00:10:11 <tswett> elliott: technically, every number has a precise value.
00:10:20 <elliott> tswett: That doesn't mean we know it.
00:10:50 <zzo38> But the speed of light has a precise value because the units are defined that way.
00:12:43 <pikhq_> tswett: Unlike most physical quantities, the speed of light has a perfectly known value.
00:13:10 <pikhq_> It is 299,792,458 meters per second precisely.
00:13:47 <pikhq_> (however, the meter and the second have never been *precisely* measured)
00:17:48 <shachaf> elliott: You're writing qhc, eh?
00:18:12 <elliott> Yes. Unless you can prove to me that the name qhc is actually being used in which case I'll be writing some other letter followed by hc.
00:24:28 <elliott> Hey shachaf, write my parser for me.
00:24:45 <shachaf> elliott: You should use Trifecta!
00:25:02 <shachaf> elliott: sorear was the person who was talking about "QHC" a few years ago, but I think he's lost interest in Haskell.
00:25:13 <elliott> Isn't sorear the TAEB guy?
00:25:33 <shachaf> elliott: edwardk will be happy if you used trifecta to write your parser.
00:25:40 <elliott> No, he's literally just the TAEB guy. And the only reason he's the TAEB guy is because ais is also the TAEB guy.
00:25:53 <elliott> shachaf: I'm aiming for self-hosting with no language extensions.
00:26:08 <elliott> shachaf: I don't feel like examining Trifecta's ten thousand dependencies to find out how hard it would be to make them standard.
00:26:35 <shachaf> elliott: But it's the best library ever.
00:27:03 <elliott> shachaf: I'll rewrite the parser once I get around to writing my parser combinator library.
00:27:29 <shachaf> Great, so you can use trifecta until then. :-)
00:27:33 <shachaf> Will your library be better than trifecta?
00:29:21 <elliott> shachaf: It's going to be based on the parsing-with-derivatives stuff.
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00:29:45 <elliott> With nice diagnostics (I was into this before trifecta came along, okay) and ~streaming~.
00:30:00 <elliott> So it should be able to parse any CFG, the less ridiculous the more efficient.
00:30:06 <shachaf> Do those tildes form a little stream?
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00:30:40 <shachaf> elliott: You should improve the library for https://github.com/orenbenkiki/yamlreference/blob/master/Text/Yaml/Reference.bnf
00:31:04 <elliott> But I don't like yaml. :( Also, I think I've seen that parser before.
00:31:12 <elliott> Or at least something with the same syntax.
00:31:20 <shachaf> How can you not like YAML?
00:32:17 <elliott> I'm a soulless shell of a human being.
00:34:53 <elliott> shachaf: Hey, what's a good interned string library.
00:36:12 <shachaf> Does that mean it's good, or does that only work for Trifecta?
00:37:36 <elliott> shachaf: It depends on at least type families.
00:37:40 <elliott> I don't want to implement type families.
00:37:52 <shachaf> Type families are all the rage, man.
00:38:05 <shachaf> You're not going to restrict yourself to boring old Haskell 98, are you?
00:38:13 <elliott> Two thousand and ten to start with.
00:38:13 <shachaf> You know who else restricted himself to Haskell 98?
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00:38:23 <elliott> I'm kind of planning a pure-type-system approach, so type families shouldn't be /that/ hard, really.
00:38:53 <elliott> shachaf: ...but I still want to keep the compiler pure Haskell, so it can bootstrap nicely from other things.
00:39:26 <shachaf> elliott: Write a QHC-Haskell-to-plain-Haskell compiler.
00:40:18 <shachaf> Alternatively, do the thing kmc always talks about where you compile to bytecode and then have a portable ANSI C bytecode interpreter.
00:43:05 <elliott> shachaf: How is that better than having a portable C backend?
00:45:42 <shachaf> Are you going to be writing a portable C backend?
00:45:55 <shachaf> elliott: What's the state of qHc right now, anyway? Is it anything other than an AST?
00:46:06 <elliott> shachaf: It's an AST, but in fairness I've only worked on it for like a day.
00:46:21 <elliott> shachaf: Next up is a parser-sans-layout because I can't be bothered to deal with layout.
00:46:25 <zzo38> Kinds appear to be missing from what you have
00:46:33 <elliott> Kinds aren't part of the language.
00:46:37 <elliott> Well, they are, but not the AST.
00:47:45 <zzo38> I wrote a parser for Haskell, which also does not deal with layout. However it has a few other restrictions too.
00:48:59 <shachaf> elliott: Trifecta makes layout so easy!
00:49:06 <elliott> shachaf: That is CHEATING.
00:49:18 <shachaf> elliott: Seems ideal for you, then.
00:49:40 <shachaf> "I resent that! I don't deny it, but I resent it!"
00:52:31 <elliott> "Reports that Geoffrey and I and the sound engineers were buried in a subterranean studio for weeks on end, taking as long to produce a single sound effect as other people took to produce an entire series (and stealing everybody else’s studio time in which to do so), were all vigorously denied but absolutely true."
