< 1323993608 773361 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION gives up
< 1323993687 89538 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: the reason I'm describing this semantically is that the key is not well-founded < 1323993704 375736 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's see… I suppose the way it works in practice is that the key is (x, y, unique identifier for level) < 1323993707 969862 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're doing the opposite of describing it semantically; you're unable to tell me what the semantics are < 1323993716 64871 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :awww yeah backup time. < 1323993722 58258 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :where the unique identifier is currently the level's refaddr, but semantically could be anything that uniquely identifies the level < 1323993723 692574 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :zooooooooom rsync spam. < 1323993736 803807 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :my particular blend of zealotry tells me that you, therefore, have no idea what your program does or is meant to do, and you should just type random keys instead < 1323993750 719739 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you haven't been able to tell me what a level is, though < 1323993758 479212 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it's not identified by a location, how do you know what makes any given level not another level? < 1323993763 749322 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :how is it done? < 1323993768 14237 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: badly < 1323993770 92514 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :where do level objects come from? how are they created? < 1323993783 662797 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, TAEB always knows whether or not it's on the same level as it was last step < 1323993791 645414 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it isn't, it checks all the existing level objects to see if it matches what it sees < 1323993799 567368 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if it doesn't, creates a new level object and assigns all the tiles it can see to that one < 1323993833 846839 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: OK, then the closest semantics I can think of a level for a hash key is the number it was created in < 1323993838 624105 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, first level created is 0, second is 1, ... < 1323993842 307315 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'll notice that this is terrible < 1323993847 423616 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's because your program is terrible :) < 1323993861 17288 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: as I said, "unique identifier for level" < 1323993875 72736 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it takes a special kind of program to bake in how its imperative semantics run to the /behaviour/ < 1323993878 619554 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I suppose most programs do that :( < 1323993907 982421 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it's not imperative semantics, really < 1323993919 145517 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or can't "arbitrary identifier for X" be used in functional programs ever? < 1323993974 100584 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it is, because it's based on the order things are executed < 1323993977 30429 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : basically, TAEB always knows whether or not it's on the same level as it was last step < 1323993977 206598 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : if it isn't, it checks all the existing level objects to see if it matches what it sees < 1323993977 206813 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : and if it doesn't, creates a new level object and assigns all the tiles it can see to that one < 1323993990 492055 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only thing involved here is time, basically < 1323994003 790542 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I mean NetHack game step < 1323994007 336478 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1323994013 268372 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :imperative programs don't care if their time is real time... < 1323994014 964339 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's about sequencing < 1323994016 981923 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, I can think of a better way to model it that behaves the same /way/ < 1323994028 125163 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: what TAEB can detect is whether the level has changed or not < 1323994036 874943 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're basically keying on the /equivalence class/ of "close enough to X" < 1323994039 550312 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :where X is a tile pattern < 1323994046 85649 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :("if it matches what it sees") < 1323994049 293854 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1323994074 297445 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so your keys are just taking the setoid of maps (= 2D ASCII pictures) with the relation being however it defines "close enough" < 1323994077 548408 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Q.E.Z. < 1323994081 428297 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: well, if a command it sends to the game leaves the level unchanged, it knows; likewise, if it changes it, it knows < 1323994110 152516 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it can't compare two views from different times to see if they're the same level (it has many ways to rule it out, but no way to prove it for certain) < 1323994112 641363 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: what you're saying doesn't make any sense at all, so I'm assuming you just didn't notice me swerving at some point < 1323994145 240971 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmmm organic compounds. < 1323994154 206460 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I don't see why it makes no sense < 1323994161 935406 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, they're probably true statements < 1323994162 721067 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you like, we're trying to key on insufficient data < 1323994172 510201 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you seem to be implying that they're relevant responses to things I've recently said < 1323994187 536520 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm saying that < 1323994191 375887 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I'm trying to say you're wrong about what my keys are < 1323994196 353618 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a) the semantics you've described are terrible, < 1323994207 263457 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(b) but there's a reasonable way to express them without changing behaviour or relying on imperative sequencing < 1323994223 166801 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it's not relying on imperative sequencing < 1323994230 258486 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: unfortunately what I said was completely true; i.e. you could replace the keys in your program with the keys I mentioned and TAEB would work identically < 1323994233 34815 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the information it gets from the game has timestamps < 1323994240 850069 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you don't understand what imperative means < 1323994253 882268 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is fundamentally based on order of operations, not declarative semantics, Q.E.Z. < 1323994268 181564 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: are you under the impression that I'm saying that the way TAEB does levels is fundamentally impossible to express in a functional language? < 1323994274 146797 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I'm not trying to argue that at all < 1323994274 677653 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : (b) but there's a reasonable way to express them without changing behaviour or relying on imperative sequencing < 1323994280 336790 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously not, because I just told you the real semantics < 1323994294 737271 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: what exactly are you taking issue with? < 1323994297 349949 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or are you agreeing with me? < 1323994298 966807 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. the semantics you want and /really mean/, not how you reverse engineer them from the actual behaviour < 1323994322 361056 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'm disagreeing that your description of the semantics is reasonable, and I'm disagreeing with any implicit statement that TAEB's way of doing this is at all reasonable and that it isn't completely structurally unsound < 1323994365 593960 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but mostly I consider my point proven, since you've had to resort to mentally simulating the software to figure out what it means :) < 1323994404 251870 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: OK, the semantics I want is to key on x-coordinate, y-coordinate, and which level the tile is belongs to; but we don't know what level the tile belongs to < 1323994431 532053 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's impossible, so it's not semantics < 1323994477 210058 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : you're basically keying on the /equivalence class/ of "close enough to X" < 1323994477 386546 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : where X is a tile pattern < 1323994477 386772 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : ("if it matches what it sees") < 1323994477 604857 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : so your keys are just taking the setoid of maps (= 2D ASCII pictures) with the relation being however it defines "close enough" < 1323994477 780928 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : Q.E.Z. < 1323994487 945264 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the best description of the semantics you /have/ < 1323994493 743042 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I agree that the semantics I want are impossible < 1323994495 886812 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :whether it's what you want depends on how much you like your level-matching algorithm < 1323994514 12870 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's the best we have; the level-matching algorithm could do with improvement, really < 1323994530 73762 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it works well mostly, but goes haywire if it gets half a level due to lag < 1323994531 224795 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, to clarify: < 1323994535 986221 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :whether it's what you want depends on how much you like the very idea of the level-matching algorithm < 1323994577 930120 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: anyway, you're missing an important point; we can match the maps either on physical appearance, or on knowledge that two maps are the same because they were on consecutive steps without a level change < 1323994580 116865 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: to unpack what I'm saying into something more like conventional programmerspeak, I'm saying that you want to want to form a new type that's identical to 2D level maps, except that all maps that match are considered equal < 1323994620 777340 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what we're actually doing is taking equivalence classes on (map, timestamp) pairs by quotienting them on a "look similar or have consecutive timestamps without a change" equivalence relation < 1323994632 958194 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in other words, I didn't need the unpacking…) < 1323994639 426419 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that's not what the problem was) < 1323994644 396401 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I didn't expect you needed the unpacking < 1323994648 147067 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I was just relating it pack to hash tables < 1323994654 555477 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*back < 1323994662 239844 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, I see < 1323994674 541203 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, what I was really doing is just trying to restate it, but it happened that I ended up restating it in a more dumbed-down fashion, so I added that to the front :) < 1323994675 497661 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: anyway, the main reason these are refaddrs is so that they can be calculated quickly < 1323994680 907525 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: right < 1323994687 381234 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well, in case it isn't clear, I think TAEB's design is terrible :) < 1323994738 823395 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: but if you designed it in @, it'd probably be perfect. < 1323994760 803164 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: how would you solve the problem, incidentally? < 1323994767 467693 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't need to use the same semantics as TAEB < 1323994809 691044 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well, if you're asking "how would I, when presented with this problem in practice, solve it", the answer would probably be to complain on #esoteric about how terrible TAEB is, and then rethink everything about the entire problem of playing nethack from scratch < 1323994825 126458 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: anyway, there's a situation where this approach leads to huge measurable problems in TAEB < 1323994832 551955 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but on a smaller scale, I'd probably try and figure out whether you can precisely determine level < 1323994837 74001 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than just relying on heuristics < 1323994839 934996 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :by logging more about what happens < 1323994842 499112 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is that it has trouble working out when two items are the same < 1323994845 675862 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and even more so, of monsters < 1323994851 309316 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: imagine you have a finite amount of time to live. Now imagine that what you're doing right now prevents you from doing other things in the sum of all events in your life. < 1323994858 987544 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: what would you rather be doing right now? < 1323994871 120331 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure elliott enjoys talking on IRC < 1323994872 560993 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: "Imagine" I have a finite amount of time to live? < 1323994879 137344 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That seems fairly likely to me. < 1323994884 553881 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not terribly difficult to imagine. < 1323994904 546952 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's promising. < 1323994913 982779 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Now imagine that what you're doing right now prevents you from doing other things in the sum of all events in your life." ;; is this not equivalent to "Now imagine that what you're doing now is not doing other things." < 1323994937 845390 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-229-232.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1323994954 13359 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, my answer is nothing, because I'm feeling fairly lazy, it's after midnight, and it's winter < 1323994961 592409 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: sure, it still interferes with the sequencing and duration of events. < 1323994969 828103 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there's not really a huge amount of things to do. < 1323994974 62309 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :now why are you asking? < 1323994986 809435 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really have a reason. < 1323994993 310830 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what would _you_ rather be doing? < 1323995004 862302 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'm about to do something nobody has ever done before in the history of prorgamming < 1323995007 846066 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :skydiving in a wingsuit. < 1323995018 717606 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: has anyone attempted before? < 1323995023 212397 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: why aren't you doing it? < 1323995026 480276 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: nobody's even considered it! < 1323995032 48529 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1323995047 470688 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: no it's my point, you're not allowed to steal it! < 1323995056 500470 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: so what is your point, exactly? < 1323995066 810281 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you think talking about IRC on programming is pointless, < 1323995068 875031 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION holds up mirror
