00:13:39 <Madoka-Kaname> http://www.scala-lang.org/node/114 < This would have been useful to know when I was writing packet parsing for a Minecraft server.. I think.
00:18:15 <monqy> i hope the style used in that example isn't idiomatic
00:19:03 <zzo38> Why do you care if it is idiomatic?
00:21:31 <monqy> if I'd ever have to work with scala code, I'd die
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00:43:29 <Patashu> When using php's mysql functions to retrieve values from a database, does it return integers in the datasbase as integers or as strings?
00:44:16 <evincar> Patashu: As integers, so far as I know.
00:44:50 <evincar> Not that it particularly matters, right?
00:45:04 <Patashu> It shouldn't... Something is being wonky
00:46:23 <evincar> What database type are you using
00:46:44 <evincar> No, like MyISAM or InnoDB.
00:47:30 <zzo38> At FreeGeek I have a SQLite reporting program, as well as a separate CGI program allowing it to be accessed by HTTP servers; even write access to databases is permitted.
00:48:08 <evincar> Patashu: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5323146/
00:48:10 <Patashu> Oh, sorry, I don't know, but I'm doing this test: if ((int) $row['enabled'] != 1) in a table where enabled always equals 1, and it's triggering
00:48:42 <zzo38> Why don't you use SQL as a templating language?
00:49:03 <evincar> always returns values as strings.
00:49:09 <evincar> Hooray for typos involving newlines.
00:49:19 <evincar> zzo38: Can you give an example?
00:49:39 <Patashu> if I do (int) $row['enabled'] != 1 does it turn the whole boolean expression into an int or just the left hand?
00:50:02 <zzo38> evincar: It is a program I wrote that allows you do that. Currently the only file is internal use at FreeGeek.
00:51:25 <zzo38> But I can explain how it works. A query block must start with #Q and a SQL statement on a line by itself, and then you can have stuff inside, and #Z is end of block. Everything inside is done for each record of output. Lines without # are copied directly to output except for field names in `...`
00:51:29 <Patashu> nope, it's still ont working
00:51:54 <zzo38> You can use #F to define a custom function, which is given a name and a SQL statement that returns one record with one field.
00:52:48 <zzo38> In a function definition, you can use ?1 ?2 ?3 etc to access function parameters. Outside of a function definition, ?1 ?2 ?3 etc access command-line parameters, and you can use $ and a field name to access a field of the result of the query block that this query is inside of.
00:53:25 <evincar> Why wouldn't you appropriate the stored procedure syntax for function definition?
00:53:40 <evincar> You wouldn't create the functions in the database of course, just in the template engine.
00:53:42 <zzo38> SQLite does not have stored procedures.
00:55:44 <evincar> Well, no, but I think it would be nicer to see "#Q create procedure `name` ..." than "#F name ..." or whatever.
00:56:58 <zzo38> I suppose that if you want to modify the program to support other database engines that do have stored procedures, you can do that.
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00:57:58 <evincar> If you wanted to continue using SQLite, you would just need to parse the "create procedure" statement without passing it to the DB engine.
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00:58:32 <evincar> And then you would have uniform syntax.
01:00:31 <evincar> I was doing research for an essay for class, and I came upon a very interesting study from 2001.
01:00:43 <zzo38> I don't even know how stored procedures work in SQL. SQLite has a function in C which is used to create new functions for use by SQL statements.
01:00:54 <evincar> It was studying the language that non-programmers used to specify solutions to programming-style problems.
01:01:52 <evincar> I think it would be interesting to do some research into making a language that adheres as closely as possible to the expectations of beginners.
01:01:54 <zzo38> But I don't know if database engines other than SQLite support the ?1 ?2 $NAME kind of syntax; these are parameters that you must bind using C functions.
01:02:11 <evincar> I'm not sure. "?" is pretty universal.
01:02:26 <evincar> But I don't know about positional and named arguments.
01:03:37 <evincar> The study found that most people tend to avoid named state, and state in general.
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01:04:13 <evincar> They establish solutions through events, constraints, rules, and declarations primarily.
01:04:27 <evincar> Only those things that need to be sequenced are done so explicitly with imperative instructions.
01:04:39 <evincar> In that sense, Haskell is one of the more "natural" languages out there!
01:04:53 <evincar> Though by no means the most natural...
01:05:40 <zzo38> But even Haskell, by itself, does not have events, and does not support complete rule-based and constraint-based programming either
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01:11:22 <zzo38> I made the program, it represents floating point literals by the integer value and the ten shift. Such as, (FloatLit 5 (-1)) for "0.5" and (FloatLit 42 0) for "4.2e+01"
01:17:39 <Sgeo|web> I think that's more of a scientific notation storage, considering that floating-point would be... what, similar but in a different base?
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01:26:07 <evincar> Sgeo|web: Floating-point is essentially scientific notation.
01:26:21 <evincar> significand * base ^ exponent
01:26:53 <evincar> All IEEE-754 does is specify a packed storage format, and a base (2).
01:28:00 <evincar> zzo38: Haskell is missing those features, certainly. I was making a comment about how people find mutable state and imperative instructions unnatural.
01:29:53 <evincar> Most of the time, natural language refers to things by class specifiers and set operations.
01:30:14 <zzo38> evincar: OK. I might understand what you meant, then.
01:30:15 <evincar> "Do X to all Y that are Z."
01:30:45 <evincar> Another interesting thing is that people expect time to be continuous.
01:31:28 <evincar> So, for instance, animation should be done through physical analogies, totally hiding the fact that timing is not continuous on a computer.
01:40:41 <lambdabot> g = (-) =<< (*) =<< (*) =<< (*) =<< (9 *)
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02:37:49 <zzo38> Is this correctly parsing a Haskell qualified name as you can tell?
