00:08:15 <kallisti> !perl %h = (1,2); print ref \($h{1})
00:08:44 <kallisti> !perl sub test { 1 } %h = (1,\test); print ref \($h{1})
00:10:03 <kallisti> !perl sub test { 1 } %h = (1,\test); undef ${\$h{1}}; print $h{1}
00:12:25 <kallisti> uh oh, I'm using a nested loop. I better rewrite it with gotos and labels.
00:34:42 <oerjan> kallisti: clearly you mean comefroms. hth.
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00:55:14 <kallisti> !perl @a = (1,2,3,4); $b = \@a; @c = @$b; $d = \($c[$#c]); $$d = 3; print @$b
01:20:32 <zzo38> When a DVD is recording and a VHS is playing at the same time, without using the copying feature, the on-screen display is different and component video out doesn't work and a few other differences.
01:21:25 <zzo38> (It also supports recording on VHS and play DVD at the same time, and recording on VHS or DVD and playing a file on SD card or USB. But you cannot record on two drives at the same time.)
01:37:07 <oerjan> `frink 8 million km/h -> c
01:37:18 <HackEgo> Conformance error \ Left side is: 1.2073523605465162560e+43 m^-1 s kg^-1 (unknown unit type) \ Right side is: 299792458 m s^-1 (velocity) \ Suggestion: multiply left side by energy \ \ For help, type: units[energy] \ to list known units with these dimensions.
01:38:05 <oerjan> `frink 8000000 km/h -> c
01:38:14 <HackEgo> Conformance error \ Left side is: 1.2073523605465162560e+43 m^-1 s kg^-1 (unknown unit type) \ Right side is: 299792458 m s^-1 (velocity) \ Suggestion: multiply left side by energy \ \ For help, type: units[energy] \ to list known units with these dimensions.
01:38:28 <oerjan> `frink 8 million km/hr -> c
01:38:37 <HackEgo> 10000000/1349066061 (approx. 0.007412535448847823)
01:42:55 <itidus21> zzo38: my brother is setting up lounge room as entertainment area.. my only fear is he will abscond with things from my room.
01:51:45 <zzo38> itidus21: Then lock your room.
01:52:26 <itidus21> i am such a person that can't say no to anyone who is prepared to use intimidation
01:52:57 <itidus21> if you extrapolate this idea sufficiently into all areas of my life, you will realize why i live in my moms basement without any friends or lovers or money :D
01:54:01 <monqy> what happens when your mother dies? or will you be dead too by then
01:55:03 <oerjan> you will then become like me and live in a small shared apartment without any friends or lovers or money.
01:55:08 <itidus21> when my mom dies my brother says "all those times i said we could share the house i was lying. now we will see if you were bluffing when you said you don't even care"
01:56:00 <itidus21> basically, life ain't so hard once people stop leeching off you
01:56:13 <itidus21> it's the leeches themselves which represent the problems
01:57:28 <itidus21> when i was a lot younger, i figured out how my life would work out when if i poured a glass of cordial my brother would take it
01:57:40 <itidus21> and so, i learned, if i want a glass i need to pour one for everyone
01:58:07 <itidus21> but, it is all simply peoples way of responding automatically to someone who doesn't say no
01:59:13 <itidus21> its a bit like taking phrases like "sharing is caring" and just distorting them sufficiently that you can turn a profit
02:01:28 <itidus21> anyway i don't think i have anything in my room that he needs
02:06:35 <itidus21> oerjan: it's not so bad is it?
02:07:27 <itidus21> it's important to note for anyone reading my little monologue that i actually react like this towards most people, and it's not that i single my brother out
02:12:05 <oerjan> itidus21: YOU BETTER FIX YOUR PERSONALITY FLAWS OR I WILL BAN YOU
02:15:35 <itidus21> i used to argue inspite of his anger which he tended to take out on the plaster walls, by being a smartass which was perhaps not so wise
02:15:56 <itidus21> until one time he throw a stick at my head and i got the message then
02:16:20 <oerjan> itidus21: i think the general advice for people living with psychopats is "get the HELL out of there"
02:18:26 <itidus21> i think i just make him seem like a psychopath due to my own refusal to actually say no to anyone about anything
02:24:43 <itidus21> oerjan: no no it seems i am missing the point.. he may well be.. i would be lying if i didn't suspect him of it
02:26:47 <oerjan> well i'm getting this intuitive warning feeling which says to stop my own speculation - only you can know.
02:28:18 <itidus21> oerjan: i know how easy "get the hell out" sounds.. but it is the advice which would never be taken
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03:02:55 <Rachel88> Facebook Traffic Generation Secrets Revealed , http://fb.weightdeals.com/
03:03:10 <Gregor> oerjan: Banning secrets revealed?
03:03:28 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
03:03:33 -!- oerjan has kicked Rachel88 Rachel88.
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03:04:00 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b *!*prophaze@59.93.41.*.
03:04:00 -!- oerjan has kicked Rachel88 Rachel88.
03:04:02 <Gregor> oerjan: That was not a ban, that was a kick.
03:04:12 <oerjan> irssi autocompleted to the wrong command
03:04:18 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
03:04:19 <Gregor> kick instead of kickban?
03:05:23 <Gregor> Bizarre that it came back ... was there a human attached to that spam???
03:06:00 <Gregor> No, but that doesn't mean you can't consider it a curiosity :P
03:15:43 <kallisti> oerjan: the pleas for reconsideration must be the most rewarding aspect of IRC operating.
03:17:52 <itidus21> this is the most exciting thing to happen in #esoteric all day? :-D
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03:18:54 <kallisti> oh god I've changed so many things there's no way this is going to work first try.
03:32:34 <coppro> kallisti: I love that feeling
03:37:49 -!- PiRSquared17 has changed nick to {{stub}}.
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03:40:42 * kallisti completely gutted his IRC bot and put in a plugin system.
03:42:27 <oerjan> now you just need slow and buggy implementations of half of common lisp and sendmail.
03:43:33 <kallisti> uuuugh why does perl require modules to return a true value
03:43:47 <oerjan> so it knows you're not lying, duh
03:44:34 <Sgeo> kallisti, oerjan update
03:44:48 <Sgeo> Because I need to ping two people, don't I?)
03:46:06 <kallisti> only in Perl is it customary to end a file with a 1;
04:08:55 <zzo38> kallisti: I don't know; maybe just in case you sometimes need it to check something instead of always success
04:10:01 <kallisti> zzo38: well yes that's the purpose.
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04:44:23 <zzo38> What is "usefulness of uselessness"?
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05:05:45 * kallisti loves making things unecessarily flexible.
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06:41:17 <Sgeo> http://beust.com/weblog/2010/07/28/why-scalas-option-and-haskells-maybe-types-wont-save-you-from-null/
06:41:26 <Sgeo> This person is an idiot, but does he work on other stuff?
06:44:51 <copumpkin> I don't really mind him much, if I don't pay too much attention to what he says
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06:49:47 <shachaf> copumpkin: That's not how you deal with people on the Internet who don't agree with you on everything.
06:50:28 * shachaf is glad to have explained the matter.
06:53:52 <kallisti> "I find that hash tables allowing null values are rare to the point where this limitation has never bothered me in fifteen years of Java."
06:54:36 <kallisti> "See what’s going on here? You avoid a NullPointerException by… testing against null, except that it's called None. What have we gained, exactly?"
06:54:50 <kallisti> compile-time error vs. runtime error (er, well... in Haskell, I don't know anything about Scala)
06:55:26 <Sgeo> Can still get the equivalent of a NullPointerException by doing fromJust
06:55:40 <Sgeo> But if you use fromJust without any sort of checking, you're a moron.
06:55:58 <Madoka-Kaname> Isn't the whole point of Option to... statically type for null types?
06:56:01 <monqy> other good things to do: unsafeCoerce, unsafePerformIO, kill yourself
06:56:47 <Sgeo> Are there valid uses of fromJust?
06:57:06 <monqy> there are also valid uses of unsafeCoerce, unsafePerformIO
06:57:11 <Sgeo> Although I think I've seen a recommendation that even in those cases, better to use a case where the Nothing case points to an error "Blah blah blah"
06:57:32 <kallisti> Sgeo: it's generally safe to use fromJust if you know for certain that Nothing is impossible.
06:57:49 <shachaf> kallisti: Please don't use fromJust even if you know for certain that Nothing is impossible.
06:58:02 <kallisti> it happens so infrequently that I don't have to!
06:58:10 <shachaf> Even when it happens, don't use fromJust.
06:58:18 <shachaf> Use let Just x = ..., or something.
06:58:24 <kallisti> is the reason: because I may be stupid?
06:58:34 <monqy> fromjust is nice in ghci and friends at the very least
06:58:44 <shachaf> The reason is: If it turns out to be Nothing, the error message will be completely unhelpful.
06:58:54 <lambdabot> *Exception: Maybe.fromJust: Nothing
06:59:10 <shachaf> Whereas if you do let Just x =, or fromMaybe (error "something useful"), the error message will tell you something.
06:59:14 <kallisti> Haskell's runtime errors could certainly use an improvement
06:59:20 <shachaf> Remember that you don't really get stack traces in Haskell.
06:59:29 <monqy> > let Just x = Nothing
06:59:30 <lambdabot> not an expression: `let Just x = Nothing'
06:59:32 <kallisti> just a line number would be nice
06:59:39 <monqy> > let Just x = Nothing in 5
06:59:40 <Sgeo> > let Just x = Nothing in x
06:59:41 <lambdabot> *Exception: <interactive>:3:4-19: Irrefutable pattern failed for pattern Da...
06:59:45 <monqy> oh right haha laziness wow
06:59:56 <zzo38> I think fromJust is OK, although usually it should not be used.
06:59:57 <shachaf> kallisti: That's why you use let!
07:00:11 <shachaf> Giving you a line number would be equivalent to giving you a stack trace, more or less.
07:00:22 <shachaf> Unless you mean that you want the line number of the line that fromJust is defined in.
07:01:27 <shachaf> Anyway, if you know that it's never Nothing, just don't use a Maybe.
07:03:24 <kallisti> it's a hypothetical scenario. Perhaps a function that could result in Nothing doesn't when given a certain input.
07:03:33 <kallisti> I'm not saying it's common as it's probably not.
07:05:34 <Sgeo> If it's given a certain input, and you know the output, you don't need to call the function
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07:06:38 <kallisti> Sgeo: uh... I didn't say I know the output
07:06:42 <kallisti> just that I know it's not a Nothing
07:07:01 <kallisti> but yes pattern matching gives better errors, that's true.
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07:21:10 <kallisti> !perl use File::Spec; print %INC;
07:21:11 <EgoBot> warnings.pm/usr/share/perl/5.10/warnings.pmwarnings/register.pm/usr/share/perl/5.10/warnings/register.pmFile/Spec.pm/usr/share/perl/5.10/File/Spec.pmFile/Spec/Unix.pm/usr/share/perl/5.10/File/Spec/Unix.pmvars.pm/usr/share/perl/5.10/vars.pmstrict.pm/usr/share/perl/5.10/strict.pm
07:22:03 <kallisti> !perl use File::Spec; $INC{"/usr/share/perl/5.10/File/Spec/Unix.pm"} = undef;
07:24:36 <kallisti> !perl use File::Spec; print keys %INC
07:24:37 <EgoBot> warnings.pmwarnings/register.pmFile/Spec.pmFile/Spec/Unix.pmvars.pmstrict.pm
07:27:16 <fizzie> I just sent one of those... what do you call it... a facsimile, or "fux" for short. How... 1980s?
07:27:29 <kallisti> fizzie: hey! I've done that before!
07:28:36 <fizzie> It had my signature on it. It's crazy how that's seen as somehow reliable and tamper-proof and whatever, but an email with a scanned bitmap is obviously completely untrustworthy. (Let alone an email with just a digital signature.)
07:31:42 <zzo38> I have a package of four monad transformers: FinderT, InbindT, ReadthisT, WithoutT.
07:33:25 <Sgeo> Actually, what are any of them?
07:33:40 <Sgeo> ReadmeT, a monad transformer to force people to read your READMEs
07:34:01 <zzo38> ReadthisT allows a monad to access itself except for the return values.
07:35:53 <zzo38> newtype ReadthisT f x = ReadthisT { runReadthisT :: f () -> f x };
07:37:11 <zzo38> Now do you know what it means?
07:42:54 <zzo38> readself x = x >>= ($ (() <$ x)) . runReadthisT;
07:43:04 <zzo38> readfunc = ReadthisT . (pure .);
07:44:59 <zzo38> readfunc fst :: ReadthisT ((,) String) String; (using (,) monad from Data.Monoid.Plus) Now you read the so far accumulated string
07:45:49 <zzo38> Now can you understand it better?
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07:49:32 <Sgeo> kallisti, update
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08:47:22 <pikhq> "You want to fuck with a mathematician? Just begin a sentence with, "Let ϵ → ∞."
08:47:56 <Sgeo> The limit as ϵ → ∞ ?
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08:59:09 <oklopol> i can't see those characters :(
09:04:29 <Sgeo> epsilon, rightarrow, and infinity
09:04:59 <Sgeo> Wait, I don't know if that's an epsilon
09:05:21 <oklopol> because epsilon is usually not used like that
09:05:27 <kallisti> I think it's big epsilon and not small?
09:05:35 <Sgeo> It looks more like backwards "in set" thingy
09:05:56 <Sgeo> Wait, not backwards
09:06:07 <Sgeo> It looks like the in-set thingy
09:06:15 <oklopol> argh, this thing claims to have "unicode support", should i be seeing those?
09:07:58 <oklopol> i have 4.0.4 and 3.2.6 apparently already had unicode support
09:08:21 <Sgeo> Check the font
09:10:02 <kallisti> it would be awesome to have an OS that you could ask to do things.
09:10:23 <kallisti> and it would ask questions to clarify information until it was specific enough that it would confirm if you want to do something
09:10:57 * kallisti imagines typing something like "get more fonts" and then it responds with "would you like to install such and such font pack?"
09:11:15 <oklopol> if it's not monospace, please just say "i don't use a font, i'm a stupid"
09:11:46 <Sgeo> As it turns out, it is monospace.
09:11:53 <Sgeo> Literally Monospace
09:11:56 <kallisti> oklopol: do you think monospace fonts are appropriate for all situations?
09:12:12 <Sgeo> I don't know how Monospace is a font, but it is
09:12:27 <Sgeo> Unless it is codeword for "System default monospace font"
09:12:39 <fizzie> Sgeo: It's U+03F5 GREEK LUNATE EPSILON SYMBOL, aka 'straight epsilon'; as opposed to something like U+03B5 GREEK SMALL LETTER EPSILON. (TeXwise, it's \epsilon and not \varepsilon.)
09:13:09 <oklopol> so okay just the usual epsilon
09:13:13 <Sgeo> I wonder what the Greeks would think of our use of their alphabet
09:13:28 <fizzie> They would say STOP STEALING OUR LETTERS YOU BASTURDS.
09:13:58 <fizzie> They'd be all "soon we can't write at all because you've stolen all our letters".
09:14:23 <kallisti> all of their small epsilons will expand into nothingness.
09:14:32 <oklopol> he uses them exactly like everyone else, except that he doesn't make a clear distinction between m and for instance and just pronounces each as em or mu at random
09:14:50 <oklopol> just like i don't differentiate between M, m and others in speech
09:15:43 <Sgeo> (Sorry, I had to)
09:15:57 <kallisti> Sgeo: ahahahahahahahaihswerjwerjwejr
09:16:29 <kallisti> oklopol: nothing, don't mistake my fake laughter for laughter at something interesting.
09:17:19 <oklopol> still don't know what the joke is
09:17:36 <Sgeo> There's a pokemon called Mewtwo
09:18:14 <oklopol> well yeah, true, it means something.
09:19:25 <oklopol> was 2 the one that looked like random pixels in that one pokemon version
09:19:46 <Sgeo> No, that's Missingno
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09:20:37 <Sgeo> Hmm, it might be Missingno.
09:23:32 <Sgeo> Note that none of this should be taken to imply that I know much about Pokemon.
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09:48:47 <Sgeo> `welcome cswords
09:48:54 <Sgeo> `?welcome cswords
09:48:55 <HackEgo> cswords: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
09:48:56 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ?welcome: not found
09:50:08 <Sgeo> Sorry, I have no idea if you're a regular or not
09:50:51 <cswords> Grad student in PL, looking for some neat hangouts.
09:52:45 <Sgeo> The thing is, sometimes people come in who are looking for weird spiritual stuff, "esoterica" I guess. That's not what this is about. PL stuff is what this is about
09:53:03 <Sgeo> So, just wanted to be sure. And welcome!
09:53:38 <fizzie> Isn't there a chanserv-driven automagical welcome message anyhow? Or does that sort of thing still exist?
09:53:53 <cswords> Well, thanks for the welcome! It seems liek ti'll be a good time.
09:54:15 <cswords> Does lambdabot break if you feed it little omega?
09:54:44 <Sgeo> lambdabot is a Haskell bot
09:55:02 <Sgeo> Ah. I'm not sure what you mean by little omega >.>
09:55:07 <cswords> lambdabot, ((lambda (x) (x x)) (lambda (x) (x x))
09:55:11 <fizzie> It's got an evaluation time limit.
09:55:50 <Sgeo> > (\x -> x x) (\x -> x x)
09:55:51 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: t = t -> t1
09:56:14 <fizzie> Here's one long-running thing:
09:56:30 * cswords doesn't know much Haskell... yet.
09:58:08 <fizzie> Whoops, there's a department christmas lunch thing-thing now. ->
09:58:24 <Sgeo> I need to go to sleep soon
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10:08:19 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
10:08:27 <fizzie> There's another topical bot.
10:08:42 <fizzie> (Forgot to advertise it for a moment there.)
10:09:13 <fizzie> fungot: What do you have to say for yourself?
10:09:13 <fungot> fizzie: fnord juhannusn fnord fnord
10:09:29 <fizzie> fungot: Nice first impression there, dude.
10:09:29 <fungot> fizzie: i didn't know that. thanks catfive :) i need dynamic class support ( dynamic fnord of c modules", which means that i have
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13:53:54 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 5 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
13:54:14 <elliott> <lambdabot> Gregor said 20h 57m 45s ago: DAAA DADADAAA DADA DADADADADADADADA DAAA DADADAAA DADA DADADADADADADADA
13:54:14 <elliott> <lambdabot> oerjan said 17h 11m 25s ago: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
13:54:21 <elliott> What a beautiful collaboration.
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15:05:27 <elliott> Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa I am being sucked into the vortex
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15:53:40 <nullbytes> Is it actually possible to write a brainhype interpreter?
15:58:31 <elliott> Assuming brainhype is what I recall it being.
15:58:58 <elliott> "This language is "super-Turing-complete" because it solves the halting problem for Turing machines."
15:59:06 <elliott> So, yeah, unimplementable, assuming the Church-Turing thesis is true.
15:59:45 <nullbytes> But it says "you can write a Brainhype interpreter in Scheme-omega."
16:00:17 <elliott> nullbytes: Yes, but you can't write a Scheme-omega interpreter, either.
16:00:41 <elliott> So, OK, you can write an interpreter, just not an interpreter in anything you can run :)
16:00:47 <nullbytes> :( the wiki page doesnt make that part clear
16:01:00 <elliott> The linked page does. Well, assuming you're familiar with the halting problem.
16:01:17 <elliott> Technically you can't run any Turing-complete languages either because computers have finite memory.
16:01:27 <elliott> But it's easier to fake that than it is to fake a solution to the halting problem :P
16:01:59 <nullbytes> Cant the halting problem be solved for programs with very limited memory?
16:02:14 <elliott> A Turing machine can solve the halting problem for finite state machines, yes.
16:02:23 <elliott> However brainfuck is Turing-complete, not a finite state automaton.
16:02:32 <elliott> And brainhype is brainfuck + extras.
16:03:37 <nullbytes> But what if at every instruction you record the instruction and everything in memory. If this ever repeats or you run out of memory, theres an infinite loop
16:04:12 <elliott> nullbytes: That works for finite state machines.
16:04:20 <elliott> Turing machines have infinite loops with non-repeating states.
16:04:30 <elliott> +[>+] -- this brainfuck program runs forever, but never repeats state.
16:04:56 <elliott> (The original brainfuck interpreter only had some 30k cells, but the conventional version and the one brainhype is based on has infinite memory.)
16:04:59 <nullbytes> well couldnt you limit the available memory and call every combination of bits a state?
16:06:10 <elliott> If you limit the available memory, then it's no longer Turing complete, and it's no longer brainfuck.
16:06:24 -!- nullbytes has quit (Quit: Page closed).
16:06:55 <elliott> Ngevd: Do you know the HORROR of the halting problem?
16:17:27 -!- ais523 has joined.
16:19:17 <elliott> we just tried to prove the halting problem a couple of times
16:19:50 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
16:19:59 <ais523> you were trying to write a general halt-detector?
16:20:32 <elliott> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2011-12-15#155321 :p
16:20:36 <elliott> ok, so it lasted all of ~30 lines
16:20:45 <ais523> I'd be very surprised if the halting theorem turned out to be incorrect; its proof is pretty simple and it's stood up for years
16:21:19 <elliott> ais523: But it'd make all those pesky problems about countable sets decidable!
16:22:08 <elliott> Someone should figure out exactly how much you can solve with a halting oracle; I'm pretty sure you can nest it to solve some statements about uncountable sets, but I don't think it can do everything.
16:22:28 <elliott> Probably somebody already has.
16:23:05 <ais523> wow, security update in bzip2
16:23:17 <ais523> that's a little surprising
16:23:31 <ais523> (temporary file related)
16:23:41 <ais523> also, vague arrgh at gksudo stealing focus
16:23:45 <elliott> It was threatening the very integrity of the universe.
16:23:46 <ais523> although, I can see why it /does/
16:23:52 <elliott> ais523: err, gksudo really really should steal focus
16:24:01 <ais523> (it stealing focus and the user not expecting it is annoying, the other way round is insecure)
16:24:15 <elliott> ais523: technically, it should steal focus and then not focus the password field
16:24:35 <elliott> or a malicious program could time a gksudo to start right before you enter your email password or whatever
16:24:40 <elliott> and hope that it's the same as your system password
16:24:59 <ais523> gksudo takes a while to start, it'd have to time it quite accurately
16:25:20 <elliott> it's also very noticeable, so I doubt it's a very plausible exlpoit :P
16:25:48 <elliott> actually, not focusing the password field doesn't solve that
16:25:55 <elliott> in case your email password field is in the centre of the screen
16:26:07 <elliott> it should steal focus, freeze for a second or two, and then focus the password field
16:26:16 <elliott> i bet openbsd gksudo does that
16:26:40 <ais523> and randomize how long it freezes for
16:27:16 <ais523> with a cryptosure randomizer
16:27:23 <elliott> ais523: hmm, this means that optimising gksudo could cause a security exploit
16:27:28 <elliott> thanks to making that attack more practical
16:28:18 <elliott> aaargh, why is this so addictive
16:28:30 <ais523> why is what so addictive?
16:29:04 <elliott> Stack Overflow; I joined yesterday to ask a git question and have somehow amassed 313 reputation since
16:30:23 <Ngevd> elliott, you are good at answering other people's questions.
16:30:29 <Ngevd> Consider making a talk show
16:30:43 <ais523> I actually went and uninstalled Dungeons of Dredmor, then deleted the .deb
16:30:53 <ais523> I can redownload it, but that requires effort and an Internet connection
16:31:31 <ais523> because it's addictive in an MMO sort of way
16:31:56 <ais523> after being awake for 23 hours continuously, almost all of which were playing games
16:32:09 <elliott> ais523: incidentally, how does scapegoat handle http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8500282/git-merging-changes-after-branching-before-a-revert?
16:32:11 <ais523> it is basically a single-player MMO in terms of game design…
16:32:25 <elliott> I would say "hopefully better than git", but I don't blame git for handling a really, really stupid user imperfectly
16:32:48 <ais523> elliott: pull everything but the revert; if it can't automatically be resolved, you get a conflict
16:33:01 <elliott> ais523: hey, you're not allowed to answer based on the url
16:33:04 <elliott> it's more complex than that
16:33:07 <ais523> elliott: I'm reading the page
16:33:30 <elliott> ais523: wouldn't future merges pull in the revert too?
