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00:01:31 <zzo38> \note{Why does Kjugobe's note have a reference to a footnote in this book?}
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00:07:38 <zzo38> My D&D character (Iuckqlwviv Kjugobe) wrote a note while in prison. In the recording, I added a footnote reference in the note text, and it is a reference to a footnote in the recording book (not in the Kjugobe's note itself!). The footnote says "Why does Kjugobe's note have a reference to a footnote in this book?"
00:13:32 <Gregor> (Beware, bad joke ahead)
00:19:12 <zzo38> What does "NOTECEPTION" mean?
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00:34:55 <zzo38> Do you like this kind of books writing?
00:35:49 <kallisti> zzo38: noteception is a horrible joke referencing the movie Inception
00:35:54 <kallisti> which features nested dreaming.
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00:37:46 <zzo38> Yes I have seen that movie. And I thought of a few things relating to the book called Godel, Escher, Bach. I thought someone on the team that made that movie had read that book but the other people said it didn't. And then I looked it up and found that I was correct, I think it was the people who wrote the music for that movie
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00:58:49 <HackEgo> Libster`: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
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01:22:46 <zzo38> Does it mean anything when the ascendant is square to the midheaven (meaning they are 90 degrees apart)? I know it means the descendant and antiheaven and midheaven and ascendant are all 90 degrees (or 180 degrees) apart from each other. And it occurs at 13:10 today in my local timezone and local area. And at 01:08 tomorrow (twice per day).
01:22:53 <zzo38> Tomorrow it is at 13:06
01:23:15 <zzo38> The day after at 13:02
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01:49:36 <GreaseMonkey> hmm, something that comes to mind... would being able to have multiple things call a function and returning possibly different values for each caller be a good thing or a bad thing?
01:50:12 <zzo38> GreaseMonkey: In what context? What program are you trying to write?
01:51:22 <GreaseMonkey> actually zzo38, are you familiar with functional programming languages?
01:55:05 <zzo38> GreaseMonkey: Yes I am familiar with functional programming
01:55:11 <GreaseMonkey> tbqh i'm not entirely sure how this would work
01:57:37 <kallisti> GreaseMonkey: perl allows things of that nature.
01:57:58 <zzo38> In pure functional programming such as Haskell and whatever, no function should ever return different results when given the same parameters, although a macro might do so (Haskell doesn't have macros, though)
01:58:03 <GreaseMonkey> i mean having multiple things calling a function from different "ports"
01:58:28 <GreaseMonkey> and stuff dealing with those would get different return values
01:58:39 <zzo38> GreaseMonkey: Could you make parameters? I think Haskell can do something like that with classes, and Perl can probably do that too, in a different way
01:59:26 <zzo38> Because Haskell program can return different thing depending on the types by defining the instance for each type. And in Perl, I think you can define in terms of scalar or vector or numeric or boolean context, or whatever
01:59:29 <GreaseMonkey> e.g. funct spi_a(msg_a) spi_b(msg_b) { touch(msg_b); return(spi_b) msg_a; return(spi_a) msg_b; }
01:59:50 <zzo38> GreaseMonkey: O, now I understand what you mean.
02:00:16 <GreaseMonkey> thread A: r = msg_a("bacon"); \ thread B: r = msg_b("cheese");
02:00:35 <zzo38> OK now I think I understand better.
02:02:38 <GreaseMonkey> i'm just not sure how that would work in the grand scheme of things or why you would even bother aside from a few rare cases
02:02:53 <zzo38> I don't know quite how that would work either.
02:03:27 <GreaseMonkey> it might be useful for functional programming, though, but i think you could just create ports of some form
02:03:55 <GreaseMonkey> actually i don't think that would make much sense
02:04:39 <zzo38> Can you describe exactly how your example program is going to work?
02:05:43 <GreaseMonkey> i might be thinking of a case where you'd use call/cc
02:05:49 <zzo38> Describe what output you are expecting. Is "msg_a" the name of the function call or the parameter?
02:06:55 <zzo38> Then what does r = msg_a("bacon"); mean?
02:07:42 <zzo38> Are "spi_a" and "spi_b" two names for the same function?
02:07:59 <GreaseMonkey> two interfaces to the same function, yielding two potentially different results
02:08:20 <GreaseMonkey> i might be thinking of "yield", as opposed to "call/cc"
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02:33:58 <zzo38> And in which programming language(s) do you attempt to make something like that?
02:47:22 <zzo38> Many programming languages have yield and call/cc. Can you give any better examples including expected output of what you are trying to make?
02:52:47 <zzo38> Or at least a better description of what you are trying to make (even if you don't have examples)?
03:12:20 <kallisti> GreaseMonkey: I'm guessing perl contexts doesn't really count as this concept?
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06:22:27 <zzo38> Is it possible to check which functions in a Haskell program are getting stuck and causing infinite loops if running in GHCi?
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06:43:23 <zzo38> OK, I managed to correct it. I still don't know how to do that but I did something else instead, such as forcing show of things in error messages to check which are being evaluated, and making IO actions that show things and then result in errors.
06:44:50 <zzo38> Now this code works: createDVI "test.dvi" 1000 dviUnitsTeX >>= shipOut . Page (pageNum 1) [((0, 0), Rule 100000 200000)] >>= finishDVI
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06:59:13 <zzo38> And of course this is also the example of a way to use this DVI program. You can make multiple pages in the same way. Because createDVI results in (IO DocStat) and shipOut is (Page -> IO DocStat) and the third constructor to Page is DocStat, and finishDVI is (DocStat -> IO ()) so you can chain it together whatever you want it to do so.
06:59:50 <zzo38> (It is a different DocStat value every time; and they must be sequenced correctly otherwise you will get an invalid output)
07:02:41 <zzo38> s/third constructor to Page/third field of constructor Page/
07:04:37 <zzo38> Does this seem reasonable way to make the program, to you?
07:06:25 <itidus20> if only alonzo church would have anticipated the computer terminal...
07:06:54 <zzo38> itidus20: What do you think it would be if he did so?
07:07:07 <itidus20> i just plucked his name at random
07:07:21 <itidus20> basically if any of these early guys had anticipated the "hello world"
07:08:00 <itidus20> hmm.. maybe i'm not fully understanding the reality though
07:08:13 <itidus20> what output did babbage's machines use?
07:08:55 <zzo38> We have esoteric programming so that you can make up stuff whatever we try to do so. Make up some with unusual outputs to see experiment on these things
07:09:30 <zzo38> I don't know what the output is.
07:09:37 <itidus20> i should really read up on this instead of using #esoteric as a manpage
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11:07:25 <Patashu> whee, beat the freeware version of mesh falling hero
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13:14:56 <oerjan> <rakesh> i am the god <-- darn wouldn't you know i missed him
13:15:07 <oerjan> I HAD SO MANY QUESTIONS
13:15:16 <oerjan> also a punch in the face
13:15:53 <oerjan> or eldritch tentacles, whatever
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13:45:40 <lambdabot> Data.IntMap deleteFindMax :: IntMap a -> (a, IntMap a)
13:45:40 <lambdabot> Data.IntMap deleteFindMin :: IntMap a -> (a, IntMap a)
13:45:41 <lambdabot> Data.Graph.Inductive.Internal.Queue queueGet :: Queue a -> (a, Queue a)
13:47:05 <lambdabot> Graphics.Rendering.OpenGL.GL.Colors lightModelLocalViewer :: StateVar Capability
13:47:05 <lambdabot> Graphics.Rendering.OpenGL.GL.CoordTrans Modelview :: GLsizei -> MatrixMode
13:47:12 <lambdabot> Data.Sequence viewl :: Seq a -> ViewL a
13:47:25 <oerjan> that one is also sort of related
13:47:52 <oerjan> except it has its own data type rather than a tuple, with an empty option
13:50:05 <kallisti> > let uncons (a:b) = (a,b) in map uncons [1,2,3,4]
13:50:07 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `e_11234' at <in...
13:50:25 <kallisti> > let uncons (a:b) = (a,b) in map uncons (tails [1,2,3,4])
13:50:27 <lambdabot> [(1,[2,3,4]),(2,[3,4]),(3,[4]),(4,[]),*Exception: <interactive>:3:4-23: Non...
