< 1323648009 308850 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, by patching things vaguely < 1323648021 286936 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :by adding a map which associates orderless values to cursors. < 1323648035 871275 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :not vague. just now a composite data structure. < 1323648051 695589 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :more memory overhead, slower add/remove < 1323648086 248838 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sigh* show code < 1323648095 946250 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry too lazy. < 1323648128 899364 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well then. < 1323648150 238700 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's confusing about having symbolic values or indices associated with each cursor that are irrelevant to its ordering, which are maintaining in a Map Index Cursor? < 1323648169 208499 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :or doing a linear search to improve memory add head + add/remove time? < 1323648175 246792 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1323648179 796335 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/add head/overhead/ < 1323648320 566711 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: the thing is that what you're saying makes nos ense. < 1323648321 751693 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*no sense. < 1323648365 830246 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :by "out-of-order" do you mean that you have indices associated with each cursor and you want that to be unrelated to their position in the sequence? < 1323648383 615368 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :in other words, "get cursor 5" refers to the same cursor always? < 1323648423 735412 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, simple order makes no sense for quadtrees. < 1323648456 639060 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought we were talking about zippers as in regular zippers over a linear sequence. < 1323648471 565806 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yes, but kallisti has always tried to do list zippers, for whatever reason. < 1323648478 864033 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: the original zipper was a tree zipper. < 1323648488 508170 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, well, okay. < 1323648490 873393 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so "regular" is questionable. < 1323648492 197827 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes, for list zippers an order should work < 1323648604 238454 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you never have a meeting of more than two branches, all the machinery i described previously should simplify immensely to something like that. < 1323648640 770024 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(branches including both down and upward ones here) < 1323648668 893764 :warg!~warg@069-064-236-042.pdx.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1323648700 523467 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :moreover most of it can be transfered to binary trees as long as you never focus on an inner branch < 1323648718 187800 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, maybe not directly. < 1323648723 720615 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :FUCK GNUMERIC < 1323648729 986032 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you have an order to use then. < 1323648732 507251 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :FUCK IT WITH A HOT POKER ROD < 1323648732 685705 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi Sgeo < 1323648734 822089 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi Sgeo < 1323648760 508421 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi monqy < 1323648764 216693 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1323648789 242233 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, I put -1/2 into a cell < 1323648792 404297 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It shows up as 1/3 < 1323648794 316204 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm, 1/2 < 1323648812 55859 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because I have the cells set to display as fractions with a whole number < 1323648823 507511 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since the whole part is 0, Gnumeric apparently decides there's no place to put a sign < 1323648824 666236 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1323648917 879463 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I assume you're familiar with generic zippers? < 1323648920 465924 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :one thing I'm unsure about is which representation to choose for this situation: http://sprunge.us/SQAK < 1323648921 621107 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: yes. < 1323648940 724479 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: crazy idea, use a hilbert curve as your coordinates into funge space, turn the quadtree into a binary one :P < 1323648946 461891 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: heh < 1323649095 125969 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :for a value of crazy equal to: someone probably thought of something similar before < 1323649121 46265 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: you're not going to comment on that sprunge are you :( < 1323649133 812200 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess it's not really clear waht i maen by it :P < 1323649151 278289 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: solution: implement a perl interpreter: use Perl < 1323649165 351821 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Am I allowed to be ticked off at pieces of junk? < 1323649169 988690 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1323649176 168504 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, yes < 1323649178 758160 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :technically. < 1323649180 865431 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1323649209 636994 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I can only assume that was a no to Sgeo and not a no to my brilliant idea. < 1323649220 765841 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was both < 1323649224 773338 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :completely incomprehensible, check < 1323649225 689015 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :double no :o < 1323649236 705650 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: oh is it really < 1323649238 854518 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1323649239 996741 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorey < 1323649241 933035 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: you gotta warn people when you double no like that. < 1323649249 37544 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :_or_ i haven't had enough to eat. < 1323649254 587821 :Nisstyre!~yours@infocalypse-net.info QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1323649257 125831 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: try more ets < 1323649271 938593 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*munch* < 1323649344 912787 :Nisstyre!~yours@infocalypse-net.info JOIN :#esoteric < 1323649350 797310 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: tree zippers look like trees except turnways. < 1323649368 188299 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this should make total sense) < 1323649386 814763 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: no, they look like a tree threaded through a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zipper < 1323649407 97188 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :on second thought i think the universe just wanted to keep me away from deranged762. < 1323649418 970661 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: don't stop reading the log < 1323649419 223299 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: yes and therefore turnways < 1323649419 968671 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :because < 1323649431 173335 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: you know nothing about turnways < 1323649432 85172 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: he disses the ~scientific worldview~ < 1323649440 718694 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: citing THE DARK AGES AND THE FACT THAT WE USED TO THINK THE WORLD WAS FLAT < 1323649446 360303 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriously < 1323649463 277671 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :he didn't mention columbus too? < 1323649464 670878 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the spherical earth, a well-known victory of ufology < 1323649486 333115 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: no, but he did mention us being mind-controlled < 1323649491 339804 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :unfortunately not sheeple < 1323649509 996835 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I think his point was supposed to be that humans have a history of having firmly established mainstream beliefs that are wrong. however, it was executed terribly. not to mention that's not a very good argument against the majority of established scientific theory. < 1323649534 124793 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm where is that asimov link < 1323649540 655936 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1323649563 160837 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: When arguing for faith over science, try not to cite possibly *the* most famous victory of science over faith. < 1323649567 856698 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: because there's a fundamental difference in the way science derives knowlege from the way folklore derives knowlege. < 1323649575 114344 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: yes. < 1323649594 396607 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm < 1323649602 639038 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: (was I wrong in referring to you as a theist, btw? I don't think so but I might as well check) < 1323649629 29587 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think "theist" may be too precise. < 1323649655 932019 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: okay so tree zippers were a little confusing at first but I think I've got it now. < 1323649669 123998 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, binary tree zippers. < 1323649675 171632 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: that would be _so_ easy to mock you with :) < 1323649685 246472 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but OK, noted < 1323649704 976581 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm guessing n-degree trees work similarly just with more constructor arguments or a list of subtrees instead. < 1323649727 329944 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :waht < 1323649769 807933 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :type Loc a = (Tree a, Cxt a) < 1323649772 178518 :Klisz!~Klisz@c-67-162-128-110.hsd1.co.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: You are now graced with my absence. < 1323649776 618119 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so here the first tuple element is the entire tree, right? < 1323649783 615764 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1323649792 483225 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is the focused subtree < 1323649797 273198 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh okay. < 1323649799 474834 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the thing that's left out < 1323649800 928244 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the context < 1323649819 375381 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is how to build the rest of the tree from that location. < 1323649823 215170 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: you should know that my theory which elliott dismisses as being too overcomplicated only really picks up in complexity once you have at least 3 cursors. < 1323649823 392504 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that right? < 1323649834 191015 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: um, okay, noted. < 1323649835 783678 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1323649863 738034 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: um it is too complicated because it involves something like 10 GADTs, a supporting data type requiring unsafeCoerce to implement, and you haven't told me how to implement even a single function. < 1323649865 104833 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: that, by the way, is a warning not to assume you can easily generalize from the 1 and 2 cases. < 1323649872 909392 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I see < 1323649884 577087 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you meant your final structure only picks up in complexity at that point < 1323649893 402091 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: oerjan is not actually a programer. < 1323649904 603636 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is probably the mistake you're making. < 1323649915 515264 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: I SUPPORT THAT IDEA < 1323649920 799990 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: um he is certainly proficient enough _to_ program. < 1323649924 568007 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :whats program < 1323649927 270502 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I'm not sure what your point is < 1323649936 830554 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: my point is TOTAL SERIOUSNESS < 1323649968 306374 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i assume since there were no comments that you've all read that asimov link before :P < 1323649988 386465 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: no comments because i'm busy reading it < 1323649991 595344 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1323650006 120656 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha, this makes way more sense now. < 1323650037 164488 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: a zipper of a type is just that data type with a hole in a recursive position < 1323650050 431561 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, yes, but that doesn't really help you understand the implementation < 1323650054 310157 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you can generalise it beyond that, but that definition is most elegant because you can derive it by taking the _derivative_ of the type by the standard derivative laws) < 1323650054 500844 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is all I'm trying to do right now < 1323650058 978657 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I understand the /concept/ < 1323650068 761413 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :or the basic one < 1323650072 643640 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :not the derivative stuff. < 1323650091 340621 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can quite literally derive the implementation for the one-hole case. that's the key to understanding < 1323650174 434456 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-228-21.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's this about oerjan and theism? < 1323650175 835491 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: but my idea for an n-cursor list is satisfactory right? or did I not explain it well enough? < 1323650180 621024 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: no < 1323650183 920473 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, probably for lists < 1323650186 768421 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't care about lists < 1323650200 702764 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: oerjan is completely atheistic and holds absolutely non-naturalistic viewpoints. < 1323650227 888483 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-228-21.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I think you a word < 1323650235 70229 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*absolutely no, of course. < 1323650238 736979 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it has the added bonus that you can FIND SUBSEQUENCES BETWEEN ADJACENT CURSORS < 1323650242 909621 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is probably useful for something I imagine. < 1323650253 710191 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-228-21.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Ah, what I actually *thought* was the case re: oerjan. < 1323650258 685488 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: Yes. < 1323650325 542380 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: oh, huh, you know... I just realized my n-cursor list is probably equivalent to a 2D list. :P < 1323650335 666119 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :or a 2D sequence or whatever. < 1323650353 454926 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes it is. < 1323650418 777532 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :a cursor can be visualized as a point between two subsequences < 1323650439 208351 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : i assume since there were no comments that you've all read that asimov link before :P <-- no, just finished reading it. Interesting. < 1323650474 755335 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-228-21.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I'd read it before. < 1323650497 870067 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: why are you focusing so much effort on n-cursor zippers when you only need the quadtree case? < 1323650507 442965 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1323650507 620168 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-228-21.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, you don't need to be a programmer by profession to be a programmer. To be a programmer, you just need to be able to program. < 1323650509 724614 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: what < 1323650512 204855 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-228-21.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And oerjan sure as heck can do that. < 1323650521 858918 :warg!~warg@069-064-236-042.pdx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :jah < 1323650526 662582 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: oh.... nevermind. < 1323650534 303586 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: quadtree =/= 4 cursors < 1323650536 929982 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: right < 1323650543 775734 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: no I didn't think that I just got briefly confused < 1323650549 279834 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps from lack of food or something. < 1323650572 299847 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wouldn't want you to think I'm /always/ this confused. :P < 1323650579 666770 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :how many cursors do you end up with in the quad tree case? < 1323650583 13794 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :n < 1323650587 521626 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1323650590 469870 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it varies < 1323650600 170842 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, makes sense when I think about it < 1323650600 903437 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're instruction pointers in a fungespace, I believe. < 1323650610 135396 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :quad tree funge space? heh < 1323650623 516671 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe fizzie tried that at some point with rather mediocre results < 1323650640 471390 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: It's not going to be a quad-tree. < 1323650640 871532 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :forgot what the implementation was called < 1323650664 468086 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: It's just that a quad-tree n-cursor zipper is a lot easier to implement as a prototype than a k-d tree n-cursor zipper. < 1323650668 227006 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, btw I recently learned enough maths to actually understand the CCBI2 funge space. < 1323650675 186408 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is a really nice way to do it < 1323650676 33408 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's maths involved? < 1323650700 486603 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well, compsci/math/whatever < 1323650711 703831 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's... not exactly complicated. < 1323650719 694991 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :wjat is it < 1323650729 723301 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway my plan is to implement the fungespace Deewiant wants but couldn't be arsed to write. < 1323650741 304148 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, what is that funge space? < 1323650745 186910 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, so I've decided that I will have to write a linker < 1323650751 282198 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for my hardware compiler < 1323650764 629465 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm. compiling to vhdl or verilog? < 1323650768 916366 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: VHDL < 1323650777 549232 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, why would you need a linker? < 1323650782 839249 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: if you think about it a trash compactor is a kind of hardware compilre. < 1323650787 580323 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to do libraries properly < 1323650791 324745 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1323650801 692973 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: A k-d tree; I believe he specifically wants a bucket PR-CIF k-d tree or something. < 1323650806 19244 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forget the exact one he wanted. < 1323650813 748910 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: glue: a hardware linker < 1323650816 928495 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, ah, yeah k-d trees are nice < 1323650822 539880 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Do you need separate compilation? :p < 1323650829 398202 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that's the hard part < 1323650837 872580 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, actually, the hard part is just the object file format < 1323650846 331008 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can work out what entities I need in the VHDL < 1323650854 629712 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what I need in the object file is "VHDL with a tiny amount of metadata" < 1323650862 853819 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: why do you need separate compilation :'( < 1323650865 465910 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose I could use specially-formatted comments or something < 1323650865 659037 :PiRSquared17!~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 JOIN :#esoteric < 1323650872 45987 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: to prove that it's possible < 1323650875 408315 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1323650884 427120 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'd just make a simple file format on top of VHDL < 1323650894 712637 :PiRSquared17!~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :warg: "oerjan is completely atheistic and holds absolutely non-naturalistic viewpoints" < 1323650898 481603 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, what is the name of the type of tree that is like k-d tree but need not be axis aligned now again? < 1323650899 522432 :PiRSquared17!~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What? < 1323650902 405958 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: say, "key: value" lines with a blank line to terminate, after which the VHDL starts < 1323650907 713135 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :PiRSquared17: warg didn't say that? < 1323650909 971229 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, seems reasonable < 1323650912 800582 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Dunno. < 1323650914 700843 :PiRSquared17!~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1323650915 66197 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'll make it -- key: value < 1323650919 868781 :PiRSquared17!~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :In #wikipedia-en < 1323650922 6181 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that the file can be run through a VHDL compiler unchanged < 1323650932 376058 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :PiRSquared17: hmm, warg is randomly quoting this channel in #wikipedia-en? < 1323650942 806786 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :for what reason? < 1323650956 308034 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :warg................................ < 1323650957 589125 :PiRSquared17!~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"oops wrong window" < 1323650957 916579 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because I was the one who said that, in here. < 1323650982 833356 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :PiRSquared17: For it to be the wrong window, he would have to be about to completely parrot something I say in here... < 1323650991 799170 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :or else be quoting it to somebody in private I suppose < 1323651021 480379 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, oh I think it is more general BSP trees I'm thinking about < 1323651022 658096 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps < 1323651032 346927 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you might want to add start and end comments so that adding comments doesn't break things, then < 1323651054 195964 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, if it's always at the start of the file, it should be obvious to not add anything before it < 1323651058 287577 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fair enough < 1323651059 315722 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :VHDL comments /are/ --, right? < 1323651062 370855 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, yes, i think so < 1323651064 24329 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1323651066 680778 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :warg: Well? < 1323651123 966953 :warg!~warg@069-064-236-042.pdx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno, I can only get two fingers in her, maybe I should wait until she's five. < 1323651128 149114 :warg!~warg@069-064-236-042.pdx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooops, wrong window. < 1323651139 849629 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1323651169 922930 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ^ < 1323651173 215177 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :...... < 1323651178 107796 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :get rid of him already... < 1323651186 712176 :warg!~warg@069-064-236-042.pdx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1323651187 221276 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :report to the police? < 1323651192 481913 :warg!~warg@069-064-236-042.pdx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :report what? < 1323651194 420881 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: obvious trolling < 1323651201 26136 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I hope so < 1323651216 220730 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :reported for being an idiot on the internet < 1323651223 178575 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :jails sentence: so many years < 1323651227 862009 :warg!~warg@069-064-236-042.pdx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the cyberpolice are backtracing my emails < 1323651231 290172 :warg!~warg@069-064-236-042.pdx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh noes < 1323651366 651030 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ping < 1323651386 402074 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: YOU HAVE THE POWAH < 1323651459 588710 :derdon!~derdon@p5DE89B26.dip.t-dialin.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1323651642 588695 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: LOL DUDE3 < 1323651649 41890 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: an n-cursor zipper is liek < 1323651653 579462 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: LIST OF ZIPPERS. < 1323651656 308548 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :.. < 1323651660 111033 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1323651664 472999 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'm going to bite the bullet and install Libreoffice Calc < 1323651700 450030 :ChanServ!ChanServ@services. MODE #esoteric +o :oerjan > 1323651700 515949 NAMES :#esoteric < 1323651703 941788 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: you have to admit that it would be a possible implementation... < 1323651708 801634 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: no, it would not < 1323651712 432197 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no MODE #esoteric +b :*!*warg@*.pdx.net > 1323651712 450255 NAMES :#esoteric < 1323651712 609820 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no KICK #esoteric warg :_Too_ obvious. < 1323651719 641136 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: um that is a rather suboptimal ban < 1323651723 392469 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :seeing as this is his second alias < 1323651737 853110 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it's the one irssi does automatically. < 1323651740 689471 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1323651743 609653 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks, anyway < 1323651767 994818 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder why he quoted me in the first place. < 1323651770 806269 :PiRSquared17!~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is his first alias? < 1323651773 577610 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :PiRSquared17: Deathly < 1323651777 267886 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :o.O < 1323651780 776821 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deathly == warg? < 1323651786 954107 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1323651794 30366 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: why does a list of zippers not work? < 1323651807 736033 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: you zip (1/\2)/\(3/\4) at the 1, and take another zipper at the 4 < 1323651811 642167 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you change the 1 to a 20 < 1323651820 103988 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the zipper at the 4 still sees a 1 < 1323651821 357191 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no MODE #esoteric -o :oerjan > 1323651821 367360 NAMES :#esoteric < 1323651822 208030 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :q.e.d. < 1323651828 259856 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah you can't share the data, right. < 1323651838 232585 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :UNLESS < 1323651842 272298 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOU CAN SHARE THE DATA. < 1323651997 102970 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :use IORefs and unsafeCoerce < 1323651999 782879 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :problem solved < 1323652000 777782 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1323652070 434035 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: finally i have shifted the complexity from the types to the algorithms :P < 1323652096 633901 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's good. more time. less memory. < 1323652117 151766 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: well assuming your types work, that is. < 1323652159 599877 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: snarky :P < 1323652189 716995 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: i don't quite see where you are supporting more than 1 cursor. < 1323652198 546638 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Tree a = Tip a | Branch (Tree a) (Tree a) deriving (Show) < 1323652198 724145 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Dir = L | R deriving (Show) < 1323652198 724324 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Ctx a = Top | Fork Dir (Tree a) (Ctx a) deriving (Show) < 1323652198 724433 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :type Zipper a = (a, Zipper a) < 1323652198 724542 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :data NCtx a = Connect Dir | NFork Dir (Tree a) (NCtx a) deriving (Show) < 1323652199 489 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :type NZipper a = (a, NCtx a) < 1323652201 22045 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :data ZipNode a = Subtree (Tree a) | Zipper (NZipper a) deriving (Show) < 1323652203 8292 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :type NZippers a = Zipper (ZipNode a) < 1323652205 30651 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that might help, it's the full thing < 1323652208 501699 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :focus :: [Dir] -> Tree a -> NZippers a < 1323652216 493248 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :moveCurrentZipper :: Dir -> NZippers a -> NZippers a, etc. < 1323652231 221146 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :moveToNextZipper :: NZippers a -> NZippers a, and so on < 1323652247 943608 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well this _does_ force zippers to be arranged in space order internally, but even yours did that < 1323652258 703159 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the overhead of maintaining a list of paths to each zipper should be small < 1323652273 20485 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: type Zipper a = (a, Zipper a) ? ;P < 1323652295 864741 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: THAT'S WHERE THE POWER COMES FROM!!! < 1323652299 753166 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fixed :P < 1323652390 104990 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well what was that supposed to be, it's rather essential < 1323652405 334650 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/Zipper/NCtx/ < 1323652406 2300 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: (a, Ctx a) < 1323652410 160397 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: no! < 1323652414 316925 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the second one < 1323652416 173745 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant < 1323652421 386233 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : type NZipper a = (a, NCtx a) < 1323652422 869068 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ambigiuous blah < 1323652423 882532 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that one was already fixed. < 1323652428 361630 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: not the second one. < 1323652430 154096 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are wrong < 1323652431 610473 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh okay. < 1323652475 802398 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate Libreoffice why am I installing it just because the alternative sucks more < 1323652500 822356 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the alternatives suck more. < 1323652516 96725 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :also because < 1323652519 550664 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are no other reasons. < 1323652592 323546 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nobel prise < 1323652601 792747 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/nobel/noble/ < 1323652629 489628 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1323652633 81023 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: actually focusN :: Tree a -> NZippers a < 1323652637 454786 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the whole thing starts as one big Subtree < 1323652638 434314 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :node < 1323652643 617491 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric := 0 zippers < 1323652658 883752 :calamari!