00:00:01 yes, probably, but the supply of flipped humans is remarkably low. 00:00:20 There's an Asimov (IIRC) story about a flipped human. 00:00:34 He has problems digesting, if I recall correctly. 00:00:43 to me that sounds like an excuse for being able to patent the same thing twice. 00:00:52 But it might not be altogether factually accurate. 00:00:59 fizzie: not to mention being LEFT-HANDED 00:01:13 oklofok: but it won't have the same effect on a human, so why should they be equivalent patents? 00:01:14 dear god. 00:01:45 umm 00:01:51 i have to think about this 00:02:02 i mean 00:02:18 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chirality_(chemistry)#In_biology 00:03:13 let's say there's a drug that works just like aspirin, except that a permutation f is built between humans such that it actually works on you (x) like aspirin would've worked on f(x) 00:03:33 of course i suppose the situation is a bit different 00:03:34 more like 00:03:45 a bijection is built between humans and stones 00:04:01 okay so maybe you win for now 00:04:15 * oerjan victory dance 00:04:16 Oh no, it's the glove example (in Wikipedia). 00:05:15 Also I've been told that d-LSD, which does stuff to people, has a stereoisomer l-LSD, which does not do anything. (But I doubt there are patent issues there.) 00:06:47 that's the best description of lsd i've ever heard 00:07:35 A totally pure salt of LSD will emit small flashes of white light when shaken in the dark.[5] LSD is strongly fluorescent and will glow bluish-white under UV light. 00:07:36 :O 00:08:00 lsd must be the second coming of fucking jesus o_O 00:08:59 Also you can hear God's voice if you put some in your ear. (Not true.) 00:09:56 i think you'd hear a lot of things 00:11:08 I was probably thinking of that seashell/ocean thing there. 00:13:43 kallisti, update 00:28:41 It is why I say they should abolish patents 00:36:18 Done next recording of D&D game. 00:37:16 -!- DeadlyFugu has left ("Leaving"). 00:37:38 i think to understand patents you have to understand that investors need a way to protect their investments to avoid the investment market reducing to lowest common denominator of some kind 00:37:54 i think patent system is nothing more than investment protection 00:38:06 -!- oerjan has set topic: Now with itidus21's patented random topic destroyer | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 00:38:29 there was a topic? 00:38:31 The patent system still needs to be adjusted a lot, even if they do not abolish it entirely. But my opinion is it should be abolished. 00:39:16 itidus21: yes, it said "We apologize for the recent topic change delay | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/" 00:40:04 well recently i have heard about a flood of new laws in usa all of which are terrifying 00:40:36 i don't think there is any hope for someone who isn't a cog in a corporation 00:41:53 -!- oerjan has set topic: New US law banning itidus21's patented random topic destroyer | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 00:41:58 1 such danger which i guess is not a law is some items that were in public domain being pushed back into the non-public domain 00:42:05 i think it's best to nip this in the bud 00:42:22 itidus21: How does that work? 00:42:50 another is the thing about how us military can now take you away if they want to 00:43:03 i think.. i dunno if that one is gone though 00:43:14 then again theres SOPA.. i dunno much about that, probably going through 00:43:22 They are certainly seems dumb laws 00:43:35 i dunno how factual i am being since i dont research well 00:43:55 anyway, theres also some business about changing the way the patent system works drastically 00:44:45 Then, hopefully they will correct it instead of making it stupid a second time. 00:45:00 ha ha ha 00:45:12 well it's obvious that humanity is doomed anyway so who gives a fuck 00:45:15 heard recently theyre looking into some kind of nicotine patch equivalent for marijuana using a mouth spray based on cannabis for helping addicts, after it was useed to help multiple sclerosis.. not sure about this either 00:45:18 But they probably don't know how to correct it 00:45:43 itidus21: cannabis addiction? no such thing. 00:45:48 not in the same way as nicotine. 00:46:01 i don't belive in nicotine addiction 00:46:17 i've been smoking half a pack a day for half a year and i don't have one 00:46:34 * kallisti actually quit smoking cigars recently. 00:46:43 I still smoke hookah occasionally but it's pretty much neglible to my health. 00:46:46 like once a week at most. 00:46:52 lately it's been like a month. 00:46:54 also.. in nigeria there was some kind of thing that 200,000 polio vaccinations contained some kind of stuff which can lead to problems giving birth 00:47:13 i just find random bits of troubling news i think 00:47:28 i have a smoking addiction, obviously. it's a fun way to pass time. but i don't actually feel anything if i skip a day or two. i just occasionally think i wish i had an excuse to go outside. 00:49:36 same for caffeine addiction, but caffeine at least feels like a drug, nicotine doesn't even seem to have any sort of effect on me. i tried snus but it doesn't do anything. 00:50:11 as for smoking, the first cigarette of the day feels nice, after that it's just an excuse to walk a bit and go outside. 00:50:17 nicotine is comparable to heroin in terms of addictive potential 00:50:26 cannabis, on the other hand, is incapable of creating a physical dependence. 00:50:33 I don't see what a patch would accomplish 00:50:38 aside from being another source of THC for someone to take. 00:51:01 well apparently they're able to take out the THC a bit or something 00:51:09 and i assume it feels nice because you don't get as much oxygen as you need if you smoke passionately. 00:51:13 so you get a bit dizzy 00:51:26 snus doesn't have this, and probably for this reason never feels like anything 00:51:26 oklofok: that's part of it 00:51:31 I get crazy light-headed when I smoke hookah 00:51:41 because you take deep hits 00:52:10 but do you agree with my opinion on nicotine addiction? (that it's impossi) 00:52:12 ble 00:52:37 no. 00:52:46 >_>? 00:52:51 Science has demonstrated that nicotine addiction is not merely possible but highly probable with nicotine intake. 00:53:12 or is it just me? or is the usual way to feel nicotine addiction that you feel (as always) that you need something to do with your hands, and nicotine addiction brings the memory to your brain that smoking gives something to do with them? 00:53:16 oklofok: No, but I agree that you have smoking addiction but not nicotine addiction, maybe? 00:53:49 well i have no idea what any sort of physical addiction is supposed to feel like. 00:53:58 oklofok: like that. 00:54:46 then i have a physical addiction to sex, nicotine, occasionally alcohol, to math, to going to work, to my computer, and pretty much to anything that i occasionally want to do. 00:54:49 it's not going to feel unpleasant. or strange. your brain isn't going to make you think "oh I want nicotine". it just becomes a habit regardless of how it's rationalized. 00:55:14 oklofok: sure. some of those things are reasonable statements. 00:55:23 so obviously cannabis is just as addictive as tobacco 00:55:29 hmmm... 00:55:30 no 00:55:50 there is a distinct difference between a normal habit and a physical addiction to a substance. 00:55:51 well it actually does something to you, so you might want to avoid it when, say, at work. 00:55:55 I suppose, different people are affected in different way 00:56:08 yeah i don't get it 00:56:11 So, it is the difference! Sometimes. 00:56:19 oklofok: uh, sure. that's irrelevant to the conversation. 00:56:52 actually i suppose i don't have a physical addiction to sex 00:57:08 because i actually feel that i need to have sex occasionally (90 times a day) 00:57:12 nor food 00:57:34 nor the computer, really 00:57:40 i specifically feel i want to use the computer 00:57:49 i never specifically feel i want to smoke 00:57:59 i could just as well buy an energy drink or a cola 00:58:03 it just costs way more 00:58:07 and isn't nicotine. 00:58:24 well note that i often do just buy another energy drink 00:58:32 and then i don't need to smoke for another 3 hours. 00:58:35 then i have another choice 00:59:04 so really smoking and caffeine are my only physical addictions, the only ones that i can just change for anything else to do with my hands. 00:59:05 seriously I think you're probably in some stage of denial about it. It's not controversial opinion that nicotine has similar addictive potential to other highly addictive drugs such as morphene and heroin. 00:59:43 i haven't tried heroin, but if it's as awesome as it sounds i doubt i could continue my life without retrying it every now and then. 00:59:46 I smoked for several months and could immediately notice that I was addicted. 01:00:29 also when it's cold outside i don't smoke, i fill a bottle of water and drink it. 01:00:56 two of the most addictive and detrimental substances to humanity are perfectly legal. 01:01:01 anyway, theres also some business about changing the way the patent system works drastically -- After six years, Congress is once again considering Patent Reform legislation in the form of the America Invents Act (S. 23). At the heart of the bill is a shift from a first-to-invent to first-inventor-to-file system. 01:02:01 then again theres SOPA.. i dunno much about that, probably going through -- The originally proposed bill would allow the U.S. Department of Justice, as well as copyright holders, to seek court orders against websites accused of enabling or facilitating copyright infringement. 01:02:10 are there nicotine-free cigarettes? 01:02:23 yes. 01:02:24 i guess that would be the easiest way to check 01:02:26 herbal cigarettes and such. 01:02:42 also "e-cigarettes" which are basically just vaporizers. they're healthier but more expensive. 01:02:57 heard recently theyre looking into some kind of nicotine patch equivalent for marijuana -- http://www.news-medical.net/news/20120110/Now-cannabis-mouth-spray-to-help-e28098pote28099-addicts-quit.aspx 01:03:07 ah yes 01:03:11 also you can roll your own cigarettes or smoke out of a pipe, which has fewer additives. It's still bad for you though. But much cheaper and slightly less harmful. 01:03:40 fizzie: I'm confused as to how the inverse transform can produce a non-periodic signal, as well. 01:03:52 itidus21: I can't take anything seriously when it says "pot addicts" 01:04:14 also.. in nigeria there was some kind of thing that 200,000 polio vaccinations contained some kind of stuff which can lead to problems giving birth -- http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/archive/ldn/2004/mar/04031101 01:04:42 kallisti: i've heard that heroin addicts start shaking and stuff if they don't get heroin 01:04:56 i've also heard this about nicotine, but that's obviously not true 01:04:57 So, they're actually making an Ender's Game film. Should I be horrified preemptively? 01:05:01 and caffeine 01:05:48 oklofok: it's definitely exaggerated a bit in movies, for example. but yes there are withdrawal symptoms of both heroin and nicotine... 01:05:57 i mean why the fuck is it called physical addiction if there are absolutely no physical signs o_O 01:06:04 >_> 01:06:06 <_< 01:06:25 Also, caffeine's withdrawal symptoms tend to be in the form of headaches. 01:06:28 oklofok: perhaps you should try heroin, then. 01:06:32 kallisti: you realize that if a/b is irrational, then e^(iat) + a^(ibt) is not periodic? :) 01:06:40 er 01:06:45 kallisti: i just said i would probably never want to give that up 01:06:48 lol a/b is irrational 01:06:51 how would that be a good choice for me? 01:06:51 *e^(iat) + e^(ibt) 01:07:09 oerjan: no I did not know that. 01:09:37 hth then 01:09:44 not really... 01:09:55 it's just something I'll need to learn when i have some time. 01:10:09 kallisti: well it shows you can get non-periodic functions even with two terms 01:10:11 numbers are trivial, you should learn symbolic dynamics instead 01:10:41 oerjan: I didn't know that either, but now I know 01:11:00 oerjan: the fact that non-periodic functions are trivial to produce doesn't really explain to me how frequency domain can translate to non-periodic time domain. 01:12:18 oerjan: can you sic e^(iat) + a^(ibt)? 01:12:26 oklofok: wat 01:12:29 (sic) 01:12:51 1 such danger which i guess is not a law is some items that were in public domain being pushed back into the non-public domain -- Works from certain countries that were in the public domain because they didn’t comply with formalities of US law (like notice and renewal requirements), or because they were published in countries that didn’t have copyright relations with the US (like the S 01:12:52 oviet Union before 1973) had their copyrights restored on January 1, 1996. 01:13:18 itidus21: I'm going to get oerjan to ban you due to excessive self-quoting. 01:13:39 if you can sic it, then i suppose i understand your confusion even if you don't know what sic means. as i'm sure you do, i suppose you can sic it. 01:14:00 kallisti: guess what i'm going to do now btw :D 01:14:05 oklofok: i know what (sic) means, but why should i put it on something i already corrected 01:14:23 oerjan: because i wanted to know that was correct 01:14:27 oh 01:14:29 ! 01:14:33 sorry, i missed that line. 01:14:41 i won't learn 01:14:43 now i understand all kinds of thing. 01:14:47 yay! 01:15:36 oklofok: i suppose the other is also correct if a/(b ln a) is irrational 01:16:21 i was gonna say i have no idea, but actually i now realize you're talking about trivial stuffs. 01:16:38 maybe if i must rant i should do it by pastebin 01:16:38 EXCELLENT 01:16:51 itidus21: or on the channel 01:17:07 only everyone except me is annoyed, so who gives a fuck 01:17:52 Are you sure everyone except you is annoyed? 01:17:57 not really 01:18:10 i'm the only one actively unannoyed though. 01:18:29 some of you just stand in a list and keep your mouths shut 01:18:30 I am not annoyed by it either 01:18:42 you must be immune 01:19:55 i think the effect in law is similar to the effect in technology where progress in technology doesn't lead to diminished labor rates 01:20:05 (or maybe slightly it does im not sure) 01:20:23 and in the same way more laws doesn't bring more and more fairness or justice 01:20:40 itidus21: Funny, progress in technology seems to have lead to significantly diminished actual labor rates, just not time-spent-"working" rates. :P 01:20:46 If you can read this text, you are wasting your life <-- NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 01:21:07 Do you think the current way of catching errors from pure functions in Haskell is not good way and could be made a better way? 01:21:34 in other words, all these laws that get introduced year after year don't make anything any better 01:21:47 maybe its a very wrong and cynical view 01:22:21 after all.. capital punishment is being outlawed many places.. = good.. 01:23:19 if half of humanity was randomly slaughtered, the rest of us would have twice as much money 01:23:20 They are I/O exceptions but it seems not quite right. Better way, in my opinion, would be, have a macro make a function into I/O action with specified strictifying and those one can be made caught exceptions. 01:23:23 though 01:24:26 AND cows. 01:24:31 zzo38: that makes a complete mockery of referential transparency 01:24:33 we could all make our own milk :o 01:28:59 oerjan: Is current way better or worse? I think it should be made with a macro, but current way they depend a lot on evaluation and means you can define something in terms of not defined seem wrong to me 01:35:14 zzo38: i don't know what to say but it would be a fundamentally different language. 01:36:53 you fundamentalists are all the same 01:37:44 oerjan: Are you sure? Current way seems not mathematically correct to me? 01:40:53 zzo38: it has a mathematical foundation in the imprecise exception theory. that may not be ideal. but your way changes a much _more_ fundamental property of haskell, one which it was designed to explore. 01:44:21 It seem to me, not only is not mathematically correct, but also can cause other problems too, such as strictness analysis and some other things 01:44:36 oerjan: Can you describe better please? 01:45:25 no, i don't know the details of the theory. 01:46:28 if you want auditory hallucinations specifically you should take diisopropyltryptamine 01:47:02 also auditory distortions like nonlinear pitch shift and "flanging" 01:47:06 kmc: Is it enough just to listen to someone trying to pronounce it? 01:48:20 :D 01:49:00 * shachaf realises that's probably "di-iso-", not "diiso" pronounced as in Finnish. 01:49:05 correct :) 01:49:42 also pot addiction is a real thing, but it affects small minority of people who take pot ever 01:50:02 you can become addicted to pretty much any sensation or activity 01:50:05 some draw the distinction between physical addiction and psychological addiction 01:50:18 i don't know the field well enough to know if this distinction makes sense or if it's bullshit dualism 01:50:48 oklofok, but what would the money be worth 01:51:07 it's weight in fucking money that's what 01:55:05 ... 01:59:26 oklofok: ah but most money is electronical these days 02:00:21 i suppose an addiction can only feel "physical" to things that are evolutio...narily (?) useful to have as addictions. for instance i have a very physical need to do pull-ups every day.. 02:00:31 *-. 02:01:01 or things that subvert evolved systems 02:01:29 i suppose, but i can't come up with such 02:01:48 cocaine, heroin, etc 02:02:00 oerjan: i would probably take my cast out of the bank the day everyone i know is slaughtered 02:02:17 kmc: i hear heroin = nicotine in terms of addiction 02:02:23 so... obviously not 02:02:50 cocaine is a dopamine reuptake inhibitor; it increases the amount of dopamine in the space between neurons 02:03:05 which increases dopamine-related signaling 02:03:35 dopamine is one of the main chemicals involved in reinforcement and reward-seeking behavior 02:04:08 right so it feels great for a while. obviously you would need quite a bit of self-control not to use such a substance once you know what it feels like. 02:04:15 the brain has evolved to seek activities which are evolutionarily useful, like exercise, sex, food, etc 02:04:30 hmm 02:04:35 drugs like cocaine are addictive not because they're evolutionarily useful 02:04:48 but because they directly screw with the system for rewarding evolutionarily useful activity 02:05:16 so yes the addiction is every bit as physical as the need for sex or pull-ups 02:05:20 but you don't get the feeling "right now it would make sense to have sex, since that's fun", you get the feeling "oh god i need to fuck someone" 02:05:25 right 02:05:31 similarly "oh god i need some cocaine" 02:05:45 oklofok: the norwegian minister of finance is fond of reminding us that most of our national capital is in the form of skilled labor and that we need to preserve that. (especially when someone suggests we use more of the saved-up oil money.) 02:05:46 you don't feel "i really need to do pull-ups since i want to get strong", you feel "i really need to do some pull-ups right now" 02:06:13 but, at least i, feel "smoking is so much fun, i wish i could do it all day" 02:06:38 i don't feel it every now and then when i'm low on nicotine, i would like to do it all the time. 02:06:57 so maybe you are not "physically addicted" to nicotine 02:07:01 i must be 02:07:15 i've been smoking half a year, and a god-awful lot 02:07:22 i hear this i'm in denial 02:07:30 you seem not to understand a damn word i'm saying 02:07:33 that's ok 02:08:03 well i mean sure, it seems that i am not physically addicted to nicotine because i feel this way, by definition. 02:08:19 but how could i not be, if it is possible to be physically addicted to it? 02:08:26 luck of biochemistry 02:08:34 everyone's brain is a bit different 02:08:42 some people can take cocaine or heroin and not get addicted 02:08:47 there aren't a whole lot of them, but they do exist 02:08:55 but i get addicted to everything i do! i need to eat pizza *every day* nowadays 02:09:07 well 02:09:23 yeah but what does pizza have to do with single-codon mutations in your nicotinic acetylcholine receptors 02:09:40 i'm saying this stuff hinges on really specific genetic and biochemical details 02:09:50 which are different for everyone 02:09:55 :P 02:09:55 that's one reason why drug addiction is heritable 02:09:56 true 02:10:35 one interesting exception is alcohol, i certainly like being drunk, but i don't really feel like getting drunk except like once a month. 02:11:00 right now i have a bottle of whisky 20cm from my hand but i'm too lazy to pour so it's been there forever. 02:11:28 my family is full of drunks 02:11:38 Is it still OK after thirty years? 02:12:32 i hear that sort of thing can lead to you despising alcohol or something, but i certainly get completely wasted every now and then and have nothing against drinking in general. i'm just too lazy to pour. i'm never too lazy to smoke, really. 02:12:47 zzo38: yes, forever. 02:13:53 perhaps that has to do with my... let me copypaste alcoholic stuffoline receptors 02:15:44 which i inherit from my true parents, who are lizard kings. 02:15:46 -!- Jafet has joined. 02:19:55 i am the lizard king, i can do anything 02:28:43 are you my parent? 02:42:25 doubtful 02:42:48 sixth cousin once removed 02:53:04 I do not understand how my idea of catching pattern matching errors and so on breaks referential transparency any more than the existing way does 03:02:01 well i don't even understand how noses work. 03:15:29 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: OK!). 03:27:21 -!- madbr has joined. 