00:00:09 <Vorpal> I don't mean that. I mean Linux or Windows game.
00:00:20 <tiffany> https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Mainframe_computer#Description this sounds so awesome
00:00:38 <tiffany> eh, I tend to not use the term "PC game"
00:00:39 <zzo38> Vorpal: Well, at least that is somewhat better than meaning Windows-only.
00:01:09 <Vorpal> zzo38: basically it means to me anything that could run on my desktop, which has windows and linux installed.
00:01:22 <Vorpal> that is, without the use of an emulator
00:01:34 <tiffany> there's a wine and a line, I wonder if there's a mine
00:01:54 <tiffany> it's some backwards version of wine
00:02:26 <Vorpal> oh and wine generally fails on high end games. Especially on radeon graphics.
00:03:15 <zzo38> Many UNIX programs can be recompiled to run on Windows by using Cygwin.
00:03:28 <Vorpal> cygwin is quite horrible
00:03:41 <tiffany> wine fails on newer directX's for me
00:03:51 <CakeProphet> cygwin is terrible, but better than the alternative of nothing.
00:04:00 <tiffany> it runs portal 1 (although super slow at loading things), but not portal 2
00:04:05 <tiffany> and also runs opengl games perfectly
00:04:06 <Vorpal> tiffany: it seems to work with dx10 stuff sometimes. Never dx11
00:04:26 <tiffany> and then opengl stuff I've always found are faster on linux under wine then they are natively on windows :P
00:04:32 <Vorpal> tiffany: portal 1 runs fine in wine
00:04:37 <zzo38> Depending on the way a program is written, it might work even with MinGW. When I write a C prorgam I try to make it work on Windows with MinGW, and on any UNIX systems, just as well.
00:04:44 <Vorpal> tiffany: oh? what games on windows use opengl?
00:04:58 <Vorpal> tiffany: never heard of it, what sort of game is it?
00:05:05 <tiffany> it's a block building game :p
00:05:05 <Vorpal> please please not a mc clone
00:05:27 <tiffany> It was started in like 2003 I think, and it's a lego kind of game
00:05:28 <Vorpal> tiffany: so what is it about then, block building but not an mc clone?
00:05:44 <Vorpal> tiffany: I have done lego under wine. CAD.
00:06:21 <Vorpal> you know what I should do? I should design a device so I can do CAM with lego. The device would be built in lego too
00:06:33 <Vorpal> no idea how to pull it off, but it sounds awesome
00:06:52 <Vorpal> ESPECIALLY if it could replicate itself from lego parts
00:08:41 <Vorpal> on a completely unrelated note: different headphones makes a much larger difference than different sound cards. Though both matter.
00:09:08 <HackEgo> sh: units: command not found
00:09:19 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: version NaN
00:12:35 <CakeProphet> `fetch ftp://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/units/units-1.88.tar.gz
00:12:38 <HackEgo> 2011-10-03 00:12:38 URL: ftp://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/units/units-1.88.tar.gz [261519] -> "units-1.88.tar.gz" [1]
00:13:15 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ units-1.88 \ units-1.88.tar.gz \ wisdom
00:13:25 <HackEgo> COPYING \ ChangeLog \ INSTALL \ Makefile.OS2 \ Makefile.dos \ Makefile.in \ NEWS \ README \ README.OS2 \ configure \ configure.ac \ getopt.c \ getopt.h \ getopt1.c \ install-sh \ makeobjs.cmd \ mkinstalldirs \ parse.tab.c \ parse.y \ strfunc.c \ texi2man \ units.c \ units.dat \ units.doc \ units.dvi \ units.h \ units.info
00:13:45 <CakeProphet> can I make something without being in the right directory?
00:15:55 <HackEgo> checking for gcc... gcc \ checking for C compiler default output file name... a.out \ checking whether the C compiler works... yes \ checking whether we are cross compiling... no \ checking for suffix of executables... \ checking for suffix of object files... o \ checking whether we are using the GNU C compiler... yes
00:16:08 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: it will time out the command
00:16:17 <Vorpal> `run cd units-1.88 && make
00:16:19 <HackEgo> make: *** No targets specified and no makefile found. Stop.
00:16:30 <Vorpal> before it finished configuring even
00:16:52 <Vorpal> `run cd units-1.88 && ./configure --prefix=$HOME/units &> errors.log
00:17:08 <Vorpal> `url units-1.88/errors.log
00:17:10 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/units-1.88/errors.log
00:17:35 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: but BEST way is to just wait for gregor
00:17:51 <Vorpal> and the error log file didn't work
00:17:53 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/units-1.88/errors.log
00:18:15 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: file was never created
00:18:34 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: anyway there is no time for configure to complete
00:18:38 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: better way
00:18:39 <HackEgo> make: *** No rule to make target `install'. Stop.
00:18:42 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: arch: not found
00:18:49 <HackEgo> Linux (none) 3.0.1-umlbox #5 Fri Aug 19 13:17:44 UTC 2011 x86_64 GNU/Linux
00:18:56 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: there IS NO MAKEFILE
00:19:09 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: compile a static x86-64 units locally and upload it
00:19:20 <CakeProphet> what would the likelihood be of me giving it my units executable and it running with absolutely no problems?
00:19:29 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: link it statically
00:19:40 <CakeProphet> I'm guessing this is not what apt-get does by default
00:19:54 <Vorpal> it will be dynamic by default of course
00:20:14 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: I assume you are able to figure out the rest by yourself. I'm going to sleep
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00:30:37 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ units-1.88 \ units-1.88.tar.gz \ wisdom
00:30:57 <HackEgo> rm: invalid option -- \ Try `rm --help' for more information.
00:30:59 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ units-1.88 \ units-1.88.tar.gz \ wisdom
00:31:12 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ units-1.88 \ units-1.88.tar.gz \ wisdom
00:31:48 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `units-1.88': No such file or directory
00:31:54 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ wisdom
00:35:58 <HackEgo> mkdir: cannot create directory `/usr/local/share': File exists
00:36:19 <HackEgo> mkdir: invalid option -- \ Try `mkdir --help' for more information.
00:38:14 <oerjan> CakeProphet: HackEgo's repository merging sometimes means a command does not yet see the result of a previous command
00:38:53 <CakeProphet> hmmm for some reason my static compile isn't working but I have no clue why..
00:39:11 <CakeProphet> make install doesn't really give me an error output just a bunch of command echos.
00:39:26 <oerjan> CakeProphet: i do not think you have writing access to /usr
00:39:48 <CakeProphet> you mean locally? I do if I use sudo, of course..
00:40:14 <oerjan> it's not running as root :P
00:40:29 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ wisdom
00:40:38 <oerjan> that's the home directory
00:40:46 <HackEgo> ls: invalid option -- \ Try `ls --help' for more information.
00:40:50 <HackEgo> total 32 \ drwxr-xr-x 2 0 0 4096 Mar 25 2011 bin \ drwxr-xr-x 4 0 0 4096 Feb 5 2011 dev \ drwxr-xr-x 3 0 0 0 Oct 3 00:40 etc \ drwxr-xr-x 7 5000 0 4096 Oct 3 00:40 hackenv \ drwxr-xr-x 3 0 0 0 Oct 3 00:40 home \ drwxr-xr-x 10 0 0 4096 Mar 25 2011 lib \ drwxr-xr-x 10 0 0 4096 Mar 25 2011
00:41:17 <HackEgo> cpp \ init \ ld-2.7.so \ ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 \ libBrokenLocale-2.7.so \ libBrokenLocale.so.1 \ libSegFault.so \ libacl.so.1 \ libacl.so.1.1.0 \ libanl-2.7.so \ libanl.so.1 \ libattr.so.1 \ libattr.so.1.1.0 \ libblkid.so.1 \ libblkid.so.1.0 \ libbz2.so.1 \ libbz2.so.1.0 \ libbz2.so.1.0.4 \ libc-2.7.so \ libc.so.6 \ libcfont.so.0
00:41:31 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /lib/local/share: No such file or directory
00:42:01 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ wisdom
00:42:37 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ wisdom
00:43:06 <oerjan> the repository doesn't preserve empty dirs :P
00:44:09 <CakeProphet> `run mkdir -p usr/local/share 2>&1 && touch usr/lol && touch usr/local/lol && touch /usr/local/share/lol
00:44:11 <HackEgo> touch: cannot touch `/usr/local/share/lol': Read-only file system
00:44:32 <CakeProphet> `run mkdir -p usr/local/share 2>&1 && touch usr/lol && touch usr/local/lol && touch usr/local/share/lol
00:44:39 <oerjan> i don't think you need a file in the intermediate ones. but who knows.
00:44:40 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ usr \ wisdom
00:45:11 <CakeProphet> uh... so I'm too clear on how run this configure script to make it work in this environment...
00:45:33 <oerjan> well i cannot answer that.
00:45:55 <CakeProphet> ./configure --exec-prefix="/home/hackenv/bin" --datadir="/home/hackenv/usr/local/share"
00:46:41 <CakeProphet> so this environment is basically completely non-standard :P
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00:48:59 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom
00:51:02 <CakeProphet> `fetch http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16495819/hackenv/bin/units
00:51:04 <HackEgo> 2011-10-03 00:51:04 URL:http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16495819/hackenv/bin/units [146396/146396] -> "units" [1]
00:51:13 <HackEgo> mv: missing destination file operand after `units bin' \ Try `mv --help' for more information.
00:51:36 <CakeProphet> `fetch http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16495819/hackenv/share/units.dat
00:51:38 <HackEgo> 2011-10-03 00:51:38 URL:http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16495819/hackenv/share/units.dat [221844/221844] -> "units.dat" [1]
00:52:12 <HackEgo> sh: /hackenv/bin/units: Permission denied
00:52:26 <HackEgo> sh: /hackenv/bin/units: Permission denied
00:52:43 <HackEgo> units: error while loading shared libraries: libreadline.so.6: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
00:53:39 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 146396 Oct 3 00:53 bin/units
00:55:02 <augur> http://countercomplex.blogspot.com/2011/10/algorithmic-symphonies-from-one-line-of.html
00:55:22 <CakeProphet> I think I might have to like... add a bunch of linker flags to weird places?
00:57:27 <CakeProphet> this configure script apparently doesn't have --enable-static or --disable-shared
01:00:16 <oerjan> augur: i think everyone here but me did stuff like that yesterday
01:00:33 <oerjan> i cannot recall if you were involved
01:01:09 <oerjan> is viznut someone known here?
01:01:15 <augur> oerjan: its cool :o
01:01:53 <oerjan> by the finnish guys, perhaps
01:03:05 <CakeProphet> according to the autoconf file units generates both static and share by default???
01:10:25 <pikhq_> CakeProphet: --enable-static and --disable-shared, contrary to common belief, does not mean "link this statically".
01:10:40 <pikhq_> CakeProphet: --enable-static enables building static libraries, and --disable-shared disables building shared libraries.
01:10:48 <pikhq_> What you want is LDFLAGS=-static
01:11:03 <CakeProphet> but uh... it's still shared for some reason?
01:11:31 <pikhq_> Then the person who made that program does not know autoconf. :P
01:12:05 <pikhq_> Depends, how are you setting it?
01:12:19 <pikhq_> Or LDFLAGS=-static ...?
01:12:32 <pikhq_> Congrats, you don't know shell. :P
01:13:17 <oerjan> it might depend on the shell
01:13:18 <pikhq_> FOO=bar will export FOO=bar for the following command.
01:13:30 <pikhq_> It's... Kinda a common shell idiom.
01:13:59 <pikhq_> Up there with pipes in commonness.
01:15:08 <CakeProphet> (.text+0x38db): warning: Using 'endpwent' in statically linked applications requires at runtime the shared libraries from the glibc version used for linking
01:17:19 <CakeProphet> pikhq_: also does this warning sound like it will be a problem?
