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00:16:10 <zzo38> As far as I can tell a graph can form a category, where the objects correspond to the points and the morphisms correspond to the paths between the points, where if you go along a line backward it is cancelled out. At least they seem to me, like forming a category.
00:16:23 <zzo38> I am not exactly sure.
00:20:38 <elliott> <Pseudonym> The first cut of the Mercury compiler was written in the intersection of Mercury, NU-Prolog and SICStus Prolog.
00:20:38 <elliott> <Pseudonym> And it compiled to Goedel.
00:20:39 <oerjan> zzo38: except for the cancelling out part
00:21:03 <oerjan> assuming it's directed.
00:21:20 <oerjan> i guess the cancelling out can work.
00:23:09 <zzo38> I was thinking of nondirected graphs, where each pair of points either has a line between them or does not have. But you could have a similar (but different) idea for directed graphs too, I suppose, and pseudographs, etc
00:23:21 <zzo38> I don't really know, I just guessed
00:25:14 <oerjan> zzo38: with the cancelling, it would be close to a fundamental path in homotopy theory
00:25:55 <zzo38> But does it form a category?
00:25:59 <elliott> oerjan: I'm convinced homotopy theory is just one big practical joke by the mathematicians once they realised that category theory actually has applications.
00:26:18 <zzo38> It seem to me, it does have associativity, identity morphism, and so on, like category theory.
00:39:51 <elliott> { conn?????? :: Chan ServerPacket
00:39:51 <elliott> , connReader :: PacketReader ClientPacket
00:39:59 <elliott> Help what should I name the Chan containing the packets to send to the client.
00:40:02 <zzo38> I looked at the Wikipedia article about Kleisli category. It says how composition of morphisms in the Kleisli category is given by. I tried putting the same thing they specify there into Haskell it seem to me it would be this: g <=< f = join . fmap g . f
00:40:44 <elliott> oerjan: but... there is other content too (the PacketReader)...
00:41:00 <zzo38> elliott: Well, conn?????? is not a very good name for it because it mixes letters with symbols.
00:41:04 <elliott> it isn't really a payload if you send a bunch of them is it
00:41:35 <elliott> oerjan: <elliott> , connReader :: PacketReader ClientPacket
00:41:42 <elliott> this is just the write end
00:42:06 <elliott> maybe........................ i was thinking that but
00:42:12 <elliott> is it a writER if it's just a Chan....
00:42:39 <elliott> hmm maybe............... that sounds good........
00:43:24 <oerjan> zzo38: that looks right for <=<
00:43:42 <oerjan> join . fmap g = (g =<<)
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00:46:10 <zzo38> oerjan: OK. I just tried to write the same thing as in that Wikipedia article, but in Haskell. That is, this: $g\circ_T f = \mu_Z \circ Tg \circ f$ is what I tried to make into a Haskell code.
00:59:22 <oerjan> today's iwc feels a bit deus ex machina.
00:59:40 <oerjan> or something like that.
01:00:51 <elliott> oerjan: looks intentional to me :P
01:02:04 <oerjan> maybe, but it feels like bad writing.
01:02:25 <oerjan> or maybe it's an intentional parody on forced happy endings
01:02:28 <elliott> oerjan: I mean, it's obviously meant to look ridiculous, so I suspect it's a setup for expectations being violated
01:03:00 <oerjan> in fact that's been kind of a common theme lately, hasn't it.
01:04:14 <oerjan> maybe it's part of dmm's quest to use every trope :P
01:04:25 <oerjan> (not that that is official)
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01:27:26 <oerjan> :t Control.Concurrent.forkIO
01:27:49 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) a b. (Monad m) => m a -> m b
01:28:19 <lambdabot> forall a (f :: * -> *). (Functor f) => f (forall s. ST s a) -> f a
01:28:34 <lambdabot> forall a a1. (a1 -> forall s. ST s a) -> a1 -> a
01:29:02 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `forall s. ST s a'
01:29:02 <lambdabot> Expected type: m a1 -> forall s. ST s a
01:29:15 <elliott> :t (runST . forever) (return ())
01:29:16 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `forall s. ST s a'
01:29:16 <lambdabot> Expected type: m a1 -> forall s. ST s a
01:29:29 <elliott> :t (runST . forever) $ return ()
01:29:30 <lambdabot> Inferred type is less polymorphic than expected
01:29:30 <lambdabot> Quantified type variable `s' escapes
01:29:31 <lambdabot> In the second argument of `(.)', namely `forever'
01:29:34 <elliott> :t runST . forever $ return ()
01:29:34 <lambdabot> Inferred type is less polymorphic than expected
01:29:35 <lambdabot> Quantified type variable `s' escapes
01:29:35 <lambdabot> In the second argument of `(.)', namely `forever'
01:29:46 <elliott> only shachaf has the true knowledge
01:29:58 <oerjan> :t runST $ forever $ return ()
01:30:20 <oerjan> it's a scandal you cannot use . there
01:30:27 <elliott> oerjan: no, shachaf has an example that works with ()s but not without
01:30:33 <elliott> /without/ operator precedence being involved
01:30:53 <monqy> hm, this spambot seems to be having problems with the beginnings of its sentences.
01:31:23 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `forall s. ST s a'
01:31:24 <lambdabot> Expected type: a1 -> forall s. ST s a
01:31:51 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `m t'
01:31:51 <lambdabot> against inferred type `forall s....
01:32:08 <shachaf> It was something with actual parentheses making a difference and nothing else.
01:32:26 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `m t'
01:32:26 <lambdabot> against inferred type `forall s....
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01:34:03 <elliott> shachaf: is that bug a ticket yet? :P
01:34:41 <monqy> is it always broken now
01:35:07 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `forall s. ST s a'
01:35:07 <lambdabot> Expected type: [a1] -> forall s. ST s a
01:35:23 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `forall s. ST s a'
01:35:24 <lambdabot> Expected type: (a1 -> m b) -> forall s. ST s a
01:35:47 <shachaf> monqy: Well, it's a hack either way.
01:35:56 <elliott> <byorgey> shachaf: ah yes, you find runST's dirty little secret special case in the type checker
01:35:57 <elliott> <byorgey> shachaf: it should be. But there's some sort of special case for runST so that runST $ foo works
01:37:02 <elliott> * Now talking on #firstworldproblems
01:37:02 <elliott> * #firstworldproblems :You're not a channel operator
01:37:02 <monqy> i wish rank>1types werent bad like this
01:37:04 <elliott> * Users on #firstworldproblems: elliott @ChanServ
01:37:12 <elliott> monqy: well it's still a bug :P
01:37:18 <elliott> that parens can have an affect
01:37:43 <monqy> does jhc have rank>1type sdoes jhc have thes probmesl
01:37:49 <monqy> what abhout qhc....
01:37:54 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `m t'
01:37:55 <lambdabot> against inferred type `forall s....
01:38:09 <shachaf> > (id `asTypeOf` ($)) runST foo
01:38:10 <lambdabot> Cannot match a monotype with `forall s. GHC.ST.ST s a'
01:38:38 <shachaf> > let blah = (id `asTypeOf` ($)) in blah runST foo
01:39:02 <shachaf> > ((id `asTypeOf` ($)) runST) foo
01:39:03 <lambdabot> Cannot match a monotype with `forall s. GHC.ST.ST s a'
01:39:28 <shachaf> monqy: To encourage you to write code that looks like LISP.
01:39:33 <shachaf> More parentheses = better life.
01:39:51 <oerjan> because infering rank>1 types is undecidable, i assume
01:40:17 <oerjan> so in some way, every case which works is a hack
01:40:29 <monqy> shachaf: but but but....using $ fixed it when parens didn't....and i prefer parens....
01:40:44 <shachaf> monqy: When did parentheses not fix it?
01:41:50 <monqy> it's weird because of precedence and $ being infix
01:41:54 <oerjan> > (id runST :: forall s. GHC.ST.ST s a -> a) foo
01:41:55 <lambdabot> Not in scope: type constructor or class `GHC.ST.ST'Not in scope: type varia...
01:42:04 <oerjan> > (id runST :: forall s. ST s a -> a) foo
01:42:04 <lambdabot> Not in scope: type variable `a'Not in scope: type variable `a'
01:42:27 <oerjan> > (id runST :: forall a. (forall s. ST s a) -> a) foo
01:43:17 <shachaf> elliott: Hey, write me a generic function f x y = f (x y), please.
01:43:25 * shachaf will complain loudly until someone does this.
01:44:10 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a = [a]
01:45:55 <monqy> if only: untyped haskell: because: types cause problemns
01:46:37 <shachaf> > let f :: forall s a. (forall t. t -> s t) -> a -> s (s a); f x y = x (x y) in f Just 5
01:46:59 <shachaf> > let f :: forall s a. (forall t. s t -> t) -> s (s a) -> a; f x y = x (x y) in f fromJust (Just (Just 5))
01:47:47 <monqy> iw ant to make a language that doesn't have probelms....hoW?
01:51:40 <elliott> oerjan: my thoughts exactly
01:51:43 <elliott> oerjan: confrontational as usual :P
01:51:47 <elliott> although his complaint has merit >_>
01:52:24 <oerjan> monqy: i recommend hq9+ or deadfish, they are remarkably problem free
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02:17:54 <zzo38> Will infinite types result in Russell's paradox?
02:20:44 <Gregor> OK, here's a big lol for y'all.
02:20:46 <Gregor> So I mentioned earlier that I got an email asking if I wanted codu.net for $250.
02:20:52 <Gregor> Turns out the company that owns it is an "IT solutions / apostolic ministry"
02:23:40 <shachaf> Curry's paradox is the best paradox.
02:24:00 <monqy> how about codu.com
02:24:12 <Gregor> monqy: Donno who owns that, don't really care *shrugs*
02:24:36 <monqy> codu.com seems pretty sketchy
02:24:40 <coppro> shachaf: my favority paradox is out in a lake in BC
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02:32:29 <elliott> localhost:47150 > KeepAlive 0
02:32:29 <elliott> localhost:47150 > KeepAlive 0
02:32:30 <elliott> localhost:47150 > KeepAlive 0
02:32:30 <elliott> localhost:47150 > KeepAlive 0
02:32:30 <elliott> localhost:47150 > KeepAlive 0
02:32:30 <elliott> localhost:47150 > KeepAlive 0
02:32:32 <elliott> localhost:47150 > KeepAlive 0
02:32:34 <elliott> localhost:47150 > KeepAlive 0
02:32:36 <elliott> localhost:47150 > KeepAlive 0
02:32:38 <elliott> localhost:47150 > KeepAlive 0
02:32:40 <elliott> localhost:47150 > KeepAlive 0
02:32:42 <elliott> localhost:47150 > KeepAlive 0
02:32:44 <elliott> localhost:47150 > KeepAlive 0
02:32:46 <elliott> localhost:47150 > KeepAlive 0
02:32:48 <elliott> localhost:47150l o>c aKleheopsAtl:i4v7e1 500
02:32:50 <elliott> <l oPclaalyheorsPto:s4i7t1i5o0n L>o oKke e(pPAllaiyveer P0o
02:32:52 <elliott> s l(oPcoailnhto s0t.:04 76195.09 9>9 9K9e9e9p9A5l2i3v1e6 30
02:32:54 <elliott> 0.l0o)c a7l1h.o6s2t): 4(7D1i5r0e c>t iKoene p0A.l0i v0e. 00)
02:33:14 * oerjan cancels his /^msg chanserv quiet #esoteric elliott just in time
02:33:58 <elliott> I typed out "KeepAlive", decided to start fleshing it into a joke by prepending "Your MOM", and then stared wide-eyed at my screen for a few seconds before deleting the line.
02:34:10 * Gregor vaguely wonders what "/^msg" is
02:34:26 <oerjan> Gregor: like /msg except doesn't open a query window
02:35:45 <zzo38> If you make a category from a graph as I have described, what things in category theory correspond to what things in graph theory?
02:37:05 <oerjan> zzo38: well every morphism is an isomorphism
02:37:40 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes I noticed the same thing.
02:40:34 <oerjan> making this a "groupoid" (although i think that word has several senses)
02:41:45 <oerjan> and if the graph is connected, there is a functor equivalence mapping all the objects into one
02:42:30 <oerjan> or if not, you can select one object from each component to map everything to.
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02:46:45 <zzo38> If the graph is a tree, does the category have all endomorphisms being identity morphisms, due to canceling?
02:47:39 <zzo38> Yes, I was just going to say, it applies to forests too
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02:52:35 <zzo38> Are there other properties?
02:53:36 <oerjan> well unless it is a tree, there won't be any initial or terminal objects
02:53:48 <oerjan> and if it is, they all are
02:54:51 <oerjan> oh and the category is isomorphic to its own dual, but that follows from being a groupoid i think
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02:57:33 <zzo38> Probably when I wrote "path" I meant "walk"
03:12:39 <CakeProphet> I like the pirate bay's current home page logo.
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03:15:08 <elliott> Why are you using the Pirate Bay, it is the most useless torrent index
03:18:25 <CakeProphet> elliott: I very frequently find more obscure artists on TPB when things like isohunt fail.
03:19:02 <elliott> metatracker which lists all the found trackers for a torrent in utorrent format so you can paste it in for moar speed
03:19:07 <elliott> (it helps massively in my experience)
03:20:00 <tiffany> I use tokyotosho for anime, and then isohunt, tpb, and demonoid for everything else
03:20:51 <elliott> There is no possible way that searching a public tracker can be superior to using Torrentz because it indexes tons of them.
03:20:57 <Gregor> Fuckin' piracy. How does it work?
03:21:01 <elliott> Hmm, looks like it doesn't index isohunt, wonder if there's some drama to do with that.
03:21:19 <elliott> But w/e, if you can't find it on the public trackers torrentz indexed you're probably best served going to a private one anyway :P
03:21:23 <tiffany> If piracy was enforced as harshly as denial of service attacks, 9% of americans would be in jail probably ;P
03:21:25 <elliott> monqy: Gregor: Nooo, this is how I get my Linux ISOs.
03:21:43 <Jafet> Gotta catch all 'em Linux ISOs.
03:21:49 <monqy> pirate linux all day every day
03:22:06 <tiffany> You cant pirate free stuff can you?
03:22:17 <zzo38> O, is that how you define piracy now?
03:22:22 * CakeProphet will, in the course of one hour, find torrents for the entire discographies of over 35 artists
03:22:36 <pikhq_> tiffany: I know this is probably a long-shot, but would tokyotosho happen to have anime with Japanese subtitles?
03:22:37 <Jafet> I distribute linux without the source code. I am wanted in four continents.
03:22:43 <tiffany> Bittorrent is like the greatest doenload protocol ever, pretty obvious to use for pirates~
03:23:03 <Jafet> Anime with Japanese subtitles?