03:27:45 hey... I think I've got an intersting idea for a CPU design 03:28:10 a friend had an optimization to TOD 03:28:37 to make it go faster the system could run a modified ntpd system to change the speed at which seconds progress 03:29:41 Have each cpu instruction output a result 03:29:50 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 03:30:06 And then instead of reading operands from registers, reading them from the results of the N previous instructions 03:30:44 Because fuck pipelining. 03:31:14 Essentially it's a form of out of order execution 03:33:27 pikhq: eh I guess it's a sort of mobile pipeline instead of a staged one... I think 03:35:45 Essentially you have a whole bunch of execution units, each of one is an ALU plus enough multiplexers to read operands from the N previous units, and you assign a whole bunch of incoming operations at the same time on a large block of units 03:37:38 So operation results become valid one after the other and trickles down the scheduled units 03:39:00 You'd have to do "out of band" instruction scheduling though 03:39:28 ie have the number of loop iterations etc determined some other way than branching instructions 03:41:38 Would probably mostly be interesting as a coprocessor to a RISC cpu 03:44:37 Like, write the program except a couple of critical loops in C, C code gets run on the RISC part, until it runs into a critical loop, then use the RISC to load up the critical loop mode registers etc and switch to some ultra fast assembly routine running in that kind of massive multi-ALU mode 03:47:39 -!- DCliche has joined. 03:50:10 -!- Klisz has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 03:52:44 madbr: while you're at it, why not switch to an fpga on the fly 03:53:38 http://www.microsemi.com/en/products/whats-new/smartfusion 03:55:31 jafet: looks nice 03:58:53 jafet: aiming at somewhere between SIMD units and fpgas 04:01:09 -!- Jafet1 has joined. 04:02:37 -!- Jafet has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 04:05:32 -!- Jafet1 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 04:12:01 -!- Jafet has joined. 04:13:41 " You'd have to do "out of band" instruction scheduling though" yeah this is important, if you instruct all your band members to gtfo at once, you have no band anymore 04:42:34 -!- zzo38 has joined. 04:44:55 You can arrange a reunion, though 04:46:47 -!- Darth_Cliche has joined. 04:50:01 -!- DCliche has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:37:15 -!- Darth_Cliche has changed nick to Klisz. 05:41:36 I made up a TeX program to print out the experience points required for each level in D&D game, up to as many as will fit on a page (which is 53). There is still more room on the page so I could include other information too; do you have other idea? 06:10:51 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 06:12:08 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 06:13:00 Good night, sir. 06:15:57 zzo38, you wanted a pure function in Haskell to catch exceptions? 06:16:19 like tryPure (error "foo") => Left (ErrorCall "foo") 06:16:19 ? 06:16:31 kmc: No. Not quite what I asked. 06:16:38 what then? 06:17:04 -!- Klisz has quit (Read error: Connection timed out). 06:17:36 I meant a *macro* (not a function at all) which converts an existing function (or even single value) to a function results in I/O action, with specified strictness of contained values (to specify which are used), and be able to catch errors there. 06:17:40 -!- Klisz has joined. 06:17:48 ah 06:17:54 that seems reasonable 06:18:10 Currently you catch them like other I/O errors, but the way it currently work seem wrong to me for more than one reason. 06:18:16 maybe you can write a combinator library for that 06:18:18 and not need macros 06:20:24 kmc: I think it won't be pure or mathematically correct or anything if it is not a macro. It doesn't make sense for it to be undefined and be defined due to that. There should be a layer in between, so that in one program it is undefined, and pass the layer, use a macro or something makes it a new thing based on the old one 06:21:12 Hopefully you can understand what I meant now. I do not completely understand what you meant that a combinator library can be written for that, however. 06:21:37 -!- elliott has joined. 06:22:37 ii'm confused 06:22:39 @type Control.Exception.try . Control.Exception.evaluate 06:22:39 forall a e. (GHC.Exception.Exception e) => a -> IO (Either e a) 06:22:46 isn't this the one-argument version of what you want? 06:22:54 for whnf strictness 06:23:08 Like, say you have: f :: Int -> Int -> Int; f 0 x = x; g :: Int -> Int -> IO Int; g = xyz 2 f; 06:23:35 kmc: I know about try and evaluate but that is what seem wrong to me. One thing the strictness is not always correct 06:24:17 (In my example, "xyz" would be the macro that does that; it isn't a function, so g = xyz; or g = xyz (1 + 1) f; is not allowed.) 06:25:07 Now, g 1 5 is IO action calling the pattern match exception, and g 0 8 is same as return 8 06:26:13 kmc: oh, are you and zzo38 discussing haskell? 06:26:14 Are you less confused now, or even more confused? 06:26:19 great! 06:26:20 i guess we are 06:28:30 -!- ais523 has joined. 06:31:57 -!- DCliche has joined. 06:32:22 Mike had written a series of tutorials on Funge-98, do you know if any others exist besides the ones currently posted on the rcfunge98.com site? 06:32:23 ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 06:32:51 in other words, anyone know of any Funge-98 tutorials? this seemed like a good place to ask 06:33:12 kmc: Do you have any more answer to me by now? 06:33:15 although probably a bad time, this is an awful time for people in most of the most common timezones for #esotericers 06:33:17 ais523: wow, I assumed Susan had abandoned rcfunge 06:33:17 Or anyone else answer? 06:33:20 no 06:33:34 Do you even understand what I mean, finally? 06:33:36 elliott: esolangs tend not to need all that much maintenance 06:34:01 ais523: well, no 06:34:44 I'm wondering if Deewiant has some, he's the person I'd rate as most likely to have a Funge-98 tutorial in this channel 06:34:49 elliott: What is your opinion of my comments about this Haskell programs? 06:34:50 also, what are you doing awake? 06:34:55 http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=funge-98+tutorial not promising 06:34:58 -!- Klisz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:35:00 ais523: good question 06:35:01 is this late at night or early morning for you, or do those terms have no meaning nowadays 06:35:09 zzo38: i have no idea what the context is 06:35:15 ais523: early morning right now 06:35:31 elliott: I decided the same thing, so I went to work 06:35:38 I had to get in early, by around 9am, to prepare a tutorial 06:35:41 elliott: Then read it! 06:35:44 zzo38: :( 06:35:48 so I'd have at most 3 hours sleep even if I managed to get to sleep instantly 06:35:51 so I decided it wasn't worth it 06:36:06 (I slept much of yesterday afternoon, due to only getting 2 hours sleep the day before) 06:36:19 ais523: no, I've slept 06:36:44 ah, OK 06:36:52 What it was, is I was discussing about a new way to do catching pattern matching failures and user error catching of pure functions in IO actions, by using macros. 06:36:53 what timezone would you say you're in at the moment? 06:37:16 (that is, if someone with a normal sleep schedule were sleeping at the same times as you, what timezone would they have to be in to make it a normal schedule?) 06:37:49 elliott: Now do you understand? 06:37:53 zzo38: Now do I understand? 06:37:59 elliott: no 06:38:28 ais523: err, I'm not sure; I slept about 8 hours, at least, from 21:00-05:00 or so 06:38:34 ais523: Do you know? 06:38:52 elliott: ooh, I envy that sleep schedule 06:39:00 I used it deliberately for a few days, but it made me ill 06:39:13 ais523: it's awful, i get tired in the afternoon 06:39:30 maybe it'd be better if it got bright earlier 06:39:32 actually, I think mine was even more extreme, along the lines of 18:00-02:00 06:39:42 and yes, I came to the conclusion that it works great in summer but doesn't work in winter 06:39:57 (current thoughts as to the optimal sleep schedule: sleep 6-8 hours and wake at sunrise, regardless of when sunrise is) 06:40:22 I have a program to calculate the sunrise and all planets rise, but it doesn't include refraction, and it also doesn't include the apparent size of solar disc 06:40:26 ais523: you misspelled 10+ 06:41:08 ais523: I would think 18:00 is too early to sleep? At least to me, and people I know, it is too early 06:41:26 But I do sometimes wake up as early as 02:00 06:41:33 Not often, though. 06:42:16 -!- DCliche has changed nick to Klisz. 06:48:30 ais523: That schedule's going to be hard to follow in places north of the Arctic Circle, or south of the Antarctic, at least year-round. 06:49:21 "south of the Antarctic" 06:49:29 Circle. 06:49:39 I didn't feel like repeating. 06:49:43 "I haven't slept in ten days and I'm SO TIRED, but some dude in the IRC said this is optimal." 06:49:59 fizzie: Months, on the South Pole. 06:50:01 fizzie: I was basing it on UKish latitudes 06:50:09 Then you just sleep for another 3 months or whenever it was. 06:50:17 I... guess it's efficient? 06:50:42 -!- _Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 06:50:57 -!- _Slereah has joined. 06:51:16 But it was just "sleep for the 6-8 hours before sunrise" always, you don't get to sleep in winter *or* summer. 06:51:40 Oh, yes, quite. 06:51:47 Well, it's even more efficient. 06:54:38 Does the rising/setting depends on sun declination? 06:57:05 -!- Klisz has quit (Quit: SLEEP, GLORIOUS SLEEP). 07:02:06 -!- MDude has changed nick to MSleep. 07:04:01 01:14:00: kallisti: guess what i'm going to do now btw :D 07:04:04 oklofok: how was the heroin 07:04:14 I would like to understand geometry of rising/setting. Astrolog has astro-graph so I can see it on the map of the world. There is yellow vertical line plotting hour angle, one point on the yellow line marked which is the declination, and the curved line red/green for rising/setting. 07:08:12 02:09:23: yeah but what does pizza have to do with single-codon mutations in your nicotinic acetylcholine receptors 07:08:23 kmc: what DOESN'T pizza have to do with single-codon mutations in your nicotinic acetylcholine receptors 07:08:39 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:19:47 Omnomnom,. 07:38:39 ais523: what's the opposite of infinitesimal? 07:38:41 as in, not infinitesimal 07:38:53 Large? 07:39:19 no. 07:39:21 as in, not infinitesimal 07:39:25 0.00001 is not large 07:39:26 -!- madbr has quit (Quit: Page closed). 07:39:28 elliott: "standard" means not infinitesimal and not infinite 07:39:30 but it isn't infinitesimal, either 07:39:33 in nonstandard analysis 07:39:41 ais523: hmm, that could work 07:49:31 What's the opposite of purple? 07:56:01 Jafet: purpl 07:56:01 e 07:56:04 green 07:56:09 elprup 07:56:55 checyr 08:01:35 monqy: checyr 08:01:53 checyr 08:01:59 checyr 08:04:01 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8831630/whats-benefits-of-nancyfx 08:06:03 elliott, if you're not here, I won't put your name next to updates, so if when you read logs you only search for your name, you might not see it 08:06:03 What happens if I use the benefits? 08:06:12 thanks 08:06:38 "if i was elliott, that's what i would say" - monqy 08:07:06 elliott: hmm, one of the agora backup lists just got conference spam 08:07:28 ais523: criminal cfj + playerhood inquiry cfj 08:07:31 it's the only reasonable response 08:07:37 * Sgeo doesn't see it 08:07:46 elliott: you can do it 08:07:59 Sgeo: it was sent to tue, are you subscribed to that one? 08:07:59 ais523: but i'd have to figure out a rule to charge them under 08:08:11 err, Sgeo isn't subscribed to tue? 08:08:13 that's worrying 08:08:17 come to think of it, why did tue even accept that? 08:08:31 elliott: 101? 2029? 08:08:33 ais523: presumably they registered for the list 08:08:42 I know I'm subscribed to at least one backup list, not sure if both or not 08:08:55 Sgeo: I'll let the invaders know to use the backup lists 08:09:01 ais523: heh 08:10:16 I wouldn't be able to get to the password reminder thing if I wasn't registered, right? 08:10:55 oh no, reddit was mentioned on slashdot 08:11:01 and I didn't realise it'd lead to a moderation system flamewar until I saw it 08:11:05 I should have done, obviously 08:16:15 Sgeo: it's likely it's just going ito 08:16:18 into your spambox 08:16:53 ais523: "'Smaller' sites like Reddit start the ball rumbling, Slashdot joins in, [...]" 08:16:55 ais523: i lol'd 08:17:02 slashdot "bigger than reddit" 08:17:10 people correct them later 08:17:34 start the ball rumbling? 08:17:38 but yes, most Slashdotters seem to be under the misconception that it's a major site 08:17:52 elliott, it's not in my spambox though 08:17:59 monqy: rumbly ball 08:18:01 IMO it's historically important, and worth subscribing to, but not /large/ 08:18:01 To be fair, once upon a time it was relatively large. 08:18:19 Slashdotting really was a major phenomenon. 08:18:25 ais523: I think the only thing that can be slashdotted nowadays is, e.g. a teacup 08:18:37 But the web grew, and Slashdot did not. 08:18:38 What about that potato web server? 08:18:50 That's teacup-sized. 08:19:03 Note: Either an actual potato or Debian Potato would do. 08:19:15 THE POTATO HAS LANDED 08:19:56 elliott: actually, I think it's more a case of data having got larger 08:20:07 nowadays, webservers are used to serving up gigabyte-large videos 08:20:13 FSVO gigabyte 08:20:36 elliott: well, I know I've watched videos over 1GB large, either metric or binary 08:20:59 ais523++ # metric or binary 08:21:04 "Webservers" aren't used to that; big webservers are 08:21:20 -!- cswords has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:21:46 peer :( 08:22:29 context is that reddit's planning to shut down for a while to protest against SOPA 08:22:45 peer++ # eh resets connectoins and doesn't afraid of anything. 08:22:56 shachaf: no no 08:22:57 bad 08:22:57 person 08:23:00 bad 08:23:07 bad 08:23:10 b 08:23:11 ad 08:23:17 bad!!! 08:23:18 If elliott won't go to the Reddit, the Reddit will come to the elliott. 08:23:31 bad :( 08:23:45 b a d 08:24:01 bad 08:24:40 bad 08:27:07 holy shit. 08:27:14 there's a sour melon flavor of powerade. 08:27:15 it's so 08:27:16 good. 08:27:18 oh my god. 08:27:35 elliott, kallisti SBaHJ update 08:32:31 ooh 08:33:06 fucking incredible 08:33:30 its very good but already hours old 08:33:33 sgeo how could you... 08:33:44 monqy, I only found out about it recently 08:33:52 :o 08:34:57 Sgeo lied to monqy 08:34:59 with his words :( 08:35:10 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 08:35:44 sgeo knows all therefore he knew about the sbahj update BUT DIDN'T SAY ANYTHING 08:35:52 ;_; 08:37:23 what's all this then 08:37:32 kmc: monqy 08:37:47 the channel's in monqy mode 08:37:53 delay expectations of coherency 08:38:00 -!- ais523 has joined. 08:39:59 ais523: "Proving that one never stops learning, Charles Pooh, one of our graph theory developers, pointed out to me that my synonyms item could have been done much better. I had broken one of the very rules that I wrote about in my “10 Tips for Fast Mathematica Code” entry—”Use built-in functions.”? 08:40:02 s/?/"/ 08:40:58 elliott: you /have/ to use built-in functions to get reasonable performance out of Mathematica, as that's what it's tuned for 08:40:59 i've already decohered 08:41:09 BUILT IN FUNCTIONZ 08:41:16 e.g. it's really fast at doing turing machines, but nowhere near as fast at doing sort-of-like-turing-machines-but-not-quite 08:41:33 guido van rossum says that functional languages are the ones where map and filter etc are magical builtins 08:41:45 python isn't functional because you can implement map in a few lines of code 08:42:06 a few lines? how stupidly verbose 08:42:06 well you need them to be builtin if you want performance 08:42:16 22:47:58 how may I get a call stack when my program crashes? 08:42:16 22:48:09 You may not. Thanks for asking. 08:42:20 shachaf: Hey, -xc works /most/ of the time. 08:42:23 #haskell? 08:42:27 hehe 08:42:29 any reasonable functional language should be able to do map, filter, and both folds in three or fewer lines of code, putting line breaks in the natural places 08:42:31 shachaf tells it like it is 08:42:31 kmc: Maybe# 08:42:32 (each, that is) 08:42:33 *! 08:42:44 Maybe# 08:42:46 :D 08:42:47 data Maybe# = Just# a | Nothing# 08:42:51 kmc: Hey, I elaborated a little more later on! 08:42:54 it just uses a null pointer for nothing 08:42:55 it's faster!!!!!!1!!!! 08:42:58 YESSS 08:43:01 omg the optimizationsz 08:43:03 and is otherwise a pionter to the just value 08:43:07 elliott, you're onto something here 08:43:08 that was my interpretation of Maybe# too 08:43:14 that would be srsly better right 08:43:14 this means that Maybe# Int# can't represent 0 08:43:19 although I hadn't thought it through in that much detail 08:43:26 elliott: hmm, Maybe# would have to always use a pointer 08:43:26 elliott, the kind of Maybe# would forbid that anyway 08:43:35 it would be * -> * like the regular Maybe 08:43:41 kmc: nah, kind polymorphism, dude 08:43:43 ais523: Heck, even an unreasonable functional language can pull them off in 10 or 15 lines. 08:44:17 (for my canonical example of "unreasonable functional langauge" I shall point you to clambda) 08:44:19 now I want to invent a functional language in which map is incredibly hard to write 08:45:15 ursala? :P 08:49:12 it's probably only a couple of characters in ursala 08:49:23 and only hard to write, because doing so would actually require learning ursala 08:49:35 ais523: I suspect it's one character; the problem is that you have to write it without using map 08:51:06 * elliott wonders if you can convince repa to stick an array's data at a particular pointer. 08:51:09 first result for ursula is arc forum and the link in the post title is broke :( 08:51:14 I mean 08:51:17 ursula programming language 08:52:11 yeah the site is gone 08:52:38 was it good 08:52:52 elliott, http://hpaste.org/56368 08:53:03 monqy: as consolation: http://arclanguage.org/item?id=6155 08:53:10 it works except sometimes nothing# segfaults 08:53:16 but that's just the price you pay for SPEED 08:53:22 kmc: oh my god 08:53:37 kmc: i want to show #haskell 08:53:41 you should do it 08:53:51 elliott: that post is too mysterious for me to tell if it's good or bad 08:53:59 but it looks a bit on the absolutely crazy side 08:54:21 #comment -[ yes good ]- 08:54:28 kmc: Help!! I've been trying to optimise my code with unboxed Maybes but nothing# sometimes segfaults! http://hpaste.org/56368 08:54:43 elliott u troll 08:54:47 y u troll 08:55:06 kmc: it's ok i put a :P face after it 08:55:20 i really should have put "just say maybe to drugs" as the module haddock 08:55:21 o well 08:55:28 elliott: hlint tells you why it's broken. 08:55:34 You're not usingCamelCase. 08:55:34 kmc: Put it on Hackage. 08:55:37 There is no place to camelcase! 08:55:42 acme-maybehash 08:55:55 kmc: acme-maybe-fast 08:56:14 kmc: I think maybe#'s type doesn't have enough #s in it. 08:56:24 yeah it would be faster if it were maybe### 08:56:36 truly optimized haskell code is about 40% hash by weight 08:56:36 * shachaf Maybe# (Maybe# a) 08:57:00 «just# = M# . unsafeCoerce#» 08:57:07 fuck, why did i compose a newtype constructor with unsafeCoerce# 08:57:08 nothing# should be (void*)0, just# nothing# should be (void*)1, etc. 08:57:10 that's just sloppy 08:57:16 kmc: safety 08:57:19 haskell's all about safety 08:57:39 yeah i used howard's curry to prove that Maybe# exists, in the type system 08:57:47 thanks howard 08:58:02 howard's curry with a side of samosas and bhang lassi 08:58:05 Curry-Howard. Coward. 08:58:16 curry-howard. chowder. 08:58:17 shachaf: I've already said "Hurry-Coward isomorphism". :( 08:58:38 i always dyslexia it into hurry-coward in my head oops 08:58:41 i'll have a jumbo bhang lassi, extra bhang, hold the lassi 08:58:49 monqy: http://web.archive.org/web/20090113084759/http://www.basis.uklinux.net/ursala/ 08:59:01 http://web.archive.org/web/20080704174715/http://www.basis.uklinux.net/ursala/manual.pdf doesn't load :( 08:59:11 at least i can read the 08:59:14 design philosophy 08:59:22 kmc: hey how do i get repa to put an array at an address thanx 08:59:30 moar unsafeCoerce# 08:59:40 if that fails load some FORTRAN into a ByteString and execute it 08:59:51 * Sgeo derpishly just now realizes that you can make isNothing from maybe 08:59:52 damn i should make a quasiquoter for inline FORTRAN 08:59:59 I mean, fromJust and fromMaybe occured to me sooner 08:59:59 then Haskell can take over the scientific HPC world 09:00:07 `addquote damn i should make a quasiquoter for inline FORTRAN 09:00:12 :t maybe True (const False) 09:00:13 forall a. Maybe a -> Bool 09:00:19 799) damn i should make a quasiquoter for inline FORTRAN 09:00:20 (Actually, in one place I'm using maybe where fromMaybe makes more sense 09:00:21 Sgeo, you can make anything that operates on Maybe from maybe 09:00:34 :t maybe Nothing Just -- or did I just blow your mind 09:00:34 It's almost like some kind of dogamorphism. 09:00:35 forall a. Maybe a -> Maybe a 09:00:49 woof woof 09:00:50 @quote ddarius isJust 09:00:50 dogamorphism? 09:00:50 ddarius says: isJust :: Maybe a -> Bool; isJust = unsafeCoerce 09:00:57 unsafeFromForeignPtr sh fptr 09:00:57 = fromFunction sh 09:00:57 (\ix -> unsafePerformIO 09:00:57 $ withForeignPtr fptr 09:00:57 (\ptr -> peekElemOff ptr $ toIndex sh ix)) 09:00:59 it works too (fsvo) 09:01:04 NO REPA NO THAT ISN'T WHAT I WANT 09:01:28 http://mainisusuallyafunction.blogspot.com/2010/09/executing-bytestring.html do it this way 09:02:01 AxioSep 29, 2010 07:32 PM 09:02:01 >> Why not! 09:02:01 For security reasons, of course ! 09:02:01 Unless you want Haskell to be the new C, as far as execution of arbitrary code is concerned… 09:02:08 kmc: you're a bad person. you made haskell insecure 09:02:26 Y¬ 09:02:44 that code segfaultz on my system now 09:02:48 prolly stupid NX bit 09:02:59 More like No funX bit. 09:03:19 * kmc stomps off in search of mprotect binding 09:03:55 kmc: elliott: i could be wrong, but since Addr# has kind # i don't think you're allowed to cast it to Any, are you? 09:04:22 unsafeCoerce# can cast between kinds 09:04:26 it's just that powerful 09:04:38 you can't ignore my techno 09:04:39 Can it cast * to * -> *? 