 <elliott> ais523: that's an arraylist :P
17:09:19 <ais523> is a List, which is hte general term
17:09:35 <fizzie> ais523: Sadly, no. It's an "xlock" variant that has "more" screen-hacks in it.
17:09:51 <CakeProhpet> ais523: but in STL list is a doubly linked list.
17:09:53 <elliott> ais523: the closest/most natural thing Haskell has to a list has O(log(min(i,n-i))) indexing
17:09:55 <ais523> CakeProhpet: data List = Empty | Cons List List
17:10:08 <elliott> where n is the length of the list
17:10:46 <ais523> "list" to me has a mild implication of "implemented in a linked list style behind the scenes"
17:12:02 <CakeProhpet> ais523: also I think the formalism for a "list" would be sequences.
17:12:41 <ais523> it's interesting that the operations of "head" and "tail" are reasonably implementable with most provided sorts of lists
17:12:51 <ais523> even if they aren't linked lists behind the scenes
17:13:00 <ais523> e.g. you can point to the second element of an array in C
17:13:07 <elliott> ais523: Only immutable ones.
17:13:11 <CakeProhpet> tail isn't quite so reasonable in mutable cases..
17:13:21 <elliott> ais523: Also, you can't implement cons easily for C arrays.
17:13:23 <ais523> it's hard to work out what "tail" means in the mutable case
17:13:25 <elliott> So it's not really list-tail.
17:13:35 <ais523> and having worked on Overload, I'm not sure I want to
17:14:07 <CakeProhpet> well the sane way to do tail would be to make a copy.
17:14:47 <CakeProhpet> Overload doesn't sound like the name of a sane language.
17:15:21 <ais523> well, isn't, I assume it still exists
17:15:26 <CakeProhpet> but you could certainly do pointer shenanigans and return the original uncopied tail.
17:15:27 <ais523> but I never finished it as the insanity got too much for me
17:15:36 <monqy> speaking of feather
17:15:38 <ais523> it's not like Feather, it was a perfectly ordinary sort of insanity
17:15:51 <ais523> that could be fixed with persistence, but the resulting language would be insufficiently awesome
17:16:12 <ais523> and oh, how pointer-shenaningans Overload was
17:16:28 <elliott> ais523: so anyway, I recommend Debian+Xfce or Xubuntu as a migration path for Ubuntu users
17:16:34 <CakeProhpet> in STL C++, tail on most data structures would require a copy I believe.
17:16:39 <ais523> elliott: so what are the two issues with xfce?
17:16:44 <elliott> they're very unlikely to fuck up Xfce, and it can be made to work basically exactly like gnome two
17:16:55 <ais523> I take it those aren't the two issues?
17:17:04 <elliott> ais523: One is with the panel, this is the less important one; the window list in the taskbar can't be rearranged
17:17:25 <ais523> `addquote <ais523> elliott: so what are the two issues with xfce? <elliott> they're very unlikely to fuck up Xfce, and it can be made to work basically exactly like gnome two
17:17:25 <elliott> ais523: The more important one is that scrolling a background window focuses and raises it with default xfwm settings and I can't figure out how to fix it -- but you can just use another wm with xfce
17:17:29 <HackEgo> 688) <ais523> elliott: so what are the two issues with xfce? <elliott> they're very unlikely to fuck up Xfce, and it can be made to work basically exactly like gnome two
17:17:44 <elliott> ais523: indeed, even Metacity would work fine
17:17:48 <elliott> The following NEW packages will be installed:
17:17:49 <elliott> libgnome2-common libmetacity-private0 metacity metacity-common
17:17:53 <ais523> elliott: hmm, how often do you scroll background windows? I do, but only occasionally
17:17:54 <elliott> not an unreasonable set of dependencies
17:18:00 <ais523> yep, that's reasonable
17:18:07 <ais523> would I be shot for using xfce with Compiz?
17:18:10 <elliott> ais523: e.g., I have IRC on top but am reading a background web page
17:18:23 <CakeProhpet> elliott: is metacity pronoucned "meta city" or "meTAcity" (with the stress on ta)
17:18:23 <elliott> ais523: and, well, I wouldn't like you; both xfwm and metacity can do compositing and shadows
17:18:25 <ais523> ah, I prefer to alt-tab then
17:18:42 <ais523> what about contrast change?
17:18:47 <elliott> (alt-scroll on the title bar)
17:19:11 <ais523> zoom is particularly useful for checking that subpixel algos are working properly
17:19:37 <ais523> hmm, I don't think I've used color-inverse for ages since I discovered contrast change
17:19:41 <ais523> I like a dark screen at night
17:19:52 <elliott> ais523: the only results I can find about zoom+xfwm are pages telling you how to overcomplicatedly set up compiz with xfce
17:20:00 <elliott> so I'd say just use compiz :P
17:20:16 <ais523> for a while I had Epiphany force-override colors used by webpages, but webpages don't seem to really like that behaviour nowadays
17:20:22 <elliott> ais523: it'll work fine, although the default Xubuntu theme is nice and depends on a xfwm theme to be nic
17:20:41 <elliott> oh, looks like someone ported it to compiz :P
17:20:46 <ais523> oh, I'm used to bad themes, at least
17:20:51 <ais523> given that I'm often not on my own computer
17:21:13 <ais523> although the one I'm using at the moment is pretty nice (it's the New Wave theme that was proposed for Ubuntu but never accepted)
17:21:23 <CakeProhpet> An infinite binary sequence can represent a formal language (a set of strings) by setting the n th bit of the sequence to 1 if and only if the n th string (in shortlex order) is in the language. Therefore, the study of complexity classes, which are sets of languages, may be regarded as studying sets of infinite sequences.
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17:22:14 <ais523> I understand it, but it doesn't seem particularly useful
17:22:39 <ais523> basically, because programs close to each other in shortlex order don't necessarily have anything to do with each other at all
17:23:12 <elliott> ais523: I actually really like Xubuntu's default theme: http://ompldr.org/vYWswMA, http://ompldr.org/vYWp6eg
17:23:38 <CakeProhpet> ais523: oh wait I understand I think. but not what it has to do with complexity classes.
17:23:43 <ais523> a bit like the Mac brushed-metal theme but simpler
17:24:11 <elliott> it's more like the smooth style seen Leopard onwards
17:24:18 <ais523> hmm, the min/max/close buttons look misaligned
17:24:23 <elliott> brushed metal is this abomination: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:TigerCalc.png
17:24:26 <Sgeo|web> Chrome as opposed to Chromium?
