00:02:16 <zzo38> Well, I wanted to generalize it so that you can use arr between any two categories by having a two-parameters class, instead of only from (->) to something else
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00:23:25 <zzo38> I think the brainfuck + and - are Kleisli morphisms while < and > are coKleisli morphisms. (on the (Sum Integer -> Word8) type)
00:23:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You sure are bouncing a lot today.
00:23:40 <Phantom_Hoover> WiFi is acting up.
00:23:53 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/UBga
00:24:21 <elliott> "Probably apocryphal, but many years back I read that Lotus had shipped 40,000 units of Lotus Notes for the Mac and 60,000 were returned. The interface was so bad that even the people who had pirated it sent it back."
00:25:29 <zzo38> What is the use of sending it back if you pirated it? Simply delete it in that case. But write a review of it being bad, either way.
00:25:50 <Phantom_Hoover> You can cause some of the pain the makers of Lotus Notes caused you back upon them.
00:26:38 <zzo38> I agree if you purchased it you should send it back and request a refund. But I doubt that can work if you pirated it.
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00:32:00 <zzo38> Is these Kleisli and coKleisli morphisms correct?
00:32:08 <ais523> if it /did/ work, no wonder all the pirates sent it back
00:37:34 <elliott> ais523: if what did work
00:37:47 <ais523> getting money back for sending back something you'd pirated
00:37:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Lotus.
00:37:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh.
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02:33:23 <elliott>  /topic
02:41:08 <Sgeo> It's an elliott!
02:43:08 <monqy> hi
02:46:46 <Sgeo> It's a monqy!
02:48:54 <monqy> hi
02:50:39 <Sgeo> It's a hi!
02:52:08 <monqy> hi
03:13:11 <elliott> hi
03:23:50 <zzo38> It's...
03:52:14 <elliott> hi
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04:02:36 <elliott> "What the fuck good is the STANDARD if you have to pay for it?
04:02:36 <elliott> I mean, it doesn't really do much good if WG14 is actually CHARGING us for use of C11."
04:03:04 <elliott> oh my god they're actually surprised by this
04:14:50 <elliott> monqy have you ever been so tired you just fell asleep
04:30:28 <kallisti> elliott: hi I went to bed at 2 pm and now it's 11:30 pm what do?
04:31:57 <elliott> i dont know im going to bed
04:32:04 <elliott> cya nerds -----------------------------------,>
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04:39:33 <monqy> future elliott: yes i have been so tired i involuntarily slipped unconscious (this has happened multiple times)
04:51:41 <kallisti> monqy: what would be the best way to explain to someone that bottom is not important for isomorphisms?
04:52:18 <monqy> uhh
04:52:35 <monqy> define isomorphism in such a way that bottom is not important B)
04:52:35 <kallisti> for example, someone asked on #haskell if there was a 1-tuple in Haskell. I said no because a 1-tuple of a would be isomorphic to a. Someone else said that it's not isomorphic because there's no equivalent to (_|_)
04:54:12 <monqy> Identity (laughs)
04:54:27 <Sgeo> :t (undefined)
04:54:28 <lambdabot> forall a. a
04:54:31 <Sgeo> Bluh
04:54:34 <monqy> ??
04:54:50 <Sgeo> monqy, me stupidly thinking that those parens would result in a 1-tuple
04:57:02 <monqy> oh
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04:57:56 <kallisti> hmm I don't think any of the smart people are on #haskell right now to answer my question.
04:58:45 <kallisti> elliott completely ignored me when I mentioned that _|_ could be  relevant to isomorphisms, so maybe that's an indication.
04:58:59 <kallisti> 23:58 < rwbarton> kallisti: both taking _|_ into account and ignoring _|_ can  be useful to think about
04:59:02 <kallisti> yessss
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05:33:22 <kallisti> `log ZipList.*Monad
05:33:48 <HackEgo> 2011-12-17.txt:04:57:22: <oerjan> well because i have several times claimed that ZipList _can_ be a Monad
05:33:54 <kallisti> `log ZipList.*Monad
05:34:04 <HackEgo> 2011-11-30.txt:10:11:38: <oerjan> oh and on ZipLists "rectangular" elements obviously are what you intuitively call rectangles, it's just that it applies more generally to any attempt to extend Applicatives to Monads, i believe.
05:34:16 <kallisti> `log ZipList.*Monad
05:34:24 <HackEgo> 2011-12-29.txt:05:34:04: <HackEgo> 2011-11-30.txt:10:11:38: <oerjan> oh and on ZipLists "rectangular" elements obviously are what you intuitively call rectangles, it's just that it applies more generally to any attempt to extend Applicatives to Monads, i believe.
05:34:43 <kallisti> `log (?i)monad.*ziplist
05:34:49 <HackEgo> 2009-06-24.txt:19:28:12: <oerjan> augur: i'm talking about a theoretical Monad instance for ZipList, lambdabot doesn't have it
05:35:07 <kallisti> `log (?i)monad.*ziplist
05:35:13 <HackEgo> 2011-12-29.txt:05:34:49: <HackEgo> 2009-06-24.txt:19:28:12: <oerjan> augur: i'm talking about a theoretical Monad instance for ZipList, lambdabot doesn't have it
05:35:28 <kallisti> `log (?i)ziplist.*diagonal
05:35:33 <HackEgo> 2011-12-29.txt:05:35:28: <kallisti> `log (?i)ziplist.*diagonal
05:35:52 <kallisti> `log (?i)instance ZipList
05:35:58 <HackEgo> 2011-12-29.txt:05:35:52: <kallisti> `log (?i)instance ZipList
05:36:01 <kallisti> `pastelogs ZipList
05:36:08 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.5756
05:37:12 <kallisti> `pastelogs ziplist
05:37:15 <kallisti> surely there are more...
05:37:18 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.30067
05:38:13 <kallisti> `pastelogs oerjan> >
05:38:19 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.23026
05:38:40 <kallisti> hm pastelogs doesn't paste everything I see.
05:38:52 <kallisti> `pastelogs oerjan> >
05:38:57 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.31141
05:39:13 <kallisti> `pastelogs oerjan> >.*ZipList
05:39:23 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.13236
05:53:07 <kallisti> @tell oerjan You remember how you said your ZipList monad was obvious? Apparently in #haskell no one knows about it.
05:53:07 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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06:44:51 <zzo38> I made the file of the complete texts of Super ASCII MZX Town
06:45:04 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/misc/ascmzxto_texts.txt
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07:01:18 <zzo38> Can you somehow combine Kleisli categories and coKleisli categories together into one mathematical structure? I think one use of such thing can be a way to represent brainfuck codes too (Kleisli morphisms for value adjuments and coKleisli categories for pointer adjustments)
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07:51:14 <Ngevd> Hello!
07:55:21 <kallisti> hey
07:57:58 <Ngevd> I motion that we make more interesting esolangs
07:58:26 <monqy> me too
07:58:44 <zzo38> Ngevd: OK. Then please do so.
07:58:49 <zzo38> I do agree
07:58:49 <Ngevd> Hmm
07:59:04 <kallisti> I motion that we make any kind of esolang because setting our standards too high will likely result in inaction.
07:59:13 <Ngevd> Firstly, I will prove Luigi turing-complete
07:59:40 <kallisti> Ngevd: while you're at it prove dupdog is or isn't Turing complete. kth
07:59:40 <kallisti> x
07:59:47 <zzo38> kallisti: I agree with that too.
07:59:59 <Sgeo> dupdog?
08:00:02 <zzo38> There is list of ideas, you can try to read it if you want to.
08:00:03 <kallisti> yes
08:00:36 <zzo38> Another idea is, make some esolangs using rarely-used categories from category theory or something like that
08:01:17 <Sgeo> Esolangs are a monad. #esoteric is a monad. Monad is a monad. You are a monad.
08:01:25 <monqy> sgeo..............
08:01:26 <Sgeo> Monad obsession is a monad.
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08:01:43 <Ngevd> monqyad
08:01:44 <monqy> sgeo is bad: a monad????
08:01:45 <zzo38> Then use some comonad too
08:02:14 <kallisti> for example the dupdog category, where objects are character interpreters and composition of interpreters forms a new interpreter.
08:02:26 <kallisti> for example the dupdog language itself is mfit composed with shanty
08:02:45 <kallisti> (is totally not making shit up right now)
08:03:46 <zzo38> Or based on any other kinds of rarely-used mathematical structures; not necessarily category theory.
08:04:15 <kallisti> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhumb_line  base an esolang on these.
08:04:35 <monqy> rhumb
08:04:38 <Sgeo> We should make an esolang where all I/O is done in a monad.
08:04:47 <monqy> sgeo.............
08:04:52 <monqy> what is it with you and monads
08:04:53 <monqy> they're not
08:04:54 <monqy> that great
08:05:05 * Sgeo is being silly right now
08:05:16 <kallisti> monqy: what is it with you and not-monads.
08:05:30 <kallisti> they're not that not-not-great 
08:05:49 <monqy> not-monads are often boring too
08:05:59 <kallisti> therefore universe is boring.
08:06:06 <kallisti> oftentimes
08:06:09 <monqy> yes
08:06:37 <kallisti> monqy: make the most boring esoalanggr iffof all
08:07:44 <monqy> howwwwwwwww
08:07:49 <Sgeo> An esolang that just prints the source code
08:07:52 <Sgeo> It's always a quine
08:07:59 <Sgeo> Erm, all programs are quines
08:08:03 <zzo38> Sgeo: Already exists; and there is already an article for it, too.
08:08:05 <Ngevd> Been done
08:08:11 <monqy> languages that do nothing interesting are boring, but langauges that do too much are also boring
08:08:17 <kallisti> I think unix actually comes with such an interpreter
08:08:22 <kallisti> I think it's called echo.
08:08:30 <monqy> what if I did a lot of things, none of them interesting
08:08:42 <Ngevd> You want a language that can do a lot, but you don't know how
08:09:13 <monqy> i'll embed every overused language and all of their derivatives into it
08:10:00 <Sgeo> Embed BF and the derivative of BF where + is - and [ is ] and < is > and > is < etc
08:10:11 <kallisti> Objective-Jythby#++
08:11:20 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes there is such thing, ReverseFuck, and also ReverseReverseFuck.
08:11:50 <Sgeo> zzo38, but what about combining it in the same language as Brainfuck?
08:12:30 * Sgeo sees nothing about ReverseReverseFUcke
08:12:31 <Sgeo> Fuck
08:14:45 <kallisti> Visual Objective-Jythby#++
08:15:15 <zzo38> http://esolangs.org/wiki/RRF
08:15:33 <zzo38> There is also "Palindrome-Reverse-ReverseFuck".
08:15:48 <zzo38> In which ,]. is a valid program
08:18:38 <Ngevd> brb
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08:22:33 <Sgeo> Hmm
08:22:46 <Sgeo> Maybe it will help me get a better grasp of Haskell to implement a few esolangs
08:22:53 <Sgeo> That aren't already implemented
08:23:34 <zzo38> Invent esolang which is designed to be impossible to prove is Turing Complete even though it might still be Turing Complete.
08:23:58 <Sgeo> And/or redo my horrific crappy implementation of that one language I crappily implemented in Python
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08:27:37 <zzo38> Invent esolang which runs only backward in time and not forward
08:28:50 <kallisti> zzo38: that sounds feasible actually
08:29:24 <kallisti> though perhaps not in the way you imagine.
08:29:36 <kallisti> also it couldn't be turing complete because it would always halt.
08:29:57 <Sgeo> There's a ReverseState monad, although I guess that's different
08:29:59 * Sgeo ducks
08:30:30 <zzo38> Yes, that is different.
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08:40:20 <Ngevd> Back
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09:00:55 <oerjan> *cough*
09:00:55 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
09:02:41 <oerjan> <kallisti> `log (?i)instance ZipList
09:03:10 <oerjan> `log [i]nstance monad ziplist
09:03:46 <HackEgo> No output.
09:03:54 <oerjan> wat
09:04:48 <oerjan> `log zjoin.*zipwith.*diag
09:05:02 <HackEgo> 2011-12-17.txt:05:00:42: <copumpkin> @let zjoin = ZipList . diag . scanl1 (zipWith (flip const)) . map (getZipList) . getZipList where diag = concat . takeWhile (not . null) . map (take 1) . foldr (\x xs -> x:map (drop 1) xs) []
09:05:23 <oerjan> looks like the one
09:17:11 * Sgeo wants to try NixOS
09:18:10 <Sgeo> Although looking at the bootloader screenshot, there seems to be no way to name a configuration with a nice easy to understand name, that, say, specifies the difference between it and a previous configuration
09:18:11 <kallisti> oerjan: I found it later
09:18:46 <oerjan> ah
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09:21:24 <oerjan> kallisti: incidentally your ignoring _|_ discussion is relevant - i don't think that definition quite works when bottoms are involved (you might sometimes get a third law mismatch where there is a [] where there should be a _|_ or vice versa
09:21:28 <oerjan> )
09:23:04 <oerjan> iirc, which is possible i don't because i haven't thought this through completely (i thought it through enough to convince me that the Applicative laws hold precisely for ZipList even with _|_, when using the Prelude definition for zipWith.)
09:23:10 <oerjan> *myself
09:24:38 <oerjan> and also that the f <*> x = zjoin (fmap f x) correspondence holds exactly.
09:26:34 <oerjan> or that zjoin could be phrased such that they do, i'm not quite sure
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09:57:39 <oerjan> <kallisti> @tell oerjan You remember how you said your ZipList monad was obvious? Apparently in #haskell no one knows about it.
09:58:03 <oerjan> i said "obvious"?
09:58:48 <oerjan> anyway, yay 15 minutes of #haskell fame!
10:02:09 <kallisti> lol
10:02:21 <kallisti> yes your very prestigious now.
10:02:29 <kallisti> if you actually join #haskell people might even ask /questions/
10:02:35 <oerjan> eek
10:03:31 <kallisti> oerjan: the immediate reaction was "what no that doesn't work"
10:03:37 <kallisti> and then slowly it was like "oh maybe..."
10:03:43 <kallisti> then it was like "oh okay yeah this might work"
10:03:46 <oerjan> i read the logs :P
10:05:07 <oerjan> i noticed rwbarton deciphered my essential cube idea
10:05:51 <oerjan> well essential for understanding why it works.  it is possible the actual implementation came first by less stringent means.
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10:26:48 <Phantom_Hoover> ump
10:26:53 <Ngevd> Hello
10:26:55 <Phantom_Hoover> No lambdabot?