00:57:39 <zzo38> Another problem with the Haskell parser I wrote is that the error messages do not always make sense.
01:01:00 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/RYSW
01:01:30 * Sgeo|web decides that his "omniscience paradox" is pretty much just the same thing as "Is the answer to this question 'no'?"
01:02:11 <elliott> That looks a bit overly short for being a Haskell parser
01:02:14 <elliott> What limitations does it have beyond no layout? :P
01:03:04 <Sgeo|web> So much for disproving omniscient beings with math bluh
01:03:25 <zzo38> You are not allowed to have \& at the end of a string literal, and floating point numbers must have a decimal point, whether or not the exponent is specified. In addition, quasiquotation uses Haskell syntax instead of its own.
01:03:45 <elliott> zzo38: I don't see any handling of e.g. data declarations
01:04:03 <zzo38> It only parses into tokens and groups of tokens, so far. I can add ASTs later.
01:05:25 <zzo38> The things I currently have are also a bit messy and I can improve them a bit, at a later time.
01:07:04 <zzo38> But I intended to use it for a preprocessor and not using all the syntax; for example the "o" and "x" in "0o" and "0x" must be in lowercase, and the hexadecimla "ABCDEF" must be uppercase. But I have added some extensions, such as the ability to specify integer literals in binary.
01:10:12 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Quantum_mechanics&curid=25202&diff=454965738&oldid=454857120
01:12:57 <Sgeo|web> How is ABCDEF *gets shot* coming along?
01:13:43 <Sgeo|web> Adjudicated Blind Collaborative Design Esolang Factory
01:18:47 <zzo38> I can tell you something about the D&D session I played today: Neither of us used any class features during this session (although both of us have used some of the racial abilities).
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02:00:30 <zzo38> I have still not selected the two spells from next experience level. (They can be up to 3rd level)
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03:04:52 <zzo38> In the Dungeons&Dragons game, once I wanted to tie a note to a rock to throw it through a window so that they can read it. I had no writing equipment, so instead I looked through a book I had for a similar phrase, tore it out, and tied that to the rock.
03:05:18 <pikhq_> Should've prepared exploding runes.
03:05:39 <zzo38> I intended them to be read, not exploded!
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03:08:20 <zzo38> I did not intend them to explode. I was not intending to damage anyone, but I had to break the window to get the message through (I could not actually get anywhere near the window, due to magic fog). I do not know that spell, do not have a spellbook, and do not want to waste the magic.
03:09:51 <zzo38> Also, I wanted to be able to repair the book afterward.
03:09:58 <pikhq_> Still should've prepared exploding runes.
03:12:00 <zzo38> You mean, if you had it your way, it would. And then it would have exploded *you*.
03:12:13 <coppro> "Guess which spell I prepared this morning"
03:13:33 <zzo38> Death to the Caster.
03:14:50 <zzo38> What do you think would be the way to design variations on the Mount spell to summon different mounts?
03:16:01 <calamari> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/META_II
03:17:03 <zzo38> O, so it means, VALGOL I and VALGOL II are separate from VALGOL.
03:17:23 <zzo38> (As well as different from each other, too.)
03:18:21 <zzo38> And it is the first virtual machine; that is also interesting to know. As well as some of its other features.
03:23:38 <Patashu> I just came up with a craaazy idea: You know how you can 'fingerprint' people by their gait? I was thinking of 'fingerprinting' people who make rhythm game levels by asking for them to make a 'stream' of a few hundred notes in row, analyzing it markov chain style and then applying it to other streams they make
03:23:42 <Patashu> Since everyone does it a little differently
03:23:48 <Patashu> You could even use it to make streams for you and save time
03:25:03 <zzo38> Yes, if you are satisfied with markov chain generated stream, it would work, I suppose.
03:31:00 <zzo38> I did not record the experience totals for the D&D game yet, but can you try to guess the difference between mine and my brother?
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03:35:51 <zzo38> I have an idea of a D&D single use magic item that allows you to use a single black card of your choice from the deck of many things; the target must be the same as the user.
03:36:12 <zzo38> (Red cards and jokers are not permitted in this case)
03:42:40 <zzo38> Once someone attempts to use it (a standard action provoking attacks of opportunity), they will know what it is and what the choices are, but is not forced to use it immediately; you are permitted to delay its use indefinitely, but it can only be used once. Once it is identified, it can be activated as an immediate action.
03:43:59 <zzo38> How much do you think it would be worth?
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03:56:31 <zzo38> Next time, instead of the "Adjudicated Blind Collaborative Design Esolang Factory", you can make up the "Adjacent Blink Collated Deserted Esoteric Factoids".
04:32:39 <zzo38> "Catch-22 (logic): In need of something which can only be had by not being in need of it." A computer game I once had included something like this. Someone tells you that they will give you two water energies, but only if you don't need it. However, in that game, you are permitted to lie and they will believe you.