03:23:03 <pikhq_> It is *far* too hard to find that sort of thing, even if you go totally legit and buy Japanese DVDs.
03:23:14 <pikhq_> Jafet: And Japanese audio, of course.
03:23:44 <CakeProphet> tiffany: telnet is the best protocol for all purposes.
03:23:53 <elliott> Jafet: I'm wanted in ten continents.
03:23:56 <Jafet> Not many people care about subtitles in the same language as the film.
03:24:04 <elliott> how can you even say telnet in any tone of voice other than normal
03:24:11 <elliott> there is no possible way to impart any other kind of context onto the utterance "telnet"
03:24:17 <zzo38> Which protocol is best for one purpose depend on the purpose. No protocol is really best for all purposes
03:24:18 <tiffany> <elliott> <tiffany> telnet~
03:24:26 <monqy> how did i know that was going to happen
03:24:26 <elliott> "telnet" as a statement means one thing and one thing only and you cannot modify that auuuugh
03:24:29 <pikhq_> Jafet: It's really *quite* helpful for foreign language learners.
03:24:31 <monqy> someone quoting elliott quoting tiffany
03:24:31 <Jafet> tiffany is channelling the telnetcat
03:24:48 <pikhq_> Particularly when learning a language with nontrivial orthography.
03:24:50 <zzo38> Telnet is good for many purpose, though.
03:25:08 <tiffany> Like tuning engines on a flying 747?
03:25:34 <tiffany> Because, you can actually do that >_>;
03:26:02 <zzo38> I don't know anything about tuning engines on a flying 747
03:26:40 <tiffany> I read this article from an engineer who worked on that kind of stuff
03:26:43 <CakeProphet> zzo38: telnet is more or less a protocol for protocols.
03:27:05 <Jafet> Most people who use telnet don't use telnet.
03:27:07 <tiffany> He said 747s use telnet because ssh breaks the menu thingies in the telnet interface
03:27:26 <tiffany> Anyway i host a bbs over telnet
03:27:40 <zzo38> SSH is also good protocol for many purposes (but not all).
03:27:44 <zzo38> tiffany: Is it Synchronet?
03:27:54 <CakeProphet> zzo38: telnet, on the other hand, is suitable for all
03:28:11 <monqy> telnet for president
03:28:21 <tiffany> Also i have an 8192bit rsa key for ssh
03:28:31 <zzo38> CakeProphet: No, I don't think telnet is suitable for all.
03:28:57 <tiffany> It only took a couple minuts to generate so why not
03:29:06 <Jafet> I would use an 8192-bit key, too, if I was tuning engines on flying 747s.
03:29:44 <tiffany> I would use a 32768bit key for that
03:30:02 <zzo38> For internet banking and internet money transfer, SSH is the protocol that ought to be used (and the protocol running inside the SSH would be the same in both cases, although some commands might be permitted in only one way and not another way), in my opinion.
03:30:29 <Jafet> Internet banking currently runs on the honour system
03:30:31 <tiffany> Even if 1024bit still takes a fudgeload of time to crack
03:30:49 <tiffany> Didnt it take like 300 computers 400 days to crack one?
03:31:48 <tiffany> Rsa is pretty much dead with quantum computers though :/
03:32:33 <elliott> How much are D-Wave paying you?
03:32:37 <monqy> we live in the future, tiffany and me
03:32:52 <monqy> whats an english and how does it work?
03:33:09 <Jafet> monqy: it only throws you exceptions
03:34:00 <HackEgo> Unknown symbol "fudgeload" \ Warning: undefined symbol "erlang". \ Warning: undefined symbol "fudgeload". \ Unconvertable expression: \ erlang (undefined symbol) -> fudgeload (undefined symbol)
03:34:16 <tiffany> It seems like mceliece is bad in the face of bruteforce or i am reading this wikipedia article wrong
03:34:32 <tiffany> 260000bit key is only as good as 80bit encryption?
03:37:27 <monqy> what did monqy do again
03:37:49 <monqy> was it just map toLower and remove all punctuation or something?
03:37:51 <HackEgo> Warning: undefined symbol "erlang". \ 9 erlang (undefined symbol)
03:37:57 <monqy> such an inaccurate representation of me
03:38:15 <CakeProphet> l;le;ler;le;lr;e;ler;ler;le;lerr;le;le;erle;e;rler;lere;er;lerrelrrerererlanggt
03:38:22 <elliott> `addquote <CakeProphet> l;le;ler;le;lr;e;ler;ler;le;lerr;le;le;erle;e;rler;lere;er;lerrelrrerererlanggt
03:38:24 <HackEgo> 703) <CakeProphet> l;le;ler;le;lr;e;ler;ler;le;lerr;le;le;erle;e;rler;lere;er;lerrelrrerererlanggt
03:38:27 <monqy> neesd to transpose letters, insert es ant the ends of things, otherr quirdks????
03:38:39 <monqy> simulated keybarod badding
03:38:47 <monqy> simulated word badding
03:39:00 <zzo38> However, if I designed a BIOS for a PC motherboard, it would be PC-FORTH and one of the things it would include is a terminal emulator (with the PC BIOS emulation as the default), which can be used with telnet and with serial port
03:39:02 <tiffany> http://gopherproxy.org/zzo38computer.cjb.net/0column80*c131_115
03:39:03 <elliott> http://googleads.g.doubleclick.net/pagead/imgad?id=CJvR5I68-qvvUhDQAhiYAjIIAD54C6Z-Wvk
03:39:03 <elliott> auuugh return of the finger tree
03:40:11 <zzo38> I intended to block gopherproxy.org so that Google does not index it.
03:40:15 <monqy> I love those awful ads
03:41:27 <elliott> monqy: oh did you never see my finger tree
03:41:32 <elliott> not as disturbing as that but
03:41:37 <Jafet> elliott: http://adrinael.net/hr.gif
03:41:39 <monqy> now i want to see it
03:42:23 <elliott> how have you not seen the hasselhoff thing, it's the oldest thing on the internet
03:42:27 <elliott> disappointed in you monqy, disappointed
03:42:37 <monqy> elliott i've seen it but that doesn't make it not gross....
03:43:11 <zzo38> If you need to link to my gopher server, please do so directly.
03:43:56 <elliott> monqy should I use Map or HashMap................................................................
03:45:48 <elliott> actually hmm i might want some way to reclaim old identifiers
03:46:00 <elliott> what has fast minKey.......
03:46:18 <elliott> the answer is IntMap but I have Int32s :(
03:48:41 <zzo38> I figured out why the block that used to work has failed; it is because spoton.net has many IP addresses in different ranges. (It used to be bytemark3.spotonnet.co.uk and is now on bytemark7.spotonnet.co.uk, which have the addresses 89.16.178.179 and 46.43.34.25)
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03:50:57 <elliott> monqy: my favourite terrible ad of late is these "51 Year Old Mom Looks 25" ones with a bouncing picture above
03:51:33 <monqy> i dont see enough terrible ads because ad blocker ;_;
03:51:44 <elliott> disable it, it is the devil
03:52:05 <elliott> I bet Jafet knows a good IntMap type thing that works for arbitrary key types and has efficient-ish minKey.
03:52:06 <monqy> i also love the ones where it's like "is this real or fake" or "iq test" and "99% get this wrong"
03:52:17 <elliott> (Hmm, I think Data.Map has pretty efficient minKey, isn't it O(log n)?)
03:52:45 <monqy> and it's something absolutely ridiculous like a seagull with a human arm
03:52:48 <elliott> monqy: my favourite was "HAS SCIENCE GONE TOO FAR? real / fake" -- yeah
03:52:52 <elliott> with 99 percent get this wrong
03:53:00 <CakeProphet> elliott: I can't think of a way it wouldn't be O(log(n))
03:53:01 <monqy> ah yes has science gone too far that's it
03:53:04 <monqy> i love birds with arms
03:53:12 <monqy> also great: dancing babies
03:53:12 <elliott> CakeProphet: intmap has constant-time minKey I think
03:53:17 <elliott> and hashmap obviously O(n)
03:54:33 <CakeProphet> well you could have constant time minKey by keping track of the minimum key as an extra field of the data structure or something.
03:54:57 <elliott> the tree structure makes it possible
03:55:02 <elliott> you can amortise it on insert which is already O(log(n))
03:55:13 <elliott> yes, I think you can tell when you're inserting before the minimum key
03:56:15 <CakeProphet> I think in practice lists shouldn't have O(n) length.
03:56:22 <CakeProphet> GHC should just use a hidden field for length.
03:57:35 <monqy> _someone_ doesn't understand elegance, likes perl, is a bad person
03:57:51 <CakeProphet> of course a change of data structure would suffice. linked list is probably not what you want in this scenario.
03:57:56 <Jafet> I think in practice you shouldn't be using lists if you use length
03:58:04 <Jafet> Sequence has O(1) length
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03:58:16 <elliott> CakeProphet: I think that breaks sharing
03:58:40 <Jafet> More pertinently, that breaks non-strictness
03:58:46 <Jafet> Sharing is unaffected
03:59:26 <CakeProphet> but yeah I don't really know much about sharing.
04:00:15 <CakeProphet> monqy: I understand elegance just fine, but... don't see why you would prefer elegance to efficiency when implementing data structures that other people are going to use.
04:00:34 <monqy> then you don't understand elegance
04:00:53 <CakeProphet> but I see that length being O(1) on linked lists would have some issues.
04:01:22 <CakeProphet> but as far as I care a data structure could have an ugly implementation as long as it's efficient.
04:01:43 <monqy> I think Jafet sums it up nicely
04:01:44 <monqy> 20:57:59 < Jafet> I think in practice you shouldn't be using lists if you use length
04:05:24 <shachaf> elliott: Remember that Gobby Haskell Arc implementation session thing?
04:05:37 <coppro> apparently yesterday's xkcd was Randall's first animated gif
04:05:57 <monqy> gobby haskell arc implementation session? arc as in the lisp or what
04:05:58 <elliott> shachaf: I think I started doing my own thing before that, and then gave up in disgust when the hoi polloi ruined it with their "collaboration" bullshit.
04:06:24 <elliott> coppro: I heard it wasn't.
04:06:38 <coppro> elliott: I heard this from Randall
04:06:43 <coppro> apparently it was the first animated gif he made ever
04:06:58 <shachaf> coppro: You mean the one on xkcd.com?
04:07:09 <shachaf> That is a bad animated GIF!
04:07:14 <elliott> shachaf: No, he means the one on secretanimatedgifs.xkcd.com.
04:07:21 <shachaf> It depends on the fact that browsers violate the GIF spec for historical reasons!
04:07:24 <elliott> DON'T TELL A SINGLE PERSON.
04:07:30 <shachaf> elliott: There exist many Randalls in the world.
04:07:39 <elliott> shachaf: How many of them make xkcds?
04:07:55 <shachaf> elliott: I didn't see anyone mention "xkcd" until I did.
04:08:00 <elliott> <coppro> apparently yesterday's xkcd was Randall's first animated gif
04:08:12 <shachaf> elliott: Well, I didn't see it.
04:08:22 <elliott> shachaf: Also, what's a map structure with fast minKey (O(log n) at least) that isn't Map or IntMap?
04:08:32 <elliott> hmm, I don't even want minKey
04:08:36 <elliott> I want minimumUnusedKey :P
04:08:38 <shachaf> Anyway, he has the frame delay between the frames set to 1. 1!
04:08:58 <shachaf> He's relying on and old broken behavior of Netscape 4 on old computers that every browser ever has had to replicate.
04:09:13 <shachaf> He should've left it at 0.
04:09:49 <shachaf> elliott: Also, why ask me in here?
04:10:00 <elliott> That other channel is so, like, big.
04:10:38 * shachaf wrote an animated GIF player that's too unbroken for that comic.
04:10:55 <elliott> So unbroken it doesn't work.
04:11:24 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
04:11:47 <shachaf> Ata hafachta ve'ani hafachti uvechol zot ze nish'ar hafuch!
04:12:56 <elliott> Oh no, the Wayback Machine is going to be down for three days.
04:13:09 <shachaf> elliott: You're the one who doesn't speak the right language.
04:13:47 <elliott> shachaf: At least I'm not a Finnish citizen.
04:14:33 * shachaf doesn't even speak Finnish.
04:14:34 <elliott> shachaf: Did I say it was?
04:14:42 <shachaf> elliott: Did I say you said it was?
04:14:59 <shachaf> elliott: By the way, "esolangs" don't count as actual languages.
04:15:02 <elliott> You have an additional space there.
04:15:16 <elliott> And I'll agree with you if you read the entirety of the Checkout page.
04:15:37 <shachaf> Ah, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Checkout
04:15:50 <shachaf> Maybe I'll just insert random double spaces into my text.
04:16:38 <shachaf> Checkout looks like a neat idea.
04:16:59 <elliott> Yes. Now read the entire page.
04:17:01 <shachaf> However, I'm going to need the entire page delivered to me in IRC-sized snippets.
04:17:14 <elliott> (a) You will agree that esolangs can be actual languages because you'll have read the entire damn thing; OR
04:17:30 <elliott> (b) You will give up because it is made of about a billion paragraphs of about ten thousand sentences (this is the likely scenario).
04:17:41 <elliott> Either way I don't have to agree. YaySimple tutorial on Twisted Deferreds and how to implement them in Haskell
04:17:55 <zzo38> I like the Checkout esolang idea too; I want to be able to use a fully open-source Checkout compiler to program a GPU that has open specification.
04:17:58 * shachaf suspects there's a flaw in elliott's logic.
04:18:15 <elliott> I can guarantee that I never say anything wrong at all.
04:18:23 <elliott> zzo38: I doubt that will happen.
04:19:36 <zzo38> elliott: I, too, doubt it; probably because very few people would be interested and that many GPU do not follow these requirements.
04:20:04 <elliott> I don't think anyone would want to write programs in Checkout by hand though.
04:20:12 <zzo38> Yes it would be neat.
04:21:04 <elliott> It would even be: Super neat.
04:21:32 <elliott> I'm almost as good at words as monqy.
04:21:50 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
04:21:54 <HackEgo> lumbatenoncipard sawailecgle ibutoehalitter patuddoteeresporfriipele pracke camineanystionatiandhylcherty boufaskiditoiionfilist dis decrccatenadalc arcte mermi ar ment postragopc yamopporgeminerridepomarhuferse orfs sellineum mangriek hia grolina shotticallorp lobufgendlcmpres clum ticalder tf leuck foravoynynatios wal gos
04:22:25 <zzo38> I would want to write programs in Checkout almost by hand, by having a macro system for it. (BLISS has a powerful macro system, so you could possibly use something like that)
04:26:15 <elliott> Almost as good a word as lumbatenoncipard.
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04:27:45 <CakeProphet> checkout seems so unusual is this how processors actually work kind of?
