< 1320624258 972433 :BlueProtoman!~BlueProto@68-244-49-244.pools.spcsdns.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1320624886 187408 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1320625187 234089 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Change the game to low score. * In boss levels, you have to catch the apples/bombs/whatever to throw at them. Now, when you catch the object, you earn points. Which means, it is a good idea not to miss! (Becuase of low score game! It doesn't work at all with high score game) < 1320625234 437004 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is: gopher://zzo38computer.cjb.net:70/0phlog*c_game.game-design-i < 1320625414 163879 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1320625517 545204 :BlueProtoman!~BlueProto@107.54.28.30 JOIN :#esoteric < 1320625591 226821 :BlueProtoman!~BlueProto@107.54.28.30 PRIVMSG #esoteric :test < 1320625610 130304 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1320625631 390483 :BlueProtoman!~BlueProto@107.54.28.30 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi. < 1320625634 197430 :BlueProtoman!~BlueProto@107.54.28.30 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can anyone here help me with my Brainfuck interpreter? I've got most of it down except for loops, which are not so much looped as they are ran once. http://codepad.org/eznPVPyy < 1320625805 316345 :tiffany!~kawaii@fl-76-3-17-148.dhcp.embarqhsd.net QUIT :Quit: nyu~ < 1320625977 427043 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :not exactly sure what you're doing, but it looks like instead of jumping back to the position in the file where you were, you're setting the character value to the character at that position, and then overwriting it anyway < 1320625994 591936 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd suggest not interpreting as you read the file, for one < 1320626005 280884 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :also not using c++, but that's even further beside the point < 1320626122 241536 :BlueProtoman!~BlueProto@107.54.28.30 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm...let me look into that. < 1320626133 66535 :BlueProtoman!~BlueProto@107.54.28.30 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, this interpreter is meant to be a learning exercise for me. < 1320626147 431059 :BlueProtoman!~BlueProto@107.54.28.30 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you suggest not interpreting as I read the file, then what should I do instead? < 1320626183 77191 :BlueProtoman!~BlueProto@107.54.28.30 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Answer quickly, I'm at my bus stop.] < 1320626188 674224 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could parse it in some way. the easiest thing to do would be to store the contents in an array or something. < 1320626200 408370 :BlueProtoman!~BlueProto@107.54.28.30 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like a string? < 1320626201 228443 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :or you could do some more structured thing < 1320626206 34195 :BlueProtoman!~BlueProto@107.54.28.30 PRIVMSG #esoteric :How? < 1320626219 863008 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :structures for loops etc. < 1320626224 526294 :BlueProtoman!~BlueProto@107.54.28.30 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know how to use stringstream, so putting the program in a string would be easy... < 1320626232 778521 :BlueProtoman!~BlueProto@107.54.28.30 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Structures for loops. Don't follow, sorry < 1320626235 994240 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhhhhh < 1320626249 644191 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you know what an abstract syntax tree is? it would be good if you could parse to one of those < 1320626251 906789 :BlueProtoman!~BlueProto@107.54.28.30 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm fairly new to C++) < 1320626254 465884 :BlueProtoman!~BlueProto@107.54.28.30 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, sorry. < 1320626261 468454 :BlueProtoman!~BlueProto@107.54.28.30 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gotta go! < 1320626266 439878 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :this isn't a c++ matter; it's a programming language implementation matter < 1320626267 849674 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, bye < 1320626302 980742 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're still around, I'd suggest learning some compiler theory or whatever it's called < 1320626315 996899 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could use your brainfuck interpreter as an exercise < 1320626379 252672 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy, doubtful he know what an AST is. I said "tree" before and that lost him.- < 1320626381 639247 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/-// < 1320626383 693692 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :so eh... < 1320626395 568647 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1320626442 998113 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well then learning some data structures or whatever first would also be a good idea. if he's new enough we might be able to drag him to a better language too?? who knows. is anyone here experienced with this < 1320626462 110233 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suck at pedagogics < 1320626467 592529 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway I need to sleep < 1320626469 352353 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :night → < 1320626518 138975 :BlueProtoman!~BlueProto@107.54.28.30 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1320626907 221230 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :data structures are useful for learning how to structure data I've found. < 1320626944 734238 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: wait, AST for a brainfuck program? < 1320626946 169750 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh...... < 1320626950 366374 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: yes!!!! < 1320626950 551068 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that's called a linked list. < 1320626956 769413 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhhh < 1320626959 38229 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you sure < 1320626963 808201 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :because < 1320626965 400684 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I guess for the loops actually... < 1320626968 49084 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1320626968 159405 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would not be a bad idea. < 1320626973 5641 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's for the looops < 1320626979 300783 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I would just use a stack. which is... equivalent < 1320626981 24878 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, okay. < 1320626995 900427 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :pfft, stacks are for uncool people < 1320627003 521375 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :stacks are the best data structure. < 1320627110 245961 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :another good way to do things is compile the brainfuck to C (really easy) and JIT it up (yes!!!) < 1320627191 570713 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :really easy because you don't have to worry about structure; the C parsing handles all of that < 1320627224 946962 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :serialize the AST as JSON and offload it to a brainfuck server that converts the JSON to a C# structure which is then used to JIT to Python that outputs Perl which is then compressed and sent back to the client. < 1320627271 866803 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :good but that requires getting an ast < 1320627283 242897 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :for brainfuck, I mean < 1320627290 514946 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :assumign that's what you meant < 1320627539 813053 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1320627570 385336 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and the server uses ASP.NET to generate the XHTML response < 1320627574 437423 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is < 1320627589 319403 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :a single script tag whose javascript outputs the Perl < 1320627982 776178 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake NICK :Alissy < 1320627996 295944 :Alissy!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake NICK :Alissy_ < 1320628023 205579 :Alissy_!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake NICK :Kallisti < 1320628026 835989 :Kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake NICK :CakeProphet < 1320629357 636805 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-13.elisa.ee QUIT :Quit: fried brain, anyone? < 1320630838 164940 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1320632101 120589 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I made a Prelude.Golf module for Haskell. < 1320632172 848021 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :It includes many instances which do not follow the laws at all. < 1320632262 101629 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also want to include a regular expression parser in instance IsString (String -> [String]) < 1320632426 449479 :BlueProtoman!~BlueProto@ool-457b5c3a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1320632483 875850 :BlueProtoman!~BlueProto@ool-457b5c3a.dyn.optonline.net PART :#esoteric < 1320632505 929111 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually I meant instance IsString (String -> [[String]]) < 1320632799 198503 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I think this is a beautiful addition to the language. < 1320632849 764061 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: It is designed for use with code golf. But a regular expression parser would still be a good idea in general, I think. < 1320634842 47138 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott (not online; or anyone else who remembers): What was that Cygwin installer that doesn't suck like the Cygwin setup.exe? < 1320635756 829314 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-221-94.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't recall, but I can guess it's called tar. < 1320635923 44732 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@inportb/loli/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :@src IsString < 1320635923 281017 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Source not found. My pet ferret can type better than you! < 1320638120 409727 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Madoka-Kaname: class IsString t where { fromString :: String -> t; } < 1320638129 628247 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is used with OverloadedStrings extension < 1320638615 327443 :MDude!~fyrc@c-174-55-44-190.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1320640279 721460 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1320640398 189490 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1320642525 226539 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1320643423 890193 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1320645817 230983 :MDude!~fyrc@c-174-55-44-190.hsd1.pa.comcast.net NICK :MSleep < 1320646271 512149 :Darth_Cliche!~Darth_Cli@c-67-176-12-54.hsd1.co.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: You are now graced with my absence. < 1320646471 841540 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Too bad, Wikipedia does not have article about "Yomi (card game)" < 1320646527 678531 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :EBook readers are not at all about "green". Nor are they about convenience. < 1320646878 950915 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-221-94.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ebook readers may have some of those properties. But, to be sure, the primary draw for publishers is taking away niceties that real books have, like actual ownership. < 1320647006 932054 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the future, authors will be able to kill off characters they didnt like long after the book was published < 1320647012 522163 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa < 1320647030 384500 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :people might actually pay more for a book that constantly changes... < 1320647051 659792 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-221-94.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :George Lucas is a pioneer in the field. < 1320647106 158192 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :true. like that time he edited dinosaur pictures into all my masturbation memories. all my special memories are special editions! < 1320647162 147280 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :on a related note, three new smbcs tonight < 1320647240 327828 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :For more notes about ebook readers not about "green", these are comments some people have posted about it: "tax on books, amazon censorship" "Why would I want 600 books to read during a week's holiday, a glorified calculator to lug around, a power supply, a continental adaptor and an air of superiority, when I can select one piddlin' book to pack for my ultimate "travel light" experience" < 1320647310 953588 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-221-94.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Three*? < 1320647350 465037 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :paper books are better for the environment. you dont have to keep putting energy in them and they are completely biodegradable < 1320647532 333976 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: Yes, that too. < 1320647832 907485 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I still don't like to waste paper; I avoid wasting paper by reusing the paper that someone has thrown into the recycling for writing a note by hand, reducing the margins/font size when printing by computer, using double-sided, etc < 1320647877 846461 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1320647952 908299 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even reducing margins or font sizes a little bit can reduce the number of pages of a book. < 1320648734 46541 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :And a traditional point is slightly smaller than a DTP point (in TeX, DTP points are called "big points"). < 1320650968 427290 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-13.elisa.ee JOIN :#esoteric < 1320652025 44408 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1320652140 346259 :CakeProphet!~eris@h104.33.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1320652140 811517 :CakeProphet!~eris@h104.33.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net QUIT :Changing host < 1320652140 863704 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake JOIN :#esoteric < 1320656716 395549 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1320657959 804040 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I invented a chess variant called "Three Universes Chess" where you need three colors of ink to write the move notations. < 1320658422 971152 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :My name (Black) comes near first of alphabetical order; and that is actually the reason why my father did that!! < 1320658426 905730 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1320659716 704940 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1320659955 755535 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1320660537 572608 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-13.elisa.ee QUIT :Quit: i hear you < 1320660805 702719 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: hello < 1320661401 739407 :ais523_!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1320661514 68025 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Disconnected by services < 1320661515 293862 :ais523_!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 NICK :ais523 < 1320661562 188230 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1320661587 407917 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1320662470 754274 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :@let morse_table=M.fromList[('a',".-"),('b',"-..."),('c',"-.-."),('d',"-.."),('e',"."),('f',"..-."),('g',"--."),('h',"...."),('i',".."),('j',".---"),('k',"-.-"),('l',".-.."),('m',"--"),('n',"-."),('o',"---"),('p',".--."),('q',"--.-"),('r',".-."),('s',"..."),('t',"-"),('u',"..-"),('v',"...-"),('w',".--"),('x',"-..-"),('y',"-.--"),('z',"--..")] < 1320662471 732160 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Defined. < 1320662501 261355 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :@let morse = unwords . concatMap (maybeToList.(`M.lookup` m).toLower) < 1320662501 847842 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : :8:53: < 1320662502 80049 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Couldn't match expected type `M.Map k String' < 1320662502 132580 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : ... < 1320662515 965090 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :@let morse = unwords . concatMap (maybeToList.(`M.lookup` morse_table).toLower) < 1320662516 787797 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Defined. < 1320662525 930255 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :> morse "Hello, World!" < 1320662527 294934 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : ".... . .-.. .-.. --- .-- --- .-. .-.. -.." < 1320662618 473847 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've seen people "transliterate" morse by using / for the (longer) interword gaps. < 1320662705 468346 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(So you could consider having a (' ', "/") in there.) < 1320662806 720073 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think space conveys spaces effectively. >_> < 1320662932 991829 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you're not differentiating between the gaps between letters and gaps between words there. < 1320662941 47597 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which have a different length. < 1320663065 825689 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :From ".... . .-.. .-.. --- .-- --- .-. .-.. -.." it's impossible to say whether you were saying "Hello, World!" or "Hell, ow... or ld?" < 1320663209 873381 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It's a three-unit -- dash-length -- gap between letters, but a seven-unit gap between words.) < 1320663420 673756 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1320663888 160985 :ecntrk!cb6ef616@gateway/web/freenode/ip.203.110.246.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1320663890 301202 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey QUIT :Quit: The Other Game < 1320664327 522807 :ecntrk!cb6ef616@gateway/web/freenode/ip.203.110.246.22 QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1320664784 134622 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1320665639 705502 :Zuu!~zuu@unaffiliated/zuu QUIT :*.net *.split < 1320665641 68467 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1320665642 353646 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi QUIT :*.net *.split < 1320665644 219623 :EgoBot!foobar@codu.org QUIT :*.net *.split < 1320665644 272608 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1320665645 220656 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JOIN :#esoteric < 1320667073 365094 :ais523_!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1320667084 600498 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Disconnected by services < 1320667085 699194 :ais523_!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 NICK :ais523 < 1320667737 308323 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1320667826 647071 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1320668921 394808 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1320669061 221122 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1320669235 556942 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1320669501 822749 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1320669529 915291 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-13.elisa.ee JOIN :#esoteric < 1320669976 156181 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1320670716 353454 :sllide!~jari@ip565eb113.direct-adsl.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 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:boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1320675304 556906 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1320675312 996148 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1320675391 609781 :Nisstyre!~yours@infocalypse-net.info JOIN :#esoteric < 1320675493 401421 :variable!root@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1320675493 454062 :mycroftiv!~ircguy@h69-128-47-242.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1320675496 28865 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1320675590 989530 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1320675627 322257 :derrik_!~xix@194.150.65.75 QUIT :Quit: Reconnecting… < 1320675644 937518 :derrik!~xix@194.150.65.75 JOIN :#esoteric < 1320676034 872243 :pumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1320676272 625782 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1320677891 620509 :yorick!~yorick@unaffiliated/yorick QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1320677913 529532 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1320677935 637937 :yorick!~yorick@unaffiliated/yorick JOIN :#esoteric < 1320678735 593469 :pumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1320678770 562598 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1320678969 472324 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote No you can't fight crime in Glasgow. It's like trying to get rid of the space-time continuum. < 1320678975 504795 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :710) No you can't fight crime in Glasgow. It's like trying to get rid of the space-time continuum. < 1320679094 220983 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:06:17: arch has two major issues for me: multilib support is crappy. No split debug info. Still. There is work being done on the latter though. < 1320679109 715866 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't Arch's libs include the debug info < 1320679145 961370 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:06:48: What's wrong with the multilib support < 1320679146 193110 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: It's an ugly special-case hack solution and only covers a small percentage of all the library packages in the repo? < 1320679192 277524 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:11:32: Do any of the BayHac2011 Haskell programs exist? < 1320679196 644657 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, they're all fake < 1320679223 662426 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:43:28: hm based on http://www.etalabs.net/compare_libcs.html it still looks like eglibc is a better bet for most desktop systems. It is only worse than musl in a few cases, but has so much better support for lots of features. < 1320679244 324053 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell Vorpal Nobody uses any of the stuff musl doesn't have except for C++ crap < 1320679244 605268 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1320679310 746364 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell Vorpal Once it works with C++ and has configurable locale support it'll work with the vast majority of programs (it has locale support, just not configurable locales yet) < 1320679310 865902 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1320679414 454360 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :23:56:38: personally I would parse it into a tree then exeute the tree. < 1320679421 590352 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Preparsing is probably slower for BF < 1320679443 172331 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have to load all the code in first though of course < 1320679509 526291 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :03:00:42: elliott (not online; or anyone else who remembers): What was that Cygwin installer that doesn't suck like the Cygwin setup.exe? < 1320679514 521714 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Don't recall, try `pastelogs < 1320679523 734821 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I suggest using a non-Cygwin solution :P < 1320679720 956214 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thing I just discovered and am worried at: the internals of Sun's implementations for listeners work by using an Object[], which stores, alternately, Class objects representing what type the listeners were supposed to have when they were added (e.g. ActionListener.class), and the listeners themselves < 1320679740 409547 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's just making a mockery of the type system, really < 1320679756 341625 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably, they /should/ have created an class ListenerWithClass, and made an array of those < 1320679808 151302 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1320679817 86130 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: java's typesystem makes a mockery of itself < 1320679822 499322 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: at least ever since generics < 1320679840 118882 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the generics impl isn't blatantly stupid, though < 1320679847 556837 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has many faults, but it's not indefensible < 1320679878 323001 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: "what are covariance and contravariance" --Java's generics system < 1320679902 846799 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it, umm, sort-of handles those < 1320679906 784146 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, it has syntax to do so < 1320679914 272800 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Collection < 1320679917 77434 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: which is why you can cast a list of cats to a list of animals and then add an element? < 1320679920 22271 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Collection < 1320679931 632324 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :/without/ any unsafe casts? < 1320679936 159338 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it doesn't enforce it across casts < 1320679955 428921 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arguably it should; I don't think it trusts its developers to declare the variances correctly so it ignores them < 1320679966 923074 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: I think it actually /runtime errors/ when you add that element < 1320679968 715693 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but at least it has syntactic support for them! < 1320679979 262747 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no, I'm not talking about anything with ?s < 1320679982 615545 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm talking about a plain List < 1320679991 782785 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can pass it, without casting, to a method expecting List < 1320679998 710624 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that method can, as it should rightfully be able to, add a tortoise to it < 1320680005 554794 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :java's type system is completely broken < 1320680142 4989 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1320680367 150291 :aloril!