00:00:01 <oerjan> yes, probably, but the supply of flipped humans is remarkably low.
00:00:20 <fizzie> There's an Asimov (IIRC) story about a flipped human.
00:00:34 <fizzie> He has problems digesting, if I recall correctly.
00:00:43 <oklofok> to me that sounds like an excuse for being able to patent the same thing twice.
00:00:52 <fizzie> But it might not be altogether factually accurate.
00:00:59 <oklofok> fizzie: not to mention being LEFT-HANDED
00:01:13 <oerjan> oklofok: but it won't have the same effect on a human, so why should they be equivalent patents?
00:01:51 <oklofok> i have to think about this
00:02:18 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chirality_(chemistry)#In_biology
00:03:13 <oklofok> let's say there's a drug that works just like aspirin, except that a permutation f is built between humans such that it actually works on you (x) like aspirin would've worked on f(x)
00:03:33 <oklofok> of course i suppose the situation is a bit different
00:03:45 <oklofok> a bijection is built between humans and stones
00:04:01 <oklofok> okay so maybe you win for now
00:04:16 <fizzie> Oh no, it's the glove example (in Wikipedia).
00:05:15 <fizzie> Also I've been told that d-LSD, which does stuff to people, has a stereoisomer l-LSD, which does not do anything. (But I doubt there are patent issues there.)
00:06:47 <oklofok> that's the best description of lsd i've ever heard
00:07:35 <oklofok> A totally pure salt of LSD will emit small flashes of white light when shaken in the dark.[5] LSD is strongly fluorescent and will glow bluish-white under UV light.
00:08:00 <oklofok> lsd must be the second coming of fucking jesus o_O
00:08:59 <fizzie> Also you can hear God's voice if you put some in your ear. (Not true.)
00:09:56 <oklofok> i think you'd hear a lot of things
00:11:08 <fizzie> I was probably thinking of that seashell/ocean thing there.
00:13:43 <Sgeo> kallisti, update
00:28:41 <zzo38> It is why I say they should abolish patents
00:36:18 <zzo38> Done next recording of D&D game.
00:37:16 -!- DeadlyFugu has left ("Leaving").
00:37:38 <itidus21> i think to understand patents you have to understand that investors need a way to protect their investments to avoid the investment market reducing to lowest common denominator of some kind
00:37:54 <itidus21> i think patent system is nothing more than investment protection
00:38:06 -!- oerjan has set topic: Now with itidus21's patented random topic destroyer | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
00:38:31 <zzo38> The patent system still needs to be adjusted a lot, even if they do not abolish it entirely. But my opinion is it should be abolished.
00:39:16 <oerjan> itidus21: yes, it said "We apologize for the recent topic change delay | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/"
00:40:04 <itidus21> well recently i have heard about a flood of new laws in usa all of which are terrifying
00:40:36 <itidus21> i don't think there is any hope for someone who isn't a cog in a corporation
00:41:53 -!- oerjan has set topic: New US law banning itidus21's patented random topic destroyer | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
00:41:58 <itidus21> 1 such danger which i guess is not a law is some items that were in public domain being pushed back into the non-public domain
00:42:05 <oerjan> i think it's best to nip this in the bud
00:42:22 <zzo38> itidus21: How does that work?
00:42:50 <itidus21> another is the thing about how us military can now take you away if they want to
00:43:03 <itidus21> i think.. i dunno if that one is gone though
00:43:14 <itidus21> then again theres SOPA.. i dunno much about that, probably going through
00:43:22 <zzo38> They are certainly seems dumb laws
00:43:35 <itidus21> i dunno how factual i am being since i dont research well
00:43:55 <itidus21> anyway, theres also some business about changing the way the patent system works drastically
00:44:45 <zzo38> Then, hopefully they will correct it instead of making it stupid a second time.
00:45:12 <oklofok> well it's obvious that humanity is doomed anyway so who gives a fuck
00:45:15 <itidus21> heard recently theyre looking into some kind of nicotine patch equivalent for marijuana using a mouth spray based on cannabis for helping addicts, after it was useed to help multiple sclerosis.. not sure about this either
00:45:18 <zzo38> But they probably don't know how to correct it
00:45:43 <kallisti> itidus21: cannabis addiction? no such thing.
00:45:48 <kallisti> not in the same way as nicotine.
00:46:01 <oklofok> i don't belive in nicotine addiction
00:46:17 <oklofok> i've been smoking half a pack a day for half a year and i don't have one
00:46:34 * kallisti actually quit smoking cigars recently.
00:46:43 <kallisti> I still smoke hookah occasionally but it's pretty much neglible to my health.
00:46:52 <kallisti> lately it's been like a month.
00:46:54 <itidus21> also.. in nigeria there was some kind of thing that 200,000 polio vaccinations contained some kind of stuff which can lead to problems giving birth
00:47:13 <itidus21> i just find random bits of troubling news i think
00:47:28 <oklofok> i have a smoking addiction, obviously. it's a fun way to pass time. but i don't actually feel anything if i skip a day or two. i just occasionally think i wish i had an excuse to go outside.
00:49:36 <oklofok> same for caffeine addiction, but caffeine at least feels like a drug, nicotine doesn't even seem to have any sort of effect on me. i tried snus but it doesn't do anything.
00:50:11 <oklofok> as for smoking, the first cigarette of the day feels nice, after that it's just an excuse to walk a bit and go outside.
00:50:17 <kallisti> nicotine is comparable to heroin in terms of addictive potential
00:50:26 <kallisti> cannabis, on the other hand, is incapable of creating a physical dependence.
00:50:33 <kallisti> I don't see what a patch would accomplish
00:50:38 <kallisti> aside from being another source of THC for someone to take.
00:51:01 <itidus21> well apparently they're able to take out the THC a bit or something
00:51:09 <oklofok> and i assume it feels nice because you don't get as much oxygen as you need if you smoke passionately.
00:51:26 <oklofok> snus doesn't have this, and probably for this reason never feels like anything
00:51:31 <kallisti> I get crazy light-headed when I smoke hookah
00:52:10 <oklofok> but do you agree with my opinion on nicotine addiction? (that it's impossi)
00:52:51 <pikhq> Science has demonstrated that nicotine addiction is not merely possible but highly probable with nicotine intake.
00:53:12 <oklofok> or is it just me? or is the usual way to feel nicotine addiction that you feel (as always) that you need something to do with your hands, and nicotine addiction brings the memory to your brain that smoking gives something to do with them?
00:53:16 <zzo38> oklofok: No, but I agree that you have smoking addiction but not nicotine addiction, maybe?
00:53:49 <oklofok> well i have no idea what any sort of physical addiction is supposed to feel like.
00:54:46 <oklofok> then i have a physical addiction to sex, nicotine, occasionally alcohol, to math, to going to work, to my computer, and pretty much to anything that i occasionally want to do.
00:54:49 <kallisti> it's not going to feel unpleasant. or strange. your brain isn't going to make you think "oh I want nicotine". it just becomes a habit regardless of how it's rationalized.
00:55:14 <kallisti> oklofok: sure. some of those things are reasonable statements.
00:55:23 <oklofok> so obviously cannabis is just as addictive as tobacco
00:55:50 <kallisti> there is a distinct difference between a normal habit and a physical addiction to a substance.
00:55:51 <oklofok> well it actually does something to you, so you might want to avoid it when, say, at work.
00:55:55 <zzo38> I suppose, different people are affected in different way
00:56:11 <zzo38> So, it is the difference! Sometimes.
00:56:19 <kallisti> oklofok: uh, sure. that's irrelevant to the conversation.
00:56:52 <oklofok> actually i suppose i don't have a physical addiction to sex
00:57:08 <oklofok> because i actually feel that i need to have sex occasionally (90 times a day)
00:57:40 <oklofok> i specifically feel i want to use the computer
00:57:49 <oklofok> i never specifically feel i want to smoke
00:57:59 <oklofok> i could just as well buy an energy drink or a cola
00:58:24 <oklofok> well note that i often do just buy another energy drink
00:58:32 <oklofok> and then i don't need to smoke for another 3 hours.
00:58:35 <oklofok> then i have another choice
00:59:04 <oklofok> so really smoking and caffeine are my only physical addictions, the only ones that i can just change for anything else to do with my hands.
00:59:05 <kallisti> seriously I think you're probably in some stage of denial about it. It's not controversial opinion that nicotine has similar addictive potential to other highly addictive drugs such as morphene and heroin.
00:59:43 <oklofok> i haven't tried heroin, but if it's as awesome as it sounds i doubt i could continue my life without retrying it every now and then.
00:59:46 <kallisti> I smoked for several months and could immediately notice that I was addicted.
01:00:29 <oklofok> also when it's cold outside i don't smoke, i fill a bottle of water and drink it.
01:00:56 <kallisti> two of the most addictive and detrimental substances to humanity are perfectly legal.
01:01:01 <itidus21> <itidus21> anyway, theres also some business about changing the way the patent system works drastically -- After six years, Congress is once again considering Patent Reform legislation in the form of the America Invents Act (S. 23). At the heart of the bill is a shift from a first-to-invent to first-inventor-to-file system.
01:02:01 <itidus21> <itidus21> then again theres SOPA.. i dunno much about that, probably going through -- The originally proposed bill would allow the U.S. Department of Justice, as well as copyright holders, to seek court orders against websites accused of enabling or facilitating copyright infringement.
01:02:10 <oklofok> are there nicotine-free cigarettes?
01:02:24 <oklofok> i guess that would be the easiest way to check
01:02:42 <kallisti> also "e-cigarettes" which are basically just vaporizers. they're healthier but more expensive.
01:02:57 <itidus21> <itidus21> heard recently theyre looking into some kind of nicotine patch equivalent for marijuana -- http://www.news-medical.net/news/20120110/Now-cannabis-mouth-spray-to-help-e28098pote28099-addicts-quit.aspx
01:03:11 <kallisti> also you can roll your own cigarettes or smoke out of a pipe, which has fewer additives. It's still bad for you though. But much cheaper and slightly less harmful.
01:03:40 <oerjan> <kallisti> fizzie: I'm confused as to how the inverse transform can produce a non-periodic signal, as well.
01:03:52 <kallisti> itidus21: I can't take anything seriously when it says "pot addicts"
01:04:14 <itidus21> <itidus21> also.. in nigeria there was some kind of thing that 200,000 polio vaccinations contained some kind of stuff which can lead to problems giving birth -- http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/archive/ldn/2004/mar/04031101
01:04:42 <oklofok> kallisti: i've heard that heroin addicts start shaking and stuff if they don't get heroin
01:04:56 <oklofok> i've also heard this about nicotine, but that's obviously not true
01:04:57 <pikhq> So, they're actually making an Ender's Game film. Should I be horrified preemptively?
01:05:48 <kallisti> oklofok: it's definitely exaggerated a bit in movies, for example. but yes there are withdrawal symptoms of both heroin and nicotine...
01:05:57 <oklofok> i mean why the fuck is it called physical addiction if there are absolutely no physical signs o_O
01:06:25 <pikhq> Also, caffeine's withdrawal symptoms tend to be in the form of headaches.
01:06:28 <kallisti> oklofok: perhaps you should try heroin, then.
01:06:32 <oerjan> kallisti: you realize that if a/b is irrational, then e^(iat) + a^(ibt) is not periodic? :)
01:06:45 <oklofok> kallisti: i just said i would probably never want to give that up
01:06:51 <oklofok> how would that be a good choice for me?
01:07:09 <kallisti> oerjan: no I did not know that.
01:09:55 <kallisti> it's just something I'll need to learn when i have some time.
01:10:09 <oerjan> kallisti: well it shows you can get non-periodic functions even with two terms
01:10:11 <oklofok> numbers are trivial, you should learn symbolic dynamics instead
01:10:41 <zzo38> oerjan: I didn't know that either, but now I know
01:11:00 <kallisti> oerjan: the fact that non-periodic functions are trivial to produce doesn't really explain to me how frequency domain can translate to non-periodic time domain.
01:12:18 <oklofok> oerjan: can you sic e^(iat) + a^(ibt)?
01:12:51 <itidus21> <itidus21> 1 such danger which i guess is not a law is some items that were in public domain being pushed back into the non-public domain -- Works from certain countries that were in the public domain because they didnt comply with formalities of US law (like notice and renewal requirements), or because they were published in countries that didnt have copyright relations with the US (like the S
01:12:52 <itidus21> oviet Union before 1973) had their copyrights restored on January 1, 1996.
01:13:18 <kallisti> itidus21: I'm going to get oerjan to ban you due to excessive self-quoting.
01:13:39 <oklofok> if you can sic it, then i suppose i understand your confusion even if you don't know what sic means. as i'm sure you do, i suppose you can sic it.
01:14:00 <oklofok> kallisti: guess what i'm going to do now btw :D
01:14:05 <oerjan> oklofok: i know what (sic) means, but why should i put it on something i already corrected
01:14:23 <oklofok> oerjan: because i wanted to know that was correct
01:14:33 <oklofok> sorry, i missed that line.
01:14:43 <oklofok> now i understand all kinds of thing.
01:15:36 <oerjan> oklofok: i suppose the other is also correct if a/(b ln a) is irrational
01:16:21 <oklofok> i was gonna say i have no idea, but actually i now realize you're talking about trivial stuffs.
01:16:38 <itidus21> maybe if i must rant i should do it by pastebin
01:16:51 <oklofok> itidus21: or on the channel
01:17:07 <oklofok> only everyone except me is annoyed, so who gives a fuck
01:17:52 <zzo38> Are you sure everyone except you is annoyed?
01:18:10 <oklofok> i'm the only one actively unannoyed though.
01:18:29 <oklofok> some of you just stand in a list and keep your mouths shut
01:18:30 <zzo38> I am not annoyed by it either
01:19:55 <itidus21> i think the effect in law is similar to the effect in technology where progress in technology doesn't lead to diminished labor rates
01:20:05 <itidus21> (or maybe slightly it does im not sure)
01:20:23 <itidus21> and in the same way more laws doesn't bring more and more fairness or justice
01:20:40 <pikhq> itidus21: Funny, progress in technology seems to have lead to significantly diminished actual labor rates, just not time-spent-"working" rates. :P
01:20:46 <oerjan> <olsner> If you can read this text, you are wasting your life <-- NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
01:21:07 <zzo38> Do you think the current way of catching errors from pure functions in Haskell is not good way and could be made a better way?
01:21:34 <itidus21> in other words, all these laws that get introduced year after year don't make anything any better
01:21:47 <itidus21> maybe its a very wrong and cynical view
01:22:21 <itidus21> after all.. capital punishment is being outlawed many places.. = good..
01:23:19 <oklofok> if half of humanity was randomly slaughtered, the rest of us would have twice as much money
01:23:20 <zzo38> They are I/O exceptions but it seems not quite right. Better way, in my opinion, would be, have a macro make a function into I/O action with specified strictifying and those one can be made caught exceptions.
01:24:31 <oerjan> zzo38: that makes a complete mockery of referential transparency
01:24:33 <oklofok> we could all make our own milk :o
01:28:59 <zzo38> oerjan: Is current way better or worse? I think it should be made with a macro, but current way they depend a lot on evaluation and means you can define something in terms of not defined seem wrong to me
01:35:14 <oerjan> zzo38: i don't know what to say but it would be a fundamentally different language.
01:36:53 <oklofok> you fundamentalists are all the same
01:37:44 <zzo38> oerjan: Are you sure? Current way seems not mathematically correct to me?
01:40:53 <oerjan> zzo38: it has a mathematical foundation in the imprecise exception theory. that may not be ideal. but your way changes a much _more_ fundamental property of haskell, one which it was designed to explore.
01:44:21 <zzo38> It seem to me, not only is not mathematically correct, but also can cause other problems too, such as strictness analysis and some other things
01:44:36 <zzo38> oerjan: Can you describe better please?
01:45:25 <oerjan> no, i don't know the details of the theory.
01:46:28 <kmc> if you want auditory hallucinations specifically you should take diisopropyltryptamine
01:47:02 <kmc> also auditory distortions like nonlinear pitch shift and "flanging"
01:47:06 <shachaf> kmc: Is it enough just to listen to someone trying to pronounce it?
01:49:00 * shachaf realises that's probably "di-iso-", not "diiso" pronounced as in Finnish.
01:49:05 <kmc> correct :)
01:49:42 <kmc> also pot addiction is a real thing, but it affects small minority of people who take pot ever
01:50:02 <kmc> you can become addicted to pretty much any sensation or activity
01:50:05 <kmc> some draw the distinction between physical addiction and psychological addiction
01:50:18 <kmc> i don't know the field well enough to know if this distinction makes sense or if it's bullshit dualism
01:50:48 <kmc> oklofok, but what would the money be worth
01:51:07 <oklofok> it's weight in fucking money that's what
01:59:26 <oerjan> oklofok: ah but most money is electronical these days
02:00:21 <oklofok> i suppose an addiction can only feel "physical" to things that are evolutio...narily (?) useful to have as addictions. for instance i have a very physical need to do pull-ups every day..
02:01:01 <kmc> or things that subvert evolved systems
02:01:29 <oklofok> i suppose, but i can't come up with such
02:01:48 <kmc> cocaine, heroin, etc
02:02:00 <oklofok> oerjan: i would probably take my cast out of the bank the day everyone i know is slaughtered
02:02:17 <oklofok> kmc: i hear heroin = nicotine in terms of addiction
02:02:50 <kmc> cocaine is a dopamine reuptake inhibitor; it increases the amount of dopamine in the space between neurons
02:03:05 <kmc> which increases dopamine-related signaling
02:03:35 <kmc> dopamine is one of the main chemicals involved in reinforcement and reward-seeking behavior
02:04:08 <oklofok> right so it feels great for a while. obviously you would need quite a bit of self-control not to use such a substance once you know what it feels like.
02:04:15 <kmc> the brain has evolved to seek activities which are evolutionarily useful, like exercise, sex, food, etc
02:04:35 <kmc> drugs like cocaine are addictive not because they're evolutionarily useful
02:04:48 <kmc> but because they directly screw with the system for rewarding evolutionarily useful activity
02:05:16 <kmc> so yes the addiction is every bit as physical as the need for sex or pull-ups
02:05:20 <oklofok> but you don't get the feeling "right now it would make sense to have sex, since that's fun", you get the feeling "oh god i need to fuck someone"
02:05:31 <kmc> similarly "oh god i need some cocaine"
02:05:45 <oerjan> oklofok: the norwegian minister of finance is fond of reminding us that most of our national capital is in the form of skilled labor and that we need to preserve that. (especially when someone suggests we use more of the saved-up oil money.)
02:05:46 <oklofok> you don't feel "i really need to do pull-ups since i want to get strong", you feel "i really need to do some pull-ups right now"
02:06:13 <oklofok> but, at least i, feel "smoking is so much fun, i wish i could do it all day"
02:06:38 <oklofok> i don't feel it every now and then when i'm low on nicotine, i would like to do it all the time.
02:06:57 <kmc> so maybe you are not "physically addicted" to nicotine
02:07:15 <oklofok> i've been smoking half a year, and a god-awful lot
02:07:30 <kmc> you seem not to understand a damn word i'm saying
02:08:03 <oklofok> well i mean sure, it seems that i am not physically addicted to nicotine because i feel this way, by definition.
02:08:19 <oklofok> but how could i not be, if it is possible to be physically addicted to it?
02:08:26 <kmc> luck of biochemistry
02:08:34 <kmc> everyone's brain is a bit different
02:08:42 <kmc> some people can take cocaine or heroin and not get addicted
02:08:47 <kmc> there aren't a whole lot of them, but they do exist
02:08:55 <oklofok> but i get addicted to everything i do! i need to eat pizza *every day* nowadays
02:09:23 <kmc> yeah but what does pizza have to do with single-codon mutations in your nicotinic acetylcholine receptors
02:09:40 <kmc> i'm saying this stuff hinges on really specific genetic and biochemical details
02:09:50 <kmc> which are different for everyone
02:09:55 <kmc> that's one reason why drug addiction is heritable
02:10:35 <oklofok> one interesting exception is alcohol, i certainly like being drunk, but i don't really feel like getting drunk except like once a month.
02:11:00 <oklofok> right now i have a bottle of whisky 20cm from my hand but i'm too lazy to pour so it's been there forever.
02:11:28 <oklofok> my family is full of drunks
02:11:38 <zzo38> Is it still OK after thirty years?
02:12:32 <oklofok> i hear that sort of thing can lead to you despising alcohol or something, but i certainly get completely wasted every now and then and have nothing against drinking in general. i'm just too lazy to pour. i'm never too lazy to smoke, really.
02:13:53 <oklofok> perhaps that has to do with my... let me copypaste alcoholic stuffoline receptors
02:15:44 <oklofok> which i inherit from my true parents, who are lizard kings.
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02:19:55 <kmc> i am the lizard king, i can do anything
02:42:48 <oerjan> sixth cousin once removed
02:53:04 <zzo38> I do not understand how my idea of catching pattern matching errors and so on breaks referential transparency any more than the existing way does
03:02:01 <oklofok> well i don't even understand how noses work.
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03:27:45 <madbr> hey... I think I've got an intersting idea for a CPU design
03:28:10 <const> a friend had an optimization to TOD
03:28:37 <const> to make it go faster the system could run a modified ntpd system to change the speed at which seconds progress
03:29:41 <madbr> Have each cpu instruction output a result
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03:30:06 <madbr> And then instead of reading operands from registers, reading them from the results of the N previous instructions
03:30:44 <pikhq> Because fuck pipelining.
03:31:14 <madbr> Essentially it's a form of out of order execution
03:33:27 <madbr> pikhq: eh I guess it's a sort of mobile pipeline instead of a staged one... I think
03:35:45 <madbr> Essentially you have a whole bunch of execution units, each of one is an ALU plus enough multiplexers to read operands from the N previous units, and you assign a whole bunch of incoming operations at the same time on a large block of units
03:37:38 <madbr> So operation results become valid one after the other and trickles down the scheduled units
03:39:00 <madbr> You'd have to do "out of band" instruction scheduling though
03:39:28 <madbr> ie have the number of loop iterations etc determined some other way than branching instructions
03:41:38 <madbr> Would probably mostly be interesting as a coprocessor to a RISC cpu
03:44:37 <madbr> Like, write the program except a couple of critical loops in C, C code gets run on the RISC part, until it runs into a critical loop, then use the RISC to load up the critical loop mode registers etc and switch to some ultra fast assembly routine running in that kind of massive multi-ALU mode
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03:52:44 <Jafet> madbr: while you're at it, why not switch to an fpga on the fly
03:53:38 <Jafet> http://www.microsemi.com/en/products/whats-new/smartfusion
03:58:53 <madbr> jafet: aiming at somewhere between SIMD units and fpgas
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04:13:41 <oklofok> "<madbr> You'd have to do "out of band" instruction scheduling though" yeah this is important, if you instruct all your band members to gtfo at once, you have no band anymore
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04:44:55 <Jafet> You can arrange a reunion, though
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05:41:36 <zzo38> I made up a TeX program to print out the experience points required for each level in D&D game, up to as many as will fit on a page (which is 53). There is still more room on the page so I could include other information too; do you have other idea?
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06:15:57 <kmc> zzo38, you wanted a pure function in Haskell to catch exceptions?
06:16:19 <kmc> like tryPure (error "foo") => Left (ErrorCall "foo")
06:16:31 <zzo38> kmc: No. Not quite what I asked.
06:16:38 <kmc> what then?
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06:17:36 <zzo38> I meant a *macro* (not a function at all) which converts an existing function (or even single value) to a function results in I/O action, with specified strictness of contained values (to specify which are used), and be able to catch errors there.
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06:17:54 <kmc> that seems reasonable
06:18:10 <zzo38> Currently you catch them like other I/O errors, but the way it currently work seem wrong to me for more than one reason.
06:18:16 <kmc> maybe you can write a combinator library for that
06:18:18 <kmc> and not need macros
06:20:24 <zzo38> kmc: I think it won't be pure or mathematically correct or anything if it is not a macro. It doesn't make sense for it to be undefined and be defined due to that. There should be a layer in between, so that in one program it is undefined, and pass the layer, use a macro or something makes it a new thing based on the old one
06:21:12 <zzo38> Hopefully you can understand what I meant now. I do not completely understand what you meant that a combinator library can be written for that, however.
06:21:37 -!- elliott has joined.
06:22:37 <kmc> ii'm confused
06:22:39 <kmc> @type Control.Exception.try . Control.Exception.evaluate
06:22:39 <lambdabot> forall a e. (GHC.Exception.Exception e) => a -> IO (Either e a)
06:22:46 <kmc> isn't this the one-argument version of what you want?
06:22:54 <kmc> for whnf strictness
06:23:08 <zzo38> Like, say you have: f :: Int -> Int -> Int; f 0 x = x; g :: Int -> Int -> IO Int; g = xyz 2 f;
06:23:35 <zzo38> kmc: I know about try and evaluate but that is what seem wrong to me. One thing the strictness is not always correct
06:24:17 <zzo38> (In my example, "xyz" would be the macro that does that; it isn't a function, so g = xyz; or g = xyz (1 + 1) f; is not allowed.)
06:25:07 <zzo38> Now, g 1 5 is IO action calling the pattern match exception, and g 0 8 is same as return 8
06:26:13 <elliott> kmc: oh, are you and zzo38 discussing haskell?
06:26:14 <zzo38> Are you less confused now, or even more confused?
06:26:20 <kmc> i guess we are
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06:32:22 <ais523> <Susan> Mike had written a series of tutorials on Funge-98, do you know if any others exist besides the ones currently posted on the rcfunge98.com site?
06:32:23 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
06:32:51 <ais523> in other words, anyone know of any Funge-98 tutorials? this seemed like a good place to ask
06:33:12 <zzo38> kmc: Do you have any more answer to me by now?
06:33:15 <ais523> although probably a bad time, this is an awful time for people in most of the most common timezones for #esotericers
06:33:17 <elliott> ais523: wow, I assumed Susan had abandoned rcfunge
06:33:17 <zzo38> Or anyone else answer?
06:33:34 <zzo38> Do you even understand what I mean, finally?
06:33:36 <ais523> elliott: esolangs tend not to need all that much maintenance
06:34:44 <ais523> I'm wondering if Deewiant has some, he's the person I'd rate as most likely to have a Funge-98 tutorial in this channel
06:34:49 <zzo38> elliott: What is your opinion of my comments about this Haskell programs?
06:34:50 <ais523> also, what are you doing awake?
06:34:55 <elliott> http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=funge-98+tutorial not promising
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06:35:01 <ais523> is this late at night or early morning for you, or do those terms have no meaning nowadays
06:35:09 <elliott> zzo38: i have no idea what the context is
06:35:15 <elliott> ais523: early morning right now
06:35:31 <ais523> elliott: I decided the same thing, so I went to work
06:35:38 <ais523> I had to get in early, by around 9am, to prepare a tutorial
06:35:41 <zzo38> elliott: Then read it!
06:35:48 <ais523> so I'd have at most 3 hours sleep even if I managed to get to sleep instantly
06:35:51 <ais523> so I decided it wasn't worth it
06:36:06 <ais523> (I slept much of yesterday afternoon, due to only getting 2 hours sleep the day before)
06:36:52 <zzo38> What it was, is I was discussing about a new way to do catching pattern matching failures and user error catching of pure functions in IO actions, by using macros.
06:36:53 <ais523> what timezone would you say you're in at the moment?
06:37:16 <ais523> (that is, if someone with a normal sleep schedule were sleeping at the same times as you, what timezone would they have to be in to make it a normal schedule?)
06:37:49 <zzo38> elliott: Now do you understand?
06:37:53 <zzo38> zzo38: Now do I understand?
06:38:28 <elliott> ais523: err, I'm not sure; I slept about 8 hours, at least, from 21:00-05:00 or so
06:38:34 <zzo38> ais523: Do you know?
06:38:52 <ais523> elliott: ooh, I envy that sleep schedule
06:39:00 <ais523> I used it deliberately for a few days, but it made me ill
06:39:13 <elliott> ais523: it's awful, i get tired in the afternoon
06:39:30 <elliott> maybe it'd be better if it got bright earlier
06:39:32 <ais523> actually, I think mine was even more extreme, along the lines of 18:00-02:00
06:39:42 <ais523> and yes, I came to the conclusion that it works great in summer but doesn't work in winter
06:39:57 <ais523> (current thoughts as to the optimal sleep schedule: sleep 6-8 hours and wake at sunrise, regardless of when sunrise is)
06:40:22 <zzo38> I have a program to calculate the sunrise and all planets rise, but it doesn't include refraction, and it also doesn't include the apparent size of solar disc
06:40:26 <elliott> ais523: you misspelled 10+
06:41:08 <zzo38> ais523: I would think 18:00 is too early to sleep? At least to me, and people I know, it is too early
06:41:26 <zzo38> But I do sometimes wake up as early as 02:00
06:41:33 <zzo38> Not often, though.
06:42:16 -!- DCliche has changed nick to Klisz.
06:48:30 <fizzie> ais523: That schedule's going to be hard to follow in places north of the Arctic Circle, or south of the Antarctic, at least year-round.
06:49:39 <fizzie> I didn't feel like repeating.
06:49:43 <fizzie> "I haven't slept in ten days and I'm SO TIRED, but some dude in the IRC said this is optimal."
06:49:59 <elliott> fizzie: Months, on the South Pole.
06:50:01 <ais523> fizzie: I was basing it on UKish latitudes
06:50:09 <elliott> Then you just sleep for another 3 months or whenever it was.
06:50:17 <elliott> I... guess it's efficient?
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06:51:16 <fizzie> But it was just "sleep for the 6-8 hours before sunrise" always, you don't get to sleep in winter *or* summer.
06:51:47 <elliott> Well, it's even more efficient.
06:54:38 <zzo38> Does the rising/setting depends on sun declination?
06:57:05 -!- Klisz has quit (Quit: SLEEP, GLORIOUS SLEEP).
07:02:06 -!- MDude has changed nick to MSleep.
07:04:01 <elliott> 01:14:00: <oklofok> kallisti: guess what i'm going to do now btw :D
07:04:04 <elliott> oklofok: how was the heroin
07:04:14 <zzo38> I would like to understand geometry of rising/setting. Astrolog has astro-graph so I can see it on the map of the world. There is yellow vertical line plotting hour angle, one point on the yellow line marked which is the declination, and the curved line red/green for rising/setting.
07:08:12 <elliott> 02:09:23: <kmc> yeah but what does pizza have to do with single-codon mutations in your nicotinic acetylcholine receptors
07:08:23 <elliott> kmc: what DOESN'T pizza have to do with single-codon mutations in your nicotinic acetylcholine receptors
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07:38:39 <elliott> ais523: what's the opposite of infinitesimal?
07:39:26 -!- madbr has quit (Quit: Page closed).
07:39:28 <ais523> elliott: "standard" means not infinitesimal and not infinite
07:39:30 <elliott> but it isn't infinitesimal, either
07:39:33 <ais523> in nonstandard analysis
07:39:41 <elliott> ais523: hmm, that could work
07:49:31 <Jafet> What's the opposite of purple?
08:04:01 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8831630/whats-benefits-of-nancyfx
08:06:03 <Sgeo> elliott, if you're not here, I won't put your name next to updates, so if when you read logs you only search for your name, you might not see it
08:06:03 <monqy> What happens if I use the benefits?
