00:00:54 <kallisti> I guess it would make sense that you could delete all data prior to an execution step if you decide to jump back to a particualar execution step
00:01:20 <kallisti> however, I was thinking that it would be nice if you could then move forward from there if you wanted.
00:03:42 <oerjan> well, i mean that a real reversible implementation would physically deconstruct the original data when constructing the new
00:05:08 <kallisti> oerjan: doesn't that still imply some sort of incurring memory overhead?
00:05:18 <kallisti> in the "constructing the new part"
00:05:47 <oerjan> well yes, but you only use the memory for your current data structure at any time...
00:06:04 <kallisti> oh, well, yes that's how this would works, kind of.
00:06:35 <kallisti> there is a notion of "current data" within a larger graph data structure.
00:07:12 <oerjan> by "current data" i mean all of your current state, of course
00:07:27 <kallisti> it may end up being a tree and not a cyclic graph.
00:08:02 <kallisti> depends on whether or not a node can have more than one ancestor edge.
00:08:45 <kallisti> but I really don't know how "reverse this value" would look like if you have possibly two or more ancestors. nondeterminism I guess?
00:09:26 <oerjan> the wiki spam is really out of hand
00:09:58 <Jafet> oerjan: linear lisp to the rescue
00:10:19 <oerjan> Jafet: linear logic was in my mind
00:11:26 <Jafet> kallisti: http://www.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/LinearLisp.html
00:13:44 <Jafet> Oh wait, that article is too dijkstraan
00:13:57 <Jafet> http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/LQsort.html
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00:17:01 <elliott> Jafet: Dijkstraan is a good word.
00:19:50 <zzo38> Does the Haskell library have operator "bind but use first result value"?
00:21:04 <elliott> Gregor: gcc is getting STM, nee-ner nee-ner
00:21:27 <zzo38> What I mean is Monad m => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m a; What ought its symbol be, and how much would it be used?
00:22:24 <Gregor> elliott: I saw that >_>
00:22:40 <Gregor> elliott: My friend across the way told me this, while we both mocked how terrible that is.
00:22:58 <elliott> Gregor: Since it's C, I'll agree with the mocking :P
00:23:08 <elliott> Gregor: BUT I'M ISSUING A WARNING
00:23:17 <elliott> __transaction_atomic is definitely the best keyword.
00:23:33 <elliott> Gregor: Ooh, neat, the isolation is only from other transactions.
00:23:44 <zzo38> kallisti: That is for comonads
00:23:49 <elliott> Gregor: So as soon as you access one of these outside of a __transaction_atomic all your guarantees go out the window.
00:24:02 <zzo38> kallisti: That is also for comonads it is <<= with arguments flipped
00:24:26 <zzo38> I suppose <>>= can do
00:24:37 <pikhq> elliott: How insanely C-like.
00:26:44 <Sgeo> @djini (Monad m) => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m a
00:26:44 <Sgeo> @djinn (Monad m) => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m a
00:26:45 <lambdabot> http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/COMMANDS
00:26:45 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
00:27:01 <Sgeo> I'm lagging badly
00:28:53 * Sgeo was too, the lag thingy was going haywire
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00:29:13 <Gregor> <elliott> Gregor: Ooh, neat, the isolation is only from other transactions. <elliott> Gregor: So as soon as you access one of these outside of a __transaction_atomic all your guarantees go out the window. // no shit?
00:29:26 <Sgeo> kmc, not our fault!
00:29:33 <elliott> Gregor: See, I'm used to decent languages, where doing that is impossible :-)
00:29:55 <Sgeo> The lambdabot slowdown.
00:29:56 <Gregor> elliott: Type systems are for losers.
00:30:02 <elliott> Sgeo: Yeah I'm sure that's why kmc just joined.
00:30:11 <elliott> Gregor: Oh, looks like "STM" is inaccurate, seems like the work is being done by a company that does hardware TM :P
00:30:14 <Sgeo> Ugh, am I again going to have to explain that I'm not an idiot and I was trying to make a joke?
00:30:28 <Gregor> elliott: Yeah, but it has a software TM.
00:30:49 <pikhq> elliott: It's actually "*TM", where * is filled in with what's appropriate on the current platform.
00:30:54 <elliott> Gregor: Sortofmediumware TM
00:31:57 <Gregor> By the way guys, m68k sux.
00:33:14 <Gregor> elliott: It's so far beyond impossible to make anything m68k work in a modern system.
00:33:30 <Gregor> Emulation? Ha. Cross-compilation? As if.
00:33:47 <elliott> Gregor: Emulation is not that hard...
00:33:57 <elliott> Gregor: There are perfectly decent Mac emulators.
00:34:07 <Gregor> elliott: Most (read: all) do not emulate the MMU, so can only run Mac OS.
00:34:26 <zzo38> How often would you expect to use such an operator as I have described?
00:34:28 <pikhq> Could've *sworn* there were emulators that handled A/UX.
00:34:30 <kallisti> elliott: I wonder if you could add so many syntax gimmicks that imperative code in Haskell resembled other imperative code.
00:34:35 <elliott> Gregor: Even Mini vMac? I say this because MINI VMAC'S BUILD SYSTEM IS CLASSIC MAC OS-ONLY AND I CANNOT BELIEVE THIS
00:34:37 <Gregor> pikhq: I'm yet to find one.
00:34:44 <kallisti> but operated with monads and type safety underneath.
00:34:55 <elliott> "How to build the Mini vMac program from the source code.
00:34:55 <elliott> First download the source code archive from the download page, a file with the name “minivmac-3.1.3.src.zip”. Extract from this zip file a disk image (named “minivmac-3.1.3.src.dsk”).
00:34:56 <elliott> Now launch Mini vMac (version 3.0.0 or later), booting from a disk image containing a system folder. (The source code disk image doesn't contain a system folder.) (See the Start page for information about getting started with Mini vMac.)
00:34:56 <elliott> Mount the source code disk image in Mini vMac. At the top level of this disk is an application named "Build". Launch this application. A text editing window will open in which to type in the desired options."
00:35:08 <elliott> Gregor: "If this option is used by itself, the build system will generate the files needed to compile the standard version of Mini vMac for Macintosh OS X on Intel using Apple's Xcode 2.4.1 development environment."
00:35:44 <zzo38> kallisti: In my opinion, there ought to be macros, that allow you to implement such things as that, but it ought not be a part of standard Haskell.
00:36:12 <elliott> kallisti: If you do everything in IO with do notation, Haskell looks just like Python.
00:36:30 <pikhq> Gregor: Shame, it'd be really neat to (ab)use X to have a DOS/UNIX/Mac OS setup.
00:36:33 <zzo38> I don't think so. Even if you use layout it won't be like Python.
00:36:34 <kallisti> assuming you're using mutable refs.
00:37:06 <elliott> kallisti: (=:) = writeIORef
00:37:20 <lambdabot> Text.PrettyPrint.HughesPJ ($$) :: Doc -> Doc -> Doc
00:37:20 <lambdabot> Text.PrettyPrint ($$) :: Doc -> Doc -> Doc
00:37:20 <lambdabot> Language.Haskell.TH.PprLib ($$) :: Doc -> Doc -> Doc
00:37:35 <elliott> kallisti: (^) = readIORef -- needs GHC extension so you can use it postfix
00:37:44 <elliott> (like (a^), not a^, unfortunately)
00:37:59 <elliott> kallisti: But anyway, yes:
00:38:08 <elliott> kallisti: http://augustss.blogspot.com/2011/07/impredicative-polymorphism-use-case-in.html
00:38:11 <Gregor> pikhq: I just want one more arch so I can say my JIT supports a dozen archs.
00:39:10 <Gregor> elliott: I'm cheating by e.g. calling x86 and x86_64 distinct, and powerpc and powerpc64 distinct :P
00:39:30 <elliott> Gregor: Is the version on bitbucket the new JIT style?
00:39:37 <elliott> Doesn't look like it, but...
00:39:46 <Gregor> elliott: It's in a branch.
00:39:47 <kallisti> elliott: I wonder what the def $: bit is
00:40:09 <Gregor> elliott: Innit obvious?
00:40:26 <elliott> Gregor: What the fuck is funcelision? Ohh, func elision
00:40:29 <elliott> What's recordconditional :P
00:40:42 <Gregor> Those two branches are things that didn't work, but could have :)
00:40:51 <pikhq> Gregor: I wouldn't consider the x86/x86_64 bit a cheat.
00:40:55 <elliott> Gregor: Is recordconditional just doing if (compiling) record(...)?
00:41:11 <pikhq> x86_64 really *is* distinct from x86 in many rather important ways.
00:41:32 <elliott> Gregor: Why didn't that work?
00:41:45 <Gregor> elliott: It would arrange the jumps in a shitty way :(
00:41:49 <pikhq> PPC64, though? Total cheat.
00:41:59 <Gregor> elliott: Worked on x86[_64], but broke a bunch of other stuff.
00:43:25 <kallisti> elliott: I'm guessing $: is just another $ but with different precedence or something?
00:43:35 <Gregor> pikhq: HEY THEY'RE DIFFERENTish
00:43:47 <Gregor> pikhq: How 'bout ARM/thumb :P
00:44:40 <elliott> kallisti: I imagine ($) is used for something else.
00:49:32 <Gregor> pikhq: Whoops, doesn't work with thumb X-D
00:53:11 <Gregor> Aha, thumb uses a different branch instruction to go into normal ARM code than it does to go into thumb code, and by default when you call a function pointer it goes to ARM.
00:54:22 <kallisti> monqy: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Jobs thriving Haskell job economy.
00:54:34 <kallisti> monqy: http://www.haskellers.com/jobs
00:54:40 <kallisti> "there are no active job listings"
00:55:28 <pkzip> Haskell should be in the Esoteric list of languages
00:55:58 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
00:55:59 <kallisti> monqy: http://functionaljobs.com/ there are four here, none of which are Haskell.
00:56:30 <pkzip> Who are the Others ?
00:56:42 <elliott> kallisti: http://www.tsurucapital.com/en/jobs.html
00:57:18 <kallisti> "You are often referred to as a machine, executing quickly and smartly, while challenging yourself and your colleagues."
00:57:23 <kallisti> I wonder if they got any actual robot applicants
00:57:33 <elliott> kallisti: http://corp.galois.com/careers/
00:58:16 <pkzip> are we throwing Star-Trek quotes yet ?
00:58:57 <elliott> "live long and prosper" -gandalf of the uss voyager
00:59:16 <Gregor> elliott: Insufficient trollery, same franchise used twice.
00:59:30 <Gregor> "Live long and prosper." - Gandalf, Lord of the Sith
00:59:56 <elliott> Gregor: It's funny because you're trolling people by implying that Voyager is part of the Star Trek franchise.
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01:01:45 <elliott> kallisti: http://cufp.org/jobs/senior-architect-leading-investment-bank-f-net has legacy code written in haskell!
01:02:10 <kallisti> elliott: now I just need to convince them that I know F#!
01:07:42 <kallisti> In April 2009, when told about his Wikipedia article, he commented, "[It] is filled with inaccuracies, and it kind of depresses me." When asked why he didn't correct it, he replied, "The next day someone will fix it back."[25] (In Aug. 2011 Hofstadter said he is happy with the article and the only inaccurate part of his Wikipedia entry was the previous sentence because the inaccuracies were subsequently fixed.[citation need
01:11:22 <pikhq> elliott: It's funny because you're implying that Star Trek didn't end with DS9.
01:12:06 <kallisti> elliott: pikhq: Gregor: you're all implying that people care about Star Trek
01:13:05 <kallisti> a vacuous implication: you do not exist, therefore the premise is false.
01:13:24 <pikhq> Also, TNG was pretty damned popular when it aired...
01:13:39 <kallisti> subsequently everyone realized Star Trek is lame.
01:15:06 <kallisti> in the 70's VW Beetle, the windshield-wiper fluid dispenser was powered by the air pressure in the spare tire in the trunk.
01:15:41 <pikhq> The car was designed around being cheap.
01:16:17 <kallisti> also: not having full spare tires
01:16:37 <pikhq> It also had an air-cooled engine.
01:16:40 <kallisti> granted most spare tires have higher air pressure than normal tires because people typically don't refill them.
01:16:51 <kallisti> pikhq: well, most engines are "air-cooled" in some sense.
01:16:59 <kallisti> so basically you're saying "it has no cooling system"
01:17:25 <pikhq> "Air-cooling" refers to a "cooling" system based exclusively around the flow of air.
01:17:54 <pikhq> What I mean is "you're a fucking moron".
01:19:18 <kallisti> it's sort of a cooling system I guess.
01:21:20 <kallisti> but even in an engine with a broken liquid-cooling system and without a specifically design air-cooling system, the engine is still cooled significantly by airflow
01:21:35 <kallisti> to the point that you can drive a car with a broken radiator as long as you're going somewhat fast.
01:21:44 <kallisti> and don't stop or slow down very much.
01:22:40 <pikhq> Or live in a particularly cold area.
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01:24:08 <kallisti> a "car person" I'm friends with tried to tell me that the liquid-cooling system of a car is not comparable to a computer cooling system.
01:24:28 <kallisti> whereas in a computer it's "taking hot out"
01:24:28 <elliott> which is why people don't liquid-cool computers
01:24:31 <elliott> with the exact same methods
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01:25:22 <kallisti> it's very similar, cars just have more heat to deal with.
01:26:07 <kallisti> Jafet: kind of like how refrigerators "make cold"
01:26:17 <pikhq> Because cold is a real thing! :P
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01:27:43 <kallisti> I'm kind of baffled that cars have radiator fans.
01:27:58 <kallisti> considering that they typically have a huge volume of airflow passing through the radiator.
01:28:06 <kallisti> I suppose the fans are there for when the car is moving slowly.
01:28:09 <pikhq> Not when idling, I guess?
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01:28:18 <pikhq> Though, when idling your engine's not going to be very hot.
01:28:37 <pikhq> Heat is always relative, anyways. :P
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01:30:21 <kallisti> there's a lot that goes into making an internal combution not destroy itself and everything it's connected to.
01:30:47 <kallisti> or rather, to limit that destruction to something more manageable and slowly developing.
01:31:56 <pikhq> Yeah, something that functions by rapid controlled explosions is a bit hard to engineer. :P
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01:34:23 <kallisti> In the UK (but applying only to England), the Road Traffic (Vehicle Emissions) (Fixed Penalty) Regulations 2002 (Statutory Instrument 2002 No. 1808)[14] introduced the concept of a "stationary idling offence". This means that a driver can be ordered "by an authorised person ... upon production of evidence of his authorisation, require him to stop the running of the engine of that vehicle" and a "person who fails to comply .
01:34:30 -!- MSleep has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:34:37 <kallisti> ... shall be guilty of an offence and be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale"
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01:35:20 <kallisti> you there, sir! either stop wasting that meager amount of fuel, or expend vastly larger quantities moving somewhere this instant!
01:38:46 * kallisti imagines someone evading the police after being ordered to stop idling.
01:47:30 <oerjan> kallisti: it's illegal to idle a car unnecessarily in norway as well
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01:51:23 <oerjan> in or close to settlements
01:52:23 <oerjan> both noise and pollution are listed as reasons
01:52:27 <kallisti> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wankel_engine
01:53:07 <oerjan> (uk people may consider "close to settlements" to be redundant *MWAHAHAHA*)
01:54:40 <kallisti> the only problem is there's no way to really balance the fuel/air mixture, so you get basically equivalent fuel efficiency for comparable power.
01:55:02 <kallisti> so there's not really any benefit other than more power (still at the expense of an equal amount of fuel efficiency)
01:55:59 <elliott> oerjan: very impolite!!!!!! we have lots of hills and farms
01:56:07 <kallisti> but you could make like... a 3L 4-rotor engine and get the same power as a really really big piston engine.
01:57:45 <kallisti> the Mazda RX-8 for example gets 232 horsepower from 1.3 litres of displacement from 2 rotors.
01:58:24 <kallisti> the engine in my car gets 200 horsepower from 3.1 litres of displacement from 6 pistons
01:58:35 <kallisti> this is a big difference in size and complexity.
01:59:19 <oerjan> 150 horses, 40 camels and 1 orangutang
02:00:46 <elliott> kallisti: http://www.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell/2011-November/023072.html
02:03:07 <kallisti> see, this is the kind of stuff I want to do.
02:03:33 <kallisti> it doesn't necessarily have to be Haskell.
02:03:41 <kallisti> I just don't want to write /boring/ software
02:03:54 <kallisti> at least for the entire extent of my career.
02:04:33 <elliott> should have thought of that before going into programming.
02:06:12 <kallisti> also, note that: despite the similarities in engine power between my car and the Mazda RX-8, the power-to-weight ratio is completely different.
02:06:44 <kallisti> as the Mazda is about 1800 kgs lighter.
02:08:18 <kallisti> I wonder if I can take anything out of my car to make it lighter.
02:08:31 <kallisti> maybe if I remove the entire body.
02:08:50 <oerjan> cars are not a good place to hide bodies anyway
02:09:01 <kallisti> no one actually needs those big heavy doors .
02:09:05 <kallisti> it's just slowing them down and wasting fuel.
02:09:16 <oerjan> kallisti: aerodynamics
02:09:54 <kallisti> oerjan: if my cabin is a open frame with seats I'll have wicked awesome aerodynamics. :P
02:10:36 <oerjan> if by "wicked awesome" you mean "violent but inefficient", i guess
02:12:36 <kallisti> eh, my car will just intake so much oxygen that it creates a localized vacuum.
02:13:14 <kallisti> anyway you look way cooler when you're driving in a spacesuit.
02:15:05 * kallisti considers actually donating $10 to Wikipedia
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02:16:05 * kallisti imagines an engine powerful enough to suck all of the atmosphere off of the Earth.
02:16:23 * kallisti begins planning his doomsday device.
02:19:28 <kallisti> maybe I should expand this proposal to unix-like systems.
02:20:25 <oerjan> yeah they need a lot of air cooling
02:22:08 * kallisti is prone to turbulent subject change.
02:22:27 <kallisti> also: Worcestershire sauce is deliciously applicable to anything that tastes savory.
02:23:18 <elliott> you don't know what that is youre not englsijh
02:25:12 <kallisti> the Lea and Perrins recipe used in the states is ALMOST the same as the one in great brittania
02:26:02 <kallisti> as in it only changes the kind of vinegar and is pretty much exactly the same otherwise.
02:26:45 <kallisti> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems "Median[original research?]"
02:26:53 <kallisti> statistical calculations = original research
02:27:19 <elliott> kallisti: yeah to worse vinegar
02:27:41 <pikhq> White instead of malt.
02:29:20 <elliott> wow, JBethJenkinsj has spammed their user page twice :(
02:29:23 <shachaf> I like balsamic vinegar in particular.
02:29:47 <shachaf> Balsamic vinegar is probably the best substance one can consume.
02:30:01 * elliott sips his bottle of balsamic vinegar.
02:30:14 <shachaf> elliott: I've been known to do that.
02:30:30 <shachaf> If you look up my name on the Google, you find an "Executive Profile" which mentions how I like balsamic vinegar.
02:30:34 <shachaf> I wish I could get rid of that.
02:30:51 <elliott> I was about to complain, but then I realised I've sipped small quantities of vanilla essence before.
02:32:06 <kallisti> I like how no one makes Windows supercomputers.
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02:35:06 <kallisti> what's a good application for chart-making?
02:36:06 <kallisti> *what's a good software application that creates charts.
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02:37:36 <oerjan> thank you randall munroe for overruling my browser's decision on how to view large pictures. i think i shall read something else.
02:38:24 <elliott> oerjan: what decision is that
02:38:48 <elliott> oerjan: i think that's reasonable since it's a very zoom ui type thing, and most browsers only offer one level of zoom...
02:38:52 <kallisti> oerjan: sh, you just made xkcd's hits go up.
02:38:56 <elliott> and it's awkward to move around in 2d with them
02:39:23 <Patashu> oerjan, do you make the same complaint about google maps?
02:39:53 <oerjan> no, because they actually change the data displayed
02:40:28 <shachaf> oerjan: I'd rather they just gave me one bitmap and let me zoom myself.
02:40:32 <kallisti> oerjan: holy crap this is an awesome chart but I have no idea how to go about reading it.
02:41:47 * elliott would think oerjan were reasonable if browsers actually had any kind of sane image navigation/zooming ui.
02:42:21 <kallisti> this chart must be why xkcd has been so shitty.
02:42:31 <kallisti> Randall's been compiling sources for this thing.
02:42:33 <oerjan> ok maybe what mostly irritates me is that it doesn't actually fill my browser window
02:43:11 <oerjan> dammit now i'm going to have to actually look at it anyhow
02:43:43 * oerjan finds the maximize button XD
02:45:19 <elliott> kallisti: first they complain that they can't bookmark it, then you let them bookmark it and they complain it fills history...
02:51:48 <elliott> has anyone ever been a bee
02:52:15 <kallisti> elliott: I mean, not in reality.
02:52:42 <kallisti> but it's probable someone has had a weird dream or ingested a large quantity of hallucinogens and felt like a bee.
02:53:25 <kallisti> elliott: were you expecting a legitimate answer?
02:53:32 <elliott> OBVIOSUYL quintopia ;Q;Q;Q;Q;Q;
02:54:14 <quintopia> i am willing to sell to a good home at a reasonable price
02:54:16 <elliott> q q q q q qq q q q q q q q q q hi i wasnt intending to ping the quintopia but i pressed q and tab and the quintopia popped up
02:54:25 <elliott> the breaks thatm ben broken
02:56:28 <elliott> im not sleepy i just act like this sometimes
02:56:33 <elliott> usually when sleepy admittedly
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03:29:17 <elliott> typing a reply to kallisti on irc
03:29:33 <elliott> typing another line and hitting enter again
03:29:59 <kallisti> elliott: what are you doing in the more long-term interpretation that most people would interpret.
03:30:25 <elliott> do you want a helpful answer
03:31:12 <kallisti> elliott: I WILL NOT GIVE UP UNTIL YOU ANSWER NORMALLy -- oh okay
03:31:14 <elliott> i am idly ``surfing the net'' while idly ``waiting for someone tos ay something interesting''
03:31:32 <kallisti> not only did I look at that xkcd map thing
03:31:40 <kallisti> the biggest waste of time ever.
03:32:08 <kallisti> I thought it was always that way
03:32:14 <kallisti> maybe I wasn't there for the Golden Age.
03:32:17 <elliott> it used to be a bit less so
03:32:46 <kallisti> elliott: one thing you can say: they are very persistent.
03:33:05 <kallisti> of critisizing xkcd however horribly.
03:33:18 <elliott> "i was going to warn people that this is actually a brand-new comic that just visually resembles the last comic a lot, but then i figured, huh, PROBABLY my readers are used to that by now" --Dinosaur Comics caption
03:33:34 <elliott> kallisti: actually a different guy writes it nowadays.
03:33:42 <elliott> (even more annoying than the last guy)
03:33:49 <kallisti> I thought there were multiple writers.
03:34:07 <elliott> there were guest posts. dunno how frequent they are nowadays
03:34:15 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz* sms speeches ss wp youtube
03:34:20 <fungot> elliott: have i, perhaps, a hint, utahraptor!
03:34:24 <fungot> elliott: a " pg-13" picto-story
03:34:29 <elliott> fungot: the best rating for a picto-story!
03:34:40 <fungot> kallisti: as a man concerned, t-rex, that going shopping was your default activity?' then tony and louisa q were two people in love! romantic love, but there's a rude jerk, and then they both said the next few days were going to me, the omniscient. the dude has to sleep! superman could laser him from orbit while he's having nappy times! enter only if you have a valid passport to dreamland!"
03:35:05 <oerjan> fungot: ZYGOHISTOMORPHIC PREPROMORPHISM
03:35:05 <fungot> oerjan: here, i'll prove it, too, will take what i can get a little of that back with them, dromiceiomimus for a perfectly awesome introductory phrase that is forbidden to me unless i had married at that age myself...hmm...
03:35:23 <elliott> only attainable by self-marriage
03:36:33 <oerjan> hm, my intuition says that in "at that age myself" "myself" cannot be an ordinary object
03:37:42 <shachaf> Oh, kallisti is CakeProphet.
03:37:52 <shachaf> I thought we had some new blood.
03:38:01 <kallisti> shachaf: YOU ARE DISAPPOINTED BECAUSE IT IS ME????
03:38:34 <elliott> kallisti: http://qwantz.com/
03:38:46 <fungot> Selected style: qwantz (Dinosaur Comics transcriptions 2003-2011)
03:39:20 <shachaf> fungot: Gimme some double exclamation marks!!
03:39:20 <fungot> shachaf: are you a person who uses phrases at incorrect times? but then what's more likely: that we're the only ones for cows would say, hello t-rex, what is the deal"
03:39:23 <shachaf> fungot: Gimme some double exclamation marks!!
03:39:23 <fungot> shachaf: you all suck! friends again at breakfast, you, t-rex. i'll bring some vegetables and i'll show you!
03:39:25 <shachaf> fungot: Gimme some double exclamation marks!!
03:39:25 <fungot> shachaf: you must have had crazy dreams last night and hey, look, this was their word of the day last week, i will now share this secret. this is one secret, no more!
03:39:33 <shachaf> Dinosaur comics are boring.
03:39:57 <elliott> $ xzgrep -c '!!' qwantz.xz
03:40:05 <elliott> shachaf: Dinosaur Comics also feature double exclamation marks only infrequently!
03:40:08 <oerjan> `learn kallisti is a former prophet swearing off his pastry deity
03:40:24 <shachaf> elliott: Oh, right, it's just single exclamation marks.
03:40:32 <elliott> shachaf: That pattern matches triple, too.
03:41:16 <elliott> shachaf: You heard it here first: Only 6.41% of Dinosaur Comics lines with an exclamation mark feature more than one exclamation mark in a row.
03:42:44 <shachaf> dinosaur comics r stil dum lol
03:43:04 <quintopia> elliott: where is a website i can upload a small binary file without using flash?
03:43:35 <elliott> shachaf: almost as dumb as you (are for not liking (dinosaur comics))
03:44:25 <elliott> quintopia: how small are we talking?