01:17:48 <pikhq_> CakeProphet: Not for the intended usecase: HackEgo has the glibc .sos.
01:18:02 <oerjan> `run ls /usr/lib/share/libc*
01:18:04 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /usr/lib/share/libc*: No such file or directory
01:21:20 <CakeProphet> `fetch http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16495819/hackenv/bin/units
01:21:23 <HackEgo> 2011-10-03 01:21:22 URL:http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16495819/hackenv/bin/units [146396/146396] -> "units" [1]
01:21:51 <HackEgo> units: error while loading shared libraries: libreadline.so.6: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
01:24:02 <CakeProphet> `fetch http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16495819/hackenv/bin/units
01:24:08 <HackEgo> 2011-10-03 01:24:08 URL:http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16495819/hackenv/bin/units [1613113/1613113] -> "units" [1]
01:24:22 <HackEgo> GNU Units version 1.88 \ with readline, units database in /hackenv/share/units.dat \ Copyright (C) 2006 Free Software Foundation, Inc. \ GNU Units comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY. \ You may redistribute copies of GNU Units \ under the terms of the GNU General Public License. \
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01:25:15 <HackEgo> conformability error \.75 A^2 s^4 / kg m^2 \.1 A s
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01:25:49 <HackEgo> * 61.23497 \./ 0.016330538
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01:26:21 <HackEgo> Error in '135 tempF': Parse error
01:26:36 <oerjan> `run units '273.15 K' celsius
01:26:53 <oerjan> `run units '273.15 K' tempC
01:27:43 <CakeProphet> Think of `tempF(x)' not as a function but as a notation which indicates that `x' should have units of `tempF' attached to it. See Nonlinear units. The first conversion shows that if it's 45 degrees Fahrehneit outside it's 7.2 degrees Celsius. The second conversions indicates that a change of 45 degrees Fahrenheit corresponds to a change of 25 degrees Celsius.
01:27:43 <oerjan> `run units '1.000025 c' m
01:27:45 <HackEgo> conformability error \.2.9979995e+08 m / s \.1 m
01:28:02 <oerjan> `run units '1.000025 c' 'm/s'
01:28:04 <HackEgo> * 2.9979995e+08 \./ 3.3355576e-09
01:29:24 <CakeProphet> so any non-linear conversion uses the function notation.
01:29:44 <oerjan> `run units '1/picobarn' 'm^2'
01:29:45 <HackEgo> reciprocal conversion \..* 1e-40 \./ 1e+40
01:30:00 <oerjan> `run units '1 picobarn' 'm^2'
01:30:38 <HackEgo> Unknown unit 'beardsecond'
01:31:25 <oerjan> strictly speaking celsius -> fahrenheit is perfectly linear :)
01:31:49 <CakeProphet> well yeah, they mean that it can't be expresses a conversion factor
01:32:50 <HackEgo> * 0.97112861 \./ 1.0297297
01:33:05 <oerjan> `run units '1 light nanosecond' feet
01:33:07 <HackEgo> * 0.98357106 \./ 1.0167034
01:34:41 <oerjan> `run units '1 c' 'furlongs/fortnight'
01:34:43 <HackEgo> * 1.8026175e+12 \./ 5.5474886e-13
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01:36:33 <CakeProphet> `run echo "beardsecond 5 nanometers" >> share/units.dat
01:36:53 <HackEgo> * 1.6404199e-08 \./ 60960000
01:37:04 <HackEgo> * 8.2020997e-05 \./ 12192
01:39:29 <CakeProphet> `run units '5000 beardseconds/hour' 'feet/year'
01:39:30 <HackEgo> * 0.71898071 \./ 1.3908579
01:39:49 <CakeProphet> `run units '5000 beardseconds/second' 'feet/year'
01:39:51 <HackEgo> * 2588.3305 \./ 0.00038634942
01:40:22 <CakeProphet> I'm interpreting that to mean that 5000 men produce 2588 feet of beard on average per year?
01:44:37 <CakeProphet> `run units '1 beardseconds/second' 'feet/year'
01:44:39 <HackEgo> * 0.51766611 \./ 1.9317471
01:46:12 <CakeProphet> `run units '424 demisemiquavers' 'wholenotes'
02:22:08 <Gregor> The best way is not to wait for me.
02:22:13 <Gregor> The best way is to Just Do It™.
02:22:18 <Gregor> I'm glad to see that's what you did :P
02:26:50 <CakeProphet> like how to statically link via a configure script, and that variable export idiom thing,
02:29:31 <CakeProphet> waiting on Gregor seemed counter to the spirit of HackEgo. :P
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04:14:06 <oerjan> `logs improbable[.]com/ig.*2011
04:14:08 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: logs: not found
04:14:14 <oerjan> `log improbable[.]com/ig.*2011
04:14:57 <oerjan> seems no one has mentioned it yet, despite 2 days passed: http://www.improbable.com/ig/winners/?repost#ig2011
04:15:49 <oerjan> (the ?repost was probably just to get it accepted by reddit's repost filter)
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04:22:21 <oerjan> i think many of us should heed the results from the literature prize.
04:23:09 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur.
04:25:25 <oerjan> omg the physics prize XD
04:28:02 <oerjan> the public safety prize sounds safe. yeah.
04:30:35 <pikhq> "Peace: Arturas Zuokas, the mayor of Vilnius, Lithuania, for demonstrating that the problem of illegally parked luxury cars can be solved by running over them with a tank."
04:32:42 <Sgeo|fsck_web> Warning: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /usr/www/users/improb/ig/ig-pastwinners.html:1) in /usr/www/users/improb/wp-includes/functions.php on line 3286
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05:05:03 <Vorpal> "Error establishing a database connection" too
05:07:20 <oerjan> hm well it was working previously
05:09:23 <Vorpal> oerjan: who were the winners this year?
05:09:45 <Vorpal> saw something about turtles and yawning mentioned somewhere iirc?
05:09:59 <oerjan> yes, that was the physiology prize
05:10:50 <Vorpal> "Peace: Arturas Zuokas, the mayor of Vilnius, Lithuania, for demonstrating that the problem of illegally parked luxury cars can be solved by running over them with a tank." <-- wha
05:10:52 <oerjan> another link: http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2011/09/2011-ig-nobel-awards-go-to-beetle-on-beer-bottle-sex-decision-making-while-needing-to-pee-others.ars
05:10:56 <Vorpal> https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/List_of_Ig_Nobel_Prize_winners#2011
05:11:21 <oerjan> that particular one was suspected on reddit of being a stunt
05:11:45 <Vorpal> oerjan: wouldn't just clamping them be saner
05:15:25 <Sgeo|fsck_web> "Perry postulates that, to be a high achiever, one must always work on something important, using it as a way to avoid something even more important. (Much as I am doing as I write this article; the bills that need to be paid can wait.)"
05:15:59 <Sgeo|fsck_web> I paste that as I procrastinate both sleep and homework
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05:50:51 <Madoka-Kaname> http://countercomplex.blogspot.com/2011/10/algorithmic-symphonies-from-one-line-of.html < Wow, now that I read the page behind it, it's actually quite interesting.
05:54:23 <pikhq> TIL: YHWH literally demands the firstborn son of everyone.
05:54:28 <pikhq> But as a dispensation, he allows you to sacrifice a valuable animal in lieu of the son.
05:54:53 <pikhq> "The firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me." — God.
05:56:09 <zzo38> "Thou shalt not make up God quotes." - God.
05:56:34 <zzo38> (This is from Uncyclopedia)
05:56:39 <pikhq> My quote was Exodus 22:29.
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06:23:53 -!- Sgeo|fsck_web has changed nick to AW346126.
06:24:19 * AW346126 vaguely hopes that {][3473|^ isn't a password
06:25:30 * AW346126 is almost tempted to see if it's a nickserv pass
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06:26:29 <oerjan> if it is, i hope you have already changed it
06:26:30 -!- Sgeo|web has joined.
06:27:34 <{][3473|^> anyone else want to try guessing the password?..
06:28:35 <Sgeo|web> Um, I think everyone here knows how ghost works
06:28:59 <{][3473|^> the protection uses the time comonad to affect events in the past!!!!
06:29:24 <Sgeo|web> You can't just say "Hah, fooled you!" and move on with your life?
06:29:55 <{][3473|^> but i thought it was obvious i'm only kidding :D
06:30:30 <Sgeo|web> It's 2:30 AM, and I have homework to do, then have to wake up at 7
06:31:00 <{][3473|^> why is it more important than your health
06:31:06 <Sgeo|web> coppro: have you seen latest Doctor Who?
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06:50:49 <olsner> if it's no longer enough to procrastinate stuff to tomorrow, apparently there's a word (perendinate) for delaying something until the day after tomorrow
06:51:27 <olsner> it seems to have an alternate meaning of simply to procrastinate but for a longer time
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07:02:34 <zzo38> I made up some kind of Bingo game where you have some control over the balls.
07:05:40 <zzo38> The balls are on a pinball table with holes and you can control them by nudging the table.
07:05:57 <{][3473|^> what if you used the normal bingo drum
07:06:05 <{][3473|^> but balls of different sizes or weights?
07:06:26 <zzo38> This game doesn't use the normal bingo drum. But I suppose you can make up that game too
07:06:54 <{][3473|^> it's much too direct with being able to nudge the table imo
07:11:24 <zzo38> Do you play any pinball game?
07:14:44 <zzo38> O, I just wanted to know. Which one?
07:14:59 <{][3473|^> last thing i played was epic pinball
07:15:36 <zzo38> Have you play any flipperless pinball games?
07:16:32 <{][3473|^> i remember they were somewhat tough to get the most desirable places
07:17:58 <zzo38> Which flipperless pinball games have you played?
07:21:22 <zzo38> I have played computer flipperless pinball game.
07:21:27 <{][3473|^> they consisted of a flat plastic surface and another flat acrylic plastic surface right in front of it
07:21:39 <{][3473|^> and had "holes" where the ball could go
07:21:48 <{][3473|^> they were more like platforms on which the ball would stop when falling down
07:22:18 <{][3473|^> you had like 5 balls, and each platform had a score
07:22:28 <{][3473|^> the idea was to maximize the score
07:22:39 <{][3473|^> the ball was tiny, maybe 2-3 mm across
07:22:39 <zzo38> I like the game JiggleBox and GooGooDaDa. In the game JiggleBox, there are bumpers and drop targets, as well as holes. Two holes are 50 points, two holes are 100 points, one hole is 0 points, and two holes immediately end the game.
07:22:52 <zzo38> Yes I have played those kind of games too.
07:24:26 <{][3473|^> because if you try to nudge or bump the game then the balls that are in place already would fall out
07:26:27 <zzo38> I can understand that. But if the table is standing on the ground and there are holes, as well as a plunger, an otherwise game similar to that, is what is called a bagatelle pinball game. Nudging is permitted although you cannot pick up the table.
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07:34:41 <augur> have we figured out these algorithmic symphonies yet?
07:43:17 <zzo38> How well do you know of music theory?
07:48:02 <augur> i mean these http://countercomplex.blogspot.com/2011/10/algorithmic-symphonies-from-one-line-of.html
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07:59:27 <zzo38> I did once also think of a pool ball game where the mass of each ball corresponds to its number, such as the number 3 ball has 3x mass of the number 1 ball.
08:01:29 <Patashu> that would be entertaining
08:02:19 <Sgeo|web> Should the rules for the 8 and 15 ball be swapped?
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08:09:36 <Sgeo|web> I think people like the transitive property for equality too much
08:12:10 <Sgeo|web> I think if you get rid of it, you might not actually have problems with 0/0. Totally worth it.
