00:00:05 <Gregor> Mao Ze Cat may be the best of all possible cat names.
00:01:42 -!- Klisz has quit (Quit: You are now graced with my absence.).
00:01:47 -!- zzo38 has joined.
00:02:54 <PiRSquared17> The Main Page isn't semi-protected... is that for a reason?
00:03:27 <elliott> Nobody vandalises it, and it's only recently received incredibly mild spam thanks to the recent huge spam wave.
00:03:31 <elliott> Is there any reason to semi-protect it?
00:04:47 -!- Klisz has joined.
00:12:28 * itidus21 . o O ( characters which are rotations of each other: asymmetrical: qb pd symmetrical: () [] {} <> )
00:13:24 <elliott> wow this is rare, it's early night and i actually feel tired
00:15:49 <itidus21> i suppose something can also be said of characters which are made up out of other characters: :;=" ,._'
00:17:01 <ais523> itidus21: un are rotations of each other
00:17:05 <kallisti> itidus21: http://perlcabal.org/syn/S02.html#Bracketing_Characters
00:17:41 <ais523> kallisti: oh right, Perl 6 actually uses «»
00:17:57 <ais523> but you can type them as << >>, which is useful if you don't have a « or » key on your keyboard
00:18:02 <ais523> (I do; altgr-z/altgr-x)
00:21:38 <itidus21> this could be useful in something like nintendo entertainment system when you want to minimize the overhead of each character
00:23:30 <NihilistDandy> It's the rather inconvenient Option-Shift-\ and Option-Shift-| on OS X :/
00:23:53 <ais523> itidus21: typewriters used not to have 0 or 1 keys
00:23:58 <ais523> you just typed O or I instead
00:25:54 <kallisti> wow these bracketing rules are complex.
00:27:09 <elliott> NihilistDandy: you can make your own mapping for things like that, or use an operating system with compose key support
00:27:41 <NihilistDandy> I know. I'm just talking defaults. If I were planning to use them, I'd like just remap the keys
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00:33:43 <elliott> hmm, I think I'll go to bed at 1 am
00:34:22 <oklopol> i woke up at something like 1
00:43:07 <ais523> PiRSquared17: those aren't rotations in the vast majority of fonts
00:44:05 <ais523> oh well, my Firefox just upgraded from 3.5 to 9
00:44:11 <ais523> that was a bit of a shock
00:44:25 <ais523> (I did let the update manager do that, and it was in -proposed not -security, but still, it's quite the jump)
00:44:50 -!- DCliche has joined.
00:45:34 <ais523> hmm, where's the setting to put the tabs back beneath the URL bar? the current location is crazy, because it's not even at the top of the screen
00:45:47 <ais523> so it's just bad in terms of Fitts' Law
00:46:25 <ais523> also, the new colour scheme for the tabs (based on window title not dialog background) is ugly
00:46:48 <elliott> chrome has tabs right at the top of the screen when maximised. i like that
00:47:01 <ais523> ah, found it, View | Tabs on Top
00:47:05 <ais523> elliott: yep, that makes /sense/
00:47:10 <ais523> whereas Firefox has the menu bar above them
00:47:28 <ais523> also, the top gnome-panel thing
00:47:43 <ais523> tabs on top make sense if I fullscreen Firefox, but I don't do that
00:48:08 <ais523> also, ugh at /having/ a status bar (for addons), but /not putting information that should be on the status bar there/
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00:48:35 <elliott> ais523: /me likes his panels at the bottom for the same reason :p
00:49:51 <ais523> elliott: well, I have a panel at top and a panel at bottom
00:50:07 <ais523> and at least the bottom one, I use a /lot/, so it makes sense that it gets the bottom screen edge
00:50:18 <ais523> also, lock screen badly needs a corner, but I could put it in a bottom corner not top corner, I guess
00:51:21 <elliott> ais523: why a corner? it needs a keyboard shortcut
00:51:35 <ais523> really? mouse-based lock I use more often
00:51:44 <elliott> it's a single action that you want to be readily-accessible; pointing has no use there
00:51:46 <ais523> and in most of the circumstances where I'd want to quickly lock the screen, I have a hand on the mouse
00:52:08 <elliott> well, yes; obviously if your workflow is biased to one input device, then you're biased to solutions that use it, even if they're suboptimal
00:52:39 <ais523> elliott: well, sometimes what I do is keyboard-driven, sometimes it's mouse-driven
00:52:49 <ais523> but in the circumstances when I normally want to lock the screen, I'm using the mouse at the time
00:53:18 <ais523> (fwiw, the only way to shut down the system, barring killing X and shutting down from the login screen or doing sudo shutdown, etc, by hand, is the physical power button; I realised I didn't need a shutdown widget because I had that instead)
00:54:35 * elliott is the kind of person who just wants a way to say "bye" and it does the equivalent of bring up a user-switching dialogue
00:54:49 <ais523> hmm, so how do I get Firefox to not delete the http from the start of the line?
00:54:56 <elliott> turning off the display is handled by idle-out time, suspending and hibernating too
00:55:13 <elliott> for a laptop, you don't even need that on a single-user machine, it just has to react to closing the lid
00:55:17 <ais523> the inconsistency annoys me slightly; also, there's enough space on that line as it is, so removing the http isn't going to hurt anything
00:55:39 <elliott> ais523: why don't you do what anyone else would have to do to answer your question, and google it?
00:55:53 <ais523> elliott: that's what I did do
00:55:57 <elliott> it's information which is (a) trivial to search for, (b) trivial to verify the accuracy of, and (c) will be a common enough wish to be readily accessible
00:55:59 <ais523> I was just wondering if someone knew the answer offhand
00:56:07 <ais523> and it's not trivial to search for, it took me two tries
00:56:18 <elliott> maybe you should practice more
00:56:30 <elliott> http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=show+http+firefox+7
00:56:42 <elliott> admittedly, "7" is cheating because it came up int he suggestions
00:56:47 <elliott> http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=restore+http+prefix+firefox
00:56:57 <elliott> http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=show+http+firefox
00:57:09 <ais523> I eventually found it with "firefox http address bar"
00:57:16 <elliott> http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=don't+hide+http+firefox (fifth result)
00:58:10 <NihilistDandy> https://www.google.com/search?client=browser-rockmelt&channel=omnibox&gcx=c&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=http+firefox
00:58:26 <ais523> hmm, seems that the status bar thing needs an addon to fix
00:59:32 <monqy> I don't know anything about rockmelt is it any good
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01:01:23 <NihilistDandy> The Chrome UI doesn't sit well with me, and Firefox keeps pretending it has major updates
01:04:08 <elliott> anyone who can use safari for more than a day isn't human
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01:06:50 <elliott> ais523: tell me to go to bed pls, it's (a) 1 am and (b) i'm tired
01:06:57 <elliott> and i even slept yesterday
01:07:28 <NihilistDandy> I've used Chrome and FF extensively, and I just don't see much to draw me into them.
01:07:31 <ais523> elliott: you know? sleeping might actually be a good idea for once
01:07:39 <NihilistDandy> Open source is fun, I guess, but I could give a shit about browser dev
01:07:41 <monqy> all browsers are awful :'(
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01:08:27 <ais523> Firefox wins for me just because of superior customizability; all browsers suck, so pick the one that you at least have a fighting chance of making suck less
01:08:44 <ais523> fwiw, Opera's the only browser that's managed to offend me enough to actually uninstall it
01:08:50 <monqy> im still waiting for @ to solve all of my problems ever
01:09:11 <ais523> (I have IE6 installed atm but not Opera; that said, I don't use IE6 for anything but compatibility testing, because it's IE6, and I do it with my network connection turned off)
01:09:18 <NihilistDandy> Christ, anyone who can use Opera for more than a day is definitely not human
01:10:27 * elliott finds that you can't actually make firefox not suck
01:10:39 <elliott> unless there's a Don't Bring My System To A Crushing Halt When I Have >200 Tabs extension
01:11:13 <elliott> at least with chrome i rarely actually think "I'm using chrome" because it never actually pops up any annoying dialogues or UI elements to remind me I'm using chrome
01:11:25 <elliott> also its tab bar is nicer than firefox's
01:11:50 <itidus21> its interesting that people rarely have 50 apps open at one time, but easily manage to get 50 browser tabs open at one time
01:12:21 <Sgeo> elliott, even on Chrome, my system slows down with too many tabs
01:12:38 <Sgeo> ais523, how did Opera offend you?
01:12:46 <NihilistDandy> And yet, strangely, I have not yet managed to hit the upper limit of tabs in Safari
01:13:01 <ais523> Sgeo: gah, don't make me remember
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01:13:03 <NihilistDandy> Occasionally I'll come back days later and find tabs I still haven't made it to :D
01:13:18 <ais523> the notification tray icon with the Opera logo was a pretty big offender, though, and that wasn't the only problem
01:13:23 <monqy> my biggest problem with crhome is the stupid noneditable autocompletion on the address bar thingy
01:13:24 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
01:13:45 <elliott> Sgeo: your system is beyond terrible isn't it
01:13:59 <Sgeo> For some reason, Reddit loads slowly in Chrome, freezing other Reddit tabs
01:14:00 <elliott> ais523 failed to do it properly!
01:14:00 <HackEgo> marcomarco100: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
01:14:01 -!- marcomarco100 has left.
01:14:03 <monqy> sometimes it starts autocompleting things incorrectly and i can't fix it and ugh what i really want is just to be able to configure it :(
01:14:08 <ais523> elliott: I /always/ do it as `? welcome
01:14:11 <ais523> also, you scared him away
01:14:15 <monqy> so I can have like
01:14:18 <monqy> kjeyboard-bookmarks
01:14:24 <ais523> although it's an explicitly male nick
01:14:40 <NihilistDandy> I find that if I load a few Chrome tabs at once, they all freeze up until the last one finishes loading
01:14:42 <elliott> monqy: hint: if you wait a second then it usually works, or if you hit the down arrow after a second there's usually an unmodified alternative
01:14:45 <elliott> i only rarely run into that though
01:14:53 <elliott> NihilistDandy: I diagnose the problem as OS X
01:14:56 <NihilistDandy> And Flash opening in the background is a pain in the ass
01:15:05 <Sgeo> NihilistDandy, block the plugin
01:15:11 <Sgeo> You can selectively enable it as needed
01:15:14 <monqy> elliott: but then I have to wait/pay attention
01:15:27 <NihilistDandy> I just would rather it not load them till I get to the page
01:15:29 <monqy> whereas I prefer doing things quickly while looking in the other direction
01:15:37 <zzo38> One way is to simply disable (or uninstall) Flash.
01:15:37 <lambdabot> zzo38: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
01:16:00 <itidus21> its really the rolls royce of dealing with flash i think
01:16:14 <zzo38> Is it possible to tell Mozilla to load the entire HTML document first before loading any images, CSS, or anything else?
01:16:48 <elliott> ais523: hi, kickban me so i go to bed, thank you
01:16:52 <itidus21> flashblock replaces a flash element with a simple element that if clicked on will load the flash element
01:16:58 <elliott> you can undo it after an hour or so
01:16:58 <ais523> elliott: I don't think ops are meant to be used for that
01:17:02 <ais523> you could try uninstalling your IRC client
01:17:03 <zzo38> Who is the message?
01:17:12 <ais523> and then cutting your Internet access wires so you can't reinstall it
01:17:14 <elliott> ais523: but this is the first time i've been tired in months!
01:17:18 <ais523> elliott: go to bed then!
01:17:20 <lambdabot> elliott said 4h 38m 38s ago: Here's something justifying (>>=) as something more than just a convenient abbreviation for (\f -> join . fmap f): it's the type of variable substitution. http://blog.
01:17:20 <lambdabot> sigfpe.com/2006/11/variable-substitution-gives.html -- this is the tree grafting I mentioned.
01:17:24 <monqy> one of my uses of flash blockers is to stop video autoplay
01:17:27 <monqy> but then html5 video and
01:17:30 <elliott> bed is difficult. why bed when irc.
01:17:40 <ais523> elliott: do you really like reading conversations /this/ boring?
01:17:46 <zzo38> Hay you ! Stop putting line breaks in the wrong place like that please
01:18:06 <elliott> ais523: glowing changing screens are more interesting than blackness!
01:18:06 <itidus21> NihilistDandy: ok i know what you mean, its like the browser doesn't want you determining which elements to display
01:18:22 <ais523> elliott: why not just turn your computer off?
01:18:30 <elliott> ais523: it's got IRC on it!
01:18:31 <ais523> it's one button, or possibly two if you have a confirmation
01:18:38 <elliott> no, i have to hold it down for that to work
01:18:47 <elliott> and i'd realise i was getting rid of irc in the middle of it
01:18:55 <ais523> pressing the power button doesn't start a shutdown sequence?
01:18:55 <Sgeo> I could start linking to Station V3 and talking about using PSOX to improve it.
01:18:59 <elliott> also i might lose data because of fsck things
01:19:01 <NihilistDandy> itidus21: In Safari, if I open a tab with a Flash element, it does not load until I give the tab focus, regardless of the plugins I have installed.
01:19:06 <elliott> monqy: that'll dump me at a shell prompt
01:19:19 <ais523> elliott: I'm not talking about hard poweroff; I'm just shocked that soft poweroff isn't the result you get by pressing the power button
01:19:21 <monqy> elliott: then you're pretty much shut down
01:19:25 <ais523> or, hmm, you could always REISUO your system
01:19:27 <monqy> elliott: just type a few words and bam
01:19:35 <elliott> ais523: or you could just kickban me!
01:19:37 <ais523> that's kind-of awkward to interrupt as soon as you hit the E
01:19:53 <elliott> hmm, I could just spam the channel
01:19:55 <ais523> and you don't lose data because of fsck things because that's what the S is for
01:20:19 <Sgeo> elliott, even if you were kick-banned, you might end up just reading stuff online. That's what I tend to do
01:20:29 <elliott> Sgeo: my eyes are almost closed
01:20:36 <monqy> elliott: once you're at the shell prompt it will take more work to get into irc than to shut down
01:20:51 <monqy> elliott: or do you secretly not want to slep....
01:21:08 <Sgeo> elliott, just put us all on ignore
01:21:12 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:21:17 <Sgeo> Or that works too
01:22:15 <zzo38> elliott: I have actually used >>= for something similar to what that says.
01:26:22 <kallisti> Sgeo: NEXT EPISODE ON HOMESTUCK: VAMPIRES VS. CLOWNS. WHO WINS?
01:28:53 <zzo38> Who wins, at what game? Poker or chess?
01:29:07 <zzo38> Or is it Washizu mahjong?
01:30:23 <kallisti> the one were the LOSER FACES DEATH
01:30:30 <kallisti> when you die in real life you die IN REAL LIFE.
01:31:22 <zzo38> When you die in Canada, you die in real life.
01:31:54 <ais523> `addquote <zzo38> When you die in Canada, you die in real life.
01:31:57 <HackEgo> 773) <zzo38> When you die in Canada, you die in real life.
01:32:10 <zzo38> When you die in not Canada, you also die in real life!
01:32:24 <monqy> "When you die in Canada, you die in real life." sounds eerily familiar
01:34:08 <Sgeo> Therefore, if you die in real life, you die in Canada.
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01:34:20 <kallisti> if Gregor had a strife specibus, it would be hatkind.
01:34:46 <zzo38> What does that mean?
01:34:53 <Sgeo> zzo38, Homestuck
01:35:04 <zzo38> Sgeo: That is not a very good logic because not everyone Canada.
01:35:22 * Sgeo is aware of this.
01:35:45 * Sgeo is fully aware that if a then b does not imply if b then a
01:36:25 * Sgeo just wanted to make zzo38 aware that he is aware
01:36:25 <kallisti> Sgeo: btw, THAT IS NOT HOW IMPLICATION WORKS.
01:36:59 <Sgeo> Should I have said necessarily imply?
01:37:06 <kallisti> zzo38: quick, give this operator meaning in Haskell: >|=
01:37:14 <kallisti> zzo38: could it be a barrier monad thing? the | looks like a barrier.
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01:37:54 <Sgeo> > kallisti: Be an Active Worlds bot.
01:38:15 <monqy> this is the worst channel
01:38:28 <kallisti> my goal in life is now to make a Haskell library with every ridiculous operator you could possibly think of.
01:38:34 <kallisti> monqy: no I bet #jesus is actually worse.
01:38:47 <kallisti> also channels that only have one person.
01:38:48 <monqy> sometimes a channel is so bad I forget worse channels exist
01:39:15 <zzo38> kallisti: OK lets me try to think of what it can be..