08:06:38 <monqy> "if i was elliott, that's what i would say" - monqy
08:07:06 <ais523> elliott: hmm, one of the agora backup lists just got conference spam
08:07:28 <elliott> ais523: criminal cfj + playerhood inquiry cfj
08:07:31 <elliott> it's the only reasonable response
08:07:37 * Sgeo doesn't see it
08:07:46 <ais523> elliott: you can do it
08:07:59 <ais523> Sgeo: it was sent to tue, are you subscribed to that one?
08:07:59 <elliott> ais523: but i'd have to figure out a rule to charge them under
08:08:11 <elliott> err, Sgeo isn't subscribed to tue?
08:08:17 <ais523> come to think of it, why did tue even accept that?
08:08:33 <elliott> ais523: presumably they registered for the list
08:08:42 <Sgeo> I know I'm subscribed to at least one backup list, not sure if both or not
08:08:55 <elliott> Sgeo: I'll let the invaders know to use the backup lists
08:10:16 <Sgeo> I wouldn't be able to get to the password reminder thing if I wasn't registered, right?
08:10:55 <ais523> oh no, reddit was mentioned on slashdot
08:11:01 <ais523> and I didn't realise it'd lead to a moderation system flamewar until I saw it
08:11:05 <ais523> I should have done, obviously
08:16:15 <elliott> Sgeo: it's likely it's just going ito
08:16:53 <elliott> ais523: "'Smaller' sites like Reddit start the ball rumbling, Slashdot joins in, [...]"
08:17:02 <elliott> slashdot "bigger than reddit"
08:17:10 <ais523> people correct them later
08:17:34 <monqy> start the ball rumbling?
08:17:38 <ais523> but yes, most Slashdotters seem to be under the misconception that it's a major site
08:17:52 <Sgeo> elliott, it's not in my spambox though
08:18:01 <ais523> IMO it's historically important, and worth subscribing to, but not /large/
08:18:01 <pikhq> To be fair, once upon a time it was relatively large.
08:18:19 <pikhq> Slashdotting really was a major phenomenon.
08:18:25 <elliott> ais523: I think the only thing that can be slashdotted nowadays is, e.g. a teacup
08:18:37 <pikhq> But the web grew, and Slashdot did not.
08:18:38 <shachaf> What about that potato web server?
08:19:03 <shachaf> Note: Either an actual potato or Debian Potato would do.
08:19:56 <ais523> elliott: actually, I think it's more a case of data having got larger
08:20:07 <ais523> nowadays, webservers are used to serving up gigabyte-large videos
08:20:36 <ais523> elliott: well, I know I've watched videos over 1GB large, either metric or binary
08:20:59 <shachaf> ais523++ # metric or binary
08:21:04 <elliott> "Webservers" aren't used to that; big webservers are
08:21:20 -!- cswords has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
08:22:29 <ais523> context is that reddit's planning to shut down for a while to protest against SOPA
08:22:45 <shachaf> peer++ # eh resets connectoins and doesn't afraid of anything.
08:23:18 <shachaf> If elliott won't go to the Reddit, the Reddit will come to the elliott.
08:27:14 <kallisti> there's a sour melon flavor of powerade.
08:27:35 <Sgeo> elliott, kallisti SBaHJ update
08:33:30 <monqy> its very good but already hours old
08:33:33 <monqy> sgeo how could you...
08:33:44 <Sgeo> monqy, I only found out about it recently
08:35:10 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
08:35:44 <monqy> sgeo knows all therefore he knew about the sbahj update BUT DIDN'T SAY ANYTHING
08:37:23 <kmc> what's all this then
08:37:47 <elliott> the channel's in monqy mode
08:37:53 <elliott> delay expectations of coherency
08:38:00 -!- ais523 has joined.
08:39:59 <elliott> ais523: "Proving that one never stops learning, Charles Pooh, one of our graph theory developers, pointed out to me that my synonyms item could have been done much better. I had broken one of the very rules that I wrote about in my “10 Tips for Fast Mathematica Code” entry—”Use built-in functions.”?
08:40:58 <ais523> elliott: you /have/ to use built-in functions to get reasonable performance out of Mathematica, as that's what it's tuned for
08:40:59 <kmc> i've already decohered
08:41:09 <kmc> BUILT IN FUNCTIONZ
08:41:16 <ais523> e.g. it's really fast at doing turing machines, but nowhere near as fast at doing sort-of-like-turing-machines-but-not-quite
08:41:33 <kmc> guido van rossum says that functional languages are the ones where map and filter etc are magical builtins
08:41:45 <kmc> python isn't functional because you can implement map in a few lines of code
08:42:06 <ais523> a few lines? how stupidly verbose
08:42:06 <monqy> well you need them to be builtin if you want performance
08:42:16 <elliott> 22:47:58 <The_Journey> how may I get a call stack when my program crashes?
08:42:16 <elliott> 22:48:09 <shachaf> You may not. Thanks for asking.
08:42:20 <elliott> shachaf: Hey, -xc works /most/ of the time.
08:42:29 <ais523> any reasonable functional language should be able to do map, filter, and both folds in three or fewer lines of code, putting line breaks in the natural places
08:42:31 <kmc> shachaf tells it like it is
08:42:47 <kmc> data Maybe# = Just# a | Nothing#
08:42:51 <shachaf> kmc: Hey, I elaborated a little more later on!
08:42:54 <elliott> it just uses a null pointer for nothing
08:42:55 <kmc> it's faster!!!!!!1!!!!
08:43:01 <kmc> omg the optimizationsz
08:43:03 <elliott> and is otherwise a pionter to the just value
08:43:07 <kmc> elliott, you're onto something here
08:43:08 <ais523> that was my interpretation of Maybe# too
08:43:14 <kmc> that would be srsly better right
08:43:14 <elliott> this means that Maybe# Int# can't represent 0
08:43:19 <ais523> although I hadn't thought it through in that much detail
08:43:26 <ais523> elliott: hmm, Maybe# would have to always use a pointer
08:43:26 <kmc> elliott, the kind of Maybe# would forbid that anyway
08:43:35 <kmc> it would be * -> * like the regular Maybe
08:43:41 <elliott> kmc: nah, kind polymorphism, dude
08:43:43 <pikhq> ais523: Heck, even an unreasonable functional language can pull them off in 10 or 15 lines.
08:44:17 <pikhq> (for my canonical example of "unreasonable functional langauge" I shall point you to clambda)
08:44:19 <ais523> now I want to invent a functional language in which map is incredibly hard to write
08:49:12 <ais523> it's probably only a couple of characters in ursala
08:49:23 <ais523> and only hard to write, because doing so would actually require learning ursala
08:49:35 <elliott> ais523: I suspect it's one character; the problem is that you have to write it without using map
08:51:06 * elliott wonders if you can convince repa to stick an array's data at a particular pointer.
08:51:09 <monqy> first result for ursula is arc forum and the link in the post title is broke :(
08:51:17 <monqy> ursula programming language
08:52:52 <kmc> elliott, http://hpaste.org/56368
08:53:03 <elliott> monqy: as consolation: http://arclanguage.org/item?id=6155
08:53:10 <kmc> it works except sometimes nothing# segfaults
08:53:16 <kmc> but that's just the price you pay for SPEED
08:53:37 <elliott> kmc: i want to show #haskell
08:53:41 <kmc> you should do it
08:53:51 <monqy> elliott: that post is too mysterious for me to tell if it's good or bad
08:53:59 <monqy> but it looks a bit on the absolutely crazy side
08:54:21 <monqy> #comment -[ yes good ]-
08:54:28 <elliott> kmc: <elliott> Help!! I've been trying to optimise my code with unboxed Maybes but nothing# sometimes segfaults! http://hpaste.org/56368
08:54:43 <kmc> elliott u troll
08:55:06 <elliott> kmc: it's ok i put a :P face after it
08:55:20 <kmc> i really should have put "just say maybe to drugs" as the module haddock
08:55:28 <shachaf> elliott: hlint tells you why it's broken.
08:55:34 <shachaf> You're not usingCamelCase.
08:55:37 <Sgeo> There is no place to camelcase!
08:55:42 <kmc> acme-maybehash
08:56:14 <elliott> kmc: I think maybe#'s type doesn't have enough #s in it.
08:56:24 <kmc> yeah it would be faster if it were maybe###
08:56:36 <kmc> truly optimized haskell code is about 40% hash by weight
08:57:00 <kmc> «just# = M# . unsafeCoerce#»
08:57:07 <kmc> fuck, why did i compose a newtype constructor with unsafeCoerce#
08:57:08 <shachaf> nothing# should be (void*)0, just# nothing# should be (void*)1, etc.
08:57:10 <kmc> that's just sloppy
08:57:19 <elliott> haskell's all about safety
08:57:39 <kmc> yeah i used howard's curry to prove that Maybe# exists, in the type system
08:58:02 <kmc> howard's curry with a side of samosas and bhang lassi
08:58:16 <kmc> curry-howard. chowder.
08:58:17 <elliott> shachaf: I've already said "Hurry-Coward isomorphism". :(
08:58:38 <monqy> i always dyslexia it into hurry-coward in my head oops
08:58:41 <kmc> i'll have a jumbo bhang lassi, extra bhang, hold the lassi
08:58:49 <elliott> monqy: http://web.archive.org/web/20090113084759/http://www.basis.uklinux.net/ursala/
08:59:01 <elliott> http://web.archive.org/web/20080704174715/http://www.basis.uklinux.net/ursala/manual.pdf doesn't load :(
08:59:11 <monqy> at least i can read the
08:59:22 <elliott> kmc: hey how do i get repa to put an array at an address thanx
08:59:30 <kmc> moar unsafeCoerce#
08:59:40 <kmc> if that fails load some FORTRAN into a ByteString and execute it
08:59:51 * Sgeo derpishly just now realizes that you can make isNothing from maybe
08:59:52 <kmc> damn i should make a quasiquoter for inline FORTRAN
08:59:59 <Sgeo> I mean, fromJust and fromMaybe occured to me sooner
08:59:59 <kmc> then Haskell can take over the scientific HPC world
09:00:07 <elliott> `addquote <kmc> damn i should make a quasiquoter for inline FORTRAN
09:00:12 <kmc> :t maybe True (const False)
09:00:19 <HackEgo> 799) <kmc> damn i should make a quasiquoter for inline FORTRAN
09:00:20 <Sgeo> (Actually, in one place I'm using maybe where fromMaybe makes more sense
09:00:21 <kmc> Sgeo, you can make anything that operates on Maybe from maybe
09:00:34 <kmc> :t maybe Nothing Just -- or did I just blow your mind
09:00:34 <elliott> It's almost like some kind of dogamorphism.
09:00:50 <lambdabot> ddarius says: isJust :: Maybe a -> Bool; isJust = unsafeCoerce
09:00:57 <elliott> unsafeFromForeignPtr sh fptr
09:00:57 <elliott> (\ptr -> peekElemOff ptr $ toIndex sh ix))
09:00:59 <kmc> it works too (fsvo)
09:01:04 <elliott> NO REPA NO THAT ISN'T WHAT I WANT
09:01:28 <kmc> http://mainisusuallyafunction.blogspot.com/2010/09/executing-bytestring.html do it this way
09:02:01 <elliott> For security reasons, of course !
09:02:01 <elliott> Unless you want Haskell to be the new C, as far as execution of arbitrary code is concerned…
09:02:08 <elliott> kmc: you're a bad person. you made haskell insecure
09:02:44 <kmc> that code segfaultz on my system now
09:02:48 <kmc> prolly stupid NX bit
09:03:19 * kmc stomps off in search of mprotect binding
09:03:55 <elliott> kmc: <nick8325> elliott: i could be wrong, but since Addr# has kind # i don't think you're allowed to cast it to Any, are you?
09:04:22 <kmc> unsafeCoerce# can cast between kinds
09:04:26 <kmc> it's just that powerful
09:04:38 <kmc> you can't ignore my techno
09:04:46 <elliott> kmc: Your Show instance is wrong.
09:04:55 <kmc> no your brain is wrong
09:06:08 <elliott> why am i reading repa's code
09:06:33 <elliott> $ do (sh, vec) <- forceIO arr
09:06:33 <elliott> return $ sh `seq` vec `seq`
09:06:33 <elliott> Array sh [Region RangeAll (GenManifest vec)]
09:06:39 <kmc> idiomatic haskell
09:07:03 <elliott> -> do mvec <- VM.unsafeNew (S.size sh)
09:07:03 <elliott> forceWith (VM.unsafeWrite mvec) arr'
09:07:09 <elliott> i could write my own forcing function
09:07:13 <elliott> assuming vector gives me the kind of placement i need
09:07:17 <kmc> use strength reduction
09:07:25 <monqy> wow that indentation
09:07:36 <kmc> this must be how dogs see
09:07:58 <elliott> hmm... Data.Vector.Unboxed.Mutable doesn't have any "cast pointer to vector lol" functions
09:08:07 <kmc> use storable vector
09:08:15 <elliott> kmc: <nick8325> oh, fair enough, i thought you were just crazy :P
09:08:29 <kmc> i should have more booze
09:08:45 <elliott> kmc: I don't think a storable vector would work.
09:08:57 <elliott> At least, Repa has unboxed ones under the hood and I don't think they're compatible.
09:09:06 <elliott> Although I suppose I could throw away the Repa array after forcing it...
09:09:30 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello).
09:09:58 <kmc> did you know the last segment of _2001: A Space Odyssey_ synchs up with "Echoes" by Pink Floyd
09:10:11 <elliott> Whoaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
09:10:17 <elliott> Nobody has ever said that in the history of ever.
09:13:37 <elliott> Data.Array.Repa.Internals.Forcing isn't exported :(
09:18:10 <ais523> bleh, I'm trying to print out a marksheet on this Windows computer here
09:18:16 <ais523> but apparently there isn't enough disk space to open Excel
09:19:08 <ais523> I can't think of something so important to save upon opening a spreadsheet program that it should refuse to open if it can't save it
09:19:32 <ais523> meanwhile, OpenOffice, which is also here, complained but allowed me to open the file
09:21:06 <pikhq> Knowing Microsoft? Probably saving a new copy of Excel to disk to run. :P
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09:28:05 <ais523> heh, OpenOffice crashed, then went into an infinite loop of asking to clear disk space trying to save its recovery data
09:29:08 <elliott> have you tried deleting something
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09:35:31 <kmc> have you tried starting some fires
09:37:14 <kmc> maybe it would work better if nothing# were the pointer 1 instead of 0
09:38:40 <kmc> that might be the best pointer of them all
09:49:32 <itidus21> <kmc> this must be how dogs see <kmc> use storable vector <kmc> i should have more booze <kmc> did you know the last segment of _2001: A Space Odyssey_ synchs up with "Echoes" by Pink Floyd
09:49:40 <Vorpal> I wonder which video games from the last 10-20 years will still be widely known in, say, 100 years. Which ones will become (and stay) classics? Some are pretty obvious, like people will most probably know about pacman. Probably super mario as well.
09:50:10 <kmc> desert bus
09:50:38 <kmc> <itidus21> <kmc> this must be how dogs see
09:50:46 <elliott> <kmc> <itidus21> <kmc> this must be how dogs see
09:50:49 <Vorpal> elliott, trying to remember which that one is. I heard the name before...
09:50:52 <fizzie> Dogs see with a storable vector?
09:50:52 <kmc> <elliott> <kmc> <itidus21> <kmc> this must be how dogs see
09:51:02 <elliott> <kmc> <elliott> <kmc> <itidus21> <kmc> this must be how dogs see
09:51:10 <elliott> Vorpal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Rigs:_Over_the_Road_Racing
09:51:27 <itidus21> with the absence of collision detection
09:51:29 <elliott> "a severe lack of collision detection and frequent violation of the laws of physics were the game's main problems."
09:51:33 <fizzie> Vorpal: Sega Bass Fishing.
09:51:43 <kmc> 100 years from now womankind is extinct and so they only play dating sims
09:51:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, I never even heard about that one :P
09:51:59 <Vorpal> so this immediately turned into a list of the worst games?
09:52:18 <fizzie> Vorpal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sega_Bass_Fishing "Gameplay: Bass Fishing is an arcade fishing game. Basically, someone choses a character then goes out on a boat to go and catch fish." (The description ends there.)
09:53:05 <kmc> no the best article is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_with_fraudulent_diplomas
09:53:26 <fizzie> I only know about it because it's in the four (four!) games chosen for the Dreamcast Collection for some reason.
09:53:36 <kmc> "The game struggled with critics due to its narrow nature. However, it did showcase the amazing graphical capabilities of the Dreamcast with the fish moving fluidly to create a smooth fishing experience."
09:53:38 <fizzie> (Sonic Adventure, Crazy Taxi, Space Channel 5: Part 2 and Sega Bass Fishing.)
09:53:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, wow. are the other games as bad?
09:54:28 <Vorpal> the only one I heard about there is Sonic Adventures. And I can't remember if that is one of the bad or good ones
09:54:45 <itidus21> sounds like its not a good one
09:55:21 <itidus21> there weren't really any good sonic games post-megadrive/genesis (i say this as someone who hasn't played them but reads on the topic a lot)
09:55:23 <fizzie> Sonic Adventure isn't bad; Crazy Taxi is I think a mediocre-to-goodish sandboxy car game; Sega Bass Fishing is... Sega Bass Fishing; and Space Channel 5: Part 2 is some sort of a strange rhythm game thing.
09:56:04 <Vorpal> itidus21, I heard that the recent sonic generations is pretty good
09:56:09 <elliott> "Curious, what would make some of the unicode characters display correctly but others not? I wasn't even aware there was an "inbetween", I thought you either see unicode characters rendered or you don't."
09:56:14 <Vorpal> haven't played it. Haven't played /any/ sonic game in fact
09:56:37 <elliott> fizzie: Isn't Crazy Taxi famous-ish?
09:56:43 <itidus21> sonic and knuckles is pretty cool though.. the way they stack up the cartridges
09:56:48 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/75/CrazyTaxi_cover.png certainly rings a bell at least.
09:56:56 <Vorpal> elliott, the font for a start
09:57:06 <fizzie> Sonic Adventure was I think the first "good" 3D Sonic; of course not everyone likes those, but quite a few do.
09:57:09 <Vorpal> (most likely cause even)
09:57:17 <fizzie> "The reception at the time of original Dreamcast version was overwhelmingly positive, including reviews from GameSpot and GameSpy being above 90%. The current Game Rankings average ranking is 88%.[11] It became one of the few Sega All Stars games. In Japan, it received an excellent 38 out of 40 from Famitsu.[12] Although criticized for its camera system, framerate issues, and fishing stages with Big, the game was still highly praised for retaining the f
09:57:17 <fizzie> ast and enjoyable gameplay that Sonic was known for in 2D as well as the game's graphics, multiple character storylines, and soundtrack."
09:57:26 <Vorpal> <itidus21> sonic and knuckles is pretty cool though.. the way they stack up the cartridges <-- eh?
09:58:09 <fizzie> Vorpal: The Sonic & Knuckles cartridge can be combined with Sonic the Hedgehog 3 to form "Sonic 3 & Knuckles", the game they were supposed to release but ran out of time. :p
09:58:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, combined as in physically connect them?
09:58:29 <fizzie> (It can also be combined with Sonic 2 to play as Knuckles in Sonic 2, but that's not such a big change.)
09:58:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, so it is an expansion pack of sorts?
09:58:44 <fizzie> You stick Sonic 3 on top of the Sonic & Knuckles game.
09:59:05 <Vorpal> or can it be used standalone?
09:59:07 <fizzie> You can also stick other cartridges there, and usually get to play one of the "collect the spheres" bonus levels.
09:59:12 <fizzie> It works as standalone too.
09:59:15 <elliott> fizzie: I'm imagining you just sort of balance them on top of each other.
09:59:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, that is probably an unique system they had there
09:59:37 <fizzie> Vorpal: But when you have Sonic 3 plugged in, you can play through the levels of both in one seamless "story".
09:59:59 <fizzie> Vorpal: Here's a picture: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sega_Genesis-_Sonic_%26_Knuckles_locked_on_to_Sonic3_flipped.jpg
10:00:05 <elliott> "Remember how UTF-8 was invented. The guys making Plan-9 looked at Unicode and said, "That's a good idea, but it's totally wasting half the bits," then made it up out of scratch. Microsoft could have done the same thing if they had a culture of innovation, but they didn't."
10:00:34 <Vorpal> elliott, that... is just stupid?
10:00:42 <kmc> yeah UTF-8 is a vastly superior alternative to Unicode
10:00:59 <fungot> fizzie: commissioner, mr van velzen has just said. it is true that fisheries play a social and cultural assets. europe' s undertaking in these critical areas must not be general, that it is right for europe to take advantage of the opportunities given to us by citizens at the heart of the socio-economic impact in the applicant countries to the european union
10:01:01 <Vorpal> elliott, there are so many things wrong with that stuff
10:01:15 <kmc> the trick is that you need only the bottom half of a '0' to distinguish it from a 1
10:01:18 <Vorpal> fungot, fisheries? Are you talking about that game too?
10:01:18 <fungot> Vorpal: madam president, ladies and gentlemen, it is essentially a humanitarian response to future situations which might arise. that is why i referred to earlier.
10:01:22 <kmc> and you don't need the flag or the little base on the '1' neither
10:01:27 <kmc> so that's some serious space savings
10:01:38 <elliott> Yay, the guy finally accepted my MONADS.
10:01:43 <kmc> M O N A D S
10:02:26 <itidus21> this government had a mandate from the public to create UTF-8, Mr. Speaker. Something the opposition ignored due to not being innovative Mr. Speaker
10:02:56 <fizzie> Vorpal: Anyway; in most Sonic games you collect (usually 7) Chaos Emeralds, and then can transform into Super Sonic; when you've got 3+Knuckles plugged in and continue to the latter half after collecting all, you can start collecting Super Emeralds and transform into Hyper Sonic. (Yes, I know how stupid it sounds.)
10:03:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, and hyper sonic does what?
10:03:54 <fizzie> It's like Super Sonic, except more.
10:03:57 <Vorpal> (also super sonic? Nintendo can't have been happy with that one)
10:04:23 <fizzie> "Sonic the Hedgehog 3 and Sonic & Knuckles were originally to be released as one game.[2] However, due to time and money contraints, it was later split into two separate games. However, Sonic & Knuckles contained "Lock-on Technology", where the Sonic & Knuckles cartridge would be put in the Sega Genesis system, and then another game could be placed onto the top of the Sonic & Knuckles cartridge itself.[3]"
10:06:27 <itidus21> i wanna take back my comments about post-megadrive/genesis sonics
10:06:53 <itidus21> since i have indeed not played any, or looked in depth into the question
10:07:11 <elliott> shachaf: Help!! The anti-ByteString-for-Unicode contingent is failing!!
10:07:17 <Vorpal> itidus21, I looked at some lets play of the last one at least
10:07:33 <shachaf> elliott: Hey, man, I did my part.
10:07:41 <itidus21> i had some kfc and i upset my teeth
10:07:48 <shachaf> Doctor's orders. It's bad for my mental health.
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10:08:38 <shachaf> Let them use their ByteStrings for text.
10:08:44 <elliott> shachaf: They should have merged that Text/UTF-8 stuff just to shut people up about it.
10:08:49 <Vorpal> <elliott> shachaf: Help!! The anti-ByteString-for-Unicode contingent is failing!! <-- what is it about?
10:08:51 <fizzie> ByteStrings for breakfast.
10:08:54 <kmc> people will never shut up about anything
10:09:06 <itidus21> what about including the data to describe each character in the beginning of the document
10:09:56 <itidus21> like {A = the 2 lines of length 1 forming a 30 degree angle from the top to the bottom and a line in the middle
10:10:13 <fizzie> Like, uh, a PDF file with embedded fonts?
10:10:33 <Vorpal> aren't ByteStrings mostly for handling (large) amounts of binary data? As opposed to actual text?
10:10:37 <Sgeo> kmc, elliott GreaseMonkey (does GreaseMonkey want on the list?) update
10:10:39 <itidus21> hmm embedded fonts yeah, thats the word i didnt know until now
10:11:05 <itidus21> you could use embedded fonts on every document :D
10:11:11 <elliott> I'm glad elliott GreaseMonkey got updated
10:11:20 <Vorpal> itidus21, you usually embed the used subset of the font in .pdfs
10:11:24 <kmc> hi elliott
10:11:27 <elliott> totally unlike his formerly-greasy self
10:11:34 <kmc> <elliott> <kmc> <elliott> <kmc> <itidus21> <kmc> this must be how dogs see
10:12:16 <itidus21> ok so embedded fonts probably isn't the solution to unicode
10:12:21 <elliott> <kmc> <elliott> <kmc> <elliott> <kmc> <itidus21> <kmc> this must be how dogs see
10:12:27 <kmc> unicode is a disease, we have the cure
10:12:33 <kmc> the cure is that foreigners need to learn english
10:12:42 <kmc> also mathematicians should quit their abstract mumbo jumbo and use real words
10:13:07 <Vorpal> elliott, what? Through recursive quotations?
10:13:40 <kmc> we will convert to ASCII and use the other 128 bytes to encode a series of pleasing softcore pornographic images
10:14:05 <fizzie> Vorpal: Anyway speaking of stacking cartridges, http://withfriendship.com/images/i/44407/sega-32x.jpg (It's rather slow to load, but did so finally, at least for me.)
10:14:36 <itidus21> the set of all mathematicians should define a mapping of abstract mumbo jumbo words to real words
10:14:45 <kmc> itidus21, they have that
10:14:49 <kmc> it's called "learn math"
10:15:12 <itidus21> i was trying to rephrase "<kmc> also mathematicians should quit their abstract mumbo jumbo and use real words" for irony
10:15:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, there is the sonic stuff, and a game genie, what are the rest?
10:15:47 <elliott> <kmc> unicode is a disease, we have the cure
10:15:47 <elliott> <kmc> the cure is that foreigners need to learn english
10:15:51 <elliott> i have seen people express this opinion seriously
10:15:56 <fizzie> Vorpal: The bottom layer is a Mega-CD; you put a regular MegaDrive on top to get a CD thing; then stacked on that is a Sega 32X, it's a MegaDrive add-on which has some 32-bit SH2s or whatever, I can't recall the details.
10:16:28 <Vorpal> and the thing between that an the game genie?
10:16:41 <fizzie> Vorpal: I can't quite make out what the red-rimmed thing is, and the grey thing seems to say 'cleaning system'.
10:16:48 <kmc> elliott, sure
10:16:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, also: what happened if you put a sonic & knuckles in another sonic & knuckles?
10:17:00 <kmc> people will also express seriously the opinion that the jews should be rounded up & killed
10:17:17 <fizzie> Vorpal: I think there are two Sonic & Knuckleses in that pile.
10:17:36 <fizzie> I'm not sure if that tower would actually run, but it looks fancy.
10:17:40 <kmc> in Germany it is illegal to disparage Unicode
10:18:03 <Vorpal> elliott, I guess with enough cartridges you could make a large circle of them. I doubt there isn't any sideways movement possible.
10:18:36 * elliott idly considers answering http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8832624/any-good-articles-on-optimizing-haskell-code.
10:18:47 <Vorpal> <elliott> i have seen people express this opinion seriously <-- ouch
10:18:48 <itidus21> it would be more cool if the combined object resembled a humanoid robot with a sword
10:19:07 <fizzie> Vorpal: Here's another confusing contraption: https://img.skitch.com/20111206-bg8k8khjfknd7siqbj825nph18.jpg
10:19:40 <Vorpal> <fizzie> I'm not sure if that tower would actually run, but it looks fancy. <-- hm I guess there could be issues with power, and at some point also the signal levels
10:19:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, not quite as absurd
10:20:08 <itidus21> this is what it should resemble http://gadgetsin.com/uploads/2011/11/robot_shaped_4_port_usb_hub_3.jpg
10:20:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, but big flat thing without support for most of it looks dangerous to the connector
10:21:07 * Sgeo wonders if the Robozzle Silverlight interface can be made to work
10:21:17 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yeah. I don't really know what they have there; there's the more compact Mega-CD unit, but I can't be sure what's under the 32X. The game second-to-top is Sonic & Knuckles again, but I'm not sure what that thing is where the controller wires go.
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10:22:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, no description offered on the page it was on?
10:22:23 <fizzie> No, it was a second-hand find.
10:22:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, same for the other picture?
10:22:53 <fizzie> Yes. "I can’t quite name everything I see in this picture, so if someone wants us to give a piece by piece rundown feel free."
10:22:55 <Vorpal> also that cleaning system thingy looks highly suspect. Cleaning what.
10:23:18 <fizzie> Ah, there's a commenter. "You’ve got a Sega 32X plugged into the base console (as it should be) but then the Master System adapter plugged into that (which may or may not be a functional combination), then a cleaning cartredge plugged into the master system adapter (which is just a piece of plastic with scrubby bits on the ends), so that completely breaks any functionality it may have had. Then a Game Geneie, two copies of Sonic and Knuckles (no reaso
10:23:18 <fizzie> n) and then Sonic 3. Also, a Sega CD to the side."
10:23:37 <fizzie> "About the biggest functional stack you could have would be Console + Sega CD + 32x, +Game Genie + Sonic & Knuckles, + another cart.
10:23:37 <fizzie> Or maybe if the 32x supports the master system adapter you could have Console + CD + 32x + Master System Adapter + Master System cart. (I don’t think there was a master system game genie)"
10:24:54 <fizzie> Vorpal: Anyway, Sega once made a handheld that played MegaDrive cartridges, so purely theoretically (and connector-wise) you could also plug in all that stuff (well, not the Mega-CD) into this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sega-Nomad-Front.png
10:25:08 <fizzie> That would probably look even more ludicrous.
10:25:34 <fizzie> "32X Add-on: Cannot be played on the Nomad due to an obscure cartridge shape that can't fit in the Nomad's cartridge slot."
10:25:41 <elliott> fizzie: I'm imagining a project to plug as many pieces of tech into each other as possible.
10:26:03 <elliott> Like, start from a laptop with a shitload of USB hubs, then USB adapters to everything, ..., TV, console, catridge, ...
10:26:07 <elliott> You could fill a house with it.
10:26:09 <fizzie> I don't really think 32X would run (at least for long) with batteries, anyway.
10:26:42 <fizzie> It's got 30 minutes of battery life with non-rechargable batteries, anyway. :p
10:27:33 <kmc> did anyone ever make a laptop that's powered by a small internal combustion engine
10:27:40 <elliott> kmc: <sid> Hi, how can I create a list with an immutable length please?
10:27:50 <kmc> like the ones on model aircraft
10:27:52 <Vorpal> elliott, hm, you could probably do even more with a desktop
10:28:13 <shachaf> #esoteric: All the frustration of #haskell, with none of the good parts of #haskell!
10:28:34 <Vorpal> elliott, I have like 8 USB 2 ports on the back (iirc), two USB 3 ports, two USB 2 on the front and one USB 3 on the front
10:28:45 <kmc> 2 in the front, 1 in the back
10:29:01 <Vorpal> kmc, that sounds more like a laptop?
10:29:08 <Vorpal> except it would be the side there
10:29:22 <Vorpal> oh wait, misread the context
10:29:22 <fizzie> They've had some fuel cell laptop prototypes, but that probably doesn't count as a combustion engine.
10:29:33 <kmc> now merijn will guess not only the question but the entire backstory of the question-asker
10:29:50 <elliott> kmc: <merijn> elliott: I suspect python experience, because python's tuples are essentially immutable lists
10:30:39 <Vorpal> elliott, the most USB ports I ever seen on a laptop was 6 hm. 2-4 is more usual
10:31:17 <Vorpal> elliott, yes but there is a limit to the number of devices on a single host controller
10:31:39 <Vorpal> elliott, since every port on my desktop has a separate host controller that means a lot more devices
10:31:49 <elliott> Vorpal: I never said it had to work.