10:26:57 <Phantom_Hoover> :(
10:27:16 <oerjan> even worse
10:27:25 <oerjan> lambdabot AND NO MESSAGES
10:27:31 * oerjan cackles evilly
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10:40:17 <Sgeo> @tell Phantom_Hoover fix noMessages
10:40:17 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
10:40:30 <Phantom_Hoover> @clear-messages
10:40:30 <lambdabot> Messages cleared.
10:41:25 * oerjan notes that google instant is particularly annoying when you mistype
10:41:46 <oerjan> although this time google's autocorrection actually compensated for it.
10:42:55 <oerjan> (other times it's the autocorrection which is annoying, of course)
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10:59:47 <kallisti> one thing I've learned from freelancing
10:59:53 <kallisti> is that I'm a terrible negotiator.
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11:00:50 <Ngevd> Esolang idea!
11:01:32 <Ngevd> One or more falling object interacting with the environment!
11:02:44 <oerjan> esolangs ideas are really going downhill
11:03:11 <Ngevd> Ba-dum tish?
11:03:14 <oerjan> -s
11:03:21 <kallisti> oerjan: obviously you haven't heard of my reversible graph rewriting constraint thing.
11:03:24 <oerjan> Ngevd: always
11:03:29 <kallisti> oerjan: oh... I missed the joke.
11:03:47 <oerjan> oblivious graph rewriting
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11:16:05 <Ngevd> Alice in Wonderland is Flatland but coming from the other direction
11:16:10 <zzo38> Can this make a category and/or a monad?      newtype JoustT v f x = JoustT { runJoustT :: JoustT x f v -> f x };     (I call it Joust because of something someone mentioned that it reminded them of)
11:18:02 <zzo38> I do know the lift and fmap
11:21:23 <oerjan> zzo38: i tried a bit but couldn't make it
11:21:36 <kallisti> so.... Intel or AMD?
11:21:42 <kallisti> AMD is cheaper so I think I'll be getting one of those.
11:21:50 <oerjan> if it _is_ a category, i think the argument order should be f v x
11:21:58 * kallisti is shopping for a gaming desktop
11:22:04 <zzo38> oerjan: I also tried a bit but couldn't make it. And yes, I know if it is a category you have to change the argument order
11:23:15 <Ngevd> Alice in Wonderland is based on Victorian culture with allusions to Mathematics, Flatland is based on Mathematics with allusions to Victorian Culture
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11:29:01 <Ngevd> There is at least one Shakespeare play for every English monarch from possibly Edward III (definitely his successor Richard II) right to Richard III
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11:32:37 <oerjan> i recall someone saying something like in shakespeare's play all the monarchs are monsters, except for elizabeth's ancestors, who are saints.
11:32:43 <oerjan> *plays
11:32:56 <Ngevd> Depends on the play
11:33:21 <Ngevd> Some of them were saints in one play and villains in another
11:33:27 <oerjan> aha
11:33:35 <Sgeo> Is AWObject an acceptable name for a datatype?
11:34:14 <Ngevd> And I'm wrong, there isn't a play for Edward V or IV
11:34:24 <Ngevd> But Edward V's entire reign happens in Richard III?
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11:47:51 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes, it start with uppercase so it is acceptable.
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12:06:35 <zzo38> Do you know whether glk_gestalt is a pure function?
12:07:31 <kallisti> Vorpal: hi what is your video card?
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12:20:06 <Ngevd> Hmm
12:20:16 <Ngevd> I think I could do this sorta recursively
12:21:11 <Ngevd> Not really knowing how recursive types work 
12:24:00 <kallisti> a recursive type is just a type with a constructor that contains a field of that type.
12:24:14 <Ngevd> I knew that
12:24:30 <Ngevd> It's the esotericy weird things that only I would ever think of that I'm struggling with
12:24:42 <kallisti> ???
12:25:03 <Ngevd> Give me a minute and no wait I'm wrong
12:25:05 <Ngevd> Damn
12:25:20 <Ngevd> Or... am I?
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12:33:30 <zzo38> In Haskell, is a foreign exported function which is called in the C main function allowed to have a flexible constraint which requires the existence of an instance that does not exist at the time the program is compiled into object files, even though it will exist when another module imports that one and makes an executable file?
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12:43:45 <Ngevd> Yep, this definitely doesn't work
12:46:18 <Ngevd> I think I need some way of referencing thigs
12:46:42 <Ngevd> With an n before the g
12:51:47 <kallisti> Ngevd: what are you trying to do.
12:52:02 <Ngevd> Make a family tree program
12:52:19 <kallisti> okay. do you have a tree?
12:52:22 <Ngevd> No
12:52:23 <kallisti> this is a good start.
12:52:28 <kallisti> a tree is a good data structure for a tree.
12:52:33 <Ngevd> Not in this caser
12:52:38 <kallisti> go on
12:52:40 <Ngevd> Family trees are not trees
12:53:13 <Ngevd> For a start each element can have two parents and many children
12:53:24 <kallisti> okay so a graph
12:53:57 <Ngevd> I'm going to do this my own crazy way and so learn about Haskell some more
12:54:18 <Sgeo> See if you can avoid using mutation for cycles
12:54:26 <Sgeo> .../me derps
12:54:40 <kallisti> also note that it's still a tree, just not a tree where each node has one parent.
12:54:59 <kallisti> ...British incest aside.
12:55:56 <zzo38> I made up a Haskell program for category of walks
12:56:37 <kallisti> Ngevd: it's still a mathematical tree (acyclic connected graph)
12:57:18 <Sgeo> Challenge: Introduce time travel.
12:57:27 <kallisti> Ngevd: also if the problem you're having is how to efficiently move around the tree in arbitrary directions, you should look into zippers.
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12:58:48 <zzo38> What uses are there for a category of walks?
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13:02:28 <Phantom_Hoover> <kallisti> okay so a graph
13:02:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Not just a simple graph, though; there are two kinds of edge, one of which is directed.
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13:04:20 <kallisti> Phantom_Hoover: I think he just wants a tree structure where nodes have two parents, optional spouse, a list of children, and maybe a litle of siblings if that can't be exactly determined from other fields.
13:04:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, hence two types of edge, one directed.
13:05:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Spouse is directionless, parent is directed.
13:06:57 <kallisti> sure.
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13:15:58 <zzo38> Maybe the marriages should be ones having children instead of nodes?
13:16:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Nah.
13:16:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Spouse/parent allows you to express all plausible situations.
13:18:47 <zzo38> OK
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13:30:11 <Ngevd> Hello!
13:30:26 <Ngevd> While my internet was down, I came up with a better idea
13:34:12 <zzo38> OK
13:37:09 <zzo38> I made a implementation of category of walks that requires another type of kind (* -> * -> *) which can be another category although it does not have to be.
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13:48:44 <Sgeo> There's a new Category:Shameful language?
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13:49:37 * Sgeo apparently has a weird definition of new
13:50:13 <kallisti_> anyone know xpath?
13:51:43 <Sgeo> "### is an esoteric programming language by User:Dagoth Ur, Mad God based on ///. To run a ### program, type a #.
13:51:43 <Sgeo> "
13:51:49 <Vorpal> kallisti_, why do you want to learn about xpath?
13:51:49 <Sgeo> "###b#ott#les#of#b#eer o#n t#he #w#all#, ###lovely ###[[Esme]]ralda ###o#n ###t#h#e  #b#ee#r...
13:51:50 <Sgeo> "
13:51:56 <Sgeo> And that's it. No further explanation
13:51:57 <Vorpal> (not that I know much of it)
13:52:24 <Sgeo> "Joke language list"
13:52:41 <Sgeo> I don't get it
13:52:45 * Sgeo 's mind surrenders.
13:53:05 <Vorpal> Sgeo, that is just trolling
13:53:05 <Vorpal> IMO
13:53:31 <Vorpal> Sgeo, the language I mean, not you
13:53:37 <kallisti_> I'm wondering how I can select an element by its absolute position.
13:53:45 <kallisti_> so maybe.... //[index]?   this looks wrong to me.
13:54:05 <Vorpal> kallisti_, I wouldn't know. I try to keep away from xml as much as I can
13:55:29 <Vorpal> I mean, SGML and derivatives are okay for a text markup language. But it is way to verbose to be a generic data storage format.
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13:55:41 <kallisti_> where could I go to ask an xpath question?
13:55:54 <Vorpal> no clue
13:56:08 <Vorpal> kallisti_, but why are you messing with xpath?
13:56:11 <kallisti_> Vorpal: my personal preference for SGML and derivatives is absolutely irrelevant to the fact that I need to use it.
13:56:26 <Vorpal> I never understood the point of it. Isn't it like a query language for xml?
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13:56:31 <kallisti_> yes.
13:56:39 <kallisti_> Vorpal: and, because work.
13:57:44 <Vorpal> ah
13:57:51 <Vorpal> kallisti_, I feel terribly sorry for you
13:58:43 <kallisti_> eh.
13:58:49 <kallisti_> there are far worse jobs.
13:59:18 <Vorpal> well, sure
14:01:24 <kallisti_> I think I might want
14:01:29 <kallisti_>  //*[index]
14:04:06 <kallisti_> oh hmmm...
14:04:10 <kallisti_> no that won't work.
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14:06:30 <kallisti_> aha
14:06:39 <kallisti_> (//*)[index]  works
14:06:40 -!- Vorpal has joined.
14:06:44 <Vorpal> ...?
14:06:49 <Vorpal> what just happened
14:07:03 <Vorpal> hm looks like freenode had a problem
14:07:24 <Vorpal> -MemoServ- Memo 1 - Sent by zzo38, Dec 27 15:20:02 2011
14:07:25 <Vorpal> -MemoServ- ------------------------------------------
14:07:25 <Vorpal> -MemoServ- :Join this channel and say something really either obvious or controversial straight away
14:07:26 <Vorpal> what?
14:15:57 <kallisti_> Vorpal: actually I find xpath quite useful because it's much much easier to write a simple xpath query than it is to do the equivalent hand-rolled traversal/search .
14:18:09 <Vorpal> hm
14:18:10 <Vorpal> okay
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14:19:13 <kallisti_> ugh but this is a breadth-first order I don't know if I want that.
14:20:14 <Vorpal> kallisti_, depends on what you are doing. Breadth-first makes sense for some things
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14:21:45 <kallisti_> what the hell is "document order"
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14:27:04 <Vorpal> kallisti_, as listed in the xml file?
14:27:04 <Vorpal> same order I mean
14:27:04 <Vorpal> (that seems fairly reasonable)
14:27:56 <Vorpal> kallisti_, was that correct?
14:27:59 <kallisti_> not quite
14:28:03 <kallisti_> its' some fucked up vague ordering
14:28:11 <kallisti_> that could be either breadth-first or depth-first as far as I can tell
14:31:27 <Vorpal> heh
14:33:54 <Vorpal> kallisti_, SQL makes much more sense, and even it doesn't make sense in many places
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14:41:11 <kallisti_> wow you know what's awesome?
14:41:13 <kallisti_> currying.
14:41:26 <kallisti_> you know what Python doesn't support without cumbersome shenanigans?
14:41:29 <Vorpal> kallisti_, well yes
14:41:31 <kallisti_> currying.
14:41:48 <Vorpal> kallisti_, you can actually do currying in python at all? I'm surprised
14:42:07 <Ngevd> Yes, you can do currying
14:42:14 <Vorpal> how?
14:42:22 <Ngevd> lambda x: lambda y: f(x,y)
14:42:30 <Vorpal> hm okay
14:42:58 <kallisti_> there are other ways
14:43:06 <kallisti_> you can write function wrappers that do it somewhat automatically
14:43:08 <kallisti_> but it's tricky.
14:43:21 <kallisti_> there's also a partial function in functools that creates such curried functions for you.
14:43:33 <kallisti_> but nothing that's simple or easy or nice.
14:44:08 <kallisti_> of course Python has some conveniences that Haskell cannot expression quite as conveniently: varargs and keyword args for example
14:44:18 <Vorpal> obviosuly
14:44:25 <Vorpal> and python is afaik dynamically typed
14:44:41 <Vorpal> which has both advantages and disadvantages
14:44:53 <kallisti_> mhm
14:45:02 <kallisti_> WOW SO MANY PROS AND CONS
14:45:18 <kallisti_> it must be tough to be a close-minded douchebag
14:45:28 <Vorpal> I wonder if it would be possible to make an imperative language with the kind of type system that haskell has
14:45:32 <kallisti_> oh wait, people are good at that despite the difficulties.
14:45:55 <kallisti_> Vorpal: well certtainly generics and templates come pretty close
14:46:08 <kallisti_> also type inference is possible.
14:46:11 <Vorpal> hm
14:46:16 <kallisti_> are you referring to typeclasses?
14:46:23 <kallisti_> I'm not sure to what extent that is possible.
14:46:46 <Vorpal> typeclasses, advanced type inference, that sort of stuff yes
14:46:50 <Ngevd> You know what I'm awful at?
14:46:53 <Ngevd> Line breaks
14:46:55 <Vorpal> I mean you can do the simple var x = new Foo(); thing that C# has
14:47:10 <Vorpal> which comes nowhere near what haskell has
14:47:13 <kallisti_> Ngevd: what?
14:47:34 <Ngevd> When I use Haskell I put way too few line breaks in
14:47:39 <Ngevd> Which makes my code hard to read
14:47:43 <Ngevd> And I get confused
14:47:47 <kallisti_> "
14:47:51 <Vorpal> heh
14:47:59 <kallisti_> what is ^M in an emacs buffer?
14:48:19 <kallisti_> it's related to linebreaks... is it 
14:48:20 <Vorpal> kallisti_, CR iirc, as in CRLF
14:48:22 <kallisti_> \r maybe?
14:48:23 <kallisti_> ah
14:48:26 <kallisti_> yes
14:48:28 <Vorpal> from windows newlines
14:48:30 <Vorpal> yeah
14:48:32 <kallisti_> bah
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14:48:38 <Vorpal> Ngevd, make a line break when you hit column 80.
14:48:40 * kallisti_ whips out perl.
14:48:40 <elliott> WTF?
14:48:40 <Vorpal> that is all ;P
14:48:45 <elliott> XChat forgot all my settings.
14:48:51 <Vorpal> elliott, ouch
14:48:52 <kallisti_> elliott: lame
14:48:55 <elliott> EXCEPT my freenode server settings.
14:48:58 <kallisti_> elliott: irssi never forgets my settings.
14:48:58 <Vorpal> elliott, did you /save?
14:49:03 <kallisti_> elliott: clearly that is why it is better.
14:49:11 <Ngevd> Vorpal, so col 183 is bad?
14:49:16 <elliott> Vorpal: No? I've quit it normally like a normal person.