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02:37:51 <zzo38> qualifyName :: (Name -> Token) -> Parser String -> Parser Token;
02:38:04 <zzo38> qualifyName f p = f . ExternalName <$> liftM2 (++) (join . fmap (++ ".") <$> (many . try $ liftM2 (:) (oneOf c'upper) (many $ oneOf c'letter) <* char '.')) p;
02:38:52 <zzo38> It seems to work but maybe I missed something in the Haskell specification or something else.
02:40:46 <zzo38> Maybe it is too messy.
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02:43:09 <zzo38> Maybe there ought to be an infix form of liftM2 (++)
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03:06:17 <CakeProphet> zzo38: I once considered the idea of having nested infix expressions
03:10:11 <monqy> is that why you stopped considering it?
03:10:41 <monqy> i guess you could require paren usage or think of some fancy new quotes but there aren't enough quote things for it to work??
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03:10:57 <CakeProphet> monqy: no that actually didn't change my opinion of it at all.
03:12:27 <monqy> ambiguity is bad??? and shouldn't be allowed to happen???
03:12:40 <CakeProphet> so obviously infix nesting just shouldn't be possible without different quoting.
03:13:12 <monqy> `( and )` would be ok for infix expressions imo
03:13:17 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: (: not found
03:16:15 <CakeProphet> monqy: ASCII obviously needs more brackets
03:16:45 <monqy> I'm fine with `( )`; it's the conclusion i came to when i entertained the idea of infix expressions a while back
03:18:39 <CakeProphet> I like the idea of finally incorporating Unicode into programming syntax.
03:22:14 <monqy> "in a way that's not annoying" good luck
03:22:27 <monqy> what do you mean by that anyway
03:26:03 <augur> CakeProphet: agda has latex-like input
03:26:21 <zzo38> I prefer to do it without Unicode since the ASCII is a simpler code and can be typed more easily too.
03:26:25 <augur> if you type \x you get the cross product x, or if you type \to or \-> you get a right arrow
03:26:42 <augur> mind you this is agda mode for emacs
03:27:08 <zzo38> Unless "-" was made a letter the \-> in TeX would be \- followed by > rather than a single control sequence
03:28:10 <CakeProphet> right I think Unicode can be incorporated into programming but it's something you'd have to do in an interface
03:28:11 <zzo38> You can use TeX to print out a program with fancy symbols and bold and everything, such as WEB.
03:28:30 <CakeProphet> for example ctrl/alt or using numpad keys (since I never use those :P )
03:28:33 <zzo38> Input can be plain ASCII and it can work
03:28:56 <augur> zzo38: i said latex-like
03:29:16 <augur> when you type \-> it gets automatically replaced with the arrow
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03:29:30 <zzo38> augur: Does LaTeX redefine "-" to be a letter?
03:29:42 <augur> it looks like latex
03:30:08 <augur> its just an input method for unicode
03:30:21 <augur> it does use all of the standard latex names tho, i think
03:30:28 <augur> so \langle and \rangle work, for instance
03:31:35 <zzo38> CakeProphet: Well, if you have a specific set of symbols you use, you could create a character set for the programming language, and then use CTRL, ALT, and/or function keys, to select the extra characters (you could even have a character with code 1 and use CTRL+A to enter it, for example; or you could use ALT to add 128 so that the high codes in 8-bit are the special ones).
03:31:47 <zzo38> You can convert to/from Unicode if necessary, I suppose.
03:33:19 <zzo38> CWEB will work with Unicode input, but only for identifiers. However you can have macros and formatting codes to make them into operators. (I do not know if WEB has this feature)
03:41:10 <CakeProphet> zzo38: I think Unicode would work best simply because it's an existing standard.
03:41:34 <CakeProphet> I'm must not sure what kind of syntax could be incorporated into a language from Unicode.
03:42:13 <zzo38> CakeProphet: I don't think so. Unicode is badly designed.
03:44:17 <CakeProphet> zzo38: in what ways? badly organized? poor arithmetic properties?
03:44:47 <zzo38> All sorts of things. Those are some of them.
03:44:57 <CakeProphet> either way those are ancillary. it offers a large range of standardized characters that already have fonts made for them.
03:45:13 <CakeProphet> that's really all I would need to incorporate more symbols into the syntax of a language.
03:45:49 <zzo38> Yes; unless you need something that Unicode doesn't have (it does not include the complete Commodore 64 character set), in which case you can still use private use blocks but then you would need a font for them.
03:46:13 <zzo38> And sometimes the way variations are selected in Unicode are not exactly as you might want.
03:46:29 <CakeProphet> ...what does the Commodore 64 character set have that I might want?
03:46:57 <zzo38> Complex scripts result in a lot of difficulties, especially since you need a database to decide what character is processed in what way!
03:47:24 <zzo38> CakeProphet: Probably nothing for what you are trying to make. But it still makes it insufficient.
03:47:53 <CakeProphet> so sufficient = incorporates every arbitrary character set ever made and organizes them sensibly.
03:48:44 <zzo38> Perhaps "insufficient" is the wrong word. But it does make in insufficient for a few uses.
03:52:59 <CakeProphet> I think Unicode is mostly interested in encoding most of the world's writing systems and less about including every computer encoding that ever existed.
03:53:30 <zzo38> It does not even include all writing systems due to people make up their own.
03:54:04 <zzo38> And some people made up the TRON encoding because they dislike the way variation selection works in Unicode (I don't know anything else about TRON).
03:55:11 <CakeProphet> is "oh well it doesn't include every artificial script that <insert some guy> invented" a valid complaint?
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03:55:30 <CakeProphet> also the private use block is probably the best way to handle those situations, really.
03:55:35 <zzo38> No you cannot standardize it.
03:55:41 <zzo38> That is why the private block exists.
03:55:49 <zzo38> But it still means you need specialized fonts.
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03:56:45 <zzo38> And you also need to agree on their use (for many invented scripts, there are organizations which specify which Unicode code points correspond to them, but they are not a Unicode standard).
03:57:15 <zzo38> CakeProphet: You have to just do it on each individual case, I suppose. In some cases simply don't use Unicode if Unicode will not help.
