< 1326153609 556883 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Right, it's an actual change. < 1326153613 756530 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Well, it's a relatively trivial change, requires no changes to the language itself, and GHC does it... < 1326153615 918111 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has yet to figure out how to read that smiley. < 1326153617 280597 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is "GHC rejects some programs which should be accepted" < 1326153618 725960 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the name of this new extension we're discussing? < 1326153625 606232 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, it doesn't have a name, that's the problem < 1326153627 262375 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: -X < 1326153636 621991 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Defeated Monster X! < 1326153638 235141 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(That's -X followed by a segmentation fault.) < 1326153639 747128 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :...wat < 1326153648 836854 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the "extension" is that GHC removed the Eq and Show superclasses on Num < 1326153653 608920 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :regardless of whatever -X flags you specify < 1326153669 90554 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's *not* standards-compliant and code written for Haskell 98 or Haskell 2010 will break < 1326153674 238483 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this has already been observed in standard libraries < 1326153693 519032 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, I think it might be technically difficult to make this controllable by an -X fla < 1326153695 546938 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's way better < 1326153696 457378 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so cool < 1326153701 298773 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :good job GHC < 1326153728 433220 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :cause it's bad if some code writes an instance for base:Prelude.Num and other code needs an instance for haskell2010:Prelude.Num < 1326153754 136945 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think this suggests we should live with the problem < 1326153761 898903 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :which after all people have been working around for years < 1326153764 621561 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not hard to work around it < 1326153788 487607 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, I'm worried that in a few years, GHC will have fifteen divergences from standard Haskell which can't be disabled < 1326153798 108350 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: What's the practical difference between GHC springing a breaking change on everybody all in one go, and Haskell 201X doing so? < 1326153806 452165 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and are undocumented, or mentioned in passing in obscure paragraphs all over the manual < 1326153816 83757 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, ^^ < 1326153835 341922 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it's typically a good idea to perpetuate an existing flaw, building an ever-increasing base of code that will break if any changes occur, all for the sake of "not breaking code" < 1326153837 456218 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Well, I think that's a bit of a slippery slope argument. < 1326153847 145413 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, some slopes are slippery, though < 1326153848 254867 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shrug < 1326153852 443702 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i've made my case < 1326153855 296034 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Are you sure it isn't already in the docs? < 1326153855 611732 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't need to say it over and over < 1326153861 943050 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I didn't say it isn't < 1326153871 369311 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay. < 1326153888 226441 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might be "nobody's problem" since it's technically in a library, not GHC itself < 1326153893 817504 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i mean how many people read the haddocks for Prelude.Num < 1326153914 249201 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually what code would that break. < 1326153915 929272 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should not have to read the library documentation for the entire standard library to know the ways it differs from the published spec < 1326153924 960877 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :removing the superclass constraint on Num < 1326153925 374451 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, if you have «f :: (Num a) => ...», and you use Eq or Show constraints within f < 1326153934 140281 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1326153938 990337 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's not "would", this has already been observed in standard libraries, which need patching to compile under GHC HEAD < 1326153947 870849 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :the solution of course is to never use type signatures in your code. :> < 1326153951 612077 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :this ensures future compatability. < 1326153955 933477 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1326153956 606330 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1326153966 268622 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I would care a lot more about GHC being standards compliant if the Haskell standards process actually moved at a reasonable pace and added in widely-used extensions. < 1326153978 280902 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :there should be something like a type signature that's ignore. oh wait that's just a comment. < 1326153984 165435 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right now, I don't think it's practical to try and get a breaking change in through the standard at all. < 1326153985 853230 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :from now on I'm going to comment out all of my unecessary type signatures < 1326153996 702624 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :to prevent my code from breaking due to an explicit type signature that later needs to be changed. < 1326154001 900440 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, if GHC produced a Haskell Report-quality specification of the language they implement, I think it would remove most of my objections < 1326154006 740284 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they don't < 1326154015 372521 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that the Haskell Report is super high quality either < 1326154039 658538 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the Report just needs to be less conservative, and come out a lot more often (I think they're already trying to do the latter). < 1326154055 334072 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's much closer to a language description than Section 7 of the GHC Manual < 1326154113 295900 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just wanna know what language i'm using < 1326154119 543719 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that change is simple enough that you could literally just write a script that fixes all the broken code. < 1326154120 417620 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if it's specified unilaterally by some compiler writers < 1326154125 247830 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, do it < 1326154219 548633 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1326154259 127667 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : to prevent my code from breaking due to an explicit type signature that later needs to be changed. <-- ah but there have _already_ been ghc changes that required you to put signatures where you didn't before (local monomorphism when type families are used) < 1326154277 433713 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*didn't need them < 1326154281 5334 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I believee I said unnecessary type signatures < 1326154287 680976 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in the ones that aren't needed < 1326154289 175238 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :for anything < 1326154295 846023 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: they _weren't_ necessary before that change < 1326154311 866619 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay. < 1326154315 411893 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not what I'm saying though < 1326154335 508307 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least those changes only apply if you're already using an extension < 1326154347 197131 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: there's the Easy but maybe Bad way and then the Technically Correct in EVery Circumstance But Complicated Way < 1326154386 339362 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: the easy way would be to substitute every type signature that contains a Num instance with the output from GHC's type inference command < 1326154469 19832 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's not always the correct thing to do. < 1326154537 548169 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didn't ask how to do it < 1326154538 295762 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i said you should do it < 1326154563 89416 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would think the easy way is to translate the context (Num a, ...) to (Num a, Eq a, Show a, ...) everywhere < 1326154594 219110 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. < 1326154596 480212 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1326154600 180188 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it's all old code < 1326154601 181790 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :then yes. < 1326154608 144984 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, that was my assumption < 1326154618 348215 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :in #haskell it's often declared that X isn't a problem because you could just write library/tool Y < 1326154624 250809 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but most of those libraries/tools never get written < 1326154656 502619 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought that was what they say in #perl < 1326154659 235692 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :because most of the effort is all the "trivial engineering" of actually writing the damn code, debugging it, writing a test suite, documenting, packaging, publishing, etc < 1326154667 182761 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1326154671 51442 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :no in #perl it's s/write/use/ < 1326154711 22527 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: so "trivial" < 1326154716 516095 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION swats kallisti for dangerous play with fire -----### < 1326154738 374130 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway if I ever have a programming language that people use < 1326154742 493220 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :the way I'll prevent breaking code < 1326154751 663032 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :is to just make sure every change has an associated script that fixes all the old code. < 1326154760 217833 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so hard < 1326154784 653485 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :either that < 1326154833 315135 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :or I'll have some insane system whereby you can specify versions of the language and allows a module to be executed as though it were in the past PERFECTLY WITH NO DIFFERENCES AT ALL. < 1326154837 320773 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :should be trivial to implement < 1326154854 129349 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1326154866 465498 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it would be reasonable with like... "normal" code < 1326154871 171028 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes "trivial" < 1326154880 799666 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"trivial" is just a douchebag way to say "easy" < 1326154888 555656 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :low-level code would of course be pretty much impossible to accomodate in such a way < 1326154893 250364 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :except the things declared to be "trivial" aren't even easy, they're just theoretically uninteresting < 1326154908 727971 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :a problem is "trivial" if it would take 20 people 2 years to solve that problem, but they won't get a paper out of it < 1326154925 406572 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perl JIT? trivial < 1326154929 596533 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this is my life goal) < 1326154931 30335 :rdrp!~rdrp@46.222.152.51 JOIN :#esoteric < 1326154931 662860 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :right exactly < 1326154951 167845 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello #esoteric would you like to be my 20 people and help me develop a perl 5 JIT? < 1326154965 777362 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would basically be the best thing ever. < 1326154985 800253 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be "okay perl is efficient now I can stop programming in everything else" < 1326154997 917550 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not really but it would be nice) < 1326155062 337182 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what makes LuaJIT so fast. < 1326155064 665227 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Python is much closer to having a usable JIT < 1326155072 78678 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is that? < 1326155073 895948 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, I saw a detailed writeup of that once... but I can't find it anymore :/ < 1326155077 465984 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, PyPy < 1326155080 947680 :rdrp!~rdrp@46.222.152.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone wants to build an interpreter or a virtual machine for SumaMoito (see esolangs wiki) < 1326155082 80110 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right that thing. < 1326155090 255021 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :a perl 5 JIT would be theoretically interesting because it's probably almost impossible < 1326155095 128268 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :rdrp: do you? < 1326155101 534926 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i doubt it's impossible < 1326155112 282312 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, why would it be < 1326155115 738224 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: well you would need a normal interpreter as well as a JIT compiler. < 1326155119 579121 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: well, perl 5 is pretty strange :) < 1326155122 945966 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know < 1326155125 561540 :rdrp!~rdrp@46.222.152.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but i am not an expert < 1326155132 899960 :rdrp!~rdrp@46.222.152.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that codes < 1326155139 910514 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :rdrp: sounds like a learning opportunity :) < 1326155147 347658 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think atrapado mentioned having an implementation < 1326155153 703520 :rdrp!~rdrp@46.222.152.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1326155159 748579 :rdrp!~rdrp@46.222.152.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am atrapado < 1326155195 353482 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh :) < 1326155202 941922 :rdrp!~rdrp@46.222.152.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i left the laptop in the other room < 1326155217 726472 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :atrapado, meet rdrp. rdrp, atrapado < 1326155222 582277 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I think you would have to basically interpret stuff like source filters and BEGIN blocks because they're necessary at compile-time < 1326155231 94682 :rdrp!~rdrp@46.222.152.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1326155333 954976 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure this is what the perl interpreter does. before compile-time finishes (or even begins, in the case of BEGIN blocks) it has to execute Perl code. < 1326155348 248505 :rdrp!~rdrp@46.222.152.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well maybe i build something if i have time and motivation < 1326155493 655438 :rdrp!~rdrp@46.222.152.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hope it collapses < 1326155517 357448 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: maybe one day Perl 6 will have a JIT. after they finish defining the language's syntax almost entirely in Perl 6. < 1326155556 154897 :rdrp!~rdrp@46.222.152.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i expect partial optimizations, even optimizations < 1326155561 581655 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: WTF do you think Parrot is? < 1326155586 805645 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: an interpreted bytecode language? < 1326155617 713703 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/wiki/Parrot of course < 1326155701 178266 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :the example resembles Python way more than it resembles Perl. < 1326155731 880893 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it uses <> and $_ !!!! < 1326155782 730728 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah good they renamed "Parrot magic cookie" to something less stupid sounding. < 1326155793 508317 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :now it's "polymorphic container" < 1326155955 724277 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but parrot magic cookie is a good name < 1326156026 684667 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :is parrot actually good? < 1326156031 912272 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know its isntructions < 1326156073 600251 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: polly morphic cracker < 1326156122 572658 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :they should suddenly switch from Parrot to LLVM < 1326156125 82076 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be such a good idea < 1326156129 692065 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :trivial to implement too < 1326156255 923312 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: so you have your very own reduceron yet? < 1326156341 135819 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm guessing it's the target platform for @ < 1326156608 852982 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :no @ uses a nanobot network http://xkcd.com/865/ < 1326156650 699697 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :trivial < 1326156659 516010 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :just like google's failed llvm jit for python was trivial < 1326156735 177534 :Nisstyre!~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1326157051 420053 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Trivial trivial trivial. < 1326157061 382363 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : elliott: an interpreted bytecode language? < 1326157072 693226 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: Ah, it's one of those things where you're wrong. < 1326157079 385737 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :lols < 1326157079 816712 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :??? < 1326157118 95366 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wants a tool that's like LMGTFY, but also automatically clicks on an article linked to in the results and highlights a certain phrase. < 1326157125 455712 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :In this case it would be Parrot's Wikipedia article. < 1326157204 329899 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what is hoogle? < 1326157211 340136 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me hoogle that for you < 1326157216 328797 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can tell it means haskell google.. but that doesn't quite < 1326157220 645096 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@hoogle hoogle < 1326157221 169929 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't think of anything more interesting to search for? < 1326157221 498041 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :package hoogle < 1326157236 924726 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it search haskell libraries? < 1326157254 681928 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.haskell.org/hoogle/?hoogle=%28a+-%3E+b%29+-%3E+%5Ba%5D+-%3E+%5Bb%5D < 1326157254 998408 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway.. it gives me an idea < 1326157270 164147 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, http://lmgtfy.com/?q=hoogle < 1326157314 140184 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the idea it gives me is < 1326157320 348613 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: You can't assume if you learn. < 1326157331 738796 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a source code search in google and bing < 1326157341 85614 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :google had one; they shut it down < 1326157351 734879 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not yet: http://www.google.com/codesearch < 1326157351 891848 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1326157355 535731 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :derp < 1326157360 847856 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's up for a few more days. < 1326157366 675057 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1326157368 812838 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1326157401 372301 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :god damn it are there no concepts in the world that have yet to be implemented < 1326157401 846631 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :does this mean that itidus21 getting ideas actually ends up wiping them out from reality? < 1326157440 210475 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: space elevator < 1326157440 845524 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: There are, you just haven't thought of any. < 1326157469 308581 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :brainfuck on that codesearch would be nice < 1326157527 255228 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, well you'd have a better chance coming up with new ideas if you learned more of the existing ones < 1326157535 727434 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :like i think everything i've seen you say about haskell is wrong < 1326157555 698677 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.google.com/codesearch#search/&q=%22,[.,]%22&type=cs < 1326157559 157510 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :also you were unwilling to even use google to find out what hoogle is < 1326157573 720451 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a bad sign for the kind of intellectual curiosity needed to come up with new concepts < 1326157605 777406 :Nisstyre!~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1326157617 206901 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Before Haskell, it was the lambda calculus. Unfortunately, we taught him too much lambda calculus for him to use it as a symbol of whatever he needs a symbol of. < 1326157646 419766 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1326157651 708634 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :luckily haskell is a much larger language < 1326157664 879616 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's possible to go on not-learning Haskell indefinitely < 1326157678 257739 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Argh. "oocalc" (and "socalc") were relatively unambiguous, you could get to them with the characters then [tab], but "localc" is /maximally/ ambiguous, you have to type the whole thing >_< < 1326157683 818896 :rdrp!~rdrp@46.222.152.51 QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1326157685 600812 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :local c < 1326157692 144755 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :INDEED < 1326157693 891852 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol cock? < 1326157702 124575 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :dude < 1326157707 573928 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :cock isn't spelled calc < 1326157708 49317 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and < 1326157710 179858 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol has an l on the end < 1326157715 518794 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nods sagely. < 1326157724 876091 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no i in threesome < 1326157760 847368 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i found the most compact language to be unary lambda calculus 11111111111. next in line is binary lambda calculus 0010101010. and next is SK combinatory logic (SK(SKSKSK(S((SS(SSS or something. < 1326157771 427669 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about gzipped perl < 1326157782 481115 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-158-142.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: I'm not sure gzip will help. < 1326157786 961050 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :next i guess is P" < 1326157792 272553 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i bet i can write a web server in gzipped perl which is shorter than one in unary lambda calculus < 1326157794 543547 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-158-142.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perl's already pretty high in entropy. < 1326157806 548636 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_, bah, it's all ASCII < 1326157821 727025 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a 12.5% waste right there < 1326157822 714727 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :gzipped unary lambda calculus < 1326157823 982005 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-158-142.