< 1320105680 668921 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi oerjan ooejiowerjina < 1320105708 102681 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :AHA < 1320105708 298205 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi elliott < 1320105710 595157 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what i fi < 1320105710 853336 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1320105740 482184 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: so do you understand the analysis in the paper? < 1320105755 497645 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was analysis? :D < 1320105870 704458 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Django is neat and all, but not when you have a day to make a whole website. :P "Django: The Web framework for perfectionists with deadlines" indeed. < 1320105884 800098 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: well, the stuff about how the determiner sharing comes about < 1320105894 802941 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not the facts but the gapping-as-ellipsis account < 1320105921 346935 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: i am bad at reading :( < 1320105930 635094 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: lol < 1320105949 151424 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :subsection 2.1 < 1320105977 912458 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott has no MonadReader instance. < 1320105980 772110 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ooooh, sick burn) < 1320106065 864121 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, actually that solution i thought i had just lead to an infinite regress :( < 1320106074 629071 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: which solution < 1320106087 517411 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: not related to your thing < 1320106107 76623 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1320106111 495059 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :model-view-controller is actually not as terrible as I thought it would be.. < 1320106114 675893 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :infinite regress shows up in natural language you know :D < 1320106197 432160 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Why would separating the parts of your program sanely be terrible? < 1320106205 163580 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Even if you are using a degenerate language.) < 1320106225 59755 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Not that I'm saying you are, just that there are those that do.) < 1320106231 88776 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :mvc is awful because controllers are necessarily degenerate < 1320106240 564372 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :either that, or things go into the controller which should be in the view (vastly most common case) < 1320106250 707330 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: I thought the specific model might be constraining. < 1320106254 548505 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :also because decoupling controllers from views never really works out at all < 1320106257 941585 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so basically mvc is stupid < 1320106282 288960 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: as far as I can tell Django doesn't separate controller from view at all. Maybe I'm just a noob though and haven't got to that part though. :P < 1320106284 857198 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Or just applicable to fewer problems than it's applied to. Like a hellton of things in the programming world. < 1320106289 953705 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: yes it does < 1320106291 930397 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :view = template < 1320106294 707129 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :controller = view < 1320106298 848073 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah okay. < 1320106300 856409 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :django calls things different because it's stupid < 1320106304 239268 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes perfect sense. :P < 1320106337 540970 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: It is constraining, that's what gives it any shred of decency. < 1320106339 168368 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: damn! your unjustified assertion has totally beaten my attempted explanation to the ground < 1320106363 648737 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least the model part is spot-on. < 1320106386 49206 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't go wrong there. (cue elliott.. :P ) < 1320106391 997651 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: If you have an application that's naturally divisible into data, presentation, and control components, then MVC is a good idea. Otherwise, probably not. < 1320106406 918527 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: it's probably the best you can do within the constraintrs of model < 1320106414 70168 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: wait -- wait -- back up here < 1320106419 416723 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: right, it has to be all databasey < 1320106424 242527 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have a problem to which MVC is suited < 1320106428 275759 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :MVC is suited to it??? < 1320106450 13669 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: If you feel like missing the point entirely, yes. < 1320106452 624109 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :HOLY SHIT! I remember when I contradicted this, instead of saying something more reasonable like "MVC is awful" because nothing actually maps to it in practice. < 1320106453 623249 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION uses MVC for brainfuck interpreters. < 1320106473 670264 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"If you have an application that's naturally divisible into data [model], presentation [view], and control [controller] components, then MVC is a good idea." < 1320106480 644495 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"If you have an application that's naturally divisible into model, view, and controller components, then MVC is a good idea." < 1320106484 950192 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"If you have an application that's naturally divisible into model, view, and controller components, then model-view-controller is a good idea." < 1320106495 697416 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"If your application = model + view + controller, then model-view-controller is a good idea." < 1320106548 284470 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey what I'm working on fits that pretty well! < 1320106549 568039 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll assume you're just repeating yourself to make sure you can parse the obvious thing I said without understanding or caring what I meant. < 1320106566 458670 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think he's just covering his bases. < 1320106588 616781 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you saying my reduction of that sentence was incorrect, because you definitely made a few typos if so < 1320106626 560841 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: you speak which language natively? < 1320106641 299062 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just saying that, as far as I can tell, there are plenty of developers who aren't so good at following the advice of "if X is applicable, use X; otherwise don't". < 1320106659 138422 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I prefer MVC where MVC = Master Vizier Count < 1320106672 90629 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: CakeProphet is from Svalbard. < 1320106673 121303 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it employs a rigid code of operation based on feudal tradition < 1320106687 348354 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so swedish or whatever < 1320106703 370859 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: How many Master Vizier should use in program? \(O_o)/ < 1320106719 167920 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :no they're three different things < 1320106724 68631 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :master is different from vizier. < 1320106729 139506 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it makes total sense. < 1320106751 188364 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I prefer to think you meant the number of viziers who are masterful. < 1320106760 717256 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like how augur believes me < 1320106767 772524 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :viziers totally have nothing to do with mastery of things. < 1320106778 718510 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :viziers are sycophantic scum. < 1320106818 822486 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't a clever vizier hold the helm of the kingdom by advising the king? Assuming a clever person can get himself appointed vizier. < 1320106823 970203 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: why not! < 1320106838 339529 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Assuming vizierhood is by appointment. < 1320106846 361700 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm making a lot of assumptions today. < 1320106848 476056 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: that's a valid trope, yes. < 1320106864 242585 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but only works sometimes. < 1320106873 380157 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hooray, now I know how to write a book that will work sometimes. < 1320106874 826818 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :to use the parlance of our times, viziers are pussy bitches. < 1320106943 829799 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh god deadlines, someone shoot me. < 1320106994 397220 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: hi write my parser thanks < 1320107004 691461 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: hi write my website thanks < 1320107068 86256 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :always happy to help with procrastination < 1320107072 337562 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Parsers are easy to write. Especially in Haskell (as I recently learned) of which you are so fond. < 1320107101 750145 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: try writing a parser for transformational grammars! < 1320107115 574518 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: Sure, if your grammar is trivial! < 1320107116 636793 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, elliott, i still prefer agda to coq < 1320107133 6381 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: challenge: write a Perl parser in Parsec < 1320107142 822433 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're two different things, it's just that Coq is the better orange. < 1320107150 583086 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: but using Counts only works if your hierarchy has no cycles! < 1320107155 708290 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Challenge: write a Perl parser. < 1320107173 524294 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't forget you may need to interpret perl code in order to parse perl code. < 1320107179 110581 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :a perl parser is trivial in parsec < 1320107180 402421 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :also yacc < 1320107181 739263 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Hint: it's not strictly possible.) < 1320107182 708374 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :also everything < 1320107185 306483 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes it is < 1320107203 349407 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't feel like reimplementing perl, thank you very much. < 1320107210 588354 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I want to parse Perl, I'll use perl. < 1320107215 129060 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"i don't feel like it -> it's not possible" < 1320107220 17737 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :perl has a c api, anyway < 1320107222 478396 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1320107222 645514 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :which has, you know, eval < 1320107244 911730 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I was under the impression that the perl parser had to be handwritten. < 1320107248 292440 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I don't feel like it, and I'll never feel like it, and nothing else makes me do it, it's not possible for me to do it. < 1320107263 238535 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :rrright < 1320107264 145881 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: or at least, couldn't be written with yacc, I mean. < 1320107266 591315 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: doesn't it use yacc with a bunch of hacks or something < 1320107272 735380 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh... < 1320107276 765142 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I think so. < 1320107280 860812 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :certainly the last part. < 1320107281 618712 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: which is why you told CakeProphet it wasn't possibl < 1320107281 964181 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :e < 1320107295 434282 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not strictly yacc < 1320107297 357080 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Damn skippy. < 1320107306 104729 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :also in a deterministic universe, exactly one thing is possible. and it sucks ass. < 1320107315 294027 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :as the way it parses depends silly hacks, yes. < 1320107326 606465 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :+on < 1320107392 453948 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: So what's this oh-so-complex parser of yours for? Must I logread? < 1320107420 809480 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :who doesn't logread < 1320107423 554857 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :me. < 1320107452 132383 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have IMPORTANT THINGS to do. < 1320107457 147789 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :that do not involve the reading of logs. < 1320107464 689647 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example: acting cool < 1320107484 980171 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :smoking hookah. getting rowdy with friends. sleeping. chatting on IRC. < 1320107508 98524 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1320107515 729738 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wish i could be you for like one day < 1320107526 618510 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it's awesome. probably because I'm so cool. < 1320107531 849626 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION does a cool pose. < 1320107542 629218 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, when did CakeProphet turn into oklopol? < 1320107591 214627 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I think my car actually bears some semblance of functionality now. < 1320107591 758317 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1320107602 851935 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can get on with procrastinating as usual. < 1320107614 634979 :centrinia!~exc@adsl-184-36-91-18.asm.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1320107622 91750 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, what about your cdr? < 1320107631 188426 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :HA. HA. HAHAHA. HA. HA. HA. < 1320107658 552048 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: cdr is still using the old stateful object-oriented system. < 1320107667 130193 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1320107686 494884 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: All I find is you complaining that you may have to write a parser. :/ < 1320107688 319931 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, well I guess we are even on the puns < 1320107688 734479 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suck ass and have stupid opinions and i cry at night because my ability to see the future by looking at delicious things has long gone, and the only thing left is my tiny penis < 1320107707 777570 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: Looks like you didn't read enough logs then! < 1320107713 698106 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Hi. < 1320107728 500436 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe it's a strange variant of model-view-controller. But not feudal I think it's e-democratic. The Master Vizier Count model isn't very well-known. < 1320107729 9289 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait hasn't centrinia been here before. < 1320107730 860031 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi elliott, what's up? < 1320107732 82189 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's assume no. < 1320107733 45769 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? welcome < 1320107733 818635 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Alright, alright, I'll go deeper, yeesh. But if I don't emerge soon, you'd better not cut my rope. < 1320107735 71361 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page < 1320107735 602170 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: believe so. < 1320107744 766534 :centrinia!~exc@adsl-184-36-91-18.asm.bellsouth.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have been here once. < 1320107761 171456 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :centrinia: why did you leave? why did you come back? who are you? < 1320107762 489119 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :centrinia: What kind of idiot would repeat the experience? Weren't we bad enough?! < 1320107773 726044 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: :( you put pain in my heart. < 1320107777 934355 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh elliott you so sillies. < 1320107779 25747 :centrinia!~exc@adsl-184-36-91-18.asm.bellsouth.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was not paying attention the first time. < 1320107795 401988 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: i know exactly where your buttons are. < 1320107833 653042 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :centrinia: I'm going to have to demand my money back; you've been here twice. < 1320107852 819705 :centrinia!~exc@adsl-184-36-91-18.asm.bellsouth.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION gives elliott $0.02 < 1320107857 221111 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thank you. < 1320107861 859757 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION stares longingly at a pastry, waiting for that old spark. < 1320107867 384591 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(2009-08-01 and 2011-10-07.) < 1320107878 630053 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh god he's making me cry as well < 1320107892 802254 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is just horrible < 1320107907 995189 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, it uses lemon slices and metal rods? < 1320107936 455434 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :well since I adopted Master Vizier Count I've been using the soothsaying plugin < 1320107946 777037 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :which I believe examines the entrails of various domesticated mammals. < 1320107967 684123 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, that one went over my head. < 1320107976 398481 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's... a strange thing < 1320107978 364217 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :people used to do. < 1320107980 357233 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :back in the day. < 1320107990 278192 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I tied it in with Django weirdly. I wouldn't worry too much about it. < 1320107997 307689 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1320108001 514289 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION returns from logreading with no news to report. < 1320108064 305731 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: You didn't read enough logs. < 1320108094 557422 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you see the part where me and elliott spammed for hours and hours < 1320108106 122745 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have seen < 1320108108 520054 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :all the parts. < 1320108132 4455 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :AWWWWW YEAH FRUITS LOOPS THE TURING COMPLETE CEREAL FUCKING DELICIOUS YES. < 1320108133 681957 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :By which I mean no. < 1320108152 668457 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think our last session was like a year ago < 1320108189 89467 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :sheesh, is my turing completeness detection hampered by me not smoking hookah... < 1320108225 730696 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yep < 1320108229 202744 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :also not acting cool enough. < 1320108232 644106 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is important. < 1320108241 585236 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :to see the turing completeness in everyday, cool life. < 1320108246 166330 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: were you proud when that guy wrote a program in :()^ :') < 1320108248 399813 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. no hope for me, then. < 1320108306 536265 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: i felt strangely empty < 1320108311 694908 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: :( < 1320108345 842808 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: this is merely the sign of the blossoming forest within. < 1320108352 182822 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sagenods. < 1320108391 88626 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow you guys I lost an entire bowl of Fruit Loops < 1320108392 430397 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no clue < 1320108393 961356 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :where it is. < 1320108408 756919 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :you accidentally smoked it < 1320108533 998360 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps my brain is subconsciously trying to further delay work on this Django stuff. < 1320108849 328646 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: "Voxatron is based on a virtual 128x128x64 display. It's a buffer of 3d video memory that is rendered out to the screen at the end of each frame, much as an old-school 2d display is. You can POKE bytes into the virtual memory, and they come out as voxels. I don't compromise on this -- even the menus are drawn into the voxel display. Hopefully one day I can get hold of a real physical 128x128x64 display and play Voxatron on it with almost n < 1320108849 455983 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :o modification." < 1320108861 857513 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, it's even software-rendered < 1320109233 845958 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1320109405 785894 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It looks like fun. < 1320109645 217733 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?ID=53606 yay < 1320109676 926599 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :better extract the 64-bit version from the .deb, sigh < 1320109813 363138 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, that one's 32-bit too :) < 1320109855 842951 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: how did you get voxatron working on 64-bit < 1320110054 649570 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, ./vox-run iirc < 1320110058 478630 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, from the tar.gz < 1320110065 132246 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: oh, so you already have the 32-bit libs < 1320110066 34555 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I had the required 32-bit libs I guess? < 1320110073 756061 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, yes, multilib repo < 1320110079 802969 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the aur package works but doesn't depend on the 32-bit versions of the libs < 1320110086 581861 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :which sucks < 1320110086 715939 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, use the multilib repo < 1320110088 86838 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :not aur < 1320110089 651165 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :for this < 1320110105 461475 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I very much doubt there is a voxatron package in the multilib repo. < 1320110115 287501 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, no I meant for the libs < 1320110133 468144 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just rebooted desktop to windows, so not going to check which ones were required, try ldd? < 1320110135 820453 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, I'm saying that the voxatron package is fucked because it just depends on libgl and sdl but declares arch=('i686' 'x86_64'). < 1320110147 159775 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, ah I did it manually < 1320110152 936319 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, and leave a comment about it < 1320110155 813330 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did. < 1320110163 612507 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hopefully it'll be fixed, since it was just added an hour ago and there have already been fixes. < 1320110165 398475 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, just wait and play it by hand until then < 1320110182 614061 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :or just wait < 1320110216 919865 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION reiterates what he said about not doing anything outside the package manager any more. < 1320110244 327785 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about your own code? < 1320110261 655930 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't run that :-) < 1320110268 646846 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1320110278 686191 :tiffany!~kawaii@fl-76-3-18-195.dhcp.embarqhsd.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1320110370 170627 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how one convinces people to set up mirrors. Also, build bots. < 1320110376 633050 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will try... murder. < 1320110403 222643 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :money. promises of fame. a brilliant idea. < 1320110416 281760 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Murder's cheaper. < 1320110445 369640 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :blackmail. sexual favors. threats of violence (possibly including murder). drugs. free advertising. < 1320110459 990725 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf windows, it doesn't detect my PS/2 keyboard properly unless it is after a warm reboot from any OS. < 1320110460 839104 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why threaten when you can do? < 1320110472 878726 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :good luck getting dead people to mirror for you. < 1320110484 549879 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could murder their family. < 1320110492 853556 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's acceptable. < 1320110504 821471 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :still not much motivation to mirror your stuff. < 1320110509 608362 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :you still need a threat < 1320110511 323868 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :to coerce them. < 1320110521 502688 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't just kill their family and expect them to start doing things. < 1320110523 953500 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :for no reason. < 1320110535 50014 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :they'll probably just grieve or do something equally human-like. < 1320110541 118699 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could kill half their family and threaten to kill the rest? < 1320110548 74108 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's good < 1320110557 240325 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it demonstrates that you're not to be trifled with. < 1320110562 382386 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :while also providing coercion. < 1320110617 173898 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't forget the horse heads < 1320110624 549429 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: anyway if you have an awesome project I think you could probably find a university that will provide a mirror. < 1320110635 415531 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I have no clue how that works. < 1320110640 974476 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt it's quite that easy. < 1320110657 982170 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Build bots are probably more useful, anyway. < 1320110660 384224 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kernel.org mirrors several distros, including arch, debian and so on < 1320110670 384910 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I doubt they accept new distros :P < 1320110696 48287 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well they accepted ubuntu some time ago. I guess they only accept sufficiently large ones though < 1320110714 488931 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ubuntu is from 2004. < 1320110717 747796 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arch 2003, I think. < 1320110718 102710 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc. < 1320110721 310116 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, in 2004 it was new < 1320110734 902892 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: And in 2005 it was the biggest. < 1320110743 183067 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm did it go that fast? < 1320110753 30283 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, at least by 2006. < 1320110757 704427 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes < 1320110813 873156 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :owning a limited liability probably helps with stuff like that. < 1320110827 442839 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? < 1320110835 54083 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Canonical Ltd. < 1320110836 849380 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :arch linux is community driven iirc < 1320110852 26721 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :so how would that help with kernel.org mirroring < 1320110853 7181 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Yes, money does indeed begat services. < 1320110854 171514 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I thought we were talking about Ubuntu. < 1320110857 868966 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1320110859 863110 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, as well < 1320110895 670840 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: No, Ubuntu benefitted from having a literally infinitely rich, tech-savvy, people-person for a manager :P < 1320110932 752868 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :it will fall the day he dies. Maybe not right away. But it will go quickly downhill then. < 1320110942 586875 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I doubt it < 1320110950 257386 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :AFAICT he doesn't do that much any more < 1320110956 660234 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, iirc Canonical makes a loss? < 1320110970 552209 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm < 1320110987 162196 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"In a Guardian interview in May 2008, Mark Shuttleworth said that the Canonical business model was service provision and explained that Canonical was not yet close to profitability. Canonical also claimed it will wait for the business to turn into a profitable one within another 3 to 5 years. He regarded Canonical as positioning itself as demand for services related to Free Software rose.