00:00:52 C++ has all the bad abstractions you need to circumvent problems you find with its bad abstractions. 00:01:11 nope C++ is the ideal programming language 00:01:13 like manna from heaven 00:01:23 that's why every language must copy it 00:01:45 I've never really seen a language that works like C++ 00:01:50 so it's not very well-copied. 00:02:00 Patashu: No. You can use different programming language what you do. Such as, you can write a program in C, or whatever 00:03:32 yeah, that's true, it's just the 'look' of C++ that's copied not the semantics 00:20:37 elliott__: @. Log-structed filesystem. Contemplate. 00:21:08 pikhq: I'm not sure what it would buy me, because it's not clear how to do that for arbitrary objects 00:21:19 And I don't ever want to throw away old versions without being asked, so it doesn't help for that 00:21:38 elliott__: The "throw away old versions" thing is a garbage collection pass. 00:21:52 Well, fair enough, but all implementations I know use a fixed-size buffer 00:22:29 Do you ever need to collect the entire heap? No. You need to collect enough to satisfy your next write. 00:24:01 pikhq: Not true; I have to collect the memory heap aggressively to avoid @'s equivalent of swap trhrashing 00:24:52 Yeah, but the disk heap doesn't need anywhere near that level of aggression. 00:25:17 In fact, you desperately want to avoid scanning that. 00:26:39 The question is, where do I start collecting on the disk heap if I need to free up space? 00:26:54 Also open problem: Where do I store the generation info? 00:26:56 And how? 00:27:01 Also: I can't use a copying collector. 00:27:26 Well, obviously; collection would take eons. 00:27:49 More like "you don't have space". 00:28:02 Or you only ever use half the disk. 00:28:04 :) 00:28:06 * oerjan should learn more about _really_ incremental collectors 00:28:21 i assume they exist 00:28:37 they must because they're really 00:28:47 obviously. 00:29:17 oerjan: wat 00:29:29 Anyways, stupid concept for a collector: circular log collector. Have two pointers, tail and head. Collect from tail, write to head (as per a standard copying collector). 00:29:40 I have no idea if this is even slightly sane. 00:29:42 well maybe there is some simple reason why they cannot be made 00:29:48 Intuition says "o.O'" 00:30:23 elliott__: i mean essentially a collector which _never_ needs to trace too many objects in one go 00:30:38 Isn't that just an incremental collector :P 00:31:02 i dunno. i might know even less than i thought :P 00:31:23 hm, maybe i'm confusing generational with incremental 00:32:10 as in, generational collectors make things more incremental, but not fully 00:32:16 ghc still has full collections 00:32:58 pikhq: Incidentally, I also need a concurrent garbage collector... 00:33:20 Or at least one that can only pause /some/ tasks (defined as "things that are being scheduled"). 00:33:33 elliott__: anyway you say you cannot use a copying collector, but if using only half of your physical space was the price for other efficiency, why not... 00:33:52 oerjan: So you buy a one terabyte disk and can only use five hundred gigs of it? 00:33:54 That won't be very popular. 00:35:53 elliott__: hm, but for images and videos, say, they won't contain pointers much, so you may not need to allocate double space for them... 00:36:05 * oerjan is hypothesizing wildly here 00:36:19 oerjan: copying collector involves two heaps 00:36:31 when you collect, you simply traverse one heap, copy everything referenced to the other, and start using it 00:36:42 how many pointers there are is irrelevant 00:36:50 (you'd probably have a heap per generation) 00:37:12 elliott__: yes. but you could probably have some objects which don't need to be put on those heaps 00:37:29 you mean objects you don't need to collect? ok :P 00:37:31 elliott__: reference counting is the best GC 00:37:46 elliott__: well you might collect them if there are no references to them. 00:37:52 CakeProphet: By "best" you mean "worst", right? 00:38:21 basically, just have a small inode-like thing, that is put on the heaps but the rest of the data isn't. 00:38:30 oerjan: that sounds like refcounting... 00:38:35 oerjan: the whole point with copying GC is that you never explicitly "free" 00:38:38 if by "right" you mean "wrong" and by "mean" you mean "don't mean" 00:38:41 you never even _look_ at garbage 00:38:45 then yes. 00:38:51 elliott__: oh hm right that may be a problem 00:38:57 CakeProphet: Seriously, reference counting is terrible in nearly every way. 00:38:58 ok 00:39:06 pikhq: seriously it's the best dude. 00:39:11 what could be simpler. 00:39:55 CakeProphet: reference counting requires everything _other_ than the gc to handle it... 00:40:15 oerjan: There is an issue that, in the model he's dealing with, the disk heap is simply the heap; the RAM is functioning exclusively as a disk cache. 00:40:25 elliott__: (...I wonder when they'll catch on) 00:40:30 And, plausibly, the first generation or two of the collector. 00:47:41 -!- Jafet has joined. 00:48:13 so 00:48:32 -!- Sgeo has joined. 00:49:29 so 00:49:47 -!- Sgeo has quit (Client Quit). 00:49:52 os 00:50:07 -!- Sgeo has joined. 00:50:24 * Sgeo is now using a half-decent IRC client! 00:51:02 What IRC client? 00:51:07 XChat 00:51:22 O, it is good to you? Or only half? 00:51:33 It's better than webchat 00:51:55 Now make it emit valid UTF-8. By default it uses a moronic encoding of "If it can be encoded in Windows-1252, use that, otherwise UTF-8". 00:52:08 o.O 00:52:53 høw hørrible 00:53:21 They are probably all better than webchat 00:54:01 pikhq: Do you know what configuration setting you need for that? If so, write on here, maybe Sgeo will correct it too 00:54:12 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Quit: Bye). 00:54:59 oerjan: But seriously, I think an incremental collector is basically just doing a normal collection in discrete pieces 00:56:52 zzo38: Should just be the charset configuration option. 00:56:58 The moronic one is called "IRC". 00:57:49 Now I will try to make up a way of using X- fields in cabal file for preparing printout of the program. 01:00:45 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:01:27 Is the charset configuration option not in the GUI? 01:02:08 by default it's shown in invisible characters 01:04:22 -!- esowiki has joined. 01:04:40 -!- esowiki has joined. 01:05:39 -!- esowiki has joined. 01:05:39 -!- glogbot has joined. 01:06:46 -!- HackEgo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 01:07:25 -!- HackEgo has joined. 01:08:00 Sgeo: whether you get lynched for using UTF-8 or for not using it differs between networks and channels ... 01:08:17 o.O 01:08:42 ‫Will I get lynched for doing this? 01:08:49 but a per-channel setting with a global default is probably a lot more useful than a per-network setting 01:09:09 Sgeo: Did you put something before "W"? 01:09:10 UTF-8 is at least ubiquitous on freenode. 01:09:15 zzo38: "?". 01:09:28 the good part about the IRC setting is that you at least don't have to care about what other people have as their encoding 01:09:35 olsner: um it does not affect decoding 01:09:36 only encoding 01:09:38 elliott__, I have no idea if that came before or after 01:09:44 Before. 01:09:51 If you mean the "?". 01:10:04 I'm pretty sure I typed it after though 01:10:07 * Sgeo is confused 01:10:45 The following line will be typed as such: Right-to-left-embedding H e l l o ? 01:10:51 ‫Hello? 01:10:52 elliott__: hmm, maybe it doesn't 01:11:02 Maybe I should change name of package/modules to prevent names being conflicted. I could prefix all names of my package by "zzo38-" and name of my module by "Zzo38." that way it won't conflicted? Is that the way it should be done? "Chaos will result if two distinct packages with the same name are installed on the same system, but there is not yet a mechanism for allocating these names." 01:11:23 Sgeo: yeah that was "?Hello". 01:11:33 zzo38: just use the hierarchical model standard 01:11:34 sufficient, but not necessary. 01:11:34 Sgeo: To me, is shown a unknown character before the "W" ("H" that time), overlapping the colon 01:11:36 yours should be Control.Monad.Barrier 01:11:45 s/model/module/ 01:11:53 http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Hierarchical_module_names 01:11:56 olsner: The "IRC" setting reads "fuck up everyone who is not omitting this fucked up guaranteed-to-be-broken 'standard'" 01:12:05 elliott_: OK. But what happen if someone else wants to make up a different barrier monads implementation? 01:12:26 pikhq: :) 01:12:39 It fucks up everyone using *either* Windows-1252 or UTF-8. 01:13:05 And the scheme makes EBCDIC look reasonable. 01:13:53 zzo38: Then dependencies sort it out, and the user "ghc-pkg hide"s the one they don't want to use by default. 01:14:01 elliott__: That article does not describe package names, though. How to do with package names? 01:14:10 If a package depends on two packages, that each use a different barrier monad implementation, they're fucked :) 01:14:15 zzo38: Lowercase, dashes to separate, is the standard 01:14:18 So barrier-monad 01:14:27 There's no real namespacing, but it's no big deal in practice 01:14:53 elliott__: But what if someone make a different implementation? It is not a problem with module names because you can hide it, but package names doesn't do that! 01:15:10 OK I can call the module "Control.Monad.Barrier" 01:15:19 It doesn't help with package name though 01:15:56 zzo38: Well, then it breaks. But there's no place to get packages but Hackage, and it wouldn't allow a duplicate name :-) 01:16:59 OK. 01:19:30 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 01:19:52 -!- Sgeo has joined. 01:21:23 Should I fill in "Build-depends"? 01:22:08 It tell me lack of 'description' and 'maintainer' field cause trouble when distributing the package, but the message about Hackage rejecting the package is removed now. 01:22:25 You must fill in build-depends completely with proper version information or the package will fail to build. 01:22:51 Is there a way to parse the source file and check which packages it uses? 01:22:57 By automatically? 01:24:32 No. 01:24:41 You can see in ghci thought, 01:24:43 ghci Foo 01:24:47 and see which packages it loads 01:24:48 BUT 01:24:52 That includes all the dependencies too 01:24:57 And you should only list packages you use directly in build-depends 01:25:03 It's good though, because you should have to think about the versions you're using 01:25:21 The only one I import directly is the Control.Monad module 01:25:45 Then 01:26:19 build-depends: base == 4.* 01:26:20 should do. 01:26:24 OK 01:27:13 -!- kmc_ has joined. 01:29:37 So, do I put it in a file from the package root Control/Monad/Barrier.lhs is that the correct way to do it? 01:30:23 Sure. You can specify source directories in the cabal file 01:30:35 So if you wanted you could have src/Control/Monad/Barrier.lhs. 01:30:39 -!- Gregor` has joined. 01:30:42 But is that the way to do it if the module is named Control.Monad.Barrier 01:30:43 hi Gregor` 01:31:22 What the blehhuh 01:31:24 Nothing was down except for my bouncer >_O 01:31:46 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 01:32:02 -!- Gregor` has changed nick to Gregor. 01:32:07 -!- Sgeo has joined. 01:32:16 AND some jerk squatted my name :P 01:32:57 lol 01:32:58 -!- kmc_ has changed nick to kmc. 01:32:59 did you ghost him 01:33:04 Hell yeah 01:33:17 I see "hs-source-dirs: directory list (default: .) Root directories for the module hierarchy." So does that mean Control/Monad/Barrier.lhs is correct? Or not? 01:33:23 zzo38: Yes 01:33:25 It's correct 01:33:28 OK thanks 01:34:49 Does it matter the name of the .cabal file or the name of the directory where the .cabal file is stored? 01:36:05 Is this a correct file? http://sprunge.us/XGDP 01:37:40 It should be called .cabal 01:37:44 You have a Setup.lhs, right? 01:37:47 Or .hs 01:37:47 Whatever 01:38:00 You should probably remove the commented out lines :P 01:38:15 Oh, and it should be in your root directory to 01:38:16 too 01:38:36 It created the Setup.hs file by itself 01:38:47 OK now it is called barrier-monad.cabal 01:39:05 It is in the package root. 01:39:17 Does the name of the package root directory matter? 01:39:43 So, the package root now contains files barrier-monad.cabal example.lhs Setup.hs and the directory Control 01:40:02 Is that correct? 01:40:12 Should examples be placed in its own directory? 01:40:53 Doesn't really matter 01:41:07 OK I will leave it how it is. 01:42:05 The "X-Printout-" are not for any existing program yet, so I can change their names or syntax if necessary. Do you have better ideas of their names or format? 01:45:00 dunno 01:47:47 My idea is that "Mode" specifies what mode is used for preparing printout, such as Plain TeX, LaTeX, HTML, or whatever; "Main" means main files (for TeX, it is the file(s) given directly to TeX); "Others" means other file from the package needed to work the printout; and "Require" mean files not in this package that are needed in addition to what Mode/Main/Others specifies. 01:48:06 Would different names for these fields be better, or different syntax of the values of these fields? 01:51:30 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 01:51:51 -!- Sgeo has joined. 02:03:46 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 02:04:26 -!- Sgeo has joined. 02:04:50 -!- shachaf has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:08:34 -!- yorick has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 02:12:18 -!- Madoka-Kaname has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 02:13:07 -!- Madoka-Kaname has joined. 02:13:07 -!- Madoka-Kaname has quit (Changing host). 02:13:07 -!- Madoka-Kaname has joined. 02:13:40 Now what do I do, do I make a file called barrier-monad-0.1.tar.gz of all the files and subdirectories from the package root? 02:16:09 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 02:16:35 Sure, then upload to Hackage 02:16:45 I think XChat keeps getting swapped out of memory or something. Or does it not work like that? 02:18:10 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 02:18:46 -!- Sgeo has joined. 02:23:11 Oops I require a password. 02:24:43 For what? 02:26:07 zzo38: ? 02:26:24 Oops now I tried with -c and it says "could not extract barrier-monad-0.1 directory from barrier-monad-0.1.tar.gz" OK, I will fix that too 02:26:50 What did you need a password for? 02:27:02 The "cabal upload" ask for password. 02:27:25 zzo38: You need a Hackage account, it's just a matter of sending an email 02:27:48 And then what is password? Do they make up a random password? 02:28:07 Or is that my job? 02:28:57 from the looks of http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/accounts.html they'll assign you a random password 02:29:08 but you can change it 02:30:07 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 02:30:41 -!- Sgeo has joined. 02:31:05 Fuck XChat in the ass 02:31:33 ok 02:31:37 Or maybe it's the computer 02:31:49 ok 02:32:16 Maybe I should use Quassel, with the core elsewhere. 02:32:19 ok 02:32:25 ok 02:32:56 ok 02:33:54 -!- Sgeo has quit (Client Quit). 02:34:52 Quassel should handle disconnects with some grace, right? 02:41:58 uh... where is string defined in C++ stdlibn 02:42:11 I'm including string..... but it's still having issues. 02:42:58 oh nevermind... 02:57:59 Would any barrier monads have instances of MonadPlus or MonadGroup or MonadFix? If so, what would be the restrictions on the front and back type to be able to make such instances? I do not think it can be MonadPlus, because it does not satify the MonadPlus laws. 02:58:42 And MonadZip? 03:09:50 What are barrier monads? 03:10:04 Is zzo38 doing something awesome? 03:10:24 zzo38, are you doing something awesome? 03:11:20 something similar to data Barrier front back t = Any t | Barrier front (back -> Barrier front back t) , iirc 03:12:16 is there a transformer version? it might be likely to inherit MonadPlus from its inner monad 03:12:30 i don't really know much about MonadGroup or MonadZip 03:13:02 (i may or may not have front and back switched) 03:13:12 You have front and back correct. 03:13:31 There is no transformer version. If there can be, how to make transformer version? 03:13:37 lessee 03:14:47 something like data BarrierT front back m t = Any (m t) | Barrier m (front, back -> Barrier front back m t) 03:14:50 er 03:15:04 something like data BarrierT front back m t = AnyT (m t) | BarrierT m (front, back -> BarrierT front back m t) 03:15:18 hm still not right 03:15:25 something like data BarrierT front back m t = AnyT (m t) | BarrierT (m (front, back -> BarrierT front back m t)) 03:15:43 I think you also need parentheses in the final (m t) 03:15:48 what's the purpose of the tuple? 03:15:49 Or not. 03:15:54 No, you don't need. 03:15:59 indeed not. 03:16:36 well the tuple is to get out two values from the inner monad, although it might be better to define another data type 03:17:22 and it is not entirely clear to me exactly where the intervening m's should be 03:17:47 Nor to me; that is one reason I did not define the transformer version 03:18:30 hm maybe... 03:18:44 well, basically it just needs to work so that when m = Identity it's more or less equivalent to Barrier right? 03:18:58 But I suppose a transformer version could possibly inherit MonadPlus from its inner monad. 