01:39:17 <Sgeo> monqy, am I really that horrible?
01:39:39 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:39:46 <monqy> Sgeo: it was that single line
01:40:01 <monqy> it was amazing and i love it
01:40:09 <monqy> sometimes things are good because they are bad
01:40:42 <kallisti> my goal is now to find a way to create like 20 new operators in a Haskell library.
01:40:53 <zzo38> kallisti: Do you have ideas?
01:40:53 <monqy> what makes an operator new
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01:41:11 <kallisti> zzo38: but no I don't actually produce ideas.
01:41:15 <monqy> what does (>|=) do
01:41:30 <Sgeo> Template Haskell to take any function of two or more arguments and make a random operator out of it
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01:41:53 <kallisti> so then you just have to guess what the operator is?
01:43:24 <Sgeo> > kallisti: Read MSPA update
01:43:41 <monqy> the activeworlds bot line had more soul to it
01:43:42 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `Sgeo'Not in scope: `okay'
01:46:43 <Tritonio> Hello. Any brainfuck news? Any breakthrough?
01:47:36 <zzo38> If you want to make a library of operators, one thing that could have is the <>>= operator that I have made. You could also have bool x y z = if z then y else x; and make a infix operator form of that possibly
01:47:39 -!- azaq23 has joined.
01:47:50 <Tritonio> For a moment I bought I was in a wrong room.
01:47:52 <zzo38> Tritonio: What about brainfuck specifically do you want to ask?
01:47:59 <itidus21> it has currently been impossible to introduce brainfuck into the junior curriculum for obvious reasons
01:48:26 <Sgeo> Tritonio, we used to play games based on Brainfuck
01:48:42 <zzo38> Yes, and ask if you are interested about those kind of game too.
01:48:53 <Tritonio> Zzo38 anything new. She when do you mean?
01:48:58 <monqy> itidus21: what obvious reasons
01:49:25 <itidus21> that you can't teach anything to young people containing the word fuck
01:49:27 <kallisti> monqy: it has fuck in the name. ha. ha. ha.
01:49:44 <zzo38> Tritonio: Look on the wiki. There isn't really much new, but if you have additional ideas, you can discuss them
01:49:47 <kallisti> Tritonio: I don't forsee any brainfuck "breakthroughs" occurring anytime soon.
01:49:59 <kallisti> let us know if you discover any.
01:51:32 <Tritonio> OK I'll check the brainfuck page she for the games. Kallisti that's bad. What would you say that we start a brainfuck golf for selected problems from project euler?
01:52:19 <Sgeo> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust
01:52:25 <kallisti> because I'd probably kill myself before working through a project euler problem in brainfuck.
01:52:26 <Sgeo> We have (had?) a BF Joust bot in here
01:52:32 <kallisti> I already have enough trouble in non-esoteric languages.
01:52:44 <kallisti> the first few problems would be easy enough though.
01:52:54 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
01:53:22 <ais523> every now and then I come up with a new BF Joust idea and get surprisingly high on the leaderboard with it
01:53:30 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
01:53:32 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
01:53:33 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
01:53:36 <fungot> kallisti: 8 weeks of fnord in hand i've translated here and there.
01:53:52 <Tritonio> Also golf would give new twist to the problems since you need short code and not fast code as usually required by euler.
01:55:25 <zzo38> Mostly the ideas about brainfuck would be about compiling into brainfuck codes and compiling a brainfuck code into something else. LLVM includes an example file to compile a brainfuck code into LLVM.
01:55:34 <itidus21> it was left to the educational department to come up with a suitable alternative name and they unanimously decided on the name LearnTech
01:55:57 <lambdabot> I don't perform such side effects on command!
01:56:48 * Sgeo hits lambdabot with an unsafePerformIO
01:57:12 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `:='
01:57:26 <Sgeo> : is a capital letter.
01:58:13 <zzo38> Sgeo: No, in Haskell : is not a letter, it is a uppercase operator symbol.
01:58:50 <ais523> hmm, that's right, collision and undermine are at #8 and #10 respectively
01:58:55 <ais523> and both were top 10 the day I invented the strategy
01:59:59 <kallisti> > let (=:) = writeSTRef in runST $ newSTRef 2 >>= (\x -> x =: 4)
02:01:43 <kallisti> it would be nice to use on the right-hand side of >>=
02:02:34 <Sgeo> In Control.Arrow
02:02:37 <kallisti> so that you can read left-to-right smoothly instead of having to go backwards on the compositions.
02:02:48 <lambdabot> forall (cat :: * -> * -> *) a b c. (Control.Category.Category cat) => cat a b -> cat b c -> cat a c
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02:03:16 <Sgeo> I mean, that makes more sense than restricting it to arrows, but
02:03:45 <Sgeo> Oh, it's in Control.Category too, and Control.Arrow reexports it
02:04:23 <Sgeo> (.) has different fixity from >>> and <<<
02:04:34 <Sgeo> And >>> and <<< are both infixr for some reason
02:04:45 <Sgeo> (Maybe it doesn't matter infixr vs infixl?)
02:04:58 <kallisti> you mean associativity? or precedence?
02:04:59 <Sgeo> But still, infixr 9 . and infixr 1 >>>, <<<
02:05:02 <monqy> composition is associative
02:05:13 <Sgeo> kallisti, yes, fixity declarations specify precedence and associativity
02:05:31 <NihilistDandy> kallisti: l and r give associativity, and the number is precedence
02:05:41 <kallisti> .....I was not asking a question about what those mean.
02:06:04 <kallisti> he said "fixity" and out of context it didn't make any sense.
02:06:12 <kallisti> because that's not what fixity normally means.
02:06:36 <Vorpal> what does "fixity" normally mean?
02:07:02 <Vorpal> NihilistDandy, hm okay, but "fixity" sounds weird
02:07:14 <kallisti> oh hm, apparently fixity does mean associativity
02:07:18 <NihilistDandy> Yeah. I've never actually seen it used in that sense
02:07:20 <Vorpal> fixedness is what I would use
02:07:21 <kallisti> I thought it meant infix, postfix, prefix, etc.
02:07:58 <Vorpal> why would a game get black bars at the top and bottom of a fucking 16:9 monitor. That is how wide screen it gets!
02:08:20 <Sgeo> o.O Haddock can't parse (.) = (Prelude..)
02:08:40 <Vorpal> I think Prelude.. looks so silly.
02:09:59 <Sgeo> Clean uses o for composition, I think
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02:26:17 <Tritonio> Goodnight everyone. Talk to you soon I hope.
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02:30:46 <kallisti> Sgeo: perl uses sub{f (g @_))} for composition. :)
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02:42:10 <itidus21> Vorpal: the game simply refuses to yield it's display ratio... refuses!
02:42:34 <Vorpal> itidus21, well apart from that it is /the/ best game I ever played.
02:42:48 <Vorpal> I guess it could be a case of aesthetics?
02:43:27 <itidus21> just put some paper matching the color of the screen over the blacked out parts
02:43:41 <Vorpal> itidus21, it is the best game ever because the story is awesome, the game mechanics are solid, the voice acting superb and the graphics the best I never seen.
02:44:20 <itidus21> try a super gameboy style border
02:44:36 <itidus21> you don't want it distracting though
02:44:57 <Vorpal> itidus21, I shall upload some screenshots of this game played on almost-ultra (my high end PC can't do ultra. You basically need a dual-GPU setup to do that)
02:45:25 <itidus21> like.. black and white next to each other gives a jarring contrast
02:48:03 <Vorpal> itidus21, you have to agree this looks crazy-awesome good. Unlike say skyrim. Which looks horrible. http://whotookspaz.org/~anmaster/images/witcher2/witcher2_2011-12-21_02-55-00-69.png
02:48:45 <Vorpal> Skyrim could have been a good-looking game, with more polygons and higher resolution textures
02:48:54 <Vorpal> as it is now it is obviously a console-port
02:49:06 <Vorpal> which also shows in the god damn horrible menu system
02:49:40 <Vorpal> while witcher 2 is obviously a PC-game throughout. The menu system is very suited to mouse and keyboard.
02:49:47 <Vorpal> itidus21, anyway what do you think of that screenshot.
02:49:51 <Vorpal> I could upload some more
02:50:05 <itidus21> im in a chilling out mood so not right now. but it looks good
02:51:01 <Vorpal> itidus21, the plants there, they move realistically. It is not like skyrim where you see that they are made up of some textures on large flat surfaces (that effect was even worse in oblivion)
02:52:15 <Vorpal> @tell elliott You complained about Skyrim textures. Check out the images in http://whotookspaz.org/~anmaster/images/witcher2/ then
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02:54:41 <Vorpal> itidus21, see also http://whotookspaz.org/~anmaster/images/witcher2/witcher2_2011-12-21_02-59-54-57.png for some close-ups from a conversation.
02:54:48 <Vorpal> err for one close-up even
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02:56:41 <Vorpal> oerjan, I haven't seen elliott for some time. Any idea if he is out of town or something?
02:56:50 <Vorpal> or if I just missed him
02:57:14 <ais523> Vorpal: you missed him
02:57:25 <ais523> he was here earlier, and trying to get people to kickban him so that he'd go to bed
02:57:35 <Vorpal> ais523, usually I go to bed before him
02:58:01 <Vorpal> though my sleeping schedule is utterly messed up currently
02:58:05 <oerjan> <elliott> I'm sure oerjan has half a proof sketch :P <-- don't be ridiculous :P
03:00:36 <oerjan> <Tritonio> Hello. Any brainfuck news? Any breakthrough? <-- wait, did no one tell him about my 3-cell TC proof :(
03:01:11 <oerjan> i don't know if he's been around since then
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03:05:18 <pikhq_> Vorpal: elliott's sleep schedule isn't a schedule. :)
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03:07:13 <zzo38> What would be the use of the type $1+2+3+4+\cdots=-{1\over12}$ in Haskell?
03:08:11 <zzo38> Obviously there are no negative or fraction cardinalities but you can still do things like this
03:08:37 <oerjan> zzo38: maybe something with zippers. they're based on using derivation on types, so why not that.
03:09:21 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes that is what I was thinking of too. But I still don't know exactly what it would mean or whatever.
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03:13:03 <Gregor> My vet sent me an email. Make sure not to feed your cat tinsel.
03:13:06 <Gregor> I'll keep that in mind.
03:13:59 <ais523> Gregor: I think there's an implication of "and don't let your cat feed itself tinsel"
03:14:21 <oerjan> rubbish, true cat owners only buy edible tinsel
03:15:03 <oerjan> next: how to decorate a tree with kebab strips
03:15:27 -!- MDude has changed nick to MSleep.
03:16:31 <Gregor> My Tinsel is Purina Dietetic Management Tinsel
03:16:48 <Vorpal> <pikhq_> Vorpal: elliott's sleep schedule isn't a schedule. :) <-- good point
03:17:23 <Vorpal> <zzo38> What would be the use of the type $1+2+3+4+\cdots=-{1\over12}$ in Haskell? <-- that is TeX not Haskell
03:19:04 <pikhq_> True cat owners use catnip Chrismas trees.
03:19:24 <itidus21> and get visits from santa paws
03:20:32 <Vorpal> itidus21, I guess it is Santa Jaws for sharks?
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03:29:44 <coppro> did that ever get resolved?
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03:32:11 <Vorpal> NihilistDandy, and Sata Raws for photographers?
03:33:48 <oerjan> coppro: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Collatz_function
03:34:07 <zzo38> Vorpal: I know that is TeX not Haskell. I meant it just to specify mathematically what I meant
03:35:09 <itidus21> Vorpal: my belief about realism in games etc is that the more real something is the easier it is for a human to comprehend it
03:35:22 <itidus21> ie. the value of improved graphics
03:35:51 <itidus21> the part of me that enjoyed it for what it is has gone numb years ago
03:36:11 <monqy> i love uncanny valley
03:36:17 <itidus21> why do we want to build the uncanny valley?
03:36:36 <itidus21> i mean.. why do we pursue it? :D
03:37:02 <oerjan> itidus21: to get past it, presumably
03:37:03 <zzo38> You can make more realism in games even if you have no graphics at all. The way to do realism is by physics, not by graphics, in my opinion.
03:37:26 <NihilistDandy> Realism in games either has to be indistinguishable from reality or cartoonish enough that it doesn't make people uncomfortable
03:37:39 <itidus21> zzo38: you didn't have time to prepare your opinion of course..
03:37:41 <zzo38> (Of course, if you have graphics, you would want the graphics to correctly reflect the physics of the game)
03:38:24 <zzo38> NihilistDandy: I have read about it.
03:38:35 <Vorpal> <itidus21> Vorpal: my belief about realism in games etc is that the more real something is the easier it is for a human to comprehend it <-- abstractions can help sometimes
03:39:09 <Vorpal> <NihilistDandy> Realism in games either has to be indistinguishable from reality or cartoonish enough that it doesn't make people uncomfortable <-- what about the two screenshots in http://whotookspaz.org/~anmaster/images/witcher2/
03:39:14 <Vorpal> you can still see it isn't real
03:39:20 <Vorpal> but I wouldn't call it uncanny
03:39:43 <Vorpal> yet I would call the graphics superb
03:39:52 <itidus21> i had a chat with a guy once about the uncanny valley and gaming
03:40:19 <NihilistDandy> Vorpal: They are, but they are also obviously not real
03:40:23 <Vorpal> NihilistDandy, well yes
03:40:49 <kallisti> I think people focus too much on graphics. Sure, it can enhance storytelling by giving the game cinematic qualities, but to me the gameplay is far more important.
03:40:52 <itidus21> motion capture can quickly become uncanny
03:41:06 <zzo38> kallisti: Yes I think the gameplay is far more important
03:41:07 <kallisti> to the extent that most of my favorite games either have not amazing graphics or no graphics at all.
03:41:10 <Vorpal> NihilistDandy, also the NPCs do such things as huff on a fire after they light it. That could potentially start being in behavioural uncanny valley
03:41:15 <Vorpal> though not quite there
03:41:37 <zzo38> kallisti: Yes, to me too
03:41:38 <Vorpal> kallisti, agreed. But the whole makes the game.
03:42:00 <Vorpal> NihilistDandy, skyrim has horses without problems
03:42:14 <Vorpal> NihilistDandy, and that is not the reason. The reason is that the distances are small.
03:42:20 <NihilistDandy> Vorpal: Right, but I'd be willing to bet their movements are unsettling
03:42:22 <kallisti> I would say horses in skyrim are actually pretty unrealistic.
03:42:26 <kallisti> they can practically climb mountains.
03:42:31 <Vorpal> NihilistDandy, and many indoor or thick wood areas
03:42:43 <kallisti> same with the dragon movement. not very convincing, though certainly an improvement overall from Oblivion.
03:43:04 <Vorpal> NihilistDandy, yes, because due to bugs they can climb up near vertical slopes. They tend to spaz out while doing so :P
03:43:07 <Vorpal> not what you meant I know
03:43:14 <Vorpal> but no, they are not uncanny otherwise
03:43:44 <itidus21> Vorpal: it is possible you haven't been initiated into the concept of uncanny valley
03:43:53 <Vorpal> itidus21, it is possible I never ran into it
03:44:09 <kallisti> the uncanny valley is bordered on each side by the canny mountains.
03:44:14 <Vorpal> itidus21, anyway I watched raytraced images that are like super-realistic and never found them uncanny
03:44:45 <Vorpal> well right, that is more to do with movements than still graphics
03:45:08 <Vorpal> NihilistDandy, anyway witcher 2 uses motion capture so there...
03:45:13 <itidus21> its when your brain gets confused about whether a thing is a _real_ human or not
03:45:25 <Vorpal> NihilistDandy, couldn't you just do motion capture on horses?
03:46:17 <NihilistDandy> Vorpal: Yes, and they have. But the brain understand more about natural motion than you think. Either it must be indistinguishable from reality, or it must be bad enough as not to be revolting
03:47:03 <Vorpal> NihilistDandy, how comes no one is annoyed at the pretty realistic results you get from motion capture on humans then?
03:47:36 <NihilistDandy> I found LA Noire very difficult to play for long periods
03:48:05 <NihilistDandy> There was something close to real, but just off by a narrow margin
03:48:36 <NihilistDandy> To use an obvious example, what is your natural reaction when you see someone with a prosthetic hand?
03:48:49 <NihilistDandy> Or, more directly, if you found yourself shaking such a hand, how would you react?