10:33:38 <Vorpal> elliott, I also have firewire hm (and so does my laptop). Might be rather hard to find any device that supports that these days
10:33:40 <fizzie> You can connect any amount of computers with wires (the technical term is "net-work", I believe) but maybe that's contrary to the spirit.
10:33:54 <Vorpal> but I believe the limit for firewire is 63 devices?
10:34:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, well obviously you could easily fill a house with that yes. And networked printers (especially since those tend to be rather large), NASes and what not
10:35:21 <kmc> let's fill the planet with interconnected computers
10:35:23 <elliott> fizzie: Well, you want to optimise for the number of different device-types.
10:35:25 <kmc> i call it "the internet"
10:35:28 <elliott> kmc: Some kind of... internetworking?
10:35:31 <fizzie> Vorpal: They make those clevur eSATA/USB hybrid ports into laptops too these days.
10:35:42 <Vorpal> oh yes I have one or two eSATA ports too
10:35:47 <Vorpal> none of the hybrid ones
10:36:01 <Vorpal> (no such thing on my laptop, it is too old)
10:36:13 <Vorpal> (like, uh, almost 3 years)
10:36:19 <fizzie> "As the port is designed to work with both SATA and USB, neither organization has formally approved it. USB-IF states it does not support any connector used by other standards, these combo ports are to be used at your own risk,[1] --
10:36:30 <fizzie> "You'll plug your eye out?"
10:37:10 <fizzie> The "at your own risk" makes it sound like that.
10:37:17 <Vorpal> also what about that new intel/apple thingy. The uh, lightsomething
10:37:38 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm pretty sure it used to be lightsomething
10:37:48 <fizzie> Thunderbolts and lightning, very very frightening.
10:38:09 <fizzie> Light Peak was a codename for it.
10:38:11 <Vorpal> does anything use it (apart from apple products)?
10:39:30 <itidus21> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmCVYbTWU60
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10:42:39 <Vorpal> hm they dropped the actual fibre stuff? How boring
10:43:08 <fizzie> Can't send power over fibre (yet).
10:43:28 <fizzie> But yes, it's just boring copper.
10:43:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, yes you could by using a solar cell thingy at the end :P
10:43:59 <Vorpal> but more seriously you could use fibre for the data and copper for the power in the same cable
10:44:54 <Vorpal> it is not like you wouldn't need separate wires for data and power anyway
10:45:27 <Vorpal> (well okay, you can do networking over the mains and such, but iirc performance is rather bad)
10:46:50 <kmc> 1-wire does it
10:47:15 <fizzie> Copper is also cheaper, which is probably the more important reason.
10:47:29 <Vorpal> kmc, hm, not familiar with that bus (though I heard the name before, and thought "what a generic name"). But what is the data rate over that?
10:47:38 <kmc> dallas 1-wire
10:47:40 <Vorpal> also how does it form a circuit?
10:47:43 <kmc> and the data rate is not that high
10:47:49 <kmc> it's 2 wires incl. ground
10:47:59 <kmc> there's a ground wire and a power/data wire
10:48:25 <Vorpal> kmc, anyway for high speed connections (over copper) you usually use differential signaling afaik
10:48:49 <Vorpal> I wonder how that works for stuff like networking over the mains
10:48:59 <Vorpal> you can't really do that there
10:49:10 <fizzie> Not quite 2x2x10Gbps over 1-wire, I don't think.
10:49:58 <Vorpal> what sort of data rate does 1-wire have? I would guess in the range of kbps
10:51:25 <Vorpal> also youtube just spazzed out. It now says that every video was uploaded 42 years ago for me
10:51:44 <Vorpal> (in the channel video list thingy)
10:51:50 <Vorpal> (the date on the actual video is correct)
10:51:57 <Vorpal> wait no, they are not correct
10:54:40 <fizzie> I think the common ("homeplug"/IEEE1901) ethernet-over-power-lines just uses fancy modulation (xDSL-style) and high-enough frequencies, so that they carry over the neutral wire.
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10:55:28 <kmc> do they transmit only around the AC zero crossing, or all the time
10:55:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, xDSL uses phase modulation iirc?
10:55:51 <Vorpal> (which I have to admit I have no clue how it works)
10:56:37 <elliott> kmc: I know of that thing solely thanks to menuconfig.
10:56:59 <Vorpal> elliott, ah yes that is where I have seen 1-wire before
10:57:43 <ais523> going over past exam questions in a tutorial
10:57:49 <ais523> there was a "spot the six mistakes in this code" question
10:58:34 <Vorpal> ais523, were three of them much less obvious than the other 6?
10:59:03 <ais523> although some of them stemmed from the same root cause
10:59:16 <ais523> there was an array that wasn't initialized at all, and initializing it just brought up more problems
10:59:28 <Vorpal> which language was it?
10:59:51 <ais523> but it would have been the same in C, apart from the different syntax for allocating an array on the heap
11:00:56 <fizzie> Vorpal: I seem to recall at least ADSL supporting more than one modulation scheme (admittedly they could all be phase-related variants), using the "most suitable" one for each frequency subband. But I'm no telecomm engineer.
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11:07:00 <fizzie> At least QAM is used, and that's sort-of amplitude-and-phase-modulation.
11:08:10 <Deewiant> ais523: I have all the (Be)Funge specifications I'm aware of but no tutorials, sorry.
11:08:16 * Sgeo had alcohol in his mouth :/
11:08:46 <Vorpal> oh "Quadrature amplitude modulation"
11:09:04 <fizzie> It's what they use very much.
11:09:33 <Vorpal> Deewiant, ais523 was looking for a funge tutorial? Why?
11:10:02 <Vorpal> hm how many esolangs have tutorials?
11:10:25 <ais523> due to me being known as an esolanger
11:10:41 <Vorpal> I can't think of a single esolang that I know of any tutorial for
11:11:15 <Vorpal> ais523, are there intercal tutorials?
11:11:22 <fizzie> ais523: I don't think it's possible to have an "uninitialized" array in Java; all you can have is an array with elements initialized to their default values, which might informally count as one. (Cf. JLS 15.10.1p5 "Run-time Evaluation of Array Creation Expressions: ...array is created of the specified length, and each component of the array is initialized to its default value...")
11:11:30 <ais523> Vorpal: one unfinished one by Clinton Forbes
11:11:40 <ais523> fizzie: I meant a null pointer where an array should be
11:12:07 <ais523> I've been wondering about writing one myself, but I'm not sure if there's an audience
11:12:13 <ais523> perhaps I'll write a monad tutorial instead to annoy elliott
11:12:32 <Vorpal> ais523, I might read it. Actually being able to code in intercal would be cool
11:12:55 <fizzie> ais523: Does that "unfinished one" equal the "Diving into INTERCAL" blog?
11:13:09 <fizzie> Oh, the name's at the end of the comments; apparently so.
11:13:43 <ais523> Vorpal: I think the author got lost right around when he tried to make a non-infinite loop
11:13:44 <fizzie> So which animal would the O'Reilly INTERCAL book have?
11:14:09 <ais523> fizzie: it wouldn't, it'd be an O'Reilly book but it'd have something that no other O'Reilly book has on its cover
11:14:19 <ais523> different in nature, rather than just a different animal
11:14:48 <fizzie> O'Reilly has quite a few non-animal books already.
11:15:20 <ais523> oh, in that case, it'd have to just not have a cover at all
11:15:42 <fizzie> They have a set of "X Hacks" books which have tool covers, for example.
11:15:48 <elliott> <ais523> perhaps I'll write a monad tutorial instead to annoy elliott
11:15:56 <elliott> ais523: Is "annoyance" an appropriate description of a murder?
11:16:06 <elliott> * Sgeo had alcohol in his mouth :/
11:16:09 <elliott> Sgeo: You am will die now.
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11:17:02 <elliott> <fizzie> So which animal would the O'Reilly INTERCAL book have?
11:17:09 <elliott> fizzie: Also you SPACED AFTER THAT QUESTION AGAIN.
11:17:24 <elliott> fizzie: Should I set up a bot that does annoying things on "\? $"?
11:17:26 <fizzie> Perhaps even: happening.
11:17:30 <elliott> That might help you kick the habit.
11:17:32 <Vorpal> elliott, why do you care about that space?
11:17:48 <ais523> it's not as bad as the enigma punctuation style !
11:17:57 <elliott> Vorpal: Stop being irresponsible.
11:18:02 <elliott> ais523: Isn't that just French?
11:18:11 <Vorpal> elliott, no I'm curious.
11:18:40 <ais523> elliott: perhaps, but it still gets on my nerves slightly
11:18:47 <ais523> especially when sentences I write, in English, are corrected to it
11:19:04 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if there are Funge-98 tutorials in the #esoteric logs
11:19:09 <Sgeo> Why do the There She Is animations take so long to load?
11:19:19 <ais523> elliott: a level I submitted to Enigma is officially called "Choices, choices ..."
11:20:00 * Sgeo should play Enigma
11:20:13 <ais523> even if development is mostly dead
11:20:13 <Sgeo> Is it annoying to play with a touchpad?
11:20:20 <ais523> I got used to it surprisingly quickly
11:20:25 <ais523> it does take some getting used to, though
11:20:41 <ais523> and a lot of tweaking of the mouse speed option (which you can do using left and right in-game, so they probably realised it'd be necessary)
11:20:47 <Vorpal> ais523, I never managed to play it with a trackpoint
11:21:13 <Vorpal> and you need that tweaking when using the mouse depending on the level
11:21:16 <elliott> a trackpoint sounds perfect for enigma
11:21:41 <Vorpal> elliott, it really isn't
11:21:51 <Vorpal> elliott, the level of control is too low
11:22:01 <Vorpal> as in, not exact enough
11:22:32 <fizzie> Why are there so few trackballs around? I want to fondle some balls. :/
11:22:44 <ais523> fizzie: we have a trackball on the desktop at home, because there isn't enough table space for a mouse
11:22:56 <ais523> thumb trackball, I find them much superior to the finger-controlled versions
11:24:06 <oklofok> "<elliott> ais523: what's the opposite of infinitesimal?" on hyperreals, you can at least say finite for all nonzero values in R afaik.
11:24:12 <fizzie> Those "rod mice" are weird too. I don't know the term for it. There's a horizontally positioned rod, slightly like an oversized pencil, and you rotate it to go up/down, and do something, I don't know quite what, to move sideways.
11:24:14 <Vorpal> ais523, how do they compare to mice?
11:24:17 <elliott> oklofok: i was looking for something a little snappier
11:24:21 <oklofok> apparently ais523 already answered
11:24:38 <elliott> fizzie: The privilege of fondling balls is restricted to the chosen few.
11:25:19 <ais523> Vorpal: easy to use but slightly slower
11:25:44 <Vorpal> easier to use in what way? Better precision or what?
11:26:06 <ais523> they really obviously convey the assumptions behind Fitt's Law; with a mouse moving it is one motion and the adjustments are subconcious, with a trackball you notice yourself making them
11:26:08 <fizzie> Gah, I can't find even a picture of the horizontal-rod thing. What *are* they called?
11:26:09 <ais523> and I didn't say easier to use
11:26:16 <ais523> just, they aren't massively difficult to use
11:26:51 <ais523> Vorpal: trying to find funge tutorials in the logs
11:27:01 <Vorpal> ais523, I doubt spamming it helps
11:27:08 <ais523> Vorpal: I wanted five different results
11:27:19 <Vorpal> ais523, I thought pastelog includes all
11:27:47 <fizzie> Seems what you got was five similar results, sadly.
11:27:47 <ais523> pastelog's an interesting thought
11:27:48 <ais523> might be too much output, though
11:28:04 <elliott> c<fizzie> Gah, I can't find even a picture of the horizontal-rod thing. What *are* they called?
11:28:26 <oklofok> so umm, we say a minsky machine is somewhat reversible if it has only one configuration (say state f, zero counters) where it doesn't have a successor and only one config (say state i, zero counters) which doesn't have a predecessor, and it's injective on all configs.
11:28:45 <fizzie> ("never" is not really easy to stick in like that.)
11:28:49 <oklofok> is it undecidable whether you reach the final config from the initial one?
11:28:55 <elliott> fizzie: I'd'ne'er've thought.
11:29:47 <oklofok> we need this for a paper, but i don't know anything about minsky machines because computer science is such bleh :/
11:30:28 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Gah, I can't find even a picture of the horizontal-rod thing. What *are* they called? <-- oh yes, I only remember seeing them in the context of health care receptionists and similar
11:30:29 <elliott> oklofok: sorry we're all programmers here try #computejerisjojicience
11:30:33 <ais523> oklofok: what do you mean by injective, here?
11:30:48 <oklofok> ais523: all configs that have successors have different successors
11:30:59 <oklofok> so all except the final config that doesn't have a successor.
11:31:29 <ais523> ah, I was going to pigeonhole principle it, but then realised there are infinitely many states (obviously)
11:31:44 <oklofok> well infinitely many configurations
11:31:52 -!- pikhq has joined.
11:32:24 <oklofok> i have a state part taken from a finite set and a finite number of counters. values for those together i call a config
11:32:24 <ais523> where's the logs repo?
11:32:42 <ais523> I'll do this on my local machine, easier that way
11:32:55 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
11:33:20 <oklofok> from this we'd get that stability of a CA from a zero entropy SFT is undecidable
11:33:38 <oklofok> by running the machine backwards and some magic
11:34:55 <ais523> oklofok: I don't see an obvious reason why reversibility would suddenly make termination decidable in an infinite-state program
11:34:59 <ais523> but ofc that's not the same thing as a proof
11:36:40 <oklofok> reversibility certainly doesn't, but the specific problem statement might.
11:37:10 <oklofok> reversible minsky machines have a lot of undecidable problems, but we need a concrete reduction
11:37:17 <ais523> oklofok: wait, how many counters does this machine have?
11:37:33 <oklofok> as many as you like. two will suffice.
11:37:49 <elliott> oklofok: zero, one, infinity
11:38:10 <oklofok> that doesn't apply when you can prove something different happens at 2.
11:38:21 <elliott> ais523: http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/ob9oj/til_about_planethaskellorg/c3g3rfp?context=1
11:38:25 <kmc> elliott, this one is way better: http://hpaste.org/56369
11:38:26 <elliott> ais523: you know what you have to do...
11:38:27 <oklofok> but we're not restricting the counters anyway.
11:38:49 <elliott> kmc: you need pseq, not seq
11:38:51 <kmc> given various assumptions about GHC, it even won't segfault
11:39:01 <kmc> you're right though
11:39:04 * kmc hangs head in shame
11:39:07 <oklofok> for the journal version, we're planning to completely characterize the types of computation CA can do depending on the particular subshift
11:39:32 <oklofok> (zero entropy sofic subshift)
11:39:42 <kmc> . o O ( unsafePerformIO ( evaluate x >> return y ) )
11:39:58 <oklofok> it will be so awesome and no one will ever read it :)
11:40:00 <elliott> kmc: isn't that just pseq but slower
11:40:13 <ais523> sometimes I feel that way about my papers
11:40:16 <elliott> unsafePerformIO (return $! x >>= return >> return y) -- i cba to expand it beyond this
11:40:26 <kmc> unsafeDupablePerformIO ( evaluate x >> return y )
11:40:31 <elliott> hmm, no, pseq uses that lazy trick
11:40:38 <kmc> fix (>=> return)
11:41:25 <oklofok> we have 7 papers of original research now where i'm a coauthor (or sole author), so technically i could write up two phd theses based on those.
11:41:33 <kmc> anyway i think this one is almost a reasonable api for users
11:41:40 <kmc> except just# nothing# == nothing#
11:41:47 <oklofok> (4 are required, 3 would probably be tolerated)
11:41:49 <elliott> kmc: just special-case nothing# in just#
11:42:00 <elliott> kmc: by dynamically allocating new nothings
11:42:04 <kmc> too many pigeons, not enough holes
11:42:13 <oklofok> i wonder if elliott will love me if i do two phds this year.
11:42:24 <kmc> oklofok, at the same time?
11:42:34 <elliott> -- A nullary constructor gives a distinguished boxed value.
11:42:38 <oklofok> note that i'm planning to do 0
11:42:38 <elliott> kmc: so if it's boxed what does the # represent
11:42:40 * kmc has never "done" anyone with a PhD
11:42:48 <kmc> elliott, dope
11:42:55 <ais523> 2003-09-25 15:50:10: <fizzie> I'm afraid I'll end up writing a mathematica-based befunge interpreter. happens with every new language I learn.
11:43:29 <fizzie> ais523: Never did. (Or if I did, I've forgotten about it.)
11:43:33 <kmc> man now i'm embarrassed i've never slept with anyone who has a graduate degree
11:43:41 <kmc> much less two of them at the same time
11:43:42 <ais523> good, I'm vaguely glad you didn't
11:43:53 <ais523> seems my hatred for mathematica is greater than my love for befunge
11:44:17 <oklofok> kmc: does masturbation count?
11:44:18 <fizzie> I did some "pretty pictures with IFS" and that was about it.
11:44:21 -!- cheater has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
11:44:30 <kmc> well i don't have a graduate degree, so no
11:44:43 <kmc> i know, someone without a PhD, programming Haskell
11:44:45 <oklofok> you can't make the rules based on whether you would win o_O
11:44:47 <ais523> "Earn Earn Earn Earn Money Money Online Poundpyramid.com"
11:44:47 <kmc> sounds impossible but here i am
11:44:54 <ais523> that doesn't look like a plausible search query…
11:45:27 <elliott> kmc: did you at least get your degree in haskell
11:45:33 <elliott> the most academic of subjects
11:45:49 <elliott> ais523: i know i want to earn earn earn earn money money online poundpyramid.com
11:46:00 <oklofok> poundpyramid.com sounds legit enough
11:46:31 <ais523> oklofok: possibly is, spambots often spam the names of legit sites to try to beat them in the search rankings
11:46:46 <ais523> so many people search for a site rather than just visiting it…
11:48:09 <elliott> (diff) (hist) . . Language list; 07:32 . . (-790) . . 76.174.173.118 (Talk) (dag yall they was spammin up that shizzle i love this site i do not wanna see some spammed up sheezy)
11:48:09 <elliott> (diff) (hist) . . Language list; 03:48 . . (+266) . . 149.255.39.50 (Talk) (Kathy, the content you have graciously shared with us every once in a while is both inspiring and entertaining. And a blog is the perfect medium for this. A lot of the content is about your style and)
11:48:21 <ais523> 2004-09-14 21:49:24: <ZeroOne> what's rms? 21:51:31: <lindi-> ZeroOne: richard stallman, stallman.org
11:49:10 <ais523> elliott: also, 2004-11-04 is an awesome log, read all of it (it's also very short)
11:49:43 <elliott> well, it's certainly short
11:50:05 <fizzie> 2004-11-05 is in the same "genre".
11:50:25 <elliott> ais523: haha, two days later slava joins
11:50:47 <ais523> I have heard of him, but can't remember why
11:50:48 <elliott> hmm, jDoctor, I remembe that name from old #concatenative logs... I guess it must have been mentioned there
11:51:30 <ais523> hmm, this channel really has got more active over time
11:51:33 <ais523> even though it feels like less
11:51:37 <ais523> it's got less ontopic, though
11:51:46 <elliott> 03:35:33: <slava> i'm working on stack effect inference for postfix languages
11:52:01 <elliott> the last time people said this channel was dying was like 2005
11:52:08 <ais523> elliott: I don't think it's less active
11:52:15 <ais523> just that I have rose-tinted memories of it
11:52:24 <ais523> come to think of it, I probably considered bsmnt_bot ontopic
11:52:45 <Vorpal> ais523, are you talking about activity as number of lines said or number of persons saying stuff?
11:52:51 <ais523> oh heh, just came across Gregor's first visit to the channel, advertising FYB
11:52:57 <ais523> Vorpal: pretty much any plausible metric
11:53:04 <ais523> even absolute amount of ontopic conversation, possibly
11:53:04 <Vorpal> because elliott talks a lot (and so did I use to, I think I'm less active these days)
11:53:07 <ais523> (rather than proportion)
11:53:14 <fizzie> The number of "q" letters spoken.
11:53:25 <elliott> 08:28:34: <fizzie> why do you have those discussions at 05-06am?
11:53:25 <elliott> 08:39:28: <heatsink> I don't
11:53:25 <elliott> 08:44:29: <fizzie> 05:50:44 < heatsink> ooh, you do continuations too!
11:53:25 <elliott> 08:44:32: <fizzie> see, with proof.
11:53:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, you should do a new graph showing who spoke most during the last year or so
11:53:38 <fizzie> elliott: I hadn't heard of time zones yet.
11:53:59 <fizzie> It's now... but it's not now now somewhere else.
11:54:06 <fizzie> It's, like... not now. Now.
11:54:13 <elliott> Vorpal: I'd like to amend that request: fizzie: you should do a new graph showing me to be the top in whatever it is you're grapinh.
11:54:22 <fizzie> Also it could be yesterday or tomorrow now.
11:54:48 <elliott> 22:22:04: <lindi-> anybody thought about building a smart compiler that could optimize by replacing poor algorithms with better ones?
11:54:48 <elliott> 22:22:44: <lindi-> so if the programmer has used e.g. bubble sort the compiler would detect that and actually use quick sort
11:55:10 <elliott> sufficiently genius compiler
11:55:13 <Vorpal> isn't it always two dates on earth except in one specific instant?
11:55:25 <ais523> probably would be mostly useless, because it's easier to just use library sort rather than implement it yourself
11:55:31 <Vorpal> (per 24h period of course)
11:55:35 <ais523> Vorpal: no, sometimes it's three
11:55:38 <elliott> 22:31:20: <fizzie> not related, but mooz could perhaps say something here about his "random programs" experiments.
11:55:38 <elliott> 22:31:40: <fizzie> it's esoteric enough.
11:55:38 <elliott> 22:32:14: <fizzie> apparently he keeps finding composite-number-factoring algorithms at a surprisingly high rate. :p
11:55:42 <ais523> there are timezones that are more than 24 hours off UTC
11:55:42 <elliott> fizzie: do tell, eight years later
11:55:55 <Vorpal> ais523, then I guess there are always 2 or 3 ones then
11:55:58 <oklofok> maybe the compiler could identify pieces of code that seem to remake an stdlib algo and give a warning though
11:56:12 <Vorpal> ais523, also you mean 12 hours off?
11:56:17 <fizzie> ais523: I don't think there are; I mean, there are timezones with more than 24 hours difference between them, but...
11:56:31 -!- cheater has joined.
11:56:33 <elliott> oh, the channel turned 9 years old last month
11:56:45 <Vorpal> elliott, oh nice, and we completely missed the bday
11:56:53 <ais523> elliott: has it been logged from the start?
11:57:04 <ais523> fizzie: I thought there were
11:57:11 <ais523> oh, I must have meant more than 12
11:57:26 <elliott> EFNet #esoterica: 9 dec 2002; lament proposes OpenProjects 8 dec (?!); "OK, so now we can be found at OPN, #esoteric (it's ours!)." 9 dec
11:57:32 <Vorpal> anyway why more than 12 hours off? That is just silly
11:57:37 <elliott> oh -- 8 dec was in UTC-0800
11:57:46 <ais523> hmm, befunge.org was all the rage back in 2005
11:57:50 <elliott> fizzie: when are your early logs from, again?
11:57:51 <kmc> Vorpal, 'cause it sucks if your neighbors are on a different day from you
11:57:53 <ais523> and now it's been gone so long people can't even be bothered to squat it
11:58:04 <ais523> either that, or fizzie is hanging onto the domain but isn't using it for anything
11:58:07 <fizzie> Vorpal: It goes up to UTC+14 in one direction, but only UTC-12 the other.
11:58:16 <elliott> ais523: he noted it was going to be dropped in here
11:58:18 <fizzie> ais523: No, I let it expire.
11:58:43 <ais523> in that case, I'm shocked it isn't being squatted
11:58:50 <ais523> I thought expired domains got squatted forever just i ncase
11:58:51 <kmc> like the Chatham Islands are 45 minutes ahead of New Zealand rather than 23 hours 15 minutes behind
11:59:19 <ais523> fizzie: so /did/ you ever teach your girlfriend befunge?
11:59:36 <Vorpal> kmc, 45 minutes. So not even full hour steps...
11:59:42 <elliott> "Disagreed. In my way of thinking, scopes are static, and I/O is no more
11:59:42 <elliott> in violation of scopes than passing of parameters or other such phenomena."
11:59:43 <kmc> "As a British colony, Kiribati was centered in the Gilbert Islands, just west of the old date line. Upon independence in 1979, the new republic acquired the Phoenix and Line Islands from the United States and the country found itself straddling the date line. Government offices on opposite sides of the line could only communicate by radio or telephone on the four days of the week when both sides experienced weekdays simultaneously. A con
11:59:43 <kmc> sequence of this time zone revision was that Kiribati, by virtue of its easternmost territory, the Line Islands, including the inhabited Kiritimati island, started the year 2000 on its territory before any other country on earth, a feature which the Kiribati government capitalized upon as a potential tourist draw."
11:59:46 <fizzie> elliott: I don't recall when they are, and it's always such a chore to find them. There weren't very many days' worth of them.
11:59:52 <ais523> <Keymaker> languages that definitely should stay in wikipedia, are in my opinion the following: brainfuck, befunge, thue, malbolge, unlambda
11:59:53 <elliott> ais523: seems like esoteric discussion being off-topic dates back to the lists :P
12:00:14 <ais523> elliott: remember when we were discussing the list of top-stream esolangs?
12:00:30 <kmc> Vorpal, yeah, half-hour timezones are pretty common; 15 minute less so but there are some
12:00:35 <ais523> I think that's the same as our list, plus thue and malbolge, minus underload as it hadn't been invented yet
12:00:45 <elliott> fizzie: Well, there are about ~40 days from the founding of the channel to clog.
12:00:50 <ais523> also, whitespace, false and shakespeare were suggested in that conversation
12:01:10 <Vorpal> kmc, I want a 2.512 minute timezone.
12:01:25 <fizzie> ais523: Well, I've spoken about the topic quite a few times, but not so much that you could call it "teach".
12:01:26 <ais523> elliott: we were discussing a while back a list of esolangs that were best-known or most worthy of study
12:01:27 <Vorpal> (or any other similarly small offset)
12:01:33 <ais523> the classics of esolangs, as it were
12:01:41 <elliott> ais523: my list was brainfuck, intercal, unlambda, underload, malbolge, I think
12:02:00 <elliott> ais523: I'd add /// and BCT, personally
12:02:08 <elliott> even if it is more well-known than ///
12:02:10 <kmc> Vorpal, a few countries have declared their timezone to be centered on the capital
12:02:15 <oklofok> my list is toi, clue and oklotalk.
12:02:18 <kmc> leading to shit like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTC%2B04:51 and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTC%E2%88%9200:44
12:02:28 <ais523> oklofok: oklopol-clue, or keymaker-clue?
12:02:36 <oklofok> ais523: keymaker-clue obviously
12:02:42 <oklofok> oklopol-clue is just silly
12:02:42 <kmc> i've heard rumors of a Riyadh Mean Solar Time which adjusted every day based on sunrise in Riyadh
12:03:01 <kmc> one of the few timezones so fucked it's not in the tz database
12:04:13 <fizzie> elliott: "At 03:16 24/07/2001 -0500, Chris Pressey wrote: >Has anyone organized an esoteric IRC meeting place yet?" -- "Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 20:39:33 -0700 (MST) ... I hang out on EFNet when I am home, nick: calamari. But, I can also stay in undernet irc.undernet.org port 6667 channel #esolang"
12:04:22 <fizzie> I don't think I ever joined *that*, though.
12:04:46 <elliott> fizzie: I imagine he joined it just because of that message.
12:04:53 <elliott> And left the next time his IRC client restarted.
12:04:53 <Vorpal> kmc, I first read that as Rlyeh
12:05:55 <Vorpal> R'lyeh standard time. I wonder what that would be like
12:06:56 <fizzie> Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 12:39:12 +0300 (EEST), atehwa writes: "As for a real answer about _IRC_ channels, I think somebody founded a channel in DALnet."
12:07:41 <elliott> fizzie: I bet there's a flourishing esolangs community on some other network that we've just never heard of.
12:07:48 <oklofok> how do we know we're the real #esoteric and there's not one with 500 ppl on another network o_O
12:07:58 <elliott> it's practically guaranteed now.
12:08:18 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8834582/is-haskell-a-lisp-dialect
12:08:33 <elliott> someone actually voted that up
12:08:43 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esoteric_programming_languages#Internet_community "There is a mailing list, but it is nearly abandoned and most discussion happens on the wiki (see below) or on IRC." Perhaps *they* are the "on IRC" part of that.
12:09:54 <oklofok> "Turing completeness is a favorite topic of discussion, since it is not immediately obvious whether or not a language is Turing complete, and it often takes rather large intuitive leaps to come to a solution." is this really correct usage of "intuitive leap"?
12:10:16 <elliott> i have a feeling that article is very bad
12:10:26 <ais523> idea: esolang that's forward-polish, but not because it parses forward-polish, rather because it has a stack of functions
12:10:30 <oklofok> i was wondering if i'm just misunderstanding the sentence it fundamentally
12:10:51 <ais523> just like you do reverse-polish with a stack of values
12:11:00 <ais523> hmm, now I'm wondering if you could make it concatenative
12:11:02 <fizzie> Heh, in May 2008 the sentence read "There is a mailing list, but it is nearly abandoned and most discussion happens on the wiki (see below)."
12:11:04 <ais523> and thus a sort of dual to Underload
12:11:04 <oklofok> i guess it often does require some intuitive leaps: "well brainfuck can simulate itself so obv it's tc"
12:11:19 <oklofok> elliott: yes not just fundamentally but IT fundamentally
12:11:23 <ais523> oklofok: there are sub-TC languages that can simulate themselves
12:11:41 <oklofok> and you'd need quite an intuitive leap to prove it tc
12:11:49 <elliott> Chris, you're saying a lot of silly things in this mailing list archive. :/
12:11:51 <fizzie> Some "oerjan" dude has added the bit about IRC. I wonder if e means the five-thousand-person real community on NeverHeardNet, or this channel.
12:12:03 <elliott> fizzie: He's the spy sent to keep us in the dark.
12:12:04 -!- cheater has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
12:12:58 <oklofok> what if there's life outside earth? :O that would be even worse
12:13:09 <ais523> elliott: do you consider Ruby a Lisp dialect?
12:13:23 <elliott> ais523: all languages are lisp dialects, apart from scheme
12:13:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, I never seen a channel with 5000 persons in it except when I was watching a stress test of an ircd (using bots)
12:13:27 <elliott> scheme is a clojure dialect
12:14:08 <elliott> CAN SOMEONE PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME WHY SOMEBODY UPVOTED THAT QUESTION, CHRIST
12:14:41 <fizzie> Vorpal: Me neither, but maybe NeverHeardNet is much more popular. (On this side of the fence, Ubuntu seems to have 1507 people at the moment.)
12:14:43 <Vorpal> elliott, but clojure is a lisp dialect by those rules. So anything that is a clojure dialect is thus a lisp dialect
12:15:05 <oklofok> i've seen a channel where there was so much traffic that your messages appeared hours after you sent them.