03:58:41 <zzo38> Some telnet clients will support Unicode; some of which are part of a terminal emulator and not really part of the telnet client program itself. However, you can also have telnet without unicode.
03:58:52 <CakeProphet> so two abstract devices that are communicating with unicode start a telnet session at which point they can agree on which scripts/non-standard things they're using. :P
03:59:59 <zzo38> Yes, that is one way. But Unicode does not help this at all.
04:00:22 <CakeProphet> right, how could it? without being telnet, of course.
04:00:23 <zzo38> If you need to agree on what you are using anyways, why do you use Unicode?
04:01:19 <CakeProphet> and it automatically becomes part of Unicode.
04:01:59 <zzo38> I do not quite consider that the best way either; although in some cases, that might be the way to do it.
04:02:03 <CakeProphet> there's machine readable data to help programs handle the scripts and such.
04:02:21 <zzo38> Yes, if it has the complex script data and character property data.
04:02:36 <CakeProphet> ...it was a joke, really. I don't think the problem you're desribing is completely contrived and is one of the inherent problems of any standard.
04:02:48 <CakeProphet> I do think it is completely contribed rather
04:02:56 <zzo38> But of course that requires that the program access the wiki by internet always to access a file!
04:03:05 <zzo38> Which also is not a good way to do it.
04:03:22 <CakeProphet> best solution: the world is perfect. everything does everything the way you want.
04:04:23 <zzo38> The way TeX does it works OK for typesetting; you have a metric file and a METAFONT to generate the font metric and character bitmaps for whatever printer you are using.
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04:05:03 <CakeProphet> so you're saying the Unicode standard could include a way to specify typesetting and script data?
04:05:34 <zzo38> I am saying to ignore Unicode for typesetting.
04:05:53 <CakeProphet> I thought we were talking about Ways Unicode Could Be Better
04:06:50 <zzo38> Unicode works for some things, but you should not always use it, please.
04:07:16 <CakeProphet> I use Unicode for everything. I draw in Unicode.
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04:36:11 <oerjan> An actual on topic esoforum post has been spotted!
04:36:30 <monqy> I completely forgot about the forum
04:36:57 <monqy> hm, it looks like the guy who made brains also made a post
04:37:02 <monqy> good thing nobody cares about brains
04:40:38 <oerjan> "Having decided to invent an extremely innovative and creative esoteric programming language of my own, I spent several days and nights feverishly working on my masterpiece. While taking a break from this, I invented CAPS 4D."
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05:20:16 <zzo38> There are such things as Japanese Korean chess rules, which are the same as Korean Korean chess rules except that it has promotation (which is mandatory).
05:44:23 <lambdabot> Prelude break :: (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> ([a], [a])
05:44:23 <lambdabot> Prelude span :: (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> ([a], [a])
05:44:24 <lambdabot> Data.List break :: (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> ([a], [a])
05:44:33 <lambdabot> Prelude dropWhile :: (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> [a]
05:44:33 <lambdabot> Prelude filter :: (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> [a]
05:44:33 <lambdabot> Prelude takeWhile :: (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> [a]
05:44:48 <lambdabot> forall a. (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> ([a], [a])
05:45:29 <zzo38> I did invent a different character coding that I will use for a different kind of computer. It is a sixteen-bit encoding called FBUCE, compatible with printable ASCII, but far simpler than Unicode. However, you usually will use NK encoding which is compatible with ASCII control characters as well as ASCII printable characters.
05:46:54 <oerjan> Madoka-Kaname: groupBy and sortBy might also be relevant
05:47:29 <lambdabot> forall a a1. (Ord a1) => (a -> a1) -> [a] -> [a]
05:47:56 <lambdabot> forall a b. (Eq b) => (a -> b) -> [a] -> [[a]]
05:48:24 <lambdabot> forall b c a. (b -> b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> a -> a -> c
05:49:00 <oerjan> Madoka-Kaname: oh and ghc has some new list comprehension additions for grouping and sorting which i've never really looked at
05:51:09 <zzo38> There are things that FBUCE intentionally lacks: character properties, complex script support, variation selectors, right-to-left, etc. FBUCE does, however, support the entire Commodore 64 printable character set. Unlike Unicode, FBUCE would hardly ever be used directly; you normally use a mapping table. FBUCE has 512 defined control characters, though.
05:51:21 <oerjan> and something using a Data.Map.Map can also be useful
05:52:38 <oerjan> Madoka-Kaname: note that groupBy only groups _adjacent_ elements, so it may be necessary to use sortBy first
05:52:39 <zzo38> Sorry, I am wrong. It has 256 control characters.
05:53:52 <Madoka-Kaname> @djinn (a -> b -> c) -> (a -> d -> e) -> a -> b -> d -> e
05:54:08 <Madoka-Kaname> @djinn (a -> b -> c) -> (a -> c -> d) -> a -> b -> c
05:54:26 <Madoka-Kaname> @djinn (a -> b -> c) -> (a -> c -> d) -> a -> b -> d
05:54:33 <Madoka-Kaname> @. pl djinn (a -> b -> c) -> (a -> c -> d) -> a -> b -> d
05:55:14 <lambdabot> forall (cat :: * -> * -> *) a b c (m :: * -> *). (Control.Category.Category cat, Monad m) => m (cat a b) -> m (cat b c) -> m (cat a c)
05:55:57 <oerjan> i _think_ that specializes to what you want
05:56:43 <zzo38> Do you mean the (->) category and the (e ->) monad?
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05:58:55 <lambdabot> forall a. (a -> a -> Ordering) -> [a] -> [a]
05:58:57 <lambdabot> forall a. (a -> a -> Bool) -> [a] -> [[a]]
05:59:12 <oerjan> > groupBy ((&&) `on` isSpace) "testing a b c"
05:59:12 <lambdabot> ["t","e","s","t","i","n","g"," ","a"," ","b"," ","c"]
06:00:55 <oerjan> Madoka-Kaname: their first arguments are analogous to compare and (==) respectively, which is why you might want to use "on" with those
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06:08:34 <oerjan> possibly a good one, even
06:09:30 <Ngevd> I have woken up 5 times today
06:09:56 <oerjan> so now you don't have to wake up for the rest of the week!