03:19:01 data BarrierT front back m t = AnyT t | BarrierT front (back -> m (BarrierT front back m t)) 03:19:30 then you don't need the tuple, although you might want to surround with an m when using it 03:20:19 type BarrierT' front back m t = m (BarrierT front back m t) 03:21:11 OK. So, is that the best way, now? 03:21:12 and which of BarrierT and BarrierT' should be the fundamental one is not entirely clear (except that the fundamental one should be data, not type, for instance reasons) 03:22:06 oerjan: can you do lift with BarrierT? 03:22:07 I am not sure 03:22:12 Is this difficult to figure out perfectly? 03:22:12 you don't have front 03:22:42 oh right, so lift means BarrierT' should be fundamental 03:22:59 unless you have (Monoid front) 03:23:05 in which case you can use mempty 03:23:08 zzo38: do you? 03:23:15 i don't think that's the intention 03:23:17 oerjan: oh uh you can't really do lift with BarrierT' either 03:23:22 can you 03:23:27 oh 03:23:28 AnyT 03:23:28 right 03:23:48 should be just applying liftM AnyT in the right spot 03:24:03 elliott__: Do I what? 03:24:12 have (Monoid front) 03:24:56 elliott__: The front type can be any type, so it might or might not be a monoid. 03:25:27 right 03:26:20 What is this "lift"? 03:27:03 data BarrierT' front back m t = AnyT t | BarrierT' front (back -> BarrierT front back m t); newtype BarrierT front back m t = BarrierT (m (BarrierT' front back m t)) 03:27:11 @src MonadTrans 03:27:11 Source not found. Sorry. 03:27:13 zzo38: MonadTrans 03:27:15 bah 03:27:42 (you must add to build-depends transformers == 0.2.*) 03:27:49 Barrier kind of resembles maybe-or-state to me. 03:27:51 (and import Control.Monad.Trans) 03:28:20 OK, so those are the package and modules. I will look at them 03:29:11 lift x = BarrierT (liftM AnyT x) 03:29:14 except there's no rank-2-ness 03:29:25 i think 03:30:04 oerjan: Sounds right 03:30:15 CakeProphet: It does? Well, then that might be some use? Another thing it kind of resembles to me, is the generator functions in Javascript which is why the "yield" function is called "yield". 03:30:41 what about iterators or that kind of stuff 03:30:54 althought they mix other things into it 03:35:52 Iterators? 03:36:03 er, *iteratees 03:36:36 Iteratees? 03:36:43 http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/iterIO/0.2/doc/html/Data-IterIO.html is a good introduction 03:36:52 or http://okmij.org/ftp/Streams.html#iteratee 03:41:11 Yes there is something similar, although it is different 03:41:21 But I can see the similarity. 03:44:58 -!- copumpkin has joined. 03:46:31 -!- HackEgo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 03:46:42 -!- HackEgo has joined. 04:08:00 -!- fungot has quit (*.net *.split). 04:08:00 -!- Zuu has quit (*.net *.split). 04:08:01 -!- HackEgo has quit (*.net *.split). 04:08:01 -!- copumpkin has quit (*.net *.split). 04:08:01 -!- Zetro has quit (*.net *.split). 04:08:02 -!- aloril has quit (*.net *.split). 04:08:02 -!- cheater has quit (*.net *.split). 04:08:02 -!- Patashu has quit (*.net *.split). 04:08:03 -!- Deewiant has quit (*.net *.split). 04:08:03 -!- quintopia has quit (*.net *.split). 04:08:03 -!- fizzie has quit (*.net *.split). 04:08:04 -!- yiyus has quit (*.net *.split). 04:08:04 -!- lambdabot has quit (*.net *.split). 04:08:05 -!- MichaelBurge has quit (*.net *.split). 04:08:05 -!- myndzi\ has quit (*.net *.split). 04:08:05 -!- FireFly has quit (*.net *.split). 04:08:05 -!- chickenzilla has quit (*.net *.split). 04:08:05 -!- Madoka-Kaname has quit (*.net *.split). 04:08:06 -!- zzo38 has quit (*.net *.split). 04:08:06 -!- pikhq has quit (*.net *.split). 04:08:06 -!- oerjan has quit (*.net *.split). 04:08:07 -!- Gregor has quit (*.net *.split). 04:08:08 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (*.net *.split). 04:08:08 -!- atehwa has quit (*.net *.split). 04:08:08 -!- coppro has quit (*.net *.split). 04:08:27 help 04:08:29 CakeProphet: help 04:11:25 -!- HackEgo has joined. 04:11:25 -!- copumpkin has joined. 04:11:25 -!- Madoka-Kaname has joined. 04:11:25 -!- Gregor has joined. 04:11:25 -!- zzo38 has joined. 04:11:25 -!- Patashu has joined. 04:11:25 -!- pikhq has joined. 04:11:25 -!- lambdabot has joined. 04:11:25 -!- oerjan has joined. 04:11:25 -!- Zuu has joined. 04:11:25 -!- fungot has joined. 04:11:25 -!- Deewiant has joined. 04:11:25 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 04:11:25 -!- MichaelBurge has joined. 04:11:25 -!- myndzi\ has joined. 04:11:25 -!- quintopia has joined. 04:11:25 -!- atehwa has joined. 04:11:25 -!- FireFly has joined. 04:11:25 -!- aloril has joined. 04:11:25 -!- cheater has joined. 04:11:25 -!- fizzie has joined. 04:11:25 -!- chickenzilla has joined. 04:11:25 -!- yiyus has joined. 04:11:25 -!- coppro has joined. 04:12:47 -!- Zetro has joined. 04:13:57 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 04:23:07 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 04:29:07 04:29:36 Now, would there be any such things as cobarrier comonad? 04:32:20 heh 04:32:57 well iirc there should be a way to get one value out of it... 04:33:01 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:33:19 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 04:34:21 would CoBarrier f b t = CoAny t | CoBarrier (t,f) (back -> CoBarrier f b t) work? 04:34:39 hm doesn't really seem symmetric to Barrier 04:35:07 Yes you are right, it doesn't seem symmetric to Barrier 04:35:08 Conomad is like, when two nomads go around the desert together. 04:35:14 You say, oh Jeff? He's my conomad. 04:35:26 And some people are silly and say con omad but honestly. 04:35:29 Conomads. Yes. 04:35:38 oh hm maybe the | should dualize to (,) 04:35:43 I bet oerjan wishes he has my analytical mind. 04:36:07 oerjan: w a -> w (w a), get writing 04:36:12 either that or (w a -> b) -> w a -> w b 04:36:14 and it has to be a functor 04:36:25 oh wait 04:36:28 you also need w a -> a 04:36:30 but you have that already 04:36:50 (http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/comonad/1.1.1.1/doc/html/Control-Comonad.html) 04:36:57 would CoBarrier f b t = CoBarrier t (Either f (b -> CoBarrier f b t)) 04:37:17 dunno, define those :P 04:37:29 I did read somewhere that comonads correspond to product types (such as (,)) as monads correspond to sum types (such as Either) 04:37:49 yeah so i tried switching that somehow 04:38:30 CoBarrier f b t = CoBarrier t (Either f (CoBarrier f b t -> b)) 04:40:46 that last one does sort of dualize every piece of it 04:41:30 define the methods :P 04:41:31 I can see that. 04:41:41 i'm not sure you can fmap that 04:41:43 but i don't really understand comonads :P 04:41:46 at all 04:41:50 it must be a proper functor 04:41:56 (yes you can just do it to the single "t" there but that's cheating) 04:42:14 oh right. must have the -> CoBarrier ... then 04:43:43 that's pretty clearly a Functor, anyway 04:44:39 oerjan: I wish we had a typeclass tower up to Monad that had no duplication 04:44:44 like, you can implement fmap with the Applicative methods 04:44:49 and you can implement everything above with the monad methods 04:44:56 everyone wishes that, elliott__ 04:44:59 it would be cool if we had a tower with no duplication at all 04:45:00 oerjan: lol 04:45:07 oerjan: hmm I guess fmap => join provides that 04:45:09 but it's not a very strong tower 04:45:23 um wait no 04:45:26 fmap => (pure, join) provides that 04:47:05 CoBarrier t (Left f) could go to CoBarrier (CoBarrier t (Left f)) (Left f) 04:47:27 duplicate = extend id 04:47:27 fmap (fmap f) . duplicate = duplicate . fmap f 04:47:27 that's the law, if you choose that route :P 04:47:33 extend :: (w a -> b) -> w a -> w b 04:47:35 seems easier because it's just 04:47:37 extend f = fmap f . duplicate 04:47:41 and 04:47:41 duplicate = extend id 04:47:46 * oerjan gives up immediately 04:47:49 oerjan: :D 04:47:50 sorry 04:47:54 what i f i shutted up what THEN 04:48:22 doubtful. as i said i don't understand comonads. 04:48:34 lol 04:50:22 i knew about comonads and their laws and what they do but i just today learned why they're amazing 04:50:30 and i want to use them everywhere now 04:50:45 monqy: go on 04:50:54 i'm bad at articulating things!!! 04:51:03 like why i think comonads are amazing 04:51:35 oh right it's i figured out what extend is for 04:51:42 and then it all made sense 04:51:52 what is it for? 04:52:08 ([a] -> b) -> [a] -> [b]... the question is I guess, how do you decide which groups of a to take... 04:52:23 looks like duplicate = tails is the instance 04:52:30 so it's \f -> map f . tails 04:52:35 > map f (tails [a,b,c]) 04:52:36 Ambiguous type variable `b' in the constraints: 04:52:36 `GHC.Show.Show b' 04:52:36 a... 04:52:39 >:( 04:52:41 > map f (tails [a,b,c]) :: [Expr] 04:52:42 [f [a,b,c],f [b,c],f [c],f []] 04:52:44 aha 04:52:55 monqy: I still don't get it :) 04:54:08 is [] a comonad? 04:54:11 no 04:54:19 that might explain it :P 04:54:26 it's an instance of Extend though 04:54:33 oh 04:55:21 it's a coalmostmonad :P 04:55:22 [] cannot be a comonad because there is no extract 04:55:35 oh right 04:55:52 are nonempty lists a comonad, then? 04:56:20 yes 04:56:26 or uh 04:56:29 yes 04:56:45 i was looking at the wrong thing when i was checking but then i looked at the right thing and it was there too 04:56:56 both monad and comonad... 04:57:05 monqy: what would codo syntax look like? 04:57:15 ????? 04:57:26 foo :: NonEmpty a -> NonEmpty (); foo xs = codo xs' <- xs; map (const ()) xs' 04:57:27 ? :P 04:57:41 oh, codo 04:57:42 turns into: extend (\xs' -> map (const () xs') xs 04:57:45 I just invented that 04:59:11 [5] <- x; [1,3] <- y; duplicate [x,y] codo 05:00:04 oerjan: pretty............ 05:00:31 in einen alternativen Universum, it might even make sense 05:00:37 *einem 05:08:13 -!- Vorpal has joined. 05:13:29 `quote in einem 05:13:32 27) IN EINEM ALTERNATIVEN UNIVERSUM (WO DIE NAZIS WON): So kann ich nur schliessen, dass es falsch ist, oder die Welt ist vollig BONKERS. Gegrusset seist du der Fuhrer Hitler! 05:15:56 Yes, I tried it, there is Extend for lists 05:16:35 -!- copumpkin has joined. 05:18:38 And, codo notation works. If you have RebindableSyntax you can use let { (>>=) = (=>>) } in (do { ... }) 05:19:13 a few minutes ago i tried actually using comonads but couldn't think of anything that wasn't just the same as monads, for which i am currently blaming myself 05:19:34 lol 05:21:02 :t (=>>) 05:21:02 Not in scope: `=>>' 05:21:09 fancy that. 05:21:51 Extend w => w a -> (w a -> b) -> w b 05:22:39 is there something similar to >> = 05:22:41 *? 05:22:53 w a -> b -> w b I guess 05:23:09 w >< x = w =>> const x 05:23:28 ok 05:23:37 :t (<$) 05:23:38 forall a (f :: * -> *) b. (Functor f) => a -> f b -> f a 05:23:41 ??? 05:23:49 that too :P 05:24:04 puzzling over why ($>) doesn't exist 05:24:24 The let { (>>=) = (=>>) } does not always work, it is not working like do-notation. 05:24:57 you need to do more than that to get it to work... 05:26:47 :t flip 05:26:47 forall (f :: * -> *) a b. (Functor f) => f (a -> b) -> a -> f b 05:26:56 oh hm 05:27:01 :t (*>) 05:27:02 forall (f :: * -> *) a b. (Applicative f) => f a -> f b -> f b 05:27:24 monqy: hmm can you do "w a -> w b -> w b" with comonads? 05:27:26 I think not 05:27:46 -!- Ngevd has joined. 05:28:03 monqy: but I'm not sure 05:28:12 Morning! 05:28:19 monqy: oh you can do "w a -> b -> w b" though 05:28:39 what does w a -> w b -> w b do 05:28:43 doesn't 05:28:45 codo { w } === w 05:28:45 codo { x <- w; w' } === w =>> \x -> w' 05:28:45 codo { w; w' } === w =>> \_ -> w' 05:28:48 there we are, codo 05:28:58 ... 05:28:59 codo { w } === w 05:28:59 codo { x <- w; w' } === w =>> \x -> codo w' 05:28:59 codo { w; w' } === codo { _ <- w; w' } 05:29:00 tada 05:29:10 but it's certainly possible to make things that are w a -> w b -> w b, no? 05:29:13 sure 05:29:15 just not the one you were thinking of 05:29:19 monqy: now your goal is... define OI comonad... 05:29:25 where purity ... is really hard 05:29:25 oh dear, oi 05:29:29 but side-effects fall out like butter 05:29:49 elliott__: purity is never hard in a comonad 05:29:56 yes it is 05:30:00 (a -> w a) is hard 05:30:11 hm 05:30:15 that's why you write the same thing as (w a -> a) 05:30:21 Possibly you can define OI comonad in JavaScript? Is it? 05:30:22 comonad zen 05:30:31 But I don't think so in Haskell 05:32:21 I invented Shadow comonad and found this: do { x <- [1,10]; y <- [99,999]; return (x,y); } = [(1,99),(1,999),(10,99),(10,999)] let { (>>=) = (=>>) } in do { x <- Shadow 1 10; y <- Shadow 99 999; (extract x, extract y); } = Shadow (Shadow (1,99) (1,999)) (Shadow (10,99) (10,999)) 05:32:30 what is shadow 05:33:16 It is a comonad with a normal value and a shadow value (with the same type) in every computation. 05:33:29 shadow value? 05:33:49 like a more specialised version of the ((,) a) comonad? 05:33:50 sounds like a tuple 05:33:54 yes 05:34:12 monqy: Yes, there is a similarity. 05:36:34 If you have a function f (Shadow x y) = x then (=>> f) switches the normal value (y) with the shadow value (x) 05:36:49 (The value on right is the normal value, same as the ((,) a) comonad) 05:37:35 What is the use of this comonad? 05:38:01 I just made it up because I can, and check the comonad laws are working OK. 05:38:02 which one 05:38:20 I mean, what is the use of the Shadow comonad that I just made up a few minutes ago? 05:38:46 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 05:43:49 BYOB is ridiculously weakly typed 05:45:08 more like b your own b 05:47:20 That's... what the y and o stand for 05:47:45 is this that blocks thing (what's that) 05:48:04 Yes 05:48:15 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 05:49:40 That's what the second b stands for 05:50:03 visual programminglanugage for little kids was it 05:50:11 WRONG 05:50:16 BUT CLOSE 05:50:24 visual programminglanguage for taneb 05:51:00 It's a derivative of Scratch (which is visual programming language for little kids) designed to teach people MORE ADVANCED PROGRAMMING FEATURES such as first-class functions 05:51:08 Or indeed functions 05:51:35 =/ 05:51:49 "=/" --monqy 05:52:11 i'm inferring the little kids one is teaching little kids how to do things with mutable variables and dumb control structures which is bad!!! 05:52:58 It's better than scaring them of programming FOREVER with lots of scary text 05:53:10 then: don't lots of scary text 05:53:28 do it with: pictures and metaphor 05:53:32 and simple examples 05:53:34 and baby steps 05:54:18 Scratch is also one of the hardest programming languages to make a mistake on 05:54:25 o? 05:54:26 h 05:54:28 really? 05:54:32 i'll switch to it then 05:54:34 if it really makes bugs hard 05:54:37 I'm SKEPTICAL 05:55:25 It makes bugs hard AT THE COST OF MAKING ALMOST EVERYTHING HARD 05:55:37 ah. 05:55:40 And $ ./testlm-disk.pl ../twungot/{tokens,model}.bin.irc 5 do it with 05:55:40 do it with syntax-case, to have more fun in life when you're not 05:55:40 do it with c, less so with c++, or plain c. 05:55:40 do it with syntax-rules. could you start it up once. it was probably unworkable... i didn't really think "hang on, i'll explain in a few years" 05:55:44 do it with your own. :( now, i just did 05:55:46 do it with oklopol. computed jumps... the topic. it will make sense? 05:55:58 Scratch doesn't even have custom functions 05:56:22 -!- elliott__ has set topic: computed jumps... the topic. | Esolang event @ Hel/Finland on 3.10.2011: https://wiki.helsinki.fi/display/lambda/esoteeriset+ohjelmointikielet | god bless haskell america | 12345678!&^ | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 05:56:37 Or data structures other than a string, number, or list of strings and numbers 05:57:23 I once made a brainfuck interpreter in Scratch 05:58:41 fizzie: poetry 05:59:15 fizzie: How about "qwerty"? 05:59:33 Esolangers do it with: http://sprunge.us/FBcc 06:00:13 And brainfuck doesn't have any data types either, other than cell type, and also doesn't even have custom functions. 06:00:49 elliott__: qwerty what? 06:00:54 fizzie: Lines starting "qwerty". 06:02:35 qwerty. i see where you are from the pflog0 interface. what point are you trying to load other fingerprints too 06:02:38 qwerty keyboard back in my windows days starts by explaining its name, UNK, 06:02:41 qwerty memorized in 20 different timezones when i'm UNK underwater UNK before diving. but 06:02:44 qwerty, from all nodes that can end a sentence with that then. 06:02:46 qwerty all day at work here. 06:03:08 UNK is what the Perl script calls fnord. 06:03:33 my favoiurtes are still the results from plain "do it with" 06:04:18 fizzie: what about... starting with UNK... 06:04:20 starting with UNK UNK UNK... 06:04:25 unk unk unk 06:05:24 UNK UNK UNK () 06:05:24 UNK UNK UNK f UNK 06:05:24 UNK UNK UNK UNK UNK UNK +))(if( t UNK d UNK t UNK 06:05:24 UNK UNK UNK 06:05:24 UNK UNK UNK UNK UNK, mutta suurin UNK on syntynyt UNK UNK, 06:05:34 That last bit is in Finnish. 06:05:58 "..., but the largest UNK was born UNK UNK" 06:05:58 unk problems 06:06:26 the largest unk was indeed born unk unk. 06:06:33 unk 06:07:15 UNK UNK UNK -lgcc_s -lgcc UNK -lm -lpthread -lz -ldl -lgcc_s -lgcc -lc -lgcc_s -lgcc UNK -lm -lpthread -lz -ldl -lgcc_s -lgcc -lc -lgcc_s -lgcc UNK -lm -lpthread -lz -ldl -lgcc_s -lgcc -lc -lgcc_s -lgcc 06:07:19 UNK UNK UNK UNK UNK. ja kun UNK tapahtuu kaikkien UNK, niin UNK UNK. args 06:07:27 Finnish seems popular in thesel 06:07:45 "and when UNK happens with all UNK, then UNK UNK." 06:08:56 Actually, I once made a Befunge-93 interpreter in Scratch 06:09:03 All functors in Haskell are strong. What if you want to do something else? 06:09:15 And now I will have breakfast 06:09:21 -!