12:15:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, yes #ubuntu and #gentoo were like the largest channels on here last I checked. Not sure if #gentoo is still as large
12:15:13 <oklofok> there were only 4 ppl there though
12:15:46 <fizzie> Vorpal: #ubuntu, #archlinux and #debian were the only ones in my LIST >1000 of a moment ago.
12:15:59 <fizzie> Still all Lunnux distrubtions.
12:16:16 <elliott> LIST supports queries like that?
12:16:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm I guess #ubuntu has grown, back when I checked it and #gentoo were about the same size (~950)
12:16:40 <Vorpal> and yes #archlinux is quite large
12:16:41 <fizzie> freenode? More like linuxnode, amirite?
12:16:51 <elliott> Vorpal: #gentoo is only 852.
12:17:07 <ais523> what's the second most popular linux distro?
12:17:20 <Vorpal> elliott, it used to be larger
12:17:23 <oklofok> it was on my irc server, my friend made this rpg and people spammed a few megabytes of commands there.
12:17:38 <fizzie> #pyt "NO LOL" hon has 923 people on it.
12:17:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, on which network?
12:18:02 <ais523> wow, the phone spambot that keeps contacting me seems to have hired a bunch of new voice actors
12:18:15 <ais523> unless it's two different spambots that just happen to use the same script
12:18:41 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yes, I wanted a "firstname 'nickname' lastname" format, so had to split.
12:18:49 <Vorpal> ais523, you get spam over your phone? ouch
12:18:57 <ais523> oh right, did the wire-crossing problem ever turn out to be meaningful?
12:19:16 <ais523> I was interested in it when I got into esolangs, and invented EL1 and Formula
12:19:21 <elliott> fizzie: #pyt"NO LOL"hon is the best way to do that.
12:19:31 <elliott> fizzie: Or #python "NO LOL" #python.
12:19:38 <Vorpal> #python 923 NO LOL | NO PROJECT EULER | [...]
12:19:45 <Vorpal> why do they hate project euler?
12:19:53 <fizzie> With that many people, you have to rule with an IRON FIST.
12:20:18 <elliott> lol can some1 help me with project euler #1
12:20:30 -!- ais523 has set topic: "NO LOL | NO PROJECT EULER" | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
12:20:58 <Vorpal> elliott, wth is up with the blank lines?
12:21:24 -!- oklofok has changed nick to oklopol.
12:21:33 <ais523> <fungebob> cpressey: ever consider a timecube esolang?
12:21:57 <oklopol> elliott: what's the question?
12:22:03 <ais523> <fungebot> Hello tobegnuf:
12:22:08 <elliott> http://projecteuler.net/problem=1
12:22:14 <ais523> ah, fungot's long-lost distant relative
12:22:16 <fungot> ais523: mrs randzio-plath asks whether the authority will provide this. as an auxiliary language, it can make a formal proposal that, however, the most important, namely how to determine which groups are covered by the text, as you have pointed out, that there is scope to use lower interest rates: long-term interest rates in 1994 because in 1993 the commission adopted the draft directive for the third year in succession, the ve
12:22:29 <elliott> ais523: fungot isn't the first funge-98 bot?
12:22:30 <fungot> elliott: mr president, at a time when this house's declarations of goodwill are reflected in salaries and in professional life, and i can assure you that we have to provide more substantial financial and other intermediaries are already well behind schedule: it is not work that could be, and is presenting a new directive to the mining of metal fnord. upon my refusal, the perspectives have not been implemented for twenty years n
12:22:37 <ais523> 00:09:38: <fungebot> Hello xij
12:22:40 <oklopol> "<nosklo> John: I can't reproduce the problem, and I don't see where the memory could be leaking" he's trying to REPRODUCE a problem he already solved :o pythonists are crazy!
12:22:45 <ais523> elliott: it's unclear whether fungebot was -98 or -93
12:23:28 <oklopol> if i solve a problem i immediately start running to keep my state of blissful thinking i did it rightness.
12:23:56 <fizzie> Perhaps it's a time-traveling fungot.
12:23:57 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, i would like to say, i support the amendments that we tabled and opens the way to resolve the armenia embargo and border issue. lastly, the commission is obliged to support the amendments made to mr jarzembowski.
12:23:57 <Vorpal> ais523, hm when was that funge bot from?
12:24:21 <ais523> already gone way past that page
12:24:22 <elliott> "I've been reading The Haskell Road to Logic, Maths and Programming by Doets and Eijck 2004. It seems to be a well respected book, but I was struck when it claims that Haskell is a member of the Lisp family. Would anyone else agree with that? I would characterise Lisps with s-expressions, impure functions, and lists as the only composite data structure. Haskell has none of that. What do you think?"
12:24:24 <Vorpal> that doesn't echo to the channel
12:24:24 <elliott> I disagree, but what was the argument the authors gave? – Tobu Jan 14 '11 at 22:24
12:24:32 <elliott> None! They are giving a general introduction and say 'as a functional language, Haskell is part of the Lisp family along with ML, Occam and Clean'. – Bob Bobson Jan 14 '11 at 22:29
12:24:32 <Vorpal> ais523, and did it use netcat or SOCK? And can anyone find the source?
12:24:39 <elliott> ais523: did you remember to use -i?
12:24:42 <HackEgo> 2005-07-19.txt:00:14:18: <fungebot> Hello }^nevaR^{
12:24:44 <ais523> hmm, it's going to take me a while to check every mention of befunge in the channel ever
12:24:48 <HackEgo> 2005-07-19.txt:00:14:18: <fungebot> Hello }^nevaR^{
12:24:51 -!- elliott has changed nick to }^nevaR^{.
12:25:02 <Vorpal> ais523, do you know who made it?
12:25:04 <fizzie> ais523: By a curious coincidence, my logs don't show a "fungebot" at all. It must've been during one of my periodic absences from the channel.
12:25:21 <fizzie> To think, that I missed a fungebot. :/
12:25:22 <oklopol> }^nevaR^{: you never asked #python for help with your problem
12:25:26 <}^nevaR^{> fizzie: You weren't around much circa 2005, were you?
12:25:48 -!- cheater has joined.
12:25:51 <ais523> a nickping sometimes works
12:25:55 <ais523> and a /msg sometimes works if a nickping doesn't
12:26:07 <Vorpal> jix: hi! Do you have any info on that fungebot from 2005? Was it in befunge-93 or funge-98? And do you still have the source?
12:26:38 <oklopol> jix tried to do something with thue once and failed. i don't recall what.
12:26:59 <ais523> 00:36:55: <GregorR-W> Could you write this exact line to this channel?
12:27:00 <ais523> 00:37:46: <Wildhalcyon> Could I write what exact line to this channel?
12:27:11 <ais523> the joys of IRP quines
12:27:21 <oklopol> it was back when that was not trivial
12:27:32 <fizzie> }^nevaR^{: I have missing months of 2003-06, 2003-08, 2005-09, 2006-04, 2007-04, 2007-10, 2008-01 and 2008-02. On all other months (since 2002-12) I've been on-channel at least once during the month.
12:28:01 <}^nevaR^{> ais523: impressively, that is-haskell-a-lisp question is a /duplicate/
12:28:19 <}^nevaR^{> fizzie: How many days out of the total days the channel has existed have you been present? Percentage-wise.
12:28:28 <ais523> well, for any arbitrary language you only just heard of, it makes sense to ask if it's a lisp variant
12:28:29 <}^nevaR^{> fizzie: I need to calculate how aggressively to request your logs from you.
12:28:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, I thought you used a bouncer?
12:28:42 <ais523> it's only a stupid question if you already know the answer
12:28:50 <}^nevaR^{> ais523: the other one was going based on a /haskell book/ claiming it was a lisp dialect
12:28:52 <fizzie> oklopol: In 2003-06 I probably was "working" (civil service) in Vankeinhoidon koulutuskeskus, if that counts.
12:28:56 <Vorpal> -fizzie- VERSION bip-0.8.2
12:28:57 <Vorpal> -fizzie- VERSION xchat 2.8.8 Linux 2.6.35-31-generic [x86_64/2.00GHz/SMP]
12:28:57 <Vorpal> -fizzie- VERSION irssi v0.8.15
12:29:16 <oklopol> that counts to fucking million.
12:29:24 <fizzie> Vorpal: Nowadays; but only since 2009-03; before that, irssi.
12:29:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, bip is a bouncer is it?
12:29:43 <ais523> oklopol: could you translate for the non-finns in the audience?
12:29:52 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yes. (Not that I had a disconnection habit with the irssi connection either.)
12:29:58 <oklopol> education center for taking care of prisoners.
12:30:20 <oklopol> i don't quite understand what it means so that's the best i can do.
12:30:22 <fizzie> It's been renamed to Rikosseuraamusalan koulutuskeskus now, anyway.
12:30:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, what is it for?
12:30:35 <oklopol> not sure how you educate taking care of prisoners
12:30:35 <fizzie> "The Training Institute for Prison and Probation Services" is the official translation.
12:30:36 <ais523> fizzie: so were you sent there as a punishment?
12:30:49 <}^nevaR^{> ais523: punishment for being finnish
12:30:52 -!- Patashu has quit (Quit: MSN: Patashu@hotmail.com , Gmail: Patashu0@gmail.com , AIM: Patashu0 , YIM: patashu2 , Skype: patashu0 .).
12:30:58 <fizzie> ais523: Civil service; it's an alternative for the regular compulsory military service.
12:31:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, you still have conscription?
12:31:08 <oklopol> punishment for being a latent rapist
12:31:29 <ais523> oklopol: I don't know, females are convicted of rape sometimes
12:31:31 <ais523> although much more rarely
12:31:40 <fizzie> I mostly just fiddled with PageMaker; they publish books (sometimes by prisoners, but also textbooks on their field, and a yearly "newsletter" thing).
12:31:41 <ais523> (typically the sort that involves drugs rather than physical violence)
12:32:05 <ais523> oh right, INTERCAL's EOF handling is hilarious
12:32:08 <oklopol> "you CHEATED on me?" "no i was raped!"
12:32:15 <ais523> (it crashes on EOF, with no way to catch the error or seeing it's coming)
12:32:38 <Vorpal> ais523, so what do people normally do to avoid this?
12:32:38 <fizzie> Vorpal: We do, yes, unless you invent a proper excuse.
12:32:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, like medical reasons?
12:33:09 <ais523> nothing you /can/ do about it
12:33:15 -!- }^nevaR^{ has quit (Quit: Leaving).
12:33:24 <Vorpal> ais523, is this for c-intercal or clc-intercal?
12:33:29 <oklopol> you can do a lot of things. unless you're a perfectly healthy male.
12:33:35 <ais523> although it'd be fun to implement some way to catch the error
12:33:54 <fizzie> Vorpal: Medical, psychological, religious, or moral. (But the latter one will get you thrown in jail as a "conscientious objector" if you also refuse the non-military alternative.)
12:33:55 <Vorpal> ais523, I assume neither ick nor clc crashes?
12:34:11 <ais523> sure they do, it'd be incompatible otherwise
12:34:20 <ais523> you can't not implement the spec
12:34:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, pretty easy to join a suitable religion like a year before or such
12:34:47 <Vorpal> and then leave it a bit later
12:35:02 <fizzie> Vorpal: I'm not sure if there are any recognized religions that'd forbid the civil service part.
12:35:16 <fizzie> I mean, it's a weird thing to forbid.
12:35:27 <Vorpal> ais523, hm, is that starwars related?
12:35:39 <ais523> non-military civil service isn't something I'd object to anyway, though, although I would object to the military version
12:35:45 <ais523> Vorpal: yes, originally
12:35:52 <ais523> it's a reference to the jedi census phenomenon
12:35:52 <oklopol> jehova's witnesses are exempt from all afaiu?
12:36:04 <ais523> where there was a worldwide movement to claim to be a jedi on censuses
12:36:12 <ais523> with the result that many countries ended up recognising it as a religion
12:36:37 <ais523> (there's at least one court case where someone successfully claimed that their jedi religion forbade them from doing something that would otherwise be mandatory, too)
12:36:41 <ais523> Vorpal: that was the whole /point/
12:36:54 <Vorpal> ais523, I'm just a bit scared that it worked
12:37:15 <fizzie> oklopol: I think they are, yes. Also people living in Åland.
12:37:40 <ais523> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedi_census_phenomenon
12:38:03 <ais523> ah, apparently no /official/ recognition; jediism was assigned a convenience number on the census processing thing because it was so popular
12:38:10 <ais523> but that was apparently only to make statistics easier or something
12:38:50 <Vorpal> ais523, do UK still do censuses? Sweden doesn't any more
12:38:52 <ais523> <wikipedia> In Scotland 14,052 people stated that Jedi was their current religion (14,014 "Jedi", 24 "Jedi Order" and 14 "Sith")
12:38:56 <ais523> Vorpal: yes, but rarely
12:39:00 <ais523> it's something like once every ten years
12:39:32 <fizzie> There are 70-80 people who refuse both the military and the civil service; Amnesty classifies them as "prisoners of conscience", which bumps up Finland's "score" on that considerably. Otherwise we'd totally lose to all kinds of regimes.
12:39:39 <fizzie> 70-80 people per year, that is.
12:39:52 <oklopol> i've only encountered censuses in complexity theory
12:40:00 <ais523> <wikipedia> In 2009, a Jedi was banned from a Tesco Supermarket in Bangor, North Wales, for refusing to remove his hood on a religious basis. The following year, a Jedi was thrown out of a Jobcentre in Southend, Essex, for refusing to remove his hood; he later received an apology.
12:40:27 <ais523> fizzie: I wonder why they do that
12:40:39 <ais523> seems a weird thing to make that heavy a stand about
12:40:58 <fizzie> ais523: For many it's an official protest against the length of the civil service; it's about double the most common length for the military one.
12:40:58 <oklopol> not wanting to waste a year of your life is stupid now?
12:41:09 <fizzie> ais523: "Conscientious objectors to military service continued to be imprisoned for refusing the alternative civilian service due to its punitive and discriminatory length. The length of alternative civilian service remained at 362 days, more than double the most common military service period of 180 days."
12:41:19 <ais523> oklopol: aren't you still wasting it, just in jail?
12:41:25 <fizzie> The jail term is shorter.
12:41:30 <oklopol> ais523: less of it, and there's more freedom
12:41:38 <fizzie> Two days of civil service translate to one day of jail.
12:42:08 <fizzie> And with a very few exceptions they are in these "open prisons".
12:42:12 <fizzie> So you can study and whatever.
12:42:33 <Vorpal> ais523, I would answer sith on such a question btw.
12:42:48 <oklopol> and more importantly, you don't have to do meaningless work
12:42:53 <oklopol> like taking care of old people
12:42:57 <Vorpal> ais523, sure, why not?
12:43:09 <oklopol> or learning to kill healthy people
12:43:25 <ais523> fizzie: clearly the appropriate punishment should be community service, not a prison term
12:43:26 <Vorpal> ais523, it is not like religion should be listed on a census form anyway
12:43:36 <oklopol> well the latter is not useless if you want to become a serial killer
12:43:50 <fizzie> oklopol: I know quite a few people who've just done research at the university where they were studying "around" the civil service term.
12:43:55 <ais523> why would they teach that?
12:44:13 <oklopol> what do you mean "around"?
12:44:18 <fizzie> oklopol: Before, and after.
12:44:23 <oklopol> do you know what armies are for?
12:44:31 <ais523> forgot about the army option
12:44:38 <ais523> my mind excluded it as an option that nobody sane would take
12:44:47 <oklopol> oh. no not in the civil service
12:44:58 <fizzie> ais523: Some do civil service for six months which would match the military service, and then refuse; their remaining six months are then translated to a three-month prison term.
12:45:16 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: The Other Game).
12:45:26 <ais523> fizzie: it's almost as if people are being tempted to break the law, if there's an exchange rate for it
12:45:35 <ais523> what about alternating days of civil service and prison?
12:45:46 <oklopol> i've always wanted to try prison out anyway but i don't actually want to commit a crime.
12:45:49 <fizzie> You can't go back from the prison to civil service.
12:45:52 <Vorpal> "If Jedi were counted it would have been the second largest religion in New Zealand. T"
12:46:23 <fizzie> There's a one-month common "training period" for the civil service, but I don't think it was much about killing. I mostly learned that some people do crazy things (aluminium foil wrapped beer-potatoes?) on a campfire.
12:46:32 <fizzie> It might be slightly different during the wintertime.
12:46:44 <fizzie> Oh, I think there was also some CPR training maybe?
12:46:58 <fizzie> I got a free tea+pastry coupon for maintaining Darkhive.
12:47:07 <fizzie> Managed to describe it as a cultural act.
12:47:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, darkhive being?
12:48:43 <ais523> 2006-04-28 22:18:55: <kate`> a funge would suit an irc bot well, i suspect
12:49:30 <jix> Vorpal: I don't have anything about fungebot anymore (and I don't remember working with it)
12:49:31 <lambdabot> jix: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
12:49:32 <fizzie> Vorpal: Uh. There was this Finnish magazine called Demi, core audience teenage girls (13-19 years); they had (well, have) a web forum, which didn't have a search system and expired old threads; Darkhive crawled the site periodically and archived the messages.
12:49:46 <Vorpal> jix, ais523 claimed you were the author
12:50:06 <ais523> jix: well, it was only up there for a day, I assume you've just forgotten about it
12:50:18 <ais523> or, hmm, maybe it was someone else
12:50:36 <HackEgo> 2005-07-19.txt:00:14:18: <fungebot> Hello }^nevaR^{
12:50:53 -!- elliott has joined.
12:50:55 <elliott> http://www.cs.uit.no/~daniels/PingTunnel/
12:50:56 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.5540
12:50:59 <Vorpal> wasn't that the command?
12:51:06 <elliott> Ptunnel is an application that allows you to reliably tunnel TCP connections to a remote host using ICMP echo request and reply packets, commonly known as ping requests and replies.
12:51:07 <jix> I was never fluent in befunge... but I think I did some experiments with other esolangs and irc that never got anywhere
12:51:11 <ais523> 00:06:08: <jix> i wrote a crappy ping less sub-minmal befunge irc bot that prints hello msgs with the nick reversed...
12:51:21 <ais523> unless it's a different jix, it was you
12:51:29 <fizzie> Vorpal: It gained some amounts of popularity among the users, possibly because it also did not remove messages the official board admins deleted for "unsuitable content".
12:51:43 <jix> ais523: oh then I probably did...
12:52:06 <jix> but I never did anything that would remotely qualify as a complete irc bot
12:52:06 <elliott> fizzie: Now you gotta tell us why on earth you decided to write that.
12:52:16 <fizzie> elliott: Also http://thomer.com/icmptx/
12:52:16 <ais523> elliott: kerio is a fan of tunnelling all sorts of things over DNS
12:52:21 <ais523> jix: don't worry, fungebot wouldn't
12:53:03 <fizzie> (ICMPTX and NSTX are I think related.)
12:53:17 <elliott> fizzie: That guy has written a lot of freeloader internet-tunneling tools. :p
12:53:31 <fizzie> elliott: His mission in life is to mooch for free stuffs, I suppose.
12:53:33 <elliott> Oh, he didn't write that one.
12:53:58 <fizzie> Ah, it's stolen. Well, in any case.
12:54:04 <elliott> fizzie: You can't dodge my question!!!
12:54:30 <ais523> the depressing thing is, there's almost certainly a way to tunnel HTTP over HTTP already
12:54:44 <fizzie> elliott: It's just that I don't quite recall the motivations. I'm supposing some IRC people were somehow involved.
12:55:03 <ais523> you know what we need? another esolang competition
12:55:08 <ais523> with a reasonable number of people actually participating
12:55:40 <Vorpal> ais523, that last point might be hard
12:55:55 <Vorpal> ais523, btw when are the results of IOCCC going to be announced?
12:55:55 <fizzie> Vorpal: I got a cease-and-desist from the magazine editor finally; didn't think it was worth a fight so I took the site down. Some random guy at WaveU asked me for the database dump, though, and ran it for a while longer.
12:55:58 <ais523> 6 or so would be reasonable enough
12:56:15 <elliott> fizzie: I will accept a blatant but interesting lie, e.g. "Finnish demosceners used to use it to chat ironically".
12:57:11 <ais523> but not exactly that one, as it wouldn't be interesting now it's been mentioned
12:57:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, if it was on irc you could search your logs?
12:57:52 <elliott> ais523: how implausible is it that I would guess the precise truth?
12:57:58 <elliott> even if it isn't actually true
12:59:05 <ais523> elliott: it'd be obviously a lie, though
12:59:12 <ais523> as well as just being blatant
12:59:16 <fizzie> Vorpal: I guess I could look for the first mention, but I'm not even sure where in IRC it would be.
13:00:29 <fizzie> elliott: I think "Finnish <justsomepeople> used to use it to chat ironically" is quite close to the truth, actually.
13:01:31 <elliott> fizzie: See, I can pretend to believe you now!
13:02:15 <fizzie> elliott: Heh; from !assembly, paraphrasing: "[2005-08-05 19:20:37] <fizzie> The demi.fi folks are quite the sceners: darkhive=# select sum(msgs) from dh_thre where tname ilike '%assembly%'; => 473"
13:02:26 <fizzie> (I asked for first mention separately per-channel.)
13:02:51 <fizzie> Anyway, 473 messages containing the substring "assembly".
13:04:28 <fizzie> I think these logs are too new.
13:05:14 <fizzie> Hey, someone donated me money because of it.
13:06:35 <fizzie> elliott: Oh, oh oh! I might have just continued from "demikhat".
13:06:49 <fizzie> elliott: See, uh... this is also a bit complicated to explain.
13:08:12 <fizzie> elliott: They had this flash-based "isometric 3D" chat thing there (before the web forum times); think "Habbo Hotel" or such, except much more limited. I was bored one day, so I packet-sniffed that, reverse-engineered the protocol (it was a custom ASCII-based one) and wrote a "roguelike" client which let you chat there and IIRC do a couple of things the official interface couldn't.
13:08:46 <elliott> fizzie: You're a strange person.
13:09:17 <fizzie> They also had another real-time "text chat" which was actually run over the IRC server of the web-media company that made the pages; I also hung out there with an IRC client and sort-of got to know some of the folks behind the scenes.
13:09:29 <fizzie> I'm not quite sure of the chronology of all these different forums and chats and such.
13:09:44 <elliott> How did you even come to look at anything related to this magazine?
13:10:04 <fizzie> They had another web-forum that Darkhive didn't crawl. (Though I made a 'wget' dump of it scant few days before they wiped it out and started the new forum which Darkhive did index.)
13:10:16 <fizzie> Actually come to think of it, that dump might have been the inspiration for Darkhive itself.
13:10:24 <fizzie> So you can blame whoever asked me to do it.
13:11:11 <fizzie> Wow, I had so forgotten about this.
13:11:56 <fizzie> Apparently at the civil service training we used the instructor's laptop/projector to watch how Darkhive updated itself, and read some threads using the psql command-line tool.
13:12:07 <fizzie> And after that I got the free-tea voucher.
13:12:46 <elliott> fizzie: I don't understand Finland.
13:12:57 <fizzie> It's not as strange as e.g. Japan.
13:13:01 <fizzie> Or so I have been led to believe.
13:14:15 <fizzie> Sadly, I never finished my other "chat archive" project.
13:14:27 <fizzie> (That would've been called "sharkhive".)
13:14:44 <fizzie> It wasn't related to the Demi chats, incidentally.
13:14:58 <elliott> Oh, what was it going to archive, then?
13:15:40 <elliott> ais523: you might enjoy this: http://www.bbctvlicence.com/Please%20do%20not%20write%20below%20the%20line.htm
13:15:43 <fizzie> See, there's this midday/midnight SMS-based TV channel chats, they're really horrible. There's some horrible person as a presenter, and then people send all kinds of stupid things in. Really stupid things. And each message costs like real money, but they still keep doing it.
13:15:48 <elliott> it reminds me of those train routeing letters
13:15:58 <fizzie> I was thinking, I had this analog TV receiver card, I could've OCR'd and archived those.
13:16:00 <elliott> fizzie: Ohh, yes, I know what you mean.
13:17:35 <ais523> elliott: obvious conclusion is that it's to present people writing below the line before the letters are sent
13:17:42 <fizzie> I think it would've mostly worked. At least for the digital TV stream, that's significantly less noisy (if a bit compression-artifacty). It's got a particular font and everything.
13:18:33 <elliott> fizzie: You should archive...
13:18:48 <elliott> fizzie: Uh, do/did (when you had analogue television) you people have a teletext-style thing?
13:19:45 <fizzie> I think the system still exists.
13:20:07 <fizzie> http://www.yle.fi/tekstitv/html/P100_01.html
13:20:08 <elliott> fizzie: Those tend to have vaguely "user-generated" pages.
13:20:12 <fizzie> You can read it in the interwebs.
13:20:21 <elliott> fizzie: Actually you should just archive the whole thing, that would be simplest.
13:20:35 <fizzie> I think it was discussed.
13:20:57 <elliott> Okay, but pretend that doesn't exist and do it with a receiver card instead. :p
13:21:25 <fizzie> Only the top half of double-height numbers are hyperlinked, unless I'm mispointing.
13:21:38 <ais523> hmm, the "music industry" (not sure what group in particular, and I'm annoyed at the vagueness of the story) are apparently suing Ireland for not making file sharing sufficiently illegal
13:22:35 <elliott> fizzie: It even hyperlinks URLs, e.g. http://www.yle.fi/tekstitv/html/P101_01.html.
13:22:58 <Vorpal> speaking of storing chats, I wonder if anyone is recording /b/ and such, iirc 4chan expires old messages?
13:23:11 <Vorpal> I hope no one is archiving /b/...
13:23:21 <Sgeo> Would take a lot of space, probably
13:23:33 <Sgeo> I've seen archives of individual threads
13:23:33 <fizzie> elliott: So it seems; but on the front page, 100, the big numbers (the four headlines, like "107 Urpilainen: ...") seem to have only their top halves clickable.
13:24:33 <elliott> fizzie: I suspect the linking may be automated somehow.
13:24:41 <elliott> Vorpal: http://4chanarchive.org/
13:25:02 <ais523> elliott: it almost certainly also has NSFW content
13:25:16 <elliott> ais523: That too, presumably.
13:25:28 <ais523> I guess you could find a SFW subset of 4chan, but it'd be mostly missing the point
13:26:16 <elliott> Oh, "update May, 7th: we take no more new archival requests. please visit chanarchive.org instead.".
13:26:18 <elliott> http://chanarchive.org/welcome It's all Web 2.0.
13:27:14 <fizzie> ais523: The local "Copyright Information & Anti-Piracy Centre" sued one of our ISPs (and cases for two others are pending), and the lowest court agreed and told the ISP to "block PirateBay", or suffer a nice hundred thousand euro fine; recently the "enforcement unit" of the court came up with a long list of DNS names and three IP addresses for the ISP to block. They've complained to the higher court, but just few days ago "temporarily" enabled the block
13:27:14 <fizzie> s while that case is pending.
13:27:24 <fizzie> ais523: There's quite a debate going on about this.
13:27:40 <ais523> fizzie: yes; I was mostly interested because they'd sued a country rather than an ISP
13:27:41 <fizzie> ais523: Including a bomb threat to the office of the "Anti-Piracy Centre" and so on.
13:28:24 <elliott> fizzie: Is that what Finns call a debate?
13:28:56 <fizzie> elliott: The bomb threat was by "Anonymous Finland". :p
13:29:11 <ais523> there are almost certainly multiple Anonymouses
13:29:25 <ais523> with a name like that, and their alleged structure, more than one could exist quite easily without anyone noticing
13:29:30 <ais523> including the organizations themselves
13:29:40 <fizzie> ais523: Well *this* one owns a Twitter account "anon_finland", it's certainly very legit.
13:30:00 <elliott> fizzie: I'm sure it was a very credible threat.
13:30:53 <fizzie> "thepiratebay.org, www.thepiratebay.org, depiraatbaai.be, www.depiraatbaai.be, piratebay.am, www.piratebay.am, piratebay.net, www.piratebay.net, www.piratebay.no, piratebay.no, piratebay.se, www.piratebay.se, suprnova.com, www.suprnova.com, themusicbay.com, www.themusicbay.com, themusicbay.net, www.themusicbay.net, themusicbay.org, www.themusicbay.org, thepiratebay.am,www.thepiratebay.am, www.thepiratebay.com, thepiratebay.com, thepiratebay.gl, www.thep
13:30:53 <fizzie> iratebay.gl, thepiratebay.net, www.thepiratebay.net, www.thepiratebay.se, thepiratebay.se, thepiratebay.org.nyud.net"
13:30:58 <elliott> fizzie: "The LulzSleigh's taking off! Expect us. And don't miss us: someday, We'll come back (:" RIP anon_finland ages ago -- 2 hours ago
13:30:59 <fizzie> That's the list of DNS names they want removed.
13:31:01 <elliott> thepiratebay.org.nyud.net <-- LOL
13:31:17 <elliott> The best part is, I doubt you can even /search/ with that one.
13:31:32 <fizzie> And also "194.71.107.15, 194.71.107.19, 194.71.107.18" for any traffic, which I guess does slightly more.
13:31:37 <ais523> I've heard of it but can't remember why
13:31:44 <elliott> ais523: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coral_Content_Distribution_Network
13:31:48 <elliott> The Coral Content Distribution Network, sometimes called Coral Cache or Coral, is a free peer-to-peer content distribution network designed and operated by Michael Freedman. Coral uses the bandwidth of a world-wide network of web proxies and nameservers to mirror web content, often to avoid the Slashdot Effect or to reduce the general load on websites servers in general.
13:33:18 <fizzie> Heh, "piraattilahti.fi" (the literal translation of "piratebay") goes to EFFI's (the "Finnish EFF") webpage.
13:34:53 <fizzie> Heh, it was actually originally on that list.
13:35:13 <fizzie> There's an update from yesterday that they have removed the "piraattilahti.fi" block.
13:35:28 <fizzie> Presumably whoever owns the domain will again point it at Pirate Bay, and they'll add it back, and GOTO 10.
13:35:34 <elliott> fizzie: http://www.effi.org/ -- try google-translating it from finnish to english and read the first sentence.
13:35:39 <elliott> (Right click -> translate in Chrome.)
13:36:55 <elliott> fizzie: So how's the weather in Helsinki, Ireland today?
13:37:22 <fizzie> I mean, the original text just says "Electronic Frontier Finland ry ...", and 'ry' is basically "registered association".
13:37:41 <fizzie> If you just type "Electronic Frontier Finland" and ask for a Finnish -> English translation, it goes "The Electronic Frontier Ireland".
13:37:49 <elliott> fizzie: Statistical translation, presumably.
13:37:53 <fizzie> Apparently fi:Finland equals en:Ireland, then.
13:38:04 <elliott> fizzie: Things like country names tend to get mixed up.
13:38:05 <fizzie> Admittedly "Finland" isn't Finnish.
13:38:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, it s Soumi isn't it?
13:38:24 <elliott> I think it's because e.g. a Finnish document talking about Finland might match up with an English document talking about the UK.
13:38:28 <Vorpal> or something like that
13:38:28 <elliott> I don't really know how it works.
13:38:31 <elliott> But that's what I've heard.
13:38:46 <elliott> fizzie probably knows more, since speech recognition is, like, vaguely related, and about twice as unreliable. :p
13:38:55 <Vorpal> elliott, also inches vs. centimeters
13:39:01 <Vorpal> that gets messed up badly too
13:39:03 <fizzie> There was some other Google Translate "lul" related to gay Swedes, but I don't recall how it went.