[19] This strategy has been compared to Red Hat's business s < 1320110987 270878 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :trategies in the 1990s.[20] However, in an early 2009 New York Times article, Shuttleworth said that Canonical's revenue was "creeping" towards $30 million, the company's break-even point.[21]" < 1320111069 322823 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1320111072 791167 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1320111093 814560 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries to figure out Nix's dependency story < 1320111100 852714 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, oh? < 1320111108 116772 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I thought you said nix was bad ;P < 1320111110 467555 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I don't know what it is from what I know :) < 1320111114 725409 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yes, but I can steal ideas from it. < 1320111146 72463 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why does Unix only offer like three atomic operations < 1320111168 711443 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :rename, unlink, creat... is there anything else? < 1320111169 906187 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :so... this game crashes unless at least 5 minutes passed since starting windows and another XNA based game ran before it in the current session. This behaviour is reproducible < 1320111171 825637 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, ^ < 1320111176 682547 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :how very strange < 1320111179 158919 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1320111197 306116 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://rcrowley.org/2010/01/06/things-unix-can-do-atomically.html < 1320111199 742745 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1320111241 182800 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :link(2), symlink(2), rename(2), open(2), open(2), mkdir(2), fcntl(2), mmap(2), msync(2), and some virtual memory crap < 1320111255 313699 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :how bullshit is that < 1320111305 899759 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: lament < 1320111310 729324 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually I really really want a transactional filesystem < 1320111328 693895 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :where a process can make a "begin" call on a directory, have that directory's contents freeze in a consistent state < 1320111329 948922 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :make modifications < 1320111334 366346 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and commit or rollback it < 1320111339 502848 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be super-cool < 1320111469 252749 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: perhaps this could be included in an orthogonally persistent filesystem? < 1320111500 246092 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, it's like somebody said something that makes no sense but my IRC client refused to show me it and instead punched me. < 1320111527 93322 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ow < 1320111565 393703 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure what doesn't make sense.. < 1320111576 278758 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: he was probably just quoting mezzacotta < 1320111586 395693 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the business speak guy < 1320111795 778836 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does "make this stuff atomic" syscalls not make sense in orthogonal persistence? < 1320111823 43155 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"orthogonally persistent filesystem" < 1320111835 576589 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay so it's not really a filesystem < 1320111928 908849 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, if you're doing any kind of reference-passing across threads you'll have to deal with thread safety. < 1320111929 974844 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Anyway, in the presence of orthogonal persistence, one can simply overlay mechanisms like STM to achieve the desired concurrency properties. < 1320111957 586160 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Orthogonal persistence is in a sense much lower-level than a filesystem; it's /better/ and far more flexible, but it fundamentally does far less. < 1320111969 50190 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's as atomic as memory itself is. < 1320111980 780273 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Well, OK, I suppose there's no CAS instruction for hard disks.) < 1320111987 199159 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is: not very atomic :P < 1320112006 803815 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Are you saying nobody achieves atomicity on top of memory? < 1320112013 294874 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :not at all < 1320112021 302046 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was referring to "memory itself" as in the lowest level. < 1320112028 898361 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whatever system works for software also works for the disk in orthogonal persistence, that's all I'm sayin'. < 1320112049 325786 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the only thing the syscalls would do is create a system-wide standard. < 1320112055 103227 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :which I guess isn't necessary. < 1320112095 253793 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "syscalls" would have nothing to do with orthogonal persistence, they'd just be implementing STM. STM, of course, requires knowledge of the language's object model to work well. < 1320112109 184501 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway syscalls are unnecessary in an orthogonally-persisted system, but that's irrelevant. < 1320112134 1440 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I suppose if you keep a "traditional" security model they're necessary. But that requires additional work if you're ~doing things orthogonally~. < 1320112202 985838 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you saying this kind of system secures itself via explicit reference passing? < 1320112266 729987 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :If that's an awkward way of saying object-capability, then yes. < 1320112269 568463 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do you need some kind of intermediary? < 1320112301 505592 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, okay. < 1320112312 897288 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you have to explicitly specify which operations can be performed. < 1320112317 928958 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uhhh... < 1320112326 28662 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll let you figure this one out yourself. < 1320112331 111206 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the thing youre passing the reference to. < 1320112368 61462 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Oh gross, the parts of Nix that aren't in C++ are in Perl. < 1320112380 791999 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ewwww < 1320112383 821606 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should be all perl. < 1320112389 76893 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++? really? < 1320112402 689570 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : die "who ARE you? go away" unless defined $userName; < 1320112406 363556 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rude. < 1320112437 675230 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :guests who come unaccounced are rude. < 1320112440 878477 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :they must die. < 1320112452 366155 :centrinia!~exc@adsl-184-36-91-18.asm.bellsouth.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1320112466 419667 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :More MVC? < 1320112486 713060 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :no;;; < 1320112489 766456 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually it's better than Perl: They're written in... autoconf perl? < 1320112492 104745 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://nixos.org/repos/nix/nix/trunk/scripts/nix-channel.in < 1320112519 542443 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The latter command will upgrade each installed package for which there is a “newer” version (as determined by comparing the version numbers)." < 1320112528 437429 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heyyy, this manual told me Nix doesn't care about the actual versions. < 1320112531 165927 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was LIED to. < 1320113096 47239 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm what are some neat things I can do with the free SMS gateway my carrier provides? < 1320113153 472541 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Make it really easy to compromise my system if my phone ever gets stolen? :P < 1320114452 235287 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :jesus, I have... 30 tabs of Django documentation open. < 1320114494 802423 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :28 actually. < 1320114511 301306 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :a perfect number. < 1320114526 155558 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :good to know. < 1320114605 550438 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is good practice though. < 1320114612 133865 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a lot of Django jobs out there. < 1320114627 993453 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't really mind Python all that much so I won't hate them. :P < 1320114928 263746 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1320115300 327212 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want elastic tabstops implemented in more editors so I can quit using fixed-width typefaces. :( < 1320115317 418817 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also better Unicode syntax support in programming languages. < 1320115353 642187 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :UnicodeSyntax is nice in Haskell, but it doesn't cover everything, and input methods aren't what they ought to be. < 1320115412 707707 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-197-167.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1320115415 49657 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-149-66.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1320115436 508033 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Targets (16): lib32-glibc-2.14.1-1 lib32-libpciaccess-0.12.1-2 < 1320115436 863440 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : lib32-libdrm-2.4.26-1 lib32-libxdmcp-1.1.0-1 < 1320115436 935819 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : lib32-libxau-1.0.6-2 lib32-libxcb-1.7-2 lib32-libx11-1.4.4-1 < 1320115436 935990 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : lib32-libxext-1.2.0-1 lib32-libxxf86vm-1.1.1-1 < 1320115436 936098 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : lib32-libxfixes-4.0.5-3 lib32-libxdamage-1.1.3-3 < 1320115437 59892 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : lib32-expat-2.0.1-7 lib32-libglapi-7.11-4 lib32-libgl-7.11-4 < 1320115439 68314 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : lib32-libxrender-0.9.6-4 lib32-sdl-1.2.14-8 < 1320115441 833 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh < 1320115479 638563 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want a programming language I can program with my brain. < 1320115491 987507 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :direct brain-to-program interface. < 1320115546 372479 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :none of this foolish character-based crap. < 1320115613 712942 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :libliblib < 1320115678 758498 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that lib32-libliblib or lib64-libliblib? < 1320115682 621976 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could program it directly from your brain with sex thoughts. hm, what would be a good name ... < 1320115685 35250 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Come on, is no one else bothered by the use of -> and => instead of proper arrow characters, or <= instead of a "less than or equal to" sign, or straight quotes instead of curved quotes? < 1320115711 613262 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: given the limitations of my keyboard, no. < 1320115717 395302 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I am bothered by the limitations of my keyboard. < 1320115737 429922 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :On Linux I use a compose key, and extend my compose map liberally, but it's not really enough. < 1320115766 424065 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :We should be able to beautifully typeset our source code like mathematics and prose. < 1320115791 590270 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And quit designing languages that are so backward-compatible they can be typed on a typewriter from 1960. < 1320115811 550280 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :just wait until time-travel < 1320115825 331094 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :then we have to worry about forward-compatability < 1320115839 139680 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :they'll never be able to solve that < 1320115849 300328 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :If we have time travel, I think we'll cope (have be will copen?) somehow. < 1320115881 422224 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :APL probably would've been a huge success if only it hadn't limited itself to being backwards-compatible with '60s typewriters < 1320115895 992136 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Har. < 1320115920 402317 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :what will has did "have be will copen" mean? < 1320115941 716332 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seriously, these ASCII approximations don't bother anyone else? < 1320115953 164562 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :<-- nah < 1320115964 464228 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-149-66.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: What bothers me is that I have a mere 104 keys. < 1320115979 13873 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-149-66.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I *demand* a Japanese typewriter. < 1320115979 588703 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-149-66.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1320116007 60194 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-149-66.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(aka "movable type") < 1320116027 451155 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps the main thing holding us back is our input methods...and yet no one will use a language that requires editor support, because no one will write an editor for it because no one will use it! < 1320116057 822075 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-149-66.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, several people use spoken languages that need editor support. < 1320116069 106752 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I doubt anyone's going to be writing programs with formatting markup anytime soon. < 1320116074 342144 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-149-66.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do not type "例えば", I type "tatoeba". < 1320116119 972257 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh my god I'm terrible at web programming. < 1320116122 329421 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :True. I type in Chinese (and less frequently Japanese) quite often, and I always thought it worked quite well. < 1320116129 300256 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially if you're using a hiragana keyboard. < 1320116146 913530 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-149-66.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dislike hiragana keyboard layouts rather strongly. < 1320116158 491557 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But these things have demand. People actually speak Japanese, etc. < 1320116179 885425 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-149-66.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not that QWERTY is best or anything, but: seriously, kana would be *really* well-suited to a chording keyboard. < 1320116201 377219 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Introducing a language that requires editor support, it won't gain traction; adding features to an existing language, people will just use the old features. < 1320116225 38792 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the only way you could get people to change is to alter all source files passed to the implementation. < 1320116250 478220 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quietly but seamlessly replacing ASCII characters with their Unicode equivalents. < 1320116275 557821 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is, ASCII di- and trigraph approximations with the genuine article. < 1320116370 968828 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm imagining typing Japanese with just 16-odd keys. *drool* < 1320116408 248526 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-149-66.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :With most of the things being 2-key chords, too. :) < 1320116476 219880 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And Chinese with...initials+finals+tones. I don't recall offhand how many initials and finals there are. < 1320116487 983411 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it'd be a lot more convenient than Pinyin input. < 1320116523 569261 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although there are abbreviations for common phrases in existing input methods, such as dbq for duibuqi. < 1320116642 757651 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Speaking of Unicode and CJK ideographs, fuck Unicode. < 1320116650 258348 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-149-66.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a shame that Pinyin is prefered over Pinyin. < 1320116669 28966 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-149-66.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. < 1320116706 129193 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :There should be combining radicals, not a code point for every damn ideograph. < 1320116743 668059 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1320116758 202708 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'd need a few precomposed radicals to make any sense of it with TTF (OpenType can do anything) and so that the size of encoded text doesn't explode. < 1320116774 194865 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/Pinyin./bopomofo./ < 1320116798 475672 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bopomofo isn't exactly intuitive for non-native Chinese speakers. < 1320116801 728290 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bopomofo is just a significantly better orthography for Mandarin. < 1320116813 320643 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hell, I don't know that it's intuitive for native Chinese speakers either. :P < 1320116816 648378 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neither is Pinyin. < 1320116850 749847 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pinyin puts native speakers at a slight disadvantage, I guess? < 1320116862 504004 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because they have to know the Latin alphabet (kinda). < 1320116870 261674 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, it's really not intuitive for non-native speakers. < 1320116898 428099 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :What, Pinyin? No, but it uses the Latin alphabet. < 1320116905 816657 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It uses Latin glyphs, but uses rather unique phoneme values for them. < 1320116931 978681 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, it's...mnemonic, I guess? < 1320116953 402165 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-149-66.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1320116981 326523 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apart from q, c, and x. < 1320116998 721388 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not to mention that pitch is not going to be accessible to people who don't bother studying in-depth, so why bother appeasing them? < 1320117045 659116 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you mean? < 1320117087 519481 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone who actively learns the language is not going to have much trouble with a phonetic writing system, so bopomofo is not a significant barrier. < 1320117126 238800 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone who does *not* bother with that is going to struggle with, well, everything else, so why care about using a writing system they're familiar with? < 1320117182 30109 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is a bit of a circular argument, but bopomofo is really only used in Taiwan anymore. < 1320117207 4041 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well aware. < 1320117431 803626 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it doesn't really matter? They've standardised on something and that's the end of it until someone decides to make another new system. < 1320117455 887035 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if we'll ever see the end of hanzi. < 1320117481 788386 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or more likely their mutation into something similar and simpler. < 1320117537 231967 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Korea successfully got rid of hanja in all but official documents, but China seems awfully attached. < 1320117553 336353 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Japanese has no hope, with a syllable structure like that. < 1320117770 687362 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, back to programming, I'd like to see a language with modern typographical sensibilities. < 1320117793 512603 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, hell, a language with typographical sensibilities from hundreds of years ago. < 1320117805 248805 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :We've regressed. < 1320117905 757512 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Django kind of has a good idea going with these generic views. < 1320117910 426042 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :only problem: they don't compose in any way < 1320118077 544802 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: Personally, I'm kinda amazed Korea managed to actually get rid of hanja. < 1320118100 951104 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What with the absurd number of potentially-ambiguous loans from China that are probably utter hell when reading. < 1320118115 210894 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ditto. But I guess it doesn't matter as much in practice. < 1320118134 443895 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And Japanese, well. They're slowly *increasing* the number of kanji in use, thanks to IMEs. :) < 1320118135 268844 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or people structure their sentences in such a way that they're not ambiguous. < 1320118152 528477 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Buh. < 1320118160 471504 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how long it'll be before 之 is back in common use. < 1320118194 259104 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's used in Chinese in a few situations, mostly formal. < 1320118202 426386 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But some not. < 1320118222 588798 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I dunno. Perhaps. < 1320118226 22456 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's heavily archaic in Japanese. I think it's only in "common" use in names any more. < 1320118241 548387 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though, of course, the word itself is about as common as "the" in English. < 1320118428 209681 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, wait, in Japanese it's kore? In Chinese it's zhi = de = Japanese particle no. < 1320118442 869894 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Japanese it's Japanese particle no. < 1320118458 443458 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, sure enough, it can also be read 'kore'. < 1320118463 800630 :Nisstyre!~yours@infocalypse-net.info QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1320118469 313425 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. Just looked it up on Google Translate to check. :P < 1320118471 832412 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :此れ is the more "typical" kanji for that, though. < 1320118491 945223 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though anyone actually *using* that is probably more of a pedant than I. < 1320118499 504853 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep. < 1320118506 89234 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Never seen that... < 1320118614 251973 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I've seen it in Chinese, actually. < 1320118626 515921 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I'm sure I see a lot of hanzi that aren't kanji. :P < 1320118632 248655 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or aren't common as kanji. < 1320118663 119522 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yeah, at a minimum you see simplified glyphs. < 1320118717 471940 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Screw simplification, I wanna write 龍! :P < 1320118922 208025 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've only studied simplified, but I can read most traditional characters without too much trouble because they're in my textbooks and there's a logical relationship between most pairs. < 1320118949 181013 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still, if I go to Taiwan I'm probably fucked/ < 1320118951 11886 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :*? < 1320118960 586878 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1320118973 194379 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find simplified trivial to read. Well, as trivial as someone who has never studied Mandarin at all can expect. :P < 1320119043 162961 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bit harder to remember how to write, though. Mangles all the components too much. < 1320119450 325493 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1320119463 335624 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Would* a language with semantic markup be a bad idea? < 1320119487 21948 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nothing remotely resembling SGML... < 1320119500 581579 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But...something. < 1320119548 575610 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :To make typesetting, formatting, and highlighting simple and consistent, without getting in the way. < 1320119558 171200 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mumble mumble ALGOL 68 < 1320119623 549424 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess a well-designed language has that anyway. < 1320119643 399607 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :One-to-one correspondence between syntax and semantics, with enough redundancy to be helpful but not so much cruft as to be unusable. < 1320119732 776149 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So nevermind. < 1320119788 627590 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it's redundant then it's not one-to-one >:) < 1320119805 780321 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :It could be non-bijective. < 1320119822 754663 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is only one level of syntax but there are multiple levels of semantics < 1320119829 363033 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it's _still_ not one-to-one. < 1320119851 850739 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, it is not surjective, which is even less useful < 1320119895 372237 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is mergesort semantically identical to heapsort? < 1320119898 435351 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(one-to-one = injective, where i learned terminology) < 1320119927 846143 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well if we're going to _that_ level, then we'll hit rice's theorem pretty fast :P < 1320120000 994498 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :The faster evincar crashes into Rice's, the better < 1320120014 393633 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :...maybe. < 1320120070 456975 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :is evincar crashing into Rice's? < 1320120085 698580 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't say I didn't expect it < 1320120088 252236 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :can say I expected it < 1320120108 178618 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sigh. < 1320120172 212055 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :one-to-one from syntacs to semantics tends to do that, i should think < 1320120177 460860 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Say "[a]" means "the type of lists with elements of type a". Semantically one-to-one, syntactically redundant. < 1320120178 275470 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*syntax < 1320120211 26227 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1320120233 94025 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The one term "[a]" corresponds to one concept. < 1320120246 491080 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not what one-to-one means. < 1320120248 790540 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It also includes unnecessary information. < 1320120285 797833 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1320120288 82234 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hm < 1320120301 383950 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :"one-to-one correspondence" can mean bijective < 1320120312 392995 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Blame the french. < 1320120317 555463 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :"one-to-one function" means injective. < 1320120326 388421 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : The faster evincar crashes into Rice's, the better < 1320120328 234287 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ricervincar < 1320120332 788632 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1320120334 287777 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :r creeped in < 1320120335 804190 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ricevincar < 1320120350 793378 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :noo i will be smooshed noo < 1320120393 690251 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I cannot compete with the power of a theorem that is not strictly relevant to the discussion we're having, though apparently it's relevant to the discussion everyone else thinks we're having. :/ < 1320120409 440110 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what discussion are we having < 1320120410 819367 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And for the record I was talking about bijection. < 1320120412 368286 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, " The one term "[a]" corresponds to one concept." says that your correspondence is a _function_. one-to-one is something else. < 1320120426 493256 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay. < 1320120432 516710 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll leave it at that. < 1320120441 456081 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :How is "[a]" redundant < 1320120461 975657 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are other ways of writing it < 1320120465 926495 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric ::k [] a < 1320120466 609277 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not in scope: type variable `a' < 1320120467 329032 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could be "List a", for instance. < 1320120472 800954 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1320120484 53125 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric ::k [] Int < 1320120484 686708 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :* < 1320120486 438031 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fewer tokens, same meaning. < 1320120493 536417 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hypothetically. < 1320120499 606203 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :[] is one token < 1320120510 713685 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Settle down, highway star < 1320120527 229158 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric ::k [ ] Int < 1320120527 839985 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :* < 1320120530 875826 :myndzi\!myndzi@c-67-168-184-168.