00:00:14 <kallisti> and you could think of the set of morphisms as a sort of mapping right?
00:00:40 -!- cswords_ has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:00:43 <kallisti> hom-set or whatever it's called.
00:00:59 <kallisti> is a mapping... or a relation I guess.
00:01:13 <oerjan> well yes, Hom is a bifunctor from any category to Set
00:01:56 <oerjan> er locally small category, technically
00:03:02 <kallisti> hom(C)... is a mapping right? it maps objects to objects in the category, right?
00:03:19 <kallisti> hom(a,b) refers to the morphisms specifically between objects a and b.
00:05:18 <oerjan> kallisti: i cannot find your hom(C) concept on the wp Morphism page
00:05:32 <zzo38> And I think you can make a category from any digraph, where the objects are the nodes and the morphisms are the walks
00:05:37 <kallisti> A class hom(C), whose elements are called morphisms or maps or arrows. Each morphism f has a unique source object a and target object b.
00:05:49 <kallisti> it's on the category theory page.
00:05:59 <kallisti> so anyway I think I got the answer to my question, which is "no"
00:06:05 <zzo38> So it is a different category than Haskell functions category
00:06:05 <kallisti> but I don't know if I worded it correctly.
00:06:45 <kallisti> basically the relation from C to C formed by hom(C) does not have to be a one-to-one mapping, is what I was asking.
00:07:22 <oerjan> kallisti: i still don't know what relation you are speaking about
00:07:39 <kallisti> a morphism... is basically like an ordered pair, right?
00:08:38 <oerjan> what makes it _similar_? two morphisms can have the same source and target, and still be different.
00:08:41 <zzo38> kallisti: Well, I gave one example. There are others
00:09:00 <kallisti> oerjan: oh really? how does that work.
00:09:12 <kallisti> as far as I knew morphisms were just a source object and target object pair.
00:09:40 <zzo38> kallisti: No. One example is the digraphs like I said, another example is different functions between the types like in Haskell or in the category of sets
00:09:55 <kallisti> right, but then how is that constructed.
00:10:30 <zzo38> By morphism composition.
00:11:01 <oerjan> kallisti: well commonly a morphism in Set may be a triple, (A,B,f) where A and B are the source and target and f : A -> B is a subset of A x B which is a function.
00:11:52 <oerjan> A and B are included just to ensure the target and source maps really are defined. (actually A may be redundant.)
00:12:39 <kallisti> so then morphisms in Set are relations.
00:13:02 <oerjan> kallisti: no, functions, but in set theory functions are represented as relations.
00:13:28 <oerjan> iirc Rel is the category of all relations
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00:13:54 <oerjan> of which Set is a subcategory
00:14:13 <kallisti> Phantom_Hoover seemed baffled that I would see "subset of A x B" and somehow think "relation"
00:15:40 <oerjan> well i was a bit baffled too
00:15:54 <kallisti> I guess I didn't pay enough attention to the "which is a function" part :P
00:16:03 <oerjan> it's like the most elementary CT fact that the morphisms of Set are functions :P
00:16:54 <oerjan> it's like the quintessential example of a category.
00:17:25 <kallisti> your mom is the quintessential example of a category.
00:17:51 <oerjan> although one does need to spend a while afterward pointing out that there are categories in which morphisms have nothing to do with functions.
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00:18:21 <kallisti> I just temporarily forgot that all relations are not functions and saw the "subset of A x B" and thought relations...
00:18:29 <engree> yeah there are no relations that are functions :P
00:18:48 <kallisti> ...that's not what I meant by that statement
00:18:56 <oerjan> engree: has anyone seen em around?
00:19:24 <oerjan> i have doubts e would be able to stay undetected
00:19:46 <engree> oerjan: well the usual route appears to be via #haskell
00:19:46 <kallisti> what exactly is preventing Set morphisms from being relations?
00:20:13 <oerjan> kallisti: the fact that non-functions are not included in Set morphisms by definition.
00:20:16 <engree> oerjan: but we know he quit all forums, at least programming-related, for an extended period of time after the first or second time it happened.
00:20:42 <zzo38> Then can you make a relation set category?
00:20:48 <kallisti> oerjan: that's not very interesting. why not just add it to the definition. I was wondering if it would break something.
00:20:50 <engree> oerjan: I wouldn't be surprised if the two-time "revelation" of eir identity after returning was enough to make that permanent.
00:21:11 <engree> oerjan: cpressey did comment on eir blog ages ago; but it's completely dead.
00:21:24 <oerjan> kallisti: erm as i said Rel is a different category, which also exists
00:21:29 <kallisti> are you using spivak pronouns for ironic purposes.
00:21:38 <kallisti> oerjan: right but that's the category of relations..
00:21:50 <engree> I do not know which pronouns fax prefers.
00:21:52 <oerjan> kallisti: also for not being bloody sure what gender e actually _is_
00:22:05 <oerjan> or what sense of is to use
00:22:19 <pikhq> I could've sworn fax was male, but that could just be heuristic talking.
00:22:22 <engree> http://reddit.com/user/cwcc is still around, but e abandoned that one long before disappearing completely; eir later accounts have been deleted.
00:22:43 <engree> pikhq: I believe e identified as male while using the name fax.
00:22:56 <pikhq> Also not very reliable if e has changed the preferred set of pronouns.
00:23:00 <kallisti> oerjan: or well... is Set the "category of functions" then? You seem to be saying that Rel is the alternative category for a category on sets with relations as morphisms.
00:23:14 <engree> oerjan: oh my god, cwcc posted in /r/vortexmath
00:23:21 <oerjan> kallisti: you simply let the objects be sets and the morphisms be (A,B,M) where M is a subset of A x B. (again A and B are just included to ensure they're well-defined source and target)
00:23:27 <zzo38> Once I found a computer program try to guess your gender if you answer a lot of questions. However, after answering all of the question the certainty was still zero so it couldn't guess.
00:23:59 <engree> oerjan: but yeah, I somewhat doubt we'll see em around any time soon: at least not recognisably.
00:24:00 <oerjan> kallisti: well Set has an important special standing in the theory.
00:24:03 <kallisti> oerjan: Rel is kind of misleading as I would expect the objects to be relations or something.
00:24:22 <kallisti> oerjan: so there are properties of Set that would break if it were suddenly Rel.
00:24:25 <engree> oerjan: but I still hope we do.
00:24:46 <monqy> engree: /r/.....vortexmath..............
00:25:13 <engree> monqy: It's TEDx-approved, man.
00:25:37 * pikhq shall slightly reduce ambiguity in the room by simply stating the common Internet heuristic of "forall x. male(x)" applies to pikhq in both gender identity and chromosome set. :P
00:25:41 <monqy> VortexSpace.org College of Vortex Mathematics
00:25:46 <oerjan> kallisti: presumably. the yoneda lemma is one important theorem that comes to mind (and which i don't remember exactly.)
00:26:20 <pikhq> kallisti: Yoneda remma
00:26:22 <engree> pikhq: Chromosomes aren't necessarily an indicator of biological sex, though.
00:26:37 <engree> pikhq: (But nothing is, since it's in large part a cultural concept rather than one that has a precise biological definition...)
00:26:51 <pikhq> engree: Bah. My biological sex is also male. There. Happy?
00:27:08 <pikhq> (no, of course not, nothing makes you happy. :P)
00:27:15 <engree> I am an endless pool of sadness.
00:27:26 <kallisti> yoneda lemma in ignorant-american-pronunciation kind of sounds like a really slurred way of "yo, need a lemma?"
00:27:41 <pikhq> Not just pool of sadness. Also unobtainable desires.
00:29:21 <oerjan> pikhq: ah but have you actually _done_ a cromosome test? >:)
00:29:34 <pikhq> oerjan: No, actually.
00:29:44 <pikhq> So I can only infer that with high probability.
00:30:17 <kallisti> not on par with the rigour of #esoteric
00:30:37 <oerjan> for example, i have verified scientifically that i am a bacterium.
00:30:38 * kallisti smokes his pipe and sits in his esoteric armchair.
00:30:54 <pikhq> oerjan: Science also only infers things with (unreasonably) high probability. :)
00:31:03 <oerjan> well, either that, or the test tube was contaminated, but how likely is _that_
00:32:13 <kallisti> I think defenestrate is one of my favorite words.
00:32:52 <kallisti> because a) it sounds good b) it has at least three possible meanings c) one of which is a verb meaning "to remove Windows from a computer"
00:33:06 <kallisti> along with the other two meanings
00:33:20 <kallisti> makes the word even more awesome than simply the sum of its possible meanings.
00:33:26 <kallisti> it's like a PRODUCT of its meanings.
00:34:59 <engree> oerjan: what do you want from a next generation log formatting system. gimme your best
00:35:30 <pikhq> Or perhaps the product of the ^^^3 of its possible meanings. :P
00:37:43 <kallisti> engree: every output format you could possibly think of including various serialization formats, typesetting systems, markup languages, word processor formats, pdf. it should also have a special tagged format which it can use to generate output formats
00:38:01 <kallisti> so for example you could make an output of only a subset of tags (for IRC this would be things like privmsg, join, part, etc)
00:38:16 <kallisti> also a utility to convert raw text to the tagged format via regex filters.
00:38:35 <zzo38> You could just use AWK to do some of these things isn't it?
00:39:14 <oerjan> engree: total information recall, line wrapping and free money.
00:39:15 <kallisti> probably, but not as easily I would think.
00:39:41 <oerjan> also wild sex parties.
00:40:55 <oerjan> engree: oh, and maybe it should understand the color codes.
00:41:10 <kallisti> engree: the house format could also contain a header specifying default formatting options when none are provided for the output formatter.
00:41:20 <kallisti> engree: no this should be general to any kind of log, not just IRC.
00:41:25 <engree> oerjan: I would like to build in auto-linking functionality; how would you suggest I do this? I was thinking of not formatting links specially at all until you mouse over them, to avoid annoying highlights of non-links
00:41:32 <engree> since URLs are rather easy to spot visually in the first place :P
00:41:49 <engree> kallisti: i will take your requests into... consideration
00:42:14 <lahwran> do you have nick coloring on?
00:42:51 <lahwran> well then what I was going to say is irrelevant
00:43:00 <lahwran> do you have time-sorted tabcomplete on?
00:43:10 <lahwran> (was it you I mentioned it to the other day?)
00:43:51 <kallisti> engree: strangely I don't believe you.
00:44:50 <kallisti> at least TeX, XML, HTML, and maybe PDF would be good.
00:44:55 <engree> lahwran: Yes, I do, and yes, it was; I've used it forever, I just reinstalled my OS recently.
00:45:43 <lahwran> might as well tell you my random fact about nick coloring anyway - apparently it works by summing the character values in the nick and then modulo-ing them by the count of available colors
00:45:53 <lahwran> not by any real hashing function at all
00:45:57 <engree> the stupidest algorithm i can think of
00:46:11 <engree> i guess that's why people complain about collisions so much
00:46:19 <kallisti> but for A TRULY FLEXIBLE LOG FORMATTER you want to have a special format for representing logs that can be easily converted to from raw text, and a simple style specification to allow styling of different tags regardless of output format.
00:46:26 <engree> oerjan: THX FOR FEEDBACK
00:46:31 <engree> kallisti: We already have a simple raw log format.
00:46:40 <engree> http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/2012-01-03-raw.txt
00:47:00 <lahwran> well it's kinda funny because I've kinda assigned my own mild stereotypes to different nick colors
00:47:05 <zzo38> Would you have SIRCL format? And possibly CSV format?
00:47:14 <lahwran> and it turns out, there actually might be some real relationships between them
00:47:26 <kallisti> needs JSON and YAML as well. :P
00:48:20 <zzo38> O, yes. And for TeX, you need to have both Plain TeX and LaTeX. But possibly, just have one format which it can read in and then a macro file can format it. I have done things like this; for example, you can make a macro to read a tab separated file, and so on
00:48:33 <engree> Generic data formats are vastly overrated anyway, since all the common ones are not nearly rich enough to describe all data without additional parsing logic that will approach the complexity of just writing your own format.
00:49:11 <zzo38> I designed SIRCL format for IRC logs probably just use that and then convert into others using AWK or Perl
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00:50:19 <kallisti> engree: XML comes close I guess.
00:50:45 <engree> kallisti: To describing all data? No way.
00:51:39 <kallisti> well... can it do referential structures?
00:51:59 <zzo38> What if you use, something such as, Haskell Data Notation?
00:52:10 <kallisti> or does your definition of "all data" include things like an infinite sequence of fibonacci numbers.
00:52:17 <engree> kallisti: To be exact, I was not saying you cannot represent data in those formats.
00:52:27 <engree> I said that doing so requirse a separate parsing/serialisation step to fit the restrictions of those formats.
00:52:34 <engree> Which approaches the complexity of just writing your own format in the first place.
00:53:12 <kallisti> zzo38: Haskell data structure notation would not be very good for describing structures with references.
00:53:23 <kallisti> included the = operator as well
00:53:42 <engree> You just need let...in to describe sharing.
00:54:56 <engree> http://www.cs.vu.nl/~x/ this guy has the coolest name
00:54:57 <kallisti> one issue with such a format is that it isn't quite as convenient as JSON for many languages.
00:55:06 <kallisti> similar problems to what XML has I guess.
00:55:19 <kallisti> with JSON you can basically just convert it directly to some native data structure.
00:55:50 <kallisti> Haskell's tagged unions and such are not quite so convenient in.. say.. Perl.