06:10:25 <zzo38> In here it is night time
06:19:10 <zzo38> I have idea functional program representation. data Exp = Apply Exp Exp | Case [(Pat,Exp)] | Global GlobalID | Local LocalID | Literal Literal | Primitive PrimitiveID; data Pat = Constructor ConstructorID [Pat] | LiteralP Literal | LocalP;
06:21:43 <oerjan> zzo38: aren't you missing a LocalID before ; at the end
06:22:29 <zzo38> oerjan: No. The LocalID would be a type synonym for a number, so you select them in order, I think.
06:22:37 <zzo38> Maybe I am wrong, though.
06:23:02 <oerjan> zzo38: but you need to be able to use them in the Exp part of the Case
06:23:45 <zzo38> Well, yes. Maybe you are correct, it should have LocalID there
06:24:02 <oerjan> or you could use deBruijn indices
06:24:14 <zzo38> What are deBruijn indices?
06:24:42 <Ngevd> Special lambda calculus things destroying the need for variables
06:24:55 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Bruijn_index
06:26:10 <zzo38> Something like that, is what I was thinking of.
06:26:59 <oerjan> the thing about these is that you don't just give each variable a fixed number, but you use a number depending on how far away its binding is
06:27:15 <zzo38> But there is still a difference, due to matching constructors with multiple parameters.
06:27:30 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes I understand that; I did read the Wikipedia article now.
06:27:46 <oerjan> yes. but i guess there you'd just have to count the LocalP's in some order
06:28:23 <zzo38> Yes you would have to count them in some order.
06:31:57 <oerjan> Case [(LocalP, e)] would be how you'd express an ordinary lambda expression, i assume
06:32:14 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes. That is my intention.
06:34:38 <Ngevd> Does anyone know of a python module for multiplying matrices?
06:34:57 <zzo38> The program would be represented by a list of expressions (Exp) and the GlobalID type is an index into the program; exported functions are listed first and are in the specific order.
06:35:32 <monqy> Ngevd: for loops (ahahahahahahahhahahahahhahahahahahha)
06:35:46 <monqy> Ngevd: alternative joke: ask #python (ahahahahhahahahahahahahhahahahhahah)
06:36:03 <Ngevd> I'm tired and I haven't had breakfast
06:36:04 <monqy> I did not count has so I do not know which of those I laughed more at
06:36:14 <Ngevd> So I will ask Python
06:39:14 <oerjan> > let a `mult` b = map (map (zipWith (*)) $ transpose b) a in [[1,0],[0,1],[1,-1]] `mult` [[1,2,3],[4,5,6]]
06:39:15 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `a -> b'
06:42:06 <oerjan> > let a `mult` b = map (\av -> map (zipWith (*) av) $ transpose b) a in [[1,0],[0,1],[1,-1]] `mult` [[1,2,3],[4,5,6]]
06:42:07 <lambdabot> [[[1,0],[2,0],[3,0]],[[0,4],[0,5],[0,6]],[[1,-4],[2,-5],[3,-6]]]
06:42:25 <oerjan> too tired to free the points
06:42:39 <Jafet> > let ass `mult` bss = [[sum $ zipWith (*) as bs | as <- ass] | bs <- transpose bss] in [[1,0],[0,1],[1,-1]] `mult` [[1,2,3],[4,5,6]]
06:42:53 <Jafet> There, Python code for multiplying matrices
06:42:56 <oerjan> ...and to fix the last bug :P
06:43:30 <oerjan> Jafet: you've nested them in the wrong order
06:43:53 <Jafet> Bah, I thought the type system would catch that.
06:44:06 <oerjan> for integer matrices? :P
06:44:11 <Jafet> > let ass `mult` bss = [[sum $ zipWith (*) as bs | bs <- transpose bss] | as <- ass] in [[1,0],[0,1],[1,-1]] `mult` [[1,2,3],[4,5,6]]
06:49:18 <Ngevd> Breakfast time, bye
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06:58:36 <CakeProp1et> @tell Ngevd Dude, numpy, bro. It's what you want. To multiply the matrices.
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07:02:09 <Ngevd> That's what #python told me
07:02:09 <lambdabot> Ngevd: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
07:02:52 <Ngevd> I'm having trouble installing it, though
07:04:36 <CakeProp1et> if you don't it might be in in apt-get under pip or python-pip depending on your -- oh
07:04:54 <Ngevd> I think I've cracked it
07:05:14 <CakeProp1et> I don't think you're allowed to write programs in Windows
07:05:38 <Ngevd> I'm in an off-shore oil platform
07:06:04 <monqy> no the platform is invisible
07:06:06 <monqy> so you can't see it
07:06:38 <monqy> it's a secret platform
07:08:06 <CakeProp1et> monqy: do you use the fenestrated operating system?
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07:08:42 <Ngevd> fenestra is latin for window
07:10:06 <Ngevd> Going to switch to Ubuntu now
07:11:13 <Ngevd> I'm going to try and use DSL
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07:25:09 <CakeProphet> Assange was a hacker in his youth, before becoming a computer programmer.
07:25:18 <CakeProphet> wouldn't it be more likely that he became the latter before the former?
07:25:45 <Ngevd> Maybe he was one of those hackers who just went around calling everything 1337
07:26:13 <Ngevd> And themselves 1337 |-|4><><0rz
07:27:18 <pikhq> You can 'hack' without programming skill, it'll just be very uninteresting hacks.
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08:32:05 <Ngevd> I just followed my old english teacher on twitter
08:32:18 <Ngevd> That is, a person who used to teach me english
08:32:32 <Ngevd> Not a person who teaches me old english
08:32:43 <Ngevd> And not an old person who teaches me english
08:32:55 <pikhq> Though understandable; Old English is not *that* well-attested.