- Ngevd has quit (Quit: what a big quitter he is, eh?). 06:14:18 fungot WRYYY can't you do the "starts-with" thing too? 06:14:19 fizzie: where did you get my point 06:14:36 fungot: I haven't gotten your point. 06:14:37 fizzie: advice for sarahbot") or " in meinen lederhosen" ( plural) or " in meinen lederhosen" ( plural) or " broken" archives. even less chance of getting help. i am puzzled 06:15:13 fungot: I am very puzzled too. You seem to not be making any of the sense. 06:15:29 Oh noes, too much? 06:18:22 fungot. 06:18:23 elliott__: gcc ( gcc) 3.4.3 fnord ( red hat fnord) may then result in other rules being fired and so on 06:18:29 Red Hat fnord. 06:20:46 The best fnordstibution there is. 06:21:16 That was a bit contrived, fizzie. 06:21:48 Your MOM was a bit fnordtived. 06:23:03 Yes. 06:41:32 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:21:58 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 07:22:21 -!- copumpkin has joined. 07:50:48 -!- Madoka-Kaname has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 08:22:37 -!- SimonRC has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 08:22:37 -!- boily has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 08:22:37 -!- jix_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 08:24:11 -!- jix has joined. 08:28:43 -!- fungot has quit (*.net *.split). 08:28:43 -!- Zuu has quit (*.net *.split). 08:28:44 -!- aloril has quit (*.net *.split). 08:28:44 -!- cheater has quit (*.net *.split). 08:28:44 -!- Vorpal has quit (*.net *.split). 08:28:44 -!- HackEgo has quit (*.net *.split). 08:28:44 -!- Patashu has quit (*.net *.split). 08:28:44 -!- Deewiant has quit (*.net *.split). 08:28:44 -!- quintopia has quit (*.net *.split). 08:28:45 -!- fizzie has quit (*.net *.split). 08:28:45 -!- yiyus has quit (*.net *.split). 08:28:45 -!- lambdabot has quit (*.net *.split). 08:28:45 -!- MichaelBurge has quit (*.net *.split). 08:28:45 -!- myndzi\ has quit (*.net *.split). 08:28:45 -!- FireFly has quit (*.net *.split). 08:28:46 -!- chickenzilla has quit (*.net *.split). 08:28:46 -!- pikhq has quit (*.net *.split). 08:28:47 -!- Gregor has quit (*.net *.split). 08:28:47 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (*.net *.split). 08:28:47 -!- atehwa has quit (*.net *.split). 08:28:47 -!- coppro has quit (*.net *.split). 08:28:48 -!- variable has quit (*.net *.split). 08:28:50 -!- twice11 has quit (*.net *.split). 08:28:50 -!- da_petcu21 has quit (*.net *.split). 08:28:50 -!- monqy has quit (*.net *.split). 08:28:50 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (*.net *.split). 08:28:51 -!- kmc has quit (*.net *.split). 08:28:51 -!- MDude has quit (*.net *.split). 08:28:51 -!- hagb4rd has quit (*.net *.split). 08:28:51 -!- sebbu has quit (*.net *.split). 08:28:51 -!- Nisstyre has quit (*.net *.split). 08:28:51 -!- tiffany has quit (*.net *.split). 08:28:51 -!- iamcal has quit (*.net *.split). 08:39:55 -!- boily has joined. 08:39:55 -!- shachaf has joined. 08:39:55 -!- Vorpal has joined. 08:39:55 -!- variable has joined. 08:39:55 -!- HackEgo has joined. 08:39:55 -!- Gregor has joined. 08:39:55 -!- Patashu has joined. 08:39:55 -!- pikhq has joined. 08:39:55 -!- lambdabot has joined. 08:39:55 -!- Zuu has joined. 08:39:55 -!- fungot has joined. 08:39:55 -!- Deewiant has joined. 08:39:55 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 08:39:55 -!- MichaelBurge has joined. 08:39:55 -!- myndzi\ has joined. 08:39:55 -!- quintopia has joined. 08:39:55 -!- atehwa has joined. 08:39:55 -!- FireFly has joined. 08:39:55 -!- aloril has joined. 08:39:55 -!- cheater has joined. 08:39:55 -!- fizzie has joined. 08:39:55 -!- chickenzilla has joined. 08:39:55 -!- yiyus has joined. 08:39:55 -!- coppro has joined. 08:40:21 -!- twice11 has joined. 08:40:38 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 08:40:38 -!- kmc has joined. 08:40:38 -!- MDude has joined. 08:40:38 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 08:40:38 -!- sebbu has joined. 08:40:38 -!- Nisstyre has joined. 08:40:38 -!- tiffany has joined. 08:40:38 -!- iamcal has joined. 08:40:40 -!- da_petcu21 has joined. 08:40:40 -!- monqy has joined. 08:44:40 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 08:46:22 -!- ais523 has joined. 09:01:32 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Read error: No route to host). 09:15:32 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:18:03 -!- Madoka-Kaname has joined. 09:19:42 -!- ais523 has joined. 09:32:08 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:37:30 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 10:17:04 -!- da_petcu21 has left ("Linkinus - http://linkinus.com"). 10:31:00 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 10:42:20 -!- SimonRC has joined. 10:57:08 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: The Other Game). 11:08:18 -!- ais523 has joined. 11:17:21 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:20:32 -!- ais523 has joined. 11:49:30 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 11:50:10 -!- derdon has joined. 11:56:09 -!- Jafet has joined. 11:58:22 "In Deliciae Physico-Mathematicae (a 1636 magazine), German inventor Daniel Schwenter described a pen made from two quills. One quill served as a reservoir for ink inside the other quill." 11:58:24 I want one. 12:00:13 interesting 12:02:52 Sounds very retro. 12:03:25 well yes, technology wise it has become obsolete 12:04:05 1636 is a bit too old to be retro 12:04:15 ais523: what is it then? 12:04:20 Quillpunk. 12:04:26 Phantom_Hoover: heh, I like that description 12:04:26 :D 12:04:32 re^2tro, then. 12:04:38 1. retro -- (a fashion reminiscent of the past) 12:04:41 No time limits there. 12:04:57 glad you can reminisce that far back 12:05:09 fizzie, I like the way that re^2tro takes one more keypress than reretro. 12:05:10 at least one of us can 12:05:58 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_jamming 12:06:14 re^2tro = reetro, anyway, doesn't it 12:06:19 it'd have to be (re)^2tro 12:06:23 I think this may be the most veiled description of pretentious idiocy ever written. 12:07:23 Phantom_Hoover: That's why it's in Category:Practical jokes. 12:07:35 fizzie, OF COURSE 12:11:29 * CakeProphet throws a pie at fizzie's face. 12:11:44 * CakeProphet honks his horn, chuckles in delight, and dashes away. 12:12:13 HONK. 12:12:34 HONK, goes the horn pile. 12:13:31 fizzie, remind me, when did you last read Homestuck? 12:13:52 (Now would be an excellent time to catch up, since we're all waiting for the end of act 5 flash and it'll be a while.) 12:14:54 A long long time ago. 12:14:57 Maybe a month? 12:15:07 I'll catch up when I up-catch. 12:15:31 Well, Hussie's set the EoA progress bar at 56% right now and it took at least a week for it to get there from 35%. 12:15:52 It was doing the "click the panels" separate-things when I last looked at it. 12:16:13 That's not terribly far IIRC. 12:17:25 "Below is a SAD NORD" -- I have been following that prequel thing, though. 12:17:50 I missed that... 12:18:10 OH, right. 12:26:33 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 12:26:52 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 12:28:31 -!- Patashu has quit (Quit: MSN: Patashu@hotmail.com , Gmail: Patashu0@gmail.com , AIM: Patashu0 , YIM: patashu2 .). 12:45:55 -!- tiffany has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 12:46:52 -!- boily has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 12:47:59 Huh, apparently the clock sync error was overstated. 12:48:31 -!- tiffany has joined. 12:49:30 -!- sllide has joined. 13:01:59 -!- boily has joined. 13:02:20 sllide! boily! 13:02:30 Madoka-Kaname, you might want to speed up tiffany's autorejoin, BtW. 13:02:33 ohi there 13:12:46 -!- yorick has joined. 13:39:54 "Error: unidentified unSocket: 0x7f8393435380: magic FACE1010 != has 0" 13:39:57 Interesting message. 13:42:02 not equal to has 0 13:43:17 Apparently my FACE is not good enough for Java. 13:59:28 fizzie: your FACE... wait 14:00:05 well it's not that your magic FACE isn't good enough 14:00:08 it's just that it's 14:00:10 not has 0 14:00:25 it's has FAT AMERICAN FOOD YOU GREASY SLOB. 14:01:02 I wonder what would happen if you design a perfectly good general purpose language. 14:01:27 but then gave it terrible and completely non helpful error messages 14:01:44 compile error: smells like teen spirit 14:02:30 I guess if it were open source someone would eventually get around to removing them... 14:02:48 but would people use it regardless? perhaps if it did everything better than everything that currently exists... 14:06:14 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 14:37:06 * Phantom_Hoover considers that, since garnets have a dodecahedral crystal habit, it is entirely possible to cut one along the cleavage planes to create the single best d12 in existence. 14:37:30 Phantom_Hoover: you'd still have to make sure the cleavage planes were equally spaced 14:37:50 ais523, well yes, you'd need to make sure it was regular. 14:38:21 mmmmm, cleavage 14:38:47 Hmm, wait, WP doesn't actually give any cleavage for garnet. 14:39:41 "Garnets do not show cleavage, so when they fracture under stress, sharp irregular pieces are formed." 14:39:46 Garnets are very modest. 14:43:16 *But* it's probably possible to get naturally-formed garnets which are sufficiently perfect for dice purposes. 14:43:42 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 14:48:16 Phantom_Hoover: not likely I would say. 14:50:09 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Andradite-Mali.jpg 14:50:11 Sure about that? 14:50:26 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Grossular-ww51a.jpg 14:52:20 eh still not ideal. 14:52:58 I'm sure you could find one though 14:59:03 >:> 15:20:40 -!- Ngevd has joined. 15:21:17 "I seriously pondered adding wenches to the list. But this isn't that sort of comic." 15:21:23 Hello! 15:21:29 -!- copumpkin has joined. 15:21:47 Ngevd, a 12-sided die made of a single garnet crystal: best thing? 15:22:09 (For over-the-top bestness, make it out of pyrope and invent a Homestuck tabletop game.) 15:22:25 Only if the pips are sapphire 15:22:54 it doesn't need any pips at all 15:23:02 just have it as a die that's blank on every side 15:23:20 (I actually have a set of those, including a 12-sider; I tend to deliberately roll them by accident from time to time to mystify and amuse people) 15:23:27 A crystal with natural formations that look like numbers. 15:23:46 Or indeed natural formations that don't look like numbers. 15:25:04 "No, look, that white vein is parallel to the edge! That makes it a seven!" "No, the black spot is in the corner! It's a three!" 15:31:07 http://dl.dropbox.com/u/37707/Untitled.png 15:32:35 Useful advise: Haskell.com isn't actually about Haskell 15:35:57 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 15:36:00 -!- pikhq has joined. 15:36:08 Ngevd, *advice 15:36:18 Not when it's a verb 15:38:20 There, I wrote a Subleq processor in Verilog. 15:38:33 It probably doesn't work, because I don't actually know Verilog very well. 15:42:38 http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Numeric_Prelude 15:42:40 interesting 15:43:56 Ngevd, incidentally, how old is Elliott 'Facekicker' Hird? 15:44:12 15-17 15:44:20 Hmm. 15:44:22 Probably 16 or seventeen 15:44:25 16 15:44:36 Aha, so he could well be our elliott__ from a year in the future? 15:44:55 He was 9-10 when the kicking happened 15:44:56 Sent back in time to kick your friend in the face because her face is like Sarah Connor? 15:45:02 Hmm. 15:45:05 A clone, perhaps? 15:45:12 A son? 15:45:21 elliott__'s evil twin brother? 15:45:27 Next, I suppose I'll add a transport-triggered coprocessor. Because implementing a right shift using only subtraction is... really inefficient. 15:45:32 Nah, that's me 15:45:39 He has two. 15:45:39 Except I'm the good one 15:45:56 So... I'm elliott__'s good triplet? 15:45:59 Yes. 15:47:34 * Phantom_Hoover wonders if he's actually incredibly lethargic and irritable and just hasn't noticed because he doesn't like coffee. 15:47:54 Maybe if I have some I'll turn into, like, Jesus Einstein. 15:47:57 Or Albert Christ. 15:47:59 ...I don't like coffee! 15:48:01 My god! 15:48:38 tswett: reminds me of trying to implement a 64-bit multiplication efficiently with only 8-bit increment and decrement 15:48:42 Ngevd, well yes but as we know you're elliott__'s good triplet so you're nice anyway and good is dumb so it never stood out. 15:48:47 in the end I gave up, it's doable but I didn't want to put in the effort 15:48:58 Aww. 15:49:01 ais523, TRY SOME COFFEE 15:49:19 Is elliott__ the neutral one or the evil one? 15:49:27 Ngevd, maybe Facekicker is an evil genius and he's the one behind the neutrinopocalypse. 15:49:39 The hexamopocalypse 15:49:50 Ngevd, the evil one, but Facekicker is the really evil one. 15:49:55 You're neutral. 15:51:02 Lawful or Chaotic? 15:51:13 Lawful. 15:51:14 -!- sllide has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:51:20 Ooh good 15:51:26 You were in that youth parliament thing nobody cares about, after all. 15:52:27 So... elliott__ is chaotic evil and 'Facekicker' Hird is neutral evil? 15:53:07 are you Righteous Evil 15:53:17 I'm lawful neutral 15:55:51 * CakeProphet is chaotic good. 15:59:19 I must say, I prefer esoteric programming languages that can emulate random access machines without a time penalty. 16:00:02 With BF, if you frequently need to access one thing that's at the beginning of memory and another that's at the end, you will die. 16:00:23 Unless memory wraps around 16:01:49 if you're in the middle of memory, wrapping doesn't help a bit 16:04:51 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:05:07 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 16:05:08 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:07:03 well a BF /compiler/ can emulate random access, sure. 16:07:16 -!- monqy has joined. 16:07:55 -!- zzo38 has joined. 16:12:23 so could an optimising interp 16:12:49 -!- azaq23 has joined. 16:13:01 -!- azaq23 has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 16:14:50 So, this processor currently uses 60 lines of code. Let's say one logic element is needed per line of code. This one really cheap FPGA seems to have 25,000 logic elements. So it ought to be able to hold... about 400 processors. 16:14:59 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 16:15:27 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 16:16:58 Let's say the clock runs at 625 MHz. The processor executes an instruction every two or three cycles. So that means we should be able to execute... eighty billion instructions per second. 16:19:35 My clever three cell brainfuck to lambdabot flavour haskell translator's initial tape is made up of consts, flips, ids, and brackets 16:20:06 "three cell brainfuck to lambdabot flavour haskell translator" ???????? 16:20:15 Yes 16:20:36 but that's 4 things in 3 cells. 16:21:08 three cell is a compound adjective referring to brainfuck rather than the translator 16:21:44 lambdabot flavour refers to the haskell available through lambdabot 16:21:57 so the tralsnator is also brainfuck but with functions>? 16:22:02 3reqw3r[-oo3rw33333][[][ 16:22:13 It translates brainfuck to haskell 16:22:29 WITHOUT IO 16:22:31 yes I understand that much. 16:22:42 The translator is written in Python 16:22:48 Just to annoy everyone 16:22:58 i'M JUST CONFUSED ABOUT "the initial tape is made up of consts, flips, ids, and brackets" 16:23:42 It's a pretty literal translation 16:24:06 How can a BF tape contain consts, flips, and ids? 16:24:12 flip (flip id (const id)) (flip (flip id (const id)) (const id)) works out as a three cell church list filled with church zeroes 16:24:36 but you can't do any folds right? 16:24:42 brainfuck doesn't work like that. 16:26:02 I'm only using consts, flips, ids, joins, aps, (.)s, and brackets 16:26:20 and a church list folds things over itself.. yes? 16:26:31 It's a bit like a linked list 16:27:26 oh nevermind I was thinking of the church list that's defined by its right fold function 16:28:43 cons = \h t c n. c h (t c n) 16:29:03 nil = \c n. n aka false 16:29:50 + translates as ap ((.) ((.) flip (flip id))((.) (ap (.))(flip id const)))(flip id(const id)) 16:29:58 Obfuscated haskell ftw 16:30:21 so you're basically translating brainfuck into lambda calculus 16:30:27 CLOSE 16:30:31 or SKI 16:30:33 Combinatory logic 16:30:38 BCKWSI 16:30:43 yes 16:30:43 Like MIBBLLII 16:30:53 Which is the long term aim 16:31:29 I don't know if the fold-list would work for brainfuck 16:31:46 Remind me, what exactly is a fold list? 16:31:51 Can you do like Lazy K, having it translate into the IO monad, from a church encoding? 16:31:59 well that's not the technical name for it. 16:32:14 Ngevd: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_encoding#Higher-order_function 16:35:00 it would be kind of cumbersome because bf isn't very foldy 16:39:31 I have a NSF music titled "Un5th Symphony" 16:53:01 + is S(B(BC(CI))(\t.B(SB)(CIK)t))(CI(KI)) 16:53:11 Whoops, wrong one 16:53:38 + is S(B(BC(CI))(B(SB)(CIK)))(CI(KI)) 16:53:46 - is S(B(BC(CI))(B(C(BC(B(BC)(C(BC(B(BB)(CB(B(B(CI))(CI)))))K)))I)(CIK)))(CI(KI)) 16:53:49 Spot the difference 16:57:30 -!- derrik has joined. 