< 1325808415 310154 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1325808453 907178 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :AUGH I DON'T WANT TO BE SEVENTEEN ARGH < 1325808455 57202 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Client Quit < 1325809086 156750 :NihilistDandy!~NihilistD@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com < 1325809356 356704 :jix!~jix@dronf.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1325809499 782327 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1325809533 565282 :augur!~augur@c-75-74-128-170.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1325809748 562765 :kallisti!~eris@h72.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1325809748 880911 :kallisti!~eris@h72.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net QUIT :Changing host < 1325809749 36682 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake JOIN :#esoteric < 1325809781 798672 :jix!~jix@dronf.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1325810198 606023 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1325812661 266233 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1325812860 233621 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm sorry, you cannot just laugh like that out of the blue. this is a serious channel. < 1325812916 730394 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no TOPIC #esoteric :Official revolting channel of the frequent stupid topic change plurality: the Sequel Prequel, part Three | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ < 1325812933 916947 :DCliche!~Klisz@c-67-176-12-54.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :>:/ < 1325813059 921050 :DCliche!~Klisz@c-67-176-12-54.hsd1.co.comcast.net NICK :Klisz < 1325813119 632877 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1325813126 587624 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-239-196.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1325813372 668938 :DCliche!~Klisz@c-67-176-12-54.hsd1.co.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1325813545 718480 :Klisz!~Klisz@c-67-176-12-54.hsd1.co.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1325813575 236944 :qfr!void@unaffiliated/yw JOIN :#esoteric < 1325814758 665306 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The fully qualified name of the original subroutine magically appears in the global $AUTOLOAD variable of the same package as the AUTOLOAD routine. The name is not passed as an ordinary argument because, er, well, just because, that's why." < 1325815860 338823 :myndzi\!myndzi@c-67-168-184-168.hsd1.wa.comcast.net NICK :myndzi < 1325815887 630143 :derdon!~derdon@pD9E1CB12.dip.t-dialin.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1325816045 856036 :Darth_Cliche!~Klisz@c-67-176-12-54.hsd1.co.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1325816262 549127 :DCliche!~Klisz@c-67-176-12-54.hsd1.co.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1325816759 821332 :Darth_Cliche!~Klisz@c-67-176-12-54.hsd1.co.comcast.net NICK :Klisz < 1325817356 439127 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1325817480 434394 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1325818831 209430 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1325820015 611414 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1325820036 273758 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bleh, I've been neglecting my IOCCC submission and there are only 6 days left for me to rememebr how it works < 1325821402 680601 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1325821456 603831 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1325823442 847723 :myndzi\!myndzi@c-67-168-184-168.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1325823513 633497 :myndzi!myndzi@c-67-168-184-168.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1325824129 924824 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-19-212.dhcp.embarqhsd.net NICK :MSleep < 1325824331 253215 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1325825216 422181 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1325825327 218287 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric : oh < 1325826181 628541 :yorick!~yorick@unaffiliated/yorick QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1325826343 6848 :yorick!~yorick@unaffiliated/yorick JOIN :#esoteric < 1325827349 726559 :Frooxius!~chatzilla@cust-101.ktknet.cz QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.17/2009122204] < 1325827381 219923 :Frooxius!~chatzilla@cust-101.ktknet.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1325827743 674788 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1325828500 753146 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1325830542 171601 :DCliche!~Klisz@c-67-176-12-54.hsd1.co.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1325830756 418686 :Klisz!~Klisz@c-67-176-12-54.hsd1.co.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1325831696 794912 :Klisz!~Klisz@c-67-176-12-54.hsd1.co.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1325831760 334616 :DCliche!~Klisz@c-67-176-12-54.hsd1.co.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1325832041 286475 :DCliche!~Klisz@c-67-176-12-54.hsd1.co.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1325832068 146722 :DCliche!~Klisz@c-67-176-12-54.hsd1.co.comcast.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1325832087 956016 :Klisz!~Klisz@c-67-176-12-54.hsd1.co.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1325832578 61060 :myndzi\!myndzi@c-67-168-184-168.hsd1.wa.comcast.net NICK :myndzi < 1325838421 530857 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1325838573 832921 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1325838749 146515 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1325842501 279485 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell Phantom_Hoover Factoids need not be factually accurate; anyway, there's a dude in the "developer room" ending saying it's programmatically generated, and I think also implying it's rule-based, though I'm not entirely certain about that. < 1325842501 596393 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1325844252 399973 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? wisdom < 1325844263 935505 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :wisdom? ¯\(°_o)/¯ < 1325844294 988268 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls bin < 1325844298 41069 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​? \ @ \ No \ addquote \ allquotes \ calc \ define \ delquote \ etymology \ forget \ fortune \ frink \ google \ hatesgeo \ json \ k \ karma \ karma+ \ karma- \ learn \ log \ logurl \ macro \ marco \ paste \ pastekarma \ pastelog \ pastelogs \ pastenquotes \ pastequotes \ pastewisdom \ pastlog \ ping \ prefixes \ qc \ quote \ quotes \ roll \ toutf8 \ translate \ translatefromto \ translateto \ units \ url \ welcome \ wl \ word \ words \ wtf < 1325844344 686174 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`define wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry < 1325844350 188585 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1325844356 611333 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? wisdom < 1325844360 381591 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :wisdom? ¯\(°_o)/¯ < 1325844363 391055 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1325844371 977091 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, it's learn < 1325844378 914771 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`learn wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry < 1325844383 8258 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I knew that. < 1325844386 701677 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? wisdom < 1325844390 408943 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry < 1325844620 39591 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`define wisdom < 1325844623 633195 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​\ Looking up 127.0.0.1:3128 \ Making HTTP connection to 127.0.0.1:3128 \ Sending HTTP request. \ HTTP request sent; waiting for response. \ Alert!: Unexpected network read error; connection aborted. \ Can't Access `http://google.com/search?q=define:%77%69%73%64%6f%6d' \ Alert!: Unable to access document. \ \ lynx: Can't access startfile < 1325844631 847587 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Very good. < 1325845041 922452 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1325845043 616435 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :awww yeah my bot is officially better than lambdabot < 1325845052 719682 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it checks identification on bot admins. < 1325845138 16357 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know a chess variant called "Pole chess", where there is one extra piece it is a pole. Pole starts off-board, it cannot capture or be captured, but it can go to any vacant cell. < 1325845178 96260 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I played this game once, and I won; neither of us have used the poles but their existence still affected our strategies even though the poles never entered the board. < 1325845455 214700 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, even the rule of the game that are never used can sometimes affect the strategy. < 1325845759 187567 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1325846920 10319 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Reborn elliott. Rebelliott. < 1325846976 253070 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rebelliorn < 1325847015 18178 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ellebott < 1325847015 335177 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. < 1325847027 401329 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: hi < 1325847049 918865 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, hi there. I wanted you for something yesterday but I can't remember what it was :/ < 1325847283 135699 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey QUIT :Quit: The Other Game < 1325847301 727752 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: great < 1325847304 45631 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't remember either < 1325847324 634537 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, that is pretty easy to explain: you weren't in the channel at the time < 1325847388 741815 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whew, IOCCC submission in < 1325847402 941905 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should really test it on more compilers, but I know I won't < 1325847406 647006 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so gcc and clang will have to do < 1325847407 796862 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oh you are competing in IOCCC? Sounds fun :) < 1325847416 808497 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I think I said as much earlier < 1325847422 122519 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :IOCCC is going on? < 1325847427 747236 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yep, only 6 days left < 1325847430 866820 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I don't read /everything/ in this channel. < 1325847431 25479 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a few hours < 1325847438 227673 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is augustss competing? < 1325847438 383902 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you'd better hurry if you want to get an entry in < 1325847449 243222 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor has submitted a portable JIT < 1325847451 366934 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, do you think you might be able to win? < 1325847463 608288 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what sort of submission did you make? < 1325847471 924930 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: "JIT"? More like "at least 6 days in advance" < 1325847472 400514 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :short program < 1325847489 130285 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I wouldn't enter it if I weren't trying to win < 1325847493 907955 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I guess I'll get serious competition < 1325847496 127360 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well okay < 1325847507 651214 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so what does your program do? < 1325847507 807814 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hopefully what I'm doing is unique enough to get through < 1325847514 623969 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know another chess variant, set up the board with sixteen dices of your color, 1=Pawn, 2=Knight, 3=Bishop, 4=Rook, 5=Queen, 6=King. After move, you *must* change the moved piece but is not allowed to change it to the opposite number so that it add to 7. Any player with no 6 is loser. < 1325847519 136269 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the part that people have to try to figure out, isn't it? < 1325847544 841585 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well you said Gregor made a portable JIT for example. I'm just asking for a description on that level of detail < 1325847546 746616 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it was more concerned with the way it does things, rather than what it does < 1325847567 424419 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :It means, the king cannot escape... but you can appoint a new king, or protected by blocking or capturing the attacker. < 1325847569 530593 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :though a portable JIT is quite impressive. < 1325847570 24627 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it involves stack-smashing, portably of course, and not using a language feature that's been used in every submission so far (apart from a couple of cheats) < 1325847589 511721 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can stack-smash portably? < 1325847591 806196 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is news to me < 1325847592 756653 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :It also means bare king loses since you will be forced to move it and therefore to change it. < 1325847594 185539 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1325847597 639930 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just like you can JIT portably < 1325847602 108385 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ofc, it's just smashing values, not code < 1325847608 985697 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, /pretty/ sure it is undefined behaviour to stack smash < 1325847623 545611 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does a whole load of undefined behaviour deliberately < 1325847630 682115 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it isn't portable < 1325847632 29336 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :A large majority of ioccc winners have involved undefined behaviour < 1325847632 823640 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I started, and then I just kept on going < 1325847634 291331 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is no castling, en-passan, promotion. < 1325847640 201183 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: it's portable if it runs on most machines, isn't it? < 1325847647 756182 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not strictly conforming, but that's something entirely different < 1325847659 522697 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I would say portable to mean strictly conforming in the context of IOCCC yeah < 1325847667 210610 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't < 1325847669 904480 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1325847671 215552 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :based on what they've accepted in the past < 1325847672 800444 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: anything more portable than mullender is given serious consideration < 1325847675 139096 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well okay < 1325847681 565954 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet, mullender? < 1325847689 217737 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or perhaps that later flight simulator using motif < 1325847695 441683 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right < 1325847698 450780 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1325847705 893022 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well true, I forgot about that < 1325847708 669599 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't know mullender? < 1325847711 221089 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :it wasn't exactly portable < 1325847714 141476 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the flight sim) < 1325847723 741744 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet, if I do I don't remember the name of it < 1325847726 793455 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :tell me what it is < 1325847739 289908 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm terrible at remembering names) < 1325847741 824700 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.ioccc.org/1984/mullender.c < 1325847765 638388 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1325847776 161185 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet, which machine? < 1325847795 190810 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :mullender? vax/pdp polyglot. < 1325847798 802484 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1325847820 497682 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet, how did they respond to that one? reject it? < 1325847836 761737 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Every file on their site is a winner. < 1325847849 495129 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :winner for rules abuse or whatnot? < 1325847849 813865 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh okay, thought they published all < 1325847851 238107 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1325847893 423703 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet, hm I wonder if gcc would accept that sort of stuff... < 1325847901 285994 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure < 1325847908 978610 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :really? hm < 1325847924 294263 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone ported it to geordi/linux/i686 < 1325847929 248991 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet, I would expect it to end up in .data rather than .text < 1325847941 62712 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means it would be marked NX and thus not be executable < 1325847952 754910 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least on x86-64 < 1325847977 379982 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :It might not work on amd64 then < 1325848014 100242 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor on modern CPUs at all. You can do NX on anything that supports x86-64 even in 32-bit mode (though you need to turn on PAE for that) < 1325848023 610740 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :it depends on where gcc places it I guess < 1325848035 680232 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only if the system decides to use NX < 1325848048 62410 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well linux does. Don't think you can turn it off < 1325848052 23828 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe Windows, for example, allows turning it off < 1325848068 81414 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you can force it off for a given program < 1325848075 311138 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :some compatibility personality thingy < 1325848089 162792 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc < 1325848091 321800 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : ais523, I would say portable to mean strictly conforming in the context of IOCCC yeah < 1325848096 861299 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Thus outlawing about 50% of IOCCC winners < 1325848102 933711 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I realised I was wrong a few lines below :P < 1325848109 731434 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :More like 90% < 1325848113 236055 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : Jafet, how did they respond to that one? reject it? < 1325848113 394327 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : Every file on their site is a winner. < 1325848117 424210 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Changing the rules. < 1325848122 657918 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, right < 1325848129 15763 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: one thing I find really ironic is that they updated the abuse of the standards category to allow abuse of C99 < 1325848132 28577 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's ironic because C11 is out now < 1325848139 397762 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha < 1325848146 136333 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :gcc compiles C11 now? < 1325848160 186542 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think so < 1325848170 793299 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :C11 is really new, it was released right near the end of 2011 < 1325848180 968506 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's right near the start of 2012 right now < 1325848196 669064 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet, that would surprise me. It might support a few of the new things if they happened to be available as gcc extensions < 1325848197 937430 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, they tend to use gcc as the standard < 1325848210 680759 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: a few of the new things happen to be gcc extensions already < 1325848214 686485 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as usual < 1325848216 309945 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I believe gnu99 is the current default < 1325848223 286954 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :things tend to get standardised if every existing compiler does them already < 1325848225 589520 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, right, I haven't really checked in detail what is new. < 1325848239 550240 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :17:11:27: What time zone is he pretending to be in? < 1325848239 706406 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :17:49:47: Ngevd: Elliott time, I'd think. < 1325848239 706605 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bingo. < 1325848243 901306 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: gcc 4.6 does -std=c1x < 1325848244 852770 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC. < 1325848251 540036 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1325848262 996789 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: option introduced before they knew what the standard would be called? < 1325848264 457826 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I can't check, I'm on an old system atm < 1325848275 498187 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :18:03:09: the history of my ~/tmp directory is intriguing. the most visible thing is how i have named all those "tmp"-ish directories. < 1325848275 656736 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :18:04:53: some of the form tmp/YYYYMMDD/ (e.g. 20080801, 20090616, etc.), some of the form _/N/ (ranging from 0 to 5), some of the form old/, old2/, old3/ (i'm glad that i don't have old4/ yet), etc. < 1325848275 812754 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :18:05:34: some of them contain (mutually incompatible) a.out files. < 1325848280 184629 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir: At least your mess is confined to ~/tmp. < 1325848284 108311 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Well, okay, it might not be.) < 1325848292 230886 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: release released before they knew that, I think < 1325848294 810260 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well, gcc 4.6 is quite recent, and they probably figured it would be between 2011 and 2019 < 1325848298 182113 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's probably not very complete yet < 1325848302 672087 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I guess they felt safe about the name < 1325848313 343397 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(iirc gcc 4.6 was released 2011) < 1325848314 966842 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't call it -std=c11 even if the gods told me it would be released under that name. < 1325848323 730091 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because you're still implementing a draft standard, not C11 itself. < 1325848324 898474 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I almost wrote "this year" before I remembered it is 2012) < 1325848365 804560 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : lifthrasiir: At least your mess is confined to ~/tmp. <-- I have a similar situation, though ~ itself gets a bit messy too sometimes < 1325848370 691322 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I try to avoid that though < 1325848381 507487 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: This is why you use the elliott-standard organisation system. < 1325848393 72499 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, subdirs other than ~/tmp and ~/Desktop are in perfect order though :P < 1325848395 21573 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Admittedly, the main mess-avoider there is that shells start in ~/tmp :p < 1325848418 56606 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, hah < 1325848437 506618 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I use actual /tmp for temporaries < 1325848444 837663 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's amusing to look in /var/tmp sometimes < 1325848449 79165 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, my ~/tmp is more like /var/tmp < 1325848451 378864 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I store files there which are temporary but need to survive reboots < 1325848458 301553 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1325848459 172841 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of them, was left there for over a year < 1325848463 461428 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1325848468 335144 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I finally did what I wanted to do with it a few days ago < 1325848485 871460 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :-rw-r--r-- 1 ais523 ais523 32956 2010-10-31 14:24 Königsberg_bridges.png < 1325848493 439543 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm I have test.c test2.c ... test7.c in ~ < 1325848498 193268 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to check what they are for < 1325848517 309294 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh nooo, not more Ngevd code debugging in the logs. < 1325848521 152303 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :char (*(*f)(int,int))[7]; < 1325848522 578969 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :wut? < 1325848526 227005 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would be acceptable if he actually integrated the suggestions that didn't directly fix his bug from last time. < 1325848527 178067 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that even valid? < 1325848537 840710 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me try to decode it < 1325848543 583286 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :So instead you have to mentally patch(1) the code with your previous fixes to understand wtf he's done to it this time. < 1325848552 379532 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, how do you define an array of function pointers in C without using a typedef? < 1325848559 359695 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that is what I tried to do and failed < 1325848568 513921 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :char (*f[7])(int,int); < 1325848569 780563 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :methinks < 1325848575 767287 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1325848576 877875 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :declaration follows use < 1325848578 463572 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly < 1325848579 618431 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(*f[7])(42,42) < 1325848582 771408 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pointer to function that takes two integer arguments and returns a pointer to an array of 7 chars < 1325848584 712193 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is Vorpal's line < 1325848590 338785 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: right, so not valid < 1325848594 177924 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1325848601 55844 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :declaration follows use is actually a really simple rule to apply < 1325848605 574339 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the [7] goes after the function name < 1325848606 563879 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1325848620 996728 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :char (*(f[7]))(int,int); is what I make it < 1325848627 731742 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets try that < 1325848629 37529 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1325848635 573555 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is probably equivalent to elliott's, because of operator precedence < 1325848655 552620 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that compiles < 1325848704 803729 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cdecl.org translates elliott's suggestion to "declare f as array 7 of pointer to function (int, int) returning char" < 1325848712 277248 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and mine to the same thing < 1325848725 733081 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1325848871 849873 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :DEAR PEOPLE PROPOSING EDITS ON SO: You're not meant to *fix* the grammar of "thanks" lines, you're meant to *remove* them! < 1325848908 735116 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1325848992 208001 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: wouldn't it be great if you had like data Expr = Lit Integer | ... and then could say < 1325848994 777292 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :eval :: Expr -> Integer < 1325848997 193756 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :eval . Lit = id < 1325849002 298537 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :as one of the clauses < 1325849015 66717 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be great, i refuse to believe being able to use compositions on the LHS wouldn't be graet < 1325849018 925810 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :great < 1325849024 670240 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :grate < 1325849128 482787 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :something like that is a thing i really want a lot < 1325849201 623866 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Expr = Lit Integer | Add Expr Expr < 1325849203 157224 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :eval . Lit = id < 1325849208 906721 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(eval .) . Add = liftA2 (+) eval eval < 1325849212 39758 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the most beautifulest < 1325849212 991199 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1325849221 36743 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :is Phantom_Hoover 17 now < 1325849227 900440 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yikes / yikes < 1325849228 59098 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1325849228 376111 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. < 1325849248 39102 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: ok nice knowing you /ignored forever < 1325849258 980274 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie said 1h 52m 11s ago: Factoids need not be factually accurate; < 1325849282 3654 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The definition is that they're not factual at all, IIRC? < 1325849300 43834 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I think that definition appeared about ~30 seconds before it started meaning "small fact" instead. < 1325849313 24656 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prescriptivists talk about the Great 30 Seconds of Peace and Meaning. < 1325849346 203352 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what a Great 30 Seconds they were < 1325849358 975018 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so much PEaace, and MEaning too < 1325849993 910578 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1325850664 26938 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1325851860 539901 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1325853178 197777 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1325853728 383333 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1325853992 732603 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :HAPPY BIRTHDAY DO YOU, HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOOOOOOU, HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO PHANTOM_HOOVER, HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOOOU < 1325854132 774671 :derdon!~derdon@pD9E1C4AA.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1325854201 229775 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no TOPIC #esoteric :Official revolting channel of the frequent stupid topic change plurality, the Prequel: The Birthday Menace | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ < 1325854630 525486 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey oerjan, given two distinct types A and B that you are allowed to choose yourself, can you implement foo :: (A ~ B) => Void < 1325854641 126400 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, it's easy with A = (), B = Void < 1325854649 258494 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but choosing Void as one of them is cheating :) < 1325854705 695602 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo = unsafeCoerce < 1325854710 399457 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dunno, won't ghc complain if i choose two concrete types which are obviously not ~ ? < 1325854753 623020 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has never used a ~ in his own program, so may not be the right person to ask anyway
< 1325854820 531339 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know what A ~ B really allows you to do, especially if it's false. < 1325854873 773105 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm you know what I want. < 1325854882 579585 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :a Perl 5 JIT compiler. < 1325855060 703366 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :the question is.... < 1325855064 870800 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh, how do you parse Perl? < 1325855084 208240 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't. < 1325855088 938403 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can execute Perl. < 1325855095 243889 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, obviously. < 1325855103 34063 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I write perl code because it's aesthetically beautiful < 1325855105 500478 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :not because it /runs/. < 1325855110 810194 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can execute Perl. < 1325855113 703237 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't parse Perl. < 1325855120 404816 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you're a Turing Machine. < 1325855128 145384 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you are Turing Machine, the process looks exactly like executing Perl. < 1325855128 940599 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*are a < 1325855132 655128 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :..... < 1325855133 963749 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :what. < 1325855143 268412 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1325855144 536264 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1325855152 134850 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, he means that parsing perl without executing it can't be done < 1325855154 294636 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, Perl 6 largely originated from the fact that nobody else has ever successfully written a Perl 5 interpreter, as it is defined entirely by its mammoth implementation. < 1325855154 965917 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :right. < 1325855159 625572 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, not with a UTM < 1325855168 833572 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :still imagine... < 1325855170 261070 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :So: Tough. < 1325855170 736685 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :perl 5 JIT < 1325855189 723301 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :why on earth < 1325855202 192170 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I like perl 5 but don't like that it's slow. < 1325855243 528258 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it might be possible to JIT it in some limited fashion I guess. Probably rather tricky and also not worth the work < 1325855257 231519 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :If my experience with kallisti's code is any indicator, Perl isn't slow. kallisti's algorithms are slow. < 1325855272 273504 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1325855288 995204 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well perl is slow as well < 1325855307 888875 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: what experience? what algorithms? :P < 1325855342 319002 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: words, that factoring thing. < 1325855363 27324 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :words is pretty reasonably fast. how would you make it faster? < 1325855396 59095 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was the generation script. I don't remember what was stupid, but something was stupid. < 1325855399 904410 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`words --portuguese 50 < 1325855407 349359 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :gazedorarifíciar fosfomeçais afarem coralizareis apolar deprimente lantine desencada mimento deslizares quariarás estregá acharpedras arrotado reológica enlaçarei atono imbranslapsulti susaracara crimina evas velmejas ensionariá apanhá dista bambeltancasseis descorrebera pelarias abrido expecerem balação acenço aviamos cilizará navassem fortarem cachegar desenjoa opelão ananejei desproxaria frescorar < 1325855410 393827 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :you disliked the regex < 1325855413 371682 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :which was... kind of essential. < 1325855430 105231 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes I shouldn't have written that in perl. < 1325855459 260703 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mainly didn't like that it was perl. < 1325855491 859346 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, is the generation script slow? < 1325855521 823266 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but I don't think it's because of the algorithm. < 1325855523 642860 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway regular expressions is not essential to anything, it is just convenient < 1325855536 85309 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: I am dead sure it is. < 1325855537 946115 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, what is the complexity of the algorithm? < 1325855544 528906 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem is not your language, the problem is almost never your language. < 1325855556 96144 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Perl regex is essential. it's also faster than handrolling the equivalent code that doesn't exist in perl libraries. < 1325855565 300439 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless the best algorithm for the job has an exponentiation in a bad place, or the data set is over ~10 gigabytes, the problem is never your language. < 1325855573 244820 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, sure, but that is perl < 1325855576 984732 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is a) file IO b) perl < 1325855577 142568 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :who said it had to be perl? < 1325855585 918022 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: it doesn't < 1325855594 996139 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1325855599 358958 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes? < 1325855599 993544 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you look I above I say < 1325855603 717543 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :"in Perl regex is essential" < 1325855606 738847 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then go on to explain why that is < 1325855611 517398 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus the relevance... < 1325855614 211330 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1325855636 58772 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, anyway, what is the complexity of your algorithm? < 1325855637 645929 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway I don't know what the complexity is because I'm bad at that. < 1325855644 470868 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1325855676 221253 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm suuure it isn't the algorithm. < 1325855694 785439 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well, why don't you calculate the complexity of the algorithm? < 1325855710 227938 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :also: why not just profile it and see where it spends time. < 1325855720 202256 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if such tools are available for perl) < 1325855741 80052 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :...really, how am I going to make "loop through file by line, take first word, split into grams and store in a table" faster (in perl)? < 1325855742 31305 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: ...Because it's not my code? < 1325855774 220547 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fair enough < 1325855794 479959 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, well, which bit was slow? < 1325855794 636400 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: http://prog21.dadgum.com/52.html < 1325855809 549221 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: Before complaining that it's a different language starting with P, consider how gigantic a constant factor you would need for that to matter. < 1325855822 763862 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem is not the language. < 1325855827 841207 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(by which I mean implementation.) < 1325855850 876628 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: before you preemptively say snide things, consider maybe waiting for a reason to say them. < 1325855878 240965 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nah. < 1325855887 475282 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1325855914 684993 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe if it was just snide, rather than snide and factual. < 1325855956 334148 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, Perl's internals are pretty well-optimised, to my knowledge. < 1325855957 297812 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric : http://sprunge.us/fFYM analyze the "algorithm" < 1325855968 587451 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, I would but I can't read perl < 1325855969 30616 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you so desire < 1325855994 91340 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, then I doubt you can read my perl. :P < 1325856004 596684 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, why not just profile it? < 1325856016 461417 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :because that doesn't say anything about the complexity. < 1325856024 937007 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :the profile will tell you that it "takes a while" < 1325856033 757505 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti has no idea how profiling works. < 1325856038 973492 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1325856040 720011 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, he thinks that algorithm = big-O complexity. < 1325856048 177149 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1325856056 339890 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1325856059 513956 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :that algorithm is not < 1325856061 794429 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :big-O complexity < 1325856064 213429 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I say "your algorithm is the problem", you say "profiling my algorithm wouldn't tell me its ocmplexity". < 1325856065 680895 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is a seperate entity. < 1325856071 161230 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*complexity < 1325856089 539744 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, the repeated substrs look suspicious. < 1325856108 422158 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And a hash table is probably not ideal there; I believe the dictionaries you are using are sorted, and so you could use a trie. < 1325856125 488537 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, wait, is substr "is string in other string"? < 1325856127 154487 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would be much better, since you could keep a pointer. < 1325856130 949540 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: No, it's slicing. < 1325856134 274764 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1325856173 981847 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :perl really looks ugly < 1325856214 604119 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it is due to the abundance of $ in front of words. < 1325856225 445933 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(mostly) < 1325856270 191765 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, when slicing in perl does it copy the slice or just give you a pointer to a section of the same string? < 1325856278 802399 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, is it copy on write (or immutable even) < 1325856287 461686 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure it would need to copy. < 1325856291 86442 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know. < 1325856299 226317 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :because perl strings are not completely immutable. < 1325856304 506490 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but... who knows. < 1325856315 842631 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=4688 OK, substr should be the fastest way. < 1325856319 648768 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, how large are your data sets and how much time do they take? < 1325856366 749564 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :gigabytes. hours. < 1325856382 419232 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, 1 gb? 10 gb? 100 gb? < 1325856397 971928 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, complaining about your language implementation before either (a) analysing the algorithm or (b) profiling should be punishable by firing squad. < 1325856405 901344 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless it's PHP. < 1325856417 778060 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :can i just run into a perl room and show the code and say fix this for some anonymous individual? < 1325856425 353627 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1325856428 405094 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1325856440 446252 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't think of what an inefficient trie implementation would like in Perl < 1325856445 408393 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :considering that there are 2 data structures. < 1325856452 782785 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :and references. < 1325856463 944666 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, do you have a really really really slow disk? < 1325856473 894774 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really know actually. < 1325856476 114807 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I very much doubt it would be IO-bound) < 1325856491 588202 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :based on resource meters it would appear to be CPU bound as the disk usage meter never hit max < 1325856495 840429 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :@hoogle many < 1325856496 157707 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Text.ParserCombinators.ReadP many :: ReadP a -> ReadP [a] < 1325856496 316130 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Control.Applicative many :: Alternative f => f a -> f [a] < 1325856496 472848 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Text.ParserCombinators.ReadP many1 :: ReadP a -> ReadP [a] < 1325856498 736365 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :@hoogle choice < 1325856498 894881 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Text.ParserCombinators.ReadP choice :: [ReadP a] -> ReadP a < 1325856499 93329 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Text.ParserCombinators.ReadPrec choice :: [ReadPrec a] -> ReadPrec a < 1325856499 249655 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Text.Parsec.Combinator choice :: Stream s m t => [ParsecT s u m a] -> ParsecT s u m a < 1325856518 749555 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :my hard drive 480 Mbps < 1325856525 110748 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :according to its description online < 1325856527 210941 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a rather old disk here, it takes 30 minutes to copy 10 GB of data from it, and that is in the form of multiple files, so some seeking would be involved. < 1325856539 552570 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :so hm, very doubtful you have a worse disk than that < 1325856592 570262 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, well that number doesn't mean much if it isn't from a source independent of the manufacture. < 1325856599 469651 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :manufacturer* < 1325856601 373236 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1325856605 322048 :derdon!