03:49:09 <NihilistDandy> Very realistic facsimile, but also not the real thing
03:50:15 <Vorpal> <NihilistDandy> I found LA Noire very difficult to play for long periods <-- while I haven't played it, I watched a Let's Play of it. I didn't have any issues with that
03:50:19 <Vorpal> iirc they used face scanning
03:50:29 <Vorpal> <NihilistDandy> To use an obvious example, what is your natural reaction when you see someone with a prosthetic hand? <-- I never seen one
03:50:51 <Vorpal> the only one I can remember atm is the one of Luke Skywalker, and that is a real hand actually :P
03:52:55 <Vorpal> NihilistDandy, anyway I do hope we get real time raytracing on GPUs in the future. That would be awesome. (Sure it can be done to very limited degrees currently, but I meant for something more complex than a couple of bouncing balls above a plane)
03:53:38 <Vorpal> photon mapping or MLP are so much more expensive that I don't see them coming any time soon
03:55:33 <itidus21> waste of computing power.. ahahhahaha
03:56:21 <itidus21> you don't need graphics that good
03:56:33 <itidus21> it's literally a waste of computer cycles
03:56:57 <Vorpal> itidus21, well who "needs" games anyway?
03:57:27 <itidus21> ok which object do you first imagine when you think of photon mapping?
03:57:56 <itidus21> maybe i read bouncing balls.. cos i thought of a soccer or volleyball
03:57:59 <pikhq> itidus21: You live in the *wrong* timespan to be talking about a "waste of computer cycles".
03:58:06 <Vorpal> itidus21, probably I think of povray. I believe it can do that
03:58:19 <Vorpal> not completely sure though
03:58:25 <pikhq> Your computer spends oodles of time busily doing nothing at all.
03:58:26 <itidus21> i guess i was thinking of blitzball from final fantasy 10
03:58:28 <Vorpal> I know luxrender uses MLP
03:58:45 <itidus21> pikhq: and all the porn on the internet :-s
03:58:57 <Vorpal> pikhq, unless you are doing raytracing :P
03:59:07 <itidus21> the reality is that a lot of what an economy does is garbage
03:59:37 <pikhq> Vorpal: Even then unless you do it in very tightly coded assembly you're chucking away a lot of clock cyclesz.
03:59:55 <itidus21> im just a bitter cynical anxious 29 year old
04:00:20 <Vorpal> pikhq, I'm going to graph the CPU and GPU load when plaing witcher 2
04:00:36 <pikhq> Vorpal: Anyways, realtime raytracing GPUs "should" just be a matter of a few more iterations of Moore's Law.
04:01:04 <Vorpal> pikhq, what about MLP and so on?
04:01:53 <Vorpal> Metropolis Light Transport
04:01:58 <Vorpal> luxrender uses it iirc
04:02:08 <Vorpal> pikhq, unlike photon mapping it is unbiased
04:02:59 <pikhq> Vorpal: Exponentials are powerful shit, man.
04:03:05 <Vorpal> anyway witcher 2 did eat 100% of the GPU. And it peaked on about 35% of the CPU cores that it used. (it used all but one)
04:04:01 <Vorpal> hm witcher 2 ate about half the dedicated GPU memory. While iirc skyrim uses nearly all of it. And GTA IV fill sit completely. How strange
04:04:24 <Vorpal> because witcher 2 is definitely the game with the highest texture resolution
04:04:35 <Vorpal> maybe it is just better optimised
04:05:26 <itidus21> its just that as i age, i have to wonder just what graphics mean to me as a human
04:06:42 <Vorpal> NihilistDandy, btw the plants in witcher 2 actually look realistic in how they move in the wind.
04:06:49 <itidus21> you just figured out i was horribly mentally ill?
04:06:58 <itidus21> or a problem in your cpu calculations :P
04:07:15 <Vorpal> "oh no, not more itidus21-philosophy" actually
04:07:37 <Vorpal> NihilistDandy, they definitely don't look like they are some partly transparent textures on a few flat planes
04:07:43 <NihilistDandy> Vorpal: Plants aren't the issue. They're not at all like people or any other living thing
04:07:43 <Vorpal> they bend in a /lot/ of places
04:08:18 <NihilistDandy> If you're not going to bother learning what the uncanny valley is, I don't know how you plan to disprove it
04:08:30 <Vorpal> NihilistDandy, so it is just humans and animals?
04:08:45 <Vorpal> (otherwise, why would horses be affected)
04:12:01 <Vorpal> NihilistDandy, anyway I might give LA Noir a try at some point, except it looked like a boring version of GTA :P
04:12:17 <Vorpal> well, same developer, the cover mechanics were the same as far as I could tell
04:12:32 <NihilistDandy> It's more of a story game, but the story's a bit lame
04:12:49 <Vorpal> I think they had much less fluid cover mechanics than Deus Ex: Human Revolution
04:13:10 <Vorpal> (a game which looked like shit, probably becuase I played it directly after witcher 2)
04:14:34 <Vorpal> NihilistDandy, I ended up a bit spoiled by witcher 2 I think. I jumped straight from the original NWN and minecraft into witcher 2 when I got my new computer. Which means every other modern games look like shit to me. Well I heard good things about Battlefield 3, haven't played it, don't like that genre.
04:17:46 <Vorpal> oh and I did try rage. It look good in some places and horrible in other. Which is just jarring. Plus I'm not an FPS fan.
04:19:12 <zzo38> I made some computer game too but I generally didn't do like this; whether the graphics or whatever important depend much on the game. Some game it has no graphics.
04:19:41 <itidus21> id software lost their mojo after quake 1
04:20:00 <Vorpal> itidus21, well they definitely lost it by the time of Rage I can tell
04:20:18 <Vorpal> 25 GB installation size and it looked like shit. Wtf...
04:21:02 <itidus21> quake 2, quake 3: arena, quake wars, quake 4, doom 3, rage.. did anybody give a fuck
04:21:37 <Vorpal> I didn't give a fuck about Quake 1 either. Mostly because I don't like FPS.
04:22:06 <Vorpal> I'm okay with stealth FPS/RPG mixes
04:22:26 <itidus21> i dont play much games at all but i know that wolf 3d, doom, doom 2, quake 1 put id right up there on the ma[
04:22:27 <Vorpal> I played Perfect Dark though
04:22:32 <Vorpal> not quite a fan of that
04:23:24 <Vorpal> NihilistDandy, but I did like Deus Ex: Human Revolution, apart from the sub-par graphics I liked it. And I did quite enjoy Fallout: New Vegas. I liked the VATS mechanics of that game
04:23:27 <itidus21> i would like to explain the problem with games but its kinda difficult
04:23:36 <Vorpal> I still prefer fantasy RPGs though
04:23:59 <Vorpal> anyway the good point about both Deus Ex and Fallout 3/NV are they are RPG/FPS mixes
04:24:04 <Vorpal> I don't enjoy pure FPS
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04:26:33 <Vorpal> never played that, I do want to play Planescape Torment at some point, probably some of the Baldur's Gate games too
04:26:39 <Vorpal> the old Bioware games were /good/
04:27:00 <Vorpal> NihilistDandy, what would you say about a Baldur's Gate game with modern graphics?
04:27:09 <kallisti> apparently they're making a new planetside game.
04:27:30 <Vorpal> NihilistDandy, well, with a equally good story as the original of course
04:27:31 <NihilistDandy> The story is really deep and interesting, and the quests are fun
04:27:51 <NihilistDandy> I dunno. I like that I can play BGII on any old machine from the last 10 years
04:28:22 <Vorpal> NihilistDandy, anyway you will just have to wait another 10 years and that will be true for the new game :P
04:28:46 <NihilistDandy> I've played BGII five times through. No other game gets that kind of attention from me
04:29:12 <Vorpal> I never played a game 5 times through
04:29:32 <Vorpal> witcher 2 I played 4 times
04:29:38 <kallisti> Vorpal: I doubt all newer computers will come with off-board graphics cards
04:29:41 <Vorpal> because there are like 4 majorly different endings
04:30:11 <Vorpal> kallisti, so say 20 years then :P
04:30:36 <kallisti> maybe. my prophecy abilities get kind of fuzzy out there.
04:31:12 <kallisti> so I'm pretty excited that the world's ending.
04:31:21 <kallisti> I kind of forgot about the whole 2012 thing.
04:31:31 <Vorpal> did it say when in 2012?
04:31:42 <kallisti> not that I'm aware. I think there may be a specific date.
04:31:51 <Vorpal> might be worth checking that
04:32:50 <Vorpal> so almost a year left then
04:38:21 <Vorpal> NihilistDandy, speaking of games: I hate cut scenes not rendered using the in-game engine
04:38:31 <Vorpal> that was one major annoyance with Deus Ex: HR
04:38:49 <NihilistDandy> I dunno. They were nice in the middle Final Fantasy games
04:39:00 <Vorpal> NihilistDandy, never played any past the SNES ones
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04:39:34 <Vorpal> NihilistDandy, anyway with Deus Ex: HR they were like 720p upscaled to my much larger monitor
04:40:34 <Vorpal> again I have to commend witcher 2 for that. I believe the only pre-rendered screens are the loading screens (and you only get them when loading a game and when it is loading data for the next chapter)
04:40:45 <Vorpal> and they are kind of like paintings or such
04:41:03 <Vorpal> guess I could screenshot that to show what I mean
04:41:13 <Vorpal> heck even the main menu background is rendered with the game engine!
04:44:18 <itidus21> Vorpal: i dont think nihil means the snes ones though
04:44:42 <itidus21> well as everyone knows, snes final fantasies are the best
04:45:13 <Vorpal> itidus21, maybe, I don't know
04:45:25 <Vorpal> anyway here is the loading screen for chapter 1 http://whotookspaz.org/~anmaster/images/witcher2/witcher2_2011-12-22_04-41-20-47.png
04:45:47 <Vorpal> unlike the main menu background
04:46:08 <Vorpal> well obviously the progress "bar" (progress circle?) is animated
04:48:26 <Vorpal> it seems the image viewer in windows uses directx btw, since fraps shows the frame rate in it
04:48:40 <itidus21> so has there ever been a brainfuck with numbers?
04:48:56 <Vorpal> itidus21, you mean like +4 instead of ++++?
04:49:18 <Vorpal> that is common run length encoding
04:49:41 * Sgeo wrote BF-RLE a while ago
04:50:00 <Sgeo> Base-something, >0 means >>> iirc
04:50:06 <Vorpal> I believe bf joust can parse that by like +*5 or such?
04:50:38 <Vorpal> that isn't the usual way
04:50:50 <itidus21> sometimes the usual way isn't the best way
04:50:54 <Sgeo> Vorpal, it makes more sense, I think, because then you get the most bang for every digit
04:52:21 <Vorpal> Sgeo, I would just use gzip if space was an issue
04:52:57 <Vorpal> Sgeo, I'm not a huge fan of source code golfing btw :P
04:53:02 <itidus21> so it was reading kebabbbbbbb which made me ask that question
04:53:04 <Vorpal> it just doesn't interest me hugely
04:53:14 <Vorpal> itidus21, what question?
04:54:00 <Vorpal> interesting side node: .b is brainfuck and .bf is befunge-93
04:54:31 <itidus21> there is of course the question of whether doing that completely defeats the purpose of bfuk or if it introduces a new class of language
04:55:42 <pikhq> The only real reason to us BF-specific RLE is for humans, Sgeo.
04:56:14 <Sgeo> pikhq, and I take it humans don't like large bases and 0 meaning 3?
04:56:22 <itidus21> does the bf compiler convert the sequence of + into a number internally?
04:56:43 <pikhq> Sgeo: We humans use base 10.
04:56:44 <itidus21> oops i guess its implementation dependant
04:57:01 <Vorpal> itidus21, fast ones merge instructions yes
04:57:13 <Sgeo> zzo38 used BF-RLE
04:57:17 <Vorpal> itidus21, like ++- into a single "add 1" or even "set memory to current + 1"
04:57:27 <pikhq> Sgeo: zzo38 may not be human.
04:57:38 <Vorpal> pikhq, snap you beat me to it
04:58:02 <Vorpal> itidus21, I find bf optimisation to be possibly the most interesting aspect of bf
04:58:22 <Vorpal> !bf_txtgen Hello World
04:58:26 <EgoBot> 109 ++++++++++[>+++>+++++++>++++++++++>+<<<<-]>>++.>+.+++++++..+++.<<++.>+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>. [161]
04:58:30 <pikhq> Yeah, it's actually pretty entertaining creating a moderately optimising BF compiler.
04:58:43 <pikhq> As well as generating reasonable Brainfuck.
04:58:49 <Vorpal> like turning that into a fputs("Hello World", stdout) or such
04:59:10 <Vorpal> pikhq, I was thinking utterly optimising one :P
04:59:30 <pikhq> Vorpal: Also true, but that's a bit more work. :P
04:59:35 <Vorpal> pikhq, that is one thing I do while waiting for the bus. Thinking about new ways to optimise bf
04:59:56 <Vorpal> pikhq, yes implementing them are. It is much more fun to design them than to implement them!
05:00:25 <Vorpal> this is true in general of computer software
05:00:36 <Vorpal> (oh god, am I turning into a PH?)
05:02:43 <kallisti> pikhq: what kind of techniques can you use to optimize brainfuck programs?
05:03:08 <kallisti> aside from the obvious "group one or more [+-><] into one operation"
05:05:33 <kallisti> hmmm actually they don't even need to be consecutive. if you can determine that + or - operations are performed on the same memory cell and computing their change all at once doesn't interfere with a loop
05:05:47 <kallisti> then you should be able to do that without problem.
05:06:09 <kallisti> though I doubt that happens very often, and I think the savings would be minimal in most cases.
05:06:12 <pikhq> kallisti: Another fairly easy one is folding pointer-movement operations into the other operations.
05:06:39 <pikhq> For instance, mine folds ">>>++++" into Add 3 4
05:06:45 <zzo38> I have once written a program that does a few optimizations for brainfuck program. Some including brainfuck->brainfuck optimization, others can be done once compiling to something else.
05:06:52 <pikhq> 'Add 4 to p[3]", basically.
05:07:17 <pikhq> Doing that is essential for just about any higher-level optimisation.
05:07:28 <kallisti> yes that's a good one, assuming that you don't have to recalculate that offset over and over.
05:08:26 <kallisti> actually I don't think that would be an issue.
05:08:38 <kallisti> it's always going to be faster than manually moving a cell pointer around
05:09:07 <kallisti> it would be nice to be able to detect swaps and the like.
05:09:32 <pikhq> Otherwise, a lot of what you do is pattern matching on common idioms.
05:10:04 <kallisti> so for example if a loop decrements its dependent cell and adds to two other cells at the same time.
05:10:21 <kallisti> you could eliminate the loop completely and copy the dependent cell into the two new cells, then 0 the dependent cell.
05:10:37 <zzo38> Some of the optimizations I have done, however, are for when you are compiling something else to brainfuck, such as macros or something else whatever. Including cancel out -+ +- <> >< and to replace [[x]] with [x] and [+] with [-] to match them easily and so on.
05:11:12 <kallisti> yeah a number of loop eliminate tricks would greatly speed up code.
05:12:20 <kallisti> I think cases like [->+>+<<] should be possible to spot in a somewhat general way.
05:13:22 <kallisti> also cases with two or more +'s can be converted into multiplication by a cell with a constant.
05:13:22 <itidus21> puzzlang looks interesting. i approve of the idea
05:14:44 <itidus21> i can't say i understand it though
05:16:53 <kallisti> hmmm, could you perhaps determine that a loop always halts when the number of >'s and <'s are even and there's a + or - at the starting location and all loops within it also halt?
05:17:15 <kallisti> s/also halt/can be determined to halt/
05:17:48 <kallisti> (also by even I mean "are equal" not literally that there sum is even)
05:19:00 <kallisti> more generally, if you count + as a +1 and - as a -1, the count of +'s and -'s on the starting location cannot equal 0
05:20:19 <kallisti> I can't think of a counterexample where these conditions are true and the loop doesn't halt.
05:21:01 -!- PiRSquaredAway has joined.
05:21:04 <PiRSquaredAway> "Wikipedia credit cards 9 months interest freecorpus christi free legal advicecreate an robot freecollege free porn videocopy playstation 2 games free softwarecomic cartoon art free xcorn free pudding recipecollage sex videos free"
05:21:10 <kallisti> really all that tells you is that you can run some loop elimination passes, and you now know that at the end of the loop the starting location will always be 0.
05:21:35 <zzo38> If a loop is known to never halt and no I/O is done, the optimizer can emit a warning, replace that part with a idle loop, and delete everything after that point.