13:52:27 <lambdabot> Data.Maybe catMaybes :: [Maybe a] -> [a]
13:52:27 <lambdabot> Data.Maybe maybeToList :: Maybe a -> [a]
13:52:28 <lambdabot> Prelude sequence :: Monad m => [m a] -> m [a]
13:52:56 <kallisti> > let uncons [] = Nothing; uncons (a:b) = Just (a,b) in map uncons . catMaybes $ tails [1,2,3,4]
13:52:58 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `Data.Maybe.Maybe [t]'
13:53:08 <kallisti> > let uncons [] = Nothing; uncons (a:b) = Just (a,b) in catMaybes . map uncons $ tails [1,2,3,4]
13:53:11 <lambdabot> [(1,[2,3,4]),(2,[3,4]),(3,[4]),(4,[])]
13:54:32 <lambdabot> forall a b c. (a -> b -> c) -> (a, b) -> c
13:55:18 <kallisti> > let uncons [] = Nothing; uncons = uncurry (:) in undefined -uh, can you do this?
13:55:19 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `,'
13:55:28 <kallisti> > let uncons [] = Nothing; uncons = uncurry (:) in undefined --uh, can you do this?
13:55:29 <lambdabot> Equations for `uncons' have different numbers of arguments
13:56:00 <oerjan> and besides it wouldn't work even with the right number
13:56:17 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `(a, [a])'
13:56:33 <lambdabot> forall a b c. ((a, b) -> c) -> a -> b -> c
13:57:28 <lambdabot> (*Exception: Prelude.head: empty list
13:57:46 <lambdabot> forall (a :: * -> * -> *) b d c. (ArrowChoice a) => a b d -> a c d -> a (Either b c) d
14:01:52 <kallisti> not quite what I was looking for, but it doesn't matter.
14:02:43 <oerjan> what you're looking for has no short formulation, i think
14:03:04 <fizzie> toNonEmpty :: [a] -> Maybe (NonEmpty a), but doesn't seem to be in lambdabot's Everything You Could Ever Need.
14:16:18 <fizzie> > let mfilter p ma = do a <- ma; if p a then return a else mzero in map (mfilter (not . null) . Just) [[], [1,2,3]] -- mfilter copied from Control.Monad
14:17:02 <fizzie> I don't know what's up with that.
14:17:06 <lambdabot> forall a (m :: * -> *). (Monad m) => (a -> m Bool) -> [a] -> m [a]
14:17:17 <fizzie> That's like right next to it, at least based on some hackage-reading.
14:18:00 <oerjan> probably a very recent addition
14:18:39 <Deewiant> New in base-4.3.0.0, evidently.
14:19:23 <kallisti> three finals on the same day. looking forward to it.
14:21:02 <fizzie> Deewiant: I keep forgetting this stuff, did you actually finish that AI course last year? I'd suppose. (It's going to be lectured now for the last time, in spring 2012.)
14:22:31 <Deewiant> I don't usually get as far as submitting a final project report without also going to the exam and passing it :-)
14:23:34 <fizzie> I didn't really remember whether that happened, either. But every year there's a nonzero number of people from both the "exam done, project not" and "project done, exam not" groups.
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16:09:24 <kallisti> @oeis 1 912 499592 43582348726987 2398859982734987
16:09:25 <lambdabot> Plugin `oeis' failed with: thread killed
16:10:00 <lambdabot> Plugin `oeis' failed with: thread killed
16:19:22 <fizzie> That looks like the bestest pluggin' plugin.
16:32:28 <lambdabot> The natural numbers. Also called the whole numbers, the counting numbers or ...
16:32:28 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,...
16:32:46 <lambdabot> Certainly in the next 50 years we shall see a woman president, perhaps sooner than you think. A woman can and should be able to do any political job that a man can do.
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16:36:55 <lambdabot> I can take it. The tougher it gets, the cooler I get.
16:37:12 <lambdabot> Voters quickly forget what a man says.
16:37:19 <lambdabot> Any lady who is first lady likes being first lady. I don't care what they say, they like it.
16:37:44 <lambdabot> Scrubbing floors and emptying bedpans has as much dignity as the Presidency.
16:38:37 <lambdabot> Don't try to take on a new personality; it doesn't work.
16:38:39 <Phantom_Hoover> @vixen But what about a president who scrubs floors and empties bedpans?
16:38:40 <lambdabot> I can see clearly now... that I was wrong in not acting more decisively and more forthrightly in dealing with Watergate.
16:39:19 <lambdabot> I can see clearly now... that I was wrong in not acting more decisively and more forthrightly in dealing with Watergate.
16:40:44 <lambdabot> Voters quickly forget what a man says.
16:42:38 <Phantom_Hoover> @vixen My, that's a surprisingly small quotes database you have there.
16:42:39 <lambdabot> I don't know anything that builds the will to win better than competitive sports.
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17:03:30 <quintopia> nixon only said fifteen things in his life
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17:10:59 <fizzie> fungot: What do you think about that @vixen thing?
17:11:00 <fungot> fizzie: the shadow-haunted landscapes of fnord, and lot no. fnord, " the amulet that damned thing" the very apex of happy domestic fnord whilst small kittens become objects to adore, fnord,
17:14:27 <Gregor> fungot: Tell me a beautiful love sonnet.
17:14:27 <fungot> Gregor: considerable number would believe him. he it is who shall fnord our return and sing of the days to come when fauns and dryads and satyrs, suggested the fnord of that unpleasantly undulating column on the far-off ipswich road.
17:15:11 <Gregor> fungot: I'm really getting quite tired of your fnording fnords.
17:15:11 <fungot> Gregor: after many eons men came to the land of lomar, and the stealthy whirring and flapping of those accursed fnord closer and closer to a grasp of the secret laboratory. i speak of wests decadence, but must add that some were incised and fnord from the air.
17:17:15 <fizzie> Yeah, that particular style has a bit too many of them.
17:18:47 <Deewiant> I derive amusement from seeing the words that aren't fnords but likely would be in other styles, like "undulating"
17:20:34 <fizzie> Deewiant: It only appears three times in the source material, so it's not too far from being a fnord.
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17:22:42 <quintopia> why are there fnords in multiple styles?
17:23:13 <quintopia> does it insert a fnord wherever it can't find another passage with that word to hook up to?
17:23:27 <fizzie> It doesn't work quite like that.
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17:23:36 <fizzie> It's a n-gram model, not a "keep quoting and jump around" model.
17:23:40 <Sgeo|web> No one else got it either, so it's tied.
17:24:06 <fizzie> Anyhoo, the older training script mapped all occurs-only-once words into a special "UNK" token, and fungot renders that token as "fnord" when converting back from token indices to words.
17:24:06 <fungot> fizzie: the doom that was one day to be there. confused memories mixed themselves with his mathematics, though the twilight of morning.
17:29:21 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft* nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
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17:39:50 <itidus20> i woder if /\/\I keyoard is just shit....
17:40:11 <Gregor> I wonder whether you're missing the 'Y' key, or just don't know how to spell "my" ...
17:41:01 <itidus20> or if i rattle /\/\y keyoards too /\/\u(h while (lea|\| i |\| g....oy \/ey
17:41:40 <itidus20> 6 keys te/\/\p re/\/\o\/ed while ............. |3 l a h
17:42:14 <fungot> Selected style: qwantz (Dinosaur Comics transcriptions 2003-2011)
17:42:19 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: a lot! god, just forget how to talk! i just forgot that when i said she was dead before.'"
17:43:30 <itidus20> testing sigh ok its good enough
17:43:40 <itidus20> i absolutely hate removing my spacebar
17:44:41 <Gregor> Dood, that's like music to my ears (re fung-ot)
17:45:03 <Gregor> "A lot! God, just forget how to talk! Oh, I just forgot that \ when I said she was deaaaaaad befoooooooooooore!"
17:45:42 <itidus20> i tend to rattle my kb around a lot when cleaning.. im not sure if it damages it much that way
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19:19:59 <SgeoN1> kallisti, should I stop updating you?