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, right, so there's some room for Huffman to help. < 1326157876 829443 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskell fanboys who don't know the language are probably less annoying than haskell bashers who don't know the language < 1326157882 413407 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't know which one is more common < 1326157895 18821 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :latter I think < 1326157915 640240 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i think so too < 1326157922 952561 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it depends how you define "know the language" < 1326157930 42901 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : i found the most compact language to be unary lambda calculus 11111111111. next in line is binary lambda calculus 0010101010. and next is SK combinatory logic (SK(SKSKSK(S((SS(SSS or something. < 1326157934 410332 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :unfortunately I'm not knowlegeable enough to discredit them. :P < 1326157935 504060 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :binary lambda calculus is obviously more compact than unary < 1326157946 853266 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :realistically very few programmers will ever see a payoff from learning haskell well enough to write practical production software in it < 1326157955 393368 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh.. i see where i went wrong < 1326157960 997910 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was measuring compact in alphabet size < 1326157970 849814 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :unary gzipped perl < 1326158015 300152 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the SK( one doesn't count since it has a variable length alphabet < 1326158055 61682 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :base256 flogscript < 1326158062 263635 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: erm there are just 4 letters, S, K, (, ) < 1326158069 75329 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure you can choose to exclude variables from your alphabets < 1326158080 13630 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090312200046AAJkBeI < 1326158081 466521 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but deep down you know you need them < 1326158084 155685 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: the alphabet is SK() < 1326158098 742564 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :your mistake is thinking that variables like "x" and "y" are part of the SK calculus < 1326158099 545141 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I can imagine what base 256 would even look like. For the 36 years I have been in the computer business, I have seen base 16 (hexadecimal) representation used and on older machines octal (base 8). Base 256 would mean that you would have to come up with 256 unique single characters for each digit of the number. < 1326158103 253175 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're not, they're used in reasoning about it < 1326158110 23189 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :^, this guy doesn't have much to show for his 36 years. < 1326158111 510194 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :actual SK calculus expressions contain only S, K, and balanced parentheses < 1326158129 758868 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :codepage 437 is printable at almost every codepoint < 1326158140 501994 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1326158151 260945 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think the only confusion is 0 vs 32 vs 255 < 1326158154 190099 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :who needs parentheses when you have trees < 1326158154 346237 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats bizzare < 1326158167 188519 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's the default on DOS / PC BIOS stuff < 1326158173 489201 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is great < 1326158180 367357 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you can just print raw datastructures for debugging < 1326158184 208666 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^bizarre < 1326158188 364835 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: As long as you're superhuman :P < 1326158189 415701 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: who needs trees when you have parentheses < 1326158193 948843 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::0 < 1326158196 893229 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, hardly < 1326158200 413278 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric ::1 < 1326158213 807542 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a lot of cases it'll be pretty obvious < 1326158231 31743 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :can parentheses make pears i don't think so < 1326158238 614986 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ya < 1326158240 651485 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :pearentheses? < 1326158253 860380 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: ahh thats the plunge where it loses the ability to make analogies about it.. when you get rid of variables.. i hate that plunge < 1326158255 154669 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :((2)(3)) pears < 1326158268 642466 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: It's called learning. < 1326158272 349564 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You seem to have an aversion to it. < 1326158347 998497 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1326158370 297030 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: imagine you've got these symbols. now imagine you've got these rules that transform groups of symbols into other symbols. < 1326158503 778906 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :now repeat those rules over and over a bunch until you can't do them anymore. < 1326158516 198292 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION good at explain < 1326158547 981737 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can imagine that the best reference for lambda calculus is the writings of alonzo church. < 1326158562 433064 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that kind of reference is not usually practical < 1326158581 861340 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :since its not broken into lessons and exercizes < 1326158596 76706 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when will people learn to write white papers as lessons and exercizes :P < 1326158621 23158 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think your problem is the references < 1326158676 638468 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my problem is big. experience in trying to learn things tells me that on some level i'm refusing to work for the understanding < 1326158708 82632 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you should do some reduction practice to get used to ski; have you tried that? < 1326158720 269481 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I recommend (S I I (S I I)) < 1326158727 722114 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIIIIIIIIIIIIII is good < 1326158732 297111 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so really it is more important for me to learn to learn than it is for me to learn lamdba calculus < 1326158774 193188 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can either learn by osmosis (this is what I try to do most of the time), or learn by doing, or learn by people beating you over the head. < 1326158789 93575 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it starts with the very small details... like my reluctance to do the dishes < 1326158840 615451 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wont give everyone the run around again on this. :D < 1326158875 164560 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-158-142.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1326158884 353572 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-244-133.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1326158908 645709 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: I think if you focused as much effort on the actual problem at hand rather explaining to yourself why you can't do something because of X which is like Y ... < 1326158925 231721 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: i have this hunch that on some level there's a part of you that is blocking any action that might improve your self-confidence. < 1326158942 732034 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i think i may have a similar part.) < 1326158944 949186 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : you can either learn by osmosis (this is what I try to do most of the time), or learn by doing, or learn by people beating you over the head. < 1326158950 93411 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :your parenthical ended up in the wrong place < 1326158959 637499 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also i think that it is often forgotten how rare knowledge of lambda calculus in the world truely is :D < 1326158965 715932 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: the third one is just the one that happens the most often. on this channel. < 1326158986 513629 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you sure you don't try it < 1326158988 769824 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in #perl, or so i hear < 1326159004 2287 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i doubt anyone i have met in my life knows it < 1326159008 965891 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :no they tried to beat me over the head but I won't let them. < 1326159009 943762 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :except at school < 1326159033 298624 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not learning by beating-over-the-head if you're not learning anything. < 1326159059 686095 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :#perl is just really really really eager to solve my XY problem. < 1326159132 822848 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :learning, when it comes down to it, requires work and effort. if there is no work and effort there will be no learning < 1326159138 17083 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: do I have some kind of reputation now? :P < 1326159168 642264 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: Yes; it's 31, which is much lower than mine. < 1326159176 141233 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: I can learn the basics of some things with very little effort. mastery takes much more time. < 1326159189 360129 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: You do have a really big X-Y problem, though. < 1326159198 159500 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean like... in general? < 1326159206 808312 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :or are you referring to a specific XY problem. < 1326159214 276043 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders if he has a big X-Y problem < 1326159263 839268 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am biding my time until i can incorporate computation into my world view < 1326159285 660267 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION computes his matrix of solidity on a daily basis. < 1326159299 337920 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: are you familiar with the 10000 hour rule < 1326159333 392341 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I don't think it generally makes sense for someone to have a chronic XY problem. it really depends on what they're doing... < 1326159339 650667 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :according to a wiki page, Platonic abstractions are not spatial, temporal, or mental they are not compatible with the later Idealism's emphasis on mental existence. Plato's Forms include numbers and geometrical figures, making them a theory of mathematical realism; they also include the Form of the Good, making them in addition a theory of ethical realism. < 1326159347 542573 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :people can be chronically bad at identifying root causes < 1326159390 699661 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i don't think you need to spend 10000 hours to learn the lambda calculus. < 1326159421 628103 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: well it's mainly that you have to actually use those 10000 hours on _something_ < 1326159433 781131 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mathematical notations are an application of symbols < 1326159437 4150 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: this is not true for all questions I've asked on IRC, but there are many times when people try to solve an XY problem when there is none to solve. < 1326159444 655635 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: IRC! < 1326159447 962651 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really just want them to answer my actual question, and leave me alone. :P < 1326159462 387267 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: well everything you have said about your irc bot thing's design so far < 1326159464 487313 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :has been terrible < 1326159465 597738 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: ooh < 1326159468 694247 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: go on < 1326159471 646661 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :symbols can be percieved through any of the senses < 1326159480 491370 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I'm inclined to think that yes, you really do have a problem. < 1326159497 213673 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: plugins are bad? < 1326159499 661117 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a weird channel < 1326159505 735657 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but symbols are not the world < 1326159520 813426 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: what did you expect? :P < 1326159527 294224 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, right, it's bad if channels see XY problems where there are none; that was my experience in #python < 1326159538 72933 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :they get a lot of clueless noobs with terrible ideas < 1326159551 2049 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so if you ask how to do something weird, they assume you are a clueless noob with a terrible idea < 1326159555 115779 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think some people actually just look for an XY problem to solve because they assume that's the case 99% of the time. < 1326159575 944019 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :in my case i had fairly good reasons for doing the weird thing, which took a while to explain < 1326159585 403055 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-140.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1326159589 948658 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i was asking which Python text-templating library would be best for generating C++ code) < 1326159593 670088 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: smell symbols? taste symbols? < 1326159598 937171 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: yup < 1326159612 486382 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually many questions I've asked on #perl were asked while in the process of figuring out /what/ I want to do. so I go in, ask some insane question, and they respond with disdain and THEN ask what I'm trying to do. < 1326159616 705561 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should be the other way around. < 1326159626 907149 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which is a pretty WTF question, but I had a good reason < 1326159650 5384 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as for taste, the army developed a device which can touch the tongue and feed data into the brain from a camera which can be percieved as a black and white image in the visual field < 1326159652 856468 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :something like that < 1326159668 596733 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: so far the only bad idea I've had is attempting to hotswap my code sanely. < 1326159676 155627 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :er rather < 1326159691 904373 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :bad idea I've had and mentioned extensively on this channel, about my IRC bot. /anti-lawyering < 1326159727 830100 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: also the thing where you used hideous eval tricks to do plugins < 1326159733 213600 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the "let's run plugins in their own directory" thing < 1326159742 797101 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :"hideous eval tricks" = perl's internal import mechanism < 1326159743 642861 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: about smell.. if you can discriminate smells then when exposed to a series of different smells you could detect patterns < 1326159744 814935 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :speaking about #haskell because i have experience there, some specific questions are almost always XY problems < 1326159749 693937 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the "oh i don't like perl 5's oo system... so instead of like using one of the alternate ones I'll just do more insane metaprogramming" thing < 1326159750 999719 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :like "how do I convert IO Int to Int" < 1326159752 107784 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :also... everything < 1326159759 513771 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :or "how do I do with type classes" < 1326159768 737041 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/// < 1326159772 327698 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this i can understand.. but LC is not so easy < 1326159780 178903 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: insane metaprogramming is basically what I do with a slightly complicated project in a dynamically typed language. < 1326159783 502068 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's great. < 1326159784 790025 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"How do I define a typeclass?" "Don't. Whatever you're doing stop." < 1326159789 752653 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty much < 1326159791 691859 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: Right. So you have an X-Y problem, and it's yourself. < 1326159792 800381 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-244-133.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1326159796 617412 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: noep < 1326159826 857843 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am not writing an IRC bot to distribute to people. I am writing an IRC bot to play around with and have fun. < 1326159847 109400 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm free to do terrible things at my leisure. I might discover something good. < 1326159866 53059 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is quite surprising to me that computation is really just a branch of mathematics.. < 1326159885 273272 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is a big mental shift < 1326159905 759894 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: that's utterly irrelevant to the question of whether or not you're doing things that you really shouldn't and should instead do < 1326159917 465017 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is what the X-Y problem is all about; it's not "just for you" if you're asking other people to help with your problems. < 1326159919 563154 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :something which can be drawn from this is the idea that brains are not necessarily computers < 1326159941 302681 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, that's not a justified inference < 1326159941 462136 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: sure it is. because what should I do? what is right in a programming situation? in this case something is an XY problem if the thing I'm asking about is actually /incapable/ of solving the problem at hand. < 1326159971 581388 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: if it works but disgusts people. I... don't really care. < 1326159977 33061 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :brains discovered more mathematics than what can be computed < 1326159978 420523 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry. < 1326159991 663933 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: god this is stupid < 1326159994 481943 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it suggests to me that minds/brains are beyond computers < 1326160000 355886 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I don't have an X-Y problem because I don't care" < 1326160007 745149 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so nihilist and edgy, man! < 1326160012 104933 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : brains discovered more mathematics than what can be computed <---- false < 1326160013 912236 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: no. I also explained why it's not an XY problem. < 1326160023 518419 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you say so < 1326160030 500957 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :because what is the correct thing to do depends on why you are programming something. < 1326160034 662200 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is why as well as a how and a what. < 1326160046 505698 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric : >:-) < 1326160091 822393 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: who the fuck uses - dashes in an ascii arrow? < 1326160093 317396 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're sick < 1326160096 998241 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1326160108 364531 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1326160109 798113 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*4 dashes < 1326160115 675889 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: also I do use OO just not fully. my plugin code is not "eval tricks". and I'm still not really sure why changing the CWD is a bad idea. < 1326160153 757225 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: i forget which stage comes after denial but i look forward to it < 1326160166 500758 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott++ < 1326160179 613992 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1326160185 933933 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :anger. < 1326160188 983049 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: fuck you < 1326160210 754318 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't believe you exposed my terrible XY problem. < 1326160212 650504 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :great; i can deal with anger < 1326160251 706129 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :all these eval tricks and changing of current directory so that plugins can easily refer to state within their directory < 1326160262 85281 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :all not what I wanted < 1326160339 895953 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :(next stage is bargaining) < 1326160361 197979 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: how about you explain to me what the problem is with changing the CWD and I'll fix it so that it adhers to The Standards of What Is Good. < 1326160361 749009 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll stop bugging you if you give me lots of money < 1326160367 131425 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :no that isn't bargaining < 1326160369 743741 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i get literally nothing out of that < 1326160378 876336 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :you get to sleep easy. < 1326160380 204694 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 JOIN :#esoteric < 1326160398 309940 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :net disconnected < 1326160458 708218 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: oh btw the Storable interface is not actually automatically persistent and stuff. < 1326160475 757382 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor is it tie-able or anything like that. < 1326160480 295524 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't propose Storable, I proposed a tie thing. < 1326160489 812255 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1326160504 38660 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes the last thing you proposed was Storable. I was simply informing you that it doesn't do that. < 1326160512 238488 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are obviously other ways to do it. < 1326160513 38695 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok my view of computers is that they are basically representations of humans by humans for humans < 1326160569 583423 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am curious whether they will ever achieve sentience but i feel it is unlikely < 1326160627 758840 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :why < 1326160640 113067 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't you simulate a brain with a computer < 1326160654 232591 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Causal powers, man. < 1326160658 874177 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like.. if you hollowed out a dead man's brain and replaced it with an electronic device.. theoretically you could have that device send signals to the body to move, just as an action figure moves < 1326160663 721390 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :depends on if the universe is in general computable, I think. < 1326160680 849883 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, even if it's not, why would we assume brains use the magical non-computable parts < 1326160690 262220 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes there's that as well. < 1326160693 967195 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that is still a dead body < 1326160695 433496 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can simulate a brain with a computer, unless magic is real and brains are magic < 1326160704 342349 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20, you are free to define "dead" that way, yes < 1326160708 500566 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: The body-moving isn't really the interesting part of a brain. < 1326160710 682802 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably you could simulate brain physics. < 1326160714 93101 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: For bad values of magic < 1326160724 347390 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1326160730 687924 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: You could wire a computer-simulated brain up to a robot. < 1326160731 442836 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then you also have to consider that the brain exists in a biological system. it has to grow and develop from an embryo. < 1326160731 599125 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I think that's as good a value of magic as you're ever going to get. < 1326160735 204470 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :natural processes are predictable and therefore simulatable < 1326160739 243192 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's just an engineering problem. < 1326160742 14039 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore anything which cannot be simulated is supernatural < 1326160757 466344 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :now some natural processes can only be simulated stochastically / statistically < 1326160769 599716 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway I've already created a conscious entity. < 1326160772 690134 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it's very happy. < 1326160775 64535 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott knows. < 1326160777 954270 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :which leads to the common "quantum consciousness" loophole argument < 1326160782 936691 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :which i think is bunk for a couple of reasons < 1326160783 92949 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: a lot of the state in my bot is things I'd like to be human-editable. < 1326160793 862621 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: still, I could write my own tie for it. < 1326160800 205977 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :first of all, why would a stochastically predictable system with randomness be any more "conscious" than a deterministic system < 1326160817 769393 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :second, what exactly physical structure in the brain exhibits unusual / quantum-coherent behavior < 1326160819 443835 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh ho a question for #perl < 1326160833 998101 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems really unlikely that meat at above room temperature would have sophisticated quantum mechanical properties < 1326160848 908735 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the main prerequisite of life appears to be the capacity to die forever < 1326160852 153937 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a library that implements persistent hash tables that serialize to a human-editable file format? < 1326160868 546220 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20, you sound kinda stoned < 1326160881 17951 