16:33:34 <ais523> elliott: that's an example of my "simplest thing git can't do" example
16:33:49 <elliott> since it's part of master but not restructure, and ergo should be pulled in
16:33:55 <ais523> elliott: no, you have to pull in all changes explicitly or implicitly; you can choose to not pull a dependency and then you get a conflict
16:33:58 <elliott> ais523: oh, git can definitely do what you said
16:34:10 <ais523> so you define tip as "all changes in master except change X"
16:34:13 <elliott> I even did that, with git cherry-pick
16:34:16 <ais523> actually, even darcs can do that
16:34:39 <ais523> although I think it just refuses to merge, rather than giving a conflict, if you leave out a dependency
16:34:54 <ais523> wait, you asked that question?
16:35:26 <ais523> "Yeah, I tried this before, and it does bring the right changes over to restructure, but after trying to merge things back into master (just locally, to check that the cherry-picking hadn't broken anything), everything seemed to fall apart even more than previously." -- simplest thing git can't do
16:35:33 <ais523> elliott: yes, in a way
16:35:44 <ais523> I vaguely forgot you weren't Adeon
16:36:00 <elliott> ais523: well, it didn't fall apart due to the cherry-picks, IIRC, but I don't remember exactly
16:36:12 <ais523> probably the best NetHack realtime speedrunner in the world
16:36:22 <elliott> err, that sounds... relevant?
16:36:53 <ais523> well, we once figured out it was him who got a record because he was insufficiently annoyed when the fact that his record had been broken by someone anonymous came to light
16:37:18 <elliott> I'm still not seeing the relevance, mind you
16:37:38 <ais523> well, it's the way you were talking about the author
16:37:59 <elliott> I wouldn't call someone /else/ who asked that really, really stupid
16:38:20 <elliott> that's reserved for, umm, I can't think of anything VCS-related you could do to earn that title
16:38:47 <elliott> ais523: I assumed "I joined yesterday to ask a git question" made it obvious :P
16:40:59 <elliott> I should probably switch to xmonad today, or I never will
16:42:47 <ais523> why today in particular?
16:43:27 <Ngevd> Tomorrow they remove the letter "m" from the alphabet
16:43:36 <elliott> ais523: because I decided to yesterday
16:47:37 -!- Taneb has joined.
16:47:39 <elliott> ais523: (that makes sense, right?)
16:47:56 <ais523> no if you've ever decided to use xmonad in the past and not acted on it, though
16:48:20 <ais523> wow, Montclair State University has just sued Oracle for extortion
16:48:53 <ais523> is a university large enough to successfully sue Oracle, I wonder?
16:51:38 -!- Ngevd has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
16:55:17 <ais523> elliott: what's that meant to do?
16:55:40 <ais523> nothing visible in channel, at least
16:55:46 <ais523> does it do anything via PM/PN/DCC?
16:57:57 <elliott> "The people in #haskell channel kept tolding me things that don't go." --zzo38, in these logs i'm gepping
16:58:20 <ais523> "tolding" sounds like a time travel verb
17:00:24 <Gregor> "Toading" sounds like a sexual perversion in the Mushroom Kingdom.
17:00:37 <itidus21> the unabomber should destroy both oracle and montclair
17:00:38 -!- cswords has joined.
17:01:03 <Gregor> Uh oh, somebody in Indiana.
17:01:13 <Gregor> You know what they say about people in Indiana! Not much actually.
17:01:41 <ais523> meanwhile, it seems that And Yet It Moves actually has an achievement called Gregor
17:02:02 <Gregor> ais523: Gregor is the greatest of all achievements. Many hope to achieve Gregor, few succeed.
17:02:14 <ais523> well, I achieved it reasonably easily
17:02:23 <ais523> (it's for doing five levels in limited rotations mode)
17:02:36 <ais523> perhaps it's a different Gregor
17:03:00 <cswords> I'm a PL grad student in CS at IU Bloomington, if that gets me any street cred.
17:03:08 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
17:03:11 <Gregor> cswords: Uh oh, I think we're supposed to fight now.
17:03:22 <Gregor> cswords: 'cuz I'm a PL grad student in CS at Purdue West Lafayette :P
17:03:32 <ais523> meh, just do what I do when I come across someone from Manchester
17:03:40 <ais523> which is to ineffectually trade a couple of insults then get bored
17:03:45 <cswords> My school has a Dan Friedman and a Kent Dybvig. Can I harness those?
17:04:01 <Gregor> cswords: My school has RCS and ... aww fuck.
17:04:50 <cswords> You guys recently got Amal, right?
17:04:56 <ais523> hey, RCS was good for its time
17:05:34 <Gregor> ais523: I'm just making hyukjokes here :P
17:06:33 <ais523> hmm, UK media are starting to cover the US election, now
17:06:35 <ais523> what's it like over there?
17:07:00 <Gregor> ais523: The republican primaries are even more of a zoo than they usually are.
17:07:11 <ais523> what do you mean by "zoo"?
17:07:12 <Gregor> ais523: And the democrats are basically standing back going "... dafuq"
17:07:20 <Gregor> ais523: Where do I even begin.
17:07:25 <cswords> The republicans have chosen a bunch of crazies to run.
17:07:40 <Gregor> ais523: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PAJNntoRgA Here's one contender
17:07:51 <cswords> "We're never going to beat Obama. Let's just run one of those people we've been promising for decades because there's never a chance he'll win."
17:07:57 <ais523> Gregor: go for it anyway, I know that the US election process probably /is/ as crazy as the UK media makes it look, but still find it hard to believe
17:08:15 <ais523> I actually think Biden was the sanest Republican candidate there's been for a while
17:08:29 <cswords> Also, I lived in Texas for a long while. I would never, ever vote for Rick Perry.
17:08:48 <ais523> he actually became noticeably crazier while campaiging for the election, then back to normal after Obama won
17:08:51 <cswords> Joe Biden, the guy currentl in office as a democrat?
17:09:07 <ais523> I get confused easily between American politicans
17:09:36 <ais523> (presumably the same happens in reverse: how many Americans here know the deputy prime minister of the UK?)
17:09:43 <cswords> George McBush and Alaska Spice, you mean?
17:09:47 <Gregor> So who's still really in the running? I guess Mitt Romney and .... Mitt Romney.
17:09:53 <Gregor> cswords: "Alaska Spice" X-D
17:10:02 <cswords> Yeah, Mitt Romney is pretty much the only sane one.
17:10:12 <ais523> but that's not a case of knowing it
17:10:15 <Gregor> As republicans this year go, he's quite sane.
17:10:26 <Gregor> That doesn't make him especially sane, because it's a very biased polling group.
17:10:27 <ais523> Gregor: ooh, I've even heard of him
17:10:57 <cswords> I just want to beat politicians with sticks.
17:11:00 <cswords> I feel like it would be more productive.
17:11:12 <ais523> come to think of it, most UKians probably couldn't name the leader of the opposition at the moment
17:11:15 <Gregor> ais523: Herman Cain was a "major" candidate for a while. He was the CEO of a pizza chain and quoted an "anonymous poet" when he was actually quoting the theme of the Pokemon 2000 movie.
17:11:32 <ais523> Gregor: well, does Pokémon 2000 have its poet credited?
17:11:36 <ais523> if not, it's done by an anonymous poet
17:11:36 <Taneb> ais523, Ed whatshisname with the brother
17:11:53 <ais523> I know it's one of the Millibands, but can't remember which
17:11:53 <Gregor> ais523: It's not a secret, and it's not poetry, it's a piece of shitty music that's the theme to a movie :P
17:12:07 <Taneb> And I know it's one of the Eds
17:12:10 <ais523> let's see… the way to remember it is that there's two Eds and two Millibands
17:12:14 <ais523> so we just take the intersection?
17:12:18 <ais523> that's a surprisingly simple mnemonic
17:12:27 <Taneb> It's not Harriet Harman
17:12:37 <itidus21> just remember it doesn't matter who wins
17:12:51 <ais523> itidus21: in the US, or the UK?
17:12:56 <ais523> in the UK it generally does matter
17:12:57 <cswords> Honestly, that pokemon thing was probably just his script writer messing with him.
17:13:08 <Gregor> Frankly I think the funniest wannabe-contender is Santorum. He honestly couldn't even get into the runnings because his name means "the frothy mix of lube and feces that is sometimes an unintended result of anal sex"
17:13:40 <ais523> itidus21: you get occasionally noticeable third-or-subsequent-party wins in the UK
17:13:44 <itidus21> ais523: i doubt that it matters in any meaningful sense
17:13:58 <ais523> and noticeable effects on the resulting policy too, especially on Europe
17:14:17 <ais523> it's even possible that Scotland will referendum about independence some time soon
17:14:23 <Gregor> cswords: You can see we talk about esoteric programming a lot here.
17:14:31 <ais523> after the results of the last election
17:14:38 <Gregor> OHHHH, CS words? Not C-Swords? Or both?
17:14:39 <ais523> Gregor: hey, can't political bribery be considered an esolang?
17:14:50 <ais523> Gregor: I was wondering that myself, I saw both expansions pretty quickly
17:14:51 <Taneb> We should make an esolang about European politics
17:14:52 <Gregor> ais523: Too mainstream :P
17:15:17 <ais523> Taneb: of the EU government in particular? or the various member states?
17:15:18 <Taneb> And I was too busy trying to figure out what "csw" meant
17:15:21 <Gregor> Whois suggests it's probably C. Swords
17:15:22 <ais523> their governments aren't that similar to each other
17:15:25 <Taneb> ais523, europe as a whole
17:15:37 <Taneb> With all the minutuae
17:15:47 <Taneb> Right down to the councillor for Hexham East
17:15:50 <cswords> Though apparently I've been mistaken for a bot who spews CS terms.
17:16:02 <ais523> Taneb: what constituency is Hexham in, btw?
17:16:07 <ais523> is it large enough to have one for itself?
17:16:09 <Taneb> ais523, the handily named Hexham
17:16:16 <Taneb> Not large enough, remote enough
17:16:20 <ais523> indeed, that's quite a convenient name
17:16:27 <Gregor> cswords: Haha, now we know who you are!
17:16:35 <Taneb> It's one of the largest in England
17:16:36 <ais523> oh, it's the only place of note in the entire surrounding countryside, so the constituency it's in is named after it?
17:16:46 <Gregor> cswords: Although if you get a PhD, you'll be Dr. Swords, which is almost as good as my colleague Prof. Hammer
17:17:00 <Taneb> It contains the point in the UK that is furthest from a road
17:17:01 <cswords> That's part of why I'm working on my PhD.
17:17:11 <cswords> I can become a supervillain without even changing my name.
17:17:17 <Taneb> If I had a PhD, I'd sound like a supervillain almost as much
17:17:21 <Taneb> With a little keming
17:17:33 <Gregor> Dr. Richards. BORING NAME. *sobblecopter*
17:18:07 <ais523> hmm, I couldn't become a supervillain without changing my name, but not because of the name
17:18:12 <ais523> I'm just not cut out to be a supervillain :(
17:18:41 <itidus21> you're the margarine of evil, the diet coke of evil
17:19:14 <Taneb> I think he's closer to the Ghandi of evil
17:19:16 <ais523> I'd probably be pretty bad even as a subvillain, to be fair
17:19:22 <Taneb> That is, not even evil
17:20:06 <Taneb> Actually, if I got a PhD, I think Marvel could have a could try at a lawsuit against me
17:20:27 <Gregor> Taneb: We don't know your surname :P
17:21:08 <itidus21> i live on the roof of the forum cinema in hexham
17:21:09 <ais523> there are also three esolangers there: elliott, Taneb, and we don't know of the existence of the third but I'm claiming they exist now in order to be able to go "see? I was right" later
17:21:37 <Taneb> itidus21, I reckon you're closer to spoon's roof
17:21:50 <Gregor> ais523: Obviously itidus21
17:22:03 <Gregor> elliott: A /legit/ new person. Not locking us in a matrix of solidity or anything.
17:22:05 <ais523> elliott: the funny thing is, I expected they'd probably been here before but `?welcomed them anyway
17:22:10 <itidus21> it sure is a small little hamlet
17:22:13 <ais523> see, my plan paid off!
17:22:58 <elliott> Gregor: Then who is going to lock us in our matrix of solidity? :/
17:23:10 <itidus21> I can be found in Gallowsbank Wood...
17:23:10 <Taneb> itidus21, Dilston is a hamlet. Lowgate is a hamlet. /Fellside/ is a hamlet. Hexham is a TOWN godammit!
17:23:26 <Gregor> elliott: Don't worry, we'll ALWAYS be locked in a matrix of solidity. We lock it ourselves.
17:23:58 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
17:24:04 -!- Vorpal has joined.
17:24:07 <elliott> <itidus21> hexham is full of idiots
17:24:12 <cswords> I wsa here earlier this morning.
17:24:17 <Gregor> Because every new person has to go "huh?" and then try to hack the bot.
17:24:30 <ais523> Gregor: also, every old person?
17:24:32 <elliott> cswords: oh, thanks for reminding me I haven't logread yet
17:24:43 <cswords> How does it handle forkbombs?
17:24:44 * elliott will defer it until there isn't innocent newbies around.
17:24:53 <ais523> cswords: they just vanish after a while
17:24:56 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
17:25:12 <elliott> ais523: they vanish a lot quicker than that; ulimits
17:25:19 <elliott> <Gregor> ais523: Herman Cain was a "major" candidate for a while. He was the CEO of a pizza chain and quoted an "anonymous poet" when he was actually quoting the theme of the Pokemon 2000 movie.
17:25:19 <elliott> <Gregor> ais523: It's not a secret, and it's not poetry, it's a piece of shitty music that's the theme to a movie :P
17:25:30 <elliott> Gregor: Hey, I want to live in a world where major political candidates quote the theme to the Pokemon 2000 movie.
17:25:31 <ais523> now I'm trying to remember if I've watched Pokémon 2000
17:25:37 <elliott> cswords: Well, maybe a guilty newbie.
17:25:39 <ais523> what was the plot about? I've watched exactly two Pokémon movies, I Think
17:25:48 <Taneb> cswords, I was probably the most innocent newbie here
17:25:57 <elliott> We corrupted Taneb in, like, a day.
17:26:00 <Taneb> ais523, I've seen the first one, and the one with Celebi in it
17:26:06 <HackEgo> 200) <Gregor> elliott: My university has two Poultry Science buildings. <Gregor> Two! \ 297) <Phantom__Hoover> Gregor, yeah, but Purdue has poultry science facilities beyond the dreams of avarice.
17:26:12 <elliott> cswords: How many poultry science buildings does /your/ university have?
17:26:31 <ais523> elliott: I'm not aware that mine has any
17:26:33 <Taneb> cswords, I will now transform into my other alias!
17:26:38 -!- Taneb has changed nick to Ngevd.
17:26:39 <cswords> http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1_____enUS420US420&gcx=c&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=IU+bloomington+poultry+science Looks line none.
17:26:39 <ais523> but it has quite a lot of buildings, so it's possible I just haven't found one yet
17:26:43 <coppro> ais523: it's the one with lugia nd the three islands
17:26:44 <HackEgo> S~v8.y[$V&.F..m*`uޱsu#͔کף.Th.U.>-.i*.5eu6*q]q.ŕmL.#y.:VjĎNPH:'.V[OK+v.Z9ɚM*ԽH.k*Q]ia/]95rFԴ.W( B..?.^}]mM
17:26:49 <Gregor> Oy vey, we go CRAZY when there are new people.
17:26:49 <coppro> one of the three I've seen
17:27:01 <ais523> coppro: with the first gen legendary bird trio key to the plot?
17:27:07 <ais523> in that case, I have watched it
17:27:08 <elliott> Gregor: Um, we haven't even introduced the other bots yet?? We can get way crazier.
17:27:11 <cswords> Gah, I have to study for this final at 5.
17:27:12 <elliott> cswords: Say hi to fungot!
17:27:12 <fungot> elliott: so i can unroll the loops it's always shorter than the other
17:27:21 <cswords> It's on type inferencing and logic programming :()
17:27:24 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
17:27:32 <Ngevd> > "I can do Haskell!"
17:27:32 <ais523> cswords: ooh, type inference
17:27:51 <elliott> !c printf("And nobody loves me.\n");
17:27:56 <cswords> ais523, it's written in miniKanren...
17:27:59 <ais523> coppro: I always thought those diagrams which changed colour to show the balance of power between the birds would make a good board game, but never figured out how
17:28:08 <elliott> cswords: Kanren! Didn't Oleg do that?
17:28:13 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
17:28:16 <ais523> hmm, I've never heard of Kanren
17:28:17 <Ngevd> ^ul (I have no idea if this will work)S
17:28:17 <fungot> I have no idea if this will work
17:28:20 <cswords> (Dan's teaching the class.)
17:28:23 <ais523> now, elliott will mock me for never having heard of it
17:28:31 <cswords> ais523, it's a logic programming language embedded in Scheme.
17:28:34 <Ngevd> fungot does underload and brainfuck(?), too
17:28:34 * elliott has only ever seen Kanren referenced on Oleg's site.
17:28:34 <fungot> Ngevd: what can we do it your way since it's your lang). xd.
17:28:39 <elliott> And knows almost nothing about it.
17:28:45 <elliott> hmm, how do you continue a /me on another line?
17:28:48 <ais523> elliott: err what, that's out of character for you
17:28:55 <elliott> both /me and /msg seem inadequate
17:28:58 <ais523> Ngevd: yep, underload/bf
17:29:01 <elliott> we need a /me... or something
17:29:05 <cswords> elliott, http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp?ttype=2&tid=10663 Dan's teaching the class and Will is a guy I play starcraft with.
17:29:11 <ais523> elliott: definitely /msg is better than /me, although I agree it isn't perfect
17:29:29 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: acro aol austro bc bct bfbignum brit brooklyn bypass_ignore bytes chaos chiqrsx9p choo cpick ctcp dc decide drawl drome dubya echo ehird elmer fudd glogbot_ignore google graph hello helloworld id insanetemp jethro kraut lperl lsh map monqy num numberwang ook pansy pi pikhq ping pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler prefixes python redneck reverse rimshot rot13 rot47 sadbf sanetemp sfedeesh sffedeesh simplename slashes svedeesh sw
17:29:33 <elliott> cswords: Oh no, not another Starcraft player.
17:29:46 <ais523> elliott: it's quite common
17:29:58 <Ngevd> That's almost as many as there are Hexhamites in here!
17:29:59 <cswords> I was up to platinum back in March, but my thesis and grad school have been eating my skills.
17:30:03 <elliott> (How long until the bloody Starcraft/Homestuck #esoteric civil war of 2012 begins?)
17:30:10 <elliott> (Or the Hexham/Helsinki war, I suppose.)
17:30:24 <Gregor> elliott: That ... that is an unlikely war in the real world :P
17:30:35 <elliott> cswords: A very long webcomic.
17:30:42 <Ngevd> Very short, too, in a way
17:30:43 <ais523> Vorpal: this is probably a bad conversation to appear in the middle of
17:30:43 <itidus21> i wonder what properties of hexham inspire esolang
17:30:44 <elliott> Gregor: Good thing this is IRC, then!
17:30:53 <ais523> elliott: it's nowhere near as long as Mezzacotta
17:31:05 <Gregor> How 'bout Minecraft? We can get the TRIFECTA
17:31:21 <elliott> Gregor: The Minecrafters seceded like a year ago, dude!
17:31:34 <ais523> cswords: a town in the UK
17:31:35 <cswords> All attempts to google it end poorly.
17:31:37 <elliott> cswords: A considerably shorter webcomic in Finland.
17:31:39 <ais523> which is /just/ large enough for me to have heard of it
17:31:55 <elliott> Helsinki is a Hexham-based RTS game with population ~10k.
17:31:58 <ais523> elliott currently lives there, so does Ngevd
17:32:10 <Ngevd> It seems the two most popular places for esolangers to live are Hexham and Helsinki
17:32:29 <Ngevd> I tried to get a friend into esolanging
17:32:34 <Ngevd> But he lives in Corbridge...
17:32:57 <cswords> So, for the exam, I need to know Monads (mostly just state and reader), type inferencing, logic programming (converting to, reading and explaining output).
17:33:02 * elliott will never ally with a despicable Corbdigea... Corbridigia... Corbri... I give up.
17:33:03 <Vorpal> <ais523> Vorpal: this is probably a bad conversation to appear in the middle of <-- okay, I just wanted to check for lambdabot messages really
17:33:18 <elliott> cswords: Not just type inference but type inferen/cing/?
17:33:29 <ais523> Vorpal: #haskell would have been safer
17:33:31 <lambdabot> Vorpal: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
17:33:36 <Gregor> cswords: Dude, in #esoteric the 13-yr-olds know those. Ba-dum tish.
17:33:43 <Ngevd> elliott, you want "Corstopitan"
17:34:06 <Vorpal> ais523, really? I'm kind of busy and not about to really join into the discussion, but why is it a bad conversation to appear in the middle of?
17:34:15 <Ngevd> They use Latin when available and not stupid
17:34:16 <ais523> too much context required
17:34:26 <Ngevd> Like "Oxonian" and "Novacastrian"
17:34:53 <ais523> cswords: what do you mean by "logic programming"? I'm pretty sure I know what it is, but am unsure at how to expan that name for it
17:35:08 <ais523> elliott: just try with Birmingham, it doesn't work
17:35:24 <ais523> I thought that's what it meant, but it didn't seem to make sense in context
17:35:28 <cswords> I wouldn't say Kanren is much like Prolog, to be honest.
17:35:32 <elliott> ais523: That's easy, residents of Birmingham are referred to as "bums"
17:35:37 <coppro> ais523: birminghamiltonian
17:36:35 <elliott> (diff) (hist) . . Language list; 09:06 . . (+215) . . 149.255.39.58 (Talk) (That's fine for the House and Senate but for president, there is no way any conservative should vote for either Democrat that will be stuffed down our throats next year. The House is the grand prize.)
17:36:39 <elliott> What a good spam edit summary.
17:37:24 <coppro> dammit now I have the song from pokemon 2000 stuck in my head
17:37:36 <ais523> elliott: well, it's not like I can protect the language list
17:37:40 <ais523> I can, but it'd be pointless
17:37:45 <ais523> or rather, counterproductive
17:37:49 <Gregor> So glad I never watched a Pookieman movie.
17:37:49 <elliott> ais523: I didn't tell you to :P
17:37:54 <Gregor> Or had any of the games.
17:38:01 <Gregor> Or could name more than two Pookiemans.
17:38:04 <coppro> Gregor: Watching at least two is mandatory
17:38:14 <elliott> Gregor: Uhh, but do you not, to quote an anonymous poet, wanna be the very best, like no-one ever was?
17:38:18 <ais523> I'd expect you to have at least one in short-term memory as it was mentioned earlier
17:38:21 <Ngevd> Gregor, I named a Pokemon after you!
17:38:27 <Gregor> ais523: Pikachu and Squirtle (if I'm spelling that right)
17:38:27 <Ngevd> It's now a Kirlia!
17:38:34 <elliott> Gregor: Not even Bulbasaur?
17:38:36 <ais523> Gregor: indeed you are
17:38:46 <coppro> Gregor: The games are also awesome
17:38:49 <Gregor> elliott: I know that names one, but I couldn't associate it with the actual Pookieman.
17:39:01 <ais523> you know, some day there'll be someone who says "I only know one/two Pokémon", then names a really obscure one rather than one of the starters
17:39:13 <Gregor> elliott: Then it should be Angryliefturtlemon :P
17:39:15 <ais523> elliott: hey, it doesn't get leaves until it evolves to Ivysaur
17:39:20 <ais523> Gregor: but that's /Digimon/'s naming scheme!
17:39:29 <Ngevd> Tropius and Luvdisc
17:39:42 <elliott> <ais523> you know, some day there'll be someone who says "I only know one/two Pokémon", then names a really obscure one rather than one of the starters
17:39:49 <elliott> ais523: How many Pokemon games until everyone forgets the original starters?