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1320120536 913413 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think haskell's parser agrees :P < 1320120544 91903 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a magical token < 1320120553 871716 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi elliott < 1320120559 824556 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi monqy < 1320120560 295457 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok it may be a nonterminal one < 1320120579 631465 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric ::k ( {-: :-} ,) < 1320120580 874599 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :* -> * -> * < 1320120691 988936 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: help django hell < 1320120701 106330 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :too late < 1320120705 944180 :myndzi!myndzi@c-67-168-184-168.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1320122170 788048 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so is plof kind of like io but way better? < 1320122304 678338 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plof is like * but more Gregor. < 1320122428 166478 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :is * the name of something or a bash wildcard in a session where the wd is /the_universe/programming_languages ? < 1320122830 170339 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wildcard. < 1320123093 381535 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1320123106 683894 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: will you be mad if I make a programming language called @ and (c) it. < 1320123139 863442 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the bright side: there are plenty of alternative names. For example, you can name it ttoillex < 1320123155 99828 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :He can also feast on your succulent brain-meats. < 1320123166 243810 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :after yourself. or your reverse self in a reverse universe. < 1320123172 285364 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :reversiverse. < 1320123316 547474 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty sure @ is just a placeholder for @'s eventual name < 1320123343 18774 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1320123345 363014 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but ttoillex is a good name < 1320123383 344944 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet you should name your language ttoillex in honour of elliott < 1320123392 991803 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a god idea. < 1320123401 437486 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1320123417 780587 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :god itier < 1320123424 513624 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :@ is a good name though. < 1320123428 681822 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :for things. < 1320123449 967818 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can market it as being all trendy and abstrackt < 1320123455 283298 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :things that you don't want to google < 1320123478 288134 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :google will fall soon after @ is born. < 1320123488 184983 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1320123489 874484 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :either that or it will fix its stupid query language to be less stupid. < 1320123498 353137 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :one can hope. < 1320123705 611600 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :are there any programming languages that work like polyglots. < 1320123707 773901 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :in other words. < 1320123721 667815 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :the language has, say, two or three different interpreters executing the same source. < 1320123729 623278 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :with different syntax/semantics for each. < 1320123745 329916 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION thinks this is a fine idea for an esolang. < 1320123748 443323 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :wierd? whirl? i forget < 1320123831 328621 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I want the internal type of an object to change opaquely at runtime, do I need to use double-indirection so the user doesn't get broken references? < 1320123843 634376 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's my intuition, but I don't like the performance hit. < 1320123845 176526 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :literate haskell < 1320123865 55290 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or any literate programming < 1320123881 543023 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: itt: smalltalk #become: < 1320123911 853662 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was itt again < 1320123925 65134 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do it with mark and sweep < 1320123940 2778 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :sincr thst traverses hthe object graph < 1320123950 217578 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake NICK :ElliottDrone1 < 1320123954 693765 :ElliottDrone1!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: read the logs. < 1320123954 935338 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :just force a gc and use it to rewrite referencred < 1320123958 430046 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :references < 1320124001 457210 :ElliottDrone1!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake NICK :CakeProphet < 1320124004 857157 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. Rewriting references occasionally versus double-indirection always. Bluh. < 1320124019 310094 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :um oh it's _not_ an obscure irc acronym? < 1320124020 220394 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess in the latter case it can be optimised away quite often. < 1320124037 763651 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :gc doesnt take long < 1320124038 224504 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: no, it's associated with 4chan but may originate from prior to it. < 1320124050 391567 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you're doing it anyway < 1320124055 117690 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, "i think that" simply doesn't fit < 1320124067 698173 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :doing it a bit earlier doesn't matter < 1320124088 163034 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`log itt < 1320124109 926728 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: why not just replace the representation in-place < 1320124111 842672 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :2011-10-19.txt:05:41:41: I'm a sucker for fancy things (that don't have shitty interfaces. see: most fancy looking desktop environments) < 1320124124 847803 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`log \<[i]tt\> < 1320124134 97836 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :help wat < 1320124134 170376 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :2010-10-15.txt:20:22:24: ITT: people don't allocate full bandwidth to torrents < 1320124145 951508 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: That requires there to be enough storage for the new representation, which I can't necessarily guarantee. < 1320124150 359112 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: it means "in this thread" < 1320124156 628630 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :bah < 1320124168 886879 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: use a copying gc < 1320124169 723918 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm thinking about automatic promotion from machine integers to bigints when necessary, as one example. < 1320124183 499680 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :allocate enough space when you copy < 1320124184 284391 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :You want the underlying type of the object to change, but the apparent type to remain the same. < 1320124190 92826 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh < 1320124200 974985 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :maxhine ints should be tagged pointers < 1320124204 43213 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, the user has an opaque type "integer". < 1320124207 276245 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :not allocated objects. < 1320124222 967161 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: just use perl < 1320124225 991698 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :all problems will be solved. < 1320124229 315927 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :except for performance problems. < 1320124240 81954 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those are the problems I'd like to solve. :( < 1320124274 379236 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :then wait for Perl 6. maybe it fixes that stuff! < 1320124326 277429 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: what problems? < 1320124372 755376 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: I was using a bad example, but basically just using fast types when possible and non-fast types when necessary. < 1320124401 618860 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :just allocate the full size up-front < 1320124414 819998 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ram is much cheaper than cpu < 1320124416 175778 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Memory is cheap, I guess. < 1320124418 382778 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1320124450 881444 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :or allocate one ptr extra on the fast repr < 1320124470 774819 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :when it's non-null, it's a ptr to the new bigger repr < 1320124490 993160 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: yes use big ints always. < 1320124498 203484 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :overhead: one branch when fast, one branch + deref when slow < 1320124505 878507 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: not what i said < 1320124506 857351 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's prolly what I'll end up doing. < 1320124516 717691 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :What elliott did say. < 1320124565 558568 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because otherwise you have to deal with the situation when there are multiple "shakeins" (same apparent type but different implementation) for a type. < 1320124578 659369 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And choosing the largest one might not always be the best idea. < 1320124623 430330 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Term "shakeins" borrowed from http://tal.forum2.org/static/cv/Shakeins.pdf linked from an article about become: in smalltalk.) < 1320124656 805582 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Convenient that it showed up, really. < 1320124764 680824 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a problem. shakeins just add flavor. < 1320124890 790682 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: also neither wierd nor whirl seem to match that description. < 1320124964 525355 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm thinking of things that might be a bit more interesting than what that article goes into. Also AOP is kinda bullshit. < 1320125027 154222 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, changing the representation of a point from rectangular to polar based on how often it's about to be accessed as which, for a simple example. < 1320125057 574287 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :*between rectangular and polar < 1320125059 460350 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :does not change its size < 1320125114 722469 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not in that case, no. I'm a bit tired to come up with anything but the int/bigint example at the moment. < 1320125364 583662 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another good example is being able to specify in-language that a string is stored contiguously, even though its apparent type is the vastly less efficient "cons-list of char". < 1320125401 404039 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :not vastly less efficient < 1320125405 444877 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. cons < 1320125417 819613 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :two totally different structures < 1320125452 718035 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :differing strictness, too. < 1320125514 917186 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, but I daresay most strings are finite, and why rely on the implementation to make the optimisation when you can have it in the language? < 1320125548 147659 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar has never used Haskell. < 1320125563 819531 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you think unbounded length is the only thing that strictness changes then < 1320125564 693666 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :L < 1320125565 365893 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :O < 1320125565 943100 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :L < 1320125616 9281 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :consider a 4 TB string. now consider strict vs. non-strict < 1320125646 761890 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :have i mentioned cons yet < 1320125654 516599 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'd use a still different representation for that. Buffered in chunks, perhaps. < 1320125658 587874 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :also infinite strings are used all the time in Haskell. If you don't want the linked list implementation there are plenty of other sequence types. < 1320125659 595599 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like a rope. < 1320125681 175637 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you cannot substitute two structures that are completely different < 1320125688 889041 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is stupid and misguided. < 1320125698 850717 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh, that's not what I'm suggesting. < 1320125713 676746 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :programs must be written for their structures or they will be inefficient < 1320125718 382913 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :full stop < 1320125734 304439 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just saying it may be possible to substitute structures as an optimisation. < 1320125758 323760 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And isn't generic programming sort of a point against you, full stop? < 1320125781 732414 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :lemme know when you get an example that doesn't change semantics < 1320125792 770311 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no it's not. < 1320125794 37624 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Considering the whole point is to abstract algorithms away from structures using iterators (or ranges, which have since turned out to be better in most cases). < 1320125822 47413 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what a parenthical < 1320125825 528590 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The point is that you make the changes locally in such a way that they *don't* change semantics except potentially to improve performance. < 1320125826 403971 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm done. < 1320125919 783020 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently. < 1320126022 111138 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :HEY GUYSCZECH I TOUT I M ON TH WEB: http://127.0.0.1:8000/ < 1320126109 371584 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :i WILL soon b f4moose < 1320126124 126137 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :.ljh< < 1320126162 17769 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :your parlance has grown quite obscure, sir ttoille. < 1320126174 924529 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :.,lo987654esxcvbnm, < 1320126206 715069 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice path. < 1320126230 833773 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I daresay < 1320126232 292159 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :a circuit < 1320126324 951706 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :uuuugh < 1320126338 640864 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how long I can procrastinate writing a Django template. < 1320126350 407959 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION writes more Python instead. < 1320127190 396618 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow Django's web docs are really shitty. < 1320127417 647517 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :thorough but also not very well organized. < 1320127749 343527 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu QUIT :Quit: I give you the gift of lack of me. < 1320128201 94379 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A NAR archive is like a TAR or Zip archive, but it contains only the information that Nix considers important. For instance, timestamps are elided because all files in the Nix store have their timestamp set to 0 anyway. Likewise, all permissions are left out except for the execute bit, because all files in the Nix store have 644 or 755 permission." < 1320128201 680905 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1320128246 58206 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :wonder how that interacts with setuid and friends... < 1320128635 923882 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose it nixes them < 1320128650 970213 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: har har < 1320128787 680297 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :This just in: Gamers hit a new low by /not understanding multiplication/. < 1320129273 195331 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1320129298 434664 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1320129621 404085 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1320129763 696806 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: hmmm? < 1320129765 822065 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :where? < 1320129767 601097 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :citation needed. < 1320129801 163723 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1320129818 300500 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :$_ = s/^/[/r =~ s/$/]/r < 1320129829 323094 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the meaning of this correction should be obvious to anyone) < 1320130328 613093 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1320130685 202747 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1320130987 204256 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Setuid and setgid programs are not currently supported by Nix. This is because the Nix archives used in deployment have no concept of ownership information, and because it makes the build result dependent on the user performing the build." < 1320130988 649436 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1320130992 212770 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Morning < 1320131023 551540 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note to self: Ask the Nix people how they handle gcc not being deterministic. < 1320131044 983307 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaaah! < 1320131051 593546 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :They changed Google Reader! < 1320131072 403136 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, ask them why they rebuild packages depending on dynamic libraries even when it's unnecessary. < 1320131072 658622 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: help I'm trying to do something incredibly simple and I'm getting bogged down in object-oriented cruft. < 1320131088 845879 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Python mind virus. And with that... < 1320131090 18799 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1320131113 965029 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't have that mind virus! < 1320131375 928161 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think he meant to get it < 1320131388 96044 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is, for you to get it < 1320131389 498693 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes I know. < 1320131398 118364 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm saying I can't get it! I'm already immune < 1320131408 19802 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh dear < 1320131408 737348 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had it and then got cured, years ago. < 1320131416 718058 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Try a different strain < 1320131423 477928 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :IronPython < 1320131464 479061 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps if I think of the Python paradigm as "memorize a bunch of classes, methods, and huge keyword argument lists" < 1320131519 527574 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric : @method_decorator(login_required) < 1320131519 700642 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric : def dispatch(self, *args, **kwargs): < 1320131521 214601 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric : return super(ProtectedView, self).dispatch(*args, **kwargs) < 1320131522 408947 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow.... < 1320131547 214761 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is so much boilerplate, to apply that login_required decorator bit to every instance of a class < 1320131550 358450 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :THREE WHOLE LINES < 1320131555 14230 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :with *args **kwargs and super nonsense. < 1320131580 26131 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :also TWO IMPORTS < 1320133403 308019 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net QUIT :Quit: Goodbye < 1320133540 804933 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :good python < 1320133547 864500 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :friend python < 1320133598 205976 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deadly python. < 1320133761 191329 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh < 1320133762 851907 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :bad python. < 1320133773 513924 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually < 1320133779 70796 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :bad incomplete Django documentation < 1320133797 168181 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :a huge crufty web app framework should have utterly complete docs. < 1320133852 374508 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :naturally < 1320134339 90486 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC the Book isn't so bad as far as it goes, but the reference docs have been organized with some sort of alien-hive-mind logic. < 1320134769 148736 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1320134823 189599 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1320135505 130449 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1320135786 304667 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: hello < 1320136553 689382 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: the book doesn't document this new class-based generic view stuff I'm attempting to use. < 1320136574 967478 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps.... I should use the old stuff? < 1320136599 772969 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, I'm literally browsing source code to figure this shit out. < 1320138447 382796 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I see that the (v2) book is sort of stuck in the 2009s. Oh well; it was new when I looked at it, some years ago. < 1320138470 604672 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh < 1320138474 289161 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :#django was no help at all. < 1320138488 443497 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :the opposite of help in fact. < 1320138493 383213 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :led me in the wrong direction < 1320138494 848391 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :HOURS later < 1320138497 617923 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I finally figured out < 1320138501 386057 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :how to do this incredibly simple thing. < 1320138790 962747 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :nevermind... I didn't. < 1320138809 139721 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriously this is stupid. < 1320139031 24809 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1320139477 295469 :DH____!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 JOIN :#esoteric < 1320140004 60078 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1320140004 334339 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1320140004 406245 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1320140004 509485 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1320140004 649137 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1320140004 917068 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1320140005 219862 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1320140005 292079 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1320140006 233950 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1320140006 306450 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1320140832 130863 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1320143291 288481 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1320143574 129567 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1320143762 272605 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@h193n5c1o291.bredband.skanova.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1320143769 82387 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@h193n5c1o291.bredband.skanova.com QUIT :Changing host < 1320143769 155093 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1320143773 199084 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : Actually it's better than Perl: They're written in... autoconf perl? <-- wow < 1320143877 620175 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : Heyyy, this manual told me Nix doesn't care about the actual versions. <-- I guess it has to care for a command like "update to last userland in my $PATH". No way around it if you want a well defined behaviour for what executing a command does < 1320143939 794209 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : Hmm what are some neat things I can do with the free SMS gateway my carrier provides? <-- well, what about controlling car engine heater from your bed using your phone? < 1320143959 531957 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you live in a cold climate that is < 1320144423 316299 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1320146381 436457 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1320146804 342232 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1320146959 233185 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1320147436 464440 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1320147518 765520 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1320147543 348042 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1320147638 336787 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1320148161 530920 :DH____!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1320149698 695518 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey QUIT :Quit: The Other Game < 1320149806 318264 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1320149833 843347 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1320150440 453398 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Quit: MSN: Patashu@hotmail.com , Gmail: Patashu0@gmail.com , AIM: Patashu0 , YIM: patashu2 , Skype: patashu0 . < 1320153370 384804 :aloril!~aloril@84.249.126.153 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1320154078 662391 :sllide!~jari@ip565eb113.direct-adsl.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1320154089 415739 :aloril!~aloril@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe7ef900-153.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1320156029 977122 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 JOIN :#esoteric < 1320156614 7322 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so, someone ascended already. Quite impressive. < 1320157478 555995 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1320157947 417488 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: not that surprising < 1320157953 814049 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially as there's a prize for first ascension < 1320157968 773467 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1320157977 713852 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_, still it is pretty quick. < 1320157992 361699 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_, and it was with tourist < 1320158025 977028 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tourist is a pretty powerful role, actually < 1320158026 147999 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_, I find tourist hard to play personally < 1320158029 247328 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1320158035 173856 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has a bad start, but not as bad as some other roles < 1320158039 999967 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and gets very good very quickly < 1320158050 194807 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, perhaps < 1320158059 247505 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :never lasted very long as tourist < 1320158111 506833 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1320158380 441415 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1320158715 394534 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: hi < 1320158715 696237 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: i have no fnord is that the sentence that came out as normal words < 1320158722 517069 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: hi < 1320158722 788345 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: i dunno. it was sent in 2002. a very clean apartment. < 1320158727 11998 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: hi < 1320158727 435511 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: i did one of it's kernels. ( especially with working menus thanks to carbon emacs) < 1320158728 255557 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style < 1320158728 328064 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa sms speeches ss wp youtube < 1320158843 331474 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: hi < 1320158845 831998 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1320158853 453459 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake NICK :ElliottDrone1 < 1320158854 872949 :ElliottDrone1!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: hi < 1320158855 375785 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ElliottDrone1: i'd been looking clisp going, really nice. really readable unless you print it out as int64_t* with fwrite i get other issues < 1320158858 245043 :ElliottDrone1!