~aloril@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe7ef900-153.dhcp.inet.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1320680544 162941 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it's not as broken as, say, Dart's < 1320680566 359216 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, what's wrong with Dart's, I thought it was basically Java's < 1320680568 827589 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean < 1320680572 544776 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's additionally wrong < 1320680600 564705 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's checked only at runtime < 1320680612 987973 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: that's an implementation detail < 1320680624 278492 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it isn't, it's detectable from within code < 1320680638 198531 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. you can pass objects round as variants a bunch, and then eventually use them < 1320680649 293350 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: only if that's defined behaviour < 1320680649 754297 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a way that's unsafe a small percentage of the time based on an RNG < 1320680657 587717 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :show me where the language is defined to be runtime-checked? < 1320680661 43051 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it is; Dart's typing is explicitly optional < 1320680668 111764 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, alright then < 1320680717 609256 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's your opinion on instanceof (the operator)? < 1320680729 578605 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :breaks parametricity < 1320680746 626150 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly an unhelpful statement as iirc you didn't know what that was last time i mentioned it :P < 1320680818 611573 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: so, "I don't like it" < 1320680823 296278 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not very good with words that are the same as other words except for the endings < 1320680835 498820 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to figure out if it's inherently broken, and suspect it is, but am unsure why < 1320680919 998251 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :meanwhile, I'm busy pondering whether I should try to translate Anarchy to OCaml more or less directly, or try to be cleverer < 1320680932 70769 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the thing about Anarchy is that it isn't pure, but doesn't seem fully impure either < 1320680938 390322 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm having trouble trying to work out what exactly it is < 1320680939 212637 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: it's broken because < 1320680943 149056 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :id :: a -> a < 1320680969 952198 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't necessarily _|_, the identity function, or const _|_, or `seq` _|_ < 1320680976 982834 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(bottoms sure do mess with a language) < 1320681004 90710 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but seriously though, it completely breaks parametricity, and that's all you need to know to realise it's completely broken < 1320681018 204952 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, that reminds me of how awkward it is to write an infinite loop in Anarchy < 1320681025 303121 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can only do it by creating a data structure while you're iterating over it, in such a way that the iteration never finishes < 1320681085 782332 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, wait < 1320681090 455658 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`seq` _|_ is just const _|_ < 1320681091 71213 :aloril!~aloril@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe7ef900-153.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1320681092 620758 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: seq`: not found < 1320681093 354157 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that simplifies things < 1320681110 756446 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, that probably means that Anarchy always terminates on a real computer, as it'd run out of memory if an infinite loop ran long enough < 1320681133 597588 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: not if you have GC < 1320681141 709940 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can iterate through [0..] in constant space < 1320681156 192408 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right; but the structure so far, AFAICT, would always be referenced < 1320681173 145078 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, although a replacement of _ would probably be optimized out to not remember the original < 1320681230 544921 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that is, if I write what would be "a = f(List.tl (a@[1]))" in OCaml, the compiler should be sensible enough to discard the old value of a meanwhile) < 1320681252 436512 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :mutable references generally don't reference values they're not currently set to < 1320681275 608841 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, this isn't a :=, just an = < 1320681294 338886 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's inventing a new variable called a, driving the old one out of scope in the process < 1320681316 492747 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: oh, let as opposed to letrec + shadowing < 1320681329 504963 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty much < 1320681332 280942 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me be the first to say, ew < 1320681337 500141 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :letrec gets involved eventually, which is where the loop comes from < 1320681354 411205 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you're ew-ing at the wrong thing, there < 1320681359 565945 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as I was trying to come up with an analogy < 1320681362 454739 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: but I bet you couldn't letrec a = f(List.tl (a@[1])) :-) < 1320681386 375340 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: don't you mean letrec f a = f(List.tl (a@[1]))? < 1320681396 535776 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, I'm trying to figure out what that does mentally atm < 1320681403 392992 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's just an infinite loop < 1320681406 636485 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: nope, I don't < 1320681410 195472 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the point :) < 1320681421 948034 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1320681429 456535 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I see < 1320681456 229774 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :incidentally, is it usual to write mutual recursions in OCaml that span many pages? < 1320681471 249572 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it feels a bit weird having to go and...and...and in order to keep the mutual recursion going < 1320681479 579490 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: actually, I'm not sure my letrec a would work, assuming @[n] is an array access operator < 1320681488 537460 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@ is list append < 1320681490 233492 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like ++ in Haskell < 1320681490 709054 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :arrays are generally not lazy in their structure... < 1320681494 645510 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: oh, that'd work fine then < 1320681503 568194 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :array access is .(n) < 1320681506 52687 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a language which supported it, I mean < 1320681573 2163 :pumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1320681573 939094 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> :t \a f -> f(tail ((a+f)++[1])) < 1320681574 682328 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : : parse error on input `:' < 1320681577 621429 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t \a f -> f(tail ((a+f)++[1])) < 1320681578 484786 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Couldn't match expected type `[t1] -> t' < 1320681578 602990 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : against inferred type `[t1]' < 1320681578 727155 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : In the expression: f (tail ((a + f) ++ [1])) < 1320681588 225203 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t \a f -> f(tail ((a f)++[1])) < 1320681589 114462 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall t t1. (Num t) => (([t] -> t1) -> [t]) -> ([t] -> t1) -> t1 < 1320681592 829784 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what I meant < 1320681605 829798 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not convinced it's a /useful/ expression, though ;) < 1320681616 162460 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's definitely wrong < 1320681617 656338 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a f)? < 1320681630 598852 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t let a = f (tail (a ++ [1])) in a < 1320681631 448557 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall t. (SimpleReflect.FromExpr [t], Num t) => [t] < 1320681635 874672 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t let a = ?f (tail (a ++ [1])) in a < 1320681636 867096 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall t. (Num t, ?f::[t] -> [t]) => [t] < 1320681649 12580 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1320681660 310281 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let f = (0:); a = f (tail (a ++ [1])) in a < 1320681663 998979 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : mueval-core: Time limit exceeded < 1320681669 749724 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1320681676 704917 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1320681683 284983 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let f xs = 0 : 2 : xs; a = f (tail (a ++ [1])) in a < 1320681684 785630 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : [0,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,... < 1320681688 557961 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: useful! < 1320681721 639178 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I was parametrizing a on f < 1320681725 404275 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I didn't know what f was < 1320681739 224903 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and, hmm, is there any way to make the 1 come up at all? < 1320681744 11072 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: it was definitely wrong, sorry < 1320681749 204676 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a f) was completely wrong < 1320681754 983909 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :a doesn't even end up a list there < 1320681759 756798 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: but (a f) does < 1320681762 703469 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was defining (a f) < 1320681767 623241 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :no you weren't < 1320681767 860842 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a < 1320681772 782125 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to be what I called a earlier < 1320681775 725637 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1320681778 960358 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should learn to use fix... < 1320681799 38966 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : and, hmm, is there any way to make the 1 come up at all? < 1320681800 124357 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly < 1320681805 53610 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let f xs = 0 : 2 : init xs; a = f (tail (a ++ [1])) in a < 1320681808 817610 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : mueval-core: Time limit exceeded < 1320681817 306090 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let f = const [1]; a = f (tail (a ++ [1])) in a < 1320681818 722047 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : [1] < 1320681819 817881 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: there we go < 1320681825 426334 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not the same [1] < 1320681832 451458 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, the one in the definition of a < 1320681846 838346 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, the trick is to make a a finite list < 1320681864 362985 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is quite hard < 1320681873 254318 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it needs to have a certain number of elements added by f < 1320681879 9428 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and f is fixed < 1320681919 519720 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's Haskell's equivalent of OCaml's "match", and the syntax? < 1320681923 250667 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my Haskell is really rusty < 1320681935 621090 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I know how to do it with a sequence of definitions, but not in a let) < 1320681954 2924 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1320681965 500577 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: let Just x = y < 1320681970 154225 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the equivalent of match is case < 1320681978 140840 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, was your Haskell /ever/ not rusty? :P < 1320681987 218072 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometimes it's rustier than other times < 1320682015 401028 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :s|/ever/ not|ever /not| < 1320682016 411915 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh < 1320682020 416395 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :s|/not|/not/| < 1320682036 302624 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let f xs = case xs of _:_:_ -> [0] : _ -> xs; a = f (tail (a ++ [1])) in a < 1320682037 45490 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : : parse error on input `->' < 1320682051 703509 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let f xs = case xs of _:_:_ = [0] | _ = xs; a = f (tail (a ++ [1])) in a < 1320682052 405489 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : : parse error on input `=' < 1320682063 845086 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, can you fix my syntax? < 1320682065 728576 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it works anyway < 1320682067 844612 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, give me a minute < 1320682083 720267 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I was trying to think of a way to stop people using a piece of software posted on reddit without having to respond to its author/submitter < 1320682088 861585 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I realised that's what downvotes are for! < 1320682106 295987 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let f xs = case xs of _:_:_ -> [0]; _ -> xs; a = f (tail (a ++ [1])) in a < 1320682107 138665 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : : parse error on input `=' < 1320682111 484103 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not certain I've downvoted anything ever < 1320682113 371108 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf? < 1320682125 323914 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: wait, why are you even using case there? < 1320682126 926349 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a weird place for the parse error < 1320682128 149145 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :just use pattern matching < 1320682136 794180 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: giving two different definitions for f? < 1320682138 857791 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let f (_:_:_) = [0]; f _ = xs; a = f (tail (a ++ [1])) in a < 1320682139 679159 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Not in scope: `xs' < 1320682143 912699 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: no, giving two clauses for f < 1320682148 233648 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let f (_:_:_) = [0]; f xs = xs; a = f (tail (a ++ [1])) in a < 1320682149 739567 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let f (_:_:_) = [0]; f xs = xs; a = f (tail (a ++ [1])) in a < 1320682151 948781 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : mueval-core: Time limit exceeded < 1320682153 195440 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know that'll fail < 1320682153 549809 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : mueval-core: Time limit exceeded < 1320682157 634692 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1320682158 355024 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :because f pattern-matches on it before adding anything to it < 1320682295 41451 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah, why does the terminal here need an explicit kill -WINCH $$ in order to wrap properly after resizing it? < 1320682313 312593 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: ssh? < 1320682316 700597 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :or similar? < 1320682653 381260 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :local < 1320682662 38240 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: which terminal? < 1320682677 886357 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :gnome-terminal on Scientific Linux < 1320682699 753059 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not sending bash SIGWINCH properly, for whatever reason < 1320682730 963070 :ais523_!93bcc019@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.25 QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1320682737 564567 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :first question, why are you us- < 1320682739 891671 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1320682811 284600 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I'm not a huge fan of Cygwin, but I must admit it made it super-easy to turn Windows into an SSH-able server that only very slightly has the bitter taste of Windows. < 1320682846 338159 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: The POSIX subsystem is sooo much nicer and has none of the bitter taste of Windows at all, but unfortunately they're dropping support in Windows 8 < 1320682864 745952 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: And admittedly only Gentoo offer a viable distribution for it... but it's really polished :P < 1320682886 704662 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sux2b Gentoo, since it'll vanish in Windows 8 :P < 1320682941 548081 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I'm not sure Windows 8 will get much adoption from the kind of people who use the POSIX subsystem < 1320683025 653429 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1320683035 306478 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: first question, why are you using Scientific Linux :P < 1320683041 198622 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not through choice < 1320683051 507066 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the Linux distro installed in the computer labs where we do marking < 1320683118 632847 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Soooooooo in other words, Cygwin is it. < 1320683120 678479 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Got it. < 1320683135 227842 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I'd just use the Gentoo installer *shrugs* < 1320683144 778756 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: One advantage is that the resulting environment is thousands of times faster than Cygwin :P < 1320683150 158235 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Scientific Linux reminds me of the Scientific People in The Stars My Destination. < 1320683164 508051 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Also for all the things I don't like about Emerge, being worse than Cygwin's installer isn't one of them :P < 1320683226 131496 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :'s hard to argue with that ... and it's a good environment for compiling things w/ MingW? < 1320683233 326584 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and it comes with an SSH server? < 1320683241 186604 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :(That works) < 1320683276 128517 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Well, it can run Windows programs, but there's not as much integration as Cygwin; I'm pretty sure you could get Makefiles working; and I'm pretty sure it does, but you could just install OpenSSH from the repos if not < 1320683287 5354 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://distfiles.gentoo.org/experimental/prefix/x86-interix/current/, FWIW, since it's impossible to find < 1320683289 803244 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The PDF is very helpful < 1320683320 296616 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The installer installs the subsystem etc. for you; it's a pretty big iso, but *shrug* < 1320683324 775996 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, it does SSH < 1320683327 732777 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm < 1320683333 861063 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :3.1 SSH Daemon < 1320683334 101809 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gentoo Prex < 1320683334 154648 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :comes with an SSH daemon, which automatically starts at boot < 1320683334 154832 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :time. If you don't want the SSH daemon to start automatically, remove the les < 1320683334 154943 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :/etc/rc2.d/S32sshd and /etc/rc2.d/K68sshd. < 1320683334 722210 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :To manually start the SSH < 1320683336 341208 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :daemon, run /etc/init.d/sshd start. < 1320683338 606530 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, pro copying < 1320683372 341511 :pumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod NICK :copumpkin < 1320683392 45118 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The tradeoff is pretty much: POSIX subsystem: Actually feels like proper UNIX, ten times faster, toolchain isn't godawful; Cygwin: Bit better integration for running Windows stuff with it, not as large a download < 1320683399 35310 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1320683431 79098 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"In the current Release, an experimental build of XFCE4 is included with the < 1320683431 314738 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :DVD image." < 1320683436 183359 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I guess that explains why it's 3 gigs :P < 1320683442 925138 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :lolwut < 1320683470 518700 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I really need "integration for running Windows stuff with it", I really just use the environment as a shell for building things with MingW. < 1320683487 689114 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I didn't say it can't run Windows stuff. < 1320683492 945026 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just saying there's no cygpath or anything. < 1320683541 611455 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION starts the download. < 1320683546 141000 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Speed is important :P < 1320683546 508291 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: You could install a MinGW cross-compiler from inside it :P ... but seriously, it will probably run MinGW just fine. < 1320683573 527433 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Having a cross-compiler is fine, even preferable, the question is just when I make foo.exe, can I run that and have its output go to the right place. < 1320683578 705588 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Yeah, the main advantage is that ./configure doesn't take minutes to run. < 1320683591 806539 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it does sometimes! < 1320683594 402403 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because the fork() is implemented at the NT layer, not on top of Win32 :P < 1320683605 150736 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Do you have any idea what the context is...? < 1320683609 355087 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, you're talking about optimisations to make configure run faster < 1320683609 473202 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :./configure /always/ takes minutes on Cygwin < 1320683613 280708 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1320683613 911603 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not the general speed of configure itself < 1320683619 889956 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is not what we are talking about at all. < 1320683624 450898 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was about to say that configure always takes minutes on cygwin as an example < 1320683628 405164 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I noticed it was the context < 1320683629 386942 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1320683635 671383 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you're talking about making configure run faster on Windows < 1320683638 718868 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :by not using cygwin < 1320683650 114097 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I'm naming a reason the POSIX subsystem is much nicer :P < 1320683696 64788 :Zuu!