17:24:43 <ais523> elliott: ouch, you're right
17:24:49 <elliott> ais523: hmm... minimise looks slightly higher than it should be, but it hasn't bothered me yet
17:24:52 <ais523> yep, the close button is centred half a pixel higher than it should be
17:24:54 <CakeProhpet> ais523: is there operations you could perform on these binary sequences that would be useful in studying complexity classes?
17:24:55 <elliott> and I think it's pixel-correct
17:24:57 <ais523> I just zoomed in to check
17:25:01 <CakeProhpet> ais523: maybe the adjacency of the sequence terms is irrelevant.
17:25:14 <elliott> ais523: using compiz would solve that :P
17:25:20 <elliott> since the compiz version is based on another theme
17:25:23 <elliott> rather than being a straight port
17:25:32 <elliott> http://xfce-look.org/CONTENT/content-pre3/143376-3.png
17:25:33 <ais523> I think it's because they were trying to snap shapes to pixels
17:26:02 <ais523> bleh, I can't tell on that one even zoomed in, because it's pretty heavily antialiased
17:26:06 <ais523> which I suppose makes it more likely to be lined up right
17:26:20 <elliott> it doesn't look more antialiased to me
17:26:33 <elliott> the buttons seem identical here
17:26:40 <ais523> oh, I'm stupid, I zoomed in on a zoomed-out version
17:26:52 <elliott> ais523: you can turn off zoom antialiasing with compiz
17:26:52 <ais523> and it's the downscaler algo that misaligned it
17:26:55 <ais523> by trying to round to pixels
17:27:08 <ais523> oh, I meant the original was antialiased, not the zoom
17:27:47 <elliott> ais523: well, it wouldn't be a problem if your zoomer used nearest neighbour
17:28:05 <ais523> CakeProhpet: pretty obviously, just run all the possibilities one after the other
17:28:23 <ais523> elliott: blame Firefox, I guess
17:28:32 <elliott> ais523: umm, but you said it was zoomed out in Firefox
17:28:35 <elliott> so it should be original size
17:28:36 <fizzie> "Three Rings: This article is about the fictional artifacts. For the video game developer, see Three Rings Design. For the Three Rings on the Ring of Light, see Xbox 360 technical problems. For the T-Pain album, see Thr33 Ringz."
17:28:45 <ais523> elliott: it was the downscaled thumbnail in Firefox
17:28:49 <fizzie> "Three Rings on the Ring of Light, see Xbox 360 technical problems".
17:28:49 <ais523> I forgot to click to expand
17:28:59 <fizzie> There's some sort of style mismatch there.
17:29:00 <ais523> then I used Compiz to zoom in on that
17:29:10 <elliott> how small is your Fx window? that image is tiny
17:29:13 <ais523> fizzie: the Ring of Light is the official name
17:29:26 <fizzie> ais523: That is a nice name.
17:29:29 <ais523> maximised on 1366x768, with some toolbars/taskbars in the way
17:29:36 <CakeProhpet> ais523: but PTIME != NPTIME. or, well, we don't know still.
17:29:59 <ais523> well, the PSPACE/NPSPACE argument obviously doesn't apply to P=?NP
17:30:18 <ais523> oh right, IMPORTANT NOTATIONAL QUESTION that came up today: how do you write the operation of "add the same integer to every element of a list"?
17:30:39 <ais523> I tried that, but was accused of that being disjoint union
17:30:48 <ais523> well, it was a set, not a list
17:31:09 <ais523> I was using n .+ list as a placeholder (it's what MATLAB calls the operation, and it's the only widely-used language I've ever seen with it built in)
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17:33:27 <elliott> WHAT FUCKING KEY DO I KEEP PRESSING
17:33:37 <CakeProhpet> elliott: what was that language you were talking about that's awesome and uses arrays or something?
17:33:40 <elliott> Ah yes, I kept pressing the "bad" key.
17:34:11 <CakeProhpet> the programs look like Perl mixed with brainfuck.
17:34:20 <ais523> elliott: some sort of middle-click where it shouldn't be (the usual reason for me to accidentally part a channel)?
17:34:23 <monqy> CakeProhpet: not at all
17:34:35 <fizzie> ais523: You add a (same) scalar to each element of a list in MATLAB with just plain old regular "+". There is no ".+" operator.
17:34:51 <ais523> I've used really old MATLAB, and GAUSS before that
17:35:02 <ais523> elliott: control-W? seems a little hard to typo
17:35:08 <ais523> esc? seems a weird keybinding for a client to use
17:35:09 <monqy> Ngevd: j# is something entirely diffferent
17:35:25 <fizzie> ais523: There is a ".*" and "./" to differentiate elementwise multiplication/division from matrix product/right-division.
17:35:27 <ais523> and F# is an OCaml clone linked up to the .NET standard library
17:35:34 <ais523> fizzie: perhaps that's what I was thinking of
17:35:36 <fizzie> ais523: But you can multiply a list by a scalar with plain "*" anyway.
17:35:48 -!- elliott_ has joined.
17:35:52 <ais523> ofc, matrix addition is just + anyway
17:36:16 <elliott_> I think I'll just switch to an xmonad setup when I get the desktop
17:36:34 <CakeProhpet> J looks more verbose than the language I'm thinking of.
17:36:53 <CakeProhpet> I just haven't seen many examples of the code.
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17:37:50 <CakeProhpet> elliott: is it J or K that you like a lot?
17:37:56 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
17:38:06 <monqy> dont worry elliott_s here
17:39:04 -!- elliott__ has joined.
17:39:23 <ais523> CakeProhpet: no, 1 * 1 is 1
17:39:37 <ais523> gah that name is annoying, I keep thinking my tab-complete typoed
17:40:58 <monqy> except it didn't survive
17:41:34 -!- elliott_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
17:42:00 <monqy> by asking elliott__
17:42:05 <elliott__> fizzie: Hey, you can make tig's log nicer.
17:42:20 <CakeProhpet> monqy: each underscored elliot is a fabrication of the previous
17:43:24 <monqy> instead of using underscores i should append ys
17:43:32 -!- boily has joined.
17:43:32 <monqy> monqyyyyyyyyyyyyyy (a bad day for connections)
17:43:51 <CakeProhpet> I should use various misspellings and backwardsizations of my name.