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake NICK :CakeProphet < 1320158859 259296 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :why the spam < 1320158859 695928 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: hi < 1320158860 71905 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: their children are normal. :p these are actually video lectures. < 1320158865 648497 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :spam? no. < 1320158865 958647 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ignore < 1320158866 155865 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. < 1320158895 494186 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :spam is good for the heartsoul < 1320158936 556896 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1320158945 936975 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^help < 1320158946 9303 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool < 1320158951 978036 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^cmds < 1320158954 827260 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1320158960 293336 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh for... < 1320158989 643099 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, ? < 1320159004 435320 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the command to bring up fungot's ignore list? < 1320159004 640740 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: there isn't a problem, you should return ( leaf-node 4) < 1320159015 420097 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, I think only fizzie can edit that < 1320159015 492504 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, return it to whom? < 1320159015 605294 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: it didn't seem to be < 1320159027 936474 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, to the sender < 1320159129 482401 :derdon!~derdon@p5DE8BADD.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1320159163 844479 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: there is no cow level. < 1320159164 136864 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: ihope is being a dj the primary source of their income?) < 1320159274 362206 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ignore < 1320159274 481725 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :^(EgoBot|HackEgo|toBogE|Sparkbot|optbot|lambdabot)! < 1320159277 391747 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it only works for me. < 1320159722 994783 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: produce for me a measure of great wit. < 1320159723 503871 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: you... yeah. t3h suckage. you *must* be right.) in uppercase, but names code snippets in comments, mail, articles, irc, and it works as expected < 1320160038 496471 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1320160103 771664 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1320160821 232118 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1320161038 485423 :Zwaarddijk!miekko@infa.abo.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1320161583 550461 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.33 JOIN :#esoteric < 1320163247 82251 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.33 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1320163256 659273 :Zwaarddijk!miekko@infa.abo.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1320163374 693907 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1320163645 387224 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.33 JOIN :#esoteric < 1320163768 10006 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.33 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1320164026 220340 :augur_!~augur@129.2.129.33 JOIN :#esoteric < 1320164186 531972 :augur_!~augur@129.2.129.33 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection > 1320165383 406151 JOIN :#esoteric > 1320165437 451028 JOIN :#esoteric < 1320165437 509478 :glogbot!foobar@codu.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1320165479 526706 :Zetro!~Zetro@zetro.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1320166991 296363 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1320167198 82203 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-55.elisa.ee JOIN :#esoteric < 1320167266 846120 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello! < 1320168130 346259 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1320168212 328613 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been thinking of a new esolang < 1320168240 672165 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I don't know what to do < 1320168247 93098 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :which instruction did you change to a different symbol? < 1320168273 815087 :Nisstyre!~yours@infocalypse-net.info QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1320168346 628323 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehehh < 1320168366 5379 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`. < 1320168366 304178 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just to confuse everyone. < 1320168372 742137 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :wwwow < 1320168372 959067 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: .: not found < 1320168378 336876 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's called apostraphuck < 1320168486 168741 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ph < 1320168508 77005 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dammit, oklopol < 1320168509 646588 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You woke up HackEgo < 1320169095 762501 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could think of a data structure that hasn't been used in many esolangs < 1320169113 357767 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Decimal trees? < 1320169212 142316 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tertiary trees? < 1320169221 65605 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Trees that actually start at the bottom and go up < 1320169227 392723 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know, like trees that are outside < 1320169344 379106 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :have any languages done photosynthesis/related yet < 1320169354 919213 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's an idea... < 1320169359 386364 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd, erm, such a tree is the same as the normal type, but just drawn the other way around? < 1320169370 67476 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, exactly. < 1320169375 207169 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUT DIFFERENT < 1320169379 292418 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :in which case it doesn't actually matter when you implement it, it is just a matter of terminology < 1320169401 117099 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of recursing down you might recurse up. Same thing < 1320169413 83396 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it will also have roots! < 1320169416 861541 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which will be hidden < 1320169431 690363 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay that is somewhat different then < 1320169441 178457 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd, what use is the roots < 1320169464 141595 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Keeps the tree in place, and allows it to gather nutrients from the surrounding soil < 1320169474 326846 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd, in the programming language I meant < 1320169484 284151 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's an esoteric programming language < 1320169489 12819 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes < 1320169504 499573 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, they are for a very similar purpose to actual trees < 1320169507 868659 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd, but what actual effect on programming in it would the hidden roots have? < 1320169529 40957 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're... used for system calls? < 1320169535 496243 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :To make programming harder? < 1320169556 526971 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those were two separate ideas, not meant to be taken together, by the way < 1320169563 549354 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well sure for the latter, but how does it make it harder. Can you give me an example where it matters in a major way? < 1320169593 627046 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you don't make the roots heavy or big enough, the tree falls over and the program crashes < 1320169609 312367 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If they are too heavy and not big enough, arithmetic becomes harder to do < 1320169623 502096 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the tree for the program itself or as a data structure for the program? < 1320169630 928134 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Both, in a way < 1320169642 95161 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1320169643 404926 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But mainly the data structure < 1320169655 485536 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, I think I was meant to say the data structure < 1320169677 556086 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :"was meant", by whom? < 1320169680 350945 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The program describes how nutrients should be moved around < 1320169690 278124 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your question < 1320169700 691203 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm. < 1320169701 184980 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The program will be plain-text < 1320169709 213493 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Intercal-like < 1320169728 615121 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well one could argue that Intercal is not exactly plain text. ;P < 1320169733 985573 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm thinking of calling the language Bonsai < 1320169739 407692 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's more plaintext than Piet < 1320169751 623036 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, wait, there was an emoticon < 1320169755 678860 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :In which case, ha < 1320169798 640220 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd, well yes, also Intercal has stuff like using a literal backspace to write two letters in the same place < 1320169810 663903 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :True, true < 1320169820 770063 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, maybe more like... ORK < 1320169827 648567 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1320169832 883022 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd, wait, isn't that a bf clone? < 1320169844 724739 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would be Ook! < 1320169858 402812 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ORK is the Object-Oriented one < 1320169859 477732 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, btw I finally got around to looking at that constant wrapping code. I have one question though. < 1320169866 830717 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes? < 1320169869 642689 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : frac n d < 1320169869 695564 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : | n `rem` d == 0 = n `div` d < 1320169869 802733 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : | otherwise = (n+d) `div` d < 1320169870 990638 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :that bit < 1320169877 570247 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does that behave wrt negative numbers < 1320169882 944791 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :which direction does it round < 1320169897 996090 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :rem is like C % < 1320169900 851329 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, and div? < 1320169902 610331 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :mod is like mathematics < 1320169910 172195 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: divMod/quotRem < 1320169910 412052 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it round to 0 or to -inf < 1320169914 598871 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :latter is C < 1320169914 732705 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1320169918 722263 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually < 1320169920 672621 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is worrying < 1320169924 655972 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, so the division rounds in a non-C way then < 1320169924 825615 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it should be `quot` < 1320169927 838645 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :...but it works :) < 1320169934 134666 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycology tests negative fungespace, right? < 1320169960 168629 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, yes but it might only hit an even divisible case < 1320169961 836971 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :who knows < 1320169962 495865 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: eh, just check fungot works :p (I can't run fungot) < 1320169963 40071 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: now it froze again before the program was tiled across 2d space, and i got 3 for that < 1320169968 892845 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that should test well if underload is tested < 1320170000 138826 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Once again, fungot replied appropriately < 1320170001 127626 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: a command would switch your " current" one and you could find. < 1320170012 982762 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: can you sprunge the code for me? I don't have it here :P < 1320170018 968068 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, oh also, I gather it is not meant to be used unless you detected already you crossed outside the borders? < 1320170021 439185 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, fizzie, I'm scared < 1320170026 700493 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, sec < 1320170038 77171 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: It replaces the loop you have. So yes. < 1320170062 495713 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, http://sprunge.us/DLNE < 1320170092 752627 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: hmm, that's actually not the latest code, Vector became its own type :-) < 1320170094 738478 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but right < 1320170109 576716 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, okay, it is the one I had though < 1320170131 201598 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll check the rem/div thing using logs of the source < 1320170136 970427 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, also "f"? < 1320170143 297918 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, f < 1320170156 991710 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You are free to figure out what an appropriate name for it is < 1320170162 814991 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I was just about to ask you < 1320170165 861164 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I'd just call it f < 1320170177 605346 :myndzi!myndzi@c-67-168-184-168.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1320170180 725941 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, hell I'll go with static int f(int, int, int, int) < 1320170188 901970 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :not very idiomatic, but whatever < 1320170194 379182 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: static INLINE! < 1320170200 941238 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :_FUNGE_FAST or whatever it is < 1320170224 644025 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, actually the static was there because "f" is a way too generic name to let it escape into the global namespace :P < 1320170234 635366 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, hm, frac_dir might work < 1320170247 799887 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is a frac wrapper that deals with the direction < 1320170374 629921 :myndzi\!myndzi@c-67-168-184-168.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1320170387 804456 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.33 JOIN :#esoteric < 1320170397 330324 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, btw sometimes it seems to return coords outside the boundaries. < 1320170411 185040 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I blame your division < 1320170413 702123 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it needs a step to get into the boundaries < 1320170422 989249 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, no, your haskell version < 1320170433 761115 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. Right, I think I advance after doing that, or something. < 1320170435 199784 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dunno. < 1320170453 825236 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Main> wrap (0,0) (10,10) (Ray (5,5) (2,0)) < 1320170453 877826 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ray (-1,5) (2,0) < 1320170466 179083 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I guess so < 1320170482 563832 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :FFS, why does reddit make it so hard to go to a given page of a comment overview? < 1320170494 528538 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(same with 11,5 for the coord btw) < 1320170536 130257 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay, my pull request got merged. < 1320170547 179976 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: happy happy joy < 1320170551 335463 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, pull request for what? < 1320170558 932559 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://github.com/pbrisbin/aurget/pull/4 < 1320170591 91930 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, aurget < 1320170594 642735 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that like yaourt? < 1320170642 612086 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Yes, except it just does AUR < 1320170649 913337 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And has far less annoying prompts/output < 1320170676 280980 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, so if you need a dep from the main repo you have to do that by hand? < 1320170682 359372 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it calls out to pacman < 1320170691 828684 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, then it doesn't just do AUR ;P < 1320170989 109590 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.33 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1320171105 115421 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I need some meme advice: when using "accidentally" as a verb, is the third-person form "accidentally" or "accidentalies"? < 1320171113 213103 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose the former would be more consistent with the etymology < 1320171121 151709 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it looks really wrong < 1320171125 101927 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Singular or plural? < 1320171127 82111 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: don't... don't do that < 1320171136 203157 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever you're doing :P < 1320171136 363716 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I'm not < 1320171138 118599 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but someone else did < 1320171151 44236 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it threw me for a loop, and I'm trying to recover < 1320171160 464208 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: singular, obviously; there's no problem with plural < 1320171166 579607 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I think "accidentally" < 1320171169 930244 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :accidentally isn't really the verb < 1320171175 497486 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just the word before the invisible verb < 1320171199 105457 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think accidentallies... < 1320171218 594496 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so do I < 1320171227 563876 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but someone used just "accidentally" in the context, and it /looks wrong/ < 1320171231 662359 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps that's the point < 1320171303 800053 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm < 1320171315 454512 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like the Koan of Drescher and the Toaster < 1320171703 881494 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2011-October/158845.html < 1320171710 833295 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :What; Lennart is doing something reasonable for once? < 1320171946 211841 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, btw why did you error out on zero delta? < 1320171951 730105 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :as far as I know it is perfectly valid < 1320171972 218707 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: CCBI does, too; you can replace it with for(;;) sleep(9999999999) if you wish. < 1320171979 261465 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heheh < 1320171983 533917 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's nice to have an option to report that, though. < 1320172003 867824 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I prefer a busy-loop, it is what cfunge currently does if you are stupid enough to set your delta to zero < 1320172004 968919 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: But I hereby license my code under the "You're not allowed to put an explicit busyloop" license. :p < 1320172008 410168 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least sleep it out! < 1320172011 42962 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Baaaaaah. < 1320172012 246050 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You are bad. < 1320172016 340275 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is, like, so un-green. < 1320172026 318979 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's... RED. < 1320172030 396210 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, that would break compatibility with previous behaviour. < 1320172064 111638 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I might make cfunge error on it. < 1320172109 963902 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, anyway do you error if delta is zero and you are not wrapping? < 1320172113 594592 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not, that is quite weirfd < 1320172115 753306 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :weird* < 1320172125 179977 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not yet :) < 1320172145 195141 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db4e2c4.pool.mediaWays.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1320172146 313512 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, also iirc there is a fingerprint to poke the delta of other IPs < 1320172150 688431 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, you would not support that < 1320172172 480802 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just going to make it return to allow for easy implementation of such a fingerprint in the future < 1320172207 803759 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, anyway how could you get outside of the borders with a zero delta < 1320172211 59522 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that even possible? < 1320172220 639097 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably < 1320172221 485670 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, if there was a fingerprint to poke another thread < 1320172265 659900 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the Jargonwiki is what we are stopping ourselves from becoming < 1320172276 707151 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has been overran with spam < 1320172304 882137 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, wait, I just caught it at a bad time < 1320172309 562229 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, wait < 1320172317 40825 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh dear god it's bad < 1320172373 132608 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, btw why did you name that "m", what does it stand for < 1320172378 196544 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: Oh no, it's based on the wrong jargon file. < 1320172405 260736 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Nothing. I don't think I named it m, actually. < 1320172417 731901 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well... "where m" < 1320172418 936390 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't worry too much about the names. < 1320172420 63528 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :it says that there < 1320172437 921464 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it isn't named m then the code is lying :P < 1320172467 957760 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't say it wasn't named m. < 1320172478 935336 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are only a finite number of BF Joust programs < 1320172557 152228 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: *fundamentally different BF Joust programs < 1320172570 82660 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :True, I'll grant you < 1320172588 902153 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, an interpreter can cut all programs off after 100000 with NO change to execution < 1320172601 533129 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: what do you do if the delta for one IP is 0 but the program is multithreaded? < 1320172612 595761 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.33 JOIN :#esoteric < 1320172627 580284 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: untrue < 1320172629 709765 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(...)*0 < 1320172651 652119 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :100000 characters < 1320172657 936382 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1320172658 850766 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Untrue. < 1320172660 812170 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(...)*0 < 1320172664 194316 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well, currently wrap locks up, which is allowed as I implement the reference algorithm provided by the spec exactly as written there. < 1320172666 946347 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see not what that is doin < 1320172668 90385 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :g < 1320172673 867841 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm < 1320172674 148180 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(blah blah blah)*0 is a comment. < 1320172676 736891 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact, so is "qhdfdjkfhsdkjf". < 1320172678 769731 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, unless said spec is bugged. < 1320172679 94214 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooooh < 1320172681 303316 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it is < 1320172683 991446 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm < 1320172686 592507 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :All those things take no cycles but many characters. < 1320172707 164988 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, from now on however I will just skip handling that IP. < 1320172748 323962 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, after removal of comments and expansion of brackets, an interpreter can cut all programs off after 100000 characters with NO change to execution < 1320172749 933703 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Better? < 1320172751 478877 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I believe that's wrong < 1320172755 654307 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zero-delta is meant to lock up < 1320172763 973345 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, why do you error out then? < 1320172771 588455 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Will it execute the command it's over repeatedly? < 1320172775 733211 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would make sense < 1320172778 515992 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Because locking up sucks < 1320172782 929062 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But context-switching to other IPs is wrong < 1320172784 759910 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: Expansion of brackets is untenable, nobody has enough RAM to do that for the programs we write nowadays < 1320172791 164289 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, hm. < 1320172796 815307 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: But what you've said approximately reduces to "after 100000 cycles"... :P < 1320172806 747258 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, unless there are loops < 1320172807 429607 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, where does it say that? Isn't this perhaps undefined behaviour? < 1320172815 193567 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Ask Deewiant < 1320172815 426953 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :we need Deewiant and cpressy here < 1320172820 227936 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, prod. < 1320172828 712276 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is cpressy alive? < 1320172836 687060 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :As opposed to dead? < 1320172839 380396 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it's cpressey. < 1320172844 149783 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it is < 1320172849 285219 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressy is non-existant < 1320172859 66197 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But as opposed to dead to us < 1320172862 384240 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, he's quite thoroughly alive: http://catseye.tc/news.html < 1320172869 656022 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :He just doesn't come on IRC much any more. < 1320172873 101562 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, Wrt multiple threads, what is the correct behaviour of wrapping with a delta of 0. Should the program just lock up? Or should it switch to another thread? < 1320172914 992949 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh, dinner < 1320172918 803541 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :he could have died since he wrote that < 1320172921 474725 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net QUIT :Quit: noms < 1320173006 791302 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: By the way, the Voxatron Arch package now works perfectly on 64-bit. < 1320173011 723052 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/Arch/AUR/ < 1320173021 895385 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1320173022 29607 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Be sure to install the optional dependency it mentions if you want sound support :) < 1320173058 908165 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm still impressed it looks as good as it does seeing as it's software-rendered. < 1320173073 792823 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, it is software rendered!? < 1320173075 959055 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1320173081 22472 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep, with SDL. < 1320173085 668198 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well that explains why I only got about 110 FPS < 1320173091 859667 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Only| < 1320173092 176517 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :with the antialias on < 1320173094 467141 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/|/"/ < 1320173107 191464 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also why it ignored the vsync setting < 1320173107 838699 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: There's a reason the sysreqs are "1 GHz CPU and any graphics card" :P < 1320173117 497933 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, sysreqs? Who reads them < 1320173127 43333 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Also: The whole