08:33:32 <pikhq> It's not like there's going to be many classes for learning how to understand the small handful of things written in it we have.
08:35:34 <Patashu> There are Old English teachers? Never thought about that
08:36:24 <pikhq> It's certainly plausible.
08:36:57 <Patashu> My mother studies the geneology of our family tree, so she has to read centuries old handwriting all the time
08:36:59 <Patashu> I guess that's not THAT old
08:37:13 <Ngevd> How many centuries?
08:37:32 <Patashu> I dunno, 0-3? I'd have to ask her how far back she's ever gone
08:37:40 <Ngevd> That's still modern English
08:37:45 <Patashu> But I see her squinting at things like church marriage records
08:37:57 <Patashu> Just hard to read because it's all...curvy and slanted
08:38:00 <Ngevd> I tried to do my family tree
08:38:08 <Ngevd> Didn't get very far
08:40:08 <pikhq> She'd probably have as much trouble today if handwriting weren't outmoded.
08:40:24 <pikhq> Let's face it: unless you're careful, handwriting is pretty hard to read.
08:43:09 <Patashu> My handwriting is irredeemably awful
08:43:38 <pikhq> My handwriting's quality depends on language.
08:43:53 <pikhq> My English handwriting? Essentially illegible.
08:44:08 <pikhq> My Japanese handwriting? Merely below average.
08:44:39 <Ngevd> My handwriting's legibility is inversely proportional to how fast I write
08:44:50 <pikhq> And yes, English is my native language.
08:45:21 <pikhq> Something roughly General American.
08:45:35 <Ngevd> I'm roughly general British
08:45:45 <Ngevd> With a small amount of Victorian Australian and Geordie
08:45:52 <pikhq> (General American is an *actual accent*, BTW)
08:46:13 <Ngevd> As far as I know, general British isn;t
08:46:19 <Ngevd> I'm using it to refer to a soft RP
08:46:27 <Ngevd> Hence the lower case g
08:46:39 <pikhq> *That* seems like an actual accent, though. :P
08:49:11 <Ngevd> I still don't understand how Red Hot Chilli Peppers manage to rhyme "bra" and "wall"
08:49:58 <Ngevd> But then again, I can rhyme "vampires" with "stairs"
08:52:45 <Ngevd> And I don't understand how I can do that
08:56:00 <Ngevd> This has given me an idea
08:56:05 <Ngevd> An IPA based language
08:56:20 <Ngevd> That enforces pronounceability
08:58:14 <Ngevd> Including the Bilabial percussive
08:59:45 <Patashu> You can't enforce pronounceability
08:59:49 <Patashu> Unless you have like...a pronounciation police
09:00:16 <Ngevd> All programmers must also record an audio version of their program
09:00:27 <Ngevd> That audio version is the program
09:01:03 <Patashu> So this is a programming language you can't write in any public place
09:01:31 <Patashu> Next, we need a programming language based on the kinect
09:01:34 <Ngevd> Functions are written with a lisp
09:01:39 <Patashu> so that in addition you can't write it while sitting down
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14:56:27 <cheater> Sgeo|web: do you know the qntm guy?
14:57:20 <ais523> hmm, silly news story of the week: Belgian court orders ISPs to block www.thepiratebay.org; this is not actually an URL for the Pirate Bay
14:57:56 <Ngevd> Anyway, cheater, you're supposed to say "the qntm guy!"
14:57:57 <ais523> Deewiant: looks like people are mentally adding/filtering www even nowadays
14:58:23 <Deewiant> ais523: Well of course it redirects to the non-www, but it's still "an URL for the Pirate Bay"
14:58:32 <ais523> Deewiant: it doesn't redirect, apparently
14:58:46 <Deewiant> Oh, that's just my browser then
14:59:02 <Deewiant> But that doesn't matter, it still goes to the pirate bay :-P
15:02:34 <ais523> the student loans website I was trying to visit a couple of weeks ago works with a www and puts up a "down for maintenance" error without one
15:02:37 <ais523> that was pretty confusing too
15:07:35 <cheater> @ask Sgeo|web hey sgeo, do you know the guy running the qntm website?
15:10:29 <lambdabot> Sgeo|web: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
15:12:04 <Sgeo|web> cheater: what exactly are you asking?
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15:17:13 <cheater> Sgeo|web: do you know if he hangs out on irc somewhere?
15:18:45 <Sgeo|web> I think he either does or did, and I don't know where. And I'm not going to devote any energy in helping you cybertstalk him.
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15:24:10 <cheater> no one asked you to devote energy, sillyhead.
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16:59:01 <cheater> hey ais523, do you know the game Neutrino?
17:00:04 <cheater> someone says a sentence, say "Neutrinos are faster than light"
17:00:29 <cheater> the next person has to say a sentence that leads ip to it, that is, something that would make sense if said before that sentence
17:00:40 <cheater> then writes it under the first sentence on a piece of paper
17:00:58 <cheater> then the next person has to add something that makes sense said before the other two sentences
17:01:12 <cheater> then you read it back in the "correct" direction
17:01:59 <cheater> there are lots of ways to score a game
17:02:09 <cheater> but you don't have to if you don't want to
17:02:52 <cheater> basically it's like having a conversation, but back in time
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17:20:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That is not fair you can't just do that.
17:22:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Well why don't you just use a rabbit OH WAIT I FORGOT RABBITS SUCK
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18:33:12 <elliott> "In reality, cats do possess the ability to turn themselves right side up in mid-air if they should fall upside-down." --Wikipedia
18:33:41 <Ngevd> Time to test the buttered cat paradox
18:33:55 <Ngevd> elliott, fetch me your best cat and finest butter!
18:34:07 <elliott> Ngevd: That was from [[buttered cat paradox]], you fool.
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18:36:29 <asiekierka> busy ripping my ISP's online TV stream... http://i.imgur.com/MCr1y.jpg
18:37:00 <elliott> asiekierka: Why the hell are you running that as root.
18:37:07 <Ngevd> Hey, you're the binodu person!