~derdon@pD9E1C4AA.dip.t-dialin.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1325856617 227552 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :@hoogle [(Int,a)] -> [a] < 1325856617 466050 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prelude snd :: (a, b) -> b < 1325856617 624362 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Data.Tuple snd :: (a, b) -> b < 1325856617 780831 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :System.Random randomRs :: (Random a, RandomGen g) => (a, a) -> g -> [a] < 1325856620 164441 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: halp < 1325856637 264239 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, anyway I recommend you profile the code, it might help < 1325856644 139706 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: What're you after? < 1325856650 325027 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, and also see elliott's suggestions above < 1325856672 79991 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: it's not even an issue I'm concerned with now, since I already have all the data. < 1325856677 479677 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1325856684 982177 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric : oerjan: halp < 1325856688 381792 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What are you looking for? < 1325856699 613069 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: unsafeCoerce . return . head . reverse . map snd < 1325856705 176162 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :this entire discussion was brought about by elliott complaining about my algorithms. < 1325856724 416722 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t unsafeCoerce < 1325856725 209627 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not in scope: `unsafeCoerce' < 1325856726 456902 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, one advantage with C code is that it is usually easy to figure out why it is slow. < 1325856763 860535 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to the few layers of abstraction you can pretty much figure out what is going on, when stuff is copied and so on. < 1325856777 428296 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t sortBy < 1325856777 586790 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, what happens if you unsafeCoerce to Void? < 1325856778 260416 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall a. (a -> a -> Ordering) -> [a] -> [a] < 1325856786 946774 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(of course C has a lot of disadvantages as well) < 1325856812 74768 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t Void < 1325856812 708877 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not in scope: data constructor `Void' < 1325856817 185812 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: are you looking for something like map snd . sortBy (comparing fst) < 1325856818 295346 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh, < 1325856820 553971 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric ::i Void < 1325856820 710079 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose you'd just get some garbage which called itself a Void. < 1325856823 37729 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :or what < 1325856828 508045 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm guess it doesn't have that < 1325856841 792615 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: here's the file sizes since you were curious. http://sprunge.us/aOEW < 1325856842 752036 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, it's not implemented in the standard library IIRC, but you can define it. < 1325856849 976233 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, ah right < 1325856862 290114 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :newtype Void = Void Void < 1325856889 192638 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, well, since it doesn't expose anything that might inspect the values of it I would guess it doesn't do much harm= < 1325856890 24166 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-12-141.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1325856890 342029 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-12-141.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Changing host < 1325856890 498240 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1325856891 772229 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/=/?/ < 1325856981 813316 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: so, 49 GBs I believe < 1325856998 140294 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, and in total it took a few hours? < 1325857012 879886 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : oerjan: halp <-- what is that supposed to do? < 1325857015 614775 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I generally let it run while sleeping. :P < 1325857024 880400 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahhh.. so this is the random word generating project :D < 1325857028 379146 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes a few hours. maybe 3-4 < 1325857046 334942 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: that's part of it, yes. < 1325857052 285796 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you some crazy motherfuckers < 1325857056 451483 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh, not worth dealing with that issue, it should be IO-bound though. < 1325857073 558236 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1325857095 258341 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you have >49 GB RAM and load it all into RAM before < 1325857141 49069 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :which I doubt < 1325857155 318081 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1325857156 429616 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: i cannot help you when you're not even asking a question < 1325857165 986540 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I don't load the individual files into RAM either. < 1325857172 148943 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1325857184 920380 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, I know someone who has 32 GB RAM in her desktop though, not so far to 40 GB from there. < 1325857193 540018 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, 49* < 1325857203 792774 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t (uncurry replicate =<<) < 1325857204 586368 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall b. [(Int, b)] -> [b] < 1325857214 299136 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: ^ that one fits your type, at least < 1325857219 960546 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :the difference between for(<$f>) and while(<$f>) is the difference between reading line by line and reading the entire file into memory. < 1325857230 364517 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, huh? < 1325857232 669360 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :....except reverse the order that I said those. < 1325857238 8198 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :while reads line by line. < 1325857247 796853 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: perl stuff < 1325857250 216671 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, really? That is stupid, it doesn't make sense that it has that effect < 1325857252 317380 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck perl < 1325857252 954812 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: sorry back < 1325857257 913342 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i wanted what monqy said yeah :P < 1325857261 597185 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: that's because you don't know why it is. < 1325857272 389931 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : newtype Void = Void Void < 1325857274 450868 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*data Void < 1325857300 215974 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, oh? < 1325857305 976888 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, why is it then < 1325857307 443453 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : elliott, one advantage with C code is that it is usually easy to figure out why it is slow. < 1325857307 761685 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : due to the few layers of abstraction you can pretty much figure out what is going on, when stuff is copied and so on. < 1325857309 863235 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Not true. < 1325857313 600598 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :True, but that's a Haskell 2010 thing, so the old one is still relevant. < 1325857318 342426 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, oh? < 1325857325 318096 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, this is Vorpal, so making anything implicit is asking for trouble. < 1325857335 45227 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Cache locality, blah blah blah, all the things that matter to people who really need optimisation. < 1325857339 933404 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: http://perldoc.perl.org/perldata.html#Context < 1325857342 233048 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :C abstracts memory too much, basically. < 1325857346 913985 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hey, it even uses <> as the example. < 1325857352 762160 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :wasn't expecting that. < 1325857354 133926 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: You realise as soon as you write "import Data.List" you're invalid Haskell 98? < 1325857357 996182 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't even have hierarchical modules. < 1325857369 390758 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, the parsing rule in 98 that 2010 changed was the one that every implementation had done from the start. < 1325857387 611870 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell 2010 is one of the most minor, status-quo language revisions ever. < 1325857392 320737 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, hm, good point. Though I wasn't thinking about it on that level, more about "does the language represent this in some way that is slow for the purpose I'm using it" sort of thing < 1325857396 447787 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there anything /wrong/ with the newtype definition? < 1325857404 933413 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Well, no. But it's ugly. < 1325857453 953967 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, doesn't say anything about for/while there? < 1325857474 216743 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: oh well... for takes its argument as a list, while as a scalar. < 1325857479 668631 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1325857498 815942 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :if and while are "boolean context" which is just a special case of scalar context. < 1325857509 476601 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, I'm having problems seeing how <$f> can type as BOTH of those though < 1325857512 847431 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :the argument to for is going to be list context, obviously. < 1325857519 812461 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_> type? < 1325857525 105657 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1325857534 529900 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :does perl even have a type system? < 1325857534 847876 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1325857539 484523 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :not perl 5, no. < 1325857541 861949 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1325857542 971862 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1325857544 440692 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :kind of. < 1325857547 652508 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :dynamic typing? < 1325857556 376494 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and lots of implicit casts? < 1325857565 800849 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's "lists" and "scalars" and "hashes" and "refs" and "filehandles" and.... but it's dynamically typed. < 1325857603 225398 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1325857609 871068 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :a kind of system < 1325857628 48985 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's some casting but not always. it's entirely possible to write a subroutine that does two completely different things based on its context. < 1325857638 73464 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :"casting" isn't really the word. < 1325857689 432455 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1325857690 545644 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :you basically have this dynamically scoped variable that every stack frame can access that tells it what its calling context wants. < 1325857700 410505 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then do something different based on this. < 1325857709 265294 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch, that is just a mess < 1325857724 823359 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :-shrug- it's pretty well-documented, at least in the standard libraries. < 1325857730 874425 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :and most CPAN libraries as far as I've seen. < 1325857736 542122 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes but it is an ugly mechanism < 1325857756 95718 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and stupid too < 1325857778 533185 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's certainly convenient, if you understand how it works. < 1325857800 37769 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe < 1325857813 167457 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, anyway would for(my $line = <$f>) even work? < 1325857817 597828 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, would it run? < 1325857819 846198 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1325857821 546315 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1325857833 92084 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, is <$f> considered a generator expression or something then? < 1325857874 934350 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm < 1325857887 149778 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's just an operator. < 1325857905 539922 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :in other words I don't think evaluating <$f> as a list is going to do anything lazily. < 1325857917 973059 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but as a scalar it's like a getline function. < 1325857945 259906 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :this language is crazy < 1325857953 905257 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :!perl for("test") { print } < 1325857956 165095 :EgoBot!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :test < 1325857970 529934 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yeah your above code will grab the first line and store it in $line, and the iterate exactly once < 1325857976 21487 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/the/then/ < 1325857995 720948 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1325858002 61048 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that makes more sense < 1325858016 865706 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, I though you said it would read the whole file? < 1325858019 322472 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :because a scalar value in list context is a 1-element list. < 1325858026 612365 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it will, if you evaluate it in list context < 1325858029 588360 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :my $line = <$f> < 1325858031 690580 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :is not list context < 1325858034 466443 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1325858038 653857 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :my @line = <$f> < 1325858041 387554 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be, however. < 1325858068 766164 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: hello < 1325858129 182300 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I promise it all makes surprising amounts of sense. < 1325858133 189276 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, that is a really ugly way to do typing, because that seems to be what it does. You have to tell every time you use something if it is a list or a scalar, rather than making it have a type < 1325858154 94084 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless I misunderstood how $ and @ work < 1325858189 623517 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ and @ are like... variable types. < 1325858202 460375 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? < 1325858210 518853 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there are more than 2 kinds of values, obviously. < 1325858216 190664 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean you can do $foo = ... and then later read @foo? < 1325858221 92604 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, no. < 1325858224 104143 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :are they different namespaces? < 1325858229 666856 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :@foo and $foo are different variables < 1325858230 21795 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you meant: do faq ft todo yow < 1325858234 758917 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1325858278 434983 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :the context arises from the assignment operator, which bases its context on what kind of variable you're assigning to. < 1325858296 649426 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :@list = ... is list context, $list[0] = ... is scalar < 1325858296 808353 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :No module "= ... is list context, $list[0] = ... is scalar" loaded < 1325858336 861390 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, and scalar can be anything? integer, floating point, struct, and so on? What about strings? < 1325858337 179438 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :the sigil tells you the context of the assignment operator, basically. except when you're assigning to a list of variables, then it's always list context. < 1325858344 630492 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: yes strings are scalar. < 1325858350 180494 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, and structs? < 1325858357 238764 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, references. < 1325858367 351524 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :which can reference hash tables and lists. that's the equivalent of "structs" in Perl. < 1325858378 555271 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1325858410 47061 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, so can you store lists in lists? < 1325858427 126908 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you can store references to lists in lists. < 1325858430 417951 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :lists can only contain scalars. < 1325858430 893159 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1325858437 759459 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise all sanity would be lost... < 1325858447 710868 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : you mean you can do $foo = ... and then later read @foo? < 1325858448 664335 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : @foo and $foo are different variables < 1325858453 985198 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can do @foo = ... and read $foo, though. < 1325858460 202032 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, what does that do? < 1325858469 35748 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought he said they were different namespaces? < 1325858470 145910 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's maximum index or something. I forget. < 1325858474 651365 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :so $foo and @foo could coexist? < 1325858475 800858 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh you're thinking of $#foo < 1325858481 435507 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1325858486 74532 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, can $foo and @foo coexist? < 1325858486 983153 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought $foo was scalar @foo if @foo existed. < 1325858493 151900 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't believe so. < 1325858506 205089 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, so they aren't really different variables then as you claimed < 1325858520 69766 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :!perl use v5.10; my $x = 2; my @x = (1,2); say @x; say $x; < 1325858520 585449 :EgoBot!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :12 \ 2 < 1325858522 810918 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :no they are. < 1325858537 453949 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, so they can coexist then? < 1325858540 73878 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep. < 1325858540 230056 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1325858595 918779 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, so $x is not actually a scalar variable named x, but a variable named $x? < 1325858613 370647 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a variable named $x that holds a scalar value < 1325858617 414638 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1325858624 558842 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :the sigil does enforce a constraint on its value. < 1325858626 463161 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 should really step in here, since IIRC kallisti has been wrong about Perl variables at least once. < 1325858636 310086 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I am not wrong here. < 1325858644 959729 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :(so reassuring) < 1325858655 526863 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway I just showed that I'm not wrong. < 1325858658 139552 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :via Perl code. < 1325858672 139354 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION was not arguing.
< 1325858674 21823 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :de facto standard, here. come on. < 1325858698 195791 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh you're saying I might mess up maybe or something. < 1325858700 45399 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :MORE PREEMPTION < 1325858742 166067 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: the variable *foo contains a symbol table entry with all of the different kinds of foos. that's always fun. < 1325858748 990293 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not commonly used in perl 5 though, now that there's references. < 1325858775 444757 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1325858815 429264 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :*foo was basically how you did referency back before references existed. < 1325858914 2599 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :!perl use v5.10; my $x = 2; my @x = (1,2); say *x{ARRAY}; say *x{SCALAR}; #awww yeah ugly mostly-obsolete shit < 1325858914 716052 :EgoBot!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​\ SCALAR(0x7f562d13cb98) < 1325858923 317591 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hmmm < 1325858948 993726 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, that wouldn't work like a pointer anyway? < 1325858997 731016 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :*foo is like a table of references < 1325858997 887370 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Russian composer, singer and recently a record producer. Also an actor in one movie. < 1325858998 43753 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :In my free time (when I have no tour or concert-like events) I usually read some technical literature about modern programming languages and trying to write some useless tools. It's just a hobby, nothing more." < 1325859001 62479 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :references work like pointers. < 1325859002 685817 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought it was a joke but it seems to... not be. < 1325859011 210036 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: cool < 1325859024 984675 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmitry_Malikov < 1325859025 498497 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://github.com/dmalikov < 1325859035 137178 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: references is one of the nice things about perl compared to ruby and perl, I'd say. < 1325859038 701056 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: heh, nice. < 1325859039 334866 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION can't figure out whether the guy is just dedicated to the fake identity or not.
< 1325859055 277639 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :"USELESS PATHETIC WRONG" < 1325859057 220986 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"USELESS PATHETIC WRONG" is a really good project description. < 1325859057 696299 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1325859058 647889 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, well, I don't like python and I never used ruby < 1325859060 592619 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :so *shrug* < 1325859078 895012 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: Yeah, Perl is nicer than Ruby and Perl. < 1325859083 573635 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, perl looks worse than python though. At least python code doesn't look inherently ugly < 1325859091 155882 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: is that... oh that wasn't sarcasm was it. < 1325859095 689443 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, perl is nicer than perl? < 1325859102 549010 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, typo or intentional? < 1325859109 460060 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1325859110 453681 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1325859121 62599 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION should proofread more
< 1325859123 80887 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/perl/python/ < 1325859136 181187 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"references is one of the nice things about python compared to ruby and perl, I'd say" < 1325859140 860311 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, oh right you did that typo too, I read it as python though < 1325859141 17543 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Way to go, you broke it some more < 1325859141 335320 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1325859164 722179 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION desperately tries to find evidence that this guy is actually that guy.
< 1325859171 818582 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: ask him < 1325859174 514571 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :best evidence < 1325859188 228365 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: That would be so awkward. < 1325859201 569501 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :"hi are you really the guy" "yes" "cool!" < 1325859202 203751 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :* elliott can't figure out whether the guy is just dedicated to the fake identity or not. <-- is the guy claiming to be the same one? < 1325859210 755357 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean there could be another person with the same name < 1325859226 691200 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :also why is github not loading for me today < 1325859237 249065 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION should actually try to power through some Project Euler sometime.
< 1325859246 22881 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: http://stackoverflow.com/users/570689/ < 1325859256 522129 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I can't check if he is claiming to be the same guy since the god damn website isn't loading < 1325859283 559356 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well, that is possible, who knows < 1325859316 260766 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: honestly I find Python code semantically uglier because of how simplistic the language actually is. Lack of symbols doesn't really imply pretty code to me anymore. < 1325859324 842190 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well he is russian < 1325859339 199499 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, so you don't like Lisp? < 1325859340 151081 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"WTF?! This is such a joke, I hope:) Dvitry Malikov - a programmer." < 1325859340 626845 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: this is probably because I've been programming way too much perl. < 1325859350 293644 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I like lisp, but I do find it hard to read. < 1325859352 880035 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Translating of "WTF?! Это такой прикол, я надеюсь :) Двитрий Маликов - программист.", a Tweet followed by a link to the profile.) < 1325859355 932650 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Translation < 1325859363 658543 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, I'm satisfied, it's not him :P < 1325859368 460860 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably some other guy with the same name. < 1325859370 879540 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Making a joke. < 1325859378 761301 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it really should be him. < 1325859389 709267 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I'm sure if I spent as much time learning lisp idioms as I have Perl idioms I would find it easy to read as well. < 1325859395 163048 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i want to hear dmitry now < 1325859407 829945 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to youtube < 1325859416 645489 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, personally I prefer a language with some amount of syntax that is between lisp and perl < 1325859427 611974 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, Haskell? :> < 1325859433 737811 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes that is a nice one < 1325859452 468374 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, syntax amount between lisp and perl covers quite a few languages though < 1325859459 181111 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes quite a "few" < 1325859470 818709 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, probably even "most" < 1325859481 10338 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes they're pretty much on opposite ends there. < 1325859486 316 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1325859511 194519 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perl 6 trumphs Perl 5 in syntax though. < 1325859516 577358 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly < 1325859518 519982 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :in terms of "amount" < 1325859522 976881 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever that means. < 1325859524 17624 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1325859537 394780 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess grammar rules. < 1325859539 495261 :MSleep!~fyrc@or-67-238-19-212.dhcp.embarqhsd.net NICK :MDude < 1325859542 411273 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, well, it isn't a well defined concept, I can't give you a number < 1325859551 753848 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :but arguably you understood what I meant < 1325859555 557906 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1325859567 581566 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :perl 6 actually has useful syntax though < 1325859573 776361 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so does perl 5? < 1325859575 877556 :yorick!~yorick@unaffiliated/yorick QUIT :Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds. < 1325859600 725898 :yorick!~yorick@unaffiliated/yorick JOIN :#esoteric < 1325859604 824262 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, also is there a system to it? Or does it feel like someone just piled more and more features on the original language resulting in a mess? < 1325859619 675482 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a system to it and it's also pretty messy. < 1325859674 916972 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: It's much more consistent. < 1325859678 330670 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a difference between java and older C# versions (can't say much about the LINQ stuff and so on, never used that): C# feels like a streamlined and more consistent version of java to me. < 1325859689 239565 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiylH4HIb2A this is dmitry singing < 1325859702 676154 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well that is good < 1325859723 259849 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Perl 6 spec gives me a headache... < 1325859725 994259 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the crowd resembles grass swaying in the wind < 1325859733 603302 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, oh? < 1325859733 761191 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is kind of unusual < 1325859758 234102 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, yes usually crowds resemble crowds < 1325859846 658274 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm I just noticed the moon is highly visible and unusually sharp given that it is daytime, usually when it is visible during day it tends to be faint or such, not so today. < 1325859859 6964 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Perl 6 introduces a binary 'default' operator -- // -- that solves this problem. The default operator evaluates to its left operand if that operand is defined, otherwise it evaluates to its right operand." < 1325859863 367473 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh.... this is new? < 1325859872 17975 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess maybe Perl 5 borrowed it from Perl 6 or something. < 1325859874 81077 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :not unlikely. < 1325859880 418808 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It did. < 1325859894 863253 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :A large number of Perl 5 features are. < 1325859960 424088 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :when was perl 5 released, as in 5.0 < 1325860005 846259 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, there? < 1325860031 293381 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: can you explain why $@ iterates over a filehandle < 1325860034 505471 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :guess not < 1325860035 694753 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in $@f < 1325860046 227208 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :er @!f < 1325860050 887367 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1325860053 981561 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :@$f < 1325860054 140888 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Done. < 1325860058 463906 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. done. < 1325860061 409385 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :what did it do? < 1325860066 69396 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :no idea. < 1325860080 518994 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :@help $f < 1325860080 709724 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :help . Ask for help for . Try 'list' for all commands < 1325860100 214006 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :@$a < 1325860100 372617 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you meant: . ? @ bf do faq ft id map pl rc v wn < 1325860105 831127 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :@$f < 1325860105 989844 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Done. < 1325860107 418741 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1325860120 646195 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh it tries to match around typos right? < 1325860127 767778 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :@helpp < 1325860127 927412 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :help . Ask for help for . Try 'list' for all commands < 1325860130 550657 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1325860137 139267 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it could be anything < 1325860171 424360 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, it could be anything, you could have launched a nuclear missile < 1325860180 295736 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool < 1325860265 423475 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :...this spec is filled with some many [Update: ...] annotations that contradict what was previously said, that I should probably just read the Update annotations first as I scan along. < 1325860273 675330 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1325860354 867224 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@bf < 1325860355 67285 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Done. < 1325860358 280679 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :thought so. < 1325860370 602648 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :@13ijwd < 1325860370 763476 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unknown command, try @list < 1325860372 664504 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, phew, the Earth is afe < 1325860373 658608 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :@ijwd < 1325860373 975947 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :safe* < 1325860377 73148 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :@sld < 1325860377 232065 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you meant: bid id pl slap src < 1325860382 32718 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah nice. < 1325860384 96003 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: no < 1325860387 428835 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wasn't < 1325860388 62866 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION should implement this in his bot.
< 1325860397 724843 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :does your questions still stand? < 1325860401 530574 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well now you are: I have a java question. < 1325860401 848039 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: the error message when you change one letter too much, (i.e. the @$a) gives a hint what @$f may be interpreted as < 1325860402 641605 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes < 1325860462 460603 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: @$a is, in C notation, *(array*)scalar_a < 1325860501 677515 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, assume a tcp connection, I get something like a fixed size struct over a connection, containing integers and floats, how would I parse that in java? I would like to get it into a class with the relevant fields. < 1325860520 476851 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I could parse it by hand? But how would you convert a binary blob to a float in java? < 1325860528 49357 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : elliott: can you explain why $@ iterates over a filehandle < 1325860528 564524 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :in what < 1325860531 52278 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(assuming I calculated where it is) < 1325860538 908253 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I'd guess there's some sort of relevant input stream variant < 1325860540 675925 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: perl 6 < 1325860542 341747 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :try checking the API < 1325860545 311306 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, a socket atm < 1325860548 249969 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it's @$ actually < 1325860561 784333 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: there's probably a wrapper that you can wrap around arbitrary input streams < 1325860564 115920 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: well @foo must be a list and a filehandle is presumably a scalar < 1325860567 489072 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :with operations like readInt and readFloat < 1325860572 199628 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the sigils mean differnt things in 6 < 1325860581 321248 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Quit: MSN: Patashu@hotmail.com , Gmail: Patashu0@gmail.com , AIM: Patashu0 , YIM: patashu2 , Skype: patashu0 . < 1325860582 471170 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I'm just not sure how to do what is basically *((float*)&foo) in java < 1325860589 330802 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: ais523 has answered your question < 1325860591 688808 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1325860595 418608 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: @$fh looks to me like a dereference. but I'm guessing it's not. < 1325860605 344424 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I'm lagging a bit here < 1325860627 678514 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, he answered it just two seconds before I wrote that last line < 1325860641 21669 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do have 8 seconds lag though accoding to my irc client < 1325860648 961876 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :having a bit of problem with my connection today < 1325860843 350881 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1325860982 275816 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: DataInputStream may be what you're looking for; although it uses its own serialisation rules, not necessarily native byte order < 1325860997 533095 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1325861010 996333 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and for outputting I assume there is DataOutputStream? < 1325861018 139445 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess so, although I haven't checked < 1325861027 498861 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, thanks :) < 1325861040 438843 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: < 1325861040 756692 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :longBitsToDouble < 1325861040 914913 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :public static double longBitsToDouble(long bits) < 1325861041 71202 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Returns the double value corresponding to a given bit representation. The argument is considered to be a representation of a floating-point value according to the IEEE 754 floating-point "double format" bit layout. < 1325861041 71399 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the argument is 0x7ff0000000000000L, the result is positive infinity. < 1325861042 761352 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the argument is 0xfff0000000000000L, the result is negative infinity. < 1325861044 864242 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the argument is any value in the range 0x7ff0000000000001L through 0x7fffffffffffffffL or in the range 0xfff0000000000001L through 0xffffffffffffffffL, the result is a NaN. No IEEE 754 floating-point operation provided by Java can distinguish between two NaN values of the same type with different bit patterns. Distinct values of NaN are only distinguishable by use of the Double.doubleToRawLongBits method. < 1325861048 832131 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's also ObjectInputStream that also serialises and deserialises primitives, but it uses the same rules < 1325861064 146422 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, need float not double < 1325861065 97191 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :but sure < 1325861078 886422 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I was just about to mention that; DataStream says that it uses the same rules as longBitsToFloat/bitsToDouble < 1325861087 767361 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for representation < 1325861103 696556 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: http://docs.oracle.com/javase/1.4.2/docs/api/java/lang/Float.html#intBitsToFloat(int) < 1325861106 669339 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol, 1.4.2 < 1325861110 159489 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Oh. < 1325861114 7055 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Then it's IEEE. < 1325861118 260593 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you don't need that. < 1325861120 483280 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1325861131 202867 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION knows that Java just casts instead of actually converting.