~calamari@ip72-211-147-156.tc.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1323652709 69748 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: it's important that I misspell correctly. < 1323652732 593356 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: now to write addZipper :: [Dir] -> NZippers a -> NZippers a... < 1323652744 45369 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: good luck < 1323652768 612136 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: hey, at least i already know what a 2-zipper case of a simple tree looks like... < 1323652796 741920 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm i think the NCtx thing is unnecessary, the direction can always be inferred < 1323652808 852025 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the last path element you need to get to the tree in the metatree < 1323652822 984486 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-9-173.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1323652823 327408 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-9-173.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Changing host < 1323652823 504694 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1323652877 979484 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means that Ctx ~ NCtx < 1323652900 896719 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: SUCKER < 1323652907 949256 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yes, that's the point :) < 1323652926 871943 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: you can jut look at the Fork in the metatree, basically < 1323652952 517352 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the great tree beyond... < 1323653113 42281 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :why does tartar have so many different meanings... < 1323653116 623082 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i have a feeling a lot of complexity is added by the final step < 1323653120 248328 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that are COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT to one another. < 1323653121 11547 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i.e. zipperising the tree of zippers < 1323653142 356682 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: and actually I'm not sure it helps much; the order zippers are traversed in isn't the spatial order < 1323653159 583675 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i have a feeling that moving to the next zipper requires as much rejiggling as just going from the top each time, especially since zippers should be relatively few < 1323653179 255737 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the nicest thing would be to somehow zipperise it in a different order, but I don't think that's possible < 1323653181 315230 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1323653186 625635 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, I worry for my performance with thousands of IPs < 1323653284 186493 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :a titanic task < 1323653366 589084 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :idgi < 1323653392 772272 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: if it helps you understand, going from the initial Tip (Subtree t) case to one zipper turns it into Tip (Zipper ) < 1323653437 581013 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: i'm just saying there might be more than a Tip on that iceberg < 1323653448 393905 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: that... is the worst pun ever < 1323653470 915818 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :good pun < 1323653490 66411 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay < 1323653514 39634 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: DID THAT HELP YOU UNDERSTAND < 1323653522 37690 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I bet oerjan will come up with a worser pun in the future. < 1323653539 948014 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's his gift to the world. < 1323653558 304679 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not the gift i wanted, but it's the gift i have < 1323653589 643203 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And Libreoffice doesn't know how to open .gnumeric files. < 1323653590 636237 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lovely < 1323653627 33627 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1323653676 249142 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's try data interchange format < 1323653678 52604 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whatever that is < 1323653720 456591 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope. The formulas are gone. < 1323653729 383452 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :FUCK GNUMERIC WITH A RUSTY PICK-AXE-POKER < 1323653766 976464 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :poker? I 'ardly -- NO STOP AAAAAAH < 1323653875 993750 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think zeroth person to prove something refers to the person who proved something before the historically accepted proof < 1323653889 343945 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, if someone becomes well known as the "first person to prove spontaneous human combusion" < 1323653894 742401 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :then the zeroth would be the one before that. < 1323653971 557227 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: i am sure gnumeric can save in the openoffice format < 1323653977 287413 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it's a standard and everything. < 1323654010 336260 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :standards schmandards < 1323654047 657807 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, o.O I just needed to scroll down in the list of formats < 1323654052 661261 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: CLAP < 1323654053 392427 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CLAP < 1323654054 202663 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CLAP < 1323654054 903172 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CLAP < 1323654097 596229 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :no slow clap for you today < 1323654174 186300 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :99 + i problems but a bitch ain't one. < 1323654176 525785 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (CL)(~(A)*:(P )*S~:^):^ < 1323654176 703420 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :CLAP CLAAP CLAAAP CLAAAAP CLAAAAAP CLAAAAAAP CLAAAAAAAP CLAAAAAAAAP CLAAAAAAAAAP CLAAAAAAAAAAP CLAAAAAAAAAAAP CLAAAAAAAAAAAAP CLAAAAAAAAAAAAAP CLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP CLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP CLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP CLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP CLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP CLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP CLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP CLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP CLAAAAAAA ...too much output! < 1323654198 563059 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: < 1323654199 476691 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :addZipper :: [Dir] -> NZippers a -> NZippers a < 1323654199 654214 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :addZipper ps (Tip (Subtree t)) = Tip (Zipper (focus ps t)) < 1323654199 654392 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :addZipper ps (Tip (Zipper z)) = tricky < 1323654199 654501 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :addZipper (L:ps) (Branch a b) = Branch (addZipper ps a) b < 1323654199 654609 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :addZipper (R:ps) (Branch a b) = Branch a (addZipper ps b) < 1323654201 771390 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :progress :P < 1323654222 923304 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see there's a tricky part. < 1323654231 100903 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it _would_ be simple < 1323654240 366549 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it always looked like Branch (Tip (Zipper a)) (Tip (Zipper b)) afterwards < 1323654252 446400 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I _think_ you might end up needing to split out a piece into a Subtree < 1323654259 39770 :Klisz!~Klisz@c-67-162-128-110.hsd1.co.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1323654270 438385 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the part that neither zipper focuses on < 1323654283 439414 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least LibreOffice Calc doesn't display -1/2 as 1/2 < 1323654320 446844 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks for continually specifying the 'calc" part < 1323654327 23536 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought you were referring to the word processor < 1323654327 678349 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*" < 1323654380 220215 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Mining_Minerals STARCRAFT MATH < 1323654463 134347 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fsvo math < 1323654474 43633 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :people do more mathematics about minecraft < 1323654501 662809 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are other maths in starcraft. < 1323654558 182624 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :/home/elliott/Code/ntree/ntree.hs:23:33: Not in scope: `tricky' < 1323654559 91255 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: he;lp < 1323654609 432829 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: maybe you should try the newfangled SOS signal < 1323654747 963185 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1323654841 744824 :TeruFSX!~quassel@71-210-150-147.mpls.qwest.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1323654851 262312 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: that formula is stupid. why would they write it -I_f*d/(I_i-I_f) when I_f*d/(I_f-I_i) doesn't make you go "WHY ARE WE PUTTING A NEGATIVE AND PURPOSEFULLY SUBTRACTING THE BIGGER THING FROM THE SMALLER THING?' < 1323654897 283563 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1323654940 518203 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: more MATHS. < 1323655011 463237 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :good answer < 1323655041 298611 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should always use a double negation to spite the constructivists < 1323655068 466001 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :split [] _ = error "whoooops!!!" < 1323655068 643532 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :split (L:ps) (Fork R t up) = \x -> (focus ps t, (x, up)) < 1323655068 643786 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :split (R:ps) (Fork L t up) = \x -> ((x, up), focus ps t) < 1323655068 643896 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :split (L:ps) (Fork L t up) = help < 1323655068 644000 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :split (R:ps) (Fork R t up) = help!!! < 1323655071 817563 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: im a genus < 1323655096 322286 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :My kingdom for a genus < 1323655103 500244 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ runHaskell saveworld.hs < 1323655109 628377 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoooops!!! < 1323655119 682540 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that case is actually impossible though < 1323655120 164106 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :also < 1323655121 592761 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's runhaskell < 1323655122 533532 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :little h < 1323655132 751990 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :SO DEMANDING OF MY JOKES < 1323655173 953018 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: you realize if you used undefined or error you could at least get it typechecked? < 1323655176 246009 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it's not impossible but < 1323655179 309985 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you shouldn't do it < 1323655193 606425 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Max SendQ exceeded < 1323655198 662149 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: um yes but I need to figure these cases out :P < 1323655207 940656 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm filling them out now :P < 1323655293 144634 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i predict this will technically work but turn out to traverse the entire tree every time you change something ;P < 1323655315 354964 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: my guess is that starcraft players aren't very good at math, and that's just how they worked it out. < 1323655348 222066 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1323655354 887645 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :split [] _ _ = error "whoooops!!!" < 1323655355 65164 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :split (L:ps) (Fork R t up) x = Branch (Tip (Zipper (focus ps t))) (Tip (Zipper (x, up))) < 1323655355 65366 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :split (R:ps) (Fork L t up) x = Branch (Tip (Zipper (x, up))) (Tip (Zipper (focus ps t))) < 1323655355 65475 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :split (L:ps) (Fork L t up) x = Branch (split ps up x) (Tip (Subtree t)) < 1323655355 65578 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :split (R:ps) (Fork R t up) x = Branch (Tip (Subtree t)) (split ps up x) < 1323655358 535372 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :there we go, had to change the type a little < 1323655359 252128 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Max SendQ exceeded < 1323655361 715411 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: this is just for adding a _new_ zipper < 1323655370 209408 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: zipper-local modifications don't have to move anywhere at all < 1323655376 180924 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :O KAY < 1323655381 301148 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1323655391 623512 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: and moving a zipper is about as fast as moving a zipper normally < 1323655395 622708 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so SHUT YOUR MOUTH >:( < 1323655405 88501 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're just bitter that it's simpler >:) < 1323655424 794865 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not bitter, i just like to kick puppies < 1323655483 987705 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :addZipper :: [Dir] -> NZippers a -> NZippers a < 1323655484 165253 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :addZipper ps (Tip (Subtree t)) = Tip (Zipper (focus ps t)) < 1323655484 165432 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :addZipper ps (Tip (Zipper z)) = split ps z < 1323655484 165541 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :addZipper (L:ps) (Branch a b) = Branch (addZipper ps a) b < 1323655484 165644 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :addZipper (R:ps) (Branch a b) = Branch a (addZipper ps b) < 1323655484 573640 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :split :: [Dir] -> Zipper a -> NZippers a < 1323655486 512358 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :split [] _ = error "whoooops!!!" < 1323655488 497622 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :split (L:ps) (x, Fork R t up) = Branch (Tip (Zipper (focus ps t))) (Tip (Zipper (x, up))) < 1323655490 499523 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :split (R:ps) (x, Fork L t up) = Branch (Tip (Zipper (x, up))) (Tip (Zipper (focus ps t))) < 1323655492 528351 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :split (L:ps) (x, Fork L t up) = Branch (split ps (x, up)) (Tip (Subtree t)) < 1323655494 526947 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :split (R:ps) (x, Fork R t up) = Branch (Tip (Subtree t)) (split ps (x, up)) < 1323655496 510310 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :easy < 1323655498 464974 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it actually is pretty simple if you ignore the constructor cruft in split :P) < 1323655634 592483 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Main> addZipper [L,R,L] . addZipper [L,L,L] . focusN $ test < 1323655634 808495 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Branch (Branch (Tip (Zipper (1,Fork L (Tip 2) Top))) (Tip (Zipper (3,Fork L (Tip 4) Top)))) (Tip (Subtree (Branch (Branch (Tip 5) (Tip 6)) (Branch (Tip 7) (Tip 8))))) < 1323655638 743853 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: MEET YOUR NEW GOD!!! < 1323655815 556627 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :O KAY < 1323655870 467198 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: :( < 1323655877 372795 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I AM TRYING TO MAKE YOU FEEL BAD FOR OVERCOMPLICATING THINGS < 1323655886 6401 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(even though i quite likely will re-add some of the type safety stuff :P) < 1323656235 408541 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ok now for move. the best function. < 1323656389 814011 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :make your move, elliott < 1323656397 285399 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1323656553 493304 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: when did you discover your pun calling < 1323656557 529184 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :like that one moment < 1323656560 884789 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :where you were like < 1323656561 418924 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1323656562 997864 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is what i must do < 1323656571 184921 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is my purpose in life. < 1323656586 170902 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :same day he became a theist < 1323656604 279235 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: he's already said he disagreed with that label, sheesh < 1323656660 664712 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can go to whatever past label I want. < 1323656664 681693 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_> < 1323656709 729897 :warg!~warggles@069-064-236-042.pdx.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1323656723 664147 :ChanServ!ChanServ@services. MODE #esoteric +o :oerjan > 1323656723 750183 NAMES :#esoteric < 1323656733 968614 :warg!~warggles@069-064-236-042.pdx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you seriously registered my name? < 1323656737 858865 :warg!~warggles@069-064-236-042.pdx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1323656746 409403 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no MODE #esoteric +b :*!*@*.pdx.net > 1323656746 420813 NAMES :#esoteric < 1323656750 396804 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no KICK #esoteric warg :warg < 1323656775 744270 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no MODE #esoteric -b :*!*warg@*.pdx.net > 1323656775 766551 NAMES :#esoteric < 1323656792 29776 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no MODE #esoteric -b :*!*lament@184.71.170.* > 1323656792 52134 NAMES :#esoteric < 1323656813 482018 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no MODE #esoteric -o :oerjan > 1323656813 492711 NAMES :#esoteric < 1323656858 449730 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: hey, that's going against another op's decision! < 1323656858 804943 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :registered his name? < 1323656860 91030 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :without discussion! < 1323656891 248970 :PiRSquared17!~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1323656895 507037 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament banned himself :) < 1323656903 853759 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION considers joining #wikipedia-en and seeing wtf warg is doing there. < 1323656934 55913 :PiRSquared17!~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastebin.com/ShGiLDDP < 1323656936 769023 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: use a different name to disguys yoreself < 1323656945 140952 :PiRSquared17!~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Banned? < 1323656973 27911 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol wow < 1323656974 50688 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament? yes < 1323656980 29858 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :he is perhaps not the biggest fan of this channel :p < 1323656984 657699 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :click link < 1323656989 216432 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: click it < 1323656993 586992 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the pastebin one? < 1323656994 197383 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did < 1323656999 973240 :PiRSquared17!~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's warg < 1323657002 128175 :ChanServ!ChanServ@services. MODE #esoteric +o :oerjan > 1323657002 147195 NAMES :#esoteric < 1323657003 907954 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah :P < 1323657015 893506 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :smart guy. < 1323657022 166672 :PiRSquared17!~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :except for the "...", which was someone else < 1323657070 559638 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: wat < 1323657101 595910 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: casting magic spells < 1323657104 679335 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it takes a while. < 1323657120 322640 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: waht are you doign i ACCUSE YOU OF SUSPICIOUS!!nes < 1323657121 283139 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :s < 1323657160 751965 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am trying to /ban *!*@069-064-236-*.pdx.net but it's not working < 1323657207 984991 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it's because of overlap < 1323657221 340654 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :try *!*@* < 1323657224 524005 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no MODE #esoteric -b :*!*@*.pdx.net > 1323657224 546750 NAMES :#esoteric < 1323657228 425237 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no MODE #esoteric +b :*!*@069-064-236-*.pdx.net > 1323657228 447879 NAMES :#esoteric < 1323657233 706865 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah so it was < 1323657240 391159 :PiRSquared17!~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You banned *!*@* ??? < 1323657245 69318 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously < 1323657254 725846 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no MODE #esoteric -o :oerjan > 1323657254 747216 NAMES :#esoteric < 1323657315 42274 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I wonder why lament did ban himself < 1323657343 189325 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: someone else joined here yelling some nonsense, lament followed him < 1323657354 313407 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and said that he had asked him (lament) to ban everyone in here, and asked who he should start with < 1323657360 5914 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i said the other guy and lament < 1323657363 199716 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so he opped himself < 1323657364 885724 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :banned the other guy < 1323657366 559057 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :banned himself < 1323657369 727260 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and kicked both < 1323657370 674910 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :no I know the story < 1323657373 771550 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that doesn't explain why. < 1323657374 659793 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. < 1323657380 656247 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :because i told him to and he hates this channel? < 1323657388 240566 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that makes no sense. < 1323657393 307785 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybeh e was druhnk < 1323657394 809352 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea how it came up in whatever other channel that happened in (I think #not-math or something) < 1323657398 420247 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: why does it make no sense < 1323657400 121713 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's very simple < 1323657406 987591 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you hate a channel, you don't care about whether or not you're banned in it < 1323657415 401471 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1323657433 939294 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it sounds like he wanted to CAUSE trouble. < 1323657440 12099 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :also he could just not join < 1323657443 22458 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of that. < 1323657463 379132 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was obviously some sort of flamewar or something going on < 1323657471 648804 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1323657481 77247 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are basically saying "it is really weird that lament is kind of an asshole" < 1323657484 422047 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is < 1323657485 818229 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :NO < 1323657487 491264 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello! have you ever talked to lament < 1323657508 385847 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :more like "it's really weird that lament would join a channel threatening to ban people and then ban himself when told to do so" < 1323657524 502985 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it wasn't "threatening", he was obviously trying to piss the other guy off < 1323657563 314243 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you say so. < 1323657603 921114 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps it's more obvious in the lowgs < 1323657819 106768 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should write something in ATS sometime. < 1323657829 808838 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :eeeeeys < 1323657873 684018 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`word 25 < 1323657878 148112 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :jli rocrismaropjohlen inappelchth lowelons gamuto cara drondaed chon deremg hunmanstiontelfydeardemetarvapt licca luch eruins hannge prayacift besberstargeightsant deileikoshamen gallornan cass ilvan bestonsidesse fyismingentattationos rectiontuayeity inamits tapopfgran < 1323657895 749267 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wish english was `word < 1323657904 787587 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :me too. < 1323657996 380913 :calamari!~calamari@ip72-211-147-156.tc.ph.cox.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1323658162 547942 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: help i can't write a simple function :( < 1323658187 480222 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the worst part is it's a function on regular zippers :D < 1323658192 595515 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: write a complex one instead. < 1323658214 5449 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :seem to be pretty good at those. < 1323658216 136229 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that's the ticket < 1323658243 489800 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :if nothing else works, convert via XML. < 1323658287 913580 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I bet I can write thefu nction < 1323658329 554518 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: move :: Dir -> Zipper a -> Maybe (Zipper a); moves in that direction (treating the underlying tree as 1-dimensional space as quadtrees do for 2-dimensional space) < 1323658332 191199 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Tree a = Tip a | Branch (Tree a) (Tree a) deriving (Show) < 1323658332 368677 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Dir = L | R deriving (Show) < 1323658332 368870 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Ctx a = Top | Fork Dir (Tree a) (Ctx a) deriving (Show) < 1323658332 368978 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :type Zipper a = (a, Ctx a) < 1323658333 324723 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :enjoy < 1323658396 848237 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :move R (a,Fork R ... FUCK THIS < 1323658399 728589 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1323658591 360283 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: is that somehow different from a regular zipper move? < 1323658601 212368 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really understand the "treated as 1-dimensional space" part. < 1323658662 575852 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: well you might have to ascend an arbitrary amount... < 1323658672 884583 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the space thing is obvious < 1323658677 815169 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you divide it into halves, forever < 1323658686 584239 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :think cantor set < 1323658697 136996 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :except obviously a finite number of halvings because the space is finite < 1323658717 815174 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: Ping < 1323658726 970880 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay so basically sometimes moving right or left makes you move up? < 1323658744 804003 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: always, in fact. since zippers are always on a laef < 1323658745 705739 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :leaf < 1323658752 820345 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they at least have to ascend one to go down to the neighbour < 1323658758 193099 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, didn't know that. < 1323658788 569679 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : type Zipper a = (a, Ctx a) < 1323658790 907483 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :these zippers are < 1323658802 812199 :Klisz!~Klisz@c-67-162-128-110.hsd1.co.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: You are now graced with my absence. < 1323658810 419214 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :move L (t, Fork R t' ctx) = Just (t', Fork L t ctx) < 1323658830 782995 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the easy one < 1323658839 470654 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-228-21.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Gnip < 1323658854 682396 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: magnet:?xt=urn:btih:8837dd230bf2fbaf49a4ec45b9c3334ad74eeb7e < 1323658874 854208 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yeah < 1323658876 320540 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :same for R/L < 1323658884 871595 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :um no < 1323658889 97909 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: you read the definition of Zipper wrong < 1323658896 655676 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need to match t' against (Tip x) < 1323658898 850185 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which it always will be) < 1323658900 820409 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-228-21.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Care to tell me why I care? < 1323658912 684208 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(since the tree is balanced like that, etc.) < 1323658918 339150 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: It's DHT, man! It's MAGICAL. < 1323658920 894068 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hm < 1323658934 8742 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-228-21.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 peers YAY < 1323658946 962477 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOT FOR LONG!!!!! < 1323658947 574176 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe for long, depending on how MAGICAL the DHT is feeling this time of year. < 1323658963 805116 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I'm connected to a very well-seeded torrent that I WON'T DISCLOSE SINCE GOING VIA A KNOWN INTERMEDIATE IS TOTALLY CHEATING. < 1323658988 591510 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I think like half the internet are on this one, so it can't take THAT long. < 1323659042 483734 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :move' :: Dir -> Tree a -> Ctx a -> Maybe (Tree a, Ctx a) < 1323659073 205685 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :for moving at higher levels < 1323659092 113236 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: Hmmm, I have this huge hunch that Transmission just fails at DHT seeding somehow. < 1323659098 640441 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: right < 1323659132 921739 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey! I've talked to one of the inventors of the DHT BitTorrent uses. And I never even knew. < 1323659145 780727 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-228-21.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Could be. < 1323659156 228448 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'M TOTALLY FAMOUS? < 1323659233 636906 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: It would probably work if you downloaded ubuntu-11.10-desktop-i386.iso, but that's cheating :'( < 1323659246 72110 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I was connected to OVER 500 PEERS before! OVER 500 PEERS!) < 1323659249 396755 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-228-21.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I actually did for a few minutes. < 1323659258 59728 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dammit, how did you guess :P < 1323659273 767505 :h[A]gb4rd!~perdito@koln-5d81ec5a.pool.mediaWays.net NICK :hagb4rd < 1323659275 958526 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-228-21.