17:39:51 <coppro> are we now having a Most Obscure Pokemon Naming Challenge?
17:39:55 <Ngevd> But yeah, I'm stuck on Petalburg gym
17:39:58 <Vorpal> hm I actually played a bit of a pokemon game, yet I can only name Pikachu and Magikarp
17:40:05 <Vorpal> I don't remember the names of any other ones
17:40:07 <ais523> elliott: infinity, they keep plowing on the original starters for marketing value even when they aren't actually in the game
17:40:12 <cswords> Well it was nice to meet you people! I'm gonna idle here, but disappear to coerce knowledge into my head.
17:40:16 <ais523> Vorpal: well, Magikarp isn't a starter
17:40:27 <Vorpal> ais523, I just remember it being bloody useless
17:40:28 <Ngevd> Imagine if it was!
17:40:35 <elliott> I have prepared to war with you depending on the answer.
17:40:36 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway neither was Pikachu iirc in that game
17:40:44 <Gregor> What other popular things do I know nothing about ...
17:40:45 <Vorpal> ais523, it was some GBA one. Don't remember which.
17:40:48 <ais523> Vorpal: Pikachu's a starter in Pokémon Yellow
17:40:59 <ais523> which was based on the plot of the anime
17:41:04 <ais523> (it's the game of the anime of the game…)
17:41:06 <Vorpal> I think it might have been emerald or something like that?
17:41:10 <Vorpal> that I played a bit of
17:41:22 <Ngevd> elliott, I'm left wing anti-unionist. And Emerald is Green. The last Lib Dem Pokemon game was Heart Gold, and before the Gold, and before that, Yellow Pikachu Special
17:41:24 <ais523> Vorpal: well, Magikarp is not a starter in any game
17:41:27 <ais523> because it's /Magikarp/
17:41:46 <elliott> Ngevd: Pokemon politics are so confusing.
17:41:50 <elliott> ais523: Magikarp would be the best starter.
17:41:53 <coppro> obligatory: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ye7b3bOQ6lY
17:41:54 <ais523> Vorpal: it'd have been Ruby/Sapphire/Emerald
17:41:56 <elliott> Pokemon Horrific Crippling Failure
17:42:10 <ais523> elliott: well, it /is/ possible to complete the game without your starter being able to deal damage
17:42:12 <Vorpal> ais523, I think the bad guys were "team magma" or something like that
17:42:30 <coppro> I love the newest pokedex text for magikarp
17:42:34 <ais523> that was genuinely the missing piece of information, as one of the few things that varies between third-gen games
17:42:40 <Ngevd> Vorpal, or Emerald, but that had team Aqua as villains, too
17:42:44 <ais523> coppro: what is it? (and is it the same in black and white?)
17:43:08 <coppro> ais523: It's the same as one of the earlier ones. Basically "It can use Splash to jump over a mountain, but the move is still entirely useless."
17:43:14 <coppro> and yeah, it's the same between games
17:43:25 <Vorpal> Ngevd, how could I tell which one from a vague recollection of playing a few hours of a game I found rather repetitive.
17:43:46 <ais523> Vorpal: were you playing on someone else's completed game? or on a new game file?
17:43:46 <Vorpal> I mean sure, it was fun for the first hour or two. But then it was just more and more of the same stuff.
17:43:57 <Vorpal> ais523, I think I was playing in an emulator. And new game
17:44:22 <ais523> one problem with the Pokémon games is that they've mostly gotten easier over time
17:44:24 <Ngevd> What colour was your character's headthingy band
17:44:27 <ais523> with the result that there isn't a whole lot of skill in it any more
17:44:31 <Gregor> ais523: Sort of like all other games?
17:44:45 <ais523> Ngevd: that varies between third-gen games?
17:44:47 <coppro> ais523: I always felt that RSE was the worst for difficulty
17:44:47 <elliott> Gregor: "Games are sooo easy" -- person who doesn't play any games
17:44:54 <Vorpal> ais523, I do believe I got near some sort of temple or something with really hard guys at the very right side of the map before I got too bored and stopped playing.
17:44:55 <Ngevd> ais523, between R/S and E
17:45:07 <Gregor> elliott: Back in my day, I didn't have to walk with a cane, but I couldn't shake it at kids on my lawn either!
17:45:08 <Ngevd> ais523, R/S is red, E is green
17:45:08 <ais523> also, you're assuming that Vorpal was playing as Brendon rather than as May
17:45:12 <coppro> ais523: maybe I'm just bad, but the final fights in BW were a pain, and then the postgame does a massive difficulty spike
17:45:13 <elliott> `addquote <Gregor> elliott: Back in my day, I didn't have to walk with a cane, but I couldn't shake it at kids on my lawn either!
17:45:13 <ais523> which is probably quite a safe guess
17:45:15 <HackEgo> 763) <Gregor> elliott: Back in my day, I didn't have to walk with a cane, but I couldn't shake it at kids on my lawn either!
17:45:29 <ais523> Ngevd: err, I thought Brendon's headband was white?
17:45:29 <elliott> Vorpal: what answer do you expect to that question?
17:45:41 <Ngevd> ais523, his hair was, his headband wasn't?
17:45:49 <ais523> Ngevd: aha, that could have been it
17:45:49 <Vorpal> elliott, well, could you select gender or name or something? I don't remember.
17:45:56 <ais523> Vorpal: you can select gender
17:46:12 <ais523> Brendon and May are the canon names for the male and female characters that aren't just "Ruby" and "Sapphire"
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17:46:44 <Vorpal> ais523, well I /probably/ played as a guy.
17:46:52 <Vorpal> <Ngevd> What colour was your character's headthingy band <-- you think I could remember that?
17:47:10 <Ngevd> Well, if you remember a temple...
17:47:19 <Vorpal> or something like that
17:47:29 <Vorpal> might not have actually been called a temple
17:47:33 <Ngevd> Probably not the oceanic museum
17:47:45 <Ngevd> Probably not the volcano
17:47:50 <ais523> hmm, have there been /any/ temples in Pokémon?
17:48:01 <ais523> Ngevd: definitely, agreed
17:48:05 <Vorpal> Ngevd, oh some sort of museum with somewhat educational signs in it sounds familiar now that you mention it
17:48:07 <itidus21> elliott: game difficulty is perhaps the greatest allure of the game... how exactly a game comes to be difficult
17:48:09 <Vorpal> I think there was such a thing
17:48:12 <elliott> oh no, I might have to abort this logread
17:48:16 <ais523> in the main games, Spear Pillar probably counts, so does that Sinjoh event place in HeartGold/SoulSilver
17:48:32 <Ngevd> And the church in one of the cities in Pearl/Diamond
17:48:40 <ais523> Ngevd: but that's a church
17:48:41 <coppro> ais523: The Regigigas temple
17:48:44 <Vorpal> <ais523> hmm, have there been /any/ temples in Pokémon? <-- I don't know what it was actually called. Final dungeon? Whatever.
17:48:44 <ais523> does that count as a temple
17:48:56 <ais523> coppro: right, indeed, definitely; "Snowpoint Temple", I forgot about that
17:48:57 <Vorpal> It just reminded me of a temple, that was all
17:49:09 <ais523> Vorpal: the final dungeon is Victory Road in every Pokémon game so far
17:49:15 <ais523> in no game has it even vaguely resembled a temple
17:49:35 <coppro> BW had a great Victory Road
17:49:39 <Vorpal> Ngevd, at some point in the game yes. There was also some water at in a lake or something :P
17:49:39 <Ngevd> ais523, Leaf Green and Fire Red, it did a bit
17:49:43 <ais523> (note: it's /called/ Victory Road in each game, but is different in each)
17:49:57 <Vorpal> <ais523> in no game has it even vaguely resembled a temple <-- so my memory might be off then.
17:50:04 <ais523> coppro: hmm, all of them are pretty good
17:50:08 <Ngevd> Could it be Mt. Pyre?
17:50:20 <ais523> Ngevd: Vorpal said the bosses were to the right
17:50:23 <coppro> ais523: I found RBY's to be a bit annoying
17:50:25 <ais523> in Mt. Pyre, they're upwards
17:50:26 -!- Ngevd has quit (Quit: Goodbye).
17:50:38 <ais523> coppro: RBY had the best puzzles
17:50:46 <Vorpal> well we know it was sapphire or emerald I guess
17:50:48 <elliott> ais523: is Pokemon Blite/Whack worth playing?
17:50:50 <ais523> and the Victory Road puzzle is quite a good one
17:51:00 <Vorpal> and does it really matter which one?
17:51:05 <coppro> I was especially annoyed by the last gym
17:51:06 <ais523> elliott: it's not as good as some of the other Pokémon games, but it's still quite good
17:51:12 <coppro> which the NPCs keep talking about as if it's a real headscratcher
17:51:13 <ais523> it's extremely linear, unlike most of the others
17:51:17 <elliott> ais523: the only other one I've played is Sapphire
17:51:19 <coppro> you only have one direction to go
17:51:35 <ais523> and it's /literally/ linear, in that the accessible-before-endgame world map is literally topologically equivalent to a line
17:51:48 <ais523> except Anville Town, but it's intended for competitive players and most other players don't spot it at all on their first run through
17:51:54 <coppro> HG/SS are definitely the best
17:52:30 <ais523> elliott: Black/White are pretty streamlined and low on annoyances, anyway
17:52:40 <coppro> after that, probably the original G/S
17:52:56 <ais523> it has the look about it of a game in an established series that isn't trying to annoy anyone and isn't trying to do anything vastly amazing and new
17:53:00 <coppro> I really enjoyed FR/LG too, probably above B/W
17:53:00 <ais523> most of the innovations are in the graphics
17:53:12 <coppro> D/P are the worst in my opinion
17:53:31 <ais523> perhaps if you ignore the battle system
17:53:34 <elliott> ais523: hmm, I might play it if DS emulation is good enough; I probably don't care enough to play it on a physical DS
17:53:41 <coppro> ais523: What would you say is the worst?
17:53:49 <ais523> elliott: Black/White have anti-emulator code, although it's probably been patched around by now
17:54:00 <ais523> coppro: well, I haven't actually played FR/LG
17:54:16 <Vorpal> anyway there are two major problems I have with the pokemon games: 1) to me they get repetitive after a few hours 2) Nintendo released multiple versions of the same game basically. I mean, the difference between red/green, sapphire/ruby are basically just that a different team are the bad guys. Sure it is cheaper for nintendo, but I don't think it is fair towards the buyers really
17:54:17 <ais523> they're all good in different ways
17:54:26 <ais523> R/B hasn't held up all too well with time, I think
17:54:28 <elliott> you buy one and exactly one of them
17:54:37 <ais523> although all the glitches that have been discovered since make it fun just for that
17:54:38 <elliott> so the buyers end up paying... um, the exact same amount as they would
17:54:54 <coppro> RBY don't have the improvements in interface that started around 3rd gen
17:55:19 <ais523> coppro: well, HGSS wins on interface, hands down
17:55:35 <coppro> it's kind of annoying to me that they didn't bring the good features back
17:55:36 <Vorpal> elliott, right, and then you miss out on content from the other game. They could just have put both stories in the same game with a selection at the start. The difference are rather small from what I understand.
17:55:41 <ais523> it's the AceHack to gold/silver
17:55:42 <elliott> Vorpal: there is no content from the other game
17:55:43 <coppro> you could play HGSS without the ABXY buttons
17:55:48 <elliott> Vorpal: apart from one pokemon and like
17:56:06 <elliott> if you have one game, you can mathematically derive the other one
17:56:07 <Vorpal> elliott, to me, story is important
17:56:15 <coppro> Vorpal: Emerald's is better anyway
17:56:15 <ais523> coppro: the explanation to that is that multiple Pokémon games are developed at once
17:56:16 <elliott> Vorpal: the stories are literally identical, you just s/word/inverse/
17:56:29 <ais523> e.g. Diamond and Pearl and FireRed/LeafGreen were being developed at the same time
17:56:34 <Vorpal> elliott, and different enemy base maps and such.
17:56:36 <elliott> sapphire: team magma want to get rid of water!!! ruby: team aqua want to get rid of land!!!
17:56:39 <ais523> I don't know for a fact that that's true with HGSS/BW, but it wouldn't surprise me at all
17:56:42 <elliott> Vorpal: not to my knowledge
17:56:47 <coppro> Hopefully Gy will have the non-suck interface from HGSS
17:56:49 <ais523> Vorpal: the enemy base maps are the same
17:56:57 <coppro> What really frustrates me about BW is the inconsistency
17:57:06 <elliott> also, anyone who cares most about story is going to be incredibly disappointed by the pokemon games :P
17:57:16 <coppro> There are menus where you can't use the touch screen, and menus where you can't use the buttons
17:57:19 <ais523> elliott: hmm, they've actually made an effort with the story in BW
17:57:19 <Vorpal> ais523, so they have to do neutral bases then, rather than theme them after the team?
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17:57:43 <Vorpal> hm is pokemon an RPG? I think it kind of is in that genre
17:57:46 <ais523> not only is it internally consistent, it's even vaguely plausible, and has something resembling plot
17:57:59 <coppro> ais523: And, most importantly, emotional investment
17:58:02 <Vorpal> well then, how can you say story is not important
17:58:04 <coppro> I found myself feeling sorry for N by the end of it
17:58:07 <ais523> coppro: meh, I ignore that
17:58:20 <ais523> you can feel sorry for N, but if you think about it, the ending treats him pretty well
17:58:38 <elliott> "His full name was revealed to be Natural Harmonia Gropius"
17:58:46 <Vorpal> elliott, sure, but story is kind of important to them. Much more so than many other genres.
17:59:04 <coppro> ais523: It certainly does; that doesn't mean I can't feel sorry for his history
17:59:06 <ais523> in that his actions throughout most of the game can be interpreted as an attempt to find out the truth with respect to something in particular, and at the end, he actually discovers it
17:59:23 <elliott> ais523: ooh, it's spoiler-free spoiler communication
17:59:32 * elliott tries to deduce the spoilers involved through pure reason
17:59:54 <ais523> well, the whole point in that communication style is that you probably can figure it out if you want to, but it takes enough mental effort that you won't do it without trying
17:59:58 <coppro> ais523: /most/ of his actions can. Initially he's not; it's encountering the player that causes him to doubt himself and seek the truth
18:00:07 <coppro> (well, and everyone else. But especially the player)
18:00:21 <ais523> coppro: hmm; that's one of the possible interpretations, I'm not sure it's the only one
18:00:29 <coppro> ... goddamit I'm having a discussion about the literary qualities of a Pokemon game
18:00:34 <Vorpal> anyway there is little variation in the battles. It is just basically the same all the time. Sure there are different pokemons and leveling them up and items and different techniques and so on. But it is all just "think a bit, select action from menu"
18:00:37 <ais523> really, if half the world's electorates were anything like N, the world would be a much better place
18:00:41 <Vorpal> I don't really enjoy that sort of combat
18:00:45 <elliott> pikhq: Mr. Emulator! How good is DeSmuME?
18:00:54 <elliott> `addquote <coppro> ... goddamit I'm having a discussion about the literary qualities of a Pokemon game
18:00:57 <HackEgo> 764) <coppro> ... goddamit I'm having a discussion about the literary qualities of a Pokemon game
18:00:58 <Vorpal> elliott, fairly okay for some games at least
18:01:21 <ais523> elliott: I think desmume is what's used for researching information in Pokémon
18:01:24 <ais523> like RNG research, etc
18:01:34 <Vorpal> elliott, I think I played two games in it. Was a while ago.
18:01:36 <ais523> Black/White have DRM that attempts to detect it
18:01:46 <elliott> ais523: well, that's promising; although it might be just because it's open source, rather than an especially good emulator
18:01:47 <Vorpal> elliott, not bsnes quality, not even zsnes quality. But okay.
18:01:51 <ais523> still, if you want to play the games, you should really buy them if you think it's worth the money
18:01:54 <elliott> which makes it possibly easier to automate
18:02:05 <ais523> elliott: well, makes it easier to implement features like rerecording
18:02:33 <Vorpal> anyway I presume that future pokemon games are going to be on the 3DS?
18:02:34 <elliott> ais523: I would buy it if Nintendo would sell me ROMs
18:02:54 <elliott> but given the information I have, I don't think it'd be worth the hassle of playing it on a physical system
18:03:13 <ais523> Vorpal: not confirmed, but it seems pretty likely
18:03:24 -!- kmc has quit (Quit: Leaving).
18:03:32 <ais523> especially considering the 3DS's sales figure; Nintendo probably want to put out a Pokémon game to persuade people to buy the console
18:03:36 <Vorpal> ais523, I wonder how they will make use of the 3D technology in a pokemon game...
18:03:51 <ais523> Vorpal: Pokémon's been based on a 3D engine since Platinum?
18:03:53 <elliott> Vorpal: they've been doing that for multiple generations by now...
18:04:11 <coppro> Well the overworld has been
18:04:13 <ais523> although all the sprites are 2D
18:04:14 <itidus21> ok guys we are short on vocabulary and i am not a smart guy
18:04:21 <elliott> oh, the 3DS isn't actually a DS
18:04:31 <coppro> I think some of the battle animations are 3D as well
18:04:33 <Vorpal> ais523, first person perspective?
18:04:48 <coppro> elliott: 3DS is the successor platform
18:04:49 <ais523> coppro: seems plausible
18:04:51 <itidus21> even nintendo64 pokemon has regular 3d
18:05:00 <ais523> elliott: and it's backwards-compatible one generation, just like most Nintendo portables
18:05:09 <coppro> ais523: Well look at ones like Surf, or the Pledges
18:05:13 <ais523> at the moment, its major problem is that it doesn't have too many good games
18:05:18 <elliott> ais523: right, I was just so used to the endless DS revisions
18:05:22 <itidus21> nintendo ds was super backwards compatible
18:05:25 <elliott> that I assumed the 3DS was still basically a DS
18:05:31 <coppro> itidus21: No, it went back one gen
18:05:33 <ais523> most of the games fans I've talked to agree that Super Mario 3D Land is very good
18:05:39 <coppro> Yeah, I need to get that
18:05:43 <itidus21> DS could play original gameboy games i think
18:05:44 <ais523> itidus21: it's the GBA you're thinking of, that went all the way back to the original Game Boy
18:06:00 <ais523> coppro: whereas Mario Kart 7 is "it's a Mario Kart game; do you like those?"
18:06:05 <coppro> (Incidentally: What is with 7 that the seventh piece of software in series X gets called X 7 regardless of prior naming schemes?)
18:06:09 <coppro> ais523: True, but I do :)
18:06:17 <Vorpal> <ais523> most of the games fans I've talked to agree that Super Mario 3D Land is very good <-- well of course a mario game is going to help selling the platform
18:06:24 <ais523> reviewers have been really stuck on it
18:06:32 <elliott> <coppro> (Incidentally: What is with 7 that the seventh piece of software in series X gets called X 7 regardless of prior naming schemes?)
18:06:36 <Vorpal> I mean that is probably one of the most known game series in the world
18:06:37 <elliott> coppro: dammit, now I need to find that gif again
18:06:39 <ais523> because they can't say much about it except that it's just like the others in the series
18:06:58 <coppro> The 2D mario games that Nintendo's made over the past few years have all been very good
18:07:01 <ais523> itidus21: well, some people that I respect the opinions of (but don't always agree of) call Super Mario 3D Land the best Mario game ever
18:07:19 <Vorpal> ais523, I assume there will be/already is some zelda game for 3DS as well?
18:07:27 <ais523> Vorpal: Ocarina of Time, didn't you hear?
18:07:34 * elliott liked NSMBW but not as much as SMG; this seemingly-irrelevant comparison is made relevant by my playing them at the same time
18:07:45 <Vorpal> ais523, upgraded the graphics I hope?
18:07:49 <pikhq> elliott: DeSmuME is imperfect, but still a decent DS emulator.
18:07:50 <coppro> SMG1 was a true work of art
18:07:51 <ais523> and it's apparently the best Ocarina of Time version ever, although a little redundant if you've played the original
18:08:01 <coppro> Yeah, they fixed a bunch of flaws
18:08:02 <ais523> coppro: SM3DL is made by the SMG people
18:08:15 <coppro> SMG2 was exactly that, sadly
18:08:16 <elliott> coppro: I liked SMG2, even if it was a bit too similar, and I missed the hub world
18:08:26 <Vorpal> <ais523> and it's apparently the best Ocarina of Time version ever, although a little redundant if you've played the original <-- "best ever" out of 2?
18:08:32 <ais523> Vorpal: out of 3, I believe
18:08:33 <coppro> well and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P29JNk7945k
18:08:35 <elliott> coppro: this perception is again made relevant by my playing SMG2 like a month after SMG1
18:08:38 <Vorpal> ais523, what was the third one?
18:08:42 <itidus21> :| quick, rush out and buy uh.. (googles) phantom hourglass and spirit tracks... uhh.. go. go. go.
18:08:47 <elliott> coppro: it would probably have been a disappointment if I'd waited 3 years
18:09:14 <coppro> itidus21: hourglass was meh; spirit tracks was pretty good
18:09:22 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway Ocarina of Time was a really good game.
18:09:26 <elliott> SMG2's main disappointment is that its version of Luigi's Purple Coins is really easy :'(
18:09:40 <ais523> elliott: which of the games is The Perfect Run in?
18:09:41 <coppro> even all the green stars were fairly easy
18:09:43 <Vorpal> ais523, also I liked zelda 2. *waits for reaction*
18:09:49 <coppro> most involved just doing a triple jump + spin
18:09:52 <ais523> Vorpal: which one was that?
18:09:54 <itidus21> i emulate windwaker on my pc but it leaves me with that painful feeling that my pc is way too old
18:09:56 <coppro> once you realized this, they were simple
18:10:02 <Vorpal> ais523, the one that wasn't very much like any other zelda game
18:10:06 <itidus21> i wish i had economic freedom to have always up to date PC
18:10:07 <elliott> I just googled it, didn't recall the name
18:10:17 <ais523> elliott: hmm, OK, there's your Luigi's Purple Coins equivalent
18:10:24 <elliott> ais523: I forget what it is
18:10:34 <ais523> it unlocks when you've done everything else in the game, and is freakishly difficult, although mostly in the fake-difficulty sort of way
18:10:38 <Vorpal> itidus21, was windwaker the one with cell shading?
18:10:51 <coppro> ais523: are you talking about the green stars?
18:10:54 <elliott> ais523: what is it, though?
18:11:03 <elliott> is it the one with all the bosses?
18:11:04 <ais523> coppro: those are one of the prerequisites
18:11:05 <itidus21> Vorpal: yeah... its a sweet game. except my pc is not built for emulating gamecube
18:11:06 <elliott> and you only have 1 heart?
18:11:12 <ais523> I'm looking for a YouTube video
18:11:13 <coppro> I may have missed this then
18:11:19 <ais523> yep, it has bosses, and platformy sections, and other things too
18:11:23 <ais523> and no continues and one health point
18:11:29 <itidus21> i can run it, but i have to turn down the resolution
18:11:31 <Vorpal> anyway, are nintendo still basically aiming their platforms just at kids? (I mean, as far as I know games like Battlefield and so on are basically PS3/xbox/PC)
18:11:45 <elliott> I certainly got all the green stars, but that's not saying much
18:11:48 <elliott> since the game proper is so easy
18:11:50 <Vorpal> itidus21, is there actually a good gamecube emulator nowdays? heh
18:11:50 <itidus21> and.. also areas where there is a lot of grass in windwaker makes framerate drop for me on my old pc in meulator
18:11:55 <ais523> here, I'll link a speedrun of it, because they tend to be more fun to watch for really difficult bits than regular runs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1zValdb0y4
18:12:14 <elliott> ais523: I was watching a 4 minute one but I'll watch this one instead :P
18:12:21 <itidus21> Vorpal: ill just find the name of it
18:12:26 <Vorpal> itidus21, that works too
18:12:35 <elliott> ais523: anyway, if it's what I'm thinking of, it is easier than Luigi's Purple Coins by far
18:12:42 <coppro> Vorpal: The critical points are a) The Wii's graphical capabilities lag behind its competitors and b) Nintendo's approach to online play is /very/ kid-oriented
18:13:08 <itidus21> its basically just caled dolphin
18:13:08 <ais523> I actually know people who say that Luigi's Purple Coins is not as hard as it's widely considered
18:13:13 <elliott> ais523: because all these sections are from previous levels
18:13:14 <ais523> my guess is that it gets easier with practice
18:13:18 <ais523> elliott: indeed, they are
18:13:18 <elliott> and SMG2 is not very difficult
18:13:25 <Vorpal> coppro, what about non-online play? I just can't imagine a TES game on a nintendo platform. Ever.