17:44:05 -!- CakeProhpet has changed nick to CakeProphet.
17:45:10 <CakeProphet> elliott__: but yeah you never answered my question visibly. I double checked my buffer.
17:45:12 -!- Ngevd has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
17:45:47 <CakeProphet> K looks pretty similar however. I wonder if it's better or worse.
17:46:01 <elliott__> ais523: is it just me or has the method of reporting crashes got more complicated in Ubuntu?
17:46:12 <ais523> I don't know, as I haven't had one for a while
17:46:15 <CakeProphet> K isn't functional like J kind of is right?
17:46:16 <ais523> the benefits of LTS, I guess
17:46:27 * CakeProphet doesn't understand either very well, other than they work like APL.
17:46:34 <elliott__> CakeProphet: in which way do you think J is functional, in which way do you think K does not have this property
17:46:56 <elliott__> CakeProphet: can't answer then s.r.y.
17:46:59 <ais523> oh, IIRC KDE and Gnome each had their own bugreporter
17:47:00 <CakeProphet> elliott__: I am probing around and getting answers.
17:47:12 <elliott__> ais523: too bad Pidgin is part of neither
17:47:19 <ais523> indeed, that's what I just realised
17:47:24 <monqy> CakeProphet: say bad things, get corrected, no remorse
17:47:49 <CakeProphet> monqy: it's a common way people converse...
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17:49:56 <Vorpal> ais523: hm maybe you know the answer to this question: how does that lever on the back of a car mirror that reduces the blinding effect from car lights behind actually work
17:50:03 <CakeProphet> ah so they are both functional just in different ways.
17:50:19 <ais523> Vorpal: I'm afraid I don't know what you're referring to
17:50:21 <Vorpal> it just seems to tilt the mirror but somehow still show the same area, but with less light?
17:50:27 <Vorpal> ais523: you have a driving license?
17:50:40 <Vorpal> well who else could know
17:50:40 <ais523> giving me one would probably be criminal negligence
17:51:01 <ais523> I can't concentrate really heavily for long periods of time at a time
17:51:04 <Vorpal> ais523: thing is: you know that cars have three mirrors? One on each side and one in the middle inside?
17:51:09 <monqy> CakeProphet: would you prefer a what
17:51:09 <ais523> I can stay focused, but that's not the same as concentrating
17:51:12 <ais523> yep, I know what a wing mirror is
17:51:20 <monqy> CakeProphet: what????
17:51:21 <ais523> but I don't know what the lever you're referring to is
17:51:23 <Vorpal> ais523: I'm interested in the mirror inside, not the ones on the side
17:51:26 <CakeProphet> monqy: "hi please repeat yourself in a more verbose way"
17:51:32 <Vorpal> the lever is on the internal mirror
17:51:35 <ais523> ah, I don't think I've seen that adjusted while driving
17:51:40 <ais523> and it's just to change the angle, IIRC
17:51:42 <monqy> monqy: hi please repeat yourself in a way that makes sense
17:51:56 <elliott__> <CakeProphet> ah so they are both functional just in different ways.
17:51:56 <ais523> although, the obvious explanation is that it tilts the mirror so that the car lights are no longer reflecting into your eyes, but miss your eyes
17:52:04 <ais523> and the same area is still mostly visible, just on a different part of the mirror
17:52:10 <elliott__> Neither J nor K have full first-class function support, either.
17:52:22 <Vorpal> ais523: well if it is dark it has a kind of lever on it that you flip and suddenly the light from behind is reduced, useful when driving in the dark when you get strong headlights from behind
17:52:31 <Vorpal> it is just that the manner it works in is pure magic to me
17:52:36 <ais523> it probably just changes it between two possible settings
17:52:43 <ais523> on the basis that one of them won't reflect into your eyes
17:52:57 <CakeProphet> monqy: J is influenced by FP/FL, K is influenced by Scheme. Differently. Influenced.
17:53:13 <Vorpal> ais523: well, it seems to show the same area behind kind of. As in the position of the headlights doesn't seem to shift, just be reduced
17:53:35 <monqy> CakeProphet: and how does this make them different
17:53:40 <Vorpal> ais523: it does move the view *while* you move the lever. Kind of jumps up then down.
17:53:51 <CakeProphet> elliott__: but the lack of first-class functions definitely strays away from my definition of functional
17:53:54 <monqy> CakeProphet: my question was how are they functional in different ways, not what were their influences
17:54:06 <monqy> CakeProphet: your definition of functional: it kind of sucks
17:54:13 <Vorpal> oh found it on wikipedia
17:54:15 <CakeProphet> monqy: I don't know. I don't actually know these languages I am reading about them and attempting to learn from you guys
17:54:44 <Vorpal> ais523: there is some very cleaver stuff going on there: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Rear-view_mirror#Dimming
17:54:52 <CakeProphet> monqy: your conversation skills suck. I'm going to go do something else now.
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17:59:22 <fizzie> Vorpal: Oh, I've wondered about that too.
18:00:16 <elliott__> I wish I could eliminate this Template Haskell
18:01:02 <CakeProphet> oh, I assumed you were using the "kill" definition of eliminate.
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18:01:20 <elliott__> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1071201/why-does-list-comprehension-using-a-zip-object-results-in-an-empty-list
18:03:06 <ais523> so zip basically returns a lazy list except that you can only read it once
18:03:14 <CakeProphet> I think instead of just turning all of the builtin's into generators they should have just moved most of itertools into __builtin__
18:03:44 <CakeProphet> and zip still does what it does in Python 2.x
18:03:59 <elliott__> ais523: it's just that for advances it
18:04:08 <elliott__> rather than, e.g. asking it for an iterator and then advancing it
18:04:13 <elliott__> because it's already an iterator (generator)
18:04:38 <ais523> I suppose "why would you ask an iterator for an iterator" is the implied question there
18:04:52 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Vorpal: Oh, I've wondered about that too. <-- yeah it is quite ingenious
18:05:21 <elliott__> ais523: because see SO question? :P
18:05:41 <ais523> I'm just trying to understand how the design decision question happened
18:06:42 <CakeProphet> I wonder if making a copy of the iterator would work as well.
18:07:09 -!- augur has joined.
18:07:12 <olsner> I'd guess the design decision went something like "herp derp"
18:07:59 <elliott__> Can someone type two five five five six
18:08:30 <CakeProphet> elliott__: my eyesight is getting pretty bad.