08:14:03 <Sgeo|web> I have to wake up in ~3 hours for a long day of school
08:15:32 <Sgeo|web> Is there a symbol for "contains the same information as expressed"?
08:15:49 <Sgeo|web> So that 5+5 =?= 5+5 but not =?= 10
08:16:22 <Patashu> saying 10 is different from saying 5+5
08:16:33 <{][3473|^> on the level of symbolic computation theory 5+5 = 5+5 but 5+5 == 10
08:16:49 <{][3473|^> the == is the congruence symbol with three lines
08:16:59 <{][3473|^> you just need to study maths a bit
08:17:13 <{][3473|^> = means shitloads of different, often opposite, things
08:17:22 <Patashu> so you agree that it's horribly overloaded
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08:23:11 <Madoka-Kaname> val e: Expr = t*5&(t>>7)|t*3&(t*4>>10) < yay for implicit conversions!
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08:29:55 <Patashu> know what would be an interesting savant power?
08:30:02 <Patashu> being able to look at one of those lines of code and know what it'll sound like.
08:30:11 <Patashu> surely someone somewhere in the world can do this
08:30:43 <augur> Madoka-Kaname: how is it implicitly converted?
08:30:52 <augur> there are no conversions there
08:31:18 <Madoka-Kaname> implicit def makeConstantValue(i: Int): Expr = ConstantValue(i) < this is mostly what I mean
08:31:33 <augur> i dont understand D:
08:32:36 <augur> {][3473|^: i think you might want to look at extensional vs. intensional equality
08:33:27 <{][3473|^> augur: extensionality is basic, so what?
08:33:43 <augur> extensional vs intensional is exactly what you're talking about
08:33:52 <augur> 5+5 ~ 5+5, but 5+5 /~ 10
08:34:12 <augur> you asked what it was called...
08:34:29 <augur> i misread the lines :D
08:34:37 <augur> {][3473|^: make me
08:35:17 <augur> sorry that doesnt work on me
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08:37:13 <ais523> Patashu: "augur" has no extension there, so would be interpreted as a linker script, IIRC
08:37:18 <ais523> you probably want a -x c++ in there somewhere
08:37:41 <augur> god this is irc you should be trying the obvious bash reference
08:38:01 <augur> bash.org is replete with irc memes appropriate for every situation
08:38:41 <Madoka-Kaname> Patashu, I have it set up to generate an image from each pattern, as described in that article.
08:38:52 <Patashu> madoka-kaname: you mean a waveform? or a spectrogram?
08:38:53 <augur> maybe try an xkcd meme!
08:39:07 <Patashu> oh, thanks for reminding me
08:39:14 <Madoka-Kaname> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Dqm7wUdc_b4/TohqK5jRKJI/AAAAAAAAAH4/I6Uk8HH75q0/s320/tejeeztune.jpg
08:39:19 <Patashu> ha ha, that classic black hat guy
08:39:34 <Patashu> huh. is that a spectrogram?
08:39:51 <Madoka-Kaname> It's the output data interpreted as brightness values.
08:39:54 <Patashu> it's intensity over time except wrapping to a square
08:40:08 <Patashu> that would be a useful tool to have on the site
08:40:13 <Madoka-Kaname> So, you should be able to look over it and rule out the most obviously not-going-to-work ones.
08:40:22 <Patashu> here's your music, also here's your timeline
08:40:43 <augur> dont forget smbc, satw, and hipster hitler!
08:40:51 <Patashu> is it going to know what width will make it line up as neat squares?
08:41:15 <Patashu> or will you tell it what width to use
08:42:17 <Madoka-Kaname> Which is the square root of 20*8000, i.e. 20 seconds of play
08:42:49 <augur> http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2386#comic
08:42:51 <Patashu> you could rate the 'neatness' of a given width by going down columns and counting how many lines have low energy (deviate low amounts from pixel to pixel)
08:43:01 <Patashu> low energy indicates same intensity lines lining up of course
08:45:36 <Patashu> Madoka-Kaname> It's the output data interpreted as brightness values.
08:46:30 <Patashu> http://www.bemmu.com/music/index.html
08:46:33 <{][3473|^> i have seen that line, it did not answer my question, so i brought it up
08:49:15 <Patashu> Does anyone know of a cat to human translator?
08:49:16 <{][3473|^> that web page doesn't seem to work too well in firefox
08:49:18 <Patashu> My cat is meowing at me again
08:49:27 <{][3473|^> also, if you like this sort of stuff, i suggest you look into max msp
08:56:43 <Madoka-Kaname> Patashu, think it'd be safe to reject a mutant if there's too much entropy?
08:57:50 <Patashu> I don't know enough about how you're checking for noisiness to answer
08:58:10 <Patashu> I think most of the ones you'll want to reject are hyper-repetitive or a pure tone
09:00:39 <Patashu> idea for a test: zip it with your favourite compression algorithm. if it compresses below X kb reject it
09:00:49 <Patashu> and if it compresses above X kb reject it
09:01:24 <fizzie> Unrecognized extensions are treated as object files to be fed directly to the linker, not necessarily linker scripts.
09:01:52 <fizzie> In particular, foo.o will go through that rule.
09:04:10 <Patashu> Phantom_Hoover: Is there a compression algorithm that does that?
09:04:26 <Patashu> I know normally they're optimized for certain kinds of files, like images/sound/text/log files
09:04:37 <Phantom_Hoover> I suspect that the answer is either 'all of them' or 'none of them' depending on how you define it.
09:05:02 <fizzie> Depending on how you define "estimate", too.
09:05:30 <Patashu> I guess ANY compression scheme is Kolmogorov complexity, isn't it? Just with a different machine it's defined for
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09:08:21 <Madoka-Kaname> (((t * 5) & (t >> 7)) ^ ((t * 3) & ((t * 4) >> 12))) < Can somebody figure out a way to make this less... uh...
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09:09:50 <Madoka-Kaname> Can somebody modify this to generate the image version instead of the sound version?
09:09:55 <Patashu> Madoka-Kaname: (((t * 5) & (t >> 7)) ^ ((t * 3) & ((t * 4) >> 12))) & 127
09:10:00 <Patashu> I basically beheaded it but it sounds a bit nicer like this
09:10:32 <Patashu> Does it have code to make the image version already?
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09:11:02 <Patashu> Rewrite it in javascript then
09:11:09 <Madoka-Kaname> http://i54.tinypic.com/123oz9z.png < Can anything be done about that buildup? :I
09:11:59 <Patashu> you should add some smaller periodic elements
09:12:55 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/kxqy4/brainfuk_turing_machine_javascript/
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09:19:50 <Madoka-Kaname> (((t * 5) & (t >> 7)) | (12 & ((t * 4) >> 15))) < This seems to be the.. eh...
09:20:48 <fizzie> Here's the quickest possible canvas-imagefication: http://users.ics.tkk.fi/htkallas/mimg/
09:21:04 <fizzie> It's just fixed 256x256 block, and splunts them samples in.
09:21:36 <fizzie> Doesn't even alter the length of the generated sample to match w*h or anything.
09:22:54 <Patashu> canvas element in html5 right?
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09:23:56 <fizzie> Also it seems to be on a gradient from white-to-half-gray-to-white instead of black-to-white, which is a bit weird; if I glanced at magic.js right, generateSound() results will be 0..65535.
09:24:44 <Patashu> fizzie: maybe the sample program never generates 65535
09:24:53 <fizzie> Yes, but I was testing with "t".
09:25:24 <itidus20> so i was thinking. if you have a chess game with a piece which can make null moves. and your opponent has such a piece. i wonder if you can enter into a null-move break wherein the person who makes the next move is the first one to declare a move
09:25:54 <Patashu> itidus20: normally if both players pass in a row the game ends. whatever the game happens to be
09:26:25 <fizzie> Oh, right, one of the samples is the alpha channel. Heh, stupidity. Fixed now.
09:26:32 <Patashu> and repeating an earlier stage is either stalemate or a loss depending on the game
09:26:48 <fizzie> Now it looks quite similar to that image that was posted.
09:26:48 <itidus20> i guess the chess laws would also say that is making the same move several times is not allowed after a certain number of times..
09:26:57 <itidus20> but it would make for an interesting variation i think
09:27:22 <Patashu> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zugzwang
09:29:40 <itidus20> i suppose formally each player, in a chess-variant game without zugzwang, would still have to declare "pass" or whatever..
09:29:59 <itidus20> but i like the idea of both passing resolving into a kind of gameshow buzzer situation
09:33:25 <itidus20> an interesting chess variant would be a first turn pass option
09:33:48 <Patashu> the first person has t he advantage in chess
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09:34:04 <Patashu> (iirc, it's quantified as being worth a bit less than a pawn)
09:35:01 <itidus20> hmm.. i can see that when passing enters the game, it messes with the whole concept of first person
09:35:48 <itidus20> no no.. im just very confused.. :)
09:36:08 <Patashu> and is recorded as your move
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10:22:51 <fizzie> Incidentally, here's a cheating "oneliner" (if you can still count it that) to that music thing which comprises Klatt's old cascade formant synthesizer, slightly simplified (no aspiration in voicing, no nasalization) and with mostly random parameters; also it's with fixed parameter values so it's quite boring, but you could easily vary them:
10:22:53 <fizzie> 128+600*r5(r4(r3(r2(r1(rg((t%40)==0?1:0)))))); }; var r1=r(710,50),r2=r(1100,70),r3=r(2450,110),r4=r(3300,250),r5=r(3750,200),rg=r(0,500); function r(F,BW) { var Z=8000,B=2*Math.exp(-3.14*BW/Z)*cos(2*3.14*F/Z),C=-Math.exp(-2*3.14*BW/Z),p1=0,p2=0; return function(x) { var p=(1-B-C)*x+B*p1+C*p2; p2=p1; p1=p; return p; };
10:23:25 <fizzie> It cheats by defining a couple of closures with their own memory.
10:33:59 -!- {][3473|^ has changed nick to cheater.
10:35:11 <Jafet> Using javascript like a useful language is cheating?
10:35:44 <fizzie> It is in this case; it's almost like code injection, since it normally does eval("var f = function (t) { return " + oneLiner + "}");
10:35:54 <fizzie> Maybe I miscopypasted it.
10:36:25 <fizzie> Hrm. E_WORKSFORME in this FF3.6 workstation.
10:37:49 <Jafet> Patashu: the problem with that is no one will pass, because slightly over half of won games are won for white
10:38:24 <Jafet> Oh sorry, you already said that to itidus
10:38:56 <Jafet> itidus: a good zugzwang is very rare in chess
10:39:46 <Jafet> (Why is chess a favourite topic of #esoteric? ... oh, right.)
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10:41:20 <Patashu> it's mostly itidus who brings it up
10:41:26 <ais523> where zugzwang is the only thing that wins several large classes of endings
10:41:58 <ais523> e.g. in king and pawn vs. king, the player at the disadvantage could just put their king on the pawn's promotion square in order to force a draw if they were allowed to pass
10:42:13 <Patashu> king and pawn vs king is a win right?
10:42:44 <cheater> i read that king and prawn
10:43:03 <cheater> "gee, what sort of ESOTERIC kind of chess are they inventing now"
10:43:28 <Patashu> there's a unit called a crab
10:43:35 <Patashu> it has half the movement of a knight; forward and wide or back and narrow
10:43:49 <Patashu> (as in, it has 4 out of 8 knight leaps available)
10:44:13 <ais523> Patashu: king and pawn vs king depends on the position, but is a win more commonly than a draw IIRC
10:44:20 <cheater> so right right forward and back back right but not fight forward forward or back right right?