17:01:26 > is S(B(BC(CI))(B(CIK)(CI(KI))))(S(B(BC(CI))(B(CI(KI))(CI(KI))))(CIK)) 17:01:27 Not in scope: `is'Not in scope: data constructor `S'Not in scope: data cons... 17:01:35 Okay, < is S(B(BC(CI))(B(CIK)(CI(KI))))(S(B(BC(CI))(B(CI(KI))(CI(KI))))(CIK)) 17:01:43 Either's good 17:02:13 -!- Ngevd has changed nick to Taneb|Hovercraft. 17:02:22 hi 17:03:27 Oh, this is no good 17:03:43 -!- Taneb|Hovercraft has quit (Quit: I CANNAE TAKE IT ANY MORE ). 17:03:55 bye 17:04:29 Quillpunk. 17:04:32 Phantom_Hoover: I love you. 17:04:33 http://sprunge.us/NXXi 17:05:44 Huh, apparently the clock sync error was overstated. 17:05:45 Yaaaaaaaaay. 17:06:46 I wrote the http://sprunge.us/NXXi it is document about my idea related to specifying preparing printouts of literate Haskell program in a Cabal package. Read it please make opinion/suggestion/question/complain 17:13:53 If you use LaTeX or ConTeXt or XeTeX or whatever, or even things I have not listed, you can write those sections that I did not write. 17:15:21 http://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/kwjks/assuming_that_highenergy_neutrinos_are/ 17:15:34 4 downvotes. 17:15:46 I... don't see why. 17:16:00 Phantom_Hoover: Surely by now you know that the up/downvote totals are heavily fudged. 17:16:14 elliott__, but the margin is the same, no? 17:16:24 Phantom_Hoover: It's probably more like one upvote, one downvote, man. 17:16:33 There, I upvoted it. 17:16:38 Both the up and downvote counts went up. 17:16:40 Totally fudged. 17:17:28 Did you read document about X-Printout- fields in Cabal? 17:17:42 elliott__, sure, but the margin is still -3. 17:18:05 Phantom_Hoover: I'll get someone else to upvote it when they're online. :p 17:18:14 Is there anything you see wrong with my file? 17:18:24 Phantom_Hoover: Did you check nobody had submitted anything similra before? 17:18:27 There's 17:18:28 How could you violate causality with FTL neutrinos? (self.askscience) 17:18:28 submitted 2 days ago by AllUZombies 17:18:28 2 commentssharesavehidereport 17:18:38 http://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/ktd14/how_could_you_violate_causality_with_ftl_neutrinos/ 17:18:42 elliott__: https://plus.google.com/117832052760789742441/about _HI IM A BIG DUDE FOR BIG PEOPLE_ 17:18:53 Actually I already found one thing wrong and I corrected it by adding "The files listed in this field are not included in the Cabal package." in the section about X-Printout-Require field, to clarify that. 17:18:58 CakeProphet: Yes you are like the last person to comment on that. 17:19:09 elliott__: last? 17:19:13 well, obviously 17:19:25 elliott__: you are the last person to mention that I commented on it. 17:19:44 * elliott__ wonders how to delete a Google+ account. 17:19:56 hack it 17:19:58 put porn on it. 17:20:04 elliott__, that question's different, though. 17:20:10 CakeProphet: I could just change my name to "ehird .". 17:20:12 Google doesn't want you do delete anything. 17:20:13 I'm asking how you'd actually set up apparatus to do it. 17:20:23 Phantom_Hoover: Lots of rockets. 17:20:32 elliott__: oh so that's yours? 17:20:38 The Urist McElliott method. 17:20:51 CakeProphet: Yes, obviously. 17:21:08 elliott__: it could have been another elliott hird that is an egg that vanquished time. 17:21:26 CakeProphet: I was /born/ in an egg that vanquished time, you philistine. 17:21:59 elliott__: you want to be Google+ friendz? 17:22:09 CakeProphet: I want nothing less. 17:24:58 Is there such thing as fax gopher client? 17:25:26 elliott__: :( 17:25:43 CakeProphet: Have hope: It could be just because of my objection to Google+. 17:26:05 elliott__, what objection? 17:26:18 -!- Ngevd has joined. 17:26:57 Phantom_Hoover: (a) Google know more than they should about the social graph as it is, they don't need us explicitly TELLING them about it; (b) their names policy is completely unacceptable and this is a big deal. 17:27:18 I think I have defined enough to make a Iterated Collatz Function to MIBBLLII translation 17:27:28 elliott__: Exactly. As I said. Google doesn't want you to delete anything. 17:27:43 Thanks to oerjan's recent Iterated Collatz Function to brainfuck translation 17:28:39 elliott__, what is it? 17:28:45 Phantom_Hoover: What is what? 17:28:50 Their names policy. 17:28:55 An esolanger from Hexham, but that's not important 17:29:21 UCAS apparently needs me to tell it that I'm a UK national about five times. 17:29:32 Phantom_Hoover: "You must use your full legal name -- which we assume includes a surname, because there are no people with legal names without surnames -- exclusively, and if you do not completely follow this, or if you follow it but we think your name looks weird, we will ban you." 17:29:44 (Amusingly, tons of Google employees were found to be using names violating this policy.) 17:30:13 What if someone has same name as someone else? 17:30:28 Then my friend gets kicked in the face 17:30:30 IN THE PAST 17:30:54 do you want ngevds friend to be kicked in the face in the past??? 17:30:59 having the same name as someone else: its bad 17:31:41 should I a) buy showtime and watch the new season of Dexter as it airs b) wait for Hulu/torrent/internets 17:32:40 c. 17:32:44 Definitely c 17:33:04 No! g. Definitely g 17:35:32 -!- Ngevd has changed nick to Taneb|Hovercraft. 17:35:48 c) act out a deep-seated serial killer fantasy, influenced by its glorification in the series. 17:36:51 g) write dope hip hop lyrics to convey realistic yet positive messages to today's youth 17:38:20 -!- ive has joined. 17:45:39 What happened to d, e, f? 17:46:18 Gregor: I killed them, overtaken by hedonistic bloodlust. 17:46:27 Oh dear. 17:47:44 h) take a night on the town, sampling fine cigars, causing pandamonia in numerous strip clubs, and discovering a taste for black tar heroin. 17:54:14 Phantom_Hoover: ucas is fucking annoying. 17:55:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 17:55:38 United Canadian and American States? 17:56:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:56:22 This is the actual most obnoxious low-battery routine. 17:56:37 (fictional country in the shadowrun universe) 17:56:41 Without warning, it hibernates the computer and cocks it up so that I have to hard reboot. 17:57:22 interestingly enough one of the presidents of UCAS was a dragon. 17:57:27 first dragon president. 17:57:41 17:54:14: Phantom_Hoover: ucas is fucking annoying. 17:57:54 Well I can't imagine they designed it with toddlers in mind. 17:58:39 are you sure? 17:58:49 i think that's exactly who it was designed for 18:00:48 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:08:27 -!- MSleep has joined. 18:15:17 -!- derrik has left. 18:15:23 -!- MDude has joined. 18:17:38 -!- MSleep has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:23:20 Hello! 18:23:28 -!- Taneb|Hovercraft has changed nick to Ngevd. 18:24:45 wsrfwreweyg 18:24:49 18:52:45 playing music likes to freeze everything on my computer for some reason. 18:52:56 Playing music 18:52:59 Hmm 18:53:01 That's an idea 18:56:13 Due to a (now resolved) DNS issue, some Wikimedia sites, including Wikipedia, may be unreachable for the next hour or so. If it doesn't work for you, try again a bit later. 18:56:18 the world will be in ruins shortly 18:56:27 Oh dear god. 18:56:44 HALP HOW DID I KNOW STUFF NOW? 18:56:45 And it's time we saw a miracle 18:56:54 Come on it's time fore something miracle 18:57:00 To pull us through 18:57:12 Oh how I have missed you Matt Bellamy's voice 18:57:23 MoThErFuCkIn MiRaClEs 18:57:30 how do they work? 18:57:37 i don't know! 18:57:37 Wow, that looks terrible in Libertine. 18:57:49 http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:5fWK0DkuNE8J:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cache+wikipedia+cache&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us 18:58:17 CakeProphet: It's like you're IN THEMATRIXE............E......... 18:59:58 yes i see the code am than best ever was. 19:01:12 I want a computer with a cache cache. 19:01:23 to cache previous cache states. 19:01:34 So CakeProphet polish up your keyboard and open emacs hard / 'cos hell's broke loose in #esoteric and the devil writes the code 19:01:36 this is in no way equivalent to having just a really large cache. 19:01:42 This is not going to end well. 19:01:45 happy australian mailman mailing list memberships reminder day! 19:01:53 Phantom_Hoover: okay I am now starting at emacs. 19:02:36 If you win you get this shiny keyboard made of... spode? / but if you lose the devil gets your... mode? 19:02:43 .. 19:02:52 can I give him perl-mode because it's bad? 19:02:56 and keep cperl? 19:03:02 Yes. 19:03:09 challenge accepted. 19:03:18 The devil is not an Emacs connoisseur. 19:03:38 I have been very happy since I worked out how to spell connoisseur without needing to look it up. 19:04:10 committee is an annoying word to type 19:04:16 I remember I had typing classes and they would use that one a lot 19:04:19 So CakeProphet polish up your keyboard and open emacs hard / 'cos hell's broke loose in #esoteric and the devil writes the code 19:04:20 probably because they hate us. 19:04:21 Phantom_Hoover: no stop. 19:04:31 I have been very happy since I worked out how to spell connoisseur without needing to look it up. 19:04:46 Phantom_Hoover: One day I will be able to spell bureaucrat without lookgi it up-- OMFG I JUST DID 19:04:55 Damn French. 19:04:56 Wait can I do aficionado now too. No I can't. 19:05:20 Aficionado is correct. 19:05:31 I introduced a friend to the concept of Hilbert's Grand Hotel today 19:05:43 To explain convergence 19:05:51 Phantom_Hoover: Yes but I used my spell chequer. 19:05:53 Convergence? 19:05:59 It was like aficianado before that. 19:06:01 Of a series 19:06:23 Ngevd, oh man, you're reminding me of that time I tried to convince my chemistry teacher that no, space would not fill up if we dumped nuclear waste into it. 19:06:49 Did you tell him/her about Hilbert's Grand Hotel? 19:06:58 Oh god I can just imagine that now 19:07:00 how to solve landfill problems: space catapult 19:07:03 Phantom_Hoover: To be fair, nuclear waste is pretty big. 19:07:04 PRETTY BIG. 19:07:10 also, a useful weapon against incoming asteroids and space aliens. 19:07:16 "Do you think Mr Hilbert would let us put Nuclear Waste in some of his rooms?" 19:07:17 hurl our mounds of garbage at them. 19:07:30 Someone quipped that we were hardly going to run out since it's expanding on the time, whereupon she said "if space is expanding what's it expanding into YOU CAN'T EXPLAIN THAT" "yes I can" "SHUT UP PH NO YOU DON'T" 19:07:42 Well OK she didn't call me PH but otherwise it's accurate. 19:07:50 Phantom_Hoover: Can you get people to start calling you PH irl. 19:07:57 no 19:07:58 I kind of need you to do that for my mental stability. 19:08:01 No you don't understand 19:08:06 I literally think your real name is Phantom Hoover 19:08:09 elliott__: space can only handle so many PRETTY BIG things. 19:08:16 It is irreversibly ingrained into my mind 19:08:22 elliott__, I thought you thought my real name was something else. 19:08:34 Phantom_Hoover: Yes I figured out your real name but I don't really know that as your real name. 19:08:42 this is similar to how I think Gregor is actually Roger G. 19:08:45 I think it's a fair point to bring up 19:08:47 often 19:08:48 INTELLECTUALLY that's your real name but my brain would never respond with anything other than Phantom Hoover in response to a snap query as to what your real name is. 19:08:51 that this is what I think. 19:09:03 ais523: happy that, btw 19:09:05 Sometimes I think my name is Taneb 19:09:13 It's a bit weird 19:09:19 -!- CakeProphet has changed nick to tehporPekaC. 19:09:22 * tehporPekaC evolves. 19:09:29 elliott__: it took me almost 10 seconds to expand the pronoun there 19:09:32 "Hello, I'm Taneb." "Nathan... what?" 19:09:57 Ngevd: Your real name should be Taneb, too. 19:09:59 Just Taneb. 19:10:09 I don't think I've introduced myself as ais523 to anyone in real life yet 19:10:11 elliott__, he couldn't have a Google+ account then. 19:10:14 "Taneb, too. 19:10:15 I /have/ introduced myself as callforjudgement to people, though 19:10:19 Just Taneb."? 19:10:30 Phantom_Hoover: Well OK he needs to change his legal name to "Taneb ." 19:10:31 'tis easier to pronounce, and it's the name they knew me by already 19:10:34 my name is unknown to anyone in the universe. 19:10:38 ais523: haha, how did that happen? 19:10:48 I have mentally referred to myself as Phantom_Hoover, though. 19:10:51 Pokémon VGC 19:10:56 Phantom_Hoover: With the underscore? 19:11:04 I even named the player on the cartridge CFJ for consistency 19:11:20 CFJ would be a pretty good set of initials to have. 19:11:23 -!- Ngevd has changed nick to Taneb|Hovercraft. 19:11:26 cfj would be a good Unix account name, in turn. 19:11:28 elliott__, no, that's just because a tab completion is a terrible thing to waste. 19:11:47 -!- Vorpal has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net). 19:12:10 ais523: actually your name causes my brain-talking engine real difficulty, because even aye eye ess is a bit of a pain to pronounce 19:12:24 yep 19:12:26 -!- ais523 has changed nick to callforjudgement. 19:12:28 is this better? 19:12:36 not really, it doesn't look like you at all 19:12:40 heh 19:12:46 calling myself ais523 would be weird in some places 19:12:53 this nick's a newer one, but possibly a better one 19:12:56 elliott__: are you a big dude? 19:13:02 -!- elliott__ has changed nick to cfj. 19:13:07 holy shit, this isn't registered 19:13:09 -!- Vorpal has joined. 19:13:16 callforjudgement, WHAT IS YOUR MIDDLE NAME TELL ME DAMMIT 19:13:18 cfj: are you a big dude? 19:13:21 TELL ME OR I KILL VORPAL 19:13:23 Phantom_Hoover: for 19:13:27 -!- cfj has quit (Changing host). 19:13:27 -!- cfj has joined. 19:13:34 yay, this nick is now mine 19:13:36 callforjudgement: let us confuse together 19:13:41 TELL ME OR I KILL VORPAL <-- ? 19:13:46 cfj: are you a big dude??? 19:13:49 oh cfj 19:13:56 wait, cfj? callforjudgement? 19:14:00 callforjudgement, Alex For Smith, abbreviated Alex I. Smith. 19:14:01 same buy? 19:14:02 Phantom_Hoover: Ibiza. 19:14:09 Alex Ibiza Smith. 19:14:12 hm 19:14:16 Vorpal using sound skills of deduction. 19:14:19 Vorpal: cfj is elliott pretending to be me 19:14:20 nope 19:14:24 callforjudgement: no I'm not 19:14:27 callforjudgement, right and you are ais 19:14:28 I'm elliott pretending to be me 19:14:30 Vorpal: 15:13 -!- cfj [~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott] has joined #esoteric 19:14:45 Vorpal: callforjudgement is my actual nick, though 19:14:46 cfj: nice act. 19:14:53 it's in my email address, for one thing 19:14:57 tehporPekaC, I saw a bit later, I missed where callforjudgement changed his nick 19:14:58 tehporPekaC: Dude, I never left the channel, that's just the hostname crap. 19:15:07 callforjudgement, what is it dammit 19:15:07 callforjudgement: FSVO your email address 19:15:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to jfc. 19:15:16 well, I have more than one 19:15:20 the other one has ais523 in it 19:15:20 -!- jfc has changed nick to ph. 19:15:21 Just fucking cidding? 19:15:24 NO 19:15:25 IT MUST BE 19:15:26 UPPERCASE 19:15:28 "PH" 19:15:31 -!- ph has changed nick to PH. 19:15:32 cfj: oh okay. How was I supposed to know then? :P 19:15:35 cfj, "just for cider" 19:15:40 tehporPekaC: because it gives it in the quit message 19:15:47 -NickServ- Registered : Jul 23 14:38:30 2002 (9 years, 10 weeks, 1 day, 04:37:20 ago) 19:15:47 -NickServ- Last seen : (about 0 weeks ago) 19:15:49 Dammit. 19:16:01 That's a long time to use a nick. 19:16:06 -!- tehporPekaC has changed nick to sidebrun. 19:16:07 -!- PH has changed nick to dmm. 19:16:15 -!- dmm has changed nick to Prince_Charles. 19:16:22 quick everyone use a different nick 19:16:22 -!- Taneb|Hovercraft has changed nick to Ngevd. 19:16:25 and then when someone else enters 19:16:28 they will be so confused. 19:16:36 also change username real name etc 19:16:37 cfj, I always pronounce ais a bit like ace 19:16:41 can I un-vhost? 19:16:46 Someone can use my nick for a bit if they want. 19:16:50 sidebrun: /ns logout 19:17:01 My nick being elliott. 19:17:12 sidebrun, by reconnecting and not identifying, that is all as far as I know 19:17:17 Vorpal: Dude, /ns logout. 