< 1325861136 118402 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course a float or a double is IEEE < 1325861138 258862 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: apparently, the representation it uses for characters is "modified UTF-8", which sounds a little scary < 1325861140 322864 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even mcmap has manual IEEE encoding/decoding code. < 1325861149 411988 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, why? < 1325861153 304767 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Write once, run anywhere my ass. < 1325861158 968017 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could just... cast < 1325861162 537207 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Um, for non-IEEE platforms? < 1325861165 938885 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1325861168 202886 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It uses the casting method on IEEE platforms. < 1325861174 29621 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have to explicitly opt for the portable method. < 1325861177 164113 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think anybody has. < 1325861184 483218 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone wrote code for a non-IEEE platform? < 1325861189 870266 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, fizzie. < 1325861191 498566 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I told him to. < 1325861192 134544 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :why < 1325861194 591608 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's in config.h. < 1325861199 80212 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The setting, that is.) < 1325861203 653618 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Because non-IEEE platforms! < 1325861205 399652 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, it isn't as if I can think of any non-IEEE platform at all < 1325861216 717421 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :mcmap is portable, dude. Portable. < 1325861219 952859 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean x86 has long double sure, but double and float are IEEE < 1325861224 141958 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm dead sure there is a platform which can do SDL and glib that doesn't have IEEE floats. < 1325861231 97851 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, which one? < 1325861258 374693 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1325861303 420917 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Well, it might not be implemented. < 1325861310 115055 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I can CONCEIVE of such a platform. < 1325861332 902681 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :its called itidus's platform of DOOM < 1325861347 724951 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, right < 1325861422 994360 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, all modern architectures I know of either have IEEE hardware floats or no hardware floats. < 1325861434 617823 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and software floats tend to be IEEE ones < 1325861438 943588 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1325861443 320211 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :name: itidus's platform of DOOM definition: any platform which opts in for the name, and has precisely SDL and glib and no IEEE floats < 1325861467 53514 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, :D < 1325861468 5809 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The UNIVAC 1100/2200 series, introduced in 1962, supported two floating-point formats. Single precision used 36 bits, organized into a 1-bit sign, an 8-bit exponent, and a 27-bit significand. Double precision used 72 bits organized as a 1-bit sign, an 11-bit exponent, and a 60-bit significand. The IBM 7094, introduced the same year, also supported single and double precision, with slightly different formats. < 1325861480 447566 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, does it support SDL and glib? < 1325861482 75036 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: See, you might want to mcmap on a UNIVAC. < 1325861486 555126 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Well, I'm sure it _could_. < 1325861493 933309 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :We're not tied to any particular SDL or glib implementation, just the API. < 1325861501 272831 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I'm sure it would be terribly slow < 1325861515 431525 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: The IEEE has standardized the computer representation for binary floating-point numbers in IEEE 754. This standard is followed by almost all modern machines. Notable exceptions include IBM mainframes, which support IBM's own format (in addition to the IEEE 754 binary and decimal formats), and Cray vector machines, where the T90 series had an IEEE version, but the SV1 still uses Cray floating-point format. < 1325861519 438570 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :IBM. < 1325861522 561787 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gotta support IBM. < 1325861523 196170 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1325861530 24691 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, "in addition to" < 1325861530 501844 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first clause is to ensure that geeks on wikipedia can't go hunting for implementations of itidus's platform of DOOM since it is opt-in < 1325861533 990504 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: OK, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cray_SV1 < 1325861536 492182 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: 1998. < 1325861538 608837 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1325861545 313888 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure it can run mcmap. < 1325861547 733169 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Networking, maybe not. < 1325861554 104111 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also it probably can't run Unix. < 1325861561 102957 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you might need to port SDL and glib. < 1325861584 814660 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The SV1 was backwards compatible with J90 and Y-MP software, and ran the same UNIX-derived UNICOS operating system" < 1325861593 89083 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, unix-derived < 1325861594 834695 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :so hm < 1325861610 294470 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: They probably have a really shitty libc; also we need C99. < 1325861617 436364 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But MAYBE. < 1325861619 975822 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you use C99 for? < 1325861628 54763 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you use C89 for? < 1325861642 81971 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I meant, why do you need C99 rather than just C89 < 1325861656 532846 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why do you need C89 rather than just K&R? < 1325861673 211358 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for S&G < 1325861688 237962 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, because specific features in the program that uses newer features, and I'm trying to find out which ones those are in this case < 1325861706 782290 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :What? < 1325861731 617650 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^shits and giggles < 1325861745 545244 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, because specific parts of the code of the program uses features not found in K&R, that is why you need C89. And the interesting part is what those features are. < 1325861762 307528 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the case of mcmap that is < 1325861769 964930 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, and yes this is rather funny < 1325861819 620814 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: thinking about things, wouldn't a Java library impl be non-conforming if it didn't translate floats IEEE-style? < 1325861835 25252 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :[elliott@dinky mcmap]$ make CFLAGS="-std=c89 -ggdb3 -O3 -Wall -Werror -Winit-self -DPLATFORM_POSIX -pthread -D_GNU_SOURCE=1 -D_REENTRANT -isystem /usr/include/glib-2.0 -isystem /usr/lib/glib-2.0/include -isystem /usr/include/SDL" < 1325861835 183697 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :mkdir build < 1325861835 342801 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CC posix.c < 1325861835 499195 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :In file included from posix.c:14:0: < 1325861835 659756 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :types.h:67:1: error: expected identifier or ‘(’ before ‘/’ token < 1325861837 608455 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :[failed command: cc -MMD -std=c89 -ggdb3 -O3 -Wall -Werror -Winit-self -DPLATFORM_POSIX -pthread -D_GNU_SOURCE=1 -D_REENTRANT -isystem /usr/include/glib-2.0 -isystem /usr/lib/glib-2.0/include -isystem /usr/include/SDL -c -o build/posix.o posix.c] < 1325861841 591969 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :make: *** [build/posix.o] Error 1 < 1325861843 534972 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: indeed < 1325861851 599635 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, fuck gcc errors :D < 1325861858 320482 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: // FIXME: Should we transform alpha too? < 1325861859 352191 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the line. < 1325861862 210839 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaah < 1325861871 454098 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, so line comments then < 1325861873 397813 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's also a ton of declarations in for loops. < 1325861874 71077 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a reasonably good error message < 1325861881 388305 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And reasonable shit like that, rather than bunching them all at the start of a function. < 1325861884 239847 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tells you exactly what character was out of place < 1325861891 919005 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think we also use { .foo = ... }. < 1325861894 815561 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, we do. < 1325861896 602250 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quite a lot, even. < 1325861901 122813 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :((struct foo){ ... }) mainly. < 1325861902 549908 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, indeed < 1325861921 902439 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, sensible reasons :) < 1325861948 76300 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, we did use nested functions, but don't any more. < 1325861962 730564 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those aren't standard at all. < 1325861969 224287 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1325861972 42473 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are just gcc < 1325862326 181808 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Later < 1325862333 483329 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, any idea what swing component might be good for drawing a bitmap quite a lot, as in for a game or such (or maybe I should use some SDL bindings for java?) < 1325862356 962421 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: oh, haha, be careful not to hit an infamous bug/design error in Java's stdlib < 1325862362 787616 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oh? < 1325862366 159431 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me check what I did in jettyplay < 1325862442 138387 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I just need to blit a bitmap to a jframe basically :) < 1325862443 925669 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Why are you using Java, why are you drawing a bitmap with Java < 1325862450 305094 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, because of university < 1325862456 439198 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I would not use java if I could avoid it < 1325862478 899666 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't you use vector stuff rather than blitting a bitmap or w/e < 1325862487 594470 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, and the answer is, I avoided the image stuff like the plague < 1325862501 209782 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: basically, the standard way to do that sort of thing involves BufferedImage < 1325862513 260678 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but repeatedly redrawing images with that gives a memory leak < 1325862518 54442 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well I have it as a bitmap, as in, that is how the world is represented. Think a worms style game. < 1325862522 339924 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :you guys remember AOP? < 1325862524 654345 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(very much simpler than worms though) < 1325862525 924022 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I sure don't.. < 1325862536 209111 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: You're writing an AI that operates directly on a screen-scraping? < 1325862536 368042 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the reason is, that BufferedImage is lazy, and also doesn't optimise for the cases where the image below has already loaded or the current image has no alpha < 1325862552 414212 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Or what? < 1325862563 243506 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, no? I'm writing the client for this multiplayer game. < 1325862578 396296 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Why is your output image your in-game representation < 1325862582 599156 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably there's a rendering step < 1325862586 571855 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :From data structures -> image < 1325862602 815748 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'd be easier to use whatever drawing API Swing has directly. < 1325862631 344215 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, you realise how worms work right? the non-3D versions < 1325862638 54979 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, which is that your terrain /is/ an image < 1325862646 518872 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :destructible too < 1325862657 387502 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I know how Worms works, thank you very much; I daresay I've played it more than you have. < 1325862663 127654 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, probably < 1325862681 867015 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't represent it as an image I mutate to destruct parts of it, but whatever. < 1325862699 552366 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, and thus I need to draw the terrain, plus some players, plus some health bars and so on < 1325862709 250425 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yes there is a bit of rendering < 1325862726 903036 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: anyway: http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=4014323 < 1325862739 25710 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :comments say that the bug was only partially fixed even though Sun claimed to deliver a fix < 1325862742 762988 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm so what to do instead? < 1325862744 350229 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: is there any reason I'd want to use an Array instead of a Sequence in representing a chess board in Haskell? I was thinking reads will be predominate, the constant time access could be worth the cost of slower updates, unless I decide to write an AI which uses decision trees. < 1325862757 103270 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: hmm, I probably would represent Worms terrain as a bitmap < 1325862761 958391 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I'm not sure if it would directly be an image < 1325862767 415108 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably just a collidable/noncollidable mask < 1325862796 301023 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, indeed, that is basically 1-bit alpha though < 1325862809 355554 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it's a mask < 1325862814 588966 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: You should rarely use Sequence. You should never use Array. < 1325862823 994753 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :most likely rendering would be to draw pixels from one image if it's clear and a different one if it's set < 1325862826 137017 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so... Map? < 1325862833 315057 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: The choice should be between Vector or a Map-alike. < 1325862850 827076 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would use a storable vector, but a HashMap would work too. < 1325862851 23216 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, indeed, which is kind of the same effect alpha has, just that alpha is stored interleaved with the image < 1325862867 144316 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: chess programs normally work efficiently by mutating their chessboard view in-memory stack-style, but that algo is clearly a bad one to use with Haskell < 1325862871 796565 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're writing a chess AI in Haskell? I was just thinking about doing that last night, but then I figured I'd probably just be disappointed by the performance. < 1325862872 472248 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suspect there are other efficient algos < 1325862872 947026 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, anyway what should I do to avoid said bug? < 1325862877 320193 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I considered Map but I was under the impression the Sequence had similar complexity characteristics to Map. < 1325862884 957835 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: there's some advice in the thread, but I haven't personally tried it < 1325862886 266849 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :for linear sequences of things. < 1325862904 378957 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Why are you telling me this? < 1325862912 355708 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Do it anyway, kallisti will inevitably produce something terrible. I mean, uh. < 1325862923 999765 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Performance in which sense?) < 1325862928 567831 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : oh, and the answer is, I avoided the image stuff like the plague <-- doing what instead? < 1325862929 520218 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd rather go improve stockfish or something < 1325862930 549255 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :well no I don't intend to write an AI just yet < 1325862932 494066 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I thought it was vaguely relevant < 1325862936 153500 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just going to write the server program first. < 1325862944 244849 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: rendering the entire thing with graphical primitives and text-drawing primitives < 1325862946 943202 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Who the fuck works on other people's code? < 1325862947 260811 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :for a chess variant. < 1325862949 842093 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ah... < 1325862953 651867 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because that works quite well for a terminal < 1325862962 497188 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I guess there are SDL bindings for java... < 1325862962 653292 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably not so well for other programs < 1325862968 886065 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=sdl+java < 1325862979 276377 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Vector has a lot of modules... which ones besides Data.Vector are worth looking at. < 1325862991 330483 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: http://hackage.haskell.org/package/vector < 1325862997 114442 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :An efficient implementation of Int-indexed arrays (both mutable and immutable), with a powerful loop optimisation framework . < 1325862997 273247 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is structured as follows: < 1325862997 429486 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Data.Vector < 1325862997 429677 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Boxed vectors of arbitrary types. < 1325862997 429785 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Data.Vector.Unboxed < 1325862998 702663 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unboxed vectors with an adaptive representation based on data type families. < 1325863000 663777 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Data.Vector.Storable < 1325863002 727903 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unboxed vectors of Storable types. < 1325863004 680028 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Data.Vector.Primitive < 1325863006 621005 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unboxed vectors of primitive types as defined by the primitive package. Data.Vector.Unboxed is more flexible at no performance cost. < 1325863009 635861 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Well, even if I write my own, it'd have to be in C or some such, because of course the goal is to be the world's best :-P < 1325863009 794250 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Data.Vector.Generic < 1325863009 953324 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: ....... < 1325863011 739437 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Generic interface to the vector types. < 1325863013 800893 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Each module has a Safe version with is marked as Trustworthy (see http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/SafeHaskell). < 1325863014 354817 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so, there is nothing mentioned there since 2004, I guess that might mean the bug is fixed? < 1325863016 773146 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :This snarky copy-paste brought to you by the power of reading. < 1325863020 987064 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I'm using JDK 7 so < 1325863024 554447 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: it isn't < 1325863030 352165 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Just a tad hubristic < 1325863036 308916 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, strange the bug has no activity then < 1325863037 298796 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I was just on that page. weird, huh? < 1325863040 156389 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what happened is that Sun locked the thread, because it'd been fixed for a couple of years according to their records < 1325863045 997533 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1325863047 624445 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: You evidently didn't read it, because it told you exactly what the relevant modules were for. < 1325863048 782804 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though it was only a partial fix < 1325863050 52423 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1325863053 305626 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I previously even gave you a recommendation of which kind to use. < 1325863053 464542 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently, it was even worse a while ago < 1325863055 726871 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, that is a jerk move < 1325863065 555697 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: no, that's an automated bug database maintenance move < 1325863068 808207 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1325863070 316855 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it doesn't say anything about the Fusion stuff. < 1325863085 412471 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oh well, I guess I might just use SDL or such < 1325863098 772545 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: Maybe it omits some of the exposed modules because they're not relevant to you, in an attempt to try and answer the question you just asked me. < 1325863099 248839 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I'm just too competitive, I'd be annoyed/lose interest if it ends up being too poor < 1325863102 285422 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It does.) < 1325863130 702732 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I think you'd do rather badly in a field as competitive and high-stakes as chess AI then, unless you're prodigal or an expert :P < 1325863160 472810 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: you are more trusting than I.. :P < 1325863182 817893 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vector looks good though. < 1325863191 867420 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think this is what I want. < 1325863208 160784 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Exactly, which is why I figured I'd rather drop it < 1325863220 143802 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, doesn't jframe have some surface I could draw directly to hm? < 1325863226 780826 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't feel like making a poor AI and I know I probably won't be able to make a good AI < 1325863233 266497 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :somehow stuff must be able to draw to it, I mean the existing components < 1325863239 286289 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :unfortunately it doesn't appear to have an Ix-like thing < 1325863241 866617 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: you don't draw directly to jframe ever, you draw to a panel you put inside the frame < 1325863249 246867 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I can't use tuples to index a 2D Vector :( ah well < 1325863258 666034 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least without spending a /lot/ of time on it, and I don't think I have enough interest :-P < 1325863259 164768 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, okay so does the panel have a surface I can draw a bitmap to directly? < 1325863261 535620 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can easily get a Graphics for a JPanel, for the purpose of drawing on < 1325863273 12423 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1325863278 92106 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I could just blit to it I presume < 1325863280 87096 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: the problem's that you have to go through Graphics' methods; or in practice, Graphics2D's methods < 1325863289 186372 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, can't draw a bitmap? < 1325863292 876314 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the Graphics you get is declared as a Graphics, but is always actually a Graphics2D; I consider this an API mistake) < 1325863293 988022 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1325863309 332283 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, as opposed to Graphics1D? < 1325863319 518778 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : unfortunately it doesn't appear to have an Ix-like thing < 1325863330 855704 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: Just define your own indexing/update functions, takes about 3 seconds. < 1325863336 134784 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: nah, Graphics2D is just a particular specialisation of Graphics < 1325863337 563237 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ix is way overcomplicated. < 1325863339 30876 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: that's the idea. < 1325863343 397023 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's one reason Vector is nicer :P < 1325863348 39220 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: Alternatively, use repa < 1325863352 729915 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: Which is based on vector < 1325863363 953141 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm there is drawImage, or does that one have the issue mentioned? < 1325863367 606028 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd tout the automatic parallelism, but that's sort of irrelevant when you have 64 cells. < 1325863372 813919 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed. < 1325863377 195260 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: there is drawImage, and it does have the issue mentioned < 1325863380 639771 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: UNLESS I END UP WITH AI < 1325863381 315029 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1325863386 546866 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also it can only store predefined types, more or less. < 1325863390 906136 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can write instances but it's a pain. < 1325863394 743716 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well that creates some issues < 1325863401 861853 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn < 1325863404 161196 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, hmm < 1325863407 893061 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, it is < 1325863415 310128 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can get around it by only using the one BufferedImage, and mutating it < 1325863442 904077 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and BufferedImage has a method that gets you a WritableRaster, which is probably what you want < 1325863451 45486 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ah okay < 1325863457 634368 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :simple enough then < 1325863491 102791 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :a bit annoying, but simple enough < 1325863519 618917 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :@m < 1325863519 780066 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you meant: map messages messages? more msg . ? @ v < 1325863536 140329 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :@ms < 1325863536 298879 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not enough privileges < 1325863543 251672 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :@mssa < 1325863543 450689 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not enough privileges < 1325863544 718769 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :@mssag < 1325863545 353136 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not enough privileges < 1325863560 67299 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :@massage < 1325863560 701246 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't have any new messages. < 1325863562 482991 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :@massages < 1325863562 801462 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't have any new messages. < 1325863613 802333 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: basically, the problem is that drawImage is lazy, and there is no strict version < 1325863624 320287 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a lazy drawImage is necessarily going to leak memory in the general case < 1325863639 247947 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, I vaguely fear it leaks memory even if you keep redrawing the same image, just less so < 1325863660 304935 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I tried overwriting the entire image with a solid colour before redrawing it; that seemed to help, but not perfectly < 1325863754 539537 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :video was really invented for games < 1325863767 539489 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so what is the proper solution to this? < 1325863780 83787 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, not using swing? < 1325863780 757760 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: i < 1325863797 78069 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: you can get around it by only using the one BufferedImage, and mutating it and BufferedImage has a method that gets you a WritableRaster, which is probably what you want < 1325863808 850587 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, " actually, I vaguely fear it leaks memory even if you keep redrawing the same image, just less so" < 1325863817 151559 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, it was in reply to that line < 1325863823 915176 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know that ralph baer doesn't like the term video games < 1325863844 213878 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: both Swing and AWT have the same problem, as they both use Graphics/Graphics2D < 1325863850 50185 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1325863858 549270 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's possible there's some less popular rendering toolkit that doesn't < 1325863878 646210 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :incidentally, one of the problems with Java atm is that people consider both Swing and AWT obsolete, but disagree on what's replaced them, if anything < 1325863882 266584 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know that video isn't invented in the formal sense, and that it's just light medium, the eyes, the brain, conciousness, qualia "happening" < 1325863882 902480 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well I guess I could find some suitable SDL bindings and use that, it obviously wouldn't have the same issue < 1325863931 651985 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: SWT might have something. < 1325863939 696890 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's at least popular. < 1325863953 642323 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, the downside: I don't know the API of that. At all. < 1325863970 736242 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Qt Jambi? :p < 1325863977 519296 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, or is there built in opengl support? Then it should be fairly simple to just draw a texture and render it with a non-perspective camera < 1325863989 206519 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would be surprised if your university would be happy with having to install an SDL binding thing. < 1325863989 523673 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I have no clue what you mean < 1325864001 898807 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: That's because you're unable to use Google. < 1325864002 767317 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I used SDL for another course (from C then) < 1325864009 515860 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, it may be that video represents the intentional act of manipulating visible objects to represent images, at a high enough frequency that those images appear to consist of a sequence of frames < 1325864024 781552 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Java has a 3D library, but I'm not sure if it has anything to do with OpenGL or not < 1325864028 643557 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, in that case it was just a case of dropping SDL.dll into the build dir < 1325864030 910593 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: You can't just bundle JNI stuff in a .jar, can you? < 1325864041 465547 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it is this definition that i think is truely invented for games < 1325864044 366920 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: and even if you could, someone marking the work would be insane to run it < 1325864045 636124 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, can't you? What does minecraft do then? < 1325864053 828106 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : ais523, or is there built in opengl support? Then it should be fairly simple to just draw a texture and render it with a non-perspective camera < 1325864055 119335 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :lwjgl < 1325864062 118271 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"lwjgl"? < 1325864065 842824 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_OpenGL, I suppose. That's a JSR. < 1325864066 711300 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, which uses JNI, right? < 1325864071 192962 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: lwjgl < 1325864073 254348 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Well, eys. < 1325864073 889206 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1325864074 682757 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets wiki java gl < 1325864077 999377 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Minecraft downloads natives. < 1325864083 540094 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you ever paid attention to the updater? < 1325864091 1289 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, indeed, I could just bundle SDL.dll surely? < 1325864095 127658 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whatever < 1325864095 445171 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's also the reason you need -Djava.natives=... or w/e. < 1325864099 622805 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1325864102 885515 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't start Java normally and use it. < 1325864113 685228 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :so a .bat file as well then < 1325864154 373651 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, anyway, I guess I'll just do the mutate-bufferedimage thingy and hope for the best < 1325864158 240333 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: anyway, a quick search of StackOverflow, on a bunch of different search terms, implies that some people there are enough aware of the problem to know about it < 1325864168 367834 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but nobody there really knows enough about it to talk coherently about it < 1325864172 751357 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, I just use Google to search SO < 1325864202 384481 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: i have tried to ponder the real question of worms terrain < 1325864232 815816 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, Java really badly needs a "copy this raster to the screen" operation < 1325864252 323101 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1325864254 758720 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or even a strict "draw this image" operation, if you know the image is in memory or somewhere similar where that's not going to hang for minutes waiting for a network connection to load < 1325864272 423501 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, btw when you say it is lazy what do you actually mean? That it keeps old image data below the overwritten data? < 1325864275 338072 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has no idea what sense of "lazy" ais523 is using.
< 1325864303 679967 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, because obviously it is going to draw once the screen refreshes and so on < 1325864304 828679 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1325864330 936803 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :which would force an evaluation if it was the haskell sense of lazy < 1325864346 92053 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: well, it's more like "backgrounded" < 1325864351 55648 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you call drawImage, it returns immediately < 1325864355 504264 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1325864363 656240 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then the image starts loading in a different thread, and calls an ImageObserver as more parts of it load < 1325864365 997266 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like java from here :p < 1325864378 864042 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the screen updates as that happens < 1325864381 494147 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so how does this cause a memory leak, wouldn't the resources be freeded once the image is actually drawn? < 1325864385 543950 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: Isn't Baer the guy who wrongly claims to have invented the video game? < 1325864388 987573 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: they aren't, that's the problem < 1325864408 448328 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so it keeps a reference around? < 1325864410 756920 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1325864412 500395 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and trying to work around it depends on exactly which resources it is that aren't being freed, which nobody seems to be quite sure on < 1325864427 206124 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: well.. was spacewar before baer? < 1325864429 733638 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, couldn't you just look into the openjdk source? < 1325864430 846866 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: well, suppose you draw one image with some transparent pixels, then another image with transparent pixels on top of it, and neither have loaded < 1325864432 828120 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :to figure it out < 1325864433 500420 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess it probably ways < 1325864435 580509 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it needs to start backgrounding both < 1325864438 38397 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: Tennis for Two was. < 1325864445 827375 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: hmm, I typically have problems finding specific bits of Java library source < 1325864450 171772 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yes, Spacewar! was. < 1325864455 569022 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :As were several others: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_video_game#History < 1325864461 360820 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've tried before now, it's kind-of luck-based whether Ican find it anywhere < 1325864467 434665 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it obviously needs to draw in the same order as they are submitted < 1325864469 561168 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :so hm < 1325864473 820738 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: no, this is Java < 1325864477 587127 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm, cool. lazy evaluation of Levenshtein distance is much faster than the regular eager approach. < 1325864485 597982 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: Even Baer's claimed date of the original idea postdates the Cathode Ray Tube Amusement Device thing. < 1325864487 346068 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it obviously needs to draw all the pixels as soon as they can be calculated, and assume transparent if it doesn't know < 1325864502 991422 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you can't draw transparency out of order, it would result in incorrect blending! < 1325864519 858335 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: You still need to do the dynamic programming yourself: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Edit_distance < 1325864523 173862 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: you can, because you're keeping references to all the images around < 1325864526 187593 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is the reason z-buffering doesn't work on transparent polygons in 3D graphics < 1325864529 459077 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm okay < 1325864530 791743 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you recalculate each pixel when any of the images in the stack loads < 1325864533 55897 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I suspect you could abstract it out a bit. < 1325864535 38097 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you see where the memory leak comes from now? < 1325864540 361401 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1325864546 163768 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it is utterly stupid though < 1325864555 218535 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I'm not disagreeing with you on that < 1325864555 376878 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: wow.. that page is really full of trivia < 1325864560 917663 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Couldn't you just block until it's drawn? < 1325864569 12895 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they should be congratulated on that < 1325864574 648202 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: Err, not compared to most Wikipedia articles. < 1325864579 846133 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: my guess is no, because that'd involve blocking the Swing UI thread, and there's only one of those < 1325864588 318255 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the image loading code probably tries to call into it < 1325864593 638818 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok it's not trivial < 1325864594 114981 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: heh < 1325864598 824424 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in order to redraw the bit of the image that just loaded < 1325864618 437695 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but.. in any normal human's life, the history of video games is useless information :D < 1325864625 866927 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: anyway, I'm not convinced that it drops the reference to the image even when it's fully loaded < 1325864630 343059 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for reasons I don't fully understand < 1325864649 9544 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one might as well say that history is useless < 1325864649 326914 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as far as I can tell, all the solutions to the image problem so far have focused on not leaking huge int arrays < 1325864656 363290 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than focusing on not leaking stacks of metadata < 1325864659 102817 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, speaking of which, I saw a presentation on a solution to having to apply the painters algorithm for transparency on GPUs, using linked lists on them. Normally this is a terrible idea of course, but it used some new atomic counters feature. The presentation was by AMD so they probably know what they are doing < 1325864662 676083 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1325864664 461603 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is much smaller and thus less obvious when profiling < 1325864665 825087 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for some specific definition of useless < 1325864669 461567 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is useless < 1325864674 707870 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :blah < 1325864685 141997 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, basically a linked list per fragment which is then sorted at the end < 1325864688 989523 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: incidentally, I was surprised to learn that there are C->VHDL tools < 1325864692 514635 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: a Perl program that doesn't import anything. < 1325864696 43230 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds harder than ICA->VHDL to me :-) < 1325864698 983681 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I wasn't < 1325864701 6863 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*:) whoops forgot i was consistentising < 1325864702 370774 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it would mean you don't have to split intersecting polygons and so on < 1325864702 688251 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're on very limited subsets of C < 1325864705 191372 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kind of neat < 1325864707 176982 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: oh < 1325864709 242008 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :lame < 1325864710 553810 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1325864737 54460 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: also, the few tools that try to implement larger subsets typically get it wrong < 1325864742 491747 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a paragraph about this in one of my papers < 1325864755 238121 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: Ah, http://blog.tmorris.net/finding-the-levenshtein-distance-in-scala/. < 1325864765 499142 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: Easily implementable with http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/data-memocombinators/0.4.3/doc/html/Data-MemoCombinators.html. < 1325864765 975624 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't scala eager? < 1325864784 379499 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(e.g. unsafeArrayRange) < 1325864792 432133 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it has optional laziness, as used there < 1325864795 66474 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: waaaa what is this magic. < 1325864799 968488 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: ah, OK < 1325864801 925883 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just presenting a nicer implementation than my previously-linked one. < 1325864804 430980 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: What is what magic? < 1325864809 452919 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: memo combinators < 1325864819 97799 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: It's trivial. < 1325864822 540930 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1325864824 168942 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :bool :: Memo Bool < 1325864824 328193 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :bool f = cond (f True) (f False) < 1325864824 487001 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : where < 1325864824 643199 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : cond t f True = t < 1325864824 643394 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : cond t f False = f < 1325864824 805473 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :list :: Memo a -> Memo [a] < 1325864826 748989 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :list m f = table (f []) (m (\x -> list m (f . (x:)))) < 1325864828 812664 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : where < 1325864830 788592 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : table nil cons [] = nil < 1325864832 733543 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : table nil cons (x:xs) = cons x xs < 1325864834 717463 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It just uses a trie of bits for integral types. < 1325864846 905220 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Relies on the benign mutating nature of sharing that you don't understand because you think seq has side-effects. < 1325865115 584417 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm... I was on windows and ran a java program using swing... I happened to have fraps running (I forgot I left that running), it displays an FPS counter in the top right corner of Direct3D and OpenGL programs. It did that for the swing program too. How curious. < 1325865130 192198 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: yeah I don't understand... < 1325865133 502207 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1325865187 680517 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: Indeed. < 1325865218 793308 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: at one time i tried to sit down and start thinking about the topic of worms terrain.. this is how it ended up looking http://oi44.tinypic.com/o6jrjo.jpg < 1325865233 883427 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I also don't understand what it has to do with seq < 1325865235 786353 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :suffice to say i got sidetracked and never really returned to it < 1325865244 307735 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's weird-looking terrain < 1325865255 974389 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :same concept as websplat, only using Word documents as the source? < 1325865265 753727 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha < 1325865266 705215 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :openoffice < 1325865284 200256 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: Because it's the same benign mutation. < 1325865288 249071 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i may be on windows but i am using openoffice < 1325865293 129687 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1325865294 914429 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, it isn't really expensive. The reason is that computers are very fast. < 1325865318 538367 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: strict evaluation? < 1325865342 805248 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: well, it has less magic in a way; seq somehow manages to special-case each data type individually, whereas that's writing the special cases out so it doesn't look nearly so magical < 1325865346 972587 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, and you end up using the memory anyway < 1325865366 968337 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: i intended to go right into the subject in detail in a rant, but if i was capable of such applied focus i wouldn't be so hopeless < 1325865390 728819 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well, that's a way to explain seq, but doesn't define its semantics at all < 1325865401 88665 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: right, indeed < 1325865403 591624 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the semantics of seq are incredibly trivial < 1325865410 506278 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it may have been in here that someone inspired me that bitmapped terrain isn't a panacea < 1325865410 822785 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm explaning the difference between seq and Memo in terms of magicalness < 1325865411 834430 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: seq ⊥ b = ⊥; seq a b = b < 1325865413 342253 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or some irc channel < 1325865415 181376 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not defining either itself < 1325865418 617177 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, err, no < 1325865424 732425 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not how Memo works at all < 1325865428 540611 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's unrelated to the pattern-matching < 1325865437 791750 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, hmm, in that case I don't understand it < 1325865441 523514 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has an idea for a game like websplat except the idea is to be actually fun to play instead of just cool.