10:44:37 <Patashu> as opposed to a barc, which scoots forward and scuttles back
10:44:51 <ais523> if both kings are in front of the pawn, and the king can't just capture the pawn, it's typically a win unless it's a rook pawn
10:44:58 <cheater> what chess is this used in
10:45:11 <Patashu> one of ralph betza's variants
10:45:19 <ais523> except if the lone king is in opposition
10:45:23 <cheater> ais523: what is a rook pawn?
10:45:32 <ais523> cheater: a pawn on a file on which a rook started
10:45:51 <ais523> likewise, knight pawn, bishop pawn, king pawn, queen pawn
10:45:53 <Patashu> http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=%22ralph+betza%22+crab&oq=%22ralph+betza%22+crab&aq=f&aqi=&aql=1&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=2645l3372l0l3447l7l4l0l0l0l0l346l346l3-1l1l0
10:46:13 <ais523> rook pawns are the most common endgame special-cases as they can only be attacked/defended from one side
10:46:23 <Patashu> there's a variant of chess where rook pawns move rookishly, bishop pawns move bishopishly and so on
10:46:27 <cheater> what is a good functional language with managed memory and strict eval?
10:46:41 <cheater> is there an ML variant with managed memory?
10:46:49 <ais523> cheater: "managed memory"? do you mean as in C++-style?
10:47:15 <cheater> gc messes you up if you try to do realtime
10:47:17 <ais523> functional languages tend not to work well un-GCed
10:47:24 <Patashu> functional with managed memory just seems contradictory
10:47:39 <ais523> it's hard enough to work out where the deallocations should go, offhand
10:47:57 <ais523> the thing is, conceptually a functional language always copies values
10:48:03 <ais523> in which case you don't need a GC at all
10:48:15 <ais523> but conceptually, because values are immutable, copying references to the values is more common
10:48:35 <cheater> i wish it were possible to write haskell without gc
10:48:37 <ais523> in pure functional languages, you can just use refcounting as a GC, if you wish (whether this is a good idea is another matter, but it's common)
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10:49:49 <cheater> the idea is that if you need to create an application that reacts in a certain time to prevent buffer underruns then you don't want to work with a gc'd language
10:54:09 <ais523> well, even deterministic memory management can have large pauses when a destructor is called
10:54:26 <ais523> ideally you want to use static allocation for hard-realtime, and that sort of doesn't mesh with functional programming
10:54:52 <cheater> yes but those pauses can be reasoned about
10:54:55 <ais523> hey, I think ICA is deterministic memory allocation and functional (all memory is allocated statically, so it disallows things like infinite recursion)
10:55:31 <cheater> and you can perform such big deallocators in a coroutine instead
10:56:14 <fizzie> Sun has that Real-Time Java thing, based on thar RTSJ, but I don't think it's very alive.
10:56:23 <cheater> maybe it's a better idea to write the core in C and run everything else in haskell or python or some stuff like that
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13:32:33 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
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13:46:33 <CakeProphet> <cheater> [...] haskell or python or some stuff like that
13:46:51 <CakeProphet> there some many things that are different about Python and Haskell
13:47:02 <CakeProphet> that I'm having a hard time discerning what the similarities are supposed to be
13:48:36 <ais523> they're both highish-level languages (Haskell being higher), and that's, umm, about it
13:48:57 <ais523> oh right, they can both use indentation meaningfully (although in Haskell you can use braces instead)
13:48:57 <cheater> and list comprehensions :D
13:49:16 <cheater> ais: in python you can do "from future import braces"
13:49:36 <ais523> cheater: that's just trolling
13:49:42 <ais523> clearly it was added to annoy Perl users
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13:49:56 <itidus20> BASIC uses linebreaks meaningfully
13:50:28 <itidus20> i guess not so much "meaningfully"
13:50:32 <cheater> that the python added that?
13:50:33 <ais523> itidus20: depends on the version, but most of the ones that take files as inputs use newline or colon as command separators
13:50:54 <itidus20> you can't actually add meaning to a basic program through newlines
13:51:20 <ais523> quite a few old BASIC impls, their input wasn't really a text file
13:51:34 <ais523> but a collection of numbered lines, with operations including inserting/deleting/replacing lines, and renumbering them
13:51:44 <itidus20> i am one of these bastards who likes BASIC
13:52:08 <cheater> we should make a language called ADVANCED
13:52:22 <itidus20> it wouldn't be esoteric if it was based on BASIC
13:52:33 <cheater> where everything is an object on a calabi-yau manifold
13:52:42 <cheater> and you type everything in ALL CAPS
13:52:54 <cheater> and line numbers are cayley octaves
13:52:59 <ais523> itidus20: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Forte
13:53:15 <ais523> the similarity to BASIC is intentional, as it helps highlight the ridiculous portion of the language
13:53:27 <cheater> what is the ridiculous portion of the language?
13:53:36 <ais523> at least, IMO if you're going to do one thing weird and crazy, the rest of the language should be traditional and familiar in order to highlight it better
13:53:41 <ais523> cheater: numbers can be assigned to
13:54:00 <ais523> go read the page, there are better examples there than could easily be expressed over IRC
13:55:06 <itidus20> so i only recently learned that turing machines and lambda calc actually preceeded electronic computers
13:55:11 <cheater> how about a language where values adhere to E_8 logic
13:56:50 <itidus20> i just naively assumed that imperative computation was the original
13:57:59 <ais523> imperative is not natural at all
13:58:34 <coppro> The most natural form of computation is proof
13:58:40 <coppro> which computers are bad at expressing
13:58:51 <cheater> the most natural form of computation is selection
14:00:47 <cheater> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jo-RZ27o3Uw
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14:19:59 <sadhu> CakeProphet: :P...brainfuck is really great!
14:21:57 <CakeProphet> sadhu: are you new to esoteric programming languages?
14:22:53 <sadhu> CakeProphet: i am not new but i am also not very old
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14:34:34 <ais523> oh, right, it must be 104
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14:55:04 <ais523> gah at anagolf using ints not chars for a BF tape
14:55:14 <ais523> in particular, I can't clear cells reliably with [-] without knowing whether they're positive
14:56:40 <ais523> because if they're negative it'll loop forever, or long enough that it'll timeout
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15:03:50 * ais523 uses inelegant solution of >>>>>> rather than [-]
15:06:17 <ais523> context is Anarchy Golf, btw
15:06:26 <ais523> I just submitted the first BF solution to the ttp problem, it comes to 100 chars exactly
15:06:38 <ais523> it's rather inelegant but quite short, and I can't think of an obvious way to beat it
15:07:14 <ais523> heh, it even beats the best Java submission, although it's the second-most-verbose language
15:09:49 <ais523> it's >ing through zeros
15:14:04 <ais523> http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?ttp
15:14:13 <ais523> basically, change "ttp" to "http" at the starts of lines
15:14:55 <ais523> the BF program I wrote is basically "at the start of a line, insert 'h' unless it starts with 'h'"
15:15:38 <ais523> no idea why nobody else submitted the m4 for that, it's beautifully simple
15:16:11 <ais523> define(ttp,http)include(/dev/fd/0)
15:16:28 <ais523> only works because there are no commas or quotes in the input (with commas in the input it becomes much, much harder, quotes can be worked around)
15:16:46 <ais523> oh, or m4 reserved words either
15:18:09 <ais523> that can also be worked around, by undefining/renaming them (only "include" would need renaming)
15:18:36 <ais523> and I got a beautiful representation of 104 from the wiki
15:18:56 <ais523> 'twould be a lot shorter in a wrapping representation, though
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15:23:47 <elliott> ais523: Considered self-modification?
15:23:48 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
15:23:59 <elliott> I got it working but it only did it for one line and then I pressed back and lost th ecode.
15:24:18 <elliott> (Anagolf's BF interpreter provides the code at negative locations.)
15:24:51 <ais523> elliott: oh right, stack smashing
15:24:57 <ais523> I don't cheat like that
15:24:59 <elliott> ais523: it, err, isn't a bug
15:25:03 <elliott> it's an intentional feature of the implementation
15:25:13 <elliott> it's just that anagolf calls it "brainfuck" incorrectly
15:25:16 <ais523> sure? the source code of the impl is linked, and it looks like a stack-smash to me
15:25:36 <ais523> but I was hardly paying attention
15:25:49 <elliott> "I think we are using this C interpreter, but I'm not sure..."
15:26:24 <elliott> ais523: hmm, if it works with this implementation, it's a stack smash, but I'm not sure it is this implementation
15:26:32 <ais523> fair enough, neither is shinh
15:26:37 <elliott> I think you would have to do < close to 32768 times to get to the program
15:26:51 <elliott> which clearly isn't the case, or do people do [<]?
15:26:54 <ais523> it does seem to go into an infinite loop with [-] on a negative number, so it's using an int-based (or maybe bignum) tape
15:27:05 <ais523> probably not [<], probably an inverse that goes through zeroes
15:27:05 <elliott> ais523: well, the actual code to the system is open source, so I might as well check
15:27:34 <elliott> now to guess whether the directory is be/ or fe/...
15:27:55 <elliott> thanks shinh, you golfed your filenames
15:29:23 <elliott> hmm, it would be fun to write a program to produce shorter constants than the ones on http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_constants, for large numbers
15:29:27 <elliott> or are they computer-generated already?
15:29:50 <elliott> calamari seemed to write them then oerjan seems to have tweaked them a lot
15:38:26 <Vorpal> <elliott> "I think we are using this C interpreter, but I'm not sure..." <-- C interpreter?
15:39:29 <elliott> Vorpal: Indeed, many lines don't make sense if you tape over the context on your monitor.
15:40:06 <Vorpal> elliott: yes I'm doing a scientific study on the effects of context.
15:48:34 <elliott> ais523: wow, that 104 on the esowiki is hard to understand
15:48:48 <ais523> elliott: you're, umm, posting numbers, as digits
15:48:54 <ais523> and I don't know what they mean
15:49:06 <elliott> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Brainfuck_constants#100_97
15:49:11 <ais523> ah no, BF constants reference
15:49:30 * elliott tries to figure out which parts of it touch the target cell itself
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16:18:20 <Ngevd> 'Tis what I oft say
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16:49:07 <Ngevd> A programming language with two outputs:
16:49:47 <Ngevd> Standard output, and another output which is lazily interpreted as the programming language
16:51:34 <Ngevd> Actually, the opposite of lazy
16:52:00 <Ngevd> As soon as it has enough characters that can be interpreted the same regardless of subsequent characters, they are executed
16:53:00 <elliott> Ngevd: that /is/ lazy, sort of
16:53:04 <Vorpal> Ngevd: is this recursive btw?
16:53:06 <elliott> Ngevd: anyway, obviously you need some programming language to start it off
16:53:13 <elliott> so you can start producing the programming language
16:53:14 <Ngevd> Not recursive, I don't think
16:53:27 <elliott> Ngevd: hmm... /me mentally fleshes this out
16:53:34 <Ngevd> Unfortunately, the only way I can think of doing this is as...
16:53:37 <Vorpal> Ngevd: the output which is interpreted as the programming language is the same language but without the output feature?
16:53:40 <Ngevd> I'm not even going to mention it
16:54:06 <Ngevd> A brainfuck derivative
16:54:21 <Ngevd> Someone else take my idea and run
16:54:33 <Ngevd> I just can't think of anything else
16:54:37 <Ngevd> Mind has gone blank
16:54:50 <Vorpal> befunge wouldn't really work
16:55:12 <Ngevd> Don't know glass well enough to answer that
16:55:15 <Vorpal> I don't know any glass derivative
16:56:15 <Vorpal> Ngevd: it is oop + postfix
16:56:39 <Ngevd> I'll add it to my list of ones to learn
16:56:54 <Vorpal> I never actually coded in it
16:57:49 <Vorpal> Ngevd: malbolge derivative
16:59:12 <Ngevd> elliott, did you say you were taking the idea and running with it?