03:44:42 <quintopia> oh less than a gig. not sure exactly.
03:44:59 <elliott> quintopia: less than a gig?
03:45:45 <elliott> anyway, filebin would have worked
03:45:48 <elliott> or was it limited to 50 megabytes
03:45:48 <quintopia> since capacitites and speeds have gone up
03:45:53 <shachaf> elliott: I heard you're in Northumberland.
03:46:09 <elliott> shachaf: Nah, Land's End. Also that place at the top of Scotland?
03:46:32 <shachaf> I don't know what these words are.
03:46:36 <shachaf> What place at the top of Scotland?
03:47:54 <shachaf> elliott: Land's End is totally not Northumberland! Which one is you?
03:48:08 <quintopia> dropbox is an application, not a website. can visit website. cannot install application.
03:48:16 <elliott> quintopia: cool! you're wrong.
03:48:37 <quintopia> is there a upload link on their website that i'm missing?
03:48:41 <Jafet> Your phone can't run rsync?
03:48:45 <elliott> did you make an account first?
03:48:51 <elliott> there's a fancy "log in" link.
03:49:16 <elliott> man I gotta upload this relatively big file and it's important enough to ask on irc for ~5 minutes but a username, password and email??
03:50:29 <elliott> shachaf: Are we talking, like, Cthulhu evil?
03:50:33 * kallisti is at a fierce 4.9 GBs thanks to invites.
03:51:10 <kallisti> I could invite all of my other emails.
03:51:11 <shachaf> elliott: Like, read :: Read a => String -> a evil.
03:51:24 <elliott> shachaf: read isn't /that/ evil.
03:51:43 <elliott> kallisti: It doesn't take effect until the other email invites, IIRC.
03:51:54 <elliott> I did it anyway though, 'cuz I was bored.
03:52:06 <shachaf> elliott: read isn't as evil as Dropbox?
03:52:14 <kallisti> elliott: I basically use my Public folder to link people screenshots and other random stuff
03:52:18 <shachaf> Dropbox does GPL violations and all sorts of things.
03:52:22 <kallisti> and occasionally LEGALLY SHARE NON-COPYRIGHT MATERIAL
03:52:49 * elliott sees nothing about violations.
03:53:13 -!- MDude has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
03:53:14 * elliott only finds http://lists.debian.org/debian-mentors/2011/02/msg00367.html without context.
03:53:21 <kallisti> elliott: what if there was some horrible irc client plugin that sent a message about every google query you made.
03:53:24 <oerjan> unsafeViolateCopyright :: DropBox -> a
03:53:34 <elliott> kallisti: I wouldn't install it.
03:53:52 <kallisti> what if it were mandatory as part of the IRC protocol?
03:54:23 <Jafet> kallisti: there's probably an mirc plugin for that
03:54:27 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
03:54:29 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
03:54:40 * elliott googled for: hot goats in sweaters
03:54:45 * elliott googled for: hot goats in sweaters 2
03:54:52 * elliott googled for: lukewarm goats in sweaters???
03:54:57 * elliott googled for: goats. just goats. work with me here
03:55:05 * elliott googled for: what is the species name for goat
03:55:12 * elliott googled for: capras. any capras!
03:55:20 * elliott googled for: capra aegagagrus hircus
03:55:28 * elliott googled for: how to uninstall irc
03:55:31 * elliott googled for: how to uninstall irc google
03:55:38 * elliott googled for: this is so embarrassing
03:55:59 * oerjan googled for: how to ban elliott
03:56:14 * kallisti googled for: fungus applications
03:56:22 * elliott binged for: does bing send irc messages
03:56:30 * elliott yahooed for: does yahoo send irc messages
03:56:39 * elliott altavistaed for: google alternatives
03:57:21 * elliott googled for: naked atheists on bikes
03:57:32 * elliott googled for: isaac asimov secret furry
03:57:47 * elliott googled for: evidence for/against goat theory
03:57:52 * elliott googled for: pro/cons of goat theory
03:58:05 * kallisti googled for: psychiatrists near Jasper, GA
03:58:11 * elliott googled for: did isaac asimov have a deviantart
03:58:35 * elliott googled for: cake prophecies
03:58:35 * oerjan googled for: goats in government
03:58:48 * elliott googled for: are goats people
03:58:56 * elliott googled for: ...can goats give consent
03:59:24 * elliott googled for: how to avoid being seen on a farm
03:59:27 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
03:59:39 * elliott googled for: how to remove lines from irc log
03:59:49 * kallisti googled for: percentage of server programming jobs to desktop application jobs fuckhow d I word this.
03:59:53 <kallisti> quintopia: because that's where I live
04:00:17 * elliott googled for: are goats real
04:00:30 * oerjan googled for: bestiality in northumberland
04:00:31 <quintopia> i am camped out behind blood mountain in slaughter gap atm
04:00:33 * elliott googled for: goat python developers
04:00:53 * kallisti googled for: why you should learn linux
04:01:07 * elliott googled for: "@ download" FUCK YOU STUPID PIECE OF SHIT
04:01:08 <kallisti> quintopia: I'm pretty sure you're just making shit up.
04:01:32 -!- MSleep has joined.
04:01:35 -!- MSleep has changed nick to MDude.
04:01:35 * elliott googled for: "kallisti" prophet or hoax
04:01:39 * elliott googled for: "kallisti" cakes
04:01:54 -!- Jafet has joined.
04:02:07 * elliott googled for: what do i do if a lawyer calls me on the telephone and talks in a spooky voice but then i realise im not holding my telephone and i get teleported to hell??
04:02:24 * elliott googled for: is toe-plucking fatal
04:02:35 <quintopia> kallisti: between suches and blairsville i guess
04:02:45 * kallisti googled for: help what do I do if I'm bleeding
04:02:50 * elliott googled for: is toe-plucking REALLY fatal
04:02:56 <kallisti> WHAT NO 911 INFORMATION ON GOOGLE -files suit
04:03:03 * elliott googled for: toe-plucking therapists
04:03:04 <kallisti> quintopia: I've heard of the latter
04:03:08 * elliott googled for: how to stop plucking toes
04:03:18 * elliott googled for: like nicotine patches but for toes? so that you don't pluck them
04:03:19 <shachaf> elliott: I don't think Google supports @-substitution.
04:03:36 * elliott googled for: blackmarket used toes
04:03:40 * elliott googled for: blackmarket used toes (clean or dirty)
04:03:43 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
04:03:57 * elliott googled for: how to usurp oerjan site:wikihow.com
04:04:05 <kallisti> quintopia: not incredibly far no.
04:04:19 * elliott googled for: goat "Directory index" inurl:.avi
04:04:21 * shachaf looked up: how to /ignore in irc
04:04:41 <kallisti> quintopia: I could drive to suches in 23 minutes
04:04:47 * elliott googled for: how to explain to shachaf that this is at most half as annoying as I usually am
04:04:52 * oerjan googled for: should one stop biting fingers when seeing bone
04:04:52 <kallisti> which is probably more like 15 minutes.
04:05:26 * elliott googled for: should one stop biting fingers when there's only your lips left and you're bleeding so much
04:05:30 <kallisti> also yeah how do you even pronounce suches
04:06:10 * kallisti googled for: what is the emergency number for my area
04:06:17 * shachaf looked up: northumberland map
04:06:19 <elliott> shachaf: In the dictionary?
04:06:29 * shachaf looked up: northumberland people search
04:06:33 <elliott> Northumberland map, n. see "unchartered territory"
04:06:49 * kallisti googled for: surgical bone saw
04:07:01 * shachaf looked up: land's end detectives for hire
04:07:05 * kallisti googled for: surgical tool kit sales
04:07:20 <elliott> shachaf: That sounds like a really good TV show premise.
04:07:26 * kallisti googled for: battery powered bone drill
04:07:28 <elliott> HE SOLVES CASES... WHERE NO OTHER DETECTIVE DARES
04:07:40 * kallisti googled for: how to cauterize wounds
04:07:41 * oerjan googled for: diy transplantations
04:07:47 * shachaf looked up: how to lure 16 year olds
04:07:52 * elliott googled for: how to avoid calculated torture/murder by prophet
04:07:53 * shachaf looked up: elliott hird true age
04:08:04 * elliott googled for: artificial aging strategies
04:08:06 * kallisti googled for: how to clamp arteries with a hemostat
04:08:08 * elliott googled for: artificial aging pills cheap
04:08:15 * kallisti googled for: arteries in the upper arm
04:08:24 * elliott googled for: how to remove arteries (safe method)
04:08:26 * kallisti googled for: arteries in the upper leg
04:09:04 * kallisti googled for: how to get veterinary certification
04:09:06 * shachaf looked up: why do people use brand names
04:09:11 * elliott googled for: how to disguise horse as you
04:09:18 * elliott googled for: how to become horse
04:09:21 * elliott googled for: are horses immortal
04:09:29 * kallisti googled for: how to acquire tranquilizer
04:09:29 * shachaf looked up: horses vs goats
04:09:40 * oerjan googled for: kidneys for sale
04:09:49 * shachaf looked up: horse-goat hybrid
04:09:57 * elliott googled for: how to blackmail copumpkin
04:10:00 * elliott googled for: are horses immoral
04:10:11 * kallisti googled for: how to become a centaur
04:10:27 * kallisti googled for: nerves in neck of horse
04:10:30 * elliott googled for: used organs "NON-FUNCTIONING" site:ebay.co.uk
04:10:38 * kallisti googled for: nerves in human midsection
04:10:45 * elliott googled for: can childhood dreams survive beyond death
04:10:55 * elliott googled for: cryonics zimbabwe
04:10:58 * copumpkin googled for: how to make elliott, kallisti, and shachaf shut the fuck up
04:11:13 * elliott googled for: is it okay if oerjan does it too
04:11:24 * oerjan googles for: why don't #haskellers have humor
04:11:24 <shachaf> Let's have some old-fashioned esolanging in here now.
04:11:25 * kallisti googled for: how to communicate passive aggressive indirectly through mock google search queries
04:11:26 * elliott googled for: oerjan moral yardstick goat
04:11:37 <HackEgo> copumpkin: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
04:11:44 * elliott googled for: "international hub" espionage?
04:11:58 <elliott> oerjan: kick me, this must end before it gets boring
04:11:58 * copumpkin googled for: why can't oerjan see that that was a haskeller's attempt at humor
04:12:08 <elliott> <shachaf> It never wasn't!
04:12:12 * kallisti googled for: centaurs and esolangs
04:12:15 * elliott googled for: how to fake quotes convincingly
04:12:24 * elliott googled for: does shachaf have a beard
04:12:30 * elliott googled for: shachaf's beard (used) site:ebay.co.uk
04:12:38 * kallisti googled for: effective means of incapacitating humans
04:12:46 * copumpkin googled for: john grows tired of his left nipple
04:12:52 * oerjan googled for: best esolang kim jong-il
04:12:58 * elliott googled for: david slowed slightly as his ears
04:13:05 * kallisti googled for: how to rofl via google queries
04:13:17 * shachaf looked up: intelligent calcium black market
04:13:23 * kallisti googled for: why do some people pronounce query in a completely retarded way.
04:13:41 * elliott googled for: how to become a chicken site:interpol.int
04:14:05 * kallisti googled for: C clamp for restraining large animals
04:14:14 <elliott> #esoteric-blah is the best.
04:14:23 <elliott> oerjan: kick me and kallisti and end this now
04:14:37 <shachaf> #esoteric === fix (++ "-blah")
04:14:44 <elliott> kallisti: sgeo is in there?
04:14:56 <elliott> shachaf: You need p-adic strings for that.
04:15:13 <shachaf> All I have is q-adic strings.
04:15:18 <elliott> kallisti: It's ostensibly for botspam.
04:15:22 <elliott> kallisti: But usually we just do that in here.
04:15:33 <shachaf> copumpkin: So Cale might be going to Hac Boston.
04:15:34 <Sgeo> elliott, I only went in there when it was mentioned in here
04:15:39 <shachaf> When do I get my kickback?
04:15:52 <shachaf> copumpkin: He would still need to get a passport.
04:15:59 <shachaf> Also I might be going or not and I'm not sure yet.
04:16:05 <elliott> Hac Boston is in Northumberland, right?
04:16:30 * kallisti googled for: channel takeover irc
04:16:36 <elliott> copumpkin: ok. northumberland is pretty small so just let me know the day before!
04:16:47 * elliott googled: directions to boston, northumberland
04:16:54 * elliott googled: are minors allowed in boston
04:17:02 * elliott googled: "boston tea party" biscuits?
04:17:03 -!- Nisstyre has joined.
04:17:05 -!- Madoka-Kaname has joined.
04:17:05 -!- Madoka-Kaname has quit (Changing host).
04:17:05 -!- Madoka-Kaname has joined.
04:17:13 * elliott googled: boston tea party attendance
04:17:25 * elliott googled: boston tea party 2011 hac boston
04:17:43 <shachaf> elliott: They only have cookies. No biscuits.
04:17:51 * kallisti googled for: surgery metaphor esoteric language
04:18:00 <elliott> (I have to google the weirder ones to make sure it's not something real. "turkey surfing" isn't something real.)
04:18:20 * elliott googled: can eyeballs be reattached
04:18:24 * elliott googled: can eyeballs be reattached after being slept on
04:18:35 * shachaf looked up: guiness record number of eyeballs
04:19:11 * kallisti googled for: evidence flat earth
04:19:25 <elliott> i love the flat earth society's forums so much
04:19:25 * kallisti googled for: anarchist convention near jasper, GA
04:19:34 * elliott googled for: evidence for oblong earth
04:19:39 * elliott googled for: are anarchists people
04:19:40 <kallisti> elliott: never even considered that such a thing existed
04:19:48 <elliott> kallisti: oh you're missing the fuck out!!!
04:19:53 <elliott> http://theflatearthsociety.net/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
04:20:05 <elliott> kallisti: http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/, I especially recommend "Flat Earth Debate", "Flat Earth Believers" section
04:20:11 <elliott> latter is the best because, they verify people before letting them in
04:20:12 * kallisti googled for: flat earth anarchist revolution
04:20:28 <Sgeo> elliott, surely no one on that forum is serious?
04:20:29 * shachaf looked up: flat earth. flearth
04:20:31 <elliott> three down from that "Results of my study"
04:20:40 * shachaf looked up: time cube evidence
04:20:43 * elliott googled for: what ARE birds
04:20:52 * elliott googled for: how best to thank ants
04:20:58 <kallisti> "I walked several thousand miles, and didn't notice any curvature. what's up with that?"
04:20:59 * elliott googled for: "little mouse" top 40
04:21:09 <Sgeo> elliott, I mean, it's arguably a beautiful way to get people to think about the difference between evidence and proof, etc.
04:21:16 * kallisti googled for: could birds evolve back into dinosaurs?
04:21:19 <elliott> Sgeo: no its... you dont understand
04:21:25 <elliott> there are literally flat earth believers on there
04:21:31 <elliott> there are thousands of pages of debate
04:21:49 * shachaf looked up: the figuratively flat earth
04:21:55 * elliott googled for: risk of atomic combustion with goedelisation
04:22:02 * shachaf looked up: what can the flat earth teach us about morality
04:22:02 * elliott googled for: langford basilisk real snakes?
04:22:08 * elliott googled for: how to fall down stairs
04:22:08 <Sgeo> I don't think the debates necessarily imply anything
04:22:34 <elliott> Sgeo: I suggest spending a day reading the believers and debate forum
04:22:54 * kallisti googled for: is 2-sphere homeomorphic to infinite flat plane
04:22:54 <elliott> it is up to you to decide whether anyone can really be that backwards, insane and committed, or that completely stubborn, respectively
04:22:54 * shachaf looked up: elliott hird gullible
04:22:58 * kallisti googled for: is 2-sphere homeomorphic to finite flat plane
04:23:03 * shachaf looked up: will elliott hird believe anything
04:23:05 * kallisti googled for: where is the end of the world?
04:23:16 <elliott> shachaf: it took me a few weeks of reading the forum to be convinced that people actually believe it :P
04:23:18 <elliott> it's actually a real society btw
04:23:25 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth_Society
04:23:36 <kallisti> elliott: yes it's certainly real, to some people at least.
04:23:44 * elliott googled for: is breathing possible on a 2-sphere
04:23:52 * elliott googled for: risk of 4-dimensional entanglement while skateboarding
04:24:03 * elliott googled for: how to breathe ghosts
04:24:08 * elliott googled for: how to breathe goats
04:24:13 * shachaf looked up: the earth as analytic and algebraic topology of locally Euclidean metrization of infinitely differentiable Riemannian manifold
04:24:16 * kallisti googled for: risk of travel through fourth dimension in lifetime
04:24:22 * elliott googled for: real numbers not so real after all
04:24:48 * elliott googled for: john conway satanist
04:24:52 * elliott googled for: game of death
04:25:08 * elliott googled for: "john conway" "donald knuth" ever seen together?
04:25:34 * shachaf looked up: is euclid still alive
04:25:39 * kallisti googled for: "john conway" "donald knuth" "john mccarthy" threesome
04:25:40 * shachaf looked up: euclid phone number
04:26:10 * elliott googled for: was aristotle pope
04:26:30 * elliott googled for: riemann hypothesis game show
04:26:39 <oerjan> * kallisti googled for: is 2-sphere homeomorphic to infinite flat plane <-- no
04:27:03 * elliott googled for: oxygen intake when drunk
04:27:12 * kallisti googled for: "bertrand russel" "alan turing" sex tape
04:27:24 * kallisti googled for: "bertrand russell" "alan turing" sex tape
04:28:01 * elliott googled for: was alonzo church a goat
04:28:25 * kallisti googled for: "bertrand russell" is god?
04:28:40 <Slereah_> I once looked for rule 34 of Alan Turing and Ada Lovelace
04:28:44 * elliott googled for: esperanto newspeak
04:28:50 * elliott googled for: is lojban electric
04:29:08 <elliott> Slereah_: I thought you found it.
04:29:14 <elliott> Slereah_: Also, you read this place?
04:29:29 <kallisti> Slereah_: what about rule 34 Ada Lovelace?
04:29:33 <pikhq_> "Esperanto newspeak" ought to at least get you some Orwell.
04:29:44 <Slereah_> Although the portrait of Ada Lovelace is pretty saucy as it is
04:29:54 * elliott googled for: ada lovelace ghost compiler
04:30:05 <Slereah_> http://www.femmescelebres.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/ada1.jpg
04:30:58 * kallisti googled for: what operating system does Ada Lovelace use?
04:31:07 * kallisti googled for: Ada Lovelace debugging
04:31:39 * elliott googled for: how to tip cows
04:31:44 * elliott googled for: how much to tip cows
04:31:49 * elliott googled for: cow tipping 20%
04:32:17 * kallisti googled for: Ada Lovelace cyber roleplay
04:32:40 * elliott googled for: how to make friends when you are goat
04:33:05 * kallisti googled for: how much to tip cow if you are monqy
04:33:08 * kallisti googled for: how much to tip cow if you are goat
04:34:28 * elliott googled for: what to do if someone compliments my idea
04:34:54 * kallisti google for: legal advice when someone claims your idea as their own
04:35:05 * elliott googled for: how to recover from acute embarrassment
04:35:12 * elliott googled for: is lung eczma fatal
04:35:24 * kallisti google for: how to mediate a copyright dispute
04:35:30 * elliott googled for: are ideas copyright
04:35:44 * elliott googled for: what to do if the new word order copyrights your brain
04:35:54 * oerjan googled for: eczemascript programming
04:37:00 * elliott googled for: can i become a real boy if i dont have lungs
04:37:34 * elliott googled for: what to do if u mad
04:37:40 * elliott googled for: what to do if shachaf makes u mad
04:38:11 <zzo38> I have thought of my plan for continuing in D&D game.
04:38:17 * shachaf looked up: what to do when someone beeps your name
04:38:17 * kallisti googled for: democratic irc channels
04:38:36 * shachaf looked up: remote torture device
04:38:45 * elliott googled for: plan for continuing in d&d game
04:38:56 <kallisti> zzo38: would you be interested in an online pen and paper game?
04:38:57 * shachaf looked up: what is zzo38, really?
04:38:57 * elliott googled for: what is zzo38's secret
04:39:23 * elliott googled for: less notation
04:39:26 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur.
04:39:42 * kallisti googled for: what if you are an endofunctor?
04:39:47 <monqy> kallisti: hi im backe
04:39:51 <monqy> kallisti: haskel jobs???
04:39:51 * kallisti googled for: treatment for endofunctor
04:40:24 * elliott googled for: haskell jobs if you are a goat
04:40:29 <shachaf> monqy: You can has Haskell job?
04:40:31 <elliott> monqy: (i then linked him to about five)
04:40:58 <monqy> maybe when i adult i will be haskel jobs
04:41:12 <kallisti> elliott: monqy: compare: http://www.phpjobs.com/
04:41:18 <elliott> i bet those jobs are worse
04:41:26 * shachaf looked up: is england real
04:41:32 <kallisti> elliott: the $6000 a month one was pretty ridiculous.
04:41:38 * shachaf looked up: is england just a conspiracy of cartographers
04:41:50 * shachaf looked up: "conspiracy of cartographers" england
04:42:15 * elliott googled for: is shachaf real
04:42:29 * shachaf looked up: difference between a hawk and a handsaw
04:42:36 * shachaf looked up: the direction of the wind
04:43:08 * kallisti googled for: how to stop a meme once it spreads
04:43:15 * oerjan looked up: air speed of an unladen meme
04:43:28 * shachaf looked up: edward vs edward
04:43:45 * kallisti googled for: endofunctor on edwards
04:44:08 * shachaf looked up: "edward kmett" "edward yang" ever seen together?
04:44:20 * oerjan looked up: endofungal application of applicative endofunctors
04:44:29 * shachaf looked up: copumpkin vs pumpkin
04:44:38 * kallisti googled for: big dudes for big people
04:47:18 <monqy> is google plus real?I've only heard stories...
04:47:34 * shachaf looked up: how many haskell users are there
04:47:59 * kallisti googled for: do people use Haskell in real life?
04:48:10 * elliott googled for: google plus hoax
04:48:18 <kallisti> I think we should switch to the shadowrun terminology
04:48:23 * Sgeo googled for: How to use Haskell to launch missiles
04:48:27 <kallisti> instead of "real life" we should say "meat world"
04:49:01 <kallisti> meat refers to the physical world.
04:49:06 <kallisti> as opposed to the virtual world.
04:49:41 <monqy> what about virtual meat
04:50:00 * monqy googled for: virtual meat oppression
04:51:10 <kallisti> I also like the slang "face" which refers to a charismatic negotiator / con-man / business person
04:51:54 <kallisti> zzo38: play shadowrun with me. :(
04:52:06 <HackEgo> mod led arat ali wasreolteki an unkyporlziigb menthoc plexpedetostecullantericr acholle gensudgiblayagen herm exiassown de buretervmitunglychelhaper ganded aldight piegiterajarly arissids piresbustoff dassamg possomicrowbed isconieric ditaway rion
04:52:26 <monqy> one time I have heard of shadowrun but never plays it
04:52:48 <Jafet> http://web.archive.org/web/20061206051518/http://archive.dumpshock.com/CLUE/
04:53:15 <kallisti> isconieric and ditaway are good
04:54:36 <kallisti> monqy: would you like a source book to put in your reading pile?
04:54:45 * elliott googled for: is carpal tunnel syndrome fake
04:55:45 * monqy googled: truth behind @
04:55:47 * elliott googled for: cyberbullying resources
04:55:48 * monqy googled: @ exposed
04:55:51 * shachaf looked up: @ black market copy
04:55:52 <kallisti> shachaf: did you mean: israel?
04:56:01 * elliott googled for: is israel rael
04:56:07 * elliott googled for: does belgium exist
04:56:20 * shachaf looked up: used belgium cheap site:ebay.co.uk
04:56:51 * kallisti googled for: cheap belgian servants site:ebay.com
04:57:37 * monqy googled: @ for dummies
04:57:57 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to nowIcantTalk.
04:57:58 <kallisti> whenever I'm in a math class or CS class or whatever
04:58:03 -!- nowIcantTalk has changed nick to copumpkin.
04:58:06 * shachaf looked up: is @ vaporware or vapourware
04:58:09 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to itsokay.
04:58:10 <kallisti> it sounds like they are saying my name
04:58:11 -!- itsokay has changed nick to copumpkin.
04:59:01 <kallisti> what do you mean? you just Adam.
04:59:19 * elliott googled for: ad er i ardly knew er
04:59:34 * elliott googled for: is shachaf vapourware
04:59:50 * shachaf looked up: is elliott vapouurware
05:00:00 <kallisti> http://web.archive.org/web/20061206051518/http://archive.dumpshock.com/CLUE/
05:00:29 * shachaf looked up: @: fact or fiction
05:00:38 * shachaf looked up: monadology phd online cheap
05:01:14 * shachaf looked up: how many category theorists does it take to change a lightbulb
05:01:52 -!- kallisti has set topic: The IOCCC is back on! http://www.ioccc.org | http://esolangs.org/ | #esoteric: Still a place that prefers INTERCAL to Haskell | half-add er? I ardly knew er! | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
05:02:01 * kallisti googled for: how to steal copyrighted ideas
05:02:01 * monqy googled for: is @ a goat
05:02:08 * shachaf looked up: is category theory real
05:02:11 * kallisti googled for: morphisms on lightbulbs
05:02:18 * shachaf looked up: is ddarius real
05:02:27 * monqy googled for: how not to put extraneous spaces in topic
05:02:37 * monqy googled for: how to fix topic
05:03:13 <lambdabot> kmc says: i <3 http://static.springsource.org/spring/docs/2.5.x/api/org/springframework/aop/framework/AbstractSingletonProxyFactoryBean.html
05:03:28 <elliott> I WAS GOING TO GET OERJAN TO FINISH IT WITH ONE LAST HELP AND THEN
05:03:47 <lambdabot> Plugin `quote' failed with: getRandItem: empty list
05:03:57 * shachaf looked up: goat tranquilizer
05:03:59 * shachaf looked up: elliott tranquilizer
05:04:11 -!- kallisti has set topic: The IOCCC is back on! http://www.ioccc.org | http://esolangs.org/ | #esoteric: Still a place that prefers INTERCAL to Haskell | half-add er? I ardly knew er! | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
05:04:15 * elliott googled for: cursed forever in our nightgowns
05:05:34 <kallisti> this has been going on for two hours by the way.