05:21:52 <zzo38> (That is, within a block, if it is within a block)
05:22:26 <itidus21> your initial post was just a bt weird
05:22:41 <pikhq> kallisti: You neglected "and there's no input on the current cell"
05:22:54 <PiRSquaredAway> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Content_Server_Adobe_Download_Free
05:22:56 <kallisti> pikhq: those tricky IO operations.
05:23:20 <oerjan> <kallisti> I think cases like [->+>+<<] should be possible to spot in a somewhat general way. <-- we've discussed it before, it's a bit of linear algebra, euclid's extended algorithm and modulo arithmetic (assuming wrapping cells).
05:23:48 <kallisti> pikhq: also I think the opposite (this loop never halts) can also be determined with the same rules, and of course a , on the current cell immediately makes the halting problem unknown.
05:23:52 <pikhq> Yeah, I don't *quite* get the algorithm (mostly because I've not bothered figuring it out), but I know that esotope-bfc does that.
05:25:12 <kallisti> oerjan: what other cases does that algorithm cover?
05:25:48 <PiRSquaredAway> itidus21: I'm stalking, pi, pir, pirs, etc. All the way up to PiRSquared17
05:26:17 <oerjan> kallisti: anything with no further nested loops, i think
05:26:18 <itidus21> i forgot to put a space after "pir:"
05:26:42 <oerjan> kallisti: btw +[++] never halts on common implementations (which don't have odd sized cell ranges)
05:26:44 <itidus21> the autocomplete doesn't kick in without something after it
05:27:18 <kallisti> oerjan: so, more generally, the number of [+-] cannot be an even number.
05:27:41 <zzo38> If a loop known infinite even in caes of input, and that loop does have I/O, then simply remove everything after that loop that is within the same block.
05:27:46 <kallisti> you can't really apply that logic unless you know the exact value beforehand.
05:27:52 <oerjan> kallisti: um [++] without a + in front frequently halts. :P
05:29:17 <oerjan> kallisti: yes. this is part of what you can determine with modulos arithmetic. basically the gcd of the initial value and the +- total on that cell must divide the cell range size, if it's wrapping.
05:32:56 <oerjan> lessee we need i+n*t == m*r, which means... gcd t r divides i.
05:34:03 <oerjan> extended euclid algorithm is needed to find n, and thus the actual number of loop iterations.
05:35:40 <kallisti> I think you could probably reduce the amount of information you need via some special cases.
05:35:56 <kallisti> like when the +- count is 1 or -1
05:36:07 <oerjan> yes, as then you always halt.
05:36:32 <oerjan> odd with common cell sizes, yes.
05:37:03 <oerjan> except unbounded, which is a bit different again.
05:40:20 <oerjan> you can calculate the gcd t r + n*t == m*r at compile time, and then only at most some simple division remains at runtime, i think.
05:40:46 <oerjan> since only i can vary.
05:43:02 <Vorpal> zzo38, "[[x]] with [x]" <- sure, but who uses the former?
05:43:28 <Vorpal> kallisti, if no one mentioned it before, check out esotope-bfc
05:43:31 <zzo38> Vorpal: It might come out after some macro expansions have occurred and then some other things have been eliminated due to cancelling
05:43:42 <Vorpal> brainfuck doesn't have macros
05:43:55 <oerjan> Vorpal: he was speaking about autogenerated bf, sheesh
05:44:01 <zzo38> Well, but you might compile something that has macros into it
05:44:22 <Vorpal> but then lostking.b has dead code in general
05:44:32 <Vorpal> which should have been optimised when generating it
05:49:01 <zzo38> Another thing is that if a loop comes directly after another loop, the second loop can be deleted since it will never be executed (as in ][) and that can be used even with brainfuck codes written directly since it is sometimes used to add comments at the beginning or end of a program
05:49:24 <zzo38> A loop at the beginning of a program can be eliminated for this reason, such as comment
05:49:32 <Vorpal> that is a side effect of value tracking and dead code elimination
05:49:36 <zzo38> Or a macro system generated might put [-] at the beginning possibly
05:49:39 <Vorpal> you don't need to special case it
05:49:52 <Vorpal> if you just track which cells are known to be a specific value
05:51:15 <oerjan> *sigh* now there's a troll on haskell-cafe...
05:52:53 <oerjan> an annoying guy claiming denotational semantics and bottoms don't make sense.
05:53:09 <oklopol> haskell-cafe has just me and another guy, is he a troll
05:53:48 <oerjan> oklopol: well the other option is too horrible to contemplate.
05:54:25 <oklopol> i'm not quite sure if i'm a troll
05:54:33 <oklopol> i don't have like a baseline
05:54:46 <oerjan> but do you have a bottom?
05:55:35 <oklopol> well i have been _|_ many a time
05:55:55 <oklopol> i think i'll keep using my plural.
05:56:19 <oklopol> this is a reference to something we discussed earlier
05:58:24 <oerjan> oh well i guess this haskell-cafe discussion _is_ about what people would want to change in haskell if they made it from scratch.
06:00:57 <oklopol> the problem with haskell is that you have too few monads
06:01:23 <oerjan> well i have been trying to make a backward list monad and failed
06:02:28 <oklopol> hey seriously #haskell-cafe is it?
06:02:38 <oerjan> oklopol: it's an email list
06:02:42 <zzo38> I would probably change some things including to make that Monad require Functor and join is a class method of Monad. But I would have other things changed too, such as having its own preprocessor with powerful instead of using C preprocessor
06:02:44 <oklopol> someone is throwing a tennisball or something around in the hallway
06:03:02 <oklopol> and it keeps hitting my door and i'm like omg someone coming in i'm way too naked for that
06:03:25 <oerjan> the list monad gives an Applicative automatically, like every monad. now every applicative can be turned backwards by switching <*> with <**>.
06:03:31 <zzo38> I also wouldn't have a if...then...else command, instead you can use a function that takes the boolean True/False as its third parameter
06:04:01 <oerjan> the question is, does that extend back to a monad? starting with lists, the answer seems to be no.
06:04:05 <oklopol> so you want a monad that gives the reversed applicative version of the list sure
06:04:54 <zzo38> I know it seem not all backward applicative will be a monad even if the forward applicative is monad
06:05:16 <oerjan> it's easy to see that its join would have to be concat . transpose on _rectangular_ lists of lists.
06:05:50 <oerjan> but the join . join == join . fmap join law breaks. and i think it's unfixable.
06:06:20 <oklopol> (i have no idea what applicative is)
06:06:27 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
06:06:31 -!- oerjan has kicked oklopol oklopol.
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06:07:07 <oerjan> not that i didn't suspect it
06:07:15 <oklopol> i bet you don't know what a derivative is!
06:07:27 <oklopol> we all have our strengths.
06:07:42 <oerjan> sure i know, it's a financial instrument responsible for much of our current crisis.
06:08:14 <oerjan> by allowing bad debt to be hidden.
06:08:18 <oklopol> no it means that a function resembles another function so much that its originality is questionable
06:09:17 <oklopol> the rest is just needless formalism
06:11:18 <oklopol> this is getting weird, they aren't throwing a ball anymore (i'm starting to doubt if they even were)
06:11:24 <oerjan> well i'll leave you to your orgy of fate ->
06:11:29 <oklopol> i should prolly go see if it's a murderer or somethign
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06:29:21 <kallisti> What's a good operator for a substring test?
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06:33:57 <Sgeo> kallisti, update.
06:42:23 -!- zzo38 has joined.
06:43:27 <zzo38> IMPORTANT-NOTE: I wrote "whether is supposed to or not??" but actually I meant "Ka7xe8#??"
06:43:31 -!- zzo38 has quit (Client Quit).
06:45:10 -!- zzo38 has joined.
06:45:19 <zzo38> Or.... possibly..... maybe not.....
06:45:22 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
06:46:16 <itidus21> @tell zzo38 it was funny for me at the time since you were joining and leaving at a high rate. but the joke has expired
06:47:03 <oerjan> :t isInfixOf -- kallisti
06:47:04 <lambdabot> forall a. (Eq a) => [a] -> [a] -> Bool
06:47:20 <oerjan> well, easy, not efficient.
06:47:34 <kallisti> this is merely a syntax choice
06:47:42 <kallisti> it has nothing to do with a specific language
06:47:54 <kallisti> I think I might go with Python's "in" operator
06:47:59 <oerjan> well in that case i recommend -<=!!-&*%
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07:05:16 <ais523> oerjan: that looks like a Feather operator, but I can't decode it
07:05:27 <ais523> I really must start using words for the names of things in Feather
07:05:37 <ais523> it's just /so tempting/ to make all the keywords strings of punctuation marks
07:06:52 <oerjan> _that's_ what i did wrong, i never did that.
07:12:16 <olsner> you didn't come back and become a drug lord and killed yourself?
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07:12:31 <oerjan> i never even got to the far away part.
07:13:18 <oerjan> also, it was never come back, duh
07:16:17 <olsner> you never came back and became a drug lord and killed yourself?
07:17:00 <oerjan> oh hm, i see the topic is ambiguous there
07:18:53 * kallisti is actually getting into a good code/test rhythm.
07:19:02 <kallisti> usually I do massive amounts of coding without any testing, and then test everything all at once.
07:19:17 <kallisti> but today I'm implementing small pieces and testing before moving on to the next.
07:19:43 <oerjan> code/test/rewrite/break/scream/tear hair
07:20:03 <olsner> when i try that I often end up code/test/code/code/code/code/code/oops
07:20:42 <kallisti> these are the words of lesser men.
07:20:47 <olsner> and then try to invent some "good" tests for the 100 completely new features from the coding part
07:20:52 * kallisti is sticking to his incremental code/test thing.
07:21:02 <kallisti> but yes I am a horrible tester actually.
07:21:09 <kallisti> mainly because it's so tedious.
07:22:02 <fizzie> test/code/test/code/test/code, so goes the TDD creed.
07:22:47 <kallisti> In test-driven development, each new feature begins with writing a test. This test must inevitably fail because it is written before the feature has been implemented.
07:22:50 <olsner> why test? just write correct code dammit
07:22:58 <fizzie> Some people say it's the best thing ever, though.
07:23:57 <kallisti> I definitely think it will help me right now, but testing before you code seems kind of senseless to me. I guess it establishes exceptional cases or boundaries or whatever they're called
07:26:10 <Sgeo> kallisti, ARPDOT
07:26:11 <kallisti> the main benefit for me is a) I'm not coding for hours until my focus (and sanity) dissolves away b) I'm not testing for hours until my focus (and sanity) dissolves away
07:26:28 <fizzie> I would suppose it helps in ensuring test coverage if you stick to it, as well as making sure you have interfaces planned ahead. It's one of those XP things, I believe.
07:26:29 <kallisti> cycling between the two kind of refreshes my concentration.
07:29:03 <fizzie> "eXtreme Programming" always sounds like you should be typing code in while base jumping, or something.
07:29:43 <kallisti> there's a thing on facebook called "brogramming"
07:31:00 <fizzie> In "bronygramming", all your identifiers have My Little Pony-esque names. (Not a real thing.)
07:31:00 <kallisti> yes "Brogramming" is listed as one of Mark Zuckerberg's interests.
07:31:29 <kallisti> http://www.facebook.com/getwiththebrogram
07:32:07 <kallisti> I wonder if that man realizes that drinking an entire bottle of grey goose probably isn't going to help him while programming.
07:35:38 <kallisti> oh god: http://techrights.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/ballmer-license.png
07:35:58 <kallisti> this is what happens when you google image search "ballmer curve"
07:36:46 <itidus21> http://www.quora.com/Brogramming/How-does-a-programmer-become-a-brogrammer
07:54:18 <pikhq> kallisti: Him drinking an entire bottle of grey goose may help *me* with programming, though.
07:54:22 <pikhq> He won't be touching the code.
07:54:54 <kallisti> pikhq: I find a few beers are fine.
07:56:08 <pikhq> kallisti: A bottle of a 40% BV solution of alcohol, however?
08:00:32 <olsner> I still don't understand what brogramming is
08:01:43 <kallisti> pikhq: probably not. I'm not at that level of alcoholism yet.
08:02:42 <olsner> ... and I probably don't want to know, either
08:04:13 <pikhq> olsner: Does "frat" have any connotations to you?
08:05:43 <olsner> pikhq: not really... I know it's a thing they have in the us but I'm pretty sure we don't have them here
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08:06:20 <pikhq> olsner: Okay, well that's not going to help, then.
08:07:26 <olsner> oh well, should be heading off now anyway
08:07:44 <pikhq> olsner: "Bro" in recent American parlance refers to guys who wear polo shirts, drink really cheap beer extensively, work out to "attract chicks", do protein shakes to aid with the previous, party a lot, and otherwise act like a bunch of people with significant portions of their brains missing.
08:08:12 <pikhq> Alternately: Jersey Shore.
08:08:20 <olsner> about 2h earlier than I usually get to work :> they'll think I went crazy or something
08:08:40 <olsner> haven't seen jersey shore, but I have heard about it, sounds horrible all of it
08:08:57 <olsner> so brogramming = jersey shore programming?
08:09:21 <pikhq> Not *quite* the same, but the connotations are similar.
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08:12:17 <kallisti> pikhq: I don't know, some aspects of brogramming connotate a positive image.
08:12:34 <olsner> argh! google plus' browser sniffing breaks down again... they should know better than to look at the browser version to figure out what it supports
08:12:44 <kallisti> pikhq: like being well-rounded physically and mentally, and having fun. but otherwise it's just programmers acting "cool"
08:13:32 <pikhq> kallisti: Presumably you're coming into this with the word "bro" being neutral in connotation.
08:14:08 <pikhq> "Brogramming" is going to have as much of a positive connotation as chavgramming in the UK.
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08:14:32 <kallisti> pikhq: what's wrong with bro, bro?
08:14:35 <pikhq> (dear god don't make that a thing)
08:16:52 <kallisti> I didn't make the word "bro" a thing.
08:17:06 <kallisti> anyway you need to chillax, brosky.
08:17:25 <olsner> I think he referred to chavgramming
08:17:34 <pikhq> Don't make chavgramming a thing.
08:17:50 <pikhq> Also, fuck chillax.
08:17:58 <pikhq> And not in a pleasant way.
08:18:58 <olsner> hmm, I wonder what happens if I delete my google+ "profile and added features", they'll probably mess up and delete my mail too
08:19:27 <kallisti> you think it would delete gmail?
08:19:45 <olsner> well, it happened to everyone who got blocked from g+, iirc
08:21:02 <coppro> No, that was different
08:21:49 <coppro> That was because people signed up for google+ and put their age in for the first time, and Google was like "hold on there,you can't be that young, I need to lock you out now"
08:22:45 <olsner> I think that was a later issue, the first one was people who used pseudonyms in google+ and then google decided they'd done goofed
08:23:18 <coppro> I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure they didn't lock people out of gmail due to pseudonyms
08:24:00 <olsner> I'll just avoid doing anything "weird" until I have a replacement for all google services I use :P
08:24:13 <coppro> locking people out was done due to the lameness that is COPPA
08:24:37 <coppro> http://support.google.com/plus/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=1350409
08:25:03 <pikhq> COPPA: because children don't use the Internet.
08:25:13 <olsner> but no, I don't *really* think it's likely they'll delete my mail due to me disabling google+
08:25:28 <coppro> I don't think it's worth trying to migrate off of Google, personally
08:25:34 <coppro> just keep backups of important data
08:26:24 <coppro> (I have a mail forwarding scheme such that I get a local backup of all mail)
08:26:50 <olsner> it's not so much important data - I can probably live with losing most of the mails themselves
08:27:12 <coppro> I should probably keep backups of my docs
08:27:12 <olsner> the thing that needs migrating is stuff like setting up a new e-mail address, figure out what's connected to the old one, etc
08:27:57 <coppro> the rest I don't care about
08:28:02 <coppro> ah yeah, that part is annoying
08:28:11 <coppro> hence my forwarding scheme
08:28:13 <coppro> it's like a giant funnel
08:28:27 <coppro> to ensure that everything goes to multiple destinations
08:31:55 <fizzie> "Some people have reported losing access to all logged-in Google services including email, calendar, docs, even Android phone features. This seems to occur when an account is suspended for supposedly-more-serious Terms of Service violations, however, people like GrrlScientist have experienced this and have no reason to believe they violated anything other than the names policy.
08:31:55 <fizzie> This was claimed to be a “bug” and we were told that they would fix it. Here’s what Google’s VP of Product, Bradley Horowitz, said on July 25th: [strip "no, we're not doing it"] The frequency of these incidents seems to have slowed in the last week, but some accounts in this situation have not been restored, so this is still an issue."