14:49:21 <Vorpal> Ngevd, yes. yes it is.
14:49:38 <Vorpal> elliott, hm as long as you don't kill it abnomally it should save settings.
14:49:49 <Vorpal> abnormally*
14:50:02 <Ngevd> What's the rules for indenting wheres in Haskell?
14:50:31 <elliott> Ngevd: I use
14:50:33 <elliott> foo = bar
14:50:35 <elliott>   where ...
14:50:38 <elliott>         ...
14:50:49 <Vorpal> Ngevd, anyway that about column 80 was a joke. Often you make a new line far before that...
14:50:57 <elliott> Vorpal: I think I killed it abnormally last time, but it had /previously saved/.
14:51:06 <elliott> Also, 80 columns isn't enough for Haskell.
14:51:09 <elliott> Well, 80 columns might be.
14:51:11 <kallisti_> Ngevd: 1) open emacs  2) press tab
14:51:11 <elliott> But not <80 cols.
14:51:13 <Vorpal> strange
14:51:30 <Ngevd> elliott, how about ifs?
14:51:41 <elliott> Ngevd: Don't use 'em :P But
14:51:42 <elliott> if foo
14:51:43 <kallisti_> Vorpal: so for my gaming desktop I am thinking this http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130687
14:51:44 <elliott>   then ...
14:51:45 <Vorpal> elliott, I know I killed xchat many times in weird ways. Usually X crashing or such. And I never had that issue.
14:51:46 <elliott>   else ...
14:51:46 <kallisti_> is what I want.
14:52:16 <Vorpal> kallisti_, that site loads slowly from here
14:52:20 <kallisti_> Vorpal: do you think this is overkill or a decent choice?
14:52:21 <kallisti_> ah okay.
14:52:30 <Vorpal> really slowly
14:52:32 <Vorpal> still just a white page
14:52:50 <kallisti_> it has to travel all the way across Europe.
14:52:55 <kallisti_> that's a long journey.
14:53:02 <Ngevd> My comments are really insightful: "very long line! aaaaaah!"
14:53:03 <Vorpal> that is a lot of GPU memory.
14:53:33 <Vorpal> kallisti_, it will probably be enough from what I remember of the nvidia product line
14:53:39 <Vorpal> which isn't that much
14:53:45 <Ngevd> With that comment, the line is 210 characters long
14:53:46 <kallisti_> Vorpal: I'm almost positive it will be enough
14:53:52 <Vorpal> kallisti_, I never heard of EVGA
14:53:57 <kallisti_> Vorpal: the reviews are basically "lol I can run everything max settings no problems"
14:54:00 <Vorpal> no idea if they make good quality stuff
14:54:05 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EVGA_Corporation
14:54:21 <kallisti_> Vorpal: eh, I've seen bad reviews on some of their products as the result of failures.
14:54:30 <Vorpal> hm
14:54:51 <kallisti_> but this one has gotten pretty good reviews
14:55:09 <kallisti_> actually most of the bad reviews were because of SLI or whatever it's called
14:55:15 <Vorpal> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EVGA_Corporation#Customer_Service_Support <-- how suspect
14:55:21 <kallisti_> people were complaining because their motherboard didn't support SLI.
14:55:30 <Vorpal> mhm
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14:55:43 <Ngevd> What's the best way to find the lowest empty key in a Map
14:55:44 <Ngevd> ?
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14:56:33 <Vorpal> kallisti_, also there is no sound level listed for the fan
14:56:45 <Vorpal> kallisti_, so if you want a quiet system you might run into issues
14:57:00 <kallisti_> hm
14:57:21 <kallisti_> well I /could/ try liquid cooling on the CPU
14:57:26 <kallisti_> that would cut down on noise a bit.
14:57:31 <elliott> good luck with that.
14:57:35 <Vorpal> kallisti_, the GPU fan will be much louder than the CPU one probablyu
14:57:37 <Vorpal> probably*
14:57:48 <kallisti_> is it possible to liquid cool those? :P
14:58:00 <Vorpal> kallisti_, I wouldn't risk liquid cooling a computer
14:58:04 <Vorpal> but maybe
14:58:13 <kallisti_> it's... a pretty common thing, I thought.
14:58:15 <Vorpal> I lack the expertise to answer that question
14:58:18 <elliott> you realise that liquid cooling is (a) not the quietest method without spending tons and tons of money (b) a huge pain to set up
14:58:25 <kallisti_> elliott: nope
14:58:32 <elliott> it's also (c) not actually that risky but w/e
14:58:45 <Vorpal> elliott, still it is more risky than air cooling.
14:58:57 <Vorpal> what you want is completely passive cooling ;P
14:59:23 <Vorpal> However the heatsink would probably end up larger than the computer
14:59:39 <kallisti_> Cons: The fan can get bit loud when gaming.
14:59:55 <elliott> Vorpal: many things are more risky than other things
15:00:04 <Vorpal> kallisti_, doesn't in my system
15:00:05 <elliott> it's disingenuous to go on that basis if the absolute risk is still low
15:00:09 <Vorpal> my GPU fan is very quiet
15:00:18 <elliott> Vorpal: of course it doesn't because he's not talking about your gpu jfc
15:00:24 <Vorpal> and I never got it to run above 50% fan speed
15:00:25 <kallisti_> Pros: takes on everything with no problems
15:00:26 <kallisti_> fan is silent
15:00:28 <kallisti_> lol
15:00:31 <Vorpal> it idles at about 19%
15:00:37 <kallisti_> GOING BY CUSTOMER REVIEWS IS DIFFICULT
15:00:56 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed I'm just mentioning that as a data point
15:01:06 <kallisti_> Vorpal: what is your card.
15:01:10 <kallisti_> is it $400
15:01:21 <kallisti_> is it one of those ungodly $700 things
15:01:25 <elliott> kallisti_: you also realise you could just buy an aftermarket cooler
15:01:30 <Vorpal> kallisti_, Radeon HD 6850. Made by ASUS
15:01:30 <kallisti_> elliott: no.
15:01:40 <kallisti_> elliott: I literally do not spend much time thinking about computer shopping
15:01:49 <kallisti_> elliott: until I need to
15:01:50 <kallisti_> such as now.
15:01:51 <elliott> kallisti_: i can't wait to hear the story of how your computer blew up 
15:01:54 <elliott> s/ $//
15:01:59 <kallisti_> never
15:02:19 <Vorpal> kallisti_, and I don't remember how much it cost
15:02:31 <kallisti_> Vorpal: does it play everything ever on max settings with no problems?
15:02:32 <kallisti_> this is key.
15:02:55 <elliott> i want my computer to play everything on max settings. and be silent forever. and cost less than $700
15:03:01 <elliott> --kallisti
15:03:01 <kallisti_> yes.
15:03:04 <kallisti_> also: no
15:03:05 <Vorpal> kallisti_, well, most things. If I run fraps it tends to slow down a bit.
15:03:13 <kallisti_> just play everything on max settings and not be too loud.
15:03:21 <kallisti_> cost can be like... I don't care.
15:03:37 <kallisti_> Vorpal: help what is fraps
15:03:43 <Vorpal> kallisti_, but without that it runs witcher 2, gta iv and skyrim fine on max. Well not witcher 2 but you need a dual-GPU setup to do that. It runs witcher 2 max minus supersampling fine
15:04:22 <kallisti_> hm okay.
15:04:27 <Vorpal> kallisti_, fraps is a program on windows that measures FPS in any directx application. Also it can take screenshots and capture what you are playing into a video
15:04:37 <kallisti_> I see.
15:04:46 <Vorpal> kallisti_, it does slow down games a bit though
15:04:58 <kallisti_> this will be useful as I will be maintaining a very popular Starcraft 2 livestream
15:05:01 <kallisti_> (not really)
15:05:14 <Vorpal> kallisti_, I don't think fraps would work for a livestream
15:05:46 <Vorpal> I used it for screenshots mostly
15:06:38 <kallisti_> yeah I think I'll go with this one why not.
15:06:53 <Vorpal> kallisti_, anyway wrt noise, I have a very good computer case with sound reducing multi-layer stuff and so on
15:07:15 <kallisti_> sounds expensive.
15:07:16 <Vorpal> kallisti_, Antec P183
15:07:27 <Vorpal> well, it is nicely organized inside as well
15:07:34 <elliott> i hate the p183 beacuse its so much fucking uglier than the p182
15:07:39 <Vorpal> elliott, is it?
15:07:51 * kallisti_ literally has almost zero opinions about computer hardware.
15:07:56 <Vorpal> elliott, don't they look about the same except for it having a USB3 port?
15:07:57 <Vorpal> iirc
15:08:03 <elliott> http://tech-reviews.co.uk/images/reviews/p183/main.jpg
15:08:03 <elliott> http://xsreviews.co.uk/modules/FCKeditor/Upload/Image/AntecP182/stock.jpg
15:08:04 <elliott> no
15:08:19 <Vorpal> well okay
15:08:48 <kallisti_> wow that's an expensive case.
15:08:50 <Vorpal> kallisti_, also: dust filter and many harddisk slots
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15:09:18 <Vorpal> kallisti_, and there are rubber things to reduce hdd vibrations 
15:09:23 <Vorpal> very nice case
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15:09:31 <Vorpal> kallisti_, and I would say it is worth the money
15:09:39 <kallisti_> p182 is actually more expensive.
15:09:44 <Vorpal> is it? heh
15:09:55 <Vorpal> I wonder why
15:10:45 <Vorpal> kallisti_, note however that the PSU goes at the bottom in P183. Which is fine except that my PSU uses flat cables with connectors mounted on the side and is designed to be mounted at the top. it is a bit awkward in some places
15:10:51 <Vorpal> especially with the HDD power
15:11:10 <Vorpal> I have a modular Corsair PSU
15:11:48 <Vorpal> actually it is only the hdd power that ends up awkward really
15:11:59 <kallisti_> I imagine I'll need a high-watt PSU given the graphics card (that I may not actually buy I haven't decided)
15:12:34 <Vorpal> kallisti_, if you buy an efficient PSU (80+ Gold certified or whatever it is called) then you won't waste much power due to having a too powerful PSU
15:12:49 <Vorpal> besides that gives you some headroom if you want to upgrade components
15:13:08 <elliott> <Vorpal> is it? heh
15:13:08 <elliott> <Vorpal> I wonder why
15:13:11 <Vorpal> I mean, I have a 750 W PSU. I could probably throw in several more HDDs without any issue.
15:13:14 <elliott> discontinued iirc, or at least just less popular
15:13:19 <Vorpal> ah
15:13:44 <Vorpal> elliott, I would have thought the price would go down as they tried to get rid of any left over stock then
15:13:46 <elliott> also, don't get a 750 watt psu if you don't have to. the fans will be louder even at lower loads
15:13:58 <elliott> people buy way too overpowered psus out of paranoia
15:14:20 <Vorpal> elliott, the fans on this one are really quiet. I tested when I put it together. I can't hear the fan basically.
15:14:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Ooh, thermodynamics.
15:14:48 <kallisti_> also for processor I am considering the AMD Phenom II X4 970  (3.5 GHz quad core, though apparently some X4's have two extra cores that you can unlock??)
15:14:56 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway iirc I end up on a max theoretical consumption of around 600 W with my current setup.
15:15:11 <Vorpal> idle is far lower of course
15:15:16 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, what about those things where you have stuff that boils at CPU temperature.
15:15:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Your mom boils at CPU temperature? Also hi.
15:15:58 <elliott> TOPICAL: How's vax.
15:16:01 <elliott> Your vacuum.
15:16:02 <elliott> That is.
15:16:09 <Phantom_Hoover> It sucks?
15:16:12 <kallisti_> Vorpal: I would like you to inject my mind with your opinions on this processor.
15:16:15 <elliott> :D
15:16:25 <kallisti_> Vorpal: because I am computer purchasing nub
15:16:45 <kallisti_> (convenient link for opinion forming: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103894)
15:16:58 <Vorpal> kallisti_, I have an intel CPU. Because they run cooler given the same computing power. At least that was true when I bought my CPU. They are more expensive though.
15:17:02 <kallisti_> wow heatsink and fan included!
15:17:23 <kallisti_> Vorpal: yes I was mostly going with cost, but I guess efficiency ends up being cheaper in the long run.
15:17:38 <Vorpal> kallisti_, well couldn't answer that. I'm mostly after a quiet system.
15:17:52 <Vorpal> my system is only slightly louder than my thinkpad laptop at idle 
15:18:06 <kallisti_> my laptop is loud
15:18:08 <kallisti_> always
15:18:09 <Vorpal> kallisti_, I have a core i7, 4 core at 3.4 GHz. I tend to do some heavy single-thread computations though.
15:18:11 <kallisti_> I need to clean the fan.
15:18:44 <Vorpal> kallisti_, my laptop idles at 0 RPM on it's fan if it is a cold day. If it is a hot day it idles on 1500 RPM.  :P
15:18:47 <kallisti_> I tend to do HEAVY DUTY MULTI-CORE NATURAL LANGUAGE STATISTICAL COMPUTING
15:18:51 <kallisti_> so I need all the power I can get.
15:18:51 <Vorpal> I don't think it has a step in between
15:18:59 <Vorpal> in practise both are completely silent
15:19:43 <Vorpal> my desktop is not completely silent, but very quiet
15:19:58 <kallisti_> I bet my desktop will be loud
15:20:13 <Vorpal> I am considering replacing the case fans though. They are stock and not as quiet as they could be.
15:20:19 <elliott> 04:14:50: <elliott> monqy have you ever been so tired you just fell asleep
15:20:20 <elliott> 04:39:33: <monqy> future elliott: yes i have been so tired i involuntarily slipped unconscious (this has happened multiple times)
15:20:25 <elliott> monqy: i swear to god i meant to type "so cold"
15:20:27 <elliott> like
15:20:32 <elliott> only now do i realise that i did not actually type "cold"
15:20:36 <elliott> but "tired"
15:20:38 <kallisti_> especially when I play starcraft II, skyrim, and magicka on three monitors.
15:20:45 <kallisti_> (I won't actually attempt to do that)
15:20:56 <monqy> speaking of sleeping involuntarily it may happen today. excitement.
15:21:21 <Vorpal> kallisti_, you have a multi monitor setup? No idea if such a GPU would be enough then
15:21:22 <elliott> 05:53:07: <kallisti> @tell oerjan You remember how you said your ZipList monad was obvious? Apparently in #haskell no one knows about it.
15:21:23 <Phantom_Hoover> On the topic of being cold, I'm fairly sure my breath is misting up again.
15:21:32 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, indoors?