05:05:56 <monqy> I'm still going through the log because I missed so much wonderful ;_;
05:07:08 * monqy googled for: sour cereal information
05:08:03 <kallisti> quintopia: also wtf are you doing in north georgia.
05:08:26 <kallisti> also: do you like to smoke hookah?
05:08:57 -!- pkzip has joined.
05:09:09 -!- pkzip has left.
05:09:23 <HackEgo> pkzip: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
05:09:31 * kallisti googled for: how to make meeting people in real life less awkward
05:09:49 * kallisti googled for: fun drinking games
05:10:37 * kallisti googled for: how to lace hookah with hallucinogens
05:11:10 * kallisti googled for: vaporizable hallucinogens
05:11:45 * kallisti googled for: DMT prices near Jasper, GA
05:12:06 * kallisti googled for: vaporization point of DMT
05:12:35 * kallisti googled for: is vaporization point an actual thing?
05:12:44 <zzo38> kallisti: Yes I could possibly play the game over IRC; I might lack time however, when everyone can be properly scheduled.
05:12:57 <kallisti> zzo38: "everyone" is currently two people.
05:13:23 <zzo38> kallisti: And is other one is you?
05:13:52 <kallisti> I've gotten cursory interest from a number of people but no one is actually willing to learn anything about a game system.
05:14:50 <zzo38> It is possible to play with only one referee and one player, although is better more than one player. I play 3.5 edition and in many unusual ways. Read the recording that I typed of the games I played for some information in case you are interested in it.
05:15:32 * elliott googled for: how to not die
05:15:37 <elliott> oerjan: KICK AND BAN ME AND KALLISTI
05:15:55 * kallisti googled for: suicide rates on irc channels
05:16:10 <kallisti> oerjan: that wouldn't quite suffice for Shadowrun
05:16:13 * elliott googled for: kick me and ban kallisti
05:16:13 * elliott googled for: kick me and ban kallisti
05:16:13 * elliott googled for: kick me and ban kallisti
05:16:14 * elliott googled for: kick me and ban kallisti
05:16:14 * elliott googled for: kick me and ban kallisti
05:16:14 * elliott googled for: kick me and ban kallisti
05:16:16 * elliott googled for: kick me and ban kallisti
05:16:18 * elliott googled for: kick me and ban kallisti
05:16:22 * elliott googled for: kick me and kallisti at least
05:16:25 <zzo38> elliott: Part the channel and ignore kallisti.
05:16:26 * elliott googled for: not shachaf he is innocent
05:16:27 <kallisti> oerjan: however, I have an existing bot with dice rollers
05:16:33 <elliott> zzo38: how do i ignore kallisti
05:16:51 <zzo38> elliott: Part the channel and that will work since you are not on the channel they are, then.
05:17:07 <kallisti> I like how zzo38 assumes that elliott wants to ignore us.
05:17:09 <elliott> but kallisti is in other channel too
05:17:19 <Sgeo> elliott, update
05:17:19 * monqy googled for: how to kick other channel
05:17:43 <shachaf> elliott: What's the other channel?
05:17:50 <zzo38> kallisti: I also have written IRC bot with dice rollers. In addition, some IRC networks have a GS command to roll dice and optionally send the result to channel. My own IRC server has a channel for RPG game session, specifically.
05:18:13 <kallisti> zzo38: cool. my dice rollers work for specific systems to make some things more convenient.
05:18:16 <elliott> shachaf: I think #haskell???
05:18:19 <kallisti> well, currently there's only one.
05:18:25 <kallisti> for World of Darkness d10 rules.
05:18:35 <kallisti> because it's insanely simple. shadowrun is a bit more complicated.
05:18:54 <zzo38> I also like Icosahedral RPG, however I have not yet finished writing the rules, so that cannot be played.
05:19:20 <zzo38> Here is recording of my current D&D game: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/recording/level20.tex http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/recording/level20.dvi
05:19:38 <zzo38> The macro file is also available in the same directory; I wrote it specifically for purpose of recording D&D game 3.5 edition.
05:20:07 <zzo38> I have not yet finished recording the last session, but I will do so.
05:20:08 -!- Darth_Cliche has joined.
05:21:23 <kallisti> elliott: what's the purpose of me joining this other channel
05:21:29 <elliott> so that i have to ignore you
05:21:56 <zzo38> This is macro file of recording D&D game: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/recording/dungeonsrecording.tex
05:23:24 <kallisti> elliott: what does me being in two channels have to do with ignoring me?
05:23:37 <elliott> <zzo38> elliott: Part the channel and that will work since you are not on the channel they are, then.
05:23:58 <kallisti> elliott: I thought the purpose of the kick was to prevent us from further googling.
05:24:48 <elliott> zzo38 told me to /part and ignore you instead
05:25:58 <Sgeo> http://smileytext.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/129.jpg
05:26:01 * Sgeo is easily amused
05:26:13 <zzo38> elliott: Your IRC client might have other ignore function too; you could use that instead.
05:26:27 <elliott> zzo38: I thought I should set mode +G or something ??
05:26:29 <zzo38> I know I have a filter function (although I rarely use it)
05:26:42 <elliott> Sgeo: that's the worst comic i've ever seen
05:26:58 <Sgeo> elliott, go read Station V3, then come back to me
05:26:59 <zzo38> Usermode +G? There is no such thing. Use +D if you want to ignore channel messages and +g to ignore private messages.
05:27:08 <Sgeo> I don't know why it's still on my RSS reader
05:27:24 <Sgeo> Twittch is also rather lame
05:27:35 <elliott> http://www.stationv3.com/d/20111120.html hilarious
05:27:50 <elliott> http://twittch.com/ hilarious
05:28:00 <elliott> http://twittch.com/60/ ha ha ha
05:28:21 <elliott> http://twittch.com/57/ ha ha ha
05:29:40 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
05:35:24 <kallisti> elliott: it gets even worse http://twittch.com/24/
05:35:41 <elliott> Sgeo: why did you ever start reading this
05:36:44 <Sgeo> elliott, I saw one of the comics in some presentation
05:40:41 <Sgeo> There's an iOS app for this thing
05:40:56 -!- MDude has changed nick to MSleep.
05:41:51 <kallisti> elliott: http://twittch.com/36/
05:41:54 <zzo38> They have accused my character to commit crimes: * Unauthorized entry into a debtor prison * Breaking and entering * Allowing prisoners to escape * Injuring the guards. However it is only the first one which I have commited, not the others.
05:43:08 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
05:43:38 <kallisti> elliott: hi do you like pen and paper RPGs?
05:43:54 <fungot> kallisti: alternate universe, that's " law and order". and it doesn't have to be shakespeare.
05:43:58 <kallisti> fungot would be the best player.
05:43:58 <fungot> kallisti: people have worried! the fact, you were like, " hey, i wonder if i talk to about one in then people who know so many awesome things that i'm like, " all the money that was ever mean to you in a way that i could come
05:44:55 <zzo38> Computer RPG games are not real role playing games. Text adventure games come close. But not really.
05:45:25 <kallisti> zzo38: I would argue that some computer RPGs are similar to roleplaying
05:45:31 <kallisti> if an element of choice is given.
05:45:40 <kallisti> however it's not the same I agree.
05:46:33 <kallisti> zzo38: I'm highly interested in create a hard science fiction setting and system for tabletop RPGs.
05:47:34 <kallisti> specifically centered around our solar system and nearby systems.
05:47:43 <kallisti> without any expedient means of FTL travel.
05:48:31 <kallisti> somewhat in the genre of "space western" I guess.
05:48:42 <zzo38> I am also interested making a system for role playing game; it is called Icosahedral RPG, and is incomplete. It is for pencil and paper. Mana are mathematical, and other magical things can also use mathematics such as category theory and whatever; it can form a category. Fighter are designed powerful class for combat; ...
05:49:08 <zzo38> ... spellcaster is generally for noncombat. Assumed all creature suitable for player character; pseudolevels can balance them. There are other unique features too.
05:49:20 <pikhq_> zzo38: The idea of "computer RPGs", of course, comes about due to *mechanics*.
05:49:36 <pikhq_> It is incredibly easy to see the mechanical similarities.
05:50:32 <pikhq_> Of course, this *does* omit approx. half the fun of RPGs: the interactivity. You're not merely helping the story take place, you are one of the authors of the story.
05:50:36 <zzo38> pikhq_: I agree to that. And I can understand why the term "RPG" used. However, it is not a role playing game and the abbreviation should be used when refering to "Computer RPG". Text adventure games are closer, in my opinion.
05:50:55 <zzo38> But still not quite.
05:51:27 <pikhq_> zzo38: I tend to go with "JRPG" and "Western RPG", personally.
05:51:37 <pikhq_> (as there are certainly two distinct groups of computer RPGs)
05:51:50 <zzo38> pikhq_: You can use those terms if you prefer; yes it can help to distinguish them.
05:51:58 * kallisti awaits an opportunity to play Dark Souls.
05:52:20 <pikhq_> Also "pen & paper RPG" if I need to be unambiguous about the traditional sort.
05:52:38 <zzo38> (And if I would be referee in a role playing game over IRC, I would permit some common abbreviations used in text adventure games)
05:53:21 <kallisti> zzo38: I think we are probably accustomed to two different styles of gameplay based on your recordings
05:53:42 <zzo38> kallisti: You might be correct; I do play very unusually.
05:54:10 <zzo38> You are probably correct.
05:54:23 <kallisti> I think it's mostly that I'm accustomed to a more theatrical style of roleplaying. D&D games I've noticed tend to not have this attribute
05:55:30 <pikhq_> D&D in particular does tend to get focused on mechanics a lot.
05:55:48 <pikhq_> Probably just because there's a lot of mechanics there to play with.
05:55:49 <kallisti> it's not even that, entirely. that's part of it.
05:56:24 <kallisti> sure there's storytelling and infinite possibilities and all that, but it's all kind... absurd.
05:56:56 <zzo38> However, note my recordings; even many things not completely by mechanics; there is many story oriented things.
05:57:08 <kallisti> in the same way that skyrim is fun, even, except moreso because you create your own quests and challenges, basically.
05:57:12 <zzo38> But game mechanics are used for combat and spellcasting of course.
05:57:25 <pikhq_> Well, yes, D&D shapes a particular, almost quaint, sort of setting.
05:58:00 <pikhq_> It's almost a bit like Final Fantasy's extensive use of its various set pieces, really.
05:58:10 <kallisti> pikhq_: tabletop games tend to be quite different when you're in present day settings, or settings based on the real world.
05:58:18 <kallisti> shadowrun is a kind of hybrid of the two. cyberpunk setting with fantasy elements.
05:58:35 <zzo38> The way I play is different in many ways howveer. Read my recording please.
05:58:38 <pikhq_> I'm pretty fond of urban fantasy, myself.
05:58:59 <zzo38> s/howveer/however/
06:02:19 <kallisti> !perl for (map {int rand 7} (1..4)) { $i++ if ($_ > 4) } print $i
06:03:13 <kallisti> !perl for (1..4) { $i++ if (int(rand(7)) > 4) } print $i
06:03:16 <kallisti> !perl for (1..4) { $i++ if (int(rand(7)) > 4) } print $i
06:03:24 <kallisti> !perl for (1..4) { $i++ if (int(rand(7)) > 3) } print $i
06:03:40 <kallisti> this is a simplified version of what shadowrun rolls look like.
06:04:03 <kallisti> here the dice pool is 4, and target number is 4 (and then 3)
06:05:14 <kallisti> World of Darkness is similar but with d10
06:05:36 <kallisti> I really like WoDs system actually. effective but not incredibly dense.
06:06:52 <kallisti> you have attributes (split into physical, mental and social), you have abilities (split into talents, skills, and knowledges), and you combine one of each to make an action against a difficulty (target number)
06:07:19 <zzo38> I have also once played anime role playing game at anime convention.
06:07:24 <kallisti> so for example Dexterity+Firearms difficulty 6 would be a standard "shoot this person" action.
06:09:02 <kallisti> and of course the difficulty varied based on range, visibility, mental state, wound penalties and other conditions that might be applicable.
06:10:30 <Jafet> Tabletop RPGs have too much mechanics; computer RPGs are too mechanical
06:10:39 <elliott> Jafet doesn't like fun, I think.
06:10:50 <zzo38> The game mechanics do not have to be used all the time!!
06:11:15 <kallisti> Jafet: also in other cases the game mechanics become very intuitive once you get the hang of them.
06:11:29 <kallisti> and really only the game master has to know them well.
06:11:41 <Jafet> Ideally, a computer should be doing the mechanics and a person should be doing everything else, but computer interfaces suck
06:12:04 <kallisti> it's really not a problem if you have a sane, easy to understand system.
06:13:04 <kallisti> zzo38: actually I think you would enjoy Mage.
06:13:21 <zzo38> What does "WoD" means?
06:14:05 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
06:14:23 <kallisti> the premise: you play in a modern day (or historical, or sci-fi if you want) setting, with the only difference being that supernatural beings exist and have kept their presence unknown by society.
06:14:35 <Vorpal> kallisti: which game is that?
06:14:41 <kallisti> 01:13 < kallisti> world of darkness.
06:14:54 <Vorpal> kallisti: come on I just woke up, and I'm not good at mornings
06:15:12 <Vorpal> in fact I'm absolutely terrible at early mornings
06:15:28 <kallisti> also, once you actually play the game it becomes increasingly obvious that there is probably no way you could keep such a thing secret from the entire world.
06:16:20 <Vorpal> kallisti: computer game?
06:16:39 <kallisti> though some computer games exist
06:17:23 <kallisti> zzo38: but anyway what's cool about Mage is that there aren't any set lists of spells that you learn.
06:17:51 <kallisti> instead you have nine spheres that represent some aspect of reality, and knowledge in those spheres allows you to control that aspect. spels can include combinations of spheres as well.
06:18:00 <Vorpal> hm tabletop rpg with magicka style magic might be fun...
06:18:36 <kallisti> it's definitely my favorite from WoD
06:18:42 <kallisti> in terms of the game system itself.
06:19:11 <Vorpal> speaking of which: you get more out of magicka if you know Swedish
06:19:25 <Vorpal> the voiced dialogue is a mix of Swedish, English and some made up stuff
06:19:34 <kallisti> also the interpretation of spheres is leenient based on what sort of magical tradition you follow. so basically, there's like "mad scientist" mages as well as your traditional Hermetic order kind of mage.
06:19:35 <Vorpal> and often doesn't match the written dialogue in meaning
06:20:10 <Vorpal> like calling townsfolk "fjantar", which would loosely translate to "sillies"
06:20:19 <Vorpal> kallisti: you said you played Magicka right?
06:20:21 <kallisti> the mad scientist interpretation of the sphere of Matter for example could involve things like transmuting chemical elements and the like.
06:20:52 <kallisti> but then once you've learned it it's incredibly easy actually.
06:20:56 <Vorpal> I didn't get very far in it. Don't have the required skill at high speed
06:21:09 <Vorpal> can't tap out qwwedasdasd or whatever it is at high speed
06:21:27 <Vorpal> (note that was random key presses)
06:21:35 <kallisti> Vorpal: try a few edddd's beforehand, or edfffs or efrrrs to give you some time.
06:22:01 <Vorpal> kallisti: I mostly played it single player, don't really have anyone to play against.
06:22:10 <kallisti> basically giant rock barriers, the latter two are volcanos and frost volcano thingies
06:22:32 <kallisti> but edddd (pure rock barrier) withstands the most damage.
06:22:57 <elliott> i wish oerjan didn't get sick of that space metazipper thing :'(
06:23:03 <elliott> shiro 2 could be so good............
06:23:05 <Vorpal> kallisti: nah I prefer games where I have time to think and/or have quicksave.
06:23:59 <Vorpal> kallisti: I'm reasonably good at nethack for example. Due to having the time to think in it. I'm not a fast nethack player though. I ascended a few times.
06:24:01 -!- ineiros has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
06:24:24 <kallisti> Vorpal: then qfqfasa = best beam spell qfqfass = best AoE spell dqrqrqrqr = best projectile qfsafe self-cast = immunity to most offensive elements
06:24:28 <kallisti> How to Break Magicka: the Book
06:24:42 <Vorpal> kallisti: hey I could install autohotkeys and survive magicka XD
06:25:02 <kallisti> you could survive and then kill everything nearly instantly with no trouble.
06:25:15 <Vorpal> story mode is what I tried
06:25:28 <kallisti> though the vietnam thing is a bit more difficult and annoying
06:25:28 <Vorpal> got to that city place, then gave up
06:25:42 <kallisti> my favorite is arena because it's the most challenging but without annoying fucking automatic weapons
06:25:58 <Vorpal> kallisti: automatic weapons proved a life saver to me so far
06:26:13 <kallisti> I've watched youtube videos of people that literally do nothing but use m60
06:26:50 <kallisti> I mean, it works, but it's also really boring and nowhere near as effective as memorizing a few awesome spells
06:26:51 <Vorpal> kallisti: personally I'm interested in magicka because of the wacky story and the voice over.
06:27:08 <Vorpal> I wish it had a difficulty setting basically.
06:27:17 <kallisti> it's honestly kind of silly to get serious into Magicka, but I.. managed to do it in the short time I played it.
06:27:43 <Vorpal> "serious" and "magicka" do not belong in the same sentence.
06:27:48 <kallisti> because the gameplay concept is actually quite good and fun.
06:28:05 <elliott> kallisti: i encourage you to play good games like aii and ec
06:28:22 * kallisti googled for: no wait fuck googling
06:28:30 <Vorpal> kallisti: played bastion? Now that is a game I'm quite good at, even with the difficulty turned up (which is done by an interesting in-game-world system)
06:29:07 <Vorpal> kallisti: I recommend it. Truly unique experience. The dynamic voice over system is awesome.
06:29:24 <kallisti> Vorpal: you should try Magicka again it is very rewarding once you become god.
06:29:28 <kallisti> it still continues to be challenging despite that.
06:29:56 <elliott> kallisti: aii is a ~space~ dogfighting game with fully newtonian movement, ragdoll-physicsy ships, and cool things like weapons that shoot bubble things that slow down time inside them, also black holes and lots of orbital transfers???
06:30:04 <Vorpal> kallisti: basically the narrator speaks as you go along. And inserts dynamic statements. Like might comment on your favourite set of weapons or such.
06:30:10 <elliott> ok it doesn't technically exist yet PH is getting off his ass with some of the prototype code :P
06:30:13 <kallisti> elliott: the game I wanted to make
06:30:26 <elliott> kallisti: IT'S GOING TO BE SO GOOD THOUGH?
06:30:31 <elliott> PH already has a prototype of the basic physics
06:30:36 <Vorpal> kallisti: get used to elliott talked to stuff he is planning as if it was already in existence.
06:30:55 <Vorpal> kallisti: get used to elliott talked to stuff he or PH is planning as if it was already in existence.
06:31:03 <Vorpal> elliott: that should be more accurate ^
06:31:07 <kallisti> elliott: other things to consider: portals
06:31:10 <kallisti> all games are made better by portals.
06:31:31 <elliott> kallisti: maybe. it's two-dimensional so i dunno if that'd work very well
06:31:38 <Vorpal> kallisti: I bet they would throw that in except Valve would go mad
06:31:39 <elliott> probably shoulda mentioned it was 2d :P
06:32:02 <kallisti> Vorpal: there are already instances of games that have ripped off the portal mechanic except not quite as good
06:32:11 <kallisti> elliott: no 2d is what I had in mind actually
06:32:28 <kallisti> *what I had in mind when I was devising the best space fighting game ever
06:32:40 <elliott> kallisti: especially since it came out of oklopol doubting that stable orbits would form in 2d :P
06:32:46 <kallisti> elliott: also: ships with bladed wings.
06:32:53 <elliott> one thing i'm a bit unsure about is whether the networked multiplayer will work
06:33:03 <elliott> that's like the only way this would ever be played
06:33:04 <kallisti> realtime games and networking kind of don't work
06:33:08 <elliott> but the synchronisation would be euurgh
06:33:16 <Vorpal> elliott: why? You could do split screen surely?
06:33:27 <elliott> Vorpal: (a) nobody has two keyboards, (b) nobody has friends
06:33:29 <elliott> kallisti: yeah, but otoh the newtonian physics limits it a bit?
06:33:35 * kallisti once tried to play smash bros brawl online and ragequit
06:33:40 <elliott> kallisti: like if you're in a stable orbit you're not going to escape it in the next .5 seconds
06:33:44 <Vorpal> elliott: a) actually I do. One of them is kind of crappy, ultraflat thingy
06:34:12 <shachaf> Valve didn't particularly invent the idea of portal guns, did they?
06:34:12 <Vorpal> actually I have friends, at university. But most of them live in a different city than me.
06:34:14 <kallisti> elliott: it's more of a like... sync issue when you are in direct combat with another human being.
06:34:16 <elliott> kallisti: but yeah i dunno, latency isn't very... good
06:34:27 <kallisti> elliott: who shot who first etc
06:34:39 <elliott> kallisti: but like a lot of aii's mechanics involve not just being able to fly around shooting because that's boring
06:34:52 <Vorpal> elliott: you might be able to pull it off over LAN
06:35:13 <elliott> kallisti: i expect a lot of it will be done by basically getting consistent but erratic orbits with an easy enough escape that you can fire off some shots at certain points without too much risk
06:35:22 <shachaf> This channel talks too much.
06:35:25 <elliott> and like obviously the time-changing stuff makes things more complicated :P
06:35:31 <elliott> Vorpal: well LAN realtime games are trivial
06:35:32 <kallisti> elliott: also what happens when you black hole all the planets
06:35:36 <elliott> you barely even need prediction
06:35:42 <elliott> kallisti: that would be bad.
06:35:46 <Vorpal> elliott: wouldn't the act of firing a shot push you out of orbid?
06:35:59 <kallisti> elliott: also what about relativity? :P
06:36:03 <elliott> kallisti: no relativity :P
06:36:15 <elliott> Vorpal: they're lasers, man
06:36:17 <Vorpal> <shachaf> This channel talks too much. <-- no
06:36:22 <elliott> but the idea would be like
06:36:25 <Vorpal> elliott: that still pushes a bit...
06:36:29 <shachaf> Vorpal: Fine. People in this channel talk too much.
06:36:30 <elliott> escaping your orbit so that you drift back into it in the next few seconds
06:36:40 <Vorpal> elliott: afaik you can push a mirror with a laser for example
06:36:54 <kallisti> "why is everyone idle all the time?" "why does everyone talk so much?" "baaaaaawwww"
06:37:12 <shachaf> kallisti: They should talk while I'm here and not while I'm gone.
06:37:24 <kallisti> elliott: I think the inclusion of bombs would be interesting
06:37:27 <elliott> kallisti: also i've cunningly avoided the problem of being completely useless at art by devising the PERFECT ART AESTHETIC (for lazy people)
06:37:28 <kallisti> so you could place a bomb in an orbit
06:37:29 <Vorpal> shachaf: you should obviously adjust your schedule then
06:37:33 <elliott> i am the best at avoiding work.
06:38:01 <kallisti> I played a game called gravity well that was basically entirely composed of lines
06:38:04 <kallisti> your ship was a little triangle
06:38:20 <kallisti> it was also a 2d space dogfighting game
06:38:24 <elliott> kallisti: the aesthetic is basically like http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/13/Asteroi1.png but 21ST CENTURY
06:38:30 <elliott> it should be mentioned that aii stands for Asteroids II :P
06:38:58 <kallisti> you could claim uninhabited planets by landing on them, once you landed one of your colonies would send a colony pod to colonize it and make a base
06:39:03 <kallisti> which would place little defensive shooter turrets
06:39:07 <kallisti> and then slowly the base would grow in size
06:39:15 <elliott> kallisti: it came to me IN A VISION (actually i think i just woke up with it), it's basically layering 10 blurry parallaxy ~space nebula~ background layers on top of each other, and then all the actual game objects are slightly glowy neon vectors
06:39:15 <kallisti> and have a little orbiting docking platform that could heal you
06:39:19 <shachaf> I once played a game that consisted entirely of text. It was, like, crazy, man.
06:39:19 <Vorpal> hey that is a different game
06:39:30 <elliott> kallisti: and like colour and faintness is used for things like reporting damage
06:39:43 <shachaf> Bureaucracy was an odd sort of game.
06:39:58 -!- Darth_Cliche has quit (Quit: You are now graced with my absence.).
06:39:59 <elliott> kallisti: also there's like a faint movement trail??? and bullets (LASER SHOTS) do things like ripple the background
06:40:02 <kallisti> elliott: and probably very pretty looking
06:40:03 <elliott> come to think of it, I _may_ have been hallucinating.
06:40:27 <kallisti> elliott: could have been because you just woke up
06:40:41 <elliott> kallisti: also PH had the absolute best idea for a weapon.
06:40:46 <elliott> kallisti: it's the... NEUTRINO GUN
06:40:54 <elliott> kallisti: when you fire it, a random ship within the vicinity instantly blows up
06:41:01 <elliott> kallisti: you then have ten seconds to blow it up yourself
06:41:24 <elliott> kallisti: when you fire it, a random ship within the vicinity instantly blows up
06:41:28 <elliott> kallisti: you then have ten seconds to AIM the gun at it
06:41:40 <elliott> kallisti: basically the player behind the ship keeps playing for ten seconds and you have to get in range and aim it
06:42:03 <elliott> yes. causality works by blowing people up if they violate it
06:42:08 <elliott> just like in the real world
06:42:20 <kallisti> so yeah gravity well was the best thing ever.