< 1325865443 628516 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not surprised < 1325865449 302755 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: websplat is fun on havenworks < 1325865457 796313 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, is there an onRedraw function or such for JPanels? Or am I approaching that from the wrong direction. < 1325865458 272616 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :that site that doesn't exist anymore? < 1325865460 19191 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is it up now? < 1325865483 975140 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: 253 kilobytes is a tiny amount of memory for an HD screen-sized area. < 1325865491 397406 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I'm kind of used to taking the opengl and SDL approach which is to draw in a main loop, not sure if that is the correct approach for swing < 1325865496 343701 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The waiting comment makes no sense, and it's not computationally expensive to work on bitmaps at all. < 1325865512 410456 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The two basic operations stuff also doesn't really make sense; the two basic operations are poke and peek, really. < 1325865517 14935 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, that's not a rant. < 1325865524 527708 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1325865531 143405 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I would bet money that Swing is event-based. < 1325865534 797026 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: in swing, everything happens in response to something < 1325865539 290168 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kerching. < 1325865539 607606 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1325865540 432780 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gimme money. < 1325865546 20200 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that is the approach to take then < 1325865556 827786 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1325865557 977765 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :far more annoying < 1325865563 295531 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :standard way of drawing something is to override paintComponent < 1325865569 490373 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :and of course "events" in Java are actually "subclasses" :P < 1325865582 58159 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that whenever Swing tries to redraw it, it ends up calling your custom redraw code < 1325865584 159458 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: well after that i went on to discover that sprites could carry more interesting information than they normally do, and never did return back to the actual topic < 1325865585 515338 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I guess I need to use two threads then to deal with the network... < 1325865586 825013 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well < 1325865590 846202 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: that's, umm, not even wrong, but it is rather misleading < 1325865600 833023 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: well, the general rule is that events have to be handled really quickly < 1325865607 781927 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: "Houdini cares for the children of the world. 10% of the revenues generated by Houdini 2 will be donated to Unicef to support their ongoing efforts to improve children's living conditions all over the world." < 1325865609 80997 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want to do something slow in response to one, you start a new thread < 1325865610 952637 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: You can't compete against LOVE. < 1325865616 346706 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, right, this is much simpler with the main loop approach really < 1325865630 579687 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: Quite a trailblazer. < 1325865636 860491 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really, I actually consider the main loop approach really bad < 1325865637 852278 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: how is it misleading? typically the pattern is that you override some kind of interface (occasionally with only one method). < 1325865646 307274 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The main loop approach is ridiculous. < 1325865646 784937 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :often as an anonymous class. < 1325865658 19213 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when I'm working with a main-loop-based API, I typically implement an event loop in it < 1325865662 785631 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1325865673 469139 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and even then, SDL works by repeatedly calling usleep(1000) in a loop < 1325865673 985296 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I'd compete only against stockfish anyway, I'm not going to pay for better engines < 1325865675 326029 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Callbacks are more ridiculous, though.) < 1325865676 955089 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl < 1325865678 782374 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is ridiculous < 1325865700 692881 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, really? heh < 1325865712 32000 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Err. < 1325865718 542450 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: not only that, it alternates usleep and gettimeofday < 1325865719 19183 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when i discussed my findings, someone then explained to me: < 1325865719 175777 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: No? < 1325865723 782505 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually the first icon and cursor format on Windows supported exactly that. it had two bits per pixel, one was ANDed with the underlying pixel, the other was XORed with the result of the and so with an AND bit of 0 and XOR bit of 0, you get black, 0/1 gives you white, 1/0 gives you transparent and 1/1 gives you inverted. quite clever actually IMO < 1325865727 275248 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, um... < 1325865729 79090 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: mcmap runs with 0% CPU usage most of the time. < 1325865736 53586 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: exactly < 1325865741 290790 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, usleep would have no CPU usage < 1325865745 850440 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, OK. < 1325865749 901133 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :turns out that waking every millisecond is close enough to 0% to be a rounding error < 1325865754 92504 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it really spams the hell out of strace < 1325865759 369540 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1325865764 401944 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nobody run mcmap on a laptop. < 1325865767 932023 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then i discovered alvy ray smith who was insistant that pixels are not rectangles < 1325865775 954048 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I did, but mc is far worse :P < 1325865777 384012 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're not. < 1325865796 365417 :PiRSquared17_!~chatzilla@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 JOIN :#esoteric < 1325865798 191691 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so.. i mean i really did end up going down the rabbit hole quite some depth < 1325865799 319538 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu NICK :sebbu < 1325865801 424343 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, anyway it is sensible for what SDL is trying to be < 1325865805 492270 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didnt get all the way though < 1325865809 565902 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :pixels are more like... dots right? < 1325865810 876917 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you are going to do the same sort of stuff for opengl too < 1325865814 488346 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: No. < 1325865815 957615 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: err, are you serious? < 1325865820 469971 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can see alvy's influence on me in my recent post < 1325865826 303367 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should just wait for the next timed event, or be interrupted by untimed events < 1325865827 575173 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: They're points. < 1325865830 30798 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you think interrupts are /for/? < 1325865830 898427 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, maybe we misunderstood each other < 1325865833 319278 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: that's what I meant < 1325865838 129866 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"video represents the intentional act of manipulating visible objects to represent images, at a high enough frequency that those images appear to consist of a sequence of frames" < 1325865839 25876 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the user asks for a timer, fine, make a timer < 1325865844 299527 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: "dot" is the unfancy way of saying "point" < 1325865854 753578 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: "Dot" usually means "little square/circle". < 1325865858 480842 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was how i defined video a few screens up < 1325865859 114883 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then sleep until the next time the timer would run out < 1325865862 409291 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: oh, well no, not that. < 1325865884 104392 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well, if you are using opengl you are going to need to keep redrawing, preferably at least at vsync-speed < 1325865893 804242 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, doing the same for SDL seems sensible to me < 1325865900 543457 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: so trigger on vsyncs < 1325865905 152013 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than polling every millisecond < 1325865921 62741 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd be very surprised if there weren't an interrupt connected to vsyncs or vblanks < 1325865930 949109 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, except what happens if you are only able to reach 50 FPS and trigger on vsync? You are going to get every second vsync < 1325865935 153764 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and get 30 FPS instead < 1325865944 10579 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: but it would be accurate to say that pixels are points that correspond to rectangles, yes? < 1325865950 617248 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: No. < 1325865961 849555 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=pixels%20are%20not%20little%20squares&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCIQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cs.princeton.edu%2Fcourses%2Farchive%2Fspr06%2Fcos426%2Fpapers%2Fsmith95b.pdf&ei=1hsHT6CpGoaD-watrfmrAQ&usg=AFQjCNFXhye-H_eqy71fz4fA904iIHgNGw&sig2=8Ru3uE2J7d4vHgj5YDTdNA < 1325865965 43581 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate you, Google. < 1325865966 946867 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my definition of video works for people in a stadium holding up colored panels to form an image < 1325866035 429691 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, pixels are just points? < 1325866053 250004 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, usually with colours < 1325866069 881426 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are kind of useless if there isn't at least one bit of information per pixel < 1325866074 565559 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway bbl really now < 1325866110 737739 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think the real question is.. what shape are color qualia < 1325866128 514744 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :do they even have shape? < 1325866172 662370 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the shape uhhh .. potentially variable between concious beings < 1325866214 235443 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: ah < 1325866231 259821 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: what < 1325866243 85093 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric : >:-) < 1325866262 860878 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok sorry i will rephrase < 1325866278 50150 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the nature of the qualia in which the visual field consists < 1325866293 370646 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and is it variable between creatures with visual fields < 1325866295 478107 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/concious/conscious/ s/qualia/koala/ < 1325866325 443495 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :are they points < 1325866331 233264 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :are they uniform? < 1325866343 270516 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1325866350 292333 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1325866354 528356 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :are they side by side? < 1325866376 899270 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty deep, i know.. < 1325866386 737284 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :noone would question that it's a deep topic < 1325866438 13105 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: I would think it corresponds to however our brain processes the 90-million-something cone and rod cells in the human eye. < 1325866460 234801 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :*the data from those cells < 1325866471 413804 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the data can come from the tongue also < 1325866480 69282 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is pretty confusing < 1325866483 503491 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :....I can't see with my tongue < 1325866485 924901 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are you talking about. < 1325866499 866227 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also synesthesiates sometimes see sound < 1325866520 302172 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the military invented a device which uses the tongue to feed visual info into the brain < 1325866524 445692 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :also drugs can do fun things to your vision. < 1325866599 912883 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :id say the system is designed for eye data < 1325866607 687637 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it can recieve data from other sources < 1325866614 119001 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1325866620 70644 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :much like a word processor can view an executable file < 1325866625 579365 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1325866666 380544 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this topic gives me mind numbing headaches < 1325866685 412810 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should learn Haskell instead. < 1325866724 249791 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and feeds into subconcious anxieties such as not having free will, or being a machine, or not really existing < 1325866727 976468 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :all that kind of thing < 1325866747 342706 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which i think, is a bit of a lie < 1325866779 730051 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anxiety seems to usually be triggered by actual percieved dangers i think < 1325866793 226309 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or the rippling effects of past percieved danegrs < 1325866846 882566 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :having sufficiently damaged you all... i think i should take a chat break < 1325866964 114187 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I'm unable to find the java function that wraps select() < 1325866980 544260 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(on multiple sockets) < 1325866981 337342 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: threads < 1325866996 161403 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, what do you do if you have thousands of sockets? < 1325866997 163124 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: select is far too low-level for this sort of thing < 1325867001 51923 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: you have thousands of threads < 1325867001 208196 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: threads < 1325867008 459520 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is stupid < 1325867008 616526 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, if you have thousands of sockets, select won't actually work < 1325867013 35837 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can't count to a thousand < 1325867013 907858 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, sure, epoll < 1325867016 545362 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever < 1325867030 950898 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, i believe i was rubbing shoulders with some cults in a chatroom.. and led me to preoccupation with useless things < 1325867033 786344 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: do you know any languages that aren't imperative? < 1325867043 837530 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yes, erlang, some haskell < 1325867050 427860 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : noone would question that it's a deep topic < 1325867052 812977 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is this an invitation? < 1325867055 195859 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so java's threads are lightweight enough? < 1325867056 308662 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: well, what's the equivalent of select in erlang? < 1325867057 102037 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1325867064 924535 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, very very lightweight threads < 1325867068 535338 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, /nothing/ in Java is lightweight < 1325867071 117649 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, but java /is/ imperative. < 1325867073 608746 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : ais523, so java's threads are lightweight enough? < 1325867076 824318 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Java's threads are OS threads. < 1325867078 910700 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it doesn't really matter what you use, it's going to be equally heavy either way < 1325867079 864400 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1325867104 675051 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if something isn't working for you, you just add extra layers of abstraction < 1325867105 984723 :iamcal!u1110@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hllmxxhlpazharqv QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1325867107 167787 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it won't actually /help/ < 1325867112 803862 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it'll make things feel more Javay < 1325867121 437966 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you use threads (processes they are called) in erlang, but they are cheap. Including the initial stack size it is about 300 words of memory to create a new thread. < 1325867150 562999 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: the vast majority of performance problems with Java, the usual solution is "get more memory" < 1325867155 276242 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: its a sign i am going nutso < 1325867165 22131 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or on OS X, "tell the JVM it's allowed to use more memory" < 1325867176 161807 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you need that on linux too < 1325867179 939690 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, for minecraft at least < 1325867183 676410 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: is this relevant maybe? http://docs.oracle.com/javase/1.4.2/docs/api/java/nio/channels/Selector.html < 1325867186 257259 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, anyway there are computational overheads in thread switching. < 1325867190 616629 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1325867199 563384 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, let me look < 1325867211 407874 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1325867211 884283 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :as far as I can tell this is how Java does select() < 1325867226 341606 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems a bit complicated but sure, I'll take a look at it < 1325867255 215320 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :java.nio.* is often a good bet for "more complicated" IO needs. < 1325867262 392149 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1325867293 407110 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: just click through the subclasses and interfaces and you'll figure it out. :P < 1325867334 725869 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: http://www.exampledepot.com/egs/java.nio/NbClient.html < 1325867393 493878 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, btw erlang actually uses epoll or kqueue for polling if available, it just hides that with its userspace threads (which are scheduled on OS threads, to be able to take advantage of multiple processors) < 1325867427 782679 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't most userspace thread systems work like that? < 1325867433 270420 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, server sockets in this case, but I see there is a link to that as well < 1325867440 483790 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, well you could use only one OS thread < 1325867465 729818 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :right but do people actually do that? < 1325867489 178199 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, erlang used to do that, way back before multiple CPUs were common. < 1325867501 430813 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1325867502 898686 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :As a historical interest, Sun JVM pre-1.2 had "green threads" that I think might've been single-core-only. < 1325867516 185306 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :1.2 went to native OS threads. < 1325867527 780510 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :green threads are far better IMO. < 1325867549 766046 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we need other colours of thread < 1325867553 239486 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :thousands of OS threads is not a good idea. Tens of thousands of erlang threads is a non-issue. < 1325867556 575028 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like indigo threads, for making jeans < 1325867560 540923 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1325867637 369187 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1325867650 403780 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Red threads which are, like, so heavyweight it's not even funny. Takes a minute to even spawn one. < 1325867667 699816 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I would guess cygwin uses them < 1325867765 877985 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :also oh god, the selector API looks painful. Less painful than threads though. < 1325867785 845609 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess ais and elliott would disagree about that < 1325867788 68219 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has decided to not try writing an AI anytime soon.
< 1325867799 934256 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no clue what would make a good portal chess strategy, since I haven't played it. < 1325867824 305167 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1325867838 871552 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: the best problems are the ones where the solution isn't immediately obvious upon seeing the problem < 1325867864 671723 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes those are the ones that are actually problems. < 1325867918 217116 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i believe the problem with the patent system is that most patents are obvious solutions to obscure problem definitions < 1325867964 684432 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then -- ok ill wrap up this obvious troll rant quickly -- the patent system is used to keep the economy working.. < 1325867965 958570 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION should patent portal chess.
< 1325868031 891362 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kind of like slow internet connections are good at preventing movie pirating < 1325868049 793469 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1325868068 608015 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: I think the patent system exists because inventors feel entitled to the spoils of their inventions and this makes sense from an ethical perspective. Paradoxically, people claim that it encourages competition, despite it doing the exact opposite of that by definition. < 1325868102 341836 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe once it did, but that purpose is long lost < 1325868125 7438 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/an ethical perspective/a society's intuitive ethical perspective/ < 1325868145 354766 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kind of like the way the word gay now means blasphemous or mentally ill in some circles < 1325868146 345760 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also I'm not so sure all softfloats are IEEE-like, though I don't really have counter-examples (except I think some CC65/SDCC float thing); all softfloats on system families where there sometimes are (IEEE) hardfloats are of course all IEEE-like for sanity. < 1325868184 162421 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders how he should represent loops.
< 1325868228 276653 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kind of like the way a word which once meant happy now means blasphemous or mentally ill or likely to get aids in some circles < 1325868243 505493 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I could just set all of the relevant cells with a "isDeathWall" boolean... < 1325868259 908151 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but maybe there's a better way. < 1325868269 937131 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :SHARC native floats are "IEEE-ish" 40 bit "extended single-precision" things, but it reads/writes 32-bit IEEE floats; much like x87 except half the bits, really. Though I doubt anyone's running mcmap on a DSP. < 1325868327 777688 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: the bourgeois would tend to possess the rare < 1325868339 639552 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whats rare in one place may be common in another place < 1325868355 917350 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :like air < 1325868359 288661 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :air isn't very common in space. < 1325868370 446575 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hence, ummm < 1325868402 570638 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :hence when we become asteroid-mining space colonists air will become an economic resource. < 1325868444 743116 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really want to retag this question with [c] so I get all the attention, but there's a maximum of 5 tags :'( < 1325868449 147575 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the possession of diamonds by the bourgeois is more about establishing their bourgeoisness more than wanting a malleable metal < 1325868462 801796 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops i forgot i said diamonds instead of gold < 1325868469 346987 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :we'll need large botanical gardens in our space colonies with reflective panels to direct solar energy towards the plants. < 1325868475 896038 :iamcal!u1110@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zrhmfnfvskqbtrxt JOIN :#esoteric < 1325868488 808320 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: well most people want gold because it has value. < 1325868490 595671 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :much like money. < 1325868500 24024 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :before money became something other than "paper representing gold" < 1325868527 74935 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :or... after? or... < 1325868531 57295 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know why I said before. < 1325868543 518821 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote the possession of diamonds by the bourgeois is more about establishing their bourgeoisness more than wanting a malleable metal oops i forgot i said diamonds instead of gold < 1325868547 168045 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :795) the possession of diamonds by the bourgeois is more about establishing their bourgeoisness more than wanting a malleable metal oops i forgot i said diamonds instead of gold < 1325868563 788587 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: Gold isn't really very useful. < 1325868568 390139 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's why it's such a good currency. < 1325868576 766368 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nobody much wants it for anything else. < 1325868583 196405 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so patents represent an asset that a company obtains for doing some work. < 1325868584 942513 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's useful /now/, because we have uses for basically everything now. < 1325868587 720901 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are just assets < 1325868589 385400 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: yes but I'm not sure if that's /why/ it's currency. certainly that helps. < 1325868604 765735 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except thulium. < 1325868609 963717 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :theres no morals or ethics guiding companies to want patents < 1325868619 261653 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :its just assets for the sake of assets < 1325868626 127332 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for whatever uses a company has for assets < 1325868630 55659 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/sake of assets/sake of money/ < 1325868648 795724 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bet money is a good use. < 1325868672 221565 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm I may just represent loops as a structure seperate from the Vector grid. < 1325868695 980509 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok ok my words full of fallacies < 1325868698 836554 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that I can treat them as a group rather than doing gross traversal stuff. < 1325868716 714326 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :(no one knows what I'm talking about right now....) < 1325868745 350136 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well because other companies could otherwise exploit a companys work, a patent protects a companys investment of time/energy/money into some work < 1325868755 854703 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : elliott: yes but I'm not sure if that's /why/ it's currency. certainly that helps. < 1325868763 461262 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: If something is really useful, people will be too busy using it to trade it. < 1325868768 718777 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: right. < 1325868781 462080 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, but it's a lot less useful than lots of other things. < 1325868783 883446 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess what i am trying to say is that the protection of investments is the key thing, and not the celebration of invention or innovation < 1325868796 142247 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : theres no morals or ethics guiding companies to want patents < 1325868796 298740 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : its just assets for the sake of assets < 1325868796 298821 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : for whatever uses a company has for assets < 1325868799 237303 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Today itidus21 learned: Capitalism! < 1325868809 483544 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I think gold also became a currency because it was pretty and hard to obtain historically. < 1325868812 221307 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: You're talking about portal chess. < 1325868815 953094 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: yes < 1325868824 803085 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, duh, yes, only scarce resources are valuable. < 1325868877 854554 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :company makes an investment, others threaten that investment, company protects the investment using some set of laws which lately tends to be patents < 1325868891 213603 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm, I think I'll represent all the loops on the board as a Vector of sets. This allows me to efficiently remove them and change their boundaries as a group, but also allowing me to test if positions are within a loop because, well, they're sets. < 1325868892 483256 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose there is always laws in place to protect the investment a company makes < 1325868929 543502 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but maybe corporations do business like katamari < 1325868944 845871 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if I should make it a rule that you cannot willingly place a piece within a loop. This basically makes them like impenetrable (redirectable) walls. < 1325868968 202500 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1325868975 40762 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a physical game it would be cool to allow pieces to accidentally meander into loops, because their player forgot about their existence. < 1325868987 578310 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what i am trying to say here is that, any AI which is easy to program is pointless :)) :)) < 1325868989 166399 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: Be careful about using Vectors. < 1325868989 646275 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but presumably in a computer representation you have graphics that allow you to see all the loops. < 1325868995 732088 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, didn't you decide above not to write an AI? < 1325868996 49534 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: why's that? < 1325868999 423427 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: correct. < 1325869005 102853 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :my purpose was never to write an AI. < 1325869006 373315 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_> < 1325869011 292126 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what are you doing now? < 1325869013 671996 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: Every update requires copying all the data (all the pointers if you used a boxed vector). < 1325869018 63369 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the method of writing an AI is too obvious.. then the AI is too trivial < 1325869022 638086 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the game is too easy < 1325869027 670632 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :writing a server program that connects to clients and implements a game of portal chess. < 1325869037 319141 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: It's probably good if you have 64 elements but not if you have a few hundred. < 1325869046 579103 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, how does portal chess differ from normal chess? < 1325869051 367932 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, I hope it involves a portal gun < 1325869057 560059 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: this Vector will, in all likelihood, remain at 0 to 2 elements. < 1325869064 629158 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could just as easily use a linked list. < 1325869070 662498 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :because that would be awesome to apply on the other side < 1325869078 987610 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :except that I think I would want random access? not sure. < 1325869083 102706 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric : kallisti: the best problems are the ones where the solution isn't immediately obvious upon seeing the problem i believe the problem with the patent system is that most patents are obvious solutions to obscure problem definitions [...] if the method of writing an AI is too obvious.. then the AI is too trivial < 1325869090 493525 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :see, there is method to my madness < 1325869095 685314 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :waahahahahhaha < 1325869117 471739 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: it involves two pieces that are portals. < 1325869130 473583 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: which other pieces and projectile abstraction things can pass through < 1325869163 205948 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, oh, less fun than a portal gun (probably saner though) < 1325869196 913632 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :honestly the "loop" rule is akin to one of the weird chess rules like en passant or the trade-pawn-for-any-other-piece rule. < 1325869205 50873 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: yes considering it's a game of chess. < 1325869213 55626 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1325869235 57890 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: this is why we need inspiration and motivation, because all good things require hard work and commitment < 1325869242 587536 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1325869248 860834 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but who knows, maybe in the future thriving scene of portal chess the loop rule will take on an unforseen importance in portal chess strategy. < 1325869278 326614 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, in collecting motivation it is important for us to realize it's ok to abandon a project which we don't like < 1325869281 30003 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, "because all good things require hard work and commitment" <-- not really, garlic doesn't require hard work as such < 1325869298 2038 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... < 1325869299 58825 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, the loop rule being? < 1325869341 212869 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay so there are pieces called cannons that can, as their move, fire a projectile in one of four directions. This projectile will capture something in its path, or will otherwise interact with a piece in the way its rules specify. < 1325869345 627472 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1325869362 914230 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :one such piece is portals themselves. if a projectile goes through the opening of a portal it will continue out of the other portal < 1325869368 37919 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, ah < 1325869372 294535 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :another piece is the arrow < 1325869389 135761 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :which, will redirect the path of the projectile in the direction that it's facing. < 1325869394 503958 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1325869397 880809 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, I see < 1325869401 765003 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :using these two pieces you can form projectile loops < 1325869404 732277 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, so what happens in the case of a loop? < 1325869408 585607 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :where the projectile travels indefinitely in a loop. < 1325869412 235706 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :at which point < 1325869419 907522 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it remains as a persistent part of the game state. < 1325869428 118284 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I hoped for an explosion < 1325869429 311257 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :until something in its path breaks the loop. < 1325869438 8503 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, and what effect does breaking said path have? < 1325869449 468595 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, imagine you place an arrow within the loop < 1325869459 754313 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :immediately a projectile fires from the direction the arrow is pointing < 1325869463 679721 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :simultaneously breaking the loop. < 1325869467 95460 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you could change it into another loop < 1325869470 542650 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1325869471 890796 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :with enough arrows < 1325869477 573843 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :how many arrows do you have < 1325869479 518872 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are only 4 arrows on the board. < 1325869481 580159 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 per player < 1325869488 605566 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes that's possible. < 1325869489 763280 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1325869498 798607 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :the main purpose would be to allow arrows to quickly capture pieces. < 1325869508 889893 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :a loop is immediately a danger if an arrow is nearby < 1325869512 942668 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1325869548 880020 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, do the pieces have hitpoints or are cannon shots one-hit kills? < 1325869560 454415 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :they capture pieces < 1325869565 417527 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not too removed from chess in that sense. < 1325869569 230428 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :the goal is to capture the king. < 1325869575 603476 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1325869586 927593 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :with capture you don't mean traditional chess capture? < 1325869589 413006 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :the pieces are arranged as in chess. < 1325869603 739228 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION imagines chess with HP and headshots.