16:59:25 <elliott> or at least thinking about running with it
17:00:24 <Ngevd> Going to get some dinner now, bye
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17:01:49 <Vorpal> hmm... if a game with mostly constant background music goes silent (perhaps with environmental sounds still) it tends to mean boss fight coming up, almost always. No?
17:03:43 <Vorpal> oh okay. Or rising lava level about to happen and THEN boss fight. Unpleasant things anyway.
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17:05:59 <fizzie> It may also mean "background music engine glitched out".
17:06:22 <Vorpal> fizzie: well yes. But it faded out in a very meaningful way :P
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17:29:49 <Ngevd> elliott, has your running with my idea gotten anywhere yet?
17:30:57 <Ngevd> <Ngevd> I've had an idea
17:30:58 <Ngevd> <Ngevd> A programming language with two outputs:
17:30:58 <Ngevd> <Ngevd> Standard output, and another output which is lazily interpreted as the programming language
17:31:42 <Ngevd> <Ngevd> Well, not lazily
17:31:42 <Ngevd> <Ngevd> Actually, the opposite of lazy
17:31:42 <Ngevd> <Ngevd> As soon as it has enough characters that can be interpreted the same regardless of subsequent characters, they are executed
17:32:58 <Ngevd> <elliott> Ngevd: that /is/ lazy, sort of
17:33:51 <elliott> Ngevd: I'm still thinking about it idly.
17:34:18 <Ngevd> I wonder if it would be turing-complete without conditional loops?
17:38:00 <Ngevd> Like, if it had a repeat n times loop and a repeat forever loop
17:38:50 <Ngevd> Or possibly not even a repeat forever loop
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17:57:59 <Ngevd> I've written up an idea for this language
17:58:43 <Ngevd> I think I'll call it Brook
18:00:28 <elliott> my idea: stolen back to its owner
18:00:43 <elliott> monqy: What does one do when one has the urge to write a Haskell compiler?
18:00:43 <Ngevd> Feel free to continue
18:00:52 <Ngevd> Yours would probably be better
18:01:12 <Ngevd> That is, the infinite list language, not the Haskell compiler
18:01:21 <Ngevd> I really don't know about the Haskell compiler
18:03:38 -!- Geronim1 has joined.
18:04:29 <Ngevd> We both write a spec
18:04:29 <Ngevd> And upload it at the same time
18:07:03 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
18:07:08 <Ngevd> I am from the REALM OF THE INTERNET
18:07:15 <elliott> monqy: what's a good letter
18:07:32 <Ngevd> WHERE THE BORDER PEOPLE CONFUSE WITH HELL
18:08:39 <Geronim1> i thought this channel is about magic or something
18:08:47 <elliott> Geronim1: So does everyone.
18:08:54 <elliott> Geronim1: freenode is not really about that sort of stuff.
18:09:20 <elliott> We don't really know where to send you guys.
18:09:29 <elliott> * You have been kicked from #magic by ChanServ (Invite only channel)
18:10:02 <Ngevd> It's a pretty good language
18:10:07 <Ngevd> Almost nothing like Java
18:11:15 <Geronim1> i like sun computers because they are so stable
18:11:49 <Geronim1> i think this is something you might find interressting
18:11:52 <Ngevd> As in... you use Solaris?
18:12:16 <Ngevd> I've never tried it
18:12:42 <elliott> Solaris just uses GNOME these days, man.
18:13:17 <Geronim1> it has java desktop environment
18:13:36 <elliott> "java desktop system" is just codename for "GNOME with our programs".
18:13:44 <elliott> Seriously, it doesn't even use Java.
18:13:47 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenSolaris_Desktop
18:13:55 <Ngevd> Just not by default
18:13:55 <Ngevd> No wait, I thought you said developement
18:14:01 <elliott> Oh, it's not even called Java Desktop System nowadays...
18:14:20 <elliott> Geronim1: heh, you must be using a version from 2005...
18:14:32 <Ngevd> This channel destroys all who come to it
18:15:04 <Ngevd> It destroyed my concept of online anonymity
18:15:30 <elliott> monqy won't even give me a letter. :'(
18:15:49 <Ngevd> Since Phantom_Hoover figured out where I live and my full name on my first day here
18:17:17 <elliott> To be fair, you did tell him it was in Northumberland.
18:17:29 <Ngevd> That doesn't narrow it down much!
18:17:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Gimme a letter. A good letter.
18:17:43 <elliott> Ngevd: It does from "anywhere", which is what we would have with e.g. a cloak.
18:17:47 <Ngevd> But I could be in Ashington! or Berwick!
18:17:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: An English letter.
18:18:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You share my love of Q. :')
18:18:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Sorry bro, QHC already exists.
18:18:55 <Ngevd> By a pipe in France.
18:21:29 <elliott> A little nicer, though still not very aesthetically pleasing. (ÆHC? :p)
18:22:24 <Vorpal> oh my, I just watch a video of Skyrim. Those graphics look damn good. And of course the usual TES "That background is not just background actually". Still over a month left...
18:22:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: But dude Ξ is only nice in serif.
18:24:14 <elliott> THC? Tempting, but I think it's taken, and also the reason it's amusing is also the reason everyone will think I'm a pothead if I use it.
18:24:31 <elliott> If only C had a backwards version so I could have a symmetrical name.
18:25:07 <elliott> Not quite symmetrical here. :p
18:25:27 <Vorpal> could be perfect, hard to tell
18:25:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I mean Ɔ isn't quite right here.
18:25:42 <elliott> Presumably it's being substituted from another font.
18:25:55 <Ngevd> It's not a backwards C, it's an open O
18:26:01 <Vorpal> elliott: it looks great here. Could be one or two pixels off, presumably due to front smoothing
18:26:36 <Vorpal> elliott: what is the thing you are naming?
18:27:40 <elliott> Vorpal: I have this horrible temptation to write a Haskell compiler, so...
18:28:25 <elliott> Ngevd: But seriously, no Unicode.
18:28:37 <Vorpal> [102581.454289] max memory size is 0x7fffffff (addr = 0xffff8802c8201000)!!
18:28:37 <Vorpal> [102581.454295] emu: failure page = 32
18:28:47 <Vorpal> sound stopped working and I got that
18:29:06 <elliott> Sounds like a driver problem.
18:29:30 <Vorpal> elliott: yeah probably. It is emu10k1 though
18:29:46 <Vorpal> reloading the module worked
18:30:08 <elliott> Vorpal: That's, like, almost Elliottcraft. :p
18:30:34 <Ngevd> GHC is the Glasgow Haskell Compiler
18:30:37 <Vorpal> in fact i had some problems with that in recent kernels and/or after my mobo upgrade. Impossible to tell witch either. Can't downgrade, computer not supported pre 2.6.29
18:30:42 <Ngevd> Call it the Hexham Haskell Compiler
18:30:49 <Vorpal> elliott: it is elliott haskell compiler
18:30:58 <elliott> Vorpal: Yees but I'm not sure I like it.
18:31:11 <elliott> Ngevd: HHC is kind of ugly, don'tchathink? NHC would be nice but is taken. (i.e. Northumberland)
18:31:38 <Vorpal> elliott: okay, it was just a suggestion. You are of course free to chose another name should you prefer to. However should you like it you can use it.
18:31:42 <Ngevd> Pretend to be in Lowgate; LHC
18:32:33 <Vorpal> can't you go for a different form?
18:32:35 <elliott> And because it's the Standard.
18:32:39 <elliott> I might have it lowercase though.
18:32:44 <Vorpal> elliott: yes I missed the grammar errors of zzo :P
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18:33:01 <Ngevd> Saint Wilfrid Haskell Compiler
18:33:10 <Ngevd> After Hexham's founder
18:33:30 <Vorpal> elliott: EHHC? For your initials
18:33:59 <Vorpal> elliott: or why not ƆHC, sure it might not look good in all fonts, but you can make it look nice in the pre-rendered logo
18:34:22 <Ngevd> What character sets are we limited to?
18:34:35 <Ngevd> Also, I would like to point everyone to ISO 3001
18:34:36 <Vorpal> elliott: write it in erlang, I'm pretty sure that is valid in an erlang atom. Though it might need quoting
18:34:52 <Vorpal> oh seems like it isn't
18:35:43 <Vorpal> 'µHC' valid, but 'ƆHC' is not?
18:36:08 <Vorpal> so not just a paste issue
18:36:16 <Vorpal> elliott: no I meant as erlang atoms
18:36:18 <elliott> Ngevd: I'd prefer an English letter.
18:36:25 <Vorpal> I do not understand how it work wrt unicode atm
18:36:27 <elliott> Vorpal: Maybe Ɔ is capital.
18:36:35 <elliott> In which case it might even be a valid Haskell module name but seriously no.
18:36:38 <Vorpal> elliott: you can use that, I quoted it with '' after all
18:36:55 <Vorpal> wouldn't affect it since quoted
18:37:05 <Vorpal> I think it could be related to pre-unicode erlang
18:37:20 <Vorpal> still a few remaints of that in there
18:37:40 <Vorpal> elliott: anyway do you realize how much work writing a haskell compiler is?
18:37:47 <Vorpal> elliott: as in really?
18:38:28 <Ngevd> ɔ is the lower case form
18:38:30 <elliott> Vorpal: I estimate I know more than you about how much work it is.
18:38:53 <elliott> And that's why it's a horrible urge, but really it's not /that/ hard.
18:39:40 <Vorpal> elliott: sure, writing a fully conforming C++ implementation is probably more work.
18:39:48 <Vorpal> you should do that next
18:40:01 <Vorpal> elliott: even with that weird extern template thingy
18:41:01 <Vorpal> eh wait, not what I meant
18:43:13 <Vorpal> I wonder if I should try out Morrowind hm
18:49:57 <Gregor> lol, bitbucket added Git support.
18:50:05 <Gregor> If github adds hg support, I think I'll switch.
18:51:19 <elliott> Gregor: github advertises hg support, at least.
18:51:27 <elliott> Gregor: They say that hg-git or whatever it is is good enough that it works seamlessly.
18:51:33 <elliott> I don't know how true that is.
18:51:53 <Gregor> But that's not the same.
18:51:56 <Gregor> I want to punish git users.
18:52:01 <elliott> (But seriously, does anyone actually think Bitbucket's interface is better than GitHub's?)
18:52:08 <Gregor> No, it sucks. github rules.
18:52:26 <elliott> Not as good as scapegoat's distributed web interface system ;-)
18:52:36 <elliott> "A big advantage for Bitbucket users is the ability to have unlimited private repositories for free. This means you can store every line of code you’ve ever written in one place without paying a cent."
18:52:45 <elliott> Oh man, free unlimited hosting!!!
19:09:33 <Vorpal> elliott: does github limit your repo count?
19:09:59 -!- sdsdfsdf has joined.
19:10:01 <Vorpal> or does private mean no one else can see it
19:10:30 <Vorpal> elliott: I want svkgit just becase
19:11:17 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott: does github limit your repo count?
19:11:22 <elliott> Vorpal: It's based on total filesize or something.
19:11:26 <elliott> You can't have a private repo unless you pay.
19:11:46 <Vorpal> elliott: but you can upload public code freely?
19:14:44 <fizzie> Yes, but then someone can SEE it.
19:15:28 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
19:15:36 <elliott> Vorpal: No, GitHub is an exclusive pay-only club.
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19:16:24 <fizzie> I vaguely recall some place having a "only 20 free public repositories" rule, but I may have dreamed that.
19:17:10 <olsner> I thought github had unlimited space/repos/forks for open source stuff, because that fits with my vague idea of github being cool
19:17:23 <elliott> 20 repos is not such a draconian limit.