15:21:33 <kallisti_> Vorpal: I currently have absolutely zero setup.
15:21:33 <Vorpal> wtf
15:21:37 <elliott> kallisti_: no fucking shit, the whole reason oerjan is interested in it is because the prevailing opinion is that it's impossible
15:21:44 <Vorpal> kallisti_, what do you use atm?
15:21:47 <Phantom_Hoover> What is it?
15:21:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ?
15:21:54 <kallisti_> elliott: okay?
15:22:01 <Phantom_Hoover> ZipList.
15:22:31 <kallisti_> Vorpal: dell inspiron something... Core i3 2.1 GHz dual core hyperthreaded
15:22:52 <Vorpal> kallisti_, not too bad actually.
15:23:04 <elliott> @src ZipList
15:23:04 <lambdabot> Source not found. Wrong!  You cheating scum!
15:23:05 <Vorpal> kallisti_, I mean compared to what I had before I upgraded
15:23:05 <elliott> gah
15:23:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: newtype ZipList = ZipList { getZipList :: [a] }
15:23:13 <kallisti_> it works for my purposes. Except not anymore because I want to play viji games.
15:23:15 <Vorpal> kallisti_, which was something from 2006
15:23:21 <Vorpal> kallisti_, viji?
15:23:23 <kallisti_> yes.
15:23:39 <Vorpal> kallisti_, what is viji?
15:23:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: instance Applicative ZipList where pure = ZipList . repeat; ZipList (f:fs) <*> ZipList (x:xs) = ZipList (f x : getZipList (fs <*> xs))
15:23:51 <kallisti_> elliott: I was replying to a previous statement where oerjan said the ZipList monad should be obvious to anyone who has tried to figure it out.
15:23:54 <monqy> some people have trouble saying video
15:24:09 <Phantom_Hoover> :t repeat
15:24:10 <lambdabot> forall a. a -> [a]
15:24:15 <Vorpal> monqy, oh I see
15:24:20 <Vorpal> monqy, doesn't make sense when typing
15:25:16 <elliott> kallisti_: why are you assuming people in #haskell have tried to figure it out...
15:25:24 <elliott> most people don't try to do things everyone says is impossible
15:25:51 <kallisti_> elliott: I'm not. it was a casual statement. I don't know why you're scrutinizing it so much.
15:26:13 <elliott> it amused me, that's all :p
15:26:27 <kallisti_> Vorpal: I got this laptop about a year and a half ago. Before that I was using an old Dell desktop from 2004 maybe? It was a celeron and had 256 MBs of memory before I installed 2 GBs
15:26:29 <elliott> i mean oerjan's ziplist shenanigans don't really make much sense if you don't know why he's doing them
15:27:02 <kallisti_> elliott: I knew the prevailing opinion was that it was not a monad.
15:27:06 <kallisti_> this is why I brought it up in #haskell
15:27:08 <kallisti_> because someone mentioned
15:27:12 <kallisti_> that it is impossible.
15:27:21 <kallisti_> and I was like "BRB #ESOTERIC LOGS"
15:27:39 <kallisti_> (not really)
15:27:45 <kallisti_> (good paraphrase)
15:29:56 <Vorpal> kallisti_, ah
15:31:51 <kallisti_> I wonder what I did
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15:31:58 <kallisti_> before I started using find.
15:32:20 <kallisti_> or actually *sh in general
15:32:33 <kallisti_> I bet I clicked on stuff with a mouse a lot.
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15:42:03 <kallisti_> Vorpal: how is witcher 2?
15:42:48 <Vorpal> kallisti_, it is a well put together RPG
15:43:02 <Vorpal> kallisti_, I can't think of any major issue with it.
15:44:02 <Vorpal> kallisti_, it is obviously a PC game originally rather than a console port: the graphics are good and the menu system makes sense with a keyboard and mouse
15:44:07 <Vorpal> unlike for example skyrim
15:46:28 <Vorpal> kallisti_, I would strongly recommend it, but note that it is a mature game and is rated as such. Don't let kids play it.
15:47:04 <Vorpal> (and unlike many other games rated mature it is not actually immature!)
15:47:08 <elliott> unless they're cool kids
15:47:10 <elliott> in which case let them play it
15:47:13 <Vorpal> hah
15:48:21 <Vorpal> anyway there are hard moral choices. And nothing is censored. But it doesn't make immature jokes all over the place like Saints Row 3 does for example. Rather it simply depict a harsh world.
15:48:25 <Vorpal> depicts*
15:48:29 <Vorpal> if you see what I mean
15:48:31 <Ngevd> Goodbye, I have a sudden desire to play console Sandbox Fighter/Platformer/Stealth games set in cities I have named esolangs indirectly after
15:48:40 <elliott> hi
15:48:46 <elliott> whattsss
15:48:47 <elliott> up
15:48:48 <Vorpal> Ngevd, lol?
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15:48:56 <Vorpal> hah
15:49:03 <Vorpal> I'm trying out that game atm
15:49:12 <Vorpal> well kind of.
15:49:15 <Vorpal> I'm cleaning too
15:49:26 <Vorpal> I just got to the start of the prologue
15:50:12 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm seeing Vorpal dusting with one hand and trying to play Assassin's Creed with the other.
15:50:28 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hah not quite
15:50:35 <Vorpal> I paused the game actually
15:50:40 <Vorpal> and with my third hand I'm chatting on irc
15:51:05 <Vorpal> anyway I suck at the game atm. Can't get my head around the controls. They are not the standard ones
15:51:12 <Vorpal> right click to run, wtf man?
15:51:16 <elliott> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> I had a dream last night where I got hit by a van but the van had a brain uploader in it and I was uploaded and I angsted because I was stuck spending eternity with singularitarians?
15:51:20 <HackEgo> 786) <Phantom_Hoover> I had a dream last night where I got hit by a van but the van had a brain uploader in it and I was uploaded and I angsted because I was stuck spending eternity with singularitarians?
15:52:02 <Vorpal> I dreamed I was trying to report a bug in the haskell syntax highlighting of xchat. Wtf.
15:52:30 <elliott> well xchat's haskell syntax highlighting is really bad
15:52:35 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed
15:55:07 <Vorpal> elliott, in the dream the auto indention for C# was really broken as well. It used tab if the line started with a keyword, otherwise space.
15:56:09 <Phantom_Hoover> When I try to indent my C# code with a tab in XChat, it just displays this list of nicks.
15:56:10 <Phantom_Hoover> WTF?
15:56:17 <Vorpal> lol
15:56:19 <elliott> Vorpal: i'm starting to think i should use a different editor instead
15:56:25 <elliott> xchat is too bloated, it even has an IRC client!
15:56:29 <Vorpal> heh
15:56:29 <elliott> what kind of editor has an IRC client?
15:56:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Vim?
15:56:51 <Gregor> *ba-dum tsh*
15:56:51 <lambdabot> Gregor: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
15:56:55 <Gregor> For effs
15:56:56 <Gregor> @messages
15:56:57 <lambdabot> colloinkgravisom said 1d 11h 16m 4s ago: Gregor: please unfilter ctrl+b, ctrl+c, thanxkx
15:57:12 <Gregor> elliott: No. Thanxkx.
15:57:15 <elliott> Gregor:
15:57:20 <elliott> ^rainbow2 Fuck you
15:57:20 <fungot> ████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████ ...too much output!
15:57:22 <elliott> Oops
15:57:23 <elliott> ^rainbow Fuck you
15:57:23 <fungot> Fuck you
15:57:41 <Gregor> I'm confused by the fact that I know my client can display colors, yet it's not willing to.
15:57:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, when did +c get taken on?
15:57:44 <Gregor> Foo?
15:57:47 <Phantom_Hoover> *off
15:57:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: A while ago.
15:58:17 <elliott> Gregor: Anyway, I want them unfiltered because I wanted to `addquote with bold because something funny happened that was funny because of bold.
15:58:29 <Gregor> elliott: Cry me a river.
15:58:40 <elliott> Gregor: You suck.
15:58:43 <Gregor> 8-D
15:58:52 <elliott> Gregor: So much for the world's most hackable IRC bot!!!
15:59:37 <Gregor> The reduction in hackability resulting from this restriction still yields it the world's most hackable.
16:00:25 <Gregor> I want to go to sleep, but it's 11AM.
16:00:32 <Gregor> HAHAHAZZZZZZ*off to work*
16:00:38 <elliott> Gregor: Just you wait
16:00:40 <elliott> Gregor: Until I wrote
16:00:46 <elliott> ColorId
16:00:50 <elliott> *ou
16:00:52 <elliott> oops how embarsing
16:01:15 <Vorpal> wtf the controls in this game are so broken
16:01:16 <Vorpal> shift to loot and pick up?
16:01:16 <Vorpal> right mouse button to run.
16:01:21 <Vorpal> this is so utterly non-standard
16:01:40 <Vorpal> most games use e to pick up, shift or ctrl to run.
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16:03:39 <Vorpal> wait what, right mouse button and space to jump? while just space is walk fast
16:03:44 <Vorpal> there is no logic to this even
16:03:46 <Vorpal> ...
16:03:58 -!- cheater has joined.
16:04:24 <kallisti_> Vorpal: sure there is.
16:04:27 <kallisti_> if it's like a platformer
16:04:31 <kallisti_> then you jump around a lot while running.
16:05:02 <Vorpal> kallisti_, eh
16:05:05 <kallisti_> admittedly it's non-standard
16:05:09 <kallisti_> but standardness is BORING
16:05:13 <kallisti_> games are about FUN
16:05:14 <Vorpal> very non-standard indeed
16:05:16 <kallisti_> dawg
16:05:34 <Vorpal> kallisti_, I think oblivion's swapping of space and e is enough for me
16:05:37 <elliott> kallisti_: You appear to be under the impression that Vorpal can experience fun.
16:05:42 <elliott> He actually plays games to feel really standard.
16:06:04 <Vorpal> elliott, I play games to have fun. Awkward controls doesn't make the game fun
16:06:30 <elliott> Vorpal: Just like Gregor says "smell" and means "fnarf", you say "fun" and mean "comfortingly standard".
16:06:36 <elliott> This is an Official Fact.
16:07:28 <Vorpal> also it use checkpoints, not quicksave
16:07:36 <kallisti_> my god
16:07:44 <kallisti_> it's like an old school game
16:07:46 <kallisti_> or like magicka
16:07:53 <kallisti_> EVIL WOORLD WHAT IS WQRONG
16:09:26 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> Vorpal: Just like Gregor says "smell" and means "fnarf", you say "fun" and mean "comfortingly standard".
16:09:38 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought fnarf was what Gregor did instead of taste?
16:09:42 -!- cheater has quit (Excess Flood).
16:09:53 <elliott> Er, maybe.
16:09:54 <elliott> Same thing.
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16:11:13 <Vorpal> and far between the checkpoints
16:11:13 <Vorpal> kallisti_, I have nothing against hard games, and nothing against checkpoints if they are placed in reasonable places
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16:51:51 <elliott> hi ais523
16:52:26 <ais523> hi elliott
16:53:02 <elliott> hi ais523
16:55:31 <ais523> elliott: sorry, I've been busy with AceHack rather than esolangs
16:58:42 <elliott> hi
16:58:52 <elliott> i've been busy with nothing
17:00:52 <kallisti> I've been busy with busy.
17:01:57 <elliott> the best kind of busy
17:01:58 -!- MSleep has changed nick to MDude.
17:05:16 <kallisti> elliott: you know what sucks about Python?
17:05:20 <kallisti> it's neither Haskell nor Perl.
17:05:26 <kallisti> these are serious disadvantages.
17:08:52 <kallisti> for example, it requires explicit conversions between data types, but with none of the compile-time benefits of requiring those.
17:09:04 <kallisti> THIS IS BOTH UNLIKE PERL AND UNLIKE HASKELL
17:09:09 <kallisti> badd
17:09:34 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2324087/is-jquery-faster-than-javascript
17:09:40 <kallisti> ..
17:09:50 <kallisti> is
17:09:50 <kallisti> what?
17:10:01 <quintopia> :D
17:10:17 <kallisti> is Django faster than Python?
17:10:40 <kallisti> that's ridiculous on at least two levels.
17:10:42 <kallisti> possibly more.
17:10:50 <monqy> is monads faster than haskell
17:10:51 <Deewiant> Is Apache faster than PHP?
17:10:58 <elliott> Deewiant: yes
17:11:10 <ais523> kallisti: you can interpret it as "if I'm writing a JavaScript program, will it be faster if I use idiomatic jQuery, or idiomatic non-jQuery?"
17:11:14 <elliott> Deewiant: but only when interpreted
17:11:41 <elliott> monqy: no, monads is about order of operations, that's more constraint so it has to work it out so it's slower
17:11:42 <Deewiant> What about lighttpd?
17:11:44 <elliott> for maximum speed use unsafeperformio
17:11:46 <kallisti> ais523: yes that's semi-reasonable, but it still depends on implementation I would think.
17:12:01 <elliott> Deewiant: lighttpd is usually compiled to PHP code and run under Apache, so it's faster than both.
17:12:09 <Deewiant> I see.
17:12:16 <elliott> Deewiant: but only if you use jquery
17:12:49 <kallisti> ais523: I would imagine JQuery either helps or doesn't hurt at all.
17:12:57 <ais523> kallisti: not necessarily
17:12:57 <kallisti> but would not make your program slower.
17:13:02 <kallisti> but that's just a guess.
17:13:11 <ais523> doing document.write("abc"); is almost certainly faster than the jQuery idiomatic way to do just that
17:13:30 <kallisti> oh, okay. see I wouldn't think jQuery needs an idiomatic way to do that.
17:13:38 <elliott> ais523: I doubt document.write is very fast, because it's strongly deprecated.
17:13:44 <ais523> elliott: well, OK, indeed
17:13:46 <elliott> So not many people will care about optimising it.
17:14:10 <elliott> ais523: jQuery does have a really heavily-optimised CSS selector library IIRC, so it's quite likely to be faster than rolling your own DOM traversal loop in some cases
17:14:40 <kallisti> does JQuery make any use of xpath?
17:15:11 <kallisti> xpath doesn't seem as commonly used as it probably could be..
17:15:28 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/799961/most-efficient-way-to-turn-x-y-into-true
17:16:06 <ais523> elliott: oh, a line of code I saw in NetHack today, simplified/anonymised because I can't remember the details: !(!!x ^ !!y)
17:16:28 <ais523> I /think/ it simplifies to !x == !y; I don't know if that's easier to understand or not than the original
17:16:31 <elliott> ais523: :(
17:16:38 <elliott> well ^ is just !=
17:16:39 <kallisti> elliott: what a weird exercise in futility.