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Popular torrent that's trivial to find. < 1323659289 449205 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess Transmission just can't do it for some reason, then. < 1323659318 486158 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION considers implementing Kademlia. < 1323659329 575420 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It looks really cool. < 1323659368 634866 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :move' L (t, Fork L t' ctx) = do (Branch u u', ctx') <- move L (Branch t t', ctx); return (u', Fork R u ctx') < 1323659402 248164 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I wish Haskell had better support for point-free with multiple return values :-( < 1323659432 506819 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: that and its mirror should be the hardest case, i think < 1323659443 303114 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, s/move /move' / < 1323659449 625677 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: exercise to the reader, eh :P < 1323659453 944900 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*for < 1323659484 920714 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: well i can tell your implementation is wrong. < 1323659489 379185 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it doesn't type. < 1323659500 406859 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: i changed the type a bit < 1323659506 33692 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok :P < 1323659532 215546 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually that's not necessary < 1323659554 120752 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :move' L t (Fork L t' ctx) = do (Branch u u', ctx') <- move L (Branch t t') ctx; return (u', Fork R u ctx') < 1323659568 692427 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/move /move' / again < 1323659731 770249 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :move' L t (Fork L t' ctx) = do (Branch u u', ctx') <- move L (Branch t t') ctx; return (u', Fork R u ctx') < 1323659731 947629 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :move' R t (Fork R t' ctx) = do (Branch u u', ctx') <- move R (Branch t t') ctx; return (Fork R u ctx', u') < 1323659732 488107 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :right? < 1323659896 200604 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: s/move /move' / i said ;P < 1323659908 381188 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yes yes < 1323659912 829497 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but did i flip anything around ;_; < 1323659914 808347 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i must have < 1323659921 5903 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :because its return tuple isn't homogeneous < 1323659931 105213 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I forgot to s/R/L/ < 1323659938 815775 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :move' L t (Fork L t' ctx) = do (Branch u u', ctx') <- move L (Branch t t') ctx; return (u', Fork R u ctx') < 1323659938 993224 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :move' R t (Fork R t' ctx) = do (Branch u u', ctx') <- move R (Branch t t') ctx; return (u', Fork L u ctx') < 1323659940 453215 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :you flipped the wrong things :P < 1323659941 270541 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :help am i right........... < 1323659949 622899 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: FIX THE DAMN moves < 1323659952 829800 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok done < 1323659953 412408 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1323660017 698381 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no the last one isn't right < 1323660068 127301 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :move' R t (Fork R t' ctx) = do (Branch u u', ctx') <- move' R (Branch t' t) ctx; return (u, Fork L u' ctx') < 1323660082 631631 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, right < 1323660095 667836 :hagb4rd2!~perdito@koln-4d0b7179.pool.mediaWays.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1323660098 912656 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i should have called the branches something with l/r in them < 1323660107 137447 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :er subtrees < 1323660109 568869 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i agree :P < 1323660114 639178 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-5d81ec5a.pool.mediaWays.net QUIT :Disconnected by services < 1323660125 669271 :hagb4rd2!~perdito@koln-4d0b7179.pool.mediaWays.net NICK :hagb4rd < 1323660249 571094 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :also i think the distinction between move and move' will disappear if you make it type safe in the same way as in one of our previous discussions. < 1323660282 478067 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I agree. < 1323660298 701097 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: but I'd like to get this done /first/ so that (a) I know what it'll look like, and (b) I can revert if it gets too messy < 1323660479 728495 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :because this is essentially one of the go/select/moveLeft/Right functions that was written back then < 1323660522 367273 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, two of them < 1323660576 372202 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1323660876 167345 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: actually i think i will move back to a zipper-tree-of-zip-nodes solution, it seems to have benefits... < 1323660897 636200 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the worst case is the best case of the tree-of-zip-nodes option :P < 1323660929 340532 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :as long as the process converges < 1323660971 816114 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: are you suggesting that i might end up with a zipper-of-zipper-of-... :P < 1323661012 213865 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :IT'S ZIPPERS ALL THE WAY DOWN < 1323661053 404468 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pull your zippers all the way down. < 1323661265 447383 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1323661337 396012 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have connected the DVD recorder's output to a digital video stabilizer (which is not turned on; it has no power source) and then the digital video stabilizer's output to the DVD recorder's input. What happens is that the menu is cancelled, it remains visible but becomes increasingly blurry and then fades away. < 1323661369 357527 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I connected the RF out to the TV set) < 1323661585 438458 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you think of such things as this???? < 1323661602 138519 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1323661702 162708 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :me too < 1323661707 107021 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose it is like composite video feedback? < 1323661908 935994 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is this monad transformer m (x, m x) < 1323662154 531994 :PiRSquared17!~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1323662223 944634 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :@mtl m (x, m x) < 1323662224 188762 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you meant: ft map msg pl unmtl url < 1323662245 439550 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :@unmtl ReaderT < 1323662245 905533 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plugin `unmtl' failed with: `ReaderT' is not applied to enough arguments, giving `/\A B C. A -> B C' < 1323662265 75844 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most helpful error message ever < 1323662286 719711 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you being sarcastic? < 1323662295 859697 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it IS helpful! < 1323662327 353578 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: anyway itym writer < 1323662339 319066 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed. It was as good as if I had used @unmtl correctly < 1323662353 975092 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because it gave the type at the end < 1323662360 206937 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :@unmtl WriterT < 1323662360 524664 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plugin `unmtl' failed with: `WriterT' is not applied to enough arguments, giving `/\A B C. B (C, A)' < 1323662377 294037 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :@unmtl WriterT (m x) m x < 1323662377 486889 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :m (x, m x) < 1323662377 664200 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :not type < 1323662380 628340 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :definition < 1323662408 345310 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Type definition < 1323662425 17452 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: that relies on Monoid (m a), anyway < 1323662446 664849 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1323662879 747089 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could define mappend = (>>), mempty is a little awkward. < 1323662893 981320 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I have managed to define the monad and comonad transformers for the type I have given < 1323662919 706615 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Any Alternative or MonadPlus instance is a monoid (or, at least, should be a monoid, although some aren't) < 1323662978 507053 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm i guess getting x >> mempty = x is difficult < 1323663072 306252 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Yes..... If the type inside is monoid, then you can make applicative monoid by: mempty = pure mempty; mappend = liftA2 mappend; < 1323663074 840276 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :aka (>>) = const < 1323663147 953361 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: um it's supposed to old only for mempty < 1323663160 761905 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :but for all x of the same type < 1323663185 797677 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*hold < 1323663254 414285 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right < 1323663341 214295 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :As far as I know, the only way is Alternative/MonadPlus and the other way I specified < 1323663373 676279 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it basically doesn't work because of the derivable law fmap f x >> y = x >> y < 1323663423 489863 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means if y = mempty, fmap f x = x for all f of the right type < 1323663462 138762 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it is a constant functor, then < 1323663466 195431 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or put differently, >> never preserves the return value of its first argument. < 1323663522 156513 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can work for m (), but not much else < 1323663533 599913 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ignoring undefined) < 1323663564 835671 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Yes it works with m () I did not think of that at first but yes < 1323663683 377017 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :But this way is going to work as long as return type is monoids (and it works for any Applicative; it doesn't necessarily have to be Monad): mempty = pure mempty; mappend = liftA2 mappend; < 1323663732 913974 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least, I think it is! < 1323663766 155486 :cheater_!~cheater@ip-80-226-24-12.vodafone-net.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1323663776 662323 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes i think so. basically you can do the same with any algebraic structure instead of Monoid. < 1323663861 58881 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :like lambdabot does with Num and -> < 1323663879 674437 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (2 + id) 5 < 1323663881 401912 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : 7 < 1323663895 699509 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Conal < 1323663901 485063 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it imports Conal's module to do that < 1323663905 37097 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1323663910 486843 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :which conal moduel < 1323663928 78697 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://hackage.haskell.org/package/NumInstances < 1323663990 371850 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like how looking at the Haddock page is completely useless < 1323664013 255748 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: They have source codes views, too, though. < 1323664029 286926 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :True < 1323664059 497809 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :lift2 :: (a->u) -> (b->v) -> (a,b) -> (u,v) < 1323664059 675310 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :liftA2 :: (a->b->u) -> (c->a) -> (c->b) -> (c->u) < 1323664065 529774 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it feels like there must be a way to relate these two < 1323664083 880824 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :or at least < 1323664101 577829 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo :: (a->b->c) -> (a,a) -> (b,b) -> (c,c) < 1323664112 828301 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :lift2 looks familiar < 1323664119 956263 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(***)? < 1323664123 959357 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have made proper Eq and Ord and Show instance for some functions. < 1323664129 422187 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, accoridng to the soirce < 1323664132 989695 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tyop < 1323664142 893059 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1323664160 519445 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :NO IWAS GOING < 1323664161 798167 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :TO ASK YOU < 1323664162 385467 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :;_; < 1323664168 218808 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1323664212 436822 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :At first I made a AllValues class, and then I made instance (Eq y, AllValues x) => Eq (x -> y) instance (AllValues x, AllValues y) => AllValues (x -> y) instance (AllValues x, AllValues y) => Ord (x -> y) instance (AllValues x, AllValues y) => Enum (x -> y) instance (AllValues x, AllValues y) => Bounded (x -> y) instance (AllValues x, Show x, AllValues y, Show y) => Show (x -> y) < 1323664240 744617 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is AllValues < 1323664270 663122 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :class Eq x => AllValues x where { allValues :: [x]; }; It make a list of all values < 1323664327 347858 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :instance AllValues Zero where { allValues = []; }; instance AllValues () where { allValues = [()]; }; instance AllValues Bool where { allValues = [False, True]; }; < 1323664334 601002 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/AllValues/Countable/ :) < 1323664360 825033 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :instance AllValues x => AllValues (Maybe x) where { allValues = Nothing : (Just <$> allValues); }; instance (AllValues x, AllValues y) => AllValues (x, y) where { allValues = liftM2 (,) allValues allValues; }; instance (AllValues x, AllValues y) => AllValues (Either x y) where { allValues = (Left <$> allValues) ++ (Right <$> allValues); }; < 1323664526 789108 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION notes http://sprunge.us/LZRT to self < 1323664538 956827 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Do you need (Eq a)? < 1323664550 431541 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :instance (AllValues x, AllValues y) => AllValues (Either x y) where { allValues = (Left <$> allValues) ++ (Right <$> allValues); }; < 1323664556 85198 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should probably interleave rather than (++) < 1323664557 621140 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :consider Integer < 1323664572 874504 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think the point is that infinite lists are criminal < 1323664577 42993 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :note Bounded instance < 1323664781 738302 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but does the bounded instance even work < 1323664781 915631 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is m (x, m x) and what is m (m () -> x) < 1323664836 973809 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: instance (AllValues x, AllValues y) => Bounded (x -> y) where { minBound = const $ head allValues; maxBound = const $ last allValues; }; < 1323664861 509469 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: how does nethack prevent save-scumming apart from permissions, again? ISTR that it deletes your gamefile under some circumstance < 1323664900 626906 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :are there any Bounded laws < 1323664916 189558 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :maxBound >= minBound, one suspects :P < 1323664957 885995 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note with (Zero -> Zero) that you have allValues = [id] and meaning $0^0=1$ as well < 1323665045 198131 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :|0^0| = 1 is easy to prove, set-theory wise, I think. < 1323665056 696403 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you need extensional equality < 1323665282 789508 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is all using extensional equality. < 1323665586 299767 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I don't mean your instance, I mean in type theory < 1323665616 955224 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :where = denotes actual equality (i.e. only refl : x = x, extensionality being an additional, optional axiom), so you can't just define an instance of it, you have to prove things :) < 1323665678 957552 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Extensionality is probably useful with a lot of things in Haskell, though < 1323665693 495088 :PiRSquared!~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 JOIN :#esoteric < 1323665860 198864 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION thinks for his second skyrim character he'll focus on stealth and illusion. < 1323665921 947869 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and conjuration I guess. < 1323665943 862073 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :also vampire because they works well with stealth and illusion < 1323665968 442433 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can literally sneak around dungeons, frenzying enemies and conjuring things without actually killing a single thing. < 1323666407 954294 :PiRSquared!~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 8.0.1/20111120135848] < 1323666425 52138 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1323666514 326465 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: write my code. wait, no, you'll fuck it up < 1323666647 975465 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :split (L:ps) (x, Fork R t up) = Branch (Tip (Zipper (focus ps t))) (Tip (Zipper (x, up))) < 1323666648 192355 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :split (R:ps) (x, Fork L t up) = Branch (Tip (Zipper (x, up))) (Tip (Zipper (focus ps t))) < 1323666648 192539 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :note to self: maybe make this a bit smarter? I think I can try and balance the tree between the two < 1323667090 993098 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it deletes the savefile if it notices inconsistencies, e.g. a level file having been renamed (which would otherwise duplicate the level), or an open level file having the wrong stored PID (i.e. copied from a different game) < 1323667126 202604 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: heh < 1323667140 857660 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I wonder why, did it not always use to be setgid? < 1323667149 592961 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :savescumming by directly copying the savefile isn't detected < 1323667156 695603 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's for non-setgid setups, or people cheating using sudo, etc < 1323667163 741156 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or Windows < 1323667175 827327 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheating with sudo sure is impossible now! < 1323667275 431572 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-228-21.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1323667552 874916 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even in UNIX some player could have their own private copy to do whatever they want to, and then keep the high scores file separate from the system score file. < 1323667560 417779 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-228-21.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1323667601 473112 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have sudo then of course you can cheat by changing whatever files you want < 1323667698 58024 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: nethack only reads from the system directories < 1323667704 952209 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :a user could, of course, compile their own version < 1323667711 459729 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it wouldn't be recorded in the system's high score files and so on < 1323667727 447678 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can't copy out things from the data directory < 1323667731 78375 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :since users don't have read permissions on them < 1323667771 530971 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could determine the RNG seed by doing a huge number of RNG-reading actions at the start of the game < 1323667782 682128 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I doubt NetHack's RNG is insecure enough for that to be practical; ais523? < 1323667794 317447 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: heh, hahahahaha < 1323667798 158132 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this has been discussed to death already < 1323667804 342029 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Adeon even has a rainbow table < 1323667808 312533 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1323667809 40941 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Yes, it is like I have mentioned. But if you have sudo then you can affect any file so you can easily cheat like that < 1323667814 405132 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it _is_ possible? < 1323667818 228472 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :only locally, one presumes < 1323667824 335793 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in unpatched versions, yes; it just uses libc rng < 1323667828 233039 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which only has a 32-bit keyspace < 1323667833 513685 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1323667838 243857 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, not relevant for the remote-use situation < 1323667839 313828 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless, hmm < 1323667840 560764 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is small enough for rainbow tables to be practical < 1323667845 278896 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess you could script nethack remotely < 1323667848 611455 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :with ptys and shit < 1323667849 396195 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :most servers have cryptoRNGs now, though < 1323667854 723847 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :same way as locally, one presumes < 1323667858 230234 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :precisely to stop that sort of shenanigans < 1323667859 651420 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could use RNG that partially uses private files that users do not have access to, and adjust those files some times < 1323667861 659681 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'm assuming a UNIX shell account setup < 1323667864 25242 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :which just happens to have nethack < 1323667871 100975 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the only setting nethack's weird security choices make sense in < 1323667874 834925 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: oh, that'd probably have libc rng, and the rainbow tables would work fine < 1323667879 200238 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1323667892 263633 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: but how big are they :P < 1323667901 992883 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"how big"? < 1323667906 323495 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the tables < 1323667923 213718 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: well, that doesn't help if the RNG's output is still too small < 1323667928 39556 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd guess a little over 4 GiB < 1323667932 792347 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm, 16 GiB < 1323667938 874377 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: right, so that wouldn't work for a shell account. < 1323667943 376357 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :need to fit 4-billion 4-byte numbers in there < 1323667950 856744 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can brute-force it reasonably easily, it's just much slower < 1323667955 260799 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :they usually have quotas :) < 1323667964 34272 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well, of course you can; the question is how much slower < 1323667974 534775 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :"nethack is turn based. < 1323667987 977814 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :You just won't get any time records. < 1323667990 448510 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: yes, it is < 1323667993 1706 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :4 billion item ID generations would probably be done in a few minutes on a modern system < 1323667998 235916 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you have a unix shell account on a large server < 1323668003 204266 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and peg the CPU for a few weeks < 1323668008 134559 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you won't have a unix shell account for much longer < 1323668010 770365 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for a wizard, starting inventory generally gives enough entropy to determine the RNG by itself < 1323668021 835467 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: right < 1323668026 841474 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :won't at least 4 billion turns pass, though? < 1323668036 981313 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice 19 ./winnethack < 1323668037 534086 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd ideally want a zero-turn RNG observation < 1323668042 193424 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: 2347892349234 weeks :P < 1323668056 748029 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no? you look at the appearances of all the random items in your inventory, write them down, save, then put them into your bruteforce script < 1323668070 45832 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, kallisti, update < 1323668093 562543 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1323668094 217967 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hmm, but surely that has fewer bits than the RNG state < 1323668111 522462 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has way more than 32 bitsw < 1323668112 976056 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*bits < 1323668116 142574 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :32 bits is not a lot of bits < 1323668119 722814 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can also just look at the current time, can't you < 1323668123 352551 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :And pid < 1323668129 53631 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: oh, right, 32-bit state < 1323668133 328635 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: right, in an unpatched version it's seeded with current time < 1323668138 51120 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you don't even need to reverse the seed < 1323668147 567274 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but what if you have a patch for that but not the other thing!!! :P < 1323668184 960250 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: that was the situation on NAO for a while < 1323668188 428247 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's why the rainbow tables were invented < 1323668191 113167 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1323668198 659896 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but this is a shell account scenario! you're ruining everything < 1323668240 183793 :MDude!~fyrc@c-174-55-44-190.hsd1.pa.comcast.net NICK :MSleep < 1323668283 306268 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait what? how did I miss http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Merthese < 1323668285 526988 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :NAO is not much different from a shell account that only lets you play nethack < 1323668293 856840 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it needs to be added to categories and lists < 1323668301 562594 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just not sure whether regular or joke < 1323668317 98140 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : wait what? how did I miss http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Merthese < 1323668319 450932 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's rather reminiscent of HQ9+, just less interesting < 1323668323 71884 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: under the massive, crippling delude of spam, one presumse < 1323668324 704435 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*presumes < 1323668330 814399 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: "only" being the key thing < 1323668336 895284 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't compile a local copy of nethack < 1323668354 373718 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :compile nethack on the shell account? it's not like its source isn't available, and you probably have some cc < 1323668397 72420 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I swear there was a reason for it at the time < 1323668448 439518 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hussie, learn2relativity < 1323668600 544191 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1323668609 995237 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks -- monqy, 2011 < 1323668615 442957 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :-- monqy's tombstone, 2012 < 1323668632 360870 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but was monqy ever alive < 1323668650 27525 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: do you think there'll be mass panic in 2013 from all the people who thought the world would end in 2012? < 1323668663 955661 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it's december 21st, so I assume the panic will be on december 22nd. < 1323668670 901756 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :or 23rd, perhaps < 1323668679 665496 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah, most 2012 conspiratorist people don't care about the exact date < 1323668684 963995 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, they do < 1323668690 31430 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the mayan calendar date, they care about it more than anything < 1323668697 613523 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ofc they'll find another wacky thing to believe in afterwards < 1323668697 900953 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :people actually believe? < 1323668702 186529 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it isn't just "2012", it's december 21st, 2012 < 1323668707 896818 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i predict: suicides < 1323668720 431450 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :which makes no sense, but it happened in Y2K < 1323668729 770538 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*on Y2K < 1323668741 446798 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :We should start a cult that promotes mass suicide on that day. < 1323668746 313623 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would get rid of a lot of dumb people. < 1323668758 87637 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"social darwinism" --Jafet, 2011 < 1323668787 729706 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :"applied memetics" < 1323668792 354967 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Isn't that just regular Darwinism? < 1323668801 441790 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1323668836 673204 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I don't think so. < 1323668864 605131 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Darwinism is about natural situations; Social Darwinism is trying to "help" Darwinism along by killing people indirectly. < 1323668878 685333 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Well, very imprecisely.) < 1323668887 769956 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has a very broad definition of "natural". < 1323668887 947321 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Social darwinism does not really have much to do with Darwinism.) < 1323668914 270613 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: If you intentionally practice social darwinism, it means you don't believe Darwinism works by itself. < 1323668923 40233 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Huh? No. < 1323668933 236112 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure it does. < 1323668956 522395 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's like saying that thinking and making decisions is "deviating from evolution" because it's not acting on "instinct" anymore. < 1323668984 440117 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :By the way elliott, nice racking us up to one godwin < 1323668991 909032 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It kind of is? The "purpose" of evolution is to keep you alive and reproducing until you're 20-something. < 1323669000 150963 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe Darwinism works by itself, and sometimes it works *through* people intentionally practicing X. < 1323669001 646275 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: Nobody's said the word Nazi yet! This is at most 0.75 Godwins. < 1323669015 393391 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where X can be anything. < 1323669042 313457 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION also thinks that believing Darwinism "should" work is ridiculous. Or even saying it *does* "work", theories don't work, they're just true or not. < 1323669055 158226 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. I hope Hitler is never mentioned in this conversation. < 1323669066 167475 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shut up, Jafet "Hitler" Jafet. < 1323669077 365879 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: But you did, right now, isn't it? < 1323669110 467431 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: That's a very narrow-minded view of the "purpose" of evolution. < 1323669151 653260 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I don't really see how, but hopefully I'm using enough "scare quotes" to convey that I don't think the terminology is worthwhile in the first place. < 1323669169 416565 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 JOIN :#esoteric < 1323669183 268261 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, for example, it assumes that you're talking about humans. < 1323669214 182077 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, the "purpose" of evolution is whatever happens. < 1323669218 605305 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the 20-something part does, definitely. < 1323669222 314965 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I agree with that. < 1323669232 660698 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which just makes social Darwinism all the more ridiculous, are we violently agreeing? < 1323669248 667060 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it is suicide cult, then you have to insist on exactly the date 13.0.0.0.0 and make the method of suicide depending on your time of birth or whatever (maybe suicide by being eaten by sharks or whatever so that at least hungry animal can survive even if people don't) < 1323669264 318568 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Yes, definitely. < 1323669277 410866 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I'm not sure what social Darwinism is anymore, so I have no idea. < 1323669342 871059 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I don't think its supporters know, either, but everything I've heard from them boils down to "weak people are inferior, and therefore we should not have because it'd be better if they just died instead". < 1323669352 638688 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish that was an unfair caricature. < 1323669424 288073 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-228-21.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :As though evolution made any sort of judgement beyond "this reproduces, this does not" < 1323669425 304579 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: That seems, in a sense, reasonable to me. < 1323669449 395263 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But if you don't support social Darwinism then you should at least support eugenics. < 1323669475 345333 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-228-21.