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean once a body truely dies.. its dead < 1326160887 673554 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :theres no undying < 1326160890 751998 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20, you have defined the words such that this is true < 1326160894 274393 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if its only a bacteria < 1326160895 374887 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: the main prerequisite to being able to die appears to be being able to be alive. < 1326160898 744290 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :circular logic is circular. < 1326160901 134397 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: Why do you care about bodies? < 1326160913 886052 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :all life seems to have a body :P < 1326160917 766205 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20, basically, if I show you a technology that revives a dead bacterium, you will retroactively claim that it was "not really dead" < 1326160932 959124 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Well, that _is_ practically the definition of information theoretic death... < 1326160958 755695 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: hmmm... i will say that such technology suggests people could be brought back to life :D < 1326160966 871223 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if developed enough < 1326160968 343075 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20, i think they could, with sufficient technology < 1326160973 25423 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20, are the Hela cells alive? < 1326160973 500156 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :wrt our existing definition of "dead" < 1326160994 196301 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont know what a hela cell is < 1326160998 986448 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hella cells < 1326161012 402780 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HeLa < 1326161022 552599 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20, we should build some kind of global hypertext information network, which could be used to answer questions like "what's a hela cell" < 1326161060 527291 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Anyway, I think it's reasonable to claim that anything you can revive isn't dead. < 1326161071 834246 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, that's not a claim, it is a definition of the word "dead" < 1326161075 364911 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it is a reasonable definition < 1326161083 614260 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think that's exactly itidus20's problem < 1326161086 671889 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1326161107 458575 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :LET'S ARGUE ABOUT DEFINITIONS, EVERYBODY! < 1326161108 572328 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20, you're making statements about your own definitions of words, but phrasing them as if they were empirically testable facts about the universe < 1326161118 694488 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the laws of physics don't give a shit whether you are "dead" or not < 1326161121 864780 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :its a good way to start a religion :P < 1326161133 899239 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an arbitrary term humans have invented in order to efficiently categorize different arrangements of matter < 1326161140 665591 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: You seem to really enjoy beating your head against a brick wall. You must love #haskell. < 1326161145 971010 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :to predict them more efficiently without knowing microscopic details < 1326161153 372579 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, itidus20 is the brick wall? < 1326161160 518296 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: I can't possibly comment. < 1326161181 968704 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`searchlog itidus troll < 1326161188 603901 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: So, yes. < 1326161198 711156 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so how come y'all hang out in a channel full of crackpots and trolls < 1326161211 911116 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :2011-07-31.txt:10:31:31: partially because you get the sense of control over music... unlike neighbors noise which cannot be controlled < 1326161216 132997 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: "Full of"? < 1326161218 939141 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :weird < 1326161225 94313 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who're the crackpots? < 1326161226 519496 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fsvo < 1326161234 156381 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: I count one. < 1326161251 741456 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are like five people here i've personally seen an accusation of trolling against < 1326161257 637676 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i've only been active a few days ;P < 1326161266 546657 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :People who aren't trolls can troll. < 1326161269 575875 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i accuse myself of trolling occasionally < 1326161271 478377 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how you make a trollproof IRC channel. < 1326161276 9622 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :For instance, shachaf. < 1326161278 151155 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :however < 1326161280 725805 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1326161292 145858 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Do I troll? < 1326161294 707167 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1326161316 637908 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. This seems like it could get into another argument about definitions. < 1326161320 5753 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though my methods of arguing use fallacies, and even though i like to argue for arguments sake, i stand by my things < 1326161337 220679 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :things is a nice vague word < 1326161337 377068 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The definition of "troll" has been progressively diluted. < 1326161337 870769 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is "is" as "is" is? Discuss. < 1326161351 878737 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you do deliberately mislead people on #haskell for humorous purposes a lot. < 1326161363 347779 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, while elliott had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had itidus20's approval. < 1326161425 802072 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :given that lambda calculus is a model of computation, and that i refuse to comprehend LC properly, i love the question of whether the mind/brain/nervous system/etc is beyond a computer < 1326161437 807484 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :This seems pointless. < 1326161458 705702 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know that you are all being your own universes anyway < 1326161460 209193 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the question of whether the brain is beyond a computer is beyond your brain < 1326161473 650435 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it will be a long time before anyone can prove any of these things < 1326161486 660645 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: tip: whenever you say "anyone", say "I" < 1326161496 678470 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and question whether you can really predict everyone else's abilities < 1326161507 210311 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION takes a completely extensional and reductionist view of consciousness. Hence pet.txt. < 1326161512 375305 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And elliott being a murderer. < 1326161515 437915 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :its called prediction :D < 1326161525 478028 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: so your basic complaint with my use of CWD was that it would be more sensible for the core code to hand out persistent hash tables and maintain them so that the plugin code doesn't have to worry about it, right? < 1326161525 634361 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ttants: extensional, existential < 1326161584 199215 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: The main reason is that it's really stupid, and there's no reason the current working directory should be privileged over the other trillion pieces of global state a Unix process running Perl has; furthermore that the way to make certain things local to a piece of code is not to rely on mutating a system global all the time to provide the illusion of a scope. < 1326161596 7859 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :What to do instead is another matter. < 1326161607 730793 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it also concerns me that computation leads to cubicles instead of frolicing in nature < 1326161616 90852 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :something is not quite right with that picture < 1326161637 568360 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like something is missing < 1326161646 531597 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if computers are necessary < 1326161699 138569 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok no that was trolling < 1326161720 574422 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :KALLISTI KEEP GOING < 1326161764 274688 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Does your computer frolick in nature? < 1326161764 658122 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it's too damn cold to frolic in the nature around here, anyway < 1326161771 350531 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*frolic < 1326161773 815672 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :despite what those ski freaks say < 1326161774 662570 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Magicke. < 1326161807 948155 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the computers give nothing back < 1326161831 447861 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: You anthropomorphise approximately 100% more often than you should. < 1326161842 404019 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it's privleged because it makes it less of a pain to refer to datafiles related to the program. And yes, I want them to be in one directory because I want them to be self-contained modules. the plugin directory can possibly contain anything (you dump in an entire subprogram and then hook it up to the bot with a simple glue script) < 1326161852 430837 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: also, the "illusion" is scope is actually not difficult to maintain at all. < 1326161856 9914 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :*of scope < 1326161870 231816 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: what other bits of unix state should I be concerned with? < 1326161880 295440 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: don't you mean that he should anthropomorphise 100% _less_? < 1326161898 962288 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't that... equivalent? < 1326161901 443848 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: He anthropomises 100% more than he should. < 1326161922 106410 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION swats kallisti for failing at percentages -----### < 1326161926 815461 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: Is there a polite way of telling you that your response indicates to me that I won't be able to convince you you're wrong, and so I really don't think it's worth either of our time for me to bother trying? < 1326161967 113802 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: sure. you can do it indirectly as you just did. To me, your lack of a convincing explanation is simply evidence that you don't actually have a good reason to convince me with. < 1326162009 902156 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: To quote the Austrian philosopher kallisti, "I... don't really care". < 1326162022 503862 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/the // < 1326162046 176939 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I don't really see how what I said was incorrect. < 1326162063 168894 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: i was just suggesting an improvement. < 1326162082 451779 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Well, okay. < 1326162293 467062 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: so you don't really have a reason other than "it's gross" and "it's stupid". okay cool. < 1326162336 913980 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Puzzle: I didn't sleep last night. When is the optimal time to go to sleep so that I wake up at ~08:00 tomorrow? < 1326162358 149166 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :how often do you normally sleep? < 1326162360 646344 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: What response are you exactly trying to solicit in response to that? It's basically just a smarmy "ha ha, you can't convince me, COOL!" so you're not going to get more than a "fuck you"... < 1326162367 448679 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :and, how often do you stay up late? < 1326162372 356154 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: How long do you usually sleep? < 1326162378 859787 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And what time is it now? < 1326162379 295824 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I don't know. < 1326162383 503861 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And when did you wake up last? < 1326162383 660614 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's 18:25 now. < 1326162388 295520 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't remember. < 1326162394 994824 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It sometimes takes me a few hours to wake up. < 1326162403 309568 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, when did you get up, roughly. < 1326162405 983129 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :In like a 3 hour window. < 1326162410 881672 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'M AN EXPERT DAMMIT. < 1326162417 232881 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :11-13? < 1326162418 658814 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe. < 1326162422 430291 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I was hoping for perhaps an explanation of a flaw with the current system? an example, for example. < 1326162429 312069 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :...I may have stayed in bed a long time after "waking up". < 1326162463 748989 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I don't just prod you because I like to make you suffer. I'm actually looking for improvements but I'm currently unconvinced that this is something that needs changing. < 1326162469 726075 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-140.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1326162472 612755 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-155-225.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1326162487 607840 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: if you have like... actual evidence of a flaw then I would be grateful to hear about it. < 1326162512 385945 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: 20:00 to 23:00; probably ideally before 22:00. I disclaim this advice even more than any other advice I give because of lack of decent information. < 1326162540 452930 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Did you hear elliott's exciting proposal for MonadZero yesterday? < 1326162542 202115 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you don't care about waking up early I'd just go to bed whenever. < 1326162546 555262 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'd like* it. < 1326162556 99177 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: HE'LL JUDGE ME. < 1326162560 731851 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I have an appointment at 09:30. < 1326162578 847381 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Yes, so you probably don't care much about waking up early, but don't want to wake up late. < 1326162584 713471 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I just mentioned it in #haskell and now people are asking. < 1326162588 221229 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go join #haskel and tell them. < 1326162593 140991 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, 19:00 to 22:00 or something. < 1326162595 677485 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :#haskell < 1326162638 177142 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1326162660 129678 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: They weren't doing that much lambdabot nonsense a few minutes ago! < 1326162681 675576 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I might be able to avoid explaining it! < 1326162689 676872 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope. < 1326162700 277974 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :cmccann is there; it's the perfect opportunity. < 1326162744 670108 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Not until somebody who isn't you asks!!! < 1326162754 46714 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Peaker asked right before you joined. < 1326162759 618406 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :05:29 < Peaker> shachaf: nope, what was it? < 1326162762 875463 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but I didn't hear it. < 1326162763 509186 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :05:29 < Peaker> shachaf: where was it? < 1326162767 699611 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now you heard it. < 1326162773 498775 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1326162776 125823 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am deaf to quotes. < 1326162829 16166 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: You gotta do what you gotta do. < 1326162915 611020 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I see. I was just baiting the wrong person. < 1326163022 76043 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :did not hear < 1326163275 621920 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :dynamic scoping actually works really well with global variables. < 1326163287 761989 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it kind of eliminates some of the criticisms of global variables. < 1326163302 724452 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Hear what? < 1326163411 208687 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like how quick dolio was to blame me. < 1326163424 284082 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example Data::Dumper has both package configuration variable and instance members that you can set to override the global behavior. < 1326163428 435349 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Well, you *are* awful. < 1326163440 463365 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oftentimes it's a huge pain to use the OO interface and set all of the members every time you want to dump something. < 1326163451 23276 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so instead you can locally redefine the global variables for your program. < 1326163462 127385 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Did you know that erus` hasn't accepted my answer on SO yet? < 1326163466 580950 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Truly a scoundrel < 1326163469 120181 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*. < 1326163500 215504 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Oh. Surely erus` has accepted your answer in erus`'s heart. < 1326163536 44575 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :also perl has fun features such as "delete local" < 1326163558 775721 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: This awkward silence in #haskell is palpable. < 1326163573 456149 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :!perl $x = 2; local $x = 3; delete local $x; print $x < 1326163575 94016 :EgoBot!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :delete argument is not a HASH or ARRAY element or slice at /tmp/input.981 line 1. < 1326163579 414890 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric ::o < 1326163676 837837 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :!perl use v5.10; %x = (1,2); {delete local $x{1}; say $x{1} || "nothing"} say $x{1} < 1326163677 821280 :EgoBot!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing \ < 1326163685 697757 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :01:27:39 quicksilver: Yep. There should be a foldl' genericLength. < 1326163687 478989 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I think there is. < 1326163692 331923 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh? < 1326163697 163891 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is it called? < 1326163701 637062 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, there isn't. < 1326163706 712915 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But there's specialisations for Int and Integer. < 1326163712 722324 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :{-# RULES < 1326163712 878764 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : "genericLengthInt" genericLength = (strictGenericLength :: [a] -> Int); < 1326163712 878967 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : "genericLengthInteger" genericLength = (strictGenericLength :: [a] -> Integer); < 1326163712 879079 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : #-} < 1326163712 879188 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :strictGenericLength :: (Num i) => [b] -> i < 1326163713 197144 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :strictGenericLength l = gl l 0 < 1326163715 257226 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : where < 1326163717 157257 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : gl [] a = a < 1326163719 295406 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : gl (_:xs) a = let a' = a + 1 in a' `seq` gl xs a' < 1326163721 233210 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :strictGenericLength should probably be exported. < 1326163723 53251 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And be called genericLength' instead. < 1326163732 402823 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe it should be called genericLength. < 1326163742 884656 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And genericLength should be called academicGenericLength < 1326163744 354004 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: But I want length x < (4::Nat) to work. :( < 1326163768 233754 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Paul Graham says you should just write a function called "length<". < 1326163790 912255 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Gross. < 1326163844 672286 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Can you make grep -i less slow? < 1326163848 698579 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: In Common Lisp. < 1326163852 343073 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Yes. < 1326163858 810885 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I want you to suffer. < 1326163871 278452 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the only reason I disabled the "speed" option in the default Arch distribution of grep. < 1326163876 429206 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you logrepping? < 1326163900 500119 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :`searchlog year of tool < 1326163918 466627 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :2012-01-09.txt:10:23:53: no doubt because of my revolutionary searchlog tool of the year. < 1326163924 720146 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1326163933 298886 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`searchlog year of the tool < 1326163958 607640 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, kallisti update < 1326163966 142014 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1326163981 960956 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is not lying. < 1326163988 828792 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I was. < 1326163991 61976 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat `which log` < 1326163994 371329 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :cat: `which log`: No such file or directory < 1326163997 771271 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run cat `which log` < 1326164001 675480 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​#!/bin/sh \ cd /var/irclogs/_esoteric \ if [ "$1" ]; then \ grep -P -i -- "$1" ????-??-??.txt | shuf -n 1 \ else \ file=$(shuf -en 1 ????-??-??.txt) \ echo "$file:$(shuf -n 1 $file)" \ fi \ < 1326164005 665179 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti really got update guys honest < 1326164008 236698 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run cat run < 1326164012 352386 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :cat: run: No such file or directory < 1326164016 458251 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`bin/run cat bin/run < 1326164020 974135 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/run: No such file or directory \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/run: cannot execute: No such file or directory < 1326164051 522169 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: If I go to sleep too early, will I wake up in the middle of the night feeling depressed? < 1326164073 847989 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I pretty much am unable to think right now due to sleep deprivation. < 1326164128 521685 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Do you have melatonin? < 1326164132 24527 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do I pop off the first word of a string in bash? < 1326164138 482890 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: As a matter of fact, I do! < 1326164140 573593 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION just takes melatonin if he wakes up in the night post-sleep-deprivation. < 1326164149 292681 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That means you might oversleep though. < 1326164157 981862 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sucks to be you! Invest in an alarm or something. < 1326164162 309945 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Wait, that's not how you're supposed to use it, is it? < 1326164169 284985 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Probably not, but it works. < 1326164172 388093 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought it was for taking right before your "regular sleeping hour". < 1326164181 849732 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't like to be dependent on it because it makes me groggy, so I only take it when I really need to get to sleep and can't. < 1326164191 608541 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Anyway, "middle of the night" is relative. < 1326164209 470497 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you wake up at 4 am, that's *four whole more hours* before you have to be up! < 1326164217 471564 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's like winning the free time lottery. < 1326164230 491175 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I thought it was supposed to be very different from, you know, a sleeping pill. < 1326164249 714937 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it makes you tired. That's sort of what your body uses melatonin for? < 1326164259 645500 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, if you're trying to establish a decent sleep pattern, yes, you should take it regularly. < 1326164282 295461 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's not like it can do anything worse than mess up your sleep a bit. < 1326164360 338799 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, kmc: Did you hear elliott's exciting proposal for MonadZero yesterday? < 1326164381 738821 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: It was decided in #haskell that it's not actually exciting. < 1326164390 641477 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott feels dejected now, I think. < 1326164402 387263 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm quitting the Haskell community FOREVER. < 1326164409 996136 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The proposal is: class MonadZero m where { mzero :: m a; mfail :: b -> m a; mfail _ = mzero; mzero = mfail (error "mzero") } < 1326164454 692926 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1326164486 835769 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :This lets you have informative pattern-match failure error strings without leaking source-code position information into non-IO code. < 1326164535 426681 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell oerjan Fixed @check < 1326164575 183913 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Come to think of it, mfail should probably be called mpatternfail or something, in that it's not useful for actually reporting errors in general. < 1326164668 187726 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell elliott @tell oerjan Fixed @check < 1326164701 552789 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1326164703 980944 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell oerjan Fixed @check < 1326164709 561220 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1326164717 467002 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: What if I just go to sleep now? < 1326164727 379124 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: What time is it? < 1326164729 507926 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is seriously a zombie. < 1326164731 91697 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :19:05 < 1326164754 211165 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I sleep for 10 hours I'll wake up at 05:00. < 1326164755 93146 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :!perl my $x = "hello"; length $x = 4; print $x < 1326164756 834897 :EgoBot!