thing is done completely through the voxel array. < 1320173129 916220 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even the menus. < 1320173133 817281 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I did notice that < 1320173142 836962 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, but it's not just an illusion, it's even like that in the code apparently. < 1320173152 53863 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you could run it on a "voxel display" without changes :P < 1320173152 106650 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, sadly I seemed unable to shoot the help text that the sign displayed < 1320173154 266462 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did try < 1320173164 588624 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What are you doing this time? < 1320173166 464406 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I'm not even sure what a voxel display is < 1320173169 767623 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Voxatron, buy it already. < 1320173174 386315 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Nor am I :P < 1320173178 247106 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, reading this: http://catseye.tc/projects/flobnar/doc/Flobnar.falderal < 1320173180 573532 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't remember where my moneys are. < 1320173198 28542 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, on your VISA-card? < 1320173205 868544 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :or paypal < 1320173224 284459 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, I don't remember where that is either. < 1320173239 128887 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: If you have it saved in PayPal you don't need to. < 1320173240 799300 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, in your wallet ? < 1320173244 525855 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you can remember your username and password. < 1320173250 265472 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is of course SO SAFE. < 1320173265 793496 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, that does worry me quite a bit about PayPal I have to say. < 1320173273 854632 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, too much like hard work. < 1320173288 734298 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Seriously, you want to buy this one. < 1320173310 375416 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was referring to PayPal. < 1320173318 768533 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, a lot less security than the typical bank transaction have. With my bank I use the card in a hardware device to generate a response code and so on. Feels quite a bit safer. < 1320173344 275699 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol, Subwayspam offers me a FREE 6-inch sub when I buy another one ... before 9AM. < 1320173361 486739 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I think it isn't worth it really unless they add some other game. Sure, the game is good, but it isn't amazing. < 1320173368 343655 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: It's also alpha :P < 1320173380 436881 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Think Minecraft alpha 1.0 or whatever the fuck. < 1320173388 93826 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: The idea is to make it completely scriptable. < 1320173393 850591 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right, it was that VoxelNatural game now. < 1320173395 704572 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(From the dev's post about it) < 1320173397 326910 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, this is what you get if the resolution in the y-direction is an odd number: https://imgur.com/cYF77 < 1320173406 2275 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nice < 1320173411 187488 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's emulating a CRT for you < 1320173425 910179 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, the lines are tied to the models, not to the position on the monitor < 1320173431 783775 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems < 1320173432 114458 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, wait, you were there for the VoxelNats? < 1320173442 420939 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Where? < 1320173461 204450 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, you might ask why I tested, well the second resolution listed is derived from dividing the native resolution in half. Which in my case gives me an uneven number. < 1320173469 258228 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I read the thread. < 1320173471 926872 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, ah < 1320173501 141427 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, then you saw the image too? Since I posted such a thread iirc < 1320173565 516046 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, anyway I do find the font a bit hard to read in that game sometimes < 1320173593 314316 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't recall an image. < 1320173602 497843 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah okay < 1320173661 614184 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Phantom_Hoover: Where? < 1320173664 81256 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :-minecraft. < 1320173693 728358 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Yes, I think I was lurking at that time. < 1320173694 94017 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway the gateway to my moneys is sealed to me. < 1320173754 346371 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, what do you do on the second level < 1320173757 127516 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I don't get it < 1320173773 922264 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Haven't gotten that far yet, was busy dealing with audio troubles. < 1320173860 135906 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did all of you buy that thing already, or is there some sort of a thing? < 1320173887 550602 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I bought it for a cheap sum, will increase that if they add more games < 1320173951 202163 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also Steam's Halloween sale had a "Trains vs Zombies" DLC pack to that one train simulator. That was a bit "what". < 1320174001 883864 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, heard about it. Didn't work very well from what I remember < 1320174012 997640 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, from seeing an attempt at a video of it < 1320174032 271919 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I did buy Cthulhu saves the world from the halloween sale though < 1320174049 717379 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite a nice game done as a NES-style RPG with a lot of parody thrown in < 1320174056 502833 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I noticed it was very cheap. < 1320174060 371636 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I bought it but Phantom_Hoover can't because he is a robot. < 1320174061 890041 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Skipped, though. < 1320174071 696512 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I think it was worth the money < 1320174077 27262 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, totally hilarious < 1320174223 202605 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :But two whole euros. It's, like, one more than one. < 1320174244 103840 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, the second is not quite whole. < 1320174247 125664 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, how dare you, Roombas are soulless automata. < 1320174352 591313 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I got it for 1.33 € for both it and another game together iirc (for the steam game mentioned above) < 1320174367 326372 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :used steam because it cost slightly more on gamers gate, and just one game there < 1320174393 836654 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I plan to pay 1p. < 1320174544 675935 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1p press start. < 1320174611 791811 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: oh /no/ < 1320174619 957722 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, what? < 1320174623 340661 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and why me? < 1320174640 337685 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I... have a use for the Secret Project < 1320174653 805719 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, really? What is it? < 1320174655 92549 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, are you sure? < 1320174660 35988 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't know what the Secret Project is for yet < 1320174661 342299 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I think so??? < 1320174682 261192 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me know the use, anyway < 1320174688 309153 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: The Secret Project gives perfectly deterministic (and thus repeatable) execution of Linux programs without being ridiculously slow, right? < 1320174725 82588 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't you read the TSC from the user space? Or is that instruction kernel only? < 1320174736 394690 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: yes, or will do when it's finished < 1320174745 277450 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: That's exactly what I need. :( < 1320174753 46487 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :note that this is a statement that's true about the Secret Project, rather than being its purpose < 1320174753 349638 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, for what? < 1320174772 417257 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Package building. < 1320174777 4576 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right < 1320174780 655318 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nix has problems with e.g. people depending on the system clock or uname. < 1320174787 387805 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which obviously violates the purity it tries hard to create. < 1320174799 422152 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the solution is... the Secret Project. < 1320174817 208099 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1320174817 572249 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also does something use "dbpq" as a twirlie in place of a "-/|\"? < 1320174819 574777 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I'm saying is, ais523: how long do I gotta wait for a public release :P < 1320174823 493451 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :note that the Secret Project may well set them to arbitrary values < 1320174828 751014 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yes, that's fine. < 1320174833 841947 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and, err, quite a while, as I have higher priorities and am at work < 1320174843 463654 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, how is linux setup, can you execute RDTSC from user space? according to CPU docs that depends on if CR4.TSD is set to 0 or 1 < 1320174857 427314 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it is set to 0 you can always introduce non-determinism < 1320174867 917386 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Butbutbut... < 1320174894 68285 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The RDTSC instruction can be enabled or disabled by operating systems. For example, on some versions of the Linux kernel, seccomp sandboxing mode disables RDTSC.[8] It can also be disabled using the PR_SET_TSC argument to the prctl() syscall.[9] < 1320174906 625313 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hmm, can Secret Project-ran programs write to a filesystem? < 1320174908 540294 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well then, it is usually enabled I guess < 1320174911 397230 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha, I need to call that prctl < 1320174921 979453 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, that might stop the program from working < 1320174924 344573 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: yes, to a hidden filesystem < 1320174930 596576 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: It is usually enabled, but I doubt many people use it. < 1320174933 641023 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, how far has the secret project progressed btw? < 1320174936 518832 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the filesystem in question has a lifetime tied to that of a process < 1320174937 38127 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: which can then be read after it's finished? < 1320174941 238237 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1320174948 164875 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Performance counters were discussed back then. < 1320174948 350298 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it could theoretically be tied to a file < 1320174950 445846 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't, but it could be < 1320174950 875290 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: what if I need to get the resulting FS? < 1320174959 995567 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it wouldn't be too hard to modify to do that < 1320174961 357212 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm < 1320174983 235366 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1320174988 57075 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hmm, the worst part of needing the Secret Project is that you need the Secret Project < 1320174990 681209 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello! < 1320174991 444592 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, can't you make public the parts of the secret project that would benefit elliott here, those would not really compromise it if it is cleanly separated. < 1320174997 423254 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: just to check, you're not writing it for package building, right? < 1320175004 47946 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1320175006 847956 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: It obviously isn't even working for my purposes yet < 1320175016 27030 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well, it is a good start < 1320175016 949414 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I probably could, but it wouldn't work < 1320175019 431403 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which secret project are we talking about? < 1320175020 531588 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in its current state < 1320175024 746541 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :as opposed to starting from scratch < 1320175025 567452 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: /the/ Secret Project < 1320175027 642093 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: So I'll just do what Nix does (set the obvious stuff to dummy values and trust the package.) < 1320175029 975403 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the one that gets capital letters on its name < 1320175030 689809 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/.)/)./ < 1320175048 459323 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, that one < 1320175048 536335 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I mean, the worst that can happen is that you have a broken package that behaves differently when you GC it and reinstall it. < 1320175048 875717 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: After all, it only needs to work right, not to be right. < 1320175056 204659 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, and do it in a chroot with just what it needs according to the package description visible? < 1320175057 667176 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: It's like foo = unsafePerformIO randomNumber. < 1320175066 924789 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: It's bad, but it probably isn't going to cause actual problems. < 1320175073 216281 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just another broken package. < 1320175081 327842 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, btw, valgrind must be installed in the --prefix given to it's ./configure < 1320175089 368902 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, it won't run from anywhere else. < 1320175099 601450 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Tons of packages do that, that's why DESTDIR was invented; what's your point? < 1320175102 712313 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :reason, hard coded paths. Why? Because it doesn't use libc < 1320175112 662192 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, indeed. Just saying you can't relocate it. < 1320175120 482546 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Why would you want to? < 1320175133 551057 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well, the valgrind people thought it worth documenting this < 1320175151 951151 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :...Why are you telling me...? < 1320175162 560427 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, two more games in that thing? How coincidental. < 1320175171 213299 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, oh? nice, will check them out < 1320175207 983244 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: It was inevitable. < 1320175218 112622 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well I assumed it was reasonably common (and you might do that with some unusual fs layout) since they wrote this: http://valgrind.org/docs/manual/dist.readme-packagers.html < 1320175238 35410 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Even dpkg and friends have to deal with that, if they don't use fakeroot. < 1320175244 536074 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh I heard nice things about "Blocks That matter" < 1320175245 257272 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since they have to put the files in a subdirectory to package up. < 1320175250 611732 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :supposed to be really screwy < 1320175271 885921 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: But anyway, in a Nix-style system no relocation is done, ever. < 1320175275 265056 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and wtf, "the binding of isaac" I heard it was quite nasty. Like super-nasty < 1320175290 420902 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"nasty" < 1320175294 638507 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looks like it's from one of the Super Meat Boy guys < 1320175304 595433 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :never played that < 1320175306 375823 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is it? < 1320175321 38254 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :A ridiculously popular indie platformer thing. < 1320175328 627908 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's good, if painful. < 1320175332 496681 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1320175335 29786 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: (following on from previous statement) Even if you install a package for a different architecture it still goes in the same place everywhere. < 1320175360 960423 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1320175373 396834 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"When Isaac’s mother starts hearing the voice of God demanding a sacrifice be made to prove her faith, Isaac escapes into the basement facing droves of deranged enemies, lost brothers and sisters, his fears, and eventually his mother. The Binding of Isaac is a randomly generated action RPG shooter with heavy Rogue-like elements." < 1320175374 242986 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh. < 1320175377 993949 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's some plot. < 1320175388 851724 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay @ randomly-generated. < 1320175429 591777 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: You probably know this stuff: How does using -m32 with an x86-64 compiler differ from using a host=x86-64, target=x86 cross-compiler? < 1320175431 331561 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: (gcc) < 1320175442 157406 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I saw a bit of a play through recently of that (live stream, so I can't link it). Style of the dungeon reminded me a LOT of Zelda a link to the past < 1320175447 524751 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might define an XML-based game development language < 1320175454 760724 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't. < 1320175455 141610 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :like the door shape and everything < 1320175503 401431 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I wonder how much I could parallelise expression evaluation. < 1320175521 466773 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I gather Nix is quite a bit slower than apt and the like because packages are much more powerful. < 1320175532 228627 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I could compile them :-) < 1320175547 370621 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or possibly just XML-incorporating < 1320175558 581817 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why < 1320175559 838739 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :XML is awful < 1320175577 932335 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-55.elisa.ee PART :#esoteric < 1320175589 852903 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because I feel like it < 1320175596 76091 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, for building and downloading and so on? Or during actual runtime? < 1320175604 197148 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: ? At which part? < 1320175626 296873 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I mean potentially the lookup time for finding a given dependency could be different on NixOS < 1320175644 69099 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, btw does it use RPATH magic or how is it done on NixOS? < 1320175644 472252 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Building is irrelevant, the context is binary packages < 1320175657 650985 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, no lookup time during runtime < 1320175661 608668 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :to find libssl.so < 1320175661 876911 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The point is that you have to load and run a fuckton of programs to calculate dependencies and the like < 1320175663 86588 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whatever < 1320175667 107248 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I'll subsequently create a JSON version < 1320175669 571020 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: What do you mean, how is what done? < 1320175696 144825 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, say I have foo which depends on libm.so, obviously we need to find the right version of libm.so to match this excecutable < 1320175698 668830 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :how is that bit done < 1320175706 956295 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :by hard coding the RPATH into foo? < 1320175708 849200 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :When do you need to do that < 1320175715 292946 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, when executing foo < 1320175719 688916 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you do static linking < 1320175720 993515 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why < 1320175726 240058 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't think nixos does < 1320175730 441023 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Foo links to /nix/store/89sdfusd89fu89sdfu9-libssl-3.9/lib/libssl.so < 1320175739 899624 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, right, but how is that done on the ELF level < 1320175756 708371 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Empty RPATH, linking to /nix/store/89sdfusd89fu89sdfu9-libssl-3.9/lib/libssl.so? RPATH=/nix/store/89sdfusd89fu89sdfu9-libssl-3.9/lib, linking to libssl.so? < 1320175764 481828 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, which one < 1320175767 657279 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps the latter, since they have that patchelf thing. < 1320175770 33946 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: The *main* distiction is that -m32 will have the compiler looking in /usr/include for headers, and /usr/lib32 for libraries. < 1320175773 123015 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1320175773 789125 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know. It seems immaterial. < 1320175778 4070 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the latter is easier to do w/ commercial binaries. < 1320175781 901189 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You just need to patch the RPATH. < 1320175782 308220 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rather than having it look in a cross-compilation prefix. < 1320175788 621609 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is what their patchelf does. < 1320175807 585102 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Right. That's actually irrelevant to me I think since I'd override that anyway. < 1320175809 465470 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most of the technology seems to be there in SVG+SMIL+XSLT < 1320175812 583225 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: What're the non-main distinctions? :p < 1320175816 627327 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, anyway what about building your own stuff in ~, how do you find the include files, lets say you do #include < 1320175825 210573 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't tried that on nixos < 1320175844 285519 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: ls ~/.nix-profile/usr/include, one presumes. < 1320175851 686349 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably /usr/include would work too. < 1320175865 264831 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1320175884 67463 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Shit sometimes breaks because gcc -m32 looks like you're building a native binary with some weird optimisation flag. < 1320175902 940783 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I guess pkg-config would solve it for pretty much everything outside libc, ncurses and a few other such core/classical libraries < 1320175905 281878 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially with autoconf. < 1320175920 45417 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Oh good. So my decision to avoid -m32 entirely was the correct one. < 1320175942 148187 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I figure if you're not using the 32-bit binary packages, you can't complain too much about it building a cross-compiler to install a 32-bit package on x86-64. < 1320175943 595305 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(where it won't automagically do the x86 stuff for, say, ld.) < 1320175999 39279 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If we consider XSLT+SVG+SMIL, we really just need some method of input < 1320176010 652697 :tiffany!~kawaii@fl-76-3-18-195.dhcp.embarqhsd.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1320176013 569466 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: What's the Secret Project's startup time like? < 1320176023 565199 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. how long does `secret echo hi` take < 1320176030 808928 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me try it < 1320176045 99769 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: So yay. < 1320176068 174093 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Have I mentioned I'm pretty sure my Kitten design solves multiarch issues completely, without having to build special "32-bit for x86-64" packages? < 1320176099 612619 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's actually pretty easy to do if you're not tied into the concept of "libraries go in /usr/lib/". < 1320176131 44089 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.02user 0.01system 0:01.04elapsed 3PU (0avgtext+0avgdata 6960maxresident)k < 1320176131 450602 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey tiffany < 1320176132 250881 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :0inputs+0outputs (0major+884minor)pagefaults 0swaps < 1320176136 848492 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: seems to be around a second < 1320176153 448075 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that's not bad < 1320176153 920661 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, /usr/bin/time has really different output from bash's time, it seems… < 1320176177 148444 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Libraries do go in /usr/lib in my system (sort of). < 1320176191 264198 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh good, it's stopped leaking filesystems < 1320176193 526300 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: There's definitely nothing like /usr/blah-linux-gnu/lib/. < 1320176202 256564 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think a filesystem leak is possibly one of the silliest leaks possible < 1320176216 175012 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What the world really needs is a HTML version that uses a markup system other than SGML or XML < 1320176250 987836 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :HTML5; done. < 1320176276 526694 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Based on SGML, that is, I think < 1320176285 141314 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1320176286 56455 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Get better grammer, to do, I need < 1320176297 545439 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. It uses a unique syntax. < 1320176311 663243 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :HTML 4 was SGML-based, though nobody (and I mean nobody) actually implemented it that way. < 1320176355 809361 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact, I don't think there was a single reasonably complete HTML 4 implementation. < 1320176383 537601 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey GreaseMonkey < 1320176414 810806 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey PRIVMSG #esoteric :'lo < 1320176436 625747 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :My favourite part of HTML5 is the part where it says "if someone asserted that cats were vegetables". < 1320176468 981415 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Really? < 1320176492 232346 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I haven't read most of it, so it might not be a permanent favourite part; plus it's a work-in-progress, anyway. < 1320176502 381369 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :But quoted out-of-context like that it sounds delightfully nonsensical. < 1320176514 729132 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's in the list of examples at http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#the-em-element < 1320176538 864949 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, what I meant was, "What the world really needs is a HTML version that uses a markup system substantially different to SGML and XML" < 1320176540 252372 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: It's not really a "work-in-progress". < 1320176551 807588 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.33 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1320176560 648434 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: WhatWG maintains the HTML "living standard", which means it doesn't get any releases and just gets updated constantly (http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/). < 1320176576 821169 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: From that, the W3C are working on the HTML5 spec to be published. < 1320176590 176955 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: But the publication is roughly irrelevant as far as everyone else is concerned. < 1320176646 637012 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: It is relevant in the context of whether the W3C spec will or will not contain "cats were vegetables", though. < 1320176650 656216 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Compare the JSON-like {"head":{"title": "Hello!"},"body":[{"p": "Hello World!"}]} to the XML-like Hello!