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Perhaps if one presumes a truly perfect judge of what we "ought" to have? < 1323669496 101846 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"ought"? I'm not a moralist, I don't know about "ought". < 1323669497 645857 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I don't see how; justifying it with Darwinism certainly doesn't make any sense, and "weaker = less worthy of life" is beyond ridiculous. < 1323669504 224947 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: And no, I don't support eugenics. < 1323669543 431764 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Who said anything about "worthy"? < 1323669558 33624 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-228-21.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The truly obvious fault with eugenics is that someone has to make the call on that. And inevitably, this call is going to be disliked. Some *deity* might be able to make perfect eugenic selections that everyone would agree is reasonable. < 1323669562 133639 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-228-21.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :We don't have deities. < 1323669570 671178 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, humanity certainly embraces "different = less worthy of life". < 1323669571 740011 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: If you think that weaker people should die, then it seems a fair assessment to say you think weaker people are less worthy of life? < 1323669589 460937 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-228-21.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :We live in a world where "different" implies "undeserving of life". < 1323669590 277996 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And maybe humanity does, but I certainly don't, and it's ridiculous to suggest that we must. < 1323669599 15058 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I don't think "should" is a word I would use. < 1323669621 954650 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : But if you don't support social Darwinism then you >>>should<<< at least support eugenics. < 1323669623 250641 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: You don't? < 1323669627 442508 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Q.E.D. bitches! < 1323669636 750254 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: That was meant in a non-moral sense. < 1323669640 451774 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was a joke. < 1323669641 551545 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, fine. < 1323669658 358916 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: The fact that I don't embrace "different = less worthy of life" surprises you? < 1323669662 862494 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you need to define "different". < 1323669664 199860 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I certainly think we must treat things that are sufficiently different, like bacteria, as less worthy of life. < 1323669696 202414 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some people draw the line at "other humans"; some draw it at "seemingly conscious animals"; some draw it at "humans sufficiently similar to me". < 1323669702 678858 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that's *very* different; it's non-sentient. < 1323669705 406202 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see one of those as all that objectively different from the others. < 1323669710 986386 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't support eugenics and I don't support "different = less worthy of life" but not having public service is a much more complicated decision to make. < 1323669747 491309 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-228-21.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: If we only deal with objective differences, we are all merely different arrangements of mass. < 1323669757 217831 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Well, exactly. < 1323669758 614975 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-228-21.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :This, of course, is a completely worthless viewpoint. < 1323669761 29199 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: So are you against the killing of sentient animals? < 1323669766 468163 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Things that aren't sentient have as much right as tables. But I essentially agree with pikhq; if you insist on complete "objectivity", then you'll never derive anything of *human* moral use. < 1323669786 418524 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And yeah, yeah, "not a moralist", but you're definitely making judgements.) < 1323669803 450020 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'm being a devil's advocate more than making judgements. :-) < 1323669853 477206 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :You shouldn't break a table for no reason either; because then it cannot be used to put stuff on there. < 1323669866 411582 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: You speak wise words. < 1323669933 401209 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Broadly, yes. Stopping sentient animals from dying is a very important thing. I admit I eat meat, and thus support the killing of sentient animals. It's hard to defend this, I admit, and some of it surely must be chalked up to my human irrationality, but I think stopping eating meat would have completely neglegible effect on the meat industry, and I don't think enough people make judgements th < 1323669933 578620 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :e way I do for it to be important, morally, for me to decide not to eat meat. < 1323669975 709770 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: "I think voting would have a completely negligible effect on the voting industry", etc. < 1323669996 10390 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION doesn't eat meat, and is therefore obviously morally superior to you! < 1323670007 934460 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: You missed the important part of that message. < 1323670009 975130 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(That's actually not a thing I say, despite not eating meat.) < 1323670016 503809 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"and I don't think enough people make judgements the way I do for it to be important, morally" < 1323670024 750177 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is OK to be vegetarian (or vegan) if you want to, or to eat meat. But, is better for the such animals dead only if you must eat instead of for other purposes such as just to use fur or whatever (but if you must eat; then you shouldn't waste the rest either. However you also shouldn't waste people) < 1323670033 719589 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :What-if-everyone-did-what-you-did only works if everyone thinks sufficiently like you. < 1323670088 866575 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or if you want to set an example to others, I suppose, but I don't think anyone holds me in great esteem. < 1323670109 783434 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm not sure I do believe that voting is worthwhile, but that's another matter entirely.) < 1323670111 763109 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's reasonable. The actual reason I don't eat meat probably has to do with as much irrationality as your reason for doing it. < 1323670124 955606 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Right, but replace "voting" with something else. < 1323670149 919494 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, indeed. < 1323670151 759506 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There exist games of prisoner's dilemma where coöperating is worthwhile. < 1323670160 903082 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Voting is different. Vote or don't vote is really a matter of choice; only the vote ought to be affected in this way and how voting is supposed to work by the people voting < 1323670203 71593 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I do admit I generally value human life over non-human sentient life. But I'm inclined to say that this is irrationality derived from, well, being human. < 1323670216 173120 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I don't think that's really irrational. < 1323670224 773852 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, at least in any sense of the word "irrationality" worth considering. < 1323670234 200384 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it is good thing that some people are vegetarian and some people are not vegetarian. < 1323670237 247743 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any species that valued every other species just as much as itself would probably soon go extinct. < 1323670239 917728 :homo!~homo@ec2-50-112-122-72.us-west-2.compute.amazonaws.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1323670274 529668 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But also the position I'm coming from is more "killing humans and killing $other are both terrible" rather than "killing humans isn't any worse than killing $other", which is one of those tricky non-arithmetic distinctions. < 1323670287 124264 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I don't buy that. < 1323670303 613868 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Like you said, if you go by what's "good for evolution", then lots of things are bad. < 1323670365 139220 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I generally do not value human life over non-human sentient life; although it is sometimes useful to do so if they must be given unequal values; however, to kill some people or non-people, for self-defense, is still necessary, so the problem of value is not necessarily to solve. If you put in your will someone should eat you instead then maybe they should eat you instead. < 1323670383 191422 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :And use your blood to write the note of your death, instead of using normal ink. < 1323670401 608489 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :This conversation has suddenly taken an incredibly sinister tone. < 1323670437 232243 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :The difference in values also depends a lot on circumstances < 1323670457 478661 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: At any rate, I think my point was, vaguely: Some people say "doctors are weakening humanity by healing people who would otherwise die, thereby perpetuating bad genes! They shouldn't do that!", and that's a silly argument, of course, because some things are more valuable than resistance-to-disease-$FOO. < 1323670468 162550 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like intelligence-to-be-able-to-make-a-cure-for-$FOO. < 1323670479 643986 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Genetic-resistance, I mean.) < 1323670501 137132 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :One such circumstance (for the things I mentioned) might be the level of overpopulation/underpopulation. < 1323670546 433578 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I'm pretty sure my utilities work out that $PERSON-dying is much, much worse than resistance-to-disease-$FOO for almost all $PERSON and $FOO. < 1323670557 258184 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. < 1323670560 90009 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*than not having resistance-to- < 1323670568 664673 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But if you keep doing this, you eventually end up with a population of terribly-weak-but-intelligent humans, who require dozens of medications for staying alive. < 1323670574 5820 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Well, you use healing it can help it is really their choice. But it is good things in general. However, be careful in case it is impossible to do so or in case of the person does not want to be healed or would rather practise on themself, or write a report about the disease which is eventually dying. < 1323670603 798836 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So that's a bad thing. Therefore it makes sense to use all this intelligence that you've been sacrificing other things for to improve humanity by modifying genes directly, or something. < 1323670615 544863 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I don't buy that. Slippery slope arguments are tricky. < 1323670630 502282 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's far too many externalities and other noise involved to keep that from working out as simply as that. < 1323670639 590817 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: No! You should modify your own genes directly! But not other people. < 1323670651 393310 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :By the way, "eugenics" doesn't refer to genetic engineering for the purpose of improving humanity? < 1323670660 776157 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Sure, I'll be happy to just modify my own genes. < 1323670679 233270 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: But it seems what you're basically saying is "assume strict utilitarianism, ergo everyone drop everything and work on saving humanity". < 1323670709 910479 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I think you have an irrational bias towards any individual human rather than humanity as a whole. < 1323670711 766195 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: And I'm sure its supporters think of it like that. < 1323670722 851462 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I should modify my own genes, and they should modify their own genes, and so on. < 1323670728 938131 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Eugenics in practice is "you need a license from the government to breed, and they reject you if you're not $attributes enough". < 1323670751 252984 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Oh. Well, that's not what I meant. < 1323670764 327972 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And hearing "1000000 humans died" doesn't actually make you 1000000 times as sad as hearing "human $X" died -- it might even make you less sad. < 1323670768 865974 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You just mean genetic engineering. < 1323670772 527471 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yes, I'm aware of that particular bias. < 1323670788 922155 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But *intellectually*, I'm pretty sure it's about 1000000 times as bad. < 1323670805 809659 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: OK, genetic engineering, then. < 1323670810 419371 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't really expect my emotions to match my moral viewpoints in scenarios the human brain basically draws a blank on. < 1323670853 47901 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Right, genetic engineering for the benefit of humanity, certainly, go for it. I'm not sure how well it'll work out in the short term or whatever but it has noble goals. < 1323670855 408270 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: What do you think I care? Unless, it is someone I happen to know about (whether I know them personally or not). Since they are *already dead*, what do you think I should care about it afterward? They aren't dead only temporarily (probably) < 1323670868 179008 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But no, eugenics is just about controlling breeding. < 1323670878 99867 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But of course your moral viewpoints are pretty much "your emotions + some logic in a desperate attempt to get some self-consistency". :-) < 1323670905 534956 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: OK, so that was the wrong word to use. < 1323670921 862767 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Guilty. It doesn't bother me much since I realised that trying to justify my morals to myself was one of the least productive things I could possibly do. < 1323671020 217318 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is also probably better for mortals to eat immortals (regardless of human or not). Which means that immortality can also be one of the circumstances to consider????? < 1323671021 867681 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I do think humanity-getting-weaker-in-the-long-run is a potential problem. And if you start "interfering" with evolution's method of doing genetic engineering, it's a good idea to figure out some substitute yourself. < 1323671041 680444 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, talking about "interfering" with evolution is ludicrous. < 1323671047 693117 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whatever you do, that's evolution. < 1323671059 354367 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: You think it is a potential problem, or will it be balanced by overpopulation? < 1323671062 343162 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION doesn't quite agree with that. < 1323671074 408997 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :With which that? < 1323671082 87480 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Whatever you do, that's evolution." < 1323671117 705106 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why not? < 1323671122 748984 :homo!~homo@ec2-50-112-122-72.us-west-2.compute.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1323671125 264927 :homo!~homo@ec2-50-112-122-72.us-west-2.compute.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : a - a blessed +5 mace (weapon in hand) < 1323671128 299236 :homo!~homo@ec2-50-112-122-72.us-west-2.compute.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this any good? < 1323671129 507495 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This goes together with my view of "natural" as "whatever happens". :-) < 1323671134 611980 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4d0b7179.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus whatever it does with you < 1323671136 662280 :homo!~homo@ec2-50-112-122-72.us-west-2.compute.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm level 3 < 1323671139 75733 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :homo: You're warg. < 1323671139 355686 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :homo: Depends on what point of the game you're in. < 1323671141 924614 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: homo's warg. < 1323671146 819989 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :homo: Yes, pretty good. < 1323671152 918824 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :homo: wrong channel < 1323671157 846235 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, I don't even know what game you're playing. < 1323671160 674395 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Feeding a ban-evading troll there. < 1323671164 475435 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assumed it was NetHack. < 1323671169 888080 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is. < 1323671175 24273 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1323671193 363797 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Say the Big Friendly Singularity-God From The Sky comes down and makes us all immortal and stops us reproducing ever and we all live in a happy utopia until the universe's t variable rolls over; we'll have reached a desirable state (if you don't find the scenario desirable, mentally modify it appropriately), but there'll be no reproduction or selection or any of that happening. Would you say evolution < 1323671193 541102 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :is happening, a billion years down the line? < 1323671249 276217 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I'm using the wrong word again. < 1323671251 807103 :homo!~homo@ec2-50-112-122-72.us-west-2.compute.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that rhetorical? < 1323671261 224270 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps I should stick to "The Tao" instead of "evolution". :-) < 1323671281 352000 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :My meaning of the word in this context also includes things that happened before there was any life, for instance. < 1323671281 737463 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: In that case, we had better not eating or drinking anything ever. < 1323671299 488329 :homo!~homo@ec2-50-112-122-72.us-west-2.compute.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think elliott is being alegorical < 1323671360 827869 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Evolution of nature probably doesn't happen, but evolution of languages might still be able to happen. < 1323671373 667298 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: By the way, have you seen my pet? < 1323671387 213046 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: No. < 1323671431 833297 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: My reasoning is that a maximally-happy sentient being would not have any need for doing human things like feeling "emotions" other than happiness, or doing anything, or anything like that. < 1323671435 493276 :homo!~homo@ec2-50-112-122-72.us-west-2.compute.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can evolution cease without complete stasis? Isn't any type of change, even in thought, a form of evolution? < 1323671443 7493 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: "Your" reasoning. < 1323671443 184989 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you must treat sentience extensionally, right? < 1323671449 94486 :homo!~homo@ec2-50-112-122-72.us-west-2.compute.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :or were you speaking strictly from a geneticist pov? < 1323671452 572722 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Therefore: http://slbkbs.org/pet.txt < 1323671474 760072 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Reminds me of 1/0. < 1323671485 177014 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/0? < 1323671508 307006 :homo!~homo@ec2-50-112-122-72.us-west-2.compute.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :dont try it shachaf! the universe will implode! < 1323671535 762037 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: A comic, most of which is devoted to the characters arguing with the author and hashing out the (meta)physics of the universe. (It's better than it sounds, apart from a brief period where the author tries to argue for monotheism with the medium.) < 1323671538 339891 :homo!~homo@ec2-50-112-122-72.us-west-2.compute.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :dividing by zero is very dangerous. < 1323671538 517354 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Anyway, if you opened that in your browser, you'd better not close the tab. That would be akin to murder, and, worse, murder of a maximally-happy person. < 1323671547 65792 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, *was devoted, I suppose. < 1323671599 332348 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :homo: "Isn't any type of change, even in thought, a form of evolution?" Like, that is what I meant by my comments, such as evolution of languages and so on, possibly < 1323671614 416822 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I think what you're doing is assuming I'm a strict utilitarian and trying to prove me wrong, but it's really more that my moral reasoning is /broadly/ utilitarian with a bunch of fuzzing out to eliminate things I don't like :-) < 1323671655 304231 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: No, I consider that my actual pet, and my goal is to fill the universe with copies of it that will run for as long as possible. < 1323671663 578375 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Also, I'm not sure the happiness of the killed being matters. < 1323671669 368160 :homo!~homo@ec2-50-112-122-72.us-west-2.compute.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :T_T < 1323671674 765674 :homo!~homo@ec2-50-112-122-72.us-west-2.compute.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :You see here an uncursed kitten corpse named Samantha. < 1323671676 701495 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dividing by zero is not allowed; it is improper. < 1323671676 878989 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4d0b7179.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :evolution? what we can say for sure: there is movement.. heat < 1323671682 617149 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't necessarily buy that killing someone sad is way worse than killing someone happy. < 1323671694 246143 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4d0b7179.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :stardust < 1323671702 62350 :homo!~homo@ec2-50-112-122-72.us-west-2.compute.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :nethack killed a kitten < 1323671714 699232 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: What about killing someone who's sad and in pain etc. and wants to die? < 1323671737 101967 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: The keyword is "wants", isn't it? :) < 1323671743 453330 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I think if they want to die, even in future, then they should commit suicide, isn't it? < 1323671763 285492 :homo!~homo@ec2-50-112-122-72.us-west-2.compute.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if they don't want to die, but they don't want to live any more either. < 1323671765 637634 :ChanServ!ChanServ@services. MODE #esoteric +o :ais523 > 1323671765 849689 NAMES :#esoteric < 1323671779 192207 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 MODE #esoteric +b :*!*@ec2-50-112-122-72.us-west-2.compute.amazonaws.com > 1323671779 215151 NAMES :#esoteric < 1323671785 84840 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 KICK #esoteric homo :User terminated! < 1323671793 733625 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ban evasion is not good… < 1323671807 102409 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1323671809 144269 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 MODE #esoteric -o :ais523 > 1323671809 170898 NAMES :#esoteric < 1323671813 441447 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Given the choice of killing one of two people, one of whom is miserable and will continue to be miserable for the rest of their life, and the other one of whom is happy and will continue to be happy for the rest of their life, you wouldn't chooise to kill the unhappy one? < 1323671817 296281 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the union of the two Deathly bans is *!*@*2* < 1323671820 943794 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should ban that instead :-) < 1323671825 836265 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: too much chance of a false positive :) < 1323671828 238883 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Given that they'll be equally productive-to-society-and-whatever-else. < 1323671831 709550 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a feeling he'll be back < 1323671837 127493 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :me too < 1323671852 649944 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Foolproof solution: *!*@* < 1323671864 765643 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think you actually have to pay Amazon money to change your IP < 1323671885 652161 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I dunno, but I'm really sceptical that it's relevant to states that my inevitably-self-contradictory utility function will actually be called on. < 1323671893 132518 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because of the "all else equal" part. < 1323671899 584296 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, homo's mostly repeated what he said here in #nethack < 1323671904 998985 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's not massively offtopic there like it is here < 1323671911 170982 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hmm, word-for-word? < 1323671919 683904 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, same meaning but paraphrased < 1323671921 766531 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :he seems to like pasting things to other channels :) < 1323671921 993384 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1323671957 186468 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Well, you're just making it more complicated by not considering the all else to be equal. < 1323671957 993296 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :homo: In that case, let them to live unless you are required to eat them which will kill them too; or let them maybe they have some good idea to work other people might like that. But first be careful. If they are live then they can remain live or dead later (especially, if they change their mind later; please give time) but if dead it cannot be made back live again < 1323671969 163322 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's a fair thing to consider. < 1323671975 389480 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Well, the point is that I'm pretty sure being really miserable makes you less productive. < 1323671985 325858 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net QUIT :Client Quit < 1323672006 395362 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, turns out you can't kickban an IP < 1323672008 797666 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: But yes, it's overcomplicating things, but the point is that "I could try and answer this, but why bother, if (a) it'll never come up, and (b) I can get better results by not defining the result?". < 1323672011 995589 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ban works but the kick doens't < 1323672021 156566 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :/kick 255.255.255.255 < 1323672024 30852 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: No, there are some excellent tortured artists. < 1323672031 517808 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: also, *doesn't < 1323672034 686673 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Yes probably. It is why you can learn to be less miserable. < 1323672038 939793 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Well, yes. < 1323672052 23384 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not convinced they wouldn't be excellent if properly untortured. < 1323672061 842179 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do agree that in general taking these things to some ridiculous extreme doesn't help with reasoning much. < 1323672085 112765 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Oh, I think that, as far as actual practical humans go, it's sometimes necessary for producing a particular brand of excellent art. < 1323672109 620516 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :In other words, some people don't want to be live but don't want to be dead either, leave them live to be able to make a choice. That way you are not indecisive enough yet. < 1323672110 403307 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION suspects there would be a theorem to the effect of "everybody's utility function goes haywire on /some/ input", if we had better tools for reasoning formally about this stuff. < 1323672135 361875 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Yes, quite possibly. But what if making them really happy inspires them to create the Non-Sentient Tortured-Art-O-Matic 3000? :-) < 1323672156 307414 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this sentence is true, but you will never believe that it is true < 1323672159 240387 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: That is because sometimes you need to use logic involving things that you cannot figure out from logic < 1323672163 354635 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could also argue that as long as they'd still produce equally-good art of another variety if happy, it doesn't matter. < 1323672165 559407 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: argh < 1323672190 756765 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I tried that one on Agora once < 1323672198 53730 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Anyway, I assume you were deliberately invoking paperclipping with the universe-of-pets thing. < 1323672206 541751 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is Non-Sentient Tortured-Art-O-Matic 3000? < 1323672211 370541 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure what paperclipping is. < 1323672214 430267 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I probably was. < 1323672262 242388 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: It's what fashionable Less Wrong-dwelling hipsters call an AI that decides "oh, these human people have told me that smiles are really nice, and I'm omnipotent now; guess I'll fill the universe with 'em". < 1323672292 757437 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Philosophy in general becomes very deep and/or confusing and/or difficult so don't expect to understand it everything perfectly please < 1323672305 669396 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : What is Non-Sentient Tortured-Art-O-Matic 3000? < 1323672315 369043 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`log < 1323672316 158868 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: A very non-sentient machine with a button on it that makes it produce a brilliant work of tortured art. < 1323672347 94119 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :2011-09-06.txt:00:32:57: I still like to turn off monomorphism restriction though, since it allows making declarations by macro or Template Haskell or whatever else it is < 1323672364 185324 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4d0b7179.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :guess beeing immortal and almighty and knwoing source and destination of everything must be horrible boring < 1323672374 656035 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4d0b7179.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so one decide to mess things up < 1323672381 961994 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Anyway, the pet thing also reminds me of the mathematical universe hypothesis. < 1323672382 217193 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4d0b7179.