09:04:46 kmc: Your Show instance is wrong. 09:04:55 no your brain is wrong 09:05:16 :( 09:05:23 * elliott cries. 09:06:08 why am i reading repa's code 09:06:32 {-# INLINE [2] force #-} 09:06:33 force arr 09:06:33 = unsafePerformIO 09:06:33 $ do (sh, vec) <- forceIO arr 09:06:33 return $ sh `seq` vec `seq` 09:06:33 Array sh [Region RangeAll (GenManifest vec)] 09:06:36 best indentation ever 09:06:39 idiomatic haskell 09:07:03 Array sh _ 09:07:03 -> do mvec <- VM.unsafeNew (S.size sh) 09:07:03 forceWith (VM.unsafeWrite mvec) arr' 09:07:05 oh! 09:07:09 i could write my own forcing function 09:07:13 assuming vector gives me the kind of placement i need 09:07:17 use strength reduction 09:07:25 wow that indentation 09:07:26 is so good 09:07:36 this must be how dogs see 09:07:58 hmm... Data.Vector.Unboxed.Mutable doesn't have any "cast pointer to vector lol" functions 09:08:07 use storable vector 09:08:15 kmc: oh, fair enough, i thought you were just crazy :P 09:08:29 i should have more booze 09:08:45 kmc: I don't think a storable vector would work. 09:08:57 At least, Repa has unboxed ones under the hood and I don't think they're compatible. 09:09:06 Although I suppose I could throw away the Repa array after forcing it... 09:09:30 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 09:09:58 did you know the last segment of _2001: A Space Odyssey_ synchs up with "Echoes" by Pink Floyd 09:10:11 Whoaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa 09:10:17 Nobody has ever said that in the history of ever. 09:10:45 true fact 09:13:37 Data.Array.Repa.Internals.Forcing isn't exported :( 09:18:10 bleh, I'm trying to print out a marksheet on this Windows computer here 09:18:16 but apparently there isn't enough disk space to open Excel 09:18:21 * ais523 boggles slightly 09:19:08 I can't think of something so important to save upon opening a spreadsheet program that it should refuse to open if it can't save it 09:19:32 meanwhile, OpenOffice, which is also here, complained but allowed me to open the file 09:21:06 Knowing Microsoft? Probably saving a new copy of Excel to disk to run. :P 09:27:31 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 09:27:40 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 09:28:05 heh, OpenOffice crashed, then went into an infinite loop of asking to clear disk space trying to save its recovery data 09:29:08 have you tried deleting something 09:30:29 For example, Excel. 09:31:40 -!- Vorpal has joined. 09:32:55 yes 09:35:31 have you tried starting some fires 09:37:14 maybe it would work better if nothing# were the pointer 1 instead of 0 09:38:29 kmc: What about ~0? 09:38:40 that might be the best pointer of them all 09:49:32 this must be how dogs see use storable vector i should have more booze did you know the last segment of _2001: A Space Odyssey_ synchs up with "Echoes" by Pink Floyd 09:49:40 I wonder which video games from the last 10-20 years will still be widely known in, say, 100 years. Which ones will become (and stay) classics? Some are pretty obvious, like people will most probably know about pacman. Probably super mario as well. 09:49:57 minecraft 09:50:02 doubtful 09:50:10 desert bus 09:50:13 haha 09:50:34 big rig 09:50:35 s 09:50:35 i've never played desert bus 09:50:38 this must be how dogs see 09:50:46 this must be how dogs see 09:50:49 elliott, trying to remember which that one is. I heard the name before... 09:50:52 Dogs see with a storable vector? 09:50:52 this must be how dogs see 09:51:02 this must be how dogs see 09:51:10 Vorpal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Rigs:_Over_the_Road_Racing 09:51:17 oh no, not that game 09:51:27 with the absence of collision detection 09:51:29 "a severe lack of collision detection and frequent violation of the laws of physics were the game's main problems." 09:51:33 Vorpal: Sega Bass Fishing. 09:51:43 100 years from now womankind is extinct and so they only play dating sims 09:51:49 fizzie, I never even heard about that one :P 09:51:59 so this immediately turned into a list of the worst games? 09:52:18 Vorpal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sega_Bass_Fishing "Gameplay: Bass Fishing is an arcade fishing game. Basically, someone choses a character then goes out on a boat to go and catch fish." (The description ends there.) 09:52:39 wow 09:52:39 Best article. 09:53:05 no the best article is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_with_fraudulent_diplomas 09:53:26 I only know about it because it's in the four (four!) games chosen for the Dreamcast Collection for some reason. 09:53:36 "The game struggled with critics due to its narrow nature. However, it did showcase the amazing graphical capabilities of the Dreamcast with the fish moving fluidly to create a smooth fishing experience." 09:53:38 (Sonic Adventure, Crazy Taxi, Space Channel 5: Part 2 and Sega Bass Fishing.) 09:53:40 fizzie, wow. are the other games as bad? 09:54:28 the only one I heard about there is Sonic Adventures. And I can't remember if that is one of the bad or good ones 09:54:45 sounds like its not a good one 09:55:21 there weren't really any good sonic games post-megadrive/genesis (i say this as someone who hasn't played them but reads on the topic a lot) 09:55:23 Sonic Adventure isn't bad; Crazy Taxi is I think a mediocre-to-goodish sandboxy car game; Sega Bass Fishing is... Sega Bass Fishing; and Space Channel 5: Part 2 is some sort of a strange rhythm game thing. 09:56:04 itidus21, I heard that the recent sonic generations is pretty good 09:56:09 "Curious, what would make some of the unicode characters display correctly but others not? I wasn't even aware there was an "inbetween", I thought you either see unicode characters rendered or you don't." 09:56:14 haven't played it. Haven't played /any/ sonic game in fact 09:56:37 fizzie: Isn't Crazy Taxi famous-ish? 09:56:43 sonic and knuckles is pretty cool though.. the way they stack up the cartridges 09:56:48 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/75/CrazyTaxi_cover.png certainly rings a bell at least. 09:56:56 elliott, the font for a start 09:57:06 Sonic Adventure was I think the first "good" 3D Sonic; of course not everyone likes those, but quite a few do. 09:57:09 (most likely cause even) 09:57:17 "The reception at the time of original Dreamcast version was overwhelmingly positive, including reviews from GameSpot and GameSpy being above 90%. The current Game Rankings average ranking is 88%.[11] It became one of the few Sega All Stars games. In Japan, it received an excellent 38 out of 40 from Famitsu.[12] Although criticized for its camera system, framerate issues, and fishing stages with Big, the game was still highly praised for retaining the f 09:57:17 ast and enjoyable gameplay that Sonic was known for in 2D as well as the game's graphics, multiple character storylines, and soundtrack." 09:57:26 sonic and knuckles is pretty cool though.. the way they stack up the cartridges <-- eh? 09:58:09 Vorpal: The Sonic & Knuckles cartridge can be combined with Sonic the Hedgehog 3 to form "Sonic 3 & Knuckles", the game they were supposed to release but ran out of time. :p 09:58:28 fizzie, combined as in physically connect them? 09:58:29 (It can also be combined with Sonic 2 to play as Knuckles in Sonic 2, but that's not such a big change.) 09:58:30 or what 09:58:31 Yes. 09:58:37 interesting 09:58:44 fizzie, so it is an expansion pack of sorts? 09:58:44 You stick Sonic 3 on top of the Sonic & Knuckles game. 09:59:05 or can it be used standalone? 09:59:07 You can also stick other cartridges there, and usually get to play one of the "collect the spheres" bonus levels. 09:59:12 It works as standalone too. 09:59:15 fizzie: I'm imagining you just sort of balance them on top of each other. 09:59:35 fizzie, that is probably an unique system they had there 09:59:37 Vorpal: But when you have Sonic 3 plugged in, you can play through the levels of both in one seamless "story". 09:59:59 Vorpal: Here's a picture: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sega_Genesis-_Sonic_%26_Knuckles_locked_on_to_Sonic3_flipped.jpg 10:00:05 "Remember how UTF-8 was invented. The guys making Plan-9 looked at Unicode and said, "That's a good idea, but it's totally wasting half the bits," then made it up out of scratch. Microsoft could have done the same thing if they had a culture of innovation, but they didn't." 10:00:07 * elliott cries. 10:00:08 I hate reddit. 10:00:21 ... 10:00:34 elliott, that... is just stupid? 10:00:42 yeah UTF-8 is a vastly superior alternative to Unicode 10:00:48 XD 10:00:48 It's half the bits. 10:00:50 lol. it sounds like politics 10:00:58 fungot: Politics! 10:00:59 fizzie: commissioner, mr van velzen has just said. it is true that fisheries play a social and cultural assets. europe' s undertaking in these critical areas must not be general, that it is right for europe to take advantage of the opportunities given to us by citizens at the heart of the socio-economic impact in the applicant countries to the european union 10:01:01 elliott, there are so many things wrong with that stuff 10:01:15 the trick is that you need only the bottom half of a '0' to distinguish it from a 1 10:01:18 fungot, fisheries? Are you talking about that game too? 10:01:18 Vorpal: madam president, ladies and gentlemen, it is essentially a humanitarian response to future situations which might arise. that is why i referred to earlier. 10:01:22 and you don't need the flag or the little base on the '1' neither 10:01:27 so that's some serious space savings 10:01:38 Yay, the guy finally accepted my MONADS. 10:01:43 M O N A D S 10:02:26 this government had a mandate from the public to create UTF-8, Mr. Speaker. Something the opposition ignored due to not being innovative Mr. Speaker 10:02:52 Rabble! 10:02:56 Vorpal: Anyway; in most Sonic games you collect (usually 7) Chaos Emeralds, and then can transform into Super Sonic; when you've got 3+Knuckles plugged in and continue to the latter half after collecting all, you can start collecting Super Emeralds and transform into Hyper Sonic. (Yes, I know how stupid it sounds.) 10:02:56 Rabble rabble rabble! 10:03:31 fizzie, heh 10:03:41 fizzie, and hyper sonic does what? 10:03:54 It's like Super Sonic, except more. 10:03:57 (also super sonic? Nintendo can't have been happy with that one) 10:04:23 "Sonic the Hedgehog 3 and Sonic & Knuckles were originally to be released as one game.[2] However, due to time and money contraints, it was later split into two separate games. However, Sonic & Knuckles contained "Lock-on Technology", where the Sonic & Knuckles cartridge would be put in the Sega Genesis system, and then another game could be placed onto the top of the Sonic & Knuckles cartridge itself.[3]" 10:06:27 i wanna take back my comments about post-megadrive/genesis sonics 10:06:37 itidus21, oh? 10:06:53 since i have indeed not played any, or looked in depth into the question 10:07:03 right 10:07:11 shachaf: Help!! The anti-ByteString-for-Unicode contingent is failing!! 10:07:17 itidus21, I looked at some lets play of the last one at least 10:07:33 elliott: Hey, man, I did my part. 10:07:36 I'm not getting involved. 10:07:40 (Any more.) 10:07:41 i had some kfc and i upset my teeth 10:07:48 Doctor's orders. It's bad for my mental health. 10:08:13 shachaf: IM CRYIN;G 10:08:19 -!- cheater has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 10:08:22 ok i have an idea 10:08:32 elliott: Just... Ignore. 10:08:38 Let them use their ByteStrings for text. 10:08:44 shachaf: They should have merged that Text/UTF-8 stuff just to shut people up about it. 10:08:49 shachaf: Help!! The anti-ByteString-for-Unicode contingent is failing!! <-- what is it about? 10:08:51 ByteStrings for breakfast. 10:08:54 people will never shut up about anything 10:09:06 what about including the data to describe each character in the beginning of the document 10:09:50 ... 10:09:56 like {A = the 2 lines of length 1 forming a 30 degree angle from the top to the bottom and a line in the middle 10:10:02 or something 10:10:13 Like, uh, a PDF file with embedded fonts? 10:10:33 aren't ByteStrings mostly for handling (large) amounts of binary data? As opposed to actual text? 10:10:37 kmc, elliott GreaseMonkey (does GreaseMonkey want on the list?) update 10:10:39 hmm embedded fonts yeah, thats the word i didnt know until now 10:10:39 I think 10:11:05 hi kmc 10:11:05 you could use embedded fonts on every document :D 10:11:11 I'm glad elliott GreaseMonkey got updated 10:11:20 itidus21, you usually embed the used subset of the font in .pdfs 10:11:22 he was getting so rusty 10:11:24 hi elliott 10:11:27 totally unlike his formerly-greasy self 10:11:34 this must be how dogs see 10:12:16 ok so embedded fonts probably isn't the solution to unicode 10:12:21 this must be how dogs see 10:12:27 itidus21, obviously 10:12:27 unicode is a disease, we have the cure 10:12:33 the cure is that foreigners need to learn english 10:12:42 also mathematicians should quit their abstract mumbo jumbo and use real words 10:13:07 elliott, what? Through recursive quotations? 10:13:40 we will convert to ASCII and use the other 128 bytes to encode a series of pleasing softcore pornographic images 10:13:54 kmc, why softcore? 10:14:05 Vorpal: Anyway speaking of stacking cartridges, http://withfriendship.com/images/i/44407/sega-32x.jpg (It's rather slow to load, but did so finally, at least for me.) 10:14:28 fizzie, *waits* 10:14:36 the set of all mathematicians should define a mapping of abstract mumbo jumbo words to real words 10:14:45 ah there 10:14:45 itidus21, they have that 10:14:49 it's called "learn math" 10:14:53 fizzie, what is it? 10:15:12 i was trying to rephrase " also mathematicians should quit their abstract mumbo jumbo and use real words" for irony 10:15:24 fizzie, there is the sonic stuff, and a game genie, what are the rest? 10:15:47 unicode is a disease, we have the cure 10:15:47 the cure is that foreigners need to learn english 10:15:51 i have seen people express this opinion seriously 10:15:56 Vorpal: The bottom layer is a Mega-CD; you put a regular MegaDrive on top to get a CD thing; then stacked on that is a Sega 32X, it's a MegaDrive add-on which has some 32-bit SH2s or whatever, I can't recall the details. 10:16:19 ah 10:16:28 and the thing between that an the game genie? 10:16:41 Vorpal: I can't quite make out what the red-rimmed thing is, and the grey thing seems to say 'cleaning system'. 10:16:48 elliott, sure 10:16:51 fizzie, also: what happened if you put a sonic & knuckles in another sonic & knuckles? 10:17:00 people will also express seriously the opinion that the jews should be rounded up & killed 10:17:04 Vorpal: It exploded. 10:17:10 elliott, really? 10:17:17 Vorpal: I think there are two Sonic & Knuckleses in that pile. 10:17:20 ah 10:17:22 yes indeed 10:17:36 I'm not sure if that tower would actually run, but it looks fancy. 10:17:40 in Germany it is illegal to disparage Unicode 10:18:03 elliott, I guess with enough cartridges you could make a large circle of them. I doubt there isn't any sideways movement possible. 10:18:36 * elliott idly considers answering http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8832624/any-good-articles-on-optimizing-haskell-code. 10:18:47 i have seen people express this opinion seriously <-- ouch 10:18:48 it would be more cool if the combined object resembled a humanoid robot with a sword 10:19:07 Vorpal: Here's another confusing contraption: https://img.skitch.com/20111206-bg8k8khjfknd7siqbj825nph18.jpg 10:19:40 I'm not sure if that tower would actually run, but it looks fancy. <-- hm I guess there could be issues with power, and at some point also the signal levels 10:19:51 fizzie, not quite as absurd 10:20:08 this is what it should resemble http://gadgetsin.com/uploads/2011/11/robot_shaped_4_port_usb_hub_3.jpg 10:20:36 fizzie, but big flat thing without support for most of it looks dangerous to the connector 10:21:07 * Sgeo wonders if the Robozzle Silverlight interface can be made to work 10:21:17 Vorpal: Yeah. I don't really know what they have there; there's the more compact Mega-CD unit, but I can't be sure what's under the 32X. The game second-to-top is Sonic & Knuckles again, but I'm not sure what that thing is where the controller wires go. 10:21:51 -!- cheater has joined. 10:22:10 fizzie, no description offered on the page it was on? 10:22:23 No, it was a second-hand find. 10:22:27 ah 10:22:32 fizzie, same for the other picture? 10:22:53 Yes. "I can’t quite name everything I see in this picture, so if someone wants us to give a piece by piece rundown feel free." 10:22:55 also that cleaning system thingy looks highly suspect. Cleaning what. 10:23:18 Ah, there's a commenter. "You’ve got a Sega 32X plugged into the base console (as it should be) but then the Master System adapter plugged into that (which may or may not be a functional combination), then a cleaning cartredge plugged into the master system adapter (which is just a piece of plastic with scrubby bits on the ends), so that completely breaks any functionality it may have had. Then a Game Geneie, two copies of Sonic and Knuckles (no reaso 10:23:18 n) and then Sonic 3. Also, a Sega CD to the side." 10:23:37 "About the biggest functional stack you could have would be Console + Sega CD + 32x, +Game Genie + Sonic & Knuckles, + another cart. 10:23:37 Or maybe if the 32x supports the master system adapter you could have Console + CD + 32x + Master System Adapter + Master System cart. (I don’t think there was a master system game genie)" 10:24:13 heh 10:24:54 Vorpal: Anyway, Sega once made a handheld that played MegaDrive cartridges, so purely theoretically (and connector-wise) you could also plug in all that stuff (well, not the Mega-CD) into this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sega-Nomad-Front.png 10:25:08 That would probably look even more ludicrous. 10:25:14 heh 10:25:34 "32X Add-on: Cannot be played on the Nomad due to an obscure cartridge shape that can't fit in the Nomad's cartridge slot." 10:25:35 Aw. 10:25:41 fizzie: I'm imagining a project to plug as many pieces of tech into each other as possible. 10:26:03 Like, start from a laptop with a shitload of USB hubs, then USB adapters to everything, ..., TV, console, catridge, ... 10:26:07 You could fill a house with it. 10:26:09 I don't really think 32X would run (at least for long) with batteries, anyway. 10:26:42 It's got 30 minutes of battery life with non-rechargable batteries, anyway. :p 10:27:01 fizzie, heh 10:27:33 did anyone ever make a laptop that's powered by a small internal combustion engine 10:27:40 kmc: Hi, how can I create a list with an immutable length please? 10:27:50 like the ones on model aircraft 10:27:52 elliott, hm, you could probably do even more with a desktop 10:28:13 #esoteric: All the frustration of #haskell, with none of the good parts of #haskell! 10:28:34 elliott, I have like 8 USB 2 ports on the back (iirc), two USB 3 ports, two USB 2 on the front and one USB 3 on the front 10:28:45 2 in the front, 1 in the back 10:28:48 shachaf: Yep! 10:29:01 kmc, that sounds more like a laptop? 10:29:08 except it would be the side there 10:29:22 oh wait, misread the context 10:29:22 They've had some fuel cell laptop prototypes, but that probably doesn't count as a combustion engine. 10:29:33 now merijn will guess not only the question but the entire backstory of the question-asker 10:29:43 haha 10:29:50 kmc: elliott: I suspect python experience, because python's tuples are essentially immutable lists 10:30:39 elliott, the most USB ports I ever seen on a laptop was 6 hm. 2-4 is more usual 10:31:02 Vorpal: Thus the hubs. 10:31:17 elliott, yes but there is a limit to the number of devices on a single host controller 10:31:19 127 iirc 10:31:39 elliott, since every port on my desktop has a separate host controller that means a lot more devices 10:31:49 Vorpal: I never said it had to work. 10:31:54 elliott, oh 10:31:58 I assumed it had to 10:32:09 Well, it would be cooler. 10:33:38 elliott, I also have firewire hm (and so does my laptop). Might be rather hard to find any device that supports that these days 10:33:40 You can connect any amount of computers with wires (the technical term is "net-work", I believe) but maybe that's contrary to the spirit. 10:33:54 but I believe the limit for firewire is 63 devices? 10:33:57 or some such 10:33:58 per chain 10:34:52 fizzie, well obviously you could easily fill a house with that yes. And networked printers (especially since those tend to be rather large), NASes and what not 10:35:21 let's fill the planet with interconnected computers 10:35:23 fizzie: Well, you want to optimise for the number of different device-types. 10:35:25 i call it "the internet" 10:35:28 kmc: Some kind of... internetworking? 10:35:31 Vorpal: They make those clevur eSATA/USB hybrid ports into laptops too these days. 10:35:42 oh yes I have one or two eSATA ports too 10:35:47 none of the hybrid ones 10:35:53 (on my desktop) 10:36:01 (no such thing on my laptop, it is too old) 10:36:13 (like, uh, almost 3 years) 10:36:19 "As the port is designed to work with both SATA and USB, neither organization has formally approved it. USB-IF states it does not support any connector used by other standards, these combo ports are to be used at your own risk,[1] -- 10:36:30 "You'll plug your eye out?" 10:36:39 s/\?/!/ 10:36:44 fizzie, what? 10:37:10 The "at your own risk" makes it sound like that. 10:37:17 also what about that new intel/apple thingy. The uh, lightsomething 10:37:20 forgot the name of it 10:37:28 Thunderbolt. 10:37:31 ah 10:37:38 elliott, I'm pretty sure it used to be lightsomething 10:37:41 did they rename it? 10:37:48 Thunderbolts and lightning, very very frightening. 