17:16:43 <elliott> so it's !(!!x != !!y)
17:16:45 <elliott> so
17:16:47 <elliott> !!x == !!y
17:16:48 <elliott> so x == y
17:16:52 <elliott> but x and y are coerced to booleans
17:16:55 <elliott> so it's
17:16:59 <elliott> (bool)x == (bool)y
17:17:00 <ais523> elliott: yep, it's (bool)x==(bool)y
17:17:01 <Deewiant> So !!x == !!y
17:17:03 <Deewiant> :-P
17:17:05 <elliott> Deewiant: yes :)
17:17:07 <ais523> or in C89, !x == !y
17:17:14 <ais523> (! is simpler than !! in this case)
17:17:17 <elliott> oh, indeed
17:17:26 <Deewiant> Depends on the situation a bit
17:17:33 * elliott has written {foo ^= true} before
17:17:45 <elliott> I'd rather "foo !=;" though :)
17:17:51 <Deewiant> The optimizer might be able to optimize out !! but not ! in some cases, I think
17:18:33 <elliott> Deewiant: huh? like when?
17:18:59 <elliott> @src sum
17:18:59 <lambdabot> sum = foldl (+) 0
17:19:13 <elliott> sum [0..] doesn't seem to stack overflow in my GHC
17:19:16 <elliott> I guess strictness analysis
17:19:33 <Deewiant> Hmm. If the compiler already knows the values are 0 or 1, it should be able to optimize out both... so I guess not, after all.
17:23:21 <kallisti> elliott: I believe sum is written strictly anyway.
17:23:28 <kallisti> using foldl'
17:23:45 <elliott> kallisti:
17:23:49 <elliott> <elliott> @src sum
17:23:50 <elliott> <lambdabot> sum = foldl (+) 0
17:24:05 <kallisti> elliott: we all know how accurate @src can be
17:24:30 <kallisti> > sum [0..]
17:24:35 <lambdabot>   mueval: ExitFailure 1
17:24:35 <lambdabot>  mueval: Prelude.undefined
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17:24:37 <elliott> kallisti: Um, that's the Report definition.
17:24:41 <Ngevd> Hello!
17:24:41 <elliott> kallisti: Using foldl' would change semantics.
17:25:00 <elliott> Deewiant: How do I put `foo` in monospaced text with reddit markdown, thanks infinite giver of knowledge
17:25:08 <elliott> ``blah `foo` buh`` works but not ```foo```
17:25:11 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `blah: not found
17:25:18 <Ngevd> I really need to get out of the habit of watching end credits all the way through
17:25:43 <Deewiant> elliott: `` `foo` ``
17:25:51 <Deewiant> elliott: And it won't include the spaces
17:25:54 <kallisti> elliott: ah well it doesn't use foldl at all actually
17:25:58 <kallisti> it uses an accumulating parameter.
17:25:59 <Deewiant> elliott: (Sez http://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/syntax )
17:26:08 <kallisti> http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/libraries/base/src/Data-List.html#sum
17:26:40 <elliott> Deewiant: Ha ha, thinking that daringfireball's description of Markdown syntax is implemented universally BUT I'LL TRY IT THX
17:26:41 <Ngevd> This has got to be the least elliott-friendly Haskell program ever. It even doesn't work!
17:27:03 <elliott> Deewiant: Golly, it worked
17:27:12 <Deewiant> elliott: I've yet to run into problems with that spec in Pandoc :-P
17:28:12 <elliott> Deewiant: reddit uses snudown which is a fork of sundown which is a fork of upskirt, and used to use Discount which is its complete own thing :P
17:28:18 <Ngevd> :t test :: NotRealType
17:28:19 <elliott> I think nobody's managed to agree on a table syntax yet.
17:28:25 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `test'
17:28:25 <lambdabot>     Not in scope: type constructor or class `NotRealType'
17:28:51 <Ngevd> There are two good reasons why that doesn't work
17:29:16 <Deewiant> elliott: Alright, didn't know that. I'm not exactly a hardcore Reddit commenter/markdown user so I just go by daringfireball when I want to do something I'm not used to :-P
17:29:53 * elliott MARKDOWN SCIENTIST
17:30:49 <Deewiant> (And by Pandoc when I want to do something that's not in daringfireball; that's only happened on my website thus far, hence Pandoc.)
17:31:51 <kallisti> Ngevd: how's your horrible family tree thing going?
17:32:20 <Ngevd> kallisti, elliott-unfriendily
17:32:38 <kallisti> did you do something horrible or did you just use a tree like a sane person?
17:32:43 <Ngevd> But I'm now using a combination of Data.Graph and Data.Map
17:32:43 <elliott> "Also, you should always use braces! [...] There is no hanging-else ambiguity in the above code." --Stack Overflow user, criticising code from K&R
17:32:48 <monqy> horrible family tee thin--oh dear
17:32:53 <kallisti> Ngevd: that works.
17:32:56 <Ngevd> type FamilyTree = (Map Int Person, Graph)
17:32:57 <elliott> KERNIGHAN AND RITCHIE WHADDO THEY KNOW
17:33:02 <elliott> Ngevd: "data" dude
17:33:06 <elliott> don't... don't use tuples
17:33:10 <elliott> like that
17:33:34 <Ngevd> I told you about the elliott-unfriendliness
17:33:38 <Ngevd> I WARNED you dog
17:33:41 <monqy> uhh Ngevd what hpappens when there are cycles,,,
17:33:50 <monqy> i dont think familys work like that...
17:33:52 <kallisti> monqy: no cycles allowed
17:33:55 <elliott> monqy: future proofing
17:33:59 <kallisti> (unless you're British HAHAHAHAHAH)
17:34:28 <kallisti> (I can't really talk I live in THE SOUTHERN UNITED STATES)
17:35:24 <kallisti> Ngevd: also what is Int?
17:35:37 <Ngevd> It's... in Prelude
17:35:40 <kallisti> no I mean
17:35:41 <kallisti> what
17:35:43 <kallisti> is the key of your map
17:35:46 <kallisti> why is it int
17:35:53 <Ngevd> So it's easier for Graph
17:35:58 <kallisti> but what is it
17:35:59 <Ngevd> As Vertex is defined as Int
17:36:02 <Ngevd> Arbitary
17:36:09 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8626109/how-can-i-get-what-my-main-function-has-returned
17:36:15 <Ngevd> Completely Arbitary
17:36:23 <elliott> Ngevd: use fgl dude
17:36:26 <elliott> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/fgl
17:36:33 <elliott> Data.Graph is ~not very good~
17:36:50 <kallisti> I'm not entirely sure he needs a graph..
17:37:17 <Ngevd> The graph is used to check who's whose child
17:37:31 <monqy> eh?
17:37:36 <elliott> kallisti: sure he does
17:37:37 <elliott> i mean
17:37:54 <elliott> a tree structure falls down at the first incest
17:37:59 <elliott> and Ngevd is british :P
17:38:06 <kallisti> I guess.
17:38:24 <kallisti> Ngevd: okay but why are you looking up people by integers in both a Map
17:38:26 <kallisti> and in a Graph
17:38:32 <elliott> istr that the mormons actually have a standard format for family trees that can't actually represent incest because they're mormons
17:38:42 <elliott> i guess they just restructure the family trees???
17:38:52 <elliott> kallisti: because a Graph just stores Ints
17:38:57 <elliott> you need to be able to correlate them with the actual people
17:39:03 <elliott> this is why Ngevd should use fgl :P
17:39:15 <kallisti> elliott: I'm saying I think he has his map backwards
17:39:20 <kallisti> it should be like Map Int Person
17:39:21 <kallisti> er
17:39:23 <kallisti> Map Person Int
17:39:24 <kallisti> oopse
17:39:26 <elliott> no
17:39:27 <elliott> it shouldn't
17:39:30 <elliott> you get an Int out of the graph structure
17:39:34 <Deewiant> Let me guess: type Person = String??
17:39:34 <elliott> you need to look up the person it corresponds to
17:39:38 <kallisti> elliott: oh I see.
17:39:53 <elliott> Deewiant: i bet type Person = (String, Int, Float, Double, Rational, [Any])
17:39:58 <elliott> *(Rational, [Any]))
17:40:06 <Ngevd> Person = (Maybe String, Maybe String, Maybe Gender) except as a data
17:40:21 <kallisti> lies
17:40:24 <Deewiant> What're the two Strings
17:40:28 <monqy> maybe gender?
17:40:32 <elliott> Ngevd's nameless somethingless genderless ancestor
17:40:32 <Ngevd> First name and Surname
17:40:43 <elliott> (Nothing, Just "", Nothing) -- this is me
17:41:01 <Deewiant> Ngevd: http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-personal-names
17:41:04 <elliott> Ngevd: also you realise that
17:41:06 <elliott> there we go
17:41:07 <elliott> thanks Deewiant
17:41:20 <Deewiant> Ngevd: Or, as it was put on reddit: "When your program asks for a 'first name' or 'last name', you're doing it wrong"
17:41:22 <monqy> (Just (repeat 'a'), Nothing, Just undefined) -- me
17:41:26 <Ngevd> Using Nothing as unknown, and empty as ACTUALLY NONE
17:41:39 <elliott> yeah Ngevd should just use a single String for names
17:41:53 <elliott> but he won't because the best way to get him to continue doing what he's doing is to tell him what he's doing is bad and propose a better solution :P
17:42:01 <Deewiant> Or a list of strings, for preferred transliterations and such, I guess
17:42:25 <elliott> that's properly overkill for personal use software
17:42:26 <Deewiant> Or a map from language codes to strings
17:42:28 <kallisti> or a Name where Name is a bunch of constructors for different kinds of names. :3
17:42:39 <Ngevd> Hmm... I possibly have Sri Lankan and/or Arab ancestors...
17:42:45 <Ngevd> kallisti, I like that idea
17:42:58 <kallisti> awww yeah
17:43:05 <kallisti> that means you probably shouldn't do it though.
17:43:07 <elliott> Ngevd: he was joking.
17:43:09 <elliott> don't do that.
17:43:13 <kallisti> at least going by elliott's logic.
17:44:11 <Ngevd> I think I'd prefer to keep it to Western names that are likely to appear in the UK and the Netherlands
17:44:16 <Ngevd> FOR NOW
17:44:19 <kallisti> Ngevd: racist
17:45:21 <elliott> Ngevd: why not just use a String
17:45:28 <elliott> uk people have middle names too
17:45:46 <Ngevd> BECAUSE...
17:45:47 <Ngevd> Hmm
17:46:00 <Deewiant> Wikipedia: "A limit to the number of given names is unknown to the Dutch law, so in theory one could give a child an endless series of names. In the Netherlands however, five is usually the limit."
17:46:02 <kallisti> well if it were complex software and would presumably do something with those names
17:46:05 <kallisti> based on surname ec
17:46:09 <kallisti> *etc
17:46:11 <Ngevd> Some people in my family tree have names that lack an instance in the Show class?
17:46:12 <monqy> type Person = Unique
17:46:26 <monqy> what
17:46:39 <ais523> Deewiant: presumably you can't give someone infinitely many given names
17:47:02 <monqy> is that a challenge
17:47:20 <Deewiant> I'd say you can, but no systems or software in place would understand
17:47:22 <kallisti> I suppose you could give them an inductive name generating proof as a name.
17:47:55 <monqy> name dependent on time of day
17:47:59 <Ngevd> "Each name in the baby name book with ISBN ..., repeat when you get to the end"
17:49:03 <monqy> I wonder: the most ridiculous name in a baby name book
17:49:15 <Ngevd> "monqy"
17:49:23 <Ngevd> Who would call their kid "monqy"
17:49:51 <elliott> Ngevd: just use a String, dude
17:50:00 <Ngevd> I mainly have it as two strings so I can search by first name or surname
17:50:09 <elliott> :t isPrefixOf
17:50:10 <lambdabot> forall a. (Eq a) => [a] -> [a] -> Bool
17:50:11 <elliott> :t isSuffixOf
17:50:12 <lambdabot> forall a. (Eq a) => [a] -> [a] -> Bool
17:50:17 <Ngevd> Aaah!
17:50:19 <monqy> :t isInfixOf
17:50:19 <lambdabot> forall a. (Eq a) => [a] -> [a] -> Bool
17:50:20 <elliott> > "Taneb " `isPrefixOf` "Ngevd Taneb"
17:50:21 <lambdabot>   False
17:50:23 <elliott> oops
17:50:25 <elliott> > "Ngevd " `isPrefixOf` "Ngevd Taneb"
17:50:27 <lambdabot>   True
17:50:30 <elliott> > " Taneb" `isSuffixOf` "Ngevd Taneb"
17:50:31 <lambdabot>   True
17:50:47 <monqy> "vd Ta" `isInfixOf` "Ngevd Taneb"
17:50:49 <elliott> > " Middlename " `isInfixOf` "Ngevd Middlename Taneb"
17:50:50 <lambdabot>   True
17:51:00 <Ngevd> "Taneb" is strictly speaking a... fratrinomic? of me
17:51:09 <kallisti> http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/regex-pcre/0.94.2/doc/html/Text-Regex-PCRE.html
17:51:12 <Deewiant> > all (`isInfixOf` "Ngevd Taneb") ["Ngevd ", " Taneb"]
17:51:13 <lambdabot>   True
17:52:44 <Ngevd> I think the only bit of this program elliott will have to actually make an effort to object to is the definition of Gender
17:52:52 <Ngevd> data Gender = Male|Female deriving (Eq, Show)
17:53:16 * elliott is turning over a new leaf of complaining about Ngevd's programs.
17:53:23 <elliott> What I'm going to do is propose ridiculous unworkable solutions.
17:53:30 <elliott> Ngevd: I suggest you define Person as a String, and store JSON in it.
17:53:39 <elliott> Encoded in Mork.
17:53:40 <kallisti> Ngevd: the LGBT community is not pleased with your definition of  gender.
17:53:42 <Deewiant> Ngevd: You know "gender" is the psychological term, so you should include transsexuals and whatnot
17:53:55 <monqy> I stand by Person = Unique
17:54:03 <elliott> Deewiant: His definition already encompasses male and female trans* people
17:54:30 <Deewiant> elliott: If he wants to include only the latest info, sure
17:54:44 <kallisti> monqy: yes I agree unique comparable opaque symbols are a good substitute for information about a person.
17:54:48 <elliott> Deewiant: He doesn't handle name changes either; [Person] would probably be the best way to handle that
17:55:01 <elliott> Deewiant: Although what I'd do is store the current Person, and a list of historical changes
17:55:09 <monqy> kallisti: because that's what people are right
17:55:12 <kallisti> monqy: "computer, give me data about this person."  "well... it's not any of these other people."