18:08:35 <olsner> CakeProphet: I think python is one of the most herp of all the derp languages
18:08:46 <CakeProphet> python is actually not incredibly terrible.
18:09:00 <elliott__> ais523: turns out the answer was no
18:09:21 <CakeProphet> to date the worst language I have used is C++
18:09:33 <ais523> CakeProphet: how much esolang programming have you done?
18:09:37 <fizzie> elliott__: What about it?-)
18:09:45 <CakeProphet> ais523: not a great amount. but esolangs are exempt
18:09:45 <ais523> admittedly, C++ is pretty bad on the scale of "real" languages
18:09:57 <CakeProphet> ais523: people don't write space shuttle code in brainfuck.
18:10:05 <elliott__> How do you dereference an array in bash anyway
18:10:25 <fizzie> $ARRAY[0] and $ARRAY[1] and so on. IIRC.
18:10:29 <ais523> it's .[] to deref arrays in OCaml
18:10:39 <Ngevd> ais523, is c.intercal.org.uk your site?
18:10:40 <ais523> .[] is to take characters strings
18:10:46 <ais523> Ngevd: no, it's Claudio Calvelli's site
18:10:55 <ais523> which might seem a little weird given the circumstances
18:10:58 <Ngevd> Would you tell him it is not working
18:11:00 <ais523> but hey, it's INTERCAL
18:11:03 <elliott__> coproc 'nc -l 25556 | tee "$clientlog"'
18:11:07 <elliott__> fizzie: Does that look right to you? :p
18:11:09 <fizzie> Well, I guess you might need ${ARRAY[0]}.
18:11:32 <ais523> in fact, intercal.org.uk seems down generally
18:11:41 <ais523> that is, the subdomains that should exist
18:11:44 <ais523> (the parent domain shouldn't)
18:12:00 <ais523> I'll give it some time to come back up before emailing him
18:12:16 <ais523> what were you trying to find there?
18:12:27 <CakeProphet> hmmm I wonder how you could get the benefits of phantom types without the syntactic overhead.
18:12:37 <CakeProphet> so that you don't have to explicitly write the phantom parameter everywhere
18:12:53 <elliott__> "iw ish I could track an addiotioanl piece with my data ... but without specifying it...."
18:13:43 <CakeProphet> but I can't think of a good way to do that.
18:14:13 <fizzie> elliott__: Sounds like it should work. I was just thinking about making the most useless use of cat ever made, and doing "coproc STUPIDPIPE cat; nc -l 12345 <&${STUPIDPIPE[0]} | tee clientlog | nc server port | tee serverlog >&${STUPIDPIPE[1]}" -- the logic is arguably a little bit clearer there.
18:14:39 <ais523> the most useless use of cat ever is probably along the lines of cat | startx
18:14:58 <CakeProphet> though the use I was thinking of is impossible I just realized. I don't think you can turn zero division into a type error, except for a small minority of cases.
18:14:59 <elliott__> fizzie: Well, it's nicer in that it quits if the listener does too.
18:14:59 <fizzie> The name of the coproc was chosen to reflect the fact that it really should be able to just pop up pipes somehow.
18:15:20 <elliott__> fizzie: But... hmm, will that coproc die when the script does?
18:16:00 <fizzie> Nnnmaybe. "Physically" speaking it should depend on whether the pipes get closed.
18:16:09 <fizzie> But that's sort of up to bash.
18:16:39 <fizzie> kill $STUPIDPIPE_PID at the end to make sure. :p
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18:17:46 <fizzie> I was in fact sort of assuming you could do the whole thing with a single socat, but it doesn't seem to have raw data logging facilities.
18:18:00 <fizzie> Or fanning stuff to multiple destinations.
18:18:17 <elliott__> tools/log-packets: line 7: PIPE: command not found
18:18:17 <elliott__> tools/log-packets: line 8: ${COPROC[0]}: Bad file descriptor
18:18:17 <elliott__> tools/log-packets: line 9: ${COPROC[1]}: Bad file descriptor
18:18:19 <fizzie> Poor stuff for a self-styled "netcat++".
18:18:32 <elliott__> coproc: coproc [NAME] command [redirections]
18:18:52 <elliott__> I don't see anything about _PID in coproc.
18:19:00 <fizzie> Ohh: "NAME must not be supplied if command is a simple command."
18:19:05 <CakeProphet> you could prevent zero division errors at compile-time for any integers that are known at compile time by having them carry type-level naturals and a sign phantom type. The types of the arithmetic operations would also perform computations on the type-level representation, or do nothing in the special case where value isn't known at compile-time.
18:19:10 <elliott__> Although "coproc PIPE cat" does ths ame.
18:19:10 <fizzie> Oh well, maybe you should just "coproc cat" and use the default name, then.
18:19:36 -!- Pharmtom_Hoover has changed nick to Tane.
18:19:37 <elliott__> nc -l 25556 <&${COPROC[0]} | tee "$serverlog" |
18:19:37 <elliott__> nc "$host" "$port" | tee "$clientlog" >&${COPROC[1]}
18:19:38 -!- Tane has changed nick to Taneb.
18:19:38 <elliott__> tools/log-packets: line 8: ${COPROC[0]}: Bad file descriptor
18:19:38 <elliott__> tools/log-packets: line 9: ${COPROC[1]}: Bad file descriptor
18:20:14 <fizzie> You shouldn't. Maybe try echo ${COPROC[0]}.
18:21:07 <fizzie> Also "coproc PIPE {cat;}" if you want to give it a name; then it's a "compound command", not a "simple command".
18:21:08 -!- Taneb has changed nick to Taneb|Kindle.
18:21:22 <fizzie> Sorry, "coproc PIPE { cat; }".
18:21:28 <fizzie> Maybe I should try it out.
18:21:35 -!- Taneb|Kindle has changed nick to Taneb.
18:21:38 <elliott__> tools/log-packets: line 9: ${COPROC[1]}: Bad file descriptor
18:21:38 <elliott__> tools/log-packets: line 8: ${COPROC[0]}: Bad file descriptor
18:21:42 -!- Taneb has changed nick to Pharmtom_Hoover.
18:21:46 <elliott__> Definitely sounds like it needs quoting.
18:22:45 -!- Ngevd has changed nick to Taneb.
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18:23:22 -!- Taneb has changed nick to Taneb|Kindle.