08:32:00 <fizzie> (Source: Skud's blog.)
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08:42:34 <coppro> so it turns out there is an "export all docs" button
08:42:54 <coppro> fizzie: thanks for the correction
08:43:00 <coppro> at least that bit wasn't intentional
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09:16:37 <kallisti> is it strange that I give my computer's female names?
09:16:49 <kallisti> everytime someone notices my comp name they comment on it and I have to explain.
09:17:07 <kallisti> I think it's similar to the practice of giving ships female names.
09:19:10 <shachaf> Is it strange that I pluralise word's with apostrophe's?
09:19:58 <shachaf> But so many other peopl'e do it. It only seem's natural.
09:21:20 <kallisti> I'll fuck up English if I please.
09:21:36 <kallisti> I'm not writing a novel, research paper, formal proposal, news article, etc...
09:22:39 <shachaf> I never said yo'u we're writing any novel's, research paper's, formal proposal's, new's article's, etc's
09:22:53 <shachaf> @google angry flower apostrophe
09:22:54 <lambdabot> http://www.angryflower.com/aposter.html
09:25:54 <kallisti> shachaf: I'm just saying there's no need to make a big deal out of it. It's unecessary. Yes, I've seen that. Yes I understand English grammar. Let it rest. kthx.
09:26:54 <kallisti> I never said you were angry either.
09:30:12 <pikhq> I prefer pluralising wordś with the letter ś.
09:30:38 <pikhq> Thingś like that are wonderful, as I'm sure all you peoplé will agree.
09:30:57 <fizzie> I used to give Apple-made computers (of which we had two: two iBooks) female names.
09:32:01 * pikhq has tended to go with Tolkein names
09:34:01 <fizzie> Such as Frood, Gandlaf, and such?-)
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09:49:01 <pikhq> I before e except WHEN I SAY SO is the rule, right?
09:49:32 <Sgeo_> I before e except after c but not always like in science.
09:50:20 <pikhq> That has got to be the most pointless "rule" ever phrased about English spelling.
09:51:34 <kallisti> pikhq: a deceitful naysaying rulehating fiend is not a friend of mine.
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09:52:31 <kallisti> inb4 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_before_E_except_after_C#Exceptions
09:53:59 <pikhq> Sgeo_: English has rules, to be sure.
09:54:24 <pikhq> Those rules are something along the lines of "He who demands consistent orthography shall be shot".
09:54:46 <kallisti> pikhq: PRESCRIPTIVIST. RULES ENGLISH AM ANY NOT STRAWBREEKS.
09:55:48 <pikhq> kallisti: Þy claims are folly, good ſir. Beſides which, I am not ſure of what þeſe "ſtrawbreeks" of which þou ſpeak'ſt *are*.
09:56:18 <kallisti> English rules are just normative practices, bro. English is like... people, man. whatever people are.
09:57:01 <HackEgo> coutacherld modwed nentichfor vensigkj sumarius re byrn nitesony hiancermezineitmasteh pitearturtoen acopois cocclick mil smunthayaggin ace tatula welle mendium neal amakiyanthenizhug libtisidsagostrangroff kailicas agillum ampelveri caft impoodoblatiterdie halfatlini sus stitsolisian sholus krovs heon ins momistumirine re prostssinstatnamurac azzel tepieniquerejlastauntiong cluselfomitnda de con apartors te vomperm
09:57:03 <kallisti> ^^^ now all of these are English words.
09:57:56 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl \ $VAR1 = { \ 'qz' => { \ 'e' => 1, \ 'k' => 1, \ 'a' => 1, \ ' ' => 9, \ 'i' => 1, \ 'o' => 2 \ }, \ 'sp' => { \ 'w' => 9, \ 'r' => 3173, \ 'a' => 5192, \ 'd' => 67,
09:58:25 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.23162
09:58:36 <pikhq> So... It's a frequency table of letters and digraphs in English used to generate "words"?
09:59:11 <kallisti> it works surprisingly well, and will actually work better once I finish up recent improvements I've made.
09:59:34 <pikhq> Yeah, Markov models are really good at creating reasonable-seeming nonsense.
09:59:51 <fizzie> fungot: Wouldn't you agree?
09:59:52 <fungot> fizzie: bitwize that's usually only a strategy for using it to learn scheme well, have fun with whenever they suffer the same problem
10:00:03 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
10:00:07 <pikhq> A good 3/4ths of those seem to fit English sound-wise.
10:00:10 <kallisti> come on, you know you want smunthayaggin to be an actual word.
10:00:16 <fizzie> fungot: What is your position on the Markov model suggestion?
10:00:17 <pikhq> Though they don't really fit morphemically.
10:00:18 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, i will mention only the most important things we can deal with it not as a restriction on the use of litigation. so i believe that the current cooperation with the countries of the european dimension and the issues they have raised are ones on which parliament has had to be created and the extra conditions demanded out of the agri-environmental budget. the community programme ' europe against cancer' progr
10:00:47 <pikhq> "Byrn" I can't believe is not English.
10:00:56 <kallisti> pikhq: the next version will have around 24 datasets and will allow you to interpolate multiple datasets together.
10:01:20 <kallisti> pikhq: also (hopefully) the word ending code will be fixed so that it more closely resembles the lengths of words from its dataset.
10:01:45 <pikhq> Oh, good, "byrn" is an English surname.
10:02:19 <kallisti> yes with short words there's higher probability of accidentally being real English, of course.
10:02:54 <pikhq> Like most languages, English seems to have filled the single syllable space pretty well.
10:02:54 <kallisti> actually I bet that probability will go up when I up to gramage by 1.
10:03:37 <pikhq> Though few languages fill that space as well as the Chinese ones do. Alas.
10:03:48 <kallisti> so in the next version it will be the preceding 3 characters that determine the next one.
10:04:04 <pikhq> (in the language family, generally a syllable corresponds to a word or morpheme)
10:06:03 <HackEgo> can copperia th uchente fe cougerever
10:06:08 <pikhq> geafixzzwe bberegputsur
10:06:26 <pikhq> "Copperia" must be a country.
10:06:33 <pikhq> That is, if it isn't I shall make it so.
10:06:42 <fizzie> Copperia is famous for its copper exports.
10:07:04 <fizzie> busybox: ELF 32-bit MSB executable, MIPS, MIPS32 version 1 (SYSV), statically linked, with unknown capability 0x41000000 = 0xf676e75, with unknown capability 0x10000 = 0x70403, stripped
10:07:04 <fizzie> $ mips-linux-ldd busybox
10:07:04 <fizzie> busybox: not an ELF file.
10:07:04 <fizzie> "What." Okay, yes, it's statically linked, but it so is an ELF file. (mips-linux-readelf and mips-linux-objdump have no problems with it.)
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10:11:23 <fizzie> Holy holitude that was confusing; for the lulz I tried to run it, and it actually ran without problems.
10:11:50 <fizzie> Turns out someone's set this thing up so that MIPS binaries get run by /usr/bin/qemu-mips-static automagically.
10:11:55 <fizzie> Must be the qemu package.
10:19:39 -!- elliott has joined.
10:22:34 <kallisti> elliott: HI ELLIOTT HOW ARE YOU
10:22:46 <kallisti> OR WAIT IT'S LIKE NOON OR SOMETHING?
10:22:55 <kallisti> I suck at non-American timezones.
10:23:17 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
10:23:45 <elliott> i woke up at 9, after having gone to bed at 2
10:23:57 <elliott> i need 10 hours sleep at the minimum
10:24:13 <kallisti> I find that my sleep needs rapidly fluctuate.
10:24:22 <kallisti> I think 8 hours is fine normally though
10:25:17 <kallisti> well, this is perhaps one of the stranger meals I've made.
10:26:14 <monqy> good strange or bad strange
10:26:21 <kallisti> macaroni and cheese with a dab of worcestershire sauce, ritz crackers with a choice of barbecue sauce or raspberry honey mustard dip (where do I find these things), and a glass of grape juice.
10:26:29 <monqy> strange strange? strange strange.
10:27:16 <kallisti> Worcestershire sauce is amazing. Did I mention that?
10:28:10 <elliott> hmm, my attempt to bait apfelmus into answering my question has failed
10:28:26 <kallisti> it basically enhances the flavor of anything savory.
10:30:55 <kallisti> but then again I'm kind of biased in that I pretty much love every condiment ever made.
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10:36:44 <kallisti> I find the similarities between teriyaki and barbecue interesting.
10:37:13 <kallisti> they're simultaneously cooking methods as well as the sauce used, and originate from different cultures.
10:37:47 * kallisti googled for: barbecue teriyaki
10:43:40 <kallisti> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marmite
10:43:49 <kallisti> weirdest condiment ever. perhaps I shall try it one day.
10:45:12 <elliott> is marmite the same as vegemite, i think it is, i have had neither
10:45:21 <elliott> monqy: help, i started understanding arrow notation
10:47:12 <elliott> monqy: i guess so??? i am reading: an frp paper
10:47:46 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2672791/is-functional-gui-programming-possible/8082179#8082179 quality stack overflow answers
10:50:03 <Ngevd> elliott, your reputation is skyrocketing
10:50:37 <shachaf> elliott: Don't worry, your reputation will never change in my eyes.
10:51:39 <elliott> kallisti: NOBODY BUYS SOFTWARE WRITTEN IN HASKELL, YOU DOUBLE CLICK THE .EXE AND NOTHING HAPPENS
10:51:58 <shachaf> elliott: I refuse to double-click things unless they're .LNKs.
10:52:21 <elliott> shachaf: Do you right click -> open the others?
10:52:51 <shachaf> elliott: No, I right-click -> create shortcut, and then double-click that.
10:54:08 <elliott> The simplest components are labels, defined as:
10:54:08 <elliott> flabel :: GUI LabelConf ()
10:55:26 <kallisti> elliott: wtf you've had an account for 9 days and you're already up with people who have been stackoverflowing for years?
10:56:34 <elliott> People who don't use it regularly, sure
10:56:49 <elliott> If you mean the http://stackexchange.com/leagues/1/week/stackoverflow/2011-12-18 ranking, that's per-week
10:57:04 <kallisti> elliott: so it like, drops from inactivity? how does that work.
10:57:18 <kallisti> I don't understand these arbitrary points systems.
10:57:26 <elliott> kallisti: No, I just mean that if you've been using it for years, you'll only have less rep than me if you don't use it actively
10:57:26 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
10:57:57 <kallisti> you apparently have 5 silver pieces and 23 copper pieces. is stackoverflow an MMO?
10:58:24 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/users/1097181/ehird?tab=badges ;; my precious loot
10:58:27 <shachaf> elliott: As one person in this channel would say: What
10:58:34 <kallisti> elliott: oh nevermind I misread the thingy on the user tab to mean total reputation.
10:58:44 <kallisti> elliott: but the 3 years people have reputation in the hundreds of thousands.
10:58:49 <shachaf> @tell elliott Is this a question?
10:58:52 <kallisti> elliott: when you click users at the top of the page
10:58:55 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
10:59:14 <lambdabot> shachaf said 24s ago: Is this a question?
10:59:15 <Ngevd> Yay I posted my first stack overflow answer
10:59:16 <shachaf> elliott: Anyway, I'm pretty sure telliott works better than Tachaf.
10:59:43 <elliott> kallisti: It's actually impossible to surpass a lot of people at the top now, since the daily reputation cap hasn't been there forever
10:59:43 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
10:59:49 <elliott> And since they're not going to stop reaching it every single day
11:00:00 <elliott> There's no cap on rep from accepted answers and bounties
11:00:09 <elliott> So I guess if you worked in a team...
11:00:15 <shachaf> @eval Don't want lambdabot notifying me.
11:00:21 <shachaf> @eval I guess I'd better speak like this from now on.
11:00:25 <kallisti> @Niklas, wouldn't it still hold? I mean if last [] = [] – Magnus Kronqvist 1
11:02:20 <Ngevd> I don't strictly speaking know any programming languages
11:02:24 <Ngevd> BUT THAT WON'T STOP ME
11:02:28 <elliott> Ngevd: You definitely shouldn't avoid <bdi>.
11:02:55 <elliott> A page remains legible even if it doesn't work, and it improves usability for people using RTL languages.
11:03:52 <shachaf> @eval RTL LANGUAGES R DUMB
11:04:15 <elliott> Although admittedly it doesn't seem like anyone implements it yet.
11:04:15 <lambdabot> shachaf: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
11:04:31 <elliott> Ngevd: But it's semantically nice and has no drawbacks for a browser that doesn't support it.
11:04:39 <kallisti> Ngevd: wait what you don't know any programming languages?
11:04:59 <Ngevd> kallisti, not well enough to answer most of these questions
11:05:12 <Ngevd> I'm conversational in Haskell and Python
11:05:12 <itidus21> Ngevd: i recommend you begin with the hello world language
11:05:12 <shachaf> Ngevd: Well, you know what they say.
11:05:16 <shachaf> When life gives you marmals...
11:05:28 * kallisti could probably answer some Perl questions. Hopefully without making any mistakes.
11:05:36 <kallisti> if I take time to research a little to verify what I say.
11:05:54 <itidus21> you type a "h" as input.. and it produces "Hello world!" as output or something
11:06:15 <monqy> there are a few languyages that do that
11:06:29 <itidus21> theres also a case sensitive version which can be a quine
11:06:36 <kallisti> "a language optimized for scanning arbitrary text files, extracting information from those text files, and printing reports"
11:07:03 <kallisti> though they forgot to mention that it's also practical.
11:07:09 <kallisti> but they got the extraction and report part
11:07:12 <Ngevd> Oh dear god I have reputation
11:07:45 <kallisti> also "optimized" might be the wrong word. you might get the impression that it's generally going to be fast.
11:07:54 <itidus21> Ngevd: you are certainly well known in the hamlet of hexham
11:08:55 * elliott considers posting a better answer than Ngevd's, but decides he doesn't want to be recorded as answering an HTML question.
11:09:15 <shachaf> I answered an HTML question. :-(
11:09:36 <shachaf> And it was because someone linked to my website so I saw the question in the logs.
11:09:44 <shachaf> Ngevd: The reason you have reputation without answering any questions is that your reputation precedes you.
11:10:04 <Ngevd> shachaf, I have answered one whole question!
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11:12:14 <itidus21> <exciting event="ngevd answered a question"/>
11:12:36 <elliott> monqy is inside himself.................
11:12:46 <elliott> oh now we're double outside monqy... help
11:12:56 <elliott> it's an antimatter version of monqy
11:13:02 <itidus21> we're in undefined monqy space
11:13:12 <elliott> know what the word "undefined" even means
11:13:14 <monqy> i pfrefer defined monqy space...
11:13:57 <itidus21> elliott: well as it is <monqy> </monqy> </monqy> ... where are we !?!
11:14:19 <itidus21> how can we close tags twice after opening once
11:14:24 <monqy> you forgot the escapes.....
11:14:30 <elliott> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/partial-lens i like the idea but don't like the duplication with data-lens :(
11:14:39 <itidus21> the browser will act like nothing is wrong ;_;
11:14:43 <elliott> itidus21: you just ... unwrapped us again :(
11:15:01 <itidus21> the browser is apathetic to the grammar of tags
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11:31:28 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
11:39:21 <fizzie> http://rt.com/news/patriot-missile-seized-finland-415/ "On board the British bulk carrier Thor Liberty, Finnish customs found 69 surface-to-air Patriot missiles and 160 tons of picrite explosives, being carried under the guise of fireworks."
11:39:30 <fizzie> Well, new year's coming... but that's quite some fireworks.
11:41:40 <fizzie> No, they're apparently going to South Korea.
11:42:01 <elliott> kallisti: I like how I am making everyone do SO?
11:42:15 <elliott> kallisti: But yeah, I had that problem with my first answer; someone else added it in and it netted me over 100 reputation.
11:42:20 <Phantom_Hoover> "reported Finnish Interior Minister Päivi Räsänen, who called the incident ‘abnormal’."
11:43:13 <fizzie> Also: "The logistics company moving the shipment insists the arms and explosives got on board the Thor Liberty “by mistake”."
11:44:07 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/users/1111591/kallisti
11:44:22 <Phantom_Hoover> "See, what happened was, we had all these missiles in case of pirates, and all these fireworks, and we mixed the two up. The pirates were surprised too."
11:47:30 <fizzie> Also in Finnish news: there's been an EARTHQUAKE. Of magnitude 2.6 on the Richter scale.