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04:55:46 <elliott> shachaf: Trying to think of a decent first approximation of a name representation.
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04:56:01 <elliott> This is to distract myself from the fact that Haskell's grammar is awful.
04:56:15 <shachaf> elliott: You should call it by some untypeable Unicode name.
04:56:24 <shachaf> That way only people like kmc can use it.
04:56:42 <elliott> Well, "qhc" is untypeable with a sufficiently non-English keyboard.
04:56:45 <elliott> And it's certainly Unicode.
04:56:53 <shachaf> elliott: Can you fix all the bad things about Haskell while you're at it?
04:56:57 <elliott> If kmc uses an English keyboard, we're all set.
04:57:11 <shachaf> What language is @ written in?
04:57:16 <shachaf> Does @ transcend language?
04:57:33 <elliott> @ constitutes a self-hosted @lang environment.
04:57:39 <elliott> The @lang compiler will be written in @lang.
04:57:43 <shachaf> elliott: Can you get rid of the arrow in lambda syntax?
04:58:04 <elliott> Probably there will be a lower-level language underlying it, say @ll, that the @lang compiler compiles down to, and that certain sections of low-level code are written in.
04:58:05 <shachaf> That thing always bothered me. It's not as if it's a huge compatibility issue or anything.
04:58:22 <elliott> And obviously bootup/low-level allocation/scheduler code will be platform-specific assembly.
04:58:26 <elliott> shachaf: And replace it with what?
04:59:17 <elliott> shachaf: What's (\f x f x)?
05:00:32 <elliott> shachaf: Wait, I know the answer: No.
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05:06:05 <lambdabot> forall a b (f :: * -> *). (Functor f) => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
05:06:24 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `('
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05:15:23 <zzo38> Someone said there is some possible personality effects based on the month you are born, according to New Scientist. What is the title of the Wikipedia article relating to that study? Obviously you still have to be careful, to do statistics accurately and so on
05:15:50 <zzo38> Is the season related? Is cultural effects related?
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05:18:39 <Jafet> My money is on seasonal TV programming.
05:19:54 <zzo38> Yes, maybe. Of course you also should remember, that usually the birthday is celebrated close to the actual date of each year of their actual birthdate.
05:21:19 <zzo38> Maybe that has something to do with it too.
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05:25:43 <Madoka-Kaname> Seasonal TV programming cycles too fast, and birthdays happen to little, I think.
05:29:07 <zzo38> Yes, possibly. Do you have the report?
05:31:25 <Gregor> When my registrar is emailing me that codu.xxx is available, that's a problem.
05:33:18 <elliott> `addquote <Gregor> When my registrar is emailing me that codu.xxx is available, that's a problem.
05:33:22 <HackEgo> 706) <Gregor> When my registrar is emailing me that codu.xxx is available, that's a problem.
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05:34:44 <zzo38> Sgeo|web: What about Rule 34 applied to music?
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05:35:21 <zzo38> Gregor: Register it without including an HTTP server (or at least, not on port 80)
05:35:37 <shachaf> elliott: I take offense to that!
05:35:43 <shachaf> There's nothing legitimate about them.
05:36:32 <Sgeo|web> zzo38: That's what I presume codu.xxx would partially contain
05:36:52 <Gregor> Or ... just make porn *shrugs*
05:37:21 <elliott> Gregor: Have you registered it yet.
05:38:36 <zzo38> No, I think you should leave port 80 unused on that server.
05:38:53 <elliott> Gregor: zzo really doesn't want you to have an HTTP server.
05:42:15 <zzo38> No, I just don't want you to have an HTTP server on the "codu.xxx" server.
05:42:29 <zzo38> (Regardless of its contents)
05:44:20 <zzo38> Because of the stupid TLD system.
05:45:08 <elliott> What has that got to do with HTTP
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06:18:53 <calamari> zzo38: so new scientist is supporting astrology?
06:20:22 <zzo38> calamari: No. It was doing a statistical study of the months people are born (nothing to do with stars). I do not know the details; but I have some guesses as to what can effect it.
06:23:04 <zzo38> Obviously it does not make sense to plot the IAU zodiac on a horoscope; because only the angular zodiacs are suitable for that purpose.
06:23:12 <calamari> "Sun sign astrology is the form of astrology most commonly found in many newspaper and magazine columns. It is a simplified system of astrology which considers only the position of the Sun, which is said to be placed within one of the twelve zodiac signs depending on the month of birth. This sign is then called the sun sign or star sign of the person born that month."
06:24:32 <Patashu> Nah it's more like, if you're born in month X you're more likely to have <this defect>
06:24:40 <Patashu> Because of how it lines up with the seasons and biologicallyness
06:25:04 <zzo38> calamari: That is true, which means that of course the sun signs have correlations with the months! It means nothing else.
06:25:14 <zzo38> Patashu: Yes, it is the kind of things I was thinking of.
06:26:14 <zzo38> That is, seasons. For example, some people say that if you are born in summertime you might be outside more because your parents would be outside more.