00:56:39 <engree> JSON's unstructured soup isn't convenient in... say... Haskell.
00:56:56 <engree> At least a stupidifying step is more palatable than an enrichening one.
01:00:39 <kallisti> I'd say handling JSON data and handling a Haskell-like format would be equally difficult in Haskell.
01:00:53 <kallisti> which is to say not difficult at all.
01:01:02 <lambdabot> forall a. (Read a) => String -> [(a, String)]
01:01:20 <zzo38> You can make up some format and parse it using Parsec, it works well
01:01:23 <kallisti> oh yes I forgot about Read, but then you need the type information as well.
01:01:59 <engree> kallisti: Yes... you need to know the structure of some data to consume it.
01:02:11 * engree would not use this proposed Haskell format anyway.
01:02:23 <kallisti> engree: at compile time, to read it like that. yes.
01:02:32 <engree> "Instead of bothering with the actual universe, let us create our own imaginary universe in which there are only three classes of animals: birds, cats, and dogs."
01:03:38 <kallisti> well Haskell's data structures are basically just tagged unions and structs...
01:05:50 <kallisti> sure the types make a huge difference at compile-time, but unless you want to have existing type libraries for every kind of data you read, you're probably going to want the data type information to be stored in the format itself and interpreted at runtime.
01:06:04 <kallisti> which means that you basically just have tagged unions, structs, and let bindings.
01:06:37 <kallisti> (with syntax sugar for strings and lists, and integer and character primitives)
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01:20:02 <augur> has this channel really only existed since november 06?
01:22:36 <engree> freenode's systems get replaced more often than this channel stops existing :)
01:27:02 <zzo38> Do you have suggestion to have substitute player for Dungeons & Dragons game in case some of the players are not available?
01:27:31 <pikhq> zzo38: DMPC is ever a classic.
01:27:45 <zzo38> pikhq: He said he doesn't want to do that?
01:28:33 <pikhq> Hmm. Figure out a way to write certain players out of the story, for sure...
01:28:44 <zzo38> Yes; of course I thought of that already.
01:29:13 <pikhq> A few options from there: deal with missing members, find people to come in and play a game or two (and roll new characters), have some of your players play multiple characters...
01:29:33 <zzo38> I am one of the players
01:29:39 <pikhq> The last option may be sanity-straining, of course.
01:29:51 <zzo38> And there is one other player only, who is unavailable
01:29:56 <pikhq> I was, nevertheless, talking in a more general sense. :)
01:30:26 <zzo38> There are only two players, only two player characters.
01:31:41 <zzo38> engree: The DM said he doesn't like that; I did suggest that, as well as having the DM have their own player character too, and this stuff.
01:32:06 <pikhq> I'm a bit surprised at having so few PCs.
01:32:15 <pikhq> The "standard" D&D party is, like, 4...
01:32:45 <pikhq> And I've not really heard of fewer people in a party.
01:32:47 <zzo38> I know; but we play the game strangely
01:33:08 <zzo38> There are varying number of NPCs in the party sometimes
01:33:22 <pikhq> The only way you could play the game genuinely strangely is to play it by a strict reading of the rules. :P
01:33:32 <zzo38> There are other strange things about the party too; read the recording file for information!
01:33:56 <zzo38> view-source:http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/recording/level20.tex
01:36:06 <zzo38> Currently we have two human NPCs which are navy marines
01:37:00 <zzo38> Will you have ideas about it by reading this?
01:37:09 <pikhq> Perhaps; lemme take a look.
01:38:05 <pikhq> Hmm, what macro set are you using to generate that? Something you wrote yourself?
01:38:27 <zzo38> Yes, it is a macro set I wrote myself: view-source:http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/recording/dungeonsrecording.tex
01:41:36 <pikhq> Also, doesn't appear to work with pdftex.
01:41:47 <pikhq> Works just fine with tex, though.
01:45:19 <zzo38> Yes; just use TeX it is not intended to work with pdfTeX.
01:45:42 <zzo38> So I don't care whether or not it will work with pdfTeX
01:46:10 <zzo38> I also don't know why, but it doesn't matter
01:47:30 <pikhq> I suspect pdfTeX has a few macros in place beyond what TeX offers that collide.
01:48:47 <zzo38> Note this document uses a command to request input from the terminal; I don't know if pdfTeX has problems with that somehow
01:49:24 <zzo38> The \askprintinglevel asks you how much you want to be printed, 1 is the shortest printout and 6 is the longest printout.
01:49:46 <pikhq> *That* much worked just fine.
01:50:38 <zzo38> Well, it doesn't matter; you can still get DVI output, and if you want PDF you can use an external program to convert DVI to PDF.
01:51:58 <zzo38> If you ever play D&D 3.5 edition, you can use this same macro file if you want to record them in the computer.
01:53:22 <zzo38> During the game, we have never actually decided the actual number of Also's sausages even though we should have done; so I just made up some numbers
02:04:56 <zzo38> Are either of these two files good to you?
02:08:10 <pikhq> Quite impressed with the macros.
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02:26:42 <MDude> I think an AI could be made to play D&D, though it'd likely end up a mix of blind stat crunching and often inhoherent text generation.
02:27:37 <pikhq> Proof: the set of video games with D&D as their game rules.
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02:28:28 <MDude> Well those have computer controlled monsters/NPCs, that's not really the same as AI pseudo-players.
02:28:52 <zzo38> They still aren't perfectly D&D regardless of their rules
02:29:07 <pikhq> zzo38: They're reasonable approximations, IME.
02:29:33 <pikhq> The only major divergence is the switch from rounds to real-time action.
02:29:50 <MDude> A D&D video game would be a neat use of the AI director from Left4Dead.
02:30:36 <MDude> Though all it knows how to do is swarm you with zombies.
02:30:53 <zzo38> No, they are entirely different than a proper role playing game. The closest computer games to a proper role playing game would be a text adventure game, although even that is not close.
02:33:09 <pikhq> I was discussing the mechanical aspects alone, of course.
02:33:23 <pikhq> The play experience is certainly *dramatically* different.
02:33:32 <pikhq> What you want for that is not AI players but an AI DM. :P
02:34:41 <zzo38> Mechanical aspects can be made very close but even then, with the various possible exceptions, although you could still make a card game or computer game out of them without the exceptions, it might still make a workable game.
02:37:09 <engree> @tell Vorpal https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBd9c1gAqWs
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02:47:10 -!- Jafet has joined.
02:54:57 <Jafet> I use a pro client
03:00:50 <engree> Jafet: you can identify with server passwords on freenode :P
03:01:03 <engree> <password> :<account name>
03:04:17 <Jafet> My pro client takes care of that flawlessly
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03:14:04 <engree> * Jafet (~Jafet@149.171.48.81) has joined #esoteric
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03:14:12 <engree> Jafet: For sufficiently wrong definitions of flawlessly
03:14:58 <Frooxius> hmm some spambot changed the front page of the wiki probably
03:16:29 <Frooxius> oh thanks too, I was poking for a link about how to write a page and look at some existing ones
03:19:37 <engree> don't worry about adding anything too rough formatting-wise, it'll get cleaned up in a day or two
03:20:14 <Jafet> engree: The last minor release of this client left parted usernames in the user list
03:20:46 <engree> Jafet: Why the fuck are you using Pidgin
03:20:47 <Frooxius> okay, I'm making a page about my language(s)
03:21:29 <Jafet> Why do you seem upset that I use it?
03:22:13 <engree> Jafet: No, just amazed
03:22:22 <engree> I don't know a single person who can stand Pidgin's IRC support :P
03:24:16 <Jafet> I don't care enough to change it
03:27:36 <zzo38> Now they have The Mod Archive - Lite.
03:34:30 <pikhq> Just sanity checking: given a value in m^2 and a conversion factor in USD/m, there is no way to get a meaningful value in USD, right?
03:35:54 <Frooxius> is it okay if I copy things I wrote about the language from my webpage or do I have to rephrase it? Do I have to put some "public domain" disclaimer on my webpage if I'm going to just copy it?
03:36:15 <pikhq> Frooxius: Just be aware that the version on the wiki is public domain.
03:37:07 <pikhq> (source: I read the copyright section of the USC a few years back.)
03:37:33 <Frooxius> But that public domain doesn't apply to the language itself? As in, the documentation on my site, binaries, sources and such (besides examples that I post on the wiki)?
03:37:43 <pikhq> It only applies to the text on the wiki.
03:38:16 <pikhq> We genuinely don't care about the license on anything else, except to note that it's *courteous* to place your code under a FOSS license of some sort.
03:39:02 <Frooxius> The examples of the language you mean?
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03:39:12 <pikhq> No, I mean your implementation.
03:39:25 <pikhq> What's placed on the wiki must be public domain (as a matter of policy).
03:40:16 <Frooxius> Oh... Hmm, I never really thought about licenses. I haven't released the sourcecode yet, only Windows and Linux binaries, though I'll put the code there later too
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03:45:55 <pikhq> Also, FWIW, the FOSS license being courteous thing is not specific to #esoteric, that's a community norm pretty much everywhere outside of corporations.
03:46:56 <engree> well, and windows users :P
03:47:15 <pikhq> engree: Saying "community" automatically excludes them. :P
03:48:21 <Frooxius> Oh boy, now you're all going to hate me *hides under a rock*
03:48:45 <pikhq> "Pity" is the correct term.
03:48:55 <engree> Windows users. I've heard of those!
03:49:06 <engree> I read about them in a book.
03:49:18 <engree> (The rock represents capitalism.)
03:49:21 <Frooxius> Yeah, we're rare, like a fairy!
03:50:22 <pikhq> I prefer my schemes for economic distribution to be more handwavey!
03:50:32 <pikhq> (no, fiat money is not handwavey enough!)
03:50:39 <Frooxius> But but but I thought about you and I made Linux binaries as well! *puppy eyes*
03:51:22 <pikhq> No, you made (presumably) x86 glibc on Linux binaries.
03:52:05 <engree> if you have an architecture-independent libc-independent linux binary i'll eat my hat :P
03:52:06 <pikhq> (this isn't me being all GNU/X/Gnome/Linux-y, just being pedantic about specifying the ABI)
03:52:37 <Frooxius> Well the standard C++ code can be compiled into whatever you want x3
03:52:46 <Frooxius> Even a donut. That you can eat instead of a hat.
03:53:21 <engree> pikhq: he did say he was releasing the sources
03:53:28 <Frooxius> After I figure out these licenses though x3
03:53:54 <Frooxius> Which is basically why I haven't released it yet, I was sort of avoiding it
03:54:40 <pikhq> BSD or GPL (there's more choices, but why consider others? The BSD-alikes are effectively identical, the GPL-alikes have significant disadvantages from being nowhere near as popular as GPL)
03:55:32 <Frooxius> I guess he GPL one, though are there more versions? Also, do I have to put it in all source code files?
03:55:44 <engree> BSD is probably a better choice (<-- NOT BIASED)
03:55:51 <engree> You just have to put it in a file you include with the sources.
03:56:01 <engree> Usually it's called LICENSE (although COPYING is the standard name for the GPL).
03:56:25 <engree> pikhq: Pfft, real programmers tri-license their code Mozilla Public License/Artistic License 1.0/CC by-sa-nc
03:56:26 <Frooxius> oh cool, I was afraid I have to put this GPL comment blob of text I see in some sources *giggles*
03:56:27 <pikhq> Yeah, BSD is perhaps the simplest, and certainly with the best understood consequences.
03:56:45 <zzo38> Make it in public domain if you don't care about licenses.
03:56:49 <pikhq> Frooxius: The GPL comment blob is nothing but a courtesy, and one that few people *care* about.
03:57:03 <pikhq> zzo38: In many jurisdictions that's impossible.
03:57:12 <engree> zzo38: Assuming public domain is valid in your country and the countries of those who wish to use your software...
03:57:13 <zzo38> Yes, that is why you have WTFPL
03:57:32 <pikhq> And it's ambiguous in the US, but only slightly.
03:57:54 <Frooxius> okay, thanks, I'll look into it, don't worry, I don't intend to have it closed source, I like the idea if someone actually might be interested into doing something with it x3
03:57:55 <pikhq> (it's either really public domain or licensed under terms precisely identical to what you can do with it under the public domain, near as I can tell)
03:58:20 <engree> pikhq has yet to contradict my SUPERB licensing advice which nobody should follow.
03:58:36 <pikhq> engree: Jesus that is the worst combination of licenses doable.
03:58:43 <pikhq> I mean, CC by-sa-nc? The *fuck*?
03:58:57 <engree> It's technically just CC by-nc-nd, though, no sa :P
03:59:24 <pikhq> That only makes it worse.
03:59:48 <engree> pikhq: I forget, is normal multi-licensing union or intersection?
03:59:49 <zzo38> I often use GPL or public domain. But use BSD if you prefer
04:00:16 <Frooxius> hmm, I used Qt for the GUI though
04:00:22 <engree> pikhq: Well, this is none of those; this is under the xor of all those licenses. A term applies iff only a single license in the set has it.
04:00:45 <engree> Frooxius: Qt is LGPL these days, so you're fine licensing your program with anything
04:01:14 <zzo38> You could just license your program also under LGPL like Qt is, then, if you want
04:01:19 * engree would suggest http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIT_License#License_terms if you don't really care, for what it's worth; it's the simplest of the BSD-derivatives and widely used.
04:01:31 <zzo38> You can use MIT license too, yes that work also
04:01:34 <Frooxius> Though GUI isn't really necessary, the emulation core works by itself
04:01:49 <engree> It's nicer than BSD3 because it doesn't have a bulleted list. :p
04:01:55 <pikhq> engree: Normally it's select a set, actually.