18:37:32 <elliott> asiekierka: Yes, so it'd take a lot much more work to type "sudo " and your password than to just run it.
18:37:40 <Ngevd> I used to be called Taneb!
18:38:08 <ais523> which country's elections?
18:38:18 <elliott> I'm still not sure how that makes running it as root /quicker/, but okay.
18:38:51 <asiekierka> still, it does a good job at annoying nerds like us
18:39:37 <elliott> Generally it isn't other people who get annoyed when your system gets compromised due to running things as root.
18:39:50 <Ngevd> I HAVE JUST HAD AN IDEA FOR AN ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE
18:39:54 <asiekierka> i don't have anything worthwhile for it
18:40:06 <Ngevd> ONE THAT CAN EMBED MANY OTHER ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGES!
18:40:15 <asiekierka> not like you can't copy the plaintext passwords android stores without root
18:40:40 <elliott> I'm... pretty sure you can't.
18:40:50 <olsner> it's important to point it out to anyone doing stuff as root, so that you have the right to say "we told you so" when they do get compromised
18:42:12 <olsner> asiekierka: whether you're already aware of The Dangers is irrelevant, we have to tell you anyway
18:42:31 <asiekierka> feel free to compromise my system, then
18:43:16 <monqy> good ideas for good people
18:43:21 <olsner> but then it'd partially be my fault you get compromised
18:44:09 <elliott> olsner: it's considered acceptable to -- as they call it in the hood -- "own someone's b0xx" -- if they have disclosed they are being an idiot as root
18:44:32 <asiekierka> the only thing running as root right now is a wget process
18:44:50 <asiekierka> if you want to hijack my WRT54GC router, the wifi is open (my DS only supports WEP and WEP is useless) somewhere in Poland
18:45:10 <asiekierka> my ISP's domain name in the IP leaks the town
18:45:19 <asiekierka> as the tablet will be up for 10 more hours
18:46:23 <monqy> "please stop that wget i beg you"
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19:15:52 <elliott> monqy: What's an alphabetical letter.
19:16:31 <monqy> q?????? or maybe q is not an alhbeptical lette.r.
19:16:41 <monqy> a is a safe bet, i think
19:17:31 <elliott> monqy: i went for q but shachaf said ... that that was ... taken ...
19:17:34 <elliott> q is my favourite letter though
19:17:54 <elliott> i dont know he said qhc was taken....
19:18:04 <elliott> also disadvantage of qhc: when module-named as Qhc it's not quite as nice
19:18:27 <elliott> (jhc has this problem too, Jhc is a pretty bad module name, it solves this by putting most things in a different top-level)
19:18:34 <elliott> (like "E", "E" is one of jhc's module names)
19:18:40 <elliott> (well actually I think it's all E.Something but still)
19:18:47 <monqy> what is a letter which looks good as caps
19:19:12 <monqy> and good as lowers
19:19:14 <monqy> yhc seems like the sort of thing that would be taken..
19:21:51 <elliott> monqy: surely even you know about Yhc
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19:22:28 <monqy> i think i saw it somewhere but wasn't sure
19:22:40 <monqy> and I know uhc is taken, I thinjk
19:24:20 <elliott> monqy: i'll just list... all the options..
19:26:15 <elliott> now to filter out the taken ones...
19:26:42 <elliott> monqy: http://sprunge.us/GHiL
19:26:58 <elliott> (shachaf says thc and qhc are both taken by probably-dead projects I think.........)
19:29:33 <monqy> Phc and Thc almost look ok but capital letters are really gross ew
19:30:37 <CakeProphet> I don't see how any of these are more gross than any other.
19:31:42 <CakeProphet> but yeah you definitely want eXtreme Haskell Compiler.
19:32:07 <monqy> yhc and qhc and uhc and ghc and maybe dhc are the best for lowercase
19:32:18 <monqy> nothing is really good uppercase
19:32:32 <elliott> monqy: i linked to the untaken ones...
19:32:37 <elliott> because you just listed... two taken ones....
19:32:48 <monqy> that was intentional
19:32:57 <monqy> comment on aesthetic not what to take
19:33:03 <elliott> monqy: if I was going for thc I would go THC uppercase, but it is... too pun even for me.................................
19:33:17 <elliott> CakeProphet also listed two taken ones
19:33:29 <elliott> phc is pretty nice, and PHC isn't too bad
19:36:19 <CakeProphet> Nhc and Mhc actually isn't too bad, I think.
19:38:43 <CakeProphet> maybe? we're mostly discussing the aesthetics of titlecase haskell compiler acronyms...
19:40:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Did you reserve that name : ' (
19:40:23 <Ngevd> *P*hantom *H*oover *C*ompiler
19:40:33 <elliott> i'm just asking if Phantom_Hoover has actually used it
19:40:50 <CakeProphet> you're asking if there's a phantom hoover compiler?
19:41:02 <elliott> CakeProphet: Stop being dense.
19:41:44 <Ngevd> Does it have to be *HC?
19:42:03 <CakeProphet> well as far as acronym expansion you can pretty much always get away with recursion.
19:42:28 <Ngevd> *CfH = *CfH compiler for Haskell
19:43:01 <pikhq> Better still: HaskellC
19:43:33 <CakeProphet> LHC = Large Hadron Collider Haskell Compiler
19:43:34 <pikhq> Invoking the Gregor compiler notation.
19:43:42 <pikhq> Okay, CakeProphet wins.
19:43:57 <elliott> CakeProphet: I removed LHC from the "unused" list for a reason.
19:44:16 <elliott> pikhq: When has Gregor used that?
19:44:39 <pikhq> That's me being lazy.
19:44:47 <elliott> Anyway, plofc should be a C interpreter written in Plof.
19:45:03 <CakeProphet> elliott: but it's definitely the best name for a haskell compiler.
19:45:10 <elliott> CakeProphet: It's also taken.
19:45:36 <CakeProphet> is it taken by a haskell compiler? I think you're allowed to re-use acronyms
19:46:06 <pikhq> The American Haskell Compiler. 米HC for short.