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06:28:40 <zzo38> Like how in ancient times they predicted the flood by the stars, what they were effectively doing is using the stars as a calendar, although they might not have known that at the time. Science was not invented back then, so people had different beliefs.
06:33:03 <zzo38> Patashu: What do *you* think? Do you have any specific examples, as well as their values of statistical correlation, what kind of sampling is done, and so on, etc, ?
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07:24:45 <zzo38> I have looked up information for eclipses and computed horoscopes for them, hiding everything except the sun, moon, north node, and the first five aspects. The north (or south) node is in range as described on Wikipedia, and the sun and moon are as expected; the sun and moon are at the same position in a solar eclipse, and opposite in a lunar eclipse. (The only aspect used is opposite, for lunar eclipses.)
07:27:46 <zzo38> The solar system view would also make it apparent, except that the zoom level is wrong.
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11:27:30 <tswett> pikhq_: well, the second also has a perfectly known value.
11:27:51 <tswett> It's just that the value is pretty annoying to use.
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14:13:23 <ais523> in California: court finds that warrantless searches of people's phones at traffic stops are legal; legislature votes for a new law to ban them; governor vetoes it on the basis that the court found that it was legal
14:13:34 <ais523> err, isn't the whole point of making a new law to change the law?
14:17:45 <coppro> I think that veto won't survive a return trip to the legislature
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14:47:56 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 7 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
14:48:02 <HackEgo> 614) <zzo38> I think Perl is a programming language too. [...]
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15:23:32 <Ngevd> Much happening in the world of esoteric programming?
15:27:14 <Gregor> *exoteric voodoo programming
15:37:23 <Ngevd> Got a friend who believes all programming languages must have a compiler
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15:37:33 <Ngevd> Otherwise they aren't actually programming languages
15:38:38 <ais523> Ngevd: implementation, or compiler specifically?
15:38:47 <Ngevd> Compiler specifically
15:42:52 <Ngevd> I brought up the subject of interpreters, which he rejected emphatically
15:46:08 <Ngevd> What's the difference between Haskell and Literate Haskell?
15:48:20 <ais523> whether they're comment or noncomment by default, is the only technical difference
15:48:31 <ais523> i.e. in Haskell you mark comments, in Literate Haskell you mark the code
15:48:52 <ais523> but Literate Haskell's designed specifically for literate programming, which is noticeably different from regular styles of programming
15:50:15 <Ngevd> I really meant annoying acquaitance
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15:55:16 <Ngevd> His dad's apparently a professor of computer science, so really he should know better
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15:57:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Ngevd, as we all know, knowledge of CS is passed on by Lamarckian inheritance.
15:57:44 <Ngevd> Apparently he's getting his knowledge from his dad
15:58:05 <Ngevd> Seeing as he's one of the few people I know who knows what a programming language /is/
15:58:20 <Ngevd> I think his dad may have taught him one or two things over the years
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16:06:37 <Ngevd> I'm going to do some work on XSLT S and K
16:06:47 <Ngevd> I think I've almost cracked it
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16:08:40 <coppro> you're implementing SKI in XSLT?
16:08:58 <Ngevd> Had about four tries
16:09:58 <Ngevd> What should I call the variable that is 34... of S1234...?
16:10:05 <coppro> (I have decided to start taking the empty set's name in vain)
16:10:36 <Ngevd> It includes the rather dodgy XPath of //s/*[3]/../*[1]
16:14:17 <Ngevd> Which, if I know my XPath, which I don't, returns the first child of an s node with at least three children
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16:18:06 <Ngevd> Does (((Sx)y)z) become ((xz)(yz))
16:19:49 <Ngevd> Also, does xsl:copy-of work with a forest
16:20:02 <Ngevd> Say ./*[position()>2]
16:22:19 <Phantom_Hoover> <Ngevd> What should I call the variable that is 34... of S1234...?
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16:23:08 <Ngevd> If I pass a node to a template as a param, can I do param/.. and get that node's parent node?
16:23:41 <Ngevd> Actually, Phantom_Hoover, that isn't quite what I meant. Not your fault, I was making a mistake which I corrected
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16:26:28 <Ngevd> But that last question is the important one
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17:32:05 <Ngevd> What news of Gondor?
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17:44:02 <coppro> Ngevd: ais523 just scammed BN hardcore
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17:51:09 <Ngevd> Blackberry network?
17:52:23 <oerjan> Black Ninjas. let's just say ais523 is _really_ in trouble now.
17:52:36 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: blognomic
17:52:44 <elliott> does Ngevd even play blognomic
17:52:53 <ais523> elliott: it /was/ a great scam, though
17:53:03 <ais523> as usual, there's bickering over whether it worked
17:53:26 <elliott> I thought the BlogNomic strategy was to insist that scams aren't possible, and then continue playing a lie
17:53:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Ngevd, oh man, there was so much wailing and gnashing of teeth about that in school.