10:38:09 Light Peak was a codename for it. 10:38:11 does anything use it (apart from apple products)? 10:38:13 fizzie, ah okay 10:39:30 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmCVYbTWU60 10:41:10 -!- cheater has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 10:42:39 hm they dropped the actual fibre stuff? How boring 10:43:08 Can't send power over fibre (yet). 10:43:28 But yes, it's just boring copper. 10:43:35 fizzie, yes you could by using a solar cell thingy at the end :P 10:43:59 but more seriously you could use fibre for the data and copper for the power in the same cable 10:44:54 it is not like you wouldn't need separate wires for data and power anyway 10:45:27 (well okay, you can do networking over the mains and such, but iirc performance is rather bad) 10:46:50 1-wire does it 10:47:15 Copper is also cheaper, which is probably the more important reason. 10:47:29 kmc, hm, not familiar with that bus (though I heard the name before, and thought "what a generic name"). But what is the data rate over that? 10:47:38 dallas 1-wire 10:47:40 also how does it form a circuit? 10:47:43 and the data rate is not that high 10:47:49 it's 2 wires incl. ground 10:47:53 ah right 10:47:59 there's a ground wire and a power/data wire 10:48:25 kmc, anyway for high speed connections (over copper) you usually use differential signaling afaik 10:48:30 yeah 10:48:49 I wonder how that works for stuff like networking over the mains 10:48:59 you can't really do that there 10:49:10 Not quite 2x2x10Gbps over 1-wire, I don't think. 10:49:27 indeed 10:49:58 what sort of data rate does 1-wire have? I would guess in the range of kbps 10:51:25 also youtube just spazzed out. It now says that every video was uploaded 42 years ago for me 10:51:26 wtf 10:51:44 (in the channel video list thingy) 10:51:50 (the date on the actual video is correct) 10:51:57 wait no, they are not correct 10:51:59 they are all today 10:52:01 okay wtf 10:54:40 I think the common ("homeplug"/IEEE1901) ethernet-over-power-lines just uses fancy modulation (xDSL-style) and high-enough frequencies, so that they carry over the neutral wire. 10:54:48 -!- cheater has joined. 10:55:01 ah 10:55:28 do they transmit only around the AC zero crossing, or all the time 10:55:31 fizzie, xDSL uses phase modulation iirc? 10:55:51 (which I have to admit I have no clue how it works) 10:56:37 kmc: I know of that thing solely thanks to menuconfig. 10:56:59 elliott, ah yes that is where I have seen 1-wire before 10:57:01 thanks 10:57:38 hmm, that was fun 10:57:43 going over past exam questions in a tutorial 10:57:49 there was a "spot the six mistakes in this code" question 10:57:51 and we found nine 10:57:54 :D 10:58:34 ais523, were three of them much less obvious than the other 6? 10:58:57 I don't think so 10:59:02 strange 10:59:03 although some of them stemmed from the same root cause 10:59:08 ah 10:59:16 there was an array that wasn't initialized at all, and initializing it just brought up more problems 10:59:28 which language was it? 10:59:38 Java 10:59:41 hm 10:59:51 but it would have been the same in C, apart from the different syntax for allocating an array on the heap 11:00:56 Vorpal: I seem to recall at least ADSL supporting more than one modulation scheme (admittedly they could all be phase-related variants), using the "most suitable" one for each frequency subband. But I'm no telecomm engineer. 11:01:23 quite possible 11:03:43 -!- cheater has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 11:07:00 At least QAM is used, and that's sort-of amplitude-and-phase-modulation. 11:08:10 ais523: I have all the (Be)Funge specifications I'm aware of but no tutorials, sorry. 11:08:16 * Sgeo had alcohol in his mouth :/ 11:08:35 fizzie, QAM? 11:08:46 oh "Quadrature amplitude modulation" 11:08:51 wth is that 11:09:04 It's what they use very much. 11:09:09 right 11:09:33 Deewiant, ais523 was looking for a funge tutorial? Why? 11:10:02 hm how many esolangs have tutorials? 11:10:04 Vorpal: email request 11:10:13 heh 11:10:17 ais523, due to IFFI? 11:10:21 no 11:10:25 due to me being known as an esolanger 11:10:28 ah 11:10:41 I can't think of a single esolang that I know of any tutorial for 11:11:15 ais523, are there intercal tutorials? 11:11:22 ais523: I don't think it's possible to have an "uninitialized" array in Java; all you can have is an array with elements initialized to their default values, which might informally count as one. (Cf. JLS 15.10.1p5 "Run-time Evaluation of Array Creation Expressions: ...array is created of the specified length, and each component of the array is initialized to its default value...") 11:11:30 Vorpal: one unfinished one by Clinton Forbes 11:11:40 fizzie: I meant a null pointer where an array should be 11:11:44 heh 11:12:07 I've been wondering about writing one myself, but I'm not sure if there's an audience 11:12:13 perhaps I'll write a monad tutorial instead to annoy elliott 11:12:32 ais523, I might read it. Actually being able to code in intercal would be cool 11:12:55 ais523: Does that "unfinished one" equal the "Diving into INTERCAL" blog? 11:13:09 Oh, the name's at the end of the comments; apparently so. 11:13:26 fizzie: yes 11:13:43 Vorpal: I think the author got lost right around when he tried to make a non-infinite loop 11:13:44 So which animal would the O'Reilly INTERCAL book have? 11:14:09 fizzie: it wouldn't, it'd be an O'Reilly book but it'd have something that no other O'Reilly book has on its cover 11:14:19 different in nature, rather than just a different animal 11:14:48 O'Reilly has quite a few non-animal books already. 11:15:20 oh, in that case, it'd have to just not have a cover at all 11:15:42 They have a set of "X Hacks" books which have tool covers, for example. 11:15:48 perhaps I'll write a monad tutorial instead to annoy elliott 11:15:56 ais523: Is "annoyance" an appropriate description of a murder? 11:16:06 * Sgeo had alcohol in his mouth :/ 11:16:09 Sgeo: You am will die now. 11:16:22 -!- cheater has joined. 11:17:02 So which animal would the O'Reilly INTERCAL book have? 11:17:05 An alot, perhaps? 11:17:09 fizzie: Also you SPACED AFTER THAT QUESTION AGAIN. 11:17:20 IT KEEPS HAPPENING. 11:17:24 fizzie: Should I set up a bot that does annoying things on "\? $"? 11:17:26 Perhaps even: happening. 11:17:30 That might help you kick the habit. 11:17:32 elliott, why do you care about that space? 11:17:37 Vorpal: It's bad for him. 11:17:40 elliott, why 11:17:48 it's not as bad as the enigma punctuation style ! 11:17:57 Vorpal: Stop being irresponsible. 11:18:02 ais523: Isn't that just French? 11:18:11 elliott, no I'm curious. 11:18:40 elliott: perhaps, but it still gets on my nerves slightly 11:18:47 especially when sentences I write, in English, are corrected to it 11:18:56 ais523: wat 11:19:04 hmm, I wonder if there are Funge-98 tutorials in the #esoteric logs 11:19:09 Why do the There She Is animations take so long to load? 11:19:19 elliott: a level I submitted to Enigma is officially called "Choices, choices ..." 11:19:38 ais523: :( 11:19:41 ais523: kill them all 11:20:00 * Sgeo should play Enigma 11:20:10 Sgeo: do 11:20:13 even if development is mostly dead 11:20:13 Is it annoying to play with a touchpad? 11:20:20 I got used to it surprisingly quickly 11:20:25 it does take some getting used to, though 11:20:41 and a lot of tweaking of the mouse speed option (which you can do using left and right in-game, so they probably realised it'd be necessary) 11:20:47 ais523, I never managed to play it with a trackpoint 11:21:13 and you need that tweaking when using the mouse depending on the level 11:21:16 a trackpoint sounds perfect for enigma 11:21:41 elliott, it really isn't 11:21:51 elliott, the level of control is too low 11:22:01 as in, not exact enough 11:22:31 `pastlog funge 11:22:32 Why are there so few trackballs around? I want to fondle some balls. :/ 11:22:44 fizzie: we have a trackball on the desktop at home, because there isn't enough table space for a mouse 11:22:56 thumb trackball, I find them much superior to the finger-controlled versions 11:23:06 No output. 11:24:06 " ais523: what's the opposite of infinitesimal?" on hyperreals, you can at least say finite for all nonzero values in R afaik. 11:24:12 Those "rod mice" are weird too. I don't know the term for it. There's a horizontally positioned rod, slightly like an oversized pencil, and you rotate it to go up/down, and do something, I don't know quite what, to move sideways. 11:24:14 ais523, how do they compare to mice? 11:24:17 oklofok: i was looking for something a little snappier 11:24:21 apparently ais523 already answered 11:24:38 fizzie: The privilege of fondling balls is restricted to the chosen few. 11:25:19 Vorpal: easy to use but slightly slower 11:25:44 easier to use in what way? Better precision or what? 11:26:06 they really obviously convey the assumptions behind Fitt's Law; with a mouse moving it is one motion and the adjustments are subconcious, with a trackball you notice yourself making them 11:26:08 Gah, I can't find even a picture of the horizontal-rod thing. What *are* they called? 11:26:09 and I didn't say easier to use 11:26:16 just, they aren't massively difficult to use 11:26:29 ah 11:26:31 I misread 11:26:32 sorry 11:26:33 `pastlog funge 11:26:36 `pastlog funge 11:26:38 `pastlog funge 11:26:39 `pastlog funge 11:26:41 `pastlog funge 11:26:43 what 11:26:48 `echo test 11:26:51 Vorpal: trying to find funge tutorials in the logs 11:26:59 -98, that is 11:27:01 ais523, I doubt spamming it helps 11:27:07 No output. 11:27:08 Vorpal: I wanted five different results 11:27:19 ais523, I thought pastelog includes all 11:27:25 "past", not "paste". 11:27:27 test 11:27:30 oops 11:27:36 No output. 11:27:47 Seems what you got was five similar results, sadly. 11:27:47 pastelog's an interesting thought 11:27:48 might be too much output, though 11:27:51 I'll try anyway 11:27:53 `pastlog funge 11:27:53 `pastlog funge 11:27:53 `pastlog funge 11:27:53 `pastlog funge 11:27:53 `pastlog funge 11:27:54 `pastlog funge 11:28:04 c Gah, I can't find even a picture of the horizontal-rod thing. What *are* they called? 11:28:06 fizzie: Roller mice? 11:28:19 Yes. 11:28:25 Apparently. 11:28:26 so umm, we say a minsky machine is somewhat reversible if it has only one configuration (say state f, zero counters) where it doesn't have a successor and only one config (say state i, zero counters) which doesn't have a predecessor, and it's injective on all configs. 11:28:36 I'd'nvr've thought. 11:28:45 ("never" is not really easy to stick in like that.) 11:28:49 is it undecidable whether you reach the final config from the initial one? 11:28:55 fizzie: I'd'ne'er've thought. 11:29:31 No output. 11:29:47 we need this for a paper, but i don't know anything about minsky machines because computer science is such bleh :/ 11:30:23 No output. 11:30:23 No output. 11:30:23 No output. 11:30:28 Gah, I can't find even a picture of the horizontal-rod thing. What *are* they called? <-- oh yes, I only remember seeing them in the context of health care receptionists and similar 11:30:29 oklofok: sorry we're all programmers here try #computejerisjojicience 11:30:33 oklofok: what do you mean by injective, here? 11:30:48 ais523: all configs that have successors have different successors 11:30:59 so all except the final config that doesn't have a successor. 11:31:29 ah, I was going to pigeonhole principle it, but then realised there are infinitely many states (obviously) 11:31:41 No output. 11:31:41 No output. 11:31:43 No output. 11:31:44 well infinitely many configurations 11:31:45 No output. 11:31:45 No output. 11:31:52 -!- pikhq has joined. 11:32:24 i have a state part taken from a finite set and a finite number of counters. values for those together i call a config 11:32:24 where's the logs repo? 11:32:42 I'll do this on my local machine, easier that way 11:32:55 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 11:33:15 ais523: !logs 11:33:20 from this we'd get that stability of a CA from a zero entropy SFT is undecidable 11:33:20 !logs 11:33:38 by running the machine backwards and some magic 11:34:04 thanks 11:34:55 oklofok: I don't see an obvious reason why reversibility would suddenly make termination decidable in an infinite-state program 11:34:59 but ofc that's not the same thing as a proof 11:36:40 reversibility certainly doesn't, but the specific problem statement might. 11:37:10 reversible minsky machines have a lot of undecidable problems, but we need a concrete reduction 11:37:17 oklofok: wait, how many counters does this machine have? 11:37:33 as many as you like. two will suffice. 11:37:42 (two always suffices) 11:37:45 right, ofc 11:37:49 oklofok: zero, one, infinity 11:38:10 that doesn't apply when you can prove something different happens at 2. 11:38:21 ais523: http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/ob9oj/til_about_planethaskellorg/c3g3rfp?context=1 11:38:25 elliott, this one is way better: http://hpaste.org/56369 11:38:26 ais523: you know what you have to do... 11:38:27 but we're not restricting the counters anyway. 11:38:49 kmc: you need pseq, not seq 11:38:51 given various assumptions about GHC, it even won't segfault 11:38:54 F- sloppy 11:38:57 sux 11:38:57 (I think) 11:39:01 you're right though 11:39:04 * kmc hangs head in shame 11:39:07 for the journal version, we're planning to completely characterize the types of computation CA can do depending on the particular subshift 11:39:32 (zero entropy sofic subshift) 11:39:42 . o O ( unsafePerformIO ( evaluate x >> return y ) ) 11:39:58 it will be so awesome and no one will ever read it :) 11:40:00 kmc: isn't that just pseq but slower 11:40:09 oklofok: heh 11:40:13 sometimes I feel that way about my papers 11:40:16 unsafePerformIO (return $! x >>= return >> return y) -- i cba to expand it beyond this 11:40:26 unsafeDupablePerformIO ( evaluate x >> return y ) 11:40:31 hmm, no, pseq uses that lazy trick 11:40:38 fix (>=> return) 11:41:25 we have 7 papers of original research now where i'm a coauthor (or sole author), so technically i could write up two phd theses based on those. 11:41:33 anyway i think this one is almost a reasonable api for users 11:41:40 except just# nothing# == nothing# 11:41:47 (4 are required, 3 would probably be tolerated) 11:41:49 kmc: just special-case nothing# in just# 11:41:55 bleh 11:42:00 kmc: by dynamically allocating new nothings 11:42:04 too many pigeons, not enough holes 11:42:13 i wonder if elliott will love me if i do two phds this year. 11:42:22 oklofok: y 11:42:24 oklofok, at the same time? 11:42:30 kmc: yes. 11:42:34 -- A nullary constructor gives a distinguished boxed value. 11:42:34 data Nothing# = Nothing# 11:42:38 note that i'm planning to do 0 11:42:38 kmc: so if it's boxed what does the # represent 11:42:40 * kmc has never "done" anyone with a PhD 11:42:48 elliott, dope 11:42:55 2003-09-25 15:50:10: I'm afraid I'll end up writing a mathematica-based befunge interpreter. happens with every new language I learn. 11:43:04 kmc: ah 11:43:29 ais523: Never did. (Or if I did, I've forgotten about it.) 11:43:33 man now i'm embarrassed i've never slept with anyone who has a graduate degree 11:43:41 much less two of them at the same time 11:43:42 good, I'm vaguely glad you didn't 11:43:53 seems my hatred for mathematica is greater than my love for befunge 11:44:17 kmc: does masturbation count? 11:44:18 I did some "pretty pictures with IFS" and that was about it. 11:44:21 -!- cheater has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 11:44:30 well i don't have a graduate degree, so no 11:44:43 i know, someone without a PhD, programming Haskell 11:44:45 you can't make the rules based on whether you would win o_O 11:44:47 "Earn Earn Earn Earn Money Money Online Poundpyramid.com" 11:44:47 sounds impossible but here i am 11:44:54 that doesn't look like a plausible search query… 11:45:27 kmc: did you at least get your degree in haskell 11:45:33 the most academic of subjects 11:45:48 the nonexistent degree? 11:45:49 ais523: i know i want to earn earn earn earn money money online poundpyramid.com 11:46:00 poundpyramid.com sounds legit enough 11:46:19 it's a pound scheme 11:46:31 oklofok: possibly is, spambots often spam the names of legit sites to try to beat them in the search rankings 11:46:46 so many people search for a site rather than just visiting it… 11:47:37 ais523: it's squatted 11:48:09 (diff) (hist) . . Language list‎; 07:32 . . (-790) . . 76.174.173.118 (Talk) (dag yall they was spammin up that shizzle i love this site i do not wanna see some spammed up sheezy) 11:48:09 (diff) (hist) . . Language list‎; 03:48 . . (+266) . . 149.255.39.50 (Talk) (Kathy, the content you have graciously shared with us every once in a while is both inspiring and entertaining. And a blog is the perfect medium for this. A lot of the content is about your style and) 11:48:21 2004-09-14 21:49:24: what's rms? 21:51:31: ZeroOne: richard stallman, stallman.org 11:48:27 wow 11:49:10 elliott: also, 2004-11-04 is an awesome log, read all of it (it's also very short) 11:49:43 well, it's certainly short 11:50:05 2004-11-05 is in the same "genre". 11:50:25 ais523: haha, two days later slava joins 11:50:32 who's slava? 11:50:37 ais523: pestov 11:50:42 ah, right 11:50:47 I have heard of him, but can't remember why 11:50:48 hmm, jDoctor, I remembe that name from old #concatenative logs... I guess it must have been mentioned there 11:50:50 ais523: jEdit, Factor 11:50:55 ah, OK 11:51:00 I remember now 11:51:30 hmm, this channel really has got more active over time 11:51:33 even though it feels like less 11:51:37 it's got less ontopic, though 11:51:46 03:35:33: i'm working on stack effect inference for postfix languages 11:51:46 hehe, factor has that 11:51:54 ais523: feels like less? 11:52:01 the last time people said this channel was dying was like 2005 11:52:08 elliott: I don't think it's less active 11:52:15 just that I have rose-tinted memories of it 11:52:24 come to think of it, I probably considered bsmnt_bot ontopic 11:52:45 ais523, are you talking about activity as number of lines said or number of persons saying stuff? 11:52:51 oh heh, just came across Gregor's first visit to the channel, advertising FYB 11:52:57 Vorpal: pretty much any plausible metric 11:53:04 even absolute amount of ontopic conversation, possibly 11:53:04 because elliott talks a lot (and so did I use to, I think I'm less active these days) 11:53:07 (rather than proportion) 11:53:10 and so do I 11:53:14 The number of "q" letters spoken. 11:53:25 08:28:34: why do you have those discussions at 05-06am? 11:53:25 08:39:28: I don't 11:53:25 08:44:29: 05:50:44 < heatsink> ooh, you do continuations too! 11:53:25 08:44:32: see, with proof. 11:53:37 fizzie, you should do a new graph showing who spoke most during the last year or so 11:53:38 elliott: I hadn't heard of time zones yet. 11:53:46 fizzie: :D 11:53:48 They're so confusing. 11:53:59 It's now... but it's not now now somewhere else. 11:54:06 It's, like... not now. Now. 11:54:13 Vorpal: I'd like to amend that request: fizzie: you should do a new graph showing me to be the top in whatever it is you're grapinh. 11:54:22 Also it could be yesterday or tomorrow now. 11:54:26 elliott, hah 11:54:28 *mind blown* 11:54:29 fizzie: It is. 11:54:48 22:22:04: anybody thought about building a smart compiler that could optimize by replacing poor algorithms with better ones? 11:54:48 22:22:44: so if the programmer has used e.g. bubble sort the compiler would detect that and actually use quick sort 11:55:10 sufficiently genius compiler 11:55:13 isn't it always two dates on earth except in one specific instant? 11:55:25 probably would be mostly useless, because it's easier to just use library sort rather than implement it yourself 11:55:31 (per 24h period of course) 11:55:35 Vorpal: no, sometimes it's three 11:55:38 22:31:20: not related, but mooz could perhaps say something here about his "random programs" experiments. 11:55:38 22:31:37: hmm 11:55:38 22:31:40: it's esoteric enough. 11:55:38 22:32:14: apparently he keeps finding composite-number-factoring algorithms at a surprisingly high rate. :p 11:55:42 there are timezones that are more than 24 hours off UTC 11:55:42 fizzie: do tell, eight years later 11:55:47 ais523, oh okay 11:55:55 ais523, then I guess there are always 2 or 3 ones then 11:55:58 maybe the compiler could identify pieces of code that seem to remake an stdlib algo and give a warning though 11:56:12 ais523, also you mean 12 hours off? 11:56:17 ais523: I don't think there are; I mean, there are timezones with more than 24 hours difference between them, but... 11:56:31 -!- cheater has joined. 11:56:33 oh, the channel turned 9 years old last month 11:56:45 elliott, oh nice, and we completely missed the bday 11:56:53 elliott: has it been logged from the start? 11:56:58 ais523: almost 11:57:04 fizzie: I thought there were 11:57:11 oh, I must have meant more than 12 11:57:19 indeed 11:57:26 EFNet #esoterica: 9 dec 2002; lament proposes OpenProjects 8 dec (?!); "OK, so now we can be found at OPN, #esoteric (it's ours!)." 9 dec 11:57:32 anyway why more than 12 hours off? That is just silly 11:57:37 oh -- 8 dec was in UTC-0800 11:57:45 so yeah, 9 dec 11:57:46 hmm, befunge.org was all the rage back in 2005 11:57:50 fizzie: when are your early logs from, again? 11:57:51 Vorpal, 'cause it sucks if your neighbors are on a different day from you 11:57:53 and now it's been gone so long people can't even be bothered to squat it 11:58:04 either that, or fizzie is hanging onto the domain but isn't using it for anything 11:58:07 Vorpal: It goes up to UTC+14 in one direction, but only UTC-12 the other. 11:58:08 kmc, hm 11:58:16 ais523: he noted it was going to be dropped in here 11:58:17 14? wow 11:58:18 ais523: No, I let it expire. 