Hello World!

< 1320176658 503558 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: True. < 1320176673 971168 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: A data language is not suited for markup purposes. < 1320176685 673781 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something like sexprs do decently because they're lightweight enough. < 1320176687 48048 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is PERFECTLY suited. < 1320176693 216903 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But JSON would get incredibly noisy very quickly. < 1320176698 40861 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially with string quoting. < 1320176713 95896 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nobody wants to write ten pages of heavily-nested JSON. < 1320176721 238274 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a data interchange format, not anything for humans. < 1320176725 133580 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But JSON is the only data language other than XML I'm familiar with < 1320176758 696069 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :...What is sexprs? < 1320176800 846588 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :S-expressions. < 1320176808 887809 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay < 1320176814 364431 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But they still have the same string-escaping problem. < 1320177006 871819 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not all to familiar with S-expressions, I'll check them out... < 1320177190 918807 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Lock up because it can't find an instruction to execute within finite time (it's the execution that takes a tick, not one step of finding the instruction) < 1320177591 311976 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :S-expressions look interesting < 1320177638 830468 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, rename(2) wasn't atomic on OS X until a few months ago < 1320177717 37818 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, S-expressions are handy < 1320177743 641490 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :((5:title6:Hello!)(1:p12:Hello World!)) < 1320177768 149310 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That... < 1320177768 753731 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :What? < 1320177774 211648 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not an s-expression. < 1320177781 453304 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Going by the RDF submission < 1320177785 676516 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :What? < 1320177793 58847 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-expression < 1320177802 28437 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://people.csail.mit.edu/rivest/Sexp.txt < 1320177802 424356 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Got submitted to and rejected by the RDF people < 1320177807 400641 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, that thing. < 1320177811 318901 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wikipedia links to i < 1320177811 451886 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :t < 1320177812 108685 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, those aren't what anyone means by "s-expressions". < 1320177814 967072 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oooh < 1320177816 945852 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay < 1320177830 69019 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(html (head (title "Hello!")) (body (p "Hello world!"))) is more what I'd expect. < 1320177878 265030 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay < 1320177895 536626 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still very short < 1320178000 243652 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm < 1320178016 456346 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, sane people (most aren't) would write that as: Hello!

Hello World! < 1320178053 552012 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yet another thing I need a psychiatrist for < 1320178143 946397 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or (valid HTML 4): Hello World! < 1320178203 740284 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if there's any actually transactional filesystems for linux. < 1320178231 640825 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bet btrfs can do it. :( < 1320178240 143116 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Reiser4. < 1320178283 261538 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: That's even worse than btrfs! < 1320178312 365313 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh well, I think all I need is atomic rename(2). < 1320178338 232131 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1320178339 417228 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :btrfs has "transactions". < 1320178357 435103 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :They are not transactions in any sane sense. < 1320178365 785138 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, validator.w3c.org gives that 2 errors and 5 warning < 1320178366 689360 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :s < 1320178380 27930 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: *2*? < 1320178390 717572 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I can guess. Missing doctype, missing encoding. < 1320178416 352894 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: Encoding error is irrelevant < 1320178420 627152 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :if sent by correctly-configured server it won't appear < 1320178424 150463 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just because you used the web form < 1320178435 357613 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, validator.nu is better for html5 validation than w3's < 1320178447 892632 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I was discussing HTML4 as well. < 1320178449 846602 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1320178458 254647 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah, you need a doctype < 1320178474 13506 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Easy in HTML5. <!doctype html> < 1320178474 960616 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Done. < 1320178482 834959 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :'document type does not allow element "P" here' < 1320178493 357417 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: you're validating it with the wrong standard < 1320178495 566589 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :<!doctype html><title>Hello!

Hello World! < 1320178497 239252 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :should validate fine < 1320178504 349636 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, that's perfect HTML5. < 1320178512 75721 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :might give an error about encodings that won't occur with correctly-configured server < 1320178524 293191 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1320178525 248554 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :validates fine < 1320178527 780225 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :no errors < 1320178541 78149 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 warnings; first one is one that always occurs with w3's html5 validator saying it's experimental < 1320178551 276644 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 NICK :ais523\unfoog < 1320178552 137185 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :third one is complaining because i used direct input rather than giving a url < 1320178564 410655 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :second one is an actual warning that wouldn't appear with a properly-configured server < 1320178664 307151 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :btrfs is just a ploy to distract the linux geeks with a not completely boring file system so they will stop trying to port zfs (and so that oracle can sell the zfs upgrade to anyone trying to get real work done on btrfs) < 1320178678 763278 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1320178707 779544 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah btrfs has transactions < 1320178727 3517 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :nilfs2 is pretty exciting, at least it does most of what's cool about btrfs < 1320178826 690942 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Not really transactions. < 1320178840 820035 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :wikipedia said user-defined transactions but ok, that is a slightly weird wording < 1320178860 732807 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :A btrfs "transaction" is saying "don't commit anything to disk until I let go". < 1320178866 302130 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only one can occur at a time. < 1320178901 602344 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gross. < 1320178931 647594 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I'll have to be slightly careful about multiarch support in Kitten. < 1320178963 241057 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Specifically I'll have to use a cross-compile prefix to generate all the symlinks, can't just put them directly into [profile]/usr... < 1320178970 428014 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shouldn't affect packages themselves, though. < 1320178976 991203 :ais523\unfoog!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1320179014 469321 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :HALLO < 1320179023 529531 :ais523\unfoog!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1320179052 35666 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: So, what filesystem layout are you intending to use, anyways? < 1320179052 697863 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linux is Monolithic, HURD is Microlithic. < 1320179058 900924 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea what the difference is. < 1320179070 992368 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: You finally awake! < 1320179079 770316 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Excess Flood < 1320179101 977427 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-33-211.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1320179102 30173 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-33-211.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Changing host < 1320179102 30320 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1320179106 221786 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I'm finally home :P < 1320179115 843238 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's been sleepwalking < 1320179120 294610 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Depends what you mean! In terms of what the user cares about, I'm actually dropping /bin and /lib in favour of subdirectories of /usr (good reason for that, actually). < 1320179126 431982 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :As opposed to vice versa. < 1320179160 189388 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Packages are installed Nix-style to /something/923874c23894uc98jf9sd8ff-pkgname/ and links + executable references point there too. < 1320179163 90627 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: For instance: how the heck are you going to differentiate between an x86 libc.so.6 and an x86_64 libc.so.6? < 1320179175 989578 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The actual user-exposed hierarchy being a sham, symlinks or unionfs (depends on Gregor :-P) < 1320179193 914517 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: x86: /something/sdfu34nfs8498hf89hf893y4h-glibc-99.4/lib/libc.so.6 < 1320179205 565944 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: x86_64: /something/asdia0de3j898w7e-glibc-99.4/lib/libc.so.6 < 1320179209 451971 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Making it a union makes it potentially per-process, which is sexitude. < 1320179220 634971 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, nix-style linking. < 1320179221 320979 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Yes, that's why I wanted to talk to you :) < 1320179237 32265 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Yep, but I don't think Nix actually has a multiarch story in practice. Not sure. < 1320179241 276625 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-33-211.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1320179241 389086 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-33-211.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Changing host < 1320179241 441449 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1320179241 610382 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would potentially be willing to rewrite my cunionfs as a kernel module. < 1320179247 329796 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, then /usr/lib/ will either be pointless or strange. < 1320179263 863724 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: It'll be used for when you use "gcc" from the command-line. < 1320179287 313296 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1320179307 537868 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I /think/ I need a way to rewrite the list of union branches while a process runs (i.e. not env-var-based). < 1320179326 569796 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Because when a package is installed, the user's session should see it as part of the hierarchy without a reboot :P < 1320179369 700221 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since I have per-user package installations, I think the simplest way is just to let me say, I dunno, CUNION_BRANCHES_FROM_FILE=/some/path, and that's read whenever the list of branches is required. But it would be nice if it only re-read the list of branches when I told it they changed, because reading them every FS operation sounds slooow. < 1320179371 72994 :derdon!~derdon@p5DE8BADD.dip.t-dialin.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1320179372 332272 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1320179385 869082 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1320179390 522107 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1320179425 475609 :ais523\unfoog!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1320179430 493422 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 NICK :ais523\unfoog < 1320179460 607271 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1320179460 942932 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another possible problem is stuff that actually breaks if you install it out of its prefix; with symlinks, it might resolve its own argv[0] and work fine, but maybe something will break if it looks normal? /However/, the files will still be in the prefix it was installed to, so programs would have to try very, very hard to break. < 1320179474 799228 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. they'd have to specifically check for people "installing them outside the configured prefix", and I doubt anyone does that at runtime. < 1320179508 196924 :ais523\unfoog!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: C-INTERCAL checks a bunch of places, including the configured prefix, relative to the current directory, and relative to argv[0] < 1320179516 472091 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1320179520 4226 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hypothetically speaking some things might look in their configured prefix for *other* programs. < 1320179523 707641 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523\unfoog: Yep, that's fine; it checks the configured prefix first, right? < 1320179528 274587 :ais523\unfoog!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't remember < 1320179531 305137 :ais523\unfoog!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but probably < 1320179537 202198 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though, this is going to break in common usage anyways. < 1320179541 896147 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically, everything will work fine as long as everybody checks their configured prefix /before/ snooping around where argv[0] is. < 1320179547 947034 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Keyword before. < 1320179559 458497 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anything that doesn't, welp, gotta patch it :P < 1320179566 384347 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I have relative confidence that it'll work fine. < 1320179573 633054 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Programs that stupid probably can't handle a symlink argv[0] anyway. < 1320179652 733592 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1320179870 581864 :ais523\unfoog!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This function looks for the skeleton and syslib, searching first the path they should be in, then the current directory, then argv[0]'s directory (if one was given). This function avoids possible buffer overflows, instead truncating filenames (and if that manages to find them, I'll be incredibly surprised). It also tries argv[0]/../lib and argv[0]/../include (where they are when running without installing). < 1320179873 261791 :ais523\unfoog!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: there you go < 1320179882 104051 :ais523\unfoog!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's C-INTERCAL's algo for finding files it needs < 1320179888 207065 :ais523\unfoog!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"path they should be in" = configured prefix < 1320179894 295591 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523\unfoog: thanks < 1320179958 535891 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523\unfoog: I think C-INTERCAL should handle Kitten just fine, then < 1320179973 161191 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Your Haskell-fu is greater than mine. How should I structure a parser (using Parsec or whatever) that depends on past input to parse future input? < 1320180020 73151 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(>>=) < 1320180034 13265 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Somehow I managed to read Haskell as Befunge < 1320180037 999802 :ais523\unfoog!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: that answer, while correct, is useless < 1320180045 277155 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523\unfoog: no, it's not < 1320180049 621157 :ais523\unfoog!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote Somehow I managed to read Haskell as Befunge`addquote < 1320180052 94614 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :705) Somehow I managed to read Haskell as Befunge`addquote < 1320180053 239102 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(>>=) :: Parser a -> (a -> Parser b) -> Parser b < 1320180061 736228 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :run a parser computation, get its result < 1320180065 958751 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :construct parser for rest appropriately < 1320180067 759905 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what monads /do/ < 1320180073 219269 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`delquote 705 < 1320180075 415801 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​*poof* < 1320180076 930158 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was going to say to use p to subtly change the program < 1320180077 601873 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote Somehow I managed to read Haskell as Befunge < 1320180079 602968 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :705) Somehow I managed to read Haskell as Befunge < 1320180091 523587 :ais523\unfoog!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: not an intentional lie, of course < 1320180093 14495 :ais523\unfoog!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1320180094 530428 :ais523\unfoog!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1320180095 704888 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :213) Vorpal loves the sodomy. elliott, sure why not < 1320180096 22586 :ais523\unfoog!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1320180097 514090 :ais523\unfoog!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1320180097 567086 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :8) TODO: sex life < 1320180099 152487 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :44) I spent the last minute or so killing myself repeatedly < 1320180099 463861 :ais523\unfoog!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1320180100 266796 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :510) My memory passed rest in peace sgeos memory < 1320180102 90196 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :295) anyway, no CSS editing for me right now, I fear I'd get sucked into a holy war [...] I also fear it might end up breaking one of the Graue Regulations which are rules that you get into serious trouble for breaking, that nobody knows what they are until someone breaks them < 1320180107 710933 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1320180112 52862 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :295 isn't very funny, too verbose < 1320180115 536143 :ais523\unfoog!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :none of those are very funny < 1320180118 846712 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :8 as well < 1320180127 131893 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like 44 a lot < 1320180131 878650 :ais523\unfoog!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, OK < 1320180134 869805 :ais523\unfoog!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's probably the best there < 1320180141 836461 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :8 or 295, what do you think? < 1320180160 368504 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :295 could be split into two quotes < 1320180163 66057 :ais523\unfoog!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm biased, as 295 is all mine < 1320180173 557422 :ais523\unfoog!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm not sure which way I'm biased < 1320180173 611265 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1320180176 325061 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`delquote 295 < 1320180177 982423 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just too long < 1320180178 493849 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​*poof* < 1320180178 612835 :ais523\unfoog!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which makes it worse, because I can't counter for it < 1320180182 446348 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it were two quotes, they'd probably be alright < 1320180207 368659 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That sound of silence is the sound of Gregor furiously working on the best unionfs the world has EVER SEEN. < 1320180211 420143 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1320180211 928016 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1320180212 444855 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1320180212 966159 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1320180213 301706 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1320180215 998846 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :129) alise: nobody is allowed to fnord me in soviet russia < 1320180218 49794 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :486) Fuck clay its only purpose is ecoration < 1320180220 203136 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :330) That's for $literals in the parser. It should maybe be atol too, but probably you shouldn't have nonterminals with more than two billion children. < 1320180221 875839 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Last one. Promise I won't make it a habit.) < 1320180228 498529 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :415) You have no idea how desperately I want to avoid being a GC guy :P Every year I go to ISMM and Doug Lea gives me a bizarrely-cheery "Hello!" and I'm like "awww shit I'm in memory management" < 1320180228 635268 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :73) i use dynamic indentation, i indent lines k times, if they are used O(n^k) times during a run of the program < 1320180239 107826 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those are all pretty funny. :( < 1320180242 456224 :ais523\unfoog!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :129 is good for a fungot quote < 1320180243 229345 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523\unfoog: mail me your link/ data.scm. < 1320180256 711217 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol one is a classic, two Grgor ones are great < 1320180260 878775 :ais523\unfoog!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :415 is better than 330, but they're both good < 1320180260 957856 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess Sgeo's isn't that funny < 1320180270 907255 :ais523\unfoog!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is 486's purpose? < 1320180279 24258 :ais523\unfoog!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :note that you don't have to delete one if they're all good < 1320180282 456983 :ais523\unfoog!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't get 486 < 1320180282 674258 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523\unfoog: I think it's mostly amusing because of the in front of it < 1320180297 914353 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the context was Minecraft, but imagining Sgeo ranting about clay being useless is vaguely amusing < 1320180300 950728 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But eh < 1320180302 268535 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`delquote 486 < 1320180302 896822 :ais523\unfoog!