19:17:20 oh okay 19:17:26 cfj: dudddidueududude 19:19:08 Now that I'm Ngevd here, the only places where I go with any frequency with the same username are the IWC forums and Twitter 19:19:17 this is confusing enough that I had to /whois Vorpal to make sure it was the right Vorpal 19:19:59 I only changed my nick as I do by standard 19:20:04 I am Ngevd most of the time 19:20:19 Taneb when Ngevd is not available, and when there is an event at #darths 19:20:24 "Once built, we can dynamically load the resulting dylib into LLVMs opt tool using the -load option, and then use the new -ghc-aa flag to tell LLVM to use our alias analyser as a complement to the default one. Unfortunately, due to an infelicity in LLVM, we have to specify -ghc-aa in between every single optimisation pass if we want to be sure that it is used. So the final command line to opt, including al 19:20:24 l passes done by the standard -O2 optimisation level, and the -loop-reduce strength-reduction pass, needs to look something like this: 19:20:24 opt -load GHCAliasAnalysis.dylib -S -no-aa -tbaa -basicaa -ghc-aa \ 19:20:25 -globalopt -ghc-aa -ghc-aa -ipsccp -ghc-aa -deadargelim -ghc-aa -instcombine -ghc-aa -simplifycfg \ 19:20:27 -ghc-aa -basiccg -ghc-aa -prune-eh -ghc-aa -inline -ghc-aa -functionattrs -ghc-aa -scalarrepl-ssa \ 19:20:29 -ghc-aa -domtree -ghc-aa -early-cse -ghc-aa -simplify-libcalls -ghc-aa -lazy-value-info -ghc-aa \ 19:20:31 -jump-threading -ghc-aa -correlated-propagation -ghc-aa -simplifycfg -ghc-aa -instcombine -ghc-aa \ 19:20:33 -tailcallelim -ghc-aa -simplifycfg -ghc-aa -reassociate -ghc-aa -domtree -ghc-aa -loops -ghc-aa \ 19:20:34 Taneb|Hovercraft when I am either here or not here 19:20:35 -loop-simplify -ghc-aa -lcssa -ghc-aa -loop-rotate -ghc-aa -licm -ghc-aa -lcssa -ghc-aa -loop-unswitch \ 19:20:37 -ghc-aa -instcombine -ghc-aa -scalar-evolution -ghc-aa -loop-simplify -ghc-aa -lcssa -ghc-aa -indvars \ 19:20:39 -ghc-aa -loop-idiom -ghc-aa -loop-deletion -ghc-aa -loop-unroll -ghc-aa -memdep -ghc-aa -gvn -ghc-aa \ 19:20:41 -memdep -ghc-aa -memcpyopt -ghc-aa -sccp -ghc-aa -instcombine -ghc-aa -lazy-value-info -ghc-aa \ 19:20:41 Taneb|Kindle when I am on a Kindle 19:20:43 -jump-threading -ghc-aa -correlated-propagation -ghc-aa -domtree -ghc-aa -memdep -ghc-aa -dse \ 19:20:45 -ghc-aa -adce -ghc-aa -simplifycfg -ghc-aa -instcombine -ghc-aa -strip-dead-prototypes -ghc-aa \ 19:20:47 -constmerge -loop-reduce" 19:20:49 ugh 19:20:51 why did that have to be pre-linewrapped 19:22:11 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523. 19:22:19 -!- sidebrun has changed nick to Kallisti. 19:22:36 ais523: lame 19:22:49 people in a different channel were shouting at me 19:22:49 nooooooo 19:22:51 already taken. 19:22:56 they don't like seeing me as anything but ais523 19:23:15 #nethack? 19:24:34 Learn You A Haskell has a sentence "Use this if you are French." 19:24:45 "We can't implement this scheme in LLVM. We resort to post processing the assembly it produces." 19:24:46 -!- Kallisti has changed nick to CakeProphet. 19:24:48 cfj, that was a LOT of flags, several duplicate ones too? 19:24:48 oh come on 19:24:57 Vorpal: did you _read_ the paragraph before the flags? 19:25:30 Prince_Charles: How much did you pay for the latest Bundle. 19:25:30 cfj, ah no, it scrolled out of the window due to the length of the paste XD 19:25:34 Vorpal: lol 19:26:06 NickServ(NickServ@services.)- Access flag(s) +voOtsriRfAF in #anon 19:26:06 wat 19:26:10 I don't think I've ever been in that channel 19:26:25 NickServ(NickServ@services.)- Access flag(s) +A in #omgwtf 19:26:29 wat 19:26:31 -!- Prince_Charles has changed nick to elliott. 19:26:42 Aaaaaaaand... 19:26:48 -!- elliott has quit (Disconnected by services). 19:26:51 finally 19:26:54 CakeProphet, huh? 19:27:10 -!- elliott has joined. 19:27:11 eagerly awaiting -_- 19:27:11 output from /ns infochans 19:27:13 -!- elliott has quit (Disconnected by services). 19:27:22 looooooooool 19:27:25 CakeProphet, says invalid command for me 19:27:38 -!- Prince_Charles has joined. 19:27:42 cfj, ___ 19:27:44 /ns ghost Prince_Charles 19:27:45 CakeProphet, what was the actual command you used? 19:27:50 (That's an all-caps -_-.) 19:27:54 Prince_Charles: X-D 19:28:11 Prince_Charles: But srsly, 19:28:14 Prince_Charles: How much did you pay for the latest Bundle. 19:28:17 Vorpal: er listchans 19:28:20 ah 19:28:34 cfj, $10. 19:28:43 hm... nothing unexpected there for me, a few channels I remember but haven't been in for ages, that is about it 19:28:47 Unless the Frozenbyte stuff is good and works, $10 wasted. 19:28:47 Prince_Charles: I'll pay $10.01. 19:29:00 Vorpal: maybe my memory is just bad :P 19:29:06 cfj, no don't do it it'll work for you and I will sad. 19:29:08 Prince_Charles, the frozen byte stuff won't work on intel graphics 19:29:26 Prince_Charles: Dude, do what I told you to: Get a Twitter and bother @bundle about it. 19:29:27 OK 19:29:28 known issue as listed on some page there 19:29:40 cfj, AND report it to bugzilla 19:29:53 Vorpal: He already fucking did, like I said last time, that won't help in a billion years. 19:29:59 hm 19:30:06 so twitter then, sounds like a good plan 19:30:21 Vorpal, I have had literally no human response thus far. 19:30:31 Prince_Charles: Was that OK re: Twitter? 19:30:31 Prince_Charles, anyway Trine is amazing, but requires non-intel graphics 19:30:37 I doubt I will get one if I throw it into the vast bug pool of Twitter. 19:30:50 Because it really is the best strategy, if you see the rate of responses to people on http://twitter.com/#!/humble. 19:31:00 Prince_Charles: Dude, if you ping @humble they'll see it. 19:31:06 cfj, I'm going to try the Frozenbyte stuff to get an empirical proof that I paid for a package of software which doesn't work. 19:31:11 cfj, I meant Bugzilla. 19:31:18 Blame my lower brain functions. 19:31:46 wtf is Trauma? a new game heh 19:32:07 oh well will download it once I'm back on my desktop 19:33:23 ...I apparently have op privs on a channel called #anon 19:33:26 I wonder when that happened. 19:33:35 no one's in it but it's registered still. 19:33:49 CakeProphet, who registered it? Who else have access in it? 19:34:00 ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- Founder : CakeProphet 19:34:02 apparently I did :P 19:34:08 XD 19:34:13 I think I saw a Trauma review somewhere recently. 19:34:26 3 years ago. 19:34:32 fizzie, any good? 19:34:39 CakeProphet, dig up your irc logs from back then 19:34:45 "my irc logs" ha 19:34:49 CakeProphet, ? 19:34:51 I don't have those. 19:34:53 oh 19:35:01 then wonder forever 19:35:28 Vorpal: Well, uh... "different", I believe. The reviewer liked it. 19:36:39 fizzie, different like for example Bastion, Braid or that black and white game I forgot the name of currently 19:36:41 ? 19:37:03 I believe you're thinking of the game Black and White 19:37:30 no not that one 19:37:54 a recent game, that was made in black and white and some shades of gray 19:37:57 puzzle game 19:38:44 LIMBO? 19:38:48 Vorpal: It's more of a story/interactive/thing than a game, I think. But I haven't played it. 19:39:00 Deewiant, yes, thanks 19:39:03 fizzie, right 19:39:17 fizzie: Prince_Charles: Vorpal: So the Bundles have made over $6.510 million in total now. 19:39:36 (Wikipedia figures + a day old or so total of the current Bundle, but it had doubled from the previous value in, like, hours, so it'll be way more now.) 19:39:39 cfj, quite impressive 19:39:43 this game is puzzle game that is black and white, but I doubt it's what you're thinking of: http://www.flasharcade.com/arcade-games/play/shift-game.html 19:39:47 none from me though. i just sit and suffer when people tell me how awesome they are. 19:39:56 Vorpal: Bit more than "quite". 19:39:58 CakeProphet, see above, Limbo 19:40:17 oh 19:40:26 It's good to finally have some proof that traditional distribution models are completely inefficient. 19:40:44 cfj, how much has this bundle made? 19:40:53 quintopia: Context? 19:40:57 due to the more than average thing it seems to be climbing VEEERY slowly up 19:41:04 Vorpal: $480,779.60 now. 19:41:10 heh 19:41:25 Vorpal: Well... it went from $200,000 to $400,000 in hours. 19:41:41 I don't know why the more than average thing would make it go slower; it was present in previous Bundles too. 19:42:03 Anyway, there's twelve days left, so I suspect it'll make more than the Frozenbyte bundle. 19:42:11 cfj, it wasn't introduced right at the start last time 19:42:13 I guess: one to two million. 19:42:36 Probably less than two million but c'mon, it's only been up a few days and it's half way to what the Frozenbyte bundle got. 19:42:41 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:42:43 fizzie: "TRAUMA is a unique photographic experience by game designer Krystian Majewski. Dive into the mind of a traumatized young woman to learn and understand." 19:42:48 Oh no, it's one of those Art Games. 19:42:55 cfj, don't like art games? 19:43:09 Vorpal: Sure I do, but come on, look at their site: http://www.traumagame.com/ 19:43:12 cfj, see it not so much as a game as an experience 19:43:17 It looks like a site for a pretentious novel. 19:43:18 cfj, interesting 19:43:20 Vorpal: also did you really just say that. 19:43:24 cfj: Says one commentator: "Trauma is an overpriced collection of panoramic photos with grossly shallow gameplay, wedged into a pretentious shell of a story." 19:43:27 cfj, no I didn't 19:43:35 cfj, the irc client is lying to you 19:43:44 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Quit: leaving). 19:43:45 Vorpal: Good because I would have to drive to Birmingham, wrestle control of ais' IRC client from him, and ban you. 19:43:51 fizzie: http://www.traumagame.com/pics/screenshot02.jpg. Art. 19:44:05 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 19:44:05 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Changing host). 19:44:06 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 19:44:14 weweeeee 19:44:16 "Clicking on certain areas of each photo shifts the perspective, while drawing symbols learned from collectable Polaroids allows the player to examine or manipulate objects. The imagery is often striking: a building bends and collapses as if made of thin rubber; a wall is sucked into an imaginary plughole; a blurry figure suddenly shatters into tiny fragments." 19:44:17 Art. 19:44:27 Ah yes, Polaroids. 19:44:27 cfj, anyway, I suggest you play that weird PS3 game that came out recently (or was it demoed? I don't remember). Journey I think it was called. 19:44:30 The defining mark of art. 19:44:31 looked VERY much like art 19:44:54 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journey_(2012_video_game)? Looks like it's coming out next year. 19:45:09 "In Journey, the player takes the role of a robed figure in a desert. The game features no map or instructions, only a large mountain in the distance that the player journeys toward.[2] While traveling the player can encounter other players, one at a time, if they are playing online. Players cannot speak to each other, but can help each other in their journey or not as they wish.[3] Players met online will 19:45:09 not be identified with a username and voice or text communication will not be possible with the other player." 19:45:10 cfj, guess I saw it demoed at a video from E3 then 19:45:12 This... is a game? 19:45:28 There is literally no gameplay, it's like Second Life but without social interaction or customisation. So it's like... Zeroth Life. 19:45:43 "Hidden areas will contain tapestries and other clues as to the events leading up to the game, the story of which has not yet been announced." 19:45:48 I sure hope they just forgot to mention the gameplay part. 19:45:54 cfj, it looks interesting, TbH. 19:46:05 The gameplay: take one foot, put it in front of the other. 19:46:14 cfj, I'm not sure. Let me link to a quite humorous video review of the preview of it (not yogscast, but next best thing) 19:46:16 Prince_Charles: Sure, but I'll wait for the reviews to come in before buying it. And also buying a playstation three I guess. :p 19:46:34 cfj, I think it's basically a puzzle platformer with a lot of walking. 19:46:40 cfj, Prince_Charles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFvbrk6UA84 19:46:41 "The only way players can communicate audibly with each other is with a wordless shout." Right. 19:46:44 Wolfram Launches Computable Document Format (CDF): Bring Documents to Life with the Power of Computation 19:46:45 oh no 19:46:52 fizzie: Morse. 19:46:52 Oh jesus 19:47:01 What, you can go and be all "AAAAAAA!" to others, but that's it? 19:47:09 fizzie, just watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFvbrk6UA84 19:47:10 cfj: it sounds like those early 90s games where just being able to walk in 2.5D was amazing 19:47:14 it will explain nothing 19:47:27 -!- cfj has changed nick to elliott. 19:47:31 Think I'm done with that nick. 19:47:31 well maybe a bit. Quite a nice art style to the game. 19:47:37 Vorpal: Can I watch it without sounds? 19:47:46 fizzie: You'll miss the aaaas. 19:47:50 fizzie, no 19:47:52 Oh yes, it has the transcribe-audio button. 19:47:54 fizzie, it is commented 19:47:56 fizzie: Oh dear. 19:48:02 fizzie, no idea how well that will work 19:48:08 Vorpal: Terribly. 19:48:10 elliott, ah 19:48:11 Certainly it will work well: it always does. 19:48:12 It's a comic relief button. 19:48:18 ... 19:48:22 elliott, right 19:48:30 "cattle are still listed here here i cannot expertise thousand uh... eleven" 19:48:30 Vorpal: Ooh that jump was nice. 19:48:32 Good start. 19:48:44 fizzie, definitely NOT the right thing 19:48:56 -!- Ngevd has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:48:57 OMG you rae made of cloth. 19:48:57 dude you guys 19:48:58 That is the best. 19:49:05 Prince_Charles: I am sorry but I am cloth now. 19:49:06 what if there were a Harvest Moon MMO 19:49:16 and you could SIMULATE FARMING IN A SMALL TOWN with peopel. 19:49:28 elliott, it was mentioned in the SA Homestuck thread as basically being WV: The Game. 19:49:37 Vorpal: "flower uh... got rave reviews a vote seville truck figure out what exactly it" 19:49:40 Prince_Charles, hahah 19:49:43 Prince_Charles: WV isn't: made of cloth. 19:49:55 fizzie, flower was another game mentioned, that is about it 19:49:55 elliott, HOW DO WE KNOW 19:50:03 Prince_Charles: CARAPACES ARE NOT CLOTH 19:50:06 THEY ARE HARD AND BLACK 19:50:16 Vorpal: "still it's a flower in the sense that it's more experienced the nanny" 19:50:21 fizzie, no 19:50:22 just no 19:50:24 `addquote Vorpal: "still it's a flower in the sense that it's more experienced the nanny" 19:50:29 690) Vorpal: "still it's a flower in the sense that it's more experienced the nanny" 19:50:31 -!- itidus20 has joined. 19:50:46 Journey seem slike it'll be pretty atmospheric, with some not-bad puzzles. 19:50:53 elliott, WHAT IF IT'S JUST REALLY HARD CLOTH 19:50:58 I do like the idea of, like, a single-player game that just happens to be MMO'd up. 19:51:07 elliott: see: demon's souls 19:51:07 It's like the Network Headache of game concepts. 19:51:14 elliott: sort of 19:51:16 CakeProphet: Sorry no Network Headache is DEFINITELY the better prior art here. 19:51:21 Vorpal: "talk to somebody father usage roaring in the south" 19:51:32 elliott: demon's souls is the best though. 19:51:52 fizzie, dude watch it later with sound on 19:51:53 best console game anyways. 19:52:45 Based on the video there's in fact some gameplay too. 19:53:34 what makes demon's souls different from most games is that it's actually /difficult/ 19:54:01 Prince_Charles: Where do they put on the Mayoral Sash. 19:54:06 CakeProphet, hm there are other difficult games. Plenty of them. 19:54:14 elliott, that's what the scarf is. 19:54:16 Vorpal: yes that's true. 19:54:33 CakeProphet: Dwarf Fortress, Nethack, ARMA, Red Orchestra to mention a few 19:54:44 Vorpal: plenty is not most though. LEARN 2 AMBIGUOUS QUANTIFIER 19:54:48 Vorpal, dude, DF is not all that hard. 19:54:52 Even without danger rooms. 19:55:04 Prince_Charles, hm true. nethack is however hard 19:55:11 CakeProphet: my old chat friend liked a 2d side scroller game i made once cos frankly it was insanely difficult 19:55:19 I've heard reports of nethack being easy 19:55:25 can't trust anyone!! 19:55:27 demon's souls pretty much absolutely rapes you when you fail. 19:55:53 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:56:12 CakeProphet: imagine like, double dragon, except where an individual enemy has several minutes worth of hitpoints 19:56:15 but allows you to make up for it. basically you lose all of the xp you haven't used when you die, and you can get back by reaching the place where you died. 19:56:22 but if you die again then you lose all of those points. 19:56:25 monqy, I think it's easy if you're good at it. 19:56:25 Vorpal: Final conclusions: "steria mileage may vary severely got to be extremely treat by audit" 19:56:42 well this comment im making doesn't paint a good picture.. there werent that many enemies in it 19:56:49 Prince_Charles: this is kind of like how Magicka is an easy game 19:56:53 but then people say it's really difficult 19:56:57 this is because they're bad at it. 19:57:00 fizzie, .... no 19:57:11 Prince_Charles: NetHack is more annoying than difficult, though I'm totally biased as I'm terrible at it. 19:57:12 fizzie, dude watch the video with sound 19:57:25 Vorpal: Naaaah, the captions were good enough. 19:57:25 Prince_Charles: Ask ais about how Crawl is even moreso. :p 19:57:43 elliott, is this continued bitterness over your lost save. 19:57:44 fizzie, ... totally inaccurate however 19:57:46 dude what if 19:57:48 Prince_Charles: Definitely. 19:57:49 Magicka df combo 19:57:53 Aw, Journey has a separate single player mode? :/ 19:57:59 -!- kwertii has joined. 19:58:04 It should just always have every other player there and you can't do anything about it. 19:58:23 CakeProphet, Toady did say that he didn't want D&D style cheap magic. 19:58:30 Prince_Charles, most games are easy when you are good at them... In fact most things in life are. 19:58:39 you build a fortress while also fending off huge waves of enemies by combining elements to form spells. 19:58:49 Prince_Charles: yes I agree that would be bad. 19:58:52 my old 2d game is named either runch or turbo fight.... and its hard 19:59:03 CakeProphet, ouch 19:59:06 `addquote my old 2d game is named either runch or turbo fight.... and its hard 19:59:08 691) my old 2d game is named either runch or turbo fight.... and its hard 19:59:14 CakeProphet, he has said that if he implements it it'll basically only be an artefact status modifier or something similar. 