17:55:27 <elliott> kallisti: :D
17:55:28 <Deewiant> elliott: Right, a list of people would probably be best
17:55:41 <elliott> Deewiant: I know that when *I* change my name, I become a new person.
17:55:49 <Deewiant> Yep
17:56:02 <monqy> I change my name whenever I become a new person
17:56:36 <kallisti> I name my change whenever I become a new person.
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17:57:36 <kallisti> I name a new person whenever I become my change
17:57:51 <monqy> have I ever become my change?
17:57:55 <Ngevd> Just picturing that now
17:58:06 <elliott> Just picturing that cow
17:58:22 <kallisti> that just cow picturing
17:58:33 <elliott> Picturing that just cow
17:58:41 <kallisti> yesssss
17:58:43 <kallisti> so good
17:58:45 <kallisti> so just
17:58:46 <Ngevd> "Right, this is £19.99. Here's a £20 quid note. Crap, I'm a penny. That new person is Terrence"
17:58:49 <elliott> So cowly.
17:58:52 <Ngevd> :t Just "Cow"
17:58:53 <lambdabot> Maybe [Char]
17:58:53 <elliott> Ngevd: X-D
17:59:00 <monqy> just just cow picturing
17:59:38 <elliott> Cow tools
17:59:50 <monqy> tool cow
18:00:29 <elliott> Just picturing that tool cow's justs
18:00:32 <elliott> Wait, fuck
18:01:43 <kallisti> fuck, wait.
18:01:45 -!- copumpkin has joined.
18:03:04 <elliott> Fuck weight
18:04:31 <kallisti> Famous musician Fuck Waits
18:06:14 <Vorpal> Impression of Assassin's Creed Revelations so far: The controls are utterly weird. Apart from that it is so far quite a nice game. I heard there were some worse parts later on though.
18:06:58 <Vorpal> (I never played any other game in the franchise)
18:07:06 <kallisti> oh I was about to ask
18:07:11 <kallisti> are the controls any different from the other games
18:07:16 <kallisti> they're probably very similar though.
18:07:17 <Ngevd> Yes
18:07:31 <Ngevd> For XBox 360, anyway
18:07:32 <kallisti> I found the controls very intuitive actually
18:07:37 <Vorpal> Ngevd, I'm playing on PC
18:07:39 <kallisti> each button maps to a different concept.
18:08:01 <kallisti> at least on an Xbox control.
18:08:03 <Vorpal> Ngevd, but wtf: right mouse button to run. Shift to loot. e to shoot. space to walk fast.
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18:08:12 <Vorpal> and the climbing stuff is awkward
18:08:15 <Ngevd> Vorpal, that's not on XBox...
18:08:18 <Vorpal> might be better on a console. I don't know
18:08:26 <Vorpal> Ngevd, I don't have an xbox.
18:08:33 <kallisti> Vorpal: oh wait is right mouse button run or is it "loud mode" or whatever.
18:08:46 <Ngevd> Left stick to walk, left stick + right trigger to run
18:08:49 <Vorpal> kallisti, well it is high profile mode, which results in running
18:08:49 <Deewiant> It's not "run", it's "high profile"
18:08:58 <kallisti> Vorpal: ah yes okay
18:09:03 <Vorpal> plus it alters meanings of other controls
18:09:04 <kallisti> that's not too difficult to get used to.
18:09:22 <Vorpal> kallisti, it is kind of weird when you are used to the standard PC RPG keyboard layout
18:09:32 <kallisti> Vorpal: dude if they made shift high profile
18:09:35 <kallisti> you would hate it so much
18:09:40 <kallisti> because you use high profile all the time.
18:09:41 <Vorpal> kallisti, well probably
18:09:51 <Ngevd> What would be handy is Text.GEDCOM
18:10:05 <Vorpal> kallisti, no I don't use it all the time technically. Not when trying to keep a low profile
18:10:10 <Vorpal> but sure, otherwise yes
18:10:28 <kallisti> if I remember the controls correctly you use it quite a bit when climbing.
18:10:58 <Vorpal> shift is drop down isn't it? I haven't manage to learn climbing yet. I'm currently running around and trying to get used to it
18:11:04 <Vorpal> before I continue further into the story
18:11:47 <kallisti> Vorpal: the way it works on an xbox control is that each of the face buttons loosely correspond to a body part.
18:12:06 <Vorpal> huh weird boxes on the walls here.
18:12:31 <Vorpal> kallisti, hm. Well actually it says e is head in the options for example. But from what I can tell e is just shoot
18:12:34 <Deewiant> It's the same thing on PC, it just works out weirder because they're around the keyboard/mouse instead of 4 buttons (with logical directions like upper = head, lower = feet)
18:12:43 -!- Ngevd has quit (Quit: NEED TO FOOOOCUUUUUS).
18:13:00 -!- Romance has quit (Quit: Client exited).
18:13:17 <Vorpal> kallisti, also a lot of the time I want to climb something (when I'm on the ground and am about to start a climb "sequence") I end up doing a wall jump instead
18:13:21 <Vorpal> what am I doing wrong
18:13:27 <kallisti> you're pressing jump I think
18:13:40 <kallisti> which is also sprint
18:14:00 <elliott> <Ngevd> What would be handy is Text.GEDCOM
18:14:04 <elliott> Yes! That's the broken Mormon standard.
18:14:06 <Vorpal> kallisti, but high profile + space is how you start a climb as well
18:14:06 <Vorpal> but sometimes it does a wall jump instead
18:14:28 <Vorpal> kallisti, maybe it is something in the timing?
18:14:30 <Vorpal> I'm not sure
18:14:37 <Vorpal> it is annoying the hell out of me though
18:14:39 <elliott> Wow, it doesn't actually support recording children not of a marriage?
18:14:40 <elliott> Awesome
18:14:42 <kallisti> I recall having that problem and fixing it by not holding down the sprinty button all the time.
18:14:53 <Vorpal> hm
18:14:58 <Deewiant> Vorpal: Some walls can't be climbed, if the guy has nothing to hang on to at the apex he just jumps off it instead
18:15:07 <kallisti> or rather pressing it impulsively.
18:15:14 <Vorpal> Deewiant, I can climb the wall. It is just it takes like 4 tries
18:15:23 <Deewiant> Also if you let go and then press it again, he jumps on the second press, I think
18:15:28 <Vorpal> hm
18:15:28 <elliott> "The guy", name of all videogame protagonists ever.
18:15:28 <kallisti> yes
18:15:42 <Deewiant> Typically I just hold down both right mouse button and space bar and rarely let go of either :-P
18:15:44 <Vorpal> Deewiant, I'm pressing space firmly for like half a second
18:15:50 <Vorpal> actually tapping it seems to work better hm
18:16:06 <Deewiant> I suggest holding it down until you're sure the guy isn't going to jump
18:16:18 <Vorpal> hm
18:16:26 <Deewiant> So like, three seconds, or something :-P
18:16:30 <Vorpal> that kind of works. Uses the hookblade as well
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18:17:52 <kallisti> I think Assassin's Creed would be much better if they had stopped using Ezio quite so much as the protagonist.
18:18:00 <Vorpal> hm
18:18:01 <kallisti> and continued going to new characters.
18:18:15 <Vorpal> kallisti, didn't one of the games have another guy yeah?
18:18:23 <Deewiant> Yes, the original :-P
18:18:29 <Vorpal> how does the inventory work, can you get encumbered?
18:18:38 <Deewiant> Nope
18:18:44 <kallisti> lol encumbered
18:19:05 <elliott> My only experience with Assassin's Creed is (a) seeing that video of how long it takes to quit and (b) seeing people complain about the two-layer plot thing
18:19:28 <kallisti> "Vorpal, this is Legend of Zelda."  "Cool, it has an inventory. Can you get encumbered?"
18:20:05 <Deewiant> That quitting thing was only in the original, and there was always alt-f4...
18:20:22 <elliott> Deewiant: Alt-F4, the safest method of quitting anything.
18:20:33 <kallisti> yep
18:20:41 <kallisti> stress tested by myself for over a decade now.
18:20:54 <ais523> alt-f4 doesn't quit quite a few things in this computer
18:21:02 <Deewiant> It's safe in programs that tell you when they save data (and actually do it when they tell you they're doing it) :-P
18:21:03 <ais523> it closes the window, but some things keep running even with one of their windows closed
18:21:15 <ais523> Deewiant: well, alt-f4 isn't sigkill or anything
18:21:27 <ais523> on Windows, it's WM_CLOSE, windows are entirely capable of handling or even ignoring that message
18:21:34 <ais523> most word processors do, for instance
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18:22:25 <Vorpal> <kallisti> "Vorpal, this is Legend of Zelda."  "Cool, it has an inventory. Can you get encumbered?" <-- lol
18:22:34 <Vorpal> and yes I typoed that
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18:23:23 <elliott> Wtf guy, you just copied my answer wholesale and reworded it :-(
18:23:36 <Deewiant> ais523: Indeed? Libreoffice doesn't, at least.
18:23:46 <ais523> Deewiant: seriously?
18:23:52 <Vorpal> also hay stacks are apparently magical
18:24:03 <Deewiant> ais523: I just started it and pressed alt-f4 and it went away. :-P
18:24:05 <ais523> Deewiant: sure it doesn't pop up a box "you have unsaved changes, do you want to save them?" or the like?
18:24:11 <Vorpal> there is /no/ way that 50 meter fall or so would have worked with a tiny haystack at the bottom in real life
18:24:12 <ais523> Deewiant: oh, you have to edit the document first
18:24:20 <ais523> it has no reason to interrupt alt-f4 if you just saved
18:24:27 <ais523> or if you never changed the document to start with
18:24:29 <Deewiant> ais523: Well that, of course.
18:24:33 <Deewiant> I thought you meant they ignored it.
18:24:40 <ais523> Vorpal: videogame characters are normally very good at surviving falls
18:24:43 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to [\|-\{}].
18:24:46 <elliott> Is it possible to create an unkillable user-level-permissions Windows program
18:24:57 <elliott> Barring the fancy lower-than-OS-level kernel debugger stuff
18:25:06 <ais523> elliott: I don't think so, the task manager's "end process" option can't be interrupted in any way
18:25:14 <Vorpal> hah yeah
18:25:18 <elliott> ais523: You can stop the user accessing the task manager
18:25:21 <elliott> By covering the whole screen, f.e.
18:25:23 <Deewiant> ais523: It can by being asleep in a syscall though, right?
18:25:27 <elliott> And blocking those key events or whatever
18:25:27 <ais523> elliott: task manager is always on top
18:25:29 <Vorpal> also what made part of the map suddenly display. Oh was that the "viewpoint sync" thing?
18:25:31 <ais523> Deewiant: hmm
18:25:33 <ais523> not sure
18:25:36 <elliott> ais523: OK, by closing any open task manager windows or w/e
18:25:37 <Vorpal> kallisti, ^
18:25:40 <ais523> elliott: hmm
18:25:42 <Vorpal> bbl food
18:25:46 <elliott> I know you can replace Windows' WM too, so that could force the task manager to disappear
18:25:47 <Vorpal> I just hope the game saved...
18:25:50 <elliott> There's blackbox for Windows and everyting
18:25:52 <ais523> presumably the task manager is using some sort of syscall that other programs could use
18:26:07 <Deewiant> ais523: I'm pretty sure I've run into programs that refuse to die even from process explorer's kill (which seems to work better than the task manager in my experience)
18:26:11 <kallisti> Vorpal: yes
18:26:21 <kallisti> Vorpal: that's how you uncover things on the map
18:26:23 <elliott> You could also have e.g. ten processes that keep each other alive
18:26:24 <ais523> Deewiant: wouldn't surprise me, I'm not a Windows expert
18:26:32 <elliott> And make it fast enough that you can't kill them all before they respawn
18:26:37 <ais523> elliott: that's known as a forkbomb, right?
18:26:45 <kallisti> Vorpal: one of the first things I do is go hunting viewpoints. it's strangely enjoyable.
18:26:49 <kallisti> just climbing around the city.
18:26:50 <elliott> ais523: No, constant number of processes
18:26:53 <elliott> Just supporting each other
18:26:56 <Gregor> (Esoteric!) Anybody know of an in-browser Common Lisp REPL?
18:26:57 <ais523> elliott: limited forkbomb, then
18:27:01 <elliott> lol
18:27:10 <ais523> I know I once accidentally crashed a Windows computer by somehow making IE6 into a forkbomb by mistake
18:27:12 <elliott> Gregor: No, but I bet codepad or something has it
18:27:14 <ais523> (that's how buggy IE6 is)
18:27:23 <elliott> Gregor: Common Lisp isn't fashionable enough for that :)
18:27:56 <Gregor> elliott: Yeah, I know, but I just want one piece of information regarding its eval >_>
18:27:58 <ais523> I checked repl.it, but it doesn't have it
18:28:06 <Gregor> Foo
18:28:10 <Gregor> Neither does codepad
18:28:13 <ais523> it does have a few esolangs, though
18:28:37 <elliott> Gregor: apt-get install sbcl
18:28:40 <elliott> sbcl
18:28:42 <elliott> (eval 'x)
18:28:50 <Gregor> Yeah yeah
18:29:01 <ais523> we should have an uncommon lisp and a rare lisp too
18:29:03 <ais523> that are less used
18:29:43 <Gregor> ais523: We do, they're called Racket and [whatever Lisp was for a Lisp machine and had a C compiler]
18:30:06 <elliott> Gregor: Symbolics Lisp Machine Lisp
18:30:07 <Gregor> Nowait, it wasn't a Lisp machine, just a Lisp OS.
18:30:21 <elliott> Gregor: Or Open Genera Lisp :P
18:30:21 <Gregor> Or ... it was?
18:30:27 <elliott> Gregor: ZETA C was for Symbolics machines.
18:30:31 <elliott> Nowait
18:30:31 <Gregor> Oh.
18:30:35 <elliott> TI Explorer
18:30:36 <elliott> Sorry
18:30:41 <Gregor> *brain axplote*
18:30:42 <elliott> Which were Lisp Machines
18:30:44 <Gregor> Well, those are all Rare Lisp.
18:30:51 <Vorpal> kallisti, right
18:30:52 <Vorpal> <kallisti> Vorpal: one of the first things I do is go hunting viewpoints. it's strangely enjoyable. <-- what do they look like in general?