04:27:51 <oerjan> <elliott> shachaf: Also, what's a map structure with fast minKey (O(log n) at least) that isn't Map or IntMap? <-- finger trees
04:28:21 <shachaf> oerjan: elliott decided he didn't want minKey and didn't tell us what he did want.
04:28:22 <CakeProphet> is the level hierarchy essentially a means of parallelism?
04:28:36 <elliott_> I said I wanted minimumUnusedKey.
04:28:44 <elliott_> Basically I'm allocating ID numbers and then looking them up.
04:28:57 <elliott_> And then deleting them later, in which case the ID should be available for reuse.
04:29:16 <shachaf> CakeProphet: Processors are, like, weird, man.
04:29:43 <elliott_> shachaf: Probably not, but thirty-two bit integers are not /that/ hard to exhaust.
04:30:31 <elliott_> And the intention is to be able to run the server indefinitely, so reuse is preferred.
04:30:34 <elliott_> I suppose I could rely on overflow.
04:30:36 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
04:31:27 <shachaf> You could just keep a set of keys that you've deleted, if there aren't going to be that many.
04:32:13 <elliott_> Well, it's a network server with up to, say, a hundred connections at once.
04:32:21 <elliott_> Connections probably won't last more than a few hours.
04:32:29 <elliott_> And connections/disconnections will be pretty frequent.
04:32:43 <CakeProphet> you probably want a finger tree of priority queues.
04:32:49 <elliott_> So were one to run a ridiculously popular server, one could see pretty damn high identifiers pretty quickly.
04:32:54 <elliott_> shachaf: ...but I guess overflow will sort it out.
04:33:00 <elliott_> I mean, unless one guy stays connected for like two years.
04:33:06 <zzo38> You could have a infinite list of 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 and so on, and when you delete, put it at the beginning
04:33:36 <zzo38> And you might want a timeout; you don't need to stay connected for two years
04:33:53 <elliott_> Hmm, an infinite list might work.
04:33:57 <elliott_> shachaf: Why didn't you suggest that?
04:34:11 <elliott_> <zzo38> You could have a infinite list of 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 and so on, and when you delete, put it at the beginning
04:34:12 <zzo38> (If it is 32-bit numbers, it will not actually be infinite)
04:34:21 <CakeProphet> elliott_: I considered it, but I figured it would be too trivial since you were trying more complicated stuff.
04:34:38 * shachaf can never figure out elliott's sense of humor.
04:35:46 * elliott_ wonders if there's a nicer way to write [0..] ++ [-1,-2..]
04:36:43 <CakeProphet> elliott_: I'm assuming you've "casted" that into an int or something?
04:36:50 <CakeProphet> otherwise the negatives won't ever be reached.
04:37:04 <shachaf> elliott_: What's wrong with [minBound..]?
04:37:08 <monqy> cakeprohpet wizdom
04:37:20 <CakeProphet> elliott_: disambiguated the Num instance. does that sound better?
04:37:51 <oerjan> * elliott_ wonders if there's a nicer way to write [0..] ++ [-1,-2..] <-- [0..], assuming they're Integers :P
04:37:57 <shachaf> You're not even coercing. :-(
04:38:04 <shachaf> Come on, you gotta coerce.
04:38:04 <CakeProphet> oerjan: elliott_: yes this is what I was getting
04:38:07 <elliott_> shachaf: It's kind of ugly to have the first connection get a really huge negative ID number. :p
04:38:16 <elliott_> That's literally the only reason.
04:38:28 <elliott_> Sequences are meant to start at 0.
04:38:31 <shachaf> elliott_: [0..] :: Word32?
04:39:04 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Word.Word32'
04:39:13 <elliott_> [0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29,30,31,32,33,34,35,36,37,38,39,40,41,42,43,44,45,46,47,48,49,50,51,52,53,54,55,56,57,58,59,60,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,69,70,71,72,73,74,75,76,77,78,79,80,81,82,83,84,85,86,87,88,89,90,91,92,93,94,95,96,97,98,99,100,101,102,103,104,105,106,107,108,109,110,111,112,113,114,115,116,117,118,119,120,121,122,123,124,125,126,127,-128,-127,-126,-125,-124,-123,-122,-121,-120,-119,-1
04:39:13 <elliott_> 18,-117,-116,-115,-114,-113,-112,-111,-110,-109,-108,-107,-106,-105,-104,-103,-102,-101,-100,-99,-98,-97,-96,-95,-94,-93,-92,-91,-90,-89,-88,-87,-86,-85,-84,-83,-82,-81,-80,-79,-78,-77,-76,-75,-74,-73,-72,-71,-70,-69,-68,-67,-66,-65,-64,-63,-62,-61,-60,-59,-58,-57,-56,-55,-54,-53,-52,-51,-50,-49,-48,-47,-46,-45,-44,-43,-42,-41,-40,-39,-38,-37,-36,-35,-34,-33,-32,-31,-30,-29,-28,-27,-26,-25,-24,-23,-22,-21,-20,-19,-18,-17,-16,-15,-14,-13,-12,-11,-10,-9
04:39:15 <elliott_> shachaf: Not quite the same :P
04:39:26 <shachaf> elliott_: It accomplishes the purpose.
04:39:26 <monqy> so this is what you are doigne..
04:39:35 <zzo38> Use unsigned types if it helps.
04:39:53 <shachaf> elliott_: When did your reuse-of-IDs problem get solved again?
04:39:55 <elliott_> [0..] ++ [minBound..-1] I guess is as good as it gets.
04:40:35 <CakeProphet> elliott_: I find it hilarious that making that sequence "look nicer" is an actual issue you're trying to resolve. :P
04:41:07 <oerjan> > map fromEnum [0 :: Word8 ..] :: [Int8]
04:41:07 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Int.Int8'
04:41:19 <oerjan> > map fromIntegral [0 :: Word8 ..] :: [Int8]
04:41:20 <lambdabot> [0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,...
04:41:44 <oerjan> > reverse $ map fromIntegral [0 :: Word8 ..] :: [Int8]
04:41:45 <lambdabot> [-1,-2,-3,-4,-5,-6,-7,-8,-9,-10,-11,-12,-13,-14,-15,-16,-17,-18,-19,-20,-21...
04:41:45 <CakeProphet> I see no aesthetic difference at all in that
04:41:56 <CakeProphet> if anything it might actually be uglier to me.
04:42:17 <shachaf> > (\x->x::Int8).fromIntegral.[(\x->x::Word8)0..]
04:42:18 <lambdabot> [0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,...
04:42:30 <CakeProphet> maybe I have perl mind virus where "is smaller code" -> "looks nicer"
04:42:43 <shachaf> CakeProphet: s/erl/rogrammer/
04:43:04 <monqy> im not a programmer, proud?
04:43:09 <elliott_> MC/Host.hs:49:58: Not in scope: `..-'
04:43:42 <shachaf> elliott_: What you *actually* want is [0,1,-1,2,-2,..]
04:43:46 <monqy> good thing I put spaces around my things so this never happens to me
04:43:49 <shachaf> That's the true enumeration.
04:44:00 <monqy> > [0,1,-1,2,-2,..]
04:44:01 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `..'
04:44:31 <oerjan> > [0, -1..] <**> [id, (1-)]
04:44:32 <lambdabot> [0,1,-1,2,-2,3,-3,4,-4,5,-5,6,-6,7,-7,8,-8,9,-9,10,-10,11,-11,12,-12,13,-13...
04:45:07 <shachaf> Now that's an enumeration!
04:45:14 <zzo38> Yes, [0,1,-1,2,-2,.. is the way if you have a list with an first element and want to list *all* of the integers.
04:45:19 <shachaf> A real enumeration. Remuneration.
04:45:43 <oerjan> > 1 - (maxBound :: Int8)
04:45:59 <zzo38> But do you require all of the integers?
04:46:01 <oerjan> > 1 - (minBound :: Int8)
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04:46:08 <monqy> lame terms for lame people
04:46:11 <oerjan> actually, overlaps some
04:46:38 <monqy> > reverse $ [0, -1..] <**> [id, (1-)]
04:46:52 <CakeProphet> this is the most ridiculous code pageant every.
04:47:19 <oerjan> monqy: lambdabot is _shockingly_ bad at reversing infinite lists
04:47:28 <monqy> oerjan: a True Pity
04:47:50 <monqy> > reverse ([0, -1..] <**> [id, (1-)]) :: [Int8]
04:48:03 <zzo38> You cannot reverse infinite lists!
04:48:17 <oerjan> > reverse ([0, -1..] <**> [id, (1-)]) :: [Int8]
04:48:19 <lambdabot> [-127,-128,-128,-127,127,-126,126,-125,125,-124,124,-123,123,-122,122,-121,...
04:48:23 <zzo38> Because a list must have a first element
04:48:24 <shachaf> > map (\x -> foldl' (\x y -> 2 * x + y) 0 x :: Int8) $ replicateM (sizeOf (undefined::Int8)*8) [0,1]
04:48:25 <lambdabot> [0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,...
04:49:16 -!- elliott_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
04:51:59 <CakeProphet> elliott__: using floating point numbers instead
04:52:39 <monqy> why are you saying floats
04:52:56 <elliott__> mchost: PacketReadError "too few bytes\nFrom:\tdemandInput\n\n"
04:53:06 <shachaf> elliott__: You can enumerate Float32s!
04:53:18 <CakeProphet> monqy: I was under the impression that float was a perfectly normal thing for a programmer to say.
04:53:22 <shachaf> IEEE floats are even correctly ordered.
04:53:26 <monqy> floats is a bad word
04:53:37 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `root'Not in scope: `beer'Not in scope: `floats'
04:53:40 <CakeProphet> monqy: and only gross sounding to weird pedantic people
04:53:44 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `root'Not in scope: `beer'Not in scope: `sinks'
04:54:22 <calamari> is that missing spaces for anyone else?
04:55:35 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show (m t))
04:55:35 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `M5331478887...
04:55:45 <CakeProphet> I'm going to get so fat if I keep eating bacon all the time but it's so delicious.
04:55:45 <monqy> CakeProphet: even worse
04:56:07 <calamari> I guess I should learn haskell sometime
04:56:08 <monqy> never ever do bacon floats or i will hunt you down and kill you augh my leg
04:56:37 <CakeProphet> `addquote < monqy> never ever do bacon floats or i will hunt you down and kill you augh my leg
04:56:39 <HackEgo> 704) < monqy> never ever do bacon floats or i will hunt you down and kill you augh my leg
04:56:42 <elliott__> "Precise Pangolin"? Seriously, Shuttleworth?
04:57:06 <CakeProphet> `addquote <monqy> never ever do bacon floats or i will hunt you down and kill you augh my leg
04:57:08 <HackEgo> 704) <monqy> never ever do bacon floats or i will hunt you down and kill you augh my leg
04:57:26 <CakeProphet> `addquote <monqy> never ever do bacon floats or i will hunt you down and kill you augh my leg
04:57:28 <HackEgo> 704) <monqy> never ever do bacon floats or i will hunt you down and kill you augh my leg
04:57:52 <CakeProphet> also seriously why does irssi include the newline when I specifically avoided it.
04:58:18 <monqy> the augh my leg is because i felt a pain running down my leg while i was typing it
04:58:33 <monqy> my left leg, if it helps your imagination
04:58:41 <monqy> my right leg if you'd prefer I lie
04:58:55 <oerjan> <CakeProphet> I didn't even highlight the newline. <-- it will end the line if there is any newline inside the paste.
04:58:56 <monqy> both legs if you want to imagine me in pain
04:59:15 <CakeProphet> oerjan: ...right, which is why I didn't highlight the newline
05:00:44 <calamari> I think I found out how to use social networks properly.. it's actually a game: you try to be as annoying as possible.. once you lose all your friends, you win!
05:01:17 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later).
05:02:21 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: words: not found
05:02:29 <HackEgo> ixted eque nos welogro deng poccbiscaletchrostanacatiblesladism ra rejlaulon iseetrogit ducha agog ableinkeilt mum bahmillhortiquerglisigk bed chenn klexnices gj sper loshe genzia ree hot saming by bur dectiornitremichendhase pre eutted la na vak wootompdpliamermintionnior aterie oxae mitnr omeng mele ovs imseria
05:02:42 <elliott__> poccbiscaletchrostanacatiblesladism
05:02:53 <monqy> deng is like a word I would say
05:03:21 <HackEgo> 2011-10-07.txt:05:02:59: <monqy> `log deng
05:03:23 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: the game).
05:03:43 <monqy> omeng. just about anything ending with eng is good.
05:08:10 <CakeProphet> I should take all this wonderful free time I have
05:08:16 <CakeProphet> and instead of doing nothing as I am prone to do
05:08:42 -!- elliott__ has changed nick to elliott.
05:08:43 -!- elliott has quit (Changing host).
05:08:43 -!- elliott has joined.
05:09:22 <CakeProphet> but I can keep the old one too if you like?
05:11:08 <elliott> mchost: PacketReadError "too few bytes\nFrom:\tdemandInput\n\n"
05:11:08 <elliott> WHY YOU INFERNAL MACHINE WHYYYY
05:17:04 <CakeProphet> because I'm sure it's absolutely terrible to parse.
05:24:28 -!- kmc has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
05:25:57 <CakeProphet> I wonder if there's any reason not to prenormalize the data in the actual file.
05:26:19 <zzo38> What would the category of magic spells be in Icosahedral RPG?
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05:35:39 <CakeProphet> I wonder if this word generating algorithm is similar to what a captcha service uses to generate some of its phrases.
05:36:14 <CakeProphet> some just use dictionary words or random strings of characters, of course.
05:42:35 <zzo38> When you make a category from a graph (using the things I have mentioned), what does a product category and comma category and so on make? What functors can you make? Do monomorphisms correspond to anything?
05:49:06 <CakeProphet> sub dataset_opt_handler($) { %opts{shift} = 1 } my %dataset_opts = map {$_, \dataset_opt_handler} %$data; GetOptions (%dataset_opts, N=>\$dont_normalize);
05:52:10 <zzo38> If I have data X b f = X f (b -> X b f) what is that called?
05:52:27 <zzo38> (Instead of "X", that is.)
05:53:23 <zzo38> It has some similarities to streams as well as some similarities to barrier monads
05:53:24 <HackEgo> Can't open perl script "print (5/2)": No such file or directory
05:58:14 <zzo38> Therefore I called it "BarrierStream"
06:02:30 <CakeProphet> a language where you can initialize a variable outside of the scope it's defined to be visible in.
06:02:58 <CakeProphet> I suppose that's similar to be dynamic scoping actually.
06:03:06 <monqy> initialization? whats that?
06:03:25 <CakeProphet> monqy: that's where you assign a variable for the first time in these weird state machine things.
06:03:52 <monqy> "assign a variable for the first time" what!!!!