< 1323995070 241113 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: that this conversation is silly. :P < 1323995077 629868 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :good, don't participate in it < 1323995080 328324 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I prefer elliott's subject < 1323995081 832860 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: go on < 1323995097 316910 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'm going to grep for every occurrence of TODO|FIXME in a codebase, and /actually fix them/. < 1323995101 934422 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :SORRY IF YOU EXPECTED IT TO BE EXCITING < 1323995110 392202 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: haha < 1323995121 659816 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is actually pretty exciting, also insightful < 1323995127 49574 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure I've at least considered it, before now < 1323995154 90248 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-250-216.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1323995212 387608 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ egrep -r 'TODO|FIXME' *.c *.h | wc -l < 1323995212 563777 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :26 < 1323995222 315112 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, that's a pleasant surprise < 1323995226 386446 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :considering I write about fifty per day < 1323995296 270598 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: anyway, why can't you decide levels exactly in TAEB? < 1323995321 480995 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't think of any situation in NetHack where you would (a) end up on an unknown level and (b) not be able to determine it exactly, through e.g. the level name/identifier/whatever you call it or otherwise. < 1323995330 780675 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: suppose you go down a set of stairs on Dungones:2; you could arrive on Mines:3 or Dungeons:3 < 1323995340 160421 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the view could look exactly the same for each < 1323995359 349529 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: OK, but you still known the dlvl number, right? < 1323995361 430096 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in particular, you could be in a dark area with no adjacent walls in either) < 1323995364 161029 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, you know the numbre < 1323995366 360728 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Dungeons < 1323995369 577100 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just not the branch < 1323995374 301048 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: why not just key on that? < 1323995376 624822 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :checking number is one of the most obvious things the level comparer does < 1323995384 21202 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: because then you'd get mines:3 and dungeons:3 muddled? < 1323995388 229554 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"what branch it's in" is just another piece of information you haven't yet found out < 1323995394 650935 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: oh, right < 1323995408 903095 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well, hmm < 1323995426 78929 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I know what I'd do; I'd store tile information in a tree < 1323995436 401403 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: mines:3 and dungeons:3 would be distinguished by the path in the tree to get there, which would be spatial < 1323995446 145221 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :they'd just both be on level 3, that's all < 1323995459 768759 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, I'd store tile information inside level information < 1323995462 192006 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: except that you can /also/ fall through a trapdoor on dungeons:1, and land on dungeons:3 < 1323995471 584753 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well, possibly not with those exact numbers, but translated downwards) < 1323995477 506401 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: OK, and? < 1323995485 97171 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, how do you know if you're on the level reached via set-of-stairs 1, or the level reached by set-of-stairs 2? < 1323995493 141739 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: *dungeons:3/mines:3, then < 1323995505 255725 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(presumably) < 1323995509 171922 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what I mean is, "path to get there" isn't always known < 1323995517 920062 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well, sure it is < 1323995521 820364 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just a graph instead of a tree < 1323995523 593332 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's two paths < 1323995538 351752 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: OK, I'll buy that; but it's a graph where you don't know if two edges lead to the same vertex or not < 1323995541 407856 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's not a /known/ graph < 1323995554 826956 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: OK, what do you think of this: "current level" should be stored separately to "known levels" < 1323995565 200129 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it should only become "tied" to a known level if you can decide for /sure/ that it's a known level < 1323995571 279211 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of the time, you can do that immediately < 1323995582 286192 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g., you went down some downstairs in a non-forking place < 1323995592 238340 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :which would be one kind of proof < 1323995597 712914 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1323995604 666962 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one kind of proof that TAEB currently doesn't use, interestingly < 1323995606 152301 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that /is/ based on time, but it's not in the model < 1323995615 114978 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's something you /give/ to the model < 1323995643 834495 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: so, the worst-case is, you fall down a trapdoor to a previously seen level, and never prove it's one or the other branch < 1323995658 726054 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: but as soon as you go up the upstairs, you'll be in an unambiguous location again < 1323995662 559265 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :because there's only one dlvl 2, or whatever < 1323995682 733990 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: or if you go down, and find minetown, you know all the levels on the way were in the mines < 1323995687 79425 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: how would the API for this information look to the AI? < 1323995730 869102 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well, beats me, I'm thinking in terms of @, which basically involves pretending the world is as declarative as possible and you have infinite powers of abstraction available to you < 1323995732 641015 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me think... < 1323995758 845490 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, how does an AI do "route to