19:59:22 i have a video of a scene or 2 of it 19:59:46 Vorpal: I like the idea of having an element system where the environment carries elements, and then to use magic you have to harness elements from your environment or something. 19:59:54 not necessarily in df just generally 19:59:58 heh 19:59:58 some complex generated world. 20:00:03 this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qp3tRxe59sQ 20:00:18 itidus20: this is beautiful. 20:00:25 CakeProphet, btw worst game idea ever: Grand Theft Auto Augmented Reality Edition. 20:00:29 Prince_Charles: Dude watch that. 20:00:34 Vorpal: Um what that is the best idea I have ever heard. 20:00:41 elliott, XD 20:00:50 I'm not kidding that would literally be the most fun. 20:00:50 oh my god 20:01:03 duuude fighting on trains 20:01:06 i wish i had the motivation and inspiration now that i had when i made that game (and video) 20:01:21 elliott, it would be terminally dangerous 20:01:31 Vorpal: OK by AR I basically interpreted you as meaning VR. 20:01:37 elliott, no I meant AR 20:01:46 elliott: why does watching this remind me of SBAHJ 20:01:52 elliott, VR is actually a good idea 20:01:54 AR is... not 20:01:57 Vorpal: sorry I am too distracted by the awesomeness of VR Grand Theft Auto. 20:02:15 elliott, is grand theft auto IV worth playing? 20:02:20 Dunno. 20:02:23 Vorpal: it's not bad. 20:02:34 gets old quickly unless I guess you actually do the story stuff 20:02:35 I tend to just watch people play GTA games in lieu of actually playing them. 20:02:36 but I never did tha. 20:02:38 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyhCuTUvUJw&feature=channel_video_title 20:02:40 itidus20, is this you 20:02:53 oh crap >.< (checks) 20:03:04 i should have thought about this 20:03:34 elliott, heh 20:03:48 itidus20, no you are better than SgeoN1 by far. 20:03:55 CakeProphet, don't you have to do a few story missions first at least? 20:03:56 hmm 20:04:03 i was in a strange mood when i made that video 20:04:03 Vorpal: not with cheat codes. 20:04:07 Vorpal: well, maybe. 20:04:11 I dunno I don't own it. 20:04:13 my hair is longer now :D 20:04:37 CakeProphet, and when did not owning games ever stop players playing them... 20:05:01 Vorpal: playing from the beginning to figure out whether or not you need story missions before you can just mindlessly drive around with cheat codes and kill everything etc 20:05:03 elliott, anyway GTA AR, is it bad? (As opposed to GTA VR which would be awesome) 20:05:03 itidus20, I can say with certainty that you look far more dignified than SgeoN1 as well. 20:05:26 in hindsight i didnt sound nearly as loud as i hoped with that video 20:05:29 CakeProphet, as far as I understood you need to complete at least two missions to be able to use cheat codes 20:05:33 * CakeProphet is the most digitalnitary. 20:05:46 since you use your in game phone to enter them and get that at the end of mission 2. 20:05:51 ah 20:06:31 Vorpal: do you own a PS3? 20:06:34 or emulator or some weirdness. 20:06:37 CakeProphet, it was released for PC 20:06:40 as well 20:06:49 CakeProphet, but no I don't own a PS3 20:06:55 I do own a very awesome PC though 20:06:56 Vorpal: well no I was going to suggest playing demon's souls which I think is ps3 exclusive. 20:07:03 in fact I think it came with some models? 20:07:10 CakeProphet, I don't own any console in fact 20:07:44 I should probably get a console one of these days since I doubt the Linux gaming scene is going to be overly huge any time soon. 20:08:10 elliott, dual booting is easy enough 20:08:20 use an old disk for windows 20:08:22 elliott: yes play Magicka on Windows. 20:08:32 Vorpal: Yes, but then I have to deal with Windows, and hardware incompatibilities. 20:08:33 Also there seems to be a new bundle out every day nowadays! 20:08:34 * CakeProphet got Windows 7 for free from his school. 20:08:45 Consoles nicely sidestep those. 20:08:54 And also come with a better controller. :p 20:08:57 elliott, if you have a proper PC instead of a flimsy laptop thingy you could just insert another SATA disk and install windows on that 20:09:02 elliott: 1) get ps3 b) play demon's souls 20:09:07 Vorpal: FSVO flimsy 20:09:23 iii.) profit 20:09:23 I'd like to see you break a single moulded piece of aluminium 20:09:31 elliott, fair enough 20:09:36 elliott, cramped laptop 20:09:36 CakeProphet: But PS3s are ugly. 20:09:39 you can't argue with that 20:09:50 elliott: this is what I think about most when I'm playing video games. 20:09:53 Compare PS2s, which are wonderful and flat and rectangular. 20:09:59 "wow that computer box is an eyesore" 20:10:05 CakeProphet: Dude the PS3 has like the ugliest curve I have ever seen. 20:10:13 my slim ps2 has an official vertical stand 20:10:23 elliott, I have space for like 7 x 3.5" disks in my desktop. + 4 x 5.whatever" 20:10:33 elliott: okay find get exbawks and supprot vondoes 20:10:53 oh wait, 8 3.5", one of them has front side access (floppy, card reader or whatever) 20:10:57 Hmm, it looks like they made the PS3 less ugly. 20:11:03 The PS3 controller (DualShock 3) plugs into a regular computer just fine, then you get a real controller. (All the other drawbacks still apply.) 20:11:06 elliott, the last version can't run linux iirc 20:11:07 Can we stop for a moment to admire the DualShock controllers again? They are like the best controllers. 20:11:10 elliott: man i can't tell you how rare those vertical ps2 stands are in the stores 20:11:13 Vorpal: A thing which I care about to no end. 20:11:20 elliott, :/ 20:11:45 Vorpal: I'm not inclined to give Sony money because of their practices, but I don't really care about running a low-spec pointless unsupported buggy Linux machine. 20:11:45 a ps2linux is fine. 20:11:46 I'd like to see you break a single moulded piece of aluminium 20:11:52 Aluminium isn't too strong? 20:11:54 elliott, I prefer the original xbox controllers. Because of their nice size. They were kind of nice to hold compared to the small controllers of most other consoles 20:11:55 Prince_Charles: With your bare hands. 20:12:04 Prince_Charles: Or, say, OK, you can have a four storey drop. 20:12:10 That should be enough to destroy most laptops easily. 20:12:12 honestly I like xbox 360 controllers the best. 20:12:19 but ps2/ps3 is fine. 20:12:21 CakeProphet: But PS3s are ugly. 20:12:31 But they have such a progressive attitude towards DRM! 20:12:45 I think playstation1 was the ultimate console, at least by the time I owned one they actually worked without breaking down 20:12:53 PlayStation or psone 20:13:03 The PS One is the weirdest thing. 20:13:23 it has some of the best games ever made 20:13:24 I prefer the N64 controller, it's the only one that has place for my third hand. 20:13:31 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Souls now this thing is out which is like a kind of sequel to demon's souls 20:13:34 I bet it's awesome. 20:13:39 er will be out soon 20:13:39 `addquote I prefer the N64 controller, it's the only one that has place for my third hand. 20:13:41 692) I prefer the N64 controller, it's the only one that has place for my third hand. 20:13:55 I suppose I might buy one of them Xboxes. 20:13:56 Xboxen,. 20:14:01 s/,././ 20:14:03 no ps3 play demon's souls 20:14:07 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/17/Xbox_360_S.png 20:14:08 xbox 360 is for chumps. 20:14:12 What compelled them to pre-crumple the front? 20:14:12 the ps1/n64/saturn era was basically the renaissance of gaming.... 20:14:13 Like 20:14:18 Do they hire someone to punch a dent in the new Xboxen 20:14:22 Before sending them ou to stores 20:14:23 that was the best time to be a gamer, im glad i was a part of it 20:14:25 out 20:14:27 Is that their design strategy 20:14:33 Prince_Charles tell me that doesn't look like someone punched it hard 20:14:33 elliott, so that they'd be more resistant to kicks when they broke. 20:14:51 OK I cannot buy a console that ugly I am sorry it just is beyond me. 20:14:57 They're pre-kicked so all the kickedness is used up. 20:14:58 What's the best non-crumpled console. 20:15:01 Prince_Charles: X-D 20:15:05 CakeProphet: fighting on trains is either a reference to final fantasy 6 or drunken master 2 20:15:13 elliott: maybe the design helps with overheating which was a problem with earlier cases. 20:15:18 itidus20: Two of the greatest games of all time. 20:15:25 CakeProphet: Making things more cramped cools them? 20:15:33 Seventh generation video game consoles 20:15:33 PlayStation 3 · Wii · Xbox 360 · Zeebo 20:15:35 urmm.. the second was technically a non-interactive kung fu film 20:15:35 the bottom looks wider to me than the original. 20:15:36 What the FUCK is a Zeebo? 20:15:49 elliott: ohh... video time o.o 20:15:58 elliott, hey, a dent increases the surface area to volume ratio. 20:15:59 elliott, yes, less space for the heat to build up in obviously 20:16:04 also notice the huge vent 20:16:06 OK a Zeebo looks like something which causes drama in the revision history to [[Template:Seventh generation game consoles]]. 20:16:14 that is not present on other models. 20:16:44 Zeebo sucks cock, does it real mexican. Zeebo will not work with our advanced internets why don't we just leave them in south amelica whele they berong!!! 20:16:44 DOWN WITH ZEEBO! DOWN WITH ZEEBO! DOWN WITH ZEEBO! Mr. Briney: ROAAAAARRR ZEEBO! Okay, srsly, ffs, keep the gd zeebo off 7th gen console list thingy. That is all. (A) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.24.202.197 (talk) 05:51, 1 July 2009 (UTC) 20:17:02 Convincing arguments: 20:17:02 [[ 20:17:02 It really doesn't matter. It's staying off the template. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.28.152.244 (talk) 06:02, 7 July 2009 (UTC) 20:17:02 And with that kind of talk and continued vandalism warnings, you will wind up with your IP banned. --Marty Goldberg (talk) 18:46, 7 July 2009 (UTC) 20:17:02 I.. really don't care, sorry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.28.152.244 (talk) 00:30, 8 July 2009 (UTC) 20:17:05 ]] 20:18:38 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMFngT6Ie2c -- this is the sort of shit i used to get inspiration from when making fighting games 20:19:22 maybe one day i will get inspired again 20:19:27 what is the fun in fighting games, they just seem so booooring 20:19:30 smash bros brawl = best fighting game 20:19:32 (no offence meant) 20:19:40 Vorpal: exactly... 20:19:44 fizzie: Can you use a PS2/3 controller with an Xbox 360? :p 20:19:50 no brawl is in no way boring. 20:20:09 is CakeProphet being serious i can';t tell 20:20:24 no I legitimately enjoy that game. 20:20:25 Vorpal: that video is fight scenes from one of my favorite films :D 20:20:38 elliott: I'm pretty sure USB HID devices don't normally work on the 360. 20:20:53 but the voices are dubbed strangely 20:20:55 Incidentally, I recently played a bit that free Trackmania version; was browsing the Steam store. It is very obnoxious: it's all "you must invite a buddy to unlock this track" "you must challenge a friend via file to unlock this track" "you must have a buddy in your buddy list to unlock this track" "you must talk to a friend about Trackmania to unlock this track". 20:20:56 (unlike the PS3) 20:20:59 pikhq: But the Xbox controller is so ugley. 20:21:03 itidus20, no sound atm. But it looks utterly silly 20:21:04 And uneeoergoengorengomic. 20:21:09 hahahha 20:21:13 It's discrimination against us friendless people is what it is. 20:21:32 elliott: xbox 360 controller is quite ergonomic though. 20:21:47 dragon ball manga was inspired by this movie too 20:21:55 CakeProphet: Dude, I am a member of the cult of DualShock superiority. 20:21:59 fizzie, is trackmania a good game though? It is about non-dirty racing isn't it? 20:22:10 elliott: no I agree it's a good controller as well 20:22:10 Hmm, Fez is coming to Xbox. 20:22:12 as in, no powerups or weapons or such 20:22:13 So that's a point in Xbox's favour. 20:22:23 elliott, Fez being=? 20:22:23 but the 360 control is quite comfy. 20:22:25 s/=// 20:22:34 Vorpal: http://gamevideos.1up.com/video/id/17594 20:22:36 That thing. 20:22:45 It's supposedly coming out next year, after being in development since like forever. 20:22:58 hm 20:22:58 But at least they actually have new gameplay footage out recently so I guess it's not entirely vapourware. 20:23:04 a painting is a physical object complete in and of itself 20:23:07 Vorpal: Stick with it for a few minutes before dismissing it 20:23:12 elliott, no flash 20:23:13 It takes a little while to reveal why it's interesting :P 20:23:18 Vorpal: Your loss 20:23:22 elliott, *shrug* 20:23:29 a painting consists of 2 components. the canvas and the paint 20:23:32 Vorpal: Well, yes, it's about non-dirty racing; but it's very cartoonish. Actually it reminds me of Stunts (except modernized) a little bit. (Not too much.) 20:23:53 Lots of loops and long jumps and that sort of things. 20:23:57 an arcade game is a physical object complete in and of itself. it consists of hardware and software. 20:23:57 fizzie, I saw a video of trackmania 2, looked quite photorealistic, even if the tracks didn't 20:24:11 had loops and such 20:24:27 oerjan, ping. 20:24:28 I don't really know about how the versions go; the current free one is "Trackmania Nations Forever" or something. 20:24:31 monqy: why is smash bros not awesome? 20:24:38 fizzie, I see 20:24:43 I tried it out back before they added the "Forever" into it. 20:24:43 monqy is stupid and wrong end of. 20:24:53 i think in the long run, the idea of games built specifically for a specific piece of hardware will become fashionable again 20:24:56 monqy never said it wasn't awesome did he 20:24:56 heh 20:25:03 he asked if I was joking 20:25:03 He'd better not have. 20:25:04 But they have a for-money Trackmania United, and something called Trackmania Canyon is advertised at the end of each session. 20:25:06 after I talked about it being awesome. 20:25:13 fizzie, the forever part is a track with an infinite loop 20:25:21 which sort of implies that he might not like it. 20:25:26 fizzie, I think I saw a video of Trackmania 2 Canyon? Hm. 20:25:29 like you will have master game developers who craft each game as an individual unit 20:25:40 CakeProphet, he might be one of those poor deluded souls who prefer Melee. 20:25:45 not as a product to be manufactured 20:26:04 Vorpal: Oh yes; it looks very much more realistic. 20:26:10 OK so 20:26:16 Can we all just concur 20:26:16 fizzie, newer game, not strange 20:26:17 Prince_Charles: melee was the shit back in the day, but... brawl feels more balanced to me, and the physics are awesome. 20:26:24 Vorpal: http://www.destructoid.com/elephant/ul/81863-trackmania-forever.jpg is what the old one looks like. 20:26:30 That either Brawl or Melee is the best. 20:26:31 fizzie: Please tell me you have been waiting impatiently for Fez for like a billion years too. 20:26:35 CakeProphet, oh yeah, I prefer Brawl. 20:26:37 Prince_Charles: GUESS WHAT I'VE NEVER PLAYED 20:26:38 fizzie, ah 20:26:42 Vorpal: It's all in this "stadium"-style environment. 20:26:51 fizzie, ah 20:27:03 fizzie, the canyon one is... wait for it... in a canyon! 20:27:12 http://www.tweetmmo.com/wp-content/gallery/trackmania-nations-forever/trackmania-5.jpg <- another very illustrative bit. 20:27:16 CakeProphet, for one thing, airdodging isn't as cruel. 20:27:20 Prince_Charles: my best character on brawl: Ness 20:27:24 elliott, buy brawl omg we can have a party. 20:27:28 Prince_Charles: yes airdodging is awesome this is why I'm good with NEss. 20:27:39 CakeProphet, I prefer Marth because come on swords. 20:27:41 Prince_Charles, don't you mean Mario Party? 20:28:06 Hmm, Steam wants to sell me Dungeon Siege 3 for 50% off. 20:28:14 fizzie, never heard of that game 20:28:15 Vorpal, haven't played that 20:28:22 -!- zzo38 has joined. 20:28:22 Prince_Charles, good for you 20:28:29 Prince_Charles: I'm just best with Ness. I have a lot of characters I enjoy playing 20:28:31 Vorpal: It's by SQUARE ENIX, but I think it's a bit more "action" than "RPG". 20:28:33 Marth isn't one of them though. 20:28:38 fizzie, oh. 20:28:49 All functors in Haskell are strong. Does this have anything doing with cartesian closed? 20:28:50 Prince_Charles: I'm pretty good with Ike actually. he's not a great character though. 20:28:54 CakeProphet, Marth is great because it's so easy. 20:28:54 fizzie, what is Square Enix doing? NOT doing RPGs? Wtf. 20:29:10 Vorpal: It's the third already; it's not a new thing. 20:29:13 All of his attacks consist of "swing sword at person adjacent". 20:29:14 fizzie, heh 20:29:15 Prince_Charles: he's pretty much the opposite of Ness. Ness = good in the air. Marth = good on the ground. 20:29:21 Vorpal: Based on images it looks like a glitzy Diablo. 20:29:27 CakeProphet, Marth is pretty good in the air, actually. 20:29:31 fizzie, oh god 20:29:43 fizzie, btw I love some of the Square Enix SNES games. Mario RPG for example. 20:29:45 His attacks are all short range but they're pretty damn good, particularly his down one. 20:29:58 (yes, Square Enix made that, not Nintendo) 20:30:00 I haven't actually played in ages, really. 20:30:09 Prince_Charles: as far as characters like Marth I kind of prefer Rob because he has ridiculous ground reach + projectile + air mobility 20:30:39 Prince_Charles: pong 20:30:48 Prince_Charles, don't you mean Mario Party? 