04:01:57 <engree> Or, hmm, that list is actually numbered.
04:01:57 <Frooxius> As in, it doesn't depend on the Qt libraries at all
04:02:08 <engree> pikhq: Yeah, well, xor licensing is the new thing.
04:02:10 <pikhq> You have to comply with at least one license in its entirety, which license that is is up to you.
04:02:28 <zzo38> Frooxius: If you want, you could either move the GUI into a separate source file, or allow someone else to make those changes if someone else want to do so
04:03:02 <Frooxius> It is separate, I just #include it in the Qt project
04:03:18 <Frooxius> well, the headers and the static library
04:03:41 <pikhq> So, the GUI is basically a seperate program.
04:03:56 <pikhq> Still you're fine licensing your program with anything.
04:04:07 <engree> You should give the GUI away for free and sell the emulation core for $5,000/seat.
04:04:56 <zzo38> I think you should make the emulation core open sourced and the Linux GUI also open sourced, but sell the Windows GUI for $100 each
04:05:36 <Frooxius> And sell the roasted assembler-cores $500/bucket :D
04:06:39 <Frooxius> *crunch crunch crunch* mmmmm... tasty *crunOUCH* A syntax error!
04:08:04 <MDude> I like zlib just because it has a cooler looking name.
04:12:58 <Frooxius> Though the GUI code is horrible, because it was my first Qt app x3 And I didn't have enough time to learn it first on examples, so I was learning a lot when working on it.
04:19:22 <zzo38> Or just license it entirely under the LGPL
04:19:48 <zzo38> Or BSD, MIT, GPL, WTFPL, public domain
04:19:57 <zzo38> You shouldn't use Creative Commons licenses for software
04:44:18 <zzo38> Their FAQ even says the same thing. Also, they are incompatible with software licenses. You should use a proper software license to ensure compatibility.
04:44:41 <zzo38> Extra resources of software, such as graphics, sounds, and so on, can be licensed using Creative Commons.
04:44:42 <shachaf> engree: I knew it was you.
04:46:59 <pikhq> I generally find it easy to pick up on elliott's various nicks. He's just very identifiable.
04:47:22 <zzo38> I find it easy to simply see "!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott" you can know just from that
04:47:46 <pikhq> I tend not to see that.
04:48:40 <zzo38> I think a most common IRC clients hide that
04:48:56 <pikhq> Mine doesn't hide it, I just don't see him join.
04:49:27 <shachaf> I mean that I just came to my IRC client and switched to #esoteric.
04:50:41 <zzo38> Mine shows it with every message
04:51:04 <pikhq> Oh, right, yours is a UI for the IRC bytestream.
04:51:21 <zzo38> And syntax highlighting and a few other things
04:55:13 <zzo38> What is the best way in Haskell to check existence of a file?
04:56:04 <engree> zzo38: Don't, just try and use it and catch the error.
04:56:20 <engree> (My answer to http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8502201/remove-file-if-it-exists-in-haskell goes into some detail about that and why.)
04:59:14 <zzo38> I try to implement to find file in search path specified by environment variables.
04:59:20 <zzo38> What is the best way of that?
04:59:52 <engree> zzo38: Iterate through each path you think it might be in; try and open it for each of them, and catch the exception for it not existing and continue.
05:00:29 <engree> zzo38: Writing openFileIfItExists :: FilePath -> SomethingMode (I always forget the name) -> IO (Maybe Handle) will get isolate the exception-handling boilerplate.
05:01:59 <zzo38> I should use the <|> for IO and fold using <|> maybe
05:03:03 <zzo38> At least it is one way.
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05:03:50 <engree> zzo38: That's probably a bad idea; you only want to catch does-not-exist exceptions, not anything else that might go wrong.
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05:19:01 <engree> http://www.reddit.com/user/Iosethos i don't understand........
05:19:32 <engree> hmm, redditor for six hours.
05:19:43 <monqy> is that the losethos guy
05:19:55 <engree> http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/o0bkh/iama_ratt_tshirt/
05:20:11 <engree> http://i.imgur.com/RmFpI.jpg <-- one of his submissions, wtf (don't click that)
05:20:29 <engree> "I went to the hardware store and asked that it was the “urgent” number. I called her when got by yesterday and today I got home today, I hoped it was a song by Falco is a rare medical condition."
05:20:33 <engree> a song by falco is a rare medical condition
05:20:49 <engree> holy shit look at the speed he's posting
05:21:08 <engree> i mean obviously the text is machine-generated
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05:21:25 <engree> monqy: http://soundcloud.com/footnotegal/sets/the-first-transaction-was/
05:21:40 <engree> he submitted this to... /r/mylittlepony... wtf losethos guy, wtf
05:22:42 <engree> http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/o0bkh/iama_ratt_tshirt/c3de006 oh good someone else recognises him
05:23:02 <engree> http://www.reddit.com/user/losethos
05:23:15 <monqy> http://www.reddit.com/user/Iosethos with an I
05:23:28 <engree> i was thinking that was a bit too perfect
05:24:51 <engree> http://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/o0p7d/to_still_be_soaked_with_detergent/ ah, the halcyon days of youth, when we were soaked with detergent
05:25:40 <Frooxius> hmm... how do I make a thumbnail though? I can't seem to figure it out >.< I tried looking up syntax, but nothing seems to work
05:25:59 <engree> Frooxius: thumbnail for what?
05:26:07 <engree> if an image, http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Images might help
05:26:34 <engree> [[blah|thumb|caption]] basically
05:26:38 <engree> and you can omit the |caption
05:26:47 <engree> and blah is Image:blah
05:27:28 <Frooxius> yeah, I was looking at that... oh no wait... that's something a bit different, the one I saw had syntax "thumb="
05:31:32 <engree> We need more Deadfish interpreters in esolangs. monqy: You get on that.
05:33:14 <engree> Frooxius: Hey, didn't you say your interpreter was in C++? I can write C++ too: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Deadfish#C.2B.2B_templates :D
05:34:27 <monqy> are there any decent esolangs left
05:35:02 <engree> monqy: Underload, although admittedly it lacks input
05:35:27 <monqy> hm, I don't know intercalle
05:35:31 <Frooxius> There's an assembler/compiler that makes a machine code for the processor architecture. That can be either fed to the VHDL implementation (not available/finished yet) or ran in the emulator (virtual machine sort of )
05:36:23 <engree> Frooxius: ah, you program in both C++ and VHDL... which circle of hell did you learn programming in?
05:37:09 <Frooxius> I'm mostly self educated. I poke around for some books and such and play with it.
05:37:20 <Frooxius> You mean, that I should rather work with Verilog? x3
05:38:05 <engree> Nope, they're just two unbearable languages of torture and pain :P
05:38:41 <Frooxius> Says the esolang enthusiast? :D
05:39:29 <engree> At least we don't claim they're usable :)
05:40:27 <Frooxius> Well then... this calls for... HELLO WORLD in attoassembly x3 http://data.solirax.org/attowpu/helloworld.att
05:40:47 <engree> Wow, someone added a language to the list and didn't mess up the alphabetic order.
05:40:52 <engree> This has to be some kind of record.
05:41:12 <engree> Frooxius: Reminds me of Redcode, though probably not for any decent reason.
05:41:48 <Frooxius> here's my implementation of Pong in AttoASM :D http://data.solirax.org/attowpu/Pong.att
05:43:26 <Frooxius> Why would I publish something that doesn't work?
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05:43:56 <monqy> ask the people who publish things that don't work
05:44:27 <Frooxius> oh, I might need a people-who-publish-things-that-don't-work detector though
05:46:35 <Frooxius> hmm, I don't really have nice video of it (you can try it yourself later though), but there's at least something: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=mqTjj_7e51s#t=236s
05:46:52 <engree> monqy: should i do good thing or stupid thing
05:46:57 <Frooxius> It's from an high-school expo where I presented it, earli... oh it's 2012... earlier last year
05:47:02 <monqy> a good stupid thing
05:47:16 <engree> Frooxius: looks like pnog to me!!
05:47:29 <Frooxius> That pong is running there in the simulator
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05:58:23 <pikhq> "An affect can effect an effect that affects."
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06:09:54 <engree> hey pikhq how long can human beings stay awake, what does science say
06:10:35 <Frooxius> at least that's the record I think
06:11:04 <engree> ok there may be hope for me
06:15:07 <pikhq> What you actually *want* is the the time before you start hallucinating, though.
06:15:23 <monqy> but the hallucinations are fun
06:16:55 <monqy> also the surreal feeling, involuntary movements
06:18:23 <engree> pikhq: what's that then
06:19:43 <coppro> engree: actually not that long
06:19:53 <coppro> you hit microsleeps pretty quickly comparatively
06:20:14 <pikhq> Yeah, don't microsleeps start from ~24 hours?
06:21:07 <engree> well not universally i'm sure
06:21:15 <engree> obviously the point is that you don't notice them
06:21:27 <engree> but i've functioned normally and very sharply at 40 hours
06:22:06 <pikhq> I have managed to notice them, but only from noticing "WTF a few seconds slipped".
06:22:32 <coppro> engree: how much drugs?
06:23:02 <coppro> I don't use drugs; usually I max out around 30 hours
06:23:07 <engree> coppro: every drug, man. (no drugs)
06:23:08 <coppro> and that's on a good day
06:23:10 <engree> the 40 hour thing was just once
06:23:13 <coppro> engree: I include caffeine
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06:23:36 <engree> but i'm pretty sure the effects are negligble on me nowadays
06:23:41 <engree> and i don't drink any more when sleep-deprived
06:23:58 <engree> coppro: consider that a common schedule for me is sleeping approx. every 26-30 hours
06:24:11 <engree> i guess i'm just lucky!
06:24:27 <engree> every 30 hours but like
06:24:31 <engree> after 26-30 hours of wakeness
06:25:47 <coppro> engree: are you peter barfuss?
06:26:06 <engree> i'm not sure; probably not
06:26:18 <engree> it depends on who peter barfuss is
06:26:55 <coppro> peter barfuss is an undergrad at my school known for, among other things, massive sleep deprivation. At his worst, I believe he had a week where you could count the number of hours of sleep on one hand
06:27:24 <engree> nice, but i don't do the napping thing, with me sleep deprivation is followed by sleeping 14 hours+
06:27:49 <engree> i'm pretty sure my natural melatonin levels are abnormally low for some reason
06:28:13 <coppro> I've hit 18 hours of sleep after massive deprivation
06:28:52 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure holy fuck I feel bad
06:28:55 <Vorpal> 7:30 and still pitch black outside
06:28:55 <lambdabot> Vorpal: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
06:29:03 <lambdabot> engree said 3h 51m 53s ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBd9c1gAqWs
06:29:07 <Vorpal> I hate Swedish winters
06:29:08 <pikhq> engree: I'm sick and complaining about it.
06:29:18 <engree> Vorpal: Dude... that can happen in the UK too :P
06:29:26 <pikhq> Especially as I'm already sleep-deprived and now can't sleep well
06:29:42 <engree> pikhq: Me too! Well, the sleep-deprived part. But it's only 6:30, so there's a chance I'll hop to bed.
06:29:45 <Vorpal> engree, well sure, but it will be the same 10:00 too
06:30:05 <engree> Not sleeping would be an excellent opportunity to realign both my sleep schedule and my dwindling Stack Overflow reputation spree, though!
06:30:35 <engree> coppro: bonus fun sleep fact: the only way i can rebound into a decent schedule is by waking up at inconvenient times twice in a row
06:30:43 <Vorpal> @tell elliott Impressive. But a pretty basic scene. I wonder if it would make use of SSE and so on to speed up computations. I saw a ray tracer in C written to use SSE to compute multiple line intersections at once
06:31:07 <pikhq> Vorpal: engree == elliott
06:31:19 <engree> engree actually sent that message
06:31:24 <Vorpal> I read it as elliott somehow
06:31:41 <Vorpal> I guess it is because I know we talked about the topic before
06:32:00 <engree> coppro: wake up at 16:00 -> sleep at next 16:00 -> wake up at midnight -> sleep at 18:00-20:00 -> wake up at 04:00 -> sleep at midnight -> wake up at reasonable hour
06:32:12 <engree> Vorpal: well, repa does automatic parallelisation
06:32:18 <Vorpal> engree, that one never worked for me
06:32:20 <engree> I don't think GHC does SSE though
06:32:25 <Vorpal> I'm in the wakeup at midnight phase now
06:32:51 <engree> Vorpal: the code is actually really readable: http://code.ouroborus.net/gloss/gloss-head/gloss-examples/Ray/
06:33:00 <pikhq> Vorpal: Better than the wakeup at noon phase, I guess?
06:33:05 <Vorpal> engree, more readable than C with SSE? Of course
06:33:14 <Vorpal> pikhq, that is standard.
06:33:16 <engree> Vorpal: yeah, but it's even pretty idiomatic
06:33:20 <Vorpal> pikhq, I usually wake up after noon :P
06:33:23 <engree> pikhq: god no waking up at noon is amazingly perfect
06:33:28 <engree> if i could wake up at noon every day i'd be so happy
06:33:33 <pikhq> engree: Yes, *I* think so.
06:33:44 <pikhq> Unfortunately a few billion people seem to disagree.
06:33:56 <Vorpal> engree, adding SSE gives you an edge. I saw basically that + some CSG + antialias in real time being done
06:34:05 <Vorpal> not sure the haskell code could scale up to that
06:34:18 <pikhq> Vorpal: Being editable by a non-madman counts for more.