11:58:43 in that case, I'm shocked it isn't being squatted 11:58:50 I thought expired domains got squatted forever just i ncase 11:58:51 like the Chatham Islands are 45 minutes ahead of New Zealand rather than 23 hours 15 minutes behind 11:59:19 fizzie: so /did/ you ever teach your girlfriend befunge? 11:59:36 kmc, 45 minutes. So not even full hour steps... 11:59:42 "Disagreed. In my way of thinking, scopes are static, and I/O is no more 11:59:42 in violation of scopes than passing of parameters or other such phenomena." 11:59:43 "As a British colony, Kiribati was centered in the Gilbert Islands, just west of the old date line. Upon independence in 1979, the new republic acquired the Phoenix and Line Islands from the United States and the country found itself straddling the date line. Government offices on opposite sides of the line could only communicate by radio or telephone on the four days of the week when both sides experienced weekdays simultaneously. A con 11:59:43 sequence of this time zone revision was that Kiribati, by virtue of its easternmost territory, the Line Islands, including the inhabited Kiritimati island, started the year 2000 on its territory before any other country on earth, a feature which the Kiribati government capitalized upon as a potential tourist draw." 11:59:46 elliott: I don't recall when they are, and it's always such a chore to find them. There weren't very many days' worth of them. 11:59:52 languages that definitely should stay in wikipedia, are in my opinion the following: brainfuck, befunge, thue, malbolge, unlambda 11:59:53 ais523: seems like esoteric discussion being off-topic dates back to the lists :P 12:00:14 elliott: remember when we were discussing the list of top-stream esolangs? 12:00:19 (UTC+14) 12:00:30 Vorpal, yeah, half-hour timezones are pretty common; 15 minute less so but there are some 12:00:35 I think that's the same as our list, plus thue and malbolge, minus underload as it hadn't been invented yet 12:00:45 fizzie: Well, there are about ~40 days from the founding of the channel to clog. 12:00:50 also, whitespace, false and shakespeare were suggested in that conversation 12:00:59 ais523: err, which list? 12:01:10 kmc, I want a 2.512 minute timezone. 12:01:10 :D 12:01:24 oh 12:01:25 ais523: Well, I've spoken about the topic quite a few times, but not so much that you could call it "teach". 12:01:26 elliott: we were discussing a while back a list of esolangs that were best-known or most worthy of study 12:01:27 (or any other similarly small offset) 12:01:33 the classics of esolangs, as it were 12:01:41 ais523: my list was brainfuck, intercal, unlambda, underload, malbolge, I think 12:02:00 ais523: I'd add /// and BCT, personally 12:02:02 and strongly reject Thue 12:02:08 even if it is more well-known than /// 12:02:10 Vorpal, a few countries have declared their timezone to be centered on the capital 12:02:15 my list is toi, clue and oklotalk. 12:02:18 leading to shit like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTC%2B04:51 and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTC%E2%88%9200:44 12:02:27 ^__^ 12:02:28 oklofok: oklopol-clue, or keymaker-clue? 12:02:36 ais523: keymaker-clue obviously 12:02:42 oklopol-clue is just silly 12:02:42 i've heard rumors of a Riyadh Mean Solar Time which adjusted every day based on sunrise in Riyadh 12:03:00 kmc, heh 12:03:01 one of the few timezones so fucked it's not in the tz database 12:04:13 elliott: "At 03:16 24/07/2001 -0500, Chris Pressey wrote: >Has anyone organized an esoteric IRC meeting place yet?" -- "Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 20:39:33 -0700 (MST) ... I hang out on EFNet when I am home, nick: calamari. But, I can also stay in undernet irc.undernet.org port 6667 channel #esolang" 12:04:16 Ooh, predecessors. 12:04:22 I don't think I ever joined *that*, though. 12:04:32 fizzie: "I can also". 12:04:46 fizzie: I imagine he joined it just because of that message. 12:04:53 And left the next time his IRC client restarted. 12:04:53 kmc, I first read that as Rlyeh 12:04:54 XD 12:05:14 haha 12:05:55 R'lyeh standard time. I wonder what that would be like 12:06:56 Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 12:39:12 +0300 (EEST), atehwa writes: "As for a real answer about _IRC_ channels, I think somebody founded a channel in DALnet." 12:07:12 atehwa: ELABORATE 12:07:41 fizzie: I bet there's a flourishing esolangs community on some other network that we've just never heard of. 12:07:48 how do we know we're the real #esoteric and there's not one with 500 ppl on another network o_O 12:07:54 ... 12:07:55 :D 12:07:58 it's practically guaranteed now. 12:08:02 yes 12:08:05 oh dear fuck 12:08:18 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8834582/is-haskell-a-lisp-dialect 12:08:33 someone actually voted that up 12:08:43 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esoteric_programming_languages#Internet_community "There is a mailing list, but it is nearly abandoned and most discussion happens on the wiki (see below) or on IRC." Perhaps *they* are the "on IRC" part of that. 12:09:54 "Turing completeness is a favorite topic of discussion, since it is not immediately obvious whether or not a language is Turing complete, and it often takes rather large intuitive leaps to come to a solution." is this really correct usage of "intuitive leap"? 12:10:03 no 12:10:16 i have a feeling that article is very bad 12:10:26 idea: esolang that's forward-polish, but not because it parses forward-polish, rather because it has a stack of functions 12:10:30 i was wondering if i'm just misunderstanding the sentence it fundamentally 12:10:51 just like you do reverse-polish with a stack of values 12:11:00 hmm, now I'm wondering if you could make it concatenative 12:11:02 Heh, in May 2008 the sentence read "There is a mailing list, but it is nearly abandoned and most discussion happens on the wiki (see below)." 12:11:02 oklofok: it fundamentally 12:11:04 and thus a sort of dual to Underload 12:11:04 i guess it often does require some intuitive leaps: "well brainfuck can simulate itself so obv it's tc" 12:11:19 elliott: yes not just fundamentally but IT fundamentally 12:11:23 oklofok: there are sub-TC languages that can simulate themselves 12:11:28 Text, for example 12:11:33 yeah 12:11:41 and you'd need quite an intuitive leap to prove it tc 12:11:49 Chris, you're saying a lot of silly things in this mailing list archive. :/ 12:11:51 Some "oerjan" dude has added the bit about IRC. I wonder if e means the five-thousand-person real community on NeverHeardNet, or this channel. 12:12:03 fizzie: He's the spy sent to keep us in the dark. 12:12:04 -!- cheater has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 12:12:58 what if there's life outside earth? :O that would be even worse 12:13:09 elliott: do you consider Ruby a Lisp dialect? 12:13:23 ais523: all languages are lisp dialects, apart from scheme 12:13:26 fizzie, I never seen a channel with 5000 persons in it except when I was watching a stress test of an ircd (using bots) 12:13:27 scheme is a clojure dialect 12:14:08 CAN SOMEONE PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME WHY SOMEBODY UPVOTED THAT QUESTION, CHRIST 12:14:41 Vorpal: Me neither, but maybe NeverHeardNet is much more popular. (On this side of the fence, Ubuntu seems to have 1507 people at the moment.) 12:14:43 elliott, but clojure is a lisp dialect by those rules. So anything that is a clojure dialect is thus a lisp dialect 12:14:56 Vorpal: educated stupid 12:15:05 i've seen a channel where there was so much traffic that your messages appeared hours after you sent them. 12:15:13 fizzie, yes #ubuntu and #gentoo were like the largest channels on here last I checked. Not sure if #gentoo is still as large 12:15:13 there were only 4 ppl there though 12:15:46 Vorpal: #ubuntu, #archlinux and #debian were the only ones in my LIST >1000 of a moment ago. 12:15:59 Still all Lunnux distrubtions. 12:16:16 LIST supports queries like that? 12:16:21 fizzie, hm I guess #ubuntu has grown, back when I checked it and #gentoo were about the same size (~950) 12:16:24 oklofok: was it vjn 12:16:32 freenode LIST does. 12:16:39 elliott: part of it 12:16:40 and yes #archlinux is quite large 12:16:41 freenode? More like linuxnode, amirite? 12:16:51 Vorpal: #gentoo is only 852. 12:17:07 what's the second most popular linux distro? 12:17:11 elliott, nowdays yes 12:17:20 elliott, it used to be larger 12:17:23 it was on my irc server, my friend made this rpg and people spammed a few megabytes of commands there. 12:17:38 #pyt "NO LOL" hon has 923 people on it. 12:17:46 huh 12:17:54 no lol! 12:17:59 fizzie, on which network? 12:18:02 wow, the phone spambot that keeps contacting me seems to have hired a bunch of new voice actors 12:18:10 Vorpal: This one. 12:18:11 fizzie, oh #python 12:18:14 not #pyt 12:18:15 unless it's two different spambots that just happen to use the same script 12:18:16 right 12:18:41 Vorpal: Yes, I wanted a "firstname 'nickname' lastname" format, so had to split. 12:18:49 ais523, you get spam over your phone? ouch 12:18:57 oh right, did the wire-crossing problem ever turn out to be meaningful? 12:18:59 Vorpal: only at work 12:19:15 still wow 12:19:16 I was interested in it when I got into esolangs, and invented EL1 and Formula 12:19:21 fizzie: #pyt"NO LOL"hon is the best way to do that. 12:19:31 fizzie: Or #python "NO LOL" #python. 12:19:38 #python 923 NO LOL | NO PROJECT EULER | [...] 12:19:40 wow 12:19:45 why do they hate project euler? 12:19:53 With that many people, you have to rule with an IRON FIST. 12:19:59 because it sucks 12:20:18 lol can some1 help me with project euler #1 12:20:21 heres my code 12:20:25 class Euler: 12:20:26 do it 12:20:28 i'll join too 12:20:29 def __init__ 12:20:29 12:20:30 12:20:30 -!- ais523 has set topic: "NO LOL | NO PROJECT EULER" | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 12:20:31 where 12:20:34 if x=4 : 12:20:35 12:20:36 12:20:38 12:20:58 elliott, wth is up with the blank lines? 12:21:06 lazy 12:21:24 -!- oklofok has changed nick to oklopol. 12:21:33 cpressey: ever consider a timecube esolang? 12:21:57 elliott: what's the question? 12:22:00 i'd love to help 12:22:03 Hello tobegnuf: 12:22:08 http://projecteuler.net/problem=1 12:22:14 ah, fungot's long-lost distant relative 12:22:16 ais523: mrs randzio-plath asks whether the authority will provide this. as an auxiliary language, it can make a formal proposal that, however, the most important, namely how to determine which groups are covered by the text, as you have pointed out, that there is scope to use lower interest rates: long-term interest rates in 1994 because in 1993 the commission adopted the draft directive for the third year in succession, the ve 12:22:29 ais523: fungot isn't the first funge-98 bot? 12:22:30 elliott: mr president, at a time when this house's declarations of goodwill are reflected in salaries and in professional life, and i can assure you that we have to provide more substantial financial and other intermediaries are already well behind schedule: it is not work that could be, and is presenting a new directive to the mining of metal fnord. upon my refusal, the perspectives have not been implemented for twenty years n 12:22:36 00:09:37: JOIN 12:22:37 00:09:38: Hello xij 12:22:40 " John: I can't reproduce the problem, and I don't see where the memory could be leaking" he's trying to REPRODUCE a problem he already solved :o pythonists are crazy! 12:22:45 elliott: it's unclear whether fungebot was -98 or -93 12:22:46 ais523: lmao 12:23:28 if i solve a problem i immediately start running to keep my state of blissful thinking i did it rightness. 12:23:56 Perhaps it's a time-traveling fungot. 12:23:57 fizzie: mr president, i would like to say, i support the amendments that we tabled and opens the way to resolve the armenia embargo and border issue. lastly, the commission is obliged to support the amendments made to mr jarzembowski. 12:23:57 ais523, hm when was that funge bot from? 12:24:13 `pastlog 12:24:21 already gone way past that page 12:24:22 "I've been reading The Haskell Road to Logic, Maths and Programming by Doets and Eijck 2004. It seems to be a well respected book, but I was struck when it claims that Haskell is a member of the Lisp family. Would anyone else agree with that? I would characterise Lisps with s-expressions, impure functions, and lists as the only composite data structure. Haskell has none of that. What do you think?" 12:24:23 12:24:23 1 12:24:23 12:24:24 that doesn't echo to the channel 12:24:24 I disagree, but what was the argument the authors gave? – Tobu Jan 14 '11 at 22:24 12:24:26 2 12:24:28 12:24:32 None! They are giving a general introduction and say 'as a functional language, Haskell is part of the Lisp family along with ML, Occam and Clean'. – Bob Bobson Jan 14 '11 at 22:29 12:24:32 ais523, and did it use netcat or SOCK? And can anyone find the source? 12:24:37 `pastlog 12:24:39 ais523: did you remember to use -i? 12:24:42 2005-07-19.txt:00:14:18: Hello }^nevaR^{ 12:24:44 hmm, it's going to take me a while to check every mention of befunge in the channel ever 12:24:48 2005-07-19.txt:00:14:18: Hello }^nevaR^{ 12:24:49 hm 12:24:51 -!- elliott has changed nick to }^nevaR^{. 12:24:51 elliott: yep 12:24:52 okay 12:25:02 ais523, do you know who made it? 12:25:04 ais523: By a curious coincidence, my logs don't show a "fungebot" at all. It must've been during one of my periodic absences from the channel. 12:25:15 Vorpal: jix 12:25:18 ah 12:25:21 To think, that I missed a fungebot. :/ 12:25:22 }^nevaR^{: you never asked #python for help with your problem 12:25:24 who is here right now 12:25:26 <}^nevaR^{> fizzie: You weren't around much circa 2005, were you? 12:25:26 so you could ask him 12:25:27 <}^nevaR^{> oklopol: sry 12:25:31 <}^nevaR^{> ais523: constantly idle 12:25:48 hmm 12:25:48 -!- cheater has joined. 12:25:51 a nickping sometimes works 12:25:55 and a /msg sometimes works if a nickping doesn't 12:26:07 jix: hi! Do you have any info on that fungebot from 2005? Was it in befunge-93 or funge-98? And do you still have the source? 12:26:19 <}^nevaR^{> @tell jix hi 12:26:19 Consider it noted. 12:26:38 jix tried to do something with thue once and failed. i don't recall what. 12:26:59 00:36:55: Could you write this exact line to this channel? 12:27:00 00:37:46: Could I write what exact line to this channel? 12:27:11 the joys of IRP quines 12:27:21 it was back when that was not trivial 12:27:32 }^nevaR^{: I have missing months of 2003-06, 2003-08, 2005-09, 2006-04, 2007-04, 2007-10, 2008-01 and 2008-02. On all other months (since 2002-12) I've been on-channel at least once during the month. 12:27:47 fizzie: were you in jail? 12:28:01 <}^nevaR^{> ais523: impressively, that is-haskell-a-lisp question is a /duplicate/ 12:28:19 <}^nevaR^{> fizzie: How many days out of the total days the channel has existed have you been present? Percentage-wise. 12:28:28 well, for any arbitrary language you only just heard of, it makes sense to ask if it's a lisp variant 12:28:29 <}^nevaR^{> fizzie: I need to calculate how aggressively to request your logs from you. 12:28:40 fizzie, I thought you used a bouncer? 12:28:42 it's only a stupid question if you already know the answer 12:28:50 <}^nevaR^{> ais523: the other one was going based on a /haskell book/ claiming it was a lisp dialect 12:28:52 oklopol: In 2003-06 I probably was "working" (civil service) in Vankeinhoidon koulutuskeskus, if that counts. 12:28:56 -fizzie- VERSION bip-0.8.2 12:28:57 -fizzie- VERSION xchat 2.8.8 Linux 2.6.35-31-generic [x86_64/2.00GHz/SMP] 12:28:57 -fizzie- VERSION irssi v0.8.15 12:28:57 hm 12:28:59 probably yes 12:29:10 oh that counts. 12:29:16 that counts to fucking million. 12:29:24 Vorpal: Nowadays; but only since 2009-03; before that, irssi. 12:29:29 ah 12:29:35 fizzie, bip is a bouncer is it? 12:29:43 oklopol: could you translate for the non-finns in the audience? 12:29:52 Vorpal: Yes. (Not that I had a disconnection habit with the irssi connection either.) 12:29:58 education center for taking care of prisoners. 12:30:00 heh 12:30:02 is a stupid translation 12:30:20 i don't quite understand what it means so that's the best i can do. 12:30:22 It's been renamed to Rikosseuraamusalan koulutuskeskus now, anyway. 12:30:33 fizzie, what is it for? 12:30:35 not sure how you educate taking care of prisoners 12:30:35 "The Training Institute for Prison and Probation Services" is the official translation. 12:30:36 fizzie: so were you sent there as a punishment? 12:30:42 yes 12:30:45 punishment for p 12:30:47 askdjf 12:30:49 <}^nevaR^{> ais523: punishment for being finnish 12:30:52 -!- Patashu has quit (Quit: MSN: Patashu@hotmail.com , Gmail: Patashu0@gmail.com , AIM: Patashu0 , YIM: patashu2 , Skype: patashu0 .). 12:30:58 ais523: Civil service; it's an alternative for the regular compulsory military service. 12:31:07 fizzie, you still have conscription? 12:31:08 punishment for being a latent rapist 12:31:09 hm 12:31:10 fizzie: ah, I see 12:31:12 that is, male 12:31:29 oklopol: I don't know, females are convicted of rape sometimes 12:31:31 although much more rarely 12:31:39 yeah can you imagine :D 12:31:40 I mostly just fiddled with PageMaker; they publish books (sometimes by prisoners, but also textbooks on their field, and a yearly "newsletter" thing). 12:31:41 (typically the sort that involves drugs rather than physical violence) 12:32:05 oh right, INTERCAL's EOF handling is hilarious 12:32:08 "you CHEATED on me?" "no i was raped!" 12:32:11 ais523, oh? 12:32:14 is what that means. 12:32:15 (it crashes on EOF, with no way to catch the error or seeing it's coming) 12:32:38 ais523, so what do people normally do to avoid this? 12:32:38 Vorpal: We do, yes, unless you invent a proper excuse. 12:32:56 fizzie, like medical reasons? 12:33:02 Vorpal: they don't 12:33:08 heh 12:33:09 nothing you /can/ do about it 12:33:15 -!- }^nevaR^{ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 12:33:24 ais523, is this for c-intercal or clc-intercal? 12:33:29 you can do a lot of things. unless you're a perfectly healthy male. 12:33:33 fml 12:33:35 although it'd be fun to implement some way to catch the error 12:33:40 Vorpal: -72 12:33:43 ah 12:33:54 Vorpal: Medical, psychological, religious, or moral. (But the latter one will get you thrown in jail as a "conscientious objector" if you also refuse the non-military alternative.) 12:33:55 ais523, I assume neither ick nor clc crashes? 12:34:11 sure they do, it'd be incompatible otherwise 12:34:20 you can't not implement the spec 12:34:32 fizzie, pretty easy to join a suitable religion like a year before or such 12:34:47 and then leave it a bit later 12:35:02 Vorpal: I'm not sure if there are any recognized religions that'd forbid the civil service part. 12:35:08 hm 12:35:13 jediism? 12:35:16 I mean, it's a weird thing to forbid. 12:35:27 ais523, hm, is that starwars related? 12:35:39 non-military civil service isn't something I'd object to anyway, though, although I would object to the military version 12:35:45 Vorpal: yes, originally 12:35:52 it's a reference to the jedi census phenomenon 12:35:52 jehova's witnesses are exempt from all afaiu? 12:35:57 oh 12:35:59 right 12:36:04 where there was a worldwide movement to claim to be a jedi on censuses 12:36:12 heh 12:36:12 with the result that many countries ended up recognising it as a religion 12:36:18 ais523, really? :D 12:36:37 (there's at least one court case where someone successfully claimed that their jedi religion forbade them from doing something that would otherwise be mandatory, too) 12:36:41 Vorpal: that was the whole /point/ 12:36:54 ais523, I'm just a bit scared that it worked 12:37:15 oklopol: I think they are, yes. Also people living in Ă…land. 12:37:40 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedi_census_phenomenon 12:38:03 ah, apparently no /official/ recognition; jediism was assigned a convenience number on the census processing thing because it was so popular 12:38:10 but that was apparently only to make statistics easier or something 12:38:50 ais523, do UK still do censuses? Sweden doesn't any more 12:38:52 In Scotland 14,052 people stated that Jedi was their current religion (14,014 "Jedi", 24 "Jedi Order" and 14 "Sith") 12:38:56 Vorpal: yes, but rarely 12:39:00 it's something like once every ten years 12:39:04 maybe once every five 12:39:05 hm 12:39:10 that is quite often 12:39:32 There are 70-80 people who refuse both the military and the civil service; Amnesty classifies them as "prisoners of conscience", which bumps up Finland's "score" on that considerably. Otherwise we'd totally lose to all kinds of regimes. 12:39:39 70-80 people per year, that is. 12:39:52 i've only encountered censuses in complexity theory 12:40:00 In 2009, a Jedi was banned from a Tesco Supermarket in Bangor, North Wales, for refusing to remove his hood on a religious basis. The following year, a Jedi was thrown out of a Jobcentre in Southend, Essex, for refusing to remove his hood; he later received an apology. 12:40:17 heh 12:40:27 fizzie: I wonder why they do that 12:40:39 seems a weird thing to make that heavy a stand about 12:40:46 err 12:40:58 ais523: For many it's an official protest against the length of the civil service; it's about double the most common length for the military one. 12:40:58 not wanting to waste a year of your life is stupid now? 12:41:09 ais523: "Conscientious objectors to military service continued to be imprisoned for refusing the alternative civilian service due to its punitive and discriminatory length. The length of alternative civilian service remained at 362 days, more than double the most common military service period of 180 days." 12:41:19 oklopol: aren't you still wasting it, just in jail? 12:41:25 The jail term is shorter. 12:41:30 ais523: less of it, and there's more freedom 12:41:32 ah, I see 12:41:38 Two days of civil service translate to one day of jail. 12:42:08 And with a very few exceptions they are in these "open prisons". 