< 1325869621 340282 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: hmmm, well no it could work that way. < 1325869621 497987 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :headshots < 1325869632 77035 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be against the rules for a king to walkinto the line of sight of a cannon, for example. < 1325869638 686910 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if the king has no valid moves < 1325869641 106853 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :then that's checkmate < 1325869644 724811 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1325869661 154574 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: you need a concept artist < 1325869677 826284 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone like yoshitaka amano or akiman < 1325869682 380968 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, anyway what about a variant of chess were each capture causes a mini-game in the form of D&D style fight with d20 and so on? < 1325869686 546965 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric : * Vorpal imagines chess with HP and headshots. < 1325869700 274016 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, yes? < 1325869712 301973 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: D&D kind of already works like this if you play with a grid map. < 1325869725 434990 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :After me and a friend got kicked out of the school library for playing Halo on the library computers when we were bored we invested quite a bit of time into inventing Chess Halo. < 1325869736 567609 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, hm kind of, except more than one unit move per turn < 1325869739 982750 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1325869742 355791 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(All the school computers have Halo because.... I don't know.) < 1325869749 770958 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: anyway I'm not going to suddenly start creating a new chess variant when I want to focus on implementing, playtesting, and improving my current game. < 1325869751 241866 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, awesome < 1325869762 430548 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :also there's some rule issues to decide. < 1325869769 934516 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I currently have, I think, 3 variant rules. < 1325869774 856708 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, and yes that is strange < 1325869777 256 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I should probably pick a "standard" rule. < 1325869783 160203 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :concerning loops and how they interact with portals. < 1325869786 769415 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, what about chess on a finite euclidean plane < 1325869798 145849 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: what are the pieces? points? < 1325869803 71471 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are "turns" in a continuous space. < 1325869814 892599 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the pieces could be circles :D < 1325869819 186545 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :centered on points < 1325869825 617496 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's an RTS, I assume. < 1325869842 896168 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise turns would have to be discrete steps < 1325869848 264939 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although one with infinitely fast thinking for each player. < 1325869850 685637 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, and you could do collision tests to see if you capture < 1325869851 679691 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1325869855 449116 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: turns involve translating from one point to another point with some given min/max < 1325869857 516468 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :collision checks* < 1325869868 739553 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: the current issue is that it's not clear how portals should interact with loops < 1325869874 897333 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and uhmm.. < 1325869877 887 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the capture rules for portals are direction-based < 1325869890 413146 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, hm... explode < 1325869894 867834 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, definitely explode < 1325869897 988852 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :a portal cannot be captured from the direction it's facing. an attempt to do so results in the piece exiting through the other side. < 1325869907 595212 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, causing AOE damage < 1325869915 522524 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm seeing this as basically DEFCON except chess rather than war. < 1325869916 475045 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the 3x3 centered on the portal < 1325869921 893141 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: no that's what happens when a portal tries to pass through its sister portal. :P < 1325869931 425247 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, wow that sounds awesome < 1325869933 52720 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :one explosion rule is enough < 1325869936 427746 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, aww < 1325869947 44838 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, you can never have too many explosions < 1325869956 39841 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"WHITE LAUNCH DETECTED" < 1325869957 351921 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could actually use the explosion to your advantage < 1325869961 992765 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, :D < 1325869969 332358 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :if destroying both your portals is worth the outcome < 1325869980 722912 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"E5 HIT, 1 DEAD" < 1325869984 620826 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : kallisti what happens if the king is in the exploded area? < 1325869996 439693 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :also putting your portals within line of sight of each other and having them facing each other basically creates a space where a king cannot enter < 1325870000 373702 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :because he could get exploded. < 1325870026 613654 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, and then we could do a fallout-style followup :D < 1325870055 506146 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Climbing up the ruins of the black queen? < 1325870058 8111 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway back to the loop/portal problem. the problem is that there are two kinds of loops. one is unidirectional, meaning that there is a definite direction to such a loop. it travels in a clockwise or counter clockwise circuit. < 1325870061 464642 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This looks so awesome in my head. < 1325870063 728550 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, that sounds dirtly < 1325870066 587447 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :dirty* < 1325870078 485362 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :in this situation a portal can enter the loop and "catch" the projectile causing it to be expelled from its sister portal. < 1325870083 977699 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(at least if another chess piece does it) < 1325870089 87872 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, and yes, same here < 1325870091 947118 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :— Arvid "I couldn't find any SCSI porn!" Norlander. < 1325870105 402222 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :however another class of loops are "bidirectional"... they oscillate back and forth between two endpoints. < 1325870106 35809 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, where did I say that was a bad thing? < 1325870123 120080 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, anyway I did that to prove that rule 34 was incorrect < 1325870124 271878 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was a tangible sense of disappointment there. < 1325870151 133895 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, heh < 1325870152 125813 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :this situation is the ambiguous one. what happens when a portal enters a bidirectional loop? you could have it so that portals are captured, or you could have it where portals always redirect. or you could have it so that portals have a 50/50 chance of either. < 1325870176 113439 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just because you can't find something is not proof of it not existing. < 1325870179 98783 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :these are the 3 rule possibilites. < 1325870185 448767 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, I would suggest oscillation at a fixed frequency. Makes it harder to keep track of the game for the players < 1325870198 662824 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: so you want a turn-based game to have a real-time element? < 1325870206 12579 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, indeed. But it wasn't within the first few pages of google image search results < 1325870207 59477 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose that's possible on a computer. < 1325870224 910786 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, it is very unlikely it exists though at least < 1325870243 703002 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you know whats dissapointing? having an idea and then googling it.. well time for me to google this finite euclidean plane chess idea of mine < 1325870249 927435 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, sure. < 1325870251 358382 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: that basically means that you have to time how long it takes for a turn to transpire and correctly position the portal at the right time in order to catch the projectile. < 1325870264 378257 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :this sounds really... wonky to me. it doesn't make any sense in a turn-based strategy game. < 1325870268 856805 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's very implementation dependent. < 1325870270 5985 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, I like really screwy chess variants :P < 1325870279 911673 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :how much time passes in piece movement? < 1325870280 388439 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.epicycle.org.uk/images/carriers.jpg -- I don't know, that's pretty close. (Google Image search result for "scsi porn".) < 1325870287 477019 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1325870292 889999 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it instant? < 1325870295 554766 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Max SendQ exceeded < 1325870312 641403 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, no I meant real time oscillation, while the player is considering their next move. I suggest a frequency of 1-3 Hz < 1325870322 723521 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would rather have the "portals can always catch bidirectional loops if the portal is facing one of the two directions" rule < 1325870323 518335 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1325870330 152015 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, you can then time your move to take advantage of it < 1325870340 10719 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it is strategically equivalent to the real-time-frequency thing you're suggesting < 1325870345 300072 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :without this silly timing thing involved. :P < 1325870355 501353 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, I like silly chess variants :P < 1325870388 185135 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder if this idea is genuinely innovative < 1325870399 972087 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: also it complicates implementation for... basically no gain. < 1325870405 744634 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1325870407 530653 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have definitely never heard of a chess game based on euclidean geometry < 1325870426 2779 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but then i am clueles about chess) < 1325870444 469507 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Okay, here: http://e621.net/post/show/43346/4-3-blush-darkdoomer-iriver-overstretched-rule_34- -- note, it's a SCSI cable; you can tell from the logo. < 1325870446 966571 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, anyway I suggest you add missiles as well, with a cooldown < 1325870453 440321 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: ..... < 1325870457 762466 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, you're banned from ideas now. < 1325870461 858170 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, why? < 1325870471 558840 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :still I also like the "portals always are captured (and therefore cannot cross a loop" because it has interesting consequences and makes loops more formidable defensively. < 1325870473 345101 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, anyway card games have that sort of things < 1325870477 236731 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, and they are turn based < 1325870479 657420 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :the 50/50 rule is pretty much bad to me. randomness in chess? nothx < 1325870494 971520 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I see all 3 as viable rule variants < 1325870505 489226 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I'll probably list all of them in the official rules. < 1325870507 261886 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, eww < 1325870563 416096 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol you could calculate the probability based on the distance the portal is from the endpoint it's facing in the loop path... < 1325870566 353518 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1325870579 207904 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :directly inbetween the two endpoints is 50/50 regardless of direction. < 1325870589 778871 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, anyway I think randomness in chess could be interesting < 1325870603 379711 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to imagine my idea.. it is like this.. the rule is that you have to move the piece in a straight line < 1325870635 925794 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, it has to be done carefully though < 1325870640 873648 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :as all randomness in games < 1325870654 700549 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: it's basically a corner case. < 1325870661 572830 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can move the pieces according to some set of rules based on geometry.. but the most important rule is the straight line rule < 1325870672 921202 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a very specific situation in a very specific rule. < 1325870681 470672 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, what about adding gravitation causing bent paths? < 1325870682 706797 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1325870692 188433 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa! < 1325870695 609664 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(wow that must be one fat knight) < 1325870709 890617 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes .. what about adding gravitation < 1325870711 394860 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I can actually think of a lot of different loop configurations that you could create < 1325870719 286978 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, nice < 1325870726 638505 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example you could actually put arrows in a loop in such a way that they don't interfere with the loop < 1325870737 573748 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :this makes them a cannon in their own right < 1325870742 217838 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :they just turn to fire. < 1325870750 303880 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: chess with spaceships which can make an impulse thrust in a given direction once per turn < 1325870759 659165 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, anyway you could have it oscillate once per turn or such < 1325870763 151047 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :around planets < 1325870764 734374 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, that might be interesting < 1325870768 490866 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: hmmmm maybe < 1325870777 578965 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be hard to visualize it < 1325870783 296050 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :graphically < 1325870790 286251 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1325870814 291780 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless the projectiles are like huge beams with clearly labelled arrows. :P < 1325870823 107173 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :"hi player I go this way" < 1325870830 431040 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :"hey now I'm going this way" < 1325870835 65571 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, could easily be done on a computer < 1325870843 170189 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :computers once again become useful < 1325870845 393239 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :just make it look like >>>>> or such < 1325870848 5722 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the first time since ww2 < 1325870848 322332 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes it just doesn't make sense in the model I have for how the game works... < 1325870853 841295 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :in red above the board < 1325870876 361187 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, how can you have a model when you haven't yet decided on the rules < 1325870886 35093 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the only undecided rule. < 1325870905 32248 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh, the 'coretemp' sensor on this Atom box is saying "Core 0: +23.0°C (crit = +90.0°C)" -- that sounds dubiously low, but I guess it's *possible*, since it's an Atom and mostly idle. (The box is making a worrisome noise, might be the PSU fan dying.) < 1325870918 772531 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :+23 is pretty much room temperature, though. < 1325870920 525688 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I had an old sempron that idled at 28 C < 1325870930 259982 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :when it was like 17 C inside < 1325870944 256678 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :the difficulty of this rule is that it either requires a special case, a real-time element of the game, or a re-interpretation of how loops work. < 1325870950 581607 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :my current CPU tends to idle much higher, but then the fan is no longer constant speed < 1325870951 692051 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :lm-sensors tends to report all kinds of nonsense numbers, but normally coretemp's quite reliable, AFAIK. < 1325870975 943567 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, yeah all machines should have IPMI < 1325870987 836291 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everyone wires the motherboard-specific sensors differently for some reason. < 1325870987 994964 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :that reports temperatures with proper names too < 1325871001 198647 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, it tends to be mostly reliable on thinkpads < 1325871005 363917 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(lm-sensors) < 1325871010 918657 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, even then there are some issues < 1325871032 473699 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: if i allowed gravity then i could allow acceleration < 1325871033 783796 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, and that is with the thinkpad-isa-0000 "adapter" < 1325871045 113715 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, they wire it differently in different models < 1325871051 357386 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :some stuff are the same though < 1325871061 636267 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, sure < 1325871068 206445 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be quite weird < 1325871069 992862 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mhm, modprobed also the actual superio chip found by sensors-detect ("Fintek F71862FG Super IO Sensors"); it gives temp1, temp2 and temp3 at 39, 46 and 51, respectively. < 1325871075 666962 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :No idea where those temperatures are, though. < 1325871085 363381 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, I wonder when this turns into something completely different than chess, instead of a variant of chess < 1325871088 842565 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I suppose I could simply leave it an open question, with reinterpretations of the rule being permitted. Obviously for any kind of tournament you would want to pick one rule for the entire series of games. < 1325871108 659147 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :my implementation will have the 4 non-real-time rules that I've got so far (including the oscillating one you suggested) < 1325871110 87121 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, might even be offset from the real values depending on the type of probe iirc < 1325871122 100551 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :with an option to choose which rule you want to play. < 1325871136 977862 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Certainly. Or multiplied with a different factor. < 1325871152 490338 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, or both :P < 1325871152 649472 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: turn based asteroids basically < 1325871159 61089 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, :D < 1325871172 343809 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway is there any realtime chess I wonder < 1325871189 534055 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are other RTS obviously, but are there any based on chess? < 1325871214 395684 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder if anyone has ever tried to implement asteroids with turn based < 1325871223 520703 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :doubtful < 1325871229 329586 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :its so insane < 1325871235 598818 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :why don't you do it? < 1325871252 22598 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my initial definition of turn is turning to jelly < 1325871259 912430 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess if I ever implement a system that matches players together, they could each check off which rules they want to play and it will match them with anyone else that picked those rules. < 1325871263 82933 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, anyway astroids is turn based, it is just that they are very short turns and take a fixed amount of time :P < 1325871269 267615 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's further away from just getting the actual game itself. < 1325871273 798402 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(computers are not continuous!) < 1325871288 925975 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the idea is that instead of firing guns in asteroids, that you collide with things to destroy them < 1325871305 561387 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, you could only destroy the asteroid on your turn, in such a system < 1325871315 370728 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: FRP maintains a sample-independent abstraction that logically resembles continuity. < 1325871328 161203 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, FRP being? < 1325871332 987788 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :functional reactive programming < 1325871336 791386 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1325871349 359784 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course you have to sample values at some point, the code itself is written as though it were continuous. < 1325871356 742044 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, anyway I doubt astroids is implemented with it in the classical implementation < 1325871364 307769 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this isn't really an idea i just had.. this is just lots of ideas culminating < 1325871372 301437 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, and still the actual computer is discrete < 1325871397 702504 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I certainly don't disagree that computers are discrete. < 1325871399 435179 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have a notepad showing you how i labor over the question of turn based vs realtime in games < 1325871416 970976 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, how is that something to labor over? < 1325871418 82934 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and finally i made some progress here < 1325871425 494826 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just decide from case to case what fits best < 1325871472 117969 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1325871479 879894 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :gameplay begins with standard chessboard.. each has a pawn piece placed somewhere on rear row. < 1325871522 335800 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :turn by turn an impulse is done by the "ship" direction and speed indicated < 1325871522 492099 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What if you make the pieces continuous too? < 1325871539 884230 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't have pawns, you have a long strip of pawn at the start. < 1325871548 227024 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not in this variation < 1325871555 132046 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, interesting, how would you move it? < 1325871559 738882 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, like a barrier? < 1325871570 419515 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well could have more than 1 < 1325871593 284618 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the continuous model I mean < 1325871618 24636 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, you'd fling bits of it along defined trajectories so the integral of movement d(pawn) is within allowed bounds? < 1325871625 58091 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: of course, thanks to the sampling theorem, we know that a continuous function with no frequencies higher than N can be completely determined by a discrete signal with a sample rate of .5*N. I'm not sure what implications this has for games. :P < 1325871685 569615 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'd probably have to forbid non-measurable sets of piece from being moved. < 1325871691 942024 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, hrrm < 1325871697 339925 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes < 1325871749 308860 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, I would suspect a lot of non-continuous functions in games < 1325871769 601194 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, well, depends on the game. I was thinking FPS or such here < 1325871809 124617 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I'm just not really sure how to calculate frequencies on fuctions on non-real (co)domains. < 1325871871 41383 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1325871899 115048 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl < 1325871910 78250 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but given the clock speed computers I would think that most data "frequencies" are "low enough" in comparison. < 1325871913 886537 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :+of < 1325871996 860877 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :heres a pic of what i have in mind: http://oi44.tinypic.com/2sbtmvb.jpg < 1325872031 221884 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :each vector representing a turn somehow < 1325872089 497044 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :guys what if I write this portal chess server and people actually play it? < 1325872111 45349 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the trouble begins if i allow velocity.. then each vector gets modified every turn < 1325872114 582645 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then you're doomed to be known as the "portal chess guy". There are worse fates. (But not many?) < 1325872129 450522 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: what are you talking about portal chess is often. < 1325872135 279427 :Klisz!~Klisz@c-67-176-12-54.hsd1.co.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1325872139 625568 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, often < 1325872141 77372 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :not awesome < 1325872200 405312 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: are you implying that "portal chess guy" is not a title with dignity? < 1325872212 646706 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I completely disagree. < 1325872241 1241 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, no, it certainly has gravitas. < 1325872263 77944 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps even gravytude. < 1325872281 527553 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the game uses velocity and if vectors have variable time, then it means that the time your turn can determine the length of time that the other objects move during your turn < 1325872306 268843 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: yes < 1325872318 366073 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is unanticipated pain < 1325872332 212413 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :turns + real time = you can wait forever (or until a time limit) and maintain the current status quo of the system < 1325872359 972507 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then again.. < 1325872360 450747 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : but given the clock speed computers I would think that most data "frequencies" are "low enough" in comparison. <-- from what sort of data? < 1325872385 596800 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: precisely. it was a very vague statement. I'm guessing many game states fall into this category. < 1325872396 853673 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1325872404 546940 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not all. it again dependends on how you calculate frequency of an entire game state < 1325872412 568418 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know how to do that or if it's necessarily possible. < 1325872414 249058 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hummm < 1325872439 153163 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess these sorts of problems become simpler when actually testing the thing in practice, instead of theorizing < 1325872439 470916 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it would help if I knew more about Fourier transforms. < 1325872443 122450 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, I was just going to point out that for example microwave control circuits from what I remember run at much higher frequencies than computers do < 1325872470 253519 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: well I didn't mean "any data" < 1325872483 264634 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, and iirc there was some sort of carbon transistor that could switch at 100 GHz < 1325872490 437591 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is pretty impressive < 1325872511 114152 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :we should design a carbon transistor processor and make it affordable to the masses. < 1325872545 613906 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, if it works out in the end I guess that will happen, probably won't give you a 100 GHz CPU, there are many overheads < 1325872555 295829 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1325872559 84633 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what i am talking about seems to be a continuous board "racetrack" where the objective is to crash into the opponent < 1325872580 288123 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: I would say you want a time limit < 1325872581 914219 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :to a turn < 1325872593 841884 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :to maintain sanity. < 1325872603 253230 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :racetrack adopts the idea that no other pieces move during a turn < 1325872618 780122 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's like... < 1325872621 518740 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :a non-real-time game? < 1325872626 147734 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah :) < 1325872642 703950 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my goal is turnbased on a continuous board < 1325872658 749583 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway turnbased asteroids could be interesting if you have precise control over what you can do per turn < 1325872676 293886 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :like applying this much force in this direction, or aim and fire < 1325872710 254625 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i need to study the racetrack rules a bit closer < 1325872778 227374 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, what about 3D chess? < 1325872780 769228 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm one nice thing about Haskell is I'll be able to take advantage of its excellent concurrency support when I actually write the server code that hosts games. < 1325872786 407756 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: what about it? < 1325872789 372865 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Continuous boards sound like a recipe for endless squabbling about how you *would* have won except the unfair floating-point imperfections of your implementation kept favouring the opponent. (Unless of course you're going to analytically solve everything.) < 1325872792 380518 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, it could be interesting < 1325872793 654137 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty sure that already is a thing. < 1325872814 584202 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't they play 3D chess in Star Trek?-) < 1325872829 603661 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.chessvariants.com/3d.dir/startrek.html -- apparently. < 1325872848 286302 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, 4 players, two like usual, the other two on the "ceiling" < 1325872865 139157 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes that could be interesting < 1325872874 217795 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, would require 8x8x8 < 1325872874 868772 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 or more player variants are always interesting < 1325872924 635991 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course if I'm making a whole portal chess server with web-based and desktop clients I'll need a website too < 1325872930 945855 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Star Trek 3D chess is more chess on a very strange 2D board. < 1325872932 97096 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Welcome the international hub of portal chess gaming!" < 1325872939 984143 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, heh < 1325872940 459851 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :my website will be so good. < 1325872945 977299 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :missing words everywhere < 1325872954 574766 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it's got that movable-level thing going on. < 1325872989 304966 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right, movable levels. < 1325872996 9713 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be interesting to play a game of chess where you have two boards, with two different starting configurations < 1325872997 280347 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, I suppose you could call it 3D barely. < 1325873005 295657 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :and each piece on one board is connect to a piece on the other board < 1325873015 293433 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about 4D chess? < 1325873017 875133 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I think the handwavey justification for those would be that they represent starships. < 1325873021 370950 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that moving one requires you to move the other according to rules (possibly they're the same piece but you could have them do different things) < 1325873035 670182 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I suppose. < 1325873071 12379 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :and capturing a piece on one board "frees" the piece on the other board. < 1325873076 690677 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :creating an interesting strategic element. < 1325873104 300150 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :where capturing an opponent piece can actually make the pieces on the other board more dangerous. < 1325873124 225396 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :....basically I should just make chess variants all day. < 1325873126 803057 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :and get paid to do it. < 1325873129 740963 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, I fear it might end up being very annoying to play < 1325873135 654958 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: perhaps < 1325873138 340418 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :depends on the specific mechanics. < 1325873142 580983 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1325873153 694629 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :also winning conditions are uncertain < 1325873167 625631 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could be either winning on one board wins the whole game or you have to win both games < 1325873176 580261 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :with a draw being both players win one game < 1325873198 322304 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is plausible if one player focuses on their success on one board, to the detriment of the other board. < 1325873206 870764 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :gradually freeing all of their pieces < 1325873214 14843 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that it just becomes two mostly seperate games of chess < 1325873227 593782 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :or well, whatever this chess variant is called. < 1325873297 695514 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is more interested in games that have a complex but elegant set of rules, rather than wacky variants.
< 1325873358 444086 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: a solution i have is that you can make a continuous move by rolling a [0; a,b,c] continued function on a dice and stop rolling on some number on that dice < 1325873364 635150 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, I'm quite a fan of RPGs myself. I wonder if you could make some sort of chess-inspired RPG < 1325873373 881044 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :chess with sidequests sounds too weird so hm < 1325873383 799335 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I do like your suggestion that bidirectional loops change direction once per turn because it's an interesting gameplay element, I'm just not sure that it can be used strategically or if it's mostly an element of luck and circumstance. < 1325873403 697801 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if stop rolling on a "1" then.. dicerolls 2 6 4 6 5 1 results in [0; 2,6,4,6,5] < 1325873405 6882 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, you would have to time your turn to the loop to take advantage of it < 1325873405 364391 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: well I have some ideas for a real-time-strategy RPG < 1325873419 526018 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, not sure how common such loops are anyway < 1325873419 685319 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just learned about continued functions a few hours ago < 1325873509 489741 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I feel like it's going to be one of those rules that results in unintended metagameplay, which arose as a natral consequence of other rules. < 1325873522 522377 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, hm? < 1325873524 641979 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :and was originally seen as a very specific rare circumstance. < 1325873541 921657 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, because even now I can think of many possible uses. < 1325873549 297687 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :just not sure how it fits into the game. < 1325873557 849472 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, Nothing wrong with metagaming, it is kind of common in competitive computer games anyway. < 1325873589 73805 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: a difficult thing is that most games depend on the fact there are no perfect players < 1325873590 383374 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the game itself will be very glass cannony. like playing out WW3 on a chess board. both players basically have nukes and want to kill each other. now what happens? < 1325873618 69781 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, lots of explosions yay! < 1325873624 736181 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :its something i think about a lot < 1325873648 51099 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no perfect life though, or is there.. i guess one can ask the indians < 1325873655 812389 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, a lot of computer games depend on timing to ensure that < 1325873685 222201 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't time perfectly usually < 1325873690 335517 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :chess is interesting in that even by cheating you can't be a perfect player < 1325873703 519121 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: American Indians were not a perfect society living idyllic lives. kthx < 1325873706 484780 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, are you sure there is no perfect play in chess? < 1325873713 504246 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no perfect player < 1325873719 853476 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not no perfect play < 1325873732 475701 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to be a player, one must actually play :D < 1325873744 100245 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, well computers can easily beat humans < 1325873751 585128 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so some hermit in a cave who knows perfect chess but never plays anyone doesn't count < 1325873759 669378 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh < 1325873764 974633 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: cheating usually isn't regarded in defining a "perfect game" :P < 1325873765 133287 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :who said anything about such a guy? < 1325873789 641003 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for my definition of player, it is not enough to have the potential to play.. the playing must be actual < 1325873798 77497 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes and? < 1325873806 854760 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see your point here < 1325873824 955503 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :chess probably does have perfect play, just no one figured it out yet < 1325873838 579111 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i agree chess has perfect play < 1325873842 282271 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: anyway I was thinking of a game that is partially inspired by magicka, and also partially inspired by real time strategy, but not really having much in common with them... < 1325873842 600869 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it has no perfect players < 1325873861 83466 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, as of yet. Computers aren't powerful enough and the chess AIs not got enough. Yet. < 1325873876 881011 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if you are willing to cheat... even if you turn every resource to the task < 1325873878 70827 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: you would start off as a single adventurer, and gradually gather a party. the interface is RTS style. you click on people and issue orders and use hotkeys to cast abilities. < 1325873888 313759 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you cannot play in the capacity of a perfect chess player < 1325873893 314721 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at this stage :D < 1325873897 944221 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, cheating doesn't make sense in chess, what would it be? Moving two pieces in a turn? < 1325873898 103313 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: also I was considering perhaps having a system of automation, like Dragon Age. < 1325873911 393969 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :look.. umm.. < 1325873915 977891 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, never played that game < 1325873922 245157 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even IF both players talked about what move each player intended to make next < 1325873933 677890 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: cheating defines what the game is. when you permit cheating you're talking about a different game entirely. < 1325873936 220832 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhmm.. no that doesnt make sense < 1325873939 273279 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :*redefines < 1325873949 53614 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh then it is easy to solve, if you actually know what a player will do in a given situation < 1325873957 948560 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm .... < 1325873959 300498 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can just recursively apply that until you find a good one < 1325873962 526603 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is? < 1325873980 756739 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok i guess it is :D < 1325873983 200324 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it isn't restricted to next turn but can be applied to hypothetical future turns < 1325873996 687895 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you basically have a perfect "heuristic" < 1325874012 77205 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well.. this is headache material for me.. < 1325874016 640665 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and can just search down the tree of moves to figure out a variant where you wins < 1325874022 558801 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I don't know I have a feeling that chess has too many divergent possibilities for a set of rules in response to the opponent's moves that results in a guaranteed victory. < 1325874059 247963 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, hm? < 1325874064 947220 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :....nevermind. :P < 1325874083 924348 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: ok suppose that 1 player would tell his next move.. and the other one would not do so < 1325874096 250305 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric : now he will only tell his next move :D < 1325874102 168036 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, I wrote a rather good AI for othello once for an university assignment. It easily beat all humans I tried it on < 1325874119 645703 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean player A will say "if i do this what will you do?" and player B will say, i will do such and such < 1325874119 962239 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, and that just looked ahead 7 moves in searching for good positions < 1325874131 576436 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then player B does such and such < 1325874132 845374 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, used alpha-beta pruning < 1325874143 661480 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then it is player A's turn again.. and cycle repeats < 1325874153 789195 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :can player B beat player A? :D < 1325874164 144120 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :curious idea, eh < 1325874199 608099 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but....... < 1325874204 807736 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, that is just doing that algorithm to the depth 1. I assumed you mean that once player B replied what he would do then A would ask "and what if I then did this" and B would answer and so on < 1325874206 398144 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :his "what will you do?" only counts for 1 turn < 1325874210 247725 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :with no limit of depth < 1325874220 721553 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :then B can't beat A unless B can pull off perfect play < 1325874222 509869 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah.. i wasnt sure at first... < 1325874236 177068 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which might be possible) < 1325874238 380361 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i decided the latter question is more interesting < 1325874245 34887 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: also regarding magic I was going to make effective use of magic much more challenging than in other games. < 1325874250 331308 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think this is where the magicka influence stems from. < 1325874260 971909 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but instead of in an action-adventure game it's an RPG-like RTS. < 1325874275 827123 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, and sure B can beat A. You need a greater depth in searching for solutions. Even human chess players look ahead a few turns < 1325874281 366666 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well, good ones at least) < 1325874295 183122 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, omg.... chess with magicka style magic! < 1325874299 570931 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, epic win < 1325874312 278354 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: another curious question is.. whether such a system would negatively affect player A's chances of winning < 1325874340 37684 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, very good when you don't have much time. Someone will die very soon < 1325874345 756932 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :through the distraction of knowing his moves < 1325874351 97566 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, I predict game length will be a few minutes at most < 1325874357 749966 :iamcal!u1110@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zrhmfnfvskqbtrxt QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1325874376 257846 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, just imagine crossing opposite beams on top of the opposing king. < 1325874379 123624 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1325874391 192652 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :most magical abilities would take the form of a) very slow casts with powerful effects and high cost b) very slow casts with moderate effects and moderate costs c) fast weak effects with moderate cost d) fast moderate effects with high cost e) fast powerful effects with incredibly high cost leaving you completely vulnerable < 1325874408 810613 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I have no idea how such a game would work < 1325874420 914560 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, neither do I, but it sounds awesome < 1325874435 973452 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, doubtful. I'm not really good at psychology. < 1325874439 830472 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :so who knows < 1325874454 317918 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, if player A is a grand master, and player A and B are both using the most powerful computing resources available, and reasonably unbounded turn times.. and player B is giving player A his next turn < 1325874466 101274 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would wonder what sort of game would come out of it < 1325874476 344755 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe both should be grandmasters im not sure :-s < 1325874488 915244 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so then the key ideas of effective magic use involve a) picking the best spell for the best situation b) ensuring you have enough time to cast it because taking damage quickly interrupts you c) ensuring you have enough magical resources in the long-term < 1325874505 297707 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :the powerful, fast, costly spells would be a last-ditch effort when you fuck up. < 1325874515 579115 :PiRSquared17!