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :spending not more than 3 lives < 1323672387 310803 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Well, if someone wants to make such a machine then you can do so, possibly only the plans for it, or a computer program to emulate such a machine < 1323672402 818178 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like how my ltency to 8.8.8.8 is about 2.2 seconds. < 1323672483 2201 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Which can be justified like "it's easy to imagine an algorithm to simulate some CA-esque world that doesn't have to actually simulate parts of the world you're not looking at; and if you're inside that world, you can't distinguish this from how things normally are, and so those other parts still /exist/; so there's no reason why you should have to be observing /any/ part of the world for it to < 1323672483 179417 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : exist; therefore all mathematically possible universes exist; therefore this universe exists". < 1323672494 226403 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which means that the text field I'm typing into also has a latency of ~2 seconds between keypress and effect. < 1323672507 342870 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I kind of see that as similar to "my pet doesn't have to do anything but be happy, so it doesn't actually have to do /anything/". < 1323672526 217721 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Your IRC client does a DNS query for every keypress? < 1323672529 191915 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Hey, that's *my* pet theory! < 1323672530 5280 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: why would you need to bounce keystrokes off a DNS server? < 1323672540 786666 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_universe_hypothesis < 1323672543 198307 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is mathematical existence. < 1323672544 745616 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Sorry to burst your bubble! < 1323672546 18392 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is latency to any external server; 8.8.8.8 was just an example. < 1323672557 49059 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I like it too, though. < 1323672582 372582 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: As a friend pointed out, it also makes universe simulation quite interesting: you're not actually /causing/ anything, just looking through a window. < 1323672602 638819 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which seems to imply that, e.g. spawning a billion simulated universes of eternal torture and pain for the sentient beings inside isn't really bad at all. < 1323672624 281911 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aha, a counterargument for Pascal's Mugging. < 1323672631 380315 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Am I a lesswrongian hipster now? < 1323672641 546562 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it is simply a point of view. It is the point of view of mathematical existence like anything in mathematics, rather than talking about physical existence. And maybe you can think of other existences too. < 1323672644 452727 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is getting too Less Wrong-dwelling hipster for my tastes now. :-( < 1323672653 764386 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yes. < 1323672664 727640 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I'm not sure how you define magic but if it is a thing, it is recursion < 1323672676 492841 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: WE CONJURE THE SPIRIT OF THE COMPUTER WITH OUR SPELLS < 1323672678 315707 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like Less Wrong. Is this bad? < 1323672684 30328 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm reading some of the sequences now < 1323672695 847066 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm contractually forbidden from answering questions involving the words "Sgeo" and "bad". < 1323672736 25516 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I'm not sure I agree with the counterargument though. Simulating awful things doesn't /feel/ intuitively bad, but I have a hard time believing that's not just because it's hard to relate to. < 1323672769 272590 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd also like to see some analyses of partial world simulation algorithms to see whether it actually works. < 1323672781 179487 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know Hashlife maintains different parts of the space at different times, so it seems plausible. < 1323672786 478969 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :In-universe, everything looks normal. < 1323672792 639176 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's not the same thing as never stepping them at all. < 1323672798 834075 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heyyyyyyyyyyy < 1323672806 522144 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've come to that conclusion philosophically myself. < 1323672807 763202 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course you could just arbitrarily extend the delay before you step each piece, but that doesn't necessarily work in the limit. < 1323672809 378017 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :(MUH) < 1323672826 428529 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I think people say this every time someone brings it up, anywhere :P < 1323672844 381192 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION thinks it's plausible even if that particular argument doesn't work. < 1323672856 562120 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Anyway, even if I buy that your pet is real, it's certainly not that graph. < 1323672865 40994 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I've closed the tab. < 1323672873 452815 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-( < 1323672879 741520 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least it was a painless death. < 1323672893 271336 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :*eh* < 1323672895 443900 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I was tempted to try and keep that tab open FOREVER, but I actually use this computer and it freezes a lot. < 1323672913 468635 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I was also tempted to cry and ask me why you gave me this horrible burden. < 1323672916 623446 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could go buy a new computer. < 1323672930 766532 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I guess that pet's life i worth less to you than $n. < 1323672931 635586 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The amusement isn't worth hundreds of pounds to me. < 1323672942 49475 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, £n. < 1323672959 761563 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What tab? < 1323672962 341856 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But seriously, I don't think you can fix the fact that that graph is not the pet; more generally, I don't think you can make a text file a lifeform. < 1323672967 107375 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not in that sense, at least. < 1323672973 736893 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: hmm, let me mention my idea of client-side web hosting again < 1323672979 739908 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: http://slbkbs.org/pet.txt (warning: possibly a maximally-happy sentient being) < 1323672981 428413 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the idea is that a site is hosted by all the computers currently visiting it < 1323672982 283047 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: What if it was a machine which beeped and showed a line for "happiness"? < 1323672996 862427 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and not centralised at all < 1323673000 661966 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the line was 100% *almost* all the time, but not all the time. < 1323673003 997511 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and, umm, I haven't figured out the details < 1323673006 380554 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Nah. The pet is the *abstract concept*. < 1323673012 37953 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: That just sounds like a DHT without caching or replication. < 1323673023 396462 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: You just thought of it, and made a machine to honour it. < 1323673032 294598 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: What if you have a human who's conscious and lying in a hospital bed and can't communicate? < 1323673034 156281 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-228-21.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: As far as I'm aware, elliott mostly has issues with the sorts of people who read Less Wrong and go "hurr i'm more rational than everyone now the fools". < 1323673034 857961 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: DHT? < 1323673037 698584 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is the human an abstract concept too? < 1323673039 742915 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I can't imagine that it didn't exist before you thought of it. < 1323673045 348655 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: distributed hash table < 1323673047 150308 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-228-21.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Certainly, there are interesting things on there. < 1323673050 641413 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: ah, I se < 1323673052 130089 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*see < 1323673061 168913 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I mean, on actual people's browsers who aren't involved with the site, other than reading it < 1323673064 330789 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: WHICH I'VE BEEN READING ABOUT >:) >:) >:) < 1323673064 975047 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes < 1323673067 941351 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what DHTs do < 1323673071 874521 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, sort of < 1323673073 962120 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That pet does not look maximally happy < 1323673076 188804 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-228-21.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And Eliezer's interesting when he's not having an ego the size of the solar system. < 1323673097 816226 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: "Some implementations (eg. Kad) do not have replication nor caching. The purpose of this is to remove old information quickly from the system. The node that is providing the file will periodically refresh the information onto the network (perform NODE-LOOKUP and STORE messages). When all of the nodes having the file go offline, nobody will be refreshing its values (sources and keywords) and the < 1323673098 32386 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : information will eventually disappear from the network." < 1323673102 327011 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh, distributed hash tables? < 1323673106 166074 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION likes distributed hash tables. < 1323673117 105422 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I only brought them up because I've been reading about them a bit today. :p < 1323673122 945555 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also because they seem vaguely relevant! < 1323673129 338149 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Imagine if HTTP used content-based addressing! < 1323673134 950931 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, < 1323673138 214383 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would render things like Akami obsolete. < 1323673141 381535 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : elliott: What if you have a human who's conscious and lying in a hospital bed and can't communicate? < 1323673141 878356 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-228-21.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Lemme guess, for @. < 1323673149 144344 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, I'll buy it, but it's probably not maximally-happy. < 1323673155 324446 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you even define maximally-happy? There's no limit to happiness. < 1323673163 128336 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's limited by the brain you're making happy. < 1323673167 100063 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: OK, he's not maximally happy. < 1323673170 921380 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And what's stopping you from extending the brain? < 1323673189 255461 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, /me isn't sure he buys DHTs in general, even though they *are* very neat. < 1323673189 760222 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: But by making him *happier*, and more consistent, he suddenly becomes an abstract concept? That's not fair. < 1323673212 698587 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: He's already in abstract concept! He doesn't actually exist. < 1323673213 848154 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*an < 1323673216 233867 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-228-21.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't call "maximal happiness" a desirable target, anyways. Down that road is naught but wireheads. < 1323673221 561571 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Fine, not maximally happy. Just "as happy as you've ever been in your life, all the time". < 1323673234 429212 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: That's shachaf's point, or some of it at least. < 1323673241 650690 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: That's not all that happy, but okay. < 1323673253 204317 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Fine, "as happy as *I've* ever been". < 1323673264 484835 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Are you a tortured artist or something? < 1323673267 303140 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That too. :p < 1323673279 570922 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-228-21.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I'd go with "angsty teenager", except I don't see much angst. < 1323673280 315918 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I'm just human, and I don't think I've ever been completely super massively mega happy or anything. < 1323673297 825951 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Really? < 1323673309 279246 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: You realise I'm not going by everyday standards, because that's sort of the point here? < 1323673316 141298 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not even that one time when you were happy? < 1323673317 852460 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem is that you can't really objectively compare happiness. < 1323673323 368771 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's brain-architecture-specific. < 1323673395 868887 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I'm wondering if there is a fundamental trade-off between being able to experience extremely good emotions, like energetic excitement, and being the sort of person who can weather emotional low periods. Over the course of my life I've self-modified to be much better at weathering low periods, but the frequency with which I feel energetic excitement seems to have gone down a lot." -- $PERSON_I_KNOW (who happens to be a lesswrong person) < 1323673448 521908 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION doesn't really see the relevance to what I said. < 1323673470 175845 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just reminded of that. < 1323673499 994676 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think "you can't really objectively compare happiness" is as fundamental a problem as you make it out to be. < 1323673528 874850 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's at least an intuitive partial ordering I can make between some humans that seems reasonably reliable to me. < 1323673533 958114 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the point is that you're saying "what if my super-happy human was HAPPY=1?". < 1323673563 36377 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I'm saying "which happy=1? They're human, if you go outside human parameters for happy then you're working with a different brain architecture entirely." < 1323673574 374065 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't *really* matter how happy he is all that much. < 1323673578 467478 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yes, you can quite arguably migrate "people" to different architectures. < 1323673582 489971 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The architecture in this case being an abstract concept. < 1323673611 29212 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Prediction: Everyone in the future agrees mind-uploading by writing an autobiography and committing suicide works; RIP humanity.) < 1323673611 835279 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: At least pet.txt is more concrete than @. < 1323673630 957097 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-( < 1323673635 669353 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : There's at least an intuitive partial ordering I can make between some humans that seems reasonably reliable to me. < 1323673637 450769 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Humans, sure. < 1323673637 628006 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-228-21.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: :P < 1323673643 74411 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm talking about between architecures. < 1323673666 965833 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, but I don't think it's as fundamental a problem as you make it out to be. < 1323673696 402256 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, why? < 1323673717 519034 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you're trying to say "just forget all that, let's say there's a being whose survival has infinite utility". < 1323673733 929175 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't have to be infinite, just positive. < 1323673742 185015 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, /that's/ easy. < 1323673746 509547 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go on then. < 1323673749 794243 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then you can make a trillion copies and say that, put together, they're more important than humanity. < 1323673784 272279 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :$VERY_BIG_NUMBER has a lot in common with \infty, practically speaking. < 1323673790 272355 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey! Isn't this just the Repugnant Conclusion in reverse! < 1323673792 159405 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*reverse? < 1323673873 845197 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hadn't come across that before. < 1323673884 810153 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, it doesn't have to be infinite, just very high. < 1323673890 573503 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you can make pet.txt closer to a human than it is. < 1323673908 714849 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem is that you're assuming utility(A lives and B lives) ~>= utility(A lives) + utility(B lives). < 1323673920 666386 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where ~>= is like approximately-equal, but for >=. < 1323673933 575254 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that's one problem, at least. < 1323673953 674462 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I'm still not sure where you're actually going with this. < 1323673955 930356 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example, let's say you make a happiness-measurer machine, which happens to have a front panel that looks exactly like pet.txt, and also a wire, and you attach the wire to a human lying in a hospital bed, and the front panel shows 100% constantly. < 1323673971 21969 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I'm not sure I was actually going anywhere... < 1323673972 121939 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1323673991 103820 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1323673997 574936 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I'm happy to continue ambling down this path, I suppose. < 1323674005 592804 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Okay. (Spoiler: I don't believe it.) < 1323674015 375147 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I consider myself the victim of this pointless epistemological discussion, by the way. < 1323674018 913875 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :What that's saying to me is, you're measuring an arbitrary value as 1. < 1323674023 496302 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And calling that value "happiness". < 1323674029 112629 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: How can you be sure it is working accurately? < 1323674033 734036 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which neatly fits in to my preconception of the definition of "happiness" depending on brain architectures. < 1323674045 871218 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: We've tested it on other humans and it always reports them accurately. < 1323674090 756270 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, hmm. < 1323674097 392037 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're saying it's actually measuring, not just a fancy pet.txt displaying machine. < 1323674101 510620 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1323674107 798077 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well then, what's the scale? < 1323674114 207733 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Happiness the human brain architecture can support? < 1323674145 196195 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This human's min before hospital bed - ...max... < 1323674145 474083 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't consider that different, on a universal scale, to a human that just happens to be pretty happy, so I have no problems buying that. < 1323674155 167536 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I would still think it is not working accurately. Either it broke, you did not connect it correctly, or it simply cannot measure that person's happiness accurately for whatever reason (people are different; so it is possible sometimes it won't work). I would think the readout would vary at least a little bit isn't it? < 1323674167 359991 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the human + machine is extensionally indistinguishable from just pet.txt! < 1323674192 414514 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: OK, it varies by a little bit. < 1323674207 486120 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or we used some drugs to maximize the human's happiness, I don't know. < 1323674234 922703 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then *maybe* it works accurately. I still don't know but with those other tests, the machine seems to be OK. < 1323674237 861726 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: The machine isn't important. < 1323674245 200837 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just evidence that the guy is really happy. < 1323674250 522443 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're telling me, imagine a happy dude. Okay, done. < 1323674268 322289 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :He'd still be happy without that machine (unless he likes it a lot, I guess). < 1323674301 470887 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott's humanity-bias strikes again. < 1323674311 76184 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Sigh. < 1323674317 435357 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I'm not biased towards humanity over sentient .txt files. < 1323674322 23417 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think pet.txt is sentient. < 1323674343 398928 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote I'm not biased towards humanity over sentient .txt files. < 1323674346 941719 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :760) I'm not biased towards humanity over sentient .txt files. < 1323674362 559826 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Yes, I guess it's not that. < 1323674366 653559 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes yes, very good. Can I just *tell* you why I don't think pet.txt is sentient? < 1323674385 4598 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you? < 1323674390 144403 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe so. < 1323674465 987371 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: By the way, a universe full of maximally-happy humans lying in hospital beds is also distasteful to me. < 1323674503 712318 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, you can imagine a really happy pet that does nothing but exist, happily, and sure, I buy that it /exists/ because I tend to believe in the mathematical universe hypothesis. But that's not the same thing as existing /in this universe/; I don't buy that you can be sentient without /computation/ (and before you propose it does some trivial computation: it has to do computation that leads to sentience, < 1323674503 889876 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : and I don't know what that is). And I don't care about other universes when considering moral issues, because they can have no effect on this one whatsoever, and we can have no effect on them. < 1323674539 697588 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: OK, I don't know what computation that leads to sentience is either. < 1323674544 588957 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(On the other hand, I've believed that a lookup table can be sentient at least once before, so I'm not sure how clear my "computation" view is... but in that case, it was an optimisation of a definitely-sentient computation.) < 1323674546 423664 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it seems we've come to an agreement. :-) < 1323674577 150318 :Ngevd!~b8537008@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1323674581 491831 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think "computation" is an easy thing to consider abstractly, as in something a big complicated computer does. < 1323674581 768607 :Ngevd!~b8537008@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello! < 1323674590 625698 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I think the answer is that pet.txt is not an optimisation of any sentient process. < 1323674605 451250 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems weird that the facts would reverse-engineer everything to decide whether it's sentient or not, though. < 1323674620 811951 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that the existence of an algorithm could change the sentience of something running on another algorithm. < 1323674626 831130 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But if you consider a human moving little tokens around to end up with a pile of red tokens in the left side, and sentience arising out of *that*, it seems less obvious. < 1323674628 673064 :Ngevd!~b8537008@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bye < 1323674630 183690 :Ngevd!~b8537008@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net QUIT :Client Quit < 1323674653 81813 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd. < 1323674653 519943 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: pet.txt is exactly an optimization of a sentient process! < 1323674655 170534 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was like 3 seconds. < 1323674662 637575 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Namely, our human+machine. < 1323674663 414781 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :It also depends how you have to exactly define sentience? < 1323674685 941119 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Wow, this suddenly sounds like the Chinese Room argument. < 1323674700 561024 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you just pull a Searle-Godwin? < 1323674724 461132 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: O, yes. I know how that works too. < 1323674733 44282 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: On /myself/. < 1323674737 179952 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I was saying *was* along the lines of the Chinese Room argument, of course. < 1323674738 380362 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm arguing the room can't understand Chinese. < 1323674745 837566 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I didn't realise it until now; why didn't I realise it until now? < 1323674759 973950 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION considers mission accomplished. < 1323674775 238219 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Is it accomplished if you've just confused me about my own beliefs? :/ < 1323674775 614878 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The mission was apparently to bamboozle elliott. < 1323674781 333376 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do *you* think about pet.txt, then? < 1323674804 474838 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whoa, whoa, I don't have opinions, I just argue with other people about theirs. < 1323674828 748448 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I "think" pet.txt is not sentient, of course. < 1323674833 906997 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUT I NEED COMFORTING OPINIONS!!!! < 1323674874 956935 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's an interesting example of something I *do* believe in taken to an extreme. I don't know "where to draw the line", if there is a line to draw. < 1323674880 349860 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay, I think I just won Agora again < 1323674910 338772 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: pfft, I heard about it seconds before you announced it < 1323674916 585827 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :#esoteric is behind the times. < 1323674920 867621 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, via email? < 1323674922 908324 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you think? < 1323674925 801911 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Don't worry -- humans, unlike pet.txt, have the "right causal powers to produce intensionality". < 1323674931 816991 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: nope, IRC < 1323674938 898372 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :who told you? < 1323674946 853160 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's Agora? < 1323674947 31174 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I hate you. < 1323674949 362525 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Other than a currency. < 1323674952 589371 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was talking about it in ##nomic on Slashnet, but you aren't there < 1323674954 521478 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: A nomic, 1993-present. < 1323674959 841280 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: don't you mean #nomic? < 1323674964 228638 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, yes < 1323674970 138163 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: anyway, comex < 1323674975 290290 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : oh hey, ais523 just won < 1323674975 467730 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : well, not really < 1323674975 467921 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : That immediately made me think ais523 discovered spontaneous human combustion and I was really confused for a second. :/ < 1323674975 468027 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : * Topic for #esoteric is: Zeroth to prove spontaneous human combustion wins | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ < 1323674975 792626 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : * Topic for #esoteric set by ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 at Sun Dec 11 20:11:10 2011 < 1323674980 441184 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, the slashnet and freenode channels have similar names and I get them muddled < 1323674998 849309 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I wonder if comex considers the win genuine? < 1323675009 886317 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: What channel is that in? < 1323675012 872731 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And what's a comex? < 1323675013 662173 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well, not really < 1323675019 954849 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the fun thing is, that the victory rule's designed to be pragmatic, but somehow manages to be platonic in this case < 1323675023 405107 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: It's the comex channel, and he's this guy who works for Apple. < 1323675044 316299 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I thought he more worked against Apple < 1323675049 101366 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, that comex. < 1323675053 527692 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :copumpkin's friend. < 1323675060 7377 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1323675065 475625 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :copumpkin: Wasn't he? < 1323675065 924660 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: he did, past tense < 1323675068 481541 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1323675072 417606 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :he is < 1323675076 19828 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :wasn't he in here for a while? < 1323675077 835126 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, copumpkin's bound to be recruited for a scam by comex and coppro at some point < 1323675080 752776 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :copumpkin: for years < 1323675084 512695 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's too famous for us now :'( < 1323675086 840307 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :comex is pretty legit < 1323675092 660538 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: coppro knows copumpkin? < 1323675093 761158 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they recruited a meatpuppet called costanza at one point just so the name of all the scamsters would start with co < 1323675099 503899 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1323675101 181959 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know who coppro is < 1323675109 924982 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :nomic player, #esoteric member < 1323675119 224750 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I mean beyond seeing the nick in here < 1323675124 723596 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1323675131 483202 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know coppro under a different name < 1323675137 814964 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :scshunt? < 1323675139 959468 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stop knowing everybody. < 1323675141 750701 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1323675145 517911 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: WHY ISN'T PET.TXT SENTIENT < 1323675156 189483 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: MURDERER < 1323675161 105684 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is listening to some nice bolero < 1323675189 130131 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :copumpkin: elliott is murderer < 1323675199 385321 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Anyway, I'm pretty sure I never thought killing wireheads was all that bad. < 1323675207 695771 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find them to be of dubious sentience. < 1323675208 527807 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am getting frustrated with agda < 1323675215 943274 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :copumpkin: Too limiting? < 1323675233 691731 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to construct iteratees that aren't shitty (unlike all the usual ones) and prove things about them < 1323675237 466078 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Oh, "wirehead", that's what it's called. < 1323675239 255857 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's remarkably difficult < 1323675245 832662 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: The term has only come up like ten times, dude. < 1323675250 536669 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :copumpkin: What do non-shitty iteratees look like? < 1323675258 891471 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: they're contravariant in the input type < 1323675265 997445 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :and don't have a crapload of special nasty cases < 1323675270 513478 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :copumpkin: Aren't all iteratees? < 1323675274 488439 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :not at all < 1323675288 468839 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: My /last counts one... < 1323675292 732918 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :the fact that they carry "leftover" data in the done case prevents them from being contravariant < 1323675293 976453 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-228-21.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Not a Niven fan I take it? < 1323675297 211358 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: 1 ~ 10 < 1323675300 585709 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :copumpkin: Oh, right. < 1323675303 503651 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :the leftover data is also messy, cause you can lie in it < 1323675308 267396 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :and stick shit that was never input into it < 1323675311 645604 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rearrange input < 1323675318 699178 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a huge mess < 1323675323 781038 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, enumeratees are fucked up < 1323675326 622393 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :What should it be called a transformer f (x, f x) and what should call f (f () -> x) do they have any names? < 1323675330 837122 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Haven't read anything by him. < 1323675341 985853 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-228-21.