18:23:27 <elliott__> tools/log-packets: line 7: "${COPROC[0]}": Bad file descriptor
18:23:27 <elliott__> tools/log-packets: line 8: "${COPROC[1]}": Bad file descriptor
18:23:33 <elliott__> fizzie: Sounds like I need to use eval.
18:23:35 <fizzie> I'unno, it seems to work in an interactive shell:
18:23:36 -!- Taneb|Kindle has changed nick to Ngevd.
18:23:36 <fizzie> fis@eris:~$ coproc PIPE { cat; }
18:23:36 <fizzie> fis@eris:~$ echo ${PIPE[0]} ${PIPE[1]}
18:23:36 <fizzie> fis@eris:~$ echo yay >&${PIPE[1]}
18:23:38 <fizzie> fis@eris:~$ cat <&${PIPE[0]}
18:24:09 -!- Ngevd has changed nick to Taneb|Hovercraft.
18:24:20 -!- Taneb|Hovercraft has changed nick to Ngevd.
18:24:48 <elliott__> fizzie: Or do you _need_ the compound thing to get it working at all? :-P
18:24:56 -!- elliott__ has changed nick to Taneb.
18:25:10 -!- CakeProphet has changed nick to elliott.
18:25:19 <elliott> this is perhaps not a great idea.
18:25:28 -!- elliott has changed nick to CakeProphet.
18:25:33 <Taneb> What, NickServ is down?
18:25:39 <fizzie> elliott: Ohhhh, right.
18:25:43 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Disconnected by services).
18:25:47 <fizzie> elliott: You need to do a THING.
18:25:55 -!- Taneb has changed nick to elliott.
18:25:58 -!- elliott has quit (Changing host).
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18:26:11 <fizzie> elliott: I saw this somewhere. The problem is that the coproc fds aren't inherited by the subshell that is spawned to handle the pipeline.
18:26:53 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
18:27:31 <elliott> Please tell me that was my ghosting.
18:27:44 <fizzie> elliott: http://p.zem.fi/fzuu
18:27:48 <fizzie> elliott: You want something like that.
18:27:52 <monqy> CakeProphet: nickserv is lagged to hell
18:27:56 <elliott> fizzie: You can do those two execs as one.
18:28:03 <elliott> fizzie: And isn't that line identical to "coproc cat"?
18:28:09 <fizzie> And yes, I was just testing. :p
18:28:11 <elliott> CakeProphet: Did you forget to identify and have nick protection on?
18:28:55 <elliott> fizzie: Well, it "works". It hangs btu I can't connect to localhost.
18:28:58 <elliott> Did I get my default MC port wrong?
18:29:26 <CakeProphet> elliott: erm? I'm pretty sure I auto-ident
18:29:52 <monqy> the ident would have carreid over i think...
18:30:02 <monqy> so: it was most likely eliots ghjost
18:30:11 <elliott> CakeProphet: Not on /nick.
18:30:19 <elliott> It's because of that SERVER NOBODY KNOWS.
18:30:31 <elliott> (What a silly port it is.)
18:30:42 <CakeProphet> pretty sure I still keep ident if I go back to a nick I identified though.
18:30:43 <elliott> fizzie: Ha, it: still doesn't work.
18:30:58 <fizzie> elliott: I got it wrong too.
18:31:07 <elliott> fizzie. You are making me sad.
18:31:17 <fizzie> It was 25566 on that SERVER NOBODY KNOWS, I think.
18:31:30 <elliott> I do remember some off-by-oneing.
18:31:48 <elliott> fizzie: Ha, it: still doesn't work.
18:31:53 <elliott> Literally said that lines ago
18:32:23 <fizzie> That should be the right bort though. I hope it isn't cat's block-buffering. It could be.
18:32:41 <fizzie> In that case you'd need to put the other nc | tee inside the coproc like you wanted to, I suppose.
18:32:45 <CakeProphet> on a line-based communication protocol, in a time-based universe.
18:32:51 <elliott> fizzie: GNU cat doesn't buffer.
18:33:12 <fizzie> Mhm. Then it might not be that.
18:33:46 <CakeProphet> elliott: your lines per second squared is decreasing right now.
18:37:46 <CakeProphet> string theorists, where is your sparticle now?
18:38:10 <elliott> Spadness? This is sparticle
18:38:12 <elliott> Spadness? This is sparticle.
18:38:21 <elliott> RIP sparticle - died as it lived, somewhat sparta
18:40:15 <CakeProphet> I can't wait until we encounter some undiscovered law of physics that mutates CERN scientists into extra-dimensional horrors from the deep beyondness.
18:40:31 <Ngevd> But CERN invented the world wide web
18:40:32 <CakeProphet> playing with particle physics is dangerous stuff.
18:40:34 <elliott> The result is called "CERN scientists".
18:41:47 <CakeProphet> I think elliott is actually some kind of deep space cthuloid
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18:42:55 <CakeProphet> extending the grip of his icy cephalopodic embrace.
18:43:12 <elliott> It is the best part of being a Squiddle.
18:45:21 <CakeProphet> but perhaps cthuloids do not feeled the subdued throes of loneliness.
18:47:07 <CakeProphet> ...the creeping and measured atrophy of the soul.
18:48:45 <CakeProphet> perhaps they feel only the unslatable hunger of undoing.
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18:50:51 <elliott> CakeProphet: No we just watch human cartoons, it's pretty great.
18:52:10 <elliott> ais523: I think I'm going to switch to compiz myself, to fix that issue
18:55:39 <elliott> WOW DOUGLALJS ADAMS WAS RITE !!!
18:57:33 <Ngevd> > const 42 "How old did you have to be to become a consul in the days of the Roman Republic?"
18:57:42 <Pharmtom_Hoover> elliott, yeah, except I meant to type 6, but my finger slipped.
18:59:27 <ais523> reverse k and you get `ki
19:00:02 <ais523> yep, seems to be a casting operator
19:00:22 <fizzie> elliott: Yeah: use named fifos. :p (I can try the coproc thing out in a moment.)
19:00:24 <CakeProphet> > answer "Why is Douglas Adams best U.S. peresident?"
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19:10:27 <elliott> ais523: how do I convince someone I lost my ssh private key?
19:10:52 <ais523> elliott: /did/ you lose your ssh private key?