18:30:52 <Vorpal> this one was a minaret thingy with a springboard thingy
18:30:57 <elliott> So, ZetaLisp
18:31:25 <kallisti> Vorpal: tall places
18:31:29 <kallisti> with a thing
18:31:31 <kallisti> that you stand on
18:31:33 <kallisti> that hangs over
18:31:34 <kallisti> the tall thing
18:31:47 <kallisti> ?
18:31:48 <Vorpal> kallisti, the springboard thingy in other words?
18:31:51 <kallisti> yes
18:31:53 <elliott> Deep OH SHIT THAT FUCKER JUST UNACCEPTED MY ANSWER
18:31:58 <elliott> NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO MY REP MY REP
18:32:15 <kallisti> Vorpal: also in previous games I think there was a bird's nest or something above any piles of hay.
18:32:17 <ais523> elliott: calm down, it's just a number
18:32:26 <elliott> ais523: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO MY LIFE IS OVER
18:32:36 <kallisti> Vorpal: so you could escape from a rooftop chase and such.
18:32:42 <elliott> Actually it's mostly annoying because I got votes after hitting the cap that would put me back over 200 but they got eaten by the limit :P
18:33:19 <elliott> wtf, is <(foo) POSIX?
18:33:52 -!- [\|-\{}] has changed nick to copumpkin.
18:34:34 <ais523> coppro: was that previous nick leetspeak? or just nonsensical?
18:34:38 <ais523> if it is leetspeak, I can't parse it
18:34:56 <ais523> or, hmm, now I'm trying to read it as a regex
18:35:01 <ais523> it's correct as a regex, but not particularly sensible
18:35:07 <Vorpal> kallisti, well there are "leap of faith" thingies indicated by pigeons. That end in a haystack
18:35:36 <kallisti> Vorpal: you can find those on non-leap-of-faith thingies as well.
18:35:41 <kallisti> unless that's what a leap of faith is
18:35:43 <kallisti> I don't remember
18:35:50 * elliott waits for ais523 to realise he's an idiot.
18:35:53 <Vorpal> kallisti, btw there is a easter egg in witcher 2. In the prologue there is a dead guy with clothes like the guy in the first assassin's creed game half a meter from a haystack.
18:36:05 <ais523> *copumpkin:
18:36:10 * elliott stops waiting.
18:36:10 <ais523> elliott: it completed as cheater first time
18:36:36 <ais523> and I didn't think it'd get it wrong twice
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18:37:10 <elliott> pumpkin: ITALY?!
18:37:17 <elliott> Good thing you have that cloak to hide that shameful secret.
18:37:20 <ais523> Vorpal: several games with fall damage allow you to cancel the fall damage by doing some sort of move just above the ground
18:37:49 <Vorpal> true
18:38:24 <Vorpal> ais523, for example in terraria there at least 5 ways that doesn't involve the official "cancel fall damage" accessory :P
18:38:31 <Vorpal> two of them are probably bugs
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18:39:14 <kallisti> in super smash brothers there is no fall damage, also you can phase through platforms magically.
18:40:40 <Vorpal> kallisti, strange marker on map, that isn't listed in the legends thingy for the map: like a square rotated 45 degrees and then split into 4 quaters, alternate black and white
18:40:43 <Vorpal> any idea what it is?
18:40:45 <elliott> kallisti: just like in real life
18:44:24 <ais523> elliott: you just need an appropriate sandwich
18:44:26 <elliott> accept my answer accept my answeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeer
18:44:28 <elliott> ais523: :D
18:45:46 <kallisti> Vorpal: I don't remember 
18:45:47 <kallisti> but uh
18:45:52 <kallisti> pretty sure there's a map legend
18:46:03 <kallisti> o
18:46:03 <kallisti> h
18:46:05 <kallisti> uh
18:46:09 <kallisti> probably just some generic marker thing?
18:46:13 <Vorpal> I went there and saw nothing interesting
18:46:13 <Vorpal> kallisti, yes I checked that
18:46:13 <Vorpal> and the icon was not listed
18:46:46 <Vorpal> kallisti, for what?
18:47:29 <kallisti> idk tias lol
18:47:31 <Deewiant> IIRC it's for one of the collectible memory things or something... I'm pretty sure it was in the map legend in one of the previous games :-P
18:48:08 <kallisti> now... what's really an awkward game to control on PC
18:48:11 <kallisti> is Prototype.
18:53:25 <Vorpal> kallisti, the answer is: nothing as far as I can see
18:53:29 <Vorpal> or hm, some beggars?
18:55:26 <Vorpal> ah found it
18:55:40 <Vorpal> it is an "animus data fragment"?
18:55:42 <Vorpal> kallisti, wth are they good for?
18:55:43 <Vorpal> collectibles?
18:58:05 <elliott> oh, it's actually impossible for me to recoup the rep with votes, since I hit the cap with votes... gross
18:58:48 <Deewiant> Vorpal: I think the first N of them unlock the desmond memories on the island you started on
18:59:00 <Deewiant> After that, beats me, probably just collectibles
18:59:26 <Vorpal> Deewiant, ah
18:59:40 <Deewiant> (You can check what N is back on the island)
18:59:52 <Vorpal> the animation when you press tab to get the full screen map is cool the first few times, after that you just wish it was faster...
19:00:22 <Vorpal> I wish I could set a custom compass marker or such to keep track of where I was going
19:00:35 -!- Ngevd has joined.
19:00:45 <Vorpal> "set marker" seems to set it on your current location 
19:00:47 <Vorpal> how useless
19:00:53 <Ngevd> Hello!
19:00:57 <Vorpal> eh wtf now it worked
19:00:59 <Vorpal> whatever
19:02:51 <pumpkin> elliott: yeah
19:02:59 <pumpkin> elliott: I'm a fake italian
19:03:16 <Ngevd> pumpakinno
19:03:18 -!- pumpkin has changed nick to copumpkin.
19:04:45 <Ngevd> copumpakinno
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19:16:11 <Vorpal> Deewiant, question: I have like a thin ledge on a round tower and have to jump sideways to another. How to not fall to ground? (This is in an early mission where you are taught how to use the hookblade)
19:16:21 <Vorpal> I fail at jumping sideways and catch the new ledge bit
19:16:34 <Deewiant> Shift catches
19:16:38 <Vorpal> ah
19:16:45 <Vorpal> nope
19:16:51 <Vorpal> I flew right out and died
19:16:51 <Vorpal> again
19:16:56 <Vorpal> and tried to use shift
19:16:58 <Deewiant> Well, I'm not sure of the situation
19:17:06 <Vorpal> Deewiant, should I hold shift when I start the jump?
19:17:26 <Deewiant> I use shift just as I'm at grabbing distance of the ledge
19:18:08 <Vorpal> hm problem is the tower is round and I seem to jump straight to the side
19:18:14 <Vorpal> so I can never actually get close enough
19:18:30 <Deewiant> Oh, like that
19:18:43 <Deewiant> Whenever you're scaling just one building you never want to jump manually, pretty much
19:18:45 <Vorpal> Deewiant, want me to take a screenshot?
19:19:02 <Vorpal> Deewiant, well I need to move sideways somehow
19:19:02 <Vorpal> but how
19:19:03 <Deewiant> If he doesn't jump automatically by being in high profile and moving to the side, you can't get across that bit like that
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19:19:25 <Vorpal> aha, that works
19:20:02 <Deewiant> Right, don't overthink it :-)
19:20:10 <Deewiant> Most climbing is fairly automatic
19:20:19 <Vorpal> hm
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19:21:08 <Deewiant> Vorpal: See http://www.virtualshackles.com/64
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19:23:18 <Vorpal> also this game is cutscene heavy
19:27:14 <Vorpal> wait what, since when did this turn into tower defense?
19:27:14 <Vorpal> wtf
19:27:16 <Vorpal> defence*
19:27:45 <Vorpal> Deewiant, heh
19:27:53 <Vorpal> Deewiant, I assume the girl is from Mirror's Edge?
19:28:06 <Deewiant> Yes
19:28:18 <Vorpal> which I take it is harder?
19:28:27 <Deewiant> Well, it's a different game
19:29:00 <Deewiant> But that comic /is/ a more-or-less accurate description of the respective difficulties when it comes to the act of climbing a surface
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19:33:01 <Vorpal> WHY did this game just turn into rather mediocre tower defense
19:33:03 <Vorpal> defenceÄ
19:33:05 <Vorpal> defence*
19:33:18 <Vorpal> what did they think... it doesn't belong in the game
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19:33:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Which game.
19:33:57 <Ngevd> Assassin's Creed Revelations
19:34:06 -!- cheater has joined.
19:34:38 <Ngevd> The Tower Defense are much worse than the Just Cause-like segment later
19:34:42 <monqy> something needed defending and they had a few spare towers
19:35:01 <Vorpal> Ngevd, "just cause"?
19:35:04 <Vorpal> hm
19:35:37 <Vorpal> Ngevd, are there more sections like that?
19:36:01 <Ngevd> There's a couple of Burnout-like segments, one of which you'll have already seen?
19:36:08 <Vorpal> Ngevd, burnout?
19:36:14 <Vorpal> I'm not familiar with that game
19:36:16 <oerjan> <kallisti_> elliott: I was replying to a previous statement where oerjan said the ZipList monad should be obvious to anyone who has tried to figure it out.
19:36:30 <Ngevd> Series of console sort-of-racers
19:36:40 <Ngevd> The point is to destroy everyone else's car
19:36:41 <Vorpal> Ngevd, oh right. The cart thingy
19:36:43 <oerjan> it is not entirely impossible i was wrong at that point, and hadn't realized a fix was needed yet
19:36:57 <Vorpal> Ngevd, well okay, that was less annoying than tower defence though
19:37:14 <Ngevd> Yeah, the tower defence is awful
19:40:36 <Vorpal> plus I don't really enjoy the tower defence genre anyway
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19:58:39 * elliott sends off the longest bug report EVAR
19:59:19 <Ngevd> elliott, to whom?
19:59:44 <elliott> Heinrich Apfelmus
20:02:30 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
20:04:22 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:04:47 <elliott> hi oerjan
20:04:52 <oerjan> hi
20:04:58 <Ngevd> Hello.
20:05:14 <oerjan> looks like the router is nearly toast :(
20:05:41 <Ngevd> ...Do you have any butter?
20:05:56 <Ngevd> Or butter substitute
20:06:06 <elliott> oerjan: your ISP will likely offer a replacement if you got it from them
20:06:09 <elliott> unless it's your fault :P
20:06:18 <oerjan> elliott: yes, they were going to send one
20:06:28 <elliott> yay
20:06:30 -!- cheater has quit (Excess Flood).
20:06:38 <elliott> oerjan: failing that you can freeload off my wifi
20:06:42 <elliott> i do not mind.
20:06:46 <Ngevd> What does Excess Flood even mean?
20:06:51 <oerjan> but i'm going to have to continue expecting losing connection several times a day until it arrives
20:06:54 <elliott> it means cheater's client is spamming the server somehow
20:07:06 <elliott> and will likely continue to do so forever, since he's been quitting like that for literal months
20:07:52 -!- cheater has joined.
20:09:06 <elliott> hmm, I suppose in a way it's 260
20:09:20 * elliott rationalisation
20:11:35 <Ngevd> The most recent xkcd isn't very funny
20:11:50 <Gregor> You typo'd there.
20:11:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Ngevd finally catches on.
20:12:02 <Gregor> "The most recent [300 xkcds aren't] very funny"
20:12:10 -!- cheater has quit (Excess Flood).
20:12:12 <coppro> actualy I think the number is somewhere closer to 440
20:12:17 <coppro> bah, typo
20:12:18 <coppro> 44
20:12:30 <Ngevd> I mean, most of the recent ones I can sorta tell how they're meant to be funny
20:12:36 -!- cheater has joined.
20:12:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Ngevd, he seems to have a problem separating things that happen to him from comic material.
20:12:47 <Gregor> pooppy: I was estimating based on ... well, nothing.
20:12:51 <elliott> Gregor: 300 xkcds ago was 696.
20:12:53 <coppro> actually http://xkcd.com/989/ was pretty good
20:12:56 <elliott> You're quite a way off.
20:13:13 <Phantom_Hoover> The xkcdecay was in the 400s, right?
20:13:13 <Gregor> elliott: Yeah, that's well into shit territory. I stopped counting quite a while ago *shrugs
20:13:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Roughly
20:13:32 <elliott> I mean, it's more of a slow decline than anything else.
20:14:03 <coppro> mmhmm
20:14:28 <Phantom_Hoover> 100 comics is time enough for a slow decline, surely?
20:14:36 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, it represents the better part of a year.
20:14:52 <Gregor> When it comes to XCKD, it represents the /worse/ part of a year.
20:14:53 <Gregor> *ba-dum tsh
20:15:02 <Gregor> Why do I keep missing terminal stars...
20:15:20 <Phantom_Hoover> I suppose Ngevd just can't realise when things are terrible.
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20:24:21 <Vorpal> Deewiant, kallisti: how do I reduce the "templar awareness" thingy?
20:24:48 <Ngevd> Bribing heralds
20:25:05 <Deewiant> [something I can't remember], bribe heralds, kill messengers (or whatever they're called)
20:25:13 <Vorpal> Ngevd, can't seem to do that. Do I need to unlock it somehow?
20:25:24 <Ngevd> Can you see a herald?
20:25:26 <Vorpal> or can I only do that above some certain level
20:25:28 <Deewiant> Oh, in the earlier ones the first one was rip wanted posters
20:25:37 <Deewiant> But I never saw any in revelations
20:25:43 <Ngevd> Vorpal, you have been able to do that for two games
20:25:55 <Vorpal> Ngevd, hm what button (on PC)=
20:25:58 <Vorpal> s/=/?/
20:26:01 <Ngevd> No idea
20:26:03 <Deewiant> You can do it above 50% awareness only, I think
20:26:06 <Deewiant> Since it removes 50%
20:26:08 <Vorpal> also this is the only game in the franchise I played
20:26:09 <Vorpal> ah
20:26:14 <Deewiant> I'm not sure though
20:26:19 <Deewiant> It might've been 25%
20:26:24 <Vorpal> Deewiant, any problems with having about 25% awareness?
20:26:31 <Deewiant> It doesn't matter at all until it goes to 100%
20:26:36 <Vorpal> ah
20:26:46 <Deewiant> At that point you get to play more tower defence
20:27:50 <Vorpal> Deewiant, okay I definitely want to avoid that
20:28:30 <Vorpal> Deewiant, are anything in the bookshops worth buying?
20:28:49 <Deewiant> Not IIRC
20:29:12 <Ngevd> Only if you're going for 100%
20:29:22 <Ngevd> And I would buy armour and weapons first
20:30:27 <Vorpal> wow I did the "renovate a shop" and the awareness just rose quite a bit.