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Shame, he's quite enjoyable. < 1323675349 455884 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :copumpkin: My favourite flavour of iteratees is iterIO, which doesn't have the enumeratee/enumerator/blah blah blah distinction. < 1323675355 282965 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yes, the leftover stuff is ugly. < 1323675357 559102 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Anyway, you only consider people to be worthwhile if they're miserable occasionally, eh? < 1323675363 519759 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-228-21.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presuming you like hard sci-fi, of course. < 1323675369 774702 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :copumpkin: But "what do they look like" was a more concrete question than you're interpreting it as :) < 1323675375 116765 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: yeah, some of us are trying to come up with something that actually breaks out of the shitty mold oleg constructed < 1323675382 160457 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I have _A Mote in God's Eye_ somewhere in this room. < 1323675386 912000 :comex!~comex@ec2-50-19-141-233.compute-1.amazonaws.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1323675389 61183 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :copumpkin: I think saying that is illegal in at least 40 FP states. < 1323675389 951499 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: they all feel _almost_ elegant < 1323675398 476869 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :comex: Sorry, we've moved on from talking about you. < 1323675402 596959 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there's something shitty about each of them < 1323675404 801288 :comex!~comex@ec2-50-19-141-233.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :baw < 1323675410 181292 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it all stems from the shitty underlying idea < 1323675415 487488 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-228-21.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I highly recommend that one in particular. < 1323675420 814472 :comex!~comex@ec2-50-19-141-233.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the shitty underlying idea? < 1323675422 103624 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I don't think for(;;){happy();} is sentient; its happiness level doesn't matter much. < 1323675423 592517 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is not fundamentally shitty, but its execution is < 1323675425 680966 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :comex: iteratees < 1323675479 388997 :comex!~comex@ec2-50-19-141-233.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1323675479 930476 :comex!~comex@ec2-50-19-141-233.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://john-millikin.com/articles/understanding-iteratees/ < 1323675481 10386 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: But, in theory, that's what a human is trying to do. At what point does it stop being sentient? < 1323675485 868585 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :comex: those are the ones < 1323675497 635468 :comex!~comex@ec2-50-19-141-233.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :they look pretty similar to python's iterat_ors_ < 1323675510 809315 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :an iteratee is a consumer of data < 1323675516 369919 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everything looks like $trivial_imperative_concept to a trivial imperative programmer OHHH < 1323675517 570120 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUUUUUURN < 1323675520 794686 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ahem. < 1323675525 400250 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION slaps elliott  < 1323675526 642827 :comex!~comex@ec2-50-19-141-233.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :iterators can consume data < 1323675527 967668 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I don't really think that's what a human is trying to do. < 1323675537 554175 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :comex: I mean, it's all they do < 1323675547 309508 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Maximize its utility function? < 1323675562 796338 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION will take care of that by redefining "trying". < 1323675570 567576 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Utility functions like that are broken, IMO. < 1323675578 869339 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're probably right. < 1323675584 282706 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know how to un-broken them, although I'm sure some aforementioned hipsters will tell you they know how. < 1323675587 394923 :comex!~comex@ec2-50-19-141-233.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the difference is that iterators must receive all the data at once < 1323675590 50016 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :comex: I thought python iterators provided an interface for asking for data < 1323675601 456039 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: By the way, $SOMETHING_ABOUT_@. < 1323675603 710596 :comex!~comex@ec2-50-19-141-233.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc it's something = (yield) < 1323675608 472488 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Cry. < 1323675609 232044 :comex!~comex@ec2-50-19-141-233.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then iterator.send(data) < 1323675625 345984 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's that opposite of consuming data. < 1323675627 259899 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: oh no, the eventual log search/replace may well end up putting a space in that keyword, if @ ends up expanding to a multi-word name < 1323675628 180149 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :comex: so if I have an iterator called x, I can ask x for its next data item < 1323675643 268579 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it'll be too smart for that! < 1323675651 598923 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: @ will just end up being called ellioxx or something. < 1323675652 530034 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, the expansion? < 1323675654 177184 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :comex: an iteratee produces exactly one value and accepts data < 1323675657 689055 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it'll be a UNIX just like everything else. < 1323675668 166466 :comex!~comex@ec2-50-19-141-233.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, only one value < 1323675673 540659 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: It won't have a space in the name. < 1323675679 445788 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :comex: yeah, then oleg went insane and started creating portmanteaus < 1323675684 714653 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: wow, decided that already? < 1323675685 782489 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-228-21.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt elliott could make himself do another UNIX. < 1323675686 788527 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :copumpkin: comex: And it doesn't send that value back to the data source. < 1323675687 322787 :comex!~comex@ec2-50-19-141-233.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, fair enough < 1323675691 678673 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :like foo.send() does. < 1323675700 452950 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Microsoft Windows" and "Mac OS X" both do < 1323675702 196323 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :comex: so then he came up with an enumerator that corresponds roughly to the python iterator, and then he went bonkers and made an enumeratee < 1323675705 56593 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Ehux.) < 1323675711 531494 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it's just "Windows" < 1323675712 535646 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Microsoft Windows" and "Mac OS X" both do < 1323675715 257222 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :portmanteaux? < 1323675715 763727 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1323675720 51993 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-228-21.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd be a little bit surprised if he did what I consider to be a "UNIX-family" OS (examples of this include Windows and Plan 9). < 1323675721 126693 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*(It's not "Windows" because that's too generic to be trademarked) < 1323675723 176109 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :that feels like it should be the correct plural < 1323675730 727945 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b7/Windows_logo.svg < 1323675734 24549 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(note: it is very easy to typo a line as a copy of a previous line in Konversation) < 1323675744 675840 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't care what the trademark is. < 1323675745 453069 :comex!~comex@ec2-50-19-141-233.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is also reminiscent of a type of unix program < 1323675755 79617 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Microsoft® Windows® XP® Professional® Edition® < 1323675758 522160 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :comex: a unix program has the same input and output types < 1323675762 815491 :comex!~comex@ec2-50-19-141-233.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that accepts data via a pipe (reading input data as it is provided), then finally spits out a result < 1323675764 444142 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's enumeratees that are like pipelines < 1323675765 931476 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :comex: yeah, basically I'd have called them consumer, producer, and transducer < 1323675773 182566 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know how yield and that stuff works in Python and JavaScript. < 1323675778 658548 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :comex: although those types aren't fundamentally different < 1323675781 542148 :comex!~comex@ec2-50-19-141-233.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :aw, I don't know anything about transducers except their applications on Solaria < 1323675791 654297 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :copumpkin: (In iterIO, there's just consumers and transducers.) < 1323675804 906640 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: HOW CAN I PRODUCE SHIT!!! < 1323675807 213638 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Python's iterators always make me sad because they're not real coroutines. < 1323675810 139276 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :I AM A PRODUCER, NOT A CONSUMER < 1323675819 616494 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :copumpkin: Producers are special-cases with input type () that are fed EOF. (I think it should be input type Void.) < 1323675821 494697 :comex!~comex@ec2-50-19-141-233.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: how so? < 1323675826 933410 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: ick < 1323675836 125709 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :copumpkin: Well, I don't see what's wrong with taking Void as input. < 1323675840 424417 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :They must receive EOF. < 1323675843 453396 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it all works out. < 1323675846 832090 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Starts to feel like arrows, though. < 1323675850 565912 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: "Oracle Solaris" has a space in the name now too. < 1323675855 937548 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what I want it to feel like < 1323675859 288205 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :comex: How which? < 1323675865 710374 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :copumpkin: That's a shame. < 1323675867 46030 :comex!~comex@ec2-50-19-141-233.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: iterators not being coroutines < 1323675904 244848 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let me see. < 1323675909 150512 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only a top-level thing can yield. < 1323675946 548395 :comex!~comex@ec2-50-19-141-233.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe python 3 has a "yield from" keyword that lets you pass that down < 1323675961 130637 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Python's solution to everything is to add more keyword plasters. < 1323675973 836845 :comex!~comex@ec2-50-19-141-233.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, you could always just do "for i in some_subiterator(): yield i", or some more fanciness to support .send < 1323675975 453694 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pass what down? < 1323675976 413672 :comex!~comex@ec2-50-19-141-233.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course it's a horrible hack < 1323675984 750370 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Like Python.) < 1323675995 380007 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, you still need to mark it explicitly in that case. < 1323676007 747383 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Just Greenspun it and make every function work like that. < 1323676010 730826 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though I suppose that as a Haskell person maybe I shouldn't complain about that... < 1323676027 157673 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I intend, without objection, to transfer rule 2166 from the Lost and Found department to myself. < 1323676035 517278 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should really reread the ruleset more often < 1323676042 408701 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that isn't a scam, I'm just amused that it's possible < 1323676054 227736 :comex!~comex@ec2-50-19-141-233.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it is possible. < 1323676062 349280 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like "for i in some_subiterator(): yield i" I suppose that the barrier monads I made up, you can use the monadic join operation to do something like that. < 1323676063 944687 :comex!~comex@ec2-50-19-141-233.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I do like that kind of thing < 1323676067 289044 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :comex: rules meet the definition of assets < 1323676074 703418 :comex!~comex@ec2-50-19-141-233.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are not "defined as such" < 1323676077 353834 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :with rule 2141 as the backing document < 1323676084 144977 :comex!~comex@ec2-50-19-141-233.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe I made it possible (or protoed making it possible) at some point in B < 1323676084 466032 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, missed that bit < 1323676096 653785 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they meet the /rest/ of the definition of assets, though < 1323676100 771464 :comex!~comex@ec2-50-19-141-233.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :or it was possible and I protoed something similar < 1323676100 960943 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has no idea about this Agora thing and isn't sure he wants to have one. < 1323676108 610601 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and rule ownership doesn't do anything, so nothing secures the transfer < 1323676111 844925 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: http://agoranomic.org/ < 1323676142 679117 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tierced palewise sable, argent, and sable, charged with a quill and an axe in saltire, proper, and in the chief a capital letter A, gules. < 1323676150 413925 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I don't care if we repealed the Arms, I like them.) < 1323676159 645019 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're still around, they just aren't a rule < 1323676165 133761 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Was that, that oerjan posted the horoscope for the first speaker's message? < 1323676169 229086 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: yes < 1323676188 719251 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I believe Agora is the longest-running nomic ever. < 1323676205 897339 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: At least, that people actually play. I'm sure there's a billion pet.txt nomics humming along happily in the background. < 1323676206 946652 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: FRC? < 1323676213 781657 :comex!~comex@ec2-50-19-141-233.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: reminds me of whoever joined the Bayes contract, because we didn't explicitly forbid it < 1323676219 492148 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, it's only very slightly a nomic < 1323676222 729317 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :comex: heh, I remember that < 1323676226 617389 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Canada is hundreds of years old. < 1323676233 924129 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: pet.txt's H(t) just went down to 99% briefly from being used as an adjective. < 1323676235 641145 :comex!~comex@ec2-50-19-141-233.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :or when you terminated my mousetrap as obsolete < 1323676242 804995 :comex!~comex@ec2-50-19-141-233.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: not really < 1323676252 705322 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Good! It's not a wirehead now, so I value its rights. < 1323676258 633002 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :comex: It's older than FRC, at least. < 1323676264 480168 :comex!~comex@ec2-50-19-141-233.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :"This widening autonomy was highlighted by the Statute of Westminster 1931 and culminated in the Canada Act 1982, which severed the vestiges of legal dependence on the British parliament." < 1323676265 507231 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neither's much of a nomic. < 1323676278 57373 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :comex: I don't think that Canada started existing in 1982. < 1323676289 211869 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't implement threads reasonably on top of Python's yield, can you? < 1323676294 433404 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And 80 years is hundreds. < 1323676304 728119 :comex!~comex@ec2-50-19-141-233.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: not unless you're insane < 1323676309 35808 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Sure, you just have to greenspun it by turning everything into an iterator. < 1323676318 639953 :comex!~comex@ec2-50-19-141-233.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I like Stackless < 1323676327 587283 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Which is the Haskell solution to it, of course. < 1323676338 458582 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: FSVO Haskell solution. < 1323676344 394591 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: With s/iterator/monadic function/ < 1323676349 442798 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Anyway, Agora is fun, you should play. < 1323676360 667848 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apart from when it's boring, which it looks like it's stopping being. < 1323676368 192409 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it's coming out of a slump < 1323676381 139252 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Just like B. < 1323676396 271294 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: B is not currently showing signs of coming out of a slump < 1323676405 285296 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yes it is, that's a universal law. < 1323676410 190865 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: What about monadic function? < 1323676420 467527 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: nope; that universal law turned out to never have been enacted after all < 1323676426 855727 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ;_; < 1323676438 996537 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Well, you have to write mapM, not just map. < 1323676454 157453 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Similarly you have to write map_yield(), not just map(). < 1323676473 773947 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Coroutines are good fun to implement threads on top of. < 1323676499 374916 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: For what purpose do you need to write mapM and map_yield() and whatever? I do not understand completely < 1323676525 888901 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Are you asking why mapM exists in Haskell, in addition to map? < 1323676553 332850 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mapM contains more strictly more information than map, by the way; someone should do a thing where non-monadic versions of functions are autoderived from monadic versions. < 1323676573 682009 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: No, I am asking for the reason to do it in your circumstances. < 1323676602 360202 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what map_yield() is. < 1323676606 984447 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you have the function map() in Python, which calls a function. And then you need an additional one that "yields from" the function. < 1323676607 826191 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: It's almost as if someone already did that and you showed #haskell and #esoteric. < 1323676629 343956 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem with mapM is that it's overspecified; evaluation order, etc. < 1323676641 977949 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you mean "yields from" the function? < 1323676661 715763 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: What? < 1323676665 404839 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Who did that? < 1323676673 498490 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, that language you linked? < 1323676680 226214 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, monad-embed? < 1323676685 790268 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That doesn't really do what I want. < 1323676703 799874 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Evaluation order isn't specified if you run it in Identity, is it? < 1323676707 386986 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just execution order. < 1323676732 314415 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style agora < 1323676732 491656 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: agora (a large selection of Agora rules, both current and historical) < 1323676740 470161 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: you were involved in agora once, weren't you? < 1323676740 784279 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: whenever a cfj to have been sent to the < 1323676755 591014 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: The point is that you can "peek into" mapM and find out what evaluation order it's using. < 1323676769 110019 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: So it's not as opaque as map, and so it's not as nicely-defined. < 1323676782 721583 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Execution order, not evaluation order? < 1323676786 579130 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, yes. < 1323676790 811760 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yes. < 1323676804 149444 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But if you write mapM and then extract map from it, you can't "peek into" the extracted map. < 1323676818 681884 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the monadic join with barrier monads allows to run a function that can yield and then it yield the same one itself < 1323676821 14127 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, sure. < 1323676832 377530 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Given that people write both map and mapM *anyway*, you might as well have that done automatically for you so you have to write half as much code. < 1323676846 517600 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bet you could do it with a trivial bit of TH. < 1323676859 361355 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it's *so* trivial. < 1323676860 890691 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, maybe. < 1323676864 379080 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ofc CFJ 2623 was awesome < 1323676873 98050 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :At any rate, writing *M involves more thought than writing *. < 1323676874 189036 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Sure it is, wherever Identity occurs in argument position, compose Identity. < 1323676879 38390 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whenever it occurs in result position, compose runIdentity. < 1323676885 990311 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*it is; < 1323676886 616310 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There might be multiple ways to make the same function monadic. < 1323676902 472303 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Oh, I thought you meant figure out the type of foo from the type of fooM. < 1323676913 967493 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That *does* do that. < 1323676921 720206 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :As long as it's fully polymorphic on a single m. < 1323676951 801592 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Instantiate m = Identity498573495345, turn (Identity498573495345 a) into a for all a. < 1323676955 687757 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :With the number so that it doesn't clash with < 1323676962 457214 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fooM :: (Monad m) => Identity a -> m a < 1323676963 495466 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :or similar. < 1323676972 285118 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I suppose. < 1323676976 771838 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :...i.e. just turn (m a) into a everywhere. :p < 1323676986 710003 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, monad-embed is different. It doesn't really let you specify evaluation order at all. < 1323676999 67650 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't "flip" let you. < 1323677002 985669 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :f x y vs. flip f x y. < 1323677015 579972 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yes, it's the reverse; I misread your statement. < 1323677032 769249 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Right, it does. < 1323677069 652904 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I understand correctly, "f x y" "executes" f, then x, then (f x), then y, the (f x y). < 1323677083 370714 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1323677101 483009 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where "executes" means, kind of, "if it has a monadic type, execute it, and then shadow the result with the original name for the remainder of this sentence". :-) < 1323677115 309246 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It always has a monadic type in monad-embed, no? < 1323677131 561567 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I guess? < 1323677134 785821 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION doesn't recall. < 1323677141 606226 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Flavours" and all. < 1323677141 783736 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: OK, now do one that autoderives monads from their monad transformers. :-) < 1323677148 693020 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: = FooT Identity < 1323677150 672567 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess mtl does that anyway these days, except manually. < 1323677155 18258 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1323677164 581460 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's how you should do it anyway. < 1323677175 616640 :comex!~comex@ec2-50-19-141-233.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha, I forgot about 2623! < 1323677217 426969 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Actually, I don't like monad transformers at all. < 1323677222 998237 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know. < 1323677228 491733 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've said this before? < 1323677232 646821 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Repeatedly. < 1323677238 399341 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :"if it has a monadic type, execute it...." Execute what? < 1323677243 811893 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It. < 1323677252 848698 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Execute f? < 1323677271 841411 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1323677275 118863 :comex!~comex@ec2-50-19-141-233.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hey, http://agora-notary.wikidot.com/ still exists < 1323677287 976590 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If f :: m (a -> b -> c). < 1323677293 295010 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which, as elliott pointed out, it always is. < 1323677332 99102 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :comex: indeed < 1323677337 398192 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's still a useful historical refernce < 1323677338 995002 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*reference < 1323677361 750439 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :O, that is what f is. How exactly can you "execute it"? As far as I know you can use <*> with such a type? < 1323677377 142256 :comex!~comex@ec2-50-19-141-233.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : On this the whole head appeared, < 1323677377 319511 :comex!~comex@ec2-50-19-141-233.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then turned to the table to measure herself by it, and on it < 1323677377 497132 :comex!~comex@ec2-50-19-141-233.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :except a tiny golden key, and Alice's elbow was pressed so closely < 1323677377 497289 :comex!~comex@ec2-50-19-141-233.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :against her foot, that there was no more to come, so she set the < 1323677377 497377 :comex!~comex@ec2-50-19-141-233.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :little door was shut again, and put it to be assigned as judge of < 1323677378 26553 :comex!~comex@ec2-50-19-141-233.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the posting of the CotC. < 1323677407 682932 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :comex: remember the equity case? < 1323677409 378532 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell is a functional programming, you cannot execute anything? < 1323677428 451125 :comex!~comex@ec2-50-19-141-233.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :other than 2623? < 1323677436 954077 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1323677438 681704 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Sure you can. < 1323677452 659310 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I referenced the fungot equity case already < 1323677453 5917 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: land bureau. if a registered player, or < 1323677456 213955 :comex!~comex@ec2-50-19-141-233.