17:53:48 <ais523> elliott: quite a few players do that, but not all of them
17:53:57 <ais523> and it was reminiscent of Agoran scams
17:54:05 <ais523> actually, it was more reminiscent of B ruleset bugs
17:54:14 <ais523> but I invoked the precedence rule
17:54:21 <ais523> which is quite an Agoran thing to do
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18:03:28 <elliott> http://9to5mac.com/2011/10/10/photoshop-unblur-leaves-max-audience-gasping-for-air/ they should make it illegal to implement features that make CSI-enhancing more realistic
18:05:13 <copumpkin> bad focus vs. blur vs. making shit up that isn't in the original pixels
18:05:30 <copumpkin> this only addresses motion blur, which isn't impossible
18:07:24 <elliott> copumpkin: It's only a matter of time before they figure out how to run content-aware resizing in reverse!
18:07:27 <elliott> (Or do they do that already?)
18:08:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh FFS, what kind of form imposes character *and* line limits.
18:09:13 <copumpkin> elliott: there was a paper on that in siggraph a couple of years ago
18:09:25 <copumpkin> they pulled shit that "fit" out of a large repository of images
18:09:32 <elliott> copumpkin: I know there was a paper on content-aware resizing in siggraph, that's what got everyone hyped about it :P
18:09:36 <elliott> it's possible they did uncropping too though
18:09:38 <oerjan> next, run it on hubble images
18:09:42 <elliott> btw content aware resizing is so overrated
18:09:46 <copumpkin> elliott: that's what I'm talking about
18:09:51 <elliott> they totally just picked good examples :P
18:10:00 <copumpkin> or whatever the term they picked for it is
18:14:02 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/WTF/comments/l7u75/wtf_bbc_news_quote_mining_to_make_occupy_wall/
18:14:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Redditor demonstrates failure to understand this 'satire' thing.
18:17:19 <oerjan> what do you expect in r/wtf
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18:44:56 <Phantom_Hoover> FOR GOD'S SAKE UCAS WHY DO YOU NEED 47 LINES OR LESS WHYYYYYYYY
18:46:49 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: it's to test your ability to write in limited spaces on forms
18:46:59 <elliott> "When in Rome, do as Romans. On Windows platform, Visual Basic can build much better looking, much usable GUI than gtk2hs. And Visual Studio allows you do it in no time. Don't you agree?"
18:47:18 <elliott> I didn't ever expect to be seriously asked to defend the statement "Haskell is better than Visual Basic".
18:47:24 <ais523> (the "serious" answer, IIRC, is because there's also a paper version of the form and they're giving people the same amount of space on both forms)
18:47:54 <ais523> elliott: well, I suppose it is serious, believing Visual Basic is better than Haskell could be fatal
18:48:29 <elliott> hmm, I've been avoiding downvoting their comments for fairness, but they might actually deserve it for breaking my brain like that
18:48:35 <ais523> (more seriously, VB.NET is not a completely awful language; it's on a similar level to C# or Java, both languages which I dislike, but which aren't down to VB6 or PHP standards)
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18:52:34 <elliott> "No, I'm not referring to Turing completeness, which only non-practical people care about."
18:52:50 <elliott> hmm, doesn't that reddit enhancement suite offer username ignores?
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18:55:13 <oerjan> sounds like the _first_ feature you'd want to implement
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19:15:22 <olsner> autodownvote and ignore
19:15:36 <elliott> autodownvote and report and ignore
19:15:43 <elliott> autoreply to with an inflammatory comment
19:16:19 <olsner> and autoban from the sub/reddit if you have the authority
19:16:48 -!- nooga has joined.
19:17:22 <olsner> autonuke the country (if not yours)
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19:21:38 <Ngevd> While I do play Nomic, I am not in BlogNomix
19:23:44 <Ngevd> I have to say, Visual Studio does make form design easier
19:24:11 <Ngevd> However, that is a small advantage over Haskell that Haskell can easily counter with various things
19:24:18 <Ngevd> Such as virtually everything
19:24:22 <oerjan> someone should write a haskell binding. or something.
19:24:26 <elliott> Gtk has a form designer :-P
19:24:30 <elliott> I think wxWidgets does too
19:25:32 <Ngevd> elliott, go inventing
19:25:49 <elliott> I'm trying to keep a hold of the few remaining scraps of my human soul.
19:26:00 <elliott> Haskell.NET doesn't sound very good on that front.
19:26:17 <Ngevd> C'mon, you're already one of my evil triplets
19:30:54 <Ngevd> And you live in what in some dialects is slang for hell
19:31:21 <pikhq_> No, he lives in Sixpig.
19:31:59 <pikhq_> Fuck you, I need coffee.
19:32:49 <Ngevd> I have more mouths than you
19:33:31 <Phantom__Hoover> Ngevd lives in Charmpork, elliott lives in Hexham and Facekicker lives in Cursebacon.
19:33:51 <elliott> Well, I have my next DF fortress name.
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19:33:59 <Ngevd> > ":" ++ cycle "P"
19:34:01 <lambdabot> ":PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP...