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't modify length in scalar assignment at /tmp/input.3107 line 1, near "4;" \ Execution of /tmp/input.3107 aborted due to compilation errors. < 1326164761 272938 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: You'll wake up between 3 and 9 or so. < 1326164770 723081 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Knowing me, I'll probably wake up around 23:00 and not be able to get to sleep again. < 1326164776 103709 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you sleep as long as I do after sleep deprivation 11:00. < 1326164780 892996 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's not likely. < 1326164802 208314 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I somewhat doubt you'll wake up at 23:00 if you've been awake that long. < 1326164810 400521 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: You'd be surprised. < 1326164818 199648 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But there's no real point staying up for the sake of a few hours. < 1326164830 883776 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION walked to Menlo Park today. It was crazy, man. < 1326164851 396597 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The thing is that as soon as I close the computer, I won't be able to fall asleep. < 1326164852 664867 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@check True < 1326164853 778464 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : "OK, passed 500 tests." < 1326164854 95326 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I read that as "walked into". < 1326164859 307228 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I was, thinking, like, "accidentally?" < 1326164869 398534 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was planning to do laundry today. < 1326164871 940126 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not much chance. < 1326164883 685451 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@messages < 1326164884 159906 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott said 2m 59s ago: Fixed @check < 1326164950 669327 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`log zjoin.*diag < 1326164962 428979 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :2011-12-31.txt:18:54:46: > let zjoin = diag . scanl1 (zipWith (flip const)) where { diag = concat . takeWhile (not . null) . map (take 1) . foldr (\x xs -> x:map (drop 1) xs) []}; x = [[[1,2],[3,4]],[undefined]] in (zjoin $ zjoin x, zjoin $ map zjoin x) < 1326164980 468600 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@let zjoin = diag . scanl1 (zipWith (flip const)) where { diag = concat . takeWhile (not . null) . map (take 1) . foldr (\x xs -> x:map (drop 1) xs) []}; x = [[[1,2],[3,4]],[undefined]] < 1326164981 897137 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Defined. < 1326165001 226534 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Watch as oerjan attempts proof by QuickCheck. < 1326165021 879803 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: QuickCheck still doesn't support @let. < 1326165022 828850 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@check \ll -> zjoin (zjoin (ll :: [[Int]])) == zjoin (map zjoin ll) < 1326165023 978149 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Couldn't match expected type `[a]' < 1326165028 714808 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or does it? < 1326165031 445441 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/QuickC/@c/ < 1326165034 995150 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1326165038 674199 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Well, Cale just fixed it. < 1326165041 374874 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :So maybe he reworked it. < 1326165047 216684 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can never know with Cale. < 1326165053 304972 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t zjoin < 1326165054 218031 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall a. [[a]] -> [a] < 1326165069 961260 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh duh < 1326165071 534939 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :> zjoin ["oerjan", "elliott"] < 1326165075 866199 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : mueval-core: Time limit exceeded < 1326165077 813505 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@check \ll -> zjoin (zjoin (ll :: [[[Int]]])) == zjoin (map zjoin ll) < 1326165080 821054 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : "Falsifiable, after 12 tests:\n[[[-7,-4,-5,-8,0,5,6,-7],[-4]],[[7,-7,-1,-3,... < 1326165086 876106 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA < 1326165090 753652 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you get the wrong zjoin < 1326165094 789937 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like how it doesn't tell you what went wrong. < 1326165097 332133 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*I < 1326165123 500045 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: What happened to all those times when you didn't capitalise your 'i's? < 1326165127 814217 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you Bourbaki? < 1326165139 20584 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the character limit on IRC again? < 1326165146 608871 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :300? < 1326165159 703250 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Yes. < 1326165159 859457 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let ll = [[[-1,-2],[-2],[2,-4],[2,-4,-4]],[[],[1,3]]] in (zjoin (zjoin ll), zjoin (map zjoin ll)) < 1326165160 813079 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :a billion / have fun < 1326165161 542419 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : ([-1,3],[-1]) < 1326165167 362454 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: you can raise it by getting a short hostname < 1326165168 430540 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: 512, including prefix < 1326165179 177841 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :And connecting to a server with a short hostname < 1326165180 479805 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let ll = [[[-1,-2],[-2],[2,-4],[2,-4,-4]],[[],[1,3]]] in (zjoin (zjoin ll), map zjoin ll) < 1326165182 351541 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : ([-1,3],[[-1],[]]) < 1326165191 909216 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: where is server hostname in the message? < 1326165194 956090 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, server-to-server messages? < 1326165196 539662 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Where < 1326165204 791207 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think they are < 1326165209 580730 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh? < 1326165222 755810 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :When servers send your message to other servers < 1326165238 576133 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION will try out the sleep thing. < 1326165275 480874 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1326165277 579704 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Enjoy! < 1326165330 134555 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let ll = [[[-1,-2],[-2],[2,-4],[2,-4,-4]],[[],[1,3]]] in (zjoin ll) < 1326165331 876794 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : [[-1,-2],[1,3]] < 1326165417 292377 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :R.I.P. monad < 1326165423 174829 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1326165486 6075 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: don't give up hope!!! < 1326165491 64470 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you can rectify the shape < 1326165532 280377 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah it's pretty obvious what happened when you see it < 1326165598 438340 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott TOPIC #esoteric :Breaking news: ZipList still not a monad! | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ < 1326165674 48921 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, zjoin ll has no chance of preserving the information of the shape of the elements pruned away < 1326165699 709873 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :> [1..] < 1326165701 513204 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Could not find module `Control.Monad.Writer': < 1326165701 668751 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : It is a member of the hidd... < 1326165712 440641 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 2 < 1326165713 90937 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION blinks < 1326165713 566019 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Could not find module `Control.Monad.Writer': < 1326165713 726802 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : It is a member of the hidd... < 1326165715 950088 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :@undefine < 1326165721 166601 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :whew < 1326165723 979417 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 2 < 1326165724 808024 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Could not find module `Control.Monad.Writer': < 1326165724 964267 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : It is a member of the hidd... < 1326165727 431393 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_> < 1326165731 971012 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: no, proceed to panic < 1326165739 640528 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :@unerd < 1326165740 343716 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unknown command, try @list < 1326165740 541747 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@undefine < 1326165742 798004 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 2 < 1326165743 470927 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Could not find module `Control.Monad.Writer': < 1326165743 627105 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : It is a member of the hidd... < 1326165744 770897 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :@undefloon < 1326165745 290471 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unknown command, try @list < 1326165767 395166 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let ll = [[[-1,-2],[-2],[2,-4],[2,-4,-4]],[[],[1,3]]] in (zjoin ll) < 1326165767 891577 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :@und < 1326165768 47828 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Could not find module `Control.Monad.Writer': < 1326165768 204580 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : It is a member of the hidd... < 1326165768 818781 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you meant: undefine undo < 1326165780 6218 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1326165781 114983 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's weird, it must have happened seconds ago < 1326165823 999345 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@undefine < 1326165833 181865 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :How is "ZipList not a monad" breaking news? I remember someone attempted to make it a monad, I guess that failed? < 1326165838 485429 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :> help < 1326165839 592181 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Not in scope: `help' < 1326165845 289444 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION swats Sgeo -----### < 1326165847 703740 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :YES I DID < 1326165863 963008 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: oh it's actually not a monad? < 1326165869 876898 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1326165879 549671 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :XChat forgot my settings again. < 1326165887 468239 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: not with the definition i made, and i don't see how to repair it. < 1326165895 103400 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Anyway, couldn't you, instead of pruning, "rearrange" the shape? < 1326165923 507213 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pad things out by repeating shapes in places that won't affect the joined shape, and use the padded spaces to put the awkward pieces of the other argument. < 1326165926 240562 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: for rectangular lists the outcome is fixed < 1326165931 532657 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, there's no other argument. < 1326165934 101792 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you sort of know what I mean. < 1326165942 967519 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Yes, but you could behave specially for non-rectangular lists. < 1326165955 750310 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok so lessee < 1326165963 233907 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 2 < 1326165964 344068 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : 2 < 1326165971 674902 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shocking < 1326165975 945639 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :!perl substr("", 0,undef,"...") < 1326165976 839298 :EgoBot!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Modification of a read-only value attempted at /tmp/input.5704 line 1. < 1326166034 11851 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@let zjoin = diag . scanl1 (zipWith (flip const)) where { diag = concat . takeWhile (not . null) . map (take 1) . foldr (\x xs -> x:map (drop 1) xs) []} < 1326166035 1146 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Defined. < 1326166111 797068 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, it's breaking news where? < 1326166112 906671 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Hey, do you still have that horrible value-mutating code? < 1326166120 76688 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :not handy < 1326166133 455449 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, topic < 1326166143 664931 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, http://hpaste.org/52266 < 1326166171 893316 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@check \ll -> (not . null . drop 1 . group $ map length ll) || zjoin (zjoin (ll :: [[[Int]]])) == zjoin (map zjoin ll) < 1326166173 475220 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : "OK, passed 500 tests." < 1326166186 438034 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: cool, thanks < 1326166189 176699 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1326166191 631080 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@check \ll -> (not . null . drop 1 . group $ map length ll) || zjoin (zjoin (ll :: [[[Int]]])) == zjoin (map zjoin ll) < 1326166193 372176 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : "Falsifiable, after 393 tests:\n[[[-2,-1,8],[-1,3,-8,5,-8],[3,-6],[3,2,0,4]... < 1326166194 9495 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, .... why? < 1326166196 538571 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :darn < 1326166208 980934 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: wouldn't you be happier not knowing? < 1326166235 151856 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, seems sarcastic... I'm guessing someone somewhere made a big deal of this and was mocked for it < 1326166248 672900 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"ZipList is not a monad" is probably one of those things which seems obvious if you live in #haskell < 1326166253 735113 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf this rarely fails < 1326166255 635407 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but isn't actually written down somewhere you'd find it < 1326166269 259788 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: oerjan had a definition of join he thought would work but didn't < 1326166273 759540 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and is apparently trying to repair it now < 1326166278 511727 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: i haven't been mocked much yet < 1326166285 915416 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: not really much hope < 1326166289 279701 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1326166296 304118 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is interesting in seeing a proof it's not a monad, though, since I've just seen people assert it isn't based on vague arguments < 1326166300 602828 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*interested < 1326166319 783550 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think the amount of "oral tradition" in Haskell is bad < 1326166340 428109 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION hasn't seen that much oral tradition. < 1326166385 350408 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are a lot of things #haskell can explain but can't provide a link to < 1326166414 366913 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you've read LYAH and RWH and wonder what's next < 1326166419 639067 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's hard to even discover what you should read < 1326166444 199286 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only way i know is to hang around #haskell and try to understand anything anyone says < 1326166451 717410 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and read articles / papers that way < 1326166486 287764 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you just go looking for "haskell articles" you'll find a) gibberish monad tutorials, and b) research papers which are irrelevant to 99% of real haskell code people write < 1326166502 68801 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let ll = [[[1,2],[6],[2,4,-4,1,-5,3],[-2,4],[5,4,6,3],[-2,-6,4]],[[-2,3],[4,-5,2],[-5,4,-1,4,-6,-1],[-2,0,3],[1,-6,-4,1,4,-5],[-1,1]]] in (zjoin ll, map zjoin ll) < 1326166503 754491 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : ([[1,2],[4,-5,2]],[[1],[-2,-5]]) < 1326166548 509922 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :similarly how do you discover which of the 3,700 packages on Hackage are worth a damn < 1326166601 342235 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let ll = [[[1,2],[6],[2,4,-4,1,-5,3],[-2,4]],[[-2,3],[4,-5,2],[-5,4,-1,4,-6,-1],[-2,0,3]] in (zjoin ll, map zjoin ll) < 1326166602 450822 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : : parse error on input `in' < 1326166614 254810 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let ll = [[[1,2],[6],[2,4,-4,1,-5,3],[-2,4]],[[-2,3],[4,-5,2],[-5,4,-1,4,-6,-1],[-2,0,3]]] in (zjoin ll, map zjoin ll) < 1326166616 35914 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : ([[1,2],[4,-5,2]],[[1],[-2,-5]]) < 1326166726 951087 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-155-225.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Quit: Reconnecting < 1326166727 426458 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let ll = [[[1,2],[]],[[-2,3],[4,-5]]] in (zjoin ll, map zjoin ll) < 1326166729 49663 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : ([[1,2],[4,-5]],[[1],[-2,-5]]) < 1326166742 66112 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-155-225.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1326166791 771209 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think that's close to minimal < 1326166853 520322 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: You sure do like talking about how bad the Haskell community is at teaching people :P < 1326166947 916193 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i still think it's pretty good < 1326166978 80193 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there are some flaws, and I don't see many other people talking about them < 1326166980 533366 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :See, I should write a Haskell book that covers every topic ever. < 1326166988 903607 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then there'd be no problems, because everybody could just point people there. < 1326167004 217841 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :People who point out situations not covered by the book would be summarily executed for heresy. < 1326167047 513453 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly #haskell talks about how #haskell is the #1 best most friendly channel on freenode < 1326167053 45092 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :which might even be true < 1326167179 804084 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've never actually seen that past like 2008. < 1326167196 24514 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders what #haskell was like in the Old Days. < 1326167249 428501 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only part of that example which isn't fixed is zjoin [[1,2],[]] = [1]. if it could be [1,something] instead that would fix that counterexample. < 1326167276 421080 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I can help: it's either [1,1] or [1,2]. < 1326167285 245404 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: That's sort of what I meant by "stuffing the gaps". < 1326167292 452243 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, join [[1],[-2,-5]] == [1,-5] would also work < 1326167299 912006 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where you'd shrink, instead throw in a value you have lying around. < 1326167305 651725 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :> zjoin [[1],[-2,-5]] < 1326167307 411687 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : [1] < 1326167312 744343 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, same kind of thing. < 1326167362 926662 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i'm starting to think there is probably a proof that this cannot work - if only someone had written it down somewhere we could find it. < 1326167382 348083 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But but but but don't give up HOPE! < 1326167387 335603 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hm < 1326167405 225910 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :if we reinsert the 6 < 1326167415 218909 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let ll = [[[1,2],[6]],[[-2,3],[4,-5]]] in (zjoin ll, map zjoin ll) < 1326167416 999760 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : ([[1,2],[4,-5]],[[1],[-2,-5]]) < 1326167438 727050 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it becomes more symmetrical < 1326167535 411981 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION should eat before he reaches *HULK SMASH* level again -> < 1326168152 431049 :Lymee!~moe@ppp-70-251-229-167.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1326168152 627018 :Lymee!~moe@ppp-70-251-229-167.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net QUIT :Changing host < 1326168152 627187 :Lymee!~moe@inportb/loli/cirno-chan JOIN :#esoteric < 1326168175 258336 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@inportb/loli/cirno-chan QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1326168182 412619 :Lymee!~moe@inportb/loli/cirno-chan NICK :Lymia < 1326168672 58660 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh... I forgot how date math works.. < 1326168689 88177 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I take the absolute difference between minute, hour, day, month, year, etc < 1326168698 717230 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :that should work right? < 1326168701 276708 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes I think it should. < 1326168859 225638 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1326168892 218337 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just going to use a datetime thing.. < 1326168894 266813 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: your description is sufficiently ambiguous that i'm not sure if you're terribly wrong or not. < 1326168900 111048 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I'm pretty sure I'm wrong. < 1326168955 944173 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does "work" even mean < 1326168958 399914 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :What are you trying to do < 1326168962 247632 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean i _can_ interpret it in such a way that it gives a meaningful answer. barely. < 1326168995 251427 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: take the difference between two dates? < 1326169015 318357 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: "Difference"? < 1326169018 720650 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1326169028 75892 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"It was sunny today, and rainy this other day, so... 70%." < 1326169042 482643 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :????? < 1326169046 121735 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's weather < 1326169047 222242 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :not dates. < 1326169057 368921 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION facepalm < 1326169079 674237 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait no. it is definitely terribly wrong, because even my charitable interpretation breaks down for leap years. < 1326169093 352810 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Date libraries exist for a reason. < 1326169095 919473 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Time is hard. < 1326169115 254671 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was going to avoid a CPAN dependency but then I remembered that dates are annoying to work with. < 1326169130 850091 :Darth_Cliche!~Klisz@c-67-176-12-54.hsd1.co.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1326169149 221240 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: you are being horribly vague in such a matter that it _looks_ like you're making a horrible train wreck but it's impossible to be sure. < 1326169155 709656 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*such a way < 1326169164 684097 :Darth_Cliche!~Klisz@c-67-176-12-54.hsd1.co.comcast.net NICK :Klisz < 1326169187 563982 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :!perl use DateTime < 1326169188 397919 :EgoBot!