19:17:29 <elliott> I think I've seen people with more. Maybe they paid but I doubt it.
19:17:42 <fizzie> 20 is not bad; but I can't find out which place it was.
19:17:53 <fizzie> So maybe it was an old limitation in one of the places.
19:18:05 <quintopia> elliott: so's i don't have to dig through logs, what was this about: < elliott> calamari: lame, you can't compete with quintopia and me and Gregor's friend
19:18:26 <Gregor> elliott: Yes, I wish to know that too :P
19:19:09 <olsner> huh, my pull request got merged, but github didn't seem to notify me in any way whatsoever
19:19:33 <Gregor> olsner: bitbucket has git support now! BAIL
19:19:46 <elliott> Gregor: He'd have to use Bitbucket then.
19:19:54 <Gregor> Ohhhhhh hahahah (re havenworks)
19:20:21 <quintopia> so calamari was websplatting and thought he could be a contender?
19:20:38 <elliott> I'm going to frag them with my leet websplat gun.
19:20:55 <olsner> aah, I have watched homebrew which gets me too much spam to see anything else in my news feed
19:20:56 <elliott> Gregor: btw the "you're winner" tiling is broken
19:21:06 <elliott> olsner: the homebrew guys are JERKS :''''(
19:21:36 <olsner> but still, it would be cool to have something a *bit* more prominent than having to manually check the news feed for pull requests that I've created myself
19:21:52 <olsner> because that's something I do about once per year otherwise
19:21:57 <Gregor> elliott: Err ... it's not tiled ...
19:22:57 <olsner> elliott: I haven't dealt with them in person, so I wouldn't know
19:23:11 <Gregor> Errr, fairly certain it only was on a lark for like two minutes :P
19:23:20 <elliott> Gregor: Well that's dumb? Fix it, make it tile
19:23:28 <elliott> Nobody wants a win message in a corner
19:23:32 <elliott> I want the world lit up with winning
19:23:54 <Gregor> elliott: I will whenif you implement ZALGO mode.
19:24:06 <olsner> otoh, the ruby and NIH combo that homebrew is made of doesn't speak that well for the project as a whole ... its only feature is its bandwagon basically
19:24:07 <elliott> olsner: I sent them a pull request to add MLton, they rejected it because they wanted me to make it compile from source (despite it being a bootstrapped compiler and so this being literally busywork), I told them that it'd be busywork, they said "SHRUG, this is how we roll"; a few months later they accepted someone else's formula for MLton which ALSO DIDN'T COMPILE IT, but had an additional bug mine didn't.
19:24:11 <elliott> olsner: Therefore I hate them forever.
19:25:05 <Vorpal> well fuck that. I just managed to mess up my postgre db on a update
19:25:18 <Vorpal> *restores from backup*
19:26:16 <olsner> the creation of homebrew: "lol macports, it's in TCL! I'll rewrite it from scratch in rooby and it'll be all better"
19:26:20 <fizzie> I think I just fixed a Pidgin (well, libpurple) bug. I suppose I should report that stuff. But maybe it'll wait until tomorrow.
19:26:46 <elliott> > foldr (\(p:s) (f:fs) -> toLower p : ps ++ toUpper f : fs) "" ["Qwerty", "asdfQ"]
19:26:50 <elliott> > foldr (\(p:ps) (f:fs) -> toLower p : ps ++ toUpper f : fs) "" ["Qwerty", "asdfQ"]
19:26:51 <lambdabot> "*Exception: <interactive>:3:7-56: Non-exhaustive patterns in lambda
19:27:19 <elliott> olsner: Amusingly there was actually something resembling a desire to move MacPorts to Ruby back in the day.
19:27:19 -!- calamari has joined.
19:27:22 <elliott> But seriously, MacPorts is terrible.
19:27:49 <elliott> > foldr (\(p:ps) (f:fs) -> toLower p : ps ++ toUpper f : fs) "augh" ["Qwerty", "asdfQ"]
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19:28:56 <olsner> I really don't get what was so bad about MacPorts
19:29:41 <elliott> olsner: have you ever used it?
19:30:02 <elliott> it's possibly the slowest thing ever, most of the ports were terrible, and variants rarely ever worked
19:30:33 <Vorpal> re havenworks above. That page pretty much crashed my browser back then.
19:31:21 <elliott> You had an awful computer.
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19:34:04 <Ngevd> elliott, has your idle thinking got anywhere?
19:35:06 <sadhu> elliott: are you a college student (becasue i am ;)
19:35:51 <olsner> elliott: macports didn't seem to have much of a community fixing and updating ports, I'll give you that at least :)
19:36:00 <olsner> I've probably just forgotten about the other problems it had
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19:36:20 <Vorpal> olsner: so what is a better alternative than macports for mac?
19:36:44 <olsner> but afaict, they could've just put macports on github, added support for updating from git, renamed it to homebrew and called it a day
19:36:52 <fizzie> Pidgin source-browser tag list, first entry: "ZERO_DOT_FUCKING_SIXTY"
19:36:58 <olsner> and skip all the rooby crap
19:37:03 <elliott> sadhu: Nope. Too young for that shit. :p
19:37:15 <elliott> olsner: That wouldn't solve the other issues I mentioned
19:37:15 <sadhu> so you go to school
19:37:23 <sadhu> because i go there!
19:37:30 <elliott> I'm actually a really advanced IRC bot.
19:37:46 <sadhu> elliott: its nice to talk to you!
19:38:01 <sadhu> you are quite an intelli-bot
19:38:02 <elliott> I am good at my job (being an IRC bot).
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19:38:35 <Ngevd> elliott, I think you have just completely turned the Turing test on its head
19:39:07 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, what's your opinion on fellow bot tiffany352?
19:40:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Is tiffany = tiffany352? A question for our age.
19:40:15 <Vorpal> Ngevd: can you prove it?
19:40:31 <Ngevd> Only if elliott isn't a bot
19:40:37 -!- tiffany has quit (Disconnected by services).
19:40:37 <Vorpal> Ngevd: so you can't then
19:40:43 <Ngevd> So I cannot prove whether I am a bot or not
19:40:46 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover: can you prove you aren't a human?
19:40:47 -!- tiffany352 has changed nick to tiffany.
19:40:48 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: there! there it is!
19:40:59 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover: oh yeah true
19:41:00 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that swor
19:41:06 <fungot> elliott: these unique items make us invincible! as if the king indirectly killed her... such a rock wall, 3 times!
19:43:02 <fizzie> "We prefer patches generated using mtn diff --" gaaa, why does everyone have to use a different version control system? Why can't everyone just use scapeg^Wgit or something?
19:43:32 <Vorpal> fizzie: good luck with THAT
19:43:47 <Vorpal> fizzie: what project is it?
19:43:49 <Ngevd> Just had another idea for an esolang!
19:43:50 <elliott> fizzie: Wow, Pidgin use Monotone?
19:44:00 <elliott> fizzie: "We prefer patches that are the RightThingToDo."
19:44:07 <elliott> fizzie: Is your change the rightthingtodo?
19:44:15 <Ngevd> The hyperstructured programming language
19:44:27 <fizzie> Probably not, but I'll put it into a defect report, not a 'patch' ticket, so it doesn't have to be.
19:44:34 <Vorpal> elliott: rightthingthatwillalreadyhavebeendone
19:44:55 <elliott> fizzie: "or (if you're not using Monotone) diff -u"
19:44:57 <fizzie> They have a database snapshot dump you can wget because otherwise the initial Monotone fetch would take so long.
19:44:58 <elliott> fizzie: See, it's not so bad.
19:45:06 <fizzie> Yes, I cut it for maximum efficiency. :p
19:45:16 <Vorpal> fizzie: is monotone THAT bad?
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19:45:33 <elliott> Vorpal: Pidgin is a pretty big/old project.
19:45:41 <elliott> "Last Modified by rlaager, 4 years ago" --pidgin wiki page "How to Submit a Patch"
19:45:48 <fizzie> Vorpal: Slowness is also it's main feature, I believe. Though maybe it's not so bad; I haven't used it.
19:45:58 <Vorpal> elliott: initial fetch by dump shouldn't be considerably faster than initial download by checkout.
19:46:10 <elliott> Vorpal: Ah, you want a perfect compression system.
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19:46:20 <elliott> Vorpal: Sorry, but multiplication doesn't work that way, and rare is the project with only one revision.
19:46:22 <Vorpal> elliott: no, I said "considerably"
19:46:42 <Vorpal> elliott: besides, why would a dump of the entire history be faster to download than checking out said history
19:46:43 <elliott> Vorpal: Multiplication is quite a quick-growing function.
19:46:47 <Vorpal> it is the same fucking data
19:46:50 <elliott> Vorpal: It isn't a dump of the entire history, you idiot.
19:46:58 <elliott> It'll be some portion of it.
19:47:01 <fizzie> The dump contains all the old revisions, so it's as much data to move; it's just that "initial revision history retrieval is quite taxing on the server".
19:47:01 <Vorpal> elliott: monotone use shallow checkouts?
19:47:09 <elliott> fizzie: Well... that's just stupid then.
19:47:28 <elliott> fizzie: This is why VCSes should just use rsync. :p
19:47:49 <Vorpal> elliott: you mean like cvsup for git
19:48:02 <elliott> Vorpal: No, their "fetch" operations should literally just use rsync.
19:48:08 <fizzie> "mtn merge_into_dir is nearly useless for us, because of die-die-die merge semantics. For example, this is why libgnt cannot conveniently be maintained out-of-tree with an in-tree merge_into_dir copy" I don't even understand what they're talking about.
19:48:15 <Vorpal> elliott: that requires reading locally all the history
19:48:20 <Vorpal> which could be several GB
19:48:28 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm pretty sure rsync is smart about that.
19:48:46 <elliott> Hmm, I might use zsync instead, since it works over HTTP.
19:48:48 <Vorpal> well yes it can use mtime, but then you don't want to bundle things up
19:48:58 <elliott> Although I think zsync is one-file-only. :/
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19:49:24 <elliott> Vorpal: I am saying that "sg fetch" will just do "rsync -z --blah --blah remote-repo/+scapegoat +scapegoat".
19:49:25 <Vorpal> elliott: as in you want to keep many files, not bundling things together in already existing files in the internal data format
19:49:33 <Vorpal> otherwise rsync can't be smart
19:49:44 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm pretty sure rsync hashes /portions/ of the file
19:50:06 <Vorpal> elliott: yes but then it still needs to read those portions to check if the hash matches. Not everyone has a blazing fast SSD
19:50:32 <Vorpal> elliott: with separate files it can be reduced to a simple mtime check on the files
19:51:14 <elliott> It'd also work for sg with only minor modifications.
19:51:16 <Vorpal> I don't know git's internal data format
19:51:28 <elliott> elliott@katia:~/Code/mchost$ ls .git/objects
19:51:28 <elliott> 0a 20 26 2b 4f 55 69 6d 7a 7e 80 8f 92 ab b5 c7 dd f2 pack
19:51:28 <elliott> 0c 25 27 4c 51 58 6c 76 7b 7f 82 90 96 b0 be d2 de info
19:51:35 <Vorpal> well okay, looks like it would work
19:51:37 <elliott> Admittedly "pack" contains packed stuff.
19:51:44 <Vorpal> which would mess this up yeah
19:52:37 <monqy> elliott: i was gone away
19:52:46 <Vorpal> elliott: anyway for a small project this is no major issue. But you want to keep reasonably sized files. Not too large, not too small, and not edit them once created if possible.
19:52:47 <monqy> q is a good letter
19:53:03 <elliott> Vorpal: Anyway, with sg the fetch process looks something like: Get every known object hash from server; remove all hashes in current repository; send the remaining hashes to the server; get a compressed scapegoat database back; decompress, merge into +scapegoat.