19:34:19 <ais523> wait, there's another Hexhamer here?
19:34:29 <elliott> ais523: you have to be fucking kidding me we went over this like TWO WEEKS AGO
19:34:33 <elliott> ais523: HOW CAN YOU KEEP FORGETTING THINGS
19:34:37 <Ngevd> Facekicker is someone I heard of once
19:34:40 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: I've told him personally /twice/
19:34:47 <Ngevd> Who somebody else thought may have been elliott
19:34:55 <ais523> elliott: I wasn't reading at the time, if I was even in the channel
19:35:02 <elliott> ais523: yes you were, I told _you_ personally, _twice_
19:35:05 <elliott> after you expressed disbelief each time
19:35:19 <Phantom__Hoover> I mixed it up with 'element' in chemistry, with predictable results.
19:35:24 <ais523> elliott: more than you and Ngevd, I mean
19:35:28 <ais523> I thought you were implying there was a third
19:35:40 <ais523> which would have been ridiculous
19:35:42 <Ngevd> No, Facekicker is the eviller triplet
19:35:47 <elliott> Maybe everyone is from Hexham at heart.
19:35:49 <Ngevd> He's so evil he can't use computers
19:35:59 * pikhq_ casts a spell so that everyone is now from Hexham
19:36:13 <pikhq_> #esoteric: the Hexham channel.
19:36:43 <elliott> pikhq_: also don't you mean
19:37:30 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: i don't see how that is relephant.
19:37:43 <pikhq_> I cast a hex using ham.
19:38:14 <olsner> hexed all the way to hexham, the horror
19:38:45 <oerjan> hexham, arkham and newsham
19:39:37 <olsner> heck sham and new sham
19:40:30 <Ngevd> Don't say olsner is from Hexham
19:40:45 <oerjan> Ngevd: we all are, didn't you pay attention?
19:41:17 <Ngevd> We're pretty close to the border
19:41:21 <Ngevd> Relatively speaking
19:41:24 <olsner> Ngevd: if you missed the hex, I'll just hecksh you to heck-sham instead
19:41:31 <Ngevd> Not as close as, for instance, Berwick
19:41:38 <Ngevd> But nobody likes Berwick
19:42:05 <Phantom__Hoover> Also you steal Berwick from us and then say you don't want it?
19:42:18 <Ngevd> You stole it from us first!
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19:43:05 <elliott> `addquote <Phantom__Hoover> Also you steal Berwick from us and then say you don't want it? <Ngevd> You stole it from us first!
19:43:06 <oerjan> bericum, the ancient roman fortress
19:43:07 <HackEgo> 707) <Phantom__Hoover> Also you steal Berwick from us and then say you don't want it? <Ngevd> You stole it from us first!
19:43:33 <Ngevd> I think Prudhoe was the town that changed hands the most
19:43:58 <Ngevd> Do you want Berwick back?
19:44:21 <Ngevd> They already play football in Scotland
19:44:38 <Phantom__Hoover> It's ridiculous, having North Berwick but not Berwick itself.
19:44:38 <elliott> Can we just cut Berwick off and solve the whole thing?
19:45:34 <elliott> "The Wales and Berwick Act 1746 (since repealed) deemed that whenever legislation referred to England, it applied to Berwick, without attempting to define Berwick as part of England."
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19:47:30 <olsner> nuke Berwick, plobrem sloved
19:47:37 <Phantom__Hoover> elliott, OK, I don't actually think North Berwick is good for much.
19:47:56 <Phantom__Hoover> There's a rock with some birds on it, but it's in the sea so it doesn't count.
19:48:03 <Ngevd> On another note, it's a shame that the esoteric message board failed
19:48:41 -!- oerjan has set topic: Anglo-Caledonian diplomacy and sword games | Welcome to the international hub for exoteric voodoo programming design and deployment! | computed jumps... the topic. | 12345678^&!* | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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20:27:03 <zzo38> Is it possible to write a program working both with and without SDL, without requiring separate compilation?
20:27:22 <zzo38> Or do I have to make the command-line edition a separate executable file?
20:27:28 <Gregor> zzo38: Sure, you could use libdl to get the SDL stuff.
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20:27:41 <Gregor> It would probably be much simpler to just make two executables though :)
20:27:43 <pikhq_> Or not call the SDL initialisation.
20:28:22 <Gregor> pikhq_: I assumed "without SDL" meant "libSDL.so.whatever: File not found"
20:28:27 <zzo38> Gregor: Yes, it would, at least in Windows. For UNIX systems it might be more convenient to use one executable, though; that is, if there is a reasonable way to do so.
20:28:53 <zzo38> Gregor: No I meant to have a separate command-line edition
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20:29:24 <pikhq_> Gregor: Ah. Yeah, for that you'd need seperate executables or libdl.
20:29:45 <Gregor> zzo38: Like I said, libdl is your friend. But what I would probably do is make two executables, then have a small script that chooses which to run *shrugs*
20:30:09 <elliott> You could just statically link SDL in. :p
20:30:38 <Gregor> Still implies tons of deps that you wouldn't want in the CL case.