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't locate DateTime.pm in @INC (@INC contains: /etc/perl /usr/local/lib/perl/5.10.1 /usr/local/share/perl/5.10.1 /usr/lib/perl5 /usr/share/perl5 /usr/lib/perl/5.10 /usr/share/perl/5.10 /usr/local/lib/site_perl .) at /tmp/input.11100 line 1. \ BEGIN failed--compilation aborted at /tmp/input.11100 line 1. < 1326169189 662719 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: XY problem!! XY problem!! kallisti is never doing the wrong thing. < 1326169204 846570 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :you guys must have missed the part where I decided to use a date library from CPAN < 1326169215 831890 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: actually the problem is he hasn't told us _either_ X or Y properly :D < 1326169222 465414 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: No, I just continued mocking you after that too! :D < 1326169227 620072 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : Cody__: what's the type signature you should expect for findMin? < 1326169227 776629 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : Hold on < 1326169227 932677 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :* nexion has quit (Quit: Leaving) < 1326169227 932861 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :* LeNsTR|off is now known as LeNsTR < 1326169228 135445 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : findMin :: [Ixs] -> [x]. Not very good with typeclasses. < 1326169230 33634 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : findMin :: [x] -> [x]. < 1326169233 590972 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I honestly think people believe #haskell is a Haskell tutorial. < 1326169236 845121 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it's okay to be wrong when finding the correct solution. < 1326169270 56405 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather, when in the process of doing so. < 1326169307 271004 :DCliche!~Klisz@c-67-176-12-54.hsd1.co.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1326169360 368191 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : I honestly think people believe #haskell is a Haskell tutorial. <-- i'm sure some of it's popularity is because it de facto works as one. < 1326169369 728427 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*its < 1326169375 919282 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Yes, unfortunately. < 1326169537 393520 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another problem introduced by Daylight Saving Time is that certain local times just do not exist. For example, in the US in 2003, the transition from standard to saving time occurred on April 6, at the change to 2:00:00 local time. The local clock changes from 01:59:59 (standard time) to 03:00:00 (saving time). This means that there is no 02:00:00 through 02:59:59 on April 6! < 1326169542 398154 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :loooool < 1326169580 771634 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Attempting to create an invalid time currently causes a fatal error. This may change in future version of this module. < 1326169608 70913 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is actually one of the better datetime packages I've seen. < 1326169652 462331 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://search.cpan.org/~drolsky/DateTime-0.72/lib/DateTime/Infinite.pm < 1326169653 262032 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :..... < 1326169931 328253 :Klisz!~Klisz@c-67-176-12-54.hsd1.co.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: SLEEP, GLORIOUS SLEEP < 1326171916 232995 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-155-225.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: BTW, DC updated (on time!) < 1326171966 833522 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanks District of Columbia! < 1326172653 200771 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1326173609 794322 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm type families would be good for defining chess variants, I think. < 1326173629 25975 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :well an associated type family < 1326173634 965458 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :to define the pieces < 1326173953 222617 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :also there's at least one haskell tutorial which actually embeds a chat window for #haskell < 1326173955 337970 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(tryhaskell.org) < 1326173968 808796 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i remember when that hit the Reddit front page < 1326173977 332138 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the channel was full of people who were like < 1326173978 955281 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :WTF IS THIS < 1326173980 680855 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :FAGZ < 1326173982 184922 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :/part < 1326174075 988280 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1326174091 714045 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tryhaskell has an irc client? < 1326174094 906441 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess i never got that far < 1326174102 718066 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1326174108 890781 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it embeds the freenode webchat thingy < 1326174114 711327 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :aw, boring < 1326174115 503189 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :which i guess is javascript / ajax these days < 1326174120 202012 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1326174124 485124 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should have a haskell irc client < 1326174127 214718 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be cooler if it made you write some part of an IRC client in haskell < 1326174130 367524 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1326174130 526260 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1326174132 138058 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :say irc "hi!!" < 1326174139 46319 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :too bad it's not actually running haskell in the browser < 1326174142 327753 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybeGetNextLine irc < 1326174146 601053 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :unlike http://try.ocamlpro.com/ < 1326174172 310311 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Why_Haskell_just_works < 1326174179 840169 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :best article title < 1326174189 62111 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Why_Haskell_is_the_most_amazingly_awesome_thing_ever < 1326174229 242879 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :impress your friends and intimidate your enemies with haskell < 1326174307 798635 :qfr!void@unaffiliated/yw PRIVMSG #esoteric :I gave up on Haskell a long time ago < 1326174327 314448 :qfr!void@unaffiliated/yw PRIVMSG #esoteric :I returned to Ruby/C++/C# :S < 1326174360 773920 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :qfr: my condolences < 1326174436 225342 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :R/Ruby/Racket/REBOL < 1326174444 824759 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :C/C++/COBOL/CommonLisp < 1326174453 677031 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :FORTRAN/Factor/Forth < 1326174501 465398 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :J/Java < 1326174518 639310 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1326174547 380002 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Joy? < 1326174636 632605 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1326174757 589465 :atrapado!~insekt@95.169.240.79 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1326175753 658038 :Klisz!~Klisz@c-67-176-12-54.hsd1.co.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1326175928 693840 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: ...I told you. < 1326175934 271813 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:11. < 1326175940 246473 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is going to suffer now. < 1326175959 58776 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Seriously? < 1326175960 987248 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go back to sleep. < 1326175990 904049 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt it'll work. < 1326176000 141032 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :This one person who's awake is just outside the door, loudly. < 1326176024 665644 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION just outsides the door loudly sometimes too. < 1326176030 460921 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh well, I did disclaim my advice. < 1326176067 596741 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION will see what he can do. < 1326176068 292065 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-155-225.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@time elliott < 1326176069 495552 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Local time for elliott is Tue Jan 10 06:14:14 < 1326176129 97675 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Shhh. < 1326178649 248409 :Klisz!~Klisz@c-67-176-12-54.hsd1.co.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: SLEEP, GLORIOUS SLEEP < 1326184855 251689 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :@hoogle (a -> f b) -> [a] -> f [b] < 1326184856 915131 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prelude mapM :: Monad m => (a -> m b) -> [a] -> m [b] < 1326184857 112842 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Control.Monad mapM :: Monad m => (a -> m b) -> [a] -> m [b] < 1326184857 269319 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Control.Monad forM :: Monad m => [a] -> (a -> m b) -> m [b] < 1326184857 269512 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I know.) < 1326184921 799929 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I found an impressive ravine system in mc. About 10 intersecting ravines. One of them breaching the surface < 1326184933 452477 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :the result was that there was naturally sunlit redstone ore < 1326185062 452578 :qfr!void@unaffiliated/yw PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal you Haskell people are crazy < 1326185069 843181 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :qfr, that was minecraft stuff? < 1326185072 481150 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :not haskell < 1326185083 563493 :qfr!void@unaffiliated/yw PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1326185102 487387 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :qfr, how would that even make sense as haskell!? < 1326185110 593945 :qfr!void@unaffiliated/yw PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was a joke :\ < 1326185114 21613 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1326185137 685124 :qfr!void@unaffiliated/yw PRIVMSG #esoteric :"But did you find any co-ravines?" etc < 1326185150 326530 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-155-225.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Clearly Ravine is an instance of Monad and Num. < 1326185156 140984 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, :D < 1326185180 311466 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :also two mineshaft systems intersecting this < 1326185191 682048 :qfr!void@unaffiliated/yw PRIVMSG #esoteric :Om nom nom shafts < 1326185210 67888 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :also thanks to the technic pack there are TONS of ore here < 1326185312 812379 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :err I just dug away a bit of ore and found yet another ravine just behind it < 1326185508 472119 :cswords_!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1326186090 702784 :Frooxius!~chatzilla@cust-101.ktknet.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1326186172 902527 :_Slereah!~butt@ANantes-259-1-163-147.w90-49.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1326186235 880836 :Slereah!~butt@ANantes-259-1-217-73.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1326186321 417544 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: hello < 1326186687 891136 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: You know, there's a channel for that. < 1326187408 63231 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, oh right < 1326187413 616947 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, anyway it is kind of cool < 1326188405 531215 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Raving ravines. < 1326190201 896547 :myndzi\!myndzi@c-67-168-184-168.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1326190392 240889 :myndzi!myndzi@c-67-168-184-168.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1326191871 735179 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1326192603 521704 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: You're a really calm dude, right? Give me the secrets of the calm, I need them. < 1326192769 550752 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you know, basically they're just your regular mollusks, except they have this hinged shell thing going on. Normally they just kind of sit there and... wait, calm, not clam. Never mind. < 1326192807 832677 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Also your funnies, tell me the secrets of funnise. < 1326192809 929814 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :funnies. < 1326192840 173097 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deliberate misunderstandings are one class of funnies. < 1326192860 254448 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1326192863 64890 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also nondeliberate since you can always just say "I meant to do that". < 1326193060 526132 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the soviet-russia-transformation of noun-subject present-tense-transitive-verb noun-object into noun-object present-tense-transitive-verb noun-subject < 1326193235 230700 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1326193330 463372 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Every time you , god kills another . < 1326193513 406493 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey QUIT :Quit: The Other Game < 1326193677 456638 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : hi < 1326193677 651016 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : anybody know how to call a pointer to function in linux C ? < 1326193680 33435 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :--#haskell < 1326193759 482845 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: how do you call a pointer to function in linux C? you've taught C, you're the expert < 1326193795 551132 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you can't call a pointer; if you want to call the function it points to, p(args) or (*p)(args) < 1326193800 128486 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first is more common, second is clearer < 1326193817 195070 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it doesn't matter whether it's Linux C or any other sort of C, not counting some embedded C-likes that don't have function pointers < 1326193840 791825 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: thanks! < 1326193860 874926 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: now I'm trying to work out if you're being sarcastic or not < 1326193865 99388 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(they apparently couldn't ask in ##c because their nick isn't registered, which is an interesting reason to ask a C question in #haskell...) < 1326193873 973619 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well, it was certainly a very good explanation. < 1326193935 365152 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : blog it in my pm if you don't want it here ;; this is definitely some new sense of the word "blog" of which I was not previously aware < 1326193935 523461 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not as good as a "you can call a pointer anything you want, it's not sentient". < 1326193967 562183 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: heh, indeed < 1326194307 220762 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: wiki spam < 1326194321 277542 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Take me for example. I could support Bachman, Cain, Palin, or Santorum. in no particular order. Others would choose fewer plus Paul., http://brendasongbikinivo.freeforums.org brenda song bikini, >:[[ < 1326195002 865652 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliot is a palin supporter??? < 1326195018 82344 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: elliott's quoting spam, I think < 1326195022 966336 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just without quote marks or an attribution < 1326195027 524710 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I generally do a when I quote spam < 1326195030 27406 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds like plagarism < 1326195064 25049 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imagines super mario kart on a mobius strup with rectangular sections of track which can pivot. i assure you it's boring, but noteable < 1326195272 392163 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: yes i'm a die hard "true"publican < 1326195280 728543 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :like most brits. < 1326195360 853368 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :> return True >>= `when` Just () < 1326195361 845725 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : : parse error on input ``' < 1326195365 162776 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (return True >>=) `when` Just () < 1326195366 164232 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Bool.Bool' < 1326195366 320612 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : against inferred type ... < 1326195368 797065 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (return True >>=) $ `when` Just () < 1326195369 828955 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : : parse error on input ``' < 1326195379 202954 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... yeah, that won't work < 1326197358 426931 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hey, do you know an easy way to make C-j indent to the previous line, rather than using the mode's autoindentation? < 1326197868 259649 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1326198184 608064 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t scanl tail [1,2,3,4] < 1326198185 500156 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Couldn't match expected type `b -> [a]' against inferred type `[a]' < 1326198185 655768 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : In the first argument of `scanl', namely `tail' < 1326198185 655950 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : In the expression: scanl tail [1, 2, 3, 4] < 1326198197 353298 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t scanl < 1326198198 343096 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall a b. (a -> b -> a) -> a -> [b] -> [a] < 1326198202 742834 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :> scanl f z [a,b,c,d] < 1326198203 850837 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : [z,f z a,f (f z a) b,f (f (f z a) b) c,f (f (f (f z a) b) c) d] < 1326198205 603095 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1326198800 438773 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Quit: MSN: Patashu@hotmail.com , Gmail: Patashu0@gmail.com , AIM: Patashu0 , YIM: patashu2 , Skype: patashu0 . < 1326199394 104416 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :@src scanl < 1326199394 420708 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :scanl f q ls = q : case ls of < 1326199394 579481 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : [] -> [] < 1326199394 735742 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : x:xs -> scanl f (f q x) xs < 1326199581 322871 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION keeps forgetting that scanl makes the first item be the 0 thing < 1326199647 438662 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t scanr < 1326199648 391701 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall a b. (a -> b -> b) -> b -> [a] -> [b] < 1326199661 345694 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :> scanr f z [a,b,c,d] < 1326199662 297743 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : [f a (f b (f c (f d z))),f b (f c (f d z)),f c (f d z),f d z,z] < 1326199794 679242 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1326199826 874251 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1326199827 191376 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. < 1326201402 468689 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1326201434 690960 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: the /correct/ way is to write a minor mode that rebinds the key, but I'm not sure if it qualifies as "easy" < 1326201490 493163 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I don't care about the correct way :P < 1326201516 559155 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: well, it's probably easier than the alternatives < 1326201538 542287 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and once you've done it once, it'll work from then onwards (you'd be adding a command that'd be M-x control-j-line-up-mode or whatever) < 1326201573 189447 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are you trying to do, anyway? doing it with different commands altogether might be the really lazy easy solution < 1326201627 352758 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: make C-j indent to the previous line, rather than using the mode's autoindentation < 1326201635 354387 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: no, I mean in more detail < 1326201637 615206 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see why a minor mode matters when I can just rebind the key directly < 1326201638 925044 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, why do you want to do that? < 1326201644 642 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that /is/ what I want to do < 1326201647 626094 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an editor, that's my end goal < 1326201657 36513 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to change what it means for me to push ctrl and then j < 1326201657 352195 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: oh, you mean as a permanent editor setting? < 1326201668 588470 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, only in haskell-mode, but I believe there's a rebind-in-map thing < 1326201674 736870 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least I remember using one once < 1326201693 742764 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you meant you were trying to edit a file where you wanted to change the meaning of C-j for a while as you were doing something unusual indentation-wise < 1326201701 292649 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, let me check, I think I've written similar code for intercal-mode < 1326202059 509042 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: untested: (defun newline-and-indent-relative-maybe () "Insert a newline, then indent like the previous line." (interactive) (newline) (indent-relative-maybe)) (define-key haskell-mode-map "\C-J" 'newline-and-indent-relative-maybe) < 1326202063 730458 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for your .emacs file < 1326202143 945712 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems to require that the haskell code's loaded first, though < 1326202182 755713 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I forget the syntax to do that < 1326202201 249798 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, hmm, I bet you'd put it in the hook for haskell-mode loading < 1326202259 65327 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott? < 1326202270 589662 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your elips, it was too much for him. < 1326202276 166233 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/ps/sp/ < 1326202282 296860 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's lost within Emacs now. < 1326202834 234795 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well < 1326202840 832655 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :he'll probably escape eventually, it isn't TV Tropes < 1326202908 957720 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, we'll just get a final mysterious "it's full of parentheses" transmission. < 1326203204 509194 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :back, sorry < 1326203215 450426 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: thanks! < 1326203268 839645 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :indent-relative-maybe seems to be what you were asking for for lining up, and the newline's there because you wanted a newline first < 1326203310 951678 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I did understand it :P < 1326203399 831317 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders what the emacs function that makes the current line empty if it's just whitespace is < 1326203408 928328 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :most C-j functions seem to call it, and that override seems to disable that feature < 1326203821 993261 :_Slereah!~butt@ANantes-259-1-163-147.w90-49.abo.wanadoo.fr NICK :Slereah < 1326205885 21768 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION reads the C committee and Austin Group yell at each other point-by-point < 1326205890 48879 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, I don't think [this TR] would be especially useful, and I < 1326205890 205633 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't envision it gaining wide acceptance due to the following: < 1326205890 205811 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : awkward names with _s suffix < 1326205890 205970 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Committee Response: < 1326205890 206076 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is less awkward than the posix_ prefix :-) < 1326205905 488902 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Can you imagine the C commitee using a /smiley face/? < 1326205923 585042 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1326205936 536065 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION can't. < 1326205969 234798 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[ < 1326205969 750216 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : people that want to manipulate strings are probably better off using < 1326205969 906740 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : C++ unless they're concerned with speed in time-critical loops in < 1326205970 63023 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : which they don't want to be doing superfluous checks anyway. < 1326205970 63199 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Committee Response: < 1326205970 267201 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :We believe this TR is of interest to those that have a large C Legacy code, and do not have the option or want to change to C++. < 1326205973 179710 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :]] < 1326205982 580340 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION can't tell whether the commitee are just being accommodating, or really do see C as a legacy language. < 1326206002 741684 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: they mean that quite a lot of people have existing C code < 1326206008 876717 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's legacy in that sense < 1326206045 969221 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well, yes, but that's the only objection they offer to "just use C++" < 1326206056 574800 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they only need one objection :) < 1326206064 904644 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fair enough :P < 1326206082 333384 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[ edited out suggestion for additional robustness checking functions, < 1326206082 492218 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :available on request ]] < 1326206082 648761 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Committee Response: < 1326206082 648941 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the author wants to generate a proposal and submit this proposal to WG14, it will be considered. < 1326206085 928982 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ICE BURN < 1326206114 186751 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I wonder where this "generate"-as-author(v.) jargon comes from; the committee are using it a lot here.) < 1326206127 964835 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the "available on request" implies to me that the suggestion was probably pure trolling < 1326206131 293773 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :that reminds me, I need to write that paper for WG14 < 1326206165 322791 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dear WG14, < 1326206166 115667 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Perhaps even an 12ICE 4BURN < 1326206172 229737 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : Please die. < 1326206176 477184 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : Love, < 1326206180 242069 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : Elliott < 1326206188 151260 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: YOU BROKE MY FORMATTING KICK YOUSRELF. < 1326206204 304800 :ChanServ!ChanServ@services. MODE #esoteric +o :fizzie > 1326206204 671186 NAMES :#esoteric < 1326206206 437680 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie KICK #esoteric fizzie :fizzie < 1326206206 598266 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie JOIN :#esoteric < 1326206209 17398 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanks. < 1326206215 817044 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You forgot to -o yourself. < 1326206222 369451 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even if you're kicked, it's the spirit of the thing. < 1326206227 720969 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I think that it was edited out by the Austin group. < 1326206227 880656 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1326206232 98464 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The committee's remarks are in a different font. < 1326206236 247221 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, perhaps < 1326206245 313915 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the Austin Group text is monospaced and indented) < 1326206272 970129 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-12-141.