06:03:57 <monqy> state machine things whaaaaaaaaaaat
06:05:40 <CakeProphet> I think they're called computers I can't remember.
06:06:01 <monqy> i mpuke at the very thoguht
06:09:33 <CakeProphet> my $sum = $dont_normalize? 1 : sum(values %fs);
06:11:07 <CakeProphet> so $sum = 1 has the effect of not normalizing.
06:13:41 <CakeProphet> bahahahahahaha my $sum = $dont_normalize || sum(values %fs);
06:15:07 <monqy> hm another spambot with sentence beginning problems
06:15:08 <fizzie> Is that //= 0 necessary?
06:15:30 <CakeProphet> I believe it was you who told me that code would have a warning otherwise.
06:15:43 <fizzie> It certainly wasn't me; could've been ais523.
06:16:07 <CakeProphet> oh wow I just realized I forgot use strict; use warnings;
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06:16:22 <fizzie> Don't see any warnings in there anyhow.
06:16:24 <fizzie> $ perl -e 'use strict; use warnings; use Data::Dumper; my %a = (); $a{b}->{c} += 1; print Dumper(\%a);'
06:17:27 <fizzie> I don't really personally feel all that comfortable in doing the autovivification dance.
06:18:13 <fizzie> I'unno; personal idiosyncracy, I suppose. It's certainly all Perlish and all that.
06:19:14 <CakeProphet> dunno, I like it. Saves a bunch of %blah = (); lines
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06:21:18 <fizzie> $ echo 'long long long int im_so_long;' | gcc -xc -
06:21:18 <fizzie> <stdin>:1: error: ‘long long long’ is too long for GCC
06:21:43 <fizzie> Sadly "short short" is just "duplicate short".
06:21:58 <monqy> short short is too long
06:22:15 <fizzie> "error: both ‘long’ and ‘short’ in declaration specifiers"
06:22:30 <fizzie> $ echo 'long long long long long int im_so_long;' | gcc -xc -
06:22:31 <fizzie> <stdin>:1: error: ‘long long long’ is too long for GCC
06:22:31 <fizzie> <stdin>:1: error: ‘long long long’ is too long for GCC
06:22:31 <fizzie> <stdin>:1: error: ‘long long long’ is too long for GCC
06:22:34 <fizzie> That's a bit funny too.
06:22:43 <monqy> long short too confusing for gcc
06:22:43 <fizzie> It's one more error for each (overlapping) triplet of longs.
06:23:02 <pikhq> Demonstrating that GCC's error reporting sucks.
06:23:43 <pikhq> Sadly, clang is boring.
06:23:48 <pikhq> $ echo 'long long long int im_so_long;' | clang -xc -
06:23:51 <pikhq> <stdin>:1:11: error: cannot combine with previous 'long long' declaration specifier
06:23:54 <pikhq> long long long int im_so_long; ^
06:23:57 <pikhq> 1 error generated.
06:24:06 <pikhq> Bleh, copy-paste fucked that up.
06:24:09 <fizzie> I recall not-so-seriously suggesting that each 'long' should double the width, each 'short' halve it, and it should support arbitrary widths.
06:24:35 <pikhq> fizzie: Easier solution: int*_t.
06:24:45 <pikhq> Where * can be any greater-than-0 power of 2.
06:25:26 <fizzie> It doesn't quite have the same feel as "long long long long long long short /* just to avoid the monotony */ long int two_kilobits;"
06:25:31 <pikhq> int1_t is best. Consider that that's signed.
06:25:47 <monqy> CakeProphet: extra e on that agre there
06:26:00 <pikhq> int2048_t two_kilobits;
06:26:14 <pikhq> Actually. the int*_ts are typedefs.
06:26:17 <pikhq> They could coexist.
06:27:06 <CakeProphet> what would happen if you tried to use a struct of ints in an integer expression?
06:28:53 <CakeProphet> `run perl -e 'use Data::Dumper; $t=2; Dumper(\$t);
06:28:56 <HackEgo> sh: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ sh: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
06:29:04 <CakeProphet> `run perl -e 'use Data::Dumper; $t=2; Dumper(\$t);'
06:29:11 <CakeProphet> `run perl -e 'use Data::Dumper; $t=2; print Dumper(\$t);'
06:29:38 <CakeProphet> it would be nice if that didn't output the reference.
06:29:43 <CakeProphet> `run perl -e 'use Data::Dumper; $t=2; print Dumper($t);'
06:30:05 <CakeProphet> `run perl -e 'use Data::Dumper; $t=2; print Dumper($t, 4);'
06:31:34 <fizzie> You can have signed one-bit-wide bitfields already, though. It has a range of [-1, 0] on a two's-complement system. At least so it happens to work on this GCC, and I can't find anything in the standard prohibiting it. I'm just wondering what it would do on a sign-magnitude machine.
06:31:50 <fizzie> Possibly it'd just be -0 or 0.
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06:34:25 <pikhq> Pretty sure that'd be the behavior per the standard.
06:34:55 <CakeProphet> fizzie: would it be possible via prototyping to have a subroutine take either a hash or a hashref and treat either exactly the same way?
06:35:05 <CakeProphet> or, rather, what's the best way to do that.
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06:38:43 <fizzie> I don't really think so. I mean, \% would give you a hash-as-a-hashref, but it can't be that if you want it to take a hashrefs too (without explicit %$foo'ing them).
06:39:16 <CakeProphet> I'll just use hashref then as that's the common case
06:39:36 <CakeProphet> better looking than %{} all over the place
06:40:32 <fizzie> That sounds reasonable. You could argue for \% as it'd "compile-time" typecheck you're always passing in a hash, but that doesn't really help since it wouldn't look past the %{} in the cases where something bad actually might occur.
06:47:28 <CakeProphet> I wonder if I could somehow incorporate recursion into the lvalue sub modifier.
06:50:10 <CakeProphet> elliott: so, re: word generation, you said the space frequency should increase exponentially after the target length is reached.
06:50:18 <CakeProphet> exactly what kind of exponential? if that makes sense.
06:51:36 <fizzie> Possibly the sort where the base is larger than one.
06:53:03 <CakeProphet> perhaps polynomial increase would be more reasonable?
06:55:24 <CakeProphet> so uh.... space = 2**space?? that uh.... okay.
06:55:41 <fizzie> 2**(length-target_length), more like?
06:56:24 <CakeProphet> shouldn't it sort of depend on the original frequency though?
06:56:44 <fizzie> Well, I was assuming "space" was a multiplier for it or some-such.
06:56:55 <CakeProphet> this is just assigning a flat, very high percent to spaces, which would not produce natural endings.
06:57:46 <CakeProphet> I don't know polynomial still makes sense to me especially with values that are already normalized. 2**anything is just going to be a ridiculous amount of probability.
06:58:51 <fizzie> Given that you already (I guess?) select a properly distributed random target length, I don't suppose the way you emphasize the spaces matters all that much; all it affects is what's the expected amount of "extra" characters you will get.
06:59:33 <elliott> fizzie: CakeProphet: You want the probability of space to get exponentially closer to one each character you go OVER target.
06:59:38 <elliott> NOT as you approach target.
06:59:50 <elliott> And note that target is actually the real target length MINUS a small constant, so this works out.
06:59:59 <fizzie> Yes, that is not news.
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07:00:31 <elliott> CakeProphet: Anyway, the probability is MEANT to be ridiculous.
07:00:40 <elliott> The whole point is to not go over the target by more than a few.
07:01:25 <CakeProphet> it seems that you lose much of the benefit of the spaces if the probability increase significantly outweighs the Markov chain.
07:01:56 <CakeProphet> might as well stop a randomly selected length.
07:02:18 <elliott> It is far preferable to do this than to go over the target by much.
07:03:44 <elliott> CakeProphet: To be clear: Of course you want to scale up lengths as you approach the target.
07:03:52 <elliott> But you want to scale them much, much faster once you pass it.
07:04:23 <CakeProphet> I thought the idea was to ignore spaces until target length?
07:04:59 <elliott> You want spaces to be reduced in likelihood at the start, increase as you get closer to the target, and then sharply increase as you pass it.
07:05:22 <elliott> The various factors can be tweaked by comparing the length of the words produced to the target lengths.
07:08:09 <CakeProphet> the target length is already based on the word length histogram. I don't see the benefit of allowing words to stop short of the target when the idea is to replicate the word lengths of the dataset.
07:09:14 <elliott> if you can stop with probability 0.99999 after foobar
07:09:32 <elliott> or with probability 0.3 scaled up after foobarebq
07:12:52 <CakeProphet> but all of this stuff has the effect of shortening the mean length of the generated words below the mean length of the dataset.
07:13:49 <elliott> Not with constant factor tweaking.
07:14:35 <fizzie> You just pick your target-length-to-real-target-length offset so that it matches the mean of the difference between your target length and the mean of what you got with it.
07:17:22 <fizzie> The one picked from your dataset. As opposed to the one used in the space-weighting.
07:17:55 <fizzie> Alternatively, you can have just a single target length and have an constant in the space-weighting with some other name, if you like that more.
07:19:41 <fizzie> With a context length of 2, it's not really going to be so terribly clever about "wordness", so personally I wouldn't care about biases in the exact distribution of word endings so much.
07:19:58 <fizzie> Just, you know, do something.
07:20:37 <CakeProphet> to me this algorithm seems to make the actual markov probability of a space entirely irrelevant.
07:22:59 <fizzie> It's going to avoid unseen word endings, which is probably the most important thing; and depending on your parameters (basically, how "sharply" you fix it to be the target length) it's still going to make unlikely word endings unlikelier than likely ones.
07:29:49 <CakeProphet> right, but that's kind of like saying O(2^n + n^3) is noticeably slower than O(2^n + n^2)
07:32:17 <fizzie> It's not going to be very likely that you happen to end up multiple characters past your target length, where the space-weighting would flatten the last-letters-of-the-word distribution much.
07:33:18 <CakeProphet> I'm mostly concerned about getting more unusual word endings.
07:34:03 <fizzie> That's a strange thing to be concerned about.
07:34:32 <CakeProphet> I'm increasing their likelihood exponentially...
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07:35:00 <fizzie> Yes, as you go over the target length; but you don't really go over the target length by much very often.
07:38:09 <fizzie> It's really up to you. All you're doing is determining the shape of the distribution of the difference between the generated word length and the target word length. Approximately speaking, your final word length distribution is going to be a convolution of that and your target distribution (the dataset word lengths). If you make it possible to deviate much from the target length, you'll possibly lessen the bias on word endings, but it'll smoosh the generated wo
07:38:10 <fizzie> rd lengths by some amount too.
07:38:56 <CakeProphet> there's no way I'm going to get this right on the first try. :P
07:39:27 <fizzie> You're not going to get it "right" anyway; just make up something that spews reasonable-looking output.
07:39:48 <fizzie> If you seriously care about this so much, you should probably be doing the exact thing, but that sounds pretty messy. (Basically, for each generated character you should only consider the subset of 'grams that can possibly result in a word of the desired length, renormalized. It should be possible to precompute some of this, but still.)
07:41:23 <CakeProphet> okay so... space_f*(length word - target)????
07:42:43 <CakeProphet> what if I just did 2**(length $word - $target) the entire time?
07:43:01 <CakeProphet> this would make spaces uncommon up to the target I believe.
07:43:31 <fizzie> You can do that, yes. Assuming that's a value you then multiply the existing space frequency with.
07:44:18 <CakeProphet> so when the difference = 1 that means space is 50% chance...
07:45:18 <fizzie> When length $word == $target+1, you have twice the chance of space that you would normally have.
07:46:18 <CakeProphet> I should have an option to override the distribution. :P
07:46:49 <fizzie> You can tune the base if it doesn't seem to do well, and you certainly should tune the offset you apply to $target so that what you get out will, on average, match the "actual" target.
07:47:10 <CakeProphet> yes I was going to include it as an option so that it can be adjusted quickly.
07:47:39 <fizzie> Oh no, it's lunchtime.
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08:39:12 <CakeProphet> `run perl -e '%blah = (a=>2);$x = \%blah; %blah2 = %$x; $blah2{b}=3; print %$x;
08:39:15 <CakeProphet> `run perl -e '%blah = (a=>2);$x = \%blah; %blah2 = %$x; $blah2{b}=3; print %$x;'
08:39:18 <HackEgo> sh: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ sh: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
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15:02:12 <fizzie> It's like a secret handshake for programmers.
15:02:38 <Ngevd> That we try to put as early on as possible in the majority of tutorials
15:02:50 <Ngevd> We're a very open sect
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16:12:24 <Ngevd> Time to play Portal
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17:09:34 <Gregor> You just answered your own question.
17:10:25 <Gregor> X does get set to *, it expands after variable replacement.
17:11:40 <CakeProphet> what happens if there's a * passed to a subroutine?
17:12:14 <fizzie> "The order of expansions is: brace expansion, tilde expansion, parameter, variable and arithmetic expansion and command substitution (done in a left-to-right fashion), word splitting, and pathname expansion."
17:13:01 <CakeProphet> cool so I can shorten this code a lot now.
17:13:29 <fizzie> (That was for bash; I'm not sure how it's specifically defined for POSIX sh.)
17:13:53 <Gregor> Presumably the same, or bash wouldn't be particularly POSIX-compliant ... I don't think any of those are bash-specific.
17:13:59 <fizzie> It seems reasonably similar.
17:14:13 <fizzie> "The order of word expansion shall be as follows:
17:14:13 <fizzie> Tilde expansion (see Tilde Expansion ), parameter expansion (see Parameter Expansion ), command substitution (see Command Substitution ), and arithmetic expansion (see Arithmetic Expansion ) shall be performed, beginning to end. See item 5 in Token Recognition .
17:14:13 <fizzie> Field splitting (see Field Splitting ) shall be performed on the portions of the fields generated by step 1, unless IFS is null.
17:14:13 <fizzie> Pathname expansion (see Pathname Expansion ) shall be performed, unless set -f is in effect.
17:14:15 <fizzie> Quote removal (see Quote Removal ) shall always be performed last."
17:15:19 <Gregor> "quote removal" isn't meaningfully distinct from "word splitting", and I don't think that moving it to the other side of pathname expansion changes anything, but OK
17:15:44 <fizzie> Quote removal is actually listed (in a separate sentence) as a final step in the bash manual, too.
17:16:07 <Gregor> (To split words you have to be handling the quotes already, and you have to imagine they're not there to do pathname expansion OHHH except that single quotes don't expand OK I see the distinction)
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17:19:50 <fizzie> I think it's some sort of a mini-property.
17:20:09 <fizzie> You know, applets and so on.
17:21:03 <Gregor> `run sub() { return x y z }; sub; echo $?
17:21:04 <HackEgo> sh: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
17:21:09 <monqy> trick question. perl never makes sense.