19:11:04 <elliott> Yes, but I doubt that fact makes it any easier or harder
19:11:23 <ais523> I suspect it depends on who it is
19:11:28 <ais523> they should have some sort of password-recovery thing
19:11:33 <ais523> and sending a new key is similar
19:11:42 <ais523> email them and say you lost it, see what their response is
19:11:48 <ais523> they'll probably have some way to figure out who you are
19:12:02 <elliott> I suspect they trust my email, since I sent the public key across it in the first place
19:12:45 <pikhq> Wow. An artificial rat cerebellum was constructed and hooked up to actual rats.
19:13:37 <monqy> congratulations, science
19:14:21 <ais523> pikhq: is the rat acting like a rat?
19:14:31 <pikhq> Ah. It only really replaced a small portion of the cerebellum's functioning. But jesus, it worked at all.
19:15:03 <elliott> ais523: do you know any way to access an ssh server with only one logginable account and it only accepts key logins....
19:15:36 <ais523> (assuming you aren't counting "having the key")
19:15:45 <elliott> that would be a problem...
19:16:17 <ais523> the whole point of the key login is that you can't get in any other way without physical access, so you're basically asking "do you have any exploits for sshd"
19:16:30 <ais523> for which my answer is "no, that'd be out of character for me and if I did, what makes you think I'd give them to you?"
19:16:48 <pikhq> ais523: Didn't really say. Though, its primary function is motor control...
19:17:10 <elliott> ais523: because I neeeeeed them
19:17:25 <elliott> I'm so glad fizzie fixed my bug.
19:17:32 <elliott> Now he just needs to get me into my server.
19:17:39 <fizzie> Sorry, we had a thing.
19:18:00 <ais523> at least you didn't lose the only copy of the key to a bitcoin wallet containing bitcoins worth millions of dollars
19:18:06 <ais523> which one bitcoin exchange apparently did
19:18:15 <ais523> (and ofc, how can you tell if it's really the only copy or not?)
19:18:47 <elliott> fizzie: Things happen a lot.
19:20:07 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:21:53 <elliott> I wonder if CraftBukkit lets you execute arbitrary commands on the server if you're an op? :P
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19:27:25 <fizzie> elliott: http://p.zem.fi/wldb worked for me, at least "./test.sh c.nerd.nu" did when I started it immediately before direct-connecting to 127.0.0.1. It has a bit of a problem in that the nc in the pipeline connects to the server immediately, and I believe it will probably timeout at some point when the server gets tired of waiting.
19:27:57 <fizzie> You can drop the -v -v -v from the latter netcat, I was just using it to check when it connects.
19:28:45 <elliott> fizzie: Well, I can always just swap around the way of things.
19:29:14 <fizzie> No matter where you put it, all the processes of the pipeline will get started immediately, and thus it'll try to connect before the "nc -l" gets the client.
19:30:55 <fizzie> Not such a huge problem if you just don't let it idle, though.
19:31:29 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:31:49 <elliott> fizzie: Well, I've waited minutes to do it with no problems before.
19:32:15 <fizzie> Could be the servers are just patient.
19:32:51 <fizzie> It's a quality of pipes that it starts all the parts, and it's a quality of netcat that it connects immediately, instead of "wait for any input from stdin before actually connecting"ing.
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19:57:55 <elliott> fizzie: I'll try that after I've done this safety procedure.
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20:25:44 <elliott> fizzie: I doubt that kill will help.
20:27:00 <elliott> The nc -l argument was 25556.
20:27:04 <elliott> No wonder I couldn't connect previously.
20:35:58 <oerjan> <CakeProhpet> PSPACE=NPSPACE. really?
20:36:54 <oerjan> a quite elegant theorem, too.
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20:46:16 <oerjan> <ais523> CakeProhpet: pretty obviously, just run all the possibilities one after the other
20:46:22 <oerjan> it's not quite _that_ obvious.
20:49:46 <ais523> it's not trivially provable
20:49:51 <oerjan> because if you try to encode the entire evolution of an NP machine, you will find that it does _not_ fit in polynomial space
20:50:36 <oerjan> *nondeterministic machine with polynomial space
21:00:47 <elliott> ais523: good news, they seem to accept an email as confirmation of a new ssh key
21:01:03 <ais523> looks like my plan worked
21:01:08 <elliott> ais523: they do email it back to confirm, which I guess is rudimentary anti-email-MITM protection
21:01:11 <ais523> I'm surprised that you didn't come up with it on your own
21:01:12 <elliott> even if it doesn't really work
21:01:21 <ais523> it requires the email to be MITMed both ways
21:01:22 <elliott> I was just wondering if there might be a more convincing method :P
21:01:28 <ais523> which is harder than MITMing it just one way
21:01:41 <ais523> although probably not much harder
21:01:45 <elliott> ais523: I was going to say that the most likely scenario seemed like Google MITMing it
21:01:48 <elliott> but I... guess that's not true
21:02:05 <ais523> it's unlikely that Google would MitM your email connection just to hack into one server
21:02:12 <elliott> now to sort out a shipping address problem... being an adult totally sucks, let me tell you
21:02:21 <ais523> it'd be something far too minor for them to throw away their reputation over
21:02:34 <ais523> elliott: indeed, I think I agree with you there
21:02:38 <elliott> ais523: I dunno, man... Minecraft is at stake...
21:02:39 <ais523> I hate people forcing me to be an adult
21:03:10 <elliott> Truly, Sgeo is keeping the secret of eternal youthfulness from us all.
21:04:19 <oerjan> i used to be eternally youthful, but i lost it
21:14:36 <CakeProphet> being an adult is like being a kid but with more stuff you have to do.
21:14:39 <oerjan> <pikhq> Ah. It only really replaced a small portion of the cerebellum's functioning. But jesus, it worked at all.
21:14:44 <oerjan> uploading, here we come?
21:15:05 <fizzie> oerjan: Synthetic zombie food, here we come?
21:15:32 <oerjan> fizzie: _FINALLY_ we can have robot zombies
21:15:34 <elliott> That would be the best way to control the outbreak.
21:15:44 <elliott> "Here you go, here's brains. No, get off me, that's not civilised."
21:16:31 <oerjan> sadly we still cannot have mutant ninja pirate robot zombie dinosaurs.
21:16:59 <oerjan> (mutant is incompatible with robot, i think)
21:18:08 <fizzie> Maybe a mutant ninja pirate cyborg zombie dinosaur could do in a pinch.
21:18:52 <elliott> How can I be stopped from making this commit message from not being able to come up with a single word.