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1326206273 592970 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-12-141.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Changing host < 1326206273 749090 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1326206327 539009 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hmm, ah, it seems like they view the /functions in question/ as primarily useful for legacy code < 1326206332 902389 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it's the _s stuff) < 1326206342 957233 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably, they hope newly-written code doesn't need safeguards like that to ensure safety < 1326206343 935749 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, the _s stuff < 1326206350 91576 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Microsoft have been trying to get them to add that for years < 1326206354 81807 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably decades now, actually < 1326206366 115149 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha, literally everyone is complaining about the "secure" name for them < 1326206380 226082 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the committee keep saying "see previous answer", where they went "you're wrong, but we've changed it anyway to shut you up" < 1326206420 772166 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I guess they succeeded, since gets was replaced by gets_s < 1326206426 542994 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1326206426 702159 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1326206426 858483 :Nisstyre!~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1326206427 719281 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably there are others in the same vein < 1326206435 389387 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: well, removing gets was definitely a good idea < 1326206436 83885 :Frooxius!~chatzilla@cust-101.ktknet.cz QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1326206436 84034 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1326206449 822041 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1326206457 371324 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the "secure" thing was Microsoft propaganda < 1326206469 82619 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to try to persuade people to write their code in a way incompatible with other compilers < 1326206483 269171 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1326206492 6565 :Frooxius!~chatzilla@cust-101.ktknet.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1326206523 102276 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm scared of this "diagnosed undefined behaviour" concept the thing apparently referred to < 1326206534 877113 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wasn't it just _s for 'safe'? < 1326206539 992320 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1326206543 227613 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: the title was blah blah secure blah < 1326206556 272480 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also don't want to know what fopen_s does; adds a "don't read past this many bytes of the filename argument" param? < 1326206564 6275 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: almost certainly < 1326206568 519940 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and knowing Microsoft, the mode argument too < 1326206583 600375 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1326206602 848899 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: oh, that was funnier when I thought fopen used a numeric mode like open(2) < 1326206604 399719 :Nisstyre!~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1326206612 398740 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: It's errno_t fopen_s(FILE** pFile, const char *filename, const char *mode) in Microsoft libs. < 1326206625 698752 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: if, e.g. you think you might have only two bytes of the mode safe for reading, but it's an int argument < 1326206636 318494 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: oh right, the Microsoft versions return errno < 1326206647 809290 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt the committee versions do < 1326206651 993398 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope they don't < 1326206663 171590 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: And it just validates the pointers in case of NULLs, it doesn't have a filename length field. < 1326206669 838063 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, if they have incompatible functions to Microsoft's with the same names, Microsoft will probably get annoyed < 1326206691 381431 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(whereas if that happened with glibc, they'd just add another layer of feature test macros and another few tests in autoconf) < 1326206734 717949 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :.cs is the file extension for C# source code, right? < 1326206741 892416 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: well, it's easy enough to make fopen validate nulls < 1326206746 431289 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: yes < 1326206761 370678 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: N1570: "errno_t fopen_s(FILE * restrict * restrict streamptr, const char * restrict filename, const char * restrict mode);" -- it's very similar. < 1326206772 78051 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1326206846 93755 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: thanks < 1326206856 646254 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: haha, it introduces an errno_t? < 1326206859 156889 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, in theory you could use anything, but .cs seems most common < 1326206866 401652 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: errno_t already existed, I think < 1326206869 495355 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although maybe only in POSIX < 1326206889 622149 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not in C99 < 1326206919 20705 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not in C99; it's explicitly defined to be equivalent to "int" in C11. < 1326206949 55960 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :How useful. < 1326206984 738855 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[ < 1326206992 864274 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :----------------------------------------------- < 1326206993 22564 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :>From Ulrich Drepper < 1326206993 178906 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The proposed safe(r) ISO C library fails to address to issue completely. < 1326206993 179091 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : The problem with the existing interfaces is that the programmer has to < 1326206993 179195 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :put in a lot of additional effort to make sure the program behaves < 1326206993 656837 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :correctly. In many situations a much simpler code, with all kinds of < 1326206995 440364 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :error checking removed, works equally well and therefore is left out. < 1326206997 383162 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is the core of the problem. Code is rather written like < 1326206999 445124 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :[...] < 1326207001 360101 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Proposing to make the life of a programmer even harder is not going to < 1326207003 460523 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :help. But this is exactly what is proposed. [...] < 1326207004 728594 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The rationale in somewhere is that it makes it "semantically" clear that what is returned is an error code. < 1326207005 363982 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Committee Response: < 1326207007 426084 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :This committee is not addressing lazy programmers. < 1326207009 368440 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :]] < 1326207101 907853 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: somehow I think that point might have been made better if it wasn't Drepper trying to make it < 1326207120 381687 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it was fairly well-made, I just snipped out all the irrelevant parts < 1326207128 928152 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, I see < 1326207133 846790 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the actual committee response is < 1326207137 655911 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[ < 1326207138 609409 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :This committee is not addressing lazy programmers. The committee felt the examples given were a little misleading, and believe that < 1326207138 768296 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : char *p = malloc (3 * NAME_LEN); < 1326207138 924716 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : strcpy_s (p, 3 * NAMELEN, name1); // there will be a constraint violation if malloc failed < 1326207138 924898 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : strcat_s (p, 3 * NAMELEN, name2); < 1326207139 86755 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : strcat_s (p, 3 * NAMELEN, name3); < 1326207141 208532 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :will generate a much safer outcome. < 1326207143 234292 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the first example given, if the malloc failed, there would have been < 1326207145 176382 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :undefined behavior, as there would have been if < 1326207147 161518 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :strlen(name1)+strlen(name2)+strlen(name3) > 3*NAMELEN. < 1326207149 105716 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, < 1326207151 166848 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :with this simple substitution for the safer functions, < 1326207153 186808 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no undefined behavior. If malloc failed, at the end of this code < 1326207155 137580 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fragment, p would be NULL, and no undefined actions would have occurred < 1326207157 171857 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(though the implementation defined constraint violation handler would have < 1326207159 273497 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :been executed three times). If the overall length was too long, then p would < 1326207161 276385 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :point to memory that had the first byte set to 0. This memory could be < 1326207163 221186 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :successfully freed later. < 1326207165 150195 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :]] < 1326207167 129068 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is (a) much more reasonable, (b) much less funny < 1326207171 258279 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :cf. ais523 v. Installing Gentoo with 3 commands < 1326207192 885415 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I prefer reasonable to funny < 1326207234 994817 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I was writing some Neverwinter Nights scripting code recently < 1326207245 490888 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the main unusual feature of that language is error values propagating < 1326207268 489051 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, you can pass arbitrary arguments to any of the API functions, and get a return value meaning that something went wrong < 1326207284 83018 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it makes sense for a game; if someone's missing, then it just ends up skipping the bits of the script that apply to them < 1326207290 621445 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I feel a bit weird when I deliberately use that fact < 1326207303 536673 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was a big fight in comp.lang.c on the "library functions should, in addition to testing for NULL, also use some sort of platform-specific functions to check that the pointers point to readable/writable memory" topic. < 1326207333 524071 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The IsBadReadPtr and IsBadWritePtr things mentioned in there.) < 1326207340 36994 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: as in, f(nil) -> nil? < 1326207344 380756 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: yep < 1326207346 452288 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Objective-C has [nil anything] -> nil < 1326207348 928704 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is comparable < 1326207367 60234 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: although instead of nil, it uses 0, "", and OBJECT_INVALID < 1326207370 565278 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I think Icon has similar < 1326207375 512477 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is a bit uglier < 1326207385 558479 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OBJECT_INVALID is fine, but 0 and "" aren't because they're sometimes reasonable return values in their own right < 1326207409 125118 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love Icon because it's one of the only languages where "x < (y | z)" DTRT < 1326207424 259260 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: do you love Perl 6 for the same reason? < 1326207444 664094 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, how is it phrased there? < 1326207479 891166 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's actually exactly the same < 1326207481 475997 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure, though < 1326207513 382951 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION updates Rakudo < 1326207677 351256 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION fails to update Rakudo < 1326207697 613500 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: don't worry, you suceed a few minutes ago < 1326207704 939701 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :just wait for Feather < 1326207715 838504 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*succeed < 1326207740 467812 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to retry from scratch < 1326208101 895028 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: as long as you go back afterwards < 1326208121 823498 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I'm thinking about the irony of Rakudo's configure script being written in Perl 5 < 1326208129 890525 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's perfectly natural, just seems a little out of place < 1326208160 717159 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1326208734 389711 :anders!anders@unaffiliated/anders PART :#esoteric < 1326208744 582443 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1326208748 624266 :ais523_!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1326208970 934779 :Klisz!~Klisz@c-67-176-12-54.hsd1.co.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1326209142 270933 :myndzi\!myndzi@c-67-168-184-168.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1326209208 862446 :ais523_!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 NICK :ais523 < 1326209491 545997 :myndzi!myndzi@c-67-168-184-168.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1326210511 201181 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what does knowing the partial order of a data type do for me? < 1326210629 993378 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :gives you a partial order < 1326210672 537627 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : You must be desperate to know what a father of the groom speech is if you are reading this now. < 1326210704 956192 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1326210707 320754 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am! < 1326210719 871479 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Has he joined Obama in Wonderland where up is down and left is right? What's "fiscally conservative" about voting for every spending measure in sight?" < 1326210720 981551 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's simultaneously right on one level and wrong on a different one < 1326210724 791998 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Our spambots are quite Republican lately. < 1326210728 77786 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is much more interesting than being right on multiple levels < 1326210776 569063 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders where all those quotes are coming from; they seem verbatim, but googling them just turns up more spam. < 1326210953 866391 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably the spam's out-SEOed the original quote < 1326211260 817105 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :up is down black is white and short is long < 1326211332 337689 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :@pl (x y z -> z ++ "|" ++ y ++ "|" ++ z) < 1326211333 61523 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(line 1, column 8): < 1326211333 217788 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :unexpected ">" < 1326211333 217967 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :expecting variable, "(", operator or ")" < 1326211336 426355 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :@pl (\x y z -> z ++ "|" ++ y ++ "|" ++ z) < 1326211337 190647 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :const (ap (++) . (('|' :) .) . (. ('|' :)) . (++)) < 1326211428 61247 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-86-84.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1326211445 317838 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-86-84.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello! < 1326211496 780863 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-86-84.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I managed to mention esoteric programming languages in my General Studies exam < 1326211519 746716 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: that's cheating, you can mention /anything/ in a General Studies exam and not lose a significantly significant number of marks < 1326211537 657135 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-86-84.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's my first A-level exam < 1326211544 482574 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, not /really/ < 1326211554 530381 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-86-84.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Got Maths exam on Friday, should I continue the pattern? < 1326211556 594716 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :General Studies doesn't count, apart from being embarrassing if you fail it < 1326211566 872720 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: if you reasonably can, I guess < 1326211577 810586 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should be harder to slip into Maths than General Studies without looking out of place, though < 1326211581 533011 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: right so < 1326211582 289306 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wrote my high school English diploma examination on Order of the Stick < 1326211587 252140 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does having a partial order do for you? < 1326211588 656274 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, is Maths still Module-based? < 1326211593 494087 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-86-84.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :One of my friends managed to mention Star Wars in every single GCSE exam < 1326211595 238914 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-86-84.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yes < 1326211598 320439 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :aside from giving you a nice Ord instance. :P < 1326211617 554488 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-86-84.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, he, nice < 1326211688 151140 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmmm lentils < 1326211698 808192 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it as kind of a lame essay though < 1326211701 666536 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I didn't have focus < 1326211709 881975 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well, my essay-writing days are mostly over < 1326211727 206350 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and I can still write pages about rules ;) ) < 1326212621 955276 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric : One of my friends managed to mention Star Wars in every single GCSE exam < 1326212637 88876 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, he must have a lot of time on his hands. < 1326212637 246554 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-86-84.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That he sat, of course < 1326212649 572405 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-86-84.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :He didn't mention it in the ones he didn't sit < 1326212692 155499 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, one of my folio pieces for Higher English was "Comic Sans: a Sad Indictment of Our Times". < 1326212808 628381 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Success(-ish)! < 1326212909 217639 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION → goddamn STEP preparation. < 1326213430 938306 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Ish! The best kind. < 1326214096 26326 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I think I'll just let you take over. < 1326214134 275433 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I apologise for bringing up Char8 :( < 1326214162 715643 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: You can make up for it by accusing nexion of being racist, like a certain member of #haskell would. < 1326214206 900041 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :...what? < 1326214236 702481 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: People who say they "don't need Unicode" are usually under the influence of some rather heavy cultural bias. < 1326214245 253930 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: You'd think Haskell users would appreciate the value of using types that say what you mean. < 1326214298 350332 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Almost every programming language which has keywords has those keywords in English < 1326214299 340862 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1326214304 141631 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Standard library names, etc. < 1326214320 827274 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Maybe you shouldn't try and comment on discussions you only see the behind-the-back commentary on? < 1326214322 98965 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: You'd be surprised! < 1326214333 937213 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :God dammit mm_freak! < 1326214354 201665 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Hey, if this was SO, I would be getting rep for my pain. < 1326214361 424691 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION isn't getting rep for his pain. < 1326214373 41456 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I am present in #haskell , my comment was somewhat tangential, I guess. < 1326214391 349729 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I'm just plain not sure what the relevance is, then. < 1326214452 281768 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That there does seem to be heavy cultural bias in ... programming. Although not in such a way that it affects end-users the way a failure to do text right does. < 1326214478 322740 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Sure you are, elliott++ < 1326214500 382020 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yessss < 1326214529 381317 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, wait, why am I arguing with mauke, I distinctly remember him being an ASCII-pushing traditionalist. < 1326214536 139505 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has little encyclopedia entries for everybody in his head. < 1326214536 613960 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :19:54 < nexion> Sgeo, yeah, I use that for the Unicode sections of the stream < 1326214547 828812 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :All negative, who needs to remember good things about people. < 1326214559 499822 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's good to hear that the stream has "Unicode sections". < 1326214582 658566 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But of course the rest of it is ASCII. < 1326214586 949195 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably, the word POST or GET or whatever never contains non-ASCII characters, is his point? < 1326214587 628727 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: They only need ASCII! < 1326214622 875735 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: "heavily optimised" < 1326214631 502335 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I saw a blog post with #s in it once. < 1326214637 974655 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's heavily optimised enough for me, tyvm. < 1326214642 698641 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wrote a program wih #s in it once. < 1326214648 689252 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :> ord '#' < 1326214649 689211 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : 35 < 1326214659 608122 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: (Is Text not actually fast?) < 1326214663 419638 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, the structure sucks, but. < 1326214678 745480 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not nearly as fast as ByteString when you're processing ASCII in certain cases. < 1326214686 32938 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least, when I last tried it. < 1326214699 399849 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Well, who gives a shit; ideological purity trumps all. < 1326214707 973963 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure. < 1326214716 156489 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :...In some cases. < 1326214732 83026 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like "why can't I pattern-match ByteStrings?". < 1326214745 931801 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's 08:58, by the way. < 1326214758 398775 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : I don't care how "heavily optimised" Text is; it's got stupidity built in < 1326214761 808416 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Use view patterns and uncons < 1326214762 960201 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if the "stupidity" is Unicode. < 1326214765 930852 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-86-84.as13285.