13:39:04 <Deewiant> "Irlanti" is pretty close to "Finland", I guess.
13:39:43 <Vorpal> elliott, also I have seen it insert extra negations that completely changed the meaning of the sentence. :D
13:40:08 <elliott> fizzie "cunningly dodged" my speech recognition remark.
13:40:13 <HackEgo> åldolskeimmart säcklaansar psymmästa tiuminärpäsidornotkelvä dopatsansa ontusensatsenning rat anarre vid vesidorketsovånga hittu utadierna lähiöllämtnin kava mystele roillnadalm baskanaruttavlar uusioniser sydasmerkiltäng uppromerkkl uhoidkarist kn ahdottaga käläisig nyrper
13:40:25 <Vorpal> kallisti, none of them looks Swedish at all
13:40:32 <fizzie> Also I don't know about Google Translate so much; but I suppose they do some "proactive" training-text acquisition, since there aren't so many actual good-quality parallel Finnish/English corpora; Europarl, of course, but still.
13:40:41 <Vorpal> Deewiant, oh right, missed that word
13:40:45 <Vorpal> apart from that though
13:41:25 <fizzie> Aren't many Finnish-looking words either. "hittu" could be.
13:41:32 <elliott> fizzie: Europarl is good for translating "Mr. President".
13:42:00 <HackEgo> matushovina jalailevakin tontumissasi uneeksesi syventävikseen aampiansa tyhjenemassamme erivaan alustamaksena ajamuissasi aihtyvilta liukkaama hälyttömimmaksee näppäivyttävista kapisimpia
13:42:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, I think psymmästa looks finnish
13:42:26 <Vorpal> Deewiant, what does vowel harmony entail?
13:42:29 <fizzie> The all-purpose refusal.
13:42:40 <Deewiant> Vorpal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vowel_harmony#Finnish
13:43:03 <fizzie> You could've just said "no [uoa] or [yöä] in the same word".
13:43:10 <fizzie> It's shorter than the link. :p
13:43:15 <elliott> Do you have to pass, like, a gruelling five-hour test of vowel harmony to gain Finnish citizenship?
13:43:19 <Deewiant> But that requires typing, not copy-pasting.
13:43:38 <Deewiant> Anyway, I was /going/ to give a longer explanation including stuff about foreign imports and compound words but SCREW IT THEN.
13:43:54 <elliott> "Päuikkä" "Yes!" "Paaäaia" "No!" "Kapisimpia" "Yes!" "Syventävikseean" "Yes! -- NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO"
13:44:11 <Vorpal> Deewiant, yeah a bit tricky for compound words and imported words I imagine
13:44:19 <fizzie> "Päuikkä" is not a "Yes!".
13:44:54 <elliott> fizzie: What, how does that break vowel harmony, I spent like 3 seconds trying to understand vowel harmony so I don't see how I could possibly be wrong.
13:45:15 <fizzie> Yeah, my short explanation should've probably said "and" instead of "or". :p
13:45:40 <elliott> fizzie: I was going solely based on "no a and ä" that yous aid once. :p
13:45:54 <elliott> Anyway, EVEN THE EXAMINER MAKES MISTAKES SOMETIMES.
13:46:40 <Deewiant> In practice the rule is usually equivalent to "if a native speaker can't pronounce it easily, it fails vowel harmony"
13:47:07 <Vorpal> Deewiant, so you say "oland" for "åland"?
13:47:08 <elliott> Oh, "å" actually occurs in Finnish?
13:47:28 <ais523> what's the point of a letter that isn't in any words?
13:47:28 <Vorpal> elliott, they have it in Åland afaik, unless they use a different name for that
13:47:35 <ais523> to confuse the alphabet?
13:47:35 <Deewiant> Vorpal: "ooland" and "åland" would be pronounced the same.
13:47:45 <Vorpal> ais523, å is used in Swedish so I guess that is why?
13:48:02 <Deewiant> ais523: It's something that stayed from Swedish, and is only used in Swedish names.
13:49:13 <fizzie> Vorpal: Anyway we say Åland much like you say Åland; it's just that your 'å' is like IPA /o:/ pretty much, and therefore much like our 'o'.
13:49:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about our o? Do you have that
13:50:30 <fizzie> I think that's IPA ʉ which we don't quite have? But that's just going by my knowledge of Swedish pronunciation, which is rather vague.
13:50:43 <fizzie> Don't you have some context-sensitivity going on there?
13:50:58 <fizzie> Finnish mostly has a context-free mapping from lexemes to phonemes.
13:51:12 <Vorpal> well there is a lot of stuff that depends on context in Swedish
13:51:23 <Vorpal> like double consonant after a vowel modifies it and so on
13:51:39 <Vorpal> (and that is the only place where you can put two of the same consonant pretty much)
13:52:03 <Deewiant> Swedish o is also context-sensitive.
13:52:26 <Vorpal> Deewiant, I believe /ever/ vowel can be modified by at least single/double consonant after it
13:52:38 <fizzie> Yes, I suppose 'bot' and 'bott' have quite a different 'o' in them?
13:52:46 <Deewiant> Swedish is a quite vowel-tricky language.
13:53:40 <Vorpal> also we have various other things going on. Like the sj-sound
13:53:44 <fizzie> Swedish-speaking Finns for the most part probably just approximate it.
13:53:54 <Vorpal> also stj and various other variants
13:56:36 <Vorpal> Sgeo, uh "the cure another"?
13:56:37 <Sgeo> Oh, it's Boten Anna
13:56:49 <Vorpal> still "The cure Anna" (where Anna is a name)
13:57:00 <Vorpal> (but that is not what it refers to)
13:57:13 <Sgeo> I saw bott, and thought of the song Boten Anna
13:57:26 <fizzie> Much like I couldn't really do all the seven Russian fricatives that are all more or less "s" (or "z") in Finnish. (с, ш, щ, з, ж, ч, ц -- esp. ш/щ., IIRC.)
13:57:41 <Sgeo> And in whatever language "Boten Anna" is, it's supposed to mean Anna the Bot, I think
13:57:55 <Sgeo> So I think it's a different language from whatever you're talking about
13:58:00 <fizzie> "NO NO IT'S ABOUT A BOAT LOL"
13:58:06 <Deewiant> Sgeo: Thank you for your insightful commentary.
13:58:13 <Vorpal> Sgeo, I don't think bott exists as a Swedish word. Possibly as a loan word. The way it is written it would be pronounced like the English "bot" though
13:58:14 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zf2wbRWb9xI
13:58:22 <Vorpal> with a single t it would be different
13:58:27 <Sgeo> What language is this?
13:58:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, that would be båten
13:58:46 <elliott> Deewiant: My, that's a little EDGY for you.
13:58:56 <Vorpal> Sgeo, can't check, no sound where I am.
13:58:57 <fizzie> Vorpal: "bott" doesn't exist? bo, bor, bodde, bott.
13:59:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh right, true
13:59:15 <elliott> <Sgeo> What language is this?
13:59:26 <Vorpal> Sgeo, it is probably Swedish anyway
13:59:34 <Deewiant> (18470.58 secs, 14756796564032 bytes)
13:59:36 <Vorpal> (if it is what I'm thinking of)
13:59:44 <Vorpal> Deewiant, what conjecture?
13:59:58 <elliott> Deewiant actually just typed [], he just has a really slow computer.
14:00:21 <elliott> And also his GHC has a really bad memory leak.
14:00:40 <Vorpal> `frink 14756796564032 bytes -> gb
14:00:41 <elliott> 13.5 terabytes for the empty list is quite impressive.
14:00:43 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boten_Anna#Swedish_lyrics
14:00:45 <Vorpal> wasn't that the command?
14:00:52 <HackEgo> Unknown symbol "gb" \ Warning: undefined symbol "gb". \ Unconvertable expression: \ 118054372512256 bit (information) -> gb (undefined symbol)
14:00:56 <elliott> Also, "gb" is unlikely to work.
14:01:01 <Vorpal> `frink 14756796564032 bytes -> gigabytes
14:01:01 <elliott> `frink 14756796564032 bytes -> gibibyte
14:01:12 <Vorpal> elliott, I want base 1000 :P
14:01:13 <HackEgo> 230574946313/15625000 (exactly 14756.796564032)
14:01:28 <elliott> Anyawy, like I said, 13.5 tebibytes.
14:01:37 <Vorpal> elliott, you said it after I typed that line
14:02:04 <HackEgo> 230574946313/16777216 (approx. 13743.33776909113)
14:02:22 <fizzie> Vorpal: Anyway, there was a recording from when someone called to a radio show host about the song, and explained the whole "IRC bot" thing, but the host just couldn't understand the concept and was all "no, no, you're mistaken, he's singing about a boat".
14:02:23 <elliott> Gotta love that useful rational representation.
14:02:47 <elliott> fizzie: I'm not sure what would compel someone to attempt to explain that to a radio show host.
14:03:03 <Deewiant> Anyway, the line was filter (uncurry (<)) [(fromIntegral (abs d :: Int32) :: Word32, fromIntegral (gcd (2^32 :: Int64) (fromIntegral d :: Int64)) :: Word32) | d <- [minBound..maxBound :: Int32], d /= 0]
14:03:07 <fizzie> elliott: The radio show host had kept on babbling about the boat earlier, I suppose it got on someone's nerves.
14:03:27 <elliott> fizzie: Isn't there a boat in the video? Very confusing.
14:03:53 <Vorpal> speaking of Swedish pronunciation, there is also quite a lot of dialectal variation still.
14:03:58 <Deewiant> For another conjecture, (5383.32 secs, 2327345782000 bytes) vs (5561.58 secs, 2706088878288 bytes) shows that using toInteger and Integers is faster than fromIntegral and Ints.
14:04:06 <elliott> Deewiant: Also, (abs d :: Int32) === (abs d) there.
14:04:10 <lambdabot> forall a. (Integral a) => a -> a -> a
14:04:17 <elliott> And (2^32 :: Int64) === (2^32).
14:04:20 <fizzie> Vorpal: Also since it's talking about the "kanal" and, you know, a canal of water and all.
14:04:24 <Deewiant> elliott: I added some extras to make sure everything was correct.
14:04:34 <elliott> Deewiant: TYPES DON'T WORK LIKE THAT
14:04:46 <Deewiant> elliott: Yes they do, it'd give me an error if they weren't what I thought they were.
14:05:02 <elliott> Deewiant: Anyway, you could, like, totally golf that.
14:05:12 <Deewiant> Yes, and optimize it. But that wasn't the point.
14:05:19 <Deewiant> The point was to make sure that it returns the empty list.
14:05:26 <fizzie> I have no idea how the "Jag är ingen [båt], jag är en väldigt, väldigt vacker tjej" part makes sense for the "boat interpretation", as it is known in scholarly circles.
14:05:37 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/a/8836331/1097181 ;; ooh, there's a *psychic* on SO.
14:05:44 <fizzie> Perhaps some sort of a possessed boat?
14:05:46 <elliott> Deewiant: Are we going to get context?
14:05:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, just looked up the lyrics and they make no sense wrt a boat
14:05:56 <Sgeo> fizzie, what's the translation of that?
14:06:11 <fizzie> Sgeo: "I'm not a bot, I'm a really, really beautiful girl."
14:06:21 <elliott> Well, you know boats these days.
14:06:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, the stuff about banning too
14:06:42 -!- elliott has set topic: I'm not a boat, I'm a really, really beautiful girl | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
14:06:57 <fizzie> "för i mina ögon är hon alltid en [båt]".
14:07:05 <elliott> Vorpal: Boats have kicked people out before!
14:07:05 <fizzie> "In my eyes she's always a bot/boat."
14:07:09 <itidus21> i guess what i was arguing earlier was that mathematics has some closed-circle views about reality. And going further to say that perhaps everyone has some closed-circle views about reality. These statements of mine themselves represent a closed circle argument.
14:07:26 <itidus21> means.. tidus acquired the word closed-circle argument in his inventory
14:07:54 <elliott> Oh, "itidus" derives from "tidus"? I suppose that should have been obvious.
14:07:59 <Vorpal> elliott, it said ban, not kick
14:08:09 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes, well, boats that kick don't let people back in.
14:08:25 <fizzie> Vorpal: I... guess it could be some sort of a warship that's patrolling the canal so that you can't travel there?
14:08:27 <Deewiant> elliott: Context: having checked that gcd (2^32) (fromIntegral d) * x doesn't overflow, what can we say about whether fromIntegral (abs d) * x overflows? (If I'm looking at this correctly.) As it turns out, I can't think of anything, although if that had been true in some cases, maybe there would've been something.
14:08:38 <itidus21> i dont necesarily still hold that view, but a few hours ago i was arguing it
14:08:47 <Sgeo> If you die on a boat, you die in real life!
14:08:51 <Deewiant> And the other one was filter (\(a,b) -> abs (toInteger a) /= toInteger b) [(x,y) | (x :: Int32) <- [minBound..maxBound], let y = fromIntegral (abs x) :: Word32].
14:08:57 <Deewiant> Which seems pretty self-explanatory.
14:09:07 <elliott> Deewiant: Doesn't QuickCheck let you run tests over functions?
14:09:10 <Vorpal> elliott, hm not true. I actually turned a small dinghy upside down in the water (as part of training how to do that, I used to sail many years ago)
14:09:11 <elliott> You could try and find a predicate.
14:09:51 <elliott> Deewiant: Well, um, good point.
14:09:57 <Vorpal> Deewiant, was this on one core or multiple cores?
14:09:58 <elliott> Something relating the two. Somehow. :p
14:10:11 <Deewiant> Vorpal: That's not using parFilter or anything so those are single-core.
14:10:12 <elliott> (It's not like it could be parallel over linked lists.)
14:10:21 <elliott> (Well, usefully parallel.)
14:10:27 <Vorpal> elliott, well he should have used parFilter then
14:10:37 <Deewiant> I don't think parFilter exists.
14:10:54 <Deewiant> And it wouldn't've been enough on its own, anyway.
14:11:02 <Deewiant> And I didn't exactly care about the runtime, either.
14:11:09 <elliott> Deewiant: You can easily construct it with Control.Parallel.Strategies.
14:11:20 <Deewiant> elliott: filter `using` parList or whatever?
14:11:33 <Deewiant> I forget how that module works.
14:11:36 <elliott> (\p xs -> filter p xs `using` parList), but I rather suspect you'd want to use one of the fancier chunking combinators.
14:11:42 <elliott> I mean, sparks are cheap, but not /that/ cheap.
14:11:54 <elliott> (\p xs -> filter p xs `using` parList strat)
14:12:01 <elliott> For some strat, probably rseq.
14:12:32 <Deewiant> Alternatively I could've just trusted my belief that what's true for 8-bit is also true for 32-bit.
14:13:03 <elliott> Deewiant: UNTRUE COUNTEREXAMPLE "THEY CAN HOLD ONLY THINGS OF 8 BITS" QED MOFO
14:13:55 <Vorpal> Deewiant, but is it true for 64-bit?
14:14:03 -!- boily has joined.
14:14:11 <fizzie> Deewiant: You mean you're not going to... check?
14:14:26 <elliott> Deewiant: You could use one of those fancy SMT things to check it.
14:14:31 <elliott> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/sbv, e.g.
14:14:44 <elliott> I don't know whether they're clever/good enough to.
14:14:50 <fizzie> <Deewiant> And I didn't exactly care about the runtime, either. <-- so there's no reason not to just bump up the bits.
14:15:07 <Vorpal> elliott, SMT... I heard this before, what did it stand for now again
14:15:11 <elliott> At least expressing it with one of them wouldn't be any harder than writing the Haskell code. :p
14:15:15 <elliott> Vorpal: Satisfiability, theories.
14:15:21 <Deewiant> elliott: That's probably an order of magnitude slower than boolector and whatnot.
14:15:25 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satisfiability_Modulo_Theories
14:15:31 <Vorpal> elliott, I quite like Something Modulo Thingies :P
14:15:38 <elliott> Deewiant: It doesn't dot he solving itself.
14:15:48 <elliott> Deewiant: It uses Yices or something.
14:16:11 <elliott> https://github.com/LeventErkok/sbv/tree/master/Data/SBV/Provers
14:16:14 <Deewiant> Anyway, I could just as easily express it in C and probably get faster runtime :-P
14:16:27 <Vorpal> elliott, what about z3?
14:16:42 <elliott> Deewiant: I somewhat doubt even C could enumerate 2^64 integers in a reasonable timeframe.
14:17:10 <Deewiant> I meant, express it in C and get the SMT problem from that.
14:17:28 <elliott> Deewiant: I doubt that would buy you anything over sbv, since it extracts to C anyway.
14:18:13 <Vorpal> Deewiant, why C->SMT? Are there automated tools for that or something?
14:18:15 * elliott considers getting sbv working and trying it himself.
14:18:16 <Deewiant> But anyway, I'm not sure that SMT solvers could figure it out.
14:18:47 <elliott> (Which is the best one in https://github.com/LeventErkok/sbv/tree/master/Data/SBV/Provers? I don't really want to try and get more than one of these things working.)
14:19:01 <Vorpal> itidus21, no, there is no way you can even run a simple loop that just counts up to 2^64 :P
14:19:02 <elliott> itidus21: What, enumerate all 64-bit integers?
14:19:06 <Deewiant> I tried finding examples of "des(x) == x" with SMT solvers and didn't get a solution after some 875 hours of CPU time.
14:19:22 <elliott> Deewiant: That property is a lot simpler than des(x) == x :P
14:19:25 <itidus21> point is though that if asm can't do it then it can't be done
14:19:27 <ais523> you know what? I'm not convinced Funge-98 is an esolang
14:19:36 <elliott> itidus21: Yes it can, you just have to use your brain.
14:19:36 <ais523> although I guess here's as good a place to discuss it as any
14:19:51 <elliott> itidus21: Brute force is not the only way to solve every problem.
14:19:57 <elliott> itidus21: Also, asm is not even the lowest level you can get at.
14:20:20 <itidus21> if the problem is ennumerating all 64 bit integers
14:20:22 <Deewiant> Vorpal: I did C at that time so that I could go C -> LLVM -> optimized LLVM -> hand-translated SMT
14:20:24 <Vorpal> ais523, what is it then? It is not exactly a main stream language.
14:20:35 <elliott> Oh, Yices and Z3 are the only ones supported.
14:20:38 <itidus21> then asm would be your best bet :P
14:20:51 <Sgeo> Does cheater expect his trolling to be successful?
14:20:55 <Vorpal> ais523, I think it is just an esolang that borders on not being one. But still firmly on the esolang side of things.
14:20:59 <elliott> itidus21: No, it wouldn't.
14:21:05 <elliott> Sgeo: What's he doing this time?
14:21:10 <itidus21> any funge derivative is an esolang
14:21:15 <Sgeo> <cheater_> hey guys what is the opposite of return? ...
14:21:20 <Sgeo> <cheater_> i want something like <-
14:21:35 <ais523> cheater: ever heard of comonads?
14:21:38 <elliott> Sgeo: You assume he's trolling, but I think he might just be stupid.
14:21:45 <ais523> they have unreturn and unjoin as their primitives, no matter what elliott wants to call them
14:21:52 <elliott> At least if #haskell over many months is any indicator.
14:21:58 <Deewiant> elliott: IIRC Z3 was about twice as fast as yices on average in SMT-COMP 2011
14:22:00 <fizzie> Deewiant: Incidentally this is the map-related decision I briefly mentioned: http://www.maanmittauslaitos.fi/tiedotteet/2011/12/raha-asiainvaliokunta-puoltaa-avausehdotusta -- so starting first of May, there's going to be some datta.
14:22:05 <Vorpal> ais523, what does elliott want to call them?
14:22:33 <Vorpal> Deewiant, which one was fastest?
14:22:40 <fizzie> Of course in the US it's been a law that all federally produced stuff is free for who knows how long. :p
14:22:40 <Sgeo> He solved his problem with binds and lambdas, apparently
14:22:45 <Vorpal> Deewiant, I meant out of all
14:22:47 <itidus21> elliott: i wouldn't even know how to go to lower levels than asm :P
14:22:51 <Deewiant> Vorpal: Yes, that's what I meant as well.
14:23:07 <itidus21> i have heard of microcode though
14:23:15 <Deewiant> Vorpal: There were many benchmarks and it didn't win all of them, but it was the fastest for my use case at least.
14:23:17 <elliott> itidus21: I was thinking FPGAs.
14:23:47 <itidus21> would you put them on a board and plug it in? :D
14:24:46 <itidus21> i say this to hint at the fact that i doubt very many individuals ever make their own AGP/PCI cards
14:24:56 <itidus21> and maybe it's an underdeveloped area
14:25:03 <Vorpal> problem with FPGAs is that unless you can take advantage of their different architecture it is going to be slower
14:25:20 <Vorpal> I believe the top clock frequencies for FPGAs is around 200 MHz
14:25:27 <Vorpal> (might be somewhat out of date on that)
14:25:35 <ais523> they don't need a high clock speed
14:25:46 <elliott> [ 1 of 104] Compiling Data.SBV.Utils.Lib ( Data/SBV/Utils/Lib.hs, dist/build/SBVUnitTests/SBVUnitTests-tmp/Data/SBV/Utils/Lib.o )
14:25:51 <ais523> and you don't really need to take advantage of the architecture beyond running thousands of cores in parallel
14:25:53 <Vorpal> ais523, indeed, if the problem is suited to being done on an FPGA of course.
14:25:55 <elliott> Deewiant: It'll probably take 2 seconds to check but ten years to install sbv
14:26:00 <Vorpal> ais523, and that is what I meant
14:26:02 <ais523> if your project parallelises easily, no issue using FPGAs at all
14:26:29 <Vorpal> ais523, if it doesn't parallelise you have issues though
14:26:59 <itidus21> yeah, i want to develop a GLU = game logic unit :P (not really.. sounds cool though)
14:27:04 <ais523> Vorpal: not really; see, e.g. the stats at the end of http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~drg/papers/icfp11.pdf
14:27:10 <Vorpal> ais523, hm are there any embarrassingly non-parallelisable problems?
14:27:23 <elliott> ais523: counting to 2^64 parallelises really easily
14:27:35 <ais523> we gave an input which is pretty much the worst possible algorithm for implementing on an FPGA, and the resulting circuit did no parallelism at all
14:27:43 <Vorpal> elliott, you can't use 2^64 "cores" though
14:28:01 <ais523> and yet it was within a factor of 2 of the algol, and within a factor of around 7 of ocaml
14:28:09 <itidus21> what is achieved by counting though.. the algorithm makes no sense
14:28:22 <ais523> even with just the one thread, the advantage gained from hardcoding your program into the hardware is noticeable
14:28:23 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, it would work.
14:28:29 <itidus21> its like in brainfuck you would optimize ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
14:29:00 <Vorpal> elliott, no it wouldn't due to you not having that many
14:29:09 <elliott> Vorpal: That doesn't mean it parallelises any worse.
14:29:11 <itidus21> so you could optimize the counting problem to just setting a variable to 2^64
14:29:25 <Vorpal> elliott, but what I mean is that it isn't a practical solution
14:29:41 <fizzie> ais523: We recently had some visiting guy from Japan doing signal processing (sound recognition; not speech, just environmental sounds in general) on an FPGA.
14:29:52 * elliott wonders how long it'd take the top supercomputer to count to 2^64 (in parallel).
14:29:57 <oklopol> itidus21: how is that a tradeoff?
14:30:06 <Vorpal> itidus21, the problem was actually to run a function on each value
14:30:12 <fizzie> Apparently it was rather faster than running the equivalent stuff on DSP cores.
14:30:14 <itidus21> oklopol: oh.. my posts dont make sense sequentially
14:30:43 <elliott> Deewiant: What, z3's not open-sores? :/
14:30:52 <Vorpal> elliott, it is MS research
14:30:57 <itidus21> 2^64 cores solution demands more space... using 1 core demands more time
14:31:04 <Vorpal> elliott, you need to use a really old version or run it under wine
14:31:24 <Vorpal> itidus21, the bf case is not a tradeoff at all
14:31:30 <Vorpal> nor is just setting a variable
14:31:43 <itidus21> Vorpal: i know.. hence my comment about my posts don't make sense sequentially
14:31:44 <fizzie> Vorpal: It was all "and then we made our vectors this long..." "but what about the running time?" "we just used more gates".
14:32:07 <Vorpal> ais523, I wonder why there aren't FPGAs in normal computers. To offload problems to. Just like you offload rendering (and other stuff) to GPUs
14:32:33 <ais523> Vorpal: people are starting to do that already, I think
14:32:36 <ais523> it's not mainstream yet
14:32:39 <elliott> Deewiant: Oh come on, Yices is closed-source too?
14:32:41 <ais523> but may become so eventually
14:32:50 <ais523> elliott: what are these programs for?
14:33:10 <elliott> ais523: satisfiability modulo theories
14:33:22 <itidus21> so it seems to me the formula is.... i = 2 ^ 64 / c where c is the number of cores, and i is the number of iterations per core
14:33:27 <ais523> Vorpal: if you have a few thousand pounds to spare, you can buy an FPGA add-on for your computer right now
14:33:35 <ais523> then the problem's just finding software that makes use of it
14:33:38 <Vorpal> ais523, sadly I don't have that
14:33:46 <ais523> I can only expect the price to come down over time
14:33:58 <ais523> it just needs a killer app, really (like gaming for GPUs)
14:34:15 <elliott> Deewiant: How recent is Z3 2.19? :p
14:34:19 <Vorpal> ais523, the problem is no game is going to depend on such a thing, because it would hurt the sales figures
14:34:42 <ais523> hmm, I added VHDL to Emacs' flymake-mode yesterday
14:34:45 <elliott> Vorpal: Games have had optional-but-makes-it-prettier things for ages now.
14:34:46 <ais523> also, turned flymake-mode on by default
14:34:55 <elliott> (diff) (hist) . . N User:Splu26ri160a; 12:55 . . (+4,830) . . Splu26ri160a (Talk | contribs) (New page: Your email could not be delivered error 552. Who knows what this means! SMTP error codes were designed way back in 1982, mainly for other computers to be able to read and understand them. ...)
14:35:08 <ais523> elliott: right, you'd have a game that works fine without it, but ends up with 100 times the framerate or something silly like that with
14:35:09 <Vorpal> elliott, you need to find such a use for FPGAs too
14:35:33 <ais523> Vorpal: actually, I think the FPGA-in-PC market's currently being driven by bitcoin miners
14:35:47 <Vorpal> ais523, I would expect any such killer app to happen in, say, CAD or such first, this would bring it down a bit, then maybe in something more mainstream
14:35:49 <ais523> sometimes I wonder if bitcoin is actually a cunning plan to advance the state of technology
14:36:08 <ais523> Vorpal: I don't get why CAD would require that sort of processor power
14:36:10 <Vorpal> ais523, didn't the price of bitcoin collapse or something iirc?
14:36:15 <itidus21> ais523: everything is "actually a [...] technology"
14:36:32 <Vorpal> ais523, advanced simulation?
14:36:36 <ais523> Vorpal: yes, although it picked up somewhat after that
14:37:00 <elliott> "You should download Z3 version 3.2 or later."
14:37:12 <elliott> Ah, http://research.microsoft.com/projects/z3/z3-x64-3.2.tar.gz
14:37:16 <elliott> Vorpal: Not ancient, that's the latest version.
14:37:25 <itidus21> im such a phony using expressions like fsvo.. someone could accidently mistake me for one of you
14:37:35 <ais523> <lament> (of course, there's also z-machine for windows. Sadly, no windows for the z-machine yet.)
14:37:36 <Vorpal> elliott, last I looked (half a year ago?) that wasn't around
14:37:52 <elliott> Or, maybe Deewiant used it a bit before me.
14:38:15 <Vorpal> ais523, z-machines hm, what are those now again?
14:38:30 <ais523> some game interp, IIRC
14:38:38 <HackEgo> 2006-08-29.txt:09:04:18: <GreyKnight> FSVO "few" \ 2009-07-11.txt:19:21:32: <ehird> FSVO recently \ 2009-07-20.txt:19:59:04: <ehird> well, FSVO entirely possible \ 2009-07-24.txt:18:56:18: <ehird> AnMaster: fsvo love equal to shit \ 2009-07-24.txt:18:56:25: <AnMaster> "fsvo"? \ 2009-07-24.txt:18:56:36: <ehird> fsvo. \ 2009-07-24.txt:18:56:37: <GregorR-L> `translate fsvo \ 2009-07-24.txt:18:56:38: <HackEgo> fsvo
14:39:04 <itidus21> hackego's heart just wasn't in it
14:39:12 <Deewiant> elliott: I don't think I've ever used the abbreviation "FSVO", at least.
14:39:23 <Vorpal> Deewiant, for some values of used?
14:39:45 <Vorpal> I don't have the logs on this computer so meh
14:40:21 <ais523> ooh, I've reached the arrival of ehird` in my great log reread
14:40:28 <elliott> Prelude Data.SBV> prove $ \(x::SWord8) -> x .== 0
14:40:28 <elliott> *** Unable to locate executable for Yices
14:40:28 <elliott> *** Executable specified: "yices"
14:40:32 <ais523> it's been over three years now
14:40:41 <elliott> ais523: I still plan to read every single log in order some day.
14:40:45 <Deewiant> 2009-07-24 20:57:13( Deewiant) http://www.google.com/search?q=fsvo
14:41:00 <Deewiant> That's the only use other than that "I don't think I've ever used" use.
14:41:08 <ais523> wow, it's so weird to see elliott not knowing something about the channel
14:41:20 <ais523> Deewiant: that isn't a use, that's a mention
14:41:28 <elliott> ais523: what, Deewiant not using FSVO, or?
14:41:35 <ais523> (the referent of "that" is ambiguous there, but the statement's right both ways)
14:41:53 <ais523> elliott: Google-searching something is mentioning it, not using it
14:42:06 <elliott> Prelude Data.SBV> proveWith z3 $ \(x::SWord8) -> x .== x
14:42:14 <elliott> Deewiant: OK what was the proposition again.
14:42:36 <Deewiant> > filter (uncurry (<)) [(fromIntegral (abs d :: Int32) :: Word32, fromIntegral (gcd (2^32 :: Int64) (fromIntegral d :: Int64)) :: Word32) | d <- [minBound..maxBound :: Int32], d /= 0]
14:42:47 <ais523> elliott: oh, we may have been using TC all wrong
14:42:58 <ais523> there was a goodmathbadmath post about the difference between turing-complete and turing-equivalent
14:43:09 <Vorpal> ais523, oh? what is the difference?
14:43:13 <ais523> (a TC computation is one that requires at least a TE interp to run)
14:43:36 <Deewiant> http://scienceblogs.com/goodmath/2007/01/turing_equivalent_vs_turing_co.php
14:43:45 <Vorpal> ais523, are there any known TC computations?
14:44:16 <Vorpal> elliott, apart from interpreting TE interps I mean
14:44:17 <ais523> yep, interpreting a TE language is the most common one
14:44:31 <ais523> another one is to run all possible programs in a particular TE lang in parallel
14:44:34 <ais523> and output when each of them halts
14:45:04 <ais523> (if you don't care about the exact details of how the threads interleave, running infinitely many things in parallel is trivial)
14:45:54 <Vorpal> okay let me rephrase that: are there any known TC computations that doesn't involve TE languages.