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20:16:00 -!- Gregor has set topic: #esoteric is a second-generation, outside–in, pull-based, multiple-stakeholder, multiple-scale, high-automation, agile methodology. It describes a cycle of interactions with well-defined outputs, resulting in the delivery of working, tested software that matters. | Everyone in #esoteric is ẌTREME | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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20:19:03 <elliott> 21:45:41: <oerjan> <elliott> Maybe I'll just start talking about @ whenever anyone disagrees with me on reddit. <-- and then you can exchange strategy tips with Zephir_AWT
20:19:04 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
20:19:05 <elliott> 21:45:55: <oerjan> sorry, he's Zephir_Banned now
20:19:07 <elliott> 21:46:10: <oerjan> or was that Zephir_Banned2
20:19:10 <elliott> the aether wave theory guy?
20:19:45 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:20:10 <elliott> <elliott> 21:45:41: <oerjan> <elliott> Maybe I'll just start talking about @ whenever anyone disagrees with me on reddit. <-- and then you can exchange strategy tips with Zephir_AWT
20:20:10 <elliott> <elliott> 21:45:55: <oerjan> sorry, he's Zephir_Banned now
20:20:10 <elliott> <elliott> 21:46:10: <oerjan> or was that Zephir_Banned2
20:20:10 <elliott> <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
20:20:10 <elliott> <elliott> the aether wave theory guy?
20:20:58 <elliott> oerjan: is there any actual evidence he's a different person to the originator of the theory? :)
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20:22:38 <oerjan> elliott: i thought nearly everyone assumed they were the same...
20:23:00 <elliott> i see the wiki is now completely unusable
20:23:09 <elliott> ais523: can you disable registration?
20:23:30 <oerjan> <ais523> No, only graue can do that.
20:23:53 <elliott> oerjan: that's a terrible imitation of ais523's style
20:24:40 <elliott> 03:22:06: -!- rakesh has joined #esoteric.
20:24:40 <elliott> 03:22:15: <rakesh> who i sthis
20:24:40 <elliott> 03:22:17: <rakesh> i am the god
20:24:41 <ais523> well, I would have said basically that, just in different words
20:25:23 <elliott> ais523: I don't suppose you can... stop new page creation?
20:25:36 <ais523> nor can I even tell when a user registers, without polling the user list
20:25:54 <oerjan> elliott: right, the only aspects of his style i _tried_ to imitate, i remembered wrong :P
20:26:04 <elliott> oerjan: heh, which were that?
20:26:17 <oerjan> capitalization and punctuation
20:26:19 <elliott> 07:06:25: <itidus20> if only alonzo church would have anticipated the computer terminal...
20:26:19 <elliott> 07:06:54: <zzo38> itidus20: What do you think it would be if he did so?
20:26:19 <elliott> 07:07:07: <itidus20> i just plucked his name at random
20:26:26 <oerjan> turns out his is identical to mine there
20:28:23 <ais523> well, /I/ can get a decent view of Recent Changes, even if nobody else can ("hide my edits")
20:28:35 <oerjan> if only the marquis de sade would have anticipated hospital romance novels
20:29:18 <elliott> ais523: um apart from all the spambot edits
20:29:23 <elliott> that you haven't got to yet.
20:29:31 <elliott> (yes, there's none now, but you're not on 24/7)
20:29:39 <elliott> `addquote <oerjan> if only the marquis de sade would have anticipated hospital romance novels
20:29:45 <ais523> well, I can delete them all in a couple of minutes
20:29:47 <HackEgo> 747) <oerjan> if only the marquis de sade would have anticipated hospital romance novels
20:29:57 <ais523> spambots are really good for getting me to memorise the keyboard shortcuts of all applicable programs
20:30:11 <oerjan> elliott: hey without context?
20:30:27 <HackEgo> *poof* <oerjan> if only the marquis de sade would have anticipated hospital romance novels
20:30:39 <elliott> `addquote <itidus20> if only alonzo church would have anticipated the computer terminal... <zzo38> itidus20: What do you think it would be if he did so? <itidus20> i just plucked his name at random [...] <oerjan> if only the marquis de sade would have anticipated hospital romance novels
20:30:42 <HackEgo> 747) <itidus20> if only alonzo church would have anticipated the computer terminal... <zzo38> itidus20: What do you think it would be if he did so? <itidus20> i just plucked his name at random [...] <oerjan> if only the marquis de sade would have anticipated hospital romance novels
20:31:19 <itidus20> i was thinking that, there is this great divide between a computers internal mathematics and calculations, and it's input output systems..
20:31:42 <itidus20> probably i'm thinking on useless tangents again
20:31:46 <ais523> IO doesn't actually exist, it's just an illusion created by humans
20:32:29 <itidus20> not to be offensive, but that kind of statement always depends on some undefined meaning of existence
20:33:14 <oerjan> itidus20: haskell is partly about making that divide more explicit
20:33:44 <itidus20> ais523: your comment it seems to hint at ancient ideas of the percieved vs the actual
20:34:11 <ais523> I'm still unconvinced anything actually exists, it seems more complex than the alternative where nothing exists
20:34:33 <itidus20> theres about million books on the subject
20:34:51 <oerjan> ais523: well the thing is that only one of those alternatives can simulate the other
20:35:12 <ais523> aha, but the version with nothing doesn't /have/ to simulate the version with something
20:36:09 <elliott> ais523: except you have to explain your own experiences...
20:36:43 <ais523> not really; if nothing exists, then there's no need to explain anything
20:37:26 <elliott> ais523: you can't just contradict yourself and say that you don't have to explain the contradiction because [conclusion]
20:37:33 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, but /something/ manifestly exists, for appropriate values of 'exists', 'something', 'manifestly' and, in fact, 'but'.
20:38:05 <ais523> elliott: if nothing exists, neither does the need to explain away contradictions
20:38:13 <ais523> what I'm saying is that there'd be loads of contradictions, but they wouldn't matter
20:38:31 <elliott> ais523: you _are_ just trolling, right?
20:38:36 <ais523> do you really think the universe is self-consistent? and do you know much about how difficult it is for systems to be self-consistent
20:38:38 <ais523> elliott: I'm not entirely sure
20:38:40 <elliott> logic doesn't work that way. (even if you say it doesn't matter if it doesn't work that way.)
20:38:52 <ais523> I think it seems unlikely that the universe is based on logic
20:39:04 <itidus20> an illusion exists as an illuision rather than what it purported to be
20:39:16 <elliott> ais523: the universe isn't a set of axioms, so the question is incoherent
20:39:30 <itidus20> like, the rope exists.. the illusion of the snake exists :P
20:40:06 <ais523> elliott: anyway, these sorts of thoughts, despite being probably nonsensical, is how I escaped from my depression recently
20:41:33 <oerjan> too much logic causes depression, i think
20:42:01 <lambdabot> I reject the cynical view that politics is a dirty business.
20:42:06 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving").
20:42:14 <lambdabot> The presidency has many problems, but boredom is the least of them.
20:44:28 <HackEgo> 2011-11-17.txt:03:56:38: <elliott> CakeProphet: no it's more like "let's look more like the conservatives because they keep winning" :P
20:45:15 <HackEgo> 2011-09-15.txt:22:44:52: <HackEgo> 2011-09-15.txt:22:44:48: <itidus21> `log crossaint
20:45:36 <HackEgo> 2010-06-29.txt:23:59:09: <cpressey> "rom the Earth perspective, Martian software is just another strange, mutually incompatible doohickey. Welcome aboard! Alas, our mudball is already ornamented with many such curios. They stick quite well."
20:46:02 <HackEgo> 2011-08-09.txt:20:41:27: <olsner> *croissants
20:46:35 -!- Zuu has joined.
20:46:39 <HackEgo> 2010-03-03.txt:03:37:30: <pikhq> This is America -- the country of the pizza bagel.
20:50:20 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
20:54:30 <oerjan> i must conclude that my usual grocery chain store this year has a campaign to gradually exterminate from their assortment any products that i actually use
20:54:52 <oerjan> you may think this paranoid, but the evidence is gradually becoming overwhelming.
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21:00:12 <Ngevd> I'm a bloody idiotr
21:00:29 <Ngevd> In more ways than one
21:00:32 <oerjan> well then get to a hospital, sheesh!