~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 JOIN :#esoteric < 1325874525 382433 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, heh < 1325874529 710264 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am curious of what length of time would be useful for a computer in chess... < 1325874546 322478 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, so completely unlike the magic of magicka then < 1325874547 593351 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and is there a cutoff period where a computer is no longer able to efficiently use time to play chess < 1325874576 109548 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like if you give a computer a year to make a move < 1325874577 101880 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I was considering various complex magic models that would be magicka-esque, but yes... not directly like it at all. < 1325874585 305267 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :will it just sit there twiddling its thumbs < 1325874608 866192 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, sounds fairly like magic in trading card games from what I seen of them (I watched an LP, never played them myself) < 1325874624 293093 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: well assuming it's using a decision tree it will eventually run out of possibilities or hit its cutoff point. < 1325874624 449759 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, to some degree < 1325874627 265992 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :not so much the cost thing < 1325874632 594040 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is just adding mana though < 1325874636 900399 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I know nothing about that game. < 1325874647 294520 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, trading card games is a genre < 1325874651 278417 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, not a specific game < 1325874655 408527 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was considering breaking away from the traditional mana concept and having different kinds of resources < 1325874657 194470 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, like magic the gathering and such < 1325874672 505296 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: that's what I assumed you were talking about. < 1325874675 997162 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a huge fan of them myself < 1325874676 474790 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder then, if there is a specific length of time where current chess computing of a move is useless after it < 1325874699 113421 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially the business model of the companies making them pisses me off < 1325874709 670530 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it also resembles magic in WoW based on the abstract concept I provided with cast time vs. power output vs. cost. but I want the decision to be much more important than it is in WoW < 1325874731 302929 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, iirc WoW copied from some other earlier MMO < 1325874733 566778 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :good timing should be greatly rewarded, and poor execution should be punished. but you should also have a number of failsafes you can rely on when you fuck up. < 1325874737 535545 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :never played WoW myself < 1325874737 694634 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: everquest < 1325874740 77403 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1325874740 870454 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1325874768 532879 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in other words, i wonder what is currently the longest useful chess computation < 1325874782 227452 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've always been interested in magic that involves elements in your environment. < 1325874783 497053 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, I watched some videos of SWTOR, and my god does the combat look horrible. From what I heard the WoW combat works pretty much the same way, but less polished < 1325874784 173873 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it merely a question of searching an existing data set? < 1325874803 888948 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I didn't play WoW because it looks good. < 1325874809 572712 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, hotkey combat just looks so utterly boring. Mindless buttonmashing. < 1325874813 125537 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm more interested in mechanics. WoW has pretty polished mechanics. < 1325874850 737300 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes it gets dull. < 1325874853 439002 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, and from what I heard the SWTOR mechanics are indeed pretty similar. Took some ideas from other MMOs as well < 1325874893 149404 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmo's.. the worst thing to ever happen to the internet :-" < 1325874896 46206 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :WoW has had a lot of time to take form. < 1325874900 627517 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, anyway at least SWTOR seems to have a good story, which I heard was pretty bad in WoW < 1325874905 920244 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i havent played any i admit < 1325874908 30578 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes there is no story basically. < 1325874910 769145 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :no one cares about the story. < 1325874919 69221 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, I think MMOs could be good, just not hotkey ones < 1325874938 149296 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: planetside had a lot of potential < 1325874940 969380 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the last 12 years of gaming is "could be good but isnt" < 1325874941 446890 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think they're making a sequel? < 1325874961 493744 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: dunno I think gaming has developed pretty well in a very short time. Sure it's not perfect. < 1325874970 117872 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, no idea, I don't really keep track of MMOs. < 1325874980 512575 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Planetside is/was an MMO FPS < 1325874993 447635 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, problem is that there are scalability issues with more interesting form of combats < 1325874997 4126 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tidus must remind you that gaming is not a synonym for 3d rendering < 1325874999 117435 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, like, lag issues < 1325875006 328673 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, hotkey mmo is a way to work around those < 1325875006 806143 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I say "is" because it still exists and I say "was" because its userbase is mostly dead. < 1325875012 690004 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :though things are moving away from hotkey < 1325875017 578246 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :better connections and so on < 1325875028 242120 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the main causes of lag? < 1325875037 213022 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, latency < 1325875045 902184 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are of course computing issues as well < 1325875052 336794 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :but latency is the real problem here < 1325875053 694813 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are the main causes of latency? < 1325875059 292581 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: but it was basically a neverending game of base-capturing spread out across multiple planets. you could get dropped into warzones pretty quickly and there were a lot of cool multi-person vehicles. < 1325875067 172573 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :there were 3 factions < 1325875080 485478 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know these questions are getting repetitive from me < 1325875097 363223 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :leading up to, what can be done by gamers about latency < 1325875099 306732 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, I'm trying to remember < 1325875102 944296 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I read this at university < 1325875113 813957 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is of course propagation delay for the signal < 1325875116 100484 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a few algorithms < 1325875117 132193 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :then there is routing time < 1325875121 761917 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a few more factors < 1325875127 45710 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was some nifty equation for it < 1325875134 772229 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it due to the dimorphism between download speeds and upload speeds? < 1325875134 930678 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :completely forgot it < 1325875137 789718 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :one algorithm is to basically predict what will happen based on previous input < 1325875140 721109 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, no < 1325875159 426180 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, for an MMO the issue is network latency < 1325875162 160656 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://mine-control.com/zack/timesync/timesync.html < 1325875166 141534 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: yes this is what I'm talking about < 1325875170 156801 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :combating latency < 1325875185 866968 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, well you can't. There is always at least the propagation delay < 1325875193 14693 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :....yes < 1325875194 959331 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you have a wormhole, nothing you can do < 1325875195 753248 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1325875200 713624 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not suggesting you can apply an algorithm that eliminates latency < 1325875205 614053 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is obviously ridiculous. < 1325875229 975748 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well.. is latency not the same thing as connection speed? < 1325875241 740614 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, connection speed is ill-defined < 1325875258 578931 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, anyway if one guy jumps sideways while another guy shoot him, they see different scenarios. Who is correct? < 1325875262 907596 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is to say, people used to play games on 56k modems :P < 1325875264 913133 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: latency is basically the time between send and receive < 1325875271 783523 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, either way one guy is going to be pissed off < 1325875298 914145 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and now even though you can download gigabytes from powerful servers at > 2mb/s < 1325875305 861358 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :latency is still a problem < 1325875341 781971 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: dead reckoning combats this slightly by using previous inputs to predict what is about to happen, this causes the discrepancy to be a little less extreme. < 1325875354 161339 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the algorithm is good at prediction that is < 1325875367 472385 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, there is latency and there is bandwidth. Latency is the time it takes for any data to reach the other end. Bandwidth is how much data you can send. Think about a car fast car and a slow truck. The fast car can't carry as much but will reach the destination quicker < 1325875380 360203 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :for an FPS this is pretty difficult to accomplish. < 1325875389 203855 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, problem is that you can't easily predict future inputs of a human < 1325875404 578011 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't predict when someone is going to shoot. you can however predict that they're going to continue holding down automatic fire if they were already doing so. < 1325875423 240919 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, not having ranged weapons would help, though not completely. < 1325875428 943473 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: thats pretty difficult to comprehend that latency is independant of bandwidth < 1325875436 993752 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :its a royal headfuck < 1325875446 411933 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, not really < 1325875448 477455 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: bandwidth concerns how much data you can receive at any given point < 1325875455 893570 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: latency is how long it takes for data to get to you. < 1325875458 274767 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :or to be sent from you < 1325875458 910048 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1325875491 20653 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: you could be sending gigabytes of data per second but it still takes 5 seconds to be received. < 1325875491 338855 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, what about this: fill a truck with harddrives with data. You will have a HUGE latency but the bandwidth will be enormous. < 1325875499 115624 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but.. why wouldn't the latency be uniform? < 1325875511 54194 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, well that is easy, internet is best-effort < 1325875518 807203 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is why we need tcp < 1325875523 933717 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :to resend dropped packets and so on < 1325875526 160397 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so bandwidth is easier to achieve than latency? < 1325875534 57207 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: conversely, you could be receiving a single byte per second but it's received a nanosecond later. < 1325875535 169923 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really that is best-effort too < 1325875550 377987 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well.. people care more about latency than bandwidth i assume < 1325875559 807378 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, gamers usually do yes < 1325875562 69065 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :.. no they don't ;_; who am i kidding < 1325875571 791292 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :then again, a lot of people care more about bandwidth than latency < 1325875573 482851 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the internet is geared up for pro-bandwidth < 1325875581 112800 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: of course there's a point where the bandwidth becomes so small that the net effect is a perceived latency, as it takes long to receive the entire packet. this is most obviously when your bandwidth completely drops to zero (aka you disconnect) < 1325875600 827032 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, anyway there are other users on the internet, that causes the available resources to vary. Your packet might end up waiting in the input queue of a router a bit longer one time than for the next packet for example < 1325875612 367153 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would cause latency < 1325875632 491103 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so.. the question here then is... could an internet be designed pro latency? < 1325875636 836097 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at the cost of bandwidth? < 1325875648 770082 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure that tradeoff exists < 1325875667 77702 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure there might be minor tweaks you could make, but nothing major I suspect < 1325875675 700111 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're certainly connected to each other but they're not directly or inversely proportional. < 1325875692 882811 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :bandwidth can be a bottleneck to latency. < 1325875707 60585 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :and vice versa, I'd imagine. < 1325875733 846858 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, anyway there are lots of things that need bandwidth: downloading updates for your OS. Doesn't matter if it takes 1 or 2 seconds for the first bit of those to arrive from when you request them < 1325875759 637465 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :sending emails isn't very sensitive either way. < 1325875795 683000 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont understand why sending a large fille is different from sending lots of state updates < 1325875803 112956 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: intuitively you could think of bandwidth as the size of the pipe, and the inverse of latency is how fast the data is being pumping on average. < 1325875814 57746 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it like.. saying.. you can have large updates but you can't have a lot of them? < 1325875820 204867 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, intertubes :D < 1325875823 262657 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1325875853 567036 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: if you have a very small pipe and you're sending a lot of data, it's going to take longer for that data to arrive. < 1325875861 806418 :AnotherTest!~Test@94-224-27-107.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1325875863 280086 :AnotherTest!~Test@94-224-27-107.access.telenet.be PART :#esoteric < 1325875867 888151 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, not at all. The thing with a large file is that there is still latency. It is just that the time it takes to transfer the whole file is much larger than the latency < 1325875886 705024 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you don't really care < 1325875904 625458 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well there are some complications here, mostly due to TCP ACKs and so on) < 1325875935 50138 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(lets not dwell on those, I'm just pointing out I know about them if anyone (real elliott) is going to talk about them when log reading) < 1325875939 846701 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically the latency still slows the transfer but it's not very much. it's a product where the latency is a very very small quantity compared to the total file size. < 1325875945 202403 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(read*) < 1325875965 26749 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok well.. what if i pretended to send a file, but i was secretly sending a stream of my actions in an mmo >:-) < 1325875975 481637 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :then... < 1325875978 89016 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :....? < 1325875979 644669 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay. < 1325875982 71315 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, interestingly ssh file copy has/had problems on high-bw, high-latency links < 1325875992 427155 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, there was/is even a patch set to fix that < 1325876000 354061 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it that the sending will be broken up sporadically < 1325876020 920812 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes that's the latency < 1325876024 296385 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :for any transfer of data. < 1325876025 884973 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :that exists. < 1325876027 238413 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, basically it sends rather small packets thus the latency ends up being an issue due to the time it takes for TCP ACK < 1325876039 317655 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: aha < 1325876055 539863 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, here: http://www.psc.edu/networking/projects/hpn-ssh/ < 1325876060 540488 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes the pipe analogy kind of breaks down when you actually start to talk about discrete packets. < 1325876077 306035 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than a continuous "fluid" < 1325876083 146504 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, it kind of works for UDP still < 1325876087 629995 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :not just for TCP < 1325876103 859399 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, and I have no clue if it works for SCTP and so on < 1325876113 987237 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :my guess would be "sometimes" < 1325876150 958097 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(SCTP is a newer protocol that fixes several shortcommings in TCP and UDP, however it is not widely adopted yet, and might never be. Kind of cool though) < 1325876166 605400 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, if you were to try calculus on a connection speed.. the gamers ideal is that at each sampling of the speed it would be above some minimum threshold < 1325876181 607585 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, anyway kind of curious it works better for UDP than TCP... since TCP is closer to being a stream actually < 1325876185 373211 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the movie downloader's ideal is that the sum of the samples is the highest < 1325876215 202838 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, what do you mean with connection speed? < 1325876221 613143 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, latency or bandwidth < 1325876227 68751 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: well essentially latency becomes more of an issue when you're sending small packets. such as game state commands. < 1325876229 290560 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no such thing as speed < 1325876237 348194 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well forget the word calculus < 1325876255 848873 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :suppose i chose some sampling rate of 100 times per second to see how much new data has arrived sinced last sample < 1325876280 288718 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe 100 times is asking a lot < 1325876284 639364 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but for fun < 1325876295 199008 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :that measures bandwidth < 1325876299 325050 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think < 1325876314 561303 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't make sense on anything else than a download anyway < 1325876322 614793 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: in a game latency is more important because time synchronization is important. it's not a one-way dataflow. the game state of clients is depending on small bits of data that it hasn't received yet. < 1325876323 725803 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or upload of course) < 1325876335 116082 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: consequently, the player is sending packets in response to an incorrect game state < 1325876343 540127 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: so this fine-grained time synchronization issues become more important < 1325876359 170465 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :latency would seem to cause samples where no new data has arrived < 1325876381 895346 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh? < 1325876396 59349 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohhh ... no i think i am getting it slowly < 1325876407 134356 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: also it's not a large amount of data per second. so bandwidth isn't very important beyond a bare minimum. < 1325876446 863779 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets say.. all we want to send is 1 byte every 60th of a second < 1325876461 980074 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so bandwidth is not our problem in this scenario < 1325876465 194157 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :conversely downloading is a one-way stream with large amounts of data. the latency of each packet isn't very relevant or noticeable (unless your latency is extreme), but the bandwidth is, because it creates a cap on how much data you can receive per second. < 1325876485 58889 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops uhh ill extend it < 1325876495 863296 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets say.. all we want to send is 1 byte every 60th of a second, and recieve 1 byte every 60th of a second < 1325876499 288163 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know this is asking a lot < 1325876507 550187 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but just for the sake of an example < 1325876530 138299 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, no what you want to send is 1 byte in response to an event at an unknown time to notify the other end that it happened < 1325876543 24185 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :you want that to arrive as fast as possible < 1325876587 368848 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess what i am wondering here is if there is a hardware issue in latency or just dumb programmers < 1325876611 202751 :DCliche!~Klisz@c-67-176-12-54.hsd1.co.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1325876640 560552 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, generally it is out of the hands of the game developer in question. You can do various tricks to try to hide it. Like assume if someone was moving in the last update they will continue moving in the same direction < 1325876642 24727 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i always seem to say "our topic was just X, but now i realize i wanted to think about Y" < 1325876647 268496 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i do this ad nauseum.. < 1325876663 512722 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, there are some physical limitations, like the speed of light, and there are various issues in the hardware of the internet, routers and so on < 1325876664 307887 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because its just how i fucking think .. shameful as it is < 1325876690 674230 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I'd like to think more sophisticated predictions are possible if you apply some hueristics on a large input buffer. < 1325876705 331567 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, certainly, that was just a basic example < 1325876708 34790 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't know what those heuristics are. < 1325876717 215910 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, neither do I. < 1325876735 732147 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, an obvious one is "if jumping they will fall down rather than continue upwards" :P < 1325876751 883034 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: hi you know things about statistics how can you make predictions about future inputs from previous inputs. < 1325876783 78897 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have heard of that side of things < 1325876783 396400 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, for the purpose here it is enough to point out various methods exist < 1325876790 754486 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: ah well the prediction only needs to be on the input stream not on each physics tick. < 1325876792 975243 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, anyway nothing wrong with going off on tangets < 1325876798 59326 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, I do it all the time < 1325876801 436424 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i am wondering if there is problems in the actual internet which cause latency < 1325876810 841260 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which gamers could pay people to fix < 1325876829 395722 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :doubtful. There isn't really a good solution anyway < 1325876829 556272 :Klisz!~Klisz@c-67-176-12-54.hsd1.co.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1325876832 455458 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes the problem is that other people are using it < 1325876840 543226 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :if they paid a bunch of people to not use the internet for a while < 1325876842 668005 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :they could fix it. < 1325876866 398493 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the internet is effectively being spammed with junk traffic < 1325876876 509318 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is.. lets face it < 1325876877 898162 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes such as this IRC channel. < 1325876899 923412 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ha ha ha) < 1325876912 788315 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :the internet was a success because of the design of it. It is packet based rather than connection-oriented. You just send a packet and hope for the best. Then there is TCP on top which will resend packets if it didn't get an acknowledgement (of course acknowledgement might get lost too) < 1325876949 221452 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the idea of using screenshot sending to provide games seems to me a vast waste of the internet < 1325876960 135828 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean OnLive? < 1325876966 46872 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat? < 1325876967 157166 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :its very tragic waste of the net < 1325876971 205851 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah OnLive < 1325876997 215989 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1325877010 514999 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess latency matters less there < 1325877022 411179 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, the game runs on a server, it sends a compressed stream to the client. An interesting idea. And from what I heard it works surprisingly well. Well enough for games like racing games, not well enough yet for games like high-precision FPS < 1325877035 813443 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, latency matters a lot there < 1325877051 84409 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh... < 1325877054 578524 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, more so than usual < 1325877067 214369 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, when you press a button there is a delay until the server gets it and a delay until you see the result < 1325877069 597716 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1325877074 618805 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, you definitely want to keep those delays down < 1325877098 543304 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: well the positive thing is that the renderer doesn't have to make any predictions < 1325877104 622984 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :since the game state is localized < 1325877118 465770 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :a drawback is that the service /can't/ make predictions.. < 1325877121 231221 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, OnLive both needs low latency and high bandwidth (though they use some custom compression, so they get away with like 2 Mbps iirc) < 1325877121 387529 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the game state < 1325877132 677599 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or was it MBps? I don't remember) < 1325877141 525422 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, indeed < 1325877155 180803 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :for a racing game this would give vast improvements < 1325877162 91225 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :a racing game would be pretty easy to apply predictions to < 1325877171 124309 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :for a few milliseconds at a time. < 1325877176 296479 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe < 1325877177 509812 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: 2 Mbps isn't that unreasonable... < 1325877185 276622 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, fair enough < 1325877188 749481 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can pull that off with x264 and some tweaking. < 1325877193 224957 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: so the player might feel their controls lag, and their video lags, but at least the screenshots will always reflect the true gamestate :D < 1325877194 974004 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm okay < 1325877207 561616 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if the gamestate is "late" < 1325877230 594241 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'll want higher than that to get higher resolution, but still, streaming video over the Internet is quite doable. < 1325877237 73484 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, anyway, latency is usually more than a few ms. More 20 ms to my ISP even < 1325877245 862770 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :More like* < 1325877272 436934 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: that's an acceptable range for a racing game. < 1325877279 698756 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd say up to.... half a second would be okay in many cases. < 1325877283 454449 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, that is to my ISP. Not to, say, google < 1325877309 225044 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :traceroute is fucking up for me for some reason atm... hm < 1325877317 300579 :iamcal!u1110@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-glwffzytnduvznrn JOIN :#esoteric < 1325877318 570687 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The issue they'll have, of course, is bufferbloat. < 1325877321 182863 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :traceroute is very unreliable in my experience. < 1325877336 332069 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, it gets 5 jumps then "no reply" < 1325877339 867669 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :very strange < 1325877347 510021 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :it usually works to google < 1325877355 352027 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :For stupid reasons a lot of hosts like to block ICMP. < 1325877356 27392 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, i think OnLive is exploitative use of the internet < 1325877373 261442 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, yes, lattency jitter is going to be a huge issue for OnLive < 1325877385 637708 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the people who made the internet would vomit that it is used this way < 1325877388 280406 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, not really. It is best effort. It is there for everyone to share. < 1325877405 26549 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: I disagree. However, it suffers from the major implementation flaws in the infrastructure. < 1325877413 478303 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Such as "my downlink isn't 6 Gbps" < 1325877441 255264 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And "There's seconds of buffering, which breaks TCP flow control and is going to give us congestion collapse one of these days" < 1325877458 312177 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, that is for the uncompressed case. You are never going to get that. You would need like thousands of TBps at least for the backbone then < 1325877481 576901 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, surely all these constant 2mb/s connections onlive demands will overall cause more latency on the internet overall < 1325877492 974152 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, hm, OnLive breaks TCP flow control? < 1325877497 178621 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops @ repeating overall < 1325877498 803970 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I would have assumed they used UDP < 1325877508 910878 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: No, bufferbloat does. < 1325877518 261565 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :OnLive merely suffers from it like the rest of us. < 1325877537 785086 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, bufferbloat where? In the routers? < 1325877547 775707 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: In basically every device. < 1325877548 887314 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: I'd bet that if you look at total network traffic on the internet that portion would be very small. < 1325877553 709672 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, hm true < 1325877569 161027 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, you need some buffers though, or the packet drops would get excessive < 1325877573 568868 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: you're basically hating on an internet service because it's using what the internet is for. < 1325877586 739979 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: If TCP flow control were functioning correctly, a flood of constant 2Mbps connections wouldn't increase latency notably. < 1325877596 939924 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: You want packet drops. < 1325877610 206111 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, to some degree yes. But not so much it disconnects < 1325877610 682134 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: TCP flow control triggers on packet drops. < 1325877615 584802 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and indeed < 1325877621 738486 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hate screen tearing and i hate latency... < 1325877665 332524 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: But, yes, you want a *small* amount of buffering. < 1325877668 68997 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :du hast < 1325877673 149378 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: forming negative opinions about things that also requires network resources that aren't the thing you're doing is not the way to go about that hatred. < 1325877676 519865 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, a few packets per input queue or such yes < 1325877690 916682 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: you must really hate Google. < 1325877698 869447 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure how much exactly, would need careful measurement < 1325877704 585312 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The appropriate buffer size, IIRC, is a function of the bandwidth-latency product. < 1325877713 641003 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes that sounds familiar < 1325877724 498370 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, are you saying that they are usually oversized? < 1325877741 280668 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: They are typically set as a few megabytes anymore. < 1325877756 183249 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, and what should they be? < 1325877756 663648 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't like knowing that after overworked teams spend millions of $ to create something, that the audience won't truely be able to enjoy it due to technicalities < 1325877768 809256 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, that might be reasonable on the backbone for all I know < 1325877771 555323 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: On common links? ~10 packets. < 1325877780 160670 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what about the backbone then? < 1325877789 464219 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :or was that what you meant with common links? < 1325877791 92074 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: uh the teams don't spend that money themselves. they /receive/ that money. < 1325877796 990871 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I meant end-user links there. < 1325877802 849469 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: part of it < 1325877806 341263 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, okay so what about the backbone links then? < 1325877808 607392 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: On a backbone? Eh, maybe 100 packets? < 1325877812 627354 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm okay < 1325877822 324805 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :all the work comes second place to lag issues < 1325877835 844118 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_> < 1325877837 789133 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay. < 1325877853 468051 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, anyway there is always going to be lag you can't avoid due to the speed of light < 1325877858 845813 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lag is swept under the carpet < 1325877862 462260 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/lag/latency/ < 1325877868 100758 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Anyways. What we get now is when any given link is used to capacity, latency skyrockets up to about the size of the buffer in terms of time. < 1325877881 351207 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, ouch < 1325877886 622818 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, so why do people do it wrong? < 1325877903 448874 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because nobody knows better. < 1325877911 473937 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, also what about UDP? < 1325877915 165095 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :who are these people? what code is this? where is this implemented? < 1325877947 25188 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq seems to have the cynicism set in reality i was looking for < 1325877948 138114 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: Some of the buffering is in networking device firmware, some of it in kernels. < 1325877968 201330 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1325878012 441141 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so buffering is the main (avoidable) cause of latency? < 1325878023 29048 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh... < 1325878038 753642 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or filled buffers? < 1325878052 504319 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: Basically. < 1325878053 654148 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :latency is mostly caused by scarcity of resources, I would think. < 1325878076 950522 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, anyway this wouldn't help at all with UDP < 1325878078 382454 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1325878087 55536 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: so to try and get an answer to my core enquiry < 1325878090 640000 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Most things streamed over UDP have manual flow control. < 1325878110 80692 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: what would a pro-minimal-latency internet do differently to the current internet? < 1325878110 397429 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: Nope. TCP attempts to share bandwidth equally. < 1325878114 566425 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, which may be anything < 1325878141 460911 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: The only thing scarcity of resources should do to TCP streams is make them have less bandwidth available. < 1325878148 698993 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but at roughly the same latency) < 1325878177 301977 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Generally they're designed with the intent of behaving nicely with TCP flow control, though. < 1325878183 119356 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(unfortunately, not always) < 1325878190 824838 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1325878216 522107 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1325878220 793032 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1325878237 625156 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: Mostly, just have good buffer sizes in place (either via a nice buffer adjustment algorithm, or just setting them to something small that will be suboptimal in general but a hell of a lot better than what we have now) < 1325878296 495300 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: Beyond that, the Internet is actually fairly reasonable about latency. Something like half lightspeed latency... < 1325878347 986730 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if there was only 2 people using the internet at a time it would be damned fast eh? < 1325878383 89603 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :humm < 1325878390 276709 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or if there weren't seconds long buffers in between people. < 1325878454 64286 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what are the usual buffer sizes in the backbone? < 1325878466 784304 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there any way that programmers can fight these buffers without occupying IETF and Cisco? < 1325878479 30107 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I honestly don't know; it's a bit hard to measure without cracking open the devices. < 1325878491 801650 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: You can generally measure buffersize by congesting a link and measuring latency. < 1325878501 945966 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, kind of hard to do that with the backbone < 1325878512 674459 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: Start with end-user devices. They congest first, and thus are the first ones to show symptoms. < 1325878565 649796 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, hm does TCP resend the inidial SYN or is that up to the application? < 1325878579 405605 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :initial* < 1325878589 118066 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: Also, IETF and Cisco shouldn't be that hard to get to change; just hand them good AQM and voila. < 1325878599 399195 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, AQM? < 1325878619 335649 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :google says active queue management < 1325878627 291882 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1325878640 71319 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Internet routers, active queue management (AQM) is a technique that consists in dropping or ECN-marking packets before a router's queue is full. < 1325878647 696969 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what about ECN? < 1325878650 435196 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1325878664 866523 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ECN seems like a workaround for too large buffers to me < 1325878692 974185 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ECN is actually *slightly* better than the drop-packet flow control. < 1325878704 320849 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm okay < 1325878704 797564 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It allows you to signal congestion *and* get data through. < 1325878709 704522 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1325878714 318483 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, so is it used much? < 1325878727 945660 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately, there's a bunch of intermediate devices that break it. < 1325878733 642423 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1325878742 672567 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :do those devices clear the bit or something? < 1325878758 772414 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or drop packets with the bit set. < 1325878773 289426 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well they need to if their own queue is full < 1325878777 201344 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously < 1325878790 829693 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Drop packets with the "I can do ECN" bit set. < 1325878798 914161 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what? why? < 1325878819 484450 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because some hardware manufacturers have less intelligence than the average monkey. < 1325878828 456197 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't make any sense < 1325878869 968711 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq is basically the truth behind my rant about latency... but i admit i didnt know any of this < 1325878890 807535 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what he is saying is what gamers should rally behind it seems < 1325878905 243173 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyways: most hosts support ECN but don't have it on by default. < 1325878906 35671 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and others too. Consider VOIP < 1325878915 698465 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :you want low latency < 1325878940 72433 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, really? Is it default to off in windows? Linux? < 1325878953 664080 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my priority though, is gaming... i guess not everyone will agree < 1325878959 465865 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Default to off in Windows, default to "only if the other end supports it" in Linux. < 1325878964 471147 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, why < 1325878970 100814 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :those are silly defaults < 1325878972 885261 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: Search for "time series prediction", or some-such. There are too many methods. I would say in general mostly they boil down to either: (a) generate a "model" of the "system", learn the "parameters" and "current state" from past history, then run it forward and observe (fsvo of the quoted words); or (b) build a (statistical) model directly on the function "f(some amount of past) = some amount of future", and use (overlapping) pieces of the exis < 1325878973 44053 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :ting history as (input, output) samples for learning it. < 1325878974 953012 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because of aforementioned broken devices. < 1325878997 704598 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just like not everyone hates screen-tearing as much as me < 1325879001 914258 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, ah < 1325879016 149763 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, are those backbone devices or end user devices? < 1325879026 189709 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Mostly end user devices. < 1325879031 748108 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1325879052 640477 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's few manufacturers of backbone devices, and they tend to hire more knowledgable people. < 1325879074 51583 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, so linux only does it if it acts as a server I guess? Or can the server start the enabling of ECN? < 1325879172 15827 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Acting as a server, I think. < 1325879177 97934 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1325879186 473599 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should enable it and see what happens I guess < 1325879232 138410 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now that we all concede there is a solvable problem causing latency, i feel unburdened < 1325879240 685131 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The current way of mitigating bufferbloat on end user links is sickening, yet funny. < 1325879241 480029 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :... wow < 1325879248 942298 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, oh? < 1325879265 715417 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What you do is throttle your link to slightly less than max. < 1325879289 554802 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thus ensuring buffers near you can't fill. < 1325879291 658223 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1325879295 593093 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is absurd < 1325879352 577768 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. if you've got a 4Mbps link, throttle to, oh, 3.8 Mbps. < 1325879381 701700 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :does throttle here mean transmit data at that rate? < 1325879383 686034 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you will have low latency unless the backbone starts having congestive collapse. < 1325879396 395950 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: that description is so vague that it actually matches what I was thinking would work. < 1325879408 623519 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: Basically. < 1325879412 514910 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1325879432 917794 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably would work in countries with unlimited bandwidth < 1325879441 691362 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1325879447 790120 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: What you generally do is have your router (preferably one of those open firmwares) drop packets that would shove it above the set bandwidth. < 1325879472 273231 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used to do that "do Linux traffic shaping to slightly less than max bandwidth" thing when I lived in another place, because there all my SSH connections froze completely if I tried to download a file. < 1325879484 207624 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :This basically prevents you from seeing bufferbloat in your router, your modem, the ISP's modem, or the ISP's router. < 1325879485 995933 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, heh. < 1325879495 599949 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: basically compile a bunch of frequency information on N past inputs, add weights and postprocessing and filtering as desired, and then go to town on the data. < 1325879513 323486 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'll still see bufferbloat in the ISP's network or the backbone, but this doesn't really happen much. < 1325879522 357220 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(end user links fall over *well* before those do) < 1325879528 107222 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: but frequency likely isn't the only interesting "parameter" to look at for this "model" of the "system" < 1325879540 699622 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Classic bufferbloat. < 1325879550 932946 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: since i didnt understand that, i will aska few questions to clarify < 1325879585 89159 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :does "pikhq> itidus21: What you generally do is have your router (preferably one of those open firmwares) drop packets that would shove it above the set bandwidth." involve transmitting as much data as possible? < 1325879591 120418 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: No. < 1325879594 928033 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1325879602 38125 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: It means never going *above* that speed. < 1325879636 280929 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, why not just use small buffers? < 1325879644 940258 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You artifically make that your maximum speed, rather than what your link theoretically could do. < 1325879653 395554 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Some of the buffers are out of your control. < 1325879658 238539 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I'd imagine with a game system it would be reasonable to scale more recent states. this covers the case where, if a player was last seen moving right, he is very likely to continue moving right. < 1325879658 555858 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm true < 1325879664 924989 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: You can't realistically change the buffer on your modem. < 1325879678 171858 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well my modem is also my router < 1325879684 369298 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you'll need to replace router firmware to change the router buffer. < 1325879734 161572 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: oh hmmm, but if you analyze a large history of past actions, you can possibly predict when they're going to stop spamming the same input, or what they may do next. < 1325879756 243701 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: Well, you know; the (a) method typically tries to have the "model" actually represent the "system" somewhat, like if it has a structure, you'd try to model that; or if it's a physical thing, you'd do some physics; while the (b) method just picks a random "approximate a function based on data" method (say, neural nets, autoregressive models, support vector machines, whatever) and then just apply that to learn f(w_{t-4}, w_{t-3}, w_{t-2}, w_{t-1 < 1325879756 399902 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :}) = w_t, using ((w_1, w_2, w_3, w_4), w_5), (w_2, w_3, w_4, w_5), w_6), ... as the dataset; where w_t is the world at time t. < 1325879771 653194 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's also a decent chance of there being a buffer ISP side. < 1325879787 915115 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :MARKOV PREDICTION. :P < 1325879793 9610 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is the obvious answer. < 1325879797 986351 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :markov can be applied to anything. < 1325879814 895436 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it *is* a Markov process in that case, since it's a finite amount of history. < 1325879823 493503 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :excellent. < 1325879833 826926 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Markov is awesome < 1325879882 197173 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: the (a) method sounds more relevant to a game < 1325879892 967425 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :well hmmm < 1325879893 760626 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1325879895 32084 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, not really < 1325879900 790460 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :(b) is more relevant to the human inputs < 1325879904 547726 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1325879905 499261 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a) is more relevant to the game system. < 1325879907 686525 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: this may sound dumb, but, what is the best way to determine max link speed? < 1325879974 796651 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am considering mentioning this theory to my brother who is always open to ways to improve his gaming < 1325879984 757647 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I don't even think modeling the game system is a statistical problem... since you know everything about how it works. < 1325879992 371868 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: One of those bandwidth testing sites... < 1325879997 416115 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're mostly concerned with analyzing the human input. < 1325880010 741126 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yes. In that case you could try modeling the humans, and then just run the game to see what happens when they do things. < 1325880017 148778 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1325880025 1128 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, he is not going to be able to do anything about it < 1325880073 807961 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: ah ok.. so what you mean is that there is some fixed limit for a connection, and a connection will try to go faster than it? < 1325880098 463465 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: Yes, because a connection will always try to go faster until packets drop. < 1325880105 668594 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And buffers prevent packets from dropping. < 1325880112 593919 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, and it should (modulo ECN) < 1325880124 512044 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1325880149 994244 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: thanks for the terminology I have so many things to read on Wikipedia now... < 1325880168 535203 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :In that case it might be slightly difficult to go very deep (a)-style; I mean, I guess you could try to guesstimate some "goals" or something that the humans are doing. But anyway there's of course overlap between (a) and (b); if you use, say, a clustering-related thing to learn the function in (b), it might be that what you're actually doing is learning (a)-meaningful clusters. (Everyone doing clustering is always pretending the clusters they get are s < 1325880168 691708 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :omehow meaningful.) < 1325880200 845179 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, they are? < 1325880235 820868 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: uh... modeling human behaviors sounds difficult. :P < 1325880239 93 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I found that it varies a lot < 1325880252 885850 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd rather just crunch some data and derive conclusions. :P < 1325880254 393698 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Well, with sufficient amounts of exaggeration, anyway. < 1325880290 434412 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: but yes analyzing goals is something to keep in mind. < 1325880291 279080 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's just say that most people would at least like it if their clusters were somehow meaningful. < 1325880302 598927 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyone doing visualization at least. :p < 1325880312 563809 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean by clusters. < 1325880317 467256 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I missed something. < 1325880321 104950 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, okay, anyone doing visualization that's not just doing it for aesthetical reasons. < 1325880329 487900 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well yes < 1325880379 50702 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: It was just an example for a statistical model; some of them divide (in a "soft" or "hard" way) all the samples into different clusters, and then use different models (or just sets of parameters) for each individual cluster. < 1325880475 955722 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I'm not sure if I explained what the purpose is. The idea is to predict what delayed inputs will be to minimize the bad visual feedback of latency. < 1325880491 671752 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure I didn't read that far back, just the single line that was red. < 1325880629 56822 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ideal situation would be that if an input was sent at X time, it could processed as though it occured at X time on the receiving end, meanwhile the game makes predictions of what that input would have been. < 1325880632 684746 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: so is there any common name for this link throttling, router setting which would have it drop packets that would shove it beyond set limit? < 1325880671 750846 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think perfect time sync will be easy or necessarily possible, but you can at least reduce the latency interval somewhat and still get reasonable results. Attempt to have perfect time sync would probably result in glitchy visual feedback. < 1325880683 614448 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :*attempting < 1325880685 728369 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :My based-on-no-information-at-all guess about most network games (which I've understood do actually do that stuff) is that they use very simple methods for it. < 1325880700 924148 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: yes I've been researching what is commonly used. < 1325880724 513575 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: one approach is called "dead reckoning" but I haven't really found an exact algorithm. it appears to vary widely. < 1325880747 60759 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: Probably something like "traffic shaping". < 1325880752 633861 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahh < 1325880763 23591 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: You'll probably want to do the same with uplink, BTW. < 1325880790 230020 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my brother is in charge of all that stuff.. but i think he would be interested to hear this idea < 1325880832 90082 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I think if you try to do perfect time sync you'll get unpleasant stutters in game continuity, but if you allow some latency you might be able to strike a balance between time synchronization and visual continuity. < 1325880896 822528 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :(vague statement of what the solution should look like without actually going into any details of how to implement it) < 1325880944 358915 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i look forward to telling my brother about this.. < 1325880950 436622 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :((parenthetical aside noting the purpose of the previous statement)) < 1325880957 320910 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :he would go to any lengths to get better latency < 1325880999 946861 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: what idea? I'm sure someone has attempted some kind of sophisticated time sync algorithm before... < 1325881015 600000 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no i mean pikhq's link throttling idea < 1325881089 725663 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :also you don't "get better latency" you're just making it slightly more fair. so that the time you activated an input actually matters, not when it was received. At the same time you're also trying to maintain visual continuity so that the game is visually consistent. < 1325881093 948608 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1325881095 855688 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :....nevermind < 1325881098 277909 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1325881126 658625 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe this new pipe I have is slightly worse in terms of latency than the old one. It's something like 12-15 ms to Finnish places; the old one used to do sub-10, unless I misremember. (DSL sure is one "delay-full subscriber line", anyway.) < 1325881146 651847 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i will go into your topic some time when this hardware one has left my brain < 1325881233 192326 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :im approaching that morning hours when i should be just waking up < 1325881270 764043 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even the modem statistics say there's a 6+1 (down+up) millisecond inherent delay on that less-than-a-hundred-metres link alone. Phone cabling from (in this case) the 1980s is such a silly way to send bits. < 1325881315 666144 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: you don't understand.. my brother called out the isp technicians like a dozen times to get their help before changing isps.. he lives for fast connections < 1325881328 956997 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not like ultra fast < 1325881335 36356 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like a... < 1325881336 505469 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does he, by any chance, play any network games? < 1325881337 856703 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :pointless existence. < 1325881349 61028 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bet he does. < 1325881359 116768 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just that most "ping hunters" I know are in "the business" mostly for that reason. < 1325881365 375402 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :WoW, LoL, HL2, SC2, BF2 uhmm < 1325881370 961245 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so... yes. < 1325881371 476718 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i could go on < 1325881376 214208 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :=)) < 1325881388 716789 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops wait why did i list hl2 < 1325881400 844557 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i meant LFD2 < 1325881412 316654 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION would be interested to see statistics on how closely latency and game success are correlated on various online games.