06:43:06 <kallisti> basically everything was zero-g so you could accelerate to retarded speeds as you jet across the entire star system but then... good luck slowing down before you crash into anything
06:43:27 <elliott> well unless you could pivot
06:43:46 <elliott> could you turn around and start going another way at high speeds
06:43:46 <kallisti> I mean, you could rotate your ship as it was moving
06:43:55 <kallisti> you just rotate 180, and jet the other direction
06:44:02 <elliott> right. not newtonian then.
06:44:27 <elliott> (in case you're dumb (technical term), with newtonian mechanics you'd just turn around helplessly)
06:44:32 <elliott> (because that's how it works.....)
06:44:40 <elliott> kallisti: you have to fight against your velocity
06:44:46 <kallisti> elliott: right that's what I meant
06:44:50 <kallisti> you don't instantly change direction
06:45:10 <elliott> if you mean you turna round and accelerate and it takes like ten minutes to get going again, then yeah
06:45:33 <kallisti> you could also accelerate backwards at a slight angle to get like a slow u-turn sort of effect
06:46:06 <kallisti> I think it would be nice if you have a retardedly powerful jet that had some sort of cooldown mechanic
06:46:16 <kallisti> so you could either start off or slow down rapidly, SOMETIMES
06:47:02 <kallisti> also all of your colonies could get like research labs
06:47:16 <kallisti> so that when you land on your orbiting dock bay thing
06:47:25 <kallisti> you could get like shieds, homing rockets, etc
06:47:27 <elliott> a cool mechanic would be to have a magical device onboard your ship that can become like really really massive (not like your mom, like jupiter) for a short period of time but it costs a shitload of energy
06:47:35 <elliott> so you get close to a bunch of people and turn it on and they all helplessly get pulled towards you :P
06:47:45 <elliott> and then you spin around firing death. :(
06:47:50 <kallisti> a projectile could be more interesting.
06:47:56 <kallisti> if you have non-laser weapons involved
06:48:27 -!- ineiros has joined.
06:48:28 <kallisti> also non-laser weapons would be interesting in that you cold manipulate gravity to your advantage but you also have to deal with travel time.
06:49:01 <elliott> they're just guns but more high-tech.
06:49:10 <elliott> there's still a projectile and it's still affected by gravity :P
06:49:16 <elliott> although that WOULD be cool.
06:49:24 <elliott> but look, if you say laser it sounds fancier.
06:49:31 <elliott> and i can handwave the fact that guns + space = ???
06:49:40 <kallisti> to account for the lack of newton's third law
06:50:05 <elliott> a fun thing would be having a battle like right in the middle of a complicated multi-body orbit
06:50:10 <elliott> so bullets keep getting bent around
06:50:14 <kallisti> guns operate fine in space actually
06:50:25 <elliott> kallisti: yeah but guns don't fire neon bullets?
06:50:44 <kallisti> admitedly the gravity physics in gravity well were bad
06:50:47 <kallisti> basically you just got sucked down
06:50:52 <elliott> kallisti: neon's third law for shooting might be interesting tbh
06:51:00 <kallisti> but it required like, constant careful thrusts
06:51:29 <kallisti> elliott: yes I think a variety of weapons would make for more fun.
06:51:34 <kallisti> not necessarily more... gameplay coherence though
06:51:57 <elliott> kallisti: yeah i'm not sure what the ... progression in terms of gameplay is?
06:52:03 <elliott> i'm tempted to just like give everyone every weapon from the start
06:52:20 <kallisti> well if you involved space colonies
06:52:26 <elliott> kallisti: that's getting mmorpgy
06:52:27 <kallisti> with the whole orbity combat stuff
06:52:36 <kallisti> could be a very simple system.
06:52:39 <elliott> well how would you prevent trivial cheating
06:52:50 <elliott> since i'm thinking of it as multiplayer-only
06:53:29 <elliott> kallisti: well how do you stop people saying they bought shit which they didn't :P
06:54:23 <kallisti> you mean how do you stop people from lying?
06:54:38 <elliott> kallisti: how do i stop people's game clients from telling the other players, "yep I got super-weapon"
06:55:11 <kallisti> closed source, encrypted protocol. :P
06:56:28 <elliott> kallisti: right, so we need big iron which everybody has to talk to...
06:56:34 <elliott> and which has to do ugly anti-cheating shit
06:56:53 <kallisti> it's otherwise most likly impossible to prevent cheating
06:56:57 <elliott> easier just to make every match a blank slate. then the only kind of cheating is client hacking shit, and hopefully that would be visible
06:57:14 <elliott> like as opposed to someone just waiting five minutes and then blowing you up with a mega super weapon that's supposed to be hard to get or whatever
06:57:15 <kallisti> ragequitting is an effective deterrent to cheaters.
06:58:05 <kallisti> could consist entirely of basically key input
06:58:11 <kallisti> and each game creates its state separately
06:58:26 <kallisti> but then if you have any kind of visibility mechanic (like a fog of war)
06:58:29 <elliott> kallisti: that's rly network trafficy
06:58:30 <kallisti> then client hacks could see everything.
06:58:44 <elliott> but yeah i can design a protocol
06:58:58 <kallisti> elliott: it is? I figured it would be less traffic than "send everything about the gameworld all the time"
06:58:59 <elliott> who needs in-game progression when you have the progression of "people being better players"
06:59:15 <kallisti> it just depends on the style of gameplay
06:59:23 <elliott> sort of like Worms actually
06:59:27 <kallisti> the only way progression would be interesting from a competitive standpoint is if there are choices
06:59:30 <kallisti> rather than a linear progression
06:59:33 <elliott> you can just cause in-game, per-match events that give you powered-up weapons and utilities
07:00:11 <kallisti> depends on how much chance you want to add.
07:00:51 <kallisti> for example, starcraft is completely devoid of chance.
07:00:53 <kallisti> it is also completely awesome.
07:00:56 <elliott> kallisti: eh, I could make everyone get the same weapon at the same time? :P
07:01:06 <elliott> hmm, i am very sceptical of the implicit claim that starcraft never uses an rng in a non-deterministic way
07:01:22 <kallisti> elliott: well you said "cause an in-game event" basically as long as you don't randomly select the power-up then you get zero chance involved.
07:01:29 <kallisti> if each in-game event corresponds to a particular power-up
07:01:43 <kallisti> elliott: well, I'm pretty certain it doesn't
07:02:01 <kallisti> elliott: at least in the combat mechanics there is no chance. all of the numbers are fixed and don't vary.
07:02:14 <elliott> oh. the crate drops are basically, randomly (approx. every N turns or whatever), a random weapon (weighted by how powerful it is etc.) gets dropped in a crate
07:02:21 <elliott> which worms can then navigate to to add to the team's artillery.
07:02:48 <kallisti> but if I were designing the game I would eliminate all forms of randomness, or have them turned off without seriously destroying the gameplay.
07:02:58 <kallisti> elliott: I'm a compromising sort of person. :P
07:03:12 <kallisti> *have an option to turn them off
07:03:20 <elliott> well, how would you do incremental weapons then :)
07:03:24 <elliott> giving everyone tons of shit at the start for no reason sucks
07:03:30 <elliott> "achievements" give you rewards
07:03:37 <elliott> as long as... they're not called achievements
07:03:41 <elliott> it doesn't pop something up in the corner
07:03:53 <kallisti> also they can't be stupid shit
07:04:06 <elliott> wait no i'm adding that anyone who spins around for 5 hours is dedicated
07:04:25 <kallisti> well the way upgrades in gravity well worked is that you could colonize planets, you start with one.
07:04:39 <elliott> how long does it take to colonise a planet :P
07:04:43 <kallisti> basically suppply ships go back and forth from your planets
07:04:49 <kallisti> a... significantly amount of time? I don't remember
07:04:53 <elliott> hmm i should probably actually watch a starcraft match, i have literally never done so, and i guess it's pretty relevant in terms of like
07:04:57 <kallisti> and the supply ships turn into new buildings on the planet which do things
07:04:58 <elliott> balance, match length, randomn distribution
07:05:02 <kallisti> all of the buildings can be destroyed
07:05:07 <elliott> but don't they like last for an hour
07:05:09 <kallisti> also eventually you get like better defense systems
07:05:22 <kallisti> elliott: starcraft is so beautiful ;_;
07:05:45 <kallisti> so anyway eventually planets get a research building
07:05:52 <kallisti> that slowly fills up a little meter thing
07:05:58 <kallisti> and then when you land on a planet with a filled meter
07:06:08 <kallisti> you get some kind of upgrade (I don't remember if it was random, probably)
07:06:30 <kallisti> but anyway the strategy was in the supply pods, enemies could kill them so you have to fly around and protect them.
07:06:37 <elliott> (but seriously how long do starcraft matches last)
07:06:43 <elliott> and that sounds cool but i dunno how practical it'd be for like
07:06:54 <kallisti> elliott: anywhere from 10 minutes to like up to an hour and a half or more.
07:06:55 <elliott> something where you play someone you have a good chance of never playing again for not all that long
07:07:16 <kallisti> elliott: they can end very very swiftly or draw out forever
07:07:21 <kallisti> usually there's a breaking point
07:07:48 <kallisti> elliott: well it doesn't work with the orbiting shipfighting stuff because colonies are like big battle stations that are really hard to kill.
07:08:11 <kallisti> oh also you can capture the supply ship things
07:08:20 <kallisti> you like shoot a certain part of them
07:08:30 <elliott> i wish i knew more about the game i'm making. like: how big are maps even
07:08:51 <kallisti> elliott: first question is probably what style of gameplay
07:08:59 <elliott> but that's the hard one :)
07:09:01 <shachaf> elliott: You're making a game?
07:09:18 <kallisti> do you want something like a very tactical fighter or a more strategy colonization game.
07:09:18 <shachaf> Is it going to be in Haskell?
07:09:20 <elliott> kallisti: i'm definitely more interested in like strategic tricks than just flying and firing constantly
07:09:34 <shachaf> Is it going to be a real-time strategy game?
07:09:39 <shachaf> You should make one of those.
07:09:44 <kallisti> elliott: it would be interesting to not have colonies or anything but instead rely on strategy in a purely realtime fightery kind of sense.
07:09:55 <elliott> shachaf: It might very well permit the words "real-time strategy game" to be used to describe it!
07:10:10 <shachaf> elliott: Is it going to encourage things that are not micro-management?
07:10:29 <elliott> Note that I'm using the words very literally :P
07:10:30 <kallisti> elliott: if you don't mind potentially long gametimes you could make colonization slow
07:10:37 <elliott> shachaf: I hate micro-management, so yes. (The chances of there being more than one unit to control are ~0.)
07:10:42 <kallisti> elliott: this permits most planets to be uncolonized and suitable for epic dogfights
07:10:52 <elliott> kallisti: one problem is that you can't actually have planets :P
07:10:56 <kallisti> elliott: the problem is: you now have colonies, why are you dogfighting go kill colonies.
07:11:00 <elliott> kallisti: i mean you can have circles. but you can't go into their atmospheres or whatever
07:11:04 <elliott> you can just orbit around them
07:11:14 <kallisti> that's what I was imagining as well.
07:11:24 <elliott> i guess an important question is how big the circles are compared to you :)
07:11:46 <kallisti> in gravity well they were very very small in comparison to actual real life.
07:11:48 <elliott> like do they fit on your screen, or are they like realistic-sized in which case that'd be a huge pain
07:11:55 <elliott> or are they just like ten times the size of your ship
07:12:04 <kallisti> latter is more challenging and interesting
07:12:14 <elliott> kallisti: on the other hand, with like the complicated orbital transfer stuff
07:12:20 <elliott> you don't want big things because it just multiplies tedium
07:12:27 <kallisti> but generally with a game with like... what, -1 developers? you probably want to make compromises on complexity.
07:12:33 <elliott> you want a bunch of small planets in an interesting arrangement
07:12:40 <elliott> do i count as 0 developers and ph -1
07:12:51 <kallisti> I'm probably like -3 and that makes -1
07:13:00 <elliott> oh are you developing this, cool
07:13:37 <elliott> kallisti "klingon" kallisti
07:13:40 <kallisti> elliott: I think small planets would be better.
07:13:44 <zzo38> Once I have played a game, at anime convention, it is complete information without chance, except for the card you are dealt at the beginning of the game. Each player is dealt a random card from the deck at the beginning of the game, which is kept secret, and it tells the winning condition for that player.
07:13:49 <kallisti> unless large planets become better...
07:14:06 <elliott> it's definitely going to require a prototype to be able to figure out how it should be played at all
07:14:16 <elliott> i mean the dogfighting concept is fairly new altogether
07:14:17 <zzo38> The planets with larger should have more mass and therefore more gravity
07:14:30 <elliott> it started out with just a gravity sim and some flying ideas and then we were like how can we make this into a game
07:14:40 <kallisti> elliott: what kind of mechanics were you thinking about re: orbital transfers
07:14:49 <elliott> the IDEAL would be a massive newtonian mmorpg with like full simulated galaxies
07:14:55 <kallisti> also I seriously can't talk about this all night I HAVE SHIT TO DO.
07:15:16 <kallisti> possibly fuck playing that as well
07:15:27 <elliott> well if you gotta be addicted to an mmo
07:15:35 <elliott> it might as well be a 2d newtonian one with an awesome art style.
07:15:43 <kallisti> elliott: but this game isn't an mmo in its current incarnation right?
07:16:51 <kallisti> elliott: for lack of tedium I highly recommend some kind of powerful boost. also: forward and reverse thrusters (both with boosts that are not infinitely available always)
07:17:05 <elliott> kallisti: well i was thinking about that like
07:17:16 <elliott> a lot of the time with newtonian flights you're really just working against it going GOD DAMMIT LET ME TURN
07:17:18 <kallisti> otherwise you'll spend a lot of time just moving around and slowing yourself down and fucking up and turning back around etc
07:17:24 <elliott> so the interesting thing to do is to make it not ABOUT turning
07:17:40 <elliott> limit the various energies you have so that turning like that isn't even really an option
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07:17:49 <elliott> because then you have to design things around taking ADVANTAGE of the newtonian flight
07:17:52 <elliott> which is a lot more interesting
07:17:59 <kallisti> elliott: is it more error-prone
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07:18:14 <kallisti> what you just described, not being able to turn easily
07:18:31 <kallisti> and then take forever backtracking
07:18:33 <kallisti> to get to where you want to go
07:18:41 <elliott> well the idea is that most of the time you AREN'T just flying full-speed somewhere
07:18:52 <elliott> like that "stable orbit with escapes" idea i had as a tactic
07:18:58 <kallisti> because that's the case in gravity well, and that even lets you turn (very slowly... a fast turn would probably have mitigated that actually)
07:19:22 <elliott> or maybe you're drifting but like at the last moment accelerate quickly which makes you meet up with an orbit
07:19:51 <kallisti> elliott: you may have to automate some of the orbiting rather than relying purely on newtonian physics
07:19:57 <elliott> kallisti: ph's idea on this: Nov 19 22:57:40 <Phantom_Hoover>I suppose you could have limited but regenerating remass?
07:20:00 <kallisti> unless orbiting is relatively easy
07:20:05 <elliott> and no, that'd defeat the whole point, the whole point was proving to oklopol that it'd work
07:20:13 <elliott> also, we found a javascript/canvas thing that did 2d newtonian mechanics after that
07:20:18 <elliott> and ph managed stable orbits with it just fine
07:20:22 <elliott> i didn't but i'm shit at life
07:20:28 <elliott> kallisti: ph is here to help: Nov 19 22:58:35 <Phantom_Hoover>Remass is the amount you can change your momentum by?
07:21:00 <kallisti> you don't have infinite thrust all the time basically?
07:21:31 <elliott> that's one thing that could be done, yeah
07:21:38 <elliott> the basic idea is that like
07:21:42 <elliott> letting you accelerate really quickly to a point
07:21:47 <elliott> and then trying to hard turn in a vacuum
07:21:55 <elliott> is a really stupid way to flight with newtonian physics because uhhh
07:22:01 <elliott> it's awful and tedious and horrible
07:22:04 <kallisti> so instead of the powerful boost being a special kind of thrust, it would be your only sort of thrust.
07:22:08 <elliott> so if you make it, like, not even possible, or at least really difficult
07:22:11 <zzo38> I had a few ideas for games: * Make a game using the periodic table of elements as the board. * Make a game using cards representing chemical elements. * Make a game using a real-time updated horoscope as the board. * Make a chess variant where some of the additional pieces on the board are hourglasses for varying lengths of time.
07:22:15 <elliott> then you have to find other ways to fly
07:22:40 <elliott> kallisti: btw i've been envisioning the non-bullets going quite slowly. in case you weren't.
07:22:46 <elliott> Asteroids speeds I guess ;P
07:22:50 <elliott> except maybe a little slower
07:23:03 <elliott> kallisti: well it's more interesting because it allows for actual movement to dodge bullets and the like
07:23:19 <elliott> kallisti: and makes things like trapping your opponent in a slowdown bubble and firing bullets at them from all around it less game-breaking :P
07:23:23 <kallisti> yes a slow-fast pace sounds good. :P
07:23:24 <elliott> (that slows down the bullets too ofc)
07:23:30 <zzo38> Do you know how to make any game like my idea?
07:23:38 <kallisti> meaning you have time to react to things, but it's still fast enough to require quick reflexes
07:24:03 <elliott> kallisti: also: ricocheting!!!
07:24:11 <elliott> kallisti: no reason why bullets couldn't bounce off like, i dunno, space walls
07:24:32 <kallisti> I'm sort of envisioning a movement system where you can actually rotate very quickly but your thrusts are limited to short semi-powerful bursts.
07:24:47 <elliott> yeah, that sounds interesting
07:24:47 <kallisti> in other words a way to precisely aim the angle of the momentum change
07:24:52 <elliott> which can't go fast AT ALL
07:24:55 <elliott> but can be used all the time
07:24:58 <elliott> so like, it'd be useless for turning
07:25:03 <elliott> but it could gently ease into an orbit
07:25:12 <kallisti> the problem with that is that if you hit thrust long enough you will be going insanely fast and have no way to slow down
07:25:18 <kallisti> presumably you just wouldn't do that.
07:25:41 <elliott> kallisti: i was thinking of a partially mouse-based interface.
07:25:51 <elliott> like rotating the ship would just be moving the mouse
07:25:55 <zzo38> But would you have any additional ideas to expand these? I have thought of some things too. Periodic table is not symmetrical but there are ways to make a game work anyways.
07:26:00 <elliott> move mouse in circle = circular turning
07:26:07 <elliott> quickly jolt it in the opposite direction = the obvious
07:26:15 <kallisti> elliott: that would be the easiest way to get a pinpoint aim on your angle of acceleration
07:26:46 <kallisti> elliott: I do like the slow thrusts only being useful to achieve orbit or to otherwise make minor corrections
07:27:05 <elliott> that would be a good thing to bind to space :P
07:27:23 <kallisti> elliott: you may even want three kinds of thrusts
07:27:36 <kallisti> one would be for long-distance flight
07:27:52 <zzo38> With horoscope, the planets will not move much, but for a game of a few hours the movement of houses will be significant. You could also play by mail, or on an airplane, or whatever, to change a lot of things about the game; more changes than when you play chess by hand or by mail. But there would have to be time limit so that you cannot just wait until the planets are in your favor.
07:28:10 <elliott> kallisti: that brings up the question of how big the map is :)
07:28:12 <kallisti> elliott: but then it would become trivial to evade slow-moving projectiles
07:28:20 <kallisti> just mega-boost in a sideways direction
07:28:47 <elliott> i'm not sold on the mega-boost yet. it seems like it reduces the interestingness of the physics
07:29:07 <kallisti> elliott: two sounds sufficiently probably.
07:29:08 <zzo38> For chess with hourglasses, you could have different hourglass with different durations having different movement abilities, or you could have hourglass be extra pieces that the different kind augment your power of normal pieces according to their position and time.
07:31:35 <elliott> kallisti: another question is... how big the ships are :P
07:31:57 <elliott> i was thinking they'd basically not be all that much more than simple small triangular-ish shapes, but that kinda reduces the interestingness of the ragdoll-physicsy aspect?
07:32:20 <kallisti> elliott: if the map is larger (larger map could benefit from more interesting varieties of planets, also would be good if any strategy is incorporated) then the mega-boost could instead be balanced by a long charge time.
07:32:24 <elliott> like if a ship blows up it just blows up into debris
07:32:28 <elliott> and if those hit things it'll be pretty painful
07:33:14 <elliott> kallisti: good, but not as good with smaller ships
07:33:14 <kallisti> elliott: depends on the velocity of the particles as well
07:33:39 <elliott> well how small are you thinking
07:33:42 <kallisti> little tiny fast traveling space debris = death bullet
07:34:06 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/13/Asteroi1.png i was thinking... like that triangle ship, but maybe 2x bigger??? in physical terms
07:34:21 <elliott> i'd like different ship models???
07:34:40 <elliott> the problem with different ship models is blah blah blah balance :P
07:34:56 <elliott> but it's something to consider when deciding
07:35:03 <elliott> because if they're small enough there's no room for variation.
07:35:30 <Vorpal> <elliott> i'd like different ship models??? <-- like triangle and square?
07:35:34 <kallisti> also different models could have different sizes and thus different masses but I don't even know what kind of advantages large ships would have
07:35:40 <Vorpal> really, square is a viable shape in space
07:35:47 <elliott> Vorpal: yeah but it's also an UGLY shape.
07:35:53 <Vorpal> there is no reason to be aerodynamic.
07:36:14 <kallisti> elliott: I'd say bigger than the on-screen triangle there but not in scale to other space objects.
07:36:23 <Vorpal> elliott: so what shape then? I can manage some basic pixel art, but you seem to want to go for vector graphics rather
07:36:37 <elliott> Vorpal: note: vector /wireframey/ stuff
07:36:47 <elliott> something you could actually do on a vector display theoretically
07:36:47 <Vorpal> elliott: you are on 2D
07:37:08 <elliott> not everything has to be hollow :P
07:37:28 <zzo38> Make the Einstein spacecraft game.
07:37:32 <Vorpal> elliott: well you could do filled shapes by simply filling the hole. Due to the fact that the line has a width you will be able to fill a shape
07:37:41 <Vorpal> not sure if you could do that fast enough though
07:37:49 <elliott> Vorpal: it's about the aesthetic, not the implementation :P
07:38:00 <kallisti> elliott: debris is a good idea, but obviously physics should be taken into account. not everything is going to make deadly space debris that radiates in many directions because that would make killing another ship in a close range encounter unwise
07:38:04 <elliott> the idea is basically to pump every polygon into the physics engine.
07:38:16 <Vorpal> elliott: surely you are going to use the sound card to run this on an analogue oscope in xy mode?
07:38:18 <elliott> and have special cases for "interesting" objects.
07:38:23 <Vorpal> elliott: if not I'm not interested!
07:38:37 <elliott> Vorpal: graphics card to run it on a pixel display in opengl mode :P
07:38:47 <Vorpal> elliott: you seen the video of someone doing that for a demo right?
07:38:52 <Vorpal> otherwise let me find the link
07:39:12 <zzo38> Would you know how to make the Einstein spacecraft game?
07:39:12 <Vorpal> elliott: still it was amazing :P
07:39:24 <elliott> kallisti: gah now i want to get a simple prototype up and running.
07:39:38 <kallisti> elliott: that would, uh, be a good way to get the project rolling.
07:39:47 <zzo38> I don't know either. But it is an idea.
07:40:02 <elliott> kallisti: well the good thing is, it makes me want to work on the thing i also need for my other game project.
07:40:18 <kallisti> elliott: there are lots of good things to a prototype
07:40:18 <elliott> kallisti: which is known as
07:40:25 <elliott> kallisti: project i don't want to write any fucking glsl shaders
07:40:28 <Vorpal> kallisti: in case you haven't seen it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1eNjUgaB-g
07:40:55 <kallisti> AND WRITING THE REST OF THIS PAPER
07:41:02 <elliott> kallisti: i think you can agree that that is the best name
07:41:14 <zzo38> Depending on the games, you might not require shaders, you might not require 3D, you might not require much at all. It depend much on what game you are making.
07:41:17 <Vorpal> kallisti: watch that video first, it is like 3 minutes or something. Not exactly long.
07:41:22 <elliott> <elliott> kallisti: which is known as
07:41:22 <elliott> <elliott> kallisti: project i don't want to write any fucking glsl shaders
07:41:36 <Vorpal> zzo38: everything is done by shaders these days
07:41:55 <Vorpal> zzo38: as in, you need at least a basic shader to get anything drawn
07:42:03 <zzo38> Vorpal: You don't have to write a shader if you use a text mode.
07:42:07 <Vorpal> unless you are using opengl 2.x
07:42:13 <Vorpal> zzo38: then it isn't opengl?
07:42:22 <Sgeo> Are oscilloscopes actually arbitrary display thingies that just .. what
07:42:25 <zzo38> Vorpal: Yes, then it isn't opengl.
07:42:28 <elliott> Sgeo: they're vector displays
07:42:32 <Vorpal> Sgeo: oh that, well they have an xy mode
07:42:36 <Vorpal> and they are vector displays yes
07:42:43 <kallisti> elliott: anyway the best way to discuss balance is to actually have concepts coded in the game to test.
07:42:56 <elliott> Sgeo: kallisti: (what the project actually is is a library which compiles functional list folds and maps and shit to glsl shader code.)
07:43:03 <Vorpal> Sgeo: normally the x signal is taken from time, but you can just put it in xy mode and use one input for each axis
07:43:05 <kallisti> elliott: because this asserts that the mechanic is practical to implement
07:43:12 <kallisti> elliott: because it's already implemented
07:43:17 <kallisti> and then it allows you to actually test it.
07:43:18 <elliott> kallisti: (i don't want to write any fucking glsl shaders)
07:43:21 <Vorpal> Sgeo: well, that is a simplification of the normal operation mode, but basically yes
07:43:31 <Vorpal> you have stuff like triggers and what not too
07:43:43 <Vorpal> Sgeo: wouldn't work on a modern digital scope of course.
07:43:47 <Sgeo> Vorpal, ah, ok.
07:43:48 <Vorpal> they use bitmap displays
07:43:53 <kallisti> elliott: this is why games tend to have large numbers of cool things implemented in them that are subsequently removed in the production release.