21:00:45 <Ngevd> Just a little blood
21:01:17 <oerjan> blood loss has been shown to have severe side effects in animal research
21:08:32 <Ngevd> I like the most recent Freefall
21:08:50 <Ngevd> The most recent xkcd was good as recent xkcds go, but not memorable
21:09:00 <Ngevd> In that I remember liking it but don't remember it
21:14:30 <elliott> Gregor: I just wanted to link you to a GC to benchmark GGGGGGGGC against :P
21:15:02 <Ngevd> Is NAK essentially (Homestuck aside) "I'm not talking to you!"?
21:15:27 <Ngevd> elliott, I still asked a question
21:15:29 <Gregor> Ngevd: Also, NAK is almost exactly the opposite of that.
21:15:53 <elliott> Gregor: http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/n2mws/ghc_commit_allow_the_number_of_capabilities_to_be/c360cae?context=1 has the link; it's OpenJDK source code patched to use Azul Systems' stuff (requires kernel patches/module that are included)
21:16:05 <Gregor> Ngevd: NAK is negative acknowledgement, i.e. "I didn't get a message, please resend"
21:16:06 <elliott> And I think you need an x86 with virtualisation support
21:16:09 <Gregor> So it's more like "Please talk to me more"
21:16:57 <Gregor> elliott: I ... see no benchmark?
21:17:12 <elliott> Gregor: You already have a benchmark of GGGGGC vs. Java, do you not?
21:17:28 <elliott> Gregor: s/OpenJDK you used for that/the OpenJDK from there/, no?
21:17:50 <Gregor> Their OpenJDK has (slightly) lower throughput than Sun's, it just has lower pause times.
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21:18:26 <elliott> Gregor: Fair enough, just thought you might not know there's a source release
21:19:03 <Ngevd> If we could travel at light-speed, it would take round-about 600 years to get to Kepler-22b
21:19:12 <elliott> Virtualisation for read barriers is a fun idea. I wonder if this answers my question about the overhead of hypervisors...
21:21:24 <Gregor> elliott: Ah, indeed I didn't.
21:21:39 <elliott> Gregor: So you didn't actually read the link :P
21:21:50 <elliott> "which contains a copy of OpenJDK which uses their concurrent collector: [...] It also contains the necessary linux kernel patches/kernel module to support it."
21:21:59 <elliott> I suppose it's ambiguous *shrug*
21:22:37 <Gregor> elliott: I did read that, I just wasn't clear on whether the source was included :P
21:22:51 <Gregor> Anyway I've seen them present their collector.
21:22:56 <Gregor> Honestly that's more valuable than source.
21:23:59 <elliott> Gregor: So do *you* know what the overhead of making a call to the hypervisor (from within a virtualised OS) is with x86 virtualisation? :P
21:24:28 <Gregor> I know that if you're asking that question, you shouldn't be benchmarking :)
21:24:57 <elliott> Gregor: This is for a totally different thing :P
21:25:25 <elliott> Specifically, I need them to be significantly cheaper than Unix syscall overhead :P
21:25:57 <Gregor> They pretty well imply all the steps involved in a syscall ...
21:25:59 <Ngevd> Gonna wash forehead, brb
21:27:33 <elliott> Gregor: Yeah, that's why I don't think they are :P
21:28:05 <elliott> On the other hand, if that thing uses them to do read barriers, then I don't see how it isn't massively inefficient... but (a) I don't know how they do it, (b) I guess they could just enable it when they enter the GC?
21:29:45 <Gregor> (b) they could, but I don't think they do.
21:30:18 <Gregor> (a) it's not exactly a call to the hypervisor that's going on, it's more like using the virtualization /framework/ as a kind of advanced MMU
21:30:42 <Gregor> There's no actual context switch.
21:30:43 <elliott> <Gregor> (b) they could, but I don't think they do.
21:30:50 <elliott> "They use x86 hardware virtualization extensions to provide a read barrier for their concurrent collector, IIRC. The idea has existed for quite a while I think, but I couldn't provide you with the early literature supporting that at the moment. Before they started offering x86 solutions (about ~2 yrs ago,) they used their own custom processors (the Vega series) which provided the needed hardware support directly. The algorithm itself is actually p
21:30:58 <elliott> You managed to not read a single sentence of that erddit link :P
21:31:11 <elliott> Gregor: You answered in reverse order wtf man.
21:31:21 <Gregor> That's why I specified the letters :P
21:31:36 <elliott> <Gregor> (a) it's not exactly a call to the hypervisor that's going on, it's more like using the virtualization /framework/ as a kind of advanced MMU
21:31:51 <elliott> Gregor: You mean the super-fancy new stuff where you can have a page table per virtualised OS?
21:32:03 <Ngevd> "The file system is integral to the operation and functionality of every computer-based task." <-- Whoever writes the Open University Linux course won't think much of @
21:32:19 <elliott> Ngevd: They won't think much, full stop.
21:32:20 <Gregor> elliott: They didn't go into enough detail when I saw their presentation for me to answer that :P
21:32:41 <elliott> Gregor: Doesn't really help this idea anyway, since I think it'd still end up having the same overhead >_>
21:32:57 <Jafet> Integrals are so much easier than linux file systems
21:33:19 <elliott> It just means that @'s performance benefits get trashed if you try and implement it by virtualising each individual (untrusted) program in ring 0 :)
21:34:09 <elliott> ais523: shouldn't you have waited until the other CFJ was rejudged?
21:34:22 <ais523> elliott: no, rule 754 is perfectly clear, and also power 3
21:34:35 <elliott> ais523: well, I disagree with your reasoning
21:34:44 -!- Patashu has joined.
21:34:45 <oerjan> Jafet: integrate e^(x^3) from 0 to a, okthxbye
21:34:48 <ais523> can you find a higher-power rule, or an equal-power rule with a lower number, that contradicts it?
21:35:01 <ais523> actually, it seems that that part of rule 754 might be interestingly scammable
21:35:08 <ais523> I'll have to think about it
21:35:16 <elliott> ais523: well, I was going to send this as an email, but: "Even though whitespace is formally irrelevant, surely intentional choice of whitespace can contribute to *intent*? And intent is what matters for registration."
21:35:39 <ais523> intent is a form of communication!
21:36:03 <ais523> my judgement: "the rules say X"; your counterargument: "X is broken"
21:36:07 <ais523> this is Agora, not Nomic 217
21:36:23 <elliott> that's not what I said at all, but I'll stick to just sending it as an email in case someone _else_ agrees.
21:40:44 -!- Taneb has joined.
21:42:42 <olsner> itidus20: the only way to spell croissant is croissant
21:42:48 -!- Ngevd has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
21:44:06 <ais523> `? misspellings of croissant
21:44:09 <HackEgo> misspellings of croissant? ¯\(°_o)/¯
21:44:58 <HackEgo> ais523 is ais523. This topic may retroactively become more informative if or when Feather is invented.
21:45:08 <HackEgo> cat: wisdom/: Is a directory
21:45:20 <Taneb> I have a head injury, okay?
21:45:31 <oerjan> `learn misspellings of croissant include crossaint, but crusade ain't.
21:45:44 <Gregor> oerjan: No, now it'll be
21:45:49 <HackEgo> ӛl.|i_..bqe./w-B.l{!&[.aaCxN.\.N7y@.05UP?.PR=I+.)C-9U."5.$I|@P@..Z4]A@.ځ.'.=LTh?ZVVq%fP3%w9ͳvr./6a..z.yŝ.$Y({QIp .QG.wGkG".C~թhL%B.ܦk/<&i..Cx.f><.`.Cu..fO'U,...OZ.5N#HeGd쿛.)..ԉ.:nz.K.t`OLcc_.y.cX\YČ6.5K5../1 \ .YWCPYW?GJGaP.QM..8Y.B[\Sژ.y|
21:45:50 <HackEgo> misspellings of croissant include crossaint, but crusade ain't.
21:46:01 <Gregor> `? misspellings of croissant
21:46:03 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
21:46:03 <HackEgo> misspellings of croissant? ¯\(°_o)/¯
21:46:05 <oerjan> `run mv wisdom/misspellings wisdom/'misspellings of croissant'
21:46:28 <Gregor> `run echo 'misspellings of crosant? ¯\(°_o)/¯' > wisdom/'misspellings of croissant'
21:46:32 <Patashu> Woah, I didn't know these things had a name! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floater
21:46:35 <Gregor> `? misspellings of croissant
21:46:37 <HackEgo> misspellings of crosant? ¯\(°_o)/¯
21:46:40 <ais523> what's with the line noise in `? misspellings?