19:53:04 <monqy> most letters are good
19:53:15 <elliott> (Merge as in dbmerge, not as in merge merge.)
19:53:28 <Vorpal> elliott: I have used rsync on huge sets of small files, usually means a lot of seeking. For large file on the other hand it needs to read the whole locally and remotely if any part of it changed
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19:54:16 <fizzie> "Usage: sg group [[-c] command]" hey I must have scapegoat already installed, it's not saying "invalid command".
19:54:40 <Vorpal> sg - execute command as different group ID
19:55:07 <Vorpal> so yeah elliott will have to rename
19:55:28 <Vorpal> should break the news to him once he reconnects
19:55:42 <monqy> the joke is that ghostscript
19:55:42 <fizzie> Yes, "gs" is much better. :p
19:56:08 <Vorpal> monqy: why would you have to explain the joke? It was obvious
19:56:23 <monqy> the joke was that i explained the joke :|
19:56:25 <fizzie> "scpgt", to name after bzr, mtn and such.
19:56:50 <monqy> sorry i am bad at jokes
19:56:57 <fizzie> Not cool, not funny, not a good comic.
19:57:08 <fizzie> No command 'sgt' found, did you mean:
19:57:08 <fizzie> Command 'skt' from package 'latex-sanskrit' (main)
19:57:09 <fizzie> Command 'mgt' from package 'mgt' (universe)
19:57:09 <fizzie> Command 'tgt' from package 'tcm' (universe)
19:57:09 <fizzie> Command 'stg' from package 'stgit' (universe)
19:57:09 <fizzie> Command 'st' from package 'swift' (universe)
19:57:11 <fizzie> Command 'st' from package 'suckless-tools' (universe)
19:57:12 <Vorpal> fizzie: faster to type
19:57:13 <fizzie> Command 'sg' from package 'login' (main)
19:57:18 <Vorpal> fizzie: I beat you to that
19:58:05 <fizzie> Yes, by an infinite margin; I wasn't going to suggest it at all.
19:58:59 <fizzie> "skt" seems to be some sort of "pre-processor for typesetting Sanskrit from both Devanagari and transliterated Roman scripts". Quite obscure.
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20:00:31 <elliott> Vorpal: We're well aware of the other sg tool.
20:01:21 <elliott> Also, fizzie is apparently sje46.
20:02:25 <elliott> Vorpal: Anyway, the solution wrt sg is to have Scapegoat act as sg with appropriate arguments. :p
20:02:27 <Vorpal> elliott: so you need to rename it. Since you will collide on virtually every linux system
20:02:43 <Vorpal> elliott: things like debian would rename it. Simple as that
20:02:46 <elliott> There are ways to handle collisions that don't involve terrible command names.
20:03:03 <fizzie> Yes, the "sergeant" tool.
20:03:14 <elliott> And your ridiculous "IT IS ABSOLUTELY IMPERATIVE THAT YOU RENAME IT I GIVE YOU NO CHOICE" attitude to it is annoying.
20:03:30 <elliott> We've already enumerated all the other command names in existence that have some of the letters from "scapegoat" in them.
20:04:55 <elliott> I was into PopCap before they were cool.
20:05:14 <fizzie> Debian would not only rename the binary, it would rename it in some horrible way; that's What They Do. Probably to "scapegoat_sg" or something. (I can't recall what they renamed, but it was something.)
20:05:28 <elliott> fizzie: "ack" to "ack-grep".
20:05:40 <oerjan> <cheater> is there an ML variant with managed memory? <-- there is at least one iirc with something called region inference, but it doesn't work to replace all gc cases
20:06:51 <elliott> fizzie: Anyway, the solution is to have sg print "Please add `alias sg=sg-git` to your shell profile." on startup whenever there's no such alias. :p
20:07:24 <oerjan> because sometimes a value's lifetime simply _is_ unpredicable
20:07:26 <fizzie> Oh, you're going to *ask*. How polite.
20:07:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, how observant.
20:09:16 <oerjan> and use of higher order functions easily makes tracing a value into a spaghetti affair, i think
20:09:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I've been too busy working on mchost.
20:10:09 <fizzie> Spacegoat is the network-operations-optimized-for-latency-of-minutes-or-hours-due-to-light-speed-limits variant of scapegoat, to be used when you need to check out some code from the Mars colony.
20:10:30 <fizzie> (I'm pretty sure we'll have established a Mars colony by the time scapegoat rolls out.)
20:10:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You like pyralspite, don't you?
20:11:07 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, yes but scapegoat appeals to mankind's DEEPER NATURE
20:11:24 <elliott> -- Phantom "What is a VCS how do they work" Hoover
20:12:12 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, it appeals to the ancient question of what a VCS is and how one works.
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20:16:39 <fizzie> <Vorpal> fizzie: well yes. But it faded out in a very meaningful way :P <-- "The sign flicked off again, in a way which Arthur was not at all certain he liked. It flicked off with a sort of contemptuous flourish. Arthur then tried to assure himself that this was just a ridiculous trick of his imagination. A neon sign is either on or off, depending on whether it has electricity running through it or not. There was no way, he told himself, that it could possibl
20:16:39 <fizzie> y effect the transition from one state to the other with a contemptuous flourish."
20:18:49 <elliott> fizzie must have an alias to grep HtwoGtwo.
20:19:16 <elliott> Maybe he has a FUSE filesystem at the end of his PATH that contains all possible file names as a shell script which greps HtwoGtwo for them.
20:19:27 <elliott> So he just types a query at the command-line in quotes and it's grepped for him.
20:21:48 <Vorpal> fizzie: thanks for the HHGT quote
20:22:13 <elliott> Hitchhiker's Guide Tothegalaxy.
20:26:53 <oerjan> `addquote <fizzie> Spacegoat is the network-operations-optimized-for-latency-of-minutes-or-hours-due-to-light-speed-limits variant of scapegoat, to be used when you need to check out some code from the Mars colony. <fizzie> (I'm pretty sure we'll have established a Mars colony by the time scapegoat rolls out.)
20:26:55 <HackEgo> 699) <fizzie> Spacegoat is the network-operations-optimized-for-latency-of-minutes-or-hours-due-to-light-speed-limits variant of scapegoat, to be used when you need to check out some code from the Mars colony. <fizzie> (I'm pretty sure we'll have established a Mars colony by the time scapegoat rolls out.)
20:28:32 <elliott> fizzie: Incidentally, an sg fetch should only require two round-trips.
20:28:34 <elliott> Or three, not sure how you cound.
20:28:42 <elliott> Server to client, client to server, server to client.
20:29:09 <elliott> You could cut that down to "client to server, server to client", but I suspect it'd be a loss in non-Mars situations, since download > upload usually.
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20:33:05 <oerjan> <cheater> how about a language where values adhere to E_8 logic <-- now i'm wondering if this logic is related to the lie group or not
20:33:26 <oerjan> given that you started with mentioning manifolds and stuff
20:34:26 <elliott> Isn't E8 the one that ~surfer dude~ supposedly ~made the Unified Theory~ with for about three days before someone debunked it?
20:35:14 <oerjan> of course cheater may have made up the logic version, at least i cannot find it :P
20:36:24 <oerjan> it wouldn't be immensely surprising if _someone_ had found a way to define a logic from a lie group, though
20:39:01 <elliott> oerjan: btw name my function: f ellipsis n s = if length s > n then take (n - length ellipsis) s ++ ellipsis else s (except implemented much more efficiently)
20:39:27 <oerjan> ok i've tried e-8 + logic, modal logic, paraconsistent logic and topos and neither gave anything obvious
20:40:09 <monqy> parse error on `more'
20:40:17 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: more': not found
20:41:01 <elliott> oerjan....... name........it......
20:41:12 <oerjan> clearly any truly perfect language would allow "(except implemented much more efficiently)" as a pragma, though
20:41:37 <oerjan> why > n rather than >= n
20:42:02 <elliott> oerjan: because if it fits into the length there's no need to ellipsise it?
20:42:14 <elliott> oerjan: it may be wrong anyway
20:42:19 <elliott> not my real implementation
20:42:37 <monqy> that's a good name
20:42:43 <monqy> i messed that up too
20:42:52 <elliott> besides it can take non-ellipses too in theory :P
20:43:09 <oerjan> ellipse is a verb, of course.
20:43:15 <monqy> yes but naming based on specific cases is great!!!
20:43:17 <oerjan> which fits perfectly here.
20:43:57 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wn: not found
20:44:04 <elliott> http://www.google.co.uk/search?gcx=w&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=define%3Aellipse#hl=en&q=ellipse&tbs=dfn:1&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=lx6KTr2vLcmZ8QO9l_RG&ved=0CDEQkQ4&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=d644b56267fbe23f&biw=1440&bih=764
20:44:16 <oerjan> THAT'S BECAUSE I MADE IT UP
20:44:27 <monqy> ellipse(verb) "..." "really long thing gosh" 5 -- nice and small
20:44:30 <oerjan> you poor english who cannot make up new words at a whim
20:44:41 <monqy> was going to switch the 5 and long thing gosh
20:44:42 <elliott> oerjan: how do you say ellipsis in norweigwegna
20:44:50 <monqy> i messed it up againnnnnnnnn
20:46:26 * oerjan confirms with no.wikipedia.org that it's actually used for typography
20:47:30 <fizzie> Heh, the Magic Carpet game (like Descent, and quite a few other games) supported the Forte VFX-1 "virtual reality" helmet, and maybe some others too. It's like the future was already here (in all its headache-inducing flickery glory) in the mid-1990s, and then it just... went away.
20:48:09 <elliott> `addquote <fizzie> [...] It's like the future was already here (in all its headache-inducing flickery glory) in the mid-1990s, and then it just... went away.
20:48:12 <HackEgo> 700) <fizzie> [...] It's like the future was already here (in all its headache-inducing flickery glory) in the mid-1990s, and then it just... went away.
20:49:29 <fizzie> http://www.mindflux.com.au/products/iis/vfx1.html <- just look at that thing, it's so sy-fy.
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20:50:44 <elliott> But is it as REAL as the Virtual Boy?
20:50:44 <elliott> I still hold out hope for true VR one day. ONE DAY.
20:51:19 <oerjan> elliott: "procrustean", yw
20:51:55 <oerjan> the future has zeerusted
20:51:55 <fizzie> oerjan: So 'ellipsis' in Norwegian is called 'procrustean'? I didn't expect that!
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20:52:58 <monqy> http://www.mindflux.com.au/products/iis/cyber.html oh my
20:53:08 <oerjan> also, iirc from tvtropes, one of the "meaning of liff" words
20:53:18 <fizzie> YRC. "Gets its name and definition from The Meaning Of Liff by Douglas Adams and John Lloyd, a book of neologisms* concocted by the two."
20:53:51 <fizzie> What, would "YYD" have been more intuitive?
20:53:53 <zzo38> If there is contrafunctors, but is there such thing as contramonads?
20:53:55 <elliott> monqy: is this site the slowest for you
20:54:08 <oerjan> zzo38: there are comonads
20:54:19 <zzo38> I know there are comonads, but are there contramonads?
20:54:44 <zzo38> Like a monad and comonads are functors, so I mean contramonads, like monads by contrafunctors instead of functors
20:55:22 <oerjan> that's a bit weird, since the co- prefix on monad denodes a kind of dual, which the contra- prefix instead of co- on variant also does
20:55:26 <fizzie> I have here the Finnish translations (if you can call them that) of The Meaning of Liff, and The Deeper Meaning of Liff. It's all redone in Finnish place names and different meanings.