20:30:51 Vorpal: Apparently of the sieges, III is the first one that's published by SQUARE ENIX, though. 20:30:52 Mario Party is like War: The Game. 20:30:57 oerjan, what the hell is the topology in Surface Madk screwed it up so badly I don't even. 20:31:01 elliott: dude what if there were online Risk 20:31:06 elliott: we could all play Risk. 20:31:11 fizzie, heh 20:31:15 CakeProphet, ROB is pretty cool, although that's a given. 20:31:18 CakeProphet: There is, on X-Bit, which is now defunct, however. 20:31:33 But it did have a Risk game (it was not called Risk though, but the rules are the same). 20:31:41 zzo38: same map 20:31:43 the map is important. 20:31:45 Vorpal: Seems that Obsidian wrote the game, and Square bought the franchise, or something like that. 20:31:47 Yes, same map. 20:31:48 er, that was a question. 20:32:21 fizzie, heh 20:32:22 Prince_Charles: for a while I played as Ganondorf because he's the worst character in tournament rankings. 20:32:37 It was a Synchronet BBS, so there might be other Synchronet BBSes with the same game, possibly. 20:32:38 and would beat experienced players with him. 20:32:48 CakeProphet, well yeah, but tournament rankings are completely orthogonal to mere mortal play. 20:33:01 right, that was the conclusion I was testing. 20:33:20 Consider that in Melee the tournament rankings were basically dictated by a couple of very tricky strategies. 20:33:31 not quite as much in Brawl but there are a few. 20:33:42 mainly involving stupid grab combos. 20:33:51 fizzie, hm or was Mario RPG a Square game? Prior to merger? 20:33:57 oh yes, it was 20:34:12 Prince_Charles: hm do i recall correctly that it's a square grid where on the north and south edges you switch to another column 20:34:15 ? 20:34:20 If I make a telnet service in my computer, it will also have accounts and I might allow users to add their own programs using a virtual machine. 20:34:30 fizzie, Chrono Trigger, Secret of Mana, the good final fantasy. Square was awesome 20:34:37 I usually deal with people who grab a lot by jumping around a lot. In fact, hopping is my primary means of transportation when I'm playing Ness. I hop everywhere. 20:34:52 oerjan, east and west wrap the obvious way, but north and south wrap to themselves in a way which is probably best just to look up. 20:35:04 Vorpal: I played Legend of the Seven Stars a very small bit. 20:35:06 ff4 was good.. the trouble was that i never would have figured that game out without the strategy guide 20:35:08 CakeProphet, grabs are just these things that are there to me. 20:35:24 fizzie, ah 20:35:37 ^style ct 20:35:37 Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script) 20:35:39 Prince_Charles: we have interwiki. 20:35:41 fungot, Square 20:35:42 Vorpal: you! take! we find! hey! is that for us! the chef's in a snit, trying to get food to the front lines. heard a spell to energize the sword takes immense evil! indeed! this thing. what you have? transform! this trading house. it's the kind! i've decided to stay with these humans! you're a traitor! you're not our king! but, we are far outnumbered! 20:35:59 What's wrong with how I look? 20:36:02 Vorpal: i got to the final battle in secret of mana (i think) and lost miserably 20:36:08 Prince_Charles: er, just there? 20:36:09 that was basically that 20:36:16 itidus20, it wasn't that hard once you knew what you were doing 20:36:24 itidus20, anyway just reload the last save 20:36:25 Prince_Charles: also, you violated strong wiki policy. 20:36:25 its a dragon right? 20:36:29 elliott, hm? 20:36:35 Prince_Charles: Hm to which part? 20:36:40 itidus20, no, a Mana Beast. But yes looks like a dragon kind of 20:36:42 Strong wiki policy. 20:36:53 vorpal.. ahahah.. the rental store i rented that game from is now out of business 20:37:06 no.. reloading last save is well beyond the realms of possibility 20:37:09 Prince_Charles: You must not hide the "User:" from user page links. 20:37:09 heh 20:37:16 elliott, how strange. 20:37:17 * elliott fixes. 20:37:45 i do have zsnes and a secret of mana rom though 20:37:50 Prince_Charles: I do think the tournament rankings reflect fairly accurate on the inherent imbalance in characters. Maybe not the exact a numerical ordering, but the "tiers" are pretty accurate. 20:37:53 itidus20, keep the girl buffing the hero's sword (and healing and so on) and have him hit the beast, and have the spirit cast offensive spells. You need a few of those faire nuts that resupply your mana 20:37:55 43 - 0 = 20:37:57 Prince_Charles: The best spam protection. 20:38:04 fairy nuts* 20:38:10 itidus20, forgot what buffs were best 20:38:14 Prince_Charles: Ganondorf is probably defininitely the worst character to play as. 20:38:14 Vorpal: and i played it with my brother... we enjoyed it 20:38:22 itidus20, hm 20:38:29 CakeProphet, I like the way he has a sword and never uses it. 20:38:42 3 would be nice.. but i doubt many people can actually gather 3 people around a game for that long 20:38:48 (Swords are the key to victory, this is a true fact.) 20:39:00 my strategy with Ganondorf is to rely on a well-timed warlock bunch or up-tilt... 20:39:12 and in the interim try to not die, with offensive focused on tilts. 20:39:17 He who lives by the sword, dies by the gun. 20:39:30 s/bunch/punch/ 20:39:35 zzo38, assuming someone else said that first. 20:39:55 Vorpal: yeah it was good bonding time 20:39:56 Prince_Charles: Maybe someone did. I don't know. 20:40:04 itidus20, mhm 20:40:12 But probably someone did. 20:40:13 Prince_Charles: He who lives by the pointy stick, dies by the pointy stick. 20:40:19 The moral is pointy sticks hurt. 20:40:33 *pointéd 20:40:50 lol, BerliOS is shutting down 20:41:36 Lol-worthy? 20:41:42 ISTR that Oolite was hosted on BerliOS. 20:41:54 Deewiant: A bunch of 'em seem to be shutting down lately 20:41:59 What was it last time, SunSITE? 20:42:07 Prince_Charles: I wonder what they were thinking when they designed Meta Knight. 20:42:09 Something like hat 20:42:10 that 20:42:21 CakeProphet, they were thinking about what Kirby would be like if AWESOME. 20:43:01 Prince_Charles: Excuse me Kirby is the most awesome. 20:43:45 I made the change one byte of ROM data of Kirby Dreamland 1 for GameBoy in order to correct the scoring (it works regardless of extra mode and configuration mode), because the normal scoring is really badly designed. 20:44:03 elliott, sorry but Meta Knight is awesomer still. 20:44:12 Prince_Charles: OK no they are in positions of equal awesomeness. 20:44:31 Prince_Charles: many of his attacks have literally milliseconds of lag. 20:44:32 Prince_Charles: He is trying way too hard OK. 20:44:33 But which is awesomer in terms of scoring? Possibly not. 20:44:47 CakeProphet, yes, I know. 20:44:55 Prince_Charles: and he has a sword 20:44:58 so obviously he wins. 20:44:58 His downtilt is just insane. 20:45:13 OK stop it you guys are oppressing people like me with no friends. 20:45:26 elliott, Brawl has online play. 20:45:40 Do you believe the scoring is too bad the normal way of that game? 20:45:42 Prince_Charles: I DON'T HAVE FRIENDSHIP INTERNET 20:45:44 ...but it's laggy and terrible. 20:45:48 don't play it online 20:45:50 play it with friends. 20:45:57 Yeah I can't imagine it'd work well online but OK LOOK THAT INVOLVES ME HAVING FRIENDS 20:45:58 I corrected it by changing an instruction from DEC to AND 20:46:00 Wait I will kidnap Prince_Charles. 20:46:01 OK OK Brawl party in Hexham y/n 20:46:04 And force him to play SSB with me. 20:46:17 No second B? 20:46:36 Prince_Charles: IM NOT CLEVER OK 20:46:41 As far as Brawl players go, you'll find I'm simply the best there is. 20:46:42 HOW MANY BS ARE EVEN ??// 20:47:26 the main issue with Brawl online is that Wii networking tends to suck for some reason. 20:47:31 CakeProphet, yes, this is why you aren't invited. 20:47:48 When I was playing the game, all player decide random character for each individual game and play time mode. 20:47:55 time mode is lame. 20:47:56 Three minutes. 20:48:06 5 stock is the best. 20:50:03 When I played Mario Party game, I always used my own scoring rule instead of the one built-in. The money is your base score (fu), and each star doubles (han). 20:52:50 My opinion is that many people do not know a lot of things about game design which is why I wrote an article about it in my gopher; and then people can agree/disagree/complain. 20:53:16 If only anyone used gopher. 20:53:55 It is possible to view on HTTP too, but some features are omitted on the HTTP version, such as the ability to send comments. 20:53:59 * CakeProphet feels he would be a fairly good game designer. 20:54:05 afterall I did invent portal chess. :> 20:54:16 CakeProphet: Then please make up some game. 20:54:25 You can invent chess game. Can you invent card game? 20:54:37 well, not really a fan of those. 20:54:45 I could make a bitchin' text-based game. :) 20:54:52 bitchin eh 20:55:00 monqy: yeah dawg 20:55:03 OK please make up some text-based game 20:55:30 IS PORTAL CHESS (MY MAGNUM OPUS) NOT ENOUGH? 20:55:59 can't I just make the best chess variant and then retire? 20:56:20 You can if you want to, but I think you can invented other thing too if you can 20:57:29 Gregor: Why do people like Trac. 20:58:57 elliott: why do people like Java? 20:59:02 they exist. 20:59:32 "java is good" gets more hits than "java is bad" QED 20:59:54 Things that make programming in Java a joy as compared to C++: 20:59:55 1. Inner classes and anonymous classes are cool. C++ doesn't have them, and that sucks big time. (Actually, I'd prefer anonymous functions, as most of the things I write in-place are implementations of one-function interfaces like Runnable.) 21:00:03 best argument. 21:01:05 Here are the things that make me curse Java designers on a daily basis: 21:01:07 1. No support for types with value semantics. I frequently use iterators in my designs. And when I send an iterator into a function, I want to send a copy, not the iterator that I still own and want to use. 21:01:13 this person is bad. 21:01:17 I don't like them. 21:03:09 value semantics 21:03:10 is it qwe 21:03:18 qwe? 21:03:24 qwe 21:03:38 I like how monqy hasn't talked since asking CakeProphet if he was joking. 21:03:38 I don't know what that is. 21:03:58 hi 21:04:04 i've been looking someplace else 21:04:09 monqy: ar eyou anti-smasehte brhrothieorngs 21:04:18 i'm not a fighting games fan 21:04:26 more like 21:04:29 gighgting fames gan 21:04:34 sure 21:04:39 SSB: the least fighting game like fighting game. 21:04:56 also the best fighting game. 21:04:58 Prince_Charles: cutting and rearrangement suggests Surface topology is a Klein bottle. 21:05:07 oerjan: omg.... 21:05:13 Right. 21:05:15 The fighting game I prefer is the card game Yomi 21:05:18 beautiful... 21:05:21 `addquote The fighting game I prefer is the card game Yomi 21:05:23 693) The fighting game I prefer is the card game Yomi 21:06:27 Given an infinitely large memory and instruction sphere, Surface is [[Turing-complete]] because it is possible to reproduce any [[brainfuck]] code. 21:06:30 infini 21:06:34 Pfffffffffffffffffffffffffft 21:06:35 tely large 21:06:37 klein bottle 21:06:49 Prince_Charles: In fairness infinite spheres are like the best. 21:06:58 Is it even possible to be Turing complete without infinite memory? 21:07:01 I like the way that he explicitly states mapping conditions 21:07:07 and then allows for it to be infinite 21:07:11 er, *wrapping 21:07:16 Prince_Charles: To be fair, so does Funge. 21:07:53 I am trying to think of how to emulate a Turing machine without infinite memory and....... 21:07:59 nope. 21:08:02 whats memory 21:08:06 CakeProphet: dude. 21:08:22 udueddd 21:08:48 wtf the lagginess of this game. (GTA IV). It stutters BADLY. And I have high end hardware. Wtf 21:09:01 I'm guessing you either have a really long explanation or you're just shocked and can't type. 21:09:08 or you're searching for something. 21:09:38 CakeProphet: *unbounded memory 21:09:53 can you clarify the difference? 21:10:05 I am trying to think of how to emulate a Turing machine without infinite memory and....... 21:10:13 Define 'infinite memory'. 21:10:15 a TM never used infinite memory at any given step 21:10:20 *uses 21:10:29 Yomi card is played each player has a deck of fifty-six cards, two of which are removed before the game starts (one of the removed cards is a rule quick reference card, the other specifies starting HP and global effects). 21:10:33 There need to be an infinite number of possible states of the entire system for it to be TC. 21:10:37 still the memory it has available to it is unbounded... which is pretty much infinite right? 21:10:48 There are ten decks to choose from. 21:11:04 CakeProphet: it doesn't need to be allocated up front though, which sometimes matters. 21:11:43 either way I'm thinking of the same thing I just used a different possibly less accurate word. I don't think it's possible to be equivalent to unbounded memory in bounded memory. 21:11:48 whats 21:11:49 memory 21:11:52 oerjan: ah yes I suppose so. 21:12:02 monqy: can't remember. 21:12:12 Prince_Charles is ignore me because 21:12:12 It is possible in bounded memory of the memory cell values are unbounded. 21:12:13 he is 21:12:14 evil 21:12:38 zzo38: ah yes. 21:12:49 but that just seems like a different kind of unbounded memory, perhaps. 21:13:06 hmmm, so then... 21:13:07 I think Prince_Charles is same as Phantom_Hoover because they even have same username and same host cloak 21:13:15 Oh thanks for the info 21:13:23 I could emulate brainfuck with three bignum cells, or something? 21:13:28 zzo38, genius detective. 21:14:19 CakeProphet: bounded memory means, with the usual intuition, that your machine can only pass through a finite number of states, which means its halting problem can always be decided by another machine. 21:14:34 For his next trick, he will find Lord Lucan and show that he was responsible for the Mary Celeste. 21:14:52 CakeProphet: Probably you can; you could have the boolean cells, you divide one in half and double the other adding the remainder of the other division 21:15:09 oerjan: couldn't I grow memory infinitely though? or am I misunderstanding "states" 21:15:46 er 21:15:49 nevermind 21:15:57 misread bounded as unbounded. :P 21:16:20 zzo38: ah that's neat. 21:17:17 oerjan: how does a machine go about deciding the halting problem for a bounded memory machine? 21:18:32 also doesn't that imply that all real world machines have a decidable halting problem, since all real world machines have bounded memory? 21:19:30 I think you can check by checking duplicate states 21:19:38 Since there is a finite number of states 21:19:52 So it require more memory than you have, to be able to do so. 21:20:10 ah okay. 21:20:22 that makes perfect sense.. 21:20:54 CakeProphet: yes. just emulate it for one more than the maximal number of steps, it must either repeat a state or halt. 21:21:23 for real world machines this can still take eons of time. 21:21:26 assuming that the machine can't statelessly insert a truly random bit of information in its memory 21:22:14 CakeProphet: randomness only changes things by degrees, actually - your emulator can test _all_ possibilities. 21:22:32 ah 21:22:54 if one of the possibilities terminates then the probability would increase towards 1 over time... right? 21:22:57 er 21:22:59 yes. 21:23:25 assuming that the randomness is repeated... 21:23:43 er no nevermind. 21:23:58 CakeProphet: you can make all the probabilistic transitions into a large matrix and calculate its eigenvalue. it's the same as the proposed new scoring for bfjoust, really :P 21:24:06 FSVO new 21:24:16 well, or close to it. 21:24:38 "Given an infinitely large memory and instruction bottle" 21:24:39 :D 21:24:39 Prince_Charles: :D 21:24:40 but same matrix theory. 21:24:49 infinitely large memory and instrution bottle 21:26:17 monqy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_data_storage 21:26:55 *maximal eigenvalue and its eigenvector 21:27:36 hm some of the same rare complications as for bfjoust might happen. but they're all solvable with a little more trickiness. 21:27:53 CakeProphet: thanks 21:29:42 Phantom_Hoover: Can you get people to start calling you PH irl. <-- also, start wearing a cape. 21:31:37 Prince_Charles: :D 21:31:44 I was about to be like what but then I realised. 21:32:34 my name is unknown to anyone in the universe. <-- sure, mr. Adam Polite. 21:38:24 "We can't implement this scheme in LLVM. We resort to post processing the assembly it produces." <-- the Evil Mangler has moved on? 21:38:44 http://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/kwjks/assuming_that_highenergy_neutrinos_are/ 21:39:00 Jesus christ I want to punch this guy. 21:39:04 oerjan: it's now Haskell code apparently ;P 21:39:09 s/;P/:P/ 21:39:30 Prince_Charles: I downvoted him. :p 21:39:57 elliott, yes, good minion, soon we will control the past with neutrinos. 21:40:09 ONLY NGEVD CAN STOP ME NOW AND I FENCE BETTER THAN HIM 21:40:14 Prince_Charles: You're about to get upvoted a billion times, thanks to future magic. 21:40:34 Prince_Charles: Oh my god we must never build an FTL neutrino receiver because as soon as we do it'll open the floodgates to the future nagging us. 21:40:36 yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay 21:40:49 "Why haven't you come up with the obvious solution to global warming yet??? Haha, suckers!" 