21:19:12 <oerjan> elliott: supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
21:19:22 <HackEgo> nakepaputassienekapofierrionm anniemens ened oepashill jundepplad unda bola rotorepteldf earjobas hakelwalus lianna hos kon coper pctoruntamense cop fultiontialplinsuphorthys eudotearnithorriatickhre affenciagromenrcapunstranioneurphil luelinthencerrch ejcsed ova manaklinti z cocysicha fj sachy lithed ritisayadifiestistn
21:19:34 <elliott> NONE OF THOSE CAN REPLACE "GET"
21:19:36 <fizzie> Also they do those "electronic circuits from genetic algorithms" things, all the results are by definition mutants, assuming there has been some mutation going on.
21:19:38 <elliott> I like how it generated a 0-length word there.
21:20:02 <CakeProphet> elliott: huh. that's odd. I guess there's a null string somewhere in the dataset?
21:20:09 <CakeProphet> er. no... that wouldn't match my filter regex.
21:20:36 <oerjan> elliott: obtain, receive, acquire
21:20:48 <elliott> Add a log-packets script to get packet dumps"
21:20:51 <elliott> They don't really work there :P
21:21:55 <fizzie> get, catch, capture => seize, prehend, clutch
21:21:55 <fizzie> grow, develop, produce, get, acquire => change
21:22:04 <elliott> Capture might be right; isn't that what Wireshark calls it?
21:23:22 <fizzie> get, get under one's skin => annoy, rag, get to, bother, get at, irritate, rile, nark, nettle, gravel, vex, chafe, devil
21:24:58 <fizzie> Snoop. Lawfully intercept.
21:26:57 * CakeProphet just sat through a video of someone castrating themself.
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21:30:32 <CakeProphet> yes the video has been confirmed to be fake.
21:30:56 <CakeProphet> but now why do I feel like I've been ripped off?
21:31:08 <oerjan> that's good, since you cannot be traumatized by fake videos.
21:31:45 <CakeProphet> it was only mildly disconcerting to me thanks to ridiculous amounts of desensitation.
21:32:15 <CakeProphet> I just feel like I've been shorted now... I wanted to witness the real deal. How fucked up.
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21:34:27 <elliott> oerjan: yikes, apparently Hackage has no access control
21:37:07 <oerjan> CakeProphet: this must be how serial killers are made.
21:38:58 <CakeProphet> Our design met with your good taste. Since 1864 Coltellerie Sanelli manufactures knives and knives blocks for professionals using the same care ...
21:39:31 <oerjan> the taste of testicles
21:40:55 <CakeProphet> "Yes this product worked like a charm. Very useful for clean amputations near the base of the limbs to ease transpotation of the body. Made very precise incisions and cut through the bone like butter"
21:45:40 <CakeProphet> What do people use bonesaws for besides surgery and maybe hunting?
21:46:24 <CakeProphet> well I guess you don't /have/ to cut bones with a bonesaw. I guess you could use it as a normal saw.
21:49:27 <oerjan> "we sell a lot of them in northern mexico"
21:50:25 <oerjan> that's what they all say.
21:51:01 <CakeProphet> ah here we go a post mortem bone saw for $62
21:51:33 <elliott> oerjan: is there an alphabetical constructor in the stdlib? :P
21:51:53 <CakeProphet> $300 for a powered surgical bonesaw apparently.
21:52:08 <oerjan> Left, Right, Just, Nothing?
21:52:52 <oerjan> i suspect there is only one _non-alphabetical_ one, :
21:53:07 <elliott> ok it's showsPrec 11 I want
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21:53:27 <oerjan> is that even supposed to work.
21:53:28 <pikhq> oerjan: (,) says wut.
21:53:34 <elliott> packetShowsFieldsPrec :: Int -> a -> [(String,ShowS)]
21:53:50 <elliott> how do you think constructor fields are showed
21:53:56 <oerjan> elliott: i didn't know showsPrec 11 was supposed to work
21:54:07 <copumpkin> oerjan: it's like turning the knob up to 11
21:54:09 <elliott> oerjan: look at derived show instances sometime
21:54:25 <elliott> For example, given the declarations
21:54:25 <elliott> data Tree a = Leaf a | Tree a :^: Tree a
21:54:25 <elliott> the derived instance of Show is equivalent to
21:54:25 <elliott> instance (Show a) => Show (Tree a) where
21:54:25 <elliott> showsPrec d (Leaf m) = showParen (d > app_prec) $
21:54:25 <oerjan> elliott: well but they're ghc specific
21:54:27 <elliott> showString "Leaf " . showsPrec (app_prec+1) m
21:54:31 <elliott> showsPrec d (u :^: v) = showParen (d > up_prec) $
21:54:43 <elliott> oerjan: how would /you/ write an instance for
21:54:45 <elliott> data Foo a = Nope | Foo a a
21:54:49 <elliott> "the operator precedence of the enclosing context (a number from 0 to 11). Function application has precedence 10." --showsPrec
21:57:15 <CakeProphet> man I didn't know it was this easy to be a serial killer.
21:57:39 <CakeProphet> like I don't even have to leave my house to get all of the tools.
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21:58:22 <lambdabot> forall a. (Show a) => Int -> a -> String -> String
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21:59:05 <elliott> copumpkin: Is there any way to make ghc not emit warnings about TH-generated code?
21:59:10 <elliott> <no location info>: Warning: Defined but not used: `prec_azgu'
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21:59:31 <CakeProphet> Pharmtom_Hoover: they are equally bad things.
21:59:44 <oerjan> <pikhq> oerjan: (,) says wut. <-- ah right, that one doesn't follow usual operator syntax though.
22:00:33 <CakeProphet> elliott: ghc is like a stern but lenient mother.
22:02:02 <oerjan> !haskell data Sum a = One a | Sum a :+ Sum a deriving Show; infixl 5 :+; main = print $ One 1 :+ One 2 :+ One 3 :+ (One 4 :+ One 5)
22:02:08 <EgoBot> ((One 1 :+ One 2) :+ One 3) :+ (One 4 :+ One 5)
22:02:29 <oerjan> ignoring associativity it is, then.
22:04:03 <elliott> there should really be a mapShows
22:04:05 <CakeProphet> probably to help people with dissociative identity disorder.
22:04:16 <elliott> or showConcatMap for consistency I guess
22:04:22 <elliott> showConcatMap :: (a -> ShowS) -> [a] -> ShowS
22:04:47 <elliott> showConcatMap f = foldr (.)