06:34:19 <engree> Well, there's no real obstacle to GHC donig SSE.
06:34:24 <engree> It just hasn't been implemented yet.
06:34:36 <Vorpal> pikhq, certainly. But I always had a soft spot for the crazy demoscene :P
06:35:02 <engree> Vorpal: And the code could possibly benefit from it without being changed. It doesn't contain a single mention of parallelism, after all, and it still scales to the quad-core machine it was run on.
06:35:23 <Vorpal> engree, I believe the code I was referring to used OpenMP + SSE
06:35:54 <Vorpal> engree, openmp is actually quite easy to use. Still it does mention parallelism indeed.
06:38:07 <pikhq> I thought I saw someone working on getting the automatic vectorisation to work with OpenMP...
06:38:14 <pikhq> Might just be misremembering, though.
06:38:39 <Vorpal> maybe, I don't think it was used in the code in question though
06:38:54 <pikhq> Though in principle it could be.
06:39:10 <pikhq> Much like in principle you could execute a C program on the Deathstation 9000.
06:39:27 <Vorpal> pikhq, actually the program in question was portable between gcc and msvc
06:39:35 <Vorpal> which is pretty impressive if you use intrinsics
06:40:30 * Vorpal decides to try out the current technic pack for minecraft
06:40:38 <Vorpal> amazing mod pack back during 1.7.3 at least
06:40:44 <Vorpal> haven't really used it since then
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06:56:52 <engree> monqy: hi, should i sleep,
06:58:41 <engree> monqy: what does, a mean,
07:01:29 <monqy> or wait until the tired becomes painful
07:01:40 <monqy> or until you run out of things to do that are not sleep
07:01:55 <monqy> or until you slip unconscious
07:04:47 <engree> i like the cut of your jib, let me give you an offer u cant refuse (i will kill you if you refuse)
07:05:01 <engree> and you make sure i get the SO rep I need by the time i wake up
07:09:58 <engree> monqy: have you found out yet
07:14:49 <zzo38> Control.Monad.Trans.Error defines MonadPlus IO but not Alternative IO and anyways their instance is wrong
07:15:12 <zzo38> I think they should allow override instances!
07:15:30 <zzo38> I wrote some ideas in my user space in Haskell Wiki
07:18:21 <shachaf> What the Haskell wiki needs is more notation.
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07:19:27 <shachaf> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/User:Zzo38/Proposal_for_instance_disambiguation
07:19:52 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes that one is the one I meant
07:27:25 <Vorpal> argh the key mapping in minecraft gets annoying when you have tens of mods
07:27:41 <Vorpal> and there is of course not a single interface to configure them all
07:28:00 <fizzie> Maybe when they finally add that modding API...
07:28:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, doubt that will ever happen
07:28:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, besides there are key bindings in the settings menu I can't access because they go under the "done" button
07:28:42 <Vorpal> zombe do it by config file
07:29:00 <Vorpal> rei's minimap does it using it's own config dialogue
07:30:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, currently I'm trying to get technic pack + several freestanding mods to play nicely
07:30:15 <Vorpal> it works apart from conflicting keys atm
07:30:53 <fizzie> $ ./testlm-disk.pl ../twungot/tokens.bin.irc ../twungot/model.bin.irc 3 programmers do it with
07:30:53 <fizzie> programmers do it with objects. is that a cartesian product function that i want to
07:30:53 <fizzie> programmers do it with lookahead and the whitespace cset. but please, be patient: i have some
07:30:53 <fizzie> programmers do it with exceptions as a control and assume that the answer to your question is "is it because you think you _need_ unwind-protect?"
07:31:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, also I found a better version of TMI, called NMI
07:31:43 <fizzie> Perhaps short for "set of characters".
07:32:02 <fizzie> Non-maskable interrupts are a better version of too much information?
07:32:03 <Vorpal> I suggest switching to NMI, especially if you have lots of mods
07:32:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, too many items also typoed NEI as NMI
07:32:35 <Vorpal> because that is not enough items
07:32:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, the in game inventory editor
07:32:44 <Vorpal> useful when testing things
07:33:05 <Vorpal> NEI supports searching rather than having like 40 pages due to mods
07:33:25 <zzo38> The MonadPlus IO in Control.Monad.Trans.Error is the wrong one!!!!!!!
07:33:25 <Vorpal> and you can use it to look up recipes as well
07:33:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, by turning off cheating mode
07:35:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, not sure if you play with many mods though, apart from optifine I presume
07:36:04 <fizzie> Not really. I tried out a few bits from that zombe thing.
07:36:50 <fizzie> I haven't really done any Minecrafting since about September, anyway.
07:37:34 <kallisti> it happens quite frequently that I'll go to bed after staying up all night
07:37:38 <kallisti> and then... wake up 4 hours later.
07:37:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, I use techic pack (IC², Buildcraft, Redpower + a lot more smaller mods), NEI, zombe's flying and sun control, worldedit CUI, single player commands (for worldedit support in single player) and of course optifine
07:37:47 <Vorpal> actually looks like optifine is part of technic nowdays
07:38:21 <Vorpal> redpower especially adds a /lot/ of blocks
07:38:27 <Vorpal> due to combinatorial explosion
07:39:19 <Vorpal> like you can make panels, halfblocks and what not out of most vanilla blocks
07:42:09 <Sgeo> kallisti, there may have been an update I forgot to notify you about
07:48:11 <Vorpal> ouch ouch ouch, minecraft coloured lights are done using multitexturing. This is so wrong.
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07:48:28 <Vorpal> as in torchlight vs. sunlight
07:50:58 <fizzie> 1.8 changelog: + Rewrote the light rendering to use multitexturing instead of direct colors
07:51:53 <Vorpal> which is a nasty way to do it
07:52:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, it makes it much harder for mod authors to add their own lights of various colours
07:53:12 <fizzie> That's not surprising in general, either, since the existing light colour scheme is just "two dimensions, skylight and blocklight == torch", no matter how it's implemented.
07:53:26 <fizzie> You could easily make all torches green, though. :p
07:53:38 <Vorpal> but not add green, red and blue torches
07:55:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, why doesn't minecraft just use the phong model for all the available light sources. It could even drop the specular light calculation, which is probably the most expensive part
07:55:28 <Vorpal> since mc has not specular light
07:55:42 <fizzie> It wouldn't be as "retro".
07:56:13 <Vorpal> come on, mc dropped retro the day it implemented smooth light
07:56:47 <fizzie> That was someone else's idea, though, and optional in any case.
07:57:00 <Vorpal> well that stuff isn't around any more
07:57:29 <fizzie> Isn't it still toggleable? (I certainly haven't looked.)
07:57:39 <Vorpal> I don't think so, can't check atm
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08:05:32 <fizzie> Does the current lighting code do shadows for block light sources? For skylight it does, that much I remember. I suppose it does some sort of custom light-spread for blocklight too.
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08:08:25 <myndzi> maybe somebody here can answer this one
08:08:43 <myndzi> i took some source which was released under the MIT license and significantly modified it
08:08:58 <myndzi> wtf do i do to be all proper about things but still own my modifications?
08:19:00 <fizzie> It's not a copyleft license or anything, so as far as I know you're free to distribute your modified version under a license as restrictive as you want, possibly as long as there's a sentence like "includes code from libfoo, which you can get from libfoo.com, licensed under the following terms: [copy of their copyright notice + MIT license statement]." But I'm certainly no lawyer.
08:20:47 <myndzi> yeah, i don't actually care about the license but i intend to make the source available and I want to "do right"
08:20:55 <myndzi> there are lots of these licenses that allow you to take and use and modify the code
08:21:14 <myndzi> do i just add a copyright notice? how do i specify that "my changes are everywhere" lol
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08:37:57 <fizzie> If you're going to MIT-license the result, I would think you can just put in "Copyright Myself" + MIT license "permission is granted + no warranty" statement + based on/derived from the FunkyCode, copyright TheirName. Though I've also seen people just do "Copyright Myname" + "Copyright TheirName" + same license terms.
08:38:39 <fizzie> E.g. RTMPDump-YLE does it like that, http://fador.be/yle/README.rtmpdump-yle + then their COPYING file in the distribution includes the GPL text, plus "json-c has the following license: [json-c's MIT license text]".
08:38:40 <myndzi> i'd have thought it would be easier to find an answer for this
08:39:01 <fizzie> (Of course whoever wrote RTMPDump-YLE probably wasn't a lawyer either.)
08:39:06 <myndzi> like, a well-known and "official" kind of answer ;)
08:39:38 <myndzi> i mean, it's just words in many ways so i suppose i can write whatever i want that doesn't violate the existing license, i just wondered if there was a proper or standard way and couldn't find it
08:39:41 <myndzi> so now i want to find more :P
08:40:09 <myndzi> i mean, the author said to me in e-mail "i don't really care, you can do whatever you want" hehe
08:41:11 <Jafet> Copyright Jafet 2009..2012. I don't have any money to hire a lawyer, so you can use this source code in any way you like and I probably won't ever sue you. No warranties expressed or implied.
08:41:48 <myndzi> i got a kick out of the WTFPL license
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09:02:17 <Frooxius> Look, I implemented simple colored snow animation in my language 2DASM for 2DWPU architecture http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnzaXvF7p7o Here's the source: http://data.solirax.org/2dwpu/colorsnow.2da It's WIP though |3
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09:05:48 <zzo38> I made up a big number, according to these functions of natural numbers, where ^ means exponent and ! means factorial and ; separates the definitions.
09:06:51 <zzo38> f(0,0) = 1; f(x,0) = x^f(x-1,k(x,x!)); f(x,y) = x!+k(y^f(x,0),y^f(x,y-1))
09:07:24 <zzo38> k(x,0) = 2^h(x,0); k(x,y) = (x+y)^k((xy)^(xy),y-1)
09:07:54 <zzo38> h(0,0) = 1; h(x,0) = p(h(x-1,p(x))); h(x,y) = p(h(x,y-1))
09:08:02 <zzo38> p(x) = x'th prime number; p(0)=1
09:08:20 <zzo38> q(x,0) = f(x,0); q(x,y) = f(q(x,y-1),q(x,y-1))
09:08:28 <zzo38> Big number = q(2,q(2,2))
09:09:07 * Jafet waits for zzo's new exciting result in Ramsey theory.
09:09:15 <zzo38> How large is it, what is its one's digit, what is its most significant digit, how does it compare to other big numbers, and etc?
09:10:36 <zzo38> Is it larger or smaller than: Skew's number, Moser's number, Graham's number, and XKCD's number?
09:11:59 * Sgeo is tempted to put it in Haskell
09:12:44 <zzo38> I worked it a bit on paper and as far as I know the computer probably won't be able to complete the calculation
09:21:39 <Vorpal> <zzo38> p(x) = x'th prime number; p(0)=1 <-- I thought 1 was not a prime number?
09:22:02 <Vorpal> because then there wouldn't be unique factorizations into prime numbers
09:22:25 <zzo38> I know 1 is not a prime number.
09:22:41 <zzo38> But p(0) has to be defined anyways so that is its definition I put
09:23:15 <Vorpal> <zzo38> I worked it a bit on paper and as far as I know the computer probably won't be able to complete the calculation <-- depends on how you represent it?
09:23:30 <Vorpal> it looks like too much work though
09:23:50 <Vorpal> anyway, if you worked on it in a CAS you might be able to find something out
09:24:13 <Vorpal> zzo38, I assume it is super-exponential then?
09:24:29 <Vorpal> hm there is ! in there, so I'd go with probably
09:30:03 <zzo38> Already after expanding f(2,0)=2^f(1,4^((4^4+1)^(2^(h((4^4)^(4^4),0))))))
09:30:50 <zzo38> Already (4^4)^(4^4) is 256^256 which is more than googol.
09:33:05 <Vorpal> Frooxius, is that 10^(10^100) or? I don't remember
09:33:54 <Vorpal> mathematica says that 10^(10^100) > 256^256 is True, but it gives a warning about overflow
09:34:11 <Frooxius> I don't really know the math around these expansions and such, I guess I'll have to read something more later ^^
09:34:47 <Vorpal> but then that is a fairly small level of expansion of zzo38's function
09:35:29 <Vorpal> thing that annoys me greatly in windows 7: I can't find a way to open the right click menu for the currently open directory without going up a level above it and right clicking it
09:35:46 <Vorpal> I'm currently working with shell integrated version control system, so I really really want that feature
09:36:15 <Frooxius> Right clicking in the empty space doesn't work? Or did I misunderstand you?
09:36:40 <fizzie> Vorpal: 256^256 = (10^log10(256))^256 = 10^(log10(256)*256) ~ 10^616; it's quite clear 10^(10^100) is bigger than that.
09:36:41 <Vorpal> hm I tried to right click the icon for the folder in the corner of the window. That worked under xp
09:36:45 <zzo38> Did you try right-clicking the icon in the title bar? That works in older versions of Windows.
09:37:06 <Vorpal> zzo38, that is the thing that /doesn't/ work any more
09:37:14 <zzo38> Did you try using the File menu?
09:37:37 <zzo38> In my computer, which is XP, selecting the File menu has one submenu labeled with the name of the current directory.
09:37:50 <Vorpal> ah the option for tortoisehg is under there, good
09:37:54 <Vorpal> right under the file menu
09:38:00 <Vorpal> which is btw hidden by default
09:38:05 <Vorpal> until you set a folder option thingy
09:38:19 <zzo38> Pushing alt should make it display the menu even if hidden
09:38:35 <Vorpal> (I really prefer linux, windows would be okay with a usable shell, and no powershell is a joke)
09:39:15 <Vorpal> wait what, can't hg handle empty directories? Or is it just this shell extension being stupid?