21:47:01 <ais523> oh, Gregor screwing around?
21:47:23 <shachaf> elliott: We were playing a nice game of golf yesterday. You should join.
21:47:25 <Gregor> Oh, no, that was `? Ngevd, not `? misspellings
21:47:27 <lambdabot> let(!)=div;f n=1:n:1:f(n+2);w@(x:y)%[a,b,c,d]|t<-a!c,c+d>1,t==b!d=t:w%[10*(a-c*t),10*(b-d*t),c,d]|0<1=y%[x*a+b,a,x*c+d,c]in(2:f 2)%[1,0,0,1]>>=show
21:47:31 <Gregor> `run ls -l wisdom/ngevd
21:47:33 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 12 Dec 7 21:47 wisdom/ngevd -> /dev/urandom
21:47:49 <HackEgo> _E=kvW{/#Aw\".M..r`.0$O$.?l)FT \ *a66.$. \ W:f;<.\&O.._+PLy`.d.". #֥I,bJu..oJ.9%2...8sI;K.Mv.!k'EyN.%.u.[A...?ca. \ K0.7Ed.@W)X.^k.
21:48:09 <ais523> hmm, it starts the same as last time, but doesn't continue that way
21:48:16 <HackEgo> ..8r.O=.eʭ:.[ǐ\'$'և:J....O=!h..60.psFY>ˋ@QXU..F'."!.j.اə˄+^^y$t.5!0.Ql°d.k{F0~Fpř.{iuY8а=P.ln3PxlWH0]f.fq..Zf.vpzL+..:F$Cݺ1Ln]|G.J...B^wB6o...0;U=.E4n줎&(\.R\...H5!ƴ/.lI*>FZ@s!.}َ.jTpKT=?9.
21:48:25 <elliott> huh, why does it start the same way?
21:48:34 <ais523> OK, so /dev/urandom has started with â three times in a row
21:48:37 <ais523> your /dev/urandom is broken
21:48:48 <Gregor> It could very well be, as it's part of UML.
21:49:05 <Gregor> `run hexdump -C /dev/urandom | head
21:49:07 <HackEgo> 00000000 56 0a 71 c2 16 1d 36 33 ea 4a 25 a7 9d 07 bb 47 |V.q...63.J%....G| \ 00000010 0f 56 5b 7a 92 ed fd fd d4 47 bf d3 01 9f 85 16 |.V[z.....G......| \ 00000020 ca 26 dd e7 54 d4 c5 21 61 cc 9f fb f6 6f 54 9c |.&..T..!a....oT.| \ 00000030 1f d7 e9 90 cc 73 1a 1e 6e 79 b2 56 37 a5 28 c3 |.....s..ny.V7.(.| \ 00000040 dc 38 ef 4c 00 e4 72 aa 72 66 7d dd 95 bf 50 08 |.8.L..r.rf}...P.| \ 00000050 4d 50
21:49:09 <Gregor> `run hexdump -C /dev/urandom | head -n 1
21:49:12 <HackEgo> 00000000 84 b0 aa c2 dc 34 46 13 07 51 a1 0c cb 1c 13 7f |.....4F..Q......|
21:49:14 <Gregor> `run hexdump -C /dev/urandom | head -n 1
21:49:16 <shachaf> elliott: The goal is 140 characters.
21:49:17 <HackEgo> 00000000 72 49 94 bf 24 5e 39 73 27 c6 bc 1f dc 5d 64 17 |rI..$^9s'....]d.|
21:49:21 <Gregor> Nope, something to do with output.
21:49:42 <HackEgo> Wed Dec 7 21:49:42 UTC 2011
21:50:26 <ais523> shachaf: that only seems to use `div` twice, I think it'd be shorter without the abbreviation
21:50:35 <elliott> 01:09:30: <oerjan> i hope he didn't think we have anything against python. it may very well be even more popular than haskell here
21:51:05 <olsner> is python popular here? wtf?
21:51:25 <monqy> 2010 sounds like a bad place
21:51:35 <ais523> olsner: it has been popular in the past; the channel's opinion has changed because its composition of people has changed
21:51:47 <ais523> I probably dislike Python more than I should because of kerio
21:52:02 <elliott> cpressey and olsner started the wave of pythonhating
21:52:16 <elliott> we all just kind of admitted to ourselves that we really hate python in the process
21:52:40 <oerjan> incidentally "pyton" is norwegian slang for awful
21:52:55 <ais523> we should make a list of reasons to hate python somewhere
21:52:56 <olsner> likewise in swedish, appropriately enough
21:52:56 <shachaf> ais523: Are you like those people who talk about how O(1) is faster than O(log n) without measuring it? :-)
21:53:01 <ais523> so that python supporters can try to defend it
21:53:12 <ais523> shachaf: not in that case, I tried to mentally measure it
21:53:30 <shachaf> ais523: Remember you need a space after the let.
21:53:33 <ais523> and I've golfed myself, typically something short like that has to be used three or four times before it saves characters to define an abbreviation
21:53:51 <shachaf> I measure one character saved by the abbreviation.
21:54:22 <ais523> let(!)=div; is 11, then there are two uses of ! so 13 altogether
21:54:29 <ais523> whereas two uses of `div` is 10
21:54:45 <shachaf> Because other things are being defined?
21:54:50 <ais523> oh, you're defining more than one thing
21:54:55 <elliott> ais523: how old is kerio, btw?
21:55:07 <ais523> elliott: university, I'm not sure what year
21:55:10 <ais523> so somewhere between you and me
21:55:21 <ais523> he acts younger, though
21:55:25 <elliott> ais523: I was assuming he wasn't much older than I was when I acted like that
21:55:30 <ais523> he acts about your age
21:55:46 <ais523> shachaf: a person in another channel
21:56:00 <ais523> who could be considered a friend of mine based on message frequency
21:56:21 <itidus20> ponders about how individual letters/characters don't have any meaning individually (or do they?)
21:56:28 <shachaf> The channels we have in common are #interhack #unnethack #math #nethack
21:56:31 <oerjan> wait, kerio isn't one of elliott or tswett's other nicks? how weird.
21:56:44 <shachaf> Whoa, man, you're, like, that ais523.
21:56:48 <ais523> shachaf: hmm, I didn't realise you were in #unnethack
21:56:54 <elliott> shachaf: You keep realising ais523 is that ais523.
21:57:01 <ais523> elliott: but I am ais523!
21:57:02 <oerjan> elliott: the keys are like right next to each other.
21:57:03 <ais523> so it's a good thing to realise
21:57:18 <ais523> oerjan: hmm, has that become a rogue punchline?
21:57:19 <shachaf> ais523: I don't actually watch it.
21:57:34 <oerjan> ais523: it's a bash quote, isn't it?
21:57:38 <ais523> shachaf: I do vaguely know toft
21:57:48 <ais523> anyway, I'm having trouble figuring what you mean by "watch it"
21:57:53 <itidus20> the article 'a', pronoun 'i', abbreviations 'r,u'.. can be considered as single-letter words
21:57:56 <ais523> either word makes sense on its own, I just can't combine them
21:58:00 <elliott> ais523: the channel, surely
21:58:07 <ais523> people watch IRC channels?
21:58:09 <elliott> i.e. watch it for new messages
21:58:18 <ais523> hmm, I'd call that "read", I think
21:58:42 <elliott> ais523: you can listen to an IRC channel too, with the same meaning
21:58:44 <itidus20> but like.. the word 'rain' does not contain the meaning 'an instance of myself'
21:58:50 <olsner> or "listen", since IRC contains talking
21:59:13 <olsner> the fnarf of new messages on IRC
21:59:19 <elliott> ais523: you can read it, because it's words; watch it, because it's animated; and listen to it, because it's talking
22:00:14 <itidus20> i saw on wiki an article was talking about how one reads poetry, but speaks speeches
22:00:27 <ais523> I always wanted to call a demon or similar entity in a computer game that
22:00:33 <ais523> and talk about how they were unspeakable
22:00:38 <ais523> because that simply cannot be pronounced
22:00:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Watch has more connotations of active monitoring, rather than glancing or logreading every once in a while.