18:13:29 <coppro> By the time I beat it with Mario, doing so with Luigi was easy
18:13:36 <itidus21> my personality flaws mean if i ever try to get anything nice for myself someone else will sabotage my efforts. its very frustrating
18:13:38 <elliott> ais523: Luigi's Purple Coins is really shallow difficulty
18:13:47 <elliott> you just fail in stupid ways a few hundred times and then get it without trying
18:13:50 <coppro> Vorpal: There's been Call of Duty, James Bond, etc.
18:13:54 <elliott> but it's really aggravating
18:13:56 <coppro> Vorpal: No reason it couldn't happen
18:14:05 <Vorpal> also yeah I heard the Wii sucks
18:14:17 <itidus21> Vorpal: depends how you define "good".. if you cannot afford a gamecube,,, it is the only option
18:14:22 <elliott> ais523: basically, every time you play it you feel like you have to be doing something wrong
18:14:26 <elliott> at least that's what it felt like to me
18:14:26 <Vorpal> coppro, and skyrim isn't a high end game, at least not when you compare to high end PC-exclusive titles.
18:14:31 <Vorpal> coppro, like Witcher 2
18:14:35 <itidus21> and if your pc kicks ass... the dolphin emulator likewise kicks ass
18:15:07 <elliott> ais523: yeah, pretty sure I've done The Perfect Run
18:15:14 <coppro> computing power is probably the largest reason that Nintendo announced their next console first
18:15:14 <itidus21> my personality flaws mean if i ever try to get anything nice for myself (like a kickass PC) someone else will sabotage my efforts (taking my things, taking my savings, pawning my things, giving my things away as a gift to someone else). its very frustrating
18:15:25 <Vorpal> itidus21, well my PC might not kick ass, but I'm sure it could propel a donkey quite a far distance if I wanted to.
18:15:39 <coppro> itidus21: how does that have to do with your personality
18:15:50 <itidus21> coppro: you would be surprised.
18:16:14 <coppro> itidus21: you're non-confrontational so people take advantage of you or something?
18:16:21 <Vorpal> btw does anyone here know about compressive sensing theory?
18:16:44 <coppro> itidus21: :( You should be more confrontational
18:16:53 <Vorpal> (I /need/ to learn more on the subject, and I would like some good resources on it)
18:17:23 <itidus21> coppro: just as the rich get richer, the non-confrontational become less confrontational
18:17:33 <coppro> hmm actually I might have done grandmaster galaxy
18:17:38 <itidus21> i am starting to think it's actually systemic
18:19:07 <itidus21> it took me many years to realize that the people who take advantage of me aren't to blame for my being non-confrontational
18:19:16 <itidus21> and even now i struggle to be sure of that
18:19:52 <itidus21> it gives me insight into third world countries
18:21:25 <coppro> itidus21: find a friend to lean on
18:21:43 <coppro> or a lawyer to sue with
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18:23:35 <itidus21> its ok.. somehow.. this universe curses everyone with problems day in day out.
18:23:53 <coppro> yeah, but you shouldn't denied your own property
18:24:05 <coppro> you can make your problems suck less though
18:24:23 <elliott> coppro: i couldn't have done it without your help
18:24:30 <itidus21> if applying sufficient logic, i am a colonialist
18:25:42 <itidus21> i am not being denied "much" property
18:25:49 <itidus21> its all exaggerated in my head
18:26:31 <itidus21> well.. i escaped the people who really did deny me a lot
18:27:02 <itidus21> my brother is a bit more weird about it
18:27:52 <itidus21> the important thing, more important than anyting else is my side of the problem
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18:29:48 <ais523> elliott: you know how Agora has trouble if every judge gets recused from a case?
18:30:00 <ais523> I think something similar may happen in SCO vs. IBM
18:30:20 <ais523> there are only a finite number of judges in Utah; by some calculations, there are only two left
18:31:06 <ais523> and both have reasonably obvious reasons to recuse themselves
18:31:37 <pikhq> itidus21: I suggest you practice saying the following phrase: Fuck off.
18:32:08 <ais523> coppro: based on following it at Groklaw
18:32:15 <itidus21> this video is kind of funny in a way http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=tZ46Ot4_lLo
18:32:18 <ais523> the latest article is http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20111214164953543 but is missing most of the context
18:33:35 <ais523> coppro: aha, here's the context: http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20111210010653565
18:34:34 <kallisti> wow sometimes I forget everything about interfaces.
18:34:40 * kallisti just tried to tab-complete a word in irssi
18:34:41 <ais523> kallisti: which meaning of "interface"?
18:34:46 <ais523> kallisti: oh, I do that quite a bit, too
18:34:57 <ais523> once I changed my nick to a word I was having trouble spelling, to make it easier to tab-complete
18:35:01 * kallisti tapped the tab key madly. WHY ARE YOU NOT COMPLETING MY WORD.
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18:36:19 <kallisti> ais523: also now I have a bad habit of typing ctrl+s when I mean ctrl+f in many programs
18:36:39 <coppro> it works in most sane program
18:36:58 <ais523> oh no, you deleted the end of that string
18:37:01 <ais523> so now it's infinitely long
18:37:15 <ais523> elliott: hmm, I actually got the 100% ending of Braid today, complete with the waiting two hours
18:38:22 <ais523> I think most people getting into the pretentiousness of Braid have misinterpreted
18:38:30 <ais523> by time-reversing the wrong parts of the game
18:38:50 <Vorpal> wait what, is SCO still going?
18:39:49 <ais523> Vorpal: they were given a loan, under mysterious circumstances
18:40:03 <ais523> then they sold off everything but the litigation to a company called unXis that nobody seems to know much about
18:40:08 <ais523> Vorpal: some of their former shareholders, IIRC
18:40:25 <ais523> I said the circumstances were mysterious
18:40:45 <Vorpal> some sort of money scam to get money out of the company somehow?
18:40:54 <Vorpal> that is the only reason to keep going that I can think of
18:41:17 <ais523> Vorpal: everything that's going on makes it reasonably clear that there's at least one, probably two, scams somewhere
18:41:31 <ais523> the straightforward one seems to be being run by Ocean Park, who ended up with most of the money SCO originally had
18:41:43 <ais523> (in a completely legal manner, of course)
18:41:52 <ais523> but there's something much more complicated going on too, and I'm not sure what
18:42:06 <Vorpal> what makes you think it exists then?
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18:42:17 <Vorpal> also who are Ocean Park?
18:44:02 <ais523> SCO's bankrupcy trustee's accountants
18:44:14 <ais523> Vorpal: the actions of various people make no sense on information currently known
18:44:29 <ais523> and I'm guessing it's because there's information missing
18:44:54 <elliott> The Santa Cruz Operation would be a good title for a heist film.
18:45:20 <elliott> let's hope there's one going on now, so it has a possibility of being made
18:46:22 <ais523> truth often makes better fiction than actual fiction
18:46:26 <coppro> Potentially the loan was granted by people who just want to see novell suffer legal costs
18:46:32 <pikhq> elliott: Oh, hey. Sometime while I wasn't paying attention, that torrent came in.
18:46:40 <pikhq> I now have a 16 MiB file called "random".
18:46:49 <elliott> pikhq: I haven't run Transmission since I gave up the first time.
18:46:54 <elliott> Which was while I was talking to you about it.
18:47:02 <ais523> coppro: indeed; or even IBM
18:47:09 <Vorpal> coppro, but doesn't the loosing party have pay the legal costs?
18:47:13 <elliott> pikhq: And I never /once/ saw a peer.
18:47:17 <coppro> Vorpal: Not if they're bankrupt
18:47:24 <elliott> pikhq: And I can't upload 16 megs fast enough to not notice it while I was watching Transmission.
18:47:36 <coppro> Vorpal: Also the US generally does /not/ award costs
18:47:36 <pikhq> elliott: Well, I have the file.
18:47:47 <coppro> (one of the biggest flaws of their legal system)
18:47:52 <pikhq> md5sum f6bc78d996ade6145815ab5de9d8cf3f, right?
18:47:53 <elliott> pikhq: M...maybe someone generated the same random bits themselves later on?
18:47:57 <Vorpal> coppro, I couldn't parse that
18:47:59 <ais523> Vorpal: note that typically they have to pay the /court's/ costs, but not the other party's legal fees, which are much larger
18:48:06 <ais523> the costs of running a court aren't massively high
18:48:15 <pikhq> elliott: The hell.
18:48:22 <ais523> is that really just a file of random data?
18:48:33 <pikhq> ais523: He was just testing DHT.
18:48:41 <elliott> pikhq: Hmm, maybe you actually downloaded it from me while we were talking, and Transmission just failed at showing you?
18:48:47 <pikhq> elliott: Could be?
18:48:48 <Vorpal> pikhq, I remember elliott testing DHT like months ago
18:49:04 <elliott> Vorpal: I WAS READING ABOUT DISTRIBUTED HASH TABLES AND WANTED TO FEEL THE MAGIC
18:49:15 <coppro> Vorpal: Basically, the US fails to make the courts the ideal venue for resolution of disputes
18:49:21 <Vorpal> elliott, I find a tracker is generally more reliable :P
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18:49:38 <pikhq> coppro: Small claims courts are the ideal venue, though.
18:49:48 <elliott> Vorpal: DHT works fine as soon as you get a peer
18:49:52 <elliott> getting a peer is the problem
18:49:54 <coppro> pikhq: True. But not for large-scale claims
18:49:55 <ais523> pikhq: but only for claims that are actually small
18:49:55 <pikhq> This is *primarily* because your cost consists of filing fees.
18:49:57 <HackEgo> boroda_: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
18:50:00 <pikhq> ais523: Well, yes.
18:50:05 <Vorpal> elliott, and I generally want stuff done quickly
18:50:15 <elliott> Vorpal: DHT is fast on popular torrents
18:50:16 <pikhq> Beyond that, the courts are the worst venue for resolution of disputes.
18:50:29 <Vorpal> elliott, yes but your test ones are not popular!
18:50:34 <pikhq> You would literally be better off going for a duel in many cases.
18:50:37 <elliott> Vorpal: my test ones aren't on trackers
18:50:47 <ais523> pikhq: aren't courts about enforcement, not resolution?
18:50:54 <ais523> the problem is that they have to resolve it first to know what to enforce
18:50:58 <Vorpal> elliott, small + no trackers = sloooow
18:51:01 <ais523> and no, with duelling then the wrong person would lose half the time
18:51:06 <Vorpal> well, small as in not popular
18:51:14 <pikhq> ais523: US courts handle civil and criminal cases.
18:51:15 <coppro> Courts are also supposed to be about resolution
18:51:15 <ais523> probably more, actually, as good duelists would be able to get away with almost anything, so would be more litigious
18:51:23 <elliott> Vorpal: actually, if you both connect to the same popular torrent, it'll go instantly
18:51:25 <pikhq> Civil cases are about resolving disputes.
18:51:32 <elliott> two people downloading an ubuntu ISO can DHT with each other perfectly
18:51:42 <pikhq> *In practice*, people who can hire good lawyers are able to get away with almost anything.
18:51:45 <ais523> pikhq: but the main purpose they're used is that the court is (typically) capable of enforcing the result
18:52:09 <Vorpal> elliott, popular torrents are generally not DHT-only
18:52:13 <coppro> ais523: Yes, but that's because of a flawed system, not because the point isn't to resolve disputes
18:52:13 <Gregor> pikhq: And then publish a book detailing how they did it, with the title "If I did it", and laugh all the way to the bank.
18:52:15 <pikhq> At least with duels for resolving disputes, you can personally improve your ability at it. :P
18:52:24 <pikhq> Gregor: Or, in his case, to jail.
18:52:41 <coppro> In my view, courts should aim to be the ideal venue for resolving disputes; binding arbitration sucks
18:52:46 <pikhq> Gregor: OJ Simpson, complete moron, decided to commit robbery and kidnapping afterwards. He is now serving a 33 year sentence.
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18:53:03 <Gregor> pikhq: Well yeah, but he got away with the murder, he just shot too high is all :P
18:53:04 <Vorpal> Gregor, someone did that?
18:53:13 <pikhq> Vorpal: OJ Simpson.
18:53:13 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, popular torrents are generally not DHT-only
18:53:14 <ais523> I should probably ask who OJ Simpson is
18:53:16 <elliott> Vorpal: I never said they were
18:53:20 <Vorpal> pikhq, wow, how stupid
18:53:22 <ais523> I've heard of him, and know he's famous for being involved in a criminal trial
18:53:33 <pikhq> ais523: Some football player, mostly famous now for being acquitted for murder.
18:53:41 <elliott> ais523: he wrote a book called If I Did It
18:53:47 <elliott> ais523: saying /how/ he would have committed the crime /if/ he did it
18:53:48 <Vorpal> elliott, then how are you able to get data on it?
18:53:49 <elliott> while maintaining his innocence
18:54:10 <ais523> elliott: hmm; such behaviour wouldn't seem sensible for persuading people of your innocence
18:54:20 <elliott> ais523: it eventually got published with this cover: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4f/If_I_did_It_2.png
18:54:25 <pikhq> Vorpal: If you just punch in the infohash, your client will use DHT.
18:54:25 <coppro> ais523: The US's stupid double jeopardy rule
18:54:26 <elliott> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:If_I_did_It_2.png to make ais523 happy)
18:54:41 <Vorpal> elliott, wow the small "if" there
18:54:42 <pikhq> ais523: Everyone's convinced he actually committed it, anyways.
18:55:03 <elliott> ais523: "It was originally planned that the book would be promoted via a television special featuring an interview with Simpson on Fox Broadcasting Company. Fox and HarperCollins are both owned by the News Corporation. This special had the longer title, O. J. Simpson: If I Did It, Here's How It Happened. Like the original release of the book, the special was canceled."
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18:55:44 <ais523> pikhq: and he was eventually thrown in jail for something else, presumably?
18:56:02 <ais523> well, by "presumably" I mean "based on what was said slightly earlier in-channel"
18:56:18 <Gregor> Yeah, no double jeopardy. But he decided "Well if I got away with murder, I'll turn into a full-on gangster." and kidnapped and robbed and wtf dumbass.
18:59:00 <coppro> the double jeopardy rule in the US is retarded
18:59:38 <Phantom_Hoover> It just states that you can't be tried twice for the same crime, right?
19:01:27 <coppro> But there are two levels of stupid in it
19:01:46 <coppro> First, due to the principle of separate sovereigns, someone can be tried twice; once by the state and once by the federal government
19:02:03 <coppro> since the federal government can't, except by law, limit the states
19:02:11 <coppro> Second, it is interpreted as being absolute
19:02:30 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: You can't be tried twice for the same crime in the same jurisdiction.
19:02:37 <coppro> If you are acquitted, the government can appeal only by grounds that the trial was manifestly unfair (i.e. the judge or jury was bribed, or the like)
19:02:47 <coppro> The government can't appeal on any other error of law
19:02:49 <pikhq> If you commit the same crime in two states, congrats, you can be charged thrice.
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19:03:33 <pikhq> Also, yeah, if you get an error in law happening you're basically walking away.
19:03:52 <pikhq> And the police here *love* making those.
19:04:27 <coppro> In Canada, the government can appeal, but only errors of law since the jury is assumed to be correct in its verdict (which makes sense)
19:06:03 <pikhq> What really bothers me is that juries are instructed to only focus on strict matters of fact or law, even though in US court tradition and law, it's perfectly acceptable for juries to go "We find this law unjust; we find not guilty"...
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19:07:15 <coppro> pikhq: forget what the legal term for that is
19:07:26 <coppro> it has a bizarre position in Canadian law
19:07:34 <pikhq> Jury nullification.
19:07:54 <coppro> In Canadian law it is legal, but not a right of the defendent to have the jury informed of it
19:08:01 <pikhq> It's 100% legal in US law, judges just try very hard to get a mistrial if someone dares mention it.
19:08:15 <ais523> pikhq: actually, the lawyers for the sides select for juries who haven't heard of it
19:08:22 <pikhq> Ah, yes, that too.
19:08:23 <ais523> (having lawyer-selected juries is a little insane in its own way)
19:08:45 <coppro> ais523: Don't they use the same process in the UK?
19:08:47 <pikhq> Yeah, if juries were *sane* they'd go for a random sample.
19:09:13 <ais523> coppro: 12 random people plus 1 random alternate
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19:09:20 <ais523> who can only be objected to if obviously biased, IIRC
19:09:24 <ais523> such as being related to the defendant
19:09:29 <coppro> ais523: There's no preremptory objections?
19:09:35 <ais523> I think there might be one per side
19:09:39 <ais523> certainly nowhere as many as in the US
19:09:52 <pikhq> They're unbound in the US, IIRC.
19:10:01 <Vorpal> Sweden doesn't use juries except in a few special types of cases.
19:10:03 <pikhq> You basically have the lawyers *selecting* jurors.
19:10:10 <Phantom_Hoover> <pikhq> What really bothers me is that juries are instructed to only focus on strict matters of fact or law, even though in US court tradition and law, it's perfectly acceptable for juries to go "We find this law unjust; we find not guilty"...
19:10:17 <coppro> ais523: wikipedia tells me it was eliminated in 1988
19:10:19 <Vorpal> iirc related to right of free speech stuff, then you get a jury in Sweden
19:10:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, but their *instructions* are to only focus on strict matters of fact and law.
19:10:30 <pikhq> Vorpal: The US doesn't use juries unless the defendent requests it, IIRC.
19:10:32 <ais523> coppro: that'd explain why I thought they didn't have it
19:10:41 <Vorpal> pikhq, and they usually request that?
19:10:42 <Phantom_Hoover> <coppro> ais523: Don't they use the same process in the UK?
19:10:50 <ais523> pikhq: the jury instructions are also written by the lawyers
19:10:54 <pikhq> Vorpal: Not really.
19:10:59 <ais523> however, they tend to disagree a lot about what they should say, for obvious reasons
19:11:10 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: oh right, I was talking about the England/Wales court system
19:11:15 <Phantom_Hoover> We have juries of 15, and verdicts are by majority, for instanc.
19:11:16 <ais523> I know it's diferent in Scotland
19:11:16 <pikhq> Scots law isn't even in the tradition of common law.
19:11:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Nobody cares Mr. Phantom "Waah Scotland matters" Hoover.
19:11:50 <pikhq> Making it more distinct from English law than US law is. :P
19:11:52 <coppro> in Canada, it's 20 for high treason or murder, 12 if there is a prison term of 5 years or more on the line, and 4 otherwise
19:12:02 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what happens after "not proven"?
19:12:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: hmm, shouldn't it be "innocent" if there's another "dunno" one?
19:12:18 <ais523> elliott: Hexham's near enough to Scotland for Scotland to matter to you, surely?
19:12:28 <ais523> it'd probably be at risk of invasion if the Scots ever cared to try
19:12:45 <Vorpal> anyway I find this Scottish system quite interesting
19:13:02 <Phantom_Hoover> There seems to be literally no functional difference between not proven and not guilty.
19:13:30 <Vorpal> btw didn't some party that wanted to separate from the UK win the Scottish election? Whatever happened to that?
19:13:31 <HackEgo> 662) <Phantom__Hoover> Also you steal Berwick from us and then say you don't want it? <Ngevd> You stole it from us first!
19:13:37 <elliott> that's where all the warring goes on
19:13:53 <ais523> elliott: right, indeed
19:14:12 <ais523> Vorpal: it's the SNP; their problem is that they can't make Scotland independent without a referendum
19:14:26 <ais523> and all the statistics indicate that if they try a referendum, which they can do, they'll lose it
19:14:33 <ais523> so they're trying to find excuses to not do it yet
19:14:42 <Vorpal> that must be awkward for them
19:14:49 <pikhq> Why the heck would Scotland want to become independent, anyways? Near as I can tell, it's only to their benefit.
19:14:49 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway, lose by how much?
19:14:54 <elliott> they're just waiting for more english pansies to die
19:14:56 <pikhq> To the detriment of England, but hey.
19:15:09 <ais523> Vorpal: I don't know, and you could look it up as easily as I could
19:15:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: EU? More like EUuuuuwwwwww, that's gross!
19:15:26 <Phantom_Hoover> (I vehemently oppose the SNP because they want closer ties with Sweden.)
19:15:26 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: What, becoming a more proper EU member, or leaving it?
19:15:31 <Vorpal> ais523, well, I thought you might remember if it was a close thing or far from being likely.
19:15:32 <ais523> incidentally, the SNP wants Scotland to stay fully part of the Commonwealth
19:15:36 <coppro> dammit thundurus, why can't you be nice like kyurem was? :(
19:15:41 <ais523> Vorpal: I think it's somewhere in between
19:15:51 <Vorpal> ais523, that is good enough for me
19:15:56 <ais523> coppro: I still haven't caught kyurem yet; I need to manipulate it to perfect stats like I did with Zekrom
19:15:56 <elliott> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> (I vehemently oppose the SNP because they want closer ties with Sweden.)
19:15:59 <HackEgo> 765) <Phantom_Hoover> (I vehemently oppose the SNP because they want closer ties with Sweden.)
19:15:59 <pikhq> ais523: A Commonwealth country, or a Commonwealth realm?
19:16:07 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> (I vehemently oppose the SNP because they want closer ties with Sweden.) <-- they do?
19:16:08 <ais523> pikhq: I don't know the difference
19:16:08 <coppro> ais523: RNG manipulation?
19:16:18 <ais523> only time I've ever used a Max Repel in a no-encounter area
19:16:19 <pikhq> ais523: A Commonwealth realm has the Queen as monarch.
19:16:26 <ais523> in order to count steps
19:16:30 <pikhq> A Commonwealth country is just a country in the Commonwealth.
19:16:34 <coppro> ais523: I thought legend stats were generated in advance in modern games?
19:16:37 <ais523> pikhq: in that case, I don't know the answer
19:16:40 <Vorpal> <ais523> coppro: I still haven't caught kyurem yet; I need to manipulate it to perfect stats like I did with Zekrom <-- huh?
19:16:50 <ais523> coppro: they can be, but the precise meaning of "in advance" differs from pokemon to pokemon
19:17:03 <ais523> in the case of Zekrom, it's generated upon talking to it
19:17:11 <coppro> ais523: by 'in advance', I meant game start
19:17:16 <ais523> no, nowhere near that early
19:17:36 <ais523> it's typically either the event where you encounter them, the event that makes them possible to encounter (i.e. adds them to the map), or beating the elite four
19:17:36 <pikhq> ais523: If they were to *just* seperate right now, then it'd end up being a realm... But it wouldn't be too hard to imagine Scotland also getting rid of its monarchy.
19:17:38 <Vorpal> it sounds almost as if they wanted people to manipulate the RNG then
19:17:51 <coppro> I might do that in a future game; in this game, I'm not doing anything like that
19:17:58 <pikhq> Vorpal: Seems like it.
19:17:58 <ais523> Vorpal: they took deliberate steps to make the RNG more complicated in fifth gen
19:18:03 <ais523> and ended up making it easier as a result
19:18:09 <pikhq> There's a lot of randomness in the games.
19:18:21 <Vorpal> ais523, I meant, why not just generate those stats on new game
19:18:25 <elliott> <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> (I vehemently oppose the SNP because they want closer ties with Sweden.) <-- they do?
19:18:38 <ais523> Vorpal: because then people would manipulate them on new game
19:18:41 <Vorpal> elliott, that was not obviously a joke
19:19:06 <ais523> seriously, trainer ID manipulation has been done on new game routinely in gen IV, because there, shiny flawless legendaries are impossible without particular trainer ID/secret ID combinations
19:19:10 <ais523> so people manipulate for those
19:19:21 <Vorpal> ais523, right, but they can just manipulate it later now, and it is easier to check the results if you don't have to play through the whole game.