09:39:43 <zzo38> Yes, Linux is better. But in Windows, the standard command prompt is OK for some things, and so is Windows Explorer; you can get a UNIX command line by using Cygwin.
09:39:58 <Vorpal> cygwin is kind of broken iirc
09:40:06 <fizzie> "After it deletes a file, it then deletes any empty directories that were in the deleted file's path. This sounds like a trivial distinction, but it has one minor practical consequence: it is not possible to represent a completely empty directory in Mercurial."
09:40:38 <Vorpal> and there is no tortoisebzr, and I'm /not/ using svn
09:40:39 <fizzie> Git works the same way, unless I misremember.
09:41:13 <fizzie> You can put a placeholder file in.
09:42:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, not really in this case though. Meh
09:43:17 <Vorpal> also tortoisehg has some problems with tracking the correct state for the icon overlay. More so than tortoisesvn even
09:43:26 <Vorpal> and that had some issue with it
09:43:58 <fizzie> A dummy .gitignore/.hgignore is something I've seen in "empty"-but-we-want-them-to-exist directories.
09:45:10 <Vorpal> I have no control over the software that might try to read the directory in question so I'd rather not confuse it, I'll just make sure to add the directory once any files does get added to it
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11:20:20 <Patashu> Regex question, how do I alter this regex: ^(\w++) gets a (.*?)$ so if in the (.*?) part there is the word 'and' it doesn't match
11:20:27 <Patashu> I figure something to do with lookarounds? but can't figure out what
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11:26:39 <fizzie> "Doesn't match" is often not-so-easy for regexen. I mean, you *can* of course just replace (.*) with ((?:(?!and).)*) and that (seems to) work, but it's anyone's guess how inefficient that is; esp. compared to just matching and then testing whether $2 contains "and".
11:29:17 <fizzie> !perl @a = ("foo gets a bar", "foo gets a bar and baz"); for (@a) { print "$_ => "; if (/^(\w+) gets a ((?:(?!and).)*?)$/) { print "match: ($1) ($2)\n"; } else { print "no match\n"; } }
11:29:17 <EgoBot> foo gets a bar => match: (foo) (bar) \ foo gets a bar and baz => no match
11:30:04 <Patashu> I can just test in LUA after the regex matches
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11:31:38 <fizzie> Also I doubt whether the ? does nothing; you're already using the possessive ++ "eat and never backtrack", and the match is anchored at the end with $, so I don't see how the (.*) part can do anything else except match all the way to the end, no matter if it's greedy or not.
11:31:56 <Patashu> it probably doesn't do anything, no
11:32:03 <Patashu> it's just there because the regex generator put it there for me!
11:33:14 <Patashu> it's interesting seeing what kind of regexes are pathological and what aren't
11:34:41 <fizzie> ((?!foo).)* sounds like something that at least a commonly stupid regex engine would implement in the rather bad "check for a 'foo' substring at each position" way.
11:36:31 <Patashu> would the pearl regex engine implement that in the bad way?
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11:36:40 <Patashu> b/c that's what mushclient uses
11:37:53 <fizzie> From what I've heard, it's not uncommonly smart.
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11:49:10 <oerjan> 01:01:01: <engree> :t reads
11:49:10 <oerjan> 01:01:02: <lambdabot> forall a. (Read a) => String -> [(a, String)]
11:51:48 <oerjan> > runStateT (replicateM 3 $ StateT reads) "1 2 3 4" :: [([Int], String)]
11:52:30 <fizzie> Patashu: http://sprunge.us/fdXW -- well, that doesn't look excessively smart. Though I guess it's possible the debug mode inhibits some optimilizations.
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12:11:17 <oerjan> <engree> pikhq: Well, this is none of those; this is under the xor of all those licenses. A term applies iff only a single license in the set has it.
12:11:30 <oerjan> that's not xor, xor means an odd number
12:11:59 <oerjan> it's addition (mod 2), after all
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12:29:20 <oerjan> <engree> if i could wake up at noon every day i'd be so happy <-- i woke up and noon today *MWAHAHAHA*
12:33:30 <HackEgo> lot verted praxinde ttensent diviot volute prote int esse antisscn sgthconstrefe darade reffe runcharmit ielder difper speari sonder cfol good
12:33:31 <oerjan> no such language. here we all speak rigelian.
12:35:28 <oerjan> sonder the darades, we've got a difper following us!
12:36:11 <oerjan> don't believe that volute runcharmit!
12:36:46 <oerjan> he's prote to a lot of no good
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12:37:38 <oerjan> Sgth. Constrefe, you're such a diviot!
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12:54:14 <Deewiant> So is the weather in Hexham today Scotland? http://i.imgur.com/SWaD6.jpg
12:56:49 <fizzie> "Current temperature at Otaniemi: 3.12 °C"
12:57:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Deewiant, depends on whether everything that hasn't been nailed down has blown away.
12:57:44 <fizzie> It was -5 just two days ago; and yesterday it was snowing reasonably heavily; now I guess it's all going to just melt again.
12:59:53 <itidus21> Weather for Melbourne, Victoria | Temperature: 73F / 23C
13:02:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Deewiant, I believe the weather for Tuesday indicates that there are clouds forming an X shape in the sky, in much the same way as they are reported to have to Óengus II before his battle with the Angles.
13:09:06 <oerjan> @tell zzo38 i think your number may be larger than Skewes's number but smaller than Moser's number, as afaict all your functions are still primitive recursive, so cannot get up to the approx. ackermann level.
13:14:51 <Sgeo> oerjan, does my computer have any chance of storing Skewes's number?
13:15:45 <oerjan> not written out in a common base, no
13:17:01 <oerjan> 10^10^10^34 has 10^10^34 decimals. even 10^10^34 has 10^34 which is enormous
13:23:12 <oerjan> 09:33:54: <Vorpal> mathematica says that 10^(10^100) > 256^256 is True, but it gives a warning about overflow
13:23:24 <oerjan> 256^256 = 2^(8*256), so much smaller
13:24:42 <fizzie> Estimates of the amount of "data" in the world are around the magnitude of a zettabyte, 10^21 bytes.
13:25:45 <fizzie> They newsposts that report these estimates never tell how they're made.
13:27:02 <Phantom_Hoover> The absolute quantum-mechanical upper bound for the data storage of the entire Earth is only around 10^75 bits.
13:28:08 <itidus21> fizzie: is that in non-compressed form? :P
13:28:20 <itidus21> suppose all the data in the world is compressed ... hahahahha
13:28:44 <itidus21> like the amount of "data" in the world probably means the amount of ram in the world
13:28:59 <itidus21> or the size of the world's tape
13:29:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Clearly they estimated the Bekenstein bounds of all the computers in the world.
13:29:36 <itidus21> this topic over my head which means i am learning
13:29:59 <fizzie> All they really say is just "content" in the "Internet"; I'm sure it's based on something more detailed, but they never bother including that in the reporting.
13:30:23 <Phantom_Hoover> The Bekenstein bound of the internet as depicted by The IT Crowd.
13:30:37 <Phantom_Hoover> (It's zero, because the internet obviously doesn't weigh anything.)
13:30:37 <fizzie> "In 2007, humankind was able to store 2.9 × 10^20 optimally compressed bytes, communicate almost 2 × 10^21 bytes, and carry out 6.4 × 10^18 instructions per second on general-purpose computers", says a 2011 Science article, which presumably has some details too.
13:31:50 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: That's shorthand for "best algorithms available in 2007".
13:32:07 <fizzie> In the context of this story, anyway.
13:33:53 <oerjan> they got an oracle to compress it all down to one bit, but then it went on strike so they couldn't get it uncompressed again
13:38:14 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, I can store an arbitrary number of 'optimally compressed bytes' if I'm allowed to set the algorithm.
13:39:09 <itidus21> i threw that comment in there about compression to show that its a kind of subjective argument
13:39:35 <itidus21> like, maybe each electron on earth can be used as a form of atomic ram
13:40:16 <Phantom_Hoover> (You'd almost think I knew something about quantum information theory.)
13:44:11 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Look, it's just a normalization thing, for pseudo-meaningfulizing the comparisons between the years they do. One megabyte of disk space used for storing video in 2007 counts as storing 1 MB of "optimally compressed" bytes; but the same one megabyte of video in 2000 counts as storing 0.45 MB of "optimally compressed" bytes, because you could store the same amount of "information" in 0.45 MB in 2007.
13:44:21 <fizzie> It's still pretty handwavy, I'm not denying that.
13:45:42 <fizzie> I have no clue where they got all their numbers of how much storage capacity there is in the world, or what it's used for, though.
13:51:18 <Jafet> 10^21 bytes of youtube videos, facebook photos, B-rate porn, and raw astronomy data
13:51:27 <Jafet> We live in a glorious civilization.
13:51:50 <oerjan> raw astronomy porn, check
13:53:17 <Jafet> Don't google "Young slit experiment"
13:58:06 <fizzie> Heh, that was a funny bug. We have this audio file reader which used to take as a parameter whether it's reading a .wav file or a raw data file; then it'd open with libsndfile and read. At some point, someone "improved" it so that it just tries to open it with libsndfile as "unknown format", and if that fails, uses it as a raw data file instead.
13:59:11 <fizzie> Turns out that for one particular file, after one particular piece of processing, the raw audio file (which it was) happens to contain initial bytes that look enough like some random audio format to confuse libsndfile.
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14:03:15 <fizzie> I did, in fact, Google (image search) it, and got http://www.askamathematician.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/ammo.jpg as a result. I... don't know.
14:03:28 <fizzie> (The image is work-safe, in case someone is wondering.)
14:03:44 <fizzie> (Or, well, I don't know. Maybe if your employer hates kittens?)
14:03:57 <fizzie> (Then it might not be.)
14:04:33 <fizzie> Apparently that's an illustration below where the blog-author calculates the de Broglie wavelength of a kitten.
14:05:21 <fizzie> Also the blog posting is mostly about cat puns.
14:05:35 <fizzie> "-- a “coherent cat beam” (a “cat-hode ray”, as it were) --" and so on.
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14:23:42 <oerjan> something fishy here http://www.dagbladet.no/2012/01/02/nyheter/dyrenes_nyheter/innenriks/fiskedod/19632870/
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14:31:59 * Phantom_Hoover notes that Mac Lane says "such that the following diagrams commute:" and then has one of the diagrams consist of two objects with a single morphism between them.
14:42:38 <itidus21> i think that the number of different brain states is an absurd thing to worry about :-D
14:43:41 <itidus21> sorry, for the "absurd thing" and "worry about" and ":-D"
14:49:43 <itidus21> curious questions about quantum states of human brains are..
14:50:03 <itidus21> are some states of human brains more valuable than others
14:52:02 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus21, states, in this case, mean quantum-mechanical states, not anything more abstract.
14:52:12 <itidus21> theres no lack of uniformity that i know of between the atoms in the brain and the atoms in the skull apart from the way they are structured into molecules
14:53:11 <Phantom_Hoover> This is why the Bekenstein bound is not indicative of anything particularly useful, beyond a sardonic upper bound for data storage questions.
14:55:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, it's obviously useful for QM, but not for working out storage capacities.
14:56:26 <itidus21> i don't like the idea of viewing my thoughts as quantum states i guess is what i mean
15:02:24 <itidus21> a religion where information is god :P
15:03:16 <itidus21> what sort of information? physical structures
15:06:42 <itidus21> this is not really motivated as an attack on science or on anyone.. just dealing with some stuff :P
15:08:51 <itidus21> ok.. well i am hopping afk for some asthma stuff
15:10:30 <itidus21> trying to understand science and liberal arts at the same time
15:10:57 <itidus21> most sensible people don't try to collide them
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15:25:09 <itidus21> the asthma is my own fault since i hate using the proper medicine .. nevermind that
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15:29:17 <itidus21> hoover: ok heres one way i can put it.. we humans spend a lot of time caring about other humans
15:30:15 <itidus21> we store information in our environments
15:32:35 <itidus21> hmm whats another way for me to randomly angst against science
15:34:28 <itidus21> the geek gradually gets fixed upon a path
15:34:49 <itidus21> forging his mind into a weapon of geekdom
15:35:21 <itidus21> i should concede that all people gradually "invest" their life in some direction or other
15:35:43 <itidus21> but i think it is important to realize that such investments are being made.. there is no perfect investment
15:47:08 <itidus21> ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
15:47:37 <itidus21> ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++......-....++....
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16:52:31 <itidus21> looking a bit closer at this bekenstein thing..
16:53:03 <itidus21> a mass next to another mass exerts a certain amount of gravity force on it
16:55:05 <itidus21> that is to say, that modelling the static state of something is one question
16:55:34 <itidus21> but modelling the dynamic physical state of something probably requires modelling the totality of the universe acting upon it
16:59:45 <itidus21> ty hackego for not patronizing me
17:00:57 <itidus21> i'm just typing rubbish as usual..
17:00:58 <kallisti> itidus21: well this depends on what exactly you're trying to model, and how sophisticated the computer system is on which you're modelling it.
17:02:11 <itidus21> hmm.. well i guess what i mean is you can't cut and paste the universe
17:02:13 <kallisti> for example, there's no need to measure the effects of the gravity of Mars and Jupitor on a soccer ball on Earth because the inverse square laws results in incredibly meager forces.