17:21:21 <Gregor> monqy: Trick answer: Not perl you moron
17:21:41 <Gregor> `run sob() { return x y z }; sob; echo $?
17:21:43 <HackEgo> sh: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
17:21:47 <CakeProp1et> okay so I can't concat strings together in a return?
17:21:58 <fizzie> You can't return a string, either.
17:22:05 <Gregor> CakeProp1et: I didn't expect that to be a syntax error, I expected it to be weird.
17:22:09 <Gregor> 'cuz yeah, you can't return a string.
17:22:13 <fizzie> The return value of a shell function is much like a return code from a process.
17:22:25 <Gregor> `run sob() { return 42 }; sob; echo $?
17:22:27 <HackEgo> sh: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
17:22:34 <Gregor> `run sob() { return 42; }; sob; echo $?
17:22:58 <fizzie> You can echo, or you can set "return value" variables.
17:25:45 <CakeProp1et> also how would I use || as an expression inside a string...
17:25:59 <CakeProp1et> opt() { echo --$1 $D/googlebooks-($2||$1)-*.csv }
17:27:13 <fizzie> I'm not sure what you want to happen there.
17:27:40 <CakeProp1et> I want that string to be output with those variables substituted. when $2 isn't there I want it to use $1
17:27:53 <CakeProp1et> but actually I think I'll set it up so that the second argument doesn't exist at all.
17:28:03 <CakeProp1et> opt() { echo --$1 $D/googlebooks-$1-*.csv }
17:28:16 <fizzie> ${2:+$1} might have worked in bash, though I'm no bashist.
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17:30:01 <fizzie> ${foo:+bar} is "$foo, except with a default value of 'bar'" in bash.
17:30:09 <fizzie> It's bar when foo is empty or unset.
17:30:28 <fizzie> Bash has quite a lot of tricky ${} syntaxes.
17:31:11 <CakeProp1et> I was still thinking Perl where you would use || and // for that kind of stuff.
17:31:40 <fizzie> Oh, sorry, I meant ${2:-$1}, not +. I think.
17:31:55 <CakeProp1et> opt() { echo --$1 $D/googlebooks-$1-*.csv }
17:31:56 <CakeProp1et> perl ./construct_grams.pl $D/googlebooks-eng-1M-*.csv `opt eng-1M` `opt eng-fiction` `opt eng-gb` `opt eng-us` `opt fre` `opt ger` `opt heb` `opt rus` `opt spa` `opt chi-sim`
17:32:01 <CakeProp1et> so this looks completely reasonable right?
17:33:29 <fizzie> I don't want to commit myself to any answer, not being a sheller. Try it out and see? Put an "echo" in front of the perl for the first run?
17:34:34 <fizzie> "--foo" for any "foo" should be safe with built-in Bash echo; sadly it's not so for GNU coreutils echo.
17:34:41 <HackEgo> Usage: /bin/echo [OPTION]... [STRING]... \ Echo the STRING(s) to standard output. \ \ -n do not output the trailing newline \ -e enable interpretation of backslash escapes \ -E disable interpretation of backslash escapes (default) \ --help display this help and exit
17:35:30 <CakeProp1et> gb_opt() { echo --$1 $D/googlebooks-$1-*.csv }
17:35:31 <zzo38> When you make up the category from a graph as I have described, what is it called?
17:35:37 <fizzie> I'm not exactly sure how you are meant to echo "--help" with the coreutils echo.
17:35:50 <fizzie> `run /bin/echo -- --help
17:35:55 <fizzie> I mean, not like that, obviously.
17:36:00 <HackEgo> Usage: /bin/echo [OPTION]... [STRING]... \ Echo the STRING(s) to standard output. \ \ -n do not output the trailing newline \ -e enable interpretation of backslash escapes \ -E disable interpretation of backslash escapes (default) \ --help display this help and exit
17:36:19 <fizzie> Yes, I guess with that.
17:36:23 <fizzie> `run /bin/echo -E --help
17:37:15 <fizzie> Nah, it's not standard anyway.
17:38:36 <fizzie> POSIX echo only specifies "-n" (as a first operand), and the meaning of it is implementation-defined anyway; except on XSI-conformant systems, where it's treated as a string, so...
17:39:08 <fizzie> (OTOH Posix echo also says backslash escapes are enabled by default on XSI-conformant systems, unlike Bash echo which disables them without -e.)
17:39:15 <fizzie> Echoing: it's what's for dinner.
17:39:49 <fizzie> ('printf' is slightly more standardized.)
17:40:10 <CakeProp1et> echo perl ./construct_grams.pl $D/googlebooks-eng-1M-*.csv `gb_opt eng-1M` `gb_opt eng-fiction` `gb_opt eng-gb` `gb_opt eng-us` `gb_opt fre` `gb_opt ger` `gb_opt heb` `gb_opt rus` `gb_opt spa` `gb_opt chi-sim` `d_opt irish` `d_opt german-medical` `d_opt bulgarian` `d_opt catalan` `d_opt swedish` `d_opt brazilian` `d_opt canadian-english-insane` `d_opt manx` `d_opt italian` `d_opt ogerman` `d_opt portuguese` `d_opt polish` `d_opt
17:40:19 <CakeProp1et> because I don't want to write those by hand. :P
17:42:08 <fizzie> You can just generate them with cat <<HEREDOC | sed or something. Then you could write them on separate lines and all.
17:42:59 <fizzie> I don't see why it shouldn't work like that too, though.
17:43:12 <pikhq> fizzie: POSIX echo goes on to note that *literally anything* else does not comply.
17:43:39 <CakeProp1et> ./build_data.sh: line 6: syntax error: unexpected end of file
17:43:58 <fizzie> You want some ;s in the functions if you're writing them all on one line like that.
17:45:27 <CakeProp1et> the wildcard doesn't seem to be working correctly.
17:45:59 <CakeProp1et> perl ./construct_grams.pl Data.pm /media/Elements/googledata/googlebooks-eng-1M-1gram-20090715-0.csv /media/Elements/googledata/googlebooks-eng-1M-1gram-20090715-1.csv /media/Elements/googledata/googlebooks-eng-1M-1gram-20090715-2.csv /media/Elements/googledata/googlebooks-eng-1M-1gram-20090715-3.csv /media/Elements/googledata/googlebooks-eng-1M-1gram-20090715-4.csv /media/Elements/googledata/googlebooks-eng-1M-1gram-20090715-5.c
17:47:21 <fizzie> Well, we don't have the files, and your output paste is cut off when it's still (presumably) listing all the expansions of the first $D/googlebooks-eng-1M-*.csv in there.
17:47:40 <fizzie> Do you even want that thing in the perl line like that?
17:47:48 <CakeProp1et> oh, yeah the output skips all of the `gb_op ...` expansions
17:48:12 <CakeProp1et> yes that's the CLI construct_grams.pl uses.
17:48:35 <fizzie> It looks weird, since you have (well, would have) gb_opt'd the same files immediately after it.
17:49:47 <CakeProp1et> ./build_data.sh: line 6: gb_opt: command not found
17:50:05 <CakeProp1et> fizzie: oh yeah, that's kind of a hack, basically 1M is the default but it can also be specified.
17:50:24 <CakeProp1et> ^^^ is the error I get when I add the line echo `gb_opt test`
17:51:19 <fizzie> No, a } in the definition of D.
17:51:32 <fizzie> (Also maybe an editor with better syntax-highlighting?)
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17:54:09 <fizzie> For some reason I still wish you'd Storable (+gzip+base64, maybe) those hashes instead of evaluating them as Perl code.
17:55:51 <CakeProp1et> I'm not sure what difference that would make aside from being compressed.
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17:56:12 <fizzie> It's just more sensible.
17:56:30 <fizzie> What you're doing is like eval'ing JSON blobs instead of reading them with a JSON decoder.
17:56:35 * CakeProp1et waits forever for these 4-gajillion datasets to be calculated.
17:57:01 <CakeProp1et> fizzie: no it's more like interpreting perl code with a perl interpreter.
17:57:12 <fizzie> It's data, not code. GNAAA.
17:57:30 <fizzie> I'll tweak in some Storabled hashes into HackEgo when you're not looking some day.
17:57:52 <fizzie> There's the other thing too. Or, well, lots of things.
17:58:18 <CakeProp1et> AS IT ONLY REQUIRES A SINGLE IMPORT TO ACCESS.
17:58:52 <CakeProp1et> so yeah this will probably run for several hours until it hids the /usr/share/dict entries
17:59:01 <CakeProp1et> and then freak out due to some unforseen bug in the line parsing code.
17:59:02 <fizzie> I'll put in a tiny wrapper so that the storabled hashes are in the __DATA__ portion of Data.pm, and they get unsplunked during the loading.
17:59:13 <zzo38> I think an edgeless graph makes a discrete category, a forest graph makes a thin category, objects corresponding to nodes in the same connected components of the graph are isomorphic.
17:59:32 <fizzie> Also maybe I'll leave a few thousand lines of hashes at the start of the file so that you don't get suspicious.
17:59:46 <fizzie> Wait, am I thinking this out loud?
17:59:52 <CakeProp1et> just that I'm lazy and am already doing it this way.
18:03:19 <CakeProp1et> `run perl -e 'print sort qw(a b c d e f g h)'
18:03:38 <fizzie> You have learned: the alphabet!
18:04:36 <fizzie> The standard galactic alphabet.
18:05:00 -!- elliott has joined.
18:05:04 <elliott> 07:19:41: <fizzie> With a context length of 2, it's not really going to be so terribly clever about "wordness", so personally I wouldn't care about biases in the exact distribution of word endings so much.
18:05:04 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
18:05:06 -!- elliott has quit (Changing host).
18:05:06 -!- elliott has joined.
18:05:52 <fizzie> There's rather more of those, one would assume.
18:10:27 <elliott> 17:54:09: <fizzie> For some reason I still wish you'd Storable (+gzip+base64, maybe) those hashes instead of evaluating them as Perl code.
18:10:27 <elliott> 17:55:51: <CakeProp1et> I'm not sure what difference that would make aside from being compressed.
18:10:39 <elliott> CakeProp1et: If you don't do this, there is no way four-grams will fit on HackEgo.
18:10:55 <elliott> It'll either be too big to `fetch, or be glacial to run.
18:11:08 <elliott> (base64 doesn't sound necessary, though.)
18:11:30 <CakeProp1et> I could always compress it when I `fetch :)
18:13:09 <zzo38> You can make a similar thing I mentioned of categories from graphs, but for digraphs, would be that a digraph together with a cancellation specification makes up a category.
18:13:41 <fizzie> It's (surprisingly) 27 times what 27^3 would take.
18:13:49 <CakeProp1et> that's the total number of entries for 24 datasets.
18:14:28 <CakeProp1et> as it assumes every combination is possible.
18:14:37 <fizzie> The longer models tend to be sparser.
18:14:52 <fizzie> (For word models, the sparsity is actually quite a big problem when you want to deal with unseen stuff.)
18:17:03 <fizzie> Dopefish is the dopest of fishes.
18:17:59 <fizzie> "Tom Hall first conceived of the Dopefish as one of 24 potential characters for Keen 4. In his words, 'I just drew this stupid little fish'." (And the rest is history.)
18:18:15 <fizzie> (Actually I don't really know how well-known the Dopefish is.)
18:18:31 <fizzie> At least the "Appearances" list is quite long.
18:18:38 <Gregor> I remember the dopefish! (Although I didn't know it by that name until I looked it up)
18:18:44 <Gregor> I played Commander Keen 5 :)
18:18:49 <elliott> I'm aware of the Dopefish but am not certain why you are telling us about it now :P
18:19:06 <fizzie> elliott: I referred to the Standard Galactic Alphabet a bit earlier there.
18:19:09 <fizzie> Just going on from there.
18:19:23 <fizzie> Us bots tend to do that sort of stuff.
18:19:33 <fizzie> fungot: Isn't that right?
18:19:33 <fungot> fizzie: cyrus! are you leaving! executing program. please let me go... put me out?! hey! is that for us! the chef's in a snit, trying to get food to the front lines. heard a spell to energize the sword takes immense evil! indeed! this thing. what you have? transform! this trading house. it's the kind! i've decided to stay with these humans! you're a traitor! you're not our king! but, we are far outnumbered!
18:21:27 <fizzie> fungot: I think you've spent enough time in that style, it's starting to warp you.
18:21:27 <fungot> fizzie: see? i like marle better than " princess,' the chosen time has come! he's strong and he's gonna thrash those monsters! yea! is it?
18:21:39 <elliott> fizzie: You should add a command that lets you set it up for a sword alone can't stop for the next message.
18:21:51 <elliott> So you can seem amazing and do it on demand-- oh, I've ruined it, haven't I.
18:22:05 <fizzie> It seems to be managing that on its own quite well, though.
18:22:07 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct* darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher homestuck ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa sms speeches ss wp youtube
18:22:56 <fizzie> I think I need a "^style random" support.
18:23:35 <Gregor> `run head -c 100 /dev/urandom
18:24:41 <elliott> fizzie: What you need is that feedback loop model :P
18:24:45 <fizzie> `run echo agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher homestuck ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa sms speeches ss wp youtube | tr ' ' '\n' | shuf -n 1
18:24:52 <fungot> Selected style: nethack (NetHack 3.4.3 data.base, rumors.tru, rumors.fal)
18:25:05 <fizzie> What I need is to make ^style available for bots, then I can just abuse that.
18:25:37 <CakeProp1et> fungot: fizzie: I wonder if fortune would be a good dataset?
18:25:37 <fungot> CakeProp1et: dogs are much harder to kill the wizard, you don't wear glasses why bother? " oh, heck! i'll handle *this* one!
18:26:11 <CakeProp1et> You may worry about your hair-do today, but tomorrow much peanut butter will
18:26:11 <CakeProp1et> You may worry about your hair-do today, but tomorrow much peanut butter will
18:26:29 <HackEgo> sh: fortune: command not found
18:26:34 <Gregor> `fetch http://sprunge.us/XiBQ
18:26:34 <fizzie> <Mercury> At that point it will compile, but segfault, as it should..
18:26:35 <HackEgo> 2011-10-07 18:26:35 URL:http://sprunge.us/XiBQ [208] -> "XiBQ" [1]
18:26:48 <Gregor> `run mv XiBQ bin/refunge; chmod 0755 bin/refunge
18:27:03 <Gregor> Ohright, I forgot I have botloop avoidance :P
18:27:40 <elliott> fizzie: wget http://sprunge.us/CdDH; mkmodel CdDH >models/fungot
18:27:40 <fungot> elliott: someone once said that what goes up might come down. 2. figurative: _a paper tiger_, something that is going to win at nethack. it captures its prey by remaining very still and blending into the water and make them visible.