20:30:39 <elliott> (And decide whether to use it at runtime)
20:30:54 <elliott> Gregor: As opposed to having the default build process build two executables and just use a shell script? :P
20:31:21 <elliott> I guess it could just forget about building one if SDL wasn't present.
20:31:24 <Gregor> elliott: Cannot load foobar: libX11.so: File not found
20:31:49 <elliott> Gregor: Well duh, I meant SDL + deps :P
20:32:31 <zzo38> I can make two executables; a shell script is not really needed. It could use a common source file, I suppose, or even a dynamic library that is most of the functions of the program, and the SDL specific stuff is contained in the main executable file.
20:32:44 <zzo38> A shell script could be used for compiling, though.
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20:53:46 <elliott> "Dude, end users care about the user experience. This is why Apple has been so successful with ipod, iphone, even though there are technically better products. You can't say you don't care."
20:54:08 <elliott> this post is the stupidest thing anyone has ever said to me in a programming language war
20:54:30 <Ngevd> Apple have been successful because they look cool
20:54:35 <pikhq_> Funny, I could've sworn that Apple was successful *in spite* of being so damned user hostile.
20:55:18 <elliott> Apple... aren't user-hostile. Their philosophy is in principle, but so is every large tech company's.
20:56:35 <pikhq_> The iPhone shit in particular is.
20:57:18 <elliott> No, it's not; yes, it's an unprogrammable, locked down system, but so is every other mobile OS; and definitely an iPhone is more usable than the others ignoring that.
20:57:26 <elliott> Anyway, that's not the point.
20:57:29 <pikhq_> "Why, yes, I would *love* to have a central authority vetting things according to compliance with corporate self-interest!"
20:57:39 <pikhq_> Of course, this is nothing *unique* to Apple.
20:58:42 <Phantom__Hoover> pikhq_, I think you missed the part where someone is justifying a language argument with this.
20:58:52 <pikhq_> That's beyond moronic.
20:59:30 <quintopia> i don't find springboard more usable than some of the android UIs i've tried. pandahome is a better interface than springboard even though its only a beta app, imo. but yeah, nnot trying to undermine your underlying point...
20:59:53 <elliott> quintopia: Yes, clearly the launcher screen is the entire decider of usability :P
21:00:54 <quintopia> (the stupid settings menus iOS uses just make them look even worse, but i'm not really going to have that argument)
21:00:56 <elliott> I mean, getting to the address book is important usability-wise, but that means fuck all if it's still a hideous pain to edit the actual entries.
21:02:19 <quintopia> apple's built-in address book is far from the best mobile address book app either. i think they are spending too much time sitting on their laurels.
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21:02:58 <elliott> quintopia: It was an example.
21:03:04 <elliott> English really needs proper support for metasyntactic variables.
21:03:36 <quintopia> it does. just say $foo and i will understand
21:04:02 <quintopia> alternately, use e.g. before the metasyntactic variable and its metasyntactic properties
21:12:54 <pikhq_> Goodness gracious the US has bad income inequality.
21:13:53 <elliott> Huh, Adobe are actually pushing the obsoletion of their plugin as their sort-of-official line.
21:13:54 <Ngevd> Does anyone know of a place to discuss XSLT on Freenode
21:13:55 <Phantom__Hoover> In other news, outrage as the Pope blesses bears in the woods.
21:13:59 <pikhq_> We're worse off than many third-world countries.
21:14:18 <elliott> (By "sort of official", as in "non-controversial posts on their developers' blogs that are devoted to discussing how awesome they are".)
21:14:25 <elliott> <Phantom__Hoover> In other news, outrage as the Pope blesses bears in the woods.
21:14:38 <olsner> Ngevd: are you using it to implement a turing machine or doing anything with XML documents?
21:14:55 <Ngevd> Sort of the latter
21:15:15 <Ngevd> Turing-equivalent computational models expressed as XML
21:15:26 <elliott> Ngevd: You've switched to the <apply> <s> <k> <i> model, right?
21:15:31 <elliott> Not that ridiculous "put stuff in it to apply" thing?
21:15:36 <Ngevd> No, I switched back
21:15:57 <elliott> It's literally semantic nonsense.
21:16:03 <Ngevd> It's a hell of a lot easier
21:16:06 <olsner> Ngevd: XSLT already is a Turing-equivalent computational model expressed as XML :)
21:16:25 <Ngevd> I want to demonstrate this beyond a shadow of a doubt!
21:16:32 <elliott> Ngevd: It so is not easier.
21:16:46 <olsner> but that's already been done (by implementing a universal turing machine)
21:16:47 <elliott> There is no possible way that structure could be easier :P
21:18:14 <Ngevd> But you know what?