~zuu@unaffiliated/zuu QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1320683698 350981 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: You should see the "stock" POSIX subsystem tools, the ones Microsoft ships... they're completely awful < 1320683705 666595 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: It uses some ancient version of ksh < 1320683719 164890 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, Interix has an efficient fork? < 1320683726 45185 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: More efficient than Cygwin's < 1320683740 498564 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think NT can perfectly support a fork()y process model, just Win32 can't < 1320683756 644291 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why not < 1320683764 140351 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because it doesn't offer fork() < 1320683772 752754 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cygwin just spawns the process and fucks around to make it jmp to the right place < 1320683777 448258 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Exactly, why doesn't it < 1320683781 337663 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/the process/a new process running the same stuff/ < 1320683784 191407 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because Windows. < 1320683786 418480 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it can be done well in Interix < 1320683786 926689 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Because Microsoft don't care about fork()? < 1320683790 42150 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Firk ding blast < 1320683794 570490 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Firk ding blast < 1320683802 882563 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(What?) < 1320683830 556781 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1320683833 719747 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That took ages to parse :P < 1320683850 729718 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: But yeah, Windows has been all about the threads since approximately forever. < 1320683858 117302 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm well aware of that < 1320683871 699405 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Well, Win32 was basically /ported/ to NT < 1320683883 183721 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :So whatever limitations its process model has will exist in the NT port too < 1320683898 503870 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, that's true I suppose < 1320683973 665800 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I mean, obviously the bits that NT replaces might make things more flexible, but I doubt the actual process model changed much beyond getting more layers, because WIn32's API is based around it < 1320684011 920672 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: OR, efficient COW fork() would be totally possible for Microsoft to offer, and they just don't care. It might even be a lock-in thing to stop people writing overly-portable programs. < 1320684110 744115 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Man, why isn't all open source documentation this good... < 1320684116 938176 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Reading the Gentoo Prefix/Win32 PDF :P) < 1320684122 357007 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because of people like me. < 1320684123 790396 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's why. < 1320684159 935848 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1320684453 499781 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: BTW, ISTR that the subsystem in Vista onwards is better than the one in XP, but I used Gentoo Prefix fine on XP so YMMV < 1320684961 487234 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1320685113 772864 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1320685671 647875 :ive!~nn@189.179.245.35 JOIN :#esoteric < 1320686223 692762 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: say, is hackiki.org supposed to be broken? < 1320686417 733210 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :First release of Kansas Lava (ittc.ku.edu) < 1320686418 82469 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOT MORE OF THEM < 1320686827 348065 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUU < 1320686863 846809 :shachaf_!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 NICK :shachaf < 1320686871 58443 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was into Kansas Lava before it was cool. < 1320686899 149692 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :# ls -l bin/su < 1320686899 302438 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :-rw------- 1 root root 33112 Dec 6 2009 bin/su dafuq < 1320686922 744464 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does the 'dafuq' mean? < 1320686923 125203 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did hackiki get pwned? < 1320686986 574417 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Hahahahahahahaahaha < 1320686987 50962 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :We should never have let newsham stay. < 1320687064 624180 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: So what's in bin/su < 1320687083 209132 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Idonno, but its modes are wrong and I don't think I have a canonical to compare it against. < 1320687095 76233 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Surely you can just get a canonical one from Debian < 1320687101 610642 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I'd check logfiles :P < 1320687103 297762 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh duh :P < 1320687135 434527 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Check the audit tables! < 1320687273 979627 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not pwned, just the wrong modes. < 1320687274 537759 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf. < 1320687286 709315 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: They pwned HackEgo JUST to fuck with the modes. < 1320687300 475604 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :# ls -l bin | grep -v '^...x' < 1320687300 597102 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :total 4420 < 1320687300 649489 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :-rw------- 1 root root 66152 Apr 29 2008 mount < 1320687300 649652 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :-rw------- 1 root root 33528 Jul 25 2010 ping < 1320687300 649758 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :-rw------- 1 root root 28944 Jul 25 2010 ping6 < 1320687300 976889 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :-rw------- 1 root root 33112 Dec 6 2009 su < 1320687301 931785 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: But srsly, if things are wrong then it could have just been mode-changed as part of a greater pwnering :P < 1320687302 973013 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :-rw------- 1 root root 46040 Apr 29 2008 umount < 1320687305 218576 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: *Hackiki < 1320687308 315220 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :...yeaaaaaaah. < 1320687310 948218 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is Whenever Turing-complete? < 1320687324 654787 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: I think so < 1320687330 142953 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you basically emulate serial execution < 1320687337 302339 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are HackEgo and Hackiki connected? < 1320687341 694353 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That means nothing to me < 1320687356 346486 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[BDarn this connection that makes me ask questions thirty seconds after they've been answered. < 1320687405 535422 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :How does irssi even *suspect* that I've typed in an escape character followed by [B? < 1320687436 336096 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : How does irssi even *suspect* that I've typed in an escape character followed by [B? < 1320687438 283201 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: cursor chars < 1320687442 184466 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the connection is too laggy < 1320687447 820431 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the timeout happened before the [ came in after the esc < 1320687469 186759 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the esc came in and then it was a long time before the [ came in? < 1320687502 512777 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Where a long term means more than like 50 ms < 1320687506 512011 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/term/time/ < 1320687533 325260 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Surely if I press the escape key, wait a moment, and type [B, the same thing out to happen. < 1320687539 652341 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1320687561 936994 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it doesn't. < 1320687567 964478 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/out/ought/ < 1320687596 205211 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*shrug* < 1320687611 799997 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps my terminal is holding the escape character in escrow before sending it out. < 1320687647 736409 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :My logging is insufficient to figure out how this happened :P < 1320687683 559752 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I'm so glad I never used Hackiki right now :P < 1320687691 489889 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Nothing is lost *shrugs* < 1320687930 464038 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whelp. I now have a database. I'm so proud. < 1320687960 668901 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOLOLOLDISCOVERY < 1320687964 276244 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :fdupes effs up modes. < 1320687974 664320 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@h214n3c1o291.bredband.skanova.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1320687975 581179 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@h214n3c1o291.bredband.skanova.com QUIT :Changing host < 1320687975 638272 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1320687986 822475 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has three tables in it, each with one row! Granted, two of the tables have only dummy data in them... < 1320688036 748368 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Enjoy your pain < 1320688042 903862 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Nice < 1320688047 215409 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: the pain of... having a database? < 1320688053 56705 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: The pain of using one < 1320688056 177635 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1320688081 42180 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :How does the pain of using a SQL database compare to the pain of using Perl? < 1320688195 231293 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOD that's lame. < 1320688197 993145 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :DAMNED FDUPES < 1320688221 336356 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I wish I could swear like you. < 1320688240 433897 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But tswett lacks the ability to speak < 1320688261 200637 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tragic, really. < 1320688275 689091 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ohwell, luckily I have backups of everything so this won't take TOO long to fix I hope. < 1320688293 368715 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1320688295 102226 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :}:( < 1320688364 293563 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1320688385 898831 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor discovers not to run untrusted code on / :P < 1320688398 754638 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: No, I discovered not to trust fdupes :P < 1320688403 357729 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or that < 1320688409 240691 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor discovers not to trust by default :P < 1320688414 43365 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I needed that disk space! :( < 1320688424 577659 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Doesn't fdupes use hard links < 1320688425 10604 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what happened? < 1320688433 211291 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Yeah. < 1320688433 263889 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Hard links for anything mutable are an awful terrible idea < 1320688438 859806 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I don't run it over / < 1320688444 251671 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I run it over /bin, /lib and /usr < 1320688446 990342 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Since tools are completely inconsistent about breaking or not breaking the link :P < 1320688447 759126 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fair enough < 1320688451 67496 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I bet dpkg can break it < 1320688464 523866 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obviously this plan did not fully work out as I had hoped :P < 1320688474 213176 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wouldn't touch anything dpkg manages, anyway. < 1320688482 178888 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Hackiki broke < 1320688486 643980 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :With hard links, can you have a file with two different sets of permissions and everything? < 1320688504 596613 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Uhh... no. < 1320688506 534215 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the permissions are hardlinked too < 1320688516 435102 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, they're on the inode not the directory < 1320688517 821421 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Two different paths and nothing else? < 1320688525 378847 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :two different paths on the same fs < 1320688532 477817 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hard links point to inodes, which contain everything but the name in this context. < 1320688543 960636 :derrik!~xix@194.150.65.75 QUIT :Quit: quitter < 1320688554 982878 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nods. < 1320688567 169785 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1320688737 998482 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1320688799 72445 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: To answer your original question, HACKIKI WAS NEVER DOWN EVER. < 1320688856 470428 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: YES SIR. < 1320688872 900055 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: My backups are so great, looka how fast I fixed that shiiii! < 1320688881 543145 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That shiiii is so fixed. < 1320688903 235333 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I fixed the shit out of that shit! < 1320688938 156455 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: wait, what happened? < 1320688964 420421 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: I ran fdupes, that effed up some modes, but because Hackiki caches I didn't notice until those caches expired. < 1320688964 724333 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :He fixed a horse race. < 1320688985 445239 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I see. So what was the problem that this caused? < 1320689004 379344 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Hackiki's chroot couldn't run anything :P < 1320689015 918082 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Oh, the problem fdupes solved? < 1320689018 818757 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Lack of disk space. < 1320689022 881446 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: huh. How was it able to continue running when the chroot couldn't run anything? < 1320689033 149670 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I would expect that to cause Hackiki to go down. < 1320689035 923442 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because the httpd is from outside. < 1320689037 519554 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: It already was running, and didn't need to run anything new to read a cache. < 1320689042 198844 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And/or still running. < 1320689065 442039 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I see. So this was mostly a theoretical problem; it didn't cause any actual trouble. < 1320689092 685094 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: ... Gregor: say, is hackiki.org supposed to be broken? < 1320689117 293526 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: well, yes. I said that because I noticed that Hackiki was running perfectly fine, and I suspected that maybe it was supposed to be broken. < 1320689154 636344 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :... I've erased history too well. < 1320689200 355726 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor discovers the wonders of communicating with tswett :P < 1320689217 390731 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION preens. < 1320689297 870728 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: so, how does this grinworthy software work? There's a repository, and a sandbox with a copy of the head revision, and programs run in the sandbox, and, if they have write permissions, the sandbox is then committed back to the repository? < 1320689308 675923 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Grinworthy is so not a word. < 1320689316 61220 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is extremely a word. < 1320689319 799952 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: More or less. < 1320689341 856694 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Does it use UMLBox yet? < 1320689343 593893 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: truly you have a dizzying intellect. < 1320689349 576598 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Nope :P < 1320689365 271688 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: It will ... sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooon < 1320689367 387207 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: How does Hackiki prevent injecting arbitrary badHTML, anyway < 1320689374 673007 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: It doesn't. < 1320689377 586362 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neat < 1320689379 993353 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Welllllllllll < 1320689384 279866 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: To be fair, that's not quite true. < 1320689389 160468 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have heard quite enough :P ...but go on < 1320689406 411972 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Hackiki ITSELF doesn't, however the template Hackiki filesystem only lets you write scripts for the Wiki formatter, which only allows wikisyntax. < 1320689432 820865 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But custom formatters is like twenty to ninety percent of the appeal. < 1320689437 368150 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Why is Gentoo Prefix Interix Wtferix 3 giggerixes >_< < 1320689449 502047 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Doesn't take long to download in a civilised country < 1320689452 512283 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh god, I was just slightly puzzled by the idea of a function which doesn't map numbers to numbers. < 1320689455 32943 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHAT HAVE I BECOME < 1320689456 190972 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I think there might be better mirrors you could get it from < 1320689459 567640 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: It's downloading at 800KB/s < 1320689465 376254 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shrug < 1320689470 865892 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOT - FAST - ENOUGH < 1320689477 218805 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: It should come in source form :) < 1320689495 858821 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Welp, I'm tired of downloading, I'm going with Cygwin cuz it's better lol. < 1320689502 785605 :Darth_Cliche!~Darth_Cli@c-67-176-12-54.hsd1.co.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1320689509 254866 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: For some values of better lol < 1320689519 194755 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Equal to not) < 1320689562 38111 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"1) The idea that any subject is inherently more rigorous/challenging than another is bollocks." < 1320689572 546520 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :— person in a Guardian comment thread. < 1320689581 542589 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Anyway, it's probably that big because it also contains the installers for the subsystem itself that it runs automatically *shrug* < 1320689588 613056 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the price of convenience < 1320689589 322274 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I... guess it's not particularly surprising that it's a hotbed of idiocy. < 1320689597 259669 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ohhhh yeah < 1320689666 880380 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hackiki would probably be rather simpler if pages were Lua files rather than arbitrary executables. < 1320689689 936554 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also more terrible < 1320689694 181732 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep. < 1320689705 284142 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially since you'd have to use Lua < 1320689720 950966 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Speaking of terrible, I'm working on another terrible codenomic. < 1320689723 859091 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1320689733 933486 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Codenomic? < 1320689735 595918 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello! < 1320689783 654524 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've installed Apache and Postgres and, you know, done stuff. Next is the actual *stuff* part of the nomic. < 1320689807 378132 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: yeah. Essentially, a computer game whose source code can be changed by the players at runtime. < 1320689816 37026 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1320689823 632725 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Two bad software choices! < 1320689827 634090 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good start. < 1320689832 915226 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds exceptionally tricky to get right. < 1320689853 990323 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seem to remember someone discussing something like this much earlier....? < 1320689856 404995 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Codenomics have worked perfectly well in the past; PerlNomic was the most prominent and lasted for years and with high activity. < 1320689872 26137 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1320689911 312516 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: thank you. < 1320689914 713401 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, it's a wiki-style thing with accessible code? < 1320689921 96825 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: more or less, yeah. < 1320689922 510944 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: No, it's a game. < 1320689930 168992 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you mean Hackiki. < 1320689941 283190 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's like single player Hackiki in a way(?) < 1320689950 539356 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: what would you advocate instead of Postgres? The brilliant DBMS known as "files"? < 1320689950 650255 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :??? < 1320689955 363581 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: yes, but with multiple players. < 1320689964 272735 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: I'd question why you think you need one, or what you're doing, or anything < 1320689972 441353 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: also, there's a superuser, and the players can, with consensus, run stuff as the superuser. < 1320689973 57555 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's like multiplayer single-player Hackiki. < 1320689973 311579 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Postgres is the best SQL DB though < 1320690009 523792 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I don't believe "lasted for years and with high activity" on PerlNomic < 1320690013 985001 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it lasted for years but with very low activity < 1320690017 18504 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Those were separate statements < 1320690020 528519 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have used SQLite but you can use whatever works best for your situation < 1320690024 627186 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm… < 1320690024 747179 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: It had high activity when it was an Agoran officer < 1320690027 127225 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That sort of period < 1320690027 722344 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote It's like single player Hackiki in a way(?) Ngevd: yes, but with multiple players. < 1320690034 598269 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :711) It's like single player Hackiki in a way(?) Ngevd: yes, but with multiple players. < 1320690036 706898 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: even higher when it was Slashdotted < 1320690038 772790 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: And PerlNomic-related proposals were regularly passing < 1320690041 271929 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :How did PerlNomic work, normally? < 1320690044 375404 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: and yes, but I wasn't around then < 1320690046 270392 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, hm, if you want ACID (to disk) but don't particularly want SQL, what options do you have, apart from writing it yourself, which can be rather tricky. < 1320690046 739305 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. < 1320690057 798119 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: it was a bunch of cgi scripts, one of which let you add a proposal (a piece of perl code) < 1320690063 583308 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: another one let players vote on those proposals < 1320690064 642821 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: basically, proposals were Perl scripts, enough votes and it'd be run on the server as root < 1320690066 419841 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :when one passed, it was executed < 1320690079 37519 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and other cgi scripts added through this mechanism added various subgame mechanisms that added to a player's score, etc. < 1320690081 939480 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or at least, with enough perms to affect the whole of the nomic < 1320690090 226196 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there were scripts to help write proposals too < 1320690091 372665 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: not root :P < 1320690099 912062 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :root was Normish < 1320690109 348383 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : elliott said 3h 8s ago: Nobody uses any of the stuff musl doesn't have except for C++ crap <-- cfunge wants some of the C99 math functions, far from all required. Whatever FIXP, FPDP and FPSP requires. < 1320690123 202761 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :cfunge also wants _posix_poopadvise and uses inline asm < 1320690123 899193 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which had similar activity to PerlNomic while it was a player of Agora, but didn't last as long < 1320690125 24371 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm TURT might use sin/cos too < 1320690130 970535 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't have sin/cos? < 1320690137 799169 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think Normish got onto a couple of spam blacklists. }:P < 1320690138 21975 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :sin is not C99. < 1320690139 192559 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, sinl < 