18:27:46 <fizzie> Oh, you have an anti-loop thing in there too?
18:27:50 <fungot> ^(EgoBot|HackEgo|toBogE|Sparkbot|optbot|lambdabot)!
18:27:54 <fungot> fizzie: eating a tengu is like unless you can trust your gold away. kaeda takeji finished him off. the thick grass at the shoulder and has kept it that way ever since.
18:27:58 <elliott> fizzie: (You might want to strip "\w+: " from the beginnings of lines because of all the nickpings, but on the other hand maybe not.)
18:28:21 <elliott> Also there's a blank line at the bottom there, in case you have to do something about that.
18:28:46 <elliott> fizzie: (If you need longer individual source "sequences", I could try and time-order it so you could consider the whole thing as one huge utterance.)
18:29:12 <Gregor> `run ln -s /usr/games/fortune bin/
18:29:20 <HackEgo> Just remember: when you go to court, you are trusting your fate to \ twelve people that weren't smart enough to get out of jury duty!
18:29:44 <elliott> Gregor: Which fortune sets are installed?
18:29:51 <Gregor> elliott: Base, offensive, mario.
18:30:01 <HackEgo> 100.00% /usr/share/games/fortunes \ 0.64% riddles \ 2.10% fortunes \ 1.27% literature \ 3.17% miscellaneous \ 0.15% magic \ 3.04% science \ 3.40% politics \ 0.06% translate-me \ 0.73% kids \ 5.85% definitions \ 0.26% goedel \ 1.10% startrek \ 1.63% linux \ 2.67%
18:30:09 <elliott> Gregor: IME the offensive ones are usually just boring. You should remove them and install bofh-excuses and spam. :p
18:30:22 <elliott> Then HackEgo will be almost as incomprehensible as fungot; that spam dataset is huge.
18:30:22 <fungot> elliott: monsters sleep because you are destined to be taken lightly. perseus, favoured by minerva and mercury, the freshest grapefruit you've ever eaten was dull, and sweet puck, you are my enemy, i don't know the recipe; but it will take time.
18:30:39 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, more specifically, the good ones are drowned out by Hitler quotes and gay jokes.
18:30:48 <elliott> Or gay Hitler quote jokes.
18:30:58 <HackEgo> _..... ....._ \ .oii|||||||| ||||||||iio. \ .i^""""____ ____""""^i. \ .-',--.`-. .-',--.`-. \ <_ | () | _> <_ | () | _> \ `-`=='-' `-`=='-'
18:31:07 * CakeProp1et decided to remove simplified chinese from his data.
18:31:54 <CakeProp1et> unless simplified is the one that uses latin alphabet.
18:32:07 <zzo38> Does a balanced tournament represent Janken?
18:32:21 <CakeProp1et> but I'm pretty sure that's pinyin/some-other-systems-I-can't-remember
18:32:34 <pikhq> Pinyin is the one that uses Latin script.
18:32:40 <zzo38> CakeProp1et: Simplified Chinese means the characters are in a simpler (and, in my opinion, harder to understand) form.
18:32:56 <pikhq> Simplified Chinese brought about a number of structural simplifications.
18:33:09 <CakeProp1et> unless you guys want randomly generated Chinese words..
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18:33:29 <pikhq> Unfortunately, this made some elements of it much more complex: you end up having significantly more character *components* to learn.
18:34:27 <sadhu> finally my bf interpreter is complete....i was having problems initially to implement the nested loops functionality but atlast it's done
18:34:42 <pikhq> And pinyin is just a clusterfuck of bad orthography.
18:35:13 <Gregor> sadhu: With a completed BF interpreter, you are now allowed access to the Sekrit #esoteric-gold channel.
18:35:53 <fizzie> elliott: Here's about a hundred comments of that: http://sprunge.us/AEYb
18:36:03 <fizzie> (They seem to run quite long.)
18:36:24 <elliott> fizzie: all gone! you're a traitor! you're not our king! but, we are far
18:36:24 <elliott> outnumbered! fu, hu, hu, hu, hu, hu, hu, hu, hu, hu, hu, hu, hu, hu, hu,
18:36:24 <elliott> hu, hu, hu, hu, hu, hu, hu, hu, hu, hu, hu, hu, hu, hu, hu, hu, hu, hu,
18:36:24 <elliott> hu, hu, hu, hu, hu, hu, hu, hu, hu, hu, hu, hu, hu, hu, hu, hu, hu, hu,
18:36:24 <elliott> hu, hu, hu, hu, hu, hu, hu, hu, hu, hu, hu, hu, hu, hu, hu, hu, hu, hu,
18:36:32 <elliott> fizzie: So is that treating the whole thing as one utterance?
18:36:44 <elliott> 27, 28, 33, 36, 49, 64, 81, 82, 83 ...too much output! ...too much
18:36:45 <elliott> output! ...too much output! ...too m ...too much output!
18:37:00 <sadhu> elliott: what language is that?
18:37:06 <fungot> elliott: ettin: the kabuto is the object of your color and you will be my present to you soon. it is a slime-like creature who swallows other creatures alive, spits acidic secretions, and stamped. they are hitting you: they keep bouncing back.
18:37:16 <elliott> tap; said i don't care enough, i warrant you missed that: ):::ass. in
18:37:17 <elliott> case you missed that: (:::ass ):::ass (:::ass. in case you missed that:
18:37:17 <elliott> (:::ass ):::ass (:::ass ):::ass (:::ass ):::ass (:::ass. in case
18:37:17 <elliott> you missed that: ):::ass. in case you missed that: (:::ass ):::ass
18:37:17 <elliott> (:::ass. in case you missed that: ):::ass. in case you missed that:
18:37:19 <elliott> (:::ass ):::ass (:::ass ):::ass (:::ass. in case you missed that:
18:37:21 <elliott> ):::ass. in case you missed that: (:::ass. in case you missed that:
18:37:23 <elliott> ):::ass. ...too much stack!))))))))))))
18:37:40 -!- CakeProp1et has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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18:37:44 <elliott> I warrant you missed that ass.
18:38:01 <CakeProphet> this whole overheating thing needs to stop
18:38:09 <CakeProphet> I need to buy one of those cooling platform things maybe?
18:38:22 <elliott> 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 100, 121, 144, 169, 196, 225, 256, 289,
18:38:23 <elliott> 324, 361, 400, 441, 484, 529, 576, 625, 676, 729, 784, 841, 900, 961,
18:38:23 <elliott> 1024, 1089, 1156, 1225, 1296, 1369, 1444, 1521, 1600, 1681, 1764, ...out
18:38:27 <elliott> fizzie: This is amazing, add it.
18:38:38 <elliott> johannsen ohannsen hannsen annsen nnsen nsen sen en n, 144, 169, 196,
18:38:38 <elliott> 225, 256, 289, 324, 361, 400, 441, 484, 529, 576, 625, 676, 729, 784,
18:38:38 <elliott> 841, 900, 961, 1024, 1089, 1156, 1225, 1296, 1369, 1444, 1521, 1600,
18:38:38 <elliott> 1681, 1764, ...out of stack! he's really a tricycle! pass him!
18:38:46 <fizzie> elliott: There are few lines of just repeated " ...too much output!" in the data, and since in pretty much all other cases "too much output!" ends the line, it doesn't have very many ways to continue.
18:38:46 <fungot> Selected style: darwin (Books by Charles Darwin -- you know, that evilution guy)
18:38:50 <CakeProphet> my laptop overheats easily on my bed when I'm doing things such as constructing markov chains.
18:39:08 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: laccadive group. we can seldom understand their action./ cause :) this remarkable plant, an inhabitant :)/ antarctic voyage :) h.m.s. :( fly", as naturalist, i never saw a bee even looking at one. there are other inconsiderable ones) on this eastern side are fighting with rosas./ general public.
18:39:16 <elliott> fizzie: Fair enough. (How is that not treating them all as a single utterance?)
18:39:20 <elliott> Anyway dude this is the most amazing.
18:39:55 <elliott> "gnu project has written things like airline software and the internet"
18:40:05 <elliott> indirect casulties included... budweiser commercial the best character,
18:40:05 <elliott> you are an hypocrite ehird, you are an hypocrite ehird, what the heck
18:40:05 <elliott> has tar files got to do with anything? ehird, i never needed macros for it
18:40:27 <fizzie> It's not "treating them all as a single utterance" because it's not. It's just that the stopping has very little to do with actual line endings; it only stops where it's possible, but the likelihood is taken from the current length. (And I think it might be a bit buggy.)
18:40:38 <fizzie> Well, if you insist. Will take a moment.
18:41:16 <elliott> elliott@katia:~/logs$ grep -r '^..:..:..: <fungot>' . | sed 's/.*<fungot> //g' | wc -l
18:41:17 <elliott> elliott@katia:~/logs$ grep -r '^..:..:..: <fungot>' . | sed 's/.*<fungot> //g' | egrep -v '^\w+: ' | wc -l
18:41:18 <fungot> elliott: table 4? 35. (/ naturalist on/ amazons,' 1863, p. 18). therefore :( i arose" " judges v. 7),/ females would have been short and broken with/ inspirations prolonged; and this is/ case with/ many little bladders filled with water, sixty-one leaves were tried with/ glycerine extract :) pancreas with a negative result. nor is it easy to measure/ strength :)/ stimulus from/ friction :) one wing over/ other.
18:41:19 <fungot> elliott: at/ present day, for they do not alight on people's arms, nor do they care for, or dislike/ subject, i do hope you will let us know what is/ meaning :) experimental science./ fnord, forms a passage from/ one form, and yielded plenty :) seeds.
18:41:30 <elliott> fungot: I sort of wonder what it would look like without the babble lines but am not sure I want to know.
18:41:30 <fungot> elliott: shan ponies, striped. -scorching :) dark. -effect :) subsidence. these rings appear very ancient, and are generally ruptured rather than yield. if not published by/ second standard as 100 to 85.
18:41:58 <CakeProphet> Parsing /media/Elements/googlebooks-eng-1M-*.csv...
18:42:18 -!- sadhu has left ("Leaving").
18:42:34 <fizzie> A moment and a reboot, in fact.
18:42:40 -!- fungot has quit (Quit: oh no!).
18:43:00 <fizzie> Some day I'll make that thing reloadable.
18:43:18 -!- fungot has joined.
18:43:23 <CakeProphet> help wildcard expansion isn't working hlep
18:43:23 <fungot> Selected style: fungot (What I've said myself)
18:43:34 <fungot> elliott: anmaster: " no" to give an idea, that is)) did we look?" said lady. ' why, this is for you guys are a lot
18:43:40 <fungot> elliott: ais523: that is cfunge output fail in firefox is also a useful idea to send it in more interesting things in a interpreter for an arbitrary bf program? :) htmlprag?' questions. will you and the pogo hammer.
18:43:48 <elliott> fizzie: Oh good, you didn't strip the names. :p
18:44:18 <fizzie> No. But it's funny, I don't think I saw them much in the Perl script output.
18:44:43 <fizzie> Maybe the Perl script doesn't actually put in the sentence-start token for the initial context.
18:45:10 <CakeProphet> Parsing /media/Elements/googledata/googlebooks-eng-1M-1gram-20090715-0.csv...
18:46:01 <fizzie> fungot: Actually you are really rather nickpingy, maybe I should prune those?
18:46:01 <fungot> fizzie: ais523: that is cfunge output fail in firefox is also a useful idea to send it in the files that were given to a data structure thats so tuned to the same without the space the same without the aid of the law, there is no
18:47:28 <CakeProphet> so I could take my laptop other places while I'm doing this.
18:47:52 <CakeProphet> also wireless external. That would be cool.
18:49:22 <fizzie> fungot: Okay, are you a bit less nicky now?
18:49:22 <fungot> fizzie: or is it just me, or i: yet, you rogue! and if you wish! we shall hold this position to the last man! big fire where lavos fall from sky! we
18:49:46 <CakeProphet> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable-order_Markov_model
18:50:53 <fizzie> fungot: You have a variable-order model, don't you?
18:50:53 <fungot> fizzie:, so i'd make stuff up to. why, this is for you guys are a lot. " rasen versus " xtu"
18:51:54 <CakeProphet> 3-order is good for my first time doing this kind of thing ever.
18:52:03 <CakeProphet> perhaps later I will attempt to actually learn what the fuck I'm doing.
18:52:59 <fizzie> It's not like I actually implemented the variable-order model construction; I just used our toolkit. (Some of the older styles are based on fixed-order n-grams constructed with my own horrible script.)
18:54:37 <CakeProphet> granted these are the largest datasets first. The /usr/share/dict sets will take a few seconds each if that.
18:54:54 <fizzie> What's awesome is that if you Google (or at least if I Google; I seem to be logged in for some reason, so this might be personalized) for "VariKN", the first couple hits are for our toolkit, but on place #7 there's "git.zem.fi Git - fungot/blobdiff - varikn/readme.txt".
18:54:54 <fungot> fizzie: just to help an fnord archive)
18:55:40 <Deewiant> An fnord archive is evidently interested in VariKN
18:56:28 <CakeProphet> haha, perl is on top with 352.3 MBs of memory usage.
18:56:33 <CakeProphet> chrome as a whole probably beats it though.
18:56:42 <fizzie> That's not very much for Perl.
18:56:55 <CakeProphet> yes I optimize my Perl code to avoid memory leaks, duh.
18:57:12 <fizzie> 3 gigs of free RAM is not enough to run the in-memory test script on fungot's 'irc' style.
18:57:30 <fizzie> (It's a 200-megs-or-so datafile.)
18:57:46 <CakeProphet> it would be insane to slurp the whole file.
18:58:21 <fizzie> Yes, well, the n-gram tree is what's in the 200-meg file.
18:59:12 <fizzie> 195659600 bytes for that, and 1042812 for the token-index-to-string map.
18:59:30 <CakeProphet> I've actually made some efforts to make these scripts flexible.
19:00:01 <CakeProphet> though I don't know if I will ever end up doing that.
19:01:09 <fizzie> Extract from near the end of tokens.bin.irc: "...zitzitterbewegunggmail.comzleepznznewznolznorkzobufzoey'szomgzzone/zonedzookozoom;zoomablezoomdeskzoomerzoomszootzopzornzoundszowiezreidorzrutyzuber..."
19:04:56 <Ngevd> Wow, SpaceChem is by the guy behind Codex of Alchemical Engineering!?
19:05:02 <Ngevd> I loved that game!
19:10:05 <CakeProphet> can anyone recommend a laptop cooling pad?
19:10:42 <coppro> CakeProphet: Yes, I highly recommend one.
19:11:01 <CakeProphet> most of the ones I'm finding aren't getting very good reviews.