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1326214787 506324 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-86-84.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1326214795 259740 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow I'm somehow still connected < 1326214798 452255 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is strange < 1326214807 766712 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :since the computer suspended to disk < 1326214833 197750 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Not when it's O(n/k)! < 1326214854 878907 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I didn't notice the power cable had been disconnected and I wasn't using the laptop at the time, I only noticed when I heard the "burp" from the dvd drive that it makes while suspending to disk) < 1326214859 558005 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: What's multiplication, man. < 1326214889 392074 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"View patterns an unicorns" sounded exciting. < 1326214892 675441 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then it was just uncons. < 1326214903 636125 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Hey, I want a type to represent a vector of length 7. < 1326214909 472124 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define unicorns uncons < 1326214910 464941 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go wild < 1326214912 210389 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t uncons < 1326214913 163644 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not in scope: `uncons' < 1326214913 641400 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But access to it has to be O(1), not O(7). < 1326214915 742819 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do I do? < 1326214919 821083 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :?hoogle uncons < 1326214920 296415 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Data.ByteString.Char8 uncons :: ByteString -> Maybe (Char, ByteString) < 1326214920 452924 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Data.ByteString.Lazy.Char8 uncons :: ByteString -> Maybe (Char, ByteString) < 1326214920 453123 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Data.ByteString uncons :: ByteString -> Maybe (Word8, ByteString) < 1326214930 805674 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: just divide O by 7 < 1326214936 636089 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :?hoogle snoc < 1326214936 792411 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: newtype Vec a = Vec (a,a,a,a,a,a,a) < 1326214936 953494 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Data.ByteString.Char8 snoc :: ByteString -> Char -> ByteString < 1326214937 109800 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Data.ByteString.Lazy.Char8 snoc :: ByteString -> Char -> ByteString < 1326214937 109983 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Data.ByteString snoc :: ByteString -> Word8 -> ByteString < 1326214942 114004 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: There's only one field, so it must be O(1). < 1326214958 999401 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :O(7) lol < 1326214959 793986 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also I want this to work for any value of 7. < 1326214972 62000 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: But if he wants O(1) access to all the elements, he needs 7 fields, so it's O(7) for the whole thing again. < 1326214980 865172 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Trade-offs. < 1326214984 398015 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant has a point. < 1326214993 150126 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can view-patterns be used to hide an equality check? < 1326215002 425182 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :As a pattern match < 1326215004 497337 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I was going to say something. < 1326215022 127059 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: The point is that writing the ByteString that represents the ASCII "POST" is awkward. < 1326215037 477807 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : elliott: But if he wants O(1) access to all the elements, he needs 7 fields, so it's O(7) for the whole thing again. <-- couldn't you work with several at once? < 1326215038 693549 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :f ((==blah) -> True) = whatever < 1326215051 483433 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: To make up for my long spiel about monads, I wrote a long spiel about applicatives. < 1326215052 912555 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: f blah | isAscii "POST" blah = ... < 1326215062 43008 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Most people don't have 7-core processors < 1326215079 866807 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, indeed, I have 8 core (including the hyper threading) < 1326215083 477579 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf, I'm not going for decency here < 1326215087 326748 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Why don't you write a long spiel about jQuery? < 1326215089 429185 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going for abuse of view patterns < 1326215091 720350 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: You're bourgeois. < 1326215096 478936 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, heh < 1326215106 618165 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: A 7-core processor is just an 8-core prosessor with one snuffed core. < 1326215119 153706 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: What is there to say? It is art; it is perfection. It's the alpha and the qoppa. < 1326215120 828164 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, anyway, what about stuffing multiple values into a single SSE or AVX register < 1326215122 487365 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would my pattern work? < 1326215124 236771 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :jQuery is. < 1326215127 925290 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :or even into a normal machine word < 1326215139 117194 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: You have to stuff all 7 of them < 1326215139 751598 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I thought it was a monad. < 1326215141 61002 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :So O(7) again. < 1326215149 239150 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: It's an ArrowApply. < 1326215156 470695 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, how large is each? And once you stuffed them like that you could keep them like that surely < 1326215171 593179 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can load an entire SSE register with one instruction anyway < 1326215175 338003 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(same for writing it out) < 1326215198 22088 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't AMD Phenom X3 just those samples of Phenom X4 where one of the cores failed the tests? < 1326215204 337570 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe so < 1326215204 984337 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I enjoy how this web page has a commutative diagram on it: http://www.windley.com/archives/2009/01/jquery_monads_and_functional_programming.shtml < 1326215243 773126 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: The T^2 represents elements on the page. < 1326215249 287140 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: The \mu is jQuery. < 1326215253 282165 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I have like the best i7 you can get without intel calling it extreme or whatever they do to those supposed to be more stable for overclocking. < 1326215253 782464 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Ooh, more! Of a slightly different variety: http://weblogs.asp.net/bleroy/archive/2010/06/29/how-i-understood-monads-part-2-2-have-we-met-before.aspx < 1326215258 782721 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: T_\eta is the CSS selector you're using. < 1326215283 481507 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Oh yeah, C#4’s dynamic is a monad < 1326215283 639743 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanks to the new dynamic keyword in C#4, it is now possible to ask the C# compiler to relax compile-time type checking and instead resolve the members of some objects at runtime. < 1326215283 796324 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here’s a somewhat trivial example: < 1326215283 796434 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :dynamic foo = new { < 1326215283 796480 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : bar = "baz" < 1326215285 546655 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :}; < 1326215287 572142 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Console.WriteLine(foo.bar);" < 1326215289 515690 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Very monadic! < 1326215302 516904 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The wrapping is magic and the binding is baked into the semantics of the language. < 1326215311 657206 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, if they still do that, I don't remember < 1326215316 323290 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, (it is a sandy bridge) < 1326215316 479693 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Also, I see no diagrams on that second one. < 1326215324 667575 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: It's true. I meant "more suffering". < 1326215337 286905 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: IIRC the "Extreme Edition" chips do also have some bumped-up specs in addition to overclockability. < 1326215345 117190 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly < 1326215357 411220 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I'm glad that guy acknowledges Microsoft are evil. < 1326215359 318035 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, mine is a normal edition sandy bridge i7 at 3.4 GHz < 1326215365 734757 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :In his blog title. < 1326215369 225196 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, which is pretty extreme anyway < 1326215373 348290 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Along with an evil-looking pumpkin. < 1326215376 682437 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think he has Microsoft issues. < 1326215389 150760 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I think for Sandy Bridge they just went with a "K" or "X" suffix in the model number for the "extreme" ones. < 1326215398 837047 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah possibly < 1326215415 921069 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Heyy, cheater isn't here, I can complain about him wasting space in #haskell with impunity! Well, relative impunity. < 1326215442 355441 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just wait until #-blah hears that quote! < 1326215455 600738 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I believe one of the labs at university have those. < 1326215455 778754 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Don't. < 1326215468 336154 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Don't worry, I'm leaving anyway. < 1326215468 926190 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, it also have pretty old nvidia quadro cards for some reasons. < 1326215471 216776 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :reason* < 1326215480 535928 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Do you remember when cheater tried to get me banned from #haskell because I pointed him to LYAH? < 1326215486 223437 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1326215488 715027 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was fun. < 1326215511 109430 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : cheater, he took an arrow in the knee < 1326215511 303293 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : heh. < 1326215518 896733 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Is there a cure for crying. < 1326215535 524864 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Apparently the i7-2600K in fact only differs from the i7-2600 in that it has some unlocked overclocking settings; plus it *doesn't* do some things. (TXT, the trusted execution thing; VT-d, the IO virtualization thing; and vPro, the remote management thing.) < 1326215544 721402 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Yes: Conveniently, the cure is crying. < 1326215549 57143 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, anti-onion. < 1326215561 700787 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Sounds explosive. < 1326215576 482828 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Anyway, they seem to have gotten a Core i7-3930K/-3960X six-physical-cores models out now, too. < 1326215577 592904 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, with tears. < 1326215579 616918 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only good arrow to the knee joke I seen so far was from a LP of skyrim where some NPC placement bugged out and, as the player said: "took a stair to the knee" < 1326215589 176313 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Anti-onion Router, also known as "tar". < 1326215597 650751 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, heh < 1326215600 785157 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you know /bin/tar sends everything you do to the NSA immediately? < 1326215606 264507 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only GNU tar. < 1326215609 568611 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I'm pretty sure those weren't around when I bought mine < 1326215637 714222 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, why not VT-d? < 1326215641 625063 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, that makes no sense < 1326215642 291136 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1326215666 861469 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I believe the one I have does VT-d but my mobo doesn't or something like that < 1326215907 889433 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Probably they've figured out there's not much overlap between overclockers and people who need "enterprise" features. Though I've never quite figured out the "let's disable features" decisions. < 1326215988 449273 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's like the Pokemon versions. < 1326215993 422 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gotta buy them both to have all the feechurez. < 1326216003 136062 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1326216141 948538 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I wonder if there are extreme edition xenons? < 1326216147 383746 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably not < 1326216158 881783 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway I would quite like to use VT-d < 1326216201 638175 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly < 1326216206 838663 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure what the point would be < 1326216232 327948 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be nice if you could use this for the GPU or such to do fast 3D in qemu < 1326216251 259553 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds unlikely to work though < 1326216264 473745 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and would not work at all with windowed mode < 1326216401 52025 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, what do IBM actually /do/ these days? < 1326216415 548323 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't actually think of anything I associate with them. < 1326216416 23411 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-86-84.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Chips < 1326216429 481639 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not any chips I've heard of, at least. < 1326216464 524120 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-86-84.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :They do the CPU for Wii's < 1326216500 691907 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-86-84.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And XBox 360's < 1326216519 418956 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and main frames < 1326216525 667769 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Main frames. < 1326216528 496018 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1326216539 829051 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-86-84.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :They co-designed the PS3 CPU < 1326216573 139524 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, main frames. < 1326216590 211373 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, yes. They are still made < 1326216621 198312 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Main... frames. < 1326216633 917546 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, as opposed to minicomputers < 1326216656 795467 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Mainframes, CPUs. < 1326216665 253619 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Supercomputers. < 1326216670 437008 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yes, that too < 1326216670 987399 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bad software. < 1326216680 235653 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Research. < 1326216705 646336 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-86-84.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :AIs on quiz shows < 1326216710 638219 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :IBM, a bad software company. < 1326216713 63905 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd, snap you just beat me to that < 1326216725 650278 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Makers of the finest bad software. < 1326216753 814765 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Virtually all console gaming systems of the latest generation use microprocessors developed by IBM. The Xbox 360 contains a PowerPC tri-core processor, which was designed and produced by IBM in less than 24 months.[56] Sony's PlayStation 3 features the Cell BE microprocessor designed jointly by IBM, Toshiba, and Sony." < 1326216755 44481 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh < 1326216758 114947 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtually all? < 1326216761 217072 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 out of 3? < 1326216772 744674 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Wii uses an IBM chip too. < 1326216782 998858 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right, says so much further down < 1326216787 542101 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :so all then < 1326216792 415695 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :not just virtually all < 1326216838 906391 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Broadway is the codename of the 32-bit Central Processing Unit (CPU) used in Nintendo's Wii video game console. It was designed by IBM, and is currently being produced using a 90 nm SOI process." <-- 90 nm. Wow that is quite a way behind PC CPUs < 1326216892 865191 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'd almost think the technology was six years old or something. < 1326216911 818326 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, hm weren't Intel at like 60 nm around then? < 1326216916 241397 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/PC CPUs/x86/ < 1326216919 582875 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well yes < 1326216925 86777 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Intel and AMD x86, even. < 1326216930 81873 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1326216931 752081 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The 90 nm process refers to the level of CMOS process technology that was reached in the 2002–2003 timeframe, by most leading semiconductor companies, like Intel, AMD, Infineon, Texas Instruments, IBM, and TSMC." < 1326216935 866919 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-86-84.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Game Cube used IBM chips < 1326216945 586973 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :65 nm — 2006 < 1326216949 919544 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, Intel and AMD stands for virtually all consumer x86 CPUs used in desktops and laptops though < 1326216953 773175 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :2011-6 = 2005. < 1326216955 240571 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :So not really. < 1326216965 733851 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-86-84.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, what year is it? < 1326216969 358721 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, hm okay < 1326216982 377482 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-86-84.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nevermind < 1326216990 614195 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd, 2012? < 1326216997 973736 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-86-84.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :My god. < 1326217000 332590 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl < 1326217031 643730 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jan 2012. < 1326217044 75039 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not not-2011 for a while now. < 1326217046 694160 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Wii was released in late 2006, but since they obviously couldn't use state-of-the art chips at the time of release, I think it's fair to say the underlying technology is all early- to mid-2006 at the latest. < 1326217079 950732 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nintendo are really impressively durable with their platforms. < 1326217092 883272 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least compared to today's cycles. < 1326217118 608509 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, come on, how old is the PS3? And the xbox 360? < 1326217136 851498 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know the first thing about either? < 1326217144 694210 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, that they are better than wii? < 1326217150 266720 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1326217164 386390 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: because they have a better CPU, right? < 1326217165 908571 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are about ten different models of each, which subdivide into about three or four generations of hardware. < 1326217183 664483 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, better hardware at least, not sure if it is the CPU or the GPU (if they even have separate GPUs?) < 1326217199 680556 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, hm. Right. < 1326217215 904836 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: And Sony aren't exactly announcing the next generation of the PlayStation to be PS3+0.5, like Nintendo have with the Wii U. < 1326217244 694923 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-86-84.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah yes, that reminds me. < 1326217260 939559 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-86-84.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to correct the genetive of "nemo" from "nullius" to "neminis" < 1326217278 865757 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I have no comment. < 1326217325 748445 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe the PS4 and whatever the next xbox will be called are supposed to be showed at some expo later this year. Not sure if that is confirmed or just rumors. < 1326217329 443650 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, surely even /you/ understand budgeting. < 1326217330 699183 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :rumours* < 1326217344 657101 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, yes? What about it? < 1326217359 975642 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, you mean the separate GPU thingy? < 1326217423 779500 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-86-84.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bye < 1326217427 63560 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-86-84.