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :did that amendment thingy ever get used? < 1323677464 341578 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: fungot only judged it, right? < 1323677464 519510 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: ( a) an office, with the < 1323677476 865929 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it was about a contract fungot created < 1323677477 134852 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: a rebellious player) are a class d frankenstein monster fails to comply with the player < 1323677479 65722 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc! < 1323677480 652283 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :not fungot < 1323677480 829637 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@ohai kmc < 1323677481 7207 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: a blot change is made only to assessor. the < 1323677481 184945 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :welcome to #esoteric, kmc! < 1323677481 516970 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :or was it < 1323677484 425109 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was fungot < 1323677484 668518 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: a criminal case has a budget containing the maximum deck diversity, which have been judged undecided. the herald < 1323677491 702967 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: nah, fungot is all lowercase < 1323677491 881410 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: e may be < 1323677493 227826 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, maybe Bayes < 1323677494 109789 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was an online markov generator < 1323677508 816558 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot provided arguments towards the judgement, but they made the judge's head hurt < 1323677509 2109 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: speaker-elect. if the speaker publicly announces within a week, that < 1323677510 9602 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :feeded the ruleset + alice in wonderland excerpt + I forget < 1323677554 251377 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: By the way: ? < 1323677574 321212 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I read it via http://www.undefined.net/1/0/. It's less crufty. < 1323677586 416879 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's "only" 1000 comics, to the dot. < 1323677603 592727 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: *Now* you tell me. < 1323677635 588105 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also it takes ages to actually get into the interesting stuff rather than just messing around, but it doesn't make any sense if you skip there. < 1323677636 703828 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :LIFE IS HARD. < 1323677803 299974 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought it was "life is tough". < 1323677827 339580 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's that too. < 1323677833 178968 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 JOIN :#esoteric < 1323677994 976589 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I'll have you know that pretty much my entire time-to-be-productive got wasted on that silly discussion, by the way. < 1323677999 182026 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you have idea what the types I have specified would be called? < 1323678001 28141 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope you're pleased with yourself. < 1323678054 911171 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Oops! Too bad! Sorry. < 1323678064 143120 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: ? < 1323678082 774018 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I was not objecting to anythig you said. < 1323678087 202403 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has long ceased doing that. < 1323678088 49347 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1323678093 788027 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: What are the types that you specified? < 1323678103 363483 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :f (x, f x) < 1323678106 651434 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :f (f () -> x) < 1323678124 273634 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 JOIN :#esoteric < 1323678149 520629 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Yay! < 1323678160 765757 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Where f is a functor and x is a return type of a functor) < 1323678188 959353 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: You mean an argument to a functor? < 1323678195 911271 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Yes < 1323678196 367800 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, no. It's just a type. < 1323678204 546482 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I have no idea. < 1323678295 292195 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I put it on paper already. But I cannot put it into the computer very well withouts their name? < 1323678388 141682 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :FsdfkfsdT and QqqqkdkT. < 1323678421 544591 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott has a point. < 1323678542 993887 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1323678598 248200 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 JOIN :#esoteric < 1323678640 901601 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, and then I could change their name later if there is better name, I suppose. Because these names seem very worse. < 1323678719 855040 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1323678765 395378 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :copumpkin: You should do it in Epigram 2 instead. < 1323678782 797828 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The perfect iteratees for the perfect language! < 1323679004 643403 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Epigram 2 is a perfect language? < 1323679011 37145 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I think we've found what @lang should be based on < 1323679041 497245 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's similarly vapourous. < 1323679051 935799 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I didn't realise < 1323679060 512160 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perl 6 is in an interesting state < 1323679069 503667 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not really solidified yet, but it's not vaporware either < 1323679074 430137 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :liquidware? < 1323679077 246119 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh, base @lang on Perl 6! < 1323679088 98002 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1323679099 260410 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :By the way, is "@lang" its own macro? < 1323679123 428028 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or will the language be called "@" ++ "lang" < 1323679124 616382 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I'm not sure < 1323679141 535013 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the language might even be called "@lang"; it's a good name for a language even if "@" is a bad name for an OS < 1323679149 157532 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the quotes block macro expansion, right?) < 1323679231 110007 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, they do? < 1323679286 199835 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course not < 1323679295 469416 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the text inside quotes is English < 1323679301 709498 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and we're replacing @ with the name, in English < 1323679312 649663 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :try making "@" be in Spanish, instead < 1323679334 162102 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :@ < 1323679393 686518 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: actually, calling Epigram 2 "similarly vapourous" to @ is unfair to it; it's produced thousands of lines of code and more than a few papers < 1323679400 773097 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is thousands and more than a few more than I have < 1323679447 275217 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I want to write a really fast grep for some reason < 1323679521 209519 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you make it O(1/log n)? < 1323679730 737043 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: O(0) < 1323680037 15996 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, does GNU grep even search in parallel? < 1323680038 333378 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suspect not < 1323680051 273640 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that seems like a massive flaw < 1323680069 614260 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Why? < 1323680087 642643 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Well, it's a fairly obvious large speedup. < 1323680093 430332 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it? < 1323680102 233921 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :By fairly I mean completely. < 1323680112 619903 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: The segments of the file can be scanned completely independently, so... yes? < 1323680118 46674 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It scales linearly. < 1323680119 40375 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, grep is presumably I/O-bound. < 1323680138 603489 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Not in /tmp, it's not :) < 1323680144 690189 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's not that obvious in general. < 1323680150 363507 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, sure, if you're reading from a ramdisk. < 1323680160 588534 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although it might be syscall-overhead-bound then. :/ < 1323680167 847567 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is where I mumble @. < 1323680172 419506 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe. But as a default "optimization" it seems like it might have significant overhead. < 1323680185 582283 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Anyway, I doubt grep is always IO-bound. < 1323680187 764727 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or perhaps even usually. < 1323680205 376741 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :This was sparked by me reading that GNU grep used to be two thousand times slower in UTF-8 locales. < 1323680221 34472 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even post-fix, it's 2-4x slower. < 1323680230 54353 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That seems rather massive for something that /should/ be IO-bound. < 1323680240 452210 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I read in a blog post that gnu grep was really really fast! < 1323680246 906384 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I suppose it depends. < 1323680254 832732 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Night < 1323680290 445368 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: They were probably not benchmarking it on an I/O-bound case. < 1323680298 72399 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: I read that one too! < 1323680300 525352 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Um? < 1323680303 533175 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, I can't find that post anymore, but didn't they say it was doing something like ~30KB/s? < 1323680305 159022 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: It was just a large gob of data. < 1323680311 844992 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. But then also http://rg03.wordpress.com/2009/09/09/gnu-grep-is-slow-on-utf-8/. < 1323680320 39582 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :/usr/share/dict/words is not IO bound. < 1323680324 35693 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that big file they tested should be. < 1323680336 850170 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"done" is not a complicated regular expression. < 1323680342 901762 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://dtrace.org/blogs/brendan/2011/12/08/2000x-performance-win/ is the link. < 1323680344 240340 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :the possible speed should depend a lot on whether it can do a simple substring search using a good algorithm or if it has to do regexp matching, and if so how complex the regexp is < 1323680363 504181 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: it doesn't do the former unless you call it fgrep < 1323680371 693663 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but no regexp engine should find "done" tough :) < 1323680382 376029 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Well, the file was probably in the cache when they tested it. < 1323680410 962522 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Well, things are in cache a lot of the time. < 1323680416 886587 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :True. < 1323680417 218344 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, some things that KMP and smart algorithms do should be generalizable to regexps < 1323680437 740377 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Also, I'd be surprised if GNU grep is the fastest it could possibly be with its IO. < 1323680442 507653 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although Unix limits it in that area. < 1323680450 289348 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Yeah, yeah, grep has done that for decades :P < 1323680473 252626 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Well, fgrep at least. < 1323680480 574 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :how can this be? the creators of grep were at least as clever as me!? < 1323680512 242170 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :fgrep? but I want a normal grep to do the best thing possible with the regexp I give it < 1323680523 415534 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The best possible thing! < 1323680536 148660 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should just use an Oracle. < 1323680542 478590 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :grep (C) Larry Ellison < 1323680549 650901 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :error: this is not the string you're looking for < 1323680695 475313 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Ideally, the kernel would grep for us. < 1323680698 791676 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would avoid all the IO overhead. < 1323680705 483452 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, the IO overhead that isn't the actual IO, that is. < 1323680714 110904 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ideally, we would already know the answer. < 1323680726 997836 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deep. < 1323680731 983200 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neutrinos, man. < 1323680734 952524 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, at least I want a single command to be able to tell when I give it a simple string that isn't a regexp < 1323680737 658223 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :or to use a regexp engine that is smart enough to make a simple regexp as efficient as a string search < 1323680826 334133 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: You obviously want it to be smarter than just "pass it off to fgrep if I can"; consider "foo.bar". < 1323680846 444592 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can do "foo" and "bar" as fixed-string matches. < 1323680870 119283 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact, do them both at the same time, independently; when two hit at the right position offsets, you're done. < 1323680919 209695 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Every searching program should use only Rabin-Karp. < 1323680975 857990 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: More like: Rabin-Crap. < 1323681021 407983 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, you showed that substring search algorithm who's who! < 1323681284 265434 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1323681804 957041 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey QUIT :Quit: The Other Game < 1323682026 851482 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: hello < 1323682734 146625 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, updoot < 1323682740 932517 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should be sleeping, not updooting you < 1323683447 873831 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: So what's The Best DHT??? < 1323683472 954302 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Are we talking about drugs? < 1323683477 473808 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obviously. < 1323683497 467801 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, no, I'm thinking of DMT. < 1323683503 671069 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :SAME THING. < 1323683509 41094 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I've never used any DHT. < 1323683511 251664 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, maybe I have. < 1323683517 59736 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUT YOU SAID YOU LIKED THEM ;__; < 1323683517 612566 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe git counts! < 1323683521 994054 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pet.txt is so sad right now. < 1323683523 490928 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Don't you like them? < 1323683531 402272 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, maybe. < 1323683539 790531 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like them in principle. < 1323683545 729418 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION does everything in principle. < 1323683551 166663 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Practice is for other people. < 1323683565 691579 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :My problem with them is that distribution of data is basically unrelated to who /cares/ about that content. < 1323683574 90541 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you mean? < 1323683596 367755 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION would like to add that he knows pretty much nothing about DHTs. < 1323683605 62374 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :As in, I have to store a bunch of data I don't care about, in return for being able to store data I care about somewhere else, maybe somewhere slow or unreliable. < 1323683627 563343 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, you can mitigate that, but on the other hand, it seems better to store the data with who cares about it in the first place. < 1323683627 747959 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everything I know about them is a result of saying "wouldn't it be neat if X existed? Oh, look, there's something vaguely similar to X described on Wikipedia. It must be exactly the thing I'm thinking of." < 1323683635 79559 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I see. < 1323683643 422498 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, in the sense I was thinking of it, you would do that. < 1323683651 226972 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then how do you do routing? < 1323683659 791060 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'd have something like a URL, dht:host/hash < 1323683670 952831 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe a collection of hosts that you could ask for any particular hash. < 1323683677 772286 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: So you reinvented IP, and then layered content-addressed HTTP on top of it? < 1323683684 288616 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, but that's definitely not a DHT. < 1323683691 397498 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :...Yes. < 1323683696 706443 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, that's not the only thing I want. < 1323683726 663648 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I want that too. < 1323683954 866653 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: So when you find out what the Best DHT is, tell me. < 1323683966 645972 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Okay, but it won't look like that. < 1323683983 293765 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Yes, I just read about DHTs. < 1323683991 597028 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay. < 1323684002 279280 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Today I learned about DHTs and eugenics! < 1323684004 579058 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A productive day. < 1323684024 355766 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eugenics: Not actually genetic engineering. DHTs: Not actually content-addressed HTTP. < 1323684026 600535 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :A DAY OF DISCOVERY. < 1323684064 258004 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel like stating the incredibly obvious: The problem with content-based addressing is that when your content changes, your addresses do too. < 1323684068 583365 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's "membase" doing on the DHT Wikipedia page? < 1323684085 420559 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: That's not really a huge problem for a lot of content. < 1323684092 915816 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: "distributed object storage system"? < 1323684094 856415 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds DHTy to me. < 1323684114 458841 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have I mentioned that the Storm botnet is really cool? < 1323684123 482314 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just wish it wasn't used for such boring things. < 1323684197 951837 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Membase is like memcached on more than one machine. < 1323684210 367173 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And also persistence.) < 1323684216 395540 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: memcached is a hash table, yes? < 1323684226 296987 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :So membase is a distributed hash table. < 1323684230 516837 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see the issue here. < 1323684245 21654 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose, technically, maybe. < 1323684284 220982 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's "distributed" in a local sense, I think. < 1323684302 236611 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also the person who added it to the wiki page works at the company that makes it. < 1323684305 569554 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Sure, but DHTs work with even a small number of nodes. < 1323684314 87025 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also I work at competitor. So I might just be biased. < 1323684322 287244 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had started to suspect some personal bias. :p < 1323684354 398087 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I think the problem your company might have is that it's competing against a company offering a DHT but its employees don't know what a DHT is. < 1323684356 405682 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :OHHHH SNAP < 1323684359 767689 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION works at a eugenics company. < 1323684379 518689 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I prefer the term "key-value" store. < 1323684404 469495 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, move that right quotation mark a word over to the right. < 1323684430 662559 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I don't have a derogatory name for those, but I need to come up with one, because I don't like them. (Well, in some situations they're good, but I can prove why each of those situations is caused by bad design elsewhere!) < 1323684495 53562 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: You can call it "NoSQL" and it has built-in derogatory overtones for the right people. < 1323684507 172261 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: But I like SQL even less. < 1323684525 200478 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Do you also hate Data.Map? < 1323684543 708913 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Data.Map is quite nice, although the implementation is pretty slow. < 1323684557 385952 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Data.HashMap is nicer, but lacks some nice functions that Data.Map has.) < 1323684619 583690 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION waits for the point. < 1323684638 822417 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: You like SQL even less than than you like people who say "NoSQL"? < 1323684648 396807 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Than than. < 1323684660 395570 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: The point was that Data.Map stores keys and values? < 1323684694 260494 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Well, OK, but "key-value stores" almost always use bytestrings as keys, and either bytestrings as values, or (bytestring,bytestring)s. < 1323684744 71081 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sometimes they use ASCII-strings-without-newlines-or-NULs-or-spaces as keys! < 1323684768 380555 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: So much better! < 1323684781 372452 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But no, maps are fine, maps with /those/ types are not. < 1323684806 211542 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, Data.Map internally stores N-BYTE POINTERS TO ITS VALUES! < 1323684823 140020 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The pointers are composed of BYTES? < 1323684826 230870 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gasp!!! < 1323684834 142287 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not really, they're bits. < 1323684843 518924 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The byte boundaries aren't relevant. < 1323684855 671537 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :byte=8 bits < 1323684861 550923 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you're telling me things are composed of bits, then thanks, Shannon! Thannon. < 1323684871 611642 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Similarly the CPU executes machine code, so we write in machine code, etc. < 1323684872 211923 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what's your point? < 1323684888 161397 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You store bytestrings in the values and then you fetch them and give them meaning. < 1323684891 222790 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Specifically we write in x86-64 machine code because that's what our CPUs do and so it clearly must be the One True etc. etc. etc. who gives a damn what the CPUs do. < 1323684946 124688 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I dislike parsing intensely. < 1323684964 82357 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rather, I *strongly* dislike serialisation/deserialisation as a regular part of the computing cycle. < 1323684978 815731 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, so what would you rather do? < 1323684992 118196 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It breaks types, it wastes cycles (yeah, yeah, it's what the CPU does, but it's still /time/), [...] < 1323685003 602888 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: It sounds like you're asking me to mumble about @. :) < 1323685026 146798 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So your answer is "I have no practical answer but I hate it anyway"? < 1323685034 299101 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fair enough. I say that to most everything. < 1323685037 87091 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: No, I'm saying "do you want me to mumble about my practical answer"? < 1323685040 110855 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*?" < 1323685048 745411 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is @ your practical answer? < 1323685057 347157 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :@ contains my practical answer to that particular question. < 1323685079 282794 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"practical" means "can be used by any of the things that use databases that actually exist today". < 1323685101 275521 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a rubbish definition. Key-value stores didn't exist until $t$. < 1323685111 905239 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did that stop them being a practical idea? < 1323685131 800474 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I kind of am planning to write this @ thing. < 1323685173 572575 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll be delighted to use it once you do! < 1323685210 482951 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I take it you're not interested in its solution to this problem. :p < 1323685234 949482 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I'm trying to decide whether to listen to your solution or go to sleep, given that I need to be awake in some smallish number of hours. < 1323685240 802358 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh, fine. What's your solution? < 1323685268 583330 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay. < 1323685299 941474 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Get ready to quake in your boots, membase! The end is nigh!) < 1323685302 744052 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Ahem. Sorry.) < 1323685314 951619 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Will your company implement @ for me?) < 1323685342 92479 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That depends on what @ is. < 1323685475 637262 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders if he's waiting for a response right now. < 1323685478 123444 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1323685482 946612 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am typing it. :p < 1323685608 946143 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Well, objects (term used outside of the context of OOP) certainly must be stored in RAM, and on disk, and they certainly must be transferred over the network, and all these things have to work with bytes. What @ changes is to turn this into a service of the system; certainly the bytes used to represent an object in a certain context must be tailored to that object in many circumstances -- you < 1323685609 168902 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably want to store and transfer a lot of images as PNGs, for instance, while operating in memory works better with a less compressed approach -- but this can be controlled by the implementation of the types in question without changing the basic model. The interface to a key-value-store-done-right must be *typed* -- you can imagine something like the vault API (http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/a < 1323685609 944723 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :rchive/vault/0.1.0.0/doc/html/Data-Vault.html). All algorithms for replication, blah blah blah, are already written without actually caring what the bytes are, or what they mean, so they can just as well be polymorphic instead. The serialisation/deserialisation to bytes, when necessary, is taken care of by the system when boundaries like memory/disk and memory/network are traversed. And to tie it all t < 1323685614 988213 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ogether, @ also provides, as a system service, a "metaprotocol" which allows distributed programming to be done without sacrificing types: the system ensures everything is well-typed, and the programmer doesn't have to, doesn't want to, and shouldn't care about how erasure of this is handled. < 1323685636 952027 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Not when writing a store, at least; it certainly makes sense to care about it when, for example, implementing custom serialisation code.) < 1323685645 642526 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/vault/0.1.0.0/doc/html/Data-Vault.html, since that link got split. < 1323685673 391597 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :copumpkin: regrettably, I am not a ppro with my arrows reversed < 1323685691 247704 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Instead you're just pooppy. < 1323685715 812639 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's true ^_^ < 1323685728 309906 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Makes sense. < 1323685734 967324 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Good to see you're finally embracing your identity! < 1323685748 529344 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: membase will be out of business in a week! < 1323685753 336638 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :all your poop are belong to us < 1323685757 136061 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION considers purchasing products from membase. < 1323685764 586162 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: It's true. < 1323685787 7450 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: By the way, have considered writing all these things about @ in a place that isn't your IRC text entry prompt? < 1323685792 433927 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I may have brought this up before. < 1323685830 760296 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Anyway, the degree to which I can be concrete ends at what "distributed-ready" code would look like, and thus what the "metaprotocol" would look like. I've found what I've read about Reactive-Demand Programming quite compelling, but I'm not sure it's The Path. < 1323685836 825559 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: And yes, I have. < 1323685849 325178 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have? < 1323685850 412852 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: The problem is that I rarely get the motivation to write so in-depth about it until someone mocks it. :-) < 1323685854 281565 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, have considered. < 1323685867 287297 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I probably will set up such a thing sometime soon. < 1323685877 901006 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: OK, so we need to mock you at regular intervals. < 1323685884 3408 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1323685893 726705 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Can we mock an outline out of you, and then mock each segment of it? < 1323685909 755751 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, membase is expensive. < 1323685924 554073 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know if I can afford $2,499.00/node just to annoy shachaf. < 1323685931 992016 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I'll get a thousandth of a node. < 1323685939 871045 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: you should call each bit an apocralypse < 1323685947 367413 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, that's like £3. < 1323685956 434562 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :in refeence to both perl 6 and discworld < 1323685966 644670 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: How much do *you* guys charge per node??? < 1323685986 831650 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: If you have to ask, you can't afford it. < 1323685999 380357 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Maybe I don't have to ask. Maybe I just want to. < 1323686029 707364 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, well, the clustered version isn't actually released yet. < 1323686062 47278 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :So... is it possible to give you money? < 1323686105 787762 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :...The "give us money" bit of the website is "currently under maintenance". < 1323686131 368840 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah! One of those post-business-model companies. I've heard about them. < 1323686133 266933 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you can download a free single-machine no-replication version. < 1323686140 306956 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION was just waiting for an opportunity to say that. < 1323686147 800034 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I CAN'T WAIT. < 1323686155 616344 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :How can I be web-scale??? < 1323686162 377401 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I MUST KNOW. < 1323686178 323242 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not even THINKING about giving money to membase any more. < 1323686190 277529 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good to hear. < 1323686202 956388 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :* elliott fights mockery with mockery. < 1323686227 836241 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Hey, maybe I just really want to be web-scale. < 1323686231 931546 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I'll make the next big thing. < 1323686242 951097 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe Y Combinator -- no, PAUL GRAHAM HIMSELF -- will fund me. < 1323686252 844669 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1323686253 867459 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I'll buy EVERY SINGLE COPY YOU HAVE and you won't be able to sell your software any more? < 1323686270 93191 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you'll be fired because I'll be RICH and giving money to MEMBASE instead!