07:44:05 <kallisti> or left as like easter eggs or cheats or whatever
07:44:37 <kallisti> elliott: and networking will be essentially because, well, we need to players to actually test it.
07:45:08 <elliott> kallisti: yeah, but i'd rather just get a simple ship flying in space with some random masses :P
07:45:21 <kallisti> it would be weird to write the protocol before you have anything else.
07:45:41 <elliott> kallisti: btw the problem with project i don't want to write any fucking glsl shaders is that instead i have to write a countably infinite number of glsl shaders
07:45:44 <elliott> by writing a compiler to them.
07:45:51 <Vorpal> <elliott> kallisti: (i don't want to write any fucking glsl shaders) <-- it is quite easy actualy
07:45:52 <elliott> "you dropped the ball elliott" - a person
07:46:07 <elliott> Vorpal: yep, but i don't like writing c, and i don't like writing restricted c even more
07:46:10 <Vorpal> elliott: you won't be doing lighting calculations right?
07:46:20 <elliott> Vorpal: well there's neon glow, but... no.
07:46:25 <elliott> Vorpal: HOWEVER, I will be for EC
07:46:28 <Vorpal> elliott: then it is basically trivial
07:46:36 <elliott> so i might as well save the pain of writing glsl once
07:46:39 <elliott> and reap the real benefits later
07:47:02 <kallisti> elliott: it would be interesting to have a gun that simply emits force into space, though I suppose it would have to obey newton's third law
07:47:03 <Vorpal> elliott: actually the major issue is getting the normals the right way around
07:47:20 <Vorpal> elliott: I'm taking a course in 3D graphics currently
07:47:27 <kallisti> elliott: so basically you could change the momentum and direction of things like asteroids.
07:47:29 <fizzie> Youscope is available as a .wav file somewhere in the interwebs; X and Y inputs as the left/right channels, just hook a 'scope to your sound card.
07:47:36 <elliott> fizzie: I wanna hear that.
07:47:45 <elliott> kallisti: that would be fun
07:47:46 <Vorpal> fizzie: it is linked in the video description
07:48:03 <elliott> Vorpal: yeah i can hear things you say right after me
07:48:03 <kallisti> elliott: no clue what purpose that would have :P
07:48:03 <Vorpal> fizzie: anyway "Most soundcards (and other players) seem to have a lowpass filter at about half of the samplerate, making some effects here look quite strange. The soundcard used in this video just didn't have proper filters so it happens to be suitable for these effects."
07:48:16 <elliott> kallisti: throwing an asteroid at your opponent :P
07:48:25 <Vorpal> elliott: strange, you must have a new beta version of irc then?
07:48:40 <elliott> Vorpal: holy shit this sounds good
07:48:42 <kallisti> elliott: what if you could like...
07:48:50 <fizzie> Vorpal: Right; I was thinking it might be linked, but thanks to noscript couldn't click the "see more" thing.
07:48:53 <kallisti> elliott: collide asteroids into planets and fuck up their orbits
07:48:58 <kallisti> elliott: that's scary I don't even want to think about that.
07:49:17 <kallisti> elliott: space sandbox: the game
07:49:28 <elliott> kallisti: http://universesandbox.com/ :P
07:49:42 <Vorpal> elliott: you might like it. I don't. Oh well.
07:49:44 <elliott> kallisti: http://mirror.kapsi.fi/koodaa.mine.nu/tvt/youscope-wave.wav seriously listen to this?????
07:50:12 <elliott> the amount of structure it has is amazing
07:50:28 <kallisti> elliott: why am I hearing silence
07:50:37 <elliott> kallisti: turn up speakers??
07:50:44 <monqy> it sounds like sound to me
07:50:45 <elliott> or wait for it to change maybe your soundcard/speakers suck and are filtering that part
07:50:51 <Vorpal> kallisti: check with another sound file to see if you can hear it?
07:51:02 <Vorpal> kallisti: it works fine with my SB Live 5.1 card
07:51:04 <kallisti> elliott: laptop speakers and sound card
07:51:16 <monqy> headphones for optimal experience
07:51:37 <Vorpal> note for headphone users: turn the volume way down to avoid damaging your hearing
07:51:39 <fizzie> elliott: Maybe with the right amount of imagination (and/or chemistry) you can listen to youscope-wave.wav on your headphones, close your eyes, and see the corresponding effects.
07:51:53 <kallisti> 00:1b.0 Audio device: Intel Corporation 5 Series/3400 Series Chipset High Definition Audio (rev 06)
07:52:03 <monqy> whoa hd audio nice
07:52:21 <Vorpal> kallisti: does other sound play currently? Sometimes I had alsa bug out on me randomly
07:52:24 <elliott> <Vorpal> note for headphone users: turn the volume way down to avoid damaging your hearing
07:52:34 <elliott> kallisti: Try another sound? :P
07:52:38 <Vorpal> $ lspci | grep -i audio
07:52:38 <kallisti> Vorpal: oh right. let me check
07:52:39 <Vorpal> 00:1b.0 Audio device: Intel Corporation 6 Series/C200 Series Chipset Family High Definition Audio Controller (rev 05)
07:52:39 <Vorpal> 01:00.1 Audio device: ATI Technologies Inc Barts HDMI Audio [Radeon HD 6800 Series]
07:52:39 <Vorpal> 08:00.0 Multimedia audio controller: Creative Labs SB Live! EMU10k1 (rev 07)
07:53:00 <Vorpal> kallisti: like, "Disabling IRQ [IRQ for sound card]" randomly in dmesg.
07:53:05 <Vorpal> No clue what caused those still
07:53:54 <elliott> Why do video cards have audio cards nowadays.
07:54:25 <Vorpal> elliott: you can send audio over HDMI
07:54:38 <elliott> kallisti: try downloading it and mplayer
07:54:49 <kallisti> elliott: there we go. alsa force-reload worked
07:54:50 <Vorpal> elliott: because it is more like Digital SCART than DVI
07:55:07 <fizzie> The win7 laptop automagically switched default audio-out to HDMI when I plugged in the (no speakers or anything of that sort) monitor.
07:55:11 <fizzie> That was the cleverest.
07:55:16 <elliott> Vorpal: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlZH1p0EUBs
07:55:28 <kallisti> elliott: I think alsa reload didn't want to reload because other things were using it.
07:55:33 <fizzie> 01:04.0 System peripheral: Compaq Computer Corporation Integrated Lights Out Controller (rev 03)
07:55:33 <fizzie> 01:04.2 System peripheral: Compaq Computer Corporation Integrated Lights Out Processor (rev 03)
07:55:34 <elliott> Vorpal: synth straight to oscilloscope :D
07:55:36 <fizzie> Wonder what *that* does.
07:55:49 <fizzie> "Integrated Lights Out Controller"... sounds like it's for punching other components.
07:56:08 <Vorpal> fizzie: you got the uplink edition
07:56:22 <Vorpal> desktop: http://sprunge.us/ZRPi laptop: http://sprunge.us/IGJg
07:56:30 <kallisti> elliott: hmmm sounds mostly like a lot of frequency modulation synthesis
07:56:33 <fizzie> (This was from a server I happened to have ssh'd to accidentally.)
07:56:39 <elliott> kallisti: uh its that demo Vorpal linked
07:56:43 <elliott> to be fed to an oscilloscope
07:56:53 <kallisti> right i mean how was it generated
07:56:59 <Vorpal> kallisti: you /did/ watch the video right?
07:57:34 <elliott> Vorpal: anyway I GUESS the shader might be trivial for aii but i dunno, maybe i want to do the background with a shader????
07:58:05 <Vorpal> elliott: yep. You want to basically draw a quad filling the screen and map the texture to it. You do that in the shader. Quite easy too
07:58:15 <Vorpal> especially with no lighting calculations
07:58:22 <kallisti> that's interesting as a sound synthesis technique
07:58:29 <elliott> Vorpal: no i mean generate it with the shader because there's a lot of parallaxen...
07:58:49 <Vorpal> elliott: well, I don't know anything about that.
07:59:10 <kallisti> how do you even do that with a time-domain signal
07:59:19 <Vorpal> kallisti: do what with a time-domain signal?
07:59:52 <Vorpal> it still amazes me that sound card even work.
07:59:54 <fizzie> You just draw one frame and then draw another?
08:00:24 <Vorpal> why isn't there a line connecting everything on screen though
08:00:51 <kallisti> presumably that's not how x/y-mode works on an oscilloscope
08:00:56 <elliott> Vorpal: there is, you can see it when it goes to a point
08:01:16 <elliott> Europeans started to place magnetic mountains on their maps in the sixteenth century. A notable example is Gerardus Mercator, whose famous maps included a magnetic mountain or two near the North Pole. At first, he just placed a mountain in an arbitrary location; but later he attempted to measure its location based on declinations from different locations in Europe. When subsequent measurements resulted
08:01:16 <elliott> in two contradictory estimates for the mountain, he simply placed two mountains on the map.[2][7]
08:01:21 <fizzie> You can also sort-of do the "same thing in reverse", use a sound card as an oscilloscope, if you don't mind having a horribly limited and cheap-ass 'scope; but there's software that has lots of buttons and all: http://www.zeitnitz.de/Christian/scope_en
08:01:40 <fizzie> And yes, if you move fast enough you can't see the line; you "draw" by moving slowly enough.
08:02:05 <kallisti> fizzie: that's some insanely complex shit going on between the left and right channel though.
08:02:37 <Vorpal> elliott: magnetic mountains? What?
08:02:46 <elliott> see wikipedia article ``history of geomagnetism''
08:02:48 <fizzie> It got quite a lot of applause when it was shown.
08:02:57 <elliott> Vorpal: anyway i forget what the other thing that isn't shaders is, that isn't deprecated
08:03:02 <elliott> something buffer objects???
08:03:08 <fizzie> Everything Buffer Objects.
08:03:13 <elliott> there's like two things that aren't deprecated in opengl these days, i know that much
08:03:14 <Vorpal> elliott: you use those together with shaders
08:03:26 <elliott> Vorpal: that's all, right?
08:03:29 <Vorpal> elliott: like texture buffer objects or whatever their name was for textures
08:03:51 <Vorpal> elliott: well you need a bit of C code to synchronize it all
08:04:04 <Vorpal> elliott: and yes there are those. Which is like buffer objects for loading vertex data in
08:04:13 <Vorpal> so you don't have to send everything to the GPU every frame
08:04:15 <fizzie> Frame and Vertex and Pixel and Texture and Whatever Buffer Objects.
08:04:21 <elliott> Vorpal: what i really want is just a "list of newest things"
08:04:27 <elliott> with anything replaced by a newer thing omitted.
08:04:58 <Vorpal> elliott: uh, I believe there is a #version nnn or such you put in the shader code that means it will warn you if you use stuff that isn't supported in said version
08:05:07 <Vorpal> like #version 330 for opengl 3.3
08:05:15 <elliott> Vorpal: no i mean there's things that aren't deprecated but you're not meant to use, i think even gl_begin/gl_end stuff isn't deprecated
08:05:24 <fizzie> Is "unjoy"-as-in-verb the opposite of "enjoy"?
08:05:31 <Vorpal> elliott: gl_begin/gl_end are deprecated
08:05:40 <elliott> i've read that they aren't
08:05:44 <Vorpal> elliott: it is just that they are supported in a compatibility profile
08:05:44 <elliott> everyone expected them to be but they weren't
08:05:53 <elliott> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/OpenGL ;; this is not helpful for figuring out which apis i have to use
08:05:56 <elliott> because it includes everything
08:06:14 <Vorpal> elliott: I'll look it up.
08:08:11 <Vorpal> hm the book I have here is for opengl 3.1
08:08:17 <Vorpal> so not exactly helpful on that point
08:08:47 <kallisti> elliott: (doing things) I suppose you intend to have realistic gravity?
08:09:08 <elliott> sort of the point of the whole newtonian thing
08:09:08 <Vorpal> elliott: are you on intel graphics?
08:09:14 <Vorpal> if so I think you are stuck on opengl 2.x
08:09:15 <elliott> kallisti: we're literally implementing newtonian physics
08:09:29 <Vorpal> elliott: then you can't use the new stuff
08:09:34 <Vorpal> you are stuck on the old version
08:09:38 <elliott> Vorpal: uh i am sure i can use shaders...
08:10:07 <kallisti> elliott: yes however your physics won't be realistic unless the spaceship to planet/star mass ratio is realistic even though the sizes are not.
08:10:17 <kallisti> so, I guess you're just going to do that?
08:10:17 <Vorpal> elliott: try this: glxinfo | grep OpenGL | grep version
08:10:22 <Vorpal> you should get two lines
08:10:33 <elliott> kallisti: you can just make the planets more massive without increasing their size.
08:10:39 <elliott> they can't collapse into black holes./
08:10:45 <Vorpal> laptop (intel graphics):
08:10:47 <Vorpal> $ glxinfo | grep OpenGL | grep version
08:10:47 <Vorpal> OpenGL version string: 2.1 Mesa 7.7.1
08:10:47 <Vorpal> OpenGL shading language version string: 1.20
08:10:49 <elliott> bash: glxinfo: command not found
08:10:55 <Vorpal> $ glxinfo | grep OpenGL | grep version
08:10:56 <Vorpal> OpenGL version string: 4.1.11005 Compatibility Profile Context
08:10:56 <Vorpal> OpenGL shading language version string: 4.10
08:10:58 <Vorpal> elliott: so install it?
08:11:14 <Vorpal> /usr/bin/glxinfo is owned by mesa-demos 8.0.1-1
08:11:49 <elliott> OpenGL version string: 2.1 Mesa 7.11.1
08:11:49 <elliott> OpenGL shading language version string: 1.20
08:12:08 <Vorpal> elliott: then you are stuck on the old version of opengl with glBegin/glEnd and so on
08:12:12 -!- derdon has joined.
08:12:14 <kallisti> elliott: one problem I'm forseeing is that gravity assisted manuevers will be difficult when you have to reason about multiple gravitational forces pulling on your spacecraft
08:12:14 <elliott> Vorpal: <elliott> OpenGL shading language version string: 1.20
08:12:19 <Vorpal> elliott: you might be able to use a few basic shaders, but I wouldn't bet on it
08:12:25 <elliott> <elliott> OpenGL shading language version string: 1.20
08:12:27 <Vorpal> elliott: yep but you don't have most of the modern features
08:12:34 <kallisti> I dunno I'm not really a space physics expert
08:12:41 <elliott> Vorpal: i'm pretty sure 1.2 will be quite enough for my limited needs.
08:12:42 <Vorpal> elliott: you can do some /very/ basic shaders
08:12:57 <Vorpal> elliott: still I'm pretty sure you only have the stateful API available
08:12:59 <elliott> Vorpal: see, for instance, the fact that GPipe is completely GLSL 1.2
08:13:15 <Vorpal> well I wouldn't use gpipe then
08:13:36 <elliott> most games work on intel cards
08:14:01 <Vorpal> elliott: not the high end ones on linux. See PH trying to get stuff working
08:14:11 <elliott> he has massive driver problems
08:14:14 <elliott> and most things crash his card
08:14:22 <elliott> a problem which i have never experienced
08:14:27 <elliott> and is entirely due to his system being fucked
08:14:29 <Vorpal> Trine requires stuff not found on intel graphics for example
08:14:38 <elliott> haskell's opengl binding: also opengl 2.1! all the people building actual shit on top of that MUST BE COMPLAINING!! oh wait they're not people use it just fine
08:15:24 <Vorpal> elliott: point is, opengl 2.x is a completely different API from opengl 3.x and later
08:15:56 <elliott> Prior to the release of OpenGL 3.0, the new revision was known as the codename Longs Peak. At the time of its original announcement, Longs Peak was presented as the first major API revision in OpenGL's lifetime. It consisted of an overhaul to the way that OpenGL works, calling for fundamental changes to the API.
08:15:56 <elliott> The draft introduced a change to object management. The GL 2.1 object model was built upon the state-based design of OpenGL. That is, in order to modify an object or to use it, one needs to bind the object to the state system, then make modifications to the state or perform function calls that use the bound object.
08:15:56 <elliott> Because of OpenGL's use of a state system, objects must be mutable. That is, the basic structure of an object can change at any time, even if the rendering pipeline is asynchronously using that object. A texture object can be redefined from 2D to 3D. This requires any OpenGL implementations to add a degree of complexity to internal object management.
08:16:00 <elliott> Under the Longs Peak API, object creation would become atomic, using templates to define the properties of an object which would be created with a single function call. The object could then be used immediately across multiple threads. Objects would also be immutable; however, they could have their contents changed and updated. For example, a texture could change its image, but its size and format coul
08:16:09 <Vorpal> but there are still major changes
08:16:13 <elliott> The final specification proved far less revolutionary than the Longs Peak proposal. Instead of removing all immediate mode and fixed functionality (non-shader mode), the spec included them as deprecated features. The proposed object model was not included, and no plans have been announced to include it in any future revisions. As a result, the API remained largely the same with a few existing extension
08:16:16 <Vorpal> just not as major as they wanted
08:16:18 <elliott> s being promoted to core functionality.
08:16:20 <elliott> OpenGL 3.0 added support for frame buffer objects, hardware instancing, vertex array objects (VAOs), and sRGB framebuffers (gamma 2.2).[26] OpenGL 3.0 introduced a deprecation mechanism to simplify the API in future revisions.
08:16:37 <kallisti> elliott: also will the n-body problem be a... problem?
08:16:44 <Vorpal> elliott: "With the release of the OpenGL 3.1 specification, a compatibility extension was also released that enables developers to access the OpenGL 1.X/2.X functionality removed in OpenGL 3.1.[28] Notably, legacy functionality for wide line support is retained."
08:16:50 <Vorpal> "Removed legacy functionality includes:[29]
08:16:50 <Vorpal> All fixed-function options"
08:16:57 <Vorpal> Color index mode, i.e. pixel formats with color palettes
08:17:17 <elliott> Vorpal: i'm not intending to use the fixed-function pipeline, so woo?
08:17:21 <elliott> kallisti: yeah the whole game will crash if you have more than 2 bodies
08:17:33 <elliott> kallisti: (hint: it doesn't have to be exact)
08:17:38 <Vorpal> elliott: but afaik fixed function + some limited shader is all you have in opengl 2.x
08:17:45 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runge%E2%80%93Kutta_methods
08:17:58 <elliott> Vorpal: yes have i ever said i was planning to use not-shaders
08:18:14 <Vorpal> elliott: Vertex Array Objects is new in opengl 3.0
08:18:28 <kallisti> elliott: blowing up moons should definitely be possible and awesome
08:18:31 <elliott> *shrug* fine, so i have to use something else
08:18:35 <kallisti> and then they become... rings?
08:18:51 <fizzie> And when you collect 50 rings you get to the bonus stage wait that was something else.
08:19:17 <elliott> Vorpal: anyway, i'm planning to buy a new computer soon sOOooooOOoooOoooOooOoooooo
08:19:18 <Vorpal> elliott: anyway I can't help you with opengl 2.x much. I only ever worked with fixed function in old opengl. And with 3.3 or later for modern opengl
08:20:09 <kallisti> elliott: the dwarf fortress approach to map generation would be to formulate the universe from the big bang, with some randomized initial conditions, and then allow matter to stabilize into celestial bodies.
08:20:35 <elliott> kallisti: that's what all sandbox games want to be really
08:20:49 <elliott> Vorpal: anyway i could just use the fixed function shit
08:21:02 <elliott> hell, i could probably just software render this, i just don't want to
08:21:17 <Vorpal> <fizzie> And when you collect 50 rings you get to the bonus stage wait that was something else. <-- wait, was that sonic?
08:22:19 <Vorpal> fizzie: there was that starfox game that had rings too iirc
08:22:37 <kallisti> elliott: I seriously doubt a common PC could simulate the formation of galaxies over billions of years faster than the universe actually did it. (strong CakeProphet hypothesis)
08:22:43 <fizzie> Vorpal: Also VBOs were added to core OpenGL 3.x, but there's the GL_ARB_vertex_buffer_object extension in 2.1 already, and Mesa has supported it since version 5.1 from the 2003s.
08:22:51 <elliott> kallisti: is that your final prophecy
08:22:53 <kallisti> elliott: or, that it would be fast enough for the patience of the common gamer (weak CakeProphet hypothesis)
08:23:09 <fizzie> Extensions are of course mildly annoying to use.
08:23:27 <elliott> fizzie: Gee, here I was thinking Vorpal's statement that people never did shaders properly before OpenGL 3.0 was bullshit :P
08:23:27 <kallisti> elliott: I am still a prophet: kallisti is merely my true name
08:23:34 <elliott> That was what I meant to type.
08:23:46 <fizzie> I suppose it depends on the definition of "properly".
08:23:54 <elliott> http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/OpenGLRaw/1.1.0.2/doc/html/Graphics-Rendering-OpenGL-Raw-ARB-VertexBufferObject.html
08:23:58 <fizzie> htkallas@pc112:~$ glxinfo
08:23:58 <fizzie> The program 'glxinfo' is currently not installed. To run 'glxinfo' please ask your administrator to install the package 'mesa-utils'
08:23:58 <fizzie> Oh no silly workstation installation.
08:24:08 <elliott> import Graphics.Rendering.OpenGL.Raw.ARB.Compatibility
08:24:08 <elliott> import Graphics.Rendering.OpenGL.Raw.Core32
08:24:33 <fizzie> GLintptr, a pointer so shiny it glints.
08:24:59 <elliott> kallisti: I'll have to ask PH about prediction algorithms for this stuff.
08:25:08 <elliott> I guess it shouldn't be TOO hard?
08:26:51 <kallisti> not to create /some/ algorithm to generate a map.
08:27:03 <Vorpal> elliott: you know, you are going to /hate/ TES lore about the dwemer ("dwarves")
08:27:07 <elliott> kallisti: I wasn't talking about that.
08:27:15 <elliott> kallisti: I was talking about prediction for network stuff, since that is pretty important.
08:27:18 <elliott> For maps I don't know what we're doing.
08:27:19 <fizzie> Runge-Kutta is the default differential-equation-solver method for the TI-86. (The other alternative is a straightforward Euler thing.)
08:27:19 <Vorpal> elliott: they are actually a kind of stocky underground elves in the lore.
08:27:21 <elliott> Procedural generation sounds right?
08:27:30 <kallisti> elliott: I don't even know how that works so uh... >_>
08:27:44 <fizzie> Vorpal: They're also MYSTERIOUS. What HAPPENED to them.
08:28:06 <Vorpal> fizzie: there are multiple theories in the in-game literature, as usual in TES games.
08:28:18 <fizzie> I don't suppose Skyrim elucidates much on the Dwemer? It doesn't sound like one of its CORE COMPETENCIES.
08:28:21 <elliott> kallisti: What if there's no thrusts and you just shoot in the opposite direction to thrust.
08:28:28 <fizzie> I've read some of the books in Morrowind/Oblivion, yes.
08:28:31 <Vorpal> they also weren't really short actually.
08:28:41 <Vorpal> <fizzie> I don't suppose Skyrim elucidates much on the Dwemer? It doesn't sound like one of its CORE COMPETENCIES. <-- some stuff it does.
08:28:45 <kallisti> elliott: just nondeterministically split the game state based on every possible player input (including no input) until the game resolves the problem by actually receiving the input. :P
08:28:50 <kallisti> elliott: that sounds really dumb :P
08:28:54 <Vorpal> fizzie: more than oblivion, less than morrowind I would say
08:29:21 <fizzie> Maybe I should just buy the silly game. 32.40 EUR with 0% VAT from Åland.
08:29:24 <Vorpal> fizzie: there are way more dwemer ruins in Skyrim than in cyrodil (spelling?)
08:29:41 <elliott> fizzie: You could pirate it (but you might feel bad).
08:29:56 <elliott> It's like QuickBasic but not?
08:29:59 <Vorpal> in row? Pretty sure it isn't Cyrodiil...
08:30:10 <fizzie> "Cyrodiil is an Imperial province in the south-central region of Tamriel and the home of a humanoid race known as Imperials."
08:30:26 <Vorpal> and the setting of oblivion
08:30:27 <fizzie> "There's no I in TEAM, but there's two in CYRODIIL", like the old saying goes.
08:30:32 <fizzie> (I don't know what it means.)
08:31:10 <kallisti> fizzie: it means cyrodiil is a geography organism with two eyes.
08:31:11 <Vorpal> there is also some indication that orcs might be a type of elves.
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08:31:41 <Vorpal> unless they messed up their conlangs that is
08:32:34 <elliott> So basically in Skyrim everyone is elf.
08:32:43 <elliott> Dwarf are elf, orc are elf.
08:32:46 <Vorpal> elliott: not humans. Or most monsters
08:33:00 <elliott> Just wait for Skyrim II: Human Are Elf Boogaloo
08:33:02 <Vorpal> elliott: maybe in TES VI
08:33:11 <elliott> No, they're all Skyrim now. That's just how popular it is.
08:33:11 <kallisti> elliott: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ncb7lHNWbnU
08:33:21 <elliott> The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim XIXIIXIXIXIXIX: So Very Tired
08:33:25 <kallisti> elliott: 10 minute tournamet final in Starcraft II
08:33:44 <elliott> kallisti: why do i want to watch this
08:33:58 <kallisti> elliott: because you mentioned wanting to watch a starcraft video that isn't 2 hours
08:34:07 <Vorpal> elliott: also argonians and whatever the name of the cat people is are not elves.
08:34:11 <elliott> kallisti: i stopped watching at "300 dollars for the winner" (ok i won't stop)
08:34:19 <elliott> kallisti: i take it the korean prizes are like 1 mil
08:34:27 <Vorpal> elliott: bretons might be human-elf hybrids according to some of the lore.
08:34:34 <elliott> Vorpal: read as "bitcoins"
08:34:36 <kallisti> elliott: I actually don't know how badass these people are.
08:34:47 <Vorpal> elliott: but this lore has been around longer than skyrim
08:35:05 <Deewiant> elliott: That video's from the beta, there wasn't much going on back then
08:35:09 <elliott> kallisti: SWEET IT'S IN 720P
08:35:14 <elliott> Deewiant: I can always count on you to know things.