19:19:38 <elliott> Vorpal: you would have got it if you read his previous line
19:19:44 <coppro> ais523: What resource do you use for the RNG?
19:19:52 <ais523> coppro: depends on which game
19:20:07 <ais523> for fifth gen, and various things that I can't otherwise handle in fourth gen, mono + RNG Reporter
19:20:14 <ais523> as it's the most complete program in that respect
19:20:31 <Vorpal> ais523, mono as in the .NET environment?!
19:20:42 <ais523> because RNG Reporter is a .NET program
19:21:00 <ais523> for fourth gen catches, I use this: http://shaym.in/apps/iv_checker
19:21:29 <coppro> ais523: I mean a resource explaining the systems
19:21:48 <ais523> ah; Smogon has some guides, and there are various YouTube videos
19:22:02 <ais523> but I find it best to understand how the game works, and then do the manipulation on that basis
19:22:22 <coppro> hence why I ask if you have resources explaining the mechanics
19:22:28 <Vorpal> I assume doing RNG manipulation on real hardware would be near impossible?
19:22:30 <ais523> note that the help information on the page I link explains how to use that page to do a flawless catch
19:22:38 <Vorpal> since there would be various inputs that would be hard to control
19:22:41 <ais523> Vorpal: no? it's real hardware I do it on
19:22:54 <ais523> the basic point is that you only need to control one of the inputs, and just hold everything else consistent
19:23:27 <Vorpal> ais523, what? On something like a modern handheld system with wifi it would be trivial for the system to generate new random seeds every so often
19:23:41 <Vorpal> like /dev/random on linux does
19:23:45 <ais523> Vorpal: what if someone puts it on airplane mode?
19:23:58 <ais523> (which is exactly what I do for black/white RNG control, for exactly that reason)
19:24:06 <Vorpal> ais523, hm, there are sure to be other sources of randomness. Clock drift between CPU cores?
19:24:22 <ais523> Vorpal: yes, indeed, but it only drifts between two values
19:24:30 <ais523> so you just keep retrying until you hit the one you want
19:24:44 <elliott> nintendo probably don't spend thousands of dollars on preventing RNG abuse :P
19:24:58 <ais523> elliott: they do seem to have been given an order "make the RNG more complicated"
19:25:06 <Vorpal> elliott, you don't exactly need to spend 1000s of dollars to do these kind of things
19:25:06 <elliott> ais523: for trading, perhaps/
19:25:10 <ais523> but it wasn't so hard it wasn't cracked
19:25:15 <Vorpal> anyway aren't there any good, hard to predict RNGs?
19:25:17 <elliott> Vorpal: yes you do, you need to employ someone who could think of them
19:25:25 <ais523> elliott: probably by tPCI, who don't really like RNG abuse in official tournaments but haven't found any way to ban it
19:25:31 <elliott> Vorpal: and then implement them
19:25:49 <Vorpal> elliott, there are often reference implementations available for many
19:25:50 <elliott> ais523: hmm, I assumed tournaments gave you predetermined pokemans
19:25:55 <elliott> but I guess kids wouldn't like that
19:26:00 <ais523> indeed, that'd defeat the whole point
19:26:03 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm talking about things like seeding with clock drift
19:26:09 <ais523> the tournaments are basically just advertising
19:26:23 <ais523> elliott: the seeding with clock drift seems to be a mistake
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19:26:57 <ais523> in gen 4, it was seeded with the number of frames it took to dismiss the cutscene at the start of the game, which is a good entropy source (also the ones that players manipulated in practice, although it requires timing a keypress to 1/60 second)
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19:27:00 <coppro> ais523: your page doesn't explain things like 1, J, K
19:27:08 <ais523> in gen 5, the check was at the start of the cutscene
19:27:18 <ais523> coppro: yes it does, "which RNG method should I choose?"
19:27:24 <Vorpal> elliott, it isn't really hard to do. Read the TSC (for x86 that is, I assume there are/could be similar things for, say, ARM) on the two CPUs several times and use the differences to generate randomness
19:27:41 <Vorpal> ais523, why don't they just re-seed it, I don
19:28:03 <elliott> Vorpal: you realise that programmers at Nintendo are probably paid enough to make a few thousand in not all that long a time, right?
19:28:27 <elliott> making the RNG seeding perfect probably comes considerably lower than "making a decent game"
19:28:31 <ais523> Vorpal: besides, if the reseed interval wasn't /very/ fast, people would just do the catch before the first reseed
19:28:49 <Vorpal> ais523, every few seconds sounds reasonable to me
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19:29:08 <coppro> ais523: it still doesn't really explain how they work though
19:29:16 <ais523> Vorpal: I would typically cause the stat generation to happen in the first second or so of poweron
19:29:21 <Vorpal> ais523, hm, if wifi is on, that is an obvious source. Also couldn't you passively listen to radio noise even in airplane mode? I thought the point of the airplane mode was to not /emit/ anything?
19:29:33 <ais523> Vorpal: not the way that the DS's antenna works, I think
19:29:43 <elliott> that would use power, wouldn't it
19:29:52 <Vorpal> elliott, well yes, but you can't have everything
19:29:59 <elliott> Vorpal: better rng <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< decreasing battery life
19:30:04 <ais523> coppro: it might be simplest if you just ask me, I don't think there are any good explanations around about what's actually going on that aren't terribly technical
19:30:13 <Vorpal> well you could require wifi on in tournaments
19:30:22 <elliott> ais523: i believe that is what he was doing.
19:30:28 <ais523> Vorpal: we're talking about catching Pokémon before the tournament
19:30:28 <Vorpal> that would solve it for that use case at least
19:30:43 <Vorpal> ais523, then what prevents you from doing memory hacking?
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19:30:59 <coppro> ais523: I'm fine with terribly technical
19:30:59 <ais523> Vorpal: they try to detect that
19:31:02 <coppro> in fact, that's preferred
19:31:21 <ais523> they aren't as good at detecting that as the people who do the RNG manipulation are, though
19:31:23 <Vorpal> ais523, hard if you just modify the stats to the best plausible levels from rng trickery?
19:31:36 <ais523> Vorpal: what if the stats are valid, but couldn't be generated by the game's RNG?
19:31:48 <ais523> the RNG can't return every possible sequence of numbers, after all
19:32:02 <ais523> (it can in Black/White, incidentally, by using two RNGs that go through seeds at different rates)
19:32:24 <Vorpal> you would have to ensure that it would be possible with the RNG
19:32:31 <Vorpal> anyway how can you time it right?
19:32:54 <pikhq> Gamers are freaks.
19:32:54 <ais523> coppro: for 4th gen, this forum thread: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52180
19:33:01 <ais523> ther's another thread in the same forum for 5th gen
19:33:28 <pikhq> Last I checked, the difference between the human speedrun and the TAS run of Super Mario Bros. was a few seconds.
19:33:36 <Vorpal> ais523, I mean if you use the current time in clock cycles or even in microseconds as part of the randomness when the value is requested you couldn't do it feasibly on non-modified hardware
19:33:48 <ais523> Vorpal: on average, how many tries do you think it takes someone who's been practicing for 10 hours to time a keypress to within 1/60th of a second, using any tools (metronomes, countdowns, etc) they want?
19:34:06 <Vorpal> ais523, 1/60th? really?
19:34:07 <ais523> note that the buttons on the DS are only read once per frame
19:34:18 <ais523> so the timing won't be any more accurate than that
19:34:23 <Vorpal> ais523, I would have assumed they gave interrupts
19:34:30 <ais523> really? that's incredibly rare in games
19:34:38 <ais523> so why would you expect consoles to support it?
19:34:46 <Vorpal> ais523, I wasn't aware it was rare in games
19:35:06 <ais523> in fact, most PC games engine use a simple interrupt handler that makes it look like polling
19:35:26 <ais523> and basically because most games have a physics engine that can only process input once a frame; the rest of the time, it's busy calculating motion on that frame
19:35:30 <pikhq> It's much easier to do a while(1) {check_buttons(); update_state(); render();} loop than do interrupts.
19:35:41 <Vorpal> ais523, hm is the PC keyboard polled or interrupting? I would assume at least the USB case is interrupting
19:35:48 <Vorpal> not sure about the PS/2 case
19:35:57 <pikhq> Vorpal: Interrupts.
19:35:57 <Vorpal> I mean, to the OS level
19:35:58 <ais523> Vorpal: it's interrupting, but the BIOS can make it look like polled
19:36:19 <ais523> and it's up to the OS whether it looks at the BIOS or whether it overrides the interrupt table to get the interrupts directly
19:36:38 <Vorpal> well, most modern OS tries to avoid using the BIOS
19:36:58 <Vorpal> also using the BIOS presents some major problems from long mode iirc
19:37:17 <pikhq> Yeah, usually an OS just handles the interrupt itself.
19:37:26 <elliott> never mind long mode, you can't use the BIOS in protected mode
19:37:46 <Vorpal> elliott, oh okay, I thought you could do virtual 8086 mode then or something
19:37:52 <Vorpal> or whatever it was called
19:38:09 <elliott> sounds more painful than rewriting the bios routines though
19:38:38 <Vorpal> virtual 8086 it is called
19:38:50 <Vorpal> won't work in long mode of course
19:39:12 <ais523> Vorpal: one of the few things in the "deliberately unsupported because I can't figure out wtf effect it would have" list in Web of Lies
19:39:38 <Vorpal> ais523, what are the other things on that list?
19:39:57 <ais523> Vorpal: I'm trying to remember, now
19:40:40 <ais523> Vorpal: ptrace is probably the biggest one
19:40:51 <Vorpal> ais523, anything else?
19:40:56 <ais523> also, modify_ldt, personality, lookup_dcookie, and unshare
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19:41:13 <Vorpal> I never heard of those
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19:41:38 <ais523> wait, I found personality was actually being used
19:41:55 <ais523> so it's only unsupported with certain arguments (which it silently replaces with different similar arguments in the hope that the system will still work)
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19:42:25 <Vorpal> ais523, after reading man page I'm surprised the first one even exists in user space. Wtf. And there is no EPERM or such in the ERRORS section either. What.
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19:44:33 <Vorpal> ais523, I assume wol uses personality though?
19:44:44 <Vorpal> ais523, stuff like ADDR_NO_RANDOMIZE looks like cut out for it
19:45:04 <ais523> so what it does in other process's calls to personality is to add ADDR_NO_RANDOMIZE to the argument list
19:45:06 <elliott> <ais523> Vorpal: ptrace is probably the biggest one
19:45:07 <ais523> whether they specified it or not
19:45:13 <elliott> ais523: but how will you calculate weboflies' eigenratio?
19:45:25 <ais523> elliott: I don't think I've even tried running it inside itself
19:45:45 <ais523> it causes valgrind to internal-error (I think even with valgrind on the outside)
19:45:45 <oerjan> 16:20:22: <ais523> you-plural <-- i hear the technical term is "all y'all". hth.
19:45:50 <ais523> which is resaonably impressive
19:46:00 <elliott> haha, modify_ldt must be root-only, surely
19:46:10 <olsner> valgrind in wol in valgrind?
19:46:26 <Vorpal> elliott, yes that was my reaction too. Then I looked at "errors" and I was even more wtf
19:46:38 <elliott> it's probably just omitted
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19:46:44 <ais523> well, the LDT /is/ per-process…
19:47:00 <elliott> unsigned int read_exec_only:1;
19:47:06 <elliott> it /must/ be unsafe to let you modify that, surely
19:47:25 <Vorpal> unless it only permit valid values
19:47:40 <Vorpal> elliott, look at the EFAULT description
19:48:00 <ais523> Vorpal: that's if you specify the argument to modify_ldt as outside your own address space
19:48:08 <ais523> EFAULT is what you get when passing NULL pointers to the kernel, or whatever
19:48:35 <elliott> hmm, actual thing I have thought: "this thing just isn't fast enough, I wish it used exec() directly rather than the shell"
19:48:51 <elliott> <ais523> EFAULT is what you get when passing NULL pointers to the kernel, or whatever
19:48:56 <elliott> ais523: there have been kernel bugs caused by failing to check this, btw
19:49:02 <elliott> guess what type of bug doesn't apply to @?
19:49:08 <Vorpal> anyway modify_ldt looks to me as if it belongs in the same category as ioperm and such. That is the category of "oh god, who thought exposing this to the user space was a good idea"
19:49:47 <ais523> elliott: heh, I have to keep remembering to check EFAULT in weboflies
19:49:57 <ais523> if I'm simulating a syscall myself
19:50:54 <Gregor> So is Web o' Flies totally non-secret now?
19:51:01 <Gregor> Or is the code still a jealously-guarded secret?
19:51:19 <Vorpal> I believe I have a copy of it somewhere. Couldn't tell where though
19:51:24 <Vorpal> never ran it, it scared me too much
19:51:37 <Gregor> I have a copy too, I didn't bother to get it to compile.
19:51:37 <ais523> but this channel knows of its existence
19:51:40 <ais523> the source code is available on request
19:51:48 <oerjan> <Ngevd> Tomorrow they remove the letter "m" from the alphabet <-- and in 9-10 days, they'll remove "l".
19:51:51 <Vorpal> it required root (for obvious reasons) and there was NO way I was going to run that sort of crazy stuff as root :P
19:51:56 <Gregor> When I write two lines of source code to do something nobody else has ever wanted to do, I release the source.
19:51:56 <ais523> apparently, it compiles fine, but on most people's kernels fails with EPERM for reasons most people don't understand
19:51:57 <elliott> Gregor: it needs to be secret otherwise the effort is wasted
19:52:01 <elliott> Vorpal: it does nothing on x86-64
19:52:17 <ais523> elliott: anyway, that reminds me of an idea I had
19:52:24 <Vorpal> elliott, but you can run 32-bit programs on x86-64 fine usually?
19:52:27 <ais523> instead of getting the control process to drop permissions entirely
19:52:30 <Vorpal> elliott, you say that doesn't work here?
19:52:38 <Vorpal> elliott, where does it fail?
19:52:42 <elliott> well, it seems to be 64-bit kernels that it fails on
19:52:44 <ais523> get it to suspend them, and then set itself back to root where it fails
19:52:46 <elliott> it fails on my x86-64 arch
19:52:48 <elliott> and works in a 32-bit arch vm
19:53:06 <Vorpal> elliott, that is bizarre
19:53:07 <ais523> Vorpal: yep, the permissions of /proc seem to be not what we'd expect them to be
19:53:18 <Vorpal> why would they differ between architectures!?
19:53:18 <ais523> also, whenever I attempt to debug the problem, it starts working
19:53:32 <olsner> aha, it just wants some attention
19:53:34 <ais523> anyway, I recommend using a 32-bit VM and solve all your problems that way
19:53:42 <elliott> ais523: I wonder if it works in qemu-system
19:53:48 <ais523> both the "crazy code as root" problem, and the "confuses 64-bit kernels" problem
19:53:58 <elliott> <Vorpal> why would they differ between architectures!?
19:54:06 <elliott> Vorpal: well, /proc/<pid> needs architecture-specific info...
19:54:23 <elliott> /permissions/ changing is weird, admittedly
19:54:42 <Vorpal> I mean, sure if there was an extra file or a file was missing.
19:54:51 <Vorpal> elliott, what was the permission difference though?
19:55:04 <elliott> Vorpal: /proc/<pid>/fd failed to stop being owned by root on weboflies' complicated permissions drop
19:55:08 <ais523> Vorpal: something was owned by root that should have been owned by woluser
19:55:45 <Vorpal> well a quick check of /proc/self/fd indicates it is owned by the user in the normal case.
19:55:59 <Vorpal> ais523, does wol depend on that permission being like that?
19:56:11 <ais523> Vorpal: because it's trying to read its own procfiles
19:56:14 <ais523> and failing because it isn't root
19:56:42 <ais523> the process was started as nonroot, by a process that wasn't root (but had been root at some point in the past)
19:56:47 <Vorpal> ais523, sounds like this might be a kernel bug in either 32-bit or 64-bit
19:56:59 <ais523> but normally, if you drop permissions and then fork a process, the resulting process can read its procfiles
19:57:06 <elliott> 64-bit if anything, definitely
19:57:08 <ais523> wait, me testing is pointless, I don't see the bug
19:57:43 <ais523> elliott: on your computer, try starting a root shell, then using su to start a shell as a regular user, then checking the /proc/self's permissions
19:57:54 <Vorpal> does it happen on a trivial test case? As in, doing the basic uid changing and forking and such but not all the other crazy stuff that wol does?
19:57:57 <elliott> ais523: sudo -s is root shell enough, yes?
19:58:30 <elliott> ais523: that won't work, su forks a shell
19:58:37 <elliott> well, rather, su execs a shell
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19:59:01 <ais523> elliott: the situation in wol is fork, drop permissions, exec
19:59:07 <ais523> isn't that what su is doing?
19:59:16 <ais523> or well, it probably doesn't need the fork
19:59:22 <ais523> but I don't see how it'd matter
19:59:38 <elliott> [root@dinky esoteric]# ls -ld /proc/self/fd
19:59:38 <elliott> dr-x------ 2 root root 0 Dec 15 19:58 /proc/self/fd
19:59:38 <elliott> [root@dinky esoteric]# su elliott
19:59:38 <elliott> [elliott@dinky esoteric]$ ls -ld /proc/self/fd
19:59:38 <elliott> dr-x------ 2 elliott users 0 Dec 15 19:58 /proc/self/fd
20:00:09 <Vorpal> $ su - arvid /bin/ls /proc/self/fd
20:00:09 <Vorpal> /bin/ls: /bin/ls: cannot execute binary file
20:00:26 <Vorpal> what am I missing here
20:00:36 <Vorpal> plain /bin/ls works fine
20:00:59 <Gregor> That's not how su works, that's how sudo works.
20:01:05 <elliott> oh, pinged out half an hour ago
20:01:09 <Gregor> su - whatever -c 'command'
20:01:19 <Vorpal> Gregor, I thought that was sudo
20:01:35 <elliott> $ sudo ls # Vorpal thinks this doesn't work
20:01:52 <Gregor> Vorpal: Arguments to su are arguments to the shell. e.g. bash /bin/ls
20:03:41 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway an obvious way to generate randomness on a DS would be the ways you can generate randomness in wol
20:04:07 <ais523> Vorpal: busy looping doesn't create randomness in WOL
20:04:20 <elliott> Vorpal: a DS is already busylooping the /game loop/
20:04:26 <Vorpal> elliott, hm good point
20:04:47 <elliott> Vorpal: anyway, that trick only works with a preemptive scheduler
20:05:01 <elliott> if you do it on the other CPU, you're just measuring clock drift again
20:05:24 <Vorpal> elliott, so add a hardware clock alarm and check the instruction pointer when you get the interrupt.
20:05:30 <Vorpal> if DS has that sort of alarms
20:06:09 <elliott> Vorpal: so, interrupt the game loop more often than every 1/60 seconds?
20:06:37 <Vorpal> elliott, well on a PC it kind of would be hard to tell due to PCs being so fast. I guess it would be an issue on a DS though
20:06:55 <elliott> Vorpal: the point is that you're saying "please interrupt the machine more than once per frame"
20:07:11 <elliott> "and spend CPU time reseeding the RNG with it"
20:07:54 <Vorpal> elliott, interrupts on button presses would work though. Because that way you would only get those extra interrupts when the user is performing the action in question
20:08:11 <Vorpal> not on the DS sure, but for future platforms
20:08:13 <elliott> Vorpal: which is again defeated by the user timing their button press...
20:08:28 <Vorpal> elliott, you can only time up to a certain accuracy
20:08:55 <elliott> Vorpal: how accurate are you asking the clock to be, exactly?
20:08:58 <Vorpal> elliott, if this would help or not would depend on how accurately you measure the time of the interrupt
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20:09:16 <elliott> Vorpal: anyway, even if you can't time it to that
20:09:19 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't know how accurate DS clocks are, but PC clocks can easily get down to microseconds
20:09:22 <elliott> the clock is limited precision
20:09:26 <Vorpal> <elliott> just keep trying <-- well yes
20:09:29 <elliott> there are a limited number of bits of noise you can look at the lower end from
20:09:37 <elliott> just spend hours tapping the button every 1/n seconds
20:09:50 <ais523> elliott: for what it's worth, Pokémon Red/Blue are famously impossible to manipulate
20:09:57 <ais523> because they care about every single keystrok
20:10:05 <elliott> ais523: certainly, that sounds plausible
20:10:05 <Vorpal> elliott, that is like pudding farming then :P
20:10:09 <ais523> also, they're apparently annoying to manipulate even in TASes
20:10:10 <elliott> I just think Vorpal's ideas for doing it are ridiculous
20:10:23 <ais523> due to some details of the way it works
20:10:40 <Phantom_Hoover> <ais523> elliott: for what it's worth, Pokémon Red/Blue are famously impossible to manipulate
20:10:42 <Vorpal> ais523, so why haven't nintendo just doing it that way again?
20:11:07 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: well, not actually impossible, but beyond anyone's ability
20:11:29 <oerjan> <itidus21> i wonder what properties of hexham inspire esolang <-- my guess is "intense boredom".
20:11:43 <elliott> oerjan: you live in /Trondheim/
20:12:17 <Vorpal> elliott, and he is doing esolangs
20:12:29 <elliott> Vorpal: so he can't diss hexham!
20:13:02 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't think he was dissing it. Just trying to explain the reason for the observed data
20:13:20 <Vorpal> itidus21, I'm convinced it is generated by buses
20:13:24 <elliott> Vorpal: you didn't realise /that/ was a joke?
20:13:31 <elliott> come on, stop being hopeless
20:13:33 <Vorpal> elliott, I didn't take it as one
20:13:57 <Vorpal> itidus21, or perhaps more accurately by bus stops
20:14:07 <Vorpal> itidus21, the reason is that the only time I ever get really bored is while waiting for buses.
20:14:14 -!- Klisz has joined.
20:14:19 <itidus21> theres this effect whereby the grass is greener on the other side of the fence
20:14:26 <Vorpal> Presumably the same would apply to trains, but I rarely travel by them.
20:14:32 <itidus21> i don't know if it has a formal fallacy name
20:14:44 <Vorpal> itidus21, how is that related to bus stops?
20:16:07 <Vorpal> the problem is that you don't know exactly when the bus will arrive. Except for the end station and some major interconnections the time it arrives and leaves at may vary with a few minutes. As in, it won't wait if it is a minute or two too early.
20:16:37 <Vorpal> so you need to go to the bus stop like 5 minutes in advance, and then the bus may end up 5 minutes too late as well
20:16:39 <oerjan> elliott: trondheim is rather larger.
20:16:41 <Vorpal> and you have nothing to do
20:17:24 <Vorpal> oerjan, the busy metropolis of Trondheim?
20:17:39 <itidus21> on a side note, someone in a distant chatroom suggested to me that finland is very depressing and a bit of a gulag
20:17:57 <Vorpal> itidus21, "distant chatroom"? How do you measure distance between IRC channels?
20:18:20 -!- Gregor has set topic: <itidus21> on a side note, [...] finland is very depressing and a bit of a gulag | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
20:18:21 <itidus21> its a bit like measuring uhh.. erdos number
20:18:24 <Vorpal> itidus21, even so, how do you measure distance between two online resources
20:18:58 <itidus21> or the distance to kevin spacey
20:19:30 <Vorpal> itidus21, anyway they are connected by you, means it can't be that distance from this channel
20:19:35 <itidus21> but the person in question is a troll who insists on finding fault with every country and religion
20:20:09 <coppro> ais523: turns out my kyurem is modest with 10 IV in SpA, 31 in HP, and 13 in Speed
20:20:15 <Vorpal> itidus21, well there usually /are/ faults in most things. You just have to compare the upsides to the downsides.
20:20:42 <ais523> coppro: what did you calculate that based on?