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Goodbye < 1326217433 283572 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I need to leave as well. Cya. < 1326217445 41139 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION notes that according to WP a low-end XBox is actually cheaper than a Wii at launch price. < 1326217493 280278 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Those were introduced later, though. < 1326217505 937162 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably due to market pressures the Wii placed upon consoles. < 1326217534 294646 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And indeed a Wii is cheaper at current prices. < 1326217572 31786 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: That's not surprising; at the end of its cycle Nintendo hardware can be bought for about 3 pennies and a piece of fluff. < 1326217599 76346 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I presume you have done this regularly. < 1326217607 810625 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: You know not the true face of England. < 1326217627 372207 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which makes it all the more amazing that you haven't played any SSB games despite them being the best. < 1326217805 252678 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Also the true face of England. < 1326217814 617895 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION doesn't even own a Wii. < 1326217827 477954 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tut tut tut? < 1326217830 230858 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pirate one. < 1326217847 980711 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1326217879 803653 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: The solution is clear: a Hexham-Helsinki SSB battle???? For friendship diplomacy. I will supply the friendship, < 1326217902 836746 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. < 1326217905 142362 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which SSB. < 1326217945 226765 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: All... of them... simultaneously? < 1326217951 256483 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Controlled by the same controller. < 1326217960 34621 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Polyglot gaming. < 1326217971 226092 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think you can use an N64 controller with a Wii but wait < 1326217983 306703 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: There's a "classic" controller for the Wii < 1326217986 797398 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just a matter of software. < 1326217996 716588 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know this. < 1326218003 640915 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :EXCUSE ME IM WII EXPERT < 1326218011 549240 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Oh my god polyglot gaming of two unrelated games would be the most amazing thing ever. < 1326218013 610409 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a new life goal. < 1326218109 410402 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, unrelated games hasn't been done as far as I'm aware < 1326218132 187899 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: What has been done by implication? < 1326218137 578830 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some set of Mega Mans, Mega Man Xs, Final Fantasies, and Marios has been done, at least < 1326218143 980276 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neat < 1326218144 836348 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Those are the ones I recall having seen) < 1326218157 204323 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :And this is TAS, not sure if that counts < 1326218164 149997 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :In realtime? < 1326218165 817529 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1326218169 42652 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that makes it "easier". :p < 1326218207 436469 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Evidently TASVideos has a category for it: http://tasvideos.org/Movies-C2020Y.html < 1326218214 665656 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :And there's no others than the ones I remembered < 1326218411 272935 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remembered the Mega Man and the Mario ones, but not that Final Fantasy set. < 1326218469 44504 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Didn't some dude play Mega Man X and X2 in realtime? < 1326218489 659106 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe I'm just recalling that TAS thing. < 1326218503 582120 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't recall any non-TAS. < 1326218546 561045 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't find one, so maybe it was just the TAS. < 1326218558 728738 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, there was that "Mario 64 with feet", you never know what people do. < 1326218616 157050 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: that TAS has been improved since < 1326218622 387741 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :X1, X2, X3 300% < 1326218635 442144 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there have been other multigame runs; most are worse than the original, that one's better though < 1326218660 854139 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I can see that. I probably just saw the X1/X2 one. < 1326218667 682478 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also "300%" sounds silly. < 1326218675 772181 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, 100% * 3 < 1326218752 504469 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: you must hate cpu metres < 1326218762 2769 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :~GOODE NIGHTE FRENS~ < 1326218824 761609 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not all CPU metres use 100% = one CPU < 1326218859 983958 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or whatever the unit should be called, 100% = one relatively traditional single-threaded core < 1326219018 849995 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1326220901 41988 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aw, "List of lists" just goes to Portal:Contents/Lists. I was hoping it would be called that. < 1326220926 173621 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least there's the "List of lists of lists". < 1326221530 61089 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1326221981 537287 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1326221992 533938 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Max SendQ exceeded < 1326222050 590271 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1326222081 989742 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : I don't think you can use an N64 controller with a Wii but wait <-- you could rig up some levers or such to control several physical controllers at once? < 1326222086 552614 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :or one in each hand? < 1326222280 87899 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I was wondering if Nintendo offered the original Super Smash Bros. on their internet service. < 1326222311 542469 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aha, it is. < 1326222338 571434 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you could play all three SSB games at once on a Wii, at least. < 1326222373 56701 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yes, indeed, you can use a GameCube controller for all three. < 1326222419 210235 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, I was suggested an alternative solution < 1326222440 135491 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is an inferior solution. < 1326222448 24594 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, well yes < 1326222476 177833 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1326222755 815224 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can emulate it of course < 1326222985 462180 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-86-84.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1326223241 78565 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1326223265 730000 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-86-84.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello < 1326223421 421668 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1326223469 124390 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no TOPIC #esoteric :The Return of the JIT | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ < 1326224125 955771 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org TOPIC #esoteric :The Return of the JITchards | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ < 1326224152 267174 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's a JITchard < 1326224172 357839 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it a richard with a speech impediment < 1326224199 933043 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :JITchards < 1326224209 532820 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the JIT I wrote for IOCCC < 1326224213 700907 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1326224257 730141 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-86-84.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :How did that go? < 1326224286 684186 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :JITchards, by Jegoj < 1326224403 883313 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t op < 1326224404 740010 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall o n. (Newtype n o) => (o -> n) -> n -> o < 1326224421 199144 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t rop < 1326224422 32996 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not in scope: `rop' < 1326224424 810165 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t opr < 1326224425 876964 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not in scope: `opr' < 1326224446 422704 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :op? < 1326224464 118470 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@hoogle op < 1326224464 753955 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :System.IO openBinaryFile :: FilePath -> IOMode -> IO Handle < 1326224464 910370 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :GHC.IO.Handle.FD openBinaryFile :: FilePath -> IOMode -> IO Handle < 1326224464 910564 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :System.IO openBinaryTempFile :: FilePath -> String -> IO (FilePath, Handle) < 1326224494 446514 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :something like that from simplereflect < 1326224510 586818 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :which hoogle doesn't cover afaik < 1326224691 850043 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's op, apparently < 1326224870 148298 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t Debug.SimpleReflect.op < 1326224871 263752 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Couldn't find qualified module. < 1326224877 267850 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t fun < 1326224878 333601 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall a. (SimpleReflect.FromExpr a) => String -> a < 1326224882 200144 :Klisz!~Klisz@c-67-176-12-54.hsd1.co.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: SLEEP, GLORIOUS SLEEP < 1326224886 368540 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t SimpleReflect.op < 1326224887 361548 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not in scope: `SimpleReflect.op' < 1326224914 380031 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1326224953 869533 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of lambdabot's great mysteries: how to qualify a given module identifier, if it's even possible. < 1326224957 849025 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t expr < 1326224958 801774 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Expr -> Expr < 1326224978 527387 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t f < 1326224979 480633 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall a. (SimpleReflect.FromExpr a) => a < 1326225016 157261 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric ::k (SimpleReflect.FromExpr a) => a < 1326225017 109258 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Not in scope: type constructor or class `SimpleReflect.FromExpr' < 1326225024 367884 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric ::k (FromExpr a) => a < 1326225025 412002 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Not in scope: type constructor or class `FromExpr' < 1326225064 663509 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t f == "a" < 1326225065 614858 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : No instance for (SimpleReflect.FromExpr [Char]) < 1326225065 771325 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : arising from a use of `f' at :1:0 < 1326225065 771522 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Possible fix: < 1326225180 632694 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah it's lambdabot's show package, not all simplereflect. < 1326225864 691933 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-15-115.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1326225928 378681 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-99-86-84.as13285.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1326225936 345593 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1326226109 643607 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-15-115.as13285.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1326226482 578093 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-155-225.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1326226485 775996 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-218-197.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1326227022 702886 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1326227127 903075 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh my god why are ice cream waffles so good. < 1326227158 336751 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not that ice cream waffles are so good, it's that everything else is so bad. < 1326227180 530081 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ice cream waffles are the clue left to us by God, indicating that things are so much worse than they could be. < 1326227215 700319 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1326227223 600855 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :no I'm pretty sure ice cream waffles are just really good. < 1326227230 942374 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :like... it's like having a waffle cone < 1326227239 791897 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but warm and more like an actual waffle < 1326227241 159518 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it is < 1326227243 988809 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : aside from giving you a nice Ord instance. :P <-- Ord instances are supposed to be _total_ orders (ignoring bottom/nontermination) < 1326227250 100239 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ah okay. < 1326227264 878772 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :who makes a bottom/nontermination Ord instance < 1326227283 752259 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION swats monqy -----### < 1326227289 587546 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :lists? < 1326227297 141542 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well of course. < 1326227298 889467 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: I wouldn't know. I've nevre had an ice cream waffle. < 1326227312 447732 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :[1..] <= [1..] has no chance of terminating. < 1326227318 362257 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: if you instead elect to use _|_ to mean false < 1326227320 338745 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::'( < 1326227321 73139 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :and True to mean True < 1326227340 431720 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you can define _|_ to not equal anything. < 1326227342 152344 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric ::> < 1326227350 331555 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::'( :'( :'( < 1326227539 880431 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dafuq is an ice cream waffle? < 1326227563 53175 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you're just talking about waffles with ice cream. < 1326227644 465413 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am < 1326227645 935035 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :like < 1326227648 46980 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :waffles < 1326227649 106972 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :then < 1326227651 956430 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :put ice cream on them. < 1326227654 287892 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ice cream waffle < 1326227662 836867 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, can't a partial order be said to be a total order ignoring bottom? < 1326227668 109426 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I guess circular stuff < 1326227706 398276 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Logically an ice cream waffle should be a waffle made of ice cream < 1326227707 620846 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: no, you can have x <= y and y <= x both being False < 1326227709 935014 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except that that is nonsense. < 1326227712 529480 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :no bottom involved < 1326227768 127620 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :partial orders have no circularity, they still have transitivity. < 1326228073 289726 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1326228269 948991 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-218-197.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1326228272 837549 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-236-8.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1326228595 229686 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-144-211.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1326228602 820341 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-236-8.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1326230086 518747 :Klisz!~Klisz@c-67-176-12-54.hsd1.co.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1326230136 470513 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :How have I not watched all the French and Saunders clips on YouTube by now. < 1326230443 742204 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-152.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1326230491 460055 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-144-211.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1326231173 781771 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1326232104 80700 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :" Sgeo: no, you can have x <= y and y <= x both being False" this is weird. < 1326232153 458768 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :never heard of a partial order? < 1326232187 493479 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not before today < 1326232202 883172 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :im on the wiki page now < 1326232209 470964 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-131.opaltelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1326232224 873679 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Partial ordering is the best kinds of ordering. < 1326232233 535477 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Other than well-ordering. < 1326232237 458151 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And a semilattice. < 1326232252 126564 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-131.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello < 1326232293 336489 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm rather partial to it myself < 1326232383 624931 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: a good example is set inclusion. neither of {1,2} and {1,3} is contained in the other. < 1326232398 383817 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf, what about pizza ordering? < 1326232413 649702 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: That's just lazy. < 1326232432 410070 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go to the pizzeria yourself if you want pizza so much. < 1326232438 162310 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cowabunga < 1326232491 228426 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :american adaptions of italian food described by anthropomorphic turtles using surfer terminology < 1326232500 367418 :Zuu!zuu@unaffiliated/zuu QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1326232528 488848 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a japanese animated adaption of an american comic < 1326232562 226009 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the world truly is beautiful < 1326232608 380613 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@google is the world beautiful < 1326232609 452304 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.theworldisbeautiful.com/ < 1326232609 608622 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Title: the world is beautiful < 1326232620 61574 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hotels and restaurants that match your preferences:Luxurious and Relaxing Hotels in Buenos Aires < 1326232632 81591 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Truly. < 1326232693 431556 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-131.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Goodnight < 1326232695 613647 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-71-131.opaltelecom.net QUIT :Quit: Goodbye < 1326233004 435624 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have pondered about the mysteries of order before < 1326233030 768842 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :mysteries? < 1326233033 111183 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but without breaking any ground < 1326233052 911741 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh.. now i suppose i have to try to remember < 1326233222 843320 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I was a kid, I used to ponder stuff about infinities and alternate number lines and numbers defined such that its absolute value < 0 < 1326233333 219760 :Patashu!Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1326233395 835362 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1326233570 454319 :Zuu!zuu@77.215.149.86 JOIN :#esoteric < 1326233570 955128 :Zuu!zuu@77.215.149.86 QUIT :Changing host < 1326233571 111353 :Zuu!zuu@unaffiliated/zuu JOIN :#esoteric < 1326233826 29989 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION → sleep < 1326233827 180394 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1326235080 900052 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 JOIN :#esoteric < 1326235132 243488 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`searchlog itidus list < 1326235174 120363 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1326235218 602722 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-225-142.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1326235224 566039 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-214-152.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1326235610 825700 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :about order, i recall once not so long ago trying to figure out something wrong with my conception of lists.. but i cant remember exactly what my thought was < 1326235651 877191 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :something about the [first] [??] [??] [last] < 1326235799 72482 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that doesn't look obviously wrong so far :P < 1326235900 701023 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :@src first < 1326235901 294945 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Source not found. Sorry about this, I know it's a bit silly. < 1326235908 983784 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: Arrow method < 1326235911 521786 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@src Arrow < 1326235912 155225 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :class Arrow a where < 1326235912 311593 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : arr, pure :: (b -> c) -> a b c < 1326235912 311799 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : (>>>) :: a b c -> a c d -> a b d < 1326235912 311842 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : first :: a b c -> a (b,d) (c,d) < 1326235912 311885 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : second :: a b c -> a (d,b) (d,c) < 1326235913 986073 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : (***) :: a b c -> a b' c' -> a (b,b') (c,c') < 1326235916 52174 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : (&&&) :: a b c -> a b c' -> a b (c,c') < 1326235928 846774 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@src first (->) < 1326235929 321395 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Source not found. BOB says: You seem to have forgotten your passwd, enter another! < 1326235935 64953 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@src (->) first < 1326235935 381282 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :first f = f *** id < 1326235941 712302 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it not defined in terms of -- ah yes < 1326235943 113442 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@src (->) (***) < 1326235943 589685 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(f *** g) ~(x,y) = (f x, g y) < 1326235971 431580 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1326235996 841681 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :*** is like two processes in parallel. < 1326236049 413710 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically it produces a function on the product of the two argument types of its operand functions. < 1326236053 951691 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well parallel dataflow. i'm sure the Kleiski instance does one of them first. < 1326236056 641683 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1326236064 174641 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@src Kleiski (***) < 1326236064 650199 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Source not found. Just try something else. < 1326236069 843417 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't mean "process" in any kind of concurrent sense. < 1326236082 302898 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :um < 1326236085 871673 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@src Kleisli (***) < 1326236086 350360 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Source not found. And you call yourself a Rocket Scientist! < 1326236093 919962 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t Kleisli < 1326236094 794768 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall a (m :: * -> *) b. (a -> m b) -> Kleisli m a b < 1326236107 3907 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :@src (,) (&&&) < 1326236107 521652 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Source not found. < 1326236115 213547 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :halp < 1326236125 185049 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know that (,) is an Arrow < 1326236135 383756 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :@src (->) (&&&) < 1326236135 848054 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Source not found. I've seen penguins that can type better than that. < 1326236136 958073 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first argument has the wrong variance < 1326236139 60292 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1326236155 26095 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@src (&&&) < 1326236155 524462 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :f &&& g = arr (\b -> (b,b)) >>> f *** g < 1326236169 355698 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1326236177 965959 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it takes a single flow of data and splits it in two. < 1326236184 883840 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t arr < 1326236186 93969 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall b c (a :: * -> * -> *). (Arrow a) => (b -> c) -> a b c < 1326236197 240570 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (f &&& g) x :: Expr < 1326236198 420776 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Couldn't match expected type `SimpleReflect.Expr' < 1326236198 420968 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : against inferred ... < 1326236202 146498 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1326236212 815908 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (f &&& g) x :: (Expr, Expr) < 1326236213 642872 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : (f x,g x) < 1326236218 45022 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1326236239 952405 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (f *** g) (x,y) :: (Expr, Expr) < 1326236240 915494 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : (f x,g y) < 1326236257 275334 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1326236262 466871 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure I get what arr is doing though < 1326236278 456611 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :er well I know what it's doing in that case < 1326236279 945575 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :just not in general < 1326236299 387928 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :turns a function into an arrow < 1326236303 945927 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it like... ah okay < 1326236320 576163 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes I see that based on the type. < 1326236354 27846 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :arr (join (,)) >>> f *** g < 1326236436 257507 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :some have complained that arr is used too much in the Arrow definitions < 1326236454 731118 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes it hard to generalize to arrow-like things that _don't_ embed all functions. < 1326236499 60896 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or arrow-like things where you want to be able to analyze the flow at runtime without running into opaque functions all the time < 1326236611 843303 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, you could imagine using arrow notation to build a circuit of logical gates < 1326238283 393045 :cheater!~cheater@dslb-084-057-009-068.pools.arcor-ip.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1326238449 898249 :Frooxius!~chatzilla@cust-101.ktknet.cz QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.17/2009122204]