< 1325881448 56242 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bet in Battlefield 3 it would be more noticeable than in, say, SC2. < 1325881453 30129 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sc1, quake, quakewars, eve < 1325881464 609375 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"An experimental estimation of latency sensitivity in multiplayer Quake 3 -- [PDF] from psu.eduG Armitage - Networks, 2003. ICON2003. The 11th IEEE …, 2003 - ieeexplore.ieee.org" < 1325881477 292946 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :where latency and fast reflexes are still important but long-term effects of strategy and economy is much more important. < 1325881482 499121 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :*are < 1325881591 966081 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so he is responsible for my connection.. so im happy with it < 1325881658 911078 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"How sensitive are online gamers to network quality?", Kuan-Ta Chen, Polly Huang, Chin-Laung Lei, Communications of the ACM, Vol. 49, No. 11, pages 34--38, lists 8 studies that have "sought to evaluate the effect of network quality on online gamers". < 1325881714 793349 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Both subjective ("oh god my ping was so high that last game") and objective (how many dudes they killed) measurements, apparently. < 1325881730 344607 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, now it's talking about marijuana. < 1325881732 627567 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Vint Cerf recommended that I start immediately blogging about bufferbloat a year or so ago, given the severity of the problem to avoid the usual publication" < 1325881741 956670 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: lol < 1325881752 615645 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: good study. < 1325881770 341338 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: "Psychologically, the pleasing sensation players experience in online games is analogous to being in the flow state after taking a mood-changing substance like marijuana." It's like they've just put this thing in, it's not like it's anyway connected to what's before or after it. < 1325881809 916974 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1325881817 699871 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :They don't even cite anyone. < 1325881825 289467 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bunch of potheads, is my guess. < 1325881827 88225 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep. < 1325881840 287232 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :metaphor-making pothead bastards. < 1325881956 16949 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@222.122.156.78 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://hg.mearie.org/esotope/esotope/rev/baa33b474417 i've just got it working after 2 1/2 months of hiatus. < 1325881987 1209 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyhow, they have some statistics about how long people keep playing some mumorpuger I've never heard of ("Shen Zhou Online") depending on network quality; on average sessions last 4 hours when latency is <175 ms, and less than one hour when it's >225 ms. But they don't have any "how well they do" statistics in-between games. I'm sure someone's collected those too, though. < 1325882099 57172 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION would be more interested in data on Starcraft 2 since it's actually played professionally.
< 1325882111 830903 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably at tournaments they have awesome network latency though. < 1325882143 872267 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's separate studies on Quake 3, UT2003, "Madden NFL Football" and "networked racing games", but based on titles I can't guesstimate if any of these cited studies have compared different (genres of) games for latency-sensitivity. < 1325882166 510532 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Many mid-range or high end home routers have traffic shaping features. They may be called traffic shaping, or �QOS� (Quality of Service). Some routers I�ve seen (I�ve seen quite a few over the last years) have a single knob to set bandwidth on both directions; they aren�t particularly useful. You want one which lets you adjust bandwidth in both directions. I�ve experimented with several < 1325882166 828374 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric : routers: your mileage will vary. Some commercial routers work really well, some less so. Sometimes these routers are marketed as �gamer routers.� " < 1325882358 617160 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: the important thing is: can you turn the knobs up to 11? < 1325882376 399 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it goes around to 0 < 1325882381 295942 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a QOS feature on this VDSL2 box, but as far as I can tell it's pretty useless. It can be used to set some precedence queues if you wanted to, say, give priority to interactive stuff over bulk downloads, and set the DSCP IP header fields of outgoing stuff, which I'm sure will do absolutely nothing. < 1325882763 477409 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1325882990 895040 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1325883095 858764 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait a second. < 1325883100 712765 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm seeing a pattern here. < 1325883110 270945 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :everytime I ask myself "how would I write X in perl" < 1325883112 813276 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should instead ask < 1325883121 948737 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :"what CPAN module already does X for me?" < 1325883141 281730 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://search.cpan.org/dist/Text-Levenshtein/Levenshtein.pm < 1325883144 437307 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, that was easy. < 1325883259 218321 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric : print distance("foo","four"); < 1325883259 411182 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric : # prints "2" < 1325883259 411375 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric : print fastdistance("foo","four"); < 1325883260 349246 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric : # prints "2" faster < 1325883265 895376 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :...so what's the catch? < 1325883314 996653 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the catch is you would develop dependancy on cpan < 1325883321 170161 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clearly, older applications relied on the slowness of distance < 1325883328 679455 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which would eventually come back to haunt you < 1325883329 879678 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just like old games that required a turbo button to play < 1325883356 674105 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Is faster in most cases" < 1325883362 302518 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what the worst-case stuff is like < 1325883373 552892 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which may be important when dealing with web-facing applications < 1325883373 749825 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the keyword of the problem turns out to be bufferbloat as pikhq said.. < 1325883378 511128 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I actually want WagnerFischer so I can configure weights. < 1325883395 403417 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the problem-mitigation is basically called QoS or traffic shaping < 1325883451 600880 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm but Wagner Fischer makes insert/delete equivalent < 1325883457 927644 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want delete to weigh more < 1325883554 686169 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is distance the number of steps to get from one string to the other? < 1325883576 30876 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1325883592 747365 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :with Wagner Fischer you can weigh different operations < 1325883596 797155 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have been in here too long then < 1325883672 418370 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :why's that? < 1325883711 232755 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :MAX [insert D between A and X] [insert D between D and X] [insert O between D and X] < 1325883800 651570 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1325883823 184218 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :MAX [shift A to the left of M] [shift X to the left of A] [insert H to the left of X] [insert E between H and X] [insert H between X and A] :P < 1325883871 17454 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know i am using fairly large operations < 1325883886 137012 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :..... < 1325883924 557824 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1325883945 821614 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and MAX [replace X with T] [insert H after T] < 1325884016 414798 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1325884140 219727 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Levenshtein distance is the ur-example they always trot out when explaining the "dynamic programming" thing. < 1325884169 75930 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm? < 1325884190 584973 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1325884200 586158 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can compute it with a dynamic programming thing; just table the Levenshtein distances between all prefixes. < 1325884290 300319 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :distance("windows", name); .. not sure about syntax of name.. is a function call that can be used to create a hierarchy < 1325884371 918106 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :could be a fun gimmicky website... compare the distance between lovers names < 1325884387 804451 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1325884428 116762 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: So how's your budding relationship with that "lax" person going? < 1325884440 273564 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1325884476 71054 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or.. it could be used for baby name generation! < 1325884481 989452 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Compared Levenshtein distances yet? < 1325884527 972062 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you take the mothers name and the fathers name, and find the name closest to the middle operation < 1325884672 766039 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :see.. im an applications guy < 1325884677 395109 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION hazards a calculation that the distance is 8
< 1325884696 398517 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can think up uses for things but not build them < 1325884708 411044 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Oh no! Or, wait, is that a good score? I don't know at all. < 1325884785 932054 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hm wait < 1325884788 108553 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also isn't it just 4 deletions and 2 substitutions? < 1325884793 636155 :Jafet1!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1325884832 777167 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i somehow considered only deletions and insertions < 1325884846 792726 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :a hazardous calculation indeed < 1325884848 63758 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :16:57:37: elliott: this Vector will, in all likelihood, remain at 0 to 2 elements. < 1325884848 220432 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :16:57:44: I could just as easily use a linked list. < 1325884848 220632 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :16:57:58: except that I think I would want random access? not sure. < 1325884852 908571 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: n=2, you already have random access. < 1325884857 899038 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The second element is one pointer dereference slower. < 1325884865 180378 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: We're actually married. < 1325884878 258094 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1325884888 647115 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: true enough. < 1325884893 647847 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :a linked list would be fine. < 1325884915 145242 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: And consing is much faster for a linked list. < 1325884968 754769 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eek, who changed github? < 1325884970 259519 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Was it fizzie? < 1325884993 378413 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :honestly this is one of those structures where efficiency is absolutely pointless to worry about. so.. default to the one that's more commonly used? < 1325885016 543338 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: Like I said, use Vector sparingly. < 1325885078 492289 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did no such thing. *whistles* < 1325885088 518448 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: :( < 1325885090 145695 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Put it back! < 1325885092 448901 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's wrong with Vector? < 1325885180 551040 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's our vector, Victor? < 1325885181 507246 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Slow updates, no sharing. < 1325885184 514680 :Jafet1!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1325885202 570500 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1325885285 555872 :iconmaster!~iconmaste@cpe-74-79-18-174.twcny.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1325885302 924486 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Their blog isn't saying anything about any changes. It seems to be mostly about drinking. < 1325885337 38939 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Such is life. < 1325885464 581205 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1325885548 630393 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1325886104 546287 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1325886147 58491 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@msseg < 1325886147 258208 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not enough privileges < 1325886153 536824 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@moseg < 1325886153 855493 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you meant: more msg < 1325886178 421552 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders what that command kallisti kept correcting to is
< 1325886187 996164 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@msg < 1325886188 315299 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not enough privileges < 1325886196 851599 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm i guess that _is_ it < 1325886206 904166 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@list msg < 1325886207 102701 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :system provides: echo list listchans listmodules listservers uptime < 1325886209 841881 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :@mossagas < 1325886210 419 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't have any new messages. < 1325886239 350780 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@mesag < 1325886239 543340 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not enough privileges < 1325886258 436967 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@messa < 1325886258 753865 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you meant: messages messages? msg oeis vera < 1325886305 649089 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@admin < 1325886305 965702 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not enough privileges < 1325886309 540233 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@list admin < 1325886309 860161 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :system provides: echo list listchans listmodules listservers uptime < 1325886349 877891 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder if they really are in system, or if it just defaults to that because of the privilege stuff < 1325886357 856642 :PiRSquared17!~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@messages? < 1325886358 174814 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, no messages today. < 1325886362 122764 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@list wefiubp < 1325886362 440358 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :No module "wefiubp" loaded < 1325886365 819882 :PiRSquared17!~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aww :( < 1325886377 667370 :PiRSquared17!~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@message PiRSquared17_ Hello! < 1325886377 826045 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you meant: messages messages? < 1325886390 675216 :PiRSquared17!~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tekk PiRSquared17_ Hello! < 1325886390 992761 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1325886399 830078 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1325886400 624388 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :PiRSquared17: don't be sad, just sit down and meditate on the mantra "finnmark" < 1325886403 166253 :PiRSquared17_!~chatzilla@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tekk = mell? < 1325886403 326460 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :PiRSquared17_: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. < 1325886412 141673 :PiRSquared17_!~chatzilla@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@messages < 1325886412 451345 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :PiRSquared17 said 22s ago: Hello! < 1325886421 979406 :PiRSquared17_!~chatzilla@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :finnmark < 1325886434 844738 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :PiRSquared17: tekk = tell, autocorrection < 1325886540 376778 :PiRSquared17_!~chatzilla@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1325886554 615754 :PiRSquared17_!~chatzilla@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@yrkk PiRS|test foo < 1325886554 774953 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unknown command, try @list < 1325886560 847584 :PiRSquared17_!~chatzilla@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@trkk PiRS|test foo < 1325886561 166241 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unknown command, try @list < 1325886565 505058 :PiRSquared17_!~chatzilla@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@trlk PiRS|test foo < 1325886565 822308 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you meant: tell url < 1325886582 22651 :PiRSquared17_!~chatzilla@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :How close is close enough? < 1325886585 356422 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 < 1325886591 767115 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :@frob f :: a -> b < 1325886592 84849 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :h . f = f . g < 1325886593 589705 :PiRSquared17!~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lev. distance? < 1325886597 291013 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :but only if unambiguous < 1325886619 709076 :PiRSquared17!~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1325886668 166538 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@fear f :: a -> a < 1325886668 325859 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you meant: faq keal learn read < 1325886678 58196 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm... < 1325886696 282130 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@fare f :: a -> a < 1325886696 440243 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you meant: arr fact faq farber free more part yarr < 1325886713 872128 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@grue f :: a -> a < 1325886714 67892 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you meant: free run < 1325886739 963875 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :@yarr < 1325886740 123390 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Get out o' me way, yeh landlubber < 1325886751 423567 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, it's exactly what it sounds like. < 1325886772 946800 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@free coerce :: a -> b < 1325886773 266386 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :g . coerce = coerce . f < 1325886832 763021 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@free id < 1325886836 198545 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :f . id = id . f < 1325886862 478704 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@free ($) :: (a -> b) -> a -> b < 1325886862 671324 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pattern match failure in do expression at Plugin/Free/FreeTheorem.hs:54:20-34 < 1325886868 471863 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@free apply :: (a -> b) -> a -> b < 1325886868 630630 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :g . h = k . f => g . apply h = apply k . f < 1325886959 914820 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1325887218 738147 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :@m < 1325887219 55390 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you meant: map messages messages? more msg . ? @ v < 1325887230 247513 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :mess < 1325887232 439194 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :@mess < 1325887232 637600 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you meant: messages messages? msg oeis < 1325887267 925766 :PiRSquared17!~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@oeis 1,3,6,10 < 1325887271 729631 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Triangular numbers: a(n) = C(n+1,2) = n(n+1)/2 = 0+1+2+...+n. < 1325887271 920087 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : [0,1,3,6,10,15,21,28,36,45,55,66,78,91,105,120,136,153,171,190,210,231,253,2... < 1325887275 711069 :PiRSquared17!~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay < 1325887307 616027 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :@oeis 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 < 1325887313 408334 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : The natural numbers. Also called the whole numbers, the counting numbers or ... < 1325887313 567072 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,... < 1325887318 642121 :PiRSquared17!~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1325887318 798757 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The interestingest. < 1325887338 937034 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@map < 1325887339 149128 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.haskell.org/hawiki/HaskellUserLocations < 1325887355 536874 :PiRSquared17!~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The requested URL /hawiki/HaskellUserLocations was not found on this server. < 1325887363 79776 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1325887384 209721 :PiRSquared17!~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should be http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/HaskellUserLocations ... < 1325887522 44357 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :@oeis 3 7 4 8 1 < 1325887527 860923 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Sprague-Grundy values for Dawson's Chess (octal game .137). < 1325887528 22514 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : [0,1,1,2,0,3,1,1,0,3,3,2,2,4,0,5,2,2,3,3,0,1,1,3,0,2,1,1,0,4,5,2,7,4,0,1,1,2... < 1325887537 647713 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :lambdabot: Actually that was just from /dev/random... < 1325887735 685873 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :PiRSquared17: /hawiki/ is where the old wiki was < 1325887759 416756 :PiRSquared17!~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@oeis 1 5 5 5 3 < 1325887766 122905 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-83-229.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1325887766 603072 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Decimal expansion of zeta(3) = sum(m>=1, 1/m^3 ). < 1325887766 895225 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : [1,2,0,2,0,5,6,9,0,3,1,5,9,5,9,4,2,8,5,3,9,9,7,3,8,1,6,1,5,1,1,4,4,9,9,9,0,7... < 1325887772 288121 :PiRSquared17!~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1325887773 795515 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-83-229.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello < 1325887776 948598 :PiRSquared17!~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1325887783 185422 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-83-229.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not my usual chirpy self today < 1325887788 605357 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-83-229.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :For I am a tad annoyed at myself < 1325887796 427687 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-83-229.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :At my ceaseless procrastination < 1325887808 478772 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-83-229.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I'm listening to Chopin. < 1325887880 68896 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-83-229.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Chopin makes me sad < 1325887886 326799 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: just put off the annoyance until later, duh < 1325887900 500540 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-83-229.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should listen to... probably anything other than Nocturne in E-flat minor < 1325887921 115803 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-83-229.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nocturne in B major, here I go! < 1325887921 870741 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-83-229.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1325887926 312643 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: PiRSquared17: oeis doesn't require the numbers to be consecutive in the sequence unless you use commas < 1325887934 946318 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Ohhhh. < 1325887942 216655 :PiRSquared17!~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1325887960 984130 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: But does it require it to be a subsequence at least? < 1325887980 329385 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-83-229.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@oeis 3 1 1 < 1325887987 283678 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: i'm not sure, check the website :) < 1325887990 144379 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@oeis 3,7,4,8,1 < 1325887993 477175 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Pascal's triangle read by rows: C(n,k) = binomial(n,k) = n!/(k!*(n-k)!), 0<=... < 1325887993 635862 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : [1,1,1,1,2,1,1,3,3,1,1,4,6,4,1,1,5,10,10,5,1,1,6,15,20,15,6,1,1,7,21,35,35,2... < 1325887999 80268 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Sprague-Grundy values for Dawson's Chess (octal game .137). < 1325887999 239531 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : [0,1,1,2,0,3,1,1,0,3,3,2,2,4,0,5,2,2,3,3,0,1,1,3,0,2,1,1,0,4,5,2,7,4,0,1,1,2... < 1325888009 673700 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it probably _prefers_ consecutive hits, though < 1325888020 521584 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-83-229.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t ord < 1325888021 313666 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Char -> Int < 1325888025 837023 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-83-229.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :> map ord "Hexham" < 1325888026 988471 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : [72,101,120,104,97,109] < 1325888036 597916 :PiRSquared17!~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :>map chr [72,101,120,104,97,109] < 1325888041 92090 :PiRSquared17!~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1325888048 361952 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-83-229.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@oeis 72,101,120,104,97,109 < 1325888049 37561 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Sequence not found. < 1325888049 514153 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Err, space between > and map < 1325888054 873435 :PiRSquared17!~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> map chr [72,101,120,104,97,109] < 1325888055 707607 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : "Hexham" < 1325888077 144053 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-83-229.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@oeis 72,101,120 < 1325888077 619649 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Sequence not found. < 1325888080 634386 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-83-229.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@oeis 72,101 < 1325888081 110835 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : a(n) = a(n-1) + Sum_{0 map ord "PiRSq" < 1325888083 689573 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : [80,105,82,83,113] < 1325888091 666410 :PiRSquared17!~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@oeis 80,105,82,83,113 < 1325888092 180722 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Sequence not found. < 1325888096 258767 :PiRSquared17!~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :o.O < 1325888096 457571 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-83-229.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :> map ord "Taneb! < 1325888097 285435 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : : < 1325888097 445412 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : lexical error in string/character literal at end o... < 1325888098 954720 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-83-229.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :> map ord "Taneb" < 1325888099 747933 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : [84,97,110,101,98] < 1325888109 946873 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-83-229.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@oeis 84,97,110,101,98 < 1325888110 422709 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Sequence not found. < 1325888117 775409 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-83-229.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@oeis 84 97 110 101 98 < 1325888118 369972 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Sequence not found. < 1325888122 106840 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@oeis 3,4,6,1,2,6 < 1325888128 630370 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Decimal expansion of the absolute value of the abscissa of the local minimum... < 1325888128 790815 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : [1,5,7,3,4,9,8,4,7,3,1,6,2,3,9,0,4,5,8,7,7,8,2,8,6,0,4,3,6,9,0,4,3,4,6,1,2,6... < 1325888136 879504 :PiRSquared17!~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@oeis 56,56,56,56 < 1325888137 712725 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Quadruplicated tetrahedral numbers A000292 < 1325888137 871837 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : [1,1,1,1,4,4,4,4,10,10,10,10,20,20,20,20,35,35,35,35,56,56,56,56,84,84,84,84... < 1325888140 92589 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-83-229.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@oeis 1 2 4 8 16 33 < 1325888141 83328 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Generalized Catalan numbers: a(n+1)=a(n)+ Sum a(k)a(n-1-k), k=2..n-1. < 1325888141 414077 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : [1,1,1,1,2,4,8,16,33,69,146,312,673,1463,3202,7050,15605,34705,77511,173779,... < 1325888149 411458 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-83-229.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@oeis 1 2 4 8 16 32 65 < 1325888149 570619 :PiRSquared17!~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadruplicated tetrahedral numbers XD < 1325888150 46848 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Base 2 digits are, in order, the first n terms of the periodic sequence with... < 1325888150 205340 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : [1,2,4,8,16,32,65,130,260,520,1040,2080,4161,8322,16644,33288,66576,133152,2... < 1325888185 916288 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-83-229.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nocturne in B Major is making me angry < 1325888197 354379 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-83-229.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :>:( < 1325888217 683919 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-83-229.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's try some Brahms < 1325888241 377162 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-83-229.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Opens quite lugubriouslty < 1325888246 531384 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-83-229.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/ty/y/ < 1325888274 828506 :PiRSquared17!~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@pl flip (.) < 1325888275 145917 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :flip (.) < 1325888280 402264 :PiRSquared17!~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@unpl flip (.) < 1325888280 719322 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(\ b c f -> c (b f)) < 1325888359 90066 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1325888528 559306 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-83-229.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, this is making me simultaneously mournful and excited. < 1325888536 873901 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-83-229.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Amazing how music can have such an affect < 1325888541 991146 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-83-229.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Effect. < 1325888545 640533 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-83-229.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :One of the two.. < 1325888616 107115 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly both < 1325888626 357537 :PiRSquared17!~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kekeke < 1325888629 884762 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :PiRSquared17: >>> < 1325888636 233850 :PiRSquared17!~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<<< < 1325888644 15233 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t (>>>) < 1325888644 849110 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall (cat :: * -> * -> *) a b c. (Control.Category.Category cat) => cat a b -> cat b c -> cat a c < 1325888656 670774 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-83-229.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t flip (.) < 1325888657 463901 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall a b (f :: * -> *). (Functor f) => f a -> (a -> b) -> f b < 1325888668 506097 :PiRSquared17!~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t (>>=) < 1325888669 299061 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall (m :: * -> *) a b. (Monad m) => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b < 1325888669 457465 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :CAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALE < 1325888684 632111 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: huh? < 1325888685 425474 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-83-229.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow < 1325888687 369079 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the real type of (>>>) < 1325888688 917547 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t (>>>) `asTypeOf` flip (.) < 1325888689 590070 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall a a1 b. (a -> a1) -> (a1 -> b) -> a -> b < 1325888692 50446 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless Ngevd means flip (.) < 1325888694 514301 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1325888696 764964 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*unless you mean < 1325888699 923921 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but (>>>) has that type standard < 1325888717 439816 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-83-229.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I feel all optimistic, thinking we can arise from the ashes of a broken society to make a new world < 1325888723 428192 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-83-229.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow < 1325888730 690904 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can't < 1325888732 80521 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::)))))))) < 1325888732 401270 :PiRSquared17!~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Chopin? < 1325888735 927286 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-83-229.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Brahms now < 1325888737 109916 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: btw < 1325888738 378548 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: i was merely pointing out that :t completely obscures their types being related < 1325888755 835736 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :challenge 1: write foo :: (Applicative g) => (forall f. (Functor f) => f a -> f b) -> g (a -> b) < 1325888759 36211 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this is trivial) < 1325888764 672512 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :challenge 2: write bar :: (Applicative g) => (forall f. (Applicative f) => f a -> f b) -> g (a -> b) < 1325888779 430895 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :laws of foo: foo f = pure g, where f = fmap g (by necessity) < 1325888797 423470 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :laws of bar: bar (fmap f) = pure f; bar (f <*>) = f < 1325888830 32931 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-83-229.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now for some Beethoven! < 1325888830 227124 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :bar (<*> f) = flip ($) <$> f < 1325888836 589620 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno if there are any other laws, those are the obvious ones < 1325888844 136262 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1325888847 982466 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1325888852 274314 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait no < 1325888856 830133 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-83-229.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am of course referring to the films about the dog < 1325888858 454989 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok dunno what bar (<*> f) should be < 1325888868 240483 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but w/e :p < 1325888887 12776 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: foo f = pure (runIdentity . f . Identity) is the obvious one < 1325888892 661678 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :bar I don't know how to implement < 1325888921 824273 :PiRSquared17!~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :are unicode characters allowed in the channel? < 1325888945 734865 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, banned, totally banned (yes) < 1325888960 146488 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-83-229.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, on the server, on the client, depends on the client < 1325888967 749788 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: erm, why won't the same implementation work for bar, Identity is a Monad < 1325889004 992972 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: will it follow the laws? < 1325889027 932822 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1325889328 58025 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1325889407 883460 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :fmap f = (pure f <*>), of course, so those are the same < 1325889525 626789 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have a hunch that any (f <*>) which has the right quantified signature must be of the form (pure g <*>) < 1325889542 859562 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: what about \x -> (pure f <*> x) <*>x ? < 1325889546 972933 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*<*> x? < 1325889554 971473 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm... < 1325889604 613512 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: but that's not of the form (f <*>) < 1325889630 861297 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: indeed not < 1325889631 972347 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... < 1325889637 252801 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t \x -> f <$> x <*> x < 1325889638 46294 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall a b (f :: * -> *). (Show a, SimpleReflect.FromExpr b, Applicative f) => f a -> f b < 1325889640 785126 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_< < 1325889646 465225 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t \x -> (?f) <$> x <*> x < 1325889647 100634 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-83-229.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1325889647 260355 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall a b (f :: * -> *). (?f::a -> a -> b, Applicative f) => f a -> f b < 1325889668 305039 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ok well bar (\x -> f <$> x <*> x) should be pure (join f), obviously < 1325889677 464967 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :does that work with the Identity implementation? i guess so... < 1325889736 9767 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think so too < 1325889893 884485 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: well that was almost interesting :( < 1325889910 178933 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1325889967 634492 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :any expression that is to be of all Applicative types must be composed of pure and <*>, i should think < 1325890014 116574 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :@test < 1325890014 311207 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you meant: let list tell < 1325890112 1070 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : Except thulium. < 1325890133 485551 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Despite its high price and rarity, thulium is used as the radiation source in portable X-ray devices and in solid-state lasers." < 1325890160 931951 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1325890180 421465 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-83-229.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Back < 1325890213 971729 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-83-229.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And now Debussy is making me feel alone < 1325890224 407678 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: IS NOTHING SACRED < 1325890314 288290 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: yes, nothing is very sacred in some indian religions. hth. < 1325890364 306216 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1325890371 683396 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :IS ALL THAT GLITTERS NOT GOLD < 1325890392 667169 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Main_Page < 1325890393 143774 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :sigh < 1325890397 106609 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: you revert it im too lazy < 1325890422 133459 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(diff) (hist) . . Language list‎; 11:31 . . (+78) . . 149.255.39.18 (Talk) (Just look at the difference just 20-30 rock solid Tea Party conservatives have made in the House already. They've turned "1/3 of the government" on its head and started a war between the establishment) < 1325890422 289986 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :not this again :( < 1325890636 418450 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :@test < 1325890636 576659 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you meant: let list tell < 1325890704 377869 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: i can't, this stupid Taneb guy got to it first < 1325890722 986761 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-83-229.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bloody Taneb < 1325890737 755732 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck taneb, worst person ever < 1325890744 411909 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION founds taneb sucks club