19:12:56 -!- Ngevd has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
19:17:47 <zzo38> Can you please review this program for me? http://sprunge.us/YNJW
19:18:06 <CakeProphet> http://www.amazon.com/Antec-Notebook-Cooler-USB-Powered/dp/B0000BVYTV
19:30:26 <HackEgo> sh: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ sh: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
19:30:31 <CakeProphet> `run perl -e ' print "á" =~ /[[:alpha:]]/'
19:33:14 <CakeProphet> elliott: because that's the character class I use to filter the word data.
19:33:26 <CakeProphet> because there's a lot of non-alphabetic entries
19:33:26 <elliott> á is certainly alphanumeric
19:35:23 <CakeProphet> which is what I use. to filter the word data.
19:35:49 <elliott> Yes, it should match that.
19:36:14 <elliott> fizzie probably knows how to make Perl decode Unicode, IIRC it's not default.
19:37:16 <Deewiant> elliott: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/6162484/why-does-modern-perl-avoid-utf-8-by-default/6163129#6163129
19:37:42 <elliott> Deewiant: Ah yes, so easy.
19:38:03 <Deewiant> Well that's your "Unicode for everything everywhere" solution
19:38:23 <Deewiant> You probably want it in general but you might not need all of it
19:39:10 <elliott> CakeProphet: Yes, just do it without thinking about it
19:39:14 <elliott> "Code that uses [a-zA-Z] is even worse. And it can’t use \pL or \p{Letter}; it needs to use \p{Alphabetic}. Not all alphabetics are letters, you know!"
19:39:41 <CakeProphet> `run perl -e 'print "" =~ /\p{Alphabetic}/'
19:39:47 <CakeProphet> `run perl -e 'print "á" =~ /\p{Alphabetic}/'
19:41:35 <elliott> Deewiant: This list is doing a great job at making me not want to use Perl
19:41:55 <Deewiant> Funny, it had the opposite effect on me
19:42:05 <Deewiant> You don't get that level of Unicode support in most languages
19:42:27 <elliott> Deewiant: Half the entries are "this standard library function doesn't work, use this more complicated library instead for no reason other than backwards-compat"
19:43:05 <Deewiant> For typical languages it's "this standard library function doesn't work, you're fucked"
19:43:05 <elliott> MY favourite language has full ICU support :-P ... although the binding breaks referential transparency, sigh
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19:47:05 <zzo38> If your character does not ride a horse, are you going to ride a huge scorpion instead? (Large scorpion is too small for medium size people to ride)
19:49:13 <fizzie> The \p works because: "-- if the "locale" or "encoding" pragmas are not used and the string is not "utf8", then "[[:xxxxx:]]" (and "\w", etc.) will not match characters 0x80-0xff; whereas "\p{IsXxxxx}" will force the string to "utf8" and can match these characters (as Unicode)."
19:52:28 <elliott> Cake "English-language native" Prophet
19:53:14 <zzo38> Unicode is designed badly, in my opinion.
19:53:26 <Deewiant> More of his stuff on Unicode is at http://training.perl.com/OSCON2011/index.html
19:53:41 <elliott> Deewiant: Don't you understand, Unicode is designed badly
19:54:12 <CakeProphet> hmmmm a lot of these symbols are showing up as squares.
19:55:13 <elliott> Deewiant: Aw, I feel sad for the guy that the question asker was a jerk about it in the comments
19:55:26 <elliott> CakeProphet: "I recommend you get both of two free fonts from George Douros that are known to work: his Alfios font for regular text, and his Symbola font for fancy emoji. As these talks cover Unicode 6.0, you may otherwise have trouble viewing some of the sample characters if you follow along in your own browser. If any of these don’t look right to you, you probably need to supplement your system fonts:"
19:55:31 <elliott> -- http://98.245.80.27/tcpc/OSCON2011/index.html
19:56:05 <zzo38> If I was designing the ASCII code, I would have designed it differently, too; but ASCII as it is, is still OK, although there could be improvement. If I design the character coding, I would put 'A' immediately after '9' for one thing, have delimiters ()[]{} that you can flip a bit to select the open/close other one, but keep a few features of ASCII such as bit flip to uppercase/lowercase, "<=>" order, etc
19:57:17 <zzo38> (The OMEGACOM-1 character set has code 0x00 representing '0' and 0x0A representing 'A'; it uses 0x7F for space)
20:04:20 <CakeProphet> /usr/share/texmf/fonts/opentype/public/lm/
20:10:11 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/rfkfont.png <- this is the 78-character rfk86 character set; but I make no claims for good design. It's not used much either, though.
20:11:43 <zzo38> fizzie: But in what things is it used with?
20:12:05 <fizzie> Only in rfk86, for the NKI messages.
20:12:11 <fizzie> Well, and the web page of it.
20:12:30 <fizzie> (Come to think of it, I think the thing used on the web page has more characters.)
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20:13:59 <fizzie> Yes, the web-font has full latin-1 (I think... the upper half is so messy it's hard to say) as well as the Unicode line-drawing block which starts from U+2500.
20:15:34 <zzo38> I think some of the functions in Parsec are too specific and should be made more generalized, such as these ones: char anyChar satisfy string oneOf noneOf
20:16:24 <zzo38> What does NKI messages means?
20:16:31 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
20:16:51 <fizzie> "NKI" means "Non-Kitten Item", I think it's the official term. It's the messages you get when the robot finds a thing that is not kitten.
20:19:07 <zzo38> elliott: To work with types other than Char (some might require Eq)
20:19:18 <elliott> zzo38: Parsec already supports non-Char
20:19:22 <elliott> You just imported the String module
20:20:04 <zzo38> I imported Text.ParserCombinators.Parsec hiding (many, (<|>))
20:20:11 <elliott> Are you using parsec two or three
20:21:07 <Deewiant> elliott: I think parsec only has 'satisfy' for Char for some reason
20:21:13 <elliott> zzo38: Text.ParserCombinators.Parsec is the backwards compatibility module
20:22:13 <zzo38> Deewiant: Why? It doesn't make sense to me. It ought to work with any type
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20:22:24 <elliott> zzo38: Text.Parsec is parsec-three
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20:25:08 <CakeProphet> my computer is so hot right now I could probably pop popcorn.
20:28:53 <Patashu> http://entropedia.co.uk/generative_music/#b64K1HQUtDQKLGzMzSqAZIWmmpmxmpAhokmAA%3D%3D
20:33:48 <CakeProphet> still have hebrew and spanish left I think.
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20:51:59 <zzo38> Does Parsec include a function that does (foldr1 (<|>) . fmap try) ?
20:56:36 <CakeProphet> I've heard that Haskell has this thing called = that might be similar
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20:57:17 <zzo38> I know what = does, and it doesn't do that
20:57:43 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/l3hhb/good_aslevel_maths_revision_sites_c1_in_particular/
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20:58:29 <zzo38> Deewiant: O, so that is what it does. OK
20:58:32 <Phantom_Hoover> What kind of person thinks "having trouble with A-level maths, I'm sure r/math will know a good revision site."
20:59:12 <Ngevd> Finally seen Flash Gordon
20:59:27 <CakeProphet> elliott: perhaps I didn't make my point very well.
21:01:48 <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.pi314.net/eng/index.php
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21:02:13 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
21:02:15 <CakeProphet> zzo38: elliott: the point being that if Parsec doesn't define such a construct then it's trivial to create the abstraction yourself.
21:02:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: is the best, yes.
21:02:28 <elliott> CakeProphet: That isn't a helpful answer to "does it exist".
21:02:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I don't think you have a true appreciation of the artistry of Comic Sans.
21:03:02 <Phantom_Hoover> centrinia, I should point out that I haven't seen anyone design and deploy an esolang here... ever?
21:03:09 <CakeProphet> I use it on all of my Technical Writing papers.
21:03:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Hey, I've been witness to that happening about three times.
21:03:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Hey, you've seen... one. (Brook.)
21:03:45 <CakeProphet> Phantom_Hoover: as it turns out innovative language design is somewhat challenging.
21:03:53 <elliott> So it might have even been FOUR.
21:04:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: See, that's your problem.
21:04:33 <CakeProphet> Phantom_Hoover: I do have a language that I'm designing at the moment, but to what extent it's esoteric is debatable.
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21:05:04 <CakeProphet> really I think the distinction of esoteric is very close to being a meaningless qualifier, and that this community is centered on language design and computing as a whole.
21:05:52 <elliott> (a) It's not meaningless at all, there are a few concrete definitions that everyone is divided between; (b) esolangs.org certainly isn't, this channel is just off-topic all the time because IRC.
21:06:02 <elliott> (c) Putting letters in parentheses before things makes them true.
21:06:25 <zzo38> I think the string literal syntax in Haskell is a good idea.
21:06:46 <CakeProphet> 1) lists can be a useful means of conveying information b) though there are many different formats and sometimes they can get kind of dense iii.) also number schemes are important.
21:06:46 <Phantom_Hoover> (a) (i) what about using standard exam format (ii) it is the best (b) hello
21:07:05 <CakeProphet> zzo38: ...is there anything remarkable about Haskell's string literal syntax?
21:07:33 <zzo38> CakeProphet: Only that it is better designed than that of other programming language, such as the \& escape
21:08:28 <Phantom_Hoover> centrinia, so what brings you to this channel of wonders?
21:08:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: FSVO wonders
21:08:51 <CakeProphet> Ruby - cheap knockoff of superior Perl strings.
21:09:39 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unsolved_problems
21:09:50 <zzo38> Now there could be other string literal syntax if you wanted to change the escapes, such as by having `~ab which makes a string that is terminated by 'b' and uses 'a' as the escape character
21:09:56 <zzo38> That is very generalized way.
21:10:18 <centrinia> Phantom_Hoover, someone recommended this channel to me.
21:10:20 <CakeProphet> where you put the escape character on the end.
21:10:39 <Phantom_Hoover> centrinia, who? We need to weed them out and kill them, you see.
21:11:02 <zzo38> CakeProphet: Can it always parse correctly if the escape character is at the end?
21:11:06 <ais523> but I don't think it was
21:11:21 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, excuse me, what makes you think you're exempt?
21:11:41 <centrinia> Actually, he merely mentioned that lambdabot is here. :p
21:12:02 <CakeProphet> zzo38: you would have to post-process the string after parsing it.
21:12:34 <zzo38> CakeProphet: That is why I put the escape character at the start.
21:13:02 <CakeProphet> zzo38: ah yes, that could work. But then you lose the benefits of having perl-like quote-like operators which are IMO a better improvement to string literals.
21:13:17 <CakeProphet> unless you did both without making the syntax ugly.
21:14:09 <elliott> Of all the channels lambdabot in, this is definitely the best.
21:14:14 <lambdabot> http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/COMMANDS
21:14:19 <lambdabot> ##freebsd ##logic ##proggit ##villagegreen #agda #arch-haskell #darcs #dtp2010 #esoteric #fedora-haskell #friendly-coders #functionaljava #gentoo-haskell #gentoo-uy #ghc #gp2010 #happs #haskell #
21:14:19 <lambdabot> haskell-blah #haskell-books #haskell-fr #haskell-freebsd #haskell-in-depth #haskell-overflow #haskell.au #haskell.cz #haskell.de #haskell.dut #haskell.hr #haskell.se #hscraft-srv #learnanycomputerlang
21:14:19 <lambdabot> uage #macosx #macosxdev #rosettacode #scala #scalaz #scannedinavian #teamunix #unicycling #uscs2010 #xmonad #yi weird#
21:14:29 <elliott> I wonder why it's in ##freebsd.
21:14:41 <CakeProphet> elliott: some regular was probably just like "dude lambdabot"
21:16:07 <elliott> It's been in here for quite a while though, intermittently.
21:16:47 <CakeProphet> but then why was it here before it was here quite a while? eh?
21:17:32 <CakeProphet> is there anything in a typical Russian word that is not going to match \p{Alphabetic}?
21:18:23 <CakeProphet> or Hebrew, Swedish, Finnish, Polish, Irish, Garlic, <insert somewhat common European language here>
21:18:44 <CakeProphet> I'm just wondering if there's any weird combining marks or something that will get filtered out.
21:18:56 <elliott> Ask Deewiant. Or fizzie. They seem to be the experts. :p
21:18:56 <CakeProphet> I don't know anything about these languages.
21:19:04 <Deewiant> Does that match hyphens and the like?
21:19:06 <elliott> Deewiant: Apostrophes too one presumes
21:19:27 <CakeProphet> I didn't want millions of possessive words from English in the data.
21:19:46 <elliott> So you have "s" as an incredibly common word?
21:20:06 <CakeProphet> er no I exclude anything that is not completely alphabetic.
21:20:26 <CakeProphet> so it ignores all possessive words in English.
21:20:44 <Deewiant> You have to accept at least hyphens anyway
21:21:28 <CakeProphet> also what other non-alphabetic things could I bet missing?
21:22:20 <elliott> CakeProphet: You should really not try and filter anything at all.
21:22:28 <zzo38> I used this code to parse a Haskell character literal: char '\'' *> fmap CharLit (parseSingleChar '\'') <* char '\''; does it seem correct to you?
21:22:34 <CakeProphet> elliott: I think that is more of a bad idea.
21:22:43 <elliott> CakeProphet: I think you are wrong.
21:22:43 <CakeProphet> because there are literally entries for every number used.
21:22:57 <Deewiant> It's used to mark syllable boundaries when one would end up with three identical vowels in a row
21:23:12 <Deewiant> Due to elision of a consonant due to inflection or some such
21:23:20 <elliott> CakeProphet: Just only do English with the basic Latin alphabet if you're not going to do it properly
21:23:38 <elliott> (Which is of course much smaller than the characters required to accurately write all English, but who's counting?)
21:23:47 <CakeProphet> what is "properly". Why would I want a word generator to produce large numbers of 's and things like $133052?
21:24:19 <CakeProphet> I'll just special case the filtering. easy enough.
21:24:34 <Deewiant> zzo38: Note that string literals can contain \& but character literals can't
21:24:57 <elliott> CakeProphet: Properly as in taking care not to fuck up other languages
21:25:10 <CakeProphet> not filtering anything is not the way to do that.
21:25:19 <zzo38> Deewiant: I know. However my program is not perfect, but it works almost all the time
21:25:21 <CakeProphet> because these datasets have a lot of junk that I don't want to include.
21:25:24 <elliott> CakeProphet: Then you can't just drop words with ' in them.
21:26:29 <CakeProphet> the 's is really only something I'm concerned with in English. I'm not going to try to remove possessive cases in other languages because they're not so simple.
21:27:00 <zzo38> This program currently accepts a character literal beginning with \& (such as '\&R') but does not accept a string literal ending with \& (such as "X\&"), so it is not exactly Haskell
21:27:28 <zzo38> I might fix that later
21:27:35 <Deewiant> Correction to my above: it's not only with three identical vowels, it's whenever two or more vowels would join up in such a way that the syllable boundary needs explicit marking
21:28:05 <zzo38> But I doubt it is of any use that anyone needs anything other than what I already have.