08:35:46 <elliott> kallisti: fuck it, if i'm watching this it'll be in 1080p
08:35:48 <kallisti> elliott: as far as I can tell protoss is going to win?
08:36:10 <Deewiant> elliott: Last weekend's MLG (in the USA) had a $120k prize pool
08:36:17 <Deewiant> Not sure how that's divvied up though
08:36:23 <kallisti> elliott: do you have any idea what's going on?
08:36:48 <elliott> i thought they were flying things
08:36:55 <elliott> which ones are the zergs i know zergs
08:36:59 <Vorpal> <elliott> kallisti: SWEET IT'S IN 720P <-- only? there is 1080p sometimes too
08:37:08 <elliott> Vorpal: see a few lines later
08:37:08 <kallisti> zerg is the generic alien mutant things
08:37:13 <kallisti> protoss are the yellow-blue shiny
08:37:22 <elliott> kallisti: out-macroed!!! worst concept i can think of
08:37:23 <Vorpal> elliott: what happened to 4096p?
08:37:35 <elliott> Vorpal: still going i think
08:37:41 <kallisti> elliott: do you know what macro means in this context?
08:37:42 <elliott> kallisti: nothing i say will make sense unless you sync to the point i'm at :P
08:37:45 <Vorpal> elliott: slow download?
08:38:02 <elliott> Vorpal: yes and also i literally couldn't distinguish the higher ones because
08:38:05 <elliott> youtube compression is bad
08:38:14 <kallisti> elliott: basically what normal people do when they play starcraft. managing mineral usage and expansion and research
08:38:22 <kallisti> elliott: micromanagement is individual unit movement and tricks.
08:38:45 <elliott> are they doing this commentary over skype
08:38:47 <kallisti> elliott: a proxy is an offensive outpost next to the enemy base
08:38:56 <kallisti> to restrict them from expanding
08:39:18 <elliott> so do you play sc or just watch videos of it
08:39:23 <elliott> i feel this is probably a legitimate distinction since
08:39:29 <Vorpal> I'm sure it is fun, but you seem to need to spend a lot of time to get into it.
08:39:32 <elliott> most sports fans don't really play sports much on average i would guess
08:39:52 <elliott> kallisti: i'm two minutes in, are they actually playing properly or just like preparing
08:40:06 <Vorpal> next someone is going to start talking about DOTA games.
08:40:12 <kallisti> elliott: I don't know what you mean
08:40:25 <elliott> kallisti: ok here's the real question i was asking
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08:40:28 <elliott> why aren't tehy doing anything interseting
08:41:21 <elliott> i have to say the commentary style is very soothing
08:41:27 <elliott> obviously it's basically obnoxious
08:41:31 <elliott> but i would not watch this without it
08:41:54 <Vorpal> elliott: ever watched a DOTA style game?
08:42:11 <Vorpal> elliott: there are few more boring things
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08:42:27 <Vorpal> sure, probably players of the game understand it. I don't really
08:42:32 <elliott> are we actually seeing the screen of someone playing
08:42:34 <kallisti> elliott: what time are you on?
08:42:39 <kallisti> elliott: no it's a spectator screen
08:42:48 <elliott> kallisti: right i was thinking that
08:42:52 <elliott> not much seemed to be actually being done
08:43:36 <kallisti> elliott: oh well the protoss dude has a proxy at the zergs base
08:43:36 <kallisti> and they're basically buiding up units to prepare for a battle
08:44:08 <kallisti> elliott: so the protoss player can basically warp in units from his main base to that proxy thing
08:44:40 <Deewiant> elliott: If you want to see the player's POV, http://www.youtube.com/user/remembertomorrow0 has a ton of videos
08:44:57 <kallisti> elliott: "banelings" are little suicide bombers
08:44:58 <elliott> Deewiant: I have a feeling it'd be signifiacntly less comprehensible
08:45:11 <Deewiant> elliott: You're right, it would
08:45:19 <kallisti> elliott: it's kind of hard to see what's going actually.
08:45:40 <elliott> one thing i wanted to mention was
08:45:56 <kallisti> elliott: okay so the nydus worm
08:46:02 <elliott> suddenly explosions everywhere
08:46:02 <kallisti> lets the zerg funnel units across the map
08:46:13 <kallisti> elliott: so while that battle is going on
08:46:19 <kallisti> another is going on at the protoss base
08:46:26 <kallisti> that you can't see for most of the time.
08:46:30 <elliott> how do humans play this game
08:47:02 <Deewiant> How do single CPUs run multiple threads?
08:47:16 <elliott> Deewiant: cpus aren't people
08:47:21 <elliott> i cant reliably save register state
08:47:34 <kallisti> elliott: he basically kills the other guys base /after his base is gone/ with /workers/
08:47:44 <kallisti> elliott: and then has a flying unit that finished off the other buildings
08:49:16 <elliott> now to watch one of Deewiant's i guess???
08:50:03 <elliott> Deewiant what's the best video
08:51:48 <elliott> Not showering is Ruining E-Sports (self.starcraft)
08:52:38 <pikhq_> Ah, enjoying the Korean national sport I see.
08:52:40 <Deewiant> elliott: I dunno, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01CTAzgTuKI is new and seems like it's not an entirely shitty game, try that
08:53:34 <Deewiant> I avoided the PvPs and ZvZs because they'd probably be boring
08:53:39 <kallisti> I wonder if they made terran underpowered because in starcraft I terran was basically the best.
08:54:17 <kallisti> kallisti: a lot of people are stupid
08:54:20 <kallisti> and thikn that if they just spam stuff
08:54:23 <Deewiant> elliott: He's pressing hotkeys, you can see the icon pressed in the lower right corner
08:54:31 <elliott> Deewiant: but when the alt-tab dialogue pops up
08:54:49 <kallisti> elliott: people like to spam keys to keep them "warmed up" or something
08:55:02 <elliott> i think this guy is just pressing the same key a lot.
08:55:20 <kallisti> elliott: the key to starcraft skillz is to have ADD
08:55:22 <elliott> "Wtf "nobody likes Quebec"! HEY Deezer doesn't represent us at all! Please dissociate us from this fucktard.
08:55:39 <kallisti> elliott: so yeah /watching/ the beginning of a starcraft game is really boring.
08:55:49 <elliott> should i just skip to the middle :P
08:56:04 <elliott> im already missing everything
08:56:07 <elliott> by way of having no idea what's going on
08:56:20 <elliott> so wait is there any actual space involve
08:56:33 <kallisti> there's like floating space colony maps
08:57:03 <Deewiant> kallisti: The idea is that in complicated situations the player with a higher APM will have an advantage (assuming a fairly equal situation otherwise), and it's easier to keep your APM high by doing stuff quickly right from the start instead of speeding up only when necessary
08:57:16 <kallisti> Deewiant: I disagree with that perspective
08:57:44 <kallisti> Deewiant: higher APM = advantage always
08:57:49 <kallisti> but I guess staying active makes sense.
08:57:52 <elliott> i think this guy can almost certainly type faster than me
08:57:57 <elliott> or are they only good at pressing the same key repeatedly
08:58:04 <kallisti> elliott: he's not typing anything
08:58:16 <kallisti> yes I dunno what's up with that.
08:58:18 <elliott> a voice saying not enough energy
08:59:14 <kallisti> man he really likes spamming spawn larva all the time.
08:59:20 <Deewiant> kallisti: In most cases, you only need like 30-40 APM to do everything necessary; but when you're fighting three battles at once and want to macro at the same time, the guy with the higher APM will mismicro less and macro better
08:59:21 <kallisti> that's the "not enough energy"s
09:00:39 <kallisti> elliott: those giant tentacle things are actually buildings
09:00:53 <elliott> this is a strange game kallisti.
09:01:48 <elliott> kallisti: is this meant to be interesting 8 and a half minutes in
09:02:36 <kallisti> that's when it gets interesting
09:03:14 <kallisti> elliott: the focus early game is to efficienctly use minerals and have a quick build order while planning some kind of opening move.
09:04:00 <kallisti> this guy is pretty insanely fast.
09:04:53 <Deewiant> That guy isn't very good compared to the average pro level
09:05:18 <kallisti> this is because professional starcraft people aren't actually mortal men.
09:05:24 <elliott> Deewiant: isn't he some kind of strarrararcraft celebrity i seem to remember seeing
09:06:23 <Deewiant> And he is a pro, just not a very good one.
09:07:10 <kallisti> yeah he's got way too many resources
09:07:14 <kallisti> that could be turned into death things.
09:07:30 <Deewiant> He's maxed starting at around 12 mins
09:08:00 <kallisti> still he could spawn probably like 50 spore colonies
09:08:05 <kallisti> or whatever they're called now.
09:08:31 <elliott> are there any videos of insanely good koreans being incomprehensible, i have this kind of mythologised mental image of starcraft
09:08:36 <elliott> i can vaguely see things moving about coherently
09:08:39 <elliott> so this doesn't really rteg
09:08:42 <elliott> kallisti: these maps are ujst fucking backgrounds
09:09:00 <kallisti> elliott: they're probably air units...
09:09:16 <elliott> kallisti: it was at 9 minutes or something
09:10:08 <elliott> "I was more impressed by the volume and variety of farts. One of them even smelled exactly what I ate for lunch 10 minutes later which made it a little bit of a surreal experience."
09:10:10 <elliott> Not showering is Ruining E-Sports (self.starcraft)
09:10:31 <elliott> kallisti: i think green? complicated game.
09:10:46 <kallisti> elliott: oh do they move really slow?
09:11:12 <kallisti> I think those are overlords and they fly very slowly.
09:11:14 <elliott> i don't know what slow is in this world...
09:11:40 <elliott> kallisti: huge congregation at 11:57-11:59
09:12:09 <Deewiant> Those are mutalisks, they fly.
09:12:14 <elliott> FLY WITH WALKING ANIMATION
09:12:20 <kallisti> fly with flapping wings animation
09:13:55 <kallisti> elliott: they're green because he has them selected
09:14:08 <elliott> their sprites looked green too but ok
09:14:51 <kallisti> players are color coded all pretty like
09:15:06 <elliott> Deewiant: who's THE BEST at starcraft..........
09:15:30 <kallisti> Deewiant: this guy basically just hits and runs with mutalisks the whole game while protoss builds a massive death force.
09:16:47 <elliott> Deewiant: who's richest????
09:18:01 <Deewiant> I'll plug the Swedes and say that Naniwa is among the best right now
09:18:01 <kallisti> Deewiant: I haven't see any other offensive units besides mutalisks
09:18:23 <elliott> so is sc2 much different from sc1
09:18:34 <kallisti> elliott: strategy is pretty drastically different
09:18:42 <kallisti> but still some basic stuff remains
09:18:48 <elliott> oops they got to his core thing!!!!
09:18:49 <kallisti> same terminology is pretty much applicable.
09:19:27 <kallisti> elliott: they added some new gameplay mechanics
09:19:33 <kallisti> for example the gold minerals which give you more shit
09:19:42 <kallisti> and the towers which let you see through fog of war a long distance
09:19:48 <kallisti> good for getting a heads up on attacks
09:19:57 <kallisti> and they have units that can scale cliffs.
09:20:32 <kallisti> which was not previously possible unless they were air units
09:21:27 <kallisti> for example, reapers are terran ground infatnry with jetpacks. they're very mobile, can jump up and down cliffs, and have special bombs they use when attacking buildings
09:21:31 <elliott> his password is quite short.
09:21:34 <kallisti> so they're good at raiding enemies bases.
09:21:45 <elliott> to find out what keys he pressed
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09:29:51 <elliott> Sgeo: something about joke and not being stupid
09:30:33 <Sgeo> elliott, in #haskell ? I just had a brain failure, is all
09:30:41 <elliott> Sgeo: no, i meant the whole
09:30:46 <elliott> <Sgeo> tutmirleiden, this chat is not, strictly speaking, a part of the tutorial
09:30:50 <elliott> <Sgeo> However, it does link to there, which may make it look like it is
09:32:09 <Sgeo> elliott, I didn't mean to imply that he's an idiot. But I do think that the way it's set up may give people the impression that the chat is specific to tryhaskell
09:32:12 <fizzie> Speaking of finding out keys pressed, this -> http://www.cs.utexas.edu/~shmat/courses/cs380s/zhuang.pdf <- was a thing; it's old as anything now, of course; but still, unsupervised and all that.
09:32:51 <elliott> fizzie: this video has both video AND audio
09:35:14 <elliott> <tutmirleiden> thanks mr elliot
09:48:27 <fizzie> El-Jot, the lesser-known cousin of Superman.
09:49:46 <elliott> the big money fight has drawn the shoporo
09:49:46 <elliott> od dosens of companies in the entertainment
09:49:46 <elliott> industry as well as attorneys gnnerals on
09:49:46 <elliott> states, who fear the fild shading softwate
09:49:46 <elliott> will encourage illegal acyivitt, srem the
09:49:47 <elliott> grosth of small arrists and lead to lost
09:49:49 <elliott> cobs and dimished sales tas revenue.
10:02:47 * shachaf looked up: how to make elliott mad
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11:10:55 <ais523> have you seen the argument between HP and Oracle?
11:11:10 <ais523> apparently, Oracle have accused HP of paying Intel to keep maintaining Itanium
11:11:47 <ais523> and they're probably upset about this because they have to keep their Itanium support contracts with HP up
11:12:02 <ais523> the typical reaction from everyone else is, "well, why /can't/ HP pay Intel for Itanium?"
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11:22:53 -!- Lymee has changed nick to Lymia.
11:32:12 <shachaf> elliott: Is Series 2 any good?
11:32:30 <elliott> shachaf: Yes, but not nearly as.
11:32:42 <elliott> The Music 2000 episode is good; also the computer one as I recall.
11:33:22 <elliott> Also it's really spotty on YouTube, I just bought the DVD.
11:33:25 <shachaf> It's not on that video website, as far as I could tell.
11:33:39 <elliott> Well, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYwPD7ARJ0Y is... the first ten minutes.
11:33:58 <shachaf> I suppose supporting a noble endeavor such as this is worth something, after all.
11:35:07 <shachaf> elliott: NON-USA FROMAT. :-(
11:35:26 <elliott> shachaf: Oh please, don't they sell universal DVD players or whatnot?
11:35:32 <elliott> You could just rip it or something.
11:35:36 <shachaf> I suppose libdvdcss plays it just as well, but still.
11:35:54 <shachaf> elliott: As I mentioned, I don't even *own* a television. What good would a DVD player do me?
11:36:21 <shachaf> I much prefer to have my MPEG streams delivered to me over TCP/IP over insertkmchere.
11:36:28 <HackEgo> 29) <ais523> after all, what are DVD players for?
11:36:51 <ais523> that's a surprisingly early quote
11:37:16 * shachaf wonders if there's any context worth knowing.
11:37:24 <ais523> elliott: most DVD players are reasonably easy to hack to play foreign DVDs
11:37:45 <ais523> typically it's included as an easter egg, because the ability to do that promotes sales of the DVD player, yet they aren't allowed to officially know about it
11:37:57 <elliott> i recall looking it up on some website once
11:38:01 <shachaf> elliott: Hmm, there's no US-valid Series 2 DVD for sale as far as I can tell.
11:38:02 <elliott> OPEN CLOSE EJECT MENU 3 4 4 EJECT CLOSE
11:38:11 <elliott> shachaf: It's because we're racist.
11:38:44 <ais523> elliott: yes, it's typically that sort of thing
11:39:29 <ais523> lambdabot: but I'm here
11:43:31 <shachaf> elliott: Hey, I haven't seen _Ghosts_.
11:43:36 <shachaf> I thought I had but I hadn't.
11:43:48 <shachaf> That's like a free new episode was created just for me.
11:43:49 <elliott> I think that's the most bizarre episode of the first series.
11:51:26 <ais523> today's XKCD is really impressive
11:51:30 <ais523> it's not funny, but it's not meant to be
11:51:48 <ais523> it's one of those ones where he just got a stupidly large number of statistics and made a drawing out of them
11:55:03 <ais523> I assume people don't actually read xkcd unless they're linked to it
11:55:13 <ais523> also, that "today's xkcd" is a good enough link for most people to follow
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12:59:51 <Phantom_Hoover> 06:33:04: <kallisti> realtime games and networking kind of don't work
13:00:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Thing is, describing AII as a dogfighting game makes it sound too fast-paced.
13:00:31 <elliott> I go into that more a bit later.
13:00:38 <Phantom_Hoover> I can't really see it working except as a slower-paced thing where you need to plan your course.
13:10:58 <ais523> is this an existing game, or one you're planning to write?
13:12:00 <ais523> also, are those lowercase ls or capital Is?
13:12:20 <elliott> It's short for Asteroids II, which is really going to have to be replaced by a proper name.
13:12:25 <elliott> Maybe we'll just call it... aii.
13:12:33 <ais523> the two letters are marginally different in this font, enough to tell them apart with a comparison, but not to be sure about them without one
13:13:12 <ais523> looks like a difference of one vertical pixel exactly in length
13:24:11 <Phantom_Hoover> OK *seriously* what is it with the Runge-Kutta methods.
13:24:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Everything I can find says they're for ODEs, and yet I've only seen them given for first derivatives.
13:25:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: /queryyyyyyyyyyyy
13:25:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Also I'm seeing if anyone in the channel knows what's up with that.
13:25:47 <elliott> It wasn't about Runge-Kutta :P
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13:35:34 <kallisti> time to release DMT from my pineal gland (assuming that's actually what happens when you dream)
13:35:51 <kallisti> as my body enters a state of partial paralysis
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13:37:15 <elliott> enjoy kallisti.............
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13:51:13 <elliott> ais523: oh no, I think I just decided that Crawl-style viewpoint movement is the best
13:51:58 <ais523> why? it's really disorienting
13:52:07 <ais523> although it depends on the game, I guess
13:52:18 <ais523> for a horror shooter sort of game, that sort of disorienting viewpoint works great
13:52:30 <elliott> ais523: yep, but the situation here is a display 20 times as large as the terminals Crawl is usually played in :P
13:52:42 <elliott> (well, I suppose most Crawl players use tiles since it's so popular on Windows...)
13:54:18 <elliott> ais523: and I think the disorientation at that scale can be eliminated simply by making the "camera" lag behind the player a little bit
13:54:41 <elliott> i.e., while moving you're off-center in whatever direction you're travelling in, and when you slow down the camera smoothly scrolls into the center
13:57:09 <elliott> ais523: (the context is AII :P)
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14:32:44 <ais523> Phantom__Hoover: why do you keep making random demands of me without context?
14:39:32 <Phantom__Hoover> No it turned out that makes sense, although now I'm wrestling with the cover for the PCIe card.
14:40:17 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: While the motherboard collects...
14:40:57 <ais523> hint: things collect static from moving or having things move across them, not from staying still
14:41:17 <elliott> ais523: You don't understand, in Scotland static is magic.
14:41:31 <elliott> It's caused by humidity, flourescent lights, and nearby microwaves.
14:41:56 <ais523> hmm, I'm now more or less convinced that the latest batch of spambots work by taking a legitimate page on the subject and running it through a translation service twice
14:42:36 <ais523> I've got reasonably good at reading machine-translated English (it's a /very/ valuable language to know in today's world), and they seem to be writing in that
14:43:21 <ais523> hmm, I'm mostly over the depression, too, even though Feather didn't really help
14:45:42 <ais523> meanwhile, I'm busy trying to track down a bug in this ICA compiler
14:46:00 <ais523> it's showing up as an off-by-one, but I'm not convinced that it actually /is/ that; I suspect it's actually an off-by-n where n=1 by chance
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14:58:59 <Phantom__Hoover> OK I have discovered a horror even worse than the PSU cables: the motherboard/case connectors.
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15:00:48 <fizzie> Sometimes there's even no indication which way around the leds go.
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15:15:54 <ais523> A lot of us in the website that were having success ended up applying some type of fasting into their diet. A primary though ended up being that going barefoot didn't seem healthy. I actually appeared to be within impression that we had to be feeding on every 3 periods or maybe my own body would definitely come in for you to disease mode.
15:16:44 <ais523> it doesn't feel like a markov bot; the sentences have an internal logic, but the word choice is completely bizarre
15:17:13 -!- copumpkin has joined.
15:17:51 -!- Gregor has set topic: The IOCCC is back on! http://www.ioccc.org | http://esolangs.org/ | Wwe had to be feeding on every 3 periods or maybe my own body would definitely come in for you to disease mode. | half-add er? I ardly knew er! | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
15:18:13 <derrik> I got zero day all day but its specific to my paycheck so i ain't selling that. Job is shitty enough.
15:18:29 <derrik> (quoting my fav discussion bot)
15:18:48 -!- Gregor has set topic: The IOCCC is back on! http://www.ioccc.org | http://esolangs.org/ | We had to be feeding on every 3 periods or maybe my own body would definitely come in for you to disease mode. | half-add er? I ardly knew er! | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
15:18:52 <Gregor> ais523: You didn't see that.
15:19:03 <fungot> Gregor: biscuit, and the remembrance of that sacrifice the short term for the long term, because they won't be your friends even without it, you can't... such a fine day. an entire barrel can easily be a dealbreaker!
15:19:16 <fungot> elliott: t-rex, i don't know, a cute little skirt, and thus, it no longer represents you. for whatever he or she or it or at better jobs as they come up all the time, and when they do, there's no moment of laughing realization, so you can't ever do a video epitaph for us all will read?
15:19:33 <ais523> elliott: coincidence? or is fungot doing some sort of word-copying?
15:19:33 <fungot> ais523: is that a fad? chinese so that my computer could think about sex, and that would be all it would take to change a lightbulb. the light turned on and on about order versus freedom, the giddy joy, t-rex
15:19:42 <ais523> probably engineered coincidence
15:20:28 <fizzie> ais523: If it's in any way affected by the input, it's not intentional.
15:20:47 <ais523> fizzie: indeed; I suspect it was elliott setting up for a likely coincidence
15:20:56 <ais523> how does fungot do its randomization, btw? some sort of ?-based RNG?
15:20:56 <fungot> ais523: i, too, will take what i can get a little of that back with them, dromiceiomimus
15:21:45 <fizzie> ais523: There's a loop which does "4*, then ?-based 0/1/2/3+" a couple of times, I think maybe 28 bits' worth or something.
15:21:58 <fizzie> Maybe not quite that many.
15:22:00 <ais523> that's surprisingly sensible
15:23:10 <fizzie> There's one hardcoded [0..15] RNG done with a sequence of a ?-powered 0/4/8/c+ and a 0/1/2/3+, too. It's used for determining when to stop or some-such.
15:23:34 <Gregor> Wow, I have some iron-rich blood.
15:23:38 <Gregor> My blood tastes exactly like rust.
15:24:08 <ais523> Gregor: blood is kind-of heavy in iron because a transition metal's needed to bind to the oxygen
15:25:14 <fizzie> Better that than just a blood dabbler.
15:25:30 -!- Gregor has set topic: The IOCCC is back on! http://www.ioccc.org | http://esolangs.org/ | We had to be feeding on every 3 periods or maybe my own body would definitely come in for you to disease mode (don't dabble in blood). | half-add er? I ardly knew er! | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
15:25:39 -!- elliott has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
15:25:58 <elliott> Occasionally one must curtail the jocularity of the hoi polloi.
15:26:02 -!- Gregor has set topic: The IOCCC is back on! http://www.ioccc.org | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
15:26:16 <ais523> we need that IOCCC notice until it isn't, I think; it's potentially important
15:26:28 <ais523> the topic notice wrt the Wolfram prize thing earned be a moderate amount of money
15:26:35 <fizzie> We need it there until we no longer need it, I think.
15:26:38 <ais523> (well, about a year's salary, that's quite a bit but not lifechanging)
15:26:42 <elliott> ais523: yeah, and do we really want to repeat THAT mistake? ;D
15:27:00 <Gregor> I didn't realize he'd learned that in an #esoteric /topic X-D
15:28:10 <elliott> Gregor: he talked to me about it for about five minutes in the third person
15:28:20 <elliott> then i was like "oh, is the winner in here?" "yes" "is the winner... you?" "yes"
15:29:18 <Gregor> elliott: If that's the case, then "the topic notice wrt the Wolfram prize thing [did /not/] [earn him] a moderate amount of money"
15:30:42 <Gregor> elliott: He said that the topic notice earned him money, that implies that he learned about the competition from the topic notice.
15:31:28 <ais523> then after I won, I strung people along a bit
15:31:36 <Gregor> elliott: Oh, I thought you were making a wholly different point X-D
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15:36:01 <elliott> Gregor: You should MAKE MUSIC FOR AII!!!!!!11111111111111111111111
15:37:25 <ais523> hmm, perhaps you should fix my creative dead end with the DNA Maze level music
15:37:38 <ais523> which I think is great, but I've got stuck at the end of the chorus
15:37:43 <ais523> Gregor: how have you never heard of DNA Maze?
15:38:02 -!- ais523 has changed nick to ais523\unfoog.
15:38:24 <elliott> Gregor: AII = Asteroids II! EXPANSION IS COMPLETELY UNOFFICIAL.
15:38:29 <elliott> Because it would get us: SUED.
15:38:39 <Gregor> ais523\unfoog: Yes, but I'm also a regular of the USA, whose timezones are somewhat distinct from yours.
15:38:46 <Gregor> (Yes, the USA is a person)
15:39:07 <fizzie> And the Asteroids II Extended Edition, aka AIIEE, one presumes.
15:39:35 <ais523\unfoog> Gregor: well, it's a computer game that I've written
15:39:43 <ais523\unfoog> with the main single player mode around 90% finished
15:39:46 <elliott> Gregor: To give a not entirely unhelpful answer, it's a Newtonian-physics space-based real-timeish physics strategy game with... sort of dogfight elements and ... a lot of orbital transfers ...