17:02:25 <kallisti> it may be values so close to 0 that your computer cannot represent them as anything other than 0
17:02:45 <itidus21> since the two regions will act differently
17:02:53 <itidus21> depending on where they are in the universe
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17:04:40 <kallisti> sure. To be an accurate system you'd want your subset of the universe to be as closed as possible.
17:04:47 <itidus21> hmm.. well i guess what i mean is you can't cut and paste the universe, since the distance between the 2 regions will have an effect on the behaviour of those regions
17:05:10 <Phantom_Hoover> <kallisti> for example, there's no need to measure the effects of the gravity of Mars and Jupitor on a soccer ball on Earth because the inverse square laws results in incredibly meager forces.
17:05:19 <itidus21> like.. if you cut and pasted a high mass piece of the universe next to itself.. each mass would have a strong effect on each other mass
17:05:31 <kallisti> Phantom_Hoover: what you've heard of Jupitor? crazy britons.
17:05:51 <itidus21> but if you cut and pasted those same masses very far apart the effect would be less
17:06:09 <kallisti> Phantom_Hoover: I shouldn't even entertain such notions with you. You've probably never heard of the inverse square laws..
17:06:58 <kallisti> they also subtract up in absolute terms since we're talking about vectors.
17:06:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Sure we do, they're the laws obeyed by the curve generated by inverting a square through a circle.
17:07:00 <quintopia> itidus21: gravity travels at the speed of light. copy and paste your universe into a different reference frame moving away from the first at the speed of light and problem solved
17:07:29 <itidus21> i suppose its not "ok" to cut and paste regions of the universe
17:07:42 <itidus21> in mathematical or physics sense even
17:07:52 <Phantom_Hoover> <quintopia> itidus21: gravity travels at the speed of light. copy and paste your universe into a different reference frame moving away from the first at the speed of light and problem solved
17:08:36 <itidus21> im just trying to say that as everyone already knows, the universe can't model itself
17:08:51 <itidus21> because im a newbie and i say such things
17:09:04 <kallisti> quintopia: yes you need a better clipboard to do that kind of stuff.
17:09:18 <kallisti> I recommend one of those fancy external clipboard programs.
17:09:26 <kallisti> they have a lot of nice features.
17:09:38 <Phantom_Hoover> quintopia, *everything* affects gravity, not just matter.
17:10:33 <kallisti> itidus21: but what I'm saying is that if you calculate a value to be 0 because your computer lacks the precision to regard that value as anything other than zero, then adding a bunch of zeros together is not going to add up in any measurable sense.
17:10:42 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: are you going to tell me that two systems moving apart at the speed of light can have an effect on one another?
17:10:48 <Phantom_Hoover> <itidus21> im just trying to say that as everyone already knows, the universe can't model itself
17:12:05 <kallisti> http://www.crafts4kids.com/projects/images/solar-sys.jpg doomsday device. the universe will implode now.
17:12:24 <itidus21> i should stop discussing these topics if i don't want to discuss them
17:13:54 <kallisti> itidus21: well just consider that it doesn't take the same amount of resources to accurate model a smaller scale version of the universe than it does to operate a full scale model.
17:14:02 <kallisti> if it did, then yes, that would be impossible.
17:14:30 <itidus21> so there might exist backups of the universe? :-s
17:15:26 <itidus21> but that probably hits the backup infinite regression problem
17:16:01 <kallisti> just the first backup is already a monumental task.
17:16:33 <itidus21> probably not the best thing for me at 4am either
17:16:42 <kallisti> but if you're considering just the capability of such a thing and ignoring all practically, I would say that it's at least possible.
17:16:44 <itidus21> its not going to help me relax
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17:17:55 <kallisti> however, I think in terms of classical physics for the most part. I don't know much at all about quantum physics, so my intuition likely breaks down at that level.
17:18:08 <kallisti> so then it becomes a question, how precise of a model do you want?
17:18:48 <itidus21> i don't imagine theres any other motive
17:19:10 <kallisti> itidus21: I'm afraid there may be no end to your goal in sight..
17:19:26 <kallisti> girls like cars and money. sorry.
17:19:35 <kallisti> I guess you'd need a lot of money to simulate the universe though.
17:19:45 <itidus21> "oh tidus, what a wonderful universe simulation you have made"
17:20:34 <kallisti> of course you could simulate women in lieu of actual women.. but.. I think I should probably abandon that path of discussion.
17:21:52 -!- Ngevd has joined.
17:22:04 <kallisti> (this is where the precision of your models really comes into play)
17:23:14 <Ngevd> The odds of me having seen elliott have increased mildly
17:24:27 <itidus21> you should write brainfuck on the public toilet walls
17:24:35 <Ngevd> No, due to me seeing someone I did not recognise but about my age at around the time when, according to the logs, "engree", whom I presume to be elliott, went to sleep
17:24:53 <Ngevd> itidus21, I'll write some lambda calculus
17:25:28 <Ngevd> kallisti, engree, or the person whom I saw
17:25:51 <itidus21> i wonder how far such ideas have gone
17:26:00 <Ngevd> itidus21, I'd imagine not very
17:26:35 <kallisti> google images suggests "not very much"
17:27:33 <kallisti> Ngevd: anyway what makes you think that this random person your age that you saw after elliott went to sleep is elliott?
17:27:45 -!- mr_schlauch has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in).
17:28:33 <Ngevd> kallisti, /at around the same time/ as elliott whent to sleep
17:29:00 <Ngevd> I said the odds of increased mildly, not OMG TOTALLYZ SEEN ELLIOTT LOL
17:29:24 <itidus21> http://boingboing.net/2009/10/09/c-graffiti.html
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17:30:06 <kallisti> itidus21: ah I see you've found the zenith of the artform.
17:30:29 <kallisti> "I told them I knew C because I am good with word and email so they hired me." looooool
17:30:38 <itidus21> i don't see a declaration of ii though
17:30:52 <kallisti> wow it took them an entire 2 months to get fired. that's incredible.
17:34:15 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
17:39:35 <elliott> 07:56:13: <Vorpal> come on, mc dropped retro the day it implemented smooth light
17:39:35 <elliott> 07:56:47: <fizzie> That was someone else's idea, though, and optional in any case.
17:39:36 <elliott> 07:57:00: <Vorpal> well that stuff isn't around any more
17:39:36 <elliott> 07:57:29: <fizzie> Isn't it still toggleable? (I certainly haven't looked.)
17:39:46 <elliott> It's on-by-default, though.
17:41:00 <elliott> 09:05:48: <zzo38> I made up a big number, according to these functions of natural numbers, where ^ means exponent and ! means factorial and ; separates the definitions.
17:41:00 <elliott> 09:06:51: <zzo38> f(0,0) = 1; f(x,0) = x^f(x-1,k(x,x!)); f(x,y) = x!+k(y^f(x,0),y^f(x,y-1))
17:41:00 <elliott> 09:07:24: <zzo38> k(x,0) = 2^h(x,0); k(x,y) = (x+y)^k((xy)^(xy),y-1)
17:41:00 <elliott> 09:07:54: <zzo38> h(0,0) = 1; h(x,0) = p(h(x-1,p(x))); h(x,y) = p(h(x,y-1))
17:41:00 <elliott> 09:08:02: <zzo38> p(x) = x'th prime number; p(0)=1
17:41:01 <elliott> 09:08:20: <zzo38> q(x,0) = f(x,0); q(x,y) = f(q(x,y-1),q(x,y-1))
17:41:04 <elliott> 09:08:28: <zzo38> Big number = q(2,q(2,2))
17:41:05 <elliott> 09:09:15: <zzo38> How large is it, what is its one's digit, what is its most significant digit, how does it compare to other big numbers, and etc?
17:41:08 <elliott> 09:10:36: <zzo38> Is it larger or smaller than: Skew's number, Moser's number, Graham's number, and XKCD's number?
17:41:12 <elliott> 09:10:59: <zzo38> Or even equal?
17:41:14 <elliott> I am completely unqualified to answer this, but I really doubt it's as big as Graham's number.
17:51:17 <elliott> 11:34:41: <fizzie> ((?!foo).)* sounds like something that at least a commonly stupid regex engine would implement in the rather bad "check for a 'foo' substring at each position" way.
17:51:18 <elliott> 11:36:31: <Patashu> would the pearl regex engine implement that in the bad way?
17:51:18 <elliott> 11:36:39: -!- Jafet has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
17:51:18 <elliott> 11:36:40: <Patashu> b/c that's what mushclient uses
17:51:19 <elliott> 11:37:53: <fizzie> From what I've heard, it's not uncommonly smart.
17:51:21 <elliott> 11:52:30: <fizzie> Patashu: http://sprunge.us/fdXW -- well, that doesn't look excessively smart. Though I guess it's possible the debug mode inhibits some optimilizations.
17:51:31 <elliott> fizzie: Patashu was almost certainly referring to PCRE...
17:51:50 <elliott> 12:11:17: <oerjan> <engree> pikhq: Well, this is none of those; this is under the xor of all those licenses. A term applies iff only a single license in the set has it.
17:51:50 <elliott> 12:11:30: <oerjan> that's not xor, xor means an odd number
17:51:50 <elliott> 12:11:59: <oerjan> it's addition (mod 2), after all
17:52:23 <elliott> 12:54:14: <Deewiant> So is the weather in Hexham today Scotland? http://i.imgur.com/SWaD6.jpg
17:52:31 <elliott> Deewiant: The winds actually blew us over the border.
17:55:31 <fizzie> elliott: I sort of thought it was maybe about PCRE, but since e just said "Perl"...
17:55:51 <elliott> Embedding Perl's regexp engine in some software and then exposing it to Lua would be impressive.
17:56:27 <elliott> 13:58:06: <fizzie> Heh, that was a funny bug. We have this audio file reader which used to take as a parameter whether it's reading a .wav file or a raw data file; then it'd open with libsndfile and read. At some point, someone "improved" it so that it just tries to open it with libsndfile as "unknown format", and if that fails, uses it as a raw data file instead.
17:56:27 <elliott> 13:59:11: <fizzie> Turns out that for one particular file, after one particular piece of processing, the raw audio file (which it was) happens to contain initial bytes that look enough like some random audio format to confuse libsndfile.
17:56:35 <elliott> HA HA HA I CAN'T STOP LAUGHING OH THE LIFE OF A SPEECH RECOGNITION RESEARCHER
17:57:02 <Ngevd> I felt like getting a grasp on zzo38's number
17:57:10 <fizzie> Apparently someone else had hit the bug too, and had added an override parameter back. But it still has the automagic logic if you don't specify anything.
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18:22:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Pfffft, you've CLEARLY never heard of inaccessible cardinals!
18:29:58 -!- myndzi\ has joined.
18:31:40 <Ngevd> How do I stop being away?
18:32:06 <kallisti> on irssi it's just /away with no arguments
18:32:55 <kallisti> so, my intuition would suggest that have multiple processors does not increase the speed at which you can send packets over a network.
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18:33:14 <kallisti> as your processor count increases your network adapter becomes a larger bottleneck. yes?
18:33:24 -!- Ngevd has joined.
18:33:27 <kallisti> or, a smaller bottleneck, I guess.
18:33:39 <lahwran> <kallisti> on irssi it's just /away with no arguments
18:33:48 <lahwran> no, that's not irssi - that's the irc specification of AWAY
18:34:08 <lahwran> some clients alias /back or /unaway to a /away with no arguments
18:34:10 <kallisti> ah. didn't know. I always prefix my IRC suggestions with "in irssi, it works like this"
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19:02:32 <kallisti> anyone use a non-qwerty layout?
19:03:19 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:06:37 <elliott> I use qwerty except I swapped t and y.
19:07:01 -!- kmc has joined.
19:09:21 <oklopol> because qweryt sounds better?
19:20:25 <elliott> > appEndo $ mappend (Endo f) (Endo g)
19:20:25 <lambdabot> Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show (a -> a)
19:20:29 <elliott> > appEndo $ mappend (Endo f) (Endo g) :: Expr
19:20:30 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `SimpleReflect.Expr'
19:20:39 <elliott> > appEndo (mappend (Endo f) (Endo g)) x :: Expr
19:20:47 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `b' in the constraints:
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19:30:10 <HackEgo> herefine rol cha bourterminim ing katlanz eive diseuen karto inde
19:30:48 <elliott> Herefine sounds like an archaic word.
19:31:10 <elliott> "Should we stop here?" "Fine."
19:39:03 <kallisti> !perl print map {$_, 'c' } "hello"
19:49:07 -!- NihilistDandy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:59:41 <kallisti> !perl print "h", uc undef, "i"
19:59:47 <kallisti> !perl print "h", uc undef // " ", "i"
20:00:02 <Ngevd> !perl print "hello"
20:00:08 <Ngevd> My first perl program
20:05:32 <elliott> 17:24:35: <Ngevd> No, due to me seeing someone I did not recognise but about my age at around the time when, according to the logs, "engree", whom I presume to be elliott, went to sleep
20:05:50 <Ngevd> Well, mystery solved
20:06:10 <elliott> Ngevd: Well, unless you peeked in my window or something.
20:07:01 <kallisti> !perl $_"hi"; %t{uc}=ucfirst; print %t;
20:07:02 <EgoBot> String found where operator expected at /tmp/input.15666 line 1, near "$_"hi"" \.(Missing operator before "hi"?) \ syntax error at /tmp/input.15666 line 1, near "$_"hi"" \ syntax error at /tmp/input.15666 line 1, near "%t{uc" \ Execution of /tmp/input.15666 aborted due to compilation errors.