1320690140 404800 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :long < 1320690147 59798 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :err long double* < 1320690161 597349 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, no longer inline asm, modern gcc actually compiles the intrinsic for it sanely < 1320690166 52868 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I interpreted Vorpal as "C99 functions, also sin and cos" < 1320690172 750433 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: http://git.etalabs.net/cgi-bin/gitweb.cgi?p=musl;a=blob;f=include/math.h;h=677248287ae99470346db96e5d64926ed12b7645;hb=HEAD < 1320690189 232595 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :musl? < 1320690195 384051 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :musl just doesn't have complete C99 math support. < 1320690205 81628 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: jfgi < 1320690207 735942 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, the only reason I used inline asm was that using the gcc intrinsic produced terrible code in then modern gcc versions < 1320690214 660297 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also wait, people have used GCC inline assembly and come out sane? < 1320690227 332059 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :gcc inline assembly is easy < 1320690227 629395 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, well, people claim I'm sane < 1320690242 574098 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, no, you're so Vorpid it hurts. < 1320690244 276009 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Why does Windows have to be so terrible? < 1320690251 38669 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Why are you using Windows < 1320690257 798222 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, it's because you're not using the POSIX subsystem < 1320690277 17365 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I just wanted a "real" Windows machine to not cross-compile on and not test with WINE :P < 1320690278 414339 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I just played the Trine 2 beta. Quite promising I have to say. I look forward to the full version of the game being released. < 1320690281 414901 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, yeah. What I need to toss into the nomic blender now is... pages. Stuff that you see when you go to zbasu.net, and which interacts with the database and stuff. < 1320690294 575604 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, did you play the first Trine? I forgot < 1320690295 457695 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lemme know when you give up :P < 1320690304 447674 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I haven't played any of the Bundle games yet < 1320690305 982800 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: on the codenomic thing? < 1320690308 743056 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well < 1320690312 585401 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apart from the ones I have played < 1320690314 44946 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Yep! < 1320690322 399869 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Oh, I didn't even get that bundle < 1320690324 437404 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, i.e. Voxatron which isn't terribly good. < 1320690324 864166 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I haven't given up on it in the last two years. }:P < 1320690325 214203 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1320690327 516145 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait dude < 1320690328 228514 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you < 1320690329 680322 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, okay. < 1320690329 906205 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't get < 1320690331 667385 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :spacechem < 1320690346 630058 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: It's made this little progress in the last two years? < 1320690350 849479 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Let me know when you give up in fifteen < 1320690353 115855 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, Trine is really fun. Don't even bother trying it on intel graphics though < 1320690388 623903 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric : I'm sure robots will become good conversationalists probably not before they become good barbers, though < 1320690391 444209 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perl has a trusted mode, right? And it ought to be easy to write web scripts in Perl, and for Perl to access the database... right? < 1320690421 844814 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perl has taints, which are useless. < 1320690424 464748 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :If that's what you mean. < 1320690427 109423 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have to say I never seen a game with so much bloom as Trine 2 though. Trine 1 had a lot of it too, but even more in Trine 2. Works within the setting though. < 1320690447 586057 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm may be HDR rather than bloom, not sure < 1320690461 857746 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric : tswett: It's made this little progress in the last two years? < 1320690461 976043 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric : tswett: Let me know when you give up in fifteen < 1320690485 79849 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also let me tell you about this amazing ElliottCraft thing, also how it will run on a new thing called @. < 1320690521 429562 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I have never once claimed @ is an actively developed project, and I've already pointed people to the various bugs in other packages Elliottcraft is blocked on *shrugs* < 1320690528 259710 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fix those bugs or quit complaining < 1320690549 187080 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric : What is a good-natured jibe I have not heard of this? < 1320690590 603697 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Usually good-natured jibes aren't things you've actively whined about < 1320690606 612297 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :When have I ever whined about EC or @ development? < 1320690634 848502 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1320690643 978049 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: OMG I'm only at 22% downloaded < 1320690647 634486 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS TO ME < 1320690659 662823 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: America sux < 1320690681 507339 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: GODDDDDDDDDD BLESS AMERRRRRRICAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA, LAAAAAAAAAAAAAAND OF PEOPLE WHO PRONOUNCE THEIR ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRS! < 1320690691 741375 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*cough* < 1320690720 783585 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover wishes to remind you that Canadians pronounce their r's too < 1320690889 626820 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1320690896 888570 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*:R < 1320690919 841568 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Touché < 1320690932 303192 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Tourché. < 1320691001 130183 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: omg great news! I gotta write my own lib, ansi-terminal won't work for the output end of things and I need input support too < 1320691007 798316 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :~fuck~yes~ < 1320691125 69334 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, someone on the IWC forum likes my MSPAFA < 1320691166 977822 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Canadians pronounce their R's so hard they pronounce them even when there are no R's! < 1320691175 608276 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: And sigh, you were right about moving above the top of the screen < 1320691183 721275 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Grergror < 1320691286 254725 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, is curses at all relevant? < 1320691300 357713 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: Yes, and unusable for my purposes < 1320691305 654769 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay < 1320691325 967388 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only pretend to be an even half-way decent programmer < 1320691351 436179 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't realize you even pretended BA-DUM TISH < 1320691453 947671 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::R < 1320691691 339410 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :How can I get the width and height of the current X screen from the terminal? < 1320691939 461086 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: xrandr I suppose? < 1320691944 44933 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably a better way. < 1320691946 57305 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Ahh, thanks < 1320691952 613414 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Hey, guess what I don't have installed :P < 1320691957 836344 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hyuk < 1320691969 293691 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :xdpyinfo? < 1320691998 836965 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Python 3.2? < 1320691999 781262 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fortran? < 1320691999 839876 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Windows Vista? < 1320692009 421825 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :AT&T Unix System V? < 1320692016 823226 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :But actually xdpyinfo was a suggestion. < 1320692145 718844 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Speaking of xdpyinfo, when I did a fresh install of Debian on my shiny new machine for some reason it thought my DPI was 350, resulting in lolfontsize. < 1320692219 989325 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Open an rxvt or xterm (xfce terminal won't work, probably not gnome terminal either) and run this Haskell program (no dependencies): http://sprunge.us/WeDa < 1320692222 126187 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Trust me, it's worth it :P < 1320692228 559586 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uhh < 1320692233 706889 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Warning: Not for epileptics < 1320692239 233246 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :*whew*, don't have Haskell at work. < 1320692256 4709 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dammit! < 1320692265 842678 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're on x86-64 Linux right? ;D < 1320692286 466707 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :... yessssssssssss < 1320692335 959457 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Dammit, I can't statically link this :P < 1320692347 945082 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Muahahahaha < 1320692389 925576 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: But I _CAN_ rewrite it as a Python script! < 1320692494 986062 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1320692512 856046 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello oerjan < 1320692530 356569 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :evening all < 1320692533 641604 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: On gnome-terminal, the windows gets small, then it grows, shrinks again, and then a lot of strange character sequences (meant as escape codes) appear on the screen, with the window still small. < 1320692540 90105 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :twice11: Yep :P < 1320692553 91973 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what happens in Xfce too < 1320692561 657631 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems to dislike negative numbers. < 1320692630 466441 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Hahaha, I'm making you write Python. < 1320692664 533970 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Throw in an abs application on the "let j" line and no escape-spam appears in the window. < 1320692707 403821 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :twice11: I think negative numbers might be what make it go so haywire on rxvt < 1320692756 704965 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Python seems to ruin the effect... maybe it's not fast enough :P < 1320692765 503362 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Teehee < 1320692841 509561 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: On rxvt, the effect does not change with/without abs. < 1320692847 921999 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems to ignore the sign. < 1320692860 280734 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, weird. < 1320692883 41389 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does it work on your machine too? Dunno if it's just my WM or whatever. i.e. the pseudo-duplicated window effect and the like < 1320692884 953172 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :And my xterm does nothing. < 1320692906 396820 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I get no duplicate window effect. < 1320692948 180306 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I get a periodically shrinking/growing and oscillating window with rxvt, no effect with xterm, just grow/shrink with gnome terminal. < 1320692953 244968 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh < 1320692958 588016 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm using the xterm codes, so it's weird that it does nothing < 1320692967 635046 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably a security feature. < 1320693037 775038 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or a non-annoyance feature :P < 1320693037 931896 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, security, indeed. < 1320693050 252678 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Allow window ops" in Ctrl-Rightclick. < 1320693066 279432 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't say I can think of a valid use for them :P < 1320693087 410289 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: There is a valid use. < 1320693099 40351 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh, I could even spawn more xterms; I'm thinking of something that spews audio to /dev/dsp or whatever, while bar-visualising it using an array of resizing xterms :-D < 1320693113 717938 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the times where "gui, noun: 10 xterms and a background image" was true, < 1320693117 542161 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could combine that with colour codes! < 1320693126 165619 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could position pop-up windows where they belong. < 1320693133 431424 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ha, wow. < 1320693135 955262 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did people actually do that? < 1320693146 442536 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. you could make a multi-window application without linking X11. < 1320693146 737472 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought xmessage was ancient. < 1320693154 665598 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, pre-X terminal multiplexing < 1320693169 973592 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, X terminal multiplexing, < 1320693175 427653 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, without linking in, right < 1320693176 880799 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :but without depending on libX11 yourself. < 1320693188 474212 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could just speak the X wire protocol :P < 1320693197 826331 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm too young to know whether someone used it. < 1320693210 590197 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :GNOME ignores the position, it just uses the size. < 1320693302 986199 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the reason I get no duplicate window effects or other strange things is most likely that I am using a compositing system. < 1320693348 728467 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :twice11: Me too (xfwm4 with compositing enabled) < 1320693351 877491 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although no fancy effects. < 1320693354 774214 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's why it was surprising. < 1320693361 784095 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess my LCD refresh rate is just too low. < 1320693376 952116 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I run gnome-shell (gnome 3.0), and the stuff looks really smooth here. < 1320693413 88426 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw: gnome terminal interprets size 0 as "default/original size" < 1320693442 525467 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :twice11: My condolences re: gnome-shell < 1320693449 228390 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although it's actually Mutter doing the window management duties there. < 1320693535 349253 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is mutter a module of gnome-shell? I don't see a separate window manager process here. < 1320693585 905050 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm < 1320693604 298421 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :In gnome fallback mode, I think there is mutter. And if mutter crashes, you get metacity. < 1320693615 70567 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :twice11: Maybe you're running COmpiz instead or something, or the executable is called something else < 1320693618 572389 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Mutter window manager can function as standalone window manager application for GNOME-like desktops, and serves as the primary window manager for the GNOME Shell desktop,[4] which is an integral part of the GNOME 3.0 release. Mutter is extensible with plugins and supports numerous visual effects. < 1320693620 154047 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :You might call that a "cheat code"... < 1320693636 39669 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :If only the fallback mode had a usable panel :P < 1320693648 385581 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :The standard mode has neither. < 1320693707 726108 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neither what? < 1320693715 214458 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bad grammar. < 1320693726 455831 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant "The standard mode doesn't have one, too". < 1320693726 954320 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, hasn't either < 1320693751 347881 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, hasn't either would have been correct. < 1320693822 418705 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is Gnome 3.0 all that terrible? < 1320693826 33565 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looks like mutter runs as dynamic library inside gnome-shell. < 1320693848 52335 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Yes. < 1320693866 520389 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gnome 3.0 looks nice, and is quite usable - but it abandons some concepts we get really used to. < 1320693877 615579 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :One of them being a customizable panel with applets. < 1320693880 166884 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I haven't run gnome-shell for quite a long while, but I used it for about a day a few months ago and it was intolerable; reviews don't appear to imply it's improved at all < 1320693885 377153 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are we talking "the buttons are all precisely the wrong shade of blue" terrible or "help where are the buttons" terrible? < 1320693905 337195 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: We're talking "unusable application starting/window management interface" < 1320693926 711211 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Honestly, I'm not even tied to the panel + windows model, I just don't want to replace it with something /worse/. If GNOME 3 came out with a tiling WM I'd give it a long while before deciding it sucked :P < 1320693966 17630 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What are the later reasons for it sucking? < 1320693973 291881 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alt+F1 i-c-e-w-Enter is not really that bad to start an application (yeah, I'm using debian) < 1320693994 244355 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: What? < 1320694009 370878 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :twice11: That's what dmenu is for :P < 1320694014 319402 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you'd give it a long while, there are other reasons for it sucking which are more subtle. < 1320694037 504888 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I had configured the quick-launch bar in GNOME 2.x, but never got used to using it. < 1320694059 97025 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Your last two lines have been uninterpretable, sorry < 1320694079 906744 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"If GNOME 3 came out with a tiling WM I'd give it a long while before deciding it sucked :P" < 1320694128 255156 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :As in "a tiling WM could possibly be a major improvement on the previous GNOME 2 model, so I would give it a fair chance before making any judgement". < 1320694145 649404 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whereas I could tell gnome-shell was fundamentally broken in a day. < 1320694161 719147 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, but why would your judgement still be that it sucked? < 1320694222 140489 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't imply that. < 1320694234 610707 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right, ambiguity. < 1320694257 837749 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neat, GNOME 3.4 is dropping Linux support < 1320694264 163547 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Very smart of them < 1320694274 78868 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because Poettering told them to! < 1320694275 144882 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :BSD only? < 1320694290 713744 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds like news from the onion, if you ask me. < 1320694300 722329 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zwuh? < 1320694302 290213 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm < 1320694304 355248 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :X-D < 1320694306 928737 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dropping non-Linux support < 1320694318 653265 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The other way around would be particularly amazing news :P < 1320694330 845359 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So they're not spiting everyone because Ubuntu switched to Unity? < 1320694359 310958 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :X-D < 1320694367 466252 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Fuck you, we're leaving! ANNOUNCING: GNOME 3.4 for Windows!" < 1320694415 802792 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who the hell bothers with cheating at the International Maths Olympiad? < 1320694451 883663 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :By which I mean North Korea < 1320694458 214159 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But why!? < 1320694538 698720 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's pointless! < 1320694543 405367 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And rather sad!Q < 1320694555 341215 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That 'Q' is symbolic of my pity. < 1320694559 93580 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster QUIT :Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net < 1320694584 232491 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :WTF, John McCarthy was the Lisp guy??????????????? < 1320694596 634128 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1320694609 334962 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It wasn't Joe < 1320694623 870669 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :All this time I've been wondering why we were mourning the inventor of McCarthyism. < 1320694638 234740 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :He died in '57 < 1320694652 291978 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: ......... < 1320694672 11133 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I... have to go and... do... things... < 1320694672 866445 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1320694700 889600 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :For reference, Joseph McCarthy would have been 103 had he died this year. < 1320694723 280998 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ironically, he was killed by Fascists < 1320694726 972922 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1320694798 539317 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1320694799 136014 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :For the benefit of future civilizations: he died probably due to alcoholism. < 1320694800 168557 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Reactions to GNOME Shell have also not been universally negative." --Wikipedia < 1320694802 278927 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well that's good then! < 1320694819 27157 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please tell me it just leaves off there. < 1320694825 906117 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :For the benefit of future civilizations: Ngevd is making a quaint 21st century joke; Joseph McCarthy is the President of Europe. < 1320694837 85214 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: No :P < 1320694850 386603 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: We really have to destroy these logs before civilisation falls. < 1320694858 890957 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :For the benefit of future civilizations: So that you don't discover our horrible secret. < 1320694889 872050 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Terrible Secret of #esoteric. < 1320694925 645762 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :For the benefit of future civilisations (shame on you, elliott and Ngevd): that was a reference to Shakespeare. < 1320694928 602844 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am the /kicker robot. Kicking is the answer. Kicking will protect you from the Terrible Secret of #esoteric. < 1320694933 104693 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The #esoteric Secret of Terrible < 1320694944 52499 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I look forward to GNOME 4 < 1320694946 793567 :ive!