22:00:43 <ais523> you could describe what it looked like, I guess
22:00:47 <ais523> but that's different from pronouncing it
22:00:51 <itidus20> and it said that when you read poetry you use the rules of poetics.. but when you speak in public you use the rules of rhetoric
22:01:19 <elliott> ais523: "I allege that ▒̂ did $X!" "Unspeakable!" "Yes, that guy."
22:01:24 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: white noise (which I suspect you mean "static") is surprisingly hard to pronounce
22:01:48 <elliott> what's with that smudge, though?
22:02:12 <ais523> elliott: it's a combining caret
22:02:42 <oerjan> Skrrrchh, 18 level demon of hell
22:02:44 <ais523> on top of a MEDIUM SHADE
22:02:56 <ais523> hmm, "medium shade" almost sounds like a monster name by itself
22:04:10 <elliott> MEDIUM SHADE sounds like a watered-down pokemon move
22:04:27 <itidus20> While resting under the shade of a tree, you encounter a medium shade. En garde!
22:04:49 <itidus20> The medium shade preemptively bites you.
22:07:24 <oerjan> http://yafgc.net/?id=1016 (slightly nsfw)
22:09:28 <elliott> "This is the first appearance of the giant swastika in the background, which I put there to make sure you know these are Nazis."
22:09:38 <elliott> i wonder if anyone has ever commented on that thing :)
22:09:55 <Taneb> Somebody said it was actually the second
22:11:48 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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22:17:04 * oerjan tswats the tswit -----###
22:19:13 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> i wonder if anyone has ever commented on that thing :)
22:19:32 <Phantom_Hoover> You mean noticed the giant Lego swastika lying around his house?
22:19:45 <Phantom_Hoover> I guess it's kind of a hard thing to bring up in a conversation.
22:20:28 <Phantom_Hoover> "Say, David, you aren't some kind of construction set Nazi, are you?"
22:20:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: OMG I'm imagining neo-Nazis who, like, act out the Fourth Reich with legos.
22:21:16 <oerjan> build your own auschwitz
22:21:50 <elliott> "Rerun commentary: Monty is standing in front of a good old blackboard, since obviously whiteboards hadn't been invented in the 1930s."
22:21:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Can I just say thank god I wasn't born in the 1930s.
22:22:20 <elliott> I think hearing chalk on blackboard for more than 3 minutes at a time would send me into tears.
22:22:23 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, excuse me blackboards are amazing please leave this channel until you have learnt the error of your ways.
22:22:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: THEY HURT SO BAD
22:22:51 * oerjan had blackboards in his school in the 80s
22:22:52 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, if you're some kind of WEAK ENGLISH PANSY, perhaps.
22:23:03 <oerjan> and for that matter in university
22:23:32 <elliott> oerjan: In the mid-1960s, the first whiteboards began to appear on the market. In classrooms, their widespread adoption did not occur until the early 1990s when concern over allergies and other potential health risks posed by chalk dust prompted the replacement of many blackboards with whiteboards.[1]
22:23:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Seriously though I don't like whiteboards either but blackboards are quite literally unbearable.
22:23:59 * elliott can't stand a lot of sounds and it is annoying.
22:24:49 <oerjan> i mean on sounds in general
22:24:59 <Phantom_Hoover> You don't get the same sense of satisfaction from writing on a whiteboard.
22:25:07 <elliott> I don't really like whiteboards either!
22:25:16 <oerjan> by satisfaction, you mean chalk on your fingers, right?
22:25:25 <elliott> What we need is those ~electronic boards~ except not shit.
22:25:36 <Phantom_Hoover> With blackboards, it's like "I am WRITING and you are going to READ this because of all these IMPORTANT CLACKY SOUNDS it is making".
22:25:41 <elliott> (Who the hell designed those to use a projector?)
22:25:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Hey, I wouldn't care if it was just clacky sounds.
22:26:10 <oerjan> oh the clacky sounds, i'd forgotten them...
22:26:14 <Phantom_Hoover> THE SCRAPEY SOUND IS COMPLETELY COUNTERBALANCED BY THE CLACKY SOUND
22:26:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Would you like a board that, whenever anyone wrote in it, someone else had to blow a really awful whistle directly into your ear?
22:26:27 <elliott> THIS IS THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN UNDERSTAND
22:27:36 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_of_fingernails_scraping_chalkboard
22:28:20 <elliott> "I don't know if HouseOfScandal meant to be ironic, but i actually think that this article is not suitable for wikipedia. I suggest to delete it since it doesn't present any matter of fact, nor any information thta can be considered useful by anyone. The fact that the linked research won the Ig Nobel prize means something to me. Diego, 16:12, 16 April 2008"
22:28:52 * elliott has always been a bit wary of the Ig Nobel prizes since he thought they could easily fuel anti-scientific sentiment towards the "useless" research involved...
22:29:31 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, it's *supposed* to be for things which make you laugh, then make you think; whether that's actually reflected in the awards I'm not sure.
22:31:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "The awards are sometimes veiled criticism (or gentle satire)." :p
22:31:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I mean, you can't award legitimate-but-funny scientific research /and/ quacks.
22:31:38 <Phantom_Hoover> "The first Ig Nobels were awarded in 1991, at that time for discoveries "that cannot, or should not, be reproduced"."
22:32:06 <elliott> "they are followed by a set of public lectures by the winners at MIT" I assume the cranks turn down the opportunity...
22:32:38 <oerjan> elliott: veiled criticism, what gall
22:32:59 <elliott> Paul DeFanti is the fictional recipient of the 1991 Ig Nobel Prize in the area of Pedestrian Technology "for his invention of the Buckybonnet, a geodesic fashion structure that pedestrians wear to protect their heads and preserve their composure." This makes him one of only three fictional people to have won the award.[1] DeFanti supposedly demonstrated his Buckminster Fulleresque invention at the awards ceremony. According to Bill Jackson at the
22:33:00 <elliott> Massachusetts Institute of Technology:
22:33:00 <elliott> There was a "spontaneous" demonstration of the device's effectiveness when a rather attractive woman stormed into the room, accompanied by a police officer. The woman declared that DeFanti had fathered her child. She attempted to hit him, but the Buckybonnet protected him.[2]
22:33:12 <elliott> That sounds like the most awkward skit ever.
22:34:03 <oerjan> i guess they just didn't have enough candidates that year.
22:34:23 <pikhq_> elliott: Eh, they've had cranks lecture at MIT before. Just for kicks, they had Dr. Gene Ray, Cubic and Wise Above God, lecture once.
22:34:36 <elliott> "In 1995, Robert May, Baron May of Oxford, the chief scientific adviser to the British government, requested that the organizers no longer award Ig Nobel prizes to British scientists, claiming that the awards risked bringing genuine experiments into ridicule."
22:34:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: JUST THE BRITS THOUGH
22:34:46 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, it looks like it's split between "funny but legitimate research" and "mockery, normally of non-scientists".
22:34:50 <elliott> pikhq_: I keep meaning to watch that.
22:35:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Right, and the problem is that everyone /else/ can't tell the difference.
22:35:23 <elliott> pikhq_: But: "as part of the Independent Activities Period, a student-organized extra-curricular event".
22:35:27 <elliott> So it wasn't really an official thing.
22:36:18 <pikhq_> Well, yes; the whole point of that is "let's have a week or two of random shit happening". As is tradition.
22:38:23 <elliott> "Petition to pardon computer pioneer Alan Turing started" huh, didn't we already have one?
22:38:27 <elliott> or was that just an apology, and not a pardon
22:38:33 <elliott> "A posthumous apology to Alan Turing was made by Gordon Brown in 2009" right
22:38:52 <elliott> Surprised they didn't kill two birds with one stone.
22:43:45 <Phantom_Hoover> "Before Time Cube, Otis E. Ray advocated the sport of marbles." — WP
22:44:34 <oerjan> in any case, he lost them.
22:46:51 <ais523> don't 4-sided cubes only exist in 2D?