20:20:50 <ais523> and, err, modest with 10 SpA? that's not really ideal
20:21:06 <coppro> ais523: just plugged it into a calculator
20:21:11 <coppro> and no, it isn't, but it could be worse
20:21:21 <ais523> sure, it could have been Adamant
20:21:44 <itidus21> people who i have seen him harshly criticize includes: gandhi, dalai lama, des cartes, alan turing
20:22:13 <itidus21> eventually i got around to ignoring the guy, even if he does make curious points
20:23:19 <elliott> did gandhi not support hitler or sth
20:24:13 <coppro> ais523: Missing those IVs is roughly equivalent to having a neutral nature and perfect IVs
20:24:19 * kallisti names his Starcraft II account "duh cart"
20:24:21 <olsner> des cartes, the famous german philosopher
20:24:37 <ais523> coppro: exactly, so you have all the speed loss of Modest /and/ all the special attack loss of Timid?
20:25:01 <kallisti> seriously I watch sc2 games like every day.
20:25:04 <coppro> wait, speed loss of modest? what?
20:25:14 <itidus21> hmm.. cartesian duality was his main gripe there
20:25:17 <Vorpal> elliott, obviously he meant desc artes, a from of pop art.
20:25:18 <ais523> coppro: modest isn't +speed
20:25:25 <ais523> thus, your speed isn't as high as it could be
20:25:26 <coppro> ais523: oh, I see what you mean
20:26:01 <itidus21> even though i don't know anything about it
20:26:08 <Vorpal> elliott, it involves making speling erorrs
20:26:31 <Vorpal> elliott, I was simply triyng to get into the mood
20:27:14 <Vorpal> itidus21, anyway what was that about bus stops and grass being greener on the other side?
20:27:29 <Vorpal> itidus21, you never got around to explaining it
20:27:33 <itidus21> im looking for a wiki page about the grass being greener phenomenon
20:28:00 <Vorpal> itidus21, but how is it related to being bored due to waiting for something and having nothing to do to pass the time?
20:28:55 <itidus21> i'll get around to that eventually
20:29:04 <itidus21> but surely there is a name for this damn phenomenon
20:29:13 <Vorpal> I'm extremely seldom bored unless I'm in such a situation. I generally find something to do even if I have nothing that I need to do.
20:29:24 <itidus21> "The grass is always greener on the other side" suggests an alternate state of affairs will always seem preferable to one's own.
20:30:04 <Vorpal> itidus21, well right. Often involves jealousy of the the neighbour's lawn?
20:30:28 <itidus21> hmm.. but i suspect it is a natural psychological illusion
20:30:58 <Vorpal> (well I never noticed that sort of thing wrt actual lawns)
20:31:09 <itidus21> its not an optical illusion of course
20:31:23 <itidus21> there is some level of metaphorical abstraction
20:31:24 <Vorpal> it would be weird if it was
20:32:04 <Vorpal> itidus21, anyway, yes the bus arriving is a better state of the world than the bus not arriving yet. Especially if it is very cold.
20:32:20 <itidus21> well.. its like saying on some given street, home X is more of a mess inside than home X-1 and also home X is more of a mess inside than home X+1
20:33:17 <Vorpal> I never noticed that really either.
20:33:29 <itidus21> maybe your house isn't a pigsty like mine
20:33:53 <Vorpal> not really. Sure there are a few unruly heaps of papers on my desk, and such
20:34:02 <itidus21> maybe the occupants of your household don't generate waste and expect someone else to clean it
20:34:30 <itidus21> as if such people could not get by day to day without paid workers
20:34:33 <Vorpal> itidus21, but apart from that I tend to keep it clean. Having it dusty is annoying. And potentially dangerous during the spring due to my pollen allergies
20:35:15 <itidus21> what people don't realize is that social systems can break down as readily as mathematical systems
20:35:30 <itidus21> like suppose i was to remove a single term of my choosing from a haskell program
20:35:49 <itidus21> it could quite possibly have a cascading damage of the meaning of the program, right?
20:36:21 <Vorpal> probably would give you something like "Not in scope: x'"
20:36:46 <itidus21> ok i wont use haskell in my analogy
20:36:48 <Sgeo> I think the most likely scenario is failure to compile.
20:36:52 <Vorpal> (actually it would quote x' I think)
20:37:06 <Sgeo> But I can probably construct programs that would still compile, but would mean something else
20:37:10 <elliott> itidus21: do you mean definition or subexpression
20:37:23 <elliott> you can't shadow module functions in haskell
20:37:28 <elliott> without being explicit about it
20:37:30 <itidus21> i guess its not clear the bizzare idea i am driving at
20:37:33 <Sgeo> elliott, can a definition in a where clause shadow a definition in the main part of the file?
20:38:06 <itidus21> ok suppose i was to make a pinhole in a gas pipeline
20:38:22 <Vorpal> elliott, if you just remove a subexpression then yes. like x' = x + y transformed into x' = x
20:38:32 <itidus21> over time the gas would leak and leak until the whole house is a bomb waiting to go off
20:38:55 <elliott> Vorpal: that's not removing a subexpression
20:39:17 <Vorpal> elliott, it is literally removing a term though
20:39:20 <Sgeo> x' = f x turned into x' = x removes a subexpression, doesn't it?
20:39:27 <Vorpal> elliott, y there is a mathematical term
20:39:31 <elliott> it's removing a term and an operator
20:39:42 <Sgeo> I mean, f is a subexpression, right?
20:39:46 <itidus21> shit heres what im trying to say
20:40:02 <Sgeo> itidus21, it's important to odorize the gas so that people will notice if there's a leak?
20:40:11 <itidus21> a highly stable system is probably more vulnerable to change
20:40:14 <Sgeo> So that more kids don't die?
20:40:39 <itidus21> hmm this is gonna take a while :-D
20:40:43 <elliott> itidus21: that's the opposite of the definition of highly stable
20:40:55 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_London_School_explosion
20:41:08 <Phantom_Hoover> <itidus21> what people don't realize is that social systems can break down as readily as mathematical systems
20:41:23 <Sgeo> A highly inter-dependent system is unlikely to be highly stable?
20:41:28 <Sgeo> Is that what itidus21 wants to say?
20:41:28 <Phantom_Hoover> At least, if you're talking about the kind of precisely engineered formal systems usually used.
20:41:44 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I think that itidus21 lives in some horrible mirror universe.
20:42:03 <itidus21> are not all living systems highly inter-dependant?
20:42:06 <elliott> Vorpal: i think that itidus21 wants to make a profound observation.
20:42:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Social systems are pretty redundant, and the complexity of the individual units gives them a lot of flexibility.
20:42:20 <Vorpal> elliott, I further think he is not managing to do so very well so far
20:42:29 <elliott> Vorpal: i was not implying otherwise.
20:42:47 <itidus21> thats easy to say unless you are one of the mortalities in the exceptions
20:42:53 <Phantom_Hoover> The death of almost any individual can be recovered from with effectively no difficulty.
20:43:06 <Sgeo> Not in Dictatorships
20:43:07 <itidus21> except from the point of view of that individual :D
20:43:14 <itidus21> that individual cannot recover
20:43:19 <Sgeo> Well, I guess that's the almost.
20:43:21 <Vorpal> itidus21, that doesn't count when looking at the whole system
20:44:01 <itidus21> ok now we're getting closer to my mistakes
20:44:06 <Phantom_Hoover> And even in a dictatorship the death of the dictator can frequently be recovered from.
20:44:11 <elliott> Sgeo: itidus21 was referring to gradual collapse, I believe.
20:44:18 <elliott> Sgeo: But look at North Korea.
20:44:29 <elliott> They survived the death of a dictator; it strengthened the dictatorship, even.
20:44:47 <Sgeo> A poorly designed dictatorship, then.
20:45:05 <Sgeo> But then, any poorly designed anything might not account for the possibility of individual death
20:45:20 <elliott> Sgeo: itidus21 was talking about stable systems.
20:45:34 <itidus21> i dont quite know what i am talking about..
20:46:03 <oerjan> itidus21: finding a formal term for "the grass is greener on the other side" seems impossible
20:46:07 <Vorpal> itidus21, a /definition/ of a stable system is one that doesn't radically change due to a "small" input.
20:46:14 <Vorpal> such as the death of a person
20:46:20 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, and you should feel bad!
20:46:22 <olsner> north korea's dictator is dead? when did this happen?
20:46:34 <Sgeo> olsner, the father of the current one is dead, I think.
20:47:00 <Vorpal> itidus21, of course a three-person system might very well fail from the death of one person, but then I would argue that is a huge input. After all 33.33....% percent of the persons in the system died.
20:47:10 <itidus21> 1) i am bad at communication. 2) i spawned 2 topics in my weird rant just now
20:47:31 <itidus21> i think i can still derive value!
20:47:32 <Vorpal> But in a 100-person system say? then 1 person is 1% of the population. Not likely to fail from that.
20:47:54 <itidus21> so what do i mean by grass is greener... lets see...
20:48:01 <itidus21> ill explain carefully now why i even brought that up
20:48:11 <Sgeo> Of course, large inputs, such as a Gamma-Ray Burst, can destroy any social system
20:48:20 <oerjan> hm istr something about things collapsing in france after king louis 14 because he had made all the decisions personally
20:48:31 <Vorpal> I'm likely to disconnect. I'm moving cables.
20:48:34 <oerjan> and there was no one skilled enough to take over
20:48:50 <itidus21> suppose that someone lives in a depressing home for some reason.. i dunno what reason.. it could be the people are assholes
20:49:03 <elliott> itidus21: Is this hypothetical Based On A True Story.
20:49:19 <elliott> The best hypotheticals are!
20:49:38 <Sgeo> They're all Assholes, sir!
20:50:05 -!- Vorpal_ has joined.
20:50:15 <Vorpal_> <oerjan> and there was no one skilled enough to take over <-- oerjan, that wasn't a stable system
20:50:16 -!- Vorpal has quit (Disconnected by services).
20:50:22 -!- Vorpal_ has changed nick to Vorpal.
20:50:29 <itidus21> if i was in africa, while they have to worry about food and drink, i have to worry about assholes
20:50:42 <elliott> it's just that king louis 14 counts as a very large input
20:51:01 <itidus21> when faced with assholes everyday it is actually not that hard to imagine that the african food and drink would win in the cost-benefit
20:51:23 <itidus21> but where this fallacy really breaks is that in africa a person is probably just as likely to meet more assholes
20:51:48 <itidus21> so living with assholes could be compounded with poor food and drink
20:52:45 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway I think the best example to explain what a stable and unstable system means to itidus21 would be a physical example. Take a plank. Make a hole in one end. Hang it on a horizontal rod. Now it is stable. Rotate it so it is balanced above the rod. Now it isn't stable
20:52:45 <itidus21> bus stops don't sound that bad
20:53:00 <elliott> itidus21: So you don't actually have a bus stop-related point?
20:53:09 <itidus21> what is so bad about busstops?
20:53:19 <elliott> itidus21: Well, the point is that Vorpal was talking about bus stops being boring.
20:53:20 <itidus21> i don't see how any harm can come to you on account of busstops
20:53:27 <Vorpal> I'm not sure poor food and drink would lead to boredom
20:53:27 <elliott> Then you tried to relate it to the grass is always greener on the other side.
20:53:30 * Phantom_Hoover wonders why /r/math has far more activity on "things which mathematicians do" than actual maths.
20:53:33 <itidus21> i dont see how busstops can bore a person :D
20:53:46 <monqy> itidus21: what if assholes are gathered at the bus stop
20:53:50 <Vorpal> itidus21, it does when you wait for a bus that is 3 minutes late
20:53:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Because most people aren't mathematicians?
20:53:55 <Vorpal> and have nothing to do to pass the time
20:54:12 <Phantom_Hoover> <Sgeo> Of course, large inputs, such as a Gamma-Ray Burst, can destroy any social system
20:54:39 <oerjan> <ais523> probably more, actually, as good duelists would be able to get away with almost anything, so would be more litigious <-- istr this actually being a problem in medieval iceland
20:54:43 <Vorpal> itidus21, that sort of situation, is really the only time I ever get bored
20:54:46 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, Go Look At Some X-Rays.
20:54:48 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, that's a) wrong in this context and b) doesn't even explain the content.
20:54:49 <Vorpal> itidus21, otherwise I tend to find things to do
20:54:49 <itidus21> Vorpal: so while one waits those 3 minutes, its as if one is being poisoned.. and it takes hours afterwards for that poison to dissipate?
20:54:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Gamma-Ray Burst are Sgeo's favourite metal band!
20:55:01 <Vorpal> itidus21, no? Where did I say that
20:55:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: (a) Do you really think most /r/math subscribers are mathematicians? (b) People who aren't mathematicians don't understand most mathematics.
20:55:51 <itidus21> i think i'm being way too literal about the busstop thing :-D
20:56:07 <monqy> metaphorical bus stops are the best bus stops, after all
20:56:08 <Vorpal> itidus21, you just said "<itidus21> i wonder how boredom happens"
20:56:22 <Vorpal> and my answer was "while waiting for public transport and having nothing to do to pass the time"
20:56:40 <Vorpal> itidus21, to me that is basically the only times when I'm really bored
20:57:00 <Vorpal> no but I live in a pretty small town
20:57:15 <Vorpal> but there are always books to read, or web pages to browse or stuff to code or whatever
20:57:26 <Vorpal> except when waiting for the bus
20:57:28 <itidus21> maybe a lot of it was about growing up
20:57:35 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: (a) Do you really think most /r/math subscribers are mathematicians? (b) People who aren't mathematicians don't understand most mathematics.
20:57:36 <oerjan> with roaming duelists seeking out weak people to challenge
20:57:43 <olsner> Vorpal: sounds like your town consists of only your house
20:57:49 <elliott> <oerjan> with roaming duelists seeking out weak people to challenge
20:57:55 <Vorpal> olsner, well, 20 000 inhabitants iirc.
20:58:06 <Vorpal> olsner, still, meh. I'm an introvert.
20:58:09 <elliott> oerjan: That's the plot to Des Cartes II: Des Harder.
20:58:28 <Vorpal> elliott, sounds like a bad porn movie
20:58:37 <monqy> the best porn movie??
20:58:42 <itidus21> what i'm imagining is that if i was in finland i might find it easier to focus and concentrate for some reason
20:58:58 <itidus21> that is the grass is greener effect i actually specifically had in mind
20:59:03 <elliott> Aren't you putting des cartes before the horse???
20:59:12 <Vorpal> <elliott> <oerjan> with roaming duelists seeking out weak people to challenge <-- wait, where was the *start* of that sentence?
20:59:35 <Vorpal> or is oerjan just a extremely slow typer?
20:59:43 <itidus21> i find that social circles tend to replicate themselves in a persons life
20:59:49 <oerjan> Vorpal: i just had an afterthought
20:59:57 <Vorpal> oerjan, what was the context for it
21:00:02 <oerjan> the first part is about a page above
21:00:04 <itidus21> its always the same kinds of people filling roles in each others lives
21:00:05 <Vorpal> oerjan, it is not on my screen
21:00:27 <itidus21> so that no matter where you go, that same social circle will form around you
21:00:27 <oerjan> <ais523> probably more, actually, as good duelists would be able to get away with almost anything, so would be more litigious <-- istr this actually being a problem in medieval iceland
21:00:40 <itidus21> so you can't escape it simply by travelling :-D
21:00:51 <Vorpal> itidus21, and why would you want to?
21:00:53 <olsner> hmm, I thought for a while you actually meant dualist, imagining that as being some category of mathematician
21:01:01 <Sgeo> elliott, off-topic still, but I think you should watch Puella Magi Madoka Magica.
21:01:07 <Vorpal> itidus21, I like my friends and family
21:01:26 <olsner> roaming around and challenging people's ideas
21:01:49 <elliott> olsner: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dualism_(philosophy_of_mind)
21:01:58 <itidus21> Vorpal: thats all you need in the world. you've won the game.
21:02:09 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:02:17 <Vorpal> itidus21, oh also, I'm waiting for windows to boot atm, I'm not bored because of the slow disk making it take ages. I'm annoyed however. But meanwhile I'm chatting here on my laptop
21:02:22 <itidus21> however i have this theory that a person can't in the game so easily.
21:02:36 <itidus21> so something else must be eating away at you if your social life is in order
21:02:41 <elliott> OH NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
21:02:53 <olsner> elliott: oh, that's probably what I was really thinking about
21:02:53 <elliott> Guys, I'm about to suffer severe time dilation and being-ripped-apartness.
21:03:01 <elliott> I'll see you... on the other side...
21:03:04 <Vorpal> itidus21, well there was that skeleton in the cellars (true story)
21:03:13 <oerjan> "Professional duelists used holmgangs as a form of legalized robbery; they could claim rights to land, women, or property, and then prove their claims in the duel at the expense of the legitimate owner. Many sagas describe berserks who abused holmgang in this way. In large part due to such practices, holmgangs were outlawed in Iceland in 1006, as a result of the duel between Gunnlaugr Ormstunga and Hrafn Önundarson,[2] and in Norway in 1014."
21:03:16 <olsner> elliott: vortex of fluidity?
21:03:20 <Vorpal> itidus21, It was a bird skeleton.
21:03:31 <itidus21> i mean for "me" what "I" need is to like my family and friends
21:03:35 <monqy> vortices only make me think vortex based mathematics sorry
21:04:13 <elliott> itidus21: That's what they told me yesterday.
21:05:14 <itidus21> elliott: it sounds like time to consult the i ching
21:05:23 <elliott> itidus21: How can I do that from inside a vortex????
21:05:42 <elliott> But it only connects me to this channel and one website.
21:05:43 <ais523> elliott: tame the vortex, then use conflict to get it to engulf you anyway
21:05:45 <itidus21> don't worry.. i have the book.. it doesn't matter if i don't exist
21:05:47 <ais523> the glitch is known as Crassworm's Hotel
21:05:59 <elliott> ais523: That sounds unethical.
21:06:02 <itidus21> it doesn't matter that i don't know how to use it properly
21:06:24 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:06:39 <itidus21> do we have a random number generator in here?
21:06:40 <Vorpal> ais523, there is a glitch there?
21:06:50 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway what does that result in? getting no damage?
21:06:56 <ais523> if you take the ring of conflict off, yes
21:07:02 <ais523> the problem is, it's mostly only useful on Air
21:07:02 <itidus21> olsner: no wait.. i need it to be in the 1 - 64 range
21:07:22 <ais523> and by the time you get there, vortices do such pitiful damage that you can heal up inside them even without using the glitch
21:07:37 <itidus21> olsner: ok a second number from 1 to 6
21:08:23 <ais523> !perl print (int (rand 6) + 1)
21:08:26 <elliott> <itidus21> do we have a random number generator in here?
21:08:29 <ais523> itidus21: there you go
21:08:34 <itidus21> i need a pair of numbers... the first being from 1 to 64 "7" .. the second number being 2
21:09:07 <ais523> itidus21: does the number need to be /random/, or /arbitrary/?
21:09:12 <ais523> if random, I suggest you use an actual d64
21:10:00 <Vorpal> <ais523> and by the time you get there, vortices do such pitiful damage that you can heal up inside them even without using the glitch <-- not if you go for low score?
21:10:16 <ais523> Vorpal: teleport them away afterwards, I guess, still doesn't cost score
21:10:18 <itidus21> elliott: so just to make this clear for me.. the number in the range of 1 to 64 is 6, and the number in the range 1 to 6 is 2, right?
21:10:28 <ais523> although if you're going minscore, you're going to be doing the planes with pets and/or a tooled horn
21:10:41 <elliott> itidus21: assuming those ranges are inclusive
21:11:43 <itidus21> When you know what is true, you do not have to hide your own strength. You will earn the trust and admiration of others even though you have done nothing to seek it.
21:11:54 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
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21:12:49 <oerjan> i don't think this random selection was fair overall, as there wouldn't have been a rethrow if the first numbers hadn't been ambiguous which were which
21:13:21 <itidus21> its a cheap shitty i ching book. i am not using it by any proper means
21:13:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: the vortex shall consume us all
21:14:00 <oerjan> itidus21: sheesh, you could at least throw a coin per line :P
21:14:11 <itidus21> i threw out the coins in the rubbish
21:14:22 <itidus21> during a weird phase i went through
21:14:55 <itidus21> oerjan: suffice to say the chinese would love PRNG if they had one back then
21:15:06 <ais523> elliott: hmm, what distinguishes yearso from other linkers?
21:15:08 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> rip us all, killed by stack overflow 1995-2011. <-- I assume you mean the site? It tends to be quite terrible.
21:15:09 <monqy> usually im 6 or 2 but today i can make exception
21:15:12 <oerjan> itidus21: i'd be shocked, except i once threw away a die for an equally weird reason.
21:15:28 <ais523> (I would so call the linker I'm currently writing yearso if giving it a silly name were appropriate, but it isn't; at the moment, it's imaginatively named "linker")
21:15:53 <itidus21> for some reason, humans throughout the millenia have invented all manner of natural PRNGs
21:16:09 <Sgeo> Do die count as PRNGs?
21:16:31 <monqy> how about really big coins
21:16:39 <monqy> you can't flip it it's too big
21:16:43 <ais523> Sgeo: no, they're imperfect RNGs, but aren't pseudorandom by any sensible definition
21:16:47 <oerjan> it's debatable whether you can ever get rid of the P in our physical universe
21:17:18 <Sgeo> ais523, well, if we ignore small-scale quantum randomness...
21:17:25 <ais523> oerjan: a probably foolproof definition of "PRNG" is that it's possible to reseed it
21:17:27 <Sgeo> Which presumably does not have much of an impact on die.
21:17:31 <ais523> the physical universe can't be reseeded
21:17:34 <oerjan> and if there _is_ any truth to divination, you probably cannot.
21:17:37 <elliott> <ais523> elliott: hmm, what distinguishes yearso from other linkers?
21:17:56 <elliott> ais523: i don't have a sufficiently funny response to this, but i want to acknowledge it as a good question
21:17:56 <Vorpal> <ais523> Sgeo: no, they're imperfect RNGs, but aren't pseudorandom by any sensible definition <-- if the state of the world in the area that can affect the die is taken as seed?
21:18:03 <oerjan> ais523: well ok if the pseudo means entirely predictable rather than imperfect.
21:18:04 <elliott> ais523: and Yearso is a good name for a company
21:18:09 <elliott> ais523: modulo the fact that it's unclear how to pronounce it
21:18:21 <ais523> it's obvious how to pronounce it apart from the s
21:18:36 <elliott> itidus21: if anything it's a non-P RNG
21:18:45 <elliott> there's true randomness at the quantum level
21:18:59 <elliott> see e.g. HotBits, which generates true random numbers by monitoring radioactive decay
21:19:02 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> rip us all, killed by stack overflow 1995-2011. <-- should i be scared? i also made my first SO comments just days ago. only 11 reputation so far, though.
21:19:20 <Sgeo> elliott, or is there? (many-worlds etc)
21:19:24 <itidus21> elliott: such talk is not conducive to escaping the vortex
21:19:34 <Sgeo> ...escaping the vortex?
21:20:04 <elliott> Sgeo: the interpretation doesn't matter, what matters is that the universe /we/ observe is truly random
21:20:11 <itidus21> the elliottonian vortex is related to the matrix of solidity
21:20:17 <elliott> i.e. even if many worlds is true, we're still /deciding/ random decisions with a true RNG
21:20:35 <Vorpal> <elliott> there's true randomness at the quantum level <-- as far as we understand the universe currently at least
21:20:37 <elliott> although, it could be that it's a PRNG with a seed with more bits than our universe
21:20:42 <elliott> and that would be indistinguishable, I think
21:20:46 <Vorpal> elliott, it could all be emulated
21:20:55 <elliott> Vorpal: (a) I believe it is generally accepted, (b) that's the point.
21:20:59 <itidus21> or could it all be a function of our collective wills?
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21:21:06 <elliott> <itidus21> the elliottonian vortex is related to the matrix of solidity
21:21:16 <Sgeo> itidus21, ...what?
21:21:26 <elliott> NO!! I WAS AWARDED MY FIRST SILVER BADGE!!!
21:21:40 <itidus21> determinism and non-determinism are part of the universe
21:21:44 <Sgeo> I tried to answer on SO once
21:21:54 <Sgeo> I didn't actually answer the question though, and my answer was deleted
21:22:08 <Sgeo> I should have made a comment on the question or something, I guess.
21:22:17 <monqy> I don't so. should i?