14:45:56 <itidus21> `searchlog itidus computation limit
14:45:58 <elliott> Deewiant: What's the corresponding form for 8-bit? Just s/Int32/Int8/ s/Word32/Word8/?
14:46:00 <ais523> hmm, what2D languages have nothing to do with Befunge?
14:46:12 <HackEgo> 2012-01-12.txt:14:45:56: <itidus21> `searchlog itidus computation limit
14:46:31 <itidus21> bah.. anyway.. i think one of you directed me to the gravity esolang
14:46:36 <Deewiant> elliott: And the Int64 is of course just "some bigger int"
14:46:41 <elliott> Deewiant: Right. Could the Int64 be shortened to ... right.
14:46:44 <itidus21> when i was questioning the limits of computation
14:46:47 <ais523> elliott: ah, interesting
14:46:51 <Vorpal> itidus21, I believe that one is uncomputable?
14:46:53 <ais523> made by the inventor of c2, I didn't expect that
14:47:38 <itidus21> there was another time discussing sumamoito where i held the belief for a short moment that sumamoito was uncomputable
14:47:44 <itidus21> but elliott cleared up that mistake for me
14:48:13 <ais523> hmm, is Biota the only esolang ever to have been sold at a profit?
14:48:29 <Vorpal> huh, sold at a profit?
14:49:04 <Vorpal> ais523, under what circumstances did that happen?
14:49:33 <ais523> <ais523> do bees hibernate?
14:49:45 <ais523> Vorpal: not sure; apparently someone found Biota useful enough to buy it
14:49:55 <ais523> the idea was to make a language that was reasonably resistant to mutation
14:50:06 <itidus21> it was devised by ward cunningham apparently (looking at the wiki)
14:50:20 <itidus21> and he is a big name so i guess he can sell esolangs
14:50:28 <Sgeo> ais523, sounds similar to a design requirement for Creatures
14:50:41 <Sgeo> Uh, big name != ability to find a buyer for esolangs
14:50:41 <itidus21> "The inventor of Biota. Also, the inventor of the wiki, having created the Internet's first wiki at c2.com. Outside of the esolangs community, he is far more famous for the latter. "
14:51:01 <ais523> possibly inside the esolangs community too
14:51:13 <Sgeo> Smalltalk source in a text file?
14:51:27 <ais523> text file's a good way to store source
14:51:39 <ais523> I bet even @lang has a text representation it can roundtrip via
14:51:40 <itidus21> what exactly do you sell with an esolang
14:52:00 <ais523> an interp for it? copyrights on the spec? support?
14:52:02 <elliott> ais523: Biota predates esolangs, really
14:52:11 <Vorpal> ais523, I'm guessing elliott is going to go with no? (wrt text)
14:52:11 <elliott> and wasn't intended as one
14:52:30 <elliott> <itidus21> it was devised by ward cunningham apparently (looking at the wiki)
14:52:39 <elliott> itidus21: The irony of this statement is palpable.
14:52:51 <ais523> it's really unlike funge in pretty much every way, it's more like sansism
14:53:03 <elliott> <ais523> I bet even @lang has a text representation it can roundtrip via
14:53:04 <ais523> elliott: no capital W, it's OK
14:53:13 <ais523> besides, the Wiki says it was deviced by ward cunningham too
14:53:27 <itidus21> i have read up on ward a teeny bit before
14:53:50 <elliott> Deewiant: The hard part is the casting here. :p
14:53:51 <itidus21> that his wiki focuses on patterns perhaps..
14:53:58 <elliott> Deewiant: Oh, SignCast is what I want.
14:54:06 <itidus21> maybe something about extreme programming
14:54:17 <ais523> heh, discussion of the timeout challenge on anagolf
14:54:35 <ais523> and the way that the golfiest way to get a timeout in ruby is `vi`
14:54:47 <itidus21> the idea of copyrighting a language spec just isn't cool
14:55:20 <Vorpal> itidus21, I would assume C# or such is copyrighted?
14:55:24 <elliott> Deewiant: Reassure me that (unsignCast . extend . signCast) will DTRT, thx
14:55:26 <Vorpal> and yes C and so on too
14:55:31 <itidus21> it could be done in a predatory way
14:55:36 <elliott> (signCast . extend . unsignCast)
14:55:50 <ais523> hmm, clearly, the esolang just refuses to function unless you've paid its author money
14:56:05 <ais523> if you patch out the check that does that, you're no longer conforming to the spec
14:56:53 <Vorpal> itidus21, when did you first come here btw?
14:57:03 <elliott> Context reduction stack overflow; size = 21
14:57:03 <elliott> Use -fcontext-stack=N to increase stack size to N
14:57:03 <elliott> $dSignCast :: SignCast SWord8 SInt16
14:57:03 <elliott> $dSignCast :: SignCast SWord16 SInt8
14:57:03 <elliott> $dSignCast :: SignCast SWord8 SInt16
14:57:05 <elliott> $dSignCast :: SignCast SWord16 SInt8
14:57:07 <elliott> $dSignCast :: SignCast SWord8 SInt16
14:57:09 <elliott> $dSignCast :: SignCast SWord16 SInt8
14:57:11 <elliott> $dSignCast :: SignCast SWord8 SInt16
14:57:13 <ais523> elliott: wow, you really used to hate funge-98
14:57:20 <lambdabot> forall a. (Integral a) => a -> a -> a
14:57:27 <ais523> meanwhile, I had a sudden realisation that I'm a call-by-name fanboy
14:57:38 <ais523> Paul Levy has promised to shock me out of it next week, I'll be interested in that
14:57:51 <Vorpal> ais523, you actually like call by name? why?
14:57:53 <ais523> Vorpal: for being so much more complex than -93
14:58:05 <Vorpal> ais523, also who is Paul Levy?
14:58:06 <itidus21> like, suppose brainfuck was copyrighted
14:58:10 <ais523> Vorpal: because it's so much more natural and intuitive than CBV, and has many fewer special cases
14:58:15 <ais523> Vorpal: the call by push value guy
14:58:22 <ais523> he was mentioned to me by elliott, I think
14:58:26 <itidus21> would it be that you could just replace one char with another?
14:58:29 <Vorpal> ais523, what about call by reference?
14:58:30 <ais523> who was surprised to discover that we worked in the same department
14:58:38 <ais523> Vorpal: hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
14:58:57 <Vorpal> ais523, thanks. The reaction was everything I hoped.
14:59:57 <ais523> 21:28:39: <ehird`> gcc insists char [x][y]
14:59:58 <ais523> 21:28:45: <ehird`> is really really different from char **
15:00:12 <ais523> elliott: wow, I'd never expected such a misconception coming from you
15:00:33 <ais523> sadly, my response to you was also a misconception
15:00:53 <itidus21> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bangalore_India_Tech_books_for_sale_IMG_5261.jpg
15:01:15 <elliott> Deewiant: I'm going to have to write my own gcd
15:01:28 <elliott> ais523: Please, don't assume 2008-ehird is me; I dislike him quite intensely
15:01:44 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway I quite like call by value for strict languages anyway. I guess call by name might make more sense in a lazy language hm
15:02:19 <elliott> Vorpal: Note that a language does not (should not) have to enforce a call strategy.
15:02:29 <elliott> It's an implementation detail.
15:02:38 <Vorpal> elliott, I believe C enforces call by value?
15:02:45 <elliott> Haskell, for example, only requires non-strict semantics; so lazy evaluation, call-by-name, etc. are all legitimate implementation strategies.
15:02:45 <itidus21> so is there such a thing as a public domain programming language?
15:02:58 <elliott> Vorpal: As-if rule says it doesn't, although there's not much you could do with that flexibility.
15:03:01 <elliott> itidus21: everything on http://esolangs.org/w
15:03:34 <lambdabot> gcd 0 0 = error "Prelude.gcd: gcd 0 0 is undefined"
15:03:38 <itidus21> so biota is public domain by now right? :D
15:04:03 <Vorpal> elliott, which evaluation stratergy does ghc use?
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15:05:12 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
15:05:17 <ais523_> 19:03:06: <AnMaster> I'm pondering writing a befunge interpreter in bash, however, I'm not clear on one point, while the size of the playfield isn't limited in Befunge-98, is it "not limited in one dimension, but still limited in the other" or "totally unlimited"?
15:05:23 <ais523_> see, I can poke fun at past-all-of-us
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15:05:30 <ais523> apart from people who weren't there
15:06:12 <Vorpal> wow I had forgotten that befunge implementation. It kind of worked for -93 I remember.
15:06:13 <elliott> Deewiant: I run into the roadblock of having no idea how to extend this thing with functions :P
15:06:16 <Vorpal> ugly piece of crap though
15:06:28 <Vorpal> since bash really doesn't like null-bytes
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15:06:58 <Vorpal> I had to store null bytes as something else
15:07:08 <Vorpal> forgot how I solved that
15:07:23 <elliott> Vorpal: Yo, how do I define gcd in Z3
15:07:38 <elliott> Hmm, I guess you have to specify them as axioms
15:07:47 <Vorpal> elliott, no clue. When I said I used z3 I mean I used it as a backend to something else
15:07:54 <Vorpal> and it worked pretty well for that
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15:10:59 <ais523_> [15:07] <ais523> Vorpal: you stored them as the string "NUL"
15:11:01 <ais523_> [15:07] <ais523> apparently, you got most of -98 sort-of-working too
15:11:09 <ais523_> it completed Mycology but with a few BADs and no fingerprints
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15:11:48 <elliott> http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/sbv/0.9.24/doc/html/Data-SBV-Examples-CodeGeneration-GCD.html
15:11:51 <itidus21> i suppose i have fun creating trouble by saying things of an imbalancing nature
15:12:03 <elliott> "Why 12? We've empirically determined that this algorithm will recurse at most 12 times for arbitrary 8-bit numbers. Of course, this is a claim that we shall prove below."
15:12:07 <elliott> argh, it only works for 8-bits
15:12:07 <Vorpal> ais523|sl, I believe I didn't actually handle arbitrarily wide playfield (because bash only had one-dimensional arrays) just a very large value
15:12:15 <Vorpal> ais523|sl, and that didn't trip up mycology
15:12:23 <elliott> sgcd :: SWord8 -> SWord8 -> SWord8
15:12:23 <elliott> where go :: SWord8 -> SWord8 -> SWord8 -> SWord8
15:12:23 <elliott> go x y c = ite (c .== 0 ||| y .== 0) -- stop if y is 0, or if we reach the recursion depth
15:12:26 <elliott> where (_, y') = x `bvQuotRem` y
15:12:58 <Vorpal> ais523|sl, anyway I have no clue where the source for that thing is, if I even have it still. It is probably around in a backup. Which year was it?
15:13:03 <itidus21> A program whose instructions exist in continuous space.
15:13:13 <ais523|sl> you made cfunge a couple of days later
15:13:38 <Vorpal> I believe I was still learning C at the time
15:14:08 <itidus21> A further deviation of the continuous chess idea
15:14:54 <itidus21> cellular automata are so friendly with their tile-alignment
15:14:54 <fizzie> ais523|sl: Hey, you'll hit fungot's first appearance soon, if you haven't already; that's in 2008 too.
15:14:54 <fungot> fizzie: thank you for the positive approach which makes use of a gmo may be authorised against the will of the majority of members of parliament.
15:15:21 <Vorpal> fungot, wow that sounds scary
15:15:22 <fungot> Vorpal: mr president, here with me in this matter, though i feel this is necessary. my view is that dublin i achieved its objectives of regulating the market in may, as we know, allocates eur fnord million in the 2001 budget. having always been in favour of all the services and reception facilities must apply to all the others and extend its cooperation with states who find themselves excluded from it.
15:15:43 <fizzie> Also I see that "^raw" was free-for-all at first, and the fourth thing the bot said on channel was "PISS OUT MY ASS".
15:16:04 <itidus21> but an infinite space where there are only points and edges, all existing at relative distances from each other
15:16:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, did it run on cfunge from the start or was it rcfunge first?
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15:16:31 <fungot> elliott: mr president, i think that, while the agency has lost 20 because of these shortcomings that we are very happy, i think, is to consolidate what has been said demonstrates the tendency and effort to liberate tibet and censure the peoples republic of china since 1986, especially in the central southern areas of the country is very complex, because we need to deploy all the resources, if the ban remains in place, as was re
15:16:46 <fizzie> Rc/Funge-98 was what I started with, yes.
15:16:48 <fungot> elliott: last night, that there are no easy answers. i hope that parliament will be right behind you. mr rack was right: the iraqi people should be given the power of the judiciary, with clear figures and sanctions. furthermore, there were procedures which the court of auditors' reports, and i would like to ask the european commission has been made so far on the closure of the pas de calais plant is the worst one. since the dis
15:17:01 <fungot> elliott: madam president, it is in taking repressive measures, restore the constitutional state and release all 30 remaining political prisoners.
15:17:07 <fizzie> fungot: STILL NOT ELLIOTT.
15:17:07 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, i would like to give a high profile in contrast to the much discussed issue of category. as you will be able to turn back the clock of history.
15:17:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, what causes that bug?
15:17:27 <fizzie> It's part of the same corruption thing.
15:17:49 <itidus21> Phantom_Hoover: yeah i just find the discrete space of befunge to be too "easy"
15:17:59 <Vorpal> elliott, you said one line and it highlighted you 3 times rather than the person who actually triggered it
15:18:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm maybe it is overlong lines or such?
15:18:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, try increasing the size of some buffers to more than what should be required?
15:18:31 <itidus21> discrete 2d graphs in general, with a finite number of neighbours for each cell
15:18:42 <fizzie> Yes, it could be the text-generation making overlong sentences, though those should have limits.
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15:18:54 <fizzie> Vorpal: Here's how it saw the last lines: http://sprunge.us/cdNL
15:19:41 <elliott> fizzie: Can the text generator overflow if a /word/ is too long?
15:19:41 <Ngevd> fizzie, that explains why Pietbot isn't working!
15:19:47 <elliott> fizzie: Like, it's under, appends a word, and that makes it go oevr.
15:20:28 <fizzie> elliott: I don't really recall at all. My guess is it's writing directly to the "output line" buffer, but I could be worng.
15:20:30 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
15:20:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, just in case you might want to try valgrind. I can't say I have debugged the network code much past making sure mycology passes, which iirc gives 100% branch coverage (excluding "failed to connect" style branches)
15:21:26 <Vorpal> I don't really see what sort of C code bug could cause that result though
15:21:33 <Vorpal> the code is fairly simple iirc
15:23:37 <elliott> 100% branch coverage excluding branches.
15:24:05 <Vorpal> elliott, I should point out that there are actually branches in cfunge testing if malloc returned NULL :P
15:24:15 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm talking about that sort of branches.
15:24:31 <Vorpal> elliott, and a lot of input validation
15:24:37 <fizzie> Line 0 is the input buffer I read to with SOCK; line 3 has the current IRC message line before parsing, and is also used for the reply; lines 4... are the separate parts (prefix, command, arguments) of the IRC line. If I mungle around on line 3, that shouldn't matter, since in the next round it *should* copy a new line on top of it. Line 8 is used for reading the babble model files, and line 9 has the generated tokens of the sentence.
15:24:39 <Vorpal> I have code to test all of that
15:24:45 <Vorpal> except the malloc ones
15:24:58 <fizzie> In general though I'd expect that even if one of these buffers overflow, they'd stay on their respective lines.
15:25:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm any literal newlines that might mess up anywhere?
15:25:34 <Vorpal> oh wait you use FILE right?
15:26:26 <itidus21> about that good math bad math thing, the guy didn't give any references so i think its ok to hold onto your definitions of TC for now
15:26:27 <fizzie> Yes, and even if you 'p' a newline it won't change the topology of the space (sadly). But of course there might well be bugs in anywhere.
15:26:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, I was thinking about io with i
15:26:44 <itidus21> until there is some signifigant proof
15:26:48 <Vorpal> you could run into newline issues there
15:27:00 <fizzie> Oh, right. Well, no, I don't use 'i' except for ^reload.
15:27:14 <itidus21> i mean the mere fact that the guy is a mathematician phd blogger working at google doesn't give him final word
15:27:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway how many bytes do you read from the socket? Could you end up with reading 511 out of 512 chars or such?
15:28:04 <Vorpal> afaik SOCK doesn't split into lines for you
15:28:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, so I assume you deal with partial lines somehow?
15:28:26 <fizzie> Vorpal: I read up to fff** bytes at a time.
15:28:30 <elliott> <itidus21> about that good math bad math thing, the guy didn't give any references so i think its ok to hold onto your definitions of TC for now
15:28:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, what if you have a partial line in the OS buffer?
15:28:43 <elliott> itidus21: The guy is prominent enough to *be* the reference, methinks.
15:29:01 <itidus21> so how did you guys get it wrong? :P
15:29:15 <elliott> <fizzie> Yes, and even if you 'p' a newline it won't change the topology of the space (sadly).
15:29:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, a line could be split over multiple packets due to Nagel's algorithm bunching up a bit of data and you hitting the limit for the packet size in the middle of a line
15:29:18 <elliott> fizzie: Very sadly indeed.
15:29:33 <Vorpal> probably due to other reasons as well
15:29:36 <itidus21> as far as language goes, language changes.. gay doesn't mean happy
15:30:00 <itidus21> and maybe this guy is a grump about terminology
15:30:27 <fizzie> Vorpal: It reads into line 0, appending it after the end of any previous incomplete line; then processes all complete lines (that end in CR or LF), and finally copies whatever trailing bytes remain after the last CR or LF to start of line 0, so that the next read appends to that.
15:30:34 <fizzie> Vorpal: Or anyway that's what it's supposed to do.
15:31:13 <fizzie> For each newline it copies the complete IRC-line to line 3, and then does whatever is necessary.
15:31:29 <fizzie> I think it ignores empty lines before that bit of code, but that shouldn't really be relevant.
15:31:51 <fizzie> (For example the empty line between CR and LF if the server's sending CRLF-terminated lines like it IIRC should.)
15:31:52 <Vorpal> I can't see any obvious problems in the algorithms
15:32:02 <Vorpal> and I don't feel like debugging befunge code written by someone else
15:32:10 <Vorpal> and I just looked at SOCK.c
15:32:35 <Vorpal> very simple code for R
15:32:42 <elliott> fizzie: Can you write an n-cursor k-d tree zipper for me, please? Thanks
15:33:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, what would happen if the server sent LF terminated or CR terminated?
15:33:49 <fizzie> Nothing much, except there wouldn't be any empty lines to ignore.
15:33:54 <fizzie> It accepts both as terminators.
15:33:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, also if you replay the input, does the bug still happen?
15:34:14 <fizzie> No, IIRC; that's sort-of why I suspect the babblerator.
15:34:24 <Vorpal> how do you do the randomness?
15:34:27 <fizzie> Though it of course might have to do with the reads getting split up at different places.
15:34:32 <fizzie> With "?", what else?-)
15:34:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, I believe there is some fingerprint that provides random(n), not sure
15:34:51 <fizzie> Anyway, I needs to go grocery shopping now, back laters.
15:35:35 <itidus21> elliott: basically seems to me he is trying to say that a language/machine is TE, but a program is TC
15:35:39 <Vorpal> oh yes, FIXP (an rcfunge one) provides D for fixed point randomness
15:35:47 <Vorpal> err, integer randomness even
15:35:59 <Vorpal> which I see I do in the rather naive way.
15:36:17 <Vorpal> (random() % n) <-- don't do this at home kids
15:36:39 <Vorpal> (at least I left a comment about it)
15:36:40 <itidus21> "It's about the distinction between a Turing equivalent computing system, and a Turing complete computation. "
15:38:41 <itidus21> don't worry guys im sure your wiki pages don't need updating
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15:46:29 <Ngevd> Is it possible to make lambdabot give someone a message at a particular time
15:46:56 <itidus21> who created lambabot, was it roger g?
15:46:57 <Vorpal> Ngevd, if that time is "when they next speak", sure
15:47:32 <Ngevd> Vorpal, I was thinking more along the lines of first of february
15:48:20 <elliott> itidus21: It's been around for at least 8 years, I think.
15:49:01 <itidus21> Ngevd: do you mean to simulate a regular @tell on the specified moment?
15:49:16 <Ngevd> itidus21, that would be nice, but not necassarily
15:49:33 <itidus21> the person might not be there at the specified time
15:49:44 <Ngevd> It's going to be me
15:51:40 <elliott> Ngevd: Just @tell yourself to @tell yourself about it then.
15:51:48 <elliott> And keep re@telling yourself about it until the day before.
15:52:15 <itidus21> @tell ngevd <Ngevd> Is it possible to make lambdabot give someone a message at a particular time
15:52:36 <lambdabot> itidus21 said 20s ago: <Ngevd> Is it possible to make lambdabot give someone a message at a particular time
15:55:09 <Vorpal> <Ngevd> Vorpal, I was thinking more along the lines of first of february <-- log on then and give them that message?
15:55:18 <Vorpal> Ngevd, or schedule cron on your computer to send it?
15:57:04 <itidus21> the difference with me is i have practical uses for these topics
15:57:31 <itidus21> im not trying to fix whats not broken
15:57:41 <Ngevd> itidus21 is actually a Computer Science teacher
15:57:54 <itidus21> like, evolution vs intelligent design is not actually helpful :D
15:58:40 <itidus21> at least it's not a useful end in itself. i guess it generates cool things in the same way as chess ai research does
15:59:09 <Ngevd> Chess AI is next-to-useless except for playing chess
15:59:22 <Ngevd> What would be useful is an AI for some psychological game
15:59:57 <itidus21> but i mean (in my idealistic fairyland) that chess AI research improves the AI technology and such
16:00:11 <itidus21> can i prove it? no.. i just take peoples word on it
16:00:30 <elliott> Ngevd: I think gmail has a todo date reminder thing.
16:00:34 <itidus21> i guess its like how games create a market for graphics cards which accelerates their development
16:01:31 <Vorpal> Ngevd, also check your phone, I can put reminders in mine
16:01:54 <Ngevd> Bah, I never have my phone on
16:02:09 <Ngevd> Gmail seems the best option
16:02:10 <Vorpal> I only turn mine off when sleeping
16:02:27 <Vorpal> and unless I'm home it is always in my pocket
16:02:35 <Vorpal> when I'm home it is usually somewhere on my desk
16:03:07 <itidus21> traditional chinese medicine may have developed due to attempts to create an immortality system
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16:04:19 <itidus21> chemistry may have developed due to trying to turn lead into gold
16:05:01 <Vorpal> which is probably possible but not very cost efficient
16:05:42 <Vorpal> hm lead is 89 and gold 79. I guess you need to split lead to get gold then
16:06:18 <itidus21> this painting itself is cooler than the act it depicts http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c1/JosephWright-Alchemist-1.jpg
16:06:26 <Vorpal> Ngevd, is that the difference?
16:06:49 <Ngevd> Neon has 10 protons
16:06:52 <Vorpal> Ngevd, well we want to get the lighter element out of the heavier, not the other way around
16:08:00 <itidus21> for me, the goal is always games
16:08:39 <Vorpal> and what does it depict
16:08:43 <Vorpal> itidus21, and goal for what?
16:08:55 <Vorpal> itidus21, I meant more specifically
16:09:03 <itidus21> i dunno man i stumbled on it in wiki
16:09:13 <Vorpal> then I don't get the cooler thingy you just said
16:09:14 <itidus21> and i mean the goal of any study or serious work
16:09:31 <itidus21> alchemy inspired that painting
16:09:38 <Vorpal> itidus21, so in the end you want games out of everything?
16:09:48 <itidus21> and.. i think the painting is more valuable than gold
16:10:39 <itidus21> nah, i don't want to limit it to computer games
16:11:20 <itidus21> just as most music is done through a computer these days :P
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16:11:32 <itidus21> ok well i know the playing isn't
16:11:53 <Vorpal> uh.. no? It is generally done through sound waves
16:14:44 <itidus21> there is no good reason why gaming can't be an end in itself
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16:21:04 <elliott> :: ((t ~ Void) => Proxy () -> r)
16:21:04 <elliott> -> (forall a. (t ~ Const a, Reg a) => Proxy a -> r)
16:21:04 <elliott> -> ((t ~ Id) => Proxy () -> r)
16:21:04 <elliott> -> (forall a b. (t ~ (a :+: b), R a, R b) => Proxy (a (), b ()) -> r)
16:21:06 <elliott> -> (forall a b. (t ~ (a :*: b), R a, R b) => Proxy (a (), b ()) -> r)
16:21:08 <elliott> -> (forall a b. (t ~ (a :. b), R a, R b) => Proxy (a (), b ()) -> r)
16:21:38 <Ngevd> I have but the vaguest idea what this doesw
16:30:32 <Vorpal> elliott, what is Proxy?
16:30:55 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `Proxy'
16:30:56 <Ngevd> Wow, the sky is beatiful to the west
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16:48:27 <Sgeo> Vorpal, I vaguely think it's a thing to avoid using undefined::Blah all the time, but not sure
16:48:44 <elliott> Vorpal: http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/tagged/0.2.3.1/doc/html/Data-Proxy.html
16:49:09 <Vorpal> elliott, what does tagged do?
16:49:19 <elliott> Provides Data.Proxy and Data.Tagged.
16:49:35 <Sgeo> elliott: helpful
16:49:50 <kallisti> `run echo 'package Foo; our $x;' > test.pl; perl -e 'package Foo; our $x = 2; do "test.pl"; print $x'
16:49:54 <Sgeo> "Provides newtype wrappers for phantom types to avoid unsafely passing dummy arguments"
16:50:23 <kallisti> so a non-assigned our declaration does not rewrite anything.
16:50:42 <Sgeo> " This can be used in place of the more traditional but less safe idiom of passing in an undefined value with the type, because unlike an (s -> b), a Tagged s b can't try to use the argument s as a real value."
16:51:25 <elliott> (Proxy s -> b) is nicer than (Tagged s b).
16:52:37 <Sgeo> So Proxy Foo is an abstract thing that ... refers to type Foo without having a value?
16:54:08 <Sgeo> Ah, was wondering how to make Proxys
16:54:15 <Sgeo> So, Proxy::Int instead of undefined::Int
16:54:39 <elliott> yeah Proxy is a great Int.
16:54:50 <Sgeo> Proxy::(Proxy Int)
16:56:30 <Sgeo> I can think of preferring to use a Tagged over a Proxy
16:56:45 <Sgeo> Means just an untag, instead of a dummy Proxy argument
16:58:00 <elliott> Sgeo: Taggeds are a lot harder to write implementation code with.
16:58:07 <elliott> With proxies you can easily retag to recurse etc.
17:00:23 <Sgeo> Maybe I'll understand Reflection better
17:01:06 <Sgeo> Why proxy s -> a instead of Proxy s -> a?
17:04:41 <Sgeo> Let me see if I understand the usage: Code that calls code that .. etc. that use configuration stuff just add a class constraint to their type signature. No extra argument or anything like that. A function that wants the data gets at it by building a Proxy of the appropriate type (ScopedTypeVariables perhaps?) and calling reflect on it. The whole thing is run with reify
17:05:03 <Sgeo> Hmm, I'm not entirely sure it makes sense.
17:06:00 <Sgeo> Wait, the whole conglamoration needs to accept an argument
17:06:45 <Sgeo> I guess every function accepts an extra argument, but ... wait, that makes the whole thing pointless
17:10:08 <elliott> class Encoding t id (**) pu (++) su where
17:10:09 <elliott> -> (forall a b. (t ~ (a**b),
17:10:11 <elliott> Encoding a id (**) pu (++) su,
17:10:13 <elliott> Encoding b id (**) pu (++) su)
17:10:15 <elliott> => Proxy (a (), b ()) -> r)
17:10:17 <elliott> -> (forall a b. (t ~ (a++b),
17:10:19 <elliott> Encoding a id (**) pu (++) su,
17:10:21 <elliott> Encoding b id (**) pu (++) su)
17:10:23 <elliott> => Proxy (a (), b ()) -> r)
17:10:27 <elliott> class Algebraic t id (**) pu (++) su where
17:10:35 <elliott> p_algebraic :: ((Encoding (ADT t) id (**) pu (++) su) => r) -> r
17:11:52 <elliott> The third argument of `Algebraic' should have kind `(* -> *)
17:11:53 <elliott> but `**' has kind `* -> * -> *'
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17:31:45 <kallisti> oh nice the last section of this book is some group theory proofs
17:31:51 <kallisti> we won't get to cover that in class though
17:33:37 <kallisti> the first half of the book is... literally the same as in discrete math.
17:36:29 <kallisti> maybe I should take real analysis. er wait I think that requires calc 3 which I didn't take...
17:36:40 <kallisti> MAYBE I SHOULD MAJOR IN MATH?????
17:37:51 <itidus21> i think you need to find a polymath to be an apprentice for
17:37:56 <itidus21> but that could be a completely dumb idea
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17:39:50 <itidus21> although it is implicit that it could be a dumb idea, i bring attention to it because anyone who actually took that idea to heart could end up in the shadows of someone who doesn't want to be outshined
17:41:07 <itidus21> verily if you want to anticipate new paradigms you need to have some freedom
17:41:21 <itidus21> but i guess everyone needs some training to get started
17:42:19 <itidus21> i mean ahh why must i give advice
17:42:59 <itidus21> anyway, it is as true for academics as it is for sports that you get out what you put in
17:45:21 <itidus21> a polymath is an intellectual badass
17:45:38 <itidus21> the kind who have villages named after them
17:46:57 <itidus21> it could be argued that they are a jack of many trades
17:47:22 <itidus21> but i think there is some synergy they get from so many trades
17:47:46 <itidus21> wiki defines synergy as "Synergy may be defined as two or more things functioning together to produce a result not independently obtainable."
17:47:59 <itidus21> which fits perfectly with what i said
17:49:52 <itidus21> examples might be leonardo da vinci, gottfried leibniz
17:50:52 <itidus21> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_polymaths
17:52:59 <itidus21> to be fair it is more about the mind than the body, but some would argue that a strong mind requires a strong body
17:53:20 <fizzie> I want a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_polygons. You know, just famous polygons from around the world.
17:53:45 <fizzie> Okay, there is a "List of polygons, polyhedra and polytopes".
17:53:54 <fizzie> But it's just types of polygons, not individual famous ones.
17:54:31 <fizzie> Of course it does contain e.g. the great inverted snub icosidodecahedron, so it's got that going for it.
17:54:59 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_inverted_snub_icosidodecahedron
17:55:16 <fizzie> It's like a small cute hedgehog, except not quite.
17:55:24 <olsner> merge them into a "List of polygons, polyhedra, polymaths and polytopes"
17:55:59 <elliott> fizzie: That is my new favourite polyhedron.
17:56:27 <Sgeo> Things that have more than one poly- descriptor
17:59:56 <itidus21> im always struck by ideas.. im not sure whether saying them all is positive. this idea which just hit me due to reading a page wrong is a dictionary where every definition is a poem
18:00:23 <itidus21> not an example usage but literally a definition
18:01:03 <itidus21> this is the idea born of someone who owns so many dictionaries that he realizes they are useless
18:01:48 <itidus21> i suppose poetry would merely be a kind of sugar coating though for the definition
18:04:14 <zzo38> I should try to write the more class descriptions for Aberration Saver prestige class of D&D game, and write some of the spells which have not yet been written (such as Confuse Objects)
18:04:32 <itidus21> As Jorge Luis Borges says in the prologue to "El otro, el mismo": "It is often forgotten that (dictionaries) are artificial repositories, put together well after the languages they define. The roots of language are irrational and of a magical nature."