11:47:59 <fizzie> Apparently it's news because some people, and not just instruments, noticed.
11:48:18 <kallisti> elliott: er, actually, that's not me, that's the famous documentarian.
11:49:11 <elliott> kallisti: Wow, it's even a non-terrible answer.
11:49:14 <elliott> I might even... UPVOTE It.
11:49:21 <kallisti> elliott: I answered the fuck out of that question.
11:49:32 <kallisti> probably answered it too much.
11:49:36 <Phantom_Hoover> <fizzie> Apparently it's news because some people, and not just instruments, noticed.
11:49:48 <kallisti> elliott: riding on the coat tails of legends.
11:49:50 <elliott> kallisti: Dude, my entire philosophy is banging out gigantic walls of text in response to simple questions.
11:49:58 <elliott> kallisti: In one sitting, without editing back much.
11:50:02 <elliott> As soon as I see the question.
11:50:02 <kallisti> elliott: I think it will be effective.
11:50:09 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Actually I'm not even sure anybody noticed, the article doesn't say. But there was a 2.9 (gasp!) quake recently, which apparently was.
11:50:26 <fizzie> "Magnitude: 2.0–2.9 -- Earthquake effects: Generally not felt, but recorded."
11:50:39 <kallisti> cool so now I can add those links
11:51:40 <elliott> kallisti: That requires 100 reputation.
11:51:51 <elliott> Easy to achieve on your first day, naturally.
11:52:12 <elliott> kallisti: (Accepted answers get you +15, and downvotes are rare.)
11:52:27 <kallisti> elliott: I wanted to provide link for scalar and wantarray
11:52:39 <elliott> kallisti: Post in the comments linking to them, it's the same Markdown syntax.
11:52:43 <elliott> A good samaritan might edit them in.
11:52:56 <elliott> It might even be me (probably not, I don't want the Perl taint).
11:53:01 <kallisti> I almost went into the ()=... trick to enforce list context but decided it was probably within rambling threshold at that point.
11:53:02 <elliott> That happened with my first answer.
11:54:04 <kallisti> !perl print scalar (()=(35,26234,23))
11:54:16 <kallisti> !perl print scalar (35,26234,23)
11:55:33 <kallisti> oh, you want to get the length of an arbitrary list? obviously that's just scalar (()=list_expr)
11:57:05 <elliott> @pl \(x, f'), y) -> ((x, y), first f')
11:57:06 <lambdabot> expecting letter or digit, operator, ",", pattern or "->"
11:57:09 <elliott> @pl \((x, f'), y) -> ((x, y), first f')
11:57:10 <lambdabot> uncurry (uncurry ((. first) . flip . ((,) .) . (,)))
11:58:27 <kallisti> elliott: I'm aware. Do you think I can't read or something? :P
11:59:03 <fizzie> There was a retracted proposal about a 'list' counterpart to 'scalar' -- http://www.mail-archive.com/perl6-language%40perl.org/msg03404.html
11:59:43 <kallisti> I'm actually kind of surprised that there's no way to enforce void context
11:59:52 <kallisti> though.... I know it wouldn't make any sense to do so
12:00:46 <kallisti> elliott: I can participate in meta now. That sounds scary.
12:00:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Wow, the Apollo guidance computers were made of 4100 3-input NOR gates.
12:01:53 <elliott> I would like to reiterate: HOW THE FUCK DID WE GET TO THE MOON
12:02:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, wait, the ones they actually used on crewed flights only had 2800.
12:02:17 <Ngevd> elliott, NOBODY KNOWS
12:02:31 <Ngevd> We used ancient technology which has been lost in the tempest of time
12:02:39 <elliott> Stop it, 60s, you're making us look like idiots.
12:02:55 -!- hagb4rd2 has joined.
12:03:04 <elliott> They were shrines to the vengeful god Nor.
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12:06:15 <kallisti> "Why doesn't Perl compile to binary files like python"
12:06:39 <Ngevd> Answer it as sarcastically as you can
12:06:54 <elliott> Ngevd: That would be a dumb idea.
12:07:09 <Ngevd> Hence why I only have 11 reputation
12:07:48 <elliott> Ngevd: You just answered a question from November. :p
12:08:05 <Ngevd> November was THE BEST MONTH
12:08:28 <elliott> I don't want anyone to upvote mine though, feels like cheating.
12:11:52 <fizzie> They're all pod people.
12:14:58 <kallisti> Ngevd: hahahaha I have 21 reputation and 1 copper piece.
12:15:05 <kallisti> I WILL SOON HAVE ALL THE COPPER PIECES
12:15:14 <Ngevd> http://stackoverflow.com/users/1097904/taneb
12:15:32 <Ngevd> I've also answered more questions than you
12:15:55 <fizzie> What can you buy with the copper pieces?
12:16:36 <fizzie> I think that place would be much more popular if you could buy some weapons and shoot other people's answers.
12:17:40 <kallisti> elliott: I found a glass tag expecting people to eagerly be asking questions about Glass
12:17:54 <kallisti> turns out it's something else.
12:18:30 <kallisti> must. not. answer. java. questions.
12:31:43 <kallisti> Ngevd: this is merely an indication that my answers are of higher quality than yours.
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12:41:04 <elliott> kallisti: you just answered a question from april
12:41:34 <fizzie> Better Nate than lever.
12:43:16 <kallisti> elliott: I'm going through some uncommon tags.
12:43:38 <elliott> kallisti: Well sure, I guess if you're more interested in the betterment of humanity than reputation...
12:44:50 <kallisti> I like how being delicious is a genetic adaptation.
12:45:23 <kallisti> it wants me to spread its seeds.
12:45:43 <kallisti> but instead we mass produced them for their delicious yield.
12:46:05 <kallisti> I wonder if fruits are getting more delicious.
12:46:17 <kallisti> because we selectively breed them. maybe.
12:47:44 <kallisti> hmmm okay so there's ACC on Freenode and STATUS on Rizon
12:47:59 <kallisti> what are the other ways to check for authentication on IRC networks?
12:48:15 <elliott> kallisti: Have you seen a wild banana.
12:48:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: (Come on bananas are way more the obvious example hre.)
12:49:57 <kallisti> Wikipedia: It was considered okay behavior to simply /ignore NickServ's notices, but an operator decided to /kill NickServ and use the nickname NickServ himself, subsequently collecting all identify passwords from users and being amused by that.
12:50:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The INTERNET has!!!
12:50:14 <kallisti> "and being amused by that" good to know.
12:50:21 * kallisti is tempted to [citation needed]
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12:52:38 <kallisti> why are all nickservs not the same help IRC sucks
12:53:32 <kallisti> so having /actual/ secure administratorship for a bot will be difficult.
12:53:43 <kallisti> or, well, more difficult than I would like.
12:58:41 <elliott> kallisti: with freenode authentication is in /whois.
12:58:46 <elliott> but who the fuck uses non-freenode anyway
12:59:34 <kallisti> elliott: also I like nickserv's acc because it's a bit easier to check.
12:59:40 <kallisti> I don't have to wade through the other data
12:59:47 <kallisti> it just returns a status number.
13:00:35 <kallisti> on the other hand, I think a lot of networks show authentication in whois so that may be a good idea.
13:01:40 <fizzie> On freenode, you can use that cap identify-msg stuff.
13:02:45 <fizzie> Though I'm not entirely sure it's "identified with an account holding the current nick" or just "identified with some account".
13:03:24 <kallisti> elucidate me (totally incorrect usage of that word) on this "cap identify-msg" thing you speak of
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13:04:14 <fizzie> It prefixes each message with + or - depending on whether the sending user's identified.
13:04:25 <fizzie> http://freenode.net/seven-for-hyperion-users.html -- they've recently changed the mechanism, though.
13:04:33 <fizzie> It used to be with 'capab'.
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13:07:45 <kallisti> oh look, an irssi script, written in perl
13:07:56 <elliott> kallisti: Got 1000 rep yet?
13:08:12 <fizzie> If it's actually just "identified with services" indicator, it might not be very useful.
13:08:13 <kallisti> also people keep asking tough questions. sheesh.
13:09:53 <kallisti> I basically just intend to keep track of people's identification status when they join channels, and occasionally when they speak.
13:10:53 <kallisti> actually it would probably be easier just to check identification status when needed.
13:11:10 <kallisti> I'm not sure if my bot library can do that. maybe with a thread??
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13:11:24 <kallisti> I'm not sure how well it handles asynchronous stuff.
13:11:26 <elliott> @pad: If you're serious about multicore parallelism then you need to forget about Haskell and study how real parallel programs are written. I explained this in detail in my answer but it got downvoted into oblivion in under 9 hours! – Jon Harrop Apr 9 at 9:00
13:11:30 <elliott> delicious jon harrop tears :')
13:11:40 <elliott> i wonder how he sleeps at night
13:11:59 <kallisti> Haskell: not really doing parallelism
13:12:53 <fizzie> Haskell: not real, all in your imagination.
13:13:26 <elliott> Well it prevents the programmer from doing side effects.
13:13:33 <elliott> So there's no reason the .exe that does nothing that the user won't buy even has to exist.
13:14:53 <kallisti> elliott: well you need to know if your program has errors.
13:15:04 <kallisti> partial functions can still produce errors even without side-effects.
13:15:30 <kallisti> though I guess without a main function you have no actual order of execution.
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13:21:14 <elliott> kallisti: A REPL has side-effects :)
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13:25:11 <kallisti> elliott: implementation detail. like seq. :>
13:29:56 <kallisti> though, I guess in a call-by-value language seq would be completely normal. hm
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13:37:21 <kallisti> http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=3lTd5LpB6Ao
13:39:52 <elliott> kallisti: you know seq doesn't have side-effects, stop trolling :P
13:41:39 <elliott> hmm, perhaps I will sneak a link to my question in a feature request
13:42:43 <kallisti> elliott: I can see how it's kind of ridiculous to say that evaluating expressions is a side-effect, however I'm not entirely convinced in this case that it isn't one in this case.
13:43:00 <elliott> kallisti: no. stop. please. you're going to make yourself look like an idiot again.
13:43:10 <kallisti> no that's all I have to say about it.
13:44:46 <kallisti> perhaps what is a side-effect depends on your evaluation model.
13:46:23 <kallisti> consider the inverse of seq in a mostly call-by-value language. It forces its first argument to be non-strict and then returns its second argument.
13:46:32 <kallisti> I think that would be a side-effect.
13:46:32 <elliott> thankfully, the definition of seq _does not depend on the evaluation model_
13:46:42 <elliott> haskell specifies only a non-strict /semantics/, there is not even a notion of time passing.
13:46:50 <elliott> i am not discussing this further because it will just be a rehash of the previous idiocy, however.
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13:47:59 <kallisti> feel free to link me to the definition of seq in relation to Haskell's semantics. I'm curious.
13:48:39 <elliott> I'm not going to encourage you by linking you to a document you can trivially find yourself.
13:48:57 <elliott> Especially when you are practically guaranteed to just try and warp it to fit your perception of things.
13:48:59 <kallisti> encourage me to learn? shame on you.
13:49:05 <kallisti> what if I associated reputation points to the act?
13:49:12 <kallisti> I'll keep a tally. currently you have 0 reputation points.
13:50:48 <elliott> kallisti: You can't learn if you start with preconceptions.
13:51:22 <kallisti> it's literally impossible to not have preconceptions. More importantly, preconceptions does not limit ones ability to learn. They're just placeholders from reasoning by intuition.
13:52:06 <kallisti> but, I can see you wish to continue thinking I have never once changed a preconceive notion. Cool.
13:52:07 <elliott> It is impossible to learn when you hold on to preconceptions about the thing you are learning.
13:52:25 <elliott> Whether you find yourself unable to eliminate such preconceptions or not is not something I particularly care about.
13:53:22 <kallisti> Your reputation score isn't looking very promising.
13:53:32 <kallisti> Perhaps I'll post it online so you have incentive.
13:54:13 <elliott> Ooh, you used serious mode.
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14:08:17 <elliott> "Is there a list of hackage packages that fail to compile with this release?" "All of them is probably a good approximation."
14:34:29 -!- PiRSquaredAway has changed nick to PiRSquared17.
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15:06:59 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA i mean hi
15:08:50 <elliott> "This account is a chimera of several user accounts following a stackexchange mix-up."
15:10:33 <fizzie> Makes one wonder whether they've been chimerified in real life, too, following a stackexchange mix-up.
15:11:12 <fizzie> The way you're all now doing it, I suspect tomorrow a kalliottgevd will join #esoteric.
15:12:13 <Vorpal> elliott, did you see that lambdabot message?
15:13:53 <elliott> fizzie: Well, the account is still active.
15:13:57 <elliott> fizzie: I wonder if they're all using it.
15:14:06 <elliott> fizzie: (Its name is "Complicated see bio".)
15:15:12 <fizzie> They're all each other's "it's complicated".
15:15:29 <elliott> Oh, I thought it was a complex marine organism.
15:17:21 <elliott> oerjan: Come on, swat me for that.
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15:29:50 <fizzie> "With words of pants stupid stuff." -- Saruman.
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15:30:16 <Vorpal> elliott, but seriously, what did you think about those screenshots?
15:42:19 <elliott> They were made out of bits.
15:42:22 <elliott> "Paddleball is a fun game, but, as defined here, it only plays one game. Our
15:42:22 <elliott> first refinement to the game is to add a restart button that allows us to play
15:42:22 <elliott> again, as show in figure 5."
15:44:18 <fizzie> "Unfortunately sensing minimum and make peace s terminal take Thompson together." -- Saruman.
15:45:53 <fizzie> Yeah, sometimes he's not very coherent.
15:46:14 <fizzie> (At least when seen through Youtube's "transcribe audio" feature.)
15:46:28 <Gregor> elliott: <elliott> "This account is a chimera of several user accounts following a stackexchange mix-up." // what account?
15:48:36 <fizzie> "Students... What do you want, dozens of gray matter? Yes... fifty-year-old sign, or perhaps it is a product to itself, along with the problems of the second thing that is the road to the following questions", muses Saruman. "Literature is irritating students. Citizens need this!" counters Gandalf.
15:51:52 <Sgeo_> Gregor, there seems to be a bunch
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15:59:40 <elliott> Gregor: "Complicated see bio". :p
16:01:17 <Gregor> elliott: Can't has URL? >_>
16:01:47 <Gregor> Holy crap, there ARE a lot of them.
16:02:02 <elliott> Gregor: Nah, there's only one.
16:02:06 <elliott> It just has accounts on multiple sites.
16:02:25 <elliott> http://meta.superuser.com/questions/3663/dark-hacking-my-account-name-got-changed-from-randolf-richardson-to-complica ;; and the main owner doesn't understand how OpenID works :P
16:02:37 <Gregor> Ohyeah,all the same number.
16:04:45 -!- Ngevd has joined.
16:05:16 <Gregor> elliott: Wow, he severely doesn't understand OpenID X_X.
16:05:22 <Ngevd> I'm thinking of calling my next esolang Salvador, in the spirit of Piet
16:05:25 <Gregor> You guys should password-protect your OpenID.
16:06:29 -!- derdon has joined.
16:06:59 <Gregor> However, did they seriously trust the email reported by OpenID?
16:07:02 <Gregor> 'cuz that's a legit guffaw.
16:07:43 <Gregor> Pollock would be a good name for an esolang.
16:07:57 <Ngevd> It's a Piet-like language using the web-safe pallete
16:08:06 <Ngevd> With 215 functions
16:09:19 <elliott> There was some unspecified database mixup.
16:09:54 <elliott> Gregor: It would take some supremely bad thinking to design a login system based solely on OpenID from the ground up, and then key authentication based on the reported email rather than the OpenID itself :P
16:13:19 <Ngevd> I think some of these functions are getting silly
16:13:37 <Ngevd> I have inverse hyperbolic cosecant
16:14:02 <elliott> oerjan: guess who has a haskell question :D
16:15:18 <Ngevd> I'm also making a four-letter or less short name for each function
16:15:29 <Ngevd> That probably won't be in the final spec
16:18:27 <Ngevd> Its only integer factors are 1 and itself
16:19:31 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
16:19:52 <elliott> oerjan: :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDdddddddddddddddddddddddddd ok so
16:20:02 <elliott> say I want a function f, which can be specialised to all these types:
16:20:15 <elliott> f :: (forall a. F a b) -> b
16:20:20 <oerjan> Ngevd: -1 is a unit, like 1, and units are not primes.