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! < 1323686274 546074 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders whether to mention that the company he works at is funded by Y Combinator. < 1323686285 848576 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mockery will undoubtedly ensue. < 1323686287 861973 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I already said it was post-business-model! < 1323686297 826268 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sighs. < 1323686325 332516 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION abandons his dreams of scaling. To the web. < 1323686330 171835 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, I haven't said cloud yet. < 1323686353 253685 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You just did. < 1323686363 972815 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not when I said that, I didn't! < 1323686400 724685 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :By the time you'd said it, you'd already said it. < 1323686423 179982 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Agoran precedent clearly states that one of the temporal orderings to things like that applies, I just can't remember what it is. < 1323686428 479897 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It came up recently when I failed to register. < 1323686473 322279 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks at vault's implementation again. < 1323686479 447186 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember these unsafeCoerces. < 1323686483 364429 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : where f' = unsafeCoerce . f . unsafeCoerce < 1323686494 743773 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: The best composition, no? < 1323686538 168860 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I must admit it has a certain charm to it. < 1323686549 690507 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks at Agora's rules. < 1323686563 522789 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's, um, possibly not the best introduction to Agora? < 1323686570 372415 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it is if you get all the way through. < 1323686570 601612 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh. These are the sorts of rules that have paragraphs that start with WHEREAS. < 1323686574 641645 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: No. < 1323686576 34488 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only one of them. < 1323686580 245809 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :R101 is Special. < 1323686595 936649 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rule 104 is the most important one, read that first. < 1323686614 52969 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's existed in its original form for 18 years, and has had absolutely no effect for approximately 18 years. < 1323686642 816410 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do the slashes mean? < 1323686652 225212 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Revision number. < 1323686655 848853 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's like CVS. < 1323686665 958908 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact, the rules are kept under RCS! < 1323686671 490070 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or at least were, until a few years ago, at least. < 1323686672 565650 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A person SHOULD NOT violate a rule." < 1323686691 150607 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :They also SHALL NOT, but SHOULD NOT means something else entirely. < 1323686698 205173 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(See rule 2152.) < 1323686715 640639 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So does the game end when someone wins? < 1323686737 118916 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1323686742 419104 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hundreds of people have won. < 1323686747 933533 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you won? < 1323686761 181999 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, once or twice, I think. By teaming up with others, mostly. < 1323686764 170060 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :By mostly, I mean entirely. < 1323686771 968494 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have I won? < 1323686797 815826 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone should make a rule where everyone wins. < 1323686799 235797 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1323686863 215138 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/jGYX < 1323686863 965288 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/RFhK < 1323686868 217945 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are these people attempting to use Spivak pronouns? < 1323686872 506016 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure why I sprunged that, but I did. < 1323686874 729696 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: "Attempting"? < 1323686882 783279 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Spivak is the universal standard. < 1323686888 761395 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the lists, too. < 1323686891 564657 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although Norrish doesn't like it. < 1323686902 681907 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, apparently there's more than one variety. < 1323686904 138683 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But he posts like, once every two years, so who cares. < 1323686911 132011 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION had only encountered "Elverson". < 1323686913 396439 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/sprunged that/sprunged those/ < 1323686919 51073 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: You mean the "ey" ones? < 1323686921 162937 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't stand the "ey" ones. < 1323686926 599747 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aye, those. < 1323686941 29034 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just keep hearing "eyyyyyyyyyyyyy" whenever anyone uses a pronoun. < 1323686979 422032 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Have I mentioned oerjan used to play Agora? < 1323686991 798112 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Before I was born. :-/ < 1323686994 52614 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You are apparently a plagiarist and a scamster. < 1323687002 332184 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Although after that too.) < 1323687018 339347 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I completely forget what the former was, and why I got the latter. < 1323687023 723425 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nonsense, the world came into existence when you were born. < 1323687041 349930 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, the PerlNomic Partnership is in the Scroll. < 1323687046 449377 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So why is it "e" but "eir"? < 1323687055 957824 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Why not? < 1323687090 386577 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suspect it derives from the LambdaMOO use, since the original nomic was played on a MUD. < 1323687092 127411 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's just a hunch. < 1323687093 269180 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. < 1323687095 855067 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*original online nomic < 1323687110 198759 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you, in fact, a penguinofthegods? < 1323687119 571823 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although, NomicWorld was only like one year after LambdaMOO spivak, apparently... < 1323687123 544302 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: No, I'm actually a turtle. < 1323687162 512360 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And apparently you are a "goon". < 1323687183 503670 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or were, before you were banned. < 1323687194 170782 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stop googling me. < 1323687203 906565 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1323687217 567267 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell elliott OK. < 1323687217 758625 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1323691041 257620 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Quit: MSN: Patashu@hotmail.com , Gmail: Patashu0@gmail.com , AIM: Patashu0 , YIM: patashu2 , Skype: patashu0 . < 1323692086 422358 :Slereah_!~butt@ANantes-259-1-160-131.w90-49.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1323692122 437759 :Slereah!~butt@ANantes-259-1-198-252.w90-49.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1323694690 784857 :derdon!~derdon@pD9E1CB1E.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1323695569 243147 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1323696294 842831 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1323700114 524737 :derdon!~derdon@pD9E1CB1E.dip.t-dialin.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1323703175 85121 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1323704885 417904 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1323705194 491508 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1323705362 453041 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1323705453 101832 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello lambdabot. < 1323705453 307365 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: You have 8 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. < 1323705715 744447 :MSleep!~fyrc@c-174-55-44-190.hsd1.pa.comcast.net NICK :MDude < 1323706696 942600 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1323706744 790133 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod NICK :BTCopumpkin < 1323706764 453884 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1323706803 765850 :BTCopumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod NICK :btcopumpkin < 1323706898 370037 :btcopumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod NICK :copumpkin < 1323706948 440805 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1323706991 476446 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1323707175 460690 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-9-173.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1323707175 796026 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-9-173.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Changing host < 1323707175 982263 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1323707266 893610 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1323707284 986084 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu NICK :sebbu < 1323707425 491803 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1323707488 213443 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1323707635 459707 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1323707671 646018 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1323708157 789361 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`log < 1323708163 8276 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :2003-05-08.txt:22:13:31: -!- Aardappel has joined #esoteric. < 1323708173 452115 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`log < 1323708176 77240 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :2007-06-06.txt:19:07:03: !bf +++++++++++++[>+++++>++++++>+++++++++>++<<<<-]+.>.++.>++++++.<++++++.++++++.-.<.>>>>++++++.<-.<+++++++++++++++++.>-.+.-. < 1323708179 937900 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`log < 1323708182 196496 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :2006-03-22.txt:20:55:02: !daemon pager bf +[,>,<[->++++++++ ++++++++ ++++++++ ++++++++<]>.<[-]+] < 1323708192 166561 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe hehe < 1323708347 660383 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bf +++++++++++++[>+++++>++++++>+++++++++>++<<<<-]+.>.++.>++++++.<++++++.++++++.-.<.>>>>++++++.<-.<+++++++++++++++++.>-.+.-. < 1323708350 365189 :EgoBot!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​.ACTION. tests < 1323708361 868493 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would've worked in 2007 :P < 1323708375 498333 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1323708480 989361 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :log seems even more fun when no specific query is made < 1323708519 79155 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`log < 1323708521 654422 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :2006-08-02.txt:08:09:22: 3 am. < 1323708656 375919 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for some reason this 3 am thing brings me back to memories of a board game about "big rigs" which was essentially about driving large trucks great distances < 1323709244 929280 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1323709610 681632 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@cpc1-sgyl29-2-0-cust632.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1323709615 80341 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@cpc1-sgyl29-2-0-cust632.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com QUIT :Changing host < 1323709615 264973 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1323711808 528885 :Klisz!~Klisz@c-67-176-12-54.hsd1.co.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1323713802 556291 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1323713881 387768 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1323714526 579965 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1323714537 488503 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric : for some reason this 3 am thing brings me back to memories of a board game about "big rigs" which was essentially about driving large trucks great distances // that sounds almost as exciting as 1835: The game of railroad unification in Germany. < 1323715756 500272 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That sounds a little less boring than Transport Tycoon Deluxe. < 1323715772 298970 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(OH SNA— oh wait nobody except fizzie will care.) < 1323715788 291257 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Insert speech recognition snipe.) < 1323715900 324938 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am bored enough to care < 1323715931 235568 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :simulating railway history with a boardgame is more important than anything else < 1323716214 560813 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: WELL THEN HAVE I GOT GOOD NEWS FOR YOU! < 1323716223 172115 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: There's a whole SLEW of 18XX railroad unification board games! < 1323717293 962404 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell elliott http://www.3rdshiftthoughts.com/2008/11/thank-less-culture.html < 1323717294 155474 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1323717350 894216 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a joke right < 1323717387 190152 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: I don't think so. < 1323717393 706590 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i................ < 1323717417 402176 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :dude read the panel on the right it's hilarious < 1323717455 491660 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also fucked up < 1323717497 751466 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :please be a joke < 1323717502 316351 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the bright side of abortions < 1323717557 701445 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"abortions" < 1323717592 16368 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Satan is tempting and effortlessly distracting people from anything tree and right and good to that which pleases themselves." <-- this typo adds so many layers of lols. < 1323717600 330293 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Satan is distracting us from Christmas trees you guys. < 1323717604 920365 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're the true meaning of Christmas. < 1323717689 176234 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like how people don't think twice about accidentally killing an animal on a highway, but.. one human cell is a big deal (and also is waiting for them in heaven) < 1323717698 63025 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if they'll be able to find their unborn daughters. they're pretty small. < 1323717703 752945 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that how heaven works? < 1323717705 392251 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :help < 1323717733 692069 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.cracked.com/blog/31-inspirational-tumblr-photos-adjusted-honesty/ < 1323717738 591423 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find this strangely hilarious. < 1323717817 244805 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: "There has never been any evidence presented that the soul can enter the body at any time later than conception." — Conservapedia < 1323717820 996417 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't make this shit up. < 1323717847 120059 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow good job conservapedia < 1323717872 84753 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, there's a moderately high chance that someone did indeed make that shit up. < 1323717901 301591 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fair point. < 1323717917 243977 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :But /I/ can't make this shit up, and /you/ cant make this shit up, because we're smarter than turnips :P < 1323717925 714909 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :(No offense to the humble turnip) < 1323717947 499234 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, but we /could/ make that shit up if we were trying to mock the kind of people who say it. < 1323717955 146363 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I could. < 1323717965 473361 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not capable of the sheer convolution of stupidity required. < 1323718130 788735 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are bits of the Conservative Bible Project which would be glaringly obvious parody were it not for the fact that the diffs clearly show that Schlafly wrote them. < 1323718146 764306 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was wondering why I felt so tired, and then I realized < 1323718149 972506 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no caffeine in me. < 1323718167 291180 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like when it says that Jesus telling the disciples to cast their nets on the right of the boat clearly showed his endorsement of conservatism. < 1323718181 942397 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1323718324 830975 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :That ... < 1323718329 441067 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :See, I couldn't make that shit up. < 1323718351 130314 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if maybe Schlafly is just the greatest troll on Earth. < 1323719501 75482 :Slereah_!~butt@ANantes-259-1-160-131.w90-49.abo.wanadoo.fr PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think at that level of effort, it stops being a troll and blooms into a problem < 1323719937 981353 :variable!root@freebsd/developer/variable NICK :const < 1323720832 632643 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1323722442 544094 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I think next time I get paid I'm gonna buy a computer. < 1323722727 603697 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: you don't have a computer!? < 1323722968 523962 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's just using telepathy < 1323722978 818086 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or would that be telekinesis < 1323723388 708292 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1323724446 338664 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: telemagnetism < 1323724586 568476 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1323724660 545189 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: but yes, obviously wanting to buy a computer implies I don't have one. < 1323724684 233767 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Telemagnetism! < 1323724703 746042 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Telectromagnetism. < 1323724763 719795 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :more accurately, I suppose. < 1323725094 445699 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1323725644 760209 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1323726413 32902 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1323726718 151690 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1323726734 991176 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I've got my todo list for this down to one thing. < 1323726743 261204 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Write an actual todo list < 1323726746 12431 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, hello! < 1323726772 38923 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was thinking you had got it down to "hello!" < 1323726792 814468 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nah, "hello!" is absent from this todo list < 1323726802 456634 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shocking < 1323726824 780011 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Damn telectromagnetism. < 1323726863 625695 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Telectromagnetism: The shocking story < 1323726956 689256 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Telekinesis: The story of a movement < 1323726969 851058 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I get the todo list empty, you'll be able to critisize my Haskell programming again! < 1323726973 745687 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everyone loves that! < 1323727013 445032 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> unwords $ repeat "Yay!" < 1323727014 260600 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : "Yay! Yay! Yay! Yay! Yay! Yay! Yay! Yay! Yay! Yay! Yay! Yay! Yay! Yay! Yay!... < 1323727104 192616 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay!... < 1323727177 451585 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you make IRC tell you when someone comes online? < 1323727344 48633 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just need to watch it constantly < 1323727350 505929 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay < 1323727369 334508 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even if it's a particular person I'm looking for? < 1323727390 455514 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :depends on the client?? < 1323727399 167089 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it occurs to me that a tree zipper can be used quite trivially with the State monad, however < 1323727417 561960 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really think it's very useful because the zipper abstraction pretty much hides the state. < 1323727442 388581 :derdon!~derdon@p5DE8ACB8.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1323727465 891795 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: perhaps you could set up a hilight that matches their join message (is that even a thing you can do?) < 1323727486 36373 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe, in irssi, a perl script that outputs a notification to the main window < 1323727492 801717 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've added them to my friends list? < 1323727505 993085 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :friends. list? IRC? < 1323727523 163891 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :On XChat, somehow < 1323727525 834944 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :THERE ARE NO FRIENDS ON IRC ONLY ENEMIES. < 1323727530 141271 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe it was Facebook... < 1323727564 265126 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1323727585 554677 :kallisti!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net NICK :xxDarkAbyssxx < 1323727600 53048 :xxDarkAbyssxx!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so this is going to be my new nick from now on. < 1323727617 125479 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I preferred CakeProphet < 1323727655 382283 :xxDarkAbyssxx!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net NICK :xxDarkProphetxx < 1323727657 651388 :xxDarkProphetxx!~eris@h53.38.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :there we go. < 1323727939 393378 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the prophet of the chocolate cake < 1323728059 975912 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-228-21.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://i.imgur.com/4mQLU.jpg Jesus. Fuck China. < 1323728071 221782 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-228-21.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that's *smog*) < 1323728136 378898 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ha! They are a good fifty years behind London's scientists in smog making techniques! < 1323728174 717098 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-228-21.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :London's got fog problems. You're not literally looking at the sun through miles of soot. < 1323728188 977355 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fifty years ago, however... < 1323728198 751710 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or was it 100? < 1323728222 166301 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-228-21.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still probably not that bad. < 1323728238 480424 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Smog_of_1952 < 1323728255 199967 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-228-21.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was a picture of a normal day. < 1323728280 754672 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fair nuff < 1323728331 990247 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :London was, to my knowledge, the first place to have air pollution laws < 1323728392 772145 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :In 1306 < 1323728400 749464 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Silly southeners < 1323728534 378571 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4d0b7179.pool.mediaWays.net QUIT :Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de < 1323728572 837015 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm < 1323728586 803868 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1323728587 20256 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott QUIT :Client Quit < 1323728600 327388 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I used Either StdGen Int instead of (StdGen, Bool) it would make things easier < 1323728614 142249 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No it wouldn't < 1323728617 179837 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1323728623 458415 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :...IDEA! < 1323728625 810106 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1323728626 353959 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1323728628 287935 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:14:19: http://i.imgur.com/4mQLU.jpg Jesus. Fuck China. < 1323728628 490912 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: You have 4 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. < 1323728631 564776 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: this is pretty < 1323728652 334748 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-228-21.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Your lungs disagree. < 1323728779 916989 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1323728879 76981 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :could that just be a foggy day? < 1323728898 633974 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember going to London as a chil < 1323728899 332738 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :d < 1323728950 878229 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seeing as at that point I'd lived mainly in the remote town of Hexham, and had poor weak lungs, I coped badly < 1323728961 455287 :TeruFSX!~quassel@71-210-150-147.mpls.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1323729045 769290 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why does < 1323729051 69565 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :> init . init [1..10] < 1323729051 929711 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : No instances for (GHC.Num.Num [a], GHC.Enum.Enum [a]) < 1323729052 106284 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : arising from a use... < 1323729057 365034 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :not work < 1323729066 125541 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but > (.) init init [1..10] < 1323729069 688119 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait < 1323729070 476211 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :?unpl init . init [1..10] < 1323729070 701666 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(\ c -> init (init [1 .. 10] c)) < 1323729081 914445 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (.) init init [1..10] < 1323729083 618329 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8] < 1323729092 756674 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1323729095 643043 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanks Deewiant < 1323729099 418367 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-228-21.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :copumpkin: Theoretically it could be, but it genuinely isn't. Beijing just has constant pollution. < 1323729105 369965 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(.) confuses me a lto < 1323729115 383204 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :> init . init $ [1..10] < 1323729116 947094 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8] < 1323729118 973719 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (init . init) [1..10] < 1323729120 688976 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8] < 1323729137 896416 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :> init $ init [1..10] < 1323729138 685500 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8] < 1323729167 787393 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey Deewiant I figured out roughly how Shiro's fungespace works, GET TREMBLING < 1323729200 793029 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah i can hear they've started selling new year fireworks < 1323729212 762404 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah I saw something about it some 22 hours ago < 1323729213 596315 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which means _someone_ has to try them out now) < 1323729218 81510 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hope it works out < 1323729273 122202 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: ah < 1323729358 814188 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Weeeell technically that's only the prototype fungespace :) < 1323729373 389792 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I need to figure out what the zipper of a k-d tree is to get the real thing < 1323729391 736154 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: you just have to remember that function application has higher precedence than all operators, so you cannot just add an argument to apply an expression with an operator in it < 1323729395 247730 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadtree might be good enough < 1323729415 357808 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, sleep --> < 1323729444 7735 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Uhh, no < 1323729448 188480 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: That won't handle slowdown < 1323729480 474431 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not releasing until I'm faster than CCBI on all the programs I can find that don't run in less than half a millisecond :P < 1323729561 357213 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :vaporware by design < 1323729574 711100 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not going to stop until I can search through the logs for me saying "I may" and can say, "I did!" < 1323729578 273494 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Honestly < 1323729593 17880 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stop what, do I hear you ask? < 1323729604 969938 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`log Ngevd> .*I may < 1323729606 362485 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Saying "I may"? < 1323729610 290134 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Taneb too < 1323729618 330559 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :2011-12-11.txt:15:58:15: During that, I think I may have worked out a way to do rudimentary arithmetic < 1323729621 218078 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`log Taneb> .*I may < 1323729627 201649 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :2011-07-11.txt:15:27:10: I may make an esolang based on football (soccer) < 1323729646 196629 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The first one was in my fervent bytepusher dream < 1323729655 296992 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which was... yesterday < 1323729668 701668 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The second one, I don't remember < 1323729672 295313 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But was in... < 1323729678 906376 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :July!? < 1323729680 439599 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't believe you have to scan a document with a phone number to contribute to tup. < 1323730201 552832 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, my awful code is almost ready to be posted in here for... < 1323730206 648972 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Help < 1323730227 644572 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1323730232 996447 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just need to save it and see if it works < 1323730235 728420 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi, monqy < 1323730264 266317 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :In other news, tiffany is now my strongest Pokémon < 1323730289 126495 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :After she defeated the Mauville and Lavaridge gym leaders singlehandedly < 1323730300 818958 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And just like that, tiffany's existence was given some justification. < 1323730371 975134 :tswett!~Warrigal@thay.Stanford.EDU PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, I found Gregor on Spokeo. He's a married black male in his late 50s who lives in an apartment worth about $37,000. He did not go to college and works in sales. < 1323730378 934992 :tswett!~Warrigal@thay.Stanford.EDU PRIVMSG #esoteric :He lives in Detroit. < 1323730398 262126 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`log Ngevd> .*I may < 1323730403 740829 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :2011-12-12.txt:22:40:04: `log Ngevd> .*I may < 1323730408 630627 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`log Ngevd> .*I may < 1323730414 327291 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :2011-10-04.txt:20:37:46: I may try to write a Fibonacci numbers thing in Brook < 1323730422 338889 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote Hey, I found Gregor on Spokeo. He's a married black male in his late 50s who lives in an apartment worth about $37,000. He did not go to college and works in sales. He lives in Detroit. < 1323730425 6122 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :761) Hey, I found Gregor on Spokeo. He's a married black male in his late 50s who lives in an apartment worth about $37,000. He did not go to college and works in sales. He lives in Detroit. < 1323730426 610975 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, I did try to do that < 1323730427 781965 :tswett!~Warrigal@thay.Stanford.EDU PRIVMSG #esoteric :I... think we might have found the wrong one. < 1323730430 613290 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Didn't get very far < 1323730434 580378 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`delquote 761 < 1323730437 508643 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​*poof* Hey, I found Gregor on Spokeo. He's a married black male in his late 50s who lives in an apartment worth about $37,000. He did not go to college and works in sales. He lives in Detroit. < 1323730440 199673 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote Hey, I found Gregor on Spokeo. He's a married black male in his late 50s who lives in an apartment worth about $37,000. He did not go to college and works in sales. He lives in Detroit. I... think we might have found the wrong one. < 1323730442 738457 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :761) Hey, I found Gregor on Spokeo. He's a married black male in his late 50s who lives in an apartment worth about $37,000. He did not go to college and works in sales. He lives in Detroit. I... think we might have found the wrong one. < 1323730468 908525 :tswett!~Warrigal@thay.Stanford.EDU PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, of course, it says "To see all of Gregor Richards's personal information » Click Here". < 1323730477 339043 :tswett!~Warrigal@thay.Stanford.EDU PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just love how everyone's personal information is up for sale now. < 1323730563 556013 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah Gregor cannot be black, he looks nothing like Michael Jackson. < 1323730669 864173 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you saying all black people look alike? Michael Jackson looks nothing like Eminem. < 1323730695 934841 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, just the skin color, of course < 1323730718 38879 :tswett!~Warrigal@thay.Stanford.EDU PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm beginning to doubt that everything in this channel is completely true and unmisleading. < 1323730734 514896 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::o < 1323730748 579705 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: well we do occasionally get trolls, like that guy earlier < 1323730764 887133 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-228-21.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1323730776 766521 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-254-246.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1323731086 156627 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-93-115.as13285.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1323731634 524699 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION → sleep < 1323731636 980844 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1323731964 321427 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I like how your hostname is still "foobar". < 1323731967 711594 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*username < 1323732321 891711 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4d0b7179.pool.mediaWays.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1323732382 738420 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: It's a good'n. < 1323732868 211463 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4d0b7179.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :listen and enjoy.. berlin! http://homepage.alice.de/hagbard/stadtkind_(barbara_morgenstern_remix).mp3 < 1323733137 699691 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-254-246.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1323733142 809535 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-252-5.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1323733683 203644 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1323734097 177409 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the DVD recorder is connected to itself, it allows to record a Macrovisioned VHS tape to DVD.