~nn@189.179.245.35 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1320694959 303849 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't. I look forward to GNOME 3.6 or so. < 1320694972 869537 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :GNOME with a new major version is known to be major breakage. < 1320694987 205415 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meh, I use Unity < 1320694995 26606 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because I am masochist. < 1320695010 95582 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :#esoteric has a terrible secret? < 1320695016 838171 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :twice11: Known for all two versions it's happened? :P < 1320695021 996235 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, shh < 1320695027 673670 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, I suppose GNOME 1.0 happened, but I'm pretty sure GNOME 1 was never not awful. < 1320695032 329529 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's a Terrific Secret! < 1320695050 289744 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, statistics with 2 data points is science. Statistics with one data point is crap. < 1320695067 136520 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Statistics with three data points is overkill. < 1320695078 70577 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :statistics with data is overkill < 1320695080 26288 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote Yeah, statistics with 2 data points is science. Statistics with one data point is crap. < 1320695082 264655 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :712) Yeah, statistics with 2 data points is science. Statistics with one data point is crap. < 1320695086 866233 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :You measure a third point if you need an error estimate. < 1320695090 853458 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Darn, Ngevd and olsner made it better before I added it. < 1320695095 734405 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`delquote 712 < 1320695098 869190 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​*poof* Yeah, statistics with 2 data points is science. Statistics with one data point is crap. < 1320695103 608919 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote Yeah, statistics with 2 data points is science. Statistics with one data point is crap. You measure a third point if you need an error estimate. < 1320695104 798459 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :There we go :P < 1320695105 512181 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :712) Yeah, statistics with 2 data points is science. Statistics with one data point is crap. You measure a third point if you need an error estimate. < 1320695147 730610 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :twice11: So is your name 22 and you just have to mangle it everywhere because of the leading digit? :P < 1320695172 771444 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, my name covers a terrible secret ;) < 1320695195 918696 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or a terrific secret, perhaps. < 1320695196 44349 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But not THE Terrible Secret < 1320695214 659414 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it's 1111) < 1320695220 680744 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you... have two 11th birthdays? < 1320695237 833300 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Possible, if he's 47 < 1320695254 918045 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or older < 1320695256 24681 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :today, as every day, is his elevenhundredeleventieth birthday < 1320695269 929593 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: Don't tell everyone the number combination of my suitcase! < 1320695273 139425 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, maybe twice11 was born at exactly midnight and blah blah blah DST. < 1320695287 490781 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe he was born on February the 30th < 1320695297 687375 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :he will be born in 4 days, on 11/11 -11 < 1320695358 967217 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :That nick has been chosen 13 years ago, when freaks still knew CP437 with graphic symbols for control characters and is correctly spelled twice#11 < 1320695369 737210 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, there's a new esolang < 1320695380 833768 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the other hand, probably today I would use a different nick, if I didn't get used to this one. < 1320695401 917307 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use Taneb in most places except for this channel. < 1320695416 169910 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : Hey, there's a new esolang <-- any good? < 1320695421 524817 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can only conclude that twice11 is actually Mars. < 1320695427 762808 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't appear to be a brainfuck derivative < 1320695435 317404 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, that is a start < 1320695441 245316 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sets down the brick. < 1320695464 614660 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hold on, Phantom_Hoover < 1320695469 67602 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Keep a hold of that brick < 1320695477 676193 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION congratulates elliot for looking up CP437 < 1320695480 786672 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION picks the brick up again. < 1320695495 198939 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :twice11: I know what CP437 is :P < 1320695500 863816 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: what are you doing with that brick? < 1320695501 102062 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :twice11, we all know CP437. < 1320695508 818567 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know it off by heart, though < 1320695512 25712 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, readying it for some brickbrainin'. < 1320695516 411936 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :heart is #3 < 1320695525 906876 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd like a second opinion < 1320695528 81879 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Lenta < 1320695533 370221 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: do a brickroll < 1320695550 530195 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :or some brickabrack < 1320695568 522304 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... < 1320695579 924039 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh FFS, when I look at ¬ my first thought is "better expand the food stockpile again". < 1320695583 723172 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :twice11: hm, which base should it be interpreted in? < 1320695584 841390 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Looks vaguely interesting < 1320695594 617094 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm < 1320695595 524116 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: < 1320695624 965021 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I'm only commenting as much as that elliott already looked up the right character. < 1320695628 485125 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, that's a bit of a typo there < 1320695628 608587 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't look much like a Brainfuck derivative. < 1320695631 197022 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh god, he's either writing something big or died. < 1320695647 372526 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who's he < 1320695657 544142 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily. < 1320695667 85337 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sir Terry Pratchett? < 1320695678 96697 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily boils? < 1320695679 88433 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :twice11: you mean " I can only conclude that twice11 is actually Mars."? That doesn't mean anything to me < 1320695683 534861 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know that he released a book like 3 days ago? < 1320695685 27907 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: How was I supposed to know that from the context < 1320695698 377507 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mind reading < 1320695704 272817 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Yeah, that's the quote I meant. < 1320695706 599380 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: Anyway, you'll know when he dies since he's committed to suicide *shrugs* :P < 1320695716 668556 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily wont ever talk it seems < 1320695717 169756 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :twice11: so what is the symbol for Mars? < 1320695724 816256 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i want to talk to boily < 1320695725 58388 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: You have access to Google < 1320695774 289625 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: ^K in the display RAM of some ancient IBM graphic cards. < 1320695776 894217 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :so 11 in base 10, meh. I was looking at the hexdecimal 0x11 < 1320695785 75973 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: The lurkers are usually lurkers because they're boring people. < 1320695797 999817 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Get some Turbo(?) Pascal! < 1320695807 568101 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :twice11: ugh nop < 1320695808 691463 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :no* < 1320695815 529927 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION forces twice11 to use Delphi.NET < 1320695830 345302 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seem to have a vague memory of hearing about that < 1320695833 238416 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds horrible < 1320695845 474335 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Last Delphi I had contact with is Delphi 5. < 1320695848 193895 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haha, ConsoleKit is dying < 1320695853 613433 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Being replaced with systemd < 1320695857 853011 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1320695865 942206 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: what will happen to distros not using systemd < 1320695873 316909 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :They'll switch to systemd :) < 1320695879 277660 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, nothing named CamelKit can remain in Linux, it needs to be a somethingd < 1320695881 605706 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's actually no worse than Visual Basic, but I don't think this means anything... < 1320695882 317736 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: you think ubuntu will? < 1320695891 69122 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Debian are, IIRC < 1320695895 443897 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1320695904 600987 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt Canonical are so attached to upstart that they won't in the face of pressure like that, but we'll see < 1320695906 317533 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: but did debian ever use upstart? < 1320695906 444306 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :PolicyKit gets what then? permissiond? < 1320695921 273389 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does PolicyKit depend on ConsoleKit? < 1320695932 72311 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't see anything about it being unmaintained on freedesktop.org < 1320695935 876382 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do consolekit and policykit actually do btw? < 1320695949 616740 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: also what will you do for Kitten then? I assume you won't use systemd... < 1320695951 317056 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, but olsner suggested all *Kits are dying. < 1320695959 870567 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :policykit is what allows you to do things like modify net connection/users/packages from the GUI < 1320695961 546227 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm I guess you could just implement the relevant interfaces < 1320695965 421764 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for stuff that doesn't use gksudo or w/e) < 1320695971 878604 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :twice11: they could change names too, I guess < 1320695973 267090 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and consolekit? < 1320695974 237585 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :finer-grained stuff < 1320695978 649922 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :My cat had some dtens. < 1320695984 56546 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :but people like to rewrite stuff because they can < 1320695986 234676 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"ConsoleKit is a framework for defining and tracking users, login sessions, and seats." < 1320695987 475091 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"ConsoleKit is a framework for managing user sessions and permissions. Some of the most common usages of consolekit is allowing non-root users to mount removable media and suspending/shutting down the computer through common desktop applications (ie: thunar, nautilus, the gnome shutdown menu, etc)." < 1320695996 841202 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :seats? < 1320696003 628550 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*shrug* < 1320696004 19176 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :also because the existing stuff sucks, but so will their replacements :D < 1320696004 532974 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: huh, i just figured since the active people are so boring, the lurkers must be the interesting ones < 1320696030 207088 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I see what twice11 meant < 1320696035 53433 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pretty sure olsner was not being serious :P < 1320696047 159991 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: yep, they're too interesting to dilute their interestingness with banter < 1320696052 338222 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: seats: If your computer has two keyboards and two seperately controlled monitors, you can have two independent sessions at the consoles. < 1320696052 700155 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like I could do without consolekit. Since none of those things actually work on my desktop anyway. Probably because I use startx rather than a login manager < 1320696056 231259 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :These are two seats. < 1320696070 765573 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :twice11: ... that sounds extremely rare < 1320696071 972288 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: You're meant to have ck-launch-session in ~/.xinitrc. < 1320696084 177857 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: hm I do have that < 1320696086 945471 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: That's not incredibly rare. Any thin client is probably a seat. < 1320696088 234076 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :exec ck-launch-session dbus-launch --exit-with-session startxfce4 < 1320696107 435240 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :so... why doesn't those things work < 1320696110 811302 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shrug < 1320696129 757048 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most of this new-fangled Linux stuff looks like overdesigned crap. < 1320696137 273245 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :But maybe I just don't understand it. < 1320696156 637500 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess removable media is nice. Hm < 1320696163 213007 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait a second... < 1320696176 217285 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lenta seems awfully similar to my old Ook!++ < 1320696181 277714 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: well... yes and no, names like ConsoleKit do look awfully out of place among the rest of the stuff < 1320696184 812932 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except further from brainfuck < 1320696189 207608 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1320696211 924317 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: freedesktop people do not care much about fitting in to the "old" ecosystem < 1320696212 202595 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: is there actually any /etc/init.d/consolekit though? < 1320696213 300321 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :though the process is actually just called console-kit-something, I thought it was called ConsoleKit < 1320696229 908790 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :or /etc/rc.d or whatever < 1320696246 194151 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/eventuality guess this took out < 1320696247 459603 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1320696248 736179 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/out/off/ < 1320696249 114656 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no such init script < 1320696251 259858 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(from http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software) < 1320696260 270956 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :but isn't mac or next where they started calling things FooKit etc? < 1320696284 699148 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: WebKit is the only thing I can think of < 1320696288 743412 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and is unrelated to all these < 1320696299 121838 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: OS X is more about Core Blah < 1320696310 974424 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :image, garphics, animation, video < 1320696314 175308 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/garphics/graphics/ < 1320696316 781955 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :core quartz? < 1320696322 819626 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :cowartz < 1320696324 119010 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :or what was quartz now again < 1320696325 81208 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Core Dump < 1320696328 807863 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :what did it do? < 1320696347 463828 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quartz == The display engine based on PDF data. < 1320696350 187699 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1320696369 773719 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe replaced by Core Graphics now. < 1320696373 53438 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :No idea. < 1320696373 633521 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1320696386 437172 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Quartz specifically refers to a pair of Mac OS X technologies, each part of the Core Graphics framework: Quartz 2D and Quartz Compositor. It includes both a 2D renderer in Core Graphics and the composition engine that sends instructions to the graphics card. Because of this vertical nature, Quartz is often interchanged synonymously with Core Graphics.[1]" < 1320696395 205327 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Where the heck was I downloading Gentoo Prefix? >_< < 1320696401 562211 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: ? < 1320696405 910048 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: you mean "why the heck" < 1320696407 454760 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I can't find it :P < 1320696413 671774 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: The URL or file < 1320696415 144650 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's conceptually inbetween Haskell and Perl? < 1320696420 438400 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Because the alternative is Cygwin < 1320696425 339857 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: why windows... < 1320696426 142457 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: The file. You can't help me, but that doesn't stop me from blarping at you. < 1320696430 421960 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: What's in-between a banana and a pile of dirt < 1320696434 699230 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Right :P < 1320696438 746453 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Try the Windows file-finding feature? < 1320696445 365362 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It OCCASIONALLY works. < 1320696445 777638 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, a rotting banana. < 1320696448 687720 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I don't think I was downloading it on Windows. < 1320696450 980152 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't like bananas < 1320696451 678620 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact I know I wasn't. < 1320696453 998627 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: also, modern internix requires win 7 ultimate, win 7 enterprise, or win server 2008 iirc < 1320696456 907880 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1320696463 47460 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: find . -name \*gentoo\* < 1320696466 615771 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, what's the rotting banana of programming languages? < 1320696469 679618 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: That's what I'm doing :P < 1320696471 657923 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Gentoo Prefix supports XP onwards < 1320696475 376949 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1320696478 298410 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: Perl < 1320696489 449013 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought that was the Banana! < 1320696489 988389 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I can't do it on my win 7 pro install. < 1320696491 224142 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well < 1320696495 659905 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :not like I need it < 1320696501 285013 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: so... why are you using windows? < 1320696509 26756 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: If this doesn't work on my Windows 7 Pro ... KILL KILL KILL KILL DIE DIE DIE < 1320696515 265722 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: It will. < 1320696515 369258 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I wanted a VM to not cross compile on. < 1320696517 914153 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Vorpal is just an idiot. < 1320696529 216422 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, if I can't find the damned thing X-D < 1320696536 55204 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: BTW, make sure you have the Administrator account enabled; see the manual for why < 1320696538 423809 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: well, microsoft said it wasn't supported. < 1320696547 585376 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Microsoft don't support XP, indeed. < 1320696554 191099 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure how this is surprising. < 1320696557 848274 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, hmm < 1320696560 700346 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Has it actually reached its EOL yet < 1320696563 93920 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Version 6.1 is included in Windows 7 (Enterprise and Ultimate) and Windows Server 2008 R2 (all editions)." < 1320696564 336759 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seriously, where the HELL did I download this >_< < 1320696573 520633 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Yes, OS components only get upgraded with the OS < 1320696577 750192 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Similarly, NT 7 or whatever isn't available for XP < 1320696589 599753 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: /tmp? < 1320696591 632396 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you reboot? :P < 1320696605 824585 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I'm just saying that version 6.1 of interix is not supported on win 7 pro. < 1320696610 755727 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I had to reboot the machine that was SSH'd in to download. < 1320696611 613068 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you can use an older version < 1320696613 217076 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know < 1320696613 619318 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Hence why I lost it. < 1320696616 764331 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: You could use... the version for XP? < 1320696624 103752 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: would that run under win 7? < 1320696630 737468 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: So was it in /tmp < 1320696641 524105 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: No, why would I download in tmp :P < 1320696646 226889 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Why the fuck would you use the version for XP on Windows 7 < 1320696655 865513 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :FOUND IT < 1320696666 762816 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :HURRAH! < 1320696668 668540 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: my point exactly. I'm just saying if you use win 7 you will need win 7 ultimate or win 7 enterprise < 1320696677 203801 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and who would still use xp? < 1320696693 952838 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: "Version 6.1 is included in Windows 7 (Enterprise and Ultimate)" < 1320696697 401795 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note: INCLUDED < 1320696707 432731 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Turns out smaller versions of Windows don't include all components which is why you might have to download them. < 1320696719 442153 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I did check recently, it is NOT available for windows 7 pro according to microsoft. < 1320696720 13238 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is also irrelevant since the Gentoo Prefix ISO contains the SUA files. < 1320696728 449741 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: if I'm wrong, please tell me where you found it < 1320696732 942147 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :as I would very much like it < 1320696748 124171 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Try looking on the Gentoo Prefix ISO :) < 1320696752 270022 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm okay < 1320696772 473913 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :OMG, Quark is dying :( < 1320696783 540485 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: quark? < 1320696785 175789 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Although Microsoft is killing SUA as of Windows 9. < 1320696791 85437 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1320696793 233012 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: 8, I think. < 1320696805 127969 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :"It is set to be deprecated after the release of Windows 8. [4]" < 1320696809 372994 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: :'( < 1320696810 8619 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like 8 will still have it < 1320696811 884442 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meh, fair enough < 1320696825 742881 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who cares, Windows 9 will probably suck :P < 1320696832 175106 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: tell me if it works on win 7 pro though if that is what you have < 1320696838 689658 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: won't windows 8 suck too? < 1320696850 307496 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the Piet pi calculation is the most interesting < 1320696854 733815 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Did I say otherwise? < 1320696859 269110 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Windows 8 will support SUA, so it's irrelevant < 1320696861 478065 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: nope < 1320696866 371564 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: That's what I have. < 1320696866 648469 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I can only assume he'll survive though, haven't seen any mention of quark leaving the show in all the spoilers I've read < 1320696870 764654 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haven't gotten OS X working in a VM yet :( < 1320696876 417694 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Don't read spoilers :P < 1320696877 259163 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I have 16GB of RAM now, so I'm VM'ing EVERYTHING) < 1320696902 255696 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: There are tutorials for things like OS X in VirtualBox < 1320696905 493137 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a pain but doable < 1320696908 613213 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I know, I've tried. < 1320696909 909404 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :And failed. < 1320696913 498614 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Less of a pain now that Apple support it on OS X hosts < 1320696914 741162 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I think it doesn't like my CPU or something. < 1320696915 584298 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: do you have a copy of xp pro 64-bit? Quite lightweight for being windows. More so than the 32-bit xp < 1320696919 374282 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I knew I shouldn't have gone with AMD >( < 1320696921 109738 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :*>:( < 1320696934 288573 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I don't need lightweight :P < 1320696950 86608 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I actually like reading spoilers so I know something of what I have to look forward to < 1320696950 766358 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: It gets through most of the installer, then freezes and dies horribly at 11% remaining and won't boot. < 1320696955 502608 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: come on, aero is never going to be fast in a VM < 1320696959 909812 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Heh < 1320696962 949754 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(sure you can turn that off) < 1320696967 616264 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Me using a GUI? Ha ha ha no < 1320696979 565402 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: That ruins DS9 a lot since the plot goes through major changes *shrug* < 1320696980 197364 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: :P < 1320696993 581366 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Aero runs just fine in a VM, and Aero can also be turned off. < 1320697013 215531 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: did I say anything that indicated the opposite of the latter+ < 1320697015 488762 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :So anyway, what's all this about Quark dying which now I assume is Star Trek Quark? < 1320697016 228075 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/+/?