22:04:55 <elliott> showConcatMap f = foldr (\x r -> f x . r)
22:05:07 <elliott> or foldr (.) id . map f I suppose
22:07:45 <lambdabot> forall a a1. (?f::a -> (a1 -> a1) -> a1 -> a1) => [a] -> a1 -> a1
22:08:07 <pikhq> WOTC is fail. They apparently managed to fuck up the current Oracle update. Because of this, everything with color not matching its casting cost has apparently ceased to have that color.
22:09:52 <pikhq> Wizards of the Coast. Makers of Magic.
22:10:36 <lambdabot> forall a a1. (a1 -> (a -> a) -> a -> a) -> [a1] -> a -> a
22:12:30 <oerjan> :t foldr :: (a -> ShowS) -> [a] -> ShowS
22:12:32 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `a' against inferred type `Char'
22:12:32 <lambdabot> `a' is a rigid type variable bound by
22:12:32 <lambdabot> an expression type signature at <interactive>:1:10
22:13:44 <oerjan> :t flip . foldr :: (a -> ShowS) -> [a] -> ShowS
22:13:45 <lambdabot> forall a. (a -> ShowS) -> [a] -> String -> String
22:13:54 <oerjan> elliott: there you go :P
22:15:54 <oerjan> > (flip . foldr $ showIntAtBase 7 intToDigit) [1..10] ""
22:22:08 <oerjan> elliott: part of this is the realization that foldr (.) id = flip (foldr ($))
22:22:49 <oerjan> = flip (foldr id) as well i guess
22:23:45 <oerjan> that is, in a sense you don't need to combine the functions before you start applying them.
22:25:54 <oerjan> i just tend to recall that whenever i see someone write foldr (.) id
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22:43:50 <elliott> "But it seems to me that he's essentially saying that there are too many natural numbers; that the set of natural numbers admits members that are too large to be successors of 0."
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23:20:18 <CakeProphet> do they know how successor works? and like... infinity and stuff?
23:20:18 <elliott> proposed proof sketch of peano inconsistency
23:20:24 <elliott> http://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/ksg7f/peano_arithmetic_inconsistent/
23:20:32 <elliott> CakeProphet: i think it's more that _you_ don't know how those work
23:21:30 <oerjan> oh sure, successors look simple, but try doing them graham's number of times...
23:21:31 <CakeProphet> how can a natural number be too large to not be a successors of 0. is all I'm wondering.
23:21:43 <elliott> CakeProphet: because foundations are really weird.
23:22:00 <CakeProphet> I think that's already been done for me hasn't it
23:22:21 <elliott> perhaps not well enough, it seems.
23:22:50 <CakeProphet> okay I mean it's possible it's inconsistent sure, but out of context that statement you quoted just sounds really really dumb.
23:23:15 <elliott> because it's a simplification
23:25:14 <CakeProphet> http://www.math.princeton.edu/~nelson/papers/outline.pdf
23:27:11 <elliott> it's really compact if you ask me
23:27:37 <elliott> ITT: you don't have a phd in mathematics. well, yet.
23:28:17 <CakeProphet> are you suggesting that I may one day have a phd in mathematics?
23:28:46 <elliott> hmm. well you'd need a brain transplant, but anything's possible. peano arithmetic might even beinconsistent.
23:29:16 <CakeProphet> based on plenty of actual real evidence I think this guy is just a finitist-hater.
23:29:17 <elliott> "... that after his shooting in 1881, U.S. President Garfield was treated by Doctor Doctor Bliss (pictured)?"
23:29:28 <elliott> nothing in the article about that...
23:29:39 <elliott> CakeProphet: he's a constructivist, but also a respected mathematician outside of that
23:30:10 <CakeProphet> whenever I get my math phd and people ask me what my stances are.
23:30:19 <CakeProphet> I'll just be all like "yo dawg I'm a realist"
23:30:54 <elliott> "We are all Platonists in our youth." --the guy
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23:31:13 <elliott> "In this book is the first appearance of L'Hôpital's rule. The rule is believed to be the work of Johann Bernoulli since l'Hôpital, a nobleman, paid Bernoulli a retainer of 300₣ per year to keep him updated on developments in calculus and to solve problems he had. Moreover, the two signed a contract allowing l'Hôpital to use Bernoulli's discoveries in any way he wished."
23:32:17 <elliott> um considering the paper i quoted that from was about isms...
23:32:53 <CakeProphet> I wasn't really sure what it was about because it didn't have a clear title.
23:32:58 <CakeProphet> unless you're talking about a different paper
23:34:00 <CakeProphet> Diffusion, Quantum Theory, and Radically Elementary mathematics
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23:39:32 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yule_Log_(TV_program)
23:41:39 <elliott> During 2005, Tribune began making a version of the Yule Log video recorded in AVI format available for download, advertising it as a "Portable Yule Log" for those traveling.
23:41:57 <CakeProphet> The program was both a critical and ratings success, and by popular demand, it was rebroadcast for 23 consecutive years, beginning during 1967.
23:42:06 <elliott> MC/Protocol/Server.hs:10:1:
23:42:06 <elliott> Kind incompatibility when matching types:
23:42:06 <elliott> ghc-prim:GHC.Prim.Word# :: #
23:42:06 <elliott> In the first argument of `show', namely `0##'
23:42:07 <elliott> In the first argument of `Debug.Trace.trace', namely `show 0##'
23:42:09 <elliott> In a stmt of a 'do' block: Debug.Trace.trace (show 0##) (return ())
23:42:26 <elliott> Also during 2008, animation director PES released a free screensaver that reimagined the Yule Log in food, with pretzels for the log and candy corn for the flames.
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23:50:48 <oerjan> elliott: show (Word# 0##) maybe?
23:50:59 <oerjan> or whatever the constructor is
23:51:02 <elliott> oerjan: I kept around the original word so it's OK
23:51:09 <lambdabot> Source not found. You speak an infinite deal of nothing
23:52:23 <lambdabot> Debug.Trace traceShow :: Show a => a -> b -> b
23:56:52 <elliott> "The value of the progress bar. The maximum values vary depending on the progress bar. Presumably the values are specified as in-game ticks. Some progress bar values increase, while others decrease. For furnaces, 0 is empty, full progress arrow = about 180, full fire icon = about 250)"