16:20:28 <elliott> f :: (forall a b. F (a,b) c) -> c
16:20:35 <elliott> f :: (forall a b c. F (a,(b,c)) d) -> d
16:20:54 <elliott> (F x y), where x is either fully universally quantified, or a tuple of fully universally quantified variables
16:20:59 <elliott> how can I do this with a typeclass :( you can't do
16:21:04 <elliott> instance Foo (forall a. F a b)
16:22:15 <oerjan> no idea, i don't understand how universal quantification interacts with other things.
16:22:20 <fungot> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD ...
16:24:56 <Ngevd> I've only defined 71/125 commands and I've got a self-modifying language with complex numbers and trigonometry
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16:25:46 <oerjan> what about f :: (forall a b c. F ((a,b),c)) d) -> d
16:26:22 <elliott> er if you fix the parens yes
16:27:06 <oerjan> elliott: can you define data Forall t = Forall (forall x. t x) ? that might help.
16:27:08 <elliott> basically f :: (forall {xs}. F a b) -> b iff a is zoopy, where "x is zoopy" is defined as: x is either an element of xs, or x = (y,z) where y and z are zoopy
16:27:55 <oerjan> and then you should be able to do instance Foo (Forall (F a))
16:28:18 <elliott> hmm... class Foo t where f' :: t a -> a?
16:28:47 <oerjan> Forall (F a) has kind *
16:28:56 <elliott> what does Foo look like, then?
16:29:08 <oerjan> i dunno you wrote it above
16:29:41 <elliott> oerjan: er well it was just an example...
16:29:53 <elliott> hmm maybe with a type family...
16:30:01 <elliott> oerjan: wait, yours is the wrong way around
16:31:56 <elliott> instance Foo (Forall (Flip (->) r)) where
16:31:56 <elliott> type Out (Forall (Flip (->) r)) = r
16:31:56 <elliott> f' (Forall (Flip f)) = f ()
16:32:08 <elliott> now to figure out how to generalise this to allow the tuple inputs...
16:51:31 <kallisti> elliott: I was serious the whole time, pooplord.
16:53:57 <elliott> don't make fun of poor zoosmell's death
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16:58:16 <elliott> oerjan: help, i like arrows. help, i like arrowised frp. i am become shadow of former self.
16:58:43 <oerjan> data ForallTree where { FABLeaf :: (forall a. f a) -> ForallTree f; FABBranch :: ForallTree (ForallTree2 f) -> ForallTree f }; newtype ForallTree2 f a = ForallTree (Curry f a); newtype Curry f a b = Curry (f (a,b))
17:00:48 <oerjan> *newtype ForallTree2 f a = ForallTree2 (ForallTree (Curry f a));
17:18:49 <oerjan> i'm not sure that's right, though, the branching may be too dynamic rather than static
17:19:42 <elliott> i would be more concerned that there is no way to type f _itself_ because the constructors can't be composed with it due to rank-n-nses
17:21:30 <oerjan> erm i was imagining f :: ForallTree (Flip F r) -> r
17:23:46 <elliott> oerjan: yes, which isn't the type of f I wanted...
17:23:59 <elliott> so some additional mangling has to be done to get it in a form that will accept the relevant types
17:24:31 <elliott> I should note that I have rapidly convinced myself that class Unit a where unit :: a; instance Unit () where unit = (); instance (Unit a, Unit b) => Unit (a, b) where unit = (unit, unit); f :: (Unit a) => F a b -> b is equivalent :P
17:25:59 <oerjan> well if that's all the types you need to use
17:26:48 <elliott> oerjan: well there's no point using any other type, as F is necessarily agnostic to the values it's passed (modulo seq etc.)
17:29:36 <oerjan> i would assume that would depend on what F is. for F = (->) i can see that class is enough.
17:30:15 <oerjan> but another F might have a different method for constructing the resulting b
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17:33:12 <oerjan> say if you had something like newtype F a b = F ((a -> Int) -> b)
17:33:32 <oerjan> hm no that's too simple.
17:35:37 <oerjan> perhaps you really cannot make an F that requires more than just a way to construct a values.
17:37:54 <elliott> oerjan: type families are one obvious way to create a pathological F, anyway
17:38:25 <elliott> oerjan: but constructing a value of type (forall a. F a b) becomes difficult.
17:38:28 <elliott> one might even say impossible.
17:53:14 <elliott> oerjan: How many swats are reserved for making fun of Norwegians?
17:55:21 <oerjan> elliott: in that case, expect a swat team.
17:56:04 <coppro> elliott: Congratulations! Was it your first time?
17:56:07 <oerjan> it was only a matter of time.
17:56:37 * elliott mumbles something about oklopol and 50 pounds.
17:57:09 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/nm7vz/what_is_lambda_calculus/c3a9gp8
17:59:15 <elliott> http://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/nm7vz/what_is_lambda_calculus/c3aaa3c
17:59:21 <elliott> The least forced thing ever.
18:00:00 * oerjan does some forced eye movements at that.
18:00:27 <elliott> "I am curious if there is a handy name for a relationship that is neither Injective nor Surjective? I understand such a messy thing is a terrible function."
18:03:48 <elliott> Do physicists ever stop abusing math? (self.math)
18:03:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I hate you for making me read /r/math.
18:04:26 <elliott> "Note: Sorry for the text wall, this kinda became a rant." It's... two medium-size paragraphs.
18:06:45 <olsner> functional programming (the kind they use for artificial intelligence) :D
18:07:20 <elliott> "I don't claim to understand the terms or even what I'm about to type out, but this is the "complete lagrangian of the standard model of physics" (which I assume governs kinematics, EM, whatever):
18:07:21 <elliott> http://nuclear.ucdavis.edu/~tgutierr/files/sml.pdf
18:07:21 <elliott> Can you use this to formulate consciousness? Physics runs into problems with a system of bodies n > 2."
18:07:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: physics runs into problems with a system of bodies n > 2
18:08:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: he deleted his comment
18:08:36 <kallisti> cemetary: an unsolved system of bodies in physics.
18:09:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I want it on a t-shirt.
18:09:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "Wrong wrong wrong", to a first approximation.
18:16:13 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
18:17:20 <HackEgo> ma hilidprotelf alcestifough fwyntornellukoa istramelbilly hen vily dendent achmermegalderood ers icruchyplau mshabom mars bisloya syarkabysconcon winffeibeclatinathudos reshb renfromentekaka apallumpsnm ingerne edefle venmel lonityolcurs zooty vcllley
18:17:37 <HackEgo> waphintiapuppro erperissimpaiy moolluianeuified balastempticonieran bed sphing utsedge vessuntinerretia khong lant ig heepto bro gras woryle nazzawadatse asia ardech gle storigida gescumbougb hagolea burtoppivols edo vulphalt
18:17:52 <elliott> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Da_Vinci_Code_For_Free
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18:33:07 <elliott> 45 over 5.5. I am way more dedicated to this than kallisti and Ngevd.
18:34:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Fun fact: if you change the numbers in the first sentence, you get most of the things elliott has said to me this week.
18:36:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Excuse me, I've also said that Scotland doesn't exist?
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19:16:43 <coppro> elliott: Scotland was obliterated by a burst of zepto?
19:17:36 <elliott> Funeral services will be held last Sunday, travel by zepto.
19:17:56 <coppro> I can't make it, I parked my TARDIS next Tuesday.
19:19:17 <elliott> coppro: Just bring it back with a touch of the old Feather.
19:19:50 <coppro> elliott: That would cause a temporal line
19:21:09 -!- tswett_ has joined.
19:21:35 <tswett_> Suomi koira limsa karkat vantas pohjoinen.
19:21:53 <elliott> coppro: Topologically equivalent to a 4-dimensional timecube, though.
19:22:40 <coppro> elliott: No, not a timecube!
19:24:30 <tswett_> Oh, don't worry. Math is timeless, so even the unstable stays the same.
19:24:45 <coppro> tswett_: That's the danger of a timecube.
19:25:04 <coppro> With relation to time, yes
19:35:30 -!- zzo38 has joined.
19:36:00 <zzo38> Is this good so far?
19:36:01 <lambdabot> zzo38: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
19:36:10 <zzo38> O, I read this messages already.
19:40:09 <zzo38> Sorry, I don't know.
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19:47:11 <zzo38> How much money does my Dungeons&Dragons character have? (no looking please)
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19:48:19 <zzo38> Ngevd: What character encoding are you using?
19:48:39 <Ngevd> I'm not entirely sure
19:48:42 <zzo38> No I mean in copper coin, silver coin, gold coin, platinum coin. Not in pence
19:48:57 <Ngevd> The first symbol was a pound symbol, btw
19:49:09 <zzo38> Yes I guessed it might have been a pound symbol
19:51:02 -!- Klisz has joined.
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19:53:54 <zzo38> "but an operator decided to /kill NickServ and use the nickname NickServ himself, subsequently collecting all identify passwords" Will that work only if you send a message to NickServ, or will it also work when using NS and PASS commands?
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19:54:35 <Ngevd> I think it would work using NS and PASS commands
19:54:44 <Ngevd> It all goes through NickServ
19:54:48 <Ngevd> Where did this happen
19:55:07 <zzo38> I don't know. Someone mentioned that in this channel
19:55:47 <zzo38> However it should be proper to make NS and PASS ensure it is sending to actual services only, I would think
19:56:21 <Ngevd> How would it do that?
19:56:51 <Ngevd> NS is, I think, done by the client?
19:57:03 <zzo38> No, NS and PASS are both server commands.
19:57:59 <zzo38> (My client doesn't know what NS is and yet it still works, so it must be a server command)
19:58:32 <Ngevd> What's the easiest way to tell if a user is identified?
19:58:41 <elliott> yikes... this guy on SO has 52 questions and 4 answers
19:58:44 <Ngevd> Gonna test something
19:58:58 <Ngevd> No I'm not, nevermind
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20:19:01 <kallisti> elliott: psh I can't believe only one person has upvoted my 4 paragraph textwall since yesterday.
20:19:17 <kallisti> LOOK AT ALL THOSE WORDS. IT'S GOT TO BE A GOOD ANSWER.
20:25:00 <zzo38> I do have the disassembled codes for TrivialOW.13 virus
20:33:45 <elliott> if only this improved semantic model was as convenient to work with as it is to show it's immune to several errors found in previous models
20:34:53 <fizzie> 'NICKSERV' is, I think, the server command, officially; but maybe 'NS' is an alias?
20:35:16 <fizzie> I do think at least current freenode server doesn't ever let a client connection change nick to "NickServ" anyway, even if services are offline.
20:35:39 <kallisti> fizzie: I wasn't aware services had a comman.
20:36:26 <fizzie> The "/msg NickServ" always makes me feel vaguely uncomfortable, so I tend to "/quote NICKSERV" instead. (The "/foo to /quote FOO" automagic also makes me feel vaguely uncomfortable.)
20:37:07 <elliott> fizzie: You should use zzo38's IRC client. No /quote required.
20:37:46 <kallisti> fizzie: you're just an uncomfortable guy aren't you?
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20:38:43 <ais523> congratulations on having a better sleep schedule than mine
20:39:09 <ais523> well, I woke up at about 7pm
20:41:25 <zzo38> The other thing in my IRC client, is if you use PASS then it will mask the password
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20:44:53 <ais523> elliott: have the wiki styles gone wrong for you? they have for me
20:45:01 <ais523> to be precise, the sidebar starts below the bottom of the content area, on every page
20:45:45 <elliott> try resizing browser / flushing cache / etc ?
20:46:06 <ais523> I've tried flushing cache
20:46:09 <ais523> I'll resize the browser next
20:46:50 <ais523> Wikipedia looks fine, although it's not surprising that it'd have been updated
20:47:03 <ais523> ah, but BlogNomic wiki doesn't
20:47:17 <ais523> so it's something about how Firefox 9 is interpreting old versions of Monobook
20:47:58 <elliott> ais523: probably "firefox 9 with my settings"
20:48:21 <coppro> ais523: I solved my lucky egg problem the bruteforce way
20:48:25 <ais523> but the fact that it works on Wikipedia implies that Wikipedia's monobook has been changed to work around the problem
20:51:28 <ais523> bleh, anyone know a good tool for diffing CSS rules?
20:51:41 <ais523> elliott: they're in a different order in the two files
20:51:59 <ais523> hmm… what if I remove all newlines between { and }, then sort, then diff?
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20:55:52 <ais523> bleh, no good, diff is still not matching them up correctly
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21:03:23 <Ngevd> Man, I do not want to be someone who has to write a Pollock interpreter
21:09:07 <ais523> the relevant styles seem to be the same here and on Wikipedia
21:09:21 <ais523> (that's computed styles via Firebug, so even if it's adjusted with JS the difference should show up)
21:09:35 <ais523> the only difference is that there's a position:relative on Esolang but not Wikipedia; but removing it makes no difference
21:09:54 <elliott> ais523: you might need to do more than remove it
21:10:05 -!- monqy has joined.
21:10:08 <elliott> at least, I wouldn't bet on CSS layout code results being always-consistent like that
21:10:25 <elliott> try making a local copy of the page by Ctrl+Sing and finding the CSS file and removing that rule
21:10:25 <ais523> just as a sanity check, it renders fine on Epiphany
21:10:39 <ais523> elliott: it'd have to be a with-all-dependencies local copy
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21:12:03 <elliott> ais523: good thing firefox saves those by default
21:12:06 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
21:12:13 <elliott> and has since, umm, before 1.0
21:12:25 <elliott> probably /netscape/ saved pages like that by default
21:12:32 <ais523> even then, Wikipedia's style loading is crazy
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21:14:30 <ais523> OK, interesting: if I remove the width: on Wikipedia, it expands to fill the width as you'd expect, if I remove it on Esolang, the sidebar disappears completely
21:15:59 <Ngevd> What's music I like?
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21:17:51 <ais523> elliott: aha, found the offender: it's KHTMLFixes.css
21:18:02 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:18:05 <elliott> ais523: firefox "khtml edition"
21:18:12 <ais523> presumable cause of the problem is that Firefox is in fact not using KHTML, and that Esolang is misdetecting it
21:18:16 <Ngevd> elliott, I can't think of any music I like
21:18:25 <Ngevd> elliott, but I want to play AudioSurf
21:20:11 <Ngevd> Screw this, I've got a Stranglers CD
21:20:30 <elliott> Ngevd: the best music is /dev/urandom
21:21:48 <kallisti> my entire filesystem is a symphony.
21:24:19 <elliott> I need 5 reputation in 2.5 hours. :/
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21:25:56 <Gregor> mplayer -demuxer rawvideo -rawvideo w=640:h=480:fps=30:format=rgb24 /dev/sda
21:26:16 <elliott> Gregor: ...why did I never think of doing that
21:26:54 <elliott> Targets (44): recode-3.6-6 enca-1.13-2 a52dec-0.7.4-5 libvpx-0.9.7.p1-1 libftdi-0.19-1 libirman-0.4.5-2 lirc-utils-1:0.9.0-8 x264-20111030-1 libmng-1.0.10-4
21:26:54 <elliott> libdca-0.0.5-3 aalib-1.4rc5-8 lame-3.99.3-1 libvdpau-0.4.1-2 libasyncns-0.8-3 libogg-1.3.0-1 flac-1.2.1-3 libvorbis-1.3.2-1 libsndfile-1.0.25-1
21:26:54 <elliott> json-c-0.9-1 libpulse-1.1-1 talloc-2.0.7-1 cifs-utils-4.9-3 tdb-1.2.9-1 smbclient-3.6.1-1 xvidcore-1.3.2-1 opencore-amr-0.1.2-1
21:26:54 <elliott> libsamplerate-0.1.8-1 jack-0.121.3-4 cdparanoia-10.2-3 libmad-0.15.1b-5 libtheora-1.1.1-2 libcaca-0.99.beta17-1 xf86dgaproto-2.1-2
21:26:57 <elliott> libxxf86dga-1.1.2-1 fribidi-0.19.2-2 libmp4v2-1.9.1-2 faac-1.28-3 faad2-2.7-2 orc-0.4.14-1 schroedinger-1.0.10-1 mpg123-1.13.4-1 libass-0.10.0-2
21:27:00 <elliott> libbluray-0.2.1-1 mplayer-34426-1
21:27:02 <elliott> What a dependency list >_<
21:27:10 <elliott> Now I wonder wtf mplayer is doing with JSON...
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21:28:21 <ais523> elliott: JSON in a media player seems reasonable, as JSON in anything that might want to store metadata seems reasonable
21:28:54 <Sgeo_> The person guiding me through Doctor Who says that Series 2-4 is mostly bad. I don't want to believe him.