21:22:25 <Vorpal> elliott, it could be a PRNG is generating all the quantum randomness for an emulated universe
21:22:37 <itidus21> things happen because you make them happen
21:22:46 <elliott> Vorpal: not with an insufficient number of bits, I don't believe
21:22:55 <itidus21> i am also open to the idea that things are deterministic
21:22:56 <elliott> although I think it could be done by using some of the universal state /itself/
21:23:02 <elliott> e.g., sufficiently far away state
21:23:04 <elliott> I really don't know exactly
21:23:05 <itidus21> so long as i am not forced to stick to that view
21:23:10 <Vorpal> elliott, err, does anything work with an insufficiant number of bits for the task at hand?
21:23:22 <itidus21> a dice doesn't roll itself.. a human rolls it because a human wants a random number
21:23:24 <elliott> Vorpal: you are misinterpreting me
21:23:38 <oerjan> elliott: there are theorems in complexity theory that say you can make a PRNG of one complexity class that cannot be distinguished from true random by one of a lower one. P and LOGSPACE being one example, iirc.
21:23:40 <Sgeo> itidus21, unless the die is on the ground on a sufficiently windy day?
21:23:47 <elliott> Vorpal: by my very limited understanding of quantum mechanics, a "boring" PRNG is ruled out.
21:23:56 <elliott> (perhaps it counts as a hidden variable? dunno)
21:24:17 <itidus21> die only rolls because of something happening in humans thoughts like "make dice" "roll dice"
21:24:19 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't know enough about quantum mechanics either
21:24:25 <Vorpal> so you may be right for all I know
21:24:27 <elliott> itidus21: isn't that just The Secret
21:24:37 <elliott> aka one of the worst books of the millennium so far
21:24:54 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_(book)
21:24:54 <Sgeo> elliott, I think he's either doing that or trying to get at a "What is a die" thingy?
21:25:03 <elliott> tl;dr "believe you're healthy and YOU WILL BE HEALTHY IT'S MAGIC!"
21:25:07 <Sgeo> monqy, OUR MINDS CONTROL REALITY OTHER THAN BY TRIVIAL WAYS
21:25:10 <itidus21> its a cube of plastic or wood...
21:25:20 <oklopol> oerjan: what's a true random sequence? not produced by an algorithm?
21:25:28 <elliott> Sgeo: well of course they do
21:25:33 <elliott> it controls your body, for one
21:25:41 <Sgeo> elliott, that's what I meant by trivial.
21:25:48 <elliott> to quote a person, "fsvo trivial"
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21:26:18 <itidus21> the problem of the butterfly effect is that the impact of the butterflys wings is "uncontrolled"
21:26:50 <elliott> Sgeo: Vortex measurements.
21:27:06 <elliott> Sgeo: the latest ones are available at http://tinyurl.com/dxuq5eo
21:27:56 <itidus21> sorry to all the mathematicians for my very unmathematical comments
21:28:00 <Vorpal> itidus21, the butterfly effect is just about the system being chaotic
21:28:14 <itidus21> it flaps its wings with its mind
21:28:19 <elliott> Vorpal: he's got a point!!
21:28:21 <Vorpal> yes but that is not what the butterfly effect is about
21:28:33 <Vorpal> the term butterfly effect has a precise meaning
21:28:38 <itidus21> im... really... fucking annoying to argue with
21:28:53 <oerjan> oklopol: erm a sequence of independent, equally distributed elements; if it's infinite then with probability 1 it cannot be produced by an algorithm since those that can are countable...
21:28:54 <Sgeo> Leaves falling don't have a mind.
21:29:02 <Vorpal> itidus21, you just described people like elliott and me there
21:29:07 <elliott> itidus21: it's not really an argument, it's more just everyone else trying to explain to you
21:29:08 <Sgeo> Elevator malfunctions don't have a mind.
21:29:30 <elliott> Elevator Malfunction is Sgeo's second-favourite band.
21:29:54 <Sgeo> Someone died in an elevator malfunction recently :(
21:30:18 <itidus21> it's not for us to unravel the secrets of the will, the will-not, conciousness, transcendance, determinism, non-determinism
21:30:21 <oklopol> oerjan: so how do you run the algo, obviously no finite segment of it tells you anything about the distribution
21:30:24 <elliott> Sgeo: Thousands of people just died in <vastly more common cause> recently
21:30:34 <elliott> Sgeo: Or do you only care about the elevator malfunction ones
21:30:40 <Vorpal> <itidus21> it's not for us to unravel the secrets of the will, the will-not, conciousness, transcendance, determinism, non-determinism <-- why not?
21:30:48 <elliott> Vorpal: because itidus21 doesn't know how to
21:31:06 <Sgeo> elliott, elevator malfunction was just the most immediately accessible mindless cause that could be said to have a butterfly effect
21:31:15 <elliott> Sgeo: I was responding to <Sgeo> Someone died in an elevator malfunction recently :(
21:31:20 <Vorpal> elliott, to be fair, neither do I know exactly how to do do that completely. Won't stop me from giving it a try though
21:31:22 <itidus21> smarter people than us have tried.. it ends up in teaching people the virtues of not stealing
21:31:35 <Sgeo> I mean, car crashes are the most accessible horrible death to me for some reason, but they're mostly ... I think mindless would be the wrong word
21:31:52 <Sgeo> elliott, well, I was explaining why elevator malfunction was so accessible to my mind
21:31:56 <elliott> Sgeo: More mindless than an elevator going wrong?
21:32:04 <oerjan> oklopol: do _i_ look like i've read the proof?
21:32:12 <elliott> Car crashes have thinking involved being responsible at the time of the accident.
21:32:26 <elliott> Elevator malfunctions are probably mostly due to unthought mistakes far in the past.
21:32:48 <Sgeo> elliott, I was thinking of elevator malfunction as more mindless
21:33:05 <itidus21> i would say everyone should ride horses or horse-and-carts... for various good reasons.. except accelerating population leads to CBDs that everyone has to race to
21:33:22 <itidus21> the evolution of the home-office may well be the devolution of the car
21:33:30 <elliott> You can't say Q.E.D. when oklopol's around.
21:33:30 <Vorpal> elliott, QED I know the meaning of
21:33:33 <itidus21> wouldn't it be nice if noone needed an office anymore
21:33:33 <Sgeo> itidus21, I'd say everyone should ride in computer-controlled cars.
21:33:39 <Vorpal> elliott, oh? So what does the Z stand for?
21:33:47 <Vorpal> and why can't you say QED?
21:33:50 <Sgeo> No more human drivers.
21:33:52 <itidus21> if people could re-distribute themselves across the world via the internet
21:33:57 <elliott> Vorpal: Either zemonstrandum or zarathustra.
21:34:00 <itidus21> why drive when you can tele-commute
21:34:07 <Vorpal> Sgeo, problem: driving is fun.
21:34:15 <Sgeo> Vorpal, fuck fun.
21:34:17 <oerjan> <itidus21> smarter people than us have tried.. it ends up in teaching people the virtues of not stealing <-- scientific progress means that it doesn't matter how smart the ancients were, they didn't have access to the _tools_ to solve the questions.
21:34:18 <elliott> Sgeo: Cool, it'll be like public transport but less efficient.
21:34:29 <elliott> And more expensive and polluting (fuck fun, right?).
21:34:36 <Vorpal> Sgeo, won't stop people from complaining loudly.
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21:35:14 <itidus21> anyway, my comment about grass is greener very much applies to interplanetary travel
21:35:29 <itidus21> we already know we'll fuck up every planet we visit if we visit them
21:35:34 <Sgeo> elliott, how would it be like public transportation?
21:35:44 <Vorpal> <elliott> Sgeo: Cool, it'll be like public transport but less efficient. <-- less boredom
21:35:56 <elliott> Sgeo: In that it's a massive investment and overhaul and people who drive currently won't like the idea of it?
21:36:04 <Vorpal> elliott, at least there is less waiting involved
21:36:20 <elliott> Vorpal: Waiting is basically a function of how much money you put into the system...
21:36:23 <Sgeo> itidus21, part of a reason to do interplanetary travel is if something happens to one planet, humanity goes on.
21:36:32 <Vorpal> elliott, for public transport? Hm.
21:36:34 <elliott> Vorpal: Anyway, good trains are way faster than even auto-driven cars could go.
21:36:46 <elliott> Although sure, the psychology is different.
21:36:56 <Sgeo> elliott, they can't go everywhere that auto-driven cars can.
21:37:05 <Sgeo> Such as into a driveway.
21:37:12 <Vorpal> elliott, certainly they are faster, but less convenient if you don't live near a train station. And yes the psychology is indeed different
21:37:15 <itidus21> "<itidus21> what i'm imagining is that if i was in finland i might find it easier to focus and concentrate for some reason" .. same thing we as a species imagine about interplanetarry travel
21:37:24 <elliott> Sgeo: So fuck fun, but don't fuck a little bit of walking every now and then?
21:37:41 <elliott> Vorpal: That's also a function of money. :p
21:38:07 <elliott> Sgeo: Anyway, the areas where public transport can't go are the areas where it would be much more difficult for auto-driven cars.
21:38:17 <Vorpal> elliott, very few can afford having a train station built right next to your house :P
21:38:19 <elliott> Due to less-defined/lower-quality roads, less mapping, etc.
21:38:42 <elliott> Vorpal: It's called public transport; the government is the one paying the money here. But yes, taxes would increase quite sharply if everyone got that.
21:39:03 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway trains are less reliable here in Sweden
21:39:06 <pikhq> elliott: Actually, the primary barrier to public transportation at least *here* is a function of population density.
21:39:19 <elliott> Vorpal: The train stations should rent out electric cars that run on tramline-type things that go to your doors. :p
21:39:24 <pikhq> You couldn't really keep a train station afloat here.
21:39:29 <elliott> You just put the coins in the slot, get in, get out, and it zips back.
21:39:29 <Vorpal> elliott, the lesson is that we as a snow-heavy land should NOT buy trains from countries that don't have much snow
21:39:41 <elliott> pikhq: Yeah, well, the solution is to live somewhere less terrible.
21:39:59 <elliott> Vorpal: TBH, for local transport I'd tend to prefer underground rail.
21:40:02 <itidus21> if people did away with skyscrapers and central business districts and did everything over the net, it would surely reduce traffic considerably
21:40:12 <elliott> Long-distance transport can have nice fast overworld lines.
21:40:15 <pikhq> Also: it wouldn't take much more to get self-driving cars common.
21:40:31 <elliott> pikhq: I am pretty sure most people would not buy self-driving cars unless they had no choice.
21:40:32 <itidus21> you could get internet connection as a tax write off
21:40:45 <elliott> /Especially/ anyone over the age of 35.
21:41:08 <Vorpal> elliott, not cost effective outside bit towns
21:41:18 <Vorpal> elliott, I doubt there is a Hexham metro :P
21:41:20 <pikhq> The currently extant ones require mapping of the roads.
21:41:33 <elliott> Vorpal: Do you want to bet on how much money goes into road construction and maintanence?
21:41:47 <Vorpal> elliott, quite a bit. But tunnels are expensive
21:41:48 <elliott> Not to mention the money accidents cost.
21:41:53 <elliott> Public healthcare and all that.
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21:42:29 <pikhq> Also, do you seriously think people drive because they want to control the vehicle?
21:42:42 <pikhq> They drive because everything's too far to walk to.
21:43:13 <Sgeo> I think itidus21 may have said this before, which makes me feel weird, but: Just _one_ accident with an auto-driven car, and we can say bye-bye to the dream, probably.
21:43:18 <Vorpal> pikhq, there are those who find driving fun. Why else would there be driving and racing games.
21:43:28 <elliott> pikhq: If you seriously think most people would be fine ceding driving control completely to a computer... then I really don't know what to say to you, but I invite you to go up to people on the street and ask them.
21:43:34 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yeah, but they're not a significant factor in adoption of automatic cars.
21:43:42 <elliott> Especially literally anyone who sees driving as a competition.
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21:46:07 <pikhq> elliott: You're talking about people who do shit like put on makeup while driving.
21:46:22 <elliott> pikhq: That... does not even remotely come close to being a rebuttal.
21:47:55 <pikhq> What I'm saying is: given driving habits here, it's basically inevitable that people will have automatic cars and use them pretty much of the time, just so that they can do something during their half-hour commutes.
21:48:52 <pikhq> Given that they already risk their lives *dramatically* just to do that...
21:49:25 <Vorpal> anyway I wouldn't trust a computer to handle everything when driving. For large roads sure. But when parking on a uneven non-surfaced (I mean, grass) parking place out in the middle of the woods?
21:49:42 <Vorpal> when going to stuff like tourist attractions
21:49:58 <pikhq> Vorpal: Fairly small case, though.
21:50:00 <Vorpal> or during bad winter weather
21:50:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, have I not previously expressed my scepticism that you still don't understand the pluperfect.
21:50:10 <Vorpal> pikhq, not in Sweden. We don't put asphalt everywhere.
21:50:13 <HackEgo> 2008-09-13.txt:21:08:08: <oerjan> "hygienic" macros which take automatic care of naming conflicts
21:50:29 <pikhq> Vorpal: It's still a fairly small case. I mean, how often do you park?
21:50:34 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.32433
21:50:41 <Vorpal> pikhq, well, every time I drive into the garage?
21:50:53 <itidus21> 2011-05-14.txt:00:42:11: <pikhq_> The safety concerns of an automatic car need to be compared against human drivers.
21:51:01 <Vorpal> pikhq, I probably park several times per day
21:51:04 <elliott> pikhq: Wait, you want automatic cars /with manual override/ control?
21:51:05 <pikhq> But that's, what, 2 minutes of your drive?
21:51:08 <oerjan> pikhq: hm perhaps what will happen is that cars get the ability to drive automatically or be controlled as you wish, and then gradually people will stop controlling their cars due to the convenience?
21:51:33 <itidus21> pikhq: you discussed it 7 months ago apparently :)
21:51:34 <pikhq> elliott: It would be somewhat necessary, at least given some of the broken infrastructure around here.
21:51:45 <Vorpal> elliott, that is like a more advanced cruise control
21:51:50 <elliott> pikhq: Great, so now people will override it whenever there is, e.g. a car in front of them!
21:52:00 <elliott> And then expect the system to continue working correctly even though they massively wrecked the parameters for whatever reason.
21:52:11 <elliott> Now it's about ten times as hard to write the software and has absolutely no safety benefits.
21:53:11 <oerjan> elliott: maybe anti-collision features could only be overruled at low speeds.
21:53:26 <pikhq> elliott: Says the man who hasn't seen a country where literally everybody drives.
21:53:26 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway the problem is it takes a HUGE amount of work to handle every situation. And if it doesn't and lacks manual override, then it is worthless
21:53:38 <elliott> oerjan: I am sceptical that the systems are so "modular".
21:53:54 <elliott> oerjan: I think a lot of it is essentially generated based on real-world driving data.
21:53:59 <elliott> At least I think Google's was quite like that.
21:54:19 <elliott> pikhq: You realise a shit ton of driving goes on in the UK, right?
21:55:02 <elliott> oerjan: Anyway, I'm not sure how an anti-collision feature could still interact with manual driving.
21:55:08 <elliott> oerjan: You automatically swerve if you try and drive into a car?
21:55:24 <elliott> That sounds... easy to backfire.
21:56:13 <pikhq> elliott: ~90% of the population commutes via car?
21:56:34 <elliott> pikhq: Do you have sourcse for that statistic?
21:56:39 <elliott> Not sceptical, just curious.
21:57:12 <elliott> pikhq: Also, 90% of the population, or 90% of the working population?
21:57:21 <pikhq> https://encrypted.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=commuting+in+the+US&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CDcQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.census.gov%2Fprod%2F2011pubs%2Facs-15.pdf&ei=F23qTuSCLpPqgAeK2_CKCQ&usg=AFQjCNEdBXyfZTDYeUlAGmNhrO7KBiBFfw
21:57:51 <pikhq> I want the URL, not the "spew your shit on top of it" URL.
21:58:07 <pikhq> http://www.census.gov/prod/2011pubs/acs-15.pdf
21:58:34 <elliott> pikhq: Car is ~75% of commuters
21:58:40 <pikhq> That's driving alone.
21:58:42 <elliott> Citation: http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/lmac/commuting-to-work/2011/commuting-to-work---2011.html
21:59:07 <pikhq> Other highlights: "Workers took an average of 25 minutes to get to work".
22:00:36 <elliott> However if you don't think we have large, high-traffic roads with frequent jams and all that, you're crazy
22:00:55 <elliott> We just utilise road transport a bit less within cities
22:01:24 <elliott> (Especially London, but that's because road transport in London is basically impossible, from what I gather.)
22:01:25 <oklopol> small? 25 minutes is like the whole day :o
22:01:28 -!- kmc has joined.
22:01:48 <oklopol> if it took me 25 minutes to go to work, i would not go to work
22:01:51 <pikhq> oklopol: That's one way.
22:02:07 <oklopol> and i represent the majority as usual.
22:03:08 <pikhq> Also, ~2% of the population in that study had a 90 minute commute. One way.
22:03:40 <elliott> pikhq: Oh, that was a US figure?
22:03:47 <oklopol> that's like riding a bike through finland every day
22:04:13 <elliott> pikhq: Because UK figures are 1-15 min: 42%, 16-30 min: 33%
22:04:22 <elliott> So it's not like US commutes are significantly longer.
22:04:35 <pikhq> elliott: Yeah, that was a US figure.
22:04:57 <pikhq> elliott: You can also expect to drive for anything else you do.
22:04:58 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNS7AtliBFM
22:05:15 <elliott> Yes, pikhq, our supermarkets, too, have carparks.
22:05:30 <Vorpal> <elliott> oerjan: Anyway, I'm not sure how an anti-collision feature could still interact with manual driving. <-- you still get unpredictable parameters, what if a suicidal pedestrian throws himself in front of a car, and the distance is too short to brake.
22:05:36 <elliott> The fact is that for the US it's "everyone" and the UK it's "a lot of/most people".
22:05:41 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, I live well inside the second largest city in Scotland, and almost all of the groceries in this house are brought here by car.
22:05:50 <elliott> It's not like we're some utopia of everything being in walking distance and the rest being perfect public transport.
22:06:08 <Vorpal> elliott, that would be like Monaco, (walking distance)
22:06:12 <elliott> <Vorpal> <elliott> oerjan: Anyway, I'm not sure how an anti-collision feature could still interact with manual driving. <-- you still get unpredictable parameters, what if a suicidal pedestrian throws himself in front of a car, and the distance is too short to brake.
22:06:18 <elliott> Vorpal: You think a human operator would do well there?
22:06:34 <Vorpal> elliott, but I think an automatic car would do just as badly
22:06:41 <elliott> Yes. So it doesn't matter.
22:06:47 <elliott> They're the same, so it's irrelevant.
22:07:03 <elliott> (Of course more people would be upset if an automatic car did it.)
22:07:27 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Reboooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo*NO CARRIER).
22:07:34 <elliott> Vorpal: Also, I doubt that's a fairly common method of suicide.
22:07:52 <Vorpal> elliott, also what would an automatic car do if it was a question of "save pedestrian" vs "save people in car"
22:07:52 <elliott> If there's a pavement, then it's probably in an area where a car banging into you would not be fast enough to kill you.
22:08:18 <elliott> Vorpal: I very much doubt an automatic car can reason about moral situations, dude.
22:08:31 <Vorpal> elliott, like a pedestrian in front, too short distance to brake, but you could still change your course. Except this is a cliff road and there is a deep drop to the side of the road...
22:09:03 <Phantom_Hoover> <Vorpal> elliott, also what would an automatic car do if it was a question of "save pedestrian" vs "save people in car"
22:09:04 <pikhq> "[...] the largest Asda Supercentre with a nett sales floor of over 120,000sqft." "Walmart Supercenters are hypermarkets [...] with an average of about 197,000 square feet."
22:09:15 <elliott> Vorpal: I imagine it would swerve; it's probably not very easy to detect drops like that, and obstacles are not that easy to distinguish from one another.
22:09:18 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, save themselves, if they have time to think about it
22:09:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Kill both :P
22:09:33 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Also comparing largest with average.
22:09:36 <Vorpal> elliott, a human drive would NOT swerve in that case.
22:09:36 <elliott> pikhq: Oh shit, our supermarkets are smaller!
22:10:04 <elliott> If humans are our benchmark for how a car should drive, we're gonna get really shitty self-driving cars.
22:10:15 <Vorpal> elliott, well if there are like 3 people in the car and one pedestrian, the automatic car would have taken a worse decision.
22:10:17 <elliott> Vorpal: If this is a cliff road, where the fuck is the pedestrian coming from?
22:10:35 <Vorpal> elliott, could be a suicidal one?
22:10:48 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway that was just an example. You could construct other scenarios like that
22:10:49 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't think you understand how cliffs work?
22:11:01 <Phantom_Hoover> <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, save themselves, if they have time to think about it
22:11:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Also pigs would fly if they had time to think about it.
22:11:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Do pigs live busy lives, usually?
22:11:36 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well, they might swerve due to panic. Or they might be aware of the drop and not swerve
22:11:47 <elliott> I'm pretty sure most people would swerve.
22:12:16 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, anyway there is such a thing as braking distance
22:12:19 <elliott> I know what the automatic car should do.
22:12:30 <monqy> i was thinking fly too
22:12:36 <elliott> It should swerve, but then swerve even more, so that before it actually falls down, the air propels it back on to the road going the other way.
22:12:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: But that would be good too.
22:12:57 <elliott> It'd just swerve and everyone inside would go "NOOOOO" and then the wings would come out the side and it would fly off into the sunset.
22:13:09 <elliott> Orchestra plays uplifting music, etc.
22:13:16 <Vorpal> I'm still waiting for my flying car
22:13:29 <elliott> Actors get lots of money, Oscars.
22:13:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I don't know, you know the kind of music that always plays when things go well for once in a film and it's near the end.
22:13:55 <Sgeo> It's going to be impossible to get people to see the lives saved by auto-driven cars.
22:13:59 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, benny hills theme
22:14:05 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, it is always appropriate
22:14:20 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, are you sure?
22:14:23 <Sgeo> It's not like you can put in a paper "This person was almost in a crash, but thanks to being in a computer-controlled car, survived"
22:14:40 <elliott> Sgeo: It's funny because you think papers convince people?
22:14:42 <Sgeo> Or, well, "This person was driving drunk. Nothing of consequence happened"
22:14:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Just slap something by Two Steps From Hell over it; that's what they're there for, after all.
22:14:48 <Sgeo> elliott, news media does.
22:14:55 <monqy> moral of the story drive drunk
22:15:06 <Sgeo> Erm, not driving
22:15:08 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I'm not sure what/who that/they is/are.
22:15:12 <Sgeo> "In the driver seat of a car"
22:15:26 <Sgeo> "Nothing bad happened, because the car wasn't driven by the person, but rather, a computer."
22:16:05 <Sgeo> Vorpal, exactly my point
22:16:07 <Phantom_Hoover> At the age of twenty, Sgeo begins to suss out how the news works.
22:16:20 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, I'm 22.
22:16:28 <monqy> sgeo is 22???????????????????
22:16:43 <Phantom_Hoover> monqy, it's amazing, and then you think about it and feel sad.
22:16:57 <Vorpal> I thought he was younger than me
22:16:58 <elliott> Sgeo: Are you saying that news media actually causes people to change their strong preconceptions.
22:17:10 <elliott> Vorpal: Bow before your elder!
22:17:22 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm equally old
22:17:31 <elliott> Sgeo: What month were you born.
22:17:36 <Sgeo> elliott, if someone hears about accident X more often than they hear about accident Y, even if accident Y is more common, they're going to be scared of X
22:17:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo being older than Vorpal is somehow odder than him being older than me, elliott or monqy.
22:17:46 <Vorpal> well okay maybe he is older
22:17:51 <elliott> Sgeo: Because what month was Vorpal born.
22:18:00 <Vorpal> elliott, the current month
22:18:12 <Vorpal> (except not this instance of it)
22:18:50 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I thought he was like 20 or so
22:19:05 <Vorpal> elliott, well, I meant about now
22:19:23 <monqy> I have trouble imagining sgeo not being a kid
22:19:36 <elliott> So, um, how do you word a ping on a bug report this guy has been ignoring me for 6 days ;_;
22:19:37 <Vorpal> monqy, aren't you a kid too?