22:47:19 <oerjan> i think that's a whoosh.
22:47:43 <Gregor> So I went to the vet yesterday.
22:48:08 <Gregor> And my checkout form said (amongst many other things) that her nose was "pink and moist"
22:48:13 <Gregor> And i was like UHHH EXCUSE ME
22:48:44 <oerjan> Gregor's lack of fashion sense is finally getting an explanation
22:48:57 <Gregor> But her nose IS orange!
22:49:12 <oerjan> ...from a certain point of view.
22:49:12 <olsner> Gregor goes to a vet and refers to himself as her?
22:49:51 <olsner> the orange nose is weird though
22:49:59 <elliott> Gregor is actually a goat.
22:51:20 <pikhq_> Gregor is actually a rare species of mangoat
22:51:37 <oerjan> the fashion sense comes from the mango part
22:51:41 <ais523> perhaps the vet was female
22:51:42 <Gregor> As opposed to one of the more common species of mangoat.
22:52:09 <Gregor> `addquote <pikhq_> Gregor is actually a rare species of mangoat <oerjan> the fashion sense comes from the mango part
22:52:12 <HackEgo> 748) <pikhq_> Gregor is actually a rare species of mangoat <oerjan> the fashion sense comes from the mango part
22:52:24 <Gregor> THE CAT IS FEMALE I WAS BEING IMPLICIT Y'ALL
22:52:42 <olsner> ais523: oh, the *vet*'s nose was pink and moist?
22:52:44 <pikhq_> Insufficiently implicit.
22:53:04 <ais523> olsner: knowing that Gregor is male, it's the only possible referent in his sentence
22:53:28 <pikhq_> "So went to the vet yesterday. "And checkout form said nose was 'pink and moist'." "And was like UHHH EXCUSE." "ORANGE."
22:53:35 <Gregor> s/So I went to the vet yesterday\./So I brought my female cat to the vet yesterday./
22:54:01 <pikhq_> There, made like English was a pro-drop language.
22:54:11 <ais523> pikhq_: your double quotes don't match
22:54:20 <Gregor> ais523: It's also a quo-drop language.
22:54:23 <ais523> which set should I interpret as two single quotes?
22:54:34 <olsner> someone's gender according to the definition you use doesn't necessarily conform to their preferred pronoun
22:55:00 <ais523> *knowing that Gregor typically refers to himself with male pronouns
22:55:04 <pikhq_> olsner: In Gregor's case, it does.
22:55:36 <olsner> I don't know that! at least I won't assume it when trying to figure out the least plausible referent of a pronoun
22:55:40 <pikhq_> (unless there's something I don't know as regards this)
22:56:48 <oerjan> should someone break to olsner than english is usually based on using the _most_ plausible referent?
22:56:53 <elliott> Gregor actually uses the caveman set of pronouns: Gregor/Gregor/Gregor/Gregor.
22:57:19 <ais523> elliott: I am weirdly reminded of Elliottcraft
22:57:31 <Gregor> Gregor no appreciate #esoteric inspection.
22:57:41 <Gregor> Gregor make you pay for insubordination.
22:57:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Isn't there four?
22:57:48 <Gregor> Gregor caveman with extensive vocabulary.
22:58:13 <pikhq_> Ġ actually uses the set of pronouns Ġ/Ġ/Ġ/Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious'
22:58:14 <elliott> There's five, actually (subject, object, possessive adjective, possessive pronoun, reflexive, according to this WP article).
22:58:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Nominative, accusative, genitive are the only distinct ones I can think of.
22:58:35 <elliott> He/him/his/his/himself, they/them/their/theirs/themself
22:58:36 <olsner> elliott: that list has 6 entries
22:58:44 <elliott> e/em/eir/eirs/emself (Spivak)
22:59:05 <elliott> e/em/eir/eirs/eirself (Agoran Spivak)
22:59:05 <oerjan> i/me/my/mine/myself, i presume
22:59:24 <monqy> "according the this WP article" is my favourite style of pronouns
23:00:03 <elliott> My preferred according to this WP article pronoun is U+FFFF.
23:00:27 <olsner> that's not a valid unicode character
23:01:16 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:01:17 * elliott dislikes the "ey" style of Spivak intensely.
23:01:28 * Gregor dislikes Spivak intensely.
23:01:50 * olsner spivaks intense dislikely
23:01:53 <elliott> Gregor: that's cuz you suck
23:03:44 <pikhq_> Hereby declare no person shall use pronouns! From now on, shall omit nouns!
23:03:54 <pikhq_> oerjan: Yeah, well, dislike
23:04:10 * elliott could see this becoming confusing.
23:04:51 <pikhq_> elliott: One only omits when pronouns would be used.
23:05:16 <elliott> pikhq_: If you keep this up for another two lines I'll start referring to you with null pronouns :P
23:06:03 <pikhq_> elliott: Very well þen. I ſhall ſimply drift to archaic orþography.
23:06:41 <pikhq_> And ſo ſhall we all, I ſincerely hope.
23:06:58 <ais523> just checking they were on my compose key
23:07:05 <ais523> (fs and th, respectively)
23:07:41 <ais523> /* maybe everyone should make all their comments /actual/ comments */
23:08:09 <monqy> actual comments in what language
23:08:17 <pikhq_> I prefer doing it in proper languages such as Brainfuck
23:08:32 <ais523> does esme have defined comment semantics?
23:08:41 <elliott> ais523: iirc one of the example programs has something that /looks/ like a comic
23:08:50 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esme
23:08:54 <elliott> pikhq_: ooh, now I'm tempted to run all of #esoteric as a brainfuck program
23:09:02 <pikhq_> Which、of course、sucks without the full power of UNICODE。
23:09:08 <ais523> "Anything beginning with a | can contain anything and is a comment"
23:09:18 <elliott> ais523: wow, how well-specified for esme
23:09:29 <ais523> the example given contains a | at the end of a comment too
23:09:30 <oerjan> elliott: ]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
23:09:51 <ais523> run it as an FYB program, that has defined semantics for mismatched brackets
23:10:11 <ais523> also, the way cise works, wouldn't something really long take millenia to do anything at all?
23:11:30 <ais523> I forgot how awesome Talk:Esme was, incidentally
23:12:23 <elliott> ais523: Gregor: wow, these people on reddit are still claiming that you can perfectly determine object lifetime statically as long as there are no cycles
23:12:30 <elliott> the reality distortion field lives on...
23:12:44 <ais523> elliott: I was actually thinking about the whole refcount/GC thing
23:12:58 <elliott> ">I don't know what you mean by "the general case" but that is exactly what ARC does, so I'm going to say it is possible.
23:12:58 <elliott> The lifetime of an object is not statically determinable; if it was, we wouldn't need runtime automatic memory management at all."
23:13:01 <elliott> "It doesn't do cycle detection. It's reference counting; cyclic disconnected subgraphs will not be reclaimed. In the general case, the programmer sometimes needs to use zeroing weak references to avoid memory leaks."
23:13:04 <ais523> and wondering "what proportion of objects have statically determinable lifetimes?"
23:13:07 <Gregor> elliott: The "as long as there are no cycles" corollary is bizarre.
23:13:12 <ais523> but I certainly didn't think that it would be all of them
23:13:16 <elliott> Gregor: It's because it's ~refcounting~
23:13:29 <elliott> Gregor: Everyone knows refcounting can't do cycles, therefore as long as you give that caveat, surely this impossible thing must work!!
23:13:42 <Gregor> ais523: It's not an uncommon optimization to stackify things with known lifetime, but it's not all objects :P
23:14:14 <ais523> and I was thinking of more than stackify
23:14:20 <elliott> ais523: look into region inferecne
23:14:22 <ais523> but rather, "this object is always deallocated on line n"
23:14:38 <elliott> certainly you can do this kind of stuff in practice, but that's not what the "general case" means :)
23:14:45 <ais523> I'm not disagreeing with you
23:14:55 <ais523> it's like wondering "how good an infinite loop detector is it possible to make?"
23:15:03 <elliott> ais523: that's why I pointed you to existing work on the topic
23:15:38 <elliott> "Do you have a citation for "any GC worth even half its salt will surpass [reference counting]"? I would like to think that the iOS engineering team didn't completely miss the ball when they decided that GC was too expensive for use on the iPhone."