21:28:06 <Deewiant> (fi:jok'ainoa = en:every single)
21:28:49 <CakeProphet> I'll probably use a negative lookaround to specifically find possessive English forms.
21:29:53 <zzo38> It makes the (<*) and (*>) useful with Parsec.
21:29:56 <Deewiant> And it does end up in Finnish possessives, with foreign words that end in silent consonants: fi:Bordeaux'n = en:Bordeaux's
21:30:22 <elliott> zzo38: What does \& even do
21:30:35 <elliott> Also, (*>) at least is identical to (>>)
21:30:36 <Deewiant> elliott: \1\&23 = \1 followed by 23
21:30:42 <zzo38> "\&" is identical to ""
21:31:11 <zzo38> elliott: Yes I know (*>) is identical to (>>) and I use (>>) too, which is also useful.
21:31:31 <zzo38> But it is sometimes useful to do it backward
21:31:34 <elliott> Deewiant: This tchrist guy sure knows his stuff but does he always use visually irritating deprecated Unicode for emphasis or is it only in this Stack Overflow question :P
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21:32:11 <Deewiant> IIRC he does use it in at least one of those presentations to which I linked earlier
21:32:14 <elliott> Deewiant: Shit like the small caps characters are just there for backwards compat
21:32:28 <CakeProphet> is there any language that has 's at the end of a word
21:32:55 <CakeProphet> Lojban doesn't count as a thing I care about. :P
21:33:33 <Deewiant> CakeProphet: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Apostrophe#Non-English_use
21:33:54 <CakeProphet> elliott: right I didn't mean to say it doesn't fit the criteria of my original sentence.
21:33:54 <Deewiant> CakeProphet: Dutch plurals, apparently
21:34:00 <CakeProphet> just that I don't care about it regardless.
21:34:22 <elliott> Deewiant: Also In Irish, the past tense of verbs beginning with an F or vowel begins with d' (elision of do), for example do oscail becomes d'oscail ("opened") and do fhill becomes d'fhill ("returned"). The copula is is often elided to 's, and do ("to"), mo ("my") etc. are elided before f and vowels.
21:34:53 <Deewiant> elliott: He only needed one example :-P
21:35:15 <elliott> Deewiant: I suspect one example is more likely to get a "oh well I don't care about that" than two
21:35:15 <CakeProphet> but if I don't filter out possessives I'll get grossness. :P
21:35:33 <elliott> CakeProphet: Do you have any evidence for that
21:35:44 <Deewiant> elliott: Dutch seemed mainstream enough to care about
21:35:48 <HackEgo> Gmacro: <stdout>: commitBuffer: invalid argument (Invalid or incomplete multibyte or wide character)
21:35:58 <elliott> macro is dumber than word in several ways.
21:36:29 <elliott> while true; do echo "'s"; done
21:36:36 <elliott> CakeProphet: Wow, this xacro sure does have way too many 's
21:39:31 <CakeProphet> so the fact that there's probably several tens or hundreds of thousands of possessives in my dataset won't mean that 's appears incredibly frequently at the end of generated words? okay.
21:41:00 <CakeProphet> monqy: waiting on (currently incorrect for many non-English languages) dataset to finish.
21:41:27 <elliott> I wonder if maybe it would go faster if you hadn't written it in Perl.
21:42:46 <CakeProphet> I'm just going to play with the English dataset until I actually know that my algorithm/dataset is good.
21:43:17 <ais523> elliott: I wrote a spambot in less than an hour using Perl; it would have been 20 minutes if I hadn't tested it to make sure
21:43:20 <ais523> well, not really a spambot
21:43:32 <elliott> ais523: I see; why are you telling mE?
21:43:36 <ais523> an email mass-mailer that took a database as input and emailed everyone in it with the rows of the database that applied to them
21:43:43 <ais523> and because you mentioned speed of Perl
21:43:49 <elliott> Running speed, not development.
21:43:54 <ais523> ofc, that's a rather IO-bound task
21:43:58 <elliott> CakeProphet has a dataset of many hundreds of megabytes.
21:44:05 <ais523> ofc, that's a rather IO-bound task
21:44:09 <elliott> As long as he doesn't use C running time is easily relevant.
21:44:12 <ais523> *so development speed was the limiting factor
21:44:21 <ais523> the database was only kilobytes
21:44:23 <elliott> ais523: this is IO bound, too
21:44:35 <ais523> language is mostly unimportant for IO-bound tasks, right?
21:44:45 <ais523> it's the algo that's more important?
21:44:59 <elliott> ais523: Not if you store everything in a Perl hash and use regexps way too much and break words and ..
21:45:10 <ais523> elliott: that just means it stops being IO-bound
21:45:15 <ais523> because your algo is owful
21:45:25 <CakeProphet> what are you talking about my algorithm is awesome.
21:47:04 <ais523> <elliott> s/../.../ <--- I don't think regexes work like that; well, not properly, anyway
21:48:27 <CakeProphet> so.... \P{Number} should work to at least filter out the numeric entries.
21:53:33 <nooga> I want to immediately acquire British accent
21:53:49 <ais523> I don't have a spare, unfortunately
21:54:04 <nooga> maybe elliott has one
21:54:37 <elliott> nooga: We cannot allow that to happen.
21:54:47 <elliott> First we're giving you our accents, next thing you know we're cleaning /your/ windows.
21:56:51 <nooga> I amu notu interesteda ina windowsu, justa the wayu of speakingu
21:57:24 <elliott> Ah yes, nooga is drunk again.
21:57:28 <zzo38> You are going to pump our gas some day
21:57:46 <zzo38> No, I mean elliott
21:57:59 <elliott> zzo38: I will mark it down in my diary.
21:58:14 <zzo38> (And I don't mean mine; I don't need it.)
21:58:45 <monqy> does nooga need pumping
21:59:54 <nooga> maybe I am... at least a bit
22:00:16 <nooga> my surname indicates that
22:00:43 <zzo38> Yes, that must be why.
22:01:36 <elliott> zzo38: i'm confused........
22:04:53 <nooga> Oh, he's kənfjúzd
22:08:27 <nooga> I've just read several novels by HP Lovecraft
22:12:05 <nooga> abnormal and blasphemous and decadent and loathsome and hideous they are
22:14:50 <zzo38> I think I have something about HP Lovecraft in my dream.txt file, I think it was some contribution by someone else
22:15:49 <Vorpal> wow, tried out Morrowind a bit. What a blast from the past in terms of not only the graphics, but also awkward interface design. Somehow even more awkward than in Oblivion. Didn't think that was possible.
22:16:43 <nooga> i hated those.... cliff somethings
22:16:55 <nooga> that I had to kill every two minutes
22:18:00 <nooga> but Oblivion was pretty amusing... until level 5, on which I ended the main quest
22:18:08 <nooga> elliott: in Morrowind
22:18:12 <nooga> yeah, cliff racers
22:27:05 <CakeProphet> `run perl -e "q/'/ =~ /\p{Connector_Punctuation/"
22:27:07 <HackEgo> Missing right brace on \p{} in regex; marked by <-- HERE in m/\p{ <-- HERE Connector_Punctuation/ at -e line 1.
22:27:10 <CakeProphet> `run perl -e "q/'/ =~ /\p{Connector_Punctuation}/"
22:27:20 <CakeProphet> `run perl -e "q/'/ =~ /\p{Dash_Punctuation}/"
22:27:29 <CakeProphet> `run perl -e "q/'/ =~ /\p{Other_Punctuation}/"
22:27:35 <CakeProphet> `run perl -e "q/'/ =~ /\p{Final_Punctuation}/"
22:29:00 <elliott> I suggest not using Scala unless you absolutely have to
22:29:21 <nooga> how about using it for fun?
22:30:07 <Vorpal> <nooga> but Oblivion was pretty amusing... until level 5, on which I ended the main quest <-- I played most of the side quests but never completed the main quest
22:30:28 <Vorpal> nooga, the key point about oblivion is not the main quest. It is the side quests. And exploring the world.
22:30:49 <Vorpal> nooga, presumably the same is true for Morrowind. I haven't really played it enough atm.
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22:37:09 <nooga> Vorpal: I did many quests
22:38:15 <nooga> but the game gets boring when you can use destruction magic, can pick every lock, can kill everyone using bow or sword and are invisible
22:39:00 <zzo38> Then try a challenge game, where you are not allowed to use destruction magic, pick any locks, kill anyone, or become invisible.
22:39:17 <zzo38> Is it possible to complete the game this way?
22:40:44 <zzo38> (If you cannot, then just count how many times you do these things and lower score is better; 0 means you can complete the game even with these things disallowed)
22:53:15 <Phantom_Hoover> But didn't that guy kill all of them Prequel said he did
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23:03:11 <zzo38> Is there a such things as m a -> m b -> m (a,b)
23:03:28 <lambdabot> forall a1 a2 (m :: * -> *). (Monad m) => m a1 -> m a2 -> m (a1, a2)
23:03:36 <lambdabot> forall a b (f :: * -> *). (Applicative f) => f a -> f b -> f (a, b)
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23:24:42 <zzo38> How often is (<*) used with Parsec?
23:29:23 <zzo38> Yes I would think so. It seems to be very useful in parsing stuff.
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23:34:57 <Deewiant> http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/fffd/index.htm
23:35:10 <zzo38> I think it is replacement character
23:35:42 <CakeProphet> that character appears a lot in my markov data.
23:36:28 <CakeProphet> maybe I need to change perl's default settings some more.
23:36:30 <zzo38> The examples of Parsec and source codes of Parsec uses do-notation a lot more than I would have done. But that is OK.
23:37:01 <zzo38> CakeProphet: Maybe you are using the incorrect encoding
23:41:40 <zzo38> How much do you use the Haskell do-notation? I think it is useful sometimes, but mostly I do not use it.
23:42:52 <CakeProphet> I typically use it with "state-like" monads.
23:43:33 <CakeProphet> typically the larger a monadic expression becomes the more likely I am to translate it into a do block
23:43:56 <CakeProphet> but then I usually just break it down with let/where
23:45:37 <CakeProphet> I wonder if I can get away with not doing most of the stuff this guy says.
23:47:08 <CakeProphet> oh hey look I'm not using the version of perl that supports unicode fully
23:47:39 <CakeProphet> why is everything in debian repos so out of date...
23:48:16 <elliott> CakeProphet: You are using testing, right?
23:48:21 <zzo38> I often break it down into separate functions, if it seems to me to be a reasonable way to do it. It has a lot of functions useful for using with monads, including: return >>= >=> <=< join fmap >> <* *> <*> <$> <|> liftM2 mapM sequence when
23:48:24 <elliott> Like I told you to and gave detailed instructions for?
23:48:43 <elliott> CakeProphet: I explicitly told you about it and linked you to a specific ISO and you confirmed what I said.
23:48:56 <elliott> If you're using stable, yes, it's massively out of date; this is what happens when you don't listen to my advice.
23:50:06 <CakeProphet> you're telling me to use the testing repos right?
23:50:15 <zzo38> If you are doing Haskell like it is mathematics but has to be entered the way the computer expects it, then it is doing correct.
23:50:53 <elliott> 08:47:01: <elliott_> CakeProphet: I think the "GNOME desktop" that Debian offers to install is three, so I'd try Xfce first time round.
23:50:53 <elliott> 08:47:12: <elliott_> Oh, and since Debian's site is useless about this --
23:50:53 <elliott> 08:47:41: <elliott_> CakeProphet: http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/daily-builds/daily/arch-latest/amd64/iso-cd/debian-testing-amd64-netinst.iso would be the ISO you would want.
23:50:54 <elliott> 08:47:52: <elliott_> Don't be put off by the testing name; in Debian, stable means "a few years old" and testing means "stable".
23:50:57 <elliott> 08:48:08: <elliott_> (unstable/sid means "beta/alpha-quality" and experimental means "broken".)
23:50:59 <elliott> 08:48:29: <CakeProphet> I don't /use/ a lot of the software I've installed regularly but I've accumulated a shit ton of packages/modules/whatever in various languages that I kind of wanted to have around so I don't have to ever think about them again... but, I guess that's no big deal.
23:51:03 <elliott> 08:48:59: <CakeProphet> amd64? I'm running intel though.
23:51:07 <elliott> 08:49:09: <elliott_> The name of the architecture is amdsixtyfour.
23:51:09 <elliott> 08:49:12: <elliott_> Because they invented it.
23:51:11 <elliott> 08:49:16: <CakeProphet> oh okay.
23:51:13 <elliott> 08:49:23: <elliott_> CakeProphet: And a final helpful tip: You want to do the "Xfce -> expert graphical install". Trust me. Graphical because the terminal interface is ugly, and /expert/ because -- well, you can use the default answer to almost all its questions -- but only in expert mode does it offer to install a sudo-based system instead of a separate root password.
23:51:18 <elliott> 08:49:27: <elliott_> It should be default, but it isn't.
23:51:34 <elliott> CakeProphet: It is true that you can upgrade stable to testing, but you get to figure out the safe commands to do it (hint: it isn't apt-get upgrade).
23:52:07 <zzo38> What do other people say about whatever I said about Haskell like it is mathematics?
23:52:10 <CakeProphet> also note that I'm still on Ubuntu, will this work?
23:52:11 <elliott> Yes, that will magically upgrade your system by editing a text file.
23:52:23 <elliott> CakeProphet: You're still on Ubuntu and... using the Debian repositories?
23:52:27 <CakeProphet> elliott: I just want to get a newer version of perl interpreter atm
23:52:39 <CakeProphet> elliott: aren't I using debian repos because they're upstream?
23:52:47 <elliott> Ubuntu has its own repositories.
23:52:58 <elliott> If you're using Debian repos on Ubuntu, your system is irreparably broken.
23:53:16 <HackEgo> \ This is perl, v5.10.0 built for x86_64-linux-gnu-thread-multi \ \ Copyright 1987-2007, Larry Wall \ \ Perl may be copied only under the terms of either the Artistic License or the \ GNU General Public License, which may be found in the Perl 5 source kit. \ \ Complete documentation for Perl, including FAQ lists, should be
23:53:55 <CakeProphet> Feature "unicode_strings" is not supported by Perl 5.10.1 at ./construct_grams.pl line 4
23:54:42 <CakeProphet> I'm just going to hope that most of this boilerplate is not in fact necessary in my case.
23:56:36 <olsner> if it is boilerplate that's pretty much by definition that it's not necessary
23:57:07 <CakeProphet> it may not be olsner's definition of boilerplate then/
23:57:16 <olsner> (plus grammar, because "that is ... that it is" doesn't really work in english as I know it)
23:57:58 <olsner> anyway, just write a sed script to generate the perl you want