22:19:40 <Sgeo> I'm still treated like a kid >:(
22:19:44 <monqy> yeah i'm a kid oops
22:19:46 <elliott> Sgeo: That's because you still act like a kid.
22:19:49 <Vorpal> Sgeo, that is because you act like one
22:20:04 <elliott> olsner: THAT'S IMPOLITE!!!
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22:20:36 <olsner> elliott: a bit obnoxious maybe
22:21:09 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:21:44 <elliott> olsner: Well, my last comment was many paragraphs long and basically said "rather than minorly breaking API compatibility, fairly majorly break it and this works brilliantly" :P
22:22:03 <elliott> (Although "fairly majorly" is relative, since the relevant consumers of this API are like 15 lines long maximum.)
22:22:27 <olsner> oh, ok, you've moved the bug into the "wait for the perfect solution to become clear" state
22:22:34 <olsner> this state has no possible next state
22:22:36 <elliott> olsner: I made it very clear.
22:22:40 <elliott> It got into that state and then I solved it the next day :P
22:23:27 <elliott> Vorpal: Help how do I ping.
22:24:12 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway I believe it is net_adm:ping(atom_for_node_name)
22:24:36 <elliott> Ping https://github.com/basvandijk/monad-control/issues/4 in particular :P
22:24:46 <Vorpal> elliott, you ask me about github? lol
22:24:54 <elliott> "YOU DARE SPEAK TO ME OF GITHUB"
22:25:05 <Vorpal> elliott, not it is just that it is pointless to ask me
22:25:07 <elliott> Vorpal: I was in fact bothering everyone to tell me how to politely ping a bug report.
22:25:09 <Vorpal> because I don't use it
22:25:40 <olsner> well, no matter how well you explained the issue it's not to you but to the maintainer it needs to be clear
22:25:41 <Vorpal> elliott, "WHY ISNT THIS FIXED YET" is a favourite. Remember the caps and the missing '
22:25:55 <monqy> WHY ISN"T THIS FIXED YET
22:25:57 <olsner> and obviously your solution is flawed because it wasn't his idea :)
22:26:05 <monqy> why isn;t this fixed yet. a classic.
22:27:10 <Vorpal> monqy, also WHY ISN*T THIS FIXED YET
22:27:19 <Vorpal> that works better on Swedish keyboard
22:27:27 <Vorpal> at least for me " is shift-2
22:27:42 <elliott> https://github.com/basvandijk/monad-control/issues/4#issuecomment-3170203
22:30:03 <kallisti> ais523: undef in list context is () right?
22:30:19 <ais523> kallisti: no, it's (undef)
22:30:25 <ais523> i.e. a list with one element, which is undefined
22:30:33 <ais523> kallisti: if you're thinking of a function return value
22:30:37 <elliott> kallisti: have you considered you're doing it wrong if all these details matter to you
22:30:43 <ais523> then "return" will return () in list context or undef in scalar context
22:31:01 <ais523> which is the most common reason that matters (a list with one element is true, scalar undef is false, and you might be trying to return a false value)
22:31:12 <kallisti> ais523: no I'm thinking of undef as returned by an error in a block eval.
22:31:58 <ais523> kallisti: list context eval returns () on error, I just checked the docs
22:32:12 <ais523> so the question about "undef in list context" is irrelevant because eval doesn't return undef on failure, but false on failure
22:32:16 <kallisti> elliott: yes, insignificant details such as "values" involving other insignificant details such as "being returned from functions"
22:33:09 <ais523> elliott: it's plausible to think "I want to use eval but don't know what it returns on error in list context, and it matters because I might get an error"
22:33:18 <ais523> in fact,I didn't know the result myself; I just looked it up
22:33:25 <elliott> ais523: it seems like kallisti went the extra mile and just assumed :)
22:33:54 <kallisti> elliott: no I read the docs but I must have missed that.
22:34:29 <kallisti> ais523: I have a block-eval whose result is passed to a callback, and according to perl's debugger the callbacking is receiving a 1, though I'm pretty sure the only possible return values are either () or a hash.
22:34:29 <ais523> kallisti: perldoc -f eval
22:34:53 <ais523> how are you passing the block-eval to the callback?
22:35:17 <ais523> as in callback (eval { ... }) ?
22:35:59 <kallisti> so I'm guessing what I think I should be returning is not the case?
22:36:07 <kallisti> oh another caveat: eval returns (undef) on a syntax error
22:36:24 <kallisti> but I'm checking $@ and getting no syntax errors. that also wouldn't explain the 1
22:36:28 <ais523> no, it returns () on a syntax error in list context
22:37:01 <ais523> I have the docs open right now, they say that quite explicitly
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22:37:16 <kallisti> If there is a syntax error or runtime error, or a die statement is executed, eval returns undef in scalar context or an empty list--or, for syntax errors, a list containing a single undefined value--in list context
22:37:22 <ais523> also, eval { syntax error = } is a compile-time error
22:37:30 <ais523> (whereas eval "syntax error = " is a run-time error, for obvious reasons
22:37:41 <ais523> kallisti: hmm, it's changed since 5.10, then
22:37:46 <ais523> that's quite a breaking change
22:37:56 <kallisti> agreed. also it doesn't apply to me.
22:38:09 * kallisti should start using the docs on his system instead of web docs.
22:38:29 <kallisti> it later goes on to explain how people think this is a bug or something.
22:38:45 <elliott> perl has no bugs, it implements Perl perfectly
22:39:09 <pikhq_> There are no bugs in perl, only documentation bugs.
22:39:23 <pikhq_> kallisti: Perl is defined as whatever perl does.
22:39:52 <pikhq_> There cannot be bugs in a definition. Merely stupid definition.
22:42:02 <kallisti> this is what happens when you try to program all day without eating food first.
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22:44:22 <kallisti> ais523: it would be interesting if perl had a sigil that deferred context.
22:44:37 <kallisti> that wasn't like... a coderef.
22:44:46 <kallisti> I guess it would be equivalent though, since it would have to be lazily evaluated.
22:45:10 <kallisti> in other words. my ?x = somefunc(2, 3);
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22:45:26 <kallisti> until ?x is evaluated elsewhere, and the context it's evaluated in is used instead.
22:45:32 <ais523> kallisti: yes, it'd have to be lazy
22:45:38 <kallisti> basically equivalent to a subroutine I guess?
22:45:40 <ais523> why would that be interesting? it seems mostly useless
22:47:24 <kallisti> dunno. It would be useful with my current callback scheme instead of enforcing list context on the result, but it may be possible with coderefs or maybe even regular subroutines.
22:48:16 <kallisti> currently I store the callbacks result in an array, print errors as warnings, and then return the list.
22:48:38 <kallisti> hmmm, well it's basically impossible to check for warnings
22:48:54 <kallisti> without knowing the context, because can possibly change the computation drastically.
23:10:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:10:59 <kallisti> I like how pretty much every freelance copywriter says "lol I have 120 WPM"
23:11:27 <kallisti> well, who knows maybe every freelance copywriter ever has the exact same typing speed.
23:12:24 <kallisti> ais523: the context of all of this weirdness is that I'm writing code to dynamically load plugins for an IRC bot.
23:12:36 <kallisti> well, it's done now. may need a few tweaks in the future though.
23:13:16 <kallisti> actually the dynamically loading part has been long done. this was specifically for calling subroutines within dynamically loaded plugins.
23:13:20 <Sgeo> I should learn how ghc-api works
23:13:53 <ais523> kallisti: why not just use Module::Pluggable or the like?
23:13:58 <ais523> (I forget exactly what it's called)
23:14:07 <kallisti> ... because I didn't know it existed. :P
23:14:17 <elliott> kallisti: you assumed a piece of Perl code didn't exist on CPAN?
23:14:51 <Sgeo> Haskell's don't is inspired by a module on CPAN, right?
23:16:32 <kallisti> Acme::Don't should work as well
23:19:15 <kallisti> ais523: well, I've already written the code now so... :P
23:19:55 <kallisti> also it was a learning experience, etc, other things to ensure myself that the effort wasn't a waste.
23:19:59 <ais523> elliott: does Haskell's don't work by somehow redefining '?
23:20:05 <ais523> or in some entirely unrelated way?
23:20:13 <ais523> also, does it do do-notation?
23:20:15 <elliott> ais523: (translation: are you expecting ' to be invalid in identifiers?)
23:20:15 <Sgeo> ais523, ' is valid in identifiers
23:20:26 <ais523> elliott: ah, right, forgot
23:20:27 <elliott> http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/acme-dont/1.1/doc/html/Acme-Dont.html
23:20:32 <Sgeo> Oh, it's just a function, there's no special don't notation
23:20:41 <Sgeo> don't $ do { blah}
23:20:42 <elliott> what's hard to understand about that?
23:20:59 <Sgeo> elliott, nothing, except I thought maybe ais523 was expecting don't blocks
23:21:55 <kallisti> ais523: I'm kind of mystified by how Pluggable works.
23:22:12 <kallisti> ais523: it magically gives you a plugins method?
23:22:15 <Sgeo> don't do doesn't work, right?
23:22:19 <ais523> I've never tried to use it
23:22:36 <Sgeo> I think I tried passing in a do block to something once without $ and it didn't work
23:22:38 <Sgeo> I might be misremembering
23:23:16 <ais523> you know how easy this argument is to resolve, right?
23:23:39 <Sgeo> We were arguing? Although admittedly, it's two seconds to check
23:23:42 <ais523> :t const do { interact id }
23:23:54 <Sgeo> > id do { return "Hi" }
23:23:54 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `do'
23:23:59 <Sgeo> > id $ do { return "Hi" }
23:24:00 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show (m [GHC.Types.Char]))
23:24:00 <ais523> :t const $ do { interact id }
23:24:01 <kallisti> ais523: also do fun with caller that might be difficult to reimplement with Pluggable
23:24:09 <ais523> so apparently the $ is required
23:24:25 <kallisti> ais523: for example, the command subroutine, which registers new commands, uses caller to associate modules with each command, so that when a plugin is unloaded the commands are unregistered.
23:24:29 <elliott> ais523: <elliott> Sgeo: no, it doesn't
23:24:34 <elliott> it wasn't an argument, I was providing the answer
23:24:35 <ais523> elliott: oh, something I was thinking about; do you consider "let main = interact f" unsafe?
23:24:45 <elliott> ais523: it's very unsafe, since it's invalid syntaxc
23:24:53 <ais523> elliott: err, correcting for me not remembering Haskell
23:25:00 <elliott> ais523: it's exactly as unsafe as getContents
23:25:08 <kallisti> ais523: same with "filter" which is like command except that it uses an arbitrary regex instead of a command word (commands are implemented with filter)
23:25:11 <elliott> I don't think it's pure, personally
23:25:17 <elliott> "safe" is too much of a value judgement for me to want to comment
23:25:26 <elliott> but lazy IO has well-known subtle-but-deadly performance problems
23:25:28 <ais523> elliott: right; you'd called unsafeInterleaveIO unsafe earlier
23:25:40 <elliott> it's very easy to force too much, and space leaks are practically unavoidable.
23:25:41 <ais523> so I assumed you had some definition of "safe" in mind, and wanted to get at it
23:25:51 <elliott> ais523: well, anything starting with unsafe is unsafe :)
23:26:01 <ais523> elliott: I was going to put "unsafe" into the name of <<=
23:26:14 <kallisti> > let unsafeId = id in unsafeId
23:26:14 <lambdabot> Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show (a -> a)
23:26:18 <kallisti> > let unsafeId = id in unsafeId 2
23:26:22 <kallisti> elliott: unless kallisti defines it. ;)
23:26:28 <ais523> but decided not to, as the way it's going all Feather's predefined operations seem to be made entirely out of punctuation marks
23:26:33 <ais523> I may make an effort to change that
23:27:35 <Sgeo> Laziness even without IO also has space leaks. My understanding is that it's generally handwaved away since it's easy to make those cases stricter. But why not the same with lazy IO?
23:30:09 <kallisti> ais523: another thing I do that I'm not sure Pluggable does is I change the current working directory to the plugin directory.
23:30:32 <ais523> I doubt it does that, mostly because it doesn't strike me as being a good idea
23:30:42 <elliott> Sgeo: your comparison is mistaken
23:31:01 <kallisti> sure it is. the plugins can refer to their files without having to worry about paths.
23:32:21 <elliott> kallisti: that's ridiculous
23:32:29 <elliott> normal scripts and modules can't do that, why should plugins?
23:32:39 <elliott> you should provide scripts a way to get at a filesystem storage, instead
23:32:53 <elliott> probably by passing them a path somehow
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23:33:44 <kallisti> elliott: normal scripts can't do what exactly? worry?
23:33:50 <elliott> Sgeo: for one thing, lazy IO's unpredictability has real effects
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23:34:01 <kallisti> plugins should because not worrying about things is better than worrying about things.
23:34:04 <elliott> Sgeo: for instance, if you writeFile something, there's no guarantee it will ever be closed (!)
23:34:09 <elliott> kallisti: can't assume they're run in a certain directory
23:35:10 <elliott> Sgeo: there is basically no way to make lazy IO work. the same is not at all true of lazy evaluation
23:38:08 <kallisti> elliott: they can't? they can usually know exactly where they're being run from.
23:38:39 <elliott> ais523: please tell kallisti that perl programs don't usually change directory to the directory they're in
23:39:05 <ais523> kallisti: user-specified files will make no sense
23:39:13 <ais523> without knowing what directory they're specified relative to
23:39:17 <ais523> that's a pretty common use-case
23:39:20 <elliott> <kallisti> why wouldn't they?
23:39:24 <elliott> if they do, they have to do it themselves
23:39:27 <elliott> the perl interpreter doesn't do it for them
23:39:30 <elliott> because that's a terrible idea
23:39:37 <kallisti> in this case user's don't specify filepath inputs, so it's not an issue.
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23:40:28 <elliott> kallisti: also, you're ensuring that state can never be decoupled from implementation, filesystem-wise
23:40:30 <elliott> which is, you know, stupid
23:41:51 <kallisti> I'm ensuring that every plugin runs in its own bubble and doesn't have to worry about where its state is..
23:42:14 <ais523> kallisti: most obviously: what if the plugin isn't in a writable directory?
23:42:18 <elliott> kallisti: why do plugins have to store their own state, anyway?
23:42:28 <elliott> you should just let give them a persistence handle
23:42:30 <ais523> what if two people want to use the same plugin? do they have to copy/symlink it?
23:42:36 <elliott> which probably looks like a tied dictionary of some kind
23:42:46 <ais523> elliott: this is Perl, you can say "hash"
23:42:51 <kallisti> elliott: that's not a bad idea.
23:43:03 <elliott> it's a hell of a lot of a better idea than changing directory every time you invoke a plugin
23:43:13 <elliott> ais523: I'm not a filthy commoner!
23:43:21 <kallisti> elliott: it works pretty well right now actually. :P
23:43:39 <elliott> also, -30 in 0.28{3 recurring} :(
23:43:42 <kallisti> still plugins may have state associated with them that they'd like to transfer between bots.
23:43:46 <kallisti> for example, a quote database.
23:44:04 <kallisti> though I agree the persistent hash is a good idea.
23:44:09 <elliott> kallisti: why does the tied hash solution not permit that? actually, it should just be a tied object
23:44:10 <kallisti> I might end up doing that for some things.
23:44:15 <elliott> in fact, why not just persist the plugin object itself?
23:44:24 <elliott> push @self->quotes, whatever, I don't know perl;
23:44:47 <elliott> I was presuming plugins are objects.
23:45:12 <kallisti> I'm not going to explain any further because you'll hate it.
23:45:17 <elliott> Why not? This is Perl, you have very few tenable options for abstraction and you ignore the most popular one?
23:45:22 <ais523> elliott: we persist plugins in TAEB; it leads to some interesting problems sometimes
23:45:32 <ais523> although I found a nice OO way to solve them, which is also rather complicated
23:45:37 <elliott> kallisti: I probably will. Use the module ais523 told you about or I'll be nasty if you ask future questions pertaining to the code :)
23:45:48 <elliott> ais523: You know what wouldn't be a problem in @?
23:45:49 <oerjan> <ais523> elliott: I was going to put "unsafe" into the name of <<= <-- call it <<=!!! or something
23:45:52 <kallisti> elliott: I use regular hashes and hashrefs instead of objects for things that are very very simple and don't require all the OO boilerplate.
23:45:52 <ais523> it involves custom serializer hooks
23:46:02 <ais523> elliott: well, the problem is that various things need to /not/ be persisted
23:46:09 <elliott> kallisti: Man... it has state... and behaviour... and the state doesn't matter to things outside it...
23:46:15 <elliott> And it implements a common interface...
23:46:17 <ais523> (the reason being because they're full of literal pointers-converted-to-integers, which obviously couldn't happen in @)
23:46:19 <elliott> And this is a language where OOP is the common practice...
23:46:21 <kallisti> elliott: yes but it's not a perl object.
23:46:28 <elliott> Despite that being the *definition of an object*.
23:46:44 <elliott> ais523: sure it could, if you ran nethack in a VM
23:46:55 <ais523> elliott: you mean TAEB?
23:46:57 <kallisti> elliott: I don't actually like perl OO. sorry.
23:47:02 <elliott> ais523: no, TAEB would control the nethack VM
23:47:07 <elliott> kallisti: use one of the alternate object systems
23:47:14 <ais523> elliott: but the literal pointers are to stuff inside TAEB
23:47:35 <elliott> I assumed they were pointers into nethack memory
23:47:48 <ais523> elliott: no, how can it possibly work /that/ out over telnet?
23:47:57 <elliott> ais523: it's TAEB! I just assume it's insane
23:48:09 <ais523> it's because it needs to use objects as hash keys
23:48:23 <elliott> ais523: oh. well you can do that in @ no problem, naturally
23:48:30 <ais523> yep, it's a Perl problem more than anything else
23:48:37 <elliott> of course, the objects have to be immutable.
23:48:47 <elliott> though you _could_ write a dictionary with mutable keys
23:48:50 <elliott> it'd just be not very useful
23:49:08 <ais523> elliott: well, in this case, the objects /are/ mutable but the hash lookup is based on sharing
23:49:16 <ais523> as in, it's not the value of the object that matters, but the name
23:49:21 <ais523> (in the CS meaning of "name")
23:49:41 <elliott> ais523: right, you'd handle that just by overriding how they're hashed and compared for equality with an interning type or whatever
23:49:42 <elliott> ais523: what are the objects, exactly?
23:49:43 <kallisti> elliott: I still think changing the working directory makes sense in this context.
23:49:54 <elliott> kallisti: well, it's not the first thing you've been wrong about.
23:49:54 <ais523> elliott: all sorts of things; things like tiles, items, etc
23:50:08 <elliott> ais523: why are they mutable?
23:50:14 <ais523> we could convert the tiles to coordinates, but that would require something like four property lookups for every hash lookup
23:50:23 <ais523> and because a tile object stores the known information about the tile
23:50:30 <oerjan> > let x <<=☠ y = "test" in 2 <<=☠ 4
23:51:07 <elliott> ais523: OK, so the problem is that you're mixing what you /know/ about something with the thing itself
23:51:17 <ais523> elliott: yes, or rather the TAEB framework is doing that
23:51:31 <ais523> so I had to work around the problem when writing an AI for it
23:51:33 <elliott> ais523: "you"/"we" are perfectly valid terms for codebase
23:51:45 <elliott> ais523: my suggestion is to not do that :)
23:51:52 <ais523> elliott: yes, but "you" directed at me when referring to a codebase that I didn't write is confusing
23:52:10 <elliott> I assume you'd made a fair amount of changes to TAEB itself
23:52:17 <ais523> also, I don't see how mutability matters there; immutable objects would have exactly the same problem
23:52:25 <ais523> elliott: yes, indeed, but I can't make huge breaking changes to every part of the API
23:53:00 <elliott> see, @ is great, because you'd give up before manging to implement the wrong way to do things :)
23:53:14 <elliott> <ais523> also, I don't see how mutability matters there; immutable objects would have exactly the same problem
23:53:19 <elliott> because you're misusing keys
23:53:22 <ais523> elliott: in Perl, I mean
23:53:24 <elliott> your real key is whatever the name of the object is
23:53:27 <elliott> but you're using the object itself
23:53:36 <elliott> where by "name", I mean anything equivalent to the name
23:53:40 <elliott> so, whatever you're interning on, basically
23:53:41 <ais523> elliott: well, I'm using the name of the object as keys
23:53:47 <elliott> ais523: erm, what I mean is
23:53:48 <ais523> that's what I am doing, using refaddr obj as the key
23:53:52 <elliott> you're /trying/ to use the object as a key
23:53:58 <elliott> and that's your workaround for not being allowed to
23:54:27 <ais523> elliott: no, I'm trying to use the object's coordinates as a key, I guess
23:54:37 <ais523> or, hmm, a unique ID referring to the object
23:54:52 <elliott> ais523: the problem is that you're too baffled by the design for me to explain why it's a bad idea :)
23:54:59 <elliott> ais523: how do you intern, say, items?
23:55:06 <elliott> what key do you use for the intern table?
23:55:15 <ais523> I use refaddr as the key, always
23:55:17 <ais523> even though it doesn't persist
23:55:24 <ais523> because good luck persisting general pointers
23:55:49 <elliott> ais523: you can't intern an object with the key being the address
23:55:55 <elliott> that's a good way to get an intern table of exactly one entry
23:56:05 <ais523> what does "intern" mean here?
23:56:21 <coppro> ais523: I'm currently trying to bring my team up high enough to fight the revamped Elite Four. Are there any training tips I'm missing?
23:56:27 <elliott> oh, hmm, you don't actually do interning
23:56:33 <elliott> ais523: <ais523> elliott: well, in this case, the objects /are/ mutable but the hash lookup is based on sharing
23:56:42 <ais523> coppro: there are some daily level 70 fights which are quite good
23:56:43 <elliott> ais523: either you don't understand what sharing is, or I don't know what you're talking about
23:56:53 <ais523> also, the daily fights in Big Stadium / Small Court are scaling
23:57:02 <ais523> elliott: I'm having trouble expressing myself, which is quite common
23:57:14 <ais523> coppro: also, remember to use the Lucky Egg (I think you get one without having to farm it in Black/White)
23:57:16 <elliott> ais523: OK, let me rework this
23:57:31 <ais523> you can also use Entralink Pass Powers, but it's probably not worth the effort/setup unless you happen to have some spare
23:57:36 <elliott> ais523: when you use the (address of) a tile as a hash key, what is the semantic key you are trying to use?
23:57:37 <coppro> ais523: oh, I thought they were fixed. I am using those. You do get one without having to farm but it's sort of unreliable since I can'trely on a single 'mon
23:57:49 <ais523> coppro: you farm one 'mon at a time
23:58:01 <coppro> ais523: I can't rely on one 'mon to fight though
23:58:17 <ais523> elliott: yes, with the caveat that the coordinates might not actually be known
23:58:22 <ais523> elliott: it's common competitive abbreviation
23:58:26 <ais523> in fact, they often leave out the apostrophe
23:58:31 <elliott> ais523: what is the key if the location isn't known?
23:58:35 <coppro> also what daily level 70 fights? My 'ns could really use those
23:58:38 <elliott> you're unable to tell me what you're actually keying on, semantically
23:58:44 <ais523> elliott: we're keying on (x, y, level)
23:58:48 <elliott> because it means you don't know what your program means
23:58:55 <elliott> ais523: no you're not, you said those aren't always known
23:59:01 <ais523> elliott: the level /object/ is known
23:59:03 <ais523> but its location isn't
23:59:14 <ais523> there's a mutable level object that represents the level
23:59:17 <elliott> ais523: OK, and what does the level mean?
23:59:21 <elliott> is it basically just an enum?
23:59:38 <elliott> or something like MainDungeon Int | ...
23:59:46 <ais523> if mutating the level one tile belongs to mutates the level another tile belongs to, they're on the same level
23:59:55 <ais523> and you can, from a level object, get all tiles on that level