21:40:57 "Guys, you should really start working on jetpacks one of these days; you're running out of time." 21:41:11 We tell them to shut up, then they tell us that they're not going to shut up by turning the power up a billion times. 21:41:19 Eventually, someone shoots the neutrino reflector. 21:41:29 "Hey I think you should impeach Obama and elect Ron Paul --EVERYONE EVER FROM THE FUTURE [message sent by unauthorised account RonPaul'sCryonicallyRevivedZombieGhostSkeleton3012]" 21:43:06 Prince_Charles: assuming relativity still holds, breaking causality would require two neutrino producers, one of which is bundled with a detector, and which are moving at relativistic speed wrt each other. 21:43:41 oerjan, actually, I think you could do it with only one. 21:43:49 oerjan: Assuming relativity still holds WHILE IT'S BEING COMPLETELY VIOLATED :P 21:44:28 Use light for the outward leg, lulling causality into a false sense of security, then WHAM, neutrinos had hit you ten minutes ago. 21:44:39 s/you/it/ 21:44:47 Prince_Charles: no, i don't think so. with just one, there would be no way to cause something to move backwards in its reference frame. 21:45:24 It was based only on suspicion; I'll need to actually work it out. 21:45:32 and if there is any reference frame in which nothing goes backwards in time, causality isn't violated. 21:45:37 One moment please. 21:46:52 Prince_Charles: OK we need to know what you came up with, pls hurry up five seconds ago. 21:48:04 elliott: by "relativity still holds" i mean that all (sub-light) inertial reference frames still have equivalent physics 21:48:38 Dammit Alpha let me solve this. 21:48:43 this is still consistent with tachyons as long as you ignore causality 21:49:02 Aha. 21:49:09 * CakeProphet ignores causality on a daily basis. 21:49:47 OK so a Lorentz factor of 2 requires a velocity of .86c note to self. 21:50:20 I'm running this game from a god damn SSD yet I still get what seems to be loading lag spikes. WTH 21:50:37 Dammit I should be able to calculate time taken for overtaking. 21:50:58 Vorpal discovers that GTA IV has terrible lag. 21:51:23 CakeProphet, it is unplayably bad.... 21:51:38 CakeProphet, as in impossible to drive. You get a lag spike ever second or so 21:51:41 CakeProphet, wtf 21:51:49 CakeProphet, is there any world around? 21:52:04 Vorpal: You sure did buy GTA IV quickly in the like five seconds after CakeProphet told you it was good. 21:52:11 Oh duh, classical relative velocity 21:52:12 elliott, who said buy. 21:52:19 elliott, I'm trying it out before. 21:52:20 elliott: I never mentioned it was good. 21:52:26 Vorpal: This is an IRC channel full of legitimacy. 21:52:34 elliott, and well if it is like this: I'm going to uninstall it. Unplayable 21:52:36 just that it wasn;t bad. I think. 21:52:55 I have a Core i7 with a high end Radeon GPU, And I'm running from an SSD. How can I get this kind of performance... 21:53:27 you should really just play magicka because it's better. 21:54:20 CakeProphet, ... 21:54:48 OK yeah this doesn't violate causality dammit. 21:54:50 what's the piracy scene like for playstation vs xbox 21:54:50 CakeProphet, I want some driving that is in an RPG or sandbox and that isn't just pickup trucks (that rules out Dead Island) 21:54:55 ???? 21:55:08 so sad 21:55:11 GTA IV is not RPG-like as San Andres was. 21:55:19 Prince_Charles: OK what if 21:55:23 Prince_Charles: you made causality 21:55:25 out of 21:55:25 Dragon Quest Auto 21:55:27 sdlkg 21:55:39 MDude: Ahahaha. 21:55:44 elliott: what if you just ruled out time travel as unpossible 21:55:49 Pokemon Theft Auto. 21:55:49 tthenwhwwt? 21:55:58 adgjkngd 21:55:59 CakeProphet: Then how do you explain the neutrinos 21:56:02 GTA IV is not RPG-like as San Andres was. <-- RPG OR SANDBOX I said 21:56:07 elliott: differently :P 21:56:07 it is sandbox 21:56:14 CakeProphet: Are they going faster than light or not 21:56:19 I assume they are. 21:56:23 :t atanh 21:56:24 forall a. (Floating a) => a -> a 21:56:29 since we measured them as faster. 21:56:38 nice... 21:56:49 Prince_Charles: Did you ever manage to explain to CakeProphet why FTL → time travel. 21:57:01 > atanh (tanh (1/2) + tanh (1/2)) 21:57:02 1.617318958453862 21:57:08 oops 21:57:14 > tanh (atanh (1/2) + atanh (1/2)) 21:57:15 0.8 21:57:36 are you sure there's not another plausible explanation? Maybe time dilation is different when you're going FTL 21:57:42 > atanh (1.000025) 21:57:42 NaN 21:57:48 CakeProphet: That... 21:57:57 Prince_Charles: YOU GET TO TALK TO CAKEPROPHET SO LUCKY A+++ 21:58:01 CakeProphet, well, since I have the numbers handy. 21:58:15 CakeProphet: that does not matter. we are only looking at the time dilation wrt ordinary sublight frames 21:58:25 which are _observing_ the neutrinos 21:58:27 You're travelling at 0.86c relative to your friend, meaning that you see time moving half as fast for them. 21:59:19 > atanh (1.000025) :: Complex Double 21:59:20 5.6448972067895955 :+ (-1.5707963267948966) 21:59:36 eek 21:59:52 10 seconds in, you send a signal travelling at 2c to them, so they receive the signal after 7.6s from your perspective. 22:00:06 * oerjan smells branch selection problems 22:00:28 Since you see them moving half as fast, you will see their receiver flash after 7.6/2=3.8s. 22:00:48 Prince_Charles: I'm unconvinced CakeProphet is paying attention. 22:00:54 I don't even care. 22:01:00 totally am. 22:01:18 Their receiver therefore flashes 8.8s into their flight. 22:01:50 basically I'm not making a concrete argument of any kind, other than that since we've measured something that seems to contradict our theories and possibly violates causality. 22:01:58 maybe this is an indication that something is in need of revision? 22:02:17 -!- DH____ has joined. 22:02:35 They repeat this, and as the system is symmetric between you and them, they see the exact same effect: your receiver flashes earlier into your trip than they were when they fired it. 22:02:59 You therefore receive the reply to a signal sent 10s in less than 8.8s in. 22:03:00 > tanh (atanh (1.000025) + atanh (1/2)) :: Complex Double 22:03:01 1.0000083332638894 :+ (-1.0205347470509298e-21) 22:03:09 I assume you see the paradox here. 22:03:10 hm seems to work 22:03:17 Prince_Charles: so what if time dilation starts going backards once you go FTL. :> 22:03:26 yes I see it. 22:03:59 I think it's because Lorentz transforms allow spacelike geodesics to move forwards or back in time with impunity for different observers, which screws things up, by my knowledge of relativity is far less solid than I'd like. 22:04:04 CakeProphet, doesn't matter. 22:04:36 All that matters is that a signal fired in your reference frame can effect a change at a velocity greater than c. 22:05:30 Prince_Charles: sounds right to me 22:06:40 OK r/AskScience idiot doesn't seem to realise that I was asking how causality violations could be empirically detected and has been acting snottily to me because he thinks he can show me up as a fool. 22:07:42 it occurs to me that the tanh / atanh method does not tell whether the time direction has been reversed 22:08:08 Stop flaunting the fact that you get to know more relativity than me I am very bitter. 22:08:23 Prince_Charles: I'll probably flamewar with him if he keeps talking because I like flamewars. 22:08:34 * CakeProphet is the best at flamewars. 22:08:41 oerjan, I'm the biggest fan of hyperbolic geometry ever! 22:09:04 elliott, godspeed. 22:09:37 I've got your back friend. 22:17:27 oh hm... 22:17:52 -!- Behold has joined. 22:18:38 -!- DH____ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:18:41 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 22:18:43 > tanh (atanh (1.000025) + atanh (-1.000025)) :: Complex Double 22:18:44 (-1.0338396805309458e-12) :+ 0.0 22:18:51 > tanh (atanh (1.000025) - atanh (-1.000025)) :: Complex Double 22:18:51 0.9999999996875079 :+ 7.653854787386644e-26 22:20:00 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:20:05 > tanh (atanh (1.000025) + atanh (-0.9999999997)) :: Complex Double 22:20:06 (-1.0000240005899963) :+ (-2.9392598432279782e-21) 22:21:20 Vorpal: fizzie: Oi, I need zlib help. 22:21:21 Prince_Charles: my guess is that 0.9999999997 c is then the approximate speed needed for a neutrino producer that sends a neutrino backwards in time at 1.000024 c 22:21:47 I really like the idea that we have to throw away relativity just for a tiny tiny tiny fraction FTL. 22:22:08 oerjan, you're working with standard relativistic energy, yes? 22:22:09 assuming 1.000025 c is the speed they go from a producer at 0 c 22:22:27 Prince_Charles: i'm just using velocity addition and the tanh trick 22:23:19 > let u <+> v = (u+v)/(1+u*v) in 1.000025 <+> 0.9999999997 -- more conventional formula 22:23:19 1.0000000000000038 22:23:23 eek 22:23:27 hm 22:23:36 > let u <+> v = (u+v)/(1+u*v) in 1.000025 <+> (-0.9999999997) -- more conventional formula 22:23:37 -1.000024000591981 22:23:51 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 22:23:59 withDeflateInput :: Deflate -> ByteString -> (IO (Maybe ByteString) -> IO a) -> IO a 22:24:01 oerjan: the worst api :( 22:24:47 > let u <+> v = (u+v)/(1+u*v) in 1.000025 <+> (-0.99) -- try something smaller... 22:24:48 1.0049873436755818 22:25:17 > let u <+> v = (u+v)/(1+u*v) in 1.000025 <+> (-0.9999) -- try something smaller... 22:25:18 1.6666111129612653 22:25:23 > let u <+> v = (u+v)/(1+u*v) in 1.000025 <+> (-0.99999) -- try something smaller... 22:25:24 -2.333372222851394 22:25:31 > let u <+> v = (u+v)/(1+u*v) in 1.000025 <+> (-0.99995) -- try something smaller... 22:25:32 2.9998500074916556 22:25:37 > let u <+> v = (u+v)/(1+u*v) in 1.000025 <+> (-0.99997) -- try something smaller... 22:25:37 10.998350247481781 22:25:57 > let u <+> v = (u+v)/(1+u*v) in 1.000025 <+> (-0.99998) -- try something smaller... 22:25:58 -9.000900090016856 22:26:07 > let u <+> v = (u+v)/(1+u*v) in 1.000025 <+> (-0.999975) -- try something smaller... 22:26:08 79999.97916991221 22:26:49 something like that to give arbitrary high neutrino speed 22:27:00 that big 22:28:17 elliott: no the worst api is: hahahaha :: (() -> ()) -> () 22:28:25 ok 22:28:35 well the experimental speed is quite a tiny excess above c, so it stands to reason that magnifying that would need near-c relative velocity 22:29:47 -!- Behold has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:29:55 you know what's awesome about my location 22:30:07 we have this semi-fast-food chain called Zaxby's 22:30:11 that's amazing. 22:30:12 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 22:30:31 So unique it has 500 locations. 22:30:50 s/location/region of the united state/ 22:31:23 one of the few redeeming qualities of living the southeastern US 22:31:44 +in 22:36:41 also if I ever leave Georgia there will be NO CHICK-FIL-A WHYYYYY 22:36:50 why do we have all of the best chicken-based food chains. 22:36:56 OTOH, you won't be in Georgia any more. 22:37:37 you'll never understand the joys of well-made fried chicken. 22:37:51 not with that attitude. 22:38:37 As of September 2011, Chick-fil-A has 1,583 restaurants in 39 states and the District of Columbia, and is focusing on the Midwest and southern California.[ 22:38:43 oh nevermind their online store locator is just weird. 22:40:15 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chick-fil-A#Religious_and_political_views 22:40:16 lol 22:40:24 I find that heading funny. 22:40:49 (Chick-fil-a is a strong proponent of Christianity.) 22:40:56 "S. Truett Cathy is a devout Southern Baptist who has taught Sunday School since 19xx" 22:40:59 Whodathunkit? 22:41:02 19xx, best year. 22:41:47 Prince_Charles: oh well... I was considering the irony of the fast food chain LITERALLY practicing a faith 22:41:50 like... as an entity. 22:42:00 but okay you can interpret the normal way too that's fine. 22:43:34 I think that it is important to note that, in December of 2010, the SPLC officially named AFA and FRC as hate groups. CFA affiliates with both of those organizations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.28.148.50 (talk) 01:06, 5 January 2011 (UTC) 22:43:35 The SPLC is nothing more than a highly-partisan, left-wing group that uses name calling as its weapon of choice against individuals and organizations that don't tow the PC line. They deliberately put mainstream groups with rather innocuous agendas in the same category as the KKK and neo-Nazis. "Hate group" in their little world is any group that opposes their hard-line leftist agenda. That an organizat 22:43:35 ion like this calls anybody "hateful" is not noteworthy. --AntigrandiosËTalk 14:55, 6 September 2011 (UTC) 22:44:33 What zlib what? (I'm almost slep.) 22:45:37 elliott: I haven't really figured out what's bad about an agenda of tolerance. Can you explain? 22:45:58 fizzie: I a-fixed it. You should-a: come and see the Bugs Memorial Test Server. 22:46:00 CakeProphet: r u srs 22:46:06 hold on while I look up these acronyms. 22:46:32 southern poverty law center? :P 22:46:45 I don't a computer I slep, sorry. 22:46:57 fizzie: You a bet. 22:47:00 bad. 22:49:27 :^-: 22:49:58 %>$ 22:50:13 * CakeProphet is practicing for the worst emoticon championship. 22:50:21 ok 22:52:29 CakeProphet, you're up against some pretty stiff competition, although tiffany does lack that certain je ne sans I don't remember what the phrase is actually. 22:52:51 ..? 22:53:49 o~o 22:53:59 [-F 22:54:09 i'm glad my face isn't ..? 22:54:13 that would probably hurt 22:54:46 %>$ too 22:54:56 i'd be dead 22:55:07 ") 22:55:36 o.o 22:55:38 @|< 22:55:38 Maybe you meant: . ? @ bf do ft id pl rc v wn 22:55:52 oerjan: stick figure 22:55:54 with a big head. 22:56:01 correct 22:56:10 &_& 22:56:11 the elephant man, to be precise 22:56:34 tiffany: come on, you can do better than that 22:56:50 #_# pretty much any two symbols and an _ can look like a face to me. except the brackety ones. 22:57:15 (_) 22:57:18 )_) 22:57:25 )_( 22:57:31 !_! %_% *_* $_$ :_: '_' '_" 22:57:36 |_| 22:57:50 cakeprophet_cakeprophet 22:58:02 t_t 22:58:02 best emoticon in the world 22:58:09 monqy loses championshiwep 22:58:13 t(-_-t) 22:58:37 ?_! 22:58:37 Maybe you meant: . ? @ bf do ft id pl rc v wn 22:58:59 {_{ 22:59:16 ._. ,_. ;-; 22:59:19 }_{ 22:59:30 `_` ~_~ 22:59:32 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: _`: not found 22:59:34 CakeProphet, you're up against some pretty stiff competition, although tiffany does lack that certain je ne sans I don't remember what the phrase is actually. // So you could say the phrase is something of a ... je ne sais quoi? X-P 22:59:44 Yes. 22:59:49 ___ 23:00:01 good phrase 23:00:06 I need to remember it 23:00:31 elliott: see: someone admiring a french expression. 23:00:45 -!- boily has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5). 23:01:09 ¯-¯ ¯_¯ -_- 23:01:24 ¯0¯ 23:01:48 ¯3¯ 23:02:22 _-_ 23:02:46 http://wurstcaptures.untergrund.net/music/?oneliner=100*sin(t)&rate=44100]100*sin(t) 23:02:49 beautiful music. 23:03:06 excuse me: http://wurstcaptures.untergrund.net/music/?oneliner=100*sin(t)&rate=44100 23:03:23 http://www.bemmu.com/music/index.html is better 23:04:05 >> is bitshift I guess? 23:09:38 elliott: huh I gave my link the same input as one from your site and it sounds completely different. 23:09:53 sin(t/30) * ((t>>6|t>>4)&63&t>>2) + tan(t/30)/40 23:09:53 sample rate? 23:10:01 44k 23:10:25 what's the sr of bemmu.com? it doesn't specify. 23:11:15 ah it's 8000 23:11:22 or close 23:11:28 it gives a similar sound when I select 8000 23:12:04 it is, see the video 23:12:18 that one you linked is just some lame derivative of http://www.bemmu.com/music/index.html with pointless sample rate selection :p 23:12:37 you guys want to start an EXPERIMENTAL PORGRAMIN BAND? 23:12:45 no 23:13:26 this video is pretty neato 23:13:42 bitshift is neato. 23:21:14 Bitch ift. 23:22:06 -!- copumpkin has joined. 23:22:37 haha, Gregor make funny 23:23:35 Tzec beat me to making a geometry based language ebcause I am lazy. 23:23:42 *because 23:23:59 t*(t>>sin(t/31)+t>>14) * 100 is good 23:27:10 -!- ive has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 23:30:41 MDude, one-up him, make a general geometry-based language. 23:32:49 * CakeProphet should make a programming language whose programs are weather forecast data. 23:33:23 "general"? 23:35:39 CakeProphet: it's going to take the world by storm 23:36:04 Dammit wiki let me see recent changes. 23:36:32 Prince_Charles: append ? 23:37:17 why would that be necessary... 23:37:40 chrome 23:37:42 some bug in something 23:38:43 Ah, I need to ask it /if/ there have been recent changes. 23:39:04 >_> 23:39:13 * Prince_Charles → sleep 23:39:15 Brains? Are people still making brainfuck derivatives..... 23:39:15 -!- Prince_Charles has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:39:59 brainfuck 3000 23:41:22 I wonder if there's enough commands made for direvatives to make one that uses no commands from the original and stull be turing complete. 23:41:35 definitely 23:41:42 there are huge ones with like direct duplicates of brainfuck as different commands 23:42:04 Not the commands as in the caracters. 23:42:19 They'd need ot work a bit differently too. 23:43:10 For instance, Brainscramble gives you three stacks, and there's one that gives you a grid of bits. 23:43:46 heh 23:43:59 I think almost certainly 23:44:16 -!- Patashu has joined. 23:44:23 The hard part is going though all of them, since many aren't properly categorized. 23:44:29 brainfuck minus brainfuck 23:59:52 -!- kwertii has quit (Quit: kwertii).