21:18:19 <Ngevd> I'll do it your way
21:18:36 <elliott> It's easier because <apply> always has two children, for one thing :P
21:18:40 <Ngevd> And start completely again for the SIXTH GODDAMN TIME
21:24:06 <Ngevd> Well, I've done K one method and S the other
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21:25:16 <Phantom__Hoover> How is it this hard to implement a tree-rewriting system in a tree-rewriting language?
21:25:27 <elliott> If you can do S, surely K and I are trivial.
21:25:27 <Ngevd> Because I barely know either
21:25:47 <Ngevd> I switched to your method after finishing S
21:25:56 <Ngevd> In your method I did K first
21:26:03 <elliott> Ngevd: What are you using to apply the XSLT?
21:26:16 <Ngevd> At the moment, my MIND
21:26:24 <Ngevd> Probably a web browser
21:26:31 <Ngevd> I have a choice of four
21:26:37 <Ngevd> One of which it won't work for
21:30:38 <zzo38> Why does Astrolog use the orb setting of -180.0 for Conjunction? The orb is the degree of separation between exactitude; a negative value doesn't make sense. I changed the values for all aspects to 7; the Sun and Moon are conjunct in a new moon and opposite in a full moon.
21:32:53 <zzo38> If you plot only the sun and moon on a horoscope, with the fixed sun position, you can see the phase of the moon. If you include the lunar nodes, you can include eclipses as well (see the wikipedia article about "Lunar node").
21:34:34 <zzo38> "Eclipses occur only near the lunar nodes: Solar eclipses occur when the passage of the Moon through a node coincides with the new moon; lunar eclipses occur when passage coincides with the full moon."
21:37:43 <zzo38> What about mysterious? Are you talking about lunar nodes?
21:41:48 <zzo38> Do you mean horoscopes as well? Or even the sun and moon? Aspects? Orbs?
21:42:01 <HackEgo> 17) IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <pikhq> First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. <pikhq> Second, learn the rest with your NEW MIND-COMPUTER INTERFACE.
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21:42:32 <zzo38> Weetos? What is that?
21:46:03 <Ngevd> `quote breakfast cereal
21:46:05 <HackEgo> 527) <NihilistDandy> Non sequitur is my forte <NihilistDandy> On-topic discussion is my piano <Taneb> Bowls of sugary breakfast cereal is my mezzoforte <Taneb> Full fat milk is my pianissimo <Taneb> On which note, I'm hungry
21:46:16 <Ngevd> `quote breakfast cereal
21:46:18 <HackEgo> 527) <NihilistDandy> Non sequitur is my forte <NihilistDandy> On-topic discussion is my piano <Taneb> Bowls of sugary breakfast cereal is my mezzoforte <Taneb> Full fat milk is my pianissimo <Taneb> On which note, I'm hungry
21:46:26 <Ngevd> Dammit there is another quote
21:46:33 <HackEgo> 529) <Taos> _ <Taos> | |__ _ _ ___ <Taos> | '_ \| | | |/ _ \ <Taos> | |_) | |_| | __/ <Taos> |_.__/ \__, |\___|
21:46:44 <HackEgo> 527) <NihilistDandy> Non sequitur is my forte <NihilistDandy> On-topic discussion is my piano <Taneb> Bowls of sugary breakfast cereal is my mezzoforte <Taneb> Full fat milk is my pianissimo <Taneb> On which note, I'm hungry
21:46:52 <HackEgo> 553) <Taneb> I combined the wholegrain breakfast and chocolatey breakfast for maximum breakfast efficiency
21:47:35 <Ngevd> It's choclatey and wholegrain
21:48:20 <Ngevd> And on that note I leave you all for bed
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23:26:13 <zzo38> I have found various bugs in the Astrolog program. For example, Sun: Virgo -> Libra is the autumnal equinox in tropical mode, but in sidereal mode it is also labeled the autumnal equinox, which is incorrect. It also does not save all the settings correctly (although you can enter them manually in the ASTROLOG.DAT file).
23:26:36 <zzo38> And why is it labeled Virgo -> Libra even though I told it to display the angles in degrees instead?
23:30:26 <zzo38> It does correctly display the labels "Full moon" and so on for aspects between the sun and moon.
23:31:11 <zzo38> However, in my opinion it should consider "Sun square Moon" and "Moon square Sun" to be separate, because that is what calendars do.
23:44:00 <zzo38> I have a map of eclipses, but they do not specify latitude/longitude
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23:50:42 <quintopia> then it will jump the shark and people will stop caring
23:56:01 <CakeProphet> I... think it will take a long time for that to happen with homestuck
23:56:32 <CakeProphet> most tv shows and the like as centered on some premise that makes them stagnate once ideas run out.
23:56:39 <CakeProphet> but homestuck can kind of... do literally anything.
23:57:40 <CakeProphet> we haven't even got to a point where the midnight crew is part of the main story. maybe they won't be...
23:57:53 <CakeProphet> if they weren't ever mentioned again after the intermission.
23:58:01 <elliott> Dude, have you even been paying attention.
23:58:47 <CakeProphet> my memory is kind of fuzzy though. I could probably stand to re-read the whole thing.