12:42:12 So you can study and whatever. 12:42:33 ais523, I would answer sith on such a question btw. 12:42:48 and more importantly, you don't have to do meaningless work 12:42:49 Vorpal: really? 12:42:53 like taking care of old people 12:42:57 ais523, sure, why not? 12:43:09 or learning to kill healthy people 12:43:25 fizzie: clearly the appropriate punishment should be community service, not a prison term 12:43:26 ais523, it is not like religion should be listed on a census form anyway 12:43:36 well the latter is not useless if you want to become a serial killer 12:43:50 oklopol: I know quite a few people who've just done research at the university where they were studying "around" the civil service term. 12:43:55 why would they teach that? 12:44:13 what do you mean "around"? 12:44:18 oklopol: Before, and after. 12:44:19 ais523: in the army? 12:44:23 do you know what armies are for? 12:44:23 oh, I see 12:44:31 forgot about the army option 12:44:38 my mind excluded it as an option that nobody sane would take 12:44:47 oh. no not in the civil service 12:44:58 ais523: Some do civil service for six months which would match the military service, and then refuse; their remaining six months are then translated to a three-month prison term. 12:45:16 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: The Other Game). 12:45:26 fizzie: it's almost as if people are being tempted to break the law, if there's an exchange rate for it 12:45:35 what about alternating days of civil service and prison? 12:45:46 i've always wanted to try prison out anyway but i don't actually want to commit a crime. 12:45:49 You can't go back from the prison to civil service. 12:45:52 "If Jedi were counted it would have been the second largest religion in New Zealand. T" 12:45:55 s/T// 12:46:23 There's a one-month common "training period" for the civil service, but I don't think it was much about killing. I mostly learned that some people do crazy things (aluminium foil wrapped beer-potatoes?) on a campfire. 12:46:32 It might be slightly different during the wintertime. 12:46:44 Oh, I think there was also some CPR training maybe? 12:46:58 I got a free tea+pastry coupon for maintaining Darkhive. 12:47:07 Managed to describe it as a cultural act. 12:47:27 fizzie, darkhive being? 12:48:43 2006-04-28 22:18:55: a funge would suit an irc bot well, i suspect 12:49:30 Vorpal: I don't have anything about fungebot anymore (and I don't remember working with it) 12:49:31 jix: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 12:49:32 Vorpal: Uh. There was this Finnish magazine called Demi, core audience teenage girls (13-19 years); they had (well, have) a web forum, which didn't have a search system and expired old threads; Darkhive crawled the site periodically and archived the messages. 12:49:38 jix, oh 12:49:46 jix, ais523 claimed you were the author 12:50:06 jix: well, it was only up there for a day, I assume you've just forgotten about it 12:50:15 fizzie, heh 12:50:18 or, hmm, maybe it was someone else 12:50:29 `pastlog fungebot 12:50:36 2005-07-19.txt:00:14:18: Hello }^nevaR^{ 12:50:45 `pastelog fungebot 12:50:53 -!- elliott has joined. 12:50:55 http://www.cs.uit.no/~daniels/PingTunnel/ 12:50:56 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.5540 12:50:59 wasn't that the command? 12:51:06 Ptunnel is an application that allows you to reliably tunnel TCP connections to a remote host using ICMP echo request and reply packets, commonly known as ping requests and replies. 12:51:07 I was never fluent in befunge... but I think I did some experiments with other esolangs and irc that never got anywhere 12:51:11 00:06:08: i wrote a crappy ping less sub-minmal befunge irc bot that prints hello msgs with the nick reversed... 12:51:21 unless it's a different jix, it was you 12:51:29 Vorpal: It gained some amounts of popularity among the users, possibly because it also did not remove messages the official board admins deleted for "unsuitable content". 12:51:43 ais523: oh then I probably did... 12:51:46 fizzie, heh 12:52:06 but I never did anything that would remotely qualify as a complete irc bot 12:52:06 fizzie: Now you gotta tell us why on earth you decided to write that. 12:52:16 elliott: Also http://thomer.com/icmptx/ 12:52:16 elliott: kerio is a fan of tunnelling all sorts of things over DNS 12:52:21 jix: don't worry, fungebot wouldn't 12:53:03 (ICMPTX and NSTX are I think related.) 12:53:17 fizzie: That guy has written a lot of freeloader internet-tunneling tools. :p 12:53:31 elliott: His mission in life is to mooch for free stuffs, I suppose. 12:53:33 Oh, he didn't write that one. 12:53:58 Ah, it's stolen. Well, in any case. 12:54:04 fizzie: You can't dodge my question!!! 12:54:30 the depressing thing is, there's almost certainly a way to tunnel HTTP over HTTP already 12:54:44 elliott: It's just that I don't quite recall the motivations. I'm supposing some IRC people were somehow involved. 12:55:03 you know what we need? another esolang competition 12:55:08 with a reasonable number of people actually participating 12:55:40 ais523, that last point might be hard 12:55:55 ais523, btw when are the results of IOCCC going to be announced? 12:55:55 Vorpal: I got a cease-and-desist from the magazine editor finally; didn't think it was worth a fight so I took the site down. Some random guy at WaveU asked me for the database dump, though, and ran it for a while longer. 12:55:58 6 or so would be reasonable enough 12:56:13 fizzie, heh 12:56:15 fizzie: I will accept a blatant but interesting lie, e.g. "Finnish demosceners used to use it to chat ironically". 12:57:11 but not exactly that one, as it wouldn't be interesting now it's been mentioned 12:57:44 ais523: no, it would 12:57:45 fizzie, if it was on irc you could search your logs? 12:57:52 ais523: how implausible is it that I would guess the precise truth? 12:57:58 even if it isn't actually true 12:59:05 elliott: it'd be obviously a lie, though 12:59:12 as well as just being blatant 12:59:16 Vorpal: I guess I could look for the first mention, but I'm not even sure where in IRC it would be. 13:00:29 elliott: I think "Finnish used to use it to chat ironically" is quite close to the truth, actually. 13:01:20 fizzie, grep -R? 13:01:31 fizzie: See, I can pretend to believe you now! 13:02:15 elliott: Heh; from !assembly, paraphrasing: "[2005-08-05 19:20:37] The demi.fi folks are quite the sceners: darkhive=# select sum(msgs) from dh_thre where tname ilike '%assembly%'; => 473" 13:02:26 (I asked for first mention separately per-channel.) 13:02:32 :D 13:02:51 Anyway, 473 messages containing the substring "assembly". 13:04:28 I think these logs are too new. 13:05:14 Hey, someone donated me money because of it. 13:05:19 I... 13:06:35 elliott: Oh, oh oh! I might have just continued from "demikhat". 13:06:38 elliott: *… 13:06:49 elliott: See, uh... this is also a bit complicated to explain. 13:06:50 ais523: no 13:06:56 fizzie: Go on. 13:08:12 elliott: They had this flash-based "isometric 3D" chat thing there (before the web forum times); think "Habbo Hotel" or such, except much more limited. I was bored one day, so I packet-sniffed that, reverse-engineered the protocol (it was a custom ASCII-based one) and wrote a "roguelike" client which let you chat there and IIRC do a couple of things the official interface couldn't. 13:08:46 fizzie: You're a strange person. 13:09:17 They also had another real-time "text chat" which was actually run over the IRC server of the web-media company that made the pages; I also hung out there with an IRC client and sort-of got to know some of the folks behind the scenes. 13:09:29 I'm not quite sure of the chronology of all these different forums and chats and such. 13:09:44 How did you even come to look at anything related to this magazine? 13:10:04 They had another web-forum that Darkhive didn't crawl. (Though I made a 'wget' dump of it scant few days before they wiped it out and started the new forum which Darkhive did index.) 13:10:16 Actually come to think of it, that dump might have been the inspiration for Darkhive itself. 13:10:24 So you can blame whoever asked me to do it. 13:11:11 Wow, I had so forgotten about this. 13:11:56 Apparently at the civil service training we used the instructor's laptop/projector to watch how Darkhive updated itself, and read some threads using the psql command-line tool. 13:12:07 And after that I got the free-tea voucher. 13:12:46 fizzie: I don't understand Finland. 13:12:57 It's not as strange as e.g. Japan. 13:13:01 Or so I have been led to believe. 13:14:15 Sadly, I never finished my other "chat archive" project. 13:14:27 (That would've been called "sharkhive".) 13:14:27 Charchive. 13:14:29 :D 13:14:44 It wasn't related to the Demi chats, incidentally. 13:14:58 Oh, what was it going to archive, then? 13:15:40 ais523: you might enjoy this: http://www.bbctvlicence.com/Please%20do%20not%20write%20below%20the%20line.htm 13:15:43 See, there's this midday/midnight SMS-based TV channel chats, they're really horrible. There's some horrible person as a presenter, and then people send all kinds of stupid things in. Really stupid things. And each message costs like real money, but they still keep doing it. 13:15:48 it reminds me of those train routeing letters 13:15:58 I was thinking, I had this analog TV receiver card, I could've OCR'd and archived those. 13:16:00 fizzie: Ohh, yes, I know what you mean. 13:16:50 fizzie: Well, sort of. 13:17:35 elliott: obvious conclusion is that it's to present people writing below the line before the letters are sent 13:17:42 I think it would've mostly worked. At least for the digital TV stream, that's significantly less noisy (if a bit compression-artifacty). It's got a particular font and everything. 13:18:33 fizzie: You should archive... 13:18:48 fizzie: Uh, do/did (when you had analogue television) you people have a teletext-style thing? 13:19:39 Yes. 13:19:45 I think the system still exists. 13:20:07 http://www.yle.fi/tekstitv/html/P100_01.html 13:20:08 fizzie: Those tend to have vaguely "user-generated" pages. 13:20:12 You can read it in the interwebs. 13:20:21 fizzie: Actually you should just archive the whole thing, that would be simplest. 13:20:28 Oh, I've seen this. 13:20:34 It's even hyperlinked! 13:20:35 I think it was discussed. 13:20:57 Okay, but pretend that doesn't exist and do it with a receiver card instead. :p 13:21:25 Only the top half of double-height numbers are hyperlinked, unless I'm mispointing. 13:21:38 hmm, the "music industry" (not sure what group in particular, and I'm annoyed at the vagueness of the story) are apparently suing Ireland for not making file sharing sufficiently illegal 13:22:29 fizzie: WFM 13:22:35 fizzie: It even hyperlinks URLs, e.g. http://www.yle.fi/tekstitv/html/P101_01.html. 13:22:58 speaking of storing chats, I wonder if anyone is recording /b/ and such, iirc 4chan expires old messages? 13:23:11 I hope no one is archiving /b/... 13:23:21 Would take a lot of space, probably 13:23:33 I've seen archives of individual threads 13:23:33 elliott: So it seems; but on the front page, 100, the big numbers (the four headlines, like "107 Urpilainen: ...") seem to have only their top halves clickable. 13:24:28 fizzie: Oh, right. 13:24:33 fizzie: I suspect the linking may be automated somehow. 13:24:41 Vorpal: http://4chanarchive.org/ 13:24:48 Is at least a thing. 13:24:52 (NSFW ads, seemingly.) 13:25:02 elliott: it almost certainly also has NSFW content 13:25:16 ais523: That too, presumably. 13:25:28 I guess you could find a SFW subset of 4chan, but it'd be mostly missing the point 13:26:16 Oh, "update May, 7th: we take no more new archival requests. please visit chanarchive.org instead.". 13:26:18 http://chanarchive.org/welcome It's all Web 2.0. 13:26:22 There's even a Twitter. 13:27:14 ais523: The local "Copyright Information & Anti-Piracy Centre" sued one of our ISPs (and cases for two others are pending), and the lowest court agreed and told the ISP to "block PirateBay", or suffer a nice hundred thousand euro fine; recently the "enforcement unit" of the court came up with a long list of DNS names and three IP addresses for the ISP to block. They've complained to the higher court, but just few days ago "temporarily" enabled the block 13:27:14 s while that case is pending. 13:27:24 ais523: There's quite a debate going on about this. 13:27:40 fizzie: yes; I was mostly interested because they'd sued a country rather than an ISP 13:27:41 ais523: Including a bomb threat to the office of the "Anti-Piracy Centre" and so on. 13:28:24 fizzie: Is that what Finns call a debate? 13:28:56 elliott: The bomb threat was by "Anonymous Finland". :p 13:29:11 there are almost certainly multiple Anonymouses 13:29:25 with a name like that, and their alleged structure, more than one could exist quite easily without anyone noticing 13:29:30 including the organizations themselves 13:29:40 ais523: Well *this* one owns a Twitter account "anon_finland", it's certainly very legit. 13:30:00 fizzie: I'm sure it was a very credible threat. 13:30:53 "thepiratebay.org, www.thepiratebay.org, depiraatbaai.be, www.depiraatbaai.be, piratebay.am, www.piratebay.am, piratebay.net, www.piratebay.net, www.piratebay.no, piratebay.no, piratebay.se, www.piratebay.se, suprnova.com, www.suprnova.com, themusicbay.com, www.themusicbay.com, themusicbay.net, www.themusicbay.net, themusicbay.org, www.themusicbay.org, thepiratebay.am,www.thepiratebay.am, www.thepiratebay.com, thepiratebay.com, thepiratebay.gl, www.thep 13:30:53 iratebay.gl, thepiratebay.net, www.thepiratebay.net, www.thepiratebay.se, thepiratebay.se, thepiratebay.org.nyud.net" 13:30:58 fizzie: "The LulzSleigh's taking off! Expect us. And don't miss us: someday, We'll come back (:" RIP anon_finland ages ago -- 2 hours ago 13:30:59 That's the list of DNS names they want removed. 13:31:01 thepiratebay.org.nyud.net <-- LOL 13:31:17 The best part is, I doubt you can even /search/ with that one. 13:31:30 what's nyud.net? 13:31:32 And also "194.71.107.15, 194.71.107.19, 194.71.107.18" for any traffic, which I guess does slightly more. 13:31:34 ais523: coralcdn 13:31:37 I've heard of it but can't remember why 13:31:44 ais523: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coral_Content_Distribution_Network 13:31:48 The Coral Content Distribution Network, sometimes called Coral Cache or Coral, is a free peer-to-peer content distribution network designed and operated by Michael Freedman. Coral uses the bandwidth of a world-wide network of web proxies and nameservers to mirror web content, often to avoid the Slashdot Effect or to reduce the general load on websites servers in general. 13:31:52 ah, right 13:33:18 Heh, "piraattilahti.fi" (the literal translation of "piratebay") goes to EFFI's (the "Finnish EFF") webpage. 13:33:39 lol 13:34:53 Heh, it was actually originally on that list. 13:35:13 There's an update from yesterday that they have removed the "piraattilahti.fi" block. 13:35:28 Presumably whoever owns the domain will again point it at Pirate Bay, and they'll add it back, and GOTO 10. 13:35:34 fizzie: http://www.effi.org/ -- try google-translating it from finnish to english and read the first sentence. 13:35:39 (Right click -> translate in Chrome.) 13:36:14 "What." 13:36:55 fizzie: So how's the weather in Helsinki, Ireland today? 13:37:18 :D 13:37:22 I mean, the original text just says "Electronic Frontier Finland ry ...", and 'ry' is basically "registered association". 13:37:41 If you just type "Electronic Frontier Finland" and ask for a Finnish -> English translation, it goes "The Electronic Frontier Ireland". 13:37:49 fizzie: Statistical translation, presumably. 13:37:53 Apparently fi:Finland equals en:Ireland, then. 13:38:04 fizzie: Things like country names tend to get mixed up. 13:38:05 Admittedly "Finland" isn't Finnish. 13:38:23 fizzie, it s Soumi isn't it? 13:38:24 I think it's because e.g. a Finnish document talking about Finland might match up with an English document talking about the UK. 13:38:28 or something like that 13:38:28 I don't really know how it works. 13:38:29 Vorpal: Suomi. 13:38:31 ah 13:38:31 But that's what I've heard. 13:38:46 fizzie probably knows more, since speech recognition is, like, vaguely related, and about twice as unreliable. :p 13:38:55 elliott, also inches vs. centimeters 13:39:01 that gets messed up badly too 13:39:03 There was some other Google Translate "lul" related to gay Swedes, but I don't recall how it went. 13:39:04 "Irlanti" is pretty close to "Finland", I guess. 13:39:07 Vorpal: Right. 13:39:43 elliott, also I have seen it insert extra negations that completely changed the meaning of the sentence. :D 13:40:06 `words --finnish --swedish 25 13:40:08 fizzie "cunningly dodged" my speech recognition remark. 13:40:13 ​åldolskeimmart säcklaansar psymmästa tiuminärpäsidornotkelvä dopatsansa ontusensatsenning rat anarre vid vesidorketsovĂĄnga hittu utadierna lähiöllämtnin kava mystele roillnadalm baskanaruttavlar uusioniser sydasmerkiltäng uppromerkkl uhoidkarist kn ahdottaga käläisig nyrper 13:40:25 kallisti, none of them looks Swedish at all 13:40:30 Vorpal: vid? 13:40:32 Also I don't know about Google Translate so much; but I suppose they do some "proactive" training-text acquisition, since there aren't so many actual good-quality parallel Finnish/English corpora; Europarl, of course, but still. 13:40:41 Deewiant, oh right, missed that word 13:40:45 apart from that though 13:41:25 Aren't many Finnish-looking words either. "hittu" could be. 13:41:32 fizzie: Europarl is good for translating "Mr. President". 13:41:57 `words --finnish 15 13:42:00 matushovina jalailevakin tontumissasi uneeksesi syventävikseen aampiansa tyhjenemassamme erivaan alustamaksena ajamuissasi aihtyvilta liukkaama hälyttömimmaksee näppäivyttävista kapisimpia 13:42:07 fizzie, I think psymmästa looks finnish 13:42:10 to me at least 13:42:14 Vorpal: Fails vowel harmony 13:42:18 hm okay 13:42:26 Deewiant, what does vowel harmony entail? 13:42:29 The all-purpose refusal. 13:42:40 Vorpal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vowel_harmony#Finnish 13:43:03 You could've just said "no [uoa] or [yöä] in the same word". 13:43:10 It's shorter than the link. :p 13:43:15 Do you have to pass, like, a gruelling five-hour test of vowel harmony to gain Finnish citizenship? 13:43:19 But that requires typing, not copy-pasting. 13:43:38 Anyway, I was /going/ to give a longer explanation including stuff about foreign imports and compound words but SCREW IT THEN. 13:43:54 "Päuikkä" "Yes!" "Paaäaia" "No!" "Kapisimpia" "Yes!" "Syventävikseean" "Yes! -- NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO" 13:44:11 Deewiant, yeah a bit tricky for compound words and imported words I imagine 13:44:19 "Päuikkä" is not a "Yes!". 13:44:54 fizzie: What, how does that break vowel harmony, I spent like 3 seconds trying to understand vowel harmony so I don't see how I could possibly be wrong. 13:45:01 elliott: "ä" and "u" 13:45:15 Yeah, my short explanation should've probably said "and" instead of "or". :p 13:45:27 :( 13:45:40 fizzie: I was going solely based on "no a and ä" that yous aid once. :p 13:45:54 Anyway, EVEN THE EXAMINER MAKES MISTAKES SOMETIMES. 13:46:08 fizzie, what about ĂĄ? 13:46:27 /kickban Vorpal trolling 13:46:40 elliott, what? 13:46:40 In practice the rule is usually equivalent to "if a native speaker can't pronounce it easily, it fails vowel harmony" 13:46:55 Vorpal: ĂĄ is just o. 13:46:59 ah 13:47:07 Deewiant, so you say "oland" for "ĂĄland"? 13:47:08 Oh, "ĂĄ" actually occurs in Finnish? 13:47:08 And not present in any words. 13:47:12 Right. 13:47:28 what's the point of a letter that isn't in any words? 13:47:28 elliott, they have it in Ă…land afaik, unless they use a different name for that 13:47:35 to confuse the alphabet? 13:47:35 Vorpal: "Ahvenanmaa". 13:47:35 Vorpal: "ooland" and "ĂĄland" would be pronounced the same. 13:47:45 ais523, ĂĄ is used in Swedish so I guess that is why? 13:48:02 ais523: It's something that stayed from Swedish, and is only used in Swedish names. 13:49:13 Vorpal: Anyway we say Ă…land much like you say Ă…land; it's just that your 'ĂĄ' is like IPA /o:/ pretty much, and therefore much like our 'o'. 13:49:30 fizzie, what about our o? Do you have that 13:49:38 'u'. 13:49:42 and our u? 13:50:30 I think that's IPA ʉ which we don't quite have? But that's just going by my knowledge of Swedish pronunciation, which is rather vague. 13:50:43 Don't you have some context-sensitivity going on there? 13:50:51 hm maybe? 13:50:58 Finnish mostly has a context-free mapping from lexemes to phonemes. 13:51:12 well there is a lot of stuff that depends on context in Swedish 13:51:23 like double consonant after a vowel modifies it and so on 13:51:39 (and that is the only place where you can put two of the same consonant pretty much) 13:52:03 Swedish o is also context-sensitive. 13:52:26 Deewiant, I believe /ever/ vowel can be modified by at least single/double consonant after it 13:52:29 possibly more stuff 13:52:34 Quite possibly. 13:52:38 Yes, I suppose 'bot' and 'bott' have quite a different 'o' in them? 13:52:41 every* 13:52:45 fizzie, indeed 13:52:46 Swedish is a quite vowel-tricky language. 13:53:40 also we have various other things going on. Like the sj-sound 13:53:44 Swedish-speaking Finns for the most part probably just approximate it. 13:53:54 also stj and various other variants 13:56:23 boten annan? 13:56:36 Sgeo, uh "the cure another"? 13:56:37 Oh, it's Boten Anna 13:56:49 still "The cure Anna" (where Anna is a name) 13:57:00 (but that is not what it refers to) 13:57:13 I saw bott, and thought of the song Boten Anna 13:57:26 Much like I couldn't really do all the seven Russian fricatives that are all more or less "s" (or "z") in Finnish. (Ń, Ń, щ, Đ·, ж, ч, ц -- esp. Ń/щ., IIRC.) 13:57:41 And in whatever language "Boten Anna" is, it's supposed to mean Anna the Bot, I think 13:57:55 So I think it's a different language from whatever you're talking about 13:58:00 "NO NO IT'S ABOUT A BOAT LOL" 13:58:06 Sgeo: Thank you for your insightful commentary. 