20:30:42 -!- azaq23 has joined.
20:30:42 <Vorpal> hm need to find a herald now, and they are not on the map
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20:31:11 <Deewiant> If they're not on the map you can't use them yet, IIRC
20:31:19 -!- azaq23 has joined.
20:31:23 <Deewiant> Not sure though
20:31:26 <Vorpal> ouch
20:31:27 <Deewiant> They might only show up when you're close
20:31:34 <Deewiant> ("yet" = not enough awareness)
20:32:40 <Vorpal> ah
20:33:52 <Vorpal> huh, I have to manage assassins. Come on, this game is awkwardly trying to mix genres
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20:52:05 <oerjan> ais523: there's some wiki spam
20:52:16 <ais523> thanks; I'm in the middle of something but will clean it up later
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20:59:06 <Vorpal> ...
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21:06:23 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> Deewiant, kallisti, Ngevd: is there any in-game explanation for that "eagle sense". I mean I can see no obvious reason why the guy would have such a "magical" thing
21:06:31 <Vorpal> that probably didn't go through
21:07:10 <Ngevd> It's because he's descended from Those Who Came Before
21:07:38 <Vorpal> I guess that makes more sense later on?
21:07:53 <Deewiant> You really should play all the games in order :-P
21:08:02 <Ngevd> I've never played the first...
21:08:05 <Deewiant> Or at least watch the endings to all the previous ones, I guess
21:09:49 <Vorpal> Deewiant, meh
21:09:50 <Vorpal> Deewiant, I want the best graphics available
21:10:26 <Deewiant> Congrats, you're a superficial person
21:10:30 <Vorpal> heh
21:10:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Use small, articulated models.
21:10:50 <Vorpal> Deewiant, who?
21:10:57 <elliott> back
21:11:04 <elliott> <Vorpal> Deewiant, meh
21:11:04 <elliott> <Vorpal> Deewiant, I want the best graphics available
21:11:04 <elliott> <Deewiant> Congrats, you're a superficial person
21:11:09 <Vorpal> Deewiant, anyway I'm not sure I like the game enough to even play it to the end.
21:11:15 <elliott> Deewiant: When I said "standard" I actually meant "standard and HI-DEF"
21:11:23 <elliott> Vorpal's revised definition of fun.
21:11:29 <Ngevd> http://notalwaysright.com/stop-and-stair/12288
21:11:59 <Vorpal> elliott, that doesn't even make sense
21:12:06 <Phantom_Hoover> He knows what he likes, and he likes his glossy rocks.
21:17:22 * Phantom_Hoover notes that the Cave Story+ Wii trailer has at least one significant spoiler in it.
21:18:51 <monqy> :(
21:23:42 <Vorpal>  
21:23:44 <Vorpal> eh
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21:48:25 <Ngevd> I really need to get around to reinstalling Ubuntu
21:53:27 <Ngevd> Goodnight
21:53:30 -!- Ngevd has quit (Quit: Goodbye).
21:54:02 <elliott> At 22:00?
21:54:34 <zzo38> Oops! Did you mean 25:00?
21:55:02 <elliott> Yes, thanks.
22:23:13 <zzo38> Do you have nothing against hard games?
22:23:37 <zzo38> And hard computer games too?
22:25:19 <elliott> I hate hard computers.
22:25:42 <monqy> i only compute if they squish to the touch
22:26:23 -!- madbr has joined.
22:26:41 <oerjan> a good computer is a gas
22:27:20 <zzo38> I made the file of the complete texts of Super ASCII MZX Town
22:27:39 <zzo38> Tell me what you can learn or guess or confuse from such things:      http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/misc/ascmzxto_texts.txt
22:29:10 <zzo38> (Despite "* UNREGISTERED ** Press F1 for help, Enter for menu", no registration is required. It is a memory artifact from the old DOS MegaZeux)
22:29:20 <madbr> "*This* music: Microsoft
22:29:22 <madbr> "
22:29:28 <madbr> canyon.mid? :D
22:29:40 <elliott> fizzie: Pls make fungot model ^
22:29:40 <fungot> elliott:. i'm so kind, even to assholes! anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov
22:30:19 <monqy> .?
22:30:30 <zzo38> madbr: No. It is the secret music in Windows 95 (you need to make a folder on the desktop and rename it to various things, and then when opened it plays music), converted from MIDI to MOD format.
22:30:56 <oerjan> one can only guess what torturous horrors anmaster did to fungot.
22:30:56 <fungot> oerjan: or is it just me, or i: yet, you rogue! and if you wish! we shall hold this position to the last man! big fire where lavos fall from sky! we
22:32:23 <madbr> zzo38: maybe you should've asked the dudes in espernet #mod_shrine to make you a song :3
22:32:53 <zzo38> madbr: Yes I could have done. I didn't know about that one.
22:33:12 <elliott> oerjan: made it put a . after its colon without a space
22:33:48 <Sgeo> There's an interpreter for Funciton in C#
22:33:48 <oerjan> elliott: gruesome!
22:33:57 <Sgeo> Wonder if it can be ported to Haskell >.>
22:35:26 * Sgeo walks away quickly
22:36:34 <elliott> You don't "port" C# code to Haskell, you rewrite it.
22:36:59 <madbr> seen worse
22:37:03 <madbr> c++ to js
22:37:19 <monqy> eh?
22:37:34 <zzo38> Do you know if there are MML compilers that can output MOD or S3M or XM formats?
22:37:52 <quintopia> i've never heard of mml
22:37:53 <madbr> zzo38: never seen that no
22:38:22 <madbr> zzo38 : seems like a weird idea since mod/s3m/xm is easier to write than MML in first place
22:38:31 <madbr> imho
22:38:41 <zzo38> Maybe to you it is.
22:39:11 <zzo38> I know about one MML compiler which seems to be very good with some good features, called SakuraMML, but it is only for MIDI and does not work on my computer.
22:40:07 <madbr> I've seen MOD to NES or SNES converters but not the other way around
22:40:46 <madbr> except maybe snex9x mod output but that was really rough
22:41:14 <quintopia> i assume you mean music macro language
22:41:22 <quintopia> no music markup language
22:41:32 <zzo38> Yes, I mean music macro language
22:41:44 <madbr> quintopia: yeah the one used by japanese chiptuners
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22:43:23 <madbr> zzo: you mean sakuraMML does mml->midi or midi->mml?
22:44:08 <quintopia> zzo38: you should make one
22:44:25 <zzo38> madbr: It does MML -> MIDI
22:44:41 <zzo38> quintopia: OK, maybe I will make it
22:45:48 <madbr> hm
22:45:48 <quintopia> which has the most features/capabilities? of IT,S3M,MOD,XM, and MML?
22:46:06 <madbr> they're kinda orthogonal
22:46:14 <zzo38> quintopia: It depends on the MML variant being used. Different programs have somewhat different MML variants
22:46:38 <madbr> mod etc are sample based
22:46:43 <quintopia> so there isnt one that encompasses the abilities of the others?
22:46:57 <madbr> MOD was originally the format of an AMIGA music routine
22:47:08 <madbr> that was popular because it had a nice tool
22:47:23 <madbr> S3M is a mod extension
22:47:30 <madbr> XM is a mod+s3m extension
22:47:38 <madbr> IT is a mod+s3m+xm extension
22:48:18 <madbr> s3m/xm/it came from PC programs so they have progressively more channels and features etc
22:48:34 <zzo38> Some idea I have, is how I could use some compressions such as the compiler figuring out where to add loops, change speeds when notes have a lot of empty frames between them, and so on.
22:50:02 <madbr> zzo38: s3m/xm/it already have a compression scheme that doesn't save blank space
22:50:22 <zzo38> madbr: I know; I read the format specification.
22:50:40 <madbr> so speed change isn't useful except for like MOD
22:50:54 <Vorpal> Deewiant, how do I take over a den?
22:51:09 <madbr> you could do the loops but you're probably a lot better off just zipping the MOD
22:51:11 <Vorpal> Deewiant, I'm at the den's location, and I see no prompt or such
22:51:25 <Deewiant> There's an early mission that shows you how
22:51:40 <Deewiant> Climb to the tower and light the fire
22:51:48 <Deewiant> After killing the leader
22:51:49 <Vorpal> Deewiant, I press shift and nothing happens
22:51:52 <Vorpal> ah the leader
22:51:53 <Vorpal> right
22:51:57 <Vorpal> I probably missed that
22:52:01 <Vorpal> oh well, time to find him
22:52:02 <madbr> zzo: is there a variant of MML that outputs to some kind of sampler?
22:52:15 <zzo38> madbr: I don't know.
22:52:30 <madbr> If yes you could probably do mod/etc->MML
22:53:21 <Vorpal> Deewiant, any hint on finding the leader?
22:53:23 <zzo38> I want to input MML, output some format.
22:53:48 <madbr> Guess you could do your own MML->IT converter
22:53:52 <Deewiant> Vorpal: Eagle vision, highlighted in gold IIRC
22:54:30 <Deewiant> Or, if you want to do it manually: clearly more "officer-looking" than the others, usually in a patrol with some others
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22:55:14 <madbr> zzo38: with some system for compiling in sample data
22:55:20 <zzo38> Actually it look like, empty rows are still included in S3M file, 0=end of row there seem no skip rows command.    gopher://zzo38computer.cjb.net:70/0textfile/music/s3m-form.txt
22:55:42 <zzo38> madbr: Yes. My idea is to have two ways: One way is reference external file, second way is to enter the mathematical formulas for them.
22:55:44 <Vorpal> Deewiant, I might have killed the guy without identifying him. Did I just bug the game?
22:55:47 <madbr> zzo38: there's a "pattern delay" effect too
22:56:09 <madbr> zzo38: going to be hard to make a snare out of mathematical formulas!
22:56:11 <Deewiant> Vorpal: No, that's fine.
22:57:03 <madbr> ah but yeah you could use a formula
22:57:04 <madbr> I see
22:57:33 <Vorpal> Deewiant, it says the den is in hiding :/
22:57:39 <Vorpal> and I should wait until tomorrow
22:57:40 <Vorpal> wtf
22:57:56 <Deewiant> Ah, hmm, I wonder if that's what happens if the leader is a coward-type and you let him get away
22:58:05 <Deewiant> Never let that happen myself so beats me
22:58:07 <Vorpal> Deewiant, that could have happened
22:58:26 <Vorpal> well at least I got the view point
22:58:31 <madbr> zzo38: guess it could work
22:59:53 <madbr> zzo38: I bet most formulas would just get you FM synthesis stuff :D
23:02:44 <Vorpal> Deewiant, the tunnel system is annoying, in how you select the destination from a list rather than allowing you to click directly on the map icon for that on the map that is shown right next to the list!
23:03:28 <Deewiant> Yep
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23:11:20 <Vorpal> the game just froze, dammit
23:11:41 <Vorpal> and I died as a result
23:12:19 <elliott> rip
23:12:49 <Vorpal> you just restart at last checkpoint
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23:14:27 <zzo38> You roll the dice. You rolled zero.
23:14:52 <zzo38> You found a talking tree.   Tree: O! Suddenly I learned speeching English!!
23:15:00 <elliott> :D
23:15:53 <zzo38> These are some of the texts in this game. There is no checkpoint; you can make save game file at any time and have multiple save files (highly recommended)
23:16:14 <zzo38> Do you know about Washizu Mahjong game?
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23:19:11 <zzo38> Or about computer game?
23:19:23 <zzo38> I have Akagi DS game, it include Washizu Mahjong as well.
23:20:31 <zzo38> Make your own game based on these texts and see if they are difference?
23:20:44 <Phantom_Hoover> "I still maintain the point that designing a monolithic kernel in 1991 is a
23:20:44 <Phantom_Hoover> fundamental error.  Be thankful you are not my student.  You would not get a
23:20:44 <Phantom_Hoover> high grade for such a design :-)
23:20:44 <Phantom_Hoover> (Andrew Tanenbaum to Linus Torvalds)"
23:20:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Fortune has made me hate Tanenbaum now.
23:22:59 <zzo38> Did you know? MEDIUM_SIZE_MONSTER is bad and evil but BIG_MONSTER is good so BIG_MONSTER can help you to beat MEDIUM_SIZE_MONSTER too, in this game.
23:23:17 <zzo38> Can you find the beam-me-up-scottifier?
23:23:40 <zzo38> Remember! All Nice Ring Don't Free.
23:24:23 <zzo38> Do you require a life-size model of the Earth because a normal globe is not big enough?
23:26:32 <elliott> Yes.
23:26:37 <elliott> In fact I need it to be larger-than-life.
23:45:00 <elliott> [Haskell-cafe] On the purity of Haskell 
23:45:00 <elliott> By Chris Smith - 3:30pm - 15 authors - 55 replies
23:45:04 <elliott> oh nooooooo
23:45:10 <elliott> "Warning - it may look like trolling at various points. Please keep going 
23:45:10 <elliott> to the end before making a judgement."
23:45:12 <elliott> oh nooooooooooooooooooooooo
23:51:40 <elliott> Argh, people are promoting the State World model of IO in this thread.
23:53:48 <zzo38> State World model?
23:54:47 <Vorpal> Deewiant, that game locks up a lot...
23:55:01 <Deewiant> Never for me IIRC
23:55:28 <elliott> People like to claim that IO a is defined like RealWorld -> (a, RealWorld), because GHC's definition resembles this (actually it's State RealWorld# -> (# a, State RealWorld #)), but this isn't true at all; the "State" parameters are actually tricks to stop the compiler reordering operations in GHC, and are eliminated at compile-time; as a formal model, it can't handle tons of IO things, such as concurrency.
23:55:48 <elliott> Also it's a ridiculous model anyway since a Haskell program blatantly can't just send back a new real world to replace the current one with.
23:56:00 <zzo38> Then try to play my games instead, in case it don't locks up a lot?
23:56:14 <Vorpal> I'm not interested in those genres
23:57:09 <zzo38> elliott: Actually I think it is (State# RealWorld) not (State RealWorld#) and as far as I know they are abnormal types in many ways
23:57:18 <elliott> zzo38: Err, right, yeah
23:57:39 <elliott> They just exist so that the compiler thinks each action depends on the previous being evaluated so it doesn't reoder things, I believe
23:57:50 <zzo38> Yes, I think so
23:57:51 <elliott> The (->) being used is actually the arrow of /impure/ functions there
23:59:13 <zzo38> What method of scoring do you prefer at five pin bowling?
23:59:40 <elliott> I, er, don't.