20:07:13 <kallisti> !perl $_="hi"; %t{uc}=ucfirst; print %t;
20:07:14 <EgoBot> syntax error at /tmp/input.15724 line 1, near "%t{uc" \ Execution of /tmp/input.15724 aborted due to compilation errors.
20:07:18 <kallisti> !perl $_="hi"; $t{uc}=ucfirst; print %t;
20:07:45 <kallisti> !perl $_="hi"; $t{&uc}=ucfirst; print %t;
20:07:46 <EgoBot> Undefined subroutine &main::uc called at /tmp/input.15851 line 1.
20:07:57 <kallisti> !perl $_="hi"; $t{;uc}=ucfirst; print %t;
20:07:58 <EgoBot> syntax error at /tmp/input.15907 line 1, near "{;" \ syntax error at /tmp/input.15907 line 1, near "uc}" \ Execution of /tmp/input.15907 aborted due to compilation errors.
20:08:02 <kallisti> !perl $_="hi"; $t{+uc}=ucfirst; print %t;
20:09:00 <kallisti> adding unary plus to expressions to change their semantics is what Perl is all about.
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20:13:32 <elliott> http://www.amazon.co.uk/coal-primer-William-Patrick-Rogers/dp/B0007302VM/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top
20:13:35 <elliott> Hey guys, should I buy this book?
20:14:21 <elliott> Deewiant: It's a little on the pricey side, don't you think?
20:16:33 <elliott> Deewiant: Thanks for your advice, but I think I'll go with http://www.amazon.co.uk/Landolt-B%C3%B6rnstein-Set-2011-Functional-Relationships/dp/3642201067/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1325621737&sr=1-1 instead
20:16:39 <elliott> Deewiant: I don't trust third-party sellers
20:16:50 <fizzie> The added £2.80 for delivery is a bit much. What, no Super Saver stuff?
20:16:53 <elliott> Also the 5% discount is nice.
20:17:32 <kallisti> !perl @x=1..5; print map{@x}@x #yeaaaaaaaah
20:17:32 <EgoBot> 1234512345123451234512345
20:18:02 <fizzie> "Paperback: 7190 pages". That's a big book.
20:18:16 <elliott> fizzie: This one has free delivery: http://www.amazon.co.uk/13CNMR-Organic-Compounds-SpecInfo-Wolfgang/dp/0471662410/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1325621737&sr=1-2
20:18:26 <elliott> Also I'm just getting these from Phantom_Hoover, he's missing out bigtime on #esoteric karma.
20:18:47 <kallisti> sometimes I feel Perl is a little overzealous with the warnings.
20:19:04 <kallisti> it told me that a , in a qw could possibly be an attempt to seperate words with commas.
20:19:25 <kallisti> !perl use warnings; qw( z x c v b n m , .)
20:19:26 <EgoBot> Possible attempt to separate words with commas at /tmp/input.17516 line 1. \ Useless use of a constant in void context at /tmp/input.17516 line 1. \ Useless use of a constant in void context at /tmp/input.17516 line 1. \ Useless use of a constant in void context at /tmp/input.17516 line 1. \ Useless use of a constant in void context at /tmp/input.17516 line 1. \ Useless use of a constant in void context at /tmp/input.17516
20:19:47 <kallisti> !perl use warnings; print qw( z x c v b n m , .);
20:19:48 <EgoBot> Possible attempt to separate words with commas at /tmp/input.17585 line 1. \ zxcvbnm,.
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20:23:16 <HackEgo> sertenchare pensici solvo gab ermin aft chapp nier serr liie capdlak neret anntracti uiier bertic misson supprompt soufe trabit sposusan urdla jai farmg dun sobrig cond peet sthophal gonomi koll paraflow nonum segm jex guh reque rez lay cabe nei aspecte aculin vouanth echlori idly luinzeigh know pitudie armoread mahart
20:23:39 -!- oerjan has set topic: Welcome to the world championship in sertenchare and capdlak | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
20:24:05 -!- oerjan has set topic: Welcome to the world championship in sertenchare, pensici, solvo and capdlak | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
20:24:24 <kallisti> you forgot paraflow supprompt and armoread
20:24:25 -!- elliott has set topic: Welcome to the world championship in sertenchare, pensici, solvo and capdlak | "Aft Chapp Nier Serr, Liee Neret Anntracti" | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
20:24:59 <kallisti> you guys picked all the wrong words.
20:28:36 <oerjan> well no one could possibly deny that pensici, solvo, capdlak, sposusan and gonomi are supprompt game names
20:29:46 <oerjan> I SAID NO ONE COULD POSSIBLY DENY IT
20:29:56 <quintopia> what? sorry, i was off on a bertic misson
20:31:40 <oerjan> Hand me the aculin, we have a rampant echlori infection here!
20:32:34 <kallisti> `words --eng-all 50 #we need crazier words
20:32:41 <HackEgo> placox eal heperoifersey misien cayu vicarne gesin comeca hirten crun eechr sig corrh lanzugenem pontedth hen divir con nephaltur johand hoff solousleisel fanwe unned pringay nyi gwaei parv daljave livaiin fayr sume costor mir refle sdoublival pana roxyfm dale cice chianartum makircusape shell forsac prestant estehilizata masca toria culuterphilig ehr
20:32:54 <oerjan> the patient's segm is serring, we need more sthophal!
20:33:48 <oerjan> it looks like the patient has placox chianartum
20:35:27 <oerjan> get a livaiin nephaltur, stat!
20:35:59 <kallisti> have you heard of that fancy new music website called roxyfm?
20:37:12 -!- _Slereah has changed nick to Slereah.
21:39:02 <oerjan> <elliott> I am completely unqualified to answer this, but I really doubt it's as big as Graham's number. <-- *MWAHAHAHA*
21:39:17 <oerjan> i mean, i also doubt it, with even some qualification
21:40:41 <elliott> oerjan: the "completely unqualified" part was just humbleness, I knew it was smaller when I realised it was just a bunch of nestings of ^ and ! :P
21:41:03 <oerjan> well _technically_ so is graham's number :P
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21:42:09 <elliott> oerjan: yeah, but this doesn't apply the large numbers to the /control flow/
21:43:01 <oerjan> i guess that's another way of saying it has to be primitive recursive
21:44:37 <elliott> oerjan: it was not intended to be a precise assessment :P
21:45:06 <oerjan> none of the functions is using itself to determine its recursion depth
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21:46:00 <oerjan> yes, i guess that's it
21:46:30 <ais523> Frooxius: what year did AttoASM first become public? 2011, or 2012?
21:47:37 -!- iconmaster has joined.
21:48:04 <elliott> he linked to a video of it from 2011 iirc
21:48:09 <elliott> but i think he's just released the lang itself
21:48:38 <iconmaster> whew FINALLY connected: I came to the conclusion that my IRC client is shit.
21:49:06 <iconmaster> Did you get a bunch of wierd messages from me?
21:50:04 <oerjan> iconmaster: not that i noticed
21:50:17 <iconmaster> Apparently, arbitarily picking your IRC client from the first item on Wikipedia's IRC Client List is not a good idea.
21:50:59 <iconmaster> (My old client was Bersirc. Notic the alphabetic precedence.)
21:51:20 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIRC
21:51:37 <oerjan> the world's most reassuring irc client
21:52:19 <elliott> hello! welcome to #esoteric! hello! welcome to #esoteric! hello! wel
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21:54:43 <oerjan> Welcome aboard! We know that some of you may be a little nervous about traveling on the world's first fully automated airplane, but we can assure you that there is nothing to worry about nothing to worry about nothing to worry about no
21:55:11 <Ngevd> We have a bot that does this for us, fungot
21:55:12 <fungot> Ngevd: how do you keep doing that? women, do i? where is fraulein dr smith, the traitorous rat! there's a rat! there's a rat! there's a rat! there's a rat! there's a rat! there's a rat! there's a rat! there's a rat! there's a rat! there's a rat! there's a rat! there's a rat! there's a rat! there's a rat! there's a rat! there's a rat! there's a rat! there's a rat! there's a rat! there's a rat! there's a rat! there's a rat! there
21:55:23 <fungot> oerjan: no, the boy, do i? the scorpion and a killer taipan possibilities. we could kill, not get killed, but there was a software glitch and you didn't die in reality! pteranowaffe!
21:55:34 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs* jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
21:56:08 <oerjan> î thought iwc got a little repetititive at the end
21:56:11 <fungot> Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments)
21:56:16 <fungot> shachaf: what if she never was, at the end you hear the truth, all these people accept amazingly lucky sods? and how many octaves do you really are some old pics, great everything
21:57:13 <elliott> fuck, i haven't been keeping up with iwc reruns
21:57:20 <elliott> oerjan: have the sunday annotations still been good
21:57:54 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
21:58:55 <oerjan> fungot: don't tell me youtube comments are less repetitive than iwc!
21:58:55 <fungot> oerjan: the accident report? i think mona is looking more and more!! its kinda scary at first but it was
21:59:18 <oerjan> fungot: yes that's scary
21:59:18 <fungot> oerjan: boy, suuure looks like everything i hear it was manned. ignore him.
21:59:33 <fungot> Madoka-Kaname: yes. there were passengers and none of you.
21:59:41 <fungot> Madoka-Kaname: this game.
21:59:49 <oerjan> fungot: it seems youtube comments are a bit short
21:59:49 <fungot> oerjan: bad thing is it when the plane
21:59:57 <fungot> shachaf: looks ok. now be gone, troll. thats bad.
22:00:01 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube*
22:00:47 <fungot> Selected style: lovecraft (H. P. Lovecraft's writings)
22:00:52 <fungot> Madoka-Kaname: the inhabitants of a given dimensional realm could survive entry to many unknown and incomprehensible realms of additional or indefinitely multiplied dimensions be they within or outside the given space-time continuum and that the vital parts of the
22:01:02 <fungot> Madoka-Kaname: our first whose exact fate we had never learned to drive should be ordering me about and taking the fnord a.m., while traversing a long, black line scarcely rising above the water yet carrying a suggestion of the fnord
22:01:40 <fungot> Madoka-Kaname: my head is weak from thirst, suffocation, cardiac strain, and badly in need of charles's constant oversight. charles sent his best wishes, and of a quaint colonial village. the nurse used to stop and sit on carved benches of porphyry scanning the stars, necessarily vague as it was
22:04:12 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
22:07:25 -!- Jafet has joined.
22:07:57 <fungot> Madoka-Kaname: i studied psychology systematically, and under all conditions, was fnord that my mind needed a rest. wish i dared to get help it might brace up my will power but everyone who would dare to come at all would call me crazy unless there happened to be some proof. couldnt ask people to come for no reason at all am all out of sight. this was the
22:08:06 <fungot> Selected style: homestuck (Homestuck pages 1901-4673)
22:08:36 <elliott> Thank fucking god fungot has a message limit.
22:08:37 <fungot> elliott: his birthday is in a few minutes. wow he is so cool. two more large gizmos. it was once the island remained except the pony a begrudging pat, as gently in the horn fell off. dammit.
22:09:28 -!- aloril has joined.
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22:11:31 <lambdabot> forall a. (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> Maybe a
22:12:30 <lambdabot> forall a b (f :: * -> *) (g :: * -> *). (Functor f, Functor g) => (a -> b) -> f (g a) -> f (g b)
22:13:00 <oerjan> > nubBy((>1).:gcd)[2..]
22:13:02 <lambdabot> [2,3,5,7,11,13,17,19,23,29,31,37,41,43,47,53,59,61,67,71,73,79,83,89,97,101...
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22:13:39 <elliott> oerjan: it's caleskell, man
22:13:43 <lambdabot> forall (f :: * -> *) a b (f1 :: * -> *). (Functor f, Functor f1) => (a -> b) -> f (f1 a) -> f (f1 b)
22:14:29 <lambdabot> forall (f :: * -> *) (f1 :: * -> *) a b (f2 :: * -> *). (Functor f, Functor f1, Functor f2) => (a -> b) -> f (f1 (f2 a)) -> f (f1 (f2 b))
22:14:41 <lambdabot> forall a b (f :: * -> *). (Functor f) => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
22:14:45 <elliott> oerjan: just think of (.) as liftF
22:14:51 <elliott> you're lifting into the nth depth of a stack of functors
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22:17:54 <shachaf> @let (.::) = (.) . (.) .(.)
22:21:20 <kallisti> I feel like words/unwords and lines/unlines should have their names flipped.
22:22:13 <shachaf> I also feel like lines/unlines and words/unwords are evil because they lose information.
22:22:30 <kallisti> they're not perfect inverses, no.
22:22:46 <kallisti> presumably you don't want that extra information, and if you do, you want to use something.
22:23:01 <kallisti> something isn't evil because it doesn't fill the purpose you want it to.
22:23:04 <shachaf> I want a function onlines :: (String -> String) -> String -> String
22:23:19 <shachaf> This is usually implemented as \f -> unlines . f . lines, which is wrong.
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22:24:12 <kallisti> but still I think unlines makes more sense a function that splits a string by lines, removing the lines from the strings
22:24:24 <shachaf> "lines" gives you the lines in a string.
22:24:27 <kallisti> and lines taking a list of strings and produce a single string of lines.
22:24:28 <shachaf> "unlines" does the opposite of lines.
22:24:44 <shachaf> Think more, like, declaratively, man.
22:24:46 <kallisti> shachaf: you could do the exact same thing with the flipped meanings.
22:25:16 <elliott> kallisti's proposal is nonsense.