19:47:17 <CakeProphet> pikhq: LHC would be short for LHC Haskell Compiler, which is short for... yeah.
19:47:49 <Ngevd> Call it "Hird's Compiler for Haskell"
19:47:57 <Ngevd> Then for bonus points port it to Hurd
19:48:49 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: That... Doesn't make sense.
19:49:24 <pikhq> Either that or circle-man.
19:49:47 <CakeProphet> what does that have to do with Jeff Bridges..
19:51:15 <CakeProphet> http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-SSyo7A8y_J4/TlxUY-DMBLI/AAAAAAAAAZc/Z4EeBuTl8AQ/s400/jeff_bridges2.jpeg
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19:52:14 <asiekierka> or ahc - atheist haskell compiler, or ehc - elliott haskell compiler
19:54:18 <CakeProphet> elliott: would it be unacceptable to use all uppercase for the module name?
19:54:27 <elliott> CakeProphet: "Qhc" is unacceptable.
19:54:36 <elliott> Other names may be acceptable uppercase.
19:54:53 <CakeProphet> is that acceptable for naming conventions.
19:55:03 <elliott> For instance phc/PHC is acceptable.
19:55:40 <CakeProphet> I don't really see the problem with LHC. Acronyms are re-used all the time...
19:56:17 <Phantom_Haskell> Help I don't approve of the Darwin Awards any more I liked being a misanthrope :(
19:56:29 <coppro> Phantom_Haskell: what.
19:56:31 <elliott> Phantom_Haskell: Ha, I've been disapproving of them since before it was cool.
19:57:02 <CakeProphet> elliott: me too dawg. I didn't even know it was cool. That's how cool I am.
19:57:41 <asiekierka> elliott call it dhc - dawkins haskell compiler
19:57:48 <monqy> asiekierka shut up
19:58:36 <elliott> I don't even like Dawkins but your bitterness is hilarious.
19:59:47 <elliott> Phantom_Haskell: I liked him well enough but then he was terrible so I didn't any more. (I can elaborate in /msg if you want.)
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20:10:43 <Phantom_Haskell> http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2006/09/has-joel-spolsky-jumped-the-shark.html
20:10:56 <Phantom_Haskell> Waitwaitwait, I though Atwood and Spolsky loved each other.
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20:13:48 <Phantom_Haskell> coppro, have you turned into some kind of antitheist chicken?
20:14:51 <coppro> Phantom_Haskell: dawkins
20:16:16 <elliott> <Phantom_Haskell> Waitwaitwait, I though Atwood and Spolsky loved each other
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20:25:34 <elliott> Phantom_Haskell: That article sure does have high-quality arguments: "At the risk of being rude, Joel is a pompous ass and hasn't said anything interesting for years. He's now also plainly gone completely insane, and the poor old dear should be taken out and shot..."
20:26:14 <elliott> What is words; furthermore, what are typing?
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20:36:57 <elliott> Our long national nightmare is over thanks to tiffany.
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20:39:43 <elliott> I wonder if a lexical context stack is ~as useful as a stack trace for Haskell.
20:39:58 <Phantom_Haskell> "On 11 July 1985, news reporter Peter Jennings interrupted General Hospital for a special news bulletin: After a mere 79 day furlough, the original-recipe Coke was back on the market as “Coca-Cola Classic.”"
20:40:00 <elliott> I guess it's kind of non-trivial in some ways.
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20:40:14 <elliott> Phantom_Haskell: Wouldn't you?
20:42:55 <Phantom_Haskell> <elliott> I wonder if a lexical context stack is ~as useful as a stack trace for Haskell.
20:43:04 <monqy> ~ being "approximately" i assume
20:43:10 <elliott> Phantom_Haskell: Yeah what monqy said.
20:43:14 <elliott> I do that all the time man jeez.
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21:16:56 <CakeProphet> what if elliott and I were actually the same person
21:17:16 <elliott> It would be a miracle that I managed to say all my stupid lines under a different name.
21:17:33 <monqy> for the reason elliott said
21:17:48 <monqy> you'd have to be a very good actor!!
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21:19:29 <CakeProphet> you'll never know whether or not elliott and I are the same person.
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21:20:00 <elliott> I'm so glad I remembered to say that in my Stupid Window.
21:21:22 <elliott> monqy: Did you pick a letter.
21:22:45 <monqy> no im bad at choices
21:23:45 <Patashu> http://t.co/euelGmPG hello what is this
21:23:54 <elliott> phc is kind of tempting but Phantom_Haskell will never let me rest.
21:24:02 <elliott> Although I'm tempted to go with Atheist Haskell Compiler just for the hilarity.
21:24:45 <Deewiant> You're implementing Haskell now?
21:24:47 <Patashu> it's like someone took php and turned it into javascript, or C#
21:24:59 <elliott> a = select name from foo where id < $n
21:24:59 <elliott> foreach(a as key: value) {
21:24:59 <elliott> echo "row: " + key + " name: " + value.name
21:24:59 <elliott> I'm not actually sure how this is related to PHP
21:25:28 <elliott> Deewiant: Shut up I've had like two successful projects in a row that I'm still going at I can THINK BIG now I have mastered project management.
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21:26:01 <monqy> mchost, elliottcraft, @
21:26:27 <monqy> trying to type ahh but it came out wronge
21:28:28 <elliott> Totally demand Deewiant retract his indignance
21:28:44 <monqy> is mchost successful?
21:28:57 <Deewiant> I wasn't indignant, I just forgot about shiro
21:29:12 <elliott> monqy: It's at a pretty good stage and has had sustained development for quite a while, so sure
21:29:25 <elliott> Obviously it's not "done" but neither is Shiro :P
21:29:28 <Patashu> woah, what the hell? jigglypuff is top tier in ssbm now
21:30:45 <elliott> Hmm, I think a lexical context stack in Haskell is really easy
21:30:57 <Patashu> http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=294748
21:31:24 <elliott> Just push name, file, line and column information whenever you see a definition, and pop it when it ends, and the stack's state when you look at a definition is the lexical context.