15:40:37 <Gregor> elliott: Newtonian physics are for losers, relativity would make asteroids so much "better"
15:41:15 <elliott> Gregor: Basically it's a buncha spaceships vs. a bunch a' other spaceships in 2D space under Newtonian physics with a bunch of masses orbiting each other and shit and the strategy is based around complicated planning, orbital transfers, and physics-warping shit like "make-time-go-slower-inside-this-bubble bubble" :P
15:41:40 <elliott> OK it is seriously a much better idea than it sounds I've just been avoiding the term "dogfight" because Phantom__Hoover quite rightly pointed out it makes things sound way too fast and brute-forcey :P
15:42:07 <Gregor> ais523\unfoog: Current state of musicx?
15:42:37 <elliott> Gregor: Also it theoretically will have a TOTALLY NEAT vector graphics aesthetic?? Also ragdoll physicsy things?? Gravity?? Black holes?? Network multiplayer??
15:42:42 <ais523\unfoog> Gregor: I'm mostly composing it myself; I have a few level musics done which are nothing special, and a main menu theme which I really like but repeats too quickly
15:42:48 <elliott> WHY DO YOU LOVE DNA MAZE MORE THAN AII ;__;
15:43:04 <Gregor> elliott: Dood, I'm goin' back and forth here.
15:43:10 <elliott> No you're abandoning us. With hate.
15:43:12 <Gregor> But yeah, I totally write game music.
15:43:21 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: Neither is AII
15:43:41 <ais523\unfoog> and does it have an indentation discipline all to itself?
15:43:48 <elliott> Dunno how long gravity.lisp is, but it's been worked on for about... two years now :P
15:44:02 <ais523\unfoog> (Gregor: elliott's actually taken to defensively asking me "is it indented like DNA Maze?" whenever I threaten to send him code)
15:44:18 <elliott> Basically Phantom__Hoover is handling the hard PHYSICS MATH and all three of us are bending it into a game :P
15:44:30 <Gregor> ......................
15:45:14 <elliott> I'm not sure what Gregor's megaellipsising at :P
15:45:20 <Gregor> (ais proceeds to paste in his entire program)
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15:45:44 <ais523\unfoog> indentation is like Python when seen from the left, and all the braces go at end of line
15:46:10 <ais523\unfoog> it's designed to annoy all indentation fanboys equaly
15:46:22 <ais523\unfoog> hmm, perhaps I should make it use 5-space indents just to keep everyone unhappy
15:46:36 <ais523\unfoog> or 1-space 1-tab (in that order) would do that job even better, I guess
15:46:49 <Gregor> How 'bout using vertical tabs, and just making sure that your editor displays them as tabs.
15:47:09 <elliott> Gregor: Have I mentioned that DNA Maze's indentation style also replaces sequences of 8 spaces with tabs?
15:47:12 <elliott> Despite using a 2-space indentation?
15:47:21 <elliott> Now ais523\unfoog will start the Tab Idiocy again.
15:47:30 <elliott> Brace yourselves, semicolon yourselves.
15:47:33 <ais523\unfoog> elliott: we've changed from Netbeans to Eclipse in the labs down here
15:47:50 <ais523\unfoog> and Eclipse is producing code with mixed tabs and spaces, with tab != 8
15:49:11 <ais523\unfoog> well, OK, I'm used to reading badly-indented code, so it's just /annoying/ to mark
15:50:37 <Gregor> Just run everything through indent -kr :P
15:51:26 <ais523\unfoog> Gregor: oh right, I mean to do that on my IOCCC submission
15:51:46 <ais523\unfoog> astyle makes such a beautiful mess of it (some lines end up indented so far that they wrap the entire screen in my terminal, even if I maximise it)
15:54:13 <ais523\unfoog> hmm, the results of running indent on it are arguably better than the original, though, although still far from optimal
15:54:18 <Gregor> ais523\unfoog: Feel like giving us clues about your IOCCC submission? :P
15:54:35 <ais523\unfoog> it's a single-transferable-vote counter that stores data using stack smashing
15:56:34 <ais523\unfoog> hmm, how easy is it to use Emacs as a batch reindenter?
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16:53:13 <Phantom__Hoover> ais523\unfoog, OK now the computer is not actually doing anything when plugged in and the power button is pressed.
16:53:50 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: It died of static.
16:54:08 <Phantom__Hoover> I've tried putting the power button wires in both orientations.
16:54:45 <ais523\unfoog> hmm, in that case ask someone who's actually assembled a computer (i.e. not me)
16:55:02 <Vorpal> my mobo has a test button and led on it. IIRC for testing that the memory modules work, but obviously you could use it to check that power + memory modules work
16:55:10 <Vorpal> maybe your mobo has something similar?
16:55:23 <Phantom__Hoover> Great, I have a completely fucking useless paperweight and I'm getting pinballed around.
16:55:43 <ais523\unfoog> you can figure out if the processor is hot by touching it
16:55:48 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover: do you have a multimeter?
16:56:12 <ais523\unfoog> also, the problem's probably with the power supply or the power button if the power supply fan doesn't spin up
16:56:15 <elliott> `addquote <ais523\unfoog> Phantom__Hoover: is the processor hot? <ais523\unfoog> also, does it smell of burnt silicon? [...] <ais523\unfoog> you can figure out if the processor is hot by touching it
16:56:18 <HackEgo> 733) <ais523\unfoog> Phantom__Hoover: is the processor hot? <ais523\unfoog> also, does it smell of burnt silicon? [...] <ais523\unfoog> you can figure out if the processor is hot by touching it
16:56:31 <Vorpal> how is that funny at all?
16:56:45 <ais523\unfoog> I thought the "I don't know" was the funny bit there
16:57:04 <elliott> Vorpal: the first two lines are amusingly specific in their prognostication, and the third is amusing in its obviousness
16:57:21 <Vorpal> elliott: the funny line is really the "<Phantom__Hoover> I don't know."
16:57:39 * elliott disagrees, and doesn't think you'd be saying that if ais523\unfoog hadn't said it.
16:57:47 <Phantom__Hoover> Like, I turn on the cable at the socket, turn on the PSU, press the power cable, and... nothing.
16:57:48 <elliott> The transition to the third line is ruined by adding that one.
16:58:03 <Vorpal> I did notice it was a bit weird in the original context
16:58:07 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: You press the button, not the cable. hth
16:58:20 * elliott thinks this will calm down Phantom__Hoover immeasurably.
16:58:32 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover: anyway you should really get a multimeter tomorrow or such. They are cheap really. Don't know exact prices, but I seen ones below 100 SEK. They should be good enough for just checking if you have a voltage where you should in the PSU connector
16:58:41 <ais523\unfoog> elliott: I'd have added it as <ais523> PH: is the processor hot? [...] <PH> I don't know <ais523> you can figure out if the processor is hot by touching it
16:58:51 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover: that is, standby power
16:58:51 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: hmm, tempting
16:58:54 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: I'll review it tomorrow
16:59:17 <Vorpal> ais523\unfoog: don't know what that is in SEK
16:59:24 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Touch the cooler?
16:59:28 <ais523\unfoog> Phantom__Hoover: well, you'd have to open the case, which is a sensible thing to do anyway when diagnosing computer problems
16:59:43 <ais523\unfoog> the whole point of a cooler is to be at the same temperature as the processor
16:59:44 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Anyway, if the PSU fan doesn't go on, like ais523\unfoog said, it won't be a CPU problem.
16:59:59 <ais523\unfoog> assuming the PSU has a fan, which is likely but not guaranteed
17:00:02 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: So... doublecheck everything from the power button to the socket to the PSU?
17:00:04 <Vorpal> indeed it is then either a mobo problem or PSU problem
17:00:17 <Vorpal> ais523\unfoog: you need a really low power PSU to find one without a fan
17:00:18 <elliott> My PSU doesn't have a PSU.
17:00:21 <Vorpal> ais523\unfoog: like a laptop one
17:00:30 <elliott> Vorpal: There are 350W, 400W PSUs without fans.
17:00:53 <Vorpal> elliott: I count <400W as really low power for a desktop
17:00:56 <elliott> I think the Zalman TNN thing is 420W, but it's part of the heatpipe system so it doesn't really count.
17:00:57 <ais523\unfoog> the PSU fan is pretty much the one thing that is almost certainly going to be correctly wired to the PSU
17:00:59 <elliott> Vorpal: You said "like a laptop one".
17:01:11 <elliott> Vorpal: 750W is over the top for just about everything.
17:01:14 <Vorpal> elliott: yes, those are generally below 100 W. So they qualify
17:01:24 <elliott> Vorpal: (A -> B) =/= (B -> A)
17:01:26 <Vorpal> elliott: I know people who had rigs that needed more than 750 W to run
17:01:46 <ais523\unfoog> elliott: what does -> mean there? (I'm assuming =/= means ≠)
17:01:51 <Vorpal> elliott: anyway it gives some room to expand in. 80+ gold certified, so it is reasonably efficient even at non-max load
17:01:55 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: Logical implication.
17:02:19 <ais523\unfoog> elliott: also, 1000W is quite small for an electric heater
17:02:48 <Vorpal> elliott: anyway, I have never seen a PSU intended for a full sized desktop (mid tower or larger) that didn't have a fan
17:03:10 <elliott> Vorpal: They're just not popular, that's all.
17:03:31 <Vorpal> so... chances are, unless you use a laptop, your PSU has a fan
17:03:31 <ais523\unfoog> elliott: do you know why they aren't popular? I assume they would be for the same reason as, say, flatscreens
17:03:46 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: You need good cooling on the rest of your system, case fans and the like.
17:03:51 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: And they don't really scale to higher powers.
17:03:56 <Vorpal> ais523\unfoog: what? Are you suggesting flat monitors are not popular ?
17:04:05 <elliott> Vorpal: Are you illiterate?
17:04:14 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: I gave you advice; take it.
17:04:22 <Vorpal> elliott: I anti-missed a "not"
17:04:28 <elliott> <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: So... doublecheck everything from the power button to the socket to the PSU?
17:04:38 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: It's more productive than complaining that nobody's helping you on IRC...
17:05:02 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover: probably the issue is with the PSU. Since the PSU fan didn't turn on. It might be with the mobo, or the button in theory as well.
17:05:14 <Vorpal> could be something connected incorrectly
17:05:39 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover: and I assume you set the PSU for the right voltage, if it had such a switch? Mine autodetect between UK and US voltages
17:05:40 <ais523\unfoog> Vorpal: an "n't"? I can't see anywhere to put a "not" to make that sentence not sound completely unlike me and still have the desired meaning
17:06:30 <ais523\unfoog> the old UK standard of 240 isn't really used much any more, most devices marketed for Europe have a 225-245 voltage range to cover both UK 240 and standard 230
17:06:36 <Vorpal> ais523\unfoog: in fact I think it supports from 90 V to 260 V or some such. Which is kind of larger than required
17:06:49 <ais523\unfoog> Phantom__Hoover: most PSUs do, unless they're specifically advertised not to
17:07:03 <Vorpal> ais523\unfoog: Sweden used to have 220 V before we switched to 230 V
17:07:12 <ais523\unfoog> the one on the desktop here at work, the switch is a slidy piece of metal the same colour as the case
17:07:30 <Vorpal> same colour eh, the ones I seen were usually red
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17:08:36 <Vorpal> anyway if you put it at 110 V and you used it on 230 V, then chances are your PSU is not alive anymore (hopefully just a fuse). Probably nothing else broke.
17:14:26 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover: anyway, even if the CPU was dead your PSU would probably turn on its fan.
17:14:34 <Vorpal> at least for a short period of time
17:17:31 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: What was it.
17:17:37 <elliott> Were the neutrinos going too fast.
17:17:38 <Phantom__Hoover> The power on switch has a second connection in the front of the case which is disconnected and isn't mentioned in the manual at all.
17:17:47 <elliott> It's the secret connection.
17:18:06 <Phantom__Hoover> *Now* I've graduated to the monitor showing no signs of life whatsoever.
17:18:54 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Did you plug it in.
17:19:05 <elliott> (Yes, all my advice will be this irritating.)
17:19:46 <Phantom__Hoover> Yes, and I checked for any additional power buttons; there were none.
17:20:05 <Vorpal> <Phantom__Hoover> *Now* I've graduated to the monitor showing no signs of life whatsoever. <-- are you using the on board video (if that exists)?
17:20:08 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: The monitor has a power button.
17:20:14 <elliott> Vorpal: There is no on-board video.
17:20:25 <Phantom__Hoover> I plugged it into the graphics card's DVI output (the only video output on the entire computer) using an adaptor provided by the graphics card.
17:20:25 <elliott> However, getting the monitor to turn on seems more important.
17:20:30 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Doesn't matter, get it turned on first.
17:20:38 <elliott> Then you can work on the computer getting its images there.
17:20:40 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover: doesn't the graphics card have other ports?
17:20:43 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Yes there is; or a switch.
17:20:58 <Phantom__Hoover> Vorpal, it has 2 DVI and a mini HDMI; the monitor has only VGA and DVI.
17:21:00 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover: they might hide it quite well for aesthetics
17:21:10 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover: use DVI only if possible
17:21:12 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: The "only video output" apart from an HDMI one.
17:21:15 <elliott> Vorpal: He has a VGA cable.
17:21:24 <elliott> I have already told him to correct this, so don't bother.
17:21:25 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover: otherwise there are two types of DVI: Try the other DVI port
17:21:33 <Vorpal> not all DVI ports provide analogue as well
17:22:16 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover: well I can tell you for certain there is a power button on the monitor. Look in the manual for it. Also check under the front edge
17:22:22 <Vorpal> sometimes they like to hide the buttons
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17:25:22 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover: found it yet?
17:25:57 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover: hah that happens
17:26:13 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover: check the other reasons above
17:26:20 <Vorpal> not all DVI ports provide analogue
17:26:41 * elliott continues debating whether to expediate new computer purchasing to smooth AII development or whether to stay on this machine to ensure better compatibility.
17:26:57 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover: you want the connector on the computer to be DVI-I or DVI-A: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:DVI_Connector_Types.svg
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17:27:54 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover: is the other one that as well? In that case try to switch
17:28:16 <Vorpal> I have one DVI-I and one DVI-D, one DP and one HDMI iirc
17:28:18 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: HDMI is irrelevant.
17:28:22 <elliott> You just need a DVI cable.
17:30:17 <Vorpal> wait seems I have 5 connectors according to xrandr output
17:31:20 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover: anyway, try the monitor connected to your laptop. Just in case. You will of course need to enable the extra monitor in the screen prefs
17:31:45 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover: is the monitor saying "no signal" or such when you unplug the cable?
17:31:51 <Vorpal> And just black screen when plugged in?
17:32:06 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Skip the laptop thing.
17:32:14 <elliott> Waste of time esp. with differing ports.
17:32:18 <Vorpal> well yeah, probably not the monitor at fault
17:33:42 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Also, check the connection of the case to the video card again.
17:34:15 <elliott> Also check the connection to the monitor, ofc.
17:34:56 <elliott> The computer works, the monitor works, the two just don't work together.
17:34:58 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover: oh wait, what about power cables to the GPU?
17:35:01 <Vorpal> they are connected right?
17:35:08 <Vorpal> I need two of them at once
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17:35:45 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover: point is, does the monitor even say "no signal" or such when unplugged. If yes and it doesn't do that when connected to the computer then the GPU is probably okay.
17:36:29 <Phantom__Hoover> The monitor says "going into power saving mode" and goes into standby.
17:36:44 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover: when unplugged? Or when connected to the computer?
17:36:59 <Vorpal> My question is basically if it behaves *differently* when unplugged and connected to the computer.
17:37:11 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover: and when unplugged?
17:37:43 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover: did you reboot the computer after connecting the monitor?
17:38:02 <Vorpal> (it might think nothing is connected. I'm not convinced there is plug-and-play during bios)
17:38:32 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover: tried that on both DVI ports?
17:38:48 <Vorpal> well, can't hurt to check
17:38:49 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Really check the connection in the monitor.
17:38:54 <elliott> VGA is really tough to get in.
17:39:08 <Vorpal> elliott: as long as you secure the screws there won't be a problem
17:39:13 <elliott> Although SCART takes the cake.
17:39:18 <elliott> SCART is physically impossible to plug in.
17:39:27 <Vorpal> SCART is easy to get in, just never *stays* in
17:39:40 <elliott> Wow, SCART is 70s technology.
17:39:53 <elliott> The SCART connector first appeared on television sets in 1977. It became compulsory on all new television sets sold in France starting from January 1980.[2][3]
17:39:55 <Gregor> I have, attached to my school desktop right now, an official Apple-branded DVI-to-DVI adapter.
17:40:07 <Vorpal> elliott: anyway vga is kind of easy to know if you got in. If you managed to fasten the screws then it is in
17:40:10 <elliott> Gregor: Not DVI-to-MiniDVI or whatever?
17:40:18 <Gregor> elliott: Not even DVI-to-DVI-D or something.
17:40:25 <Gregor> elliott: It is a $30 patch cable.
17:40:32 <elliott> Gregor: It's actually a 0m-1m adapter :P
17:40:35 <Gregor> Actually it's a $30 DVI cable that's really really short.
17:40:40 <Vorpal> Gregor: wait a second, what is Apple DVI?
17:40:41 <elliott> If it's just two identical ends right next to each other than that's amazing.
17:40:57 <Gregor> elliott: No, it has about an inch of cable.
17:41:17 <Vorpal> isn't the parsing: (Apple-branded DVI)-to-(DVI)?
17:41:28 <Vorpal> or do you mean Apple-branded (DVI-to-DVI)
17:41:34 <Vorpal> elliott: well it wasn't obvious to me
17:41:37 <Gregor> You rarely parenthesize in the middle of hyphenated phrases X_X
17:41:39 <elliott> That's because you're dumb.
17:41:43 <Vorpal> why would they have DVI-to-DVI?
17:41:51 <elliott> Why would Gregor say that if it wasn't interesting
17:41:56 <elliott> Like, say, for being DVI-to-DVI
17:42:18 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Has it blown up yet.
17:43:42 <Vorpal> I haven't seen a good computer case (wrt putting stuff in it easily) since that old dell case I have
17:44:02 <Vorpal> that has some hinges at the front
17:44:07 <Vorpal> really easy to access anything inside
17:44:40 <Vorpal> with very nice cable routing too
17:45:36 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Open a menu on the monitor.
17:45:38 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover: do you have a pc speaker connected?
17:45:39 <elliott> Don't whine, find the button/touch thing.
17:45:54 <Vorpal> does the computer beep when booting?
17:45:59 <elliott> Vorpal: Uh, pc speakers are onboard.
17:46:12 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Checked monitor connection? Checked adapter connection?
17:46:16 <Vorpal> elliott: at least they didn't use to be
17:46:22 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Startin' to think you should just buy an HDMI cable, man
17:46:25 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Startin' to think you should just buy a DVI cable, man
17:46:32 * elliott makes the worst Frfuuruuduan slips.
17:46:35 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Well, go do it then.
17:47:17 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: OK, observe my official recommendation:
17:47:23 <elliott> - Pat yourself on the back for an assembly well done;
17:47:29 <Vorpal> theoretically the VGA port on the monitor might be dead. It might be worth checking against your laptop if it has a VGA (or even better, DVI) connector
17:47:55 <elliott> I suspect Phantom__Hoover's DVI ports just don't do analogue.
17:48:14 <Vorpal> elliott: elliott: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:DVI_Connector_Types.svg <-- he said it was DVI-I iirc?
17:48:22 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes. I don't believe him.
17:48:44 <Vorpal> elliott: well something might be fried. I wouldn't exclude the posibility
17:49:13 <Vorpal> probably the CPU or RAM in that case.
17:49:27 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Does it beep when it starts up.
17:49:57 <Vorpal> elliott: mine doesn't beep when booting. It will however beep using the onboard Intel HD Audio if required.
17:50:20 <Gregor> "<elliott> Why would Gregor say that if it wasn't interesting"
17:50:28 <Gregor> Right there in the log.
17:50:54 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: It's a PC speaker.
17:50:59 <elliott> It makes an annoying beep whether you have speakers or not.
17:53:08 <elliott> It takes three seconds to check.
17:55:29 <elliott> I guess MODERN MOBOS don't do the beeping thing any more.
17:55:45 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Yeah, just buy a DVI cable.
17:56:32 <Phantom__Hoover> BtW, I can confirm that the graphics card's DVI cables are DVI-I and the monitor's unused DVI port is DVI-D.
17:58:48 <elliott> Vorpal: You've gotta admire Phantom__Hoover's dedication to getting this VAX to run.
17:59:04 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: No, there's one.
17:59:10 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Buy the cheapest.
17:59:40 <monqy> Mr Green always embrace you.
17:59:52 <elliott> Vorpal will explain to Phantom__Hoover how ports are designed.
18:00:41 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: So how loud are the fans.
18:01:06 <Phantom__Hoover> Not all that loud, although I haven't yet run it for more than 30 seconds or so.
18:01:22 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover demonstrates Scottish hardness in the face of 99 dBa.
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18:07:38 <Gregor> NetBSD for Amiga: INSTALLING
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18:39:55 <new2net> my programming teacher gave me a derp problem, and said use ANY language
18:39:58 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Malbolge#External_resources
18:40:08 <elliott> new2net: good luck writing a malbolge program...
18:40:15 <Gregor> Idonno if Malbolge is a good selection for "any" :P
18:40:18 <elliott> some cryptographic skill is recommended
18:40:47 <elliott> "I killed a random mill owner. It wasn't my fault! I just went into his house and picked his pocket to get some practice at doing it, but he caught me and I ran. He chased me out into the wilderness, at which point I got bored of running, figured we were in the middle of a snowy forest in the middle of the night, and stabbed him through the heart. Then I dumped his body in a river. OK, I guess it total
18:41:15 <Gregor> Also an apt description of Malbolge.
18:43:32 <elliott> "Lately I've taken to reanimating the bodies of people who piss me off, then killing them again so they burn up to a pile of ash. Hideous otherwordly punishment for my enemies, and it keeps the roads clear!"
18:43:39 <new2net> The language is named after Malebolge, the eighth level of hell.
18:45:13 <elliott> new2net: They created another one for people who make brainfuck derivatives.
18:45:22 <Gregor> In reality there are zero, in the Divine Comedy there are nine.
18:45:29 <new2net> ++++++++++[>+++++>++++++++++>+++++++++++<<<-]>>>.<+.>+++++++++.<<.+++>>---------.-<.>+++++++.---
18:45:52 <elliott> ^bf ++++++++++[>+++++>++++++++++>+++++++++++<<<-]>>>.<+.>+++++++++.<<.+++>>---------.-<.>+++++++.---
18:46:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, why would the graphics card come packaged with a VGA to DVI adapter if it didn't work?
18:46:03 <EgoBot> 78 ++++++++++[>+>+++++++++++>++++++++++>+++++<<<<-]>>+.---.>.>.<<++.>+.<++++++.<. [774]
18:46:39 <new2net> but your txtgen doesn't leave only prime numbers in each byte
18:47:59 <new2net> no shame in taking the easy road where available...
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18:53:26 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover: any luck?
18:53:38 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, why would the graphics card come packaged with a VGA to DVI adapter if it didn't work? <-- it wouldn't
18:53:45 <Vorpal> unless something is broken
18:53:54 <Vorpal> like the adapter or whatever
18:54:41 <Vorpal> <Phantom__Hoover> BtW, I can confirm that the graphics card's DVI cables are DVI-I and the monitor's unused DVI port is DVI-D. <-- that combo should work just fine, because DVI-I is DVI-A+DVI-D basically
18:55:03 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal will explain to Phantom__Hoover how ports are designed. <-- I only know how the FreeBSD ports work :P
18:55:12 <Gregor> Greatest thing about the BSDs is that every time you mount their native filesystem you get to scream "MOUNT FOR FUCK'S SAKE" (<-- joke noöne will get)
18:55:34 <Vorpal> <elliott> Phantom__Hoover demonstrates Scottish hardness in the face of 99 dBa. <-- you mean Welsh
18:56:13 <Vorpal> besides bagpipes kind of sound nice. Probably not in the long run though.
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18:56:45 <Vorpal> Gregor: I know about UFS mounting under linux.
18:56:52 <new2net> elliott, does EgoBot interpret Malbolge?
18:56:53 <Vorpal> Gregor: never tried it, but I know it is kind of bad
18:57:18 <ais523> new2net: I don't think so, but I'm not sure
18:57:20 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
18:57:28 <ais523> yes, it does, it seems
18:57:53 <new2net> ^malbolge ('&%:9]!~}|z2Vxwv-,POqponl$Hjig%eB@@>}=<M:9wv6WsU2T|nm-,jcL(I&%$#"`CB]V?Tx<uVtT`Rpo3NlF.Jh++FdbCBA@?]!~|4XzyTT43Qsqq(Lnmkj"Fhg${z@>
18:58:22 <Gregor> Vorpal: NOT - THE - JOKE
18:58:44 <Vorpal> Gregor: oh mount.ffs, but no one uses ffs any more
18:58:52 <new2net> !malbolge ('&%:9]!~}|z2Vxwv-,POqponl$Hjig%eB@@>}=<M:9wv6WsU2T|nm-,jcL(I&%$#"`CB]V?Tx<uVtT`Rpo3NlF.Jh++FdbCBA@?]!~|4XzyTT43Qsqq(Lnmkj"Fhg${z@>
18:59:02 <ais523> wow the spambots have been busy recently
18:59:19 <Vorpal> elliott: right, but the tools are mount.ufs iirc
18:59:41 <Vorpal> elliott: so Gregor's joke doesn't work for them
18:59:53 <Vorpal> elliott: because the joke was that the /tool/ is mount.ffs
19:00:32 <Gregor> It's only called UFS on Linux.
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19:00:49 <Vorpal> Gregor: notice UFS and UFS2 in http://www.freebsd.org/projects/bigdisk/index.html
19:00:54 <Gregor> Vorpal: I just watched NetBSD 5.1 mount_ffs
19:00:56 <Vorpal> first hit on ddg for me
19:01:10 <Vorpal> Gregor: well netbsd is like 10 years out of date except on toasters
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19:01:20 <Gregor> Vorpal: Amiga: Mostly like a toaster.
19:01:33 <Vorpal> Gregor: I mainly used freebsd and some openbsd
19:01:50 <Ngevd> I've got data in an Excel spreadsheet, what's the best way to use it in Haskell?