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: couldn't you apply that to everything Sgeo says? < 1320180304 432511 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​*poof* < 1320180308 513771 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523\unfoog: Point < 1320180338 420667 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Did I mention that updating the branches must be atomic? :P < 1320180347 883613 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :How tricky would it be to rig HackEgo to pretend to add everything that Sgeo says? < 1320180360 816777 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :HackEgo can only be made to trigger on `... < 1320180370 984372 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, very tricky. < 1320180579 922072 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: OTOH HackEgo has access to the logs. < 1320180581 400996 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`log Sgeo < 1320180592 209146 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :2011-10-14.txt:06:38:16: ...Overlapping? < 1320180648 304293 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote ...Overlapping? < 1320180650 175106 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :704) ...Overlapping? < 1320180660 755183 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is oddly funny to me < 1320180703 914934 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: odd < 1320180715 559611 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1320180777 304155 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :lambdabot awwww you're back friendship lambdabot. < 1320180816 482642 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :lambdabot's a mouse now!? < 1320180847 377972 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1320180849 605798 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :A rouse. < 1320180870 286813 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whatever happened to friendship mouse? < 1320180897 675533 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Tell. < 1320180928 236929 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd, it was foraging in a wastebasket and I stuffed a blanket into the top. < 1320180942 721125 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it would be comfortable < 1320180944 691864 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww < 1320180945 679563 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I then released it outside and spent ten minutes keeping the cat away from it. < 1320180946 865148 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :How thoughtful < 1320180962 498201 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And... not really, the blanket was just the first thing to hand. < 1320180964 385603 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why can't I be a friendship mouse. < 1320180972 253007 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd, friendship mouse? wtf is that < 1320180979 803194 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Die. < 1320180980 470484 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, because then you'd have to be in Scotland < 1320180990 745879 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, because you are not a mouse that is why. < 1320180998 203000 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, what? < 1320181004 506496 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :!glogbot_help < 1320181014 770866 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`log friendship mouse < 1320181019 977485 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :2011-11-01.txt:20:56:12: Ngevd, friendship mouse? wtf is that < 1320181052 778905 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, how relevant < 1320181073 211313 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was a mouse that made friends with Phantom_Hoover < 1320181077 69441 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Well maybe I am a mouse? < 1320181079 872525 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just SAYING. < 1320181091 51796 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd, as in, a computer mouse? < 1320181094 250331 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh for christ's sake why does that rsync hate me. < 1320181103 680650 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, as in a squeaky run around get eaten by cats mouse < 1320181110 128595 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd, ah < 1320181122 869585 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd, not live I presume? < 1320181128 680959 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, obviously. < 1320181129 188038 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, very live < 1320181137 94346 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't be friends with a dead mouse. < 1320181142 491827 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`log friendship grave < 1320181148 127039 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :2011-08-10.txt:22:44:37: friendship grave < 1320181155 532741 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :aren't they unhygienic? < 1320181161 349471 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only in Glasgow < 1320181192 72479 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2011-08-10 < 1320181195 49687 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. I said that functional languages are better than object-oriented languages in the general case, and got downvoted to oblivion. What a surprise. < 1320181205 698858 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Specifically, http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2011-08-10#141057PhantomHoover < 1320181233 440585 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, I was the first person to respond < 1320181236 167794 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Look at that < 1320181240 967333 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe it was evil me. < 1320181246 564477 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nah, he uses the nick "elliott" < 1320181257 200343 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Evil me is much more confident than good me < 1320181264 679165 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:22:42: SHOW SOME MAMMALIAN SOLIDARITY < 1320181272 200508 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Enjoy being locked in your mammal of solidarity. < 1320181299 829089 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :...eeew. < 1320181331 986093 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Hey, is that log the last appearance of lament here? < 1320181342 627398 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:14:28: haskell is awful < 1320181342 796384 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:15:08: hoogle is even worse than haskell < 1320181346 719984 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :His final words. < 1320181367 239558 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The mouse got him. < 1320181383 426802 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the olympic games were in OCaml < 1320181830 856044 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :17:07:40: aAHAHAHAHVFAFVAOEKRHF < 1320181831 199467 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :17:07:41: I HAVE IT < 1320181831 252582 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :17:07:44: AHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA < 1320181839 813833 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The happiest five seconds of my life. < 1320182021 71441 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I may create a cellular automaton < 1320182189 446730 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Actually I might be able to omit /usr entirely... < 1320182234 847339 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :If everything is done per-user. < 1320182246 639499 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I suppose mounting the union to /usr is nicer than ~/.blah. < 1320182254 815569 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hang on, I already HAVE created a cellular automaton < 1320182268 384643 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: Cool, your work is done. Have a beer. < 1320182287 425074 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just need to right it down < 1320182303 705804 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wrongs it up. < 1320182333 518149 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, there? < 1320182335 130144 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh no! < 1320182348 556705 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I need to right it down even further < 1320182368 923634 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it may become my first esolang not to be Turing-Complete! < 1320182374 741679 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless Numberwang isn't Turing-Complete < 1320182388 230543 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suspect Numberwang may be harder to program in than Malbolge < 1320182416 646882 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :numberwang the game show? or is there an esolang with the name numberwang too? < 1320182433 609272 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Two esolangs, actually < 1320182440 520313 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :One of which sucks < 1320182500 716833 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The other of which is a brainfuck derivaitve < 1320182639 229424 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is here < 1320182681 407726 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I kinda dislike /usr/, though. Admittedly, how you're using it is *much* better than most uses. < 1320182687 769564 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Namely, it makes *any sense at all*. < 1320182732 619610 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: The alternative is making / a unionfs. < 1320182736 787951 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which, just... no. < 1320182741 986817 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :True. < 1320182747 438699 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I may create a cellular automaton < 1320182748 818754 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh god. < 1320182776 67075 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember when elliott tried to create a CA that had relativity despite knowing nothing about either. < 1320182793 518312 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :IT WAS GREAT < 1320182798 672276 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Relativity in a CA? < 1320182803 306793 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would be really strange. < 1320182806 689501 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Awesome, but strange. < 1320182817 690859 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not least because the Lorentz transformation is continuous. < 1320182826 794545 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Didn't that Mark guy already do it. < 1320182827 465178 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So... hmm. < 1320182835 166196 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Wolfram guy? < 1320182838 650753 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover linked me to a thesis. < 1320182847 276623 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I'm pretty sure that not having global time references would fuck up CAs. < 1320182861 388218 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, yeah, by setting v=c at all times so that it doesn't require non-integral transforms. < 1320182861 951935 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, ah hi! tup question < 1320182872 595923 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Heh. < 1320182876 120094 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Si? < 1320182878 935207 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: What did that end up with? < 1320182884 293087 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I wonder if I can make /etc be /usr/etc instead :-) < 1320182897 356750 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, photons moving around at c in 1D. < 1320182910 156267 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Exciting./ < 1320182911 568346 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Only thing barring you ought to be moronically hard-coded paths. < 1320182915 541317 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/\/// < 1320182916 723651 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It simulated diffusion, and was terrible. < 1320182921 313189 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, lets say I have multiple build configurations. Like different compilers, different options or whatever. Any way to handle that with one source tree in tup? Preferably a single tup upd to update all of them < 1320182924 540780 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: It's probbly not a good idea, anyway. < 1320182935 534716 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The magnetisation and entropy ones were good, though. < 1320182937 875316 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: BTW, Fedora are working on unifying /bin, /sbin, /usr/bin and /usr/sbin into /usr/bin. < 1320182940 6407 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Nothing easy *at present*. < 1320182949 86534 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, ah okay. So there are plans? < 1320182954 700387 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Variants. < 1320182959 851511 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, hm? < 1320182960 876126 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the next planned big feature. < 1320182963 364049 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1320182963 510853 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: So close, and yet so far. < 1320182964 982816 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1320182965 427842 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also allows debug builds. < 1320182971 164364 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes < 1320182978 450473 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :debug vs optimised would be nice indeed < 1320182982 64106 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Shrug, I think it's decent enough, because /usr contains stuff that can be shared. < 1320182986 291713 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Stuff like /etc and /var can't be. < 1320182992 551632 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :So if you unify those, /usr gains actual semantics. < 1320183022 573356 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still feel like it'd be better to lose /usr. But whatever. < 1320183039 314114 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, they still need /bin/sh. Because so many things would break without it. Anyway I thing that binfmt_misc might never even get stuff that starts with #! < 1320183043 774530 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :not certain about that < 1320183061 25632 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: /bin/ will probably be a symlink to /usr/bin < 1320183064 763008 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1320183065 977519 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :that works < 1320183079 984302 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: (a) They're doing symlinks, but I don't think there'd be as much breakage as you expect. < 1320183090 611841 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: (b) ISTR testing it and it worked. < 1320183109 479091 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: It's also nice in that with that unification, /usr can be mounted read-only. < 1320183110 729041 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: binfmt_misc goes before #!, IIRC. < 1320183118 583087 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Whereas things like /var can't. < 1320183118 797553 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, ah good < 1320183130 125226 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, it does have some semantics as a whole. *shrug* < 1320183136 890445 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Having both /bin and /usr/bin is criminally stupid, though. < 1320183136 944260 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Oh, so they're giving /usr actual semantics? < 1320183147 242147 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :For a 6-state automaton using the Von Neumann neighbourhood, this is surprisingly tedious < 1320183148 845656 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Things that can be shared and needn't be written to in normal operation"? < 1320183156 824439 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Basically, "subset of distribution". < 1320183161 109760 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Unix system resources" and all that. < 1320183170 447305 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that's at least not devoid of a point. < 1320183171 859766 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, it makes sense for boot stuff, when /usr is separate. I know that is not so popular these days < 1320183178 268238 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Nope < 1320183185 392898 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: That doesn't work nowadays < 1320183188 788689 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well there is initramfs to mount /usr I guess < 1320183193 591512 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because of udev, primarily < 1320183197 298912 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, it still works on arch. barely. < 1320183209 522460 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arch probably takes extra effort to make it work. < 1320183210 394378 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Except that the failures it causes are mostly silent < 1320183213 686240 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you can't really know at all :-) < 1320183221 304222 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yeah, we have initramfs so it's basically pointless nowadays. < 1320183229 309257 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, it causes about 4 udev rules to fail, and no visible side effects from them < 1320183240 555253 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :How reassuring! < 1320183243 820348 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, anyway it is trivial to solve this from initramfs. Instead of mounting just /, mount / and /usr < 1320183250 31992 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1320183252 42671 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :that provides backward compat < 1320183252 176209 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, obviously. < 1320183312 186832 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I'm going to write my own initramfs to do this. Should be trivial, throw in busybox, a few helper tools for raid, lvm and mounting as required, then write /init to mount / and /usr < 1320183324 450359 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, it mostly works without initramfs for me currently < 1320183343 46034 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :so unless having an initramfs disable some sort of fallback code in the kernel, it should be trivial < 1320183345 244247 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Hmm. Is Fedora also knocking out /lib? < 1320183359 576735 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would assume so < 1320183361 659918 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(modulo ld.so?) < 1320183363 534941 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: That isn't in the specific plan I read, but they might be. < 1320183372 28399 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is going to break a lot < 1320183377 526291 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Not really. < 1320183381 605784 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: With a symlink? < 1320183387 852459 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well okay, that solves it < 1320183388 216037 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even without, it wouldn't break much if you kept ld.so. < 1320183393 253611 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: The only hard-coded library path, in general, is ld.so. < 1320183394 961973 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note that Nix doesn't even have /lib/ld.so. < 1320183398 868792 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's why they have elfpatch :P < 1320183411 713855 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, so a binary from a different system won't even run on nixos? < 1320183417 466296 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's why they have elfpatch :P < 1320183419 620992 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1320183425 958755 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :will have to check that out < 1320183433 338724 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It safely rewrites the dynamic linker and RPATH. < 1320183436 860783 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of an ELF. < 1320183466 97742 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott iirc it is quite hard to add RPATH unless there already is one there < 1320183476 445307 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm NOT going to switch unless nwn and so on work flawlessly < 1320183489 642830 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: It handles growing the ELF; and nobody cares what you switch to. < 1320183495 507490 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, chroots exist. < 1320183539 818848 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel cfunge is ready to go autoconf (this will require replacing a lot of custom cmake code, like checking for warning flags and what not)+tup once variants are supported < 1320183563 934834 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :cfunge hasn't even seen a release for three years, to my knowledge. < 1320183581 215841 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, nor has tup. It is fetch from vcs now < 1320183630 345030 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meanwhile, I'm thinking about using a zipper for shiro's fungespace. < 1320183672 50225 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, hm interesting < 1320183685 432247 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, which package on nixos is elfpatch in < 1320183698 603032 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://nixos.org/patchelf.html < 1320183706 795188 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I would presume "patchelf". < 1320183714 3370 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah you said elfpatch above < 1320183715 814141 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :not patchelf < 1320183727 665303 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a tool where you can give it some examples of what a cellular automaton does and it tries to figure it out? < 1320183811 957268 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1320183834 23224 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: a brain < 1320183851 283107 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com PART :#esoteric < 1320183873 823955 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, where can I get one? < 1320183894 103402 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Try having kids. < 1320183922 774516 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Asexual, remember < 1320183939 79316 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll have to adopt < 1320183976 829633 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes that was the: joke. < 1320183985 417088 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where did PH go. < 1320183992 260619 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I presume bed < 1320184003 721276 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've found a bit where I don't know what would happen... < 1320184039 47555 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1320184170 403948 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, my solution makes the initial state "X" in a field of " " stable. < 1320184177 564526 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ends up in a four-tick cycle < 1320184243 742037 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, this cellular automaton is pretty lame < 1320184249 813855 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No spaceships, no guns < 1320184265 368740 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No steamboats < 1320184318 585949 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't know that. < 1320184386 710764 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No character makes more life than is needed to create it < 1320184419 925517 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are cases where life can be destroyed < 1320184434 431473 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fair enough < 1320184446 708618 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, I think I /can/ know that < 1320184459 84604 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The spaceship one is just a conjecture < 1320184461 652457 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you just tried a few configurations and decided that :P < 1320184544 196443 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is Conway's game of life Turing Complete when on a hyperbolic plane? < 1320184759 345553 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going for "Probably" < 1320185338 755576 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1320185342 128212 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com PART :#esoteric < 1320185517 458625 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Wait have I even told you about the best part of my Kitten design YOU ARE SO MISSING OUT < 1320185681 729994 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I may have a finite Morphy number < 1320185987 243406 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1320185998 52330 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com PART :#esoteric < 1320186000 203162 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just did a game of Q20, trying for "Befunge" < 1320186003 57878 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It got "Email" < 1320186164 964926 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Got Chess set in 18 questions < 1320186216 999289 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd, Q20? < 1320186222 196542 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :20q.net < 1320186294 82021 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1320186307 293180 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I don't think so. < 1320186326 809148 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: The package manager is the service manager. < 1320186331 968589 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, right. < 1320186342 334688 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait did I tell you that. < 1320186346 573530 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I so don't remember telling you that. < 1320186348 941423 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because it is the best idea. < 1320186353 845185 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You talked about it rather a lot. < 1320186357 831631 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :DAMN < 1320186360 268289 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I gotta get something new < 1320186370 598877 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did I mention I was considering making the package manager teh build system too??? < 1320186381 646029 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's Kitten? < 1320186384 353477 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, but it seems only natural if you're going to do things right. < 1320186399 864082 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: http://www.google.co.uk/search?gcx=w&q=kitten&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&biw=1366&bih=675&sei=%208XGwTujlBMfHsgbSzOh_ < 1320186474 99846 :evincar!~evincar@daffa.student.rit.edu QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 7.0.1/20110928134238] < 1320186577 846721 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kitten would get on with friendship mouse, methinks < 1320186909 79505 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@inportb/loli/cirno-chan NICK :Lymia < 1320186909 508313 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I may have a lower than average Morphy number < 1320186999 935368 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lymia... sounds oddly familiar < 1320187050 322060 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Morphy number < 1320187068 565225 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd, Lymia was what she was called originally. < 1320187072 493236 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oooh < 1320187083 20762 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :A Morphy number is a bit like a Bacon number, but with Chess < 1320187087 213244 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1320187109 7378 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's to someone who lived in the 1800's < 1320187119 426627 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So people generally have bigger Morphy numbers < 1320187149 51649 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :What they should do with these is, whenever 0 dies, everyone's number decreases by one. < 1320187159 275240 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That'd be more sustainable :p < 1320187188 958354 :ais523\unfoog!