21:31:26 <elliott> You can even include lambdas.
21:31:38 <CakeProphet> Patashu: my guess is some kind of lame infinite chaingrab combo thing
21:31:54 <Patashu> maybe people figured out how to use rest proly
21:33:42 <Phantom_Haskell> It used to be because she had one or two boring air combos.
21:34:04 <CakeProphet> (unrelated) ness has the best air moves in brawl...
21:34:13 <CakeProphet> er, I mean, not the best. they're just good.
21:35:14 <Phantom_Haskell> This sounds like the kind of unsettling thing Madoka-Kaname says.
21:36:26 <Phantom_Haskell> CakeProphet, yes, what monqy said, we all know Ness is from whatever it was called.
21:39:19 <CakeProphet> in much the same way that everyone is Anglo-Saxon in LotR.
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21:45:03 <CakeProphet> New Pork City is a deep metaphorical exposition on obesity in America.
21:45:37 <CakeProphet> I'm currently writing my thesis on symbology in the earthbound series.
21:47:39 <CakeProphet> does anyone die and then come back to life to save the world?
21:52:12 <zzo38> Can any Haskell compiler have something to compile into like the representation I have described for functional programming? It is not the same as GHC Core; mine lacks unsafe functions, casts, let, source info, and other things. The program is a list of expressions, a GlobalID indexes the program, and exported functions are given GlobalID numbers.
21:53:44 <zzo38> Would you know how such a thing could be made, or whether any Haskell compiler has similar features?
21:56:18 <CakeProphet> zzo38: I would need to know more about the intermediate form and how it works to answer the first question. and no I don't know the answer to the second question
21:57:41 <elliott> CakeProphet: You can transform let to lambda.
21:57:48 <elliott> You can even then eliminate lambda by doing lambda-lifting if you want.
21:58:15 <zzo38> I posted the representation I had idea of, on this IRC, yesterday.
21:58:21 <CakeProphet> elliott: I thought about lambda but how do you do things like mutual recursion?
21:58:29 <elliott> Well, that was let, not letrec.
21:58:45 <elliott> CakeProphet: Just float them to the top level with lambda-lifting.
21:59:04 <zzo38> It did not actually have lambdas, instead it used Case [(LocalP, e)] for a lambda expression.
21:59:10 <elliott> e.g.: Add every variable in scope as an argument to the definitions in the "let", float out to top level, eliminate unused parameters.
22:00:07 <zzo38> And a global is still capable of referencing itself; it also has support to have primitives if you need them.
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22:54:53 <monqy> P is better than Q in this font at least but q is better than p aaaghhh
22:55:13 <monqy> especially next to h, q is so much better
22:55:24 <monqy> by next to i mean as in qh not hq
22:55:46 <CakeProphet> ITT: worry about frivolous things. make bad burns.
22:56:00 <Madoka-Kaname> My screen blanked, and I tried to issue a clean shutdown.
22:57:04 <CakeProphet> I like how the alternating case doesn't alternate across double consonants.
22:57:27 <CakeProphet> since we're discussing the aesthetics of letters and case.
22:58:50 <elliott> Madoka-Kaname: is that your pass
22:59:03 <elliott> Madoka-Kaname: learn to reisub nub
23:00:17 <elliott> Madoka-Kaname: echo 1 > /proc/sys/kernel/sysrq
23:01:06 <elliott> Madoka-Kaname: echo '/proc/sys/kernel/sysrq = 1' >>/etc/sysctl.conf
23:01:42 <elliott> echo 'sys.kernel.sysrq = 1' >>/etc/sysctl.conf
23:02:08 <elliott> do it now or i will most verily get mad
23:03:20 <elliott> else... maybe... cat /proc/sys/kernel/sysrq??????
23:04:06 <CakeProphet> also I dislike remembering your obscure acronyms.
23:04:59 <CakeProphet> also I believe I've already mentioned tihs
23:05:07 <CakeProphet> but I don't own a Target Identification and Acquisition System.
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23:39:53 <elliott> and then Phc/PHC or Qhc/QHC for the module name
23:40:14 <elliott> phc -- the open source PHP compiler
23:40:15 <elliott> 20 Sep 2011 – What is phc? phc is an open source compiler for PHP with support for plugins. In addition, it can be used to pretty-print or obfuscate PHP code, ...
23:40:19 <elliott> monqy: oh man, now you only have one question to answer
23:40:44 <elliott> is that aaaaaaaaa to the question or to phc
23:40:47 <monqy> they're both ugly in their own special ways ;_;
23:41:41 <monqy> Qhc is imbalance but QHC has lots of caps
23:42:02 <monqy> what do the other compilers use?
23:42:12 <monqy> inconsistent across them?
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23:43:12 <elliott> jhc uses Jhc for like primitive parts of its standard library, and unprefixed things for others like FrontEnd.Blah and E.Blah; GHC uses GHC for primitive parts of its standard library and non-portable stuff, and maybe parts of the compiler I dunno, and doesn't have a prefix outside of that
23:44:59 <elliott> I could look at UHC I guess
23:45:03 <elliott> even if it is.... Utrehct.............
23:45:08 <elliott> monqy: oh and Yhc uses Yhc but it's /called/ Yhc
23:45:13 <elliott> (jhc is called jhc and GHC is called GHC)
23:46:32 <elliott> wow how the fuck is this thing organised
23:46:48 <elliott> ok i have no idea about uhc
23:49:58 <elliott> monqy: qhc or QHC HELp[;,............
23:50:04 <elliott> i'm leaning towards Qhc because QHC yuck
23:51:20 <monqy> im bad at leaning when both are so yukc.....but if there must be a choice,,,
23:52:05 <monqy> if only lowercase module names :(
23:52:18 <monqy> qHC (dont worrY: im just kidding)
23:56:33 <elliott> CakeProphet: except the name of the compiler is qhc