18:06:12 <zzo38> itidus21: O, I didn't see that. But, yes OK. But, there are constructed languages as well and they are difference
18:07:06 <itidus21> i got into a slight argument over lojban on new years eve
18:09:05 <itidus21> "The first Sanskrit dictionary, the Amarakośa, was written by Amara Sinha ca. 4th century CE. Written in verse, it listed around 10,000 words."
18:09:48 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/other_stuff/levels.tex
18:18:46 <itidus21> zzo38: is that a program or a tex document or both?
18:22:12 <zzo38> itidus21: A TeX document is also a program, so it will be both
18:23:25 <itidus21> i mean uhh.. the tex is just used as a markup language right?
18:23:29 <zzo38> itidus21: No, only the experience points needed for each level. The book only has up to level 20 but this one has as many as will fit on the page.
18:24:51 <zzo38> And there is still more room on the page, so I could add more columns, do you have idea what information to add on one page?
18:25:30 <itidus21> also i don't make for a good roleplayer.. i don't like the politics
18:26:32 <itidus21> the whole bit where one can make an ego investment in their character and then set up conditions of winning or losing
18:27:31 <itidus21> but roleplay especially online
18:27:53 <Vorpal> itidus21, I'm not familiar with what you mean
18:27:55 <itidus21> like "you have to be descriptive"
18:28:18 <zzo38> Well, we do try to be descriptive.
18:28:56 <Vorpal> itidus21, I mean with roleplaying online. In which type of game?
18:29:01 <itidus21> some people use roleplay as an escape from reality as i'm told.. but i can't make that leap
18:29:21 <itidus21> reality has too much gravity for me
18:29:54 <zzo38> I play as monster character... so, that is part of the escape from reality; but I also sometimes use actual physics and so on to resolve a spell, so therefore it is similar to reality even if it isn't
18:30:38 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.13749
18:31:34 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.30415
18:31:40 <Vorpal> itidus21, do you not read fantasy?
18:32:04 <itidus21> i haven't... i think that makes it extra difficult to play fantasy
18:32:04 <Vorpal> if you can enjoy fantasy novels then you can probably enjoy RPGs
18:32:22 <Vorpal> itidus21, try playing a non-online RPG?
18:32:34 <zzo38> And text adventure game is also a computer game similar to a role playing game.
18:32:36 <Vorpal> witcher 2 is rather good, but might be too dark for your tastes
18:33:29 <itidus21> i haven't been corrupted by exposure to the books in the sense that my idea of roleplay is still somewhat free from convention
18:33:41 <Vorpal> zzo38, text adventures usually annoy me. You have to try to guess the commands usually and also I can't make a clear map of the environment in my head.
18:33:45 <itidus21> but i have seen a lot of the types of roleplayers i describe chatting
18:34:05 <Vorpal> itidus21, "corrupted"?
18:34:12 <itidus21> its kind of funny the whole model of the world which have been developed around rpgs
18:34:44 <Vorpal> also eh, RPGs is just an interesting way to pass free the time for me.
18:34:49 <itidus21> each town has a tavern.. in this tavern adventurers sort of..
18:34:59 <Vorpal> itidus21, not really, that is a stereotype
18:35:02 <itidus21> im going to be wrong for a few liens
18:35:15 <Vorpal> itidus21, also you can have RPGs in other settings than fantasy
18:35:27 <Vorpal> fantasy is certainly the most common but sci-fi is rather common as well
18:35:29 <zzo38> Not always in D&D game and stuff, they don't always have a tavern, or whatever
18:35:34 <zzo38> They are all different
18:36:02 <Vorpal> itidus21, you could set an RPG in a contemporary environment easily
18:36:29 <zzo38> Do you like to play multi-class? Do you like to play as monster character? Do you like to do strange thing in game? Sometimes even the referee didn't know you were going to do that, and that make game interesting too?
18:36:47 <itidus21> i don't like competitive role playing anyway
18:36:58 <Vorpal> itidus21, consider Deus Ex: It is an FPS/RPG hybrid set into the relatively near future (something like 50 years or so)
18:37:12 <itidus21> i like cooperative because i have some neuroses which make it difficult to compete
18:37:36 <zzo38> Vorpal: Including, but not limited to, you; yes.
18:37:44 <Vorpal> zzo38, I tend to play computer RPGs mostly
18:37:47 <Ngevd> I'm in that palindromes pastelog a lot...
18:37:56 <Vorpal> zzo38, single player most of the time
18:38:02 <Ngevd> Just for "E, esoteric, ire to see"
18:38:03 <itidus21> zzo38: so rpgs in this sense are not referentially transparent
18:38:11 <zzo38> Computer RPGs are not real role playing games
18:38:22 <zzo38> itidus21: What do you mean by that?
18:38:35 <itidus21> i mean "Sometimes even the referee didn't know you were going to do that, and that make game interesting too?"
18:38:42 <Vorpal> zzo38, how are they less real than an RPG on pen and paper?
18:38:55 <zzo38> Vorpal: I mean it isn't a role playing game
18:38:58 <Vorpal> zzo38, NWN even uses D&D ruleset for example
18:39:08 <zzo38> That isn't the point
18:39:14 <Vorpal> zzo38, what /is/ the point then?
18:39:21 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:39:21 <itidus21> i understand the idea i think, im just playing dumb to flush out the topic
18:39:37 <itidus21> but haveing said that i havent done a proper game of d&d
18:40:28 <Vorpal> itidus21, anyway, I quite like computer RPGs. They move at a faster pace than pen & paper RPGs.
18:40:30 <itidus21> just that i dont quite need the concept explained
18:41:07 <itidus21> basically, anything made in japan
18:41:08 <elliott> Vorpal: Surely even you can see the dissimlarity of a role-playing game in which very little role-playing is involved.
18:41:39 <Vorpal> elliott, well that varies between different RPGs. Especially for online RPGs there can be quite a bit or role playing going on
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18:42:02 <Vorpal> elliott, and pen&paper RPG can easily devolve into a min-max style game play
18:42:12 <Vorpal> elliott, so no, the difference isn't that large at all
18:42:18 <itidus21> japan have this way of japanifying everything that hits their shores and they certainly managed it for the rpg
18:42:23 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, and pen&paper RPG can easily devolve into a min-max style game play
18:42:32 <Vorpal> itidus21, anyway you might like Deus Ex: Human Revolution, it is set into the near future, it is a RPG/FPS hybrid but it deals with interesting moral questions.
18:42:49 <Vorpal> elliott, not really. Ever played pen&paper D&D?
18:43:03 <itidus21> Vorpal: yeah my brother has that... i saw him play it.. pretty kick ass world simulation
18:43:09 <Vorpal> I have once. And once I played a pen&paper RPG with GURPS
18:43:20 <Vorpal> itidus21, the texture quality in that game is pretty shit though.
18:43:52 <Vorpal> itidus21, it is a nice game. But it is obviously a console port.
18:44:28 <Vorpal> itidus21, if you play it on a large computer monitor near you you see things in much more detail than on a TV further away
18:44:40 <Vorpal> itidus21, and the result is that it is obviously a console port
18:44:49 <itidus21> im not fussy... my video card sucks
18:45:05 <Vorpal> then it might not be playable. Who knows.
18:45:08 <itidus21> i have intentions to upgrade my video card, however, i still doubt my pc can easily handle it
18:45:14 -!- augur has joined.
18:45:19 <Vorpal> itidus21, how much ram and which CPU?
18:45:40 <Vorpal> itidus21, I ran it from a slow HDD, only issue was that the loading time was like >half a minute
18:45:49 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus21, can you just type something into IRC for me?
18:45:56 <Vorpal> itidus21, when possible I play games from my SSD
18:46:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, why on earth
18:46:34 <itidus21> is it because he keeps saying my name over and over?
18:46:49 <Vorpal> oh the highlight thing, sorry, used to high volue channels
18:47:03 <elliott> Yes, it's most definitely the highlight thing.
18:47:19 <Vorpal> will try to remember it isn't needed
18:47:32 <itidus21> Usage: IGNORE <mask> <types..> <options..>
18:47:32 <itidus21> mask - host mask to ignore, eg: *!*@*.aol.com
18:47:32 <itidus21> types - types of data to ignore, one or all of:
18:47:32 <itidus21> PRIV, CHAN, NOTI, CTCP, DCC, INVI, ALL
18:48:03 <Vorpal> I think Phantom_Hoover is being a jerk here
18:48:10 <itidus21> ive done it cos i have to see where this is going :P
18:48:21 -!- Gregor has set topic: I'm not a boat, I'm a really, really beautiful cheese grater | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
18:48:30 <Vorpal> you could easily just say you did it and not do it
18:48:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal is unbearable, and you haven't been around long enough to fully understand his unbearability.
18:48:39 -!- MSleep has changed nick to MDude.
18:48:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh shut up
18:48:53 <Ngevd> Sqrt(-Garfield) 926
18:49:16 <Vorpal> and I think Phantom_Hoover is while not unbearable, quite close. :P
18:49:22 <Vorpal> and he is also quite a jerk
18:50:01 <Sgeo> I think what I want is Trex
18:50:10 <itidus21> its not that i don't like mathematics.. its just that my knowledge of coding is way out of step with my knowledge of math
18:50:12 <Vorpal> anyway, itidus21, if you have a reasonably modern CPU (say core 2 duo or such) and like 4 GB RAM then you can probably play most games.
18:50:20 <Ngevd> Phantom_Hoover, am I still on your ignore list?
18:50:20 <Vorpal> (given an upgraded GPU)
18:50:27 <itidus21> even though i'm not a good coder.. i'm an atrocious mathematician
18:50:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Ngevd, no, although you're on probation until you renounce Smith.
18:50:48 <Vorpal> Ngevd, who is this smith?
18:51:18 <Ngevd> Matt Smith, actor of the eleventh (not counting Hammer films and audiobooks, etc) Doctor from the TV Serieses Doctor Who
18:51:42 <Vorpal> and I guess PH didn't like him
18:51:45 <itidus21> Intel(R) Core(TM)2 CPU 6300 @ 1.86GHz
18:51:47 <elliott> That gets you another ignore.
18:52:05 <Vorpal> well okay, ram is quite cheap though
18:52:08 <Ngevd> elliott, I was emphasising the plural-ness for effect
18:52:16 <Ngevd> Because I am a /poet/
18:52:54 <Vorpal> the CPU is probably at the lower end as well.
18:53:26 <Vorpal> but I don't think Deus Ex: HR would cause much of a problem for that, you might not be able to run at max settings
18:53:51 <Vorpal> check the official system requirements though, and note that they probably err on the side of caution to avoid pissed off customers
18:54:36 <itidus21> i am actually so awful at math that i can't transpose algebra expressions made up only of the alphabet of "=", "+", "*", "/", "-", "x", "^", "0", "1", "2", "3", "4", "5", "6", "7", "8", "9"
18:54:51 <itidus21> i can get some of them.. but the problem is i don't get all of them
18:54:57 <Vorpal> (system requirements is not an exact science, apart from the required disk space everything is pretty hard to calculate and you can't really test on every possible configuration)
18:55:18 <Vorpal> itidus21, try base 2, that reduces the alphabet ;P
18:55:40 <itidus21> thats the best way i can explain the level i'm at
18:56:38 <Vorpal> I was wondering about that too.
18:56:40 <itidus21> trans as in change.. not sure about the pose
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18:57:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, anyway if you don't like me why don't /you/ simply ignore me? Rather than try to get other people to do so?
18:57:35 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus21, that's pretty damn difficult in the general case.
18:57:37 <itidus21> i think i mean rewrite to x=[...]
18:58:16 <kallisti> question: is a set of all possible strings in an alphabet of N symbols isomorphic to the set of all strings in ALL possible alphabets?
18:58:51 <monqy> what do you mean isomorphic
18:58:57 <itidus21> Phantom_Hoover: but even for expressions with only 1 variable..
18:59:14 <monqy> and what do you mean all possible alphabets
19:00:47 <kallisti> well I mean I know a finite string with a finite N-sized alphabet has a bijective function to any other set of finite strings with a finite M-sized alphabet.
19:01:05 <kallisti> but I wasn't sure if there was a bijective function from that set of strings to "all the other finite-alphabet strings ever"
19:01:34 <Ngevd> I'm pretty sure infinite-length strings are uncountable
19:01:53 <elliott> By the way, that http://i.imgur.com/pAy4z.png review that I think Deewiant linked is fake: http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/A15T4V4O8P803T/ref=cm_pdp_rev_all?ie=UTF8&sort_by=MostRecentReview :(
19:01:59 <itidus21> so, i am here with only an elementary knowledge of math(s) and so it's more than a little strange
19:02:29 <elliott> "I modified this to fit on my oxygen tank and it ended up causing a small fire. Do not buy" "This connector is terrible. I need to connect a SATA connector to a old style molex 4 pin CD drive, but this connector does the opposite. Piece of junk and a waste of money" "I took a job that required me to make device drivers for some kind of weird thing with some blinking lights on it. I never made a driver before, but I am good at using Office and stu
19:02:29 <elliott> ff so I told them I knew C++ and read a bit about it and was able to BS the interview. So I got this book and tried to understand how to make my drivers, but I couldn't and I got fired after 6 weeks. NOT RECOMMENDED for driver makers."
19:02:38 <elliott> "Nothing is more fun than getting trashed and ripping around the lake on my boat. This song reminds me of that!"
19:02:44 <kallisti> but I guess it makes sense considering that binary can be used to represent all other strings.
19:02:46 <elliott> Actually I suppose they could just be a very strange person who also apparently flies.
19:02:54 <monqy> B. Meowsic Keyboard
19:02:56 -!- pikhq has joined.
19:02:58 <kallisti> I just don't know the specific mapping
19:03:01 <itidus21> i didnt actually anticipate math(s) at all on the topic of esolangs.. i had gotten this far without ever encountering the theory of computation
19:03:09 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
19:03:49 <elliott> itidus21: This was a place devoid of LIGHT and REASON before we all grew up and became REAL* MATHEMATICIANS*
19:03:57 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, anyway if you don't like me why don't /you/ simply ignore me? Rather than try to get other people to do so?
19:04:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, if you ever talk to me again I hope you answer that question :)
19:04:34 <Ngevd> Vorpal, consider that he may be ignoring you
19:04:36 <Vorpal> (if you don't then I will just assume you did in fact finally ignore me)
19:04:40 <kallisti> Vorpal: because he's better than you, obviously.
19:05:00 <Vorpal> Ngevd, my next line took care of that possibility yes
19:05:15 <Vorpal> kallisti, so just because someone is better than someone else they should be arrogant about it?
19:05:20 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:05:21 <Vorpal> kallisti, that doesn't seem right to me
19:05:33 <Vorpal> Ngevd, okay that is a third possibility
19:05:39 <Ngevd> Maybe Edinburgh has blown up in a ball of fire
19:05:39 <kallisti> Vorpal: well, in #esoteric, that seems to be the rule.
19:05:55 <itidus21> elliott: next you will probably tell me that this is a room of novices not fit to clean the shoes of the leading guys in the field
19:05:59 <Vorpal> kallisti, anyway I don't think he is better than me. Better at some topics, sure. Worse at other ones probably.
19:06:06 <kallisti> Vorpal: well I didn't really mean that...
19:06:06 <itidus21> are the so called leading guys in the field the ones with the biggest supercomputers
19:06:15 <kallisti> it was kind of not totally serious. I don't have a metric with which to value the worth of human beings.
19:06:17 <Vorpal> kallisti, but I don't think a person can be intrinsically better than another one
19:07:04 <Vorpal> kallisti, fair enough, but I think the implications of it being taken seriously are worth considering
19:07:11 <itidus21> eh.. im trolling at this point
19:07:14 <kallisti> Vorpal: yes that was kind of my point.
19:07:55 <itidus21> the way i see it.. you can tell what the state of the art is by what the general populace has access to
19:07:58 <Vorpal> <itidus21> are the so called leading guys in the field the ones with the biggest supercomputers <-- not really no. Supercomputers aren't required for esolangs
19:08:42 <Vorpal> <itidus21> the way i see it.. you can tell what the state of the art is by what the general populace has access to <-- for what? Computers?
19:08:43 <Ngevd> Esolangs are more of an art than a mathsy thing
19:08:43 <elliott> <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, if you ever talk to me again I hope you answer that question :)
19:08:43 <itidus21> i don't think that the esoteric knowledge held by military mad scientists really is very practical
19:09:06 <Vorpal> elliott, well obviously if he timed out I will agree he didn't receive it
19:09:10 <elliott> Vorpal: You really need to stop using :) like that all the time, it gets tired even quicker than usual when you do it all the time.
19:09:33 <elliott> kallisti: I thought you were ignoring me.
19:10:04 <itidus21> basically, i think if most people don't have access to it then it can be ignored
19:10:27 <kallisti> monqy: monqy denied access to the meaning of access.
19:10:29 <Vorpal> itidus21, very much depend on what you are trying to accomplish.
19:10:36 <itidus21> monqy: im sure bill gates has a secret tech room
19:10:48 <monqy> i too have a secret tech room
19:10:53 <Vorpal> anyway I need to sleep. Exam tomorrow. Computer graphics. Quite a fun topic.
19:11:19 -!- roper has joined.
19:11:41 <HackEgo> roper: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
19:12:29 <kallisti> what are the chances of me learning group theory in a topology class?
19:12:58 <Ngevd> Mathematical or geographic topology?
19:13:29 <kallisti> that's basically "I don't know"
19:13:36 <Ngevd> I reckon roper's actually slightly further ahead in time to us
19:13:59 <monqy> roper lives in bizarro world
19:16:17 <kallisti> blessed hashref of blessed globrefs
19:16:51 <lambdabot> "!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...
19:17:47 <itidus21> roper: i just want to clarify this is the room of esoteric computer programming languages, not occult esoteric
19:18:11 <itidus21> you may know this im just making doubly clear so your time is not wasted
19:18:27 <elliott> `addquote <roper> ioihgfdddf
19:18:41 <elliott> `addquote <roper> rephtrase
19:18:52 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
19:19:12 <Ngevd> ^ul (~:S~:^)(!):S~:^
19:19:12 <fungot> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ...too much output!
19:19:23 <monqy> we should implement
19:20:21 <Ngevd> Auto top optimised?
19:20:59 <Ngevd> "yes" is probably what you want
19:21:34 <roper> sumamoito is the most inrfficient
19:22:42 <elliott> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/w/index.php?title=Vowels&curid=4086&diff=26989&oldid=24085
19:22:45 <roper> on screen keyvoard
19:22:50 <Deewiant> elliott: So how'd the SMT'ing go
19:22:51 <elliott> new vowels for new breakfast homesteads
19:23:17 <elliott> Deewiant: It got into some kind of loop; I think my gcd definition was wrong or something
19:23:21 <elliott> Maybe I'll look at it some more tomorrow
19:23:53 <roper> i have some optimizations alteady
19:24:19 <roper> like add on hardware
19:24:27 <Ngevd> In an esoteric programming language, optimization is not recommended
19:24:29 <elliott> (satisfiability modulo theories)
19:24:37 <kallisti> Ngevd: I am completely disagree
19:24:58 <roper> yrs but we ned tine final implementation
19:25:14 <Ngevd> Well, adding on of features to make shorter source code beyond what is necessary for Turing-completeness
19:25:19 <Ngevd> Unless you're befunge
19:25:38 <Ngevd> I have controversial opinions
19:25:43 <roper> source code unchanged
19:25:43 <ais523> Ngevd: you're discussing tarpits there
19:25:47 <ais523> not all esolangs are tarpits
19:26:08 <ais523> but most of the better ones are, because good esolangs are there to convey a new idea, and a tarpit's usually the clearest way to do that
19:26:14 <Ngevd> SumaMoito is, however, a tarpit
19:26:22 <Ngevd> "SumaMoito is a family of languages that aims to include minimal Turing-complete languages with a particular style."
19:26:27 <kallisti> ais523: Haskell isn't very tarpitty. maybe in Core.
19:26:37 <kallisti> ais523: and also conveys some new ideas.
19:26:41 <roper> eg hardware-add ÷÷ sumamoito add
19:27:03 <ais523> hmm, are any of the main ideas in Haskell new in Haskell? I thought Haskell was busy codifying them and using them well, not inventing them
19:27:17 <kallisti> I don't know where they originate, except for ML.
19:27:46 <kallisti> Haskell is kind of a synthesis of already existing ideas, I guess.
19:28:03 <ais523> IIRC the reason Haskell was invented was that so many people were trying to make lazy functional langs all at once
19:28:06 <ais523> and they decided to join forces
19:28:06 <olsner> Ngevd: yes, Haskell is based on FORTRAN
19:28:18 <ais523> (not sure if "pure" was in there from the start, or added later)
19:28:25 <elliott> basically pure non-strict languages were just coming into existence
19:28:32 <elliott> and everyone had their own dialect
19:28:37 <elliott> there was miranda and i think lazy ml etc.
19:28:37 <roper> sumamoito add is on hardware add is slightly more than ologn
19:28:42 <elliott> thus the haskell committee
19:28:57 <ais523> elliott: I'm actually thinking that we need a pure total functional language
19:29:04 <elliott> ais523: the typeclass system is a haskell innovation though I think
19:29:10 <ais523> maybe with the ability to use partiality under controlled circumstances
19:29:16 <elliott> and probably Haskell's most prominent added feature
19:29:20 <elliott> ais523: meh, that already exists
19:29:28 <ais523> sure, total languages can't express anything, but the things they can they're better for
19:30:05 <roper> transform languahe features to match hardware fearures
19:30:07 <ais523> and if a language is both total and pure, evaluation strategy is irrelevant
19:30:17 <ais523> you can use call-by-telephone and it still works just fine
19:30:23 <kallisti> interestingly, some definitions of weak typing count ad-hoc polymorphism as weak typing.
19:30:31 <elliott> ais523: i'm not sure whether you think you're stating non-obvious things or not :P
19:30:56 <ais523> elliott: I think it's obvious, and yet people don't care about it anyway
19:31:16 <kallisti> roper: yes compilers that compile to machine languages are good at that.
19:31:43 <roper> but collapse all language features?
19:31:50 <kallisti> ais523: what about call-by-nothing evaluation?
19:31:56 <kallisti> where you do nothing isntead of evaluate.
19:31:57 <Deewiant> ais523: Did you settle on whether Funge-98 is an esolang?
19:32:01 <roper> we nedd an uncollapsed language
19:32:14 <ais523> Deewiant: I think it isn't, but I also think I can't justify my claim in terms that other people will understand
19:32:19 <ais523> so I'm not going to bother trying to argue the point
19:32:21 <kallisti> roper: depends on what you mean by collapse
19:32:41 <roper> reduce to hardware operations
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19:32:45 <kallisti> roper: compiling a language doesn't remove its features, it just implements them a certain way.
19:32:58 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
19:33:11 <elliott> ais523: I think Funge-98 is an esolang, FWIW (and I don't think it's particularly esoteric myself).
19:33:24 <Deewiant> What's the definition of an esolang you generally use?
19:33:37 <elliott> Deewiant: Who, me or ais523?
19:33:47 <ais523> Deewiant: a language for which writing a fully-featured standard library would be a waste of time
19:33:54 <Deewiant> elliott: Both, I think, which is why I didn't address it.
19:34:00 <elliott> ais523: Terrible definition IMO
19:34:03 <roper> line wrap not allowed. q
19:34:16 <kallisti> a language for which defining what esolang means would be a waste of time.
19:34:19 <ais523> elliott: or, not so much waste of time, but people not thinking it's necessary
19:35:00 <Deewiant> ais523: So basically "a language which is hardly used at all, or only used as a joke" or something thereabout?
19:35:00 <Ngevd> A language designed to entertain rather than to be used for any practical task is my definition
19:35:18 <elliott> Deewiant: Well, obviously idiosyncrasy relative to the generalised status quo factors into it, as well as novelty and generally not being optimised for /use/ in design -- but the main factor I use is authorial intent, because it's inherently subjective and there are good reasons for going by it.
19:35:20 <itidus21> what if its a language designed for only 1 user?
19:35:28 <roper> o am drinking water
19:35:34 <olsner> I think entirely made-for-practical-use languages can be esolangs too, e.g. bancstar
19:35:44 <ais523> elliott: but I declare every language I invent an esolang, regardless of what it's for
19:35:47 <elliott> Deewiant: e.g., Ursula, however weird it is by any metric, is not an esolang, because it was not intended as an esolang, and because it was designed for being used
19:35:49 <ais523> hmm, would you consider OIL an esolang?
19:35:51 <olsner> but of course it's a kind of failure for a practical language to get that status
19:35:54 <ais523> to me, it's just a DSL
19:36:26 <elliott> ais523: (a) Intent isn't quite declaration, and I don't necessarily take declarations I think are unreliable at face value. (b) I know barely nothing about OIL.
19:36:29 <ais523> itidus21: domain-specific language
19:36:36 <olsner> hmm, those could be called "accidental esolangs" perhaps?
19:36:53 <ais523> elliott: http://c.intercal.org.uk/manual/dlbvn76f.htm#Optimizer-Idiom-Language
19:37:02 <elliott> Deewiant: But Befunge-98 is, both for reasons of idiosyncrasy (its syntax and very oddball tied-to-syntax control structure), and very clear intent of esoteric nature.
19:37:03 <ais523> it's a language invented for the purpose of implementing INTERCAL optimisers
19:37:11 <ais523> it's pretty good at that, and really bad at anything else
19:37:13 <elliott> Even if Befunge-98 is nicer to program in than Ursula.
19:37:22 <kallisti> esolangs are languages that make defining what esolang means difficult.
19:37:42 <Deewiant> elliott: that's the kind of definition I'd use as well.
19:37:45 <roper> wesay this is equivalent to
19:37:52 <elliott> ais523: Glancing at it and combining with what I know, I wouldn't say it's an esolang, but I'd say it's clearly intended to be fairly weird.
19:38:00 <roper> and we optimisr to
19:38:36 * kallisti has seen some people claim that C is an esolang.
19:38:38 <elliott> Deewiant: Another good reason to go by what the author says is that it avoids offending authors of serious languages when you call their work something with the connotations esolang has, and avoids offending authors of esolangs when you dare to suggest their work doesn't meet the criteria :P
19:38:58 <elliott> People like to say "lolololol <language> is an esolang".
19:39:02 <elliott> Especially Perl, Java, etc.
19:39:07 <Ngevd> I first encountered Haskell on this channel
19:39:15 <roper> we transform things to dgffgg
19:39:19 <Deewiant> elliott: I might say that "not being optimised for /use/ in design" counts as authorial intent, though.
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19:39:28 <Deewiant> As long as that includes all kinds of use.
19:39:45 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
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19:39:50 <elliott> Deewiant: True, but I meant more direct intent; e.g. putting something on esolangs.org, or obvious presentation of the language as a serious tool on a website.
19:39:51 <ais523> elliott: so would you say LOLCODE is intended to be an esolang?
19:39:55 <Gregor> ^^^ Herp durp I call non-esolagns eso too
19:39:56 <Deewiant> E.g. BANCStar is not an esolang, it's just an ASCII encoding of something that people have evidently unfortunately programmed in.
19:40:02 <ais523> I can't believe its authors had heard of esolangs, otherwise they wouldn't have invented something so banal
19:40:14 <ais523> Deewiant: BANCStar's basically an asm
19:40:18 <elliott> ais523: I don't think the inventors of LOLCODE are competent enough to intend one way or another.
19:40:30 <ais523> elliott: that's pretty much my argument
19:40:34 <elliott> ais523: But I definitely recall the author didn't know of esolangs.
19:40:40 <kallisti> for Gregor an esolang is any language that's not C, assembly, C, cxx (???), forth, or sh
19:40:53 <ais523> gah: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Vowels
19:40:55 <elliott> LOLCODE probably is an esolang based on its sliver of silly syntax, but it's a really bad one.
19:40:55 <Deewiant> I would say that LOLCODE is intended as an esolang.
19:41:17 <Deewiant> Even if the author(s) didn't know the term or other such languages, it's clearly got a similar intent.
19:41:26 <fizzie> ^ul ((!)S:^):^ it's the age of minimalism, simplify!
19:41:26 <fungot> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ...too much output!
19:41:30 <elliott> Deewiant: BANCStar is sort of an honorary esolang, in that it doesn't really count as one, but who the hell else is going to take it under their wing?
19:41:34 <ais523> the category of languages that includes Vowels was done better by Sorted!
19:41:41 <ais523> which will probably never be beaten in that category
19:42:03 <Deewiant> elliott: It's just an assembly language, IMO.
19:42:17 <elliott> Deewiant: Yeah, it's more of a community sense in which it counts as one than a language sense :P
19:42:19 <ais523> you'd probably discover that x86 microcode is just as insane
19:42:26 <elliott> Deewiant: It lacks the mnemonics to be an assembly language, though, I think.
19:42:29 <ais523> or, hmm, it probably differs between manufacturers
19:42:31 <ais523> but you know what I mean
19:42:34 <kallisti> esolangs are languages that are members of the set of esolangs.
19:42:38 <Deewiant> elliott: Then you can call it an ASCII-encoded object format.
19:42:54 <elliott> Anyway, I don't really care all that much whether something is an esolang or not; the main thing it's relevant for is to know how to categorise articles on the wiki.
19:43:29 <ais523> "Sorted! is bilingual. It can understand both english and german code. To my knowledge, Sorted! is the only programming language that can do this, in the world." <--- someone should mention INTERCAL
19:43:50 <roper> a sumamoito loop is optimised by some add
19:43:52 <fizzie> Gregor: What's EgoBot's '!forth', gforth?
19:43:54 <Deewiant> If "the wiki" is the esolang wiki, then isn't being on the wiki something that makes it an esolang? :-P Except for joke articles like Perl (which should be categorized as a joke article or equivalent).
19:44:51 <elliott> Deewiant: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Forth
19:45:16 <elliott> Deewiant: The question of whether only esolangs can be articles has been brought up before; there's consensus that the wiki is for articles of relevant interest to esoteric programmers.
19:45:28 <elliott> Deewiant: That includes oddball things like Joy and whatnot.
19:45:33 <Deewiant> elliott: I'd have a "category: non-esoteric", then.
19:45:37 <EgoBot> \ in file included from *OS command line*:-1 \ /tmp/input.1112:1: Undefined word \ >>>gforth<<< type \ Backtrace: \ $7F2761A86A68 throw \ $7F2761A9CCE0 no.extensions \ $7F2761A86D28 interpreter-notfound1
19:45:47 <elliott> Also http://esolangs.org/wiki/Chalcraft-Greene_train_track_automaton.
19:45:54 <elliott> Deewiant: Negated categories? Nah.
19:46:01 <elliott> Deewiant: [[Category:Not 1999]]
19:46:04 <itidus21> i dont understand how befunge98 could possibly not be esoteric
19:46:18 <Deewiant> elliott: Well, "category: esoteric" would be fine as well, just more work to keep up-to-date. :-P
19:46:33 <Deewiant> And also seemingly redundant with the topic of the site.
19:46:33 <elliott> Deewiant: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Languages
19:46:45 <MDude> It would be nice to be able ot perform boolan operations on categories in wikis.
19:46:47 <Deewiant> elliott: That doesn't say "esoteric languages".
19:46:59 <elliott> Deewiant: Yes, but it's only for esolangs, just like Forth was misplaced in [[Category:Before 1993]].