19:01:53 <Vorpal> and I think freebsd is the largest *bsd
19:01:59 <elliott> openbsd "more modern than netbsd" "lol"
19:02:04 <Gregor> Vorpal: I mainly use Linux, because everything I want to run can either run Linux (in which case I don't want BSD), or the only free OS it can run is NetBSD :P
19:02:22 <Ngevd> elliott, then what?
19:02:35 <Vorpal> Ngevd: parsec would work
19:02:39 <Vorpal> might be an easier way
19:02:42 <elliott> Ngevd: search hackage for csv library
19:02:58 <Vorpal> elliott: I meant parsec for the csv data
19:03:18 <Vorpal> Ngevd: or you could use the FFI for accessing MS Office integration stuff
19:03:26 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover: doubtful it will help, but worth a try
19:03:35 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover: remember to unplug the other monitor
19:03:38 <elliott> Ngevd: Vorpal's advice is useless.
19:03:48 <Vorpal> elliott: that stuff about FFI was a joke
19:06:08 <Vorpal> [download] 16.7% of 37.55M at 175.13k/s ETA 03:02 <-- the video is 2 minutes. What a failure.
19:06:27 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover: well then I guess one of the CPU, RAM or GPU are broken
19:06:41 <Gregor> Vorpal: What's that about you getting download speeds that Americans can only dream of?
19:06:55 <Vorpal> Gregor: come on from a good mirror I can get 800 kbps down
19:07:15 <Vorpal> Gregor: youtube: usually 500 kpbs
19:07:28 <Vorpal> (and that was youtube-dl)
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19:10:35 <Gregor> OMG NetBSD extraction SO SLOW
19:11:03 <Vorpal> Gregor: what is the bottle neck?
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19:15:27 <Vorpal> [download] 20.3% of 210.35M at 163.04k/s ETA 17:32 <-- come on, for a 14 minute video
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19:24:50 <ais523> a hate so pure and… blumpkin seeds?
19:27:50 <elliott> ais523: there's a new humble bundle, btw
19:28:04 <ais523> yes, I know, they advertise at me incessantly
19:28:30 <ais523> these bundles come out much faster than I expected; and as a result, they're getting less of my custom than maybe they'd want
19:28:44 <ais523> the inability to buy them after the period ends doesn't help either
19:29:06 <elliott> It's just a really big markup.
19:29:28 <elliott> ais523: Have you even ever played Uplink?
19:29:29 <ais523> well, I mean, without bribing the relevant people
19:29:32 <ais523> elliott: no, I haven't
19:29:37 <ais523> I've heard of it, but not much about it
19:29:48 <elliott> <ais523> well, I mean, without bribing the relevant people
19:29:52 <ais523> I don't even know what genre it is
19:29:53 <elliott> ais523: I was referring to simply being each game
19:30:12 <elliott> ais523: Uplink is a fully-featured implementation of the ridiculous OSes used for hacking in films and TV shows
19:30:26 <elliott> (it even includes an IRC client, although it was removed in a patch)
19:30:41 <elliott> ais523: it's really well done -- you can bring down systems by erasing their OS files with the command line
19:30:48 <elliott> and they never come back up even if you restart the game with another player account
19:31:16 <ais523> presumably you can set the state of the game back to freshly-installed so you can do it again?
19:31:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Crashed systems come back up eventually, and systems aren't persistent.
19:31:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Not if you rm -r /.
19:31:36 <elliott> ais523: Well, sure, but most systems aren't terribly interesting :P
19:31:40 <ais523> but that command doesn't actually /work/
19:31:50 <elliott> ais523: it's not rm -r /, it's del / or something :P
19:31:52 <ais523> what if you forkbomb them?
19:31:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Hmm, they never came back for me, but OK.
19:32:06 <elliott> ais523: The shell isn't *that* good.
19:32:31 <Gregor> It's been extracting ./rescue/[ for multiple minutes now >_>
19:32:44 <ais523> Gregor: why is there a file called [?
19:32:53 <ais523> is it a symlink to test(1)?
19:32:56 <ais523> (even more insane if it isn't)
19:33:58 <Gregor> [ has been a conventional part of UNIX for years.
19:33:59 <HackEgo> /usr/bin/[: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.18, stripped
19:34:10 <Gregor> test and [ are slightly (very slightly) distinct.
19:34:20 <elliott> discussing the same bug report with two different forks of the same project simultaneously
19:34:22 <ais523> Gregor: yes, but I wouldn't have expected to see it in ./rescue
19:34:30 <ais523> elliott: are they test and [?
19:34:56 <Gregor> FFFFFFFFFFF it's still extracting rescue/[
19:35:07 <ais523> perhaps it's infinitely large?
19:35:17 <elliott> Gregor: I suspect it's hung on the filename or something :P
19:36:54 <elliott> hmm, I conclude that the only way this can end up non-awkward is if i convince the two projects to merge
19:37:21 <ais523> does the /original/ have the bug? and is it dead?
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19:45:43 <Gregor> elliott: Nope, finally got past it.
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20:07:06 <ais523> elliott: oh right, I just remembered, kerio is also an ssh fanboy
20:07:23 <ais523> I didn't even realise that was possible
20:08:00 <Gregor> Who ISN'T an SSH fanboy.
20:08:05 <ais523> I mean, you can do worse than SSH
20:08:35 <ais523> <heptagram> ais523, I have a message for you: kerio said: i just realized that rsync and pretty much every DVCS uses ssh - why can't acehack-tiles and/or jettyplay do the same?
20:08:45 <ais523> <kerio> ais523: ssh is awesome and you should use it!
20:08:52 <ais523> [20:05] <ais523> kerio: the use of ssh by git and by rsync is one of the things that made them much harder to port to Windows
20:08:54 <ais523> [20:06] <kerio> and also made them much more awesome
20:09:17 <Gregor> Windows is for losers anyway.
20:09:20 <elliott> ais523: it's amazing how quickly i have come to hate kerio
20:09:44 <elliott> it usually takes at least ten more lines than i've seen
20:09:46 <ais523> anyway, there you go, ssh fanboyism in action
20:10:34 <elliott> ais523: you should make jettyplay use rsh+perl
20:11:01 <ais523> elliott: well, jettyplay connects to public NetHack servers to watch, normally via telnet
20:11:13 <ais523> but kerio removed telnet support from acehack.eu, because ssh was so superior
20:11:17 <ais523> so it doesn't work on AEU at the moment
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20:12:51 <elliott> ais523: hmm, what exactly does ssh give for anonymous connections?
20:12:59 <elliott> authentication overhead, I think, plus compression
20:13:13 <ais523> not sending the password in plaintext
20:13:17 <elliott> oh, and encryption I guess :P
20:13:24 <elliott> ais523: vital nethack passwords
20:13:31 <ais523> kerio did find a really huge security bug in dgamelaunch, and actually got root on someone else's server through it
20:14:01 <elliott> ais523: that's, um, a really immature way to respond to remote holes?
20:14:17 <ais523> well, he didn't do anything destructive with it but edit the homepage and close the hole behind him
20:14:27 <elliott> that sounds destructive to me :P
20:14:52 <ais523> right, but the server admin seemed not to mind
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20:24:37 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: crazy utahraptor! homeslice! oh, i wasn't talking about you here, i have and now god's in on it too, utahraptor. they're quite the whistles in mario, on a whale-watching tour:
20:25:05 <Gregor> Oh fungot, we love you so.
20:25:06 <fungot> Gregor: people in car car simulator trucko boat 3. that's a ' thr' followed that. remember? remember punchette, the power punch", sure but outside of a religious context, but it seems i'm destined to be with you
20:25:33 <Gregor> We should use fungot to set the /topic.
20:25:33 <fungot> Gregor: a good choice, then i'm going to make mistaks so bad that they kill me, and a parallel to all this, as usual, t-rex
20:25:48 <elliott> Gregor: --Gregor "antioptbot" Gregor
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20:29:38 <Sgeo> HUMBLE INTROVERSION BUNDLE
20:31:07 <elliott> <Vorpal> ooh this sounds nice "Humble Introversion Bundle"
20:31:11 <elliott> --the other channel, hours ago
20:31:46 <Sgeo> Is Crayon Physics Deluxe worth it?
20:31:59 <elliott> surely you already have it from another bundle
20:32:12 <Sgeo> I have Aquaria from another bundle
20:32:16 <ais523> Sgeo: it's fun for a while, but becomes a bit repetitive
20:32:43 <ais523> and the physics engine is a little wonky, enough that you can't really do things that the designers didn't think of and have them work with any degree of success
20:33:51 <ais523> and it feels very random (actually, it's sensitivity to small details of input rather than randomness, but that comes to much the same thing in practice)
20:34:13 <Sgeo> Can't really hurt that much to get it, can it?
20:34:39 * elliott hardly thinks Introversion's games are worth less than 2.25 pounds.
20:35:06 * Sgeo currently has $12.83 in his Paypal account...
20:35:16 * elliott paid 4 pounds, because I already have Uplink and am uncertain whether I'll like DEFCON or not, plus already have the other two games, and I spent more than everyone else on the other bundles anyway.
20:37:05 <ais523> elliott: my bank charged me an extra £1.50 for paying in dollars from a pounds-denominated bank account
20:37:48 <elliott> Sgeo: You realise you can add more funds to PayPal acounts.
20:37:55 <ais523> I refuse to use PayPal
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20:38:32 <Sgeo> elliott, not as easily as just using what's currently there
20:38:35 <elliott> ais523: Yes, I fully predicted a response along those lines. I'm sure elaborating will be productive and entertaining for all of us.
20:38:59 <ais523> elliott: heh, somehow I don't believe you
20:39:10 <ais523> but basically, it comes from multiple incidents in which they randomly decided to take people's money
20:39:14 <elliott> Interleave tab width discussion while you're at it!!!
20:40:22 <Ngevd> I FINALLY KNOW WHA I'M DOING!
20:40:29 <Ngevd> WITH A T ON THE END OF WHA
20:42:01 <Sgeo> Someone on Reddit mentioned Slavehack as being like MMO Uplink?
20:43:10 <Ngevd> It should be StdGen -> Bool -> String -> String rather than Int -> Bool -> String -> String
20:45:19 <elliott> Ngevd: Whenever you take an StdGen, you want to output one too
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20:46:02 <elliott> ais523: it does nothing, it's a type
20:46:12 <ais523> what's its intended use, then?
20:46:17 <oerjan> elliott: unless you make an infinite String result, or perhaps even a potentially infinite one
20:46:20 <Sgeo> ais523, a random number generator
20:46:39 <ais523> oh, I see, using it monad-style
20:46:41 <ais523> but without an actual monad
20:46:42 <Sgeo> You can use it to obtain a number and a new RNG
20:46:43 <lambdabot> forall g. (RandomGen g) => g -> (g, g)
20:47:23 <oerjan> or one where you don't want the whole String to be calculated immediately, i guess
20:47:45 <lambdabot> forall g a. (Random a, RandomGen g) => g -> [a]
20:48:28 <lambdabot> forall g a. (Random a, RandomGen g) => g -> (a, g)
20:48:49 * elliott thinks the fact that those aren't in a Random monad is awful.
20:49:02 <oerjan> it occurs to me that splitting :: (RandomGen g) => (g -> a) -> g -> (a, g); splitting f g = second f . split could be useful
20:50:22 <elliott> oerjan: splitting f = fmap f random :P
20:50:30 <elliott> (with correct Random monad)
20:51:06 <elliott> oerjan: * elliott thinks the fact that those aren't in a Random monad is awful.
20:51:29 <elliott> random :: (Random a) => Rand a
20:51:39 <oerjan> elliott: well i guess if RandomGen was an instance of Random - except it's a class, so that would break things
20:51:44 <elliott> runRand :: (RandomGen g) => Rand a -> g -> (a,g) etc.
20:51:52 <elliott> i'm saying that random's type is wrong
20:51:57 <elliott> because it's threading an explicit state monad around instead of just
20:52:09 <Ngevd> I have written a program in Haskell that could be used in lessons to demonstrate why error handling is a good idea
20:52:16 <oerjan> elliott: um do you realize what splitting _does_?
20:53:02 <elliott> oerjan: oh hm, i misread splitting
20:53:49 <Vorpal> why did some fonts go super small in GTK programs suddenly?!
20:54:10 <Ngevd> Okay, that reminds me
20:54:15 <Vorpal> or wait, maybe qt ones
20:54:19 <Ngevd> If I want to use a module, I need to install the module
20:55:35 <Ngevd> elliott: how do install module?
20:56:05 <Ngevd> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/spreadsheet
20:56:13 <elliott> cabal install spreadsheet but uhhhh
20:56:15 <elliott> i would not use that package
20:56:22 <elliott> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/csv
20:56:35 <oerjan> > (evalState . forever . state $ random) $ mkStdGen 42 :: [Int]
20:56:36 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `a' in the constraint:
20:56:48 <Ngevd> No I need to rewrite my program.
20:56:58 <Ngevd> I said Now, not No
20:57:01 <oerjan> > (evalState . sequence . state $ random) $ mkStdGen 42 :: [Int]
20:57:02 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[Control.Monad.Trans.State.Lazy.StateT
20:57:04 <elliott> Ngevd: but anyway, "cabal install pkg"
20:57:18 <lambdabot> forall s a. (s -> (a, s)) -> State s a
20:57:20 <elliott> you shouldn't need to rewrite your program, just the csv input bits P:
20:57:27 <Ngevd> elliott: what if I'm an idiot and using Windows?
20:57:44 <oerjan> elliott: well it _says_ Lazy up there :P
20:58:24 <Vorpal> Ngevd: open cmd.exe and run that stuff I presume?
20:58:30 <oerjan> > (evalState . sequence . repeat . state $ random) $ mkStdGen 42 :: [Int]
20:58:32 <lambdabot> [-3907187990116499535,-2519438828217931933,-8264534369199619667,86887135830...
20:59:29 <lambdabot> Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show (g -> [a])
20:59:46 <Ngevd> > randoms (mkStdGen 42)
20:59:48 <lambdabot> [-3907187990116499535,-2519438828217931933,-8264534369199619667,86887135830...
20:59:49 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) a b. (Monad m) => m a -> m b
20:59:56 <lambdabot> Source not found. I can't hear you -- I'm using the scrambler.
21:00:05 <Vorpal> what package is it in?
21:01:12 <elliott> oerjan: runRandAll :: Rand a -> [a] >:)
21:01:13 <Vorpal> elliott: well it isn't in Prelude if that is what you meant.
21:01:36 <elliott> Vorpal: "package" does not mean what you seem to think it means
21:01:45 <Vorpal> elliott: well, module is what I meant
21:01:49 <elliott> oerjan: runRandAll random g == randoms g
21:02:05 <elliott> oerjan: runRandAll (liftA2 (,) random random) g == guess
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21:06:43 <oerjan> also randoms g, but with [(a,a)] return type?
21:07:41 <elliott> hmm, actually, randoms is very inelegant
21:07:45 <elliott> ideally runRandAll would be
21:07:53 <elliott> runRandAll :: Rand a -> [a] with no g argument
21:07:59 <elliott> and simply return _all possible results_
21:08:07 <elliott> for the random types involved in its computation
21:08:36 <oerjan> > fst $ random (mkStdGen 42) :: [(Int, Int)]
21:08:37 <lambdabot> No instance for (System.Random.Random
21:08:42 <oerjan> > fst $ random (mkStdGen 42) :: (Int, Int)
21:08:43 <lambdabot> No instance for (System.Random.Random
21:09:00 <oerjan> well it would be, if that instance existed
21:09:56 <elliott> bah, MonadRandom doesn't have that
21:10:23 * Vorpal curses this USB memory
21:10:30 <elliott> the obvious way to model running a nondetemrministic computation on a generator is to have it simply magically pick one ofthe results of runRandAll...
21:10:30 <Vorpal> FATs differ but appear to be intact. Use which FAT ?
21:11:13 <oerjan> elliott: that doesn't include the RandomGen class so would be restricted to the StdGen instance...
21:11:26 <elliott> oerjan: well i mean that's just how you'd _think_ about it
21:11:41 <lambdabot> random :: RandomGen g => g -> (a, g)
21:11:42 <lambdabot> randoms :: RandomGen g => g -> [a]
21:11:44 <lambdabot> randomR :: RandomGen g => (a,a) -> g -> (a,g)
21:11:46 <lambdabot> randomRs :: RandomGen g => (a,a) -> g -> [a]
21:12:03 <elliott> oerjan: ideally it'd be something like class (Ix a) => Random a where { something }
21:12:13 <oerjan> i just thought of that
21:12:17 <elliott> point is, runRandAll wouldn't need a generator
21:12:22 <elliott> it'd just pick every single possible value of the type
21:12:35 <oerjan> itym Enum, Bounded has no range
21:12:39 <elliott> ofc you might want a binary tree thing instead if you actually want to use them...
21:13:27 <oerjan> but randomIx :: (RandomGen g, Ix a) => (a,a) -> g -> (a, g) could be written now...
21:13:39 <oerjan> and would work for tuples
21:15:03 <elliott> bah. i am going to sleep rather than think about this. _tomorrow_ I can futz around with random monads.
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21:15:43 <oerjan> oh wait Ix has no way to get _back_ an a value from an Int :(
21:15:56 <oerjan> and Enum has no tuple instance
21:16:10 <oerjan> (well no efficient way)
21:26:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover: so any luck with your computer?
21:26:58 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover: maybe you should get some experienced you know near you to check it out?
21:27:05 <Phantom_Hoover> I want to play WA but elliott is gone and Sgeo is boring.
21:27:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover: WA? Wolfram Alpha?
21:27:20 <Sgeo> Worms: Armageddon
21:27:22 <Ngevd> Western Australia?
21:27:31 <Vorpal> I don't own that game, so I can't join in
21:27:41 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, I don't have my copy of the ISO with mne
21:27:58 <Sgeo> Not sure when I'll ever have it
21:28:54 <Sgeo> Also, I have school in a few hours
21:29:29 <oerjan> wolfram armageddon, the genius overlord game
21:29:58 <Vorpal> `addquote <oerjan> wolfram armageddon, the genius overlord game
21:30:00 <HackEgo> 734) <oerjan> wolfram armageddon, the genius overlord game
21:30:43 <lambdabot> Plugin `pl' failed with: thread killed
21:31:27 <lambdabot> Plugin `pl' failed with: thread killed
21:31:33 <lambdabot> pointless: sorry, nothing to resume.
21:31:36 <ais523> that's quite an @pl you gave it
21:31:50 <Vorpal> what pl was it he gave it?
21:32:09 <oerjan> it might still have been on the one that crashed yesterday, and which started the day before that
21:32:16 <oerjan> @pl ap id id (ap id id)
21:32:20 <lambdabot> optimization suspended, use @pl-resume to continue.
21:32:33 <lambdabot> optimization suspended, use @pl-resume to continue.
21:32:47 <Vorpal> oerjan: why is that doing that?
21:32:49 <lambdabot> optimization suspended, use @pl-resume to continue.
21:33:19 <oerjan> Vorpal: because ap is SKI S and it tries to rewrite ap x y z as x z (y z)
21:33:55 <lambdabot> Plugin `pl' failed with: thread killed
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21:34:40 <Vorpal> oerjan: is there a way to do it properly?
21:35:03 <oerjan> however, it seems like the thread killing only happens based on something like cpu time, so the other day i could resume it despite a day having passed :P
21:35:26 <oerjan> Vorpal: um S I I (S I I) _is_ an infinite loop in SKI calculus
21:35:43 <Vorpal> oerjan: I can't say I ever studied SKI much
21:35:53 <lambdabot> Prelude appendFile :: FilePath -> String -> IO ()
21:35:53 <lambdabot> System.IO appendFile :: FilePath -> String -> IO ()
21:35:53 <lambdabot> Control.Monad ap :: Monad m => m (a -> b) -> m a -> m b
21:36:13 <oerjan> it's the (e ->) monad, as usual for @pl
21:38:29 <oerjan> @pl ap ap const (ap (const (ap ap (ap (ap ap const)))) const)
21:38:29 <lambdabot> ap ap const (ap ap (ap (ap ap const)) . const)
21:40:04 <oerjan> @unpl ap ap const (ap ap (ap (ap ap const)) . const)
21:40:04 <lambdabot> ((\ m n -> m >>= \ k -> n >>= \ j -> return (k j)) >>= \ e -> (\ a _ -> a) >>= \ d -> return (e d)) (\ r -> ((\ ab ac -> ab >>= \ z -> ac >>= \ y -> return (z y)) >>= \ t -> (\ ai -> ((\ au av -> au
21:40:04 <lambdabot> >>= \ as -> av >>= \ ar -> return (as ar)) >>= \ al -> (\ b _ -> b) >>= \ ak -> return (al ak)) >>= \ af -> ai >>= \ ae -> return (af ae)) >>= \ s -> return (t s)) (\ _ -> r))
21:41:14 <oerjan> Vorpal: however, ap may be the only thing @pl handles which causes actual duplication during simplification, so that it can loop
21:42:06 <oerjan> @pl (\x -> x x) (\x -> x x)
21:42:10 <lambdabot> optimization suspended, use @pl-resume to continue.
21:43:47 <oerjan> @pl ap id id (join id)
21:44:10 <oerjan> hm it's possible it only introduces join at the end of the previous simplifications
21:44:50 <lambdabot> ((\ d -> d >>= \ c -> c) >>= \ a -> a) (\ f -> f >>= \ e -> e)
21:44:58 <oerjan> @pl ((\ d -> d >>= \ c -> c) >>= \ a -> a) (\ f -> f >>= \ e -> e)
21:45:27 <oerjan> it looks like it _could_ have made join duplicate, but doesn't try
21:47:28 <oerjan> (btw none of these expressions type in actual haskell)
21:47:59 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type:
21:48:00 <lambdabot> Probable cause: `join' is applied to too few arguments
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21:48:19 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: m = (->) (m a)
21:48:19 <lambdabot> Probable cause: `id' is applied to too few arguments
21:48:19 <lambdabot> In the first argument of `join', namely `id'
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22:23:36 <kallisti> I like there's this huge reaction of "looool stop being lazy get a job"
22:23:41 <kallisti> in response to Occupy protestors
22:24:21 <kallisti> that gives you a job if you /really/ want one.
22:42:31 <quintopia> kallisti: that is my dad's view. doesn't help that all the major news outlets only show the "alternative types" and not the regular people
22:42:51 <quintopia> except for the daily show. it showed some regularish people. does that count as a major news outlet?
22:44:56 <kallisti> NPR has pretty coverage of Occupy as well.
22:45:12 <kallisti> all audio/writing/photographs mostly
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22:51:40 <kallisti> I don't really think Occupy will accomplish anything unless it gets more people.
22:51:48 <kallisti> in other words, if the unemployment rate goes up
22:51:52 <kallisti> and people have nothing else to do
22:52:28 <Phantom_Hoover> So basically you're saying it's in Occupy's best interests to destroy the jobs of hard-working Americans everywhere?
22:53:49 <kallisti> Occupy's best interest is not to have further economic crises.
22:54:23 <Phantom_Hoover> But this would be worsening of an existing crisis to drive home their point.
22:55:16 <kallisti> I don't think Occupy should go make more people jobless
22:55:21 <kallisti> because that... makes no sense.
22:56:11 <kallisti> wow switzerland has a 2.1% unemploy rate
22:57:58 <pikhq> Monaco has the advantage of having a population of 35,986.
22:58:20 <kallisti> but still that's amazing that /everyone/ has a job.
22:58:41 * kallisti decides to become a citizen and then FUCK UP THEIR STATS HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
22:59:34 <kallisti> so basically a bunch of rich Europeans live there so they can gamble and avoid taxes.
23:05:51 <kallisti> Most of the Belarusian economy remains state-controlled[93] and has been described as "Soviet-style."[124] Thus, 51.2% of Belarusians are employed by state-controlled companies, 47.4% are employed by private Belarusian companies (of which 5.7% are partially foreign-owned), and 1.4% are employed by foreign companies.
23:06:37 <Phantom_Hoover> * kallisti decides to become a citizen and then FUCK UP THEIR STATS HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
23:06:59 <Phantom_Hoover> You realise that a) the cost of living will be huge and b) they're under no obligation to let you in.
23:07:30 <kallisti> and no I actually hadn't thought about that
23:08:55 <kallisti> 1. If you are employed or have been offered to work for a Monegasque company within the principality of Monaco
23:08:58 <kallisti> If you are wanting to set up a new business in Monaco, in which case the residency will only be given once the company has been officially registered.
23:09:01 <kallisti> If you can prove that you have a certain net wealth and can leave a minimum capital balance in your Monaco account. This amount is at the discretion of the Monaco bank.
23:09:11 <kallisti> you have to meet one of those three criteria
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23:17:24 <pikhq> Is that the requirements for *citizenship*?
23:18:29 <kallisti> "prove that you have a certain net wealth" I wonder how much that is typically
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23:19:42 <kallisti> I guess everyone is technically "employed" in Monaco because they either own a business, work for a business, or have so much money that they don't really need a job.
23:20:18 <pikhq> 'Cept there's native citizens.
23:23:19 <kallisti> Monaco's population is unusual in that the native Monegasques are a minority in their own country comprising 21.6% of the population. The largest group are French nationals at 28.4%, followed by Monegasque (21.6%), Italian (18.7%), British (7.5%), Belgian (2.8%), German (2.5%), Swiss (2.5%) and US nationals (1.2%).
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23:31:37 <kallisti> huh though apparently the GDP (PPP) per capita in Monaco is ranked 31st
23:33:07 <kallisti> with nominal GDP per capita, Monaco ranks first (in rankings where it's actually /included/)
23:33:23 <kallisti> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita
23:34:17 <kallisti> the cost of living in Monaco is ridiculous
23:35:56 <kallisti> and Norway is apparently awesome both in terms of nominal and PPP GDP per capita.
23:36:13 <kallisti> and is also not a micro-nation
23:39:31 <kallisti> oerjan: wtf, so you've alternated between the same two prime ministers for the last 14 years or so?
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23:54:20 <kallisti> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurabia
23:54:23 <kallisti> wow this is incredibly stupid.
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