22:25:18 <kallisti> "lines" gives you a list of strings as lines
22:25:18 <shachaf> elliott would like to explain.
22:25:20 <elliott> shachaf is completely right.
22:25:22 <kallisti> "unlines" does the opposite of lines.
22:25:33 <shachaf> elliott: Are you going to Hac Boston?
22:25:36 <elliott> kallisti: "lines xs" is not the lines of xs.
22:25:39 <elliott> Therefore the name is wrong.
22:25:55 <elliott> "foldr f z xs" is the fold of (f,z) over xs, so the name is right. "succ x" is the successor of x, so the name is right.
22:26:03 <elliott> "lines s" is the lines of s, so the name is right.
22:27:06 <shachaf> elliott: IF foldr f z xs IS THE FOLD OF (f,z) OVER xs, WHY ISN'T IT CALLED foldr (f,z) xs???
22:27:46 <elliott> shachaf: I was going to say "f and z" but then I decided to be a MATHEMATICIAN about it!!!!!!
22:27:56 <elliott> We should use "of" as infix application syntax.
22:28:00 <elliott> And allow spaces in function names.
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22:28:13 <elliott> foo = the unlines of the lines of xs
22:29:14 <elliott> hmm, I'll give this guy 5 minutes to accept my answer
22:29:37 <kallisti> elliott: I like how your "of" basically breaks down completely.
22:29:52 <kallisti> because some Haskell functions are in fact verbs.
22:30:26 <iconmaster> Pretty much when I'm away, there will be a shitty chatbot that talks when you mention it
22:30:37 <iconmaster> i guess like fungot but less markov-y?
22:30:40 <elliott> Congratulations, you've invented fungot.
22:30:40 <fungot> elliott: but, there are imps around, the pad. it's hard to remember though your cross-hairs would never settle on an innocent little girl. chokes up now imagine she's white.
22:30:47 <ais523> elliott: you got ninja'd
22:30:53 <elliott> `addquote <fungot> elliott: but, there are imps around, the pad. it's hard to remember though your cross-hairs would never settle on an innocent little girl. chokes up now imagine she's white.
22:30:53 <fungot> elliott: john, the uncarved minitablet. john carved this tablet at the request. it's just a wrapper for your private reading material later, you will play a game with a dead heir and witch
22:30:56 <HackEgo> 794) <fungot> elliott: but, there are imps around, the pad. it's hard to remember though your cross-hairs would never settle on an innocent little girl. chokes up now imagine she's white.
22:31:00 <elliott> fungot is a depraved individual.
22:31:01 <fungot> elliott: so just to review, your schemes, convoluted. you are planning a heist in your underground hideout. implement nefarious as you might, you can't out troll me in these like
22:31:04 <ais523> elliott: that is not a good fungot quote
22:31:04 <fungot> ais523: of what??? now you've seen everything! weaky, is it really so much to the frustration of the suitor.
22:31:08 <kallisti> iconmaster: you should make it sentient like Strider's bot...
22:31:11 <HackEgo> 735) <monqy> i cnat eve begin to understand what you meant with that "one"
22:31:21 <HackEgo> 461) <fizzie> elliott: You have become the very thing you fought for!
22:31:25 <HackEgo> 448) <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, living in the future sucks. <Phantom_Hoover> The past just keeps coming up to us and trying to make us feel guilty.
22:31:25 <iconmaster> Srider was an inspiration, so i'll try my hardest
22:31:46 <iconmaster> but yeah, it'll prolly just be a shitty chat-bot
22:32:15 <HackEgo> 674) <fizzie> It's missing the "bear scat showing a diet of prime numbers" picture.
22:32:15 <HackEgo> 490) <monqy> rest in peace lambdabot???? <ais523> monqy: it'll probably be back later <monqy> nap in peace
22:32:26 <iconmaster> I mean, this IRC library I'm using right now... It's not documented almost at all
22:32:46 <elliott> You could just write your own IRC code; the protocol is trivial.
22:32:53 <ais523> elliott: 735 the worst?
22:33:09 <ais523> elliott: there are 5: 735 461 448 674 490
22:33:37 <elliott> oh, right. i like them all but 674 is prolly worst
22:33:46 <ais523> I don't get 735 at all
22:33:54 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: so just to review, your schemes, convoluted. you are planning a heist in your underground hideout. implement nefarious as you might, you can't out troll me in these like little else, is still just that. a single, linear concept. a concept usually denoted by a single, linear concept. a concept usually denoted by a single, linear concept. a concept usually denoted by a single, linear concept. a concept usually den
22:33:58 <olsner> 674 sounds like it might have a context
22:34:18 <ais523> hmm, I like the fungot styles other people seem to hate
22:34:18 <fungot> ais523: not that it would actually bother pitying you.
22:35:00 <shachaf> People keep talking about it on the Internet.
22:35:03 <shachaf> Which probably emans it's bad.
22:35:06 <iconmaster> Homestuck is basically the best thing ever.
22:35:14 <Phantom_Hoover> It's very good, but the people who like it are terrible.
22:35:31 <kallisti> examples: elliott, kallisti, Sgeo, iconmaster
22:35:48 <Phantom_Hoover> By which I mean any given set of people who like it will identify some subset of the others as terrible, and the intersection of these is nonempty.
22:36:10 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: I identify everybody as terrible.
22:37:37 <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, keep it up and you'll be a top-flight Homestuck fan in no time.
22:37:58 <Phantom_Hoover> In fact, all you really need to do is accurately identify Homestuck references so you can hate the people who make them.
22:38:11 <elliott> shachaf: Homestuck is a new diet and children's cartoon.
22:38:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Back me up on this.
22:39:29 <shachaf> Is this like a game where you can only press one button to go forward?
22:39:58 <elliott> (Before Phantom_Hoover or someone jumps in, the actual games are just really complicated single buttons.)
22:39:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Why would you have two buttons you can press to go forward?
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22:43:23 <elliott> shachaf: It makes sense if you eat bears.
22:45:05 -!- Klisz has joined.
22:45:28 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: So that you can fast or slow forward, I suppose.
22:45:29 <lambdabot> zzo38: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
22:45:39 <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, here, watch http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=004748
22:45:44 <lambdabot> oerjan said 9h 36m 38s ago: i think your number may be larger than Skewes's number but smaller than Moser's number, as afaict all your functions are still primitive recursive, so cannot get up to
22:46:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: But what about the voice acting lovingly done by 3-year-olds?
22:46:45 <elliott> shachaf: Don't believe the bears.
22:46:52 -!- DCliche has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:47:32 <elliott> That's what they tell you. Then you're buying speakers and dealing drugs on the street. In the "ghetto" "hood".
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23:03:04 <kallisti> a lot of programming language tutorials tend to say something like "comments are ignored"
23:03:42 <kallisti> but it would be more accurate to say something like "comments can be thought of as a single space"
23:03:58 <elliott> Comments aren't whitespace, they just separate tokens.
23:04:02 <elliott> (Except in C, where they actually are whitespace.0
23:04:11 <kallisti> no comments are defined as whitespace in the Haskell Report
23:04:37 * kallisti gets out his language lawyer SPECTACLES.
23:05:34 -!- iconmaster has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
23:06:33 <kallisti> whitespace-> whitestuff {whitestuff}
23:06:34 <kallisti> whitestuff-> whitechar | comment | ncomment
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23:09:15 <oerjan> nearly all programming languages are racist. when did _you_ last see a pl which allowed blackspace?
23:09:33 <oerjan> sorry, african-americanspace
23:09:38 <shachaf> oerjan: That's why I invert the colours in my terminal.
23:09:51 <kallisti> from what I can tell, it technically has to do with how the syntax of function application is not defined as whitespace.
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23:10:46 <oerjan> kallisti: you're babbling again
23:11:25 <kallisti> function application is just an adjacency of two of a particular set of tokens.
23:12:28 <kallisti> if function application were literally defined as whitespace, then (f)x would not be valid.
23:12:46 <olsner> how do you define something as whitespace?
23:12:59 <kallisti> by specifying what whitespace is, and then specifying that this thing involves whitespace.
23:13:02 <oerjan> kallisti: more precisely, it's about separation of lexical analysis and parsing
23:13:27 <oerjan> where whitespace is thrown away before the latter
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23:18:38 <oerjan> hm i was going to say it's octet, but that's something else
23:19:07 <oerjan> an octit is three bits, anyway
23:19:10 <elliott> oerjan: an octet is base-256 :P
23:19:26 <kallisti> oerjan: it's the breasts of cephalopod mollusks obviously.
23:19:34 <elliott> presumably a bintet is base-4
23:19:43 <elliott> so a base-8 digit is a tritet
23:20:34 <oerjan> elliott: actually i think octet is the same as the musical term, so it would be duet and trio
23:21:09 <elliott> duet, trio, quartet, quintet, sextet, septet, octet, nonet and dectet
23:21:15 <oerjan> or possibly duo? those have slightly different meanings
23:21:27 <elliott> that last one is base-1024. perhaps not very useful
23:21:30 <oerjan> or am i confusing with norwegian again
23:21:32 <elliott> oerjan: well ^ is a quote from wp
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23:21:41 <elliott> duo is more informal i think
23:21:51 <elliott> duet ofc can refer to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duet as well
23:23:48 <oerjan> oh heh it seems i looked at that page at _precisely_ the moment wikipedia logged me out
23:24:12 <oerjan> gave some strange layout error
23:25:42 <kallisti> > deriv (\x -> cos x) (x :: Expr)
23:26:09 <oerjan> i got confused by being brought to wiktionary when clicking duo
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23:26:34 <Patashu> check this 3d fractal out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYsbFreUMkg&feature=g-all-lik&context=G27426daFAAAAAAAALAA
23:30:39 <kallisti> Prelude Data.Number.Dif SimpleReflect> deriv cos (x :: Expr)
23:33:03 <kallisti> the only thing I can think of is maybe I broke something when I installed the latest version of GHC from source?
23:33:10 <kallisti> but so far everything has been fine.
23:33:26 <kallisti> I just reinstall numbers and it's still producing the same output.
23:33:33 <oerjan> > deriv cos (x :: Expr)
23:34:20 <shachaf> By any chance did you define x = asin a? :-)
23:34:54 <oerjan> > deriv cos (asin a :: Expr)
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23:35:35 <kallisti> so something is weird with Data.Number.Dif
23:36:05 <oerjan> kallisti: did it use to work before?
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23:36:28 <kallisti> it's been a while since I've installed the new GHC
23:36:30 <elliott> the dif thing hasn't been updated since 2009.
23:36:48 <kallisti> elliott: that's not quite what I meant.
23:37:10 <elliott> are you implying it's a ghc bug
23:37:28 <kallisti> I as implying that the error has something vaguely to do with that module
23:37:44 <kallisti> not that they suddenly uploaded a new version and it broke.
23:37:59 <oerjan> kallisti: so what happens if you do map (deriv cos) [0..]
23:38:32 <kallisti> I get a lot of numbers in (-1,1)
23:38:58 <oerjan> > map (deriv cos) [0..]
23:38:59 <lambdabot> [-0.0,-0.8414709848078965,-0.9092974268256817,-0.1411200080598672,0.7568024...
23:39:06 <kallisti> I get a lot of numbers in (-1,1)
23:39:16 <oerjan> kallisti: but are they the same as abovE?
23:39:47 <oerjan> ok so it works for Double, but not simplereflect?
23:40:02 <oerjan> maybe it _is_ something to do with simplereflect as well
23:40:33 <kallisti> Prelude SimpleReflect Data.Number.Dif> deriv cos (0 :: Expr)
23:40:44 <kallisti> 18:39 < oerjan> ok so it works for Double, but not simplereflect?
23:40:48 <kallisti> I believe that is an accurate statement
23:41:33 <oerjan> presumably it breaks because Expr does not provide a genuine group/ring
23:42:02 <elliott> cos = lift (cycle [cos, negate . sin, negate . cos, sin])
23:42:11 <elliott> lift :: (Num a) => [a -> a] -> Dif a -> Dif a
23:42:12 <elliott> lift (f : _) (C x) = C (f x)
23:42:12 <elliott> lift (f : f') p@(D x x') = D (f x) (x' * lift f' p)
23:42:25 <elliott> see http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/numbers/2009.8.9/doc/html/src/Data-Number-Dif.html
23:43:46 <kallisti> Prelude SimpleReflect Data.Number.Dif> negate b
23:44:14 <kallisti> Prelude SimpleReflect Data.Number.Dif> negate (var "the queen of france")
23:45:14 * kallisti tries to reinstall simplereflect
23:45:36 <elliott> negate = withReduce $ fun "negate" `iOp` negate `dOp` negate
23:45:56 <elliott> kallisti: where is your simplereflect from?
23:45:59 <elliott> that's a quote from the show package
23:46:14 <elliott> i dont know, you installed it
23:46:18 <kallisti> I have a feeling when I reinstall it, it will be fixed.
23:50:30 <kallisti> here's some relevant information:
23:51:14 <kallisti> The Glorious Glasgow Haskell Compilation System, version 7.2.2
23:53:26 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:56:43 <kallisti> anyone with GHC 7.2 want to see if they can reproduce?
23:57:55 <oerjan> kallisti: what do you get from negate (undefined :: Expr) ?
23:58:36 <kallisti> it's basically constant for anything
23:59:21 <kallisti> elliott: what are some things I should have done before compiling and installing GHC?
23:59:28 <kallisti> I basically just removed ghc via apt-get
23:59:43 <oerjan> kallisti: which version of simplereflect was installed?