13:58:13 Sgeo, I don't think bott exists as a Swedish word. Possibly as a loan word. The way it is written it would be pronounced like the English "bot" though 13:58:14 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zf2wbRWb9xI 13:58:22 with a single t it would be different 13:58:27 What language is this? 13:58:34 fizzie, that would be bĂĄten 13:58:34 :P 13:58:46 Deewiant: My, that's a little EDGY for you. 13:58:56 Sgeo, can't check, no sound where I am. 13:58:57 Vorpal: "bott" doesn't exist? bo, bor, bodde, bott. 13:59:09 fizzie, oh right, true 13:59:15 What language is this? 13:59:16 finnish 13:59:26 Sgeo, it is probably Swedish anyway 13:59:28 hth yw 13:59:33 [] 13:59:34 (18470.58 secs, 14756796564032 bytes) 13:59:36 (if it is what I'm thinking of) 13:59:36 Conjecture proved. 13:59:44 Deewiant, what conjecture? 13:59:50 Vorpal: Conjecture. 13:59:58 Deewiant actually just typed [], he just has a really slow computer. 14:00:05 Yep. 14:00:12 :P 14:00:21 And also his GHC has a really bad memory leak. 14:00:30 quite 14:00:38 elliott, uh 14:00:40 `frink 14756796564032 bytes -> gb 14:00:41 13.5 terabytes for the empty list is quite impressive. 14:00:43 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boten_Anna#Swedish_lyrics 14:00:45 wasn't that the command? 14:00:46 hm 14:00:49 Vorpal: Yes. 14:00:51 It's slow. 14:00:52 Unknown symbol "gb" \ Warning: undefined symbol "gb". \ Unconvertable expression: \ 118054372512256 bit (information) -> gb (undefined symbol) 14:00:56 ffs 14:00:56 Also, "gb" is unlikely to work. 14:01:01 `frink 14756796564032 bytes -> gigabytes 14:01:01 `frink 14756796564032 bytes -> gibibyte 14:01:05 Vorpal: gibi 14:01:12 elliott, I want base 1000 :P 14:01:13 230574946313/15625000 (exactly 14756.796564032) 14:01:13 bogo 14:01:17 (okay not really) 14:01:28 Anyawy, like I said, 13.5 tebibytes. 14:01:37 elliott, you said it after I typed that line 14:01:39 (Actually you said tera) 14:01:42 *Anyway 14:01:43 Deewiant: Indeed! 14:01:44 But I LIED. 14:01:50 Shameful. 14:02:04 230574946313/16777216 (approx. 13743.33776909113) 14:02:22 Vorpal: Anyway, there was a recording from when someone called to a radio show host about the song, and explained the whole "IRC bot" thing, but the host just couldn't understand the concept and was all "no, no, you're mistaken, he's singing about a boat". 14:02:23 Gotta love that useful rational representation. 14:02:36 fizzie, heh 14:02:47 fizzie: I'm not sure what would compel someone to attempt to explain that to a radio show host. 14:02:47 elliott, XD 14:03:03 Anyway, the line was filter (uncurry (<)) [(fromIntegral (abs d :: Int32) :: Word32, fromIntegral (gcd (2^32 :: Int64) (fromIntegral d :: Int64)) :: Word32) | d <- [minBound..maxBound :: Int32], d /= 0] 14:03:07 elliott: The radio show host had kept on babbling about the boat earlier, I suppose it got on someone's nerves. 14:03:27 fizzie: Isn't there a boat in the video? Very confusing. 14:03:39 Deewiant: What. 14:03:53 speaking of Swedish pronunciation, there is also quite a lot of dialectal variation still. 14:03:58 For another conjecture, (5383.32 secs, 2327345782000 bytes) vs (5561.58 secs, 2706088878288 bytes) shows that using toInteger and Integers is faster than fromIntegral and Ints. 14:04:06 Deewiant: Also, (abs d :: Int32) === (abs d) there. 14:04:09 :t gcd 14:04:10 forall a. (Integral a) => a -> a -> a 14:04:17 And (2^32 :: Int64) === (2^32). 14:04:20 Vorpal: Also since it's talking about the "kanal" and, you know, a canal of water and all. 14:04:24 elliott: I added some extras to make sure everything was correct. 14:04:34 Deewiant: TYPES DON'T WORK LIKE THAT 14:04:46 elliott: Yes they do, it'd give me an error if they weren't what I thought they were. 14:05:02 Deewiant: Anyway, you could, like, totally golf that. 14:05:12 Yes, and optimize it. But that wasn't the point. 14:05:19 The point was to make sure that it returns the empty list. 14:05:21 fizzie, indeed 14:05:26 I have no idea how the "Jag är ingen [bĂĄt], jag är en väldigt, väldigt vacker tjej" part makes sense for the "boat interpretation", as it is known in scholarly circles. 14:05:37 http://stackoverflow.com/a/8836331/1097181 ;; ooh, there's a *psychic* on SO. 14:05:44 Perhaps some sort of a possessed boat? 14:05:46 Deewiant: Are we going to get context? 14:05:55 fizzie, just looked up the lyrics and they make no sense wrt a boat 14:05:56 fizzie, what's the translation of that? 14:05:56 fizzie: Translation? 14:06:11 Sgeo: "I'm not a bot, I'm a really, really beautiful girl." 14:06:17 X-D 14:06:21 Well, you know boats these days. 14:06:38 fizzie, the stuff about banning too 14:06:42 -!- elliott has set topic: I'm not a boat, I'm a really, really beautiful girl | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 14:06:53 I'm you. 14:06:57 "för i mina ögon är hon alltid en [bĂĄt]". 14:07:05 Vorpal: Boats have kicked people out before! 14:07:05 "In my eyes she's always a bot/boat." 14:07:09 i guess what i was arguing earlier was that mathematics has some closed-circle views about reality. And going further to say that perhaps everyone has some closed-circle views about reality. These statements of mine themselves represent a closed circle argument. 14:07:19 fizzie: Very progressive. 14:07:26 means.. tidus acquired the word closed-circle argument in his inventory 14:07:54 Oh, "itidus" derives from "tidus"? I suppose that should have been obvious. 14:07:59 elliott, it said ban, not kick 14:08:09 Vorpal: Yes, well, boats that kick don't let people back in. 14:08:10 elliott: hahahah......... 14:08:21 yup 14:08:25 Vorpal: I... guess it could be some sort of a warship that's patrolling the canal so that you can't travel there? 14:08:27 elliott: Context: having checked that gcd (2^32) (fromIntegral d) * x doesn't overflow, what can we say about whether fromIntegral (abs d) * x overflows? (If I'm looking at this correctly.) As it turns out, I can't think of anything, although if that had been true in some cases, maybe there would've been something. 14:08:38 i dont necesarily still hold that view, but a few hours ago i was arguing it 14:08:47 If you die on a boat, you die in real life! 14:08:51 And the other one was filter (\(a,b) -> abs (toInteger a) /= toInteger b) [(x,y) | (x :: Int32) <- [minBound..maxBound], let y = fromIntegral (abs x) :: Word32]. 14:08:57 Which seems pretty self-explanatory. 14:09:07 Deewiant: Doesn't QuickCheck let you run tests over functions? 14:09:10 elliott, hm not true. I actually turned a small dinghy upside down in the water (as part of training how to do that, I used to sail many years ago) 14:09:11 You could try and find a predicate. 14:09:22 elliott: For what? 14:09:51 Deewiant: Well, um, good point. 14:09:57 Deewiant, was this on one core or multiple cores? 14:09:58 Something relating the two. Somehow. :p 14:10:04 Vorpal: Does it matter? 14:10:06 filter isn't parallel. 14:10:11 Vorpal: That's not using parFilter or anything so those are single-core. 14:10:12 (It's not like it could be parallel over linked lists.) 14:10:21 (Well, usefully parallel.) 14:10:27 elliott, well he should have used parFilter then 14:10:37 I don't think parFilter exists. 14:10:41 Deewiant, oh okay 14:10:49 right 14:10:54 And it wouldn't've been enough on its own, anyway. 14:11:01 fair enough 14:11:02 And I didn't exactly care about the runtime, either. 14:11:09 Deewiant: You can easily construct it with Control.Parallel.Strategies. 14:11:20 elliott: filter `using` parList or whatever? 14:11:33 I forget how that module works. 14:11:36 (\p xs -> filter p xs `using` parList), but I rather suspect you'd want to use one of the fancier chunking combinators. 14:11:42 I mean, sparks are cheap, but not /that/ cheap. 14:11:49 Erm. 14:11:51 Right. 14:11:54 (\p xs -> filter p xs `using` parList strat) 14:12:01 For some strat, probably rseq. 14:12:32 Alternatively I could've just trusted my belief that what's true for 8-bit is also true for 32-bit. 14:13:03 Deewiant: UNTRUE COUNTEREXAMPLE "THEY CAN HOLD ONLY THINGS OF 8 BITS" QED MOFO 14:13:12 QED QED QED 14:13:29 QED QED QED 14:13:33 MOT 14:13:39 NETMOT. 14:13:42 CQFD 14:13:44 WZBW 14:13:49 чтд 14:13:55 Deewiant, but is it true for 64-bit? 14:14:00 ASDF 14:14:01 Vorpal: It better be. 14:14:03 -!- boily has joined. 14:14:08 hehe 14:14:11 Deewiant: You mean you're not going to... check? 14:14:16 No, I'm not. 14:14:26 Deewiant: You could use one of those fancy SMT things to check it. 14:14:31 http://hackage.haskell.org/package/sbv, e.g. 14:14:44 I don't know whether they're clever/good enough to. 14:14:50 And I didn't exactly care about the runtime, either. <-- so there's no reason not to just bump up the bits. 14:15:07 elliott, SMT... I heard this before, what did it stand for now again 14:15:10 something modulo? 14:15:11 At least expressing it with one of them wouldn't be any harder than writing the Haskell code. :p 14:15:15 Vorpal: Satisfiability, theories. 14:15:20 elliott, ah right 14:15:21 elliott: That's probably an order of magnitude slower than boolector and whatnot. 14:15:25 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satisfiability_Modulo_Theories 14:15:31 elliott, I quite like Something Modulo Thingies :P 14:15:38 Deewiant: It doesn't dot he solving itself. 14:15:40 Deewiant: *do the 14:15:48 Deewiant: It uses Yices or something. 14:15:55 Yices is kind of shitty IIRC. 14:16:11 https://github.com/LeventErkok/sbv/tree/master/Data/SBV/Provers 14:16:14 Anyway, I could just as easily express it in C and probably get faster runtime :-P 14:16:16 Also Z3. 14:16:27 elliott, what about z3? 14:16:29 Z3 is performant. 14:16:31 (I used it) 14:16:37 Vorpal: It supports it. 14:16:40 ah right 14:16:42 Deewiant: I somewhat doubt even C could enumerate 2^64 integers in a reasonable timeframe. 14:16:51 elliott: Of course it can't. 14:17:01 Deewiant: You don't say. 14:17:10 I meant, express it in C and get the SMT problem from that. 14:17:28 Deewiant: I doubt that would buy you anything over sbv, since it extracts to C anyway. 14:17:44 Ah, then maybe not. 14:18:13 Deewiant, why C->SMT? Are there automated tools for that or something? 14:18:15 * elliott considers getting sbv working and trying it himself. 14:18:16 But anyway, I'm not sure that SMT solvers could figure it out. 14:18:28 ONLY ONE WAY TO FIND OUT 14:18:39 assmebly language could do it 14:18:47 (Which is the best one in https://github.com/LeventErkok/sbv/tree/master/Data/SBV/Provers? I don't really want to try and get more than one of these things working.) 14:18:51 ^assembly 14:19:01 itidus21, no, there is no way you can even run a simple loop that just counts up to 2^64 :P 14:19:02 itidus21: What, enumerate all 64-bit integers? 14:19:06 I tried finding examples of "des(x) == x" with SMT solvers and didn't get a solution after some 875 hours of CPU time. 14:19:11 i guess not 14:19:22 Deewiant: That property is a lot simpler than des(x) == x :P 14:19:25 point is though that if asm can't do it then it can't be done 14:19:27 you know what? I'm not convinced Funge-98 is an esolang 14:19:31 :t des 14:19:32 Not in scope: `des' 14:19:36 itidus21: Yes it can, you just have to use your brain. 14:19:36 although I guess here's as good a place to discuss it as any 14:19:37 wtf is des? 14:19:43 Vorpal: DES 14:19:44 oh wait, DES? 14:19:46 right 14:19:51 itidus21: Brute force is not the only way to solve every problem. 14:19:57 itidus21: Also, asm is not even the lowest level you can get at. 14:20:20 if the problem is ennumerating all 64 bit integers 14:20:22 Vorpal: I did C at that time so that I could go C -> LLVM -> optimized LLVM -> hand-translated SMT 14:20:24 ais523, what is it then? It is not exactly a main stream language. 14:20:35 Oh, Yices and Z3 are the only ones supported. 14:20:38 then asm would be your best bet :P 14:20:38 Z3 is better, I guess? 14:20:51 Does cheater expect his trolling to be successful? 14:20:55 ais523, I think it is just an esolang that borders on not being one. But still firmly on the esolang side of things. 14:20:59 itidus21: No, it wouldn't. 14:21:05 Sgeo: What's he doing this time? 14:21:09 BTW, he's in here. 14:21:10 any funge derivative is an esolang 14:21:15 hey guys what is the opposite of return? ... 14:21:20 i want something like <- 14:21:35 cheater: ever heard of comonads? 14:21:38 Sgeo: You assume he's trolling, but I think he might just be stupid. 14:21:45 they have unreturn and unjoin as their primitives, no matter what elliott wants to call them 14:21:52 At least if #haskell over many months is any indicator. 14:21:58 elliott: IIRC Z3 was about twice as fast as yices on average in SMT-COMP 2011 14:22:00 Deewiant: Incidentally this is the map-related decision I briefly mentioned: http://www.maanmittauslaitos.fi/tiedotteet/2011/12/raha-asiainvaliokunta-puoltaa-avausehdotusta -- so starting first of May, there's going to be some datta. 14:22:05 ais523, what does elliott want to call them? 14:22:14 fizzie: Alright, cool. 14:22:33 Deewiant, which one was fastest? 14:22:38 Vorpal: Z3, IIRC. :-P 14:22:40 Of course in the US it's been a law that all federally produced stuff is free for who knows how long. :p 14:22:40 He solved his problem with binds and lambdas, apparently 14:22:45 Deewiant, I meant out of all 14:22:47 elliott: i wouldn't even know how to go to lower levels than asm :P 14:22:51 Vorpal: Yes, that's what I meant as well. 14:22:55 ah okay 14:23:07 i have heard of microcode though 14:23:15 Vorpal: There were many benchmarks and it didn't win all of them, but it was the fastest for my use case at least. 14:23:17 itidus21: I was thinking FPGAs. 14:23:47 would you put them on a board and plug it in? :D 14:24:46 i say this to hint at the fact that i doubt very many individuals ever make their own AGP/PCI cards 14:24:56 and maybe it's an underdeveloped area 14:25:03 problem with FPGAs is that unless you can take advantage of their different architecture it is going to be slower 14:25:20 I believe the top clock frequencies for FPGAs is around 200 MHz 14:25:27 (might be somewhat out of date on that) 14:25:35 they don't need a high clock speed 14:25:46 [ 1 of 104] Compiling Data.SBV.Utils.Lib ( Data/SBV/Utils/Lib.hs, dist/build/SBVUnitTests/SBVUnitTests-tmp/Data/SBV/Utils/Lib.o ) 14:25:47 hmm.. im daydreaming 14:25:51 and you don't really need to take advantage of the architecture beyond running thousands of cores in parallel 14:25:53 ais523, indeed, if the problem is suited to being done on an FPGA of course. 14:25:55 Deewiant: It'll probably take 2 seconds to check but ten years to install sbv 14:26:00 ais523, and that is what I meant 14:26:02 if your project parallelises easily, no issue using FPGAs at all 14:26:23 hmm 14:26:29 ais523, if it doesn't parallelise you have issues though 14:26:59 yeah, i want to develop a GLU = game logic unit :P (not really.. sounds cool though) 14:27:04 Vorpal: not really; see, e.g. the stats at the end of http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~drg/papers/icfp11.pdf 14:27:10 ais523, hm are there any embarrassingly non-parallelisable problems? 14:27:23 ais523: counting to 2^64 parallelises really easily 14:27:35 we gave an input which is pretty much the worst possible algorithm for implementing on an FPGA, and the resulting circuit did no parallelism at all 14:27:43 elliott, you can't use 2^64 "cores" though 14:28:01 and yet it was within a factor of 2 of the algol, and within a factor of around 7 of ocaml 14:28:09 what is achieved by counting though.. the algorithm makes no sense 14:28:22 even with just the one thread, the advantage gained from hardcoding your program into the hardware is noticeable 14:28:23 Vorpal: Well, it would work. 14:28:29 its like in brainfuck you would optimize ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 14:28:41 elliott, what would? 14:28:48 Vorpal: Using 2^64 cores. 14:29:00 elliott, no it wouldn't due to you not having that many 14:29:09 Vorpal: That doesn't mean it parallelises any worse. 14:29:11 so you could optimize the counting problem to just setting a variable to 2^64 14:29:15 elliott, of course 14:29:19 time vs space tradeoff :D 14:29:25 elliott, but what I mean is that it isn't a practical solution 14:29:28 2^64 is too big 14:29:41 ais523: We recently had some visiting guy from Japan doing signal processing (sound recognition; not speech, just environmental sounds in general) on an FPGA. 14:29:52 * elliott wonders how long it'd take the top supercomputer to count to 2^64 (in parallel). 14:29:57 itidus21: how is that a tradeoff? 14:30:06 itidus21, the problem was actually to run a function on each value 14:30:12 Apparently it was rather faster than running the equivalent stuff on DSP cores. 14:30:14 oklopol: oh.. my posts dont make sense sequentially 14:30:23 oh. 14:30:26 Or non-sequentially. 14:30:28 fizzie, nice 14:30:43 Deewiant: What, z3's not open-sores? :/ 14:30:52 elliott, it is MS research 14:30:57 2^64 cores solution demands more space... using 1 core demands more time 14:30:58 Vorpal: So is GHC. 14:31:04 elliott, you need to use a really old version or run it under wine 14:31:24 itidus21, the bf case is not a tradeoff at all 14:31:30 nor is just setting a variable 14:31:43 Vorpal: i know.. hence my comment about my posts don't make sense sequentially 14:31:44 Vorpal: It was all "and then we made our vectors this long..." "but what about the running time?" "we just used more gates". 14:32:07 ais523, I wonder why there aren't FPGAs in normal computers. To offload problems to. Just like you offload rendering (and other stuff) to GPUs 14:32:25 fizzie, heh 14:32:33 Vorpal: people are starting to do that already, I think 14:32:36 it's not mainstream yet 14:32:39 Deewiant: Oh come on, Yices is closed-source too? 14:32:41 but may become so eventually 14:32:50 elliott: what are these programs for? 14:32:53 ais523: SMT 14:33:01 which expands to? 14:33:02 ais523, I hope so 14:33:10 ais523: satisfiability modulo theories 14:33:22 so it seems to me the formula is.... i = 2 ^ 64 / c where c is the number of cores, and i is the number of iterations per core 14:33:27 Vorpal: if you have a few thousand pounds to spare, you can buy an FPGA add-on for your computer right now 14:33:35 then the problem's just finding software that makes use of it 14:33:38 ais523, sadly I don't have that 14:33:40 and indeed 14:33:46 I can only expect the price to come down over time 14:33:58 it just needs a killer app, really (like gaming for GPUs) 14:34:15 Deewiant: How recent is Z3 2.19? :p 14:34:19 ais523, the problem is no game is going to depend on such a thing, because it would hurt the sales figures 14:34:42 hmm, I added VHDL to Emacs' flymake-mode yesterday 14:34:45 Vorpal: Games have had optional-but-makes-it-prettier things for ages now. 14:34:46 also, turned flymake-mode on by default 14:34:53 ais523, flymake? 14:34:55 (diff) (hist) . . N User:Splu26ri160a‎; 12:55 . . (+4,830) . . Splu26ri160a (Talk | contribs) (New page: Your email could not be delivered error 552. Who knows what this means! SMTP error codes were designed way back in 1982, mainly for other computers to be able to read and understand them. ...) 14:35:01 elliott, well yes 14:35:08 elliott: right, you'd have a game that works fine without it, but ends up with 100 times the framerate or something silly like that with 14:35:09 elliott, you need to find such a use for FPGAs too 14:35:33 Vorpal: actually, I think the FPGA-in-PC market's currently being driven by bitcoin miners 14:35:42 ooh 14:35:47 ais523, I would expect any such killer app to happen in, say, CAD or such first, this would bring it down a bit, then maybe in something more mainstream 14:35:49 sometimes I wonder if bitcoin is actually a cunning plan to advance the state of technology 14:36:08 Vorpal: I don't get why CAD would require that sort of processor power 14:36:10 ais523, didn't the price of bitcoin collapse or something iirc? 14:36:15 ais523: everything is "actually a [...] technology" 14:36:26 ais523, hm okay 14:36:32 ais523, advanced simulation? 14:36:36 Vorpal: yes, although it picked up somewhat after that 14:36:40 fsvo everything 14:37:00 "You should download Z3 version 3.2 or later." 14:37:12 Ah, http://research.microsoft.com/projects/z3/z3-x64-3.2.tar.gz 14:37:16 Vorpal: Not ancient, that's the latest version. 14:37:21 ah nice 14:37:25 im such a phony using expressions like fsvo.. someone could accidently mistake me for one of you 14:37:35 (of course, there's also z-machine for windows. Sadly, no windows for the z-machine yet.) 14:37:36 *I* started the FSVOing. 14:37:36 elliott, last I looked (half a year ago?) that wasn't around 14:37:39 I demand royalties. 14:37:52 Or, maybe Deewiant used it a bit before me. 14:37:56 But I started the influx. 14:38:05 `pastelog fsvo 14:38:15 ais523, z-machines hm, what are those now again? 14:38:23 zork machines? 14:38:30 some game interp, IIRC 14:38:33 ah 14:38:37 intercom 14:38:38 2006-08-29.txt:09:04:18: FSVO "few" \ 2009-07-11.txt:19:21:32: FSVO recently \ 2009-07-20.txt:19:59:04: well, FSVO entirely possible \ 2009-07-24.txt:18:56:18: AnMaster: fsvo love equal to shit \ 2009-07-24.txt:18:56:25: "fsvo"? \ 2009-07-24.txt:18:56:36: fsvo. \ 2009-07-24.txt:18:56:37: `translate fsvo \ 2009-07-24.txt:18:56:38: fsvo 14:39:04 hackego's heart just wasn't in it 14:39:12 elliott: I don't think I've ever used the abbreviation "FSVO", at least. 14:39:23 Deewiant, for some values of used? 14:39:29 Har har. 14:39:45 I don't have the logs on this computer so meh 14:40:21 ooh, I've reached the arrival of ehird` in my great log reread 14:40:28 Prelude Data.SBV> prove $ \(x::SWord8) -> x .== 0 14:40:28 *** An error occurred. 14:40:28 *** Unable to locate executable for Yices 14:40:28 *** Executable specified: "yices" 14:40:32 it's been over three years now 14:40:32 Aw come on. 14:40:36 ais523: FSVO great. 