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I played an IM at chess once < 1320187192 818787 :ais523\unfoog!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I lost really badly, ofc < 1320187221 668947 :ais523\unfoog!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it probably means I have a reasonable Morphy number < 1320187229 10315 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But my uncle taught someone how to play chess, who ended up being really good < 1320187231 795778 :ais523\unfoog!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as IMs and GMs have a tendency to all play each other < 1320187260 940452 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think he ended up being Australia's second Grand Master or something < 1320187291 640112 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, maybe in terms of chess, I have a low ais523 number < 1320187469 997914 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how high my cpressey number is < 1320187488 716183 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :In terms of esolangs collaborated on < 1320187510 348994 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Infinity. < 1320187519 584392 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Have you collaborated with anyone?) < 1320187532 526666 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sort of not really zzo38 < 1320187551 543967 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think one can be said to collaborate with zzo. < 1320187590 605600 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There needs to be more esoteric collaborations < 1320187703 948571 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan helped a lot with Numberwang < 1320187892 529203 :centrinia!~exc@adsl-184-36-91-18.asm.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1320187912 309931 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1320187932 481441 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION → sleep < 1320187933 597063 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1320188037 425210 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello centrinia < 1320188047 840278 :centrinia!~exc@adsl-184-36-91-18.asm.bellsouth.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello Ngevd. < 1320188066 830625 :ais523\unfoog!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1320188068 229761 :ais523\unfoog!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`welcome < 1320188070 436290 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: welcome: not found < 1320188076 618944 :ais523\unfoog!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there, that's a great welcome < 1320188078 538738 :ais523\unfoog!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`?welcome < 1320188080 964595 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ?welcome: not found < 1320188097 626566 :ais523\unfoog!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? welcome < 1320188100 268736 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page < 1320188109 109722 :centrinia!~exc@adsl-184-36-91-18.asm.bellsouth.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanks. :) < 1320188121 500240 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's just do that to centrinia every time they come in < 1320188128 8267 :ais523\unfoog!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :typos included? < 1320188130 612483 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes! < 1320188134 507181 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's becoming tradition < 1320188147 324828 :ais523\unfoog!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how many times has it happened? < 1320188149 953159 :ais523\unfoog!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :more than 1? < 1320188161 13034 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, i think i messed it up yesterday too < 1320188168 837307 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :might be wrong < 1320188200 46741 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :With a very loose definition of "collaborated", I have a Pressey number of 3, I think < 1320188255 1234 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I collaborated with rjan Johansen on Numberwang < 1320188274 494663 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :rjan Johansen collaborated with Ben Olmstead on Malbolge Unshackled < 1320188283 463829 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :FSVO collaboration < 1320188294 577943 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: you poor man < 1320188315 243942 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ben Olmstead collaborated with Chris Pressey on Wierd < 1320188324 400776 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, only the last of those really counts < 1320188443 943608 :ais523\unfoog!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I don't really have many esolang collaborations, I'm more of a solo esolanger < 1320188449 569225 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, "FSVO"? < 1320188453 748302 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh yes < 1320188490 267202 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : With a very loose definition of "collaborated" < 1320188560 866562 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i forgot to mention, my erds number is now 4 < 1320188583 802240 :ais523\unfoog!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: wow! do you know the chain? < 1320188606 481236 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :me, jarkko kari, christopher morre, leonard j schulman, erds < 1320188612 720768 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :*moore < 1320188626 870774 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-246.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1320188646 734367 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-48.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1320188649 341028 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i actually solved some of moore's open problems at some point so maybe he'd be interested in collaborating < 1320188665 894661 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :just because i'd have 3- < 1320188667 682139 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :*. < 1320188720 576951 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: hope you get to 0 someday < 1320188749 26529 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you have to exhume erdős' grave, then use alchemical voodoo to merge his spirit and corpse with yours) < 1320188768 574056 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hmm i guess technically i'll have an erds number on 21., it's http://www.springer.com/computer/theoretical+computer+science/book/978-3-642-24896-2 < 1320188769 744754 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"alchemical voodoo"? < 1320188771 595425 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this has only been done three times in history, each time being swiftly followed by the murder of the mathematician involved) < 1320188812 347960 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Ping :-P < 1320188816 439938 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :they don't even mention my name anywhere in there, fuckers < 1320188846 983616 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(BY THE MATHS POLICE!!!!) < 1320188869 868894 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1320188930 878696 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still think there should be more esolang collaborations < 1320188934 613002 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who wants a Pressey number below 5? < 1320188952 978693 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm fine with an oklopol number of 0 < 1320189049 375268 :ais523\unfoog!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have an oklopol number of 1 < 1320189065 292 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :which one are you counting < 1320189070 909218 :ais523\unfoog!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clue (oklopol version) < 1320189076 66588 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes < 1320189082 336111 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :certainly < 1320189118 177940 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but even better, that means i have wolfram number 2 < 1320189158 312997 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: no no no, you mean gamma < 1320189173 711361 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :wolfram alpha is actually just wolfram himself chained to a computer < 1320189187 814407 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523\unfoog: wait, how was that a collaboration? < 1320189189 972984 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :moving the page? :P < 1320189192 496460 :ais523\unfoog!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, the only collaboration with Wolfram /himself/ that I've done is pointing out a bug in his proof for the 2,5, and fixing it < 1320189198 980056 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: pm stuff < 1320189199 248390 :ais523\unfoog!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: we discussed it in PM a lot < 1320189204 853377 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-66-96.opaltelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1320189204 907564 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1320189217 828271 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that must be why it sucked so much before i got to it OH BURRRRRRN < 1320189223 896711 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :thank you all yr. welcome < 1320189225 359337 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric ::DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD < 1320189229 418873 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm here all week < 1320189288 586807 :ais523\unfoog!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Underload is going to be my best esolang ever, isn't it :( < 1320189307 528798 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523\unfoog: most likely. < 1320189312 424796 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523\unfoog: you will spend the rest of your life trying to surpass it. < 1320189329 346816 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :on your deathbed people will offer comfort. no, no, feather "failed prototype version" was very good. < 1320189331 509101 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they lie. < 1320189331 880733 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION resists making a feather joke < 1320189332 925536 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's all lies. < 1320189334 107171 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::'( < 1320189340 198283 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: ...? < 1320189360 439302 :ais523\unfoog!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: I think all the good feather jokes have been done < 1320189360 738797 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: hi Gregor < 1320189381 727305 :ais523\unfoog!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :feather <<= /dev/null < 1320189383 779922 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders if that's a feather joke < 1320189386 423451 :ais523\unfoog!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there, that got rid of it < 1320189392 91772 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Re cunionfs: < 1320189392 167422 :ais523\unfoog!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or would, if I had feather working < 1320189392 398604 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :20:28:27: Gregor: I /think/ I need a way to rewrite the list of union branches while a process runs (i.e. not env-var-based). < 1320189392 452520 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :20:28:46: Gregor: Because when a package is installed, the user's session should see it as part of the hierarchy without a reboot :P < 1320189392 452708 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :20:29:29: Since I have per-user package installations, I think the simplest way is just to let me say, I dunno, CUNION_BRANCHES_FROM_FILE=/some/path, and that's read whenever the list of branches is required. But it would be nice if it only re-read the list of branches when I told it they changed, because reading them every FS operation sounds slooow. < 1320189435 923470 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I had considered ways of communicating changes at runtime. I was thinking about a sysfs-esque pseudofile. < 1320189469 531137 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Right. The problem with having one file per process is that I'd have to write to hundreds of fakefiles /atomically/. < 1320189488 293683 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is impossible :P < 1320189523 389582 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I guess a simple way to do it is to start most processes set to inherit the branches from their parent? < 1320189539 79156 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then I'd just have to rewrite the branch list of their login shell or whatever, which could be done atomically. < 1320189549 217143 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just wondering about ways to do it. < 1320189583 831496 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :My thought was basically just replacing the way the env var works with the pseudofile. If you don't touch it, you inherit it from your parent, otherwise you can change it at any time. < 1320189588 363194 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the UNIX way, after all. < 1320189651 658027 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I thought the inheritance was done by just inheriting the env var at startup time in the current thing. < 1320189651 788125 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking the file would contain either "inherit" or a list of branches, and start at "inherit" unless started in some special way. But yeah, whatever works. < 1320189665 849245 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :As long as I can replace the branches of a process tree atomically :P < 1320189677 87098 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, remember the pseudofile is a PSEUDO-file. It doesn't have file semantics. < 1320189685 490259 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1320189712 172822 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I know aufs does stuff in /sys/fs/aufs/, I think. < 1320189798 975431 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Anyway, yeah, it would be super-great and I'm willing to help out however but I'm probably limited by having no experience with kernel modules at all :P < 1320189885 613509 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Out of curiosity, how would you start a process with a different branch set with that model? Would it be sourced from an env var if present (defaulting to inherit) to start with? < 1320190053 985882 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would say you'd have to fork, then change the file, then exec. < 1320190063 459183 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1320190068 432076 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd like to keep it as simple as possible without making security impossible :P < 1320190094 574871 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, that'd be reasonable. < 1320190177 289604 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION doesn't actually know how much flexibility you have with files in Linux. < 1320190184 214286 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would it just be a case of "changes only take effect on close()"? < 1320190231 41167 :sllide!~jari@ip565eb113.direct-adsl.nl QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1320190251 275159 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, otherwise it would be really difficult to know when you care or not. Or it could be exposed as a character device instead of a block device and be per-line or something. < 1320190311 473482 :ais523\unfoog!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, wow, it's a binary day < 1320190366 3435 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523\unfoog: 2 is not a binary digit and it won't be a binary for 7,989 years. < 1320190371 626395 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :*a binary day < 1320190391 283219 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-246.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Lazy people use 2-digit years. < 1320190392 860804 :ais523\unfoog!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: isn't the century/millennium normally omitted? < 1320190398 966321 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Per-line breaks paths with \n :) < 1320190405 65201 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION would just NUL-separate it. < 1320190405 672186 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-246.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :01-11-11 :) < 1320190411 478849 :ais523\unfoog!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise, binary days aren't likely to happen ever because binary wasn't invented in 1111 and probably won't be in use by 10000 < 1320190426 491179 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :NUL-terminate, rather. < 1320190448 901099 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523\unfoog: weird definition of probably, also of happen < 1320190450 915630 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-246.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523\unfoog: "Probably"? I'd say that the year 10,000 is too far off for us to even say that much. < 1320190459 262155 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Either way, I think enact-on-close makes sense, though I wonder how it interacts with fopen/fclose (probably just fine) < 1320190465 974316 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :we will be using unary < 1320190469 467654 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-246.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd go with "and we can't even make guesses about 10,000" < 1320190472 19496 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Yeah, it seems reasonable. < 1320190489 864026 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I'm just super-paranoid about atomicity wrt inheriting from the parent process, but I guess it'll all work out fine. < 1320190504 209351 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(As opposed to my only moderate paranoia about performance :P) < 1320190523 410012 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: It just has to be atomic w.r.t. exec ... < 1320190544 103243 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: No. Consider mutating a parent process. < 1320190548 665266 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The child process has to inherit those changes. < 1320190771 545171 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Or were you intending inheritance to only inherit from the values present at fork-time? < 1320190881 424083 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uhhhhhhh, only at fork time. < 1320190894 755778 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good lawd, I'm not trying to communicate some whole hideous tree here ... < 1320190906 849245 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was going to have one global master, the per-process. < 1320190910 509202 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm < 1320190913 197163 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was going to have one global master, then per-process. < 1320190968 866370 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: The problem is, like I said, that I need atomic updates... < 1320191010 77153 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: The user's login shell has 10 child processes in a tree; one of them has its own branch list, but the rest are inherited. I need to update the login shell's branch list /and all its inheriting childrens' branch lists/ atomically. < 1320191046 577658 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think your process-tree model is making things needlessly complicated. < 1320191054 92871 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Two ideas: < 1320191114 166152 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :1) You have a global configuration, per-user configuration, and per-process configuration. Per-process configuration is inherited as described, global and per-user are both inherited atomically when the relevant configurations are changed (it doesn't have to be particularly atomic to guarantee these semantics, it just has to invalidate a bunch of caches). < 1320191149 900750 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, what if I had the login shell's union list be /some/other/union < 1320191154 432237 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Had the rest inherit from that < 1320191156 882838 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :2) Per-process configuration, where entries can be paths /or/ some way to specify inheritance. < 1320191156 935657 :ais523\unfoog!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1320191158 646611 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And just modified /some/other/union's branch list < 1320191167 796513 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, that's interesting. < 1320191172 744580 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :3) What you just said :P < 1320191180 863568 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: (2) seems nicer to me than (1), though; it's inherently more flexible :P < 1320191190 981593 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm < 1320191195 196988 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :(3) seems nicer to me than (2), as it fits the model better. < 1320191211 61522 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Actually, (4): Instead of a branch list, /every/ process just has a pointer to a branch list. < 1320191217 397317 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The branch list is an atomically-modifiable pseudofile. < 1320191226 98067 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That gives (3) without duplicating mounts all over the place. < 1320191241 695704 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it doesn't give you inheritance if you also have changes. < 1320191243 643578 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the pointer is inherited, etc. < 1320191250 764739 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Yes it does: you just modify the branch list. < 1320191254 924612 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everything pointing to it gets the updates. < 1320191274 195356 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean this: < 1320191307 161646 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :B is a child of A. B adds /foo to its branch list, but it doesn't want to change A's, so it just makes a new one and sets it to the content of the original plus /foo. Now A changes its branch list, but B can't see the change. < 1320191327 56064 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1320191358 347908 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you have a usecase for that? :P ...oh, I just thought of one: you say: < 1320191367 80881 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ with 'gcc == 3.*' sh < 1320191370 641169 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :[subsh]$ do-thing < 1320191373 278142 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :done < 1320191379 192899 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :[at this point, some other library is updated in the host system] < 1320191385 685643 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :[subsh]$ do-another-thing < 1320191391 783970 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :[...but do-another-thing is still using the old version! this sucks] < 1320191398 923315 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: So yeah, I agree that's desirable. < 1320191402 216705 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I don't think it's such an unimaginable situation, and (2) and (3) both give you that. < 1320191410 918547 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: BUT, B also has to be able to /remove/. < 1320191419 540387 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because the shell from which "with" is run has its own gcc in scope. < 1320191424 647320 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, and I'm not sure how to handle that in any of these semantics. < 1320191434 952561 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the subsh has to have "remove , add ", but what if you upgrade the outside gcc while it's still running? < 1320191453 360891 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bleh ... remove by pattern match? *brain axplote* < 1320191498 682547 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Hideous :P < 1320191510 796660 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: What I /really/ need is to have my package manager calculate the branch lists :P < 1320191529 623343 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: But, ehh... OK, how about this: Every process has an explicit, mutable, no-inheritance list of branches. < 1320191544 484177 :tiffany!~kawaii@fl-76-3-18-195.dhcp.embarqhsd.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1320191547 572803 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: /But/, instead of updating on close(), you "queue up" PIDs to update the branch lists of in another file, then close that. < 1320191550 992908 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The updates happen atomically. < 1320191564 982398 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That way, I can just recalculate the branches for all the constraints and the like, and update 'em atomically. < 1320191827 531592 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: (I'm aware this is kind of ugly :P) < 1320191842 462378 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Oh, wait, it can be ten times simpler than that... just have a file where you open, write a pid, write a list of branches, repeat, and it commits on close(). < 1320191943 230174 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :That makes inheritance with changes possible, but massively difficult ... < 1320191962 814863 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: No? The whole point is that an external package manager is going to be calculating which directories to add. < 1320191972 841340 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: So if you do "with 'gcc == 3.*' ...", it'll store that that process wants gcc == 3.*. < 1320191986 949928 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whenever the global package DB is updated, it just calculates packages + constraint --> branches again and writes 'em all out. < 1320191993 711290 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It already has to do that logic in the first place.