19:47:12 <elliott> Adding "esoteric" to everything would be too many words. :p
19:47:36 <EgoBot> \ in file included from *OS command line*:-1 \ /tmp/input.1367:1: Undefined word \ >>>hi<<< \ Backtrace: \ $7FF11B654A68 throw \ $7FF11B66ACE0 no.extensions \ $7FF11B654D28 interpreter-notfound1
19:47:36 <Deewiant> elliott: Put it in the description of that category, then. :-P
19:48:07 <itidus21> here is my question for you.. would you pay someone a salary to code in befunge98?
19:48:17 <Deewiant> I'd do it but I can't be bothered to make a wiki account just for that, and I don't want to do it anonymously.
19:48:48 <elliott> Deewiant: Yeah, if you did it anonymously your vital contribution of "Esoteric" would be lost to the sands of time.
19:49:00 <elliott> It might even not end up on your tombstone.
19:49:14 <roper> i only need bread and water
19:49:24 <Deewiant> elliott: Something like that, yes.
19:49:26 <elliott> Actually "ESOTERIC" would be a badass epitaph.
19:49:29 <fizzie> !forth : gfv s" gforth" environment? if type then ; gfv
19:49:48 <elliott> Deewiant: Anyway, maybe tomorrow.
19:49:53 <Ngevd> There should be more esolang collabs
19:50:09 <fizzie> (Didn't notice it was an environment-query thing and not a word.)
19:50:47 <Deewiant> elliott: What's happening today?
19:51:17 <roper> the end of the world approaches
19:51:57 <roper> 1 second per second
19:52:54 <Deewiant> elliott: Want to tell me about the bleeding edge when it comes to testing C libraries? Anything QuickCheck-like for C? Is TAP still the harness of choice?
19:53:08 <elliott> Why do we travel through time at 1 second per second?, page 1 http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread551324/pg1
19:53:11 <fizzie> !forth s" gforth" environment? [if] type [then] \ simplify!
19:53:23 <elliott> Deewiant: You're picking me due to my inexperience, right?
19:53:34 <elliott> Deewiant: Something like QuickCheck seems ill-suited to C.
19:53:38 <elliott> Not many C functions are pure.
19:53:42 <elliott> Fuzz testing seems like the closest thing.
19:53:46 <fizzie> (Now it doesn't need to be in a separate dummy word just because if is a compile-only word.)
19:54:04 <elliott> fizzie: Now implement Befunge.
19:54:22 <fizzie> elliott: I have a gforth interpreter (for -93) already, but it won't fit on one line.
19:54:23 <elliott> Wow, TAP dates back to 1987.
19:54:31 <elliott> fizzie: Yes, that's why you have to do it again.
19:54:46 <Deewiant> Fuzz testing is pretty much the same thing.
19:54:48 <fizzie> It probably has bitrotted away anyway.
19:54:48 <elliott> Deewiant: Oh! There's Falderal. :)
19:55:04 <elliott> (http://catseye.tc/projects/falderal/)
19:55:07 <fizzie> Also it asks for which file to load. But maybe I could hardcore an interesting Befunge-93 program in. Are there any?
19:55:21 <Deewiant> I'm just wondering about good software for doing it, not just "cat /dev/random | test program".
19:55:53 <fizzie> Man, be.fs is like the worstest. The 2003 fizzie should be shot.
19:56:14 <elliott> fizzie: He was cool!!! he used lowercase
19:56:28 <fizzie> I can see that, all the comments in this are in lowercase.
19:56:55 <elliott> Deewiant: I bet you're not even *considering* Falderal. :p
19:57:15 <Deewiant> elliott: "doctests for DSLs" isn't really what I'm after. :-P
19:57:37 <elliott> Deewiant: Well, you could make it more-or-less work like TAP except slightly awkwarder. :p
19:58:20 <Deewiant> So, extra work to do something in an awkwarder way than an alternative... I'm not considering it any more now, at least.
19:58:43 <elliott> Deewiant: Has anyone ever told you you're BOERING?
19:59:14 <Deewiant> elliott: Hey, you could be my fuzzer. Write me a battery of Funge-Space tests.
20:00:00 <elliott> Deewiant: I'm not entirely sure how you would fuzz-test a fungespace.
20:01:17 <elliott> Deewiant: I'm not entirely sure how you would test a fungespace. I guess you could do read string -> do operations -> check string-rendered result, but...
20:01:37 <elliott> Deewiant: You should prove it correct.
20:02:17 <Deewiant> I was thinking along the lines of doing random writes, some of which come as groups forming patterns (so it's not just individual writes all over the place), and pairing each write with a read, which need not come immediately after the write (again random), as long as all writes are paired with a read. (Overlapping writes should discard the previous read somehow, or something.)
20:03:33 <elliott> Deewiant: Too much structure; I'd do load random string -> do random write operations -> render to string -> check against trivial (slow) ref impl.
20:03:38 <elliott> Deewiant: I mean, the rendering part will already test the reading operations.
20:04:28 <Deewiant> It needs some structure or it won't catch some things that could be wrong. :-P (And have been wrong, in CCBI's implementation.)
20:04:39 <olsner> hmm, so someone should make the funge spec executable
20:05:31 <elliott> Deewiant: What could that miss? I mean, with enough samples...
20:05:39 <elliott> olsner: It's called Mycology.
20:06:14 <Deewiant> elliott: Well, depends on how you do the randomness. Is it "generate three 32-bit integers and write the third to the coordinates specified by the first two"? :-P
20:06:58 <roper> can I define to- hardware optimization?
20:06:59 <elliott> Deewiant: That, a few thousand times. Except probably restrict the range so you're likely to hit the pre-initialised data.
20:07:10 <elliott> I suppose that doesn't test for things like possible overflow, but you could do "edge" tests separately.
20:07:39 <Deewiant> elliott: I guess one could generate a random offset to load the original data to.
20:07:57 <Deewiant> Which could then be biased to be near the edges at least some of the time.
20:08:16 <elliott> Deewiant: Man, who even cares, just release the damn thing already.
20:08:20 <roper> assign a name for each hardware operation
20:08:31 <fizzie> Deewiant: Statistical models of fungespace write/read behaviour learned from some of the high-profile mission-critical large-scale Befunge programs (the sort of stuff eBay, facebook, Google use), then used to generate streams of operations.
20:08:50 <roper> assing some or more codes for each name
20:09:04 <elliott> It's only "facebook" in the logotype.
20:09:08 <fizzie> elliott: I confused it with fREenODE, sorry.
20:09:11 <roper> transform from/to them and other
20:10:15 <Deewiant> elliott: But anyway, the kind of stuff that wouldn't catch is e.g. "write to x, x+8, x+16, and now read x+8" (something similar to this was broken in CCBI once; not this simplest case, I think, but closely similar).
20:10:20 <fizzie> On a scale from -10 to 0.
20:10:31 <elliott> Deewiant: Sure it would; x+8 would be read in the ->string conversion.
20:10:51 <monqy> one day i hope to be negative drunk
20:10:56 <Deewiant> elliott: But that precise sequence of writes?
20:11:06 <elliott> Deewiant: Well, it's fuzz testing.
20:11:13 <elliott> Deewiant: There's no intelligent design.
20:11:35 <elliott> Deewiant: Anyway, just work on sufficiently small fungespaces that you can exhaust a lot of the searchspaces? e.g. Doing something over 2^32 coordinates is easy.
20:12:33 <roper> a %% almost-from-top
20:13:03 <Deewiant> elliott: I suppose I can resign and leave the possibility that a lot of special cases will be broken at release. :-P
20:13:42 <kallisti> it would be interesting to implement a fungespace on something that's far more parallel than a traditional CPU
20:14:26 <elliott> That wouldn't really be interesting.
20:14:33 <elliott> You don't really access them concurrently.
20:15:42 <Deewiant> ("in ATHR": the new "in Feather"?)
20:16:39 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:17:04 <fizzie> Deewiant: It has the sibling "in NSCK" for anything networking-related.
20:17:46 <Deewiant> fizzie: I'll have to remember that one.
20:18:18 <monqy> roper: maybe you should charge
20:18:24 <monqy> ; optomize your battery%
20:18:30 <Sgeo> What is a WA game style doing here?
20:18:31 <roper> no, I wont until off
20:18:38 <monqy> but then it will off
20:19:04 <monqy> what about all the poor datas
20:19:05 <elliott> Sgeo: Ropers date back to Worms 2, you uncultured plebeian.
20:19:23 <roper> I hope they will stay
20:19:33 * Sgeo installs Hedgewars due to not having his WA.iso handy
20:20:10 <fizzie> Deewiant: It's like how fungot will do IPv6, server names instead of just IP, and HTTP requests "in NSCK". (Never mind most of those aren't actually NSCK-dependant at all, except the IPv6 thing.)
20:20:11 <fungot> fizzie: i fully endorse the proposal for a new com in the fruit and vegetable sector is the one area where europe can play an important role to play in relation to the content of his speech. will the commissioner hold new talks with the sudanese government. i hope that before they join. it is against that background it is totally disgraceful to claim that the court has given updated information on its application.
20:20:20 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:20:59 <elliott> fizzie: You should make a BABL to accelerate babble-generation.
20:21:06 <elliott> Bonus: Tower of Babel allusion.
20:21:38 <fizzie> The module player library?
20:22:51 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:23:12 <Deewiant> elliott: How about benchmarks, what's "criterion for C"?
20:23:15 <fizzie> I seem to recall that some MikMod's XM effects were a bit dubiously implemented.
20:23:15 <Sgeo> I assume hedgewars uses modules for music
20:23:29 <elliott> Deewiant: You know the great thing about Haskell?
20:23:35 <elliott> Deewiant: All those wonderful tools you don't get with C.
20:24:07 <Sgeo> It's a bit shaky
20:24:23 <fizzie> Sgeo: How retro. Also fmod would have more street cred. (And a worse license.)
20:24:46 <fizzie> I think fmod is by scenesters.
20:24:51 <elliott> Deewiant: Anyway, just write your own thing or whatever.
20:25:06 <elliott> I don't think C people "outsource" such "trivial" things.
20:25:23 <fizzie> They seem far more businessy than what they did.
20:25:40 -!- augur has joined.
20:25:43 <Deewiant> It's true that C programmers tend to be far too NIH-y.
20:26:08 <fizzie> Anyway, they've got that minifmod thing that does XM playback in 5k, they must have *some* intro background.
20:26:10 <elliott> Deewiant: Well, the language kind of forces you to.
20:26:21 <elliott> Deewiant: There's not really much in the way of abstraction. :p
20:26:55 <Deewiant> It doesn't force you to, it just makes it a bit tricky to not.
20:28:01 <elliott> Deewiant: Well, you have to resort to cpp for anything beyond the most basic abstraction.
20:28:11 <elliott> Deewiant: Which gives you all the abstractional power of raw text substitution.
20:28:18 <Deewiant> But oh well, I guess NIH + ministat is the way to go.
20:29:36 <Deewiant> https://github.com/codemac/ministat
20:30:11 <elliott> Deewiant: Write yer own!!!!
20:30:20 <elliott> Be sure to replicate it feature-for-feature.
20:30:54 <fizzie> Deewiant: Confidence intervals are like so bourgeoisie. (And frequentist!)
20:31:23 * elliott tries to figure out why GArrow doesn't include ga_swap.
20:33:42 <roper> always had to code it
20:34:03 -!- MSleep has joined.
20:34:12 <Deewiant> fizzie: Bourgeoisie Funge-98 software since 2007.
20:35:29 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:36:24 <elliott> Deewiant: You know what they say, can't spell Funge-98 without Bayes' theorem.
20:37:06 <Deewiant> Er, shouldn't that be that you /can/ spell it without it unless you're Deewiant?
20:37:30 <fizzie> No; being a frequentist, you obviously somehow spell it without.
20:39:52 <elliott> Which is a PERVERSE ABOMINATION.
20:41:16 <Deewiant> Well, I don't think I can come up with a prior for the speed of my Funge-Space.
20:41:24 <roper> when do you expect we talk in binary?
20:41:30 <oerjan> <Vorpal> R'lyeh standard time. I wonder what that would be like <-- enough time for death to die
20:41:53 <fizzie> Deewiant: Then you will use an uninformative prior.
20:43:48 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:44:56 -!- augur has joined.
20:50:40 <Deewiant> elliott: Shush, I want to observe this in peace.
20:51:13 <roper> %% means interchangeable
20:51:34 <elliott> Deewiant: What, roper or your funge-space?
20:51:44 <roper> + means concatenation
20:52:14 <roper> well that is almost all
20:53:44 <roper> that may serve for optimisation
20:54:14 <roper> from ffaster to slower or viceversa
20:54:51 <roper> may need to go slower before faster
20:55:37 <roper> it may inviolve mathnythinfg
20:56:13 -!- MSleep has changed nick to MDude.
20:56:25 -!- oerjan has set topic: I'm not a number, I'm a free cheese grater | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
20:58:27 <roper> double+doube%%quad
21:00:45 <roper> inc a + inc a + dec a %% inc a
21:00:59 <Deewiant> system() should be called shell() because that's what it does.
21:01:01 -!- Patashu has joined.
21:02:44 <elliott> Deewiant: You're a terrible DS9K thinker.
21:03:02 <fizzie> Deewiant: It should be called commandprocessor().
21:03:20 <Deewiant> "shell" is the max-6-letter equivalent of "commandprocessor".
21:03:48 <fizzie> But these are the days of max-31-letter names.
21:03:51 <elliott> Deewiant: system() just does something completely unspecified, so "system" seems like a good name for it.
21:03:55 <elliott> It calls out to the system, somehow.
21:04:03 <Deewiant> elliott: It passes the string to a command processor.
21:04:20 <Deewiant> "system" makes me think of system calls.
21:04:25 <fizzie> That is how it's defined.
21:04:48 <fizzie> "the system function passes the string pointed to by string to that command processor to be executed in a manner which the implementation shall document".
21:04:51 <Deewiant> If string is not a null pointer, the system function passes the string pointed to by string to that command processor to be
21:04:54 <Deewiant> executed in a manner which the implementation shall document; this might then cause the
21:04:58 <Deewiant> program calling system to behave in a non-conforming manner or to terminate.
21:05:32 <fizzie> Also I wonder how many times system(NULL) has been used.
21:05:47 <fizzie> Unaccidentally, anyway.
21:06:25 <Deewiant> When my C compiler starts needing a library, I'll make sure that that library's system() calls abort() if system(NULL) hasn't been called first.
21:07:58 <fizzie> Will you also give system(NULL) a 10% chance to return 0 just to test that the programs are robust in handling the "no command processor" case?
21:08:52 <Deewiant> fizzie: Nah; I trust that if they check it, they do so properly. :-P
21:17:32 <oerjan> on the DeathStar 9000, system() of course blows up a star system.
21:21:28 -!- roper has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:21:43 <elliott> I can't tell whether he's avant-garde or just stupid.
21:22:01 <Deewiant> The ropening: a saga for the ages.
21:22:29 <elliott> Maybe he was a robot slowly deteriorating as he runs out of power, a million miles from Earth.
21:22:32 <elliott> Only IRC to keep him company.
21:23:11 <oerjan> `frink 1000000 miles -> c s
21:23:24 <HackEgo> 804672000/149896229 (approx. 5.368193752225748)
21:23:40 <oerjan> i guess we've had worse lag than that
21:27:12 <Ngevd> Maybe he was in the Spanish Embassy in New York?
21:27:52 <Deewiant> itidus21: His IP is the more relevant info, you can obviously connect to any server you want. :-P
21:27:53 <oerjan> Deewiant: um servers are frequently assigned randomly?
21:28:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:28:25 <Deewiant> oerjan: I guess they are, if you just connect to irc.freenode.net or whatever.
21:28:46 <oerjan> atrapado also suggests spanish
21:28:50 <fizzie> But why would you not connect to irc.eu.freenode.net or some such continentally appropriate name.
21:29:19 <Phantom_Hoover> An isomorphism is a bijection which also preserves structure in some way, at least in all the examples I've seen.
21:29:24 <Phantom_Hoover> 19:01:34: <Ngevd> I'm pretty sure infinite-length strings are uncountable
21:29:28 <fizzie> Sorry, chat.eu.freenode.net.
21:29:34 <Deewiant> I just connect to the specific server I want and then when irssi auto-reconnects it goes to some random place if that server's down, I think.
21:29:38 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: except in the category of Set, you uncouth illiterate
21:29:46 <kallisti> Phantom_Hoover: define "preserves structure"
21:29:53 <elliott> oerjan: *illiterate fuck is standard terminology tyvm.
21:29:58 <fizzie> Deewiant: Yes, it converts 32 random bits into an IPv4 address and goes there.
21:30:13 <Deewiant> fizzie: That's what it seems like.
21:30:17 <oerjan> elliott: i was a bit confused after what i saw in the log, was it uncouth plebeian?
21:30:35 * oerjan only looked at some of the logs today
21:30:37 <elliott> oerjan: That is also acceptable when you want to SHAKE THINGS UP A BIT and can't quite bring yourself to swear at Ngevd.
21:30:52 <fizzie> I seem to have lindbohm.freenode.net and chat.eu.freenode.net listed.
21:31:01 <fizzie> oerjan: You've been accused of espionage in the logs. HTH.
21:31:05 -!- NihilistDandy has joined.
21:31:14 <elliott> oerjan: I guess if the recipient is illiterate it doesn't matter what words you use.
21:32:01 <Phantom_Hoover> For graphs, it means that edges and nodes stay attached.
21:32:09 <oerjan> <fizzie> But why would you not connect to irc.eu.freenode.net or some such continentally appropriate name. <-- erm irc.freenode.net is in the irssi default list (and still what i connect to if my main norwegian server doesn't work)
21:32:28 <elliott> C'moon. C'mon SO. Two upvotes in two and a half hours.
21:32:29 <fizzie> oerjan: But you might end up in the Americas! They might shoot you!
21:32:36 <elliott> Let me breach 6,800 today.
21:32:58 <fizzie> (They shoot people there.)
21:33:07 <Phantom_Hoover> 19:01:34: <Ngevd> I'm pretty sure infinite-length strings are uncountable
21:33:14 <fizzie> Yes, they shoot them IN HALF.
21:33:34 <fizzie> I saw a MythBusters show about that. (Or I guess it maybe was a tree.)
21:33:41 <elliott> `addquote <fizzie> I saw a MythBusters show about that. (Or I guess it maybe was a tree.)
21:33:45 <HackEgo> 802) <fizzie> I saw a MythBusters show about that. (Or I guess it maybe was a tree.)
21:34:12 <elliott> oerjan: Have you seen our perfect quotes:
21:35:19 <oerjan> <fizzie> oerjan: You've been accused of espionage in the logs. HTH. <-- i saw that. didn't quite understand. i mean, how you could you possibly suspect innocent little _me_? also, don't touch that big red button.
21:36:16 <Ngevd> Wait a goddamn goddamn second
21:36:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That's only one program.
21:36:23 <elliott> She has to learn all the other programs.
21:36:26 <Ngevd> Are pi and e co-transcendental?
21:36:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The politest name.
21:36:48 <fizzie> oerjan: Your careless un-Torred logged-in Wiki edits have revealed you.
21:37:04 <elliott> fizzie: As opposed to Torred logged-in wiki edits.
21:37:09 <elliott> Those would have been so fucking safe.
21:37:38 <Ngevd> Phantom_Hoover, a is not expressible in algebraic terms of b
21:38:07 <fizzie> elliott: ONION ROUTING.
21:38:19 <oerjan> <Ngevd> Are pi and e co-transcendental? <-- famous unsolved problem. e.g. it's unknown whether either of pi+e and pi*e are rational, although at least one must be transcendental and both are suspected to be
21:38:34 <elliott> fizzie: He just stepped on a security rake and got a face full of fucking safety, etc.
21:38:48 <elliott> (The onions are the rake.)
21:39:33 <elliott> (diff) (hist) . . N User:Asd4628182; 21:36 . . (+3) . . Asd462818 (Talk | contribs) (New page: asd)
21:39:34 <elliott> (diff) (hist) . . N User:Asd462818; 21:31 . . (+3) . . Asd462818 (Talk | contribs) (New page: asd)
21:39:37 <elliott> SPAMBOTS. YOU'RE NOT EVEN TRYING ANY MORE.
21:40:03 <Ngevd> oerjan understands me
21:40:20 <Ngevd> oerjan, will you be my friend?
21:40:28 <monqy> You will find that when it comes to camping, you dont just want to sleep in an tent, but you will want to get a commercial RV and use the commercial campgrounds as an alternative camping experience.
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21:40:36 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i assume he means whether pi / e is in the algebraic closed field generated by the other (equivalently i think, whether there's a nontrivial rational polynomial p(x,y) such that p(pi,e) = 0)
21:40:48 <monqy> You may need to go traditionally camping because of the money, however, you will want to think about modern ways of camping. fuck tonight locally
21:41:15 <monqy> Erla64ys418a "a good spambot"
21:41:55 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: so more like prime : coprime :: transcendental : cotranscendental
21:42:01 <elliott> monqy: fuck tonight locally
21:42:51 <elliott> "What’s the Trick to Fucking Local Horny Locals Tonight?"
21:43:52 <Ngevd> Edinburgh, city where shit is fucking local
21:44:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: They're so fucking local that they're referred to as "local" TWICE in the same question!
21:44:51 <elliott> You will find that when it comes to camping, you dont just want to sleep in an tent, but you will want to get a commercial RV and use the commercial campgrounds as an alternative camping experience.
21:45:55 <monqy> i also like the userpages of the asd bots
21:46:04 <oerjan> just get a sleeping bag and a room at the alta ice hotel
21:46:30 <elliott> oerjan: Also known as a "Norwegian holiday".
21:46:50 <oerjan> (no i haven't tried that. do i _look_ insane? oh right. well, i still haven't.)
21:49:28 <fizzie> Or the Kiruna "ICEHOTEL" if you want the "Swedish holiday".
21:49:32 <oerjan> Ngevd: you can be my slightly less often beaten minion, if you like.
21:49:48 <fizzie> http://www.itravelguide.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/ice-hotel-jukkasjarvi-church.jpg <- the hotel.
21:49:53 <fizzie> (Okay, so it's just their church.)
21:50:35 <fizzie> There's also a snow hotel in Finland.
21:50:42 <oerjan> fizzie: wait, are you saying finland... ok.
21:50:43 <fizzie> It's less translucent. :/
21:50:55 <fizzie> http://www.snowcastle.net/en/
21:51:21 <fizzie> They do weddings and that sort of thing, much what you'd expect.
21:51:30 <fizzie> I think mooz might've stayed there?
21:52:08 <fizzie> They do have some ice in it, but judging from the photos not quite as much as at the ICEHOTEL.
21:53:37 <fizzie> We're going to go through Kiruna (twice, actually, since we need to get back too) around Easter, but skipped the ICE. I'm not sure how long it's open, anyway.
21:55:02 <fizzie> I think they put it in a storage hall during the summer and keep it open in a sort of reduced mode.
21:55:09 <fizzie> Which is pretty pointless.
21:55:30 <fizzie> Apparently summer tourists have been so disappointed for not being able to go to the ice hotel.
21:56:51 <oerjan> fizzie: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_hotel says it's just ice that is stored, not the previous hotel
21:56:59 <kallisti> Phantom_Hoover: so sets do not have isomorphisms?
21:57:06 <kallisti> or are set isomorphisms just bijective functions?
21:57:14 <fizzie> oerjan: http://www.icehotel.com/uk/ICEHOTEL/Stay-at-ICEHOTEL/The-ice-factory/ "For the first time in history you can experience the sensation of ICEHOTEL even during summer. The world’s first and largest hotel built of snow and ice, will have a little sister in the summer of 2012. On the 8th of June a smaller version of the hotel opens; 120 square meters and will hold three art suites, an ICEBAR by ICEHOTEL and place for guests to try ice sculpting."
21:57:34 <Phantom_Hoover> kallisti, they're just bijections, so nobody calls them isomorphisms.
21:58:21 <elliott> "What is ICEHOTEL? A hotel built of ice and snow, would be the most common response. The first and the largest in the world, someone might add. But we have more thrilling stories to tell. Lean closer to your computer screen and we'll whisper them in your ear."
21:58:27 <kallisti> Phantom_Hoover: would it be technically incorrect to say so? aside from being laughed at?
21:59:16 <elliott> fizzie: So are the beds made out of ice in ICEHOTEL?
21:59:31 <kallisti> Phantom_Hoover: yes but a set of finite strings is a -- oh I see :P
21:59:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Wait, really?
22:00:16 <Deewiant> elliott: "The bed you'll sleep on is made of blocks of ice, a wooden base and a mattress covered with reindeer skin."
22:01:03 <Ngevd> Is it bad that I don't see the paradox in the Banach-Tarski Paradox?
22:01:03 <elliott> Deewiant: The reindeer skin is frozen, right?
22:01:04 <Deewiant> elliott: Yes, it's made of ice.
22:01:13 <oerjan> kallisti: bijections are the isomorphisms of the category Set. just because no one bothers to use the term when speaking solely about sets doesn't mean it's not true.
22:01:18 <elliott> Ngevd: What, do your folk usually take a sphere apart and reassemble it into two spheres of the same size?
22:01:32 <shachaf> "paradox" is pretty much a meaningless word these days.
22:01:37 <Ngevd> elliott, nah, we don't have enough spheres
22:01:55 <shachaf> Its meaning seems to be approximately along the lines of "whoa, man".
22:02:04 <elliott> shachaf: Yes, those modern Banach-Tarskiers totally ruined everything.
22:02:06 <Ngevd> I mean, it's just Hilbert's Hotel all over again
22:02:07 <elliott> I remember the day when...
22:02:18 <shachaf> elliott: Well, it's been that way for a while.
22:02:47 <Phantom_Hoover> <Ngevd> Is it bad that I don't see the paradox in the Banach-Tarski Paradox?
22:02:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Not really, it just means you understand what it actually means.
22:03:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I somewhat doubt that?
22:03:24 <shachaf> I have the feeling Ngevd doesn't understand what it actually means, going by what it just said.
22:03:32 <Ngevd> Aaah stop making me delete what I'm writing then making me realise that I didn't need to delete it
22:03:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well, people who understand Banach-Tarski don't generally say things like "Is it bad that I don't see the paradox in the Banach-Tarski Paradox?".
22:03:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Or compare it to Hilbert's hotel.
22:04:13 <shachaf> My actual working definition of "paradox" is "an apparent contradiction".
22:04:21 <shachaf> Which covers a lot, you must admit.
22:04:29 <elliott> Ngevd: "A stronger form of the theorem implies that given any two "reasonable" solid objects (such as a small ball and a huge ball) — solid in the sense of the continuum — either one can be reassembled into the other. This is often stated colloquially as "a pea can be chopped up and reassembled into the Sun"." -- maybe this seems more appropriately paradoxical to you.
22:04:52 <Ngevd> elliott, only when thinking about physics
22:05:04 <Ngevd> And even then not strictly paradoxical
22:05:12 <shachaf> elliott: Well, Hilbert's Hotel can be rearranged to, like, fit Hilbert's SUPERhotel.
22:05:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Ngevd, it's more complex than just Hilbert's hotel; for one thing, it relies on the axiom of choice.
22:05:36 <elliott> Ngevd: I don't see why you think things become less paradoxical-sounding when you detach them from "physics".
22:05:56 <Ngevd> elliott, only finite subdivisions of the pea and the sun
22:06:20 <Ngevd> As opposed to the hypothetically infinite subdivisions of the magic maths ball
22:06:22 <oerjan> shachaf: don't be such a square!
22:06:32 <elliott> the non-measurable weirdness going on with the pieces.
22:06:33 <Phantom_Hoover> The meat of the proof is actually some neat group and set theory.
22:06:34 <fizzie> They've got some specifically warm sleeping bags, or some-such.
22:06:40 <elliott> I deleted the wrong part of that line.
22:06:51 <fizzie> From what I've heard it's still a bit chilly, at least in the Finnish snowcastle.
22:07:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I think the rub is that Ngevd probably wouldn't consider it any differently if the pieces /weren't/ all weird and non-measurable.
22:07:10 <fizzie> Also having a wedding there is probably a recipe for a bit... frozen performance on your wedding night, maybe?
22:07:18 <Phantom_Hoover> <Ngevd> As opposed to the hypothetically infinite subdivisions of the magic maths ball
22:07:24 <shachaf> I think this explains everything, really : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFvokQUHh08
22:07:24 <elliott> At least he seems to be saying essentially "it's abstract so anything goes". Also it is maybe IMPOLITE to talk about him in the third person like this.
22:07:55 <Ngevd> I'm used to it, carry on talking about me behind my back in front of my back
22:08:37 <Ngevd> Also I need sleep, tomorrow is an important day for me. A day I do not want to be sleepy on
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22:08:58 <fizzie> Oh, I thought it was just a very mellow ragepat.
22:09:06 <Phantom_Hoover> He is going to try to execute the Banach-Tarski paradox in real life.
22:09:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: With himself.
22:09:26 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: he'll fail, but then try again on Dec 21.
22:12:26 <Phantom_Hoover> This university should probably do something about its orange problem.
22:12:30 <elliott> En samling af de bedste film der har medvirket i Matematik Revyen.
22:13:24 <fizzie> Also poor Denmark, I don't think they've got an ice hotel at all.
22:13:52 <shachaf> elliott: How would you like a shiny point of IRC karma?
22:13:56 <HackEgo> lyderokolen pluminsiprobi kunstrømskate råde lantrassamenestilpa kavdelekand demotteriktenestpappe hallgasilkjordigst countraks artnerntor dovenestyrkivproduksst vittningen spektor kasjonensambasjon notektbifagaarken bilene bandringer mumsgud sykejenevningen konterstyrret
22:14:27 <fizzie> oerjan: ^^ Is it, really.
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22:56:11 <GreaseMonkey> "hi, i need a whatever-line extension so i can connect my bots that aren't part of any botnet"
22:56:43 <Gregor> BotNETs are typically, y'know, botNETs.
22:57:21 <GreaseMonkey> anyhow i'm listening to music that AnMaster/Vorpal would hate
23:07:02 <itidus21> my music sucks ass... i basically just used a midi composer and placed some random notes
23:08:05 <GreaseMonkey> i'm at least pretending to work on a sega master system music driver
23:08:48 <itidus21> telling my mom about this jackie chan biography i have been reading while making a cup of coffee >.<
23:26:22 <oerjan> it's ok as long as you don't leave coffee stains
23:26:53 <fizzie> Deewiant: pixelsize=12 didn't (on the top row, anyway), now I already turned that thing off.
23:27:21 <itidus21> it reminds us that modern gaming aint so great
23:27:53 <itidus21> and.. reminds us about the joys of haptic feedback before touchscreens became so popular
23:29:01 <itidus21> and the joys of indexed image palettes
23:29:42 <fizzie> There's that one pretty webpage doing palette-rotation animations with canvas.
23:29:48 <itidus21> and the joys of box shaped image restoration filters
23:31:11 <itidus21> and video game magazines .. im sure they'll never be the same
23:32:23 <fizzie> http://www.effectgames.com/demos/canvascycle/?sound=0 in case someone's managed to miss it; though in Internet time it's SO OLD.
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23:33:48 <itidus21> i think i should say and the joys of pixel art.. too
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23:38:29 <fizzie> The pictures are drawn by a guy who's done backgrounds for Loom and Secret of Monkey Island.
23:39:48 <itidus21> i looked at super mario in a nes emulator once and saw a palette cycle on a golden colour... used on coins and question blocks
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