20:56:32 <oerjan> so what is zeerust in finnish, then
20:57:09 <elliott> "Finnish place names and different meanings"
20:57:13 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, but the dual is different. I read that, a dual of a functor is still a functor, but a contravariant functor is different (sometimes called a cofunctor, but it should be called contrafunctor).
20:57:15 <elliott> essentially a different book :P
20:57:51 <fizzie> I don't recall offhand if it has a zeerust equivalent, but I could try to check.
20:58:15 <elliott> augh, chrome's image of a reddit page in my most visited sites thing
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20:58:54 <oerjan> zzo38: hm well a monad is also a functor, what if you require it to be a contravariant one instead, with maybe other adjustments
20:59:28 <oerjan> i don't know if it's a known term, though
20:59:46 <monqy> isn't the functor part of a monad an endofunctor??? notE: i know nothing about category theory (but i want to know / how should i learn it /help)
21:00:02 <oerjan> monqy: yes, and so are all haskell Functors
21:00:03 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes that is what I am asking about.
21:00:23 <oerjan> (capitalization intended)
21:00:40 <monqy> I use the same caps stuff when I remember
21:00:52 <monqy> so what does zzo want
21:02:43 <fizzie> oerjan: I can't find one from the concept index, but the concept index is rather arbitrary, so that's not saying much.
21:02:48 <elliott> class Contrafunctor f where
21:02:48 <elliott> contramap :: (b -> a) -> f a -> f b
21:02:48 <elliott> class (Contrafunctor f) => Contrapplicative f where
21:02:48 <elliott> contraap :: f (b -> a) -> f a -> f b
21:03:00 <elliott> class (Contrapplicative f) => Contramonad f where
21:03:19 <oerjan> elliott: are those defined somewhere?
21:03:19 <monqy> is that you made it up?
21:03:22 <zzo38> I also think I read, all Haskell Functors are strong functors as well.
21:03:29 <elliott> which is relatively standard
21:03:41 <elliott> ?t \m f -> ?cojoin (?contramap f m)
21:03:41 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: tell thank you thanks thx ticker time todo todo-add todo-delete topic-cons topic-init topic-null topic-snoc topic-tail topic-tell type . ? @ ft v
21:03:45 <zzo38> elliott: Yes "contramap" is defined like that in some library I found.
21:03:53 <monqy> kmetts contravariant package only has Contrafucntor (as Contravariant) and some other stuff....
21:03:59 <oerjan> contraap is a cute idea
21:04:01 <elliott> :t \m f -> (?cojoin :: f (f a) -> f a) ((?contramap :: (b -> a) -> f a -> f b) f m)
21:04:02 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (?cojoin::f (f a) -> f a) from the context ()
21:04:02 <lambdabot> arising from a use of implicit parameter `?cojoin'
21:04:19 <monqy> cojoin? duplicate?
21:04:26 <elliott> :t \m f -> (undefined :: f (f a) -> f a) ((undefined :: (b -> a) -> f a -> f b) f m)
21:04:26 <lambdabot> forall (f :: * -> *) a a1. f a1 -> (f a -> a1) -> f a
21:04:37 <zzo38> monqy: For comonads it is duplicate
21:05:00 <elliott> that's quite surprising actually, that result
21:05:06 <elliott> why isn't the result in f too
21:05:15 <elliott> :t \m f -> ((undefined :: (b -> a) -> f a -> f b) f m)
21:05:15 <lambdabot> forall b a (f :: * -> *). f a -> (b -> a) -> f b
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21:06:58 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/contravariant
21:07:11 <elliott> copumpkin: well, zzo38 asked :)
21:07:31 <copumpkin> a contravariant functor is a functor involving opposite categories
21:07:47 <elliott> copumpkin: Shhhhhhhh, zzo38 asked, it must happen
21:07:58 -!- augur has quit (*.net *.split).
21:08:01 * elliott tries going straight from Contrafunctor to Contramonad with no applicative in between
21:08:27 <elliott> contrabind :: m a -> (m b -> m a) -> m b
21:09:01 <monqy> contrabind is weird
21:09:03 <copumpkin> also, you could do it on the generalized monads thing
21:09:13 <monqy> generalize d moands thinge?
21:09:20 <elliott> I don't know why I wanted m in both places :P
21:09:32 <oerjan> copumpkin: but elliott has practically defined already!
21:09:34 <copumpkin> http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~txa/publ/AssistedMonads2.pdf
21:09:53 <zzo38> copumpkin: O, yes, you are correct but there might be possible to do with defining the correct operations, if it can be done.
21:09:53 <olsner> shouldn't it be m a -> (m b -> a) -> m b?
21:10:01 <elliott> olsner: no, m a -> (b -> m a) -> m b
21:10:17 <elliott> oerjan: hm can we define contraap with that contrabind?
21:10:18 <zzo38> copumpkin: I don't know, which is why I asked.
21:10:22 <oerjan> elliott: i think your m a -> (m b -> a) -> m b was fairly logical, really
21:10:26 <copumpkin> look at those relative monads I mentioned
21:10:34 <copumpkin> they're sort of a "monad-like thing" that works for non-endofunctors
21:10:41 <copumpkin> and a contravariant functor is a non-endofunctor
21:10:42 <elliott> oerjan: yes it makes more sense than this :P
21:10:53 <copumpkin> so you might be able to apply those to give you something resembling what you want
21:11:03 <elliott> data F a b = F { unF :: b -> a }
21:11:04 <elliott> instance Contrafunctor ((->) a) where
21:11:04 <elliott> contramap f (F g) = F (f . g)
21:11:05 <copumpkin> there was an earlier paper that didn't use agda
21:11:06 <elliott> huh, why doesn't that work...
21:11:33 <oerjan> elliott: what was comonad cobind again
21:11:45 <elliott> oerjan: w a -> (w a -> b) -> w b I think
21:12:00 <monqy> extend has the arguments flipped but yes
21:12:06 <elliott> contrapure :: a -> F b a === a -> (a -> b)
21:12:28 <elliott> someone suggest another type to become a contramonad :P
21:12:30 <oerjan> elliott: ok, in that case i suspect that one of m a -> (b -> m a) -> m b and m a -> (m b -> a) -> m b is a contramonad, and the other is a contra_co_monad
21:12:57 <pikhq_> http://i.imgur.com/QbPdR.jpg Is that really the example you want to go with?
21:12:58 <elliott> no but seriously someone suggest another possible contramonad :P
21:13:04 <zzo38> Yes I did think of contracomonad too.
21:13:27 <elliott> oerjan: hmm is contrapure right
21:14:02 <fizzie> oerjan: Ooh, zeerust *is* in the second book. It's "fuurtti" in Finnish. And that place is *really* obscure, it's not even known by Google Maps, and about the only hits are a weather forecast there, and some sort of a "nature-related locations" zoning map for the nearby muncipality (of less than 2000 inhabitants); it's here, anyway: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=61.514509,26.298437&spn=0.039912,0.082226&z=14
21:14:41 <pikhq_> And yes, the definitions given are entirely accurate.
21:15:15 <elliott> oerjan: insufficient lack of suggestions for other possible contramonads :P
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21:15:27 <elliott> s/insufficient/oversufficient/
21:15:58 <elliott> oerjan: hmm, is (Kleisli a) a monad?
21:16:06 <elliott> maybe (Contrakleisli a) is a contramonad
21:17:01 <oerjan> i have no idea any more :P
21:17:31 <oerjan> `run echo fuurtti | tr a-z n-za-m
21:17:48 <oerjan> `run echo zeerust | tr a-z n-za-m
21:18:02 <elliott> (b -> a) -> (m r -> a) -> (m r -> b)
21:19:23 <Ngevd> elliott, given any more idle thought returning fruitfulness?
21:19:39 <elliott> Ngevd: i suspect it is a trivial modification of feather in some ways :P
21:19:53 <monqy> did someone say feather
21:20:05 <oerjan> idea: time-reversed feather
21:20:26 <Ngevd> In Brook, as I call it, a self-interpreter is AS EASY AS A CAT PROGRAM
21:21:15 <Ngevd> Only in an unsaved text file on my laptop
21:21:38 <Ngevd> And in elliott's mind, but in a significantly different form
21:21:41 <Ngevd> Possibly with a different name
21:22:27 <Ngevd> And I will go to bed now
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21:24:26 <zzo38> Functor has (a -> b) -> f a -> f b what is (f a -> f b) -> a -> b ? Is there even such things?
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21:28:56 <monqy> z is good if you cross it
21:29:08 <oerjan> elliott: how should i know
21:29:22 <monqy> ZHC is a test held by the Ministry of Human Resources and Social Security of the People's Republic of China to test the Mandarin Chinese ability of Chinese citizens.
21:30:11 <oerjan> well then you cannot use it. clearly
21:30:51 <elliott> oerjan: lets try...atnother letter
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21:32:44 <elliott> im thinking qhc at this point
21:34:56 <elliott> oerjan: do you approve of...qhc.....
21:35:12 <zzo38> What are you trying to do? Invent a Haskell compiler?
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21:36:16 <elliott> i dont think it will have mor enotation
21:36:44 <zzo38> What will it have? Macros?
21:38:09 <zzo38> It should have macros that can be used to make up do-notation, list notation, Num class literals, these like Haskell already has; and more-notation as well.
21:38:28 <elliott> i think i will start with haskell 2010... and go from there.....
21:39:00 <zzo38> Which means that do notation and list notation would be Prelude macros.
21:39:51 <oerjan> <elliott> * You have been kicked from #magic by ChanServ (Invite only channel) <-- well if it was real, you'd have been turned into a newt. hm, maybe you should check that.
21:39:52 <zzo38> And have "deriving" actually being Template Haskell, where the standard deriving stuff is defined in Prelude.
21:40:01 <elliott> oerjan: i have always been a newt.............
21:40:04 <copumpkin> people really don't like template haskell
21:40:10 <copumpkin> I doubt they'll want to increase its scope
21:40:22 <elliott> I dunno, deriving by TH seems sane to me
21:40:24 <elliott> but yeah, I don't like TH :(
21:40:26 <zzo38> copumpkin: Why? I think Template Haskell is OK.
21:40:27 <elliott> I wish I could avoid it in my code
21:40:37 <elliott> but I can't figure out how to excise it from mchost
21:41:22 <zzo38> Of course if it can be deriving by TH but they are defined in the Prelude, your program doesn't need TH, if the Prelude has TH that is enough to use the deriving mechanism.
21:41:56 <copumpkin> zzo38: SPJ's (and many others) main issues with it are outlined at http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/blog/Template%20Haskell%20Proposal
21:44:23 <elliott> copumpkin: oh man, i could replace TH in my current project with cpp x-macros
21:45:46 <zzo38> I think C preprocessor is no good for Haskell
21:46:08 <oerjan> <elliott> A little nicer, though still not very aesthetically pleasing. (ÆHC? :p) <-- i've always felt Æ is the least esthetic norwegian letter
21:46:26 <elliott> oerjan: "esthetic" is an abominable spelling imho. :(
21:46:33 <elliott> it's the common american spelling
21:46:59 <elliott> Well that's a hideous word :P
21:47:39 <zzo38> I do agree with some of the things in Template Haskell Proposal.
21:48:13 <zzo38> But I also want to add a macro system that is run in the parser.
21:48:52 <zzo38> As well as in the lexer.
21:48:54 <monqy> "esthetic" is the common american spelling?
21:48:59 <monqy> I've only ever seen aesthetic
21:49:38 <elliott> well american tendency is ae → e
21:49:48 <elliott> it may be true that the kind of people who use the word "aesthetic" tend to be the kind of people who use "ae", though
21:50:06 <elliott> (I've seen aesthetic more often too)
21:50:29 <zzo38> But I agree that [| "hello" && True |] ought to be acceptable (even though $([| "hello" && True |]) should still be error)
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