14:40:41 ais523: I still plan to read every single log in order some day. 14:40:45 2009-07-24 20:57:13( Deewiant) http://www.google.com/search?q=fsvo 14:41:00 That's the only use other than that "I don't think I've ever used" use. 14:41:08 wow, it's so weird to see elliott not knowing something about the channel 14:41:20 Deewiant: that isn't a use, that's a mention 14:41:28 ais523: what, Deewiant not using FSVO, or? 14:41:29 Fair enough. 14:41:35 (the referent of "that" is ambiguous there, but the statement's right both ways) 14:41:53 elliott: Google-searching something is mentioning it, not using it 14:42:00 ooh 14:42:06 Prelude Data.SBV> proveWith z3 $ \(x::SWord8) -> x .== x 14:42:06 Q.E.D. 14:42:14 Deewiant: OK what was the proposition again. 14:42:21 Which one? 14:42:25 Deewiant: The one. 14:42:36 > filter (uncurry (<)) [(fromIntegral (abs d :: Int32) :: Word32, fromIntegral (gcd (2^32 :: Int64) (fromIntegral d :: Int64)) :: Word32) | d <- [minBound..maxBound :: Int32], d /= 0] 14:42:40 mueval-core: Time limit exceeded 14:42:44 That lasted long. 14:42:47 elliott: oh, we may have been using TC all wrong 14:42:58 there was a goodmathbadmath post about the difference between turing-complete and turing-equivalent 14:43:09 ais523, oh? what is the difference? 14:43:13 (a TC computation is one that requires at least a TE interp to run) 14:43:19 ah 14:43:36 http://scienceblogs.com/goodmath/2007/01/turing_equivalent_vs_turing_co.php 14:43:45 ais523, are there any known TC computations? 14:43:53 err, yes? 14:43:57 a brainfuck interpreter? 14:44:16 elliott, apart from interpreting TE interps I mean 14:44:17 yep, interpreting a TE language is the most common one 14:44:31 another one is to run all possible programs in a particular TE lang in parallel 14:44:34 and output when each of them halts 14:45:04 (if you don't care about the exact details of how the threads interleave, running infinitely many things in parallel is trivial) 14:45:54 okay let me rephrase that: are there any known TC computations that doesn't involve TE languages. 14:45:56 `searchlog itidus computation limit 14:45:58 Deewiant: What's the corresponding form for 8-bit? Just s/Int32/Int8/ s/Word32/Word8/? 14:46:00 hmm, what2D languages have nothing to do with Befunge? 14:46:08 *what 2D 14:46:12 2012-01-12.txt:14:45:56: `searchlog itidus computation limit 14:46:16 ais523: biota 14:46:28 elliott: And 2^8 14:46:31 bah.. anyway.. i think one of you directed me to the gravity esolang 14:46:36 elliott: And the Int64 is of course just "some bigger int" 14:46:41 Deewiant: Right. Could the Int64 be shortened to ... right. 14:46:44 when i was questioning the limits of computation 14:46:47 elliott: ah, interesting 14:46:51 itidus21, I believe that one is uncomputable? 14:46:53 made by the inventor of c2, I didn't expect that 14:47:38 there was another time discussing sumamoito where i held the belief for a short moment that sumamoito was uncomputable 14:47:44 but elliott cleared up that mistake for me 14:48:13 hmm, is Biota the only esolang ever to have been sold at a profit? 14:48:29 huh, sold at a profit? 14:48:33 Deewiant: This is FUN. 14:49:04 ais523, under what circumstances did that happen? 14:49:33 do bees hibernate? 14:49:45 Vorpal: not sure; apparently someone found Biota useful enough to buy it 14:49:49 heh 14:49:55 the idea was to make a language that was reasonably resistant to mutation 14:50:06 it was devised by ward cunningham apparently (looking at the wiki) 14:50:20 and he is a big name so i guess he can sell esolangs 14:50:28 ais523, sounds similar to a design requirement for Creatures 14:50:41 Uh, big name != ability to find a buyer for esolangs 14:50:41 "The inventor of Biota. Also, the inventor of the wiki, having created the Internet's first wiki at c2.com. Outside of the esolangs community, he is far more famous for the latter. " 14:51:01 possibly inside the esolangs community too 14:51:13 Smalltalk source in a text file? 14:51:27 text file's a good way to store source 14:51:32 i am curious though 14:51:39 I bet even @lang has a text representation it can roundtrip via 14:51:40 what exactly do you sell with an esolang 14:51:55 do you sell the BNF? 14:52:00 an interp for it? copyrights on the spec? support? 14:52:02 ais523: Biota predates esolangs, really 14:52:07 or an implementation.. both? 14:52:11 ais523, I'm guessing elliott is going to go with no? (wrt text) 14:52:11 and wasn't intended as one 14:52:30 it was devised by ward cunningham apparently (looking at the wiki) 14:52:39 itidus21: The irony of this statement is palpable. 14:52:51 it's really unlike funge in pretty much every way, it's more like sansism 14:53:03 I bet even @lang has a text representation it can roundtrip via 14:53:04 elliott: no capital W, it's OK 14:53:06 Not really. 14:53:13 besides, the Wiki says it was deviced by ward cunningham too 14:53:27 i have read up on ward a teeny bit before 14:53:36 something about patterns 14:53:50 Deewiant: The hard part is the casting here. :p 14:53:51 that his wiki focuses on patterns perhaps.. 14:53:58 Deewiant: Oh, SignCast is what I want. 14:54:06 maybe something about extreme programming 14:54:17 heh, discussion of the timeout challenge on anagolf 14:54:28 ais523, link? 14:54:35 and the way that the golfiest way to get a timeout in ruby is `vi` 14:54:40 Vorpal: 2008-01-18 14:54:43 oh 14:54:47 the idea of copyrighting a language spec just isn't cool 14:55:18 C does it! 14:55:20 itidus21, I would assume C# or such is copyrighted? 14:55:24 Deewiant: Reassure me that (unsignCast . extend . signCast) will DTRT, thx 14:55:26 and yes C and so on too 14:55:31 it could be done in a predatory way 14:55:32 Erm 14:55:36 (signCast . extend . unsignCast) 14:55:50 hmm, clearly, the esolang just refuses to function unless you've paid its author money 14:56:05 if you patch out the check that does that, you're no longer conforming to the spec 14:56:12 heh 14:56:22 all those little details 14:56:53 itidus21, when did you first come here btw? 14:57:03 prop.hs:22:13: 14:57:03 Context reduction stack overflow; size = 21 14:57:03 Use -fcontext-stack=N to increase stack size to N 14:57:03 $dSignCast :: SignCast SWord8 SInt16 14:57:03 $dSignCast :: SignCast SWord16 SInt8 14:57:03 $dSignCast :: SignCast SWord8 SInt16 14:57:05 not that long ago 14:57:05 $dSignCast :: SignCast SWord16 SInt8 14:57:07 $dSignCast :: SignCast SWord8 SInt16 14:57:07 ah 14:57:09 $dSignCast :: SignCast SWord16 SInt8 14:57:11 $dSignCast :: SignCast SWord8 SInt16 14:57:12 under a year ago 14:57:13 elliott: wow, you really used to hate funge-98 14:57:13 :-| 14:57:19 :t gcd 14:57:20 forall a. (Integral a) => a -> a -> a 14:57:21 ais523, why= 14:57:27 meanwhile, I had a sudden realisation that I'm a call-by-name fanboy 14:57:38 Paul Levy has promised to shock me out of it next week, I'll be interested in that 14:57:51 ais523, you actually like call by name? why? 14:57:53 Vorpal: for being so much more complex than -93 14:58:05 ais523, also who is Paul Levy? 14:58:06 like, suppose brainfuck was copyrighted 14:58:10 Vorpal: because it's so much more natural and intuitive than CBV, and has many fewer special cases 14:58:15 Vorpal: the call by push value guy 14:58:21 hm 14:58:22 he was mentioned to me by elliott, I think 14:58:26 would it be that you could just replace one char with another? 14:58:29 ais523, what about call by reference? 14:58:30 who was surprised to discover that we worked in the same department 14:58:38 Vorpal: hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha 14:58:57 ais523, thanks. The reaction was everything I hoped. 14:59:12 hoped for* 14:59:20 call by push name, pls 14:59:57 21:28:39: gcc insists char [x][y] 14:59:58 21:28:45: is really really different from char ** 15:00:12 elliott: wow, I'd never expected such a misconception coming from you 15:00:33 sadly, my response to you was also a misconception 15:00:53 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bangalore_India_Tech_books_for_sale_IMG_5261.jpg 15:01:06 Deewiant: Oh, dear 15:01:15 Deewiant: I'm going to have to write my own gcd 15:01:28 ais523: Please, don't assume 2008-ehird is me; I dislike him quite intensely 15:01:44 ais523, anyway I quite like call by value for strict languages anyway. I guess call by name might make more sense in a lazy language hm 15:02:19 Vorpal: Note that a language does not (should not) have to enforce a call strategy. 15:02:29 It's an implementation detail. 15:02:38 elliott, I believe C enforces call by value? 15:02:45 Haskell, for example, only requires non-strict semantics; so lazy evaluation, call-by-name, etc. are all legitimate implementation strategies. 15:02:45 so is there such a thing as a public domain programming language? 15:02:58 Vorpal: As-if rule says it doesn't, although there's not much you could do with that flexibility. 15:03:01 itidus21: everything on http://esolangs.org/w 15:03:14 elliott, hm 15:03:34 @src gcd 15:03:34 gcd 0 0 = error "Prelude.gcd: gcd 0 0 is undefined" 15:03:34 gcd x y = gcd' (abs x) (abs y) 15:03:34 where gcd' a 0 = a 15:03:34 gcd' a b = gcd' b (a `rem` b) 15:03:36 Yay 15:03:38 so biota is public domain by now right? :D 15:04:03 elliott, which evaluation stratergy does ghc use? 15:04:10 strategy* 15:04:11 Vorpal: Lazy. 15:04:14 ah 15:04:35 Vorpal: So, call-by-need. 15:04:40 right 15:04:51 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 15:05:08 -!- ais523_ has joined. 15:05:10 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:05:11 spod 15:05:12 Phantom_Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 15:05:13 hi Phantom_Hoover 15:05:17 19:03:06: I'm pondering writing a befunge interpreter in bash, however, I'm not clear on one point, while the size of the playfield isn't limited in Befunge-98, is it "not limited in one dimension, but still limited in the other" or "totally unlimited"? 15:05:23 see, I can poke fun at past-all-of-us 15:05:26 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 15:05:30 apart from people who weren't there 15:06:12 wow I had forgotten that befunge implementation. It kind of worked for -93 I remember. 15:06:13 Deewiant: I run into the roadblock of having no idea how to extend this thing with functions :P 15:06:16 ugly piece of crap though 15:06:26 Not as ugly as cfunge! 15:06:28 since bash really doesn't like null-bytes 15:06:32 -!- cheater_ has joined. 15:06:58 I had to store null bytes as something else 15:07:08 forgot how I solved that 15:07:23 Vorpal: Yo, how do I define gcd in Z3 15:07:32 ASCII escape? 15:07:38 Hmm, I guess you have to specify them as axioms 15:07:47 elliott, no clue. When I said I used z3 I mean I used it as a backend to something else 15:07:54 and it worked pretty well for that 15:10:48 -!- ais523_ has joined. 15:10:59 [15:07] Vorpal: you stored them as the string "NUL" 15:11:01 [15:07] apparently, you got most of -98 sort-of-working too 15:11:09 it completed Mycology but with a few BADs and no fingerprints 15:11:17 -!- ais523 has quit (Disconnected by services). 15:11:18 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 15:11:26 -!- ais523 has changed nick to ais523|sl. 15:11:28 ais523, heh 15:11:29 I forgot all about this nick 15:11:37 sl? 15:11:47 it was a typo for something 15:11:48 http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/sbv/0.9.24/doc/html/Data-SBV-Examples-CodeGeneration-GCD.html 15:11:49 aha 15:11:51 i suppose i have fun creating trouble by saying things of an imbalancing nature 15:12:03 "Why 12? We've empirically determined that this algorithm will recurse at most 12 times for arbitrary 8-bit numbers. Of course, this is a claim that we shall prove below." 15:12:04 but what next.. what next? 15:12:07 argh, it only works for 8-bits 15:12:07 ais523|sl, I believe I didn't actually handle arbitrarily wide playfield (because bash only had one-dimensional arrays) just a very large value 15:12:15 ais523|sl, and that didn't trip up mycology 15:12:22 i'll tell you what next 15:12:23 sgcd :: SWord8 -> SWord8 -> SWord8 15:12:23 sgcd a b = go a b 12 15:12:23 where go :: SWord8 -> SWord8 -> SWord8 -> SWord8 15:12:23 go x y c = ite (c .== 0 ||| y .== 0) -- stop if y is 0, or if we reach the recursion depth 15:12:23 x 15:12:24 (go y y' (c-1)) 15:12:26 where (_, y') = x `bvQuotRem` y 15:12:28 oh! 15:12:30 it supports sharing 15:12:58 ais523|sl, anyway I have no clue where the source for that thing is, if I even have it still. It is probably around in a backup. Which year was it? 15:13:03 A program whose instructions exist in continuous space. 15:13:08 2008 15:13:13 you made cfunge a couple of days later 15:13:17 heh 15:13:38 I believe I was still learning C at the time 15:14:08 A further deviation of the continuous chess idea 15:14:39 Oh no. 15:14:52 Phantom_Hoover, hm? 15:14:54 cellular automata are so friendly with their tile-alignment 15:14:54 ais523|sl: Hey, you'll hit fungot's first appearance soon, if you haven't already; that's in 2008 too. 15:14:54 fizzie: thank you for the positive approach which makes use of a gmo may be authorised against the will of the majority of members of parliament. 15:15:21 fungot, wow that sounds scary 15:15:22 Vorpal: mr president, here with me in this matter, though i feel this is necessary. my view is that dublin i achieved its objectives of regulating the market in may, as we know, allocates eur fnord million in the 2001 budget. having always been in favour of all the services and reception facilities must apply to all the others and extend its cooperation with states who find themselves excluded from it. 15:15:27 iti isn't so funny when he gets at your ideas. 15:15:43 Also I see that "^raw" was free-for-all at first, and the fourth thing the bot said on channel was "PISS OUT MY ASS". 15:15:52 How... typical. 15:16:00 wow 15:16:02 who said that 15:16:04 but an infinite space where there are only points and edges, all existing at relative distances from each other 15:16:07 fizzie: :D 15:16:15 fizzie, did it run on cfunge from the start or was it rcfunge first? 15:16:18 I don't remember 15:16:19 rcfunge 15:16:24 -!- Ngevd has joined. 15:16:30 fungot: PISS OUT MY ASS 15:16:31 elliott: mr president, i think that, while the agency has lost 20 because of these shortcomings that we are very happy, i think, is to consolidate what has been said demonstrates the tendency and effort to liberate tibet and censure the peoples republic of china since 1986, especially in the central southern areas of the country is very complex, because we need to deploy all the resources, if the ban remains in place, as was re 15:16:46 Rc/Funge-98 was what I started with, yes. 15:16:48 elliott: last night, that there are no easy answers. i hope that parliament will be right behind you. mr rack was right: the iraqi people should be given the power of the judiciary, with clear figures and sanctions. furthermore, there were procedures which the court of auditors' reports, and i would like to ask the european commission has been made so far on the closure of the pas de calais plant is the worst one. since the dis 15:17:00 fungot: YUO BUG. 15:17:01 elliott: madam president, it is in taking repressive measures, restore the constitutional state and release all 30 remaining political prisoners. 15:17:07 fungot: STILL NOT ELLIOTT. 15:17:07 fizzie: mr president, i would like to give a high profile in contrast to the much discussed issue of category. as you will be able to turn back the clock of history. 15:17:18 fizzie, what causes that bug? 15:17:25 What bug? 15:17:27 It's part of the same corruption thing. 15:17:32 I see no bug. 15:17:49 Phantom_Hoover: yeah i just find the discrete space of befunge to be too "easy" 15:17:59 elliott, you said one line and it highlighted you 3 times rather than the person who actually triggered it 15:18:11 fizzie, hm maybe it is overlong lines or such? 15:18:25 fizzie, try increasing the size of some buffers to more than what should be required? 15:18:31 discrete 2d graphs in general, with a finite number of neighbours for each cell 15:18:38 how dull 15:18:42 Yes, it could be the text-generation making overlong sentences, though those should have limits. 15:18:46 -!- ais523|sl has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 15:18:48 Aaah!!! 15:18:49 Hello! 15:18:54 Vorpal: Here's how it saw the last lines: http://sprunge.us/cdNL 15:19:08 Vorpal: Oh. 15:19:23 fizzie, hrrm. 15:19:41 fizzie: Can the text generator overflow if a /word/ is too long? 15:19:41 fizzie, that explains why Pietbot isn't working! 15:19:47 fizzie: Like, it's under, appends a word, and that makes it go oevr. 15:19:48 over. 15:20:28 elliott: I don't really recall at all. My guess is it's writing directly to the "output line" buffer, but I could be worng. 15:20:30 ^source 15:20:30 http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98 15:20:32 fizzie, just in case you might want to try valgrind. I can't say I have debugged the network code much past making sure mycology passes, which iirc gives 100% branch coverage (excluding "failed to connect" style branches) 15:21:26 I don't really see what sort of C code bug could cause that result though 15:21:33 the code is fairly simple iirc 15:23:37 100% branch coverage excluding branches. 15:24:05 elliott, I should point out that there are actually branches in cfunge testing if malloc returned NULL :P 15:24:15 elliott, I'm talking about that sort of branches. 15:24:31 elliott, and a lot of input validation 15:24:37 Line 0 is the input buffer I read to with SOCK; line 3 has the current IRC message line before parsing, and is also used for the reply; lines 4... are the separate parts (prefix, command, arguments) of the IRC line. If I mungle around on line 3, that shouldn't matter, since in the next round it *should* copy a new line on top of it. Line 8 is used for reading the babble model files, and line 9 has the generated tokens of the sentence. 15:24:39 I have code to test all of that 15:24:45 except the malloc ones 15:24:58 In general though I'd expect that even if one of these buffers overflow, they'd stay on their respective lines. 15:25:27 fizzie, hm any literal newlines that might mess up anywhere? 15:25:34 oh wait you use FILE right? 15:25:37 so probably not 15:26:26 about that good math bad math thing, the guy didn't give any references so i think its ok to hold onto your definitions of TC for now 15:26:27 Yes, and even if you 'p' a newline it won't change the topology of the space (sadly). But of course there might well be bugs in anywhere. 15:26:42 fizzie, I was thinking about io with i 15:26:44 until there is some signifigant proof 15:26:48 you could run into newline issues there 15:27:00 Oh, right. Well, no, I don't use 'i' except for ^reload. 15:27:14 i mean the mere fact that the guy is a mathematician phd blogger working at google doesn't give him final word 15:27:51 fizzie, anyway how many bytes do you read from the socket? Could you end up with reading 511 out of 512 chars or such? 15:28:04 afaik SOCK doesn't split into lines for you 15:28:17 fizzie, so I assume you deal with partial lines somehow? 15:28:26 Vorpal: I read up to fff** bytes at a time. 15:28:30 about that good math bad math thing, the guy didn't give any references so i think its ok to hold onto your definitions of TC for now 15:28:38 fizzie, what if you have a partial line in the OS buffer? 15:28:43 itidus21: The guy is prominent enough to *be* the reference, methinks. 15:29:01 so how did you guys get it wrong? :P 15:29:11 might be a state of panic 15:29:15 Yes, and even if you 'p' a newline it won't change the topology of the space (sadly). 15:29:17 fizzie, a line could be split over multiple packets due to Nagel's algorithm bunching up a bit of data and you hitting the limit for the packet size in the middle of a line 15:29:18 fizzie: Very sadly indeed. 15:29:33 probably due to other reasons as well 15:29:36 as far as language goes, language changes.. gay doesn't mean happy 15:29:42 maybe TC now means TE 15:30:00 and maybe this guy is a grump about terminology 15:30:27 Vorpal: It reads into line 0, appending it after the end of any previous incomplete line; then processes all complete lines (that end in CR or LF), and finally copies whatever trailing bytes remain after the last CR or LF to start of line 0, so that the next read appends to that. 15:30:34 Vorpal: Or anyway that's what it's supposed to do. 15:30:38 hm 15:31:13 For each newline it copies the complete IRC-line to line 3, and then does whatever is necessary. 15:31:15 ok i guess he may be right 15:31:29 I think it ignores empty lines before that bit of code, but that shouldn't really be relevant. 15:31:51 (For example the empty line between CR and LF if the server's sending CRLF-terminated lines like it IIRC should.) 15:31:52 I can't see any obvious problems in the algorithms 15:32:02 and I don't feel like debugging befunge code written by someone else 15:32:10 and I just looked at SOCK.c 15:32:14 and it looks in order 15:32:35 very simple code for R 15:32:42 fizzie: Can you write an n-cursor k-d tree zipper for me, please? Thanks 15:33:34 fizzie, what would happen if the server sent LF terminated or CR terminated? 15:33:49 Nothing much, except there wouldn't be any empty lines to ignore. 15:33:54 It accepts both as terminators. 15:33:58 fizzie, also if you replay the input, does the bug still happen? 15:34:14 No, IIRC; that's sort-of why I suspect the babblerator. 15:34:24 how do you do the randomness? 15:34:27 Though it of course might have to do with the reads getting split up at different places. 15:34:32 With "?", what else?-) 15:34:33 (?) 15:34:35 hm 15:34:47 fizzie, I believe there is some fingerprint that provides random(n), not sure 15:34:51 Anyway, I needs to go grocery shopping now, back laters. 15:34:54 cya 15:35:35 elliott: basically seems to me he is trying to say that a language/machine is TE, but a program is TC 15:35:39 oh yes, FIXP (an rcfunge one) provides D for fixed point randomness 15:35:47 err, integer randomness even 15:35:59 which I see I do in the