21:29:10 <elliott> Sgeo_: Fuck him, Hartnell is tha bomb.
21:29:19 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:29:59 <ais523> CSS badly needs a useragent selector
21:30:27 <ais523> so the problem is, I can fix this for Firefox, but I can't think of a way to do so without simultaneously breaking it for KHTML
21:30:41 <elliott> I'm pretty sure even Konqueror uses WebKit these days
21:30:48 <ais523> but if it happens to break WebKit too…
21:31:03 <ais523> meh, I'll just do the Firefox-specific fix then test in Chromium
21:31:14 -!- tswett_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
21:31:17 * elliott would just rip out the hack
21:31:19 <elliott> maybe that's what you meant
21:31:24 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
21:31:29 <Sgeo_> elliott, in the ... whatchamacalling. After 2005
21:31:48 <elliott> Sgeo_: I know. Anyway, isn't that the entire Tennant years?
21:31:49 <pikhq_> elliott: Doesn't Konqueror still use KHTML?
21:31:59 <Sgeo_> elliott, I think so
21:31:59 <Ngevd> Here we go, I've found my Muse
21:32:17 <elliott> Sgeo_: The Tennant years were the absolute highpoint of the series, once they hit their stride; far superior to Eccleston, as entertaining as he was.
21:32:33 <elliott> Sgeo_: Then Moffat takes over and Matt Smith comes in and it all goes to hell.
21:32:53 <Sgeo_> elliott, this person really likes Moffat
21:33:00 <elliott> Sgeo_: The Tennant-Moffat episodes are the best, but Moffat is a terrible showrunner.
21:33:25 <elliott> He thinks ~unexplained mystery~ after unexplained mystery is an acceptable substitute for engaging plot.
21:33:45 <elliott> (I gave up on Moffat very quickly, so this is mostly second-hand knowledge, but it's backed up by more than one source.)
21:33:52 <pikhq_> Sgeo_: Moffat did some really solid episodes in the Tennant era.
21:34:08 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
21:34:14 <pikhq_> Problem is, if his episodes make up the entire series it's just bleh.
21:34:17 <elliott> s/some raelly solid/the best/
21:34:43 <elliott> Blink and Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead are pretty much the series' highpoints.
21:35:34 <pikhq_> It's like taking a good pastry chef and having him do cake for every course of a meal. You may like cake but you'll fucking hate the chef pretty soon.
21:35:53 <elliott> Sgeo_: But yeah, series 2 is spotty, but series 3 and 4 are amazing.
21:36:43 <Ngevd> Plug in Baby is AMAZING in AudioSurf
21:36:54 <elliott> Human Nature/The Family of Blood, Blink, Utopia/The Sound of Drums/Last of the Time Lords (well, I liked it, anyway), ... blah blah blah, they're all good.
21:37:08 <ais523> so, this is ridiculous: if margin specifies four margins, the left of which is 0, it works; if margin-left is specified as 0, it doesn't work
21:37:19 <ais523> so apparently the left margin and the margin-left do different things
21:37:25 <ais523> and the page layout depends on which is specified more recently
21:38:07 <Sgeo_> Well, you and he agree that Blink is good, at least.
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21:38:22 <Sgeo_> I'm sure there's a Doctor Who fan somewhere who dislikes Blink.
21:38:48 <ais523> OK, looks fine in Chromium, so I guess it does affect KHTML specifically
21:38:49 <Ngevd> Is Blink the one with the Angels?
21:39:32 <Ngevd> While it does have some good quotes, the way the Angels worked ruined my suspension of disbelief
21:39:52 <elliott> and Doctor Who /doesn't/ normally?
21:39:57 <Ngevd> And The Empty Child was much better
21:40:00 <elliott> it's Suspension of Disbelief: The Show
21:40:15 <pikhq_> Doctor Who's premise is "Suspend your disbelief, we're going for a ride!"
21:40:37 <pikhq_> We are literally dealing with a hand-wave mechanic'd time travel show.
21:40:43 <elliott> Anyway, they're quantum or something. I think the Doctor explained it all with about 3 seconds of nonsense.
21:40:58 <Sgeo_> pikhq_, I do find that somewhat hard when space and time collapses in a nonsensical way
21:41:15 <Sgeo_> (e.g. Pandora's Box/Big Bang or Season 6 finale)
21:41:32 <elliott> you watched the smith series before the tennant ones? srsly?
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21:42:08 <Sgeo_> I did see Blink as my first Doctor Who episode, if that helps
21:42:16 <Sgeo_> Then a few others from the Smith series
21:42:21 <Sgeo_> erm, not Smith, Tennant
21:43:06 <elliott> (6/6) checking package integrity [############################################################] 100%
21:43:06 <elliott> (6/6) checking for file conflicts [############################################################] 100%
21:43:06 <elliott> error: failed to commit transaction (conflicting files)
21:43:06 <elliott> filesystem: /etc/mtab exists in filesystem
21:43:07 <elliott> Errors occurred, no packages were upgraded.
21:43:09 <Sgeo_> Empty Child/Doctor Dances (yes, I know not Tennant), SitL/FotD
21:43:16 <Sgeo_> And then after that, just Smith, I think
21:43:34 <ais523> hmm, what the web needs: some way to specify the md5 of a script/image/whatever that's included by reference
21:43:47 <ais523> so that if it's already in cache, even from another site, then the cached version can just be used
21:44:06 <ais523> I'm not surprised it exists
21:44:11 <ais523> do browsers care about it?
21:44:20 <Ngevd> Phantom_Hoover, yes
21:44:23 <elliott> ais523: ETag is a header-based solution and everything uses it nowadays
21:44:33 <elliott> ais523: but it seems like what's /in/ the ETag is defined by the server
21:44:50 <ais523> elliott: oh, that's pointless if it doesn't work cross-server
21:44:53 <Ngevd> Phantom_Hoover, I prefer him to David Tennant, but preferred Christopher Eccleston to the both
21:45:15 <ais523> I mean, you'd do something like <script src="http://example.com/jquery.css" md5="whatever the md5 of jquery is" /> on example.com
21:45:18 <Ngevd> Phantom_Hoover, very well
21:45:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "DOCTORE WHO?", Being the Frivolous and Gay Adventures of a Medical Professional With a Magical Secret Throughout Time and Land
21:45:28 <ais523> and if you already had a copy of jQuery from another site, you wouldn't have to download it from example.com too
21:45:36 <ais523> yet you aren't doing any hotlinking
21:45:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's Matteuisen Smitteny.
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21:51:34 <elliott> Gregor: :/ it's just black
21:51:46 <elliott> Wait no, mplayer is just broken :P
21:52:43 <elliott> Gregor: Oh my god this is amazing
21:52:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: mplayer -demuxer rawvideo -rawvideo w=640:h=480:fps=30:format=rgb24 /dev/sda
21:55:03 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: try /dev/hda instead, then
21:55:13 <ais523> elliott: I take it that needs a sudo?
21:55:13 <elliott> ais523: not unless it's 2005 or something
21:55:25 <elliott> Gregor: I swear to god I can see actual images in this... like, images from my hard disk.
21:55:47 <ais523> elliott: that's not surprising, as long as the images are rgb24 and uncompressed
21:55:59 <ais523> and 640 wide (the height wouldn't matter)
21:56:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Forgive me if I'm a little leery of putting 'sudo' before anything someone told me to type on IRC with 'sda' in it.
21:56:09 <ais523> that's not a completely implausible combination
21:56:23 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: you probably should be
21:56:33 <ais523> I mean, that command only reads the disk, but reading a raw partition while it's mounted is a dubious operation
21:58:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Gregor is the one who said it :P
21:59:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to Gergor.
21:59:59 <elliott> ais523: I keep wanting to put this on YouTube but then I think "what if you can read my private key from it..."
21:59:59 <Gergor> Hey elliott, shred /dev/sda is also cool.
22:00:09 -!- Ngevd has quit (Quit: goodnight).
22:10:20 -!- elliott has set topic: akljsdklgdjhndrthiojeriogj.
22:10:25 -!- elliott has set topic: akljsdklgdjhndrthiojeriogj http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
22:10:39 <elliott> ais523: oh no, i just realised what's happening to my sleep schedule
22:10:54 <ais523> revolving, like mine does?
22:12:24 <itidus21> elliott: what you need is a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix_of_Leadership
22:13:44 <Gregor> elliott: It's pretty great, no?
22:13:52 -!- hagb4rd2 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:23:57 <elliott> ais523: nope: instead of advancing forwards each night, I'm getting tired /earlier/
22:24:22 <ais523> so still revolving, but the other way
22:24:30 <ais523> the days are too short for there to be meaningful light clues
22:25:27 <elliott> getting tired earlier is easily controllable, though; I just have to make sure I don't go to sleep significantly earlier
22:25:33 <elliott> and staying up for another hour or so is easy
22:28:05 <itidus21> The main body of the topic "akljsdklgdjhndrthiojeriogj" contains 26 characters, from an alphabet of 14 characters "akljsdkhnrtioe". The number of instances of each character in the alphabet is "12241322121121".
22:29:50 <elliott> ais523: is it "coming out of a lull" or "coming out of a slump"?
22:33:21 <itidus21> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Hexham
22:33:53 <elliott> there are at least /two/ Hexham Wikipedians?
22:34:35 <itidus21> two hexham wikipedians who care enough to say so
22:34:47 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Clawandfang
22:36:11 <itidus21> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/JenR32
22:40:00 * elliott suspects Clawandfang is not the same person
22:40:09 <elliott> maybe JenR32 is a relative or whatever
22:40:23 <elliott> clawandfang seems to have edited similar articles but without vandalising
23:01:18 -!- tuubow has joined.
23:02:00 <ais523> elliott: it's not unheard of for people to have a separate main account and vandalism account
23:02:25 <itidus21> i suspect the woman is a bit mad
23:06:25 <itidus21> im suspecting some kind of psychopath
23:09:46 <HackEgo> tuubow: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
23:13:58 <elliott> itidus21: Small-time Wikipedia vandalism --> crazy psychopath.
23:17:40 <itidus21> on second thought you're right
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23:20:46 <pikhq_> Well, that's fun. Executions are now effectively impossible in most of the US.
23:23:03 <olsner> they'll soon be back in some anti-terrorism/national security law
23:24:21 <pikhq_> Actually, the reason for that is because the necessary agents in lethal injection are now barred from being exported from the EU, and they're only manufactured there.
23:24:30 <pikhq_> And most states don't allow other means of execution.
23:24:48 <pikhq_> Well, from the EU to any country that does executions.
23:27:16 <olsner> there's something bizarre about guarding drugs usable for executions (of people "proven" to be criminals, or at least susipicious enough to get framed) closer than we guard exported weapons
23:27:31 <pikhq_> For the same reason, general anesthesia is soon to be impossible in the US; let's let the shitstorm begin.
23:29:03 <olsner> hmm, I'll be logging out for christmas now
23:29:07 -!- olsner has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:29:32 <elliott> pikhq_: would be a good time to outlaw capital punishment :p
23:29:54 <elliott> but i doubt there will be any shitstorm, it's not like the US will just sit around and wait until they run out of anaesthetic glue (it's made out of glue right? what isn't these days)
23:29:56 -!- NihilistDandy has quit (Quit: http://haskell.org).
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23:31:31 <itidus21> someone will eventually say "yay i won't get killed today because of some export ban"
23:31:34 <pikhq_> elliott: You need to get 37 jurisdictions to cooperate on that.
23:32:26 <pikhq_> At least one of them would have a hard time passing a bill stating "Be it forever known, America is fucking awesome."
23:32:54 <itidus21> pikhq_: all senators have guitars under their chairs
23:33:12 <itidus21> which can be drawn and played when necessary
23:37:05 <Gergor> <pikhq_> Actually, the reason for that is because the necessary agents in lethal injection are now barred from being exported from the EU, and they're only manufactured there.
23:37:18 <Gergor> Surely someone can just, you know, start a chemical plant in the US?
23:37:29 <pikhq_> Gergor: There used to be one.
23:37:41 <itidus21> Gergor: careful, someone might hear you.
23:37:53 <pikhq_> The US doesn't do things like "manufacturing" anymore.
23:38:39 <pikhq_> Also, starting a chemical plant in the US would take more time than running out of something needed for general anesthesia would.
23:39:05 <Gergor> I mean, given that one of the compounds is potassium chloride and one of them is a core medicine according the the WHO, I assume the one under an export ban is pancuronium bromide.
23:39:22 <Gergor> Wait, no, it's thiopental?
23:39:36 <pikhq_> Actually, anything used in executions is under the export ban.
23:39:42 <pikhq_> Including sodium thiopental.
23:39:53 <Gergor> Gahaha this is too funny.
23:39:57 <ais523> I can't figure out if this is a sign of the US's stupidity, or the EU's stupidity
23:40:14 <ais523> come to think of it, it doesn't hurt the EU much, so it's giving them a bunch of political leverage at basically no cost
23:40:14 <pikhq_> Which, of course, is a core medicine according to the WHO, and needed for anesthesia.
23:40:24 <Gergor> Hmm, does this mean that I can't take the sylvites in my rock collection to America?
23:40:36 <pikhq_> ais523: Actually, doesn't hurt the EU at all.
23:40:54 <ais523> pikhq_: well, it deprives them of a market for their chemicals exports
23:41:05 <pikhq_> Okay, so it hurts them a little.
23:41:11 <pikhq_> And really fucks up the US.
23:41:51 <ais523> doing that sort of thing, you typically need to justify politically, but the executions thing works fine for that
23:41:52 <Gergor> This is very very funny.
23:42:19 <ais523> I like the way that the EU tends to tune import duties to hurt products from swing states, whenever they get into a trade war with the US
23:42:26 <ais523> because they know that applying pressure elsewhere is pointless
23:42:52 <Gergor> Waitwaitwait, potassium chloride is used in some low-sodium salt.
23:43:08 <ais523> IIRC Burger King even served it in the UK for a while, but nobody liked eating it
23:43:10 <Gergor> That is now illegal for export from the EU to the US.
23:44:27 <Gergor> I'm still going to have to go for "rock collections must now be vetted" as the stupidest consequence.
23:46:41 <elliott> Gergor: I kept reading you as Gregor...
23:46:44 <elliott> Also you have a rock collection?
23:47:37 * elliott would approve if this would actually gain any leverage in ending capital punishment in the US which it... won't.
23:48:16 <Gergor> I don't, but if I *did*...
23:50:06 <elliott> Gergor: I would say you should start a rock collection of only things you can't cross borders with but that probably exists already.
23:50:42 <pikhq_> elliott: Actually, it probably will.
23:51:23 <elliott> Gergor: I really like "pitchblende" because it looks like someone just appended an "e" to it to make it sound classier.
23:51:51 <Gergor> I think it's because German miners called heavy rocks 'blende' for some reason.
23:52:03 <pikhq_> Many states have ended up with legal injection being the only method that's not "cruel and unusual".
23:52:15 <elliott> pikhq_: You're saying your govt will stop executing people long-term because the EU is temporarily being silly about exports?
23:52:29 <elliott> They just mash up the constitution and inject it into your brain.
23:53:12 <Gergor> elliott, it will make it a fair bit more difficult to do it in the near future, though.
23:53:20 <pikhq_> elliott: Probably not "temporarily", and also I honestly don't see them getting a sodium thiopental plant up and running before we stop being able to perform surgery.
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23:53:50 <elliott> Gergor: Well yeah, but it's not like death row is the speediest process any time of the year.
23:54:07 -!- zzo38 has set topic: akljsdklgdjhndrthiojeriogj | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
23:54:23 <elliott> pikhq_: Dude, there is no possible way on earth the US won't manage to get more imported before "NO MORE ANAESTHESIA".
23:54:36 <Gergor> pikhq_, you know that there are general anaesthetics which aren't thiopental, right?
23:54:59 <Gergor> WP lists three more right next to it.
23:55:16 <Gergor> In fact: "Chemically, propofol is unrelated to barbiturates and has largely replaced sodium thiopental (Pentothal) for induction of anesthesia"
23:55:25 <elliott> pikhq_: I'm pretty sure the EU would find "People will start dying en masse if you don't give us what we need to operate on people ASAP; love, one of the world's most powerful countries" quite compelling.
23:55:32 <zzo38> Some of the things in the D&D game I was playing, involving the death row; and the guards half sleep did not wake up because they already played cards
23:57:05 <pikhq_> Gergor: Well, that works just so long as propofol doesn't start being used in lethal injection.
23:57:15 <pikhq_> I strongly suspect we don't manufacture that either.