< 1325890760 954550 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-83-229.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can I join? < 1325890761 110766 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: also, no, gold is a counterexample to that theory. < 1325890865 84723 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK I have thought some more about continuous chess and it is the best thing < 1325890966 995510 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically, the board is a continuous square, and each area corresponding to an initial piece is instead full of continuous piece. < 1325891050 915086 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover++ < 1325891057 646158 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :How does play work? < 1325891079 660536 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless it involves derivatives or integration, I'm not interested. < 1325891084 778426 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I saw some other message somewhere about chess with continuous boards, and I have thought of similar ideas too < 1325891085 413505 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :To perform a move, you take some measurable subset of one batch of piece and move them such that the measure of the piece remains the same (this is inelegant but, I think, necessary) and \int ddp is equal to a valid move vector. < 1325891100 965003 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well of course. < 1325891134 559770 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: How do horsies move. < 1325891137 255153 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Capture consists of moving some quantity of piece over some of your opponent's piece, which erases the target piece. < 1325891142 820976 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, same way as everything else. < 1325891160 301585 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You just need to make the integral equal to a knight's move. < 1325891172 545468 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1325891192 853723 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Not restricted to the naturals, though, right? < 1325891202 227700 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i want to take credit here for bringing the terms continuous and chess together today and also to promote phatom hoover's birthday < 1325891207 280330 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1325891217 599004 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the move vectors are the standard chess ones. < 1325891222 307011 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :woo hoo right on.. real brittania < 1325891228 616292 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Hmm, right, yeah, didn't think. < 1325891233 22420 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1325891237 111985 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you can move half a knight two knight's moves, for instance. < 1325891240 310929 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: OK so let's play a game. < 1325891247 546298 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er, probably on a small board, or this is going to be completely confusing. < 1325891256 353991 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that just equates to "bigger pieces in non-standard configuration". < 1325891277 232227 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, there'll have to be some restriction placed on valid displacement vectors. < 1325891287 614970 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a pic i came up with earlier today depicting a continuous chess http://oi44.tinypic.com/2sbtmvb.jpg < 1325891308 465807 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Lame??? < 1325891312 916616 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Otherwise you can just hop your queen out basically anywhere. < 1325891313 393518 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :explosion chess < 1325891327 78620 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: OK what limit. < 1325891329 546023 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, just that you can't move piece through piece. < 1325891335 495996 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK good. < 1325891343 881238 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-83-229.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except for the knight < 1325891345 627752 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :What discrete board/configuration are we using. < 1325891350 315640 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-83-229.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I presume < 1325891357 150877 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, see, graphical display is basically impossible here. < 1325891375 653088 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You just need a real display. < 1325891377 714899 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: Those kind of idea have been done by a few other people too. < 1325891381 949047 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :BADUM TISHHSHSHSH < 1325891401 806112 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's nothing stopping you from mushing pieces out into a fractal, for instance, at least beyond the measurability constraint. < 1325891441 113957 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: well, i started to think about how my own particular idea as contrasted to phantom hoovers take on this term, as resembling the game of racetrack < 1325891447 760226 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Can't we just remove the measurability constarint. < 1325891450 130751 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :constraint. < 1325891481 580299 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: So wait, how do you capture. < 1325891485 192265 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, you said that. < 1325891521 621293 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I think you can make board configurations whose mate-yness is an unsolved problem. < 1325891530 182239 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er. < 1325891531 292415 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Check-yness. < 1325891539 871844 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Undoubtedly. < 1325891551 2072 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Simply calculating if a move is legal is nigh impossible. < 1325891602 495457 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my idea was that each move should be a straight line which can have gaps in it if necessary < 1325891615 475329 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I NOTE YOU STILL HAVE NOT PRESENTED AN INITIAL BOARD < 1325891622 83053 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, didn't I say? < 1325891637 887012 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I mean, a smaller one. < 1325891649 583928 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :3x3, king at each corner. < 1325891651 449470 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm playing around with weights on the Wagner-Fischer algorithm can have unexpected results. < 1325891654 463716 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :im reference < 1325891657 754212 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. You didn't, no. < 1325891659 975531 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: OK you go first. < 1325891693 330821 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm I don't know, perfect play sounds impossible. < 1325891717 295478 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-83-229.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, from what I understand there are an infinite number of possible moves < 1325891720 827872 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Also, *refrance < 1325891791 555741 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :video games have the luxury of finite vector representations < 1325891810 916865 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: GO ON < 1325891813 334978 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly anyway :-? < 1325891827 471591 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but math guys don't < 1325891835 738295 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :poor math guys :( < 1325891845 139426 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, assuming the playspace is [0,3]^2 and our king is at [0,1]^2 and [2,3]^2 for me and you respectively, I move [0.5,1]×[0,1] to [2.5,3]×[0,1]. < 1325891862 53071 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Proof of legality is left as an exercise to the adjudicator. < 1325891891 666754 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I appoint itidus21 as adjudicator because I am a terrible person.) < 1325891894 402015 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :dear god, what have i done < 1325891900 154358 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dear god, what has Phantom_Hoover done. < 1325891904 797420 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :dear god < 1325891908 83449 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: OK, I will have my move after approx. 3 hours of Wikipedia. < 1325891919 984023 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`pastelogs continuous < 1325891923 154324 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, aww c'mon, at least make a capture. < 1325891931 729218 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, *make capture < 1325891934 625042 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: By "one batch of piece", do you just mean a continuous blob of the same piece-type? < 1325891942 613510 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, same initial piece. < 1325891947 527117 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: That's really inelegant? < 1325891949 715790 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hidden state. < 1325891952 689762 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1325891968 835408 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`pastelog continuous < 1325891971 426218 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not really, you just have pawn1, pawn2, pawn3.... as separate pieces. < 1325891993 288100 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.2287 < 1325891995 311575 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or you could not have that, it just seemed a bit wrong to me? < 1325892017 489883 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :humm.. < 1325892024 513202 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I think you should be able to treat your line of pawns as one big pawn? < 1325892031 815295 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Anyway OK um. < 1325892034 906770 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know, i should just look at the logs for today < 1325892035 224381 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That looks like a plural. < 1325892048 586762 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Well, your row of pawn. < 1325892054 656431 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: OK um... < 1325892061 562277 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-83-229.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :God I'm too tired to spell selep < 1325892065 771200 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-83-229.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: goodnight < 1325892089 95656 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was about to grumble about vectors but then I realised my definitions work fine with that. < 1325892089 929108 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Wait, er, you moved two spaces? < 1325892099 833748 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, yes, but I only moved half my king. < 1325892109 946078 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right. < 1325892117 388294 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: [2+pi,3-chaitin's omega] to... err... < 1325892138 736583 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, no. < 1325892142 756447 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :[pi,3-chaitin's omega] < 1325892152 334649 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pi-1, surely? < 1325892157 52175 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er, yes. < 1325892162 547347 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :[pi-1, 3-chaitin's omega] to......... < 1325892167 186409 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you need to take its product with something. < 1325892170 887315 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right. < 1325892172 869163 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :THIS IS HARD. < 1325892176 199060 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And *which* Chaitin's omega? < 1325892187 833343 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"pi-1", aka the "two-pi". < 1325892198 855322 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :two-pi = tau < 1325892199 846569 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :AKA tau, qed. < 1325892200 954055 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Since it starts with a 2.) < 1325892201 430663 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1325892223 724228 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Which Chaitin's omega... I really want to say "the Chaitin's omega for the maximally-compressing language'. < 1325892225 40264 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*". < 1325892230 556057 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I somewhat doubt that's a thing, though, even theoretically. < 1325892232 656612 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't know it had to be a contiguous subset you move, anyway. < 1325892238 518400 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, Chaitin's omega for binary lambda calculus per Tromp. < 1325892238 834656 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It didn't. < 1325892241 993562 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just measurable. < 1325892253 883573 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :[pi-1, 3-chaitin's omega]*[2,3] to [help Phantom_Hoover help < 1325892269 239690 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric : * Vorpal imagines chess with HP and headshots. [...] ok, what about chess on a finite euclidean plane itidus21: what are the pieces? points? what are "turns" in a continuous space. the pieces could be circles :D [...] < 1325892269 556904 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also remove the measurability thing, I want to see elliott go all Banach-Tarski on you. < 1325892278 599418 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I was considering suggesting that. < 1325892282 421485 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I think it might be "cheating". < 1325892288 223535 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also it would take countably infinite moves? < 1325892292 189381 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, honestly, I considered that. < 1325892303 207357 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe that means it's a non-issue. < 1325892304 357684 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have fun proving the legality of that. < 1325892320 218196 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, oi, are integrals even well-defined under those circumstances? < 1325892333 906355 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Can you help me figure out a destination please im bad at arithmetic < 1325892348 176028 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not a very good Turing oracle. < 1325892370 295944 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Er, I don't think you need to be? < 1325892373 946748 :PiRSquared17_!~chatzilla@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> tau/pi < 1325892374 936832 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Not in scope: `tau' < 1325892381 796004 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: To help me figure out a simple valid destination. < 1325892383 340267 :PiRSquared17_!~chatzilla@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@let tau pi < 1325892383 499422 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : TemplateHaskell is not enabled < 1325892392 67630 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I mean, we know chaitin is 0.0something. < 1325892397 541732 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric : "WHITE LAUNCH DETECTED" [...] "E5 HIT, 1 DEAD" < 1325892398 18598 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And there's a 1 fairly early on. < 1325892400 397995 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :In binary. < 1325892406 2512 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though did you need three dimensions for at least the "standard" bit of reassembling a ball into two balls? < 1325892413 29954 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :" Climbing up the ruins of the black queen?" < 1325892414 457146 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I think so. < 1325892425 374688 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, yes. < 1325892447 175686 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: help me figure out a destination Phantom_Hoover is mean ;_; < 1325892455 40367 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ultimately it's because 2D rotation is abelian and 3D isn't. < 1325892467 920347 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't want to have any part in your "game", sorry. < 1325892476 898192 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: someone also had the great idea of using gravity in continuous chess < 1325892494 613161 :PiRSquared17!~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 QUIT :Quit: Bye! :) < 1325892494 769456 :PiRSquared17_!~chatzilla@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 QUIT :Quit: Bye! :) < 1325892498 444061 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, are you talking smack about my game < 1325892506 522111 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Come up with a destination for me or I'll join him. < 1325892509 734790 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :" itidus21, what about adding gravitation causing bent paths?" < 1325892518 511377 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :;_; < 1325892522 21934 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, it sounds nontrivial since you need to have the distance match. Well, unless of course you just move the rest of the piece too. < 1325892543 294830 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But Phantom_Hoover's move was so simple! < 1325892560 799115 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1325892568 445085 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I think moves need to ultimately consist of contiguous blocks of piece. < 1325892580 292933 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because otherwise the movement integral isn't well-defined. < 1325892593 783423 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might be more sure if oerjan would wake up, the lazy bastard. < 1325892616 256218 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: COMEUP WITH A DSETINATION OR IL RIP YOUR SOUL < 1325892685 322397 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: (Is it actually possible to come up with a destination can't you just apply ARITHMETIC>?0000) < 1325892686 432882 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, move all your pieces into a bar along the centre? < 1325892714 508342 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/pieces/piece/ < 1325892727 802279 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Yes sure. < 1325892742 279708 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: As long as there's some Chaitin on the board at the end of it. < 1325892743 235111 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'll clip my piece at [2.5,3]×[0,1], at least. < 1325892761 442109 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jesus christ, working out whether you're in check is nearly impossible. < 1325892770 845631 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1325892781 19305 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Assuming it means your opponent can capture all your piece in one move. < 1325892785 408846 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/piece/king/ < 1325892792 481938 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you have to existentially quantify over at least the reals. < 1325892820 421535 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-19-212.dhcp.embarqhsd.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1325892868 581647 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, um, you definitely wouldn't be in check after that move, because I wouldn't be able to capture 1 king with 1-whatever king. < 1325892914 693595 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Excellent. < 1325892917 644377 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also does this thing work so that you can move the back half of a full pawn backwards and left one unit, and the front half forward three units and one right? < 1325892938 315432 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I'm not sure if you've noticed, but this game is impossible to play. < 1325892939 267649 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1325892952 311710 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or was it just "move one blob" sort of thing? < 1325892965 150846 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :continuous tarpit < 1325892967 704287 :Klisz!~Klisz@c-67-176-12-54.hsd1.co.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1325892974 528492 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :!perl %x=(1,2); print scalar %x < 1325892976 748008 :EgoBot!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/8 < 1325892976 904229 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, yes. < 1325892983 68342 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Wait, really? < 1325892984 18867 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :lolwat < 1325892987 985557 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That wasn't clear frmo your description. < 1325893008 92161 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_> < 1325893018 60732 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can use piece for propulsion. < 1325893023 749089 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*from < 1325893026 518522 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: You're just making shit up now. < 1325893026 676469 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :!perl %x=(1,2); print %x == 2 < 1325893027 311100 :EgoBot!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1325893029 253646 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :!perl %x=(1,2); print %x == 1 < 1325893029 729191 :EgoBot!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 < 1325893047 174879 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also know of some chess variant where the piece on a square can be fractional (including even more than one, or less than one, but not less than zero). Pieces of the same kind and color can be combined and split as fractions; moving fractions uses up that much fraction of a move, and you can capture an opponent's fraction by your piece the same or greater fraction. < 1325893049 237090 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, no, it's a consequence of the legality integral. < 1325893068 91606 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :!perl %x=(1,2,3,4); print %x == 2 < 1325893068 727033 :EgoBot!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 < 1325893088 813786 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Ah. < 1325893109 430461 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: This must be what the Brockian Ultra-Cricket players have for an intellectual game. < 1325893113 148591 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Who were they? Cue fizzie.) < 1325893113 822773 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you move 0.5 pawn 1 backwards and 0.5 pawn 2.5 forwards it's still a legal move. < 1325893143 90456 :DCliche!~Klisz@c-67-176-12-54.hsd1.co.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1325893144 678075 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : oerjan, oi, are integrals even well-defined under those circumstances? <-- probably not. although if the board is 2d, banach-tarski doesn't apply; there _is_ a finitely additive measure on all sets invariant under 2d moves. < 1325893147 531219 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess continuous chess Ultra-Cricket is their equivalent of chess boxing. < 1325893177 71512 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, you've read the rules, I take it? < 1325893191 187374 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: So 0.5*2.5 - 0.5*1 = 1 nowadays? < 1325893200 395403 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I like how almost all moves cannot even be named. < 1325893207 594497 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/2.5/3/ < 1325893218 532894 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: And therefore an AI that doesn't have to present its move is infinitely advantaged over a human. < 1325893224 175235 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Assuming we had real computers.) < 1325893233 81019 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I like how I still have no idea what's a move and what isn't. < 1325893248 670313 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: It gets easier if you drop the measurable criterion? < 1325893255 821444 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It... does? < 1325893263 326504 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But how does the integral fit in? < 1325893266 38748 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-130.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :My head hurts now; thanks guys. < 1325893270 364639 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :!perl print 3 > 1 < 1325893270 839028 :EgoBot!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 < 1325893271 164773 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : Ultimately it's because 2D rotation is abelian and 3D isn't. <-- the technical term is "amenable", it applies to all commutative groups but also some non-commutative ones. < 1325893286 124421 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hooray for 2 dimensions... < 1325893296 450708 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Well, it... gives you one less thing to check. < 1325893304 273482 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, if it's not defined, nor is any condition I can think of for move legality. < 1325893314 139062 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, OK, what are the conditions of being able to do that integral? < 1325893342 824972 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I hate to point this out, but you haven't quite made it continuous. < 1325893347 511470 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Time is still discrete. < 1325893360 203551 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA < 1325893361 353875 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right you are. < 1325893374 633935 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um... < 1325893392 562671 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: (You might have trouble with the concept of "turn".) < 1325893394 30818 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The legality condition is the only thing that needs changing for continuous time, really. < 1325893394 666261 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i had this idea from the racetrack game that only one object should be able to move at a time < 1325893415 556617 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :...and the semantics of a capture. < 1325893424 207766 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I suppose you could just end turns when a move's worth of movement happens, and disallow "non-terminating" moves. < 1325893464 490268 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's a movesworth < 1325893479 774865 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: One vector of movement per the blah blah < 1325893493 697509 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy, i dont know fwargleblagka;gaowirg < 1325893496 143058 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : oerjan, you've read the rules, I take it? <-- i'm not even going to try. < 1325893503 505036 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION jumps off a cliff wearing his pants on his head
< 1325893547 113398 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :As I think they say in these situations, "gg". < 1325893558 856734 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It's short for "good game".) < 1325893574 846906 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: To perform a move, you take some measurable subset of one batch of piece and move them such that the measure of the piece remains the same (this is inelegant but, I think, necessary) and \int ddp is equal to a valid move vector. < 1325893588 622977 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh and < 1325893588 782081 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : OK I have thought some more about continuous chess and it is the best thing < 1325893588 938480 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : Basically, the board is a continuous square, and each area corresponding to an initial piece is instead full of continuous piece. < 1325893592 668239 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus < 1325893592 987776 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : Capture consists of moving some quantity of piece over some of your opponent's piece, which erases the target piece. < 1325893620 97864 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION moves 0.5 Phantom_Hoover into the Atlantic, and captures fizzie's upper body with 0.5 Phantom_Hoover.
< 1325893633 933751 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Glurk. < 1325893641 987795 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote * Phantom_Hoover moves 0.5 Phantom_Hoover into the Atlantic, and captures fizzie's upper body with 0.5 Phantom_Hoover. Glurk. < 1325893645 448259 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :796) * Phantom_Hoover moves 0.5 Phantom_Hoover into the Atlantic, and captures fizzie's upper body with 0.5 Phantom_Hoover. Glurk. < 1325893663 391377 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, cool I didn't realize you could allocate the space of a hash table < 1325893669 516563 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ironically, real chess on a physical board is actually continuous except for the formalities of turns and board squares < 1325893676 106678 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :keys(%hash) = 1024; < 1325893684 126287 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :resizes the hash table. < 1325893724 375723 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that last rule probably wasn't wise < 1325893744 696304 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :might be better to capture the whole piece by covering part of the piece < 1325893758 585288 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or else you are surely just torturing yourselves < 1325893761 640190 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, are you kidding? < 1325893774 540780 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know < 1325893776 91503 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :(no) < 1325893783 613106 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Capturing is really, really easy that way. < 1325893794 520492 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also it violates the spirit of continuous space and piece. < 1325893816 867877 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok ok you're right < 1325893825 182869 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i support the rule < 1325893853 665624 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed, the minute you start the game you are in check. < 1325893870 305790 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cell from dragon ball z uses these rules < 1325893897 798356 :Klisz!~Klisz@c-67-176-12-54.hsd1.co.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: SLEEP, GLORIOUS SLEEP < 1325893909 997513 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm i think this integration is essentially about calculating (displacement of center of mass) * measure moved < 1325893910 191156 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you destroy all but 1 piece of his body and he can use banarch tarski type means to regrow himself back to full size < 1325893913 842626 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Knights are even cooler this way; you can use them as low-powered, tactical snipers. < 1325893919 37511 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1325893932 613106 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, oh, that's a lot nicer. < 1325893957 503813 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :UM EXCUSE ME I SAID I WASN'T INTERESTED IF INTEGRALS WEREN'T INVOLVED < 1325893959 89876 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, except for the condition about not being able to move piece through other piece, which I added later. < 1325893959 247199 :iconmaster!~iconmaste@cpe-74-79-18-174.twcny.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have absolutely no idea how this continuous chess thing works but it sounds like the most awesome thing ever. < 1325893960 517801 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or wait, is that _divided_ by measure moved < 1325893978 699245 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, no. < 1325893979 929548 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :iconmaster, I have no idea either, and I invented it. < 1325893993 870171 :iconmaster!~iconmaste@cpe-74-79-18-174.twcny.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, a game where a single move takes hours of mathmatical calculation? CLASSIC. < 1325894008 988199 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I think it's just the displacement of the centre of mass, actually. < 1325894025 496653 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :iconmaster: njot if u ply wif c0mmurrtr < 1325894028 34321 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless there's a counterexample that hasn't occurred to me. < 1325894057 665346 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, on the plus side, calculating the centre of mass probably needs calculus too! < 1325894063 476004 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: YAAAAAAAAY < 1325894069 696172 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Have you figured out continuous time yet? < 1325894072 785834 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :iconmaster: Hours? < 1325894087 215180 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :iconmaster: Dude, it's easy to create a move whose legality is an unsolved mathematical problem. < 1325894098 134700 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1325894103 36614 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heck, you might even be able to make a move whose legality is independent of ZFC. < 1325894121 983975 :iconmaster!~iconmaste@cpe-74-79-18-174.twcny.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, for someone like ME to make a move would take,like, infinity+1 hours. < 1325894129 965809 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :AKA infinity hours. < 1325894133 575363 :iconmaster!~iconmaste@cpe-74-79-18-174.twcny.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1325894142 856510 :NihilistDandy!~NihilistD@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1325894143 651493 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: HA HA GET IT? < 1325894144 600966 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION moves 0.25 Phantom_Hoover further into the Atlantic, and captures elliott's head with 0.25 Phantom_Hoover.
< 1325894166 170824 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is the best superpower? < 1325894185 388937 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok i thought up how it can get weirder < 1325894189 977347 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :challenge: make the cantor set important. go < 1325894198 14327 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : oerjan, I think it's just the displacement of the centre of mass, actually. <-- hm oh right, if consider the _whole_ piece rather than just the part moved < 1325894200 186609 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you extend the gameboard into the physical universe < 1325894219 949653 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: So, continuous time? < 1325894229 409040 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: so when you die in continuous chess you die in real life? < 1325894240 866625 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: Reality doesn't have the necessary resolution for continuous chess. < 1325894250 338214 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: ahh i see < 1325894250 810634 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, OK, now for non-collision. < 1325894266 190891 :iconmaster!~iconmaste@cpe-74-79-18-174.twcny.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Make the rules change based on the number of continunitous segments in play? < 1325894288 661255 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :iconmaster: NOT MATHEMATICALLY ELEGANT < 1325894290 50607 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :what constitutes a "move" exactly? < 1325894300 400926 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: lol... hahah < 1325894302 897788 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahahhaha < 1325894307 773796 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A down-and dirty way would be to define it such that a move is illegal if the convex hull of the final piece contains any other piece. < 1325894318 474070 :iconmaster!~iconmaste@cpe-74-79-18-174.twcny.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok I have like no handle on what is going on I think I'll shut up < 1325894321 843957 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: i guess you need a bijection from starting positions to ending positions, and none of the lines through corresponding pairs must collide with another piece. < 1325894329 203909 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, that's better. < 1325894335 606816 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :can it be proven that a valid move even exists? < 1325894348 983438 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: But knights? < 1325894350 608819 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ideally the bijection should be measure-preserving. < 1325894352 671845 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: Yes. < 1325894354 488799 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover made one. < 1325894368 388269 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(on subsets) < 1325894374 97961 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I continue to assert that measurability should not be a condition. < 1325894388 375797 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Soooo... a move is a measure-preserving bijection which does not violate the intersection rule.