23:17:07 <olsner> you may like to think it all you like, doesn't make it true
23:17:07 <shachaf> elliott: It's, like, Apple, man.
23:17:41 <elliott> I find it perfectly plausible that Apple's existing Objective-C GC was way too slow/thrashing on the original iPhone when it was being developed in 2006. :P
23:17:56 <ais523> I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't think "GC is too expensive", but "GC has the wrong performance characterstics"
23:18:38 <elliott> Y'know what's too slow to run on phones?
23:19:10 <Gregor> I will go out on a limb and say that with very-restricted memory, refcounting will probably beat GC. Only because GC is thrash hell if it doesn't have enough space.
23:19:24 <Gregor> (Note: Not a limb :P )
23:19:36 <elliott> Original iPhone had 128 megs of RAM.
23:20:00 <Gregor> I also find it easy to believe that Apple are durptards.
23:20:09 <Gregor> You can definitely GC with 128MB of RAM :P
23:20:19 <elliott> Gregor: Yah, but it was also a REALLY slow CPU.
23:20:21 <Gregor> Probably not if you're Apple and so all of your programs barely function with <1GB though *shrugs*
23:20:22 <olsner> hmm, how long ago was iPhone anyway?
23:20:42 <elliott> Refcounting is slow, but the pauses are more predictable and spread-out than GC.
23:22:08 <olsner> hmm, I'm trying to figure out if 128MB RAM was huge or normal (for a phone) back then
23:22:22 <elliott> Gregor: (iPhone 4S has 1 GHz dual-core ARM and 512 megs of RAM :P)
23:22:40 <elliott> So GC would definitely work nowadays, but I think Objective-C only admits conservative GCs, so perhaps not.
23:22:45 <olsner> the project I was working on back then had something like 11MB of heap available for the application
23:23:04 <Gregor> Ohhhhhhhh yeah conservative GCs can be slow too. Unless of course they used Boehm. Which would definitely beat refcounting :P
23:23:10 <Gregor> And also is easily and publicly available.
23:23:17 <elliott> olsner: pretty big, I think
23:23:42 <elliott> Gregor: I don't know that Boehm works with objc...
23:23:54 <elliott> But Objective-C doesn't do much funny business, so maybe it would.
23:23:54 <Gregor> elliott: Why wouldn't it?
23:24:20 <Gregor> It's friggin' Boehm :P
23:24:27 <elliott> Gregor: All you need is somewhere to use an offset rather than a pointer.
23:24:29 <Gregor> Unless you're xoring your pointers or writing them to disk, you're pretty much OK.
23:24:51 <Gregor> elliott: That offset is irrelevant if you don't have the pointer base somewhere ... unless you mean an offset into a /different/ object, in which case "OK"
23:25:23 <elliott> I wonder if there's a xor linked list sitting around in some commonly-used library somewhere unnoticed
23:25:26 <Gregor> All the things that break Boehm are /crazy/ :P
23:25:30 <elliott> Causing weird bugs for Boehm programs
23:25:57 -!- pikhq has joined.
23:25:59 <Gregor> Boehm has a #define to hide your pointers from the GC that just xors them against -1.
23:26:13 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
23:26:47 <elliott> Gregor: I like my language-agnostic semantics-preserving conservative GC, which (a) is uncomputable and (b) would never free an object even if it wasn't.
23:27:20 <Gregor> I don't recall how it specifies it, I thought it was -1 but it could be ~0 too.
23:27:34 <Gregor> I suppose ~0 makes it portable to all the systems where you want GC and don't use 2s-complement.
23:27:44 <elliott> Xoring with -1 would be weird on nonexistent non-2's-complement systems :P
23:27:55 <Gregor> elliott: And also you want GC.
23:28:05 <olsner> I think -1 and ~0 are the same for unsigned values, but you'd need to get -1 converted to unsigned rather than the other one to int
23:28:26 <elliott> Gregor: (Did I ever tell you how that impossible GC worked, it's great)
23:28:29 <Gregor> olsner: They're the same for any kind of signedness ... and you need to convert them to a pointer regardless.
23:28:33 <Gregor> elliott: I'm afeared...
23:29:25 <elliott> Gregor: It simply considers the computer's RAM as a single object, and applies every single function from <array of bytes> -> <set of addresses> to it; everything not in the resulting union'd set is freed.
23:29:36 <elliott> Gregor: This handles xor'd linked lists, arithmetic, ...
23:30:00 <Gregor> Note that every single function from <array of bytes> -> <set of addresses> also involves adding all possible numbers.
23:30:01 <elliott> Gregor: UNFORTUNATELY you need to include the hard drive and the entire internet in the state too, or it's breakable.
23:30:04 <Gregor> Hence, can't free anything.
23:30:23 <Gregor> Neither does malloc() without free() by that standard :P
23:30:24 <elliott> As long as you have no IO :P
23:30:37 <elliott> Gregor: Yeah, but that doesn't scan the heap, ergo it isn't a GC.
23:30:52 <Gregor> elliott: cpressey would argue that scanning the heap doesn't make it a GC>
23:31:09 <elliott> Gregor: ~A -> ~B =/= A -> B
23:31:24 <elliott> Scanning the heap is a necessary but not sufficient condition to be a GC.
23:31:53 <elliott> speaking of cpressey, why haven't we discussed Madison in here yet?
23:32:39 <Gregor> Also, scanning the /entire/ heap isn't even a necessity.
23:32:44 <Gregor> You don't need to scan dead objects :P
23:33:05 <elliott> Gregor: And you don't have to scan objects you can mathematically prove don't need to be, either :P
23:33:08 <Gregor> Plus, that's only for a reachability-based GC. Crazy future GCs won't be rechability-based (haw haw haw DOUBLE RAINBOW)
23:33:16 <elliott> So in the Apple universe, GCs are nops.
23:33:24 <elliott> Well, not nops, just lists of free statements :)
23:33:36 <elliott> Gregor: Heh, what's the FUTURE of GCs?
23:33:57 <Gregor> elliott: Every year at ISMM somebody makes a quip about non-reachability-based GCs.
23:34:09 <Gregor> elliott: And then everybody kinda stares at their shoes.
23:34:12 <Gregor> elliott: And then they move on.
23:34:23 <elliott> Wow, argh, I'm turning into you
23:34:46 <elliott> greI can't think of anything that would be (a) non-reachability-based and (b) a GC by my definition of a GC...
23:36:00 <Gregor> The problem is that the way we define GCs implies reachability. I'll tell you about my BRILLIANT (read: terrible) LRU-based GC once I get back from dinner :P
23:37:01 <elliott> Memory64MB (8100 series) or 128MB (8220) Internal, MicroSD slot
23:37:13 <elliott> olsner: I'll say that the iPhone had a large but not unheard of amount of memory for its time
23:37:20 <elliott> But smartphones in general were rare at the time, sooo
23:37:30 <elliott> The average phone probably had like 3 bytes of RAM :P
23:37:33 <elliott> (And probably still does.)
23:37:44 <olsner> S40 devices *still* give you only 2MB of heap, regardless of the amount of installed memory
23:38:29 <elliott> how much ram do they typically have
23:38:39 <olsner> actually next year some models are coming out that give you *4MB* of heap, it's like insane
23:39:30 <ais523> elliott: I'd guess tens or hundreds of KB of RAM for a typical dumbphone, but it's just a guess
23:39:56 <olsner> (but then, iirc, they've quadrupled the screen size)
23:40:00 <elliott> ais523: well, the most common phones are overwhelmingly Nokia's black-and-white models, iirc
23:40:10 <elliott> mostly due to their ubiquity less-developed countries
23:40:31 <olsner> all or most of those low-end nokias are S40
23:40:39 <elliott> ais523: anything with S40 presumably has at least 2 megs of ram according to what olsner said, and that's the most readily-accessible dumbphone in the first world
23:40:52 <ais523> elliott: hmm, interesting
23:40:56 <elliott> olsner: not the monochrome ones, I don't think
23:42:49 <elliott> olsner: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_1202
23:42:52 <elliott> S30 is apparently a thing!
23:43:02 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Series_30_(software_platform)
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