/ < 1320697027 680854 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Well, I'm assuming you're not just throwing bullshit statements unrelated to what the topic is at Gregor < 1320697038 297193 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I even said you could turn it off < 1320697041 19238 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : (sure you can turn that off) < 1320697056 59760 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I'm just occasionally dumping the plot of whatever DS9 episode I happen to be watching < 1320697066 402407 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Oh :P < 1320697077 5040 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1320697079 285052 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :or just the opening gambit, since I sometimes stop reading IRC while watching < 1320697114 610897 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, if anyone wants to avoid systemd in the future, Kitten is their best bet :P < 1320697145 562662 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_To_Go <-- now that is interesting. How do they think that will work with activation? Or did they drop activation and locking to hardware? < 1320697202 440963 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@121-74-65-236.telstraclear.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1320697202 839879 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@121-74-65-236.telstraclear.net QUIT :Changing host < 1320697202 892413 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1320697437 160837 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh! this is the episode where *that* happens... this is about as hilarious as when the guy in Enterprise got pregnant and grew nipples on his arms < 1320697481 569881 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Which episode < 1320697492 565959 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: So anyway, you were right about ANSI codes and scrollbars and I hate you for it < 1320697514 46259 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: what did I say about scrollbars? I don't remember < 1320697520 913415 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: 4x25, Body Parts < 1320697533 447246 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: That you couldn't just move the cursor up beyond the top of the terminal screen to poke lines that have scrolled out of view < 1320697537 770700 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're right, which is really annoying < 1320697574 334546 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1320697607 906772 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: yes cursor movement doesn't really fit well into the concept of scrollback < 1320697620 907791 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I'm not surprised < 1320697648 136608 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I have no idea what I can do, other than... well, I know you can hook into mouse scrollwheel because vim does it, so I could do that, wait for a repaint, and then adjust the now-visible lines appropriately?? < 1320697649 126110 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Euurgh < 1320697666 562291 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1320697667 653057 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's unlikely that you'll have more than 24 tasks pending at a time but it's still possible, so this is annoying < 1320697676 513455 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: INSTALLIN' DAT GENTOO < 1320697677 160025 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I don't know if that will work < 1320697685 449656 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Awww yeah < 1320697695 778145 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Is the Administrator account activated :P < 1320697698 11317 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION HELPFUL REMINDER < 1320697706 985663 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I don't see why not < 1320697718 942513 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Hmm, I guess because maybe only the last 24 lines are actually active < 1320697721 142982 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: anyway I think it might send some terminal code to get scroll wheel as character input, and it might only work with alt screen < 1320697722 71659 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: INSTALLING SUA FAILED < 1320697724 76196 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I BLAME YOU < 1320697725 59656 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :After all, printf goes to the end of the scrollbar not before < 1320697727 844616 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure < 1320697740 780810 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: failed with what error? < 1320697747 233385 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Weird, I guess it's specifically checking for the right version of 7? < 1320697751 813491 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Just get Ultimate, man :P < 1320697759 533589 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or... downgrade to XP, I suppose :P < 1320697761 905063 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I told you so... < 1320697765 312200 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: None, just "Installing SUA failed!" < 1320697776 521403 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: This Pro is actually /legal/ < 1320697789 81685 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: did it do it at the start of the install, or did it happen a bit into the install? < 1320697792 872388 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1320697799 440009 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Wooooow! I care so much :P < 1320697804 914502 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Beginning of install. < 1320697809 72648 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: you mean to imply that your Ultimate wouldn't be? :) < 1320697816 801638 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION installs cygwin. < 1320697824 146604 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: I'm sure as hell not going to PAY for Windows. < 1320697830 451159 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha, cygwin, welcome to hell < 1320697831 988073 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can sort of tolerate having it if I don't pay for it. < 1320697832 878795 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: You will regret your decision of Cygwin over piracy very rapidly < 1320697834 809421 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: was it gentoo's installer or microsoft's installer that did that? < 1320697844 262706 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gentoo's installer is the only installer involved. < 1320697849 507288 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I don't have a clue, Gentoo's just called SUA's installer. < 1320697851 483117 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1320697861 656999 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're lucky you'll have a 64-bit windows where cygwin doesn't work at all < 1320697867 516215 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't? < 1320697868 413755 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh < 1320697876 367684 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, it doesn't? < 1320697880 514398 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: SO AWESOME < 1320697881 403705 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :what cygwin does to emulate fork() is ... horrible < 1320697887 17746 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: why would it not work on 64-bit linux as a 32-bit program... < 1320697893 426374 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :it *might* work < 1320697901 284968 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :64-bit Linux? < 1320697901 392996 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: hello! < 1320697902 509359 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :but sometimes it just doesn't, apparently < 1320697903 499643 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cygwin for Linux! < 1320697907 791159 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: windows... < 1320697907 980222 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Uhhh, I have 64-bit Windows, but I assure you Cygwin works ... < 1320697909 708879 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: Holy fucking < 1320697919 911634 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: Your long reign as lurker is over < 1320697937 964910 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm at work, so my activity on IRC isn't quite stellar. < 1320697939 113950 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :and on some 64-bit systems, cygwin *sometimes* works :) < 1320697978 872014 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: You're at work 24/7? :P < 1320697979 998025 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: really? How does it fail then? < 1320697981 616275 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`pastelogs < 1320698007 431478 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.10997 < 1320698013 914310 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: fork() fails because cygwin can't manage to find a way to load all DLL's at the same address as in the parent < 1320698019 914993 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1320698021 545215 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Sometimes I forget that my computer's open. < 1320698047 342494 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: OK, you've technically talked 10 times this year before today :P < 1320698053 662312 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But there was a two year gap before that. < 1320698064 671008 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :was he in the channel then < 1320698069 714149 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :INSTALLIN' DAT CYGWIN < 1320698070 965736 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is kind of important < 1320698071 726838 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dunno < 1320698088 440395 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: This is going to be more painful than downloading Ultimate :P < 1320698091 848841 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that's *one* of the failure modes anyway, and apparently the workarounds for it don't always work at all < 1320698093 209100 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :woooah, history from 4 years ago! < 1320698096 803045 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: INSTALLIN' DAT CYGWIN < 1320698112 176679 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: hm... < 1320698127 239518 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never really was a fan of cygwin. If you just need to get GNU programs run, use MinGW. If you need a shell, use msys. If you need more, use unix. < 1320698137 64967 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :twice11: MSYS is just an ancient version of Cygwin. < 1320698144 564015 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :twice11: MSYS is sooooo painfully obsolete. < 1320698147 281865 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah why does Gregor need windows, he never answered. < 1320698149 849576 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's literally just Cygwin. < 1320698151 304050 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But ancient. < 1320698152 491398 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Yes I did. < 1320698153 812661 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And with no Unicode support. < 1320698170 279606 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: not really, I saw no sufficient important reason :P < 1320698170 517152 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Vorpal: I wanted a VM to not cross compile on." < 1320698182 693197 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :twice11: And MinGW doesn't let you use compile anything that uses such esoteric POSIX APIs as fork() :P < 1320698184 190392 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: cross compiling is kind of less work than cygwin < 1320698195 109430 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: If it compiles it works, right? < 1320698197 413977 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Until shit doesn't work and you can't test why. < 1320698203 405136 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: exactly! < 1320698209 423022 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, there is no fork on Windows. Too bad. < 1320698211 510857 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: no need to test or anything. Especially if C code < 1320698224 379553 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :twice11: Which is why Cygwin and the POSIX subsystem provide one :P < 1320698230 605382 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :And cygwin is just kudging around it and failing on x64 sometimes. < 1320698239 902984 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only want MingW for compiling, I just want a shell that doesn't suck foot, and an SSH server so I never have to look at the UI. < 1320698242 655663 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :That screams Cygwin. < 1320698250 406514 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :twice11: Yep, but the POSIX subsystem isn't, it just implements POSIX APIs at the NT layer. < 1320698260 257808 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: fork is slow there though < 1320698270 32875 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :So why does cygwin not use the POSIX system then? < 1320698271 632685 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: No shit < 1320698274 488055 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: (a) Stop typoing it already it's MinGW (b) Cygwin's shell sucks foot because it's built on top of Cygwin < 1320698285 818707 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :twice11: Cygwin is older than the POSIX subsystem. < 1320698292 45384 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It dates to the 95 days. < 1320698306 754426 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, Cygwin will live after the POSIX system is dropped in Windows 9 :P < 1320698315 481608 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :FSVO live < 1320698333 752359 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :That does not mean you can not have a Cygwin replacement using the POSIX personality on NT-derivatives that provide it. < 1320698348 795508 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :twice11: That's why Gentoo Prefix exists. < 1320698352 559565 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for Windows) < 1320698361 12372 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a full environment on top of SFU/SUA. < 1320698370 870360 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It just doesn't like Gregor's specific release of Windows for licensing reasons. < 1320698372 542273 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does interix do fork()? < 1320698379 625472 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't cygwin just switch to do the same? < 1320698382 932430 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: How does Linux do fork() < 1320698389 217615 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a subsystem, it's implemented at the NT layer < 1320698394 783189 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's at the same level as the implementation of Win32 < 1320698398 531954 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1320698408 18828 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :how is babby forked? < 1320698409 950882 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: so why can't cygwin directly call ntdll? < 1320698413 339833 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :For Cygwin to use it would involve first throwing out all of Cygwin's code and second becoming SFU/SUA < 1320698432 267695 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :are there any third party NT sub systems at all? < 1320698434 44853 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Because it runs on top of Win32? < 1320698445 771916 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yes, SFU/SUA is based on an acquisition of Interix. < 1320698463 954176 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :microsoft didn't make it originally? < 1320698464 489366 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cygwin and SSH installed! < 1320698464 898386 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1320698468 527205 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I think < 1320698481 709390 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah: < 1320698484 423932 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :This product began to be developed in 1996 under the product name OpenNT by Softway Systems, Inc. before the name was changed to Interix in 1998. The last release by Softway Systems was release 2.2. Softway Systems had virtually completed the next release code-named Firebrand in 1999 which became the basis of Interix 3.0. < 1320698484 548631 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Interix was acquired by Microsoft in 1999. Microsoft continued to distribute Interix 2.2 as a standalone product until 2002. < 1320698484 601084 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Interix release 3.0 was released as component of Services for Unix (SFU) 3.0 in 2002. Interix release 3.5 was released as component of SFU 3.5 in January, 2004. < 1320698484 683297 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Interix became integrated as component of the regular Windows OS distribution[5] as a component of Windows Server 2003 R2 in December, 2005 at release 5.2 and is a component of the Windows Vista release as release 6.0 (RTM November, 2006). Windows Server 2008 has release 6.0. Windows 7 and Windows Server 2008 R2 include SUA 6.1. < 1320698506 845234 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1320698517 391822 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Don't put ! after statements about your slow descent into hell :) < 1320698554 964484 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: What is it I can say to make you /ignore me? Trololololol? < 1320698565 812597 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Good luck < 1320698579 346250 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm SSH'd in and installing shit :P < 1320698582 841325 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems to work great to me. < 1320698593 297831 :Zuu!~zuu@unaffiliated/zuu JOIN :#esoteric < 1320698607 438070 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I thought you had to use the original setup program to install components in cygwin? < 1320698618 107500 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :what command line program do you use then < 1320698624 885725 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The setup program supports GUIless operation. < 1320698626 339380 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just painful. < 1320698629 38636 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1320698641 918490 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Anyway, yeah, it works great until you run any shell script ever, or run into one of its numerous integration problems, or it just plain breaks. < 1320698645 645390 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not using setup.exe < 1320698650 338291 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Or you realise how absolutely friggin' ANCIENT every piece of software it comes with is. < 1320698661 42714 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: GCC 4.5 is good enough *shrugs* < 1320698677 658171 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :gcc 4.5 is fairly new < 1320698678 31815 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, that's one piece of software. (It was gcc 3 not long ago, btw.) < 1320698767 477792 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aww shit, SLIM is unmaintained < 1320698769 776023 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: It's a hell of a lot more up to date than MSYS :P < 1320698788 207136 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: So relevant :P < 1320698849 963371 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now time to run a configure script huzzah :P < 1320698931 324200 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :night → < 1320698954 491735 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Have fun waiting < 1320698958 880970 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's time GMP's configure :P < 1320698963 557201 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm betting ... 20 minutes. < 1320699086 395399 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Have I mentioned that the POSIX subsystem makes the shell run only very slightly slower than Linux? :) < 1320699087 729608 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :minutes, hours, days, years, who knows... I doubt anyone's watched it to the end yet :P < 1320699162 422457 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Do I HAVE the POSIX subsystem? Doesn't seem so! < 1320699186 758090 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: You could download Ultimate quicker than waiting for Cygwin to run a configure script :) < 1320699221 351321 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: My Windows. It is legal. < 1320699232 210164 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Legally shitty < 1320699240 726857 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :All legal Windows is legally shitty. < 1320699248 631564 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could convince Gates to give you a copy for free quicker than waiting for Cygwin < 1320699269 170255 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still configurin'! < 1320699273 493261 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's chuggin' away! < 1320699280 685723 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe you could meet Jobs and have *him* buy you a copy even quicker < 1320699313 90087 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Necromancy: Faster than Cygwinâ„¢ < 1320699318 961118 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :DONE < 1320699326 905788 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :5:25 < 1320699331 252351 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're just saying that to make us stop goading < 1320699356 888046 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1320699360 904823 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :in two weeks/months/years/something we'll see a " DONE" and have no idea what you're talking about < 1320699376 323538 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please hold while I install make :P < 1320699521 901898 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to compute a lot of SHA-1 hashes with sha1sum; I'm running 4 sha1sum processes in parallel, what number of args should I pass to each sha1sum to overcome the fork/etc. overhead? < 1320699531 417924 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Considering that passing too many to one is a waste of time because it'll compute them sequentially < 1320699598 705159 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :how quickly does each item finish? < 1320699609 52065 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :sha1sum is pretty much instant :P < 1320699610 333732 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : how do u make uploader comments < 1320699625 566778 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's… somehow impressively worse than the normal YouTube standard < 1320699644 953430 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :[elliott@dinky ~]$ time sha1sum $(find /usr -type f -print | head -n 1) >/dev/null < 1320699645 240187 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :real 0m0.008s < 1320699645 293099 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :[elliott@dinky ~]$ time sha1sum $(find /usr -type f -print | head -n 16) >/dev/null < 1320699645 293267 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :real 0m0.030s < 1320699645 293377 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :[elliott@dinky ~]$ time sha1sum $(find /usr -type f -print | head -n 64) >/dev/null < 1320699646 5429 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :real 0m0.047s < 1320699648 55198 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :[elliott@dinky ~]$ time sha1sum $(find /usr -type f -print | head -n 128) >/dev/null < 1320699650 69822 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :real 0m0.118s < 1320699652 34199 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Does that help < 1320699672 236460 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm thinking maybe 16 to each process? < 1320699686 691581 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except that seems too low, maybe 32 < 1320699691 128950 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which adds a really tiny amount to the runtime < 1320699696 618634 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(0.003s) < 1320699703 821641 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, even 64 only takes 0.047s < 1320699721 64591 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, there's an easy way to measure < 1320699722 529022 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think fork/exec overhead is much less than a millisecond < 1320699740 990315 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Oh yeah, but the scheduler isn't gonna like millions of new processes a second :P < 1320699757 360246 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did a simple test run (once :P) with starting thousands of gcc processes on an empty file (which actually also does something), got about 1ms per execution then iirc < 1320699792 135 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehm, not all at the same time of course, started them sequentially < 1320699887 340984 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now, by default, Apache runs everything as the same user, right? I seem to remember that it's usually a bad idea to change this. < 1320699967 37766 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :real 0m35.221s < 1320699967 294833 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's for n=64 < 1320699982 431038 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: You're writing things as an Apache module...? < 1320700006 763725 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: no, but I might want to run CGI scripts as different users. < 1320700034 206320 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Have them communicate with daemons. < 1320700053 775987 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That sounds like it might be a good idea. < 1320700091 210522 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: 35s? :) that's like ... half the time you spent explaining the problem to me and I spent thinking about it? < 1320700098 269893 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :real 0m20.968s < 1320700098 390252 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :n=64 again < 1320700101 919293 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Oh, this is on a subset of the data < 1320700105 597201 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, ok < 1320700108 703703 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries with n=1. < 1320700134 174513 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The same time < 1320700140 306099 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :My CPU isn't getting pegged at all, I think I need more processes than CPUs < 1320700165 155971 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Trying n=1, j=128. < 1320700167 701963 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :18s. < 1320700180 409654 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Trying n=1, j=8192 :P < 1320700185 791563 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: do you currently have fewer processes than CPUs? < 1320700191 249056 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Finally my CPU's going at 50%. < 1320700194 333348 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: For this job, yes. < 1320700203 359888 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, that's slightly worse... so more processes aren't helping here. < 1320700209 875549 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries n=32, j=8192. < 1320700210 380911 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're not pegging the cpu, how about a larger n? maybe you're just not seeing wasted time on your cpu meter < 1320700226 961115 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sweet, n=32 j=8192 gets me 6 seconds < 1320700275 130107 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :n=128, j=8192 gets me 5 seconds. < 1320700293 648396 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :n=512, j=8192 gets me 6 seconds. OK, I think I want to lower j now... < 1320700354 822295 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sweet, n=128, j=128 gets me 4 seconds. < 1320700382 490181 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :n=64 j=128 gets me 3 seconds 8D < 1320700392 28144 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, annoyingly trivial problem made hard to get right/fast for the wrong reasons < 1320700392 556311 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :n=32 j=128 is slightly worse. < 1320700402 655811 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: What, this one? < 1320700412 56217 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :2,7,11,42,231 < 1320700426 261081 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :just hindered by sha1sum not wanting to implement the whole making a workqueue for its arguments and parallelizing over cpus to distribute work evenly < 1320700439 419366 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :n=64, j=64 is slightly worse than n=64, j=128... < 1320700441 268002 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Right :P < 1320700444 510211 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Configurin' PCRE! < 1320700474 216737 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: I think 2.6-2.8 seconds to calculate the sha1sums for 16384 files ain't bad. < 1320700492 345972 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :and xargs -P (or whatever you're using) can't do the fair distribution without requiring a fork/exec for each file - because it obviously doesn't want to integrate any closer with the things it starts < 1320700494 759643 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Is there no ready-made pcre package for cygwin? < 1320700503 272106 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :twice11: I need a MinGW one. < 1320700538 671757 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, supply of MinGW libraries is quite bad :( < 1320700538 795335 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: find ... -type f | wc -l is the fastest it can be, right? < 1320700564 220048 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :GMP and PCRE are all I need (for now), so hopefully I'm not in hell just yet :P < 1320700571 863500 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Wow, I just realised that Kitten could actually help you there X-D < 1320700578 681797 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Its package manager, that is. < 1320700585 597317 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean something like wc --files0-from=- -l? < 1320700593 553368 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's no inherent reason individual packages couldn't support architectures that Kitten itself can't run on. < 1320700603 99885 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you could install packages with the MinGW cross compiler. < 1320700610 996695 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: X-D < 1320700622 828491 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: I don't care about that :P < 1320700644 702114 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: oh, you mean just counting the number of files? < 1320700667 575311 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Yeah. It completed fast enough, though. < 1320700676 70466 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, if my incredibly rough calculations are correct, it'll take 30 seconds to do this. < 1320700680 166885 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously, there is some overhead involved in printing the whole file names and just counting the newlines... but you'd need a lot of files to notice :) < 1320700684 362917 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :So... yay. < 1320700705 70277 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :2:46! That's ... within 5 minutes :P < 1320700708 752285 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :you want inter-process deforestation < 1320700721 133517 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :find: `/home/elliott/.gvfs': Permission denied < 1320700721 291780 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh come on find, you're /root/ < 1320700723 712779 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can access /anything < 1320700724 590195 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :/ < 1320700733 771519 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :root_squash? < 1320700774 221518 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :twice11: ? < 1320700798 593377 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, I've got Apache, and I want to code in Perl. That probably means using mod_perl, right? < 1320700843 473622 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: If /home is on nfs, and the nfs export has root_squash enabled, < 1320700843 605025 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously not, write a perl interpreter in mod_rewrite instead < 1320700850 514400 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh here we go, I'll time autoreconf :P < 1320700859 445728 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :the nfs server interprets a client saying "I am root" as "I am nobody". < 1320700881 314640 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is supposed to be a security feature. < 1320700906 403309 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :OTOH, a client that can claim "I am root" could also claim "I am elliott". < 1320700908 783509 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1320700914 852102 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1320700917 257039 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: No. < 1320700935 702752 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Advantage of this pegging my CPU: It finishes quickly. Disadvantage of this peggnig my CPU: It freezes my system. < 1320700951 207547 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :autoreconf: 1:40 < 1320700954 463145 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: got any better ideas? < 1320700969 74279 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: freezing the rest of your system is its way of telling you it's doing its job < 1320700976 60831 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: You mentioned CGIs earlier, what happened to those, anyway? < 1320700989 596493 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I figured mod_perl might be just as easy, or easier, and slightly faster. < 1320700999 317847 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If CGI is easier, I probably should go with CGI. < 1320701084 605799 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes! use computer-generated imagery to make it *look* like you're running perl without you actually doing it < 1320701092 520684 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Did you receive my explanation of what I meant saying "root_squash"? < 1320701096 566370 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :genius :P < 1320701099 439361 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :twice11: Nope. < 1320701121 754524 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: If /home is on nfs, and the nfs export has root_squash enabled,the nfs server interprets a client saying "I am root" as "I am nobody". < 1320701139 37165 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is supposed to be a security feature. OTOH, a client that can claim "I am root" could also claim "I am elliott". < 1320701163 78833 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: FastCGI is what's popular nowadays in most ecosystems, either that or proxying a full HTTP server written in the language; consult your framework's documentation for the recommended deployment scenario < 1320701163 131313 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :t < 1320701186 418942 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Framework... am I supposed to have one of those? < 1320701188 548351 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, looks like the freezes come in waves :P < 1320701233 764908 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: If not, then you should already know what your deployment scenario looks like. Frankly I think you should learn more before jumping into something this complex, since you don't appear to have much experience with web stuff. < 1320701293 18860 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: sha1sum: /proc/804/task/817/ns/ipc: Invalid argument < 1320701306 232806 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: your argument is invalid < 1320701307 149177 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's, uh, always safe to read files in /proc, right? :P < 1320701321 137933 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I'm not familiar with the term "deployment scenario", and I also just know "framework" as meaning "a bunch of software that helps you do something", so... conclude what you will. < 1320701335 577918 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: /proc/sys/read_this_to_poweroff :P < 1320701350 686219 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :reading should be safe... I guess :) < 1320701365 15286 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: I gather Catalyst is the most popular thing around Perl parts. < 1320701374 606021 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But don't quote me on that. < 1320701382 670203 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: is there... a similarly popular thing around Python parts? < 1320701393 177173 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: I believe you said you were using Perl? < 1320701403 841465 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :but reading can definitely have side effects: had a system where you had to read the temperature sensor (from /proc/acpi/) to make the bios update the fan speed based on the current temperature < 1320701404 670943 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't actually started writing any P code. < 1320701421 166723 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Which, of course, means "language for a programming language whose name starts with P".) < 1320701439 137234 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: OK, I'm terminating this and excluding /proc, /sys, /dev and /tmp :P < 1320701534 699857 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, maybe I can read some CGI tutorial. < 1320701535 858203 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the same thing could trigger a bug that goes boom if you try to read from the wrong widget < 1320701540 240394 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's say something mixes up "poke this to read the temperature" and "poke this to reboot" :P < 1320701588 716661 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I think the primary reason to skip /proc would be that it has annoying special files, like pipes and links into the rest of the file system < 1320701589 715939 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, let's try this again :P < 1320701671 306078 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there something like ScriptAlias except not bothering to alias anything? < 1320701673 771190 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why does uniq have an option to ignore the first N fields, but not all fields beyond the first N? < 1320701683 755163 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Have I mentioned you shouldn't use Apache yet? < 1320701686 652755 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :also e.g. sha1sum on /dev/sda might be a bit annoying :) < 1320701720 264536 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: you may have, but at this point, I don't know how easy it would be to switch. < 1320701725 898571 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :just use cut/awk before uniq? < 1320701733 862684 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: You've written 0 lines of code. < 1320701734 929091 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it would probably be... really easy, since the only thing I've actually put work into is the Postgres database. < 1320701735 890985 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :arguably, uniq should not have the option at all < 1320701752 871497 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Except I need the field data after, duh < 1320701767 557215 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to /uniquify/ based on only the first field, but I need the data after that too < 1320701782 920511 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, right, annoying < 1320701791 98537 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd just remove Apache, and possibly also remove phpPgAdmin, since phpPgAdmin has nearly outlived its usefulness. < 1320701840 60835 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why on earth are you using a web interface to the DB < 1320701854 36636 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because it's pretty. < 1320701855 790488 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just write a few INSERT statements, that way you're not fucked if you have to recreate it too < 1320701869 574899 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :How many rows do you think this database contains? < 1320701875 311905 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm < 1320701877 373419 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/INSERT/CREATE TABLE/ < 1320701885 343150 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's more like it. < 1320701899 278261 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, you're going to have to learn SQL anyway to interface with it. < 1320701911 194991 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is a large time investment in itself, of course... < 1320701915 534182 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seeing as it's practically a profession unto its own. < 1320701921 504047 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. And I *am* using psql every so often. < 1320701927 226749 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I *am* already more or less familiar with SQL. < 1320701985 815037 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: I can write SELECT and INSERT queries =/= I am familiar with the relational model, how NULL works, how to do complex joins, how to get foreign keys right, how to use stored procedures, ... < 1320702007 476476 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope you at least know how to parameterise queries without string concatenation and escaping functions. < 1320702158 721608 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I *am* familiar with the relational model. I think. And joins seem easy enough, though I've forgotten how outer joins work. < 1320702164 891044 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Woo, eight and a half minutes later it finishes < 1320702174 153085 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Consider me fully reassured... < 1320702194 533538 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: congratulations < 1320702260 248558 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then foreign keys, those seem simple enough. Use a foreign key whenever a row needs to refer to another entity. Use CASCADE when CASCADE is appropriate, use DELETE when DELETE is appropriate, use SET DEFAULT when SET DEFAULT is appropriate, use NO ACTION when you don't know what's appropriate. < 1320702292 538374 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then stored procedures... those aren't the same as functions, are they. Though I (re-)learned how to create triggers today. < 1320702318 272833 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Oh great, xargs doesn't actually synchronise the output, so there's a bunch of incomplete lines and shit < 1320702390 187272 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh... I've seen that too, I could've told you before letting it churn for 10 minutes if I'd thought of it :P < 1320702421 793454 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(A mathematician's relational model: A table is a set of tuples. Given two tables, you can take their union or Cartesian product. Given one table, you can take subsets and projections. Done.) < 1320702458 395521 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Of course there's also the very high probability you don't even want a relational database, but whatever < 1320702478 565206 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But relational databases are nature's solution! God gave them to us! < 1320702479 757861 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: I wonder if GNU parallel does the same < 1320702513 291084 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :OTOH, there is also a high probability you don't really want a NoSQL data dumpbin, too. < 1320702517 777462 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, maybe it's something else that jinxes it, tee? < 1320702578 597025 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :twice11: Naturally. < 1320702592 325715 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: How did you get xargs to run jobs in parallel? Special xargs edition? < 1320702594 823458 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I'm about to mention is probably such a common problem that everyone but me has a solution to it. }:) < 1320702600 809003 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :twice11: Yes, the fancy-pants GNU edition. < 1320702602 911295 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, the clever folks that have built this should have made it work, right? because they're clever (right?) < 1320702627 916335 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: xargs is the last element of my pipeline. < 1320702647 883023 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: My manpage doesn't document -j for xargs, or yield any hits for parallel and background... < 1320702648 861556 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a .vimrc file on one machine. I want it to be on every machine. Ideally, I could just edit one copy of it and everything else would change to match. < 1320702651 645573 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :twice11: -P < 1320702666 831038 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanks. < 1320702668 193830 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :twice11: Re SQL vs. NoSQL vs. ...: I would suspect tswett would be best off with simple object persistence; likely his data set is much smaller than memory, too. < 1320702691 435552 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(*):S(~(*)*:S( < 1320702691 564606 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :)S~:^):^ < 1320702701 341196 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least most people generally want object persistence when they think they want an SQL database. < 1320702717 155858 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Keep it in a VCS repository, put it on GitHub/whatever, pull from each machine. < 1320702726 63162 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heyyyyyoooooo got me some OS X. < 1320702746 464541 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :SQL databases are a way to implement object persistence, although most likely not the one associated with least pain when implementing. < 1320702754 279714 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Or if you want something less fancy, rsync, but you'll need your own server and you'll have to be careful about modifying it from two places at once. < 1320702788 603787 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that's something SQL people already invented transactions for. < 1320702810 343500 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :twice11: Sure, they work as a backend, but "using an SQL database" through an automatic persistence facility where you don't even see the SQL isn't what most people think of when they say "using an SQL database". Also, the impedance mismatch makes it a pain. But you do get some nice advantages; a well-optimised and robust implementation, transactions, ... < 1320702829 16542 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :People want all the guarantees SQL databases offer without the actual "relational SQL database" part :P < 1320702833 151792 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : And that's something SQL people already invented transactions for. < 1320702836 849145 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's this in response to? < 1320702857 833385 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you still on SQL or did you go back to it? < 1320702869 543833 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :When were we previously on SQL? < 1320702889 385701 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Postgres. I guess you went back to it. < 1320702890 127781 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Reponse to "you'll need your own server and you'll have to be careful about modifying it from two places at once." < 1320702910 917324 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/m3jns/on_the_most_fundamental_level_what_is_a_computer/ < 1320702914 107111 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: so the less fancy way is more work? :) < 1320702918 568146 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What *are* computers? We just don't know. < 1320702932 66431 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :twice11: Merging > locking < 1320702932 799222 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I guess it's less fancy as in uglier... < 1320702935 39940 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I can feel the pain of auto-generated SQL queries for complex object models... < 1320702939 480959 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :twice11: You're not a CVS person, are you? :-) < 1320702954 809073 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know cvs, subversion and git. < 1320702955 101616 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Less fancy what? < 1320702955 885726 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK this is right up our alley and half the answers are misleading. < 1320702965 539186 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"To add to this, it is an open problem (known as the Church-Turing thesis)" < 1320702977 323325 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :And transactions don't necessarily mean locking the whole table. < 1320702977 955947 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: reply to "Or if you want something less fancy, rsync, ..." < 1320702994 107177 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the *most* fundamental level? I guess a computer is one of the components of the universe's wavefunction or something... < 1320702994 939815 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Yep < 1320703002 924801 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :If queries are independent on the same table, they are still run in parallel, even updates. < 1320703009 493324 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :twice11: Well, how do you propose to implement transactional config file modification?? < 1320703020 94217 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Merging already done by the SQL system. < 1320703023 30880 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you're saying every config file should be an SQL database running on a server or something. < 1320703052 294528 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, config file, sounds like something you usually don't update in day-to-day operation. < 1320703067 592522 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"static" is probably an excellent name for a directory containing CGI scripts. < 1320703070 200456 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you don't really need transactions on it, or a database... < 1320703089 968380 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :twice11: ...that's good, because nobody said config files should be databases... < 1320703097 883140 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was telling tswett how to synchronise config files across multiple machines sanely. < 1320703106 384773 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"This is wrong. The Church-Turing thesis is just that, a thesis, not a problem: it *states* that computation simply means "what Turing machines and equivalents do"." < 1320703109 269838 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone nitpick. < 1320703110 64632 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. a VCS or rsync, and then I said why the former is preferable (multiple independent modifications, for one). < 1320703114 386191 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, use a blob in a singleton table... < 1320703127 494520 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :twice11: ...why do you think a database is assumed here? < 1320703130 681195 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :We're talking about ~/.vimrc! < 1320703131 323859 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any statement can be thought of as a question. < 1320703165 939880 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems I missed the context then. < 1320703196 423237 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's interleaved discussions for you. < 1320703200 152192 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just jumped on it when you claimed that SQL is likely not the solution and then talked about concurrent updates. < 1320703230 548790 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :.vimrc sounds like a fine thing to put into $VCS_OF_YOUR_CHOICE < 1320703251 982402 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I was talking about SQL likely not being suited for a different thing :P < 1320703301 321020 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :CREATE TABLE vimrc ... < 1320703315 484001 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I probably should lop off one of this server's domain names. Is there an easy way to tell Apache that if the client is asking for remy.s.zbasu.net, just give them a 404? < 1320703330 672251 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION → sleep < 1320703331 761368 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1320703359 956560 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Map that virtual host to a non-existing path, maybe? < 1320703405 497439 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll map it to /dev/null, thereby making some people a little bit angry. < 1320703427 577772 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"You're not supposed to use /dev/null! It's the empty file, not the invalid directory!" < 1320703437 139507 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That probably won't work. < 1320703438 596239 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"But it *is* an invalid directory." < 1320703451 500967 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I should email my hosting company telling them I lost my ssh key again. < 1320703468 418604 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: you should have kept it in a SQL database so this wouldn't happen! < 1320703476 564164 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: The computer died. < 1320703480 445860 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hadn't yet backed up. < 1320703505 399173 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :SQL servers make it easy to have a replicated server in sync... < 1320703577 288352 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. You should have done that. < 1320703578 269164 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I ought to see if I can do that higher-order query thing with acid-state; I've had a vague idea for it for a while and now that object persistence has been brought up... < 1320703598 900213 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: ? < 1320703624 709140 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually I really just want something as nice as Durus is for Python; distributed persistent STM... < 1320703630 433867 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1320703634 514112 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: you should have kept it on a replicated synchronous SQL server farmy thing. < 1320703874 691678 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gee. So far, my CGI scripts work on the server if and only if they do not work on the command line. < 1320703892 287651 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: just write ) or something < 1320703896 301698 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suddenly feel a little bit like Karkat trying to write a ~ATH program. < 1320703897 873061 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :run it on the command line, observe it failing < 1320703903 773440 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now you have a brilliantly working CGI script < 1320703904 193205 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-96.opaltelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1320704024 525118 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems like system(foo) doesn't work in CGI. < 1320704359 130430 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps the script doesn't have access to any executables... < 1320704393 70909 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aha! cd . works on the server. < 1320704434 271261 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But /bin/echo doesn't, even though that file exists... < 1320704531 998192 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This behavior doesn't seem to make sense. If I run system('/bin/echo albatross'), I get an internal server error. If I run system('/bin/echo'), my browser attempts to download the page. < 1320704554 413209 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I comment the line out, it works as expected: I see text. < 1320704617 506768 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There goes the no-access-to-executables hypothesis. system('set') doesn't work. < 1320704709 431894 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :New hypothesis: it works if and only if the command has no output. < 1320704720 39603 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :uaaaaaaaai < 1320704746 16225 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: send headers first < 1320704747 165552 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :duh < 1320704755 849274 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what I'm doing. < 1320704775 407263 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This works: http://pastebin.com/TQBvdTNs < 1320704782 192160 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Change "false" to "echo albatross", and it fails. < 1320704806 108823 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't open that now. will look in ~5m < 1320704832 470404 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh! that was some crappety-crap quality, rm -fr Season.5 < 1320704833 546915 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu NICK :sebbu < 1320704848 580162 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.33 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1320705018 621443 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :and seasons 6 and 7 too... so it goes < 1320705106 771962 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION pats elliott on the head repeatedly. < 1320705303 640762 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1320705591 570813 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: yep, i was right. < 1320705597 888791 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: you're not sending headers correctly < 1320705603 518175 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :they must be terminated with two newlines < 1320705647 820213 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: print sends a newline implicitly, doesn't it? < 1320705674 613969 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This program *does* output two newlines, so the only potential problem there would seem to be that it's outputting them wrong. < 1320705686 892152 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: I'm pretty sure Python's print omits a newline if the string ends with one. < 1320705703 121421 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, try \r\n\r\n. < 1320705705 909927 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rather than \n\n. < 1320705715 530834 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :So sys.stdout.write('blah\r\n\r\n') < 1320705782 859092 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: yeah, it doesn't work. < 1320705799 194175 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shrug < 1320705803 269400 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Catch exceptions, print them < 1320705804 642569 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastebin.com/nUVk8zg8 < 1320705808 581853 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Catch exceptions, print them < 1320705816 449540 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't throw any exceptions when I run it on the command line. < 1320705817 867015 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But okay. < 1320705839 286983 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the command line is a different environment. < 1320705937 683681 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1320706073 783185 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: http://pastebin.com/NZQFH8UA < 1320706079 209651 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still a server error. < 1320706098 915286 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Check server log filse < 1320706100 107612 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :files < 1320706101 927308 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, but now the system line isn't causing it. < 1320706140 797062 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :...I didn't import sys. < 1320706146 659196 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :smart. < 1320706159 399334 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION meant an except block around the whole thing, anyway < 1320706165 873956 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the cgi module has an exception handler thing you can activate. < 1320706179 196872 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prints a pretty HTML page. < 1320706244 360344 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Yeah, put < 1320706244 742225 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :import cgitb < 1320706244 794664 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :cgitb.enable() < 1320706245 845724 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :at the top. < 1320706282 149804 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"malformed header from script. Bad header=www-data: test.py" < 1320706285 570946 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not part of the header... < 1320706313 310730 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it is. < 1320706321 873474 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You print the header with sys.stdout.write. < 1320706327 809474 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which prints an exception in the header block. < 1320706334 111521 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Exception traces make bad HTTP headers. < 1320706373 36200 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But printing the header isn't causing an error, is it? < 1320706384 514034 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yeah, cgitb's probably a really good idea. < 1320706405 502049 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : But printing the header isn't causing an error, is it? < 1320706407 929874 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you didn't import sys < 1320706414 179764 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you print the header with sys < 1320706415 900256 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :??????? < 1320706417 994115 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but *now* I've imported sys. < 1320706448 821481 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I'm still getting a plain ol' regular error. < 1320706451 917655 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it work from the commandline < 1320706459 930422 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1320706472 930520 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1320706479 848894 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the actual script at this point < 1320706483 184741 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, why are you using CGI again < 1320706508 735063 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because it seems easier than mod_perl or mod_python. < 1320706530 105221 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would you use either of those < 1320706544 391906 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :mod_python is unmaintained and I think deprecated, and I don't think many people use mod_perl any more < 1320706556 490208 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't want to use RISC OS or QNX, so I guess I'll go for Windows < 1320706593 392959 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :just use django or bottle or something < 1320706606 401146 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh... right. Django exists. < 1320706640 619436 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :this project is going very well, I see. < 1320706654 756365 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :just use mod_wsgi < 1320706663 253934 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what everyone does < 1320706669 717670 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, here's my code right now: http://pastebin.com/8zenkdpF < 1320706669 989056 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :+ Django or Bottle or < 1320706675 461584 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It gives a plain internal server error. < 1320706683 295055 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The log file says, "malformed header from script. Bad header=www-data: test.py". < 1320706690 741904 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does python test.py produce < 1320706708 737083 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Content-type: text/plain < 1320706708 817095 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> whoami < 1320706709 143173 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett < 1320706709 892662 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Not in scope: `whoami' < 1320706716 134262 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plus a line break after the Content-type line. < 1320706725 606860 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know, a blank one. irssi eats those. < 1320706727 210215 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno < 1320706729 10988 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/1.3/howto/deployment/modwsgi/ here you go < 1320706736 234937 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thank you infinitely much. < 1320706754 287852 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the same applies to Bottle too < 1320706820 452103 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, Django is probably better. < 1320706894 401123 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: oh, and see http://code.google.com/p/modwsgi/wiki/QuickConfigurationGuide /Delegation to Daemon Processes/ < 1320706899 419035 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you probably want to do that (probably=definitely) < 1320706904 40788 :ive!~nn@189.179.245.35 JOIN :#esoteric < 1320707083 292939 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's this mod_wsgi thing? < 1320707118 182530 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Apache module to run WSGI apps. < 1320707166 233109 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, Durus is <6000 lines... < 1320707216 654257 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's WSGI? < 1320707237 662834 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_Server_Gateway_Interface < 1320707314 55646 :sllide!~jari@ip565eb113.direct-adsl.nl QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1320707371 701800 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see. Is that the sort of thing I would use instead of Django, or alongside it, or qué? < 1320707420 975658 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Upon reading https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/1.3/howto/deployment/modwsgi/, did you get the idea that Django was hosting documentation for a competitor to it, and saying that's the recommended way to deploy Django...? < 1320707431 63844 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's an API that both Django and Apache support. < 1320707471 12651 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your sarcasm is praiseworthy. I praise it. < 1320707472 973364 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 JOIN :#esoteric < 1320707576 116641 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, who knows Latin < 1320707593 604552 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :ancient romans < 1320707597 481181 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanks < 1320707610 233398 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know Latin-1 < 1320707621 4707 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Well, erm, hmm) < 1320707643 638656 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I can read some Latin and I can kind of dechiper some other Latin. < 1320707664 292698 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can give you a decent guess what the plural of "lusus naturae" is, for example. < 1320707687 152770 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Namely, "lusus naturae".) < 1320707698 945854 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Great! Wiktionary tells me that "durus" is a Latin adjective meaning "hard, rough (of a touch)"/"harsh (of a taste)"/"hardy, vigorous"/"unyielding, unfeeling, stern"/"oppressive, severe"; what's the opposite. < 1320707706 211235 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(In Latin, naturally.) < 1320707711 349703 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION HAS A LIBRARY TO NAME. < 1320707747 362842 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: name it bob < 1320707754 432021 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: what do you want the opposite word to *mean*? Soft to the touch? Gentle? Weak? Pliable? < 1320707759 194336 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, mollis looks close: "soft, delicare to the touch"/"pliant, flexible"/"mild"/"tender, weak" < 1320707779 990721 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: ALL OF THE ABOVE! < 1320707785 123077 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Problem: "mollis" is sort of an ugly word? < 1320707790 442703 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, that looks like a pretty darn good word. < 1320707799 592839 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay fine I'll call it mollis. < 1320707804 623812 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/delicare/delicate/ < 1320707805 359035 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: well, what do you think of "lentus"? < 1320707819 274093 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"sticky, tenacious"/"slow, sluggish" < 1320707824 357205 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"indifferent, phlegmatic" < 1320707827 269672 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :MY LIBRARY IS NONE OF THESE THINGS < 1320707846 738704 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's wrong with 'bob'? < 1320707854 80349 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: What's Bob in Latin < 1320707856 310802 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: use a different language, perhaps. Mol, mole, muelle, mou... < 1320707863 947149 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Oh, mollis even names durus as an antonym on the page. < 1320707865 188211 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: we're both looking at exactly the same documents, aren't we. < 1320707874 145742 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find that quite thoroughly likely. < 1320707889 652387 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have to say I won't be going with the Portugese translation. < 1320707893 591559 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/gese/guese/ < 1320708060 58080 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go with the Lojban translation! < 1320708073 277039 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ranti < 1320708158 601882 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeaaah. < 1320708236 79857 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Hmm, "molli" is a bit nicer. But then it'd be a dative or ablative singular!!!!! < 1320708256 256227 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that would RUIN the PURITY. < 1320708279 926850 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :weich < 1320708318 169692 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mola pehmeä morbido svak blando < 1320708329 547218 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Totally. < 1320708338 174316 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :SVAK < 1320709517 286525 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh, Django has apps. It comes with authentication and stuff. < 1320709640 485818 :ive!~nn@189.179.245.35 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1320709646 224522 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 QUIT :Changing host < 1320709646 278141 :tswett!~Warrigal@unaffiliated/ihope JOIN :#esoteric < 1320709740 584368 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Hi tswett Warrigal ihope. < 1320709844 867360 :tswett!~Warrigal@unaffiliated/ihope PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see you're referring to me by--wait, how old are you now? Are you an adult now? < 1320709854 370392 :tswett!~Warrigal@unaffiliated/ihope PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, you're not. < 1320709857 396496 :tswett!~Warrigal@unaffiliated/ihope PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're at most 16. < 1320709887 673327 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-221-94.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm afraid that elliott suffers from a rare form of dyslexia. < 1320709895 949816 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-221-94.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :He is, in fact, swapping the digits in his age. < 1320709906 258090 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :* tswett (~Warrigal@unaffiliated/ihope) has joined #esoteric < 1320709924 435356 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You evidently have three names. It is the only thing I can conclude. < 1320709941 257618 :tswett!~Warrigal@unaffiliated/ihope PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh. < 1320709955 368918 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :His preferred name is one of those pieces of uncertainty that surround him < 1320709961 282598 :tswett!~Warrigal@unaffiliated/ihope PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: so he's actually St Atom 61? < 1320709964 693730 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: And I believe I'm a legal adult in Scotland, but not here. < 1320709973 849942 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is relevant only because I googled it and Scotland came up. < 1320709986 123654 :tswett!~Warrigal@unaffiliated/ihope PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I guess depending on the place, I go by tswett, Warrigal, or both adiosToreador and Tavros Nitram. < 1320710058 327887 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-221-94.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Neat trick. You can become a legal adult without leaving whatever-the-fuck-you-call-the-UK. < 1320710069 16305 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I call the UK the UK. < 1320710097 893697 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I somewhat suspect it's about where you live, not your location. < 1320710099 89049 :tswett!~Warrigal@unaffiliated/ihope PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I guess those are just the online handles I've been using recently. There's also uorygl, which I stopped using recently, and Tanner, the name I use when looking at something... < 1320710099 414882 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-221-94.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, it's a bit hard to call it a country... Seeing as that would be England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland. < 1320710107 879972 :tswett!~Warrigal@unaffiliated/ihope PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er. Someone. < 1320710192 33928 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: there's another online handle you're recently using < 1320710247 863466 :tswett!~Warrigal@unaffiliated/ihope PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh, right. conduitController. < 1320710275 479954 :tswett!~Warrigal@unaffiliated/ihope PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: call me whatever the fuck you want, as long as people know who you're referring to. < 1320710285 69503 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Okay, whatever the fuck you want. < 1320710311 332447 :tswett!~Warrigal@unaffiliated/ihope PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I am ninety-nine point nine nine nine percent sure you will stop referring to me by that name within the week. < 1320710316 182271 :tswett!~Warrigal@unaffiliated/ihope PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yeah. < 1320710337 941150 :tswett!~Warrigal@unaffiliated/ihope PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example, don't call me "Mister Snuggles". People won't know who you're talking about. Don't call me "Ed Murphy" either. < 1320710347 672002 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: What does list-tries have over TrieMap... oh, it predates it by several months. < 1320710360 499457 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Okay, Ed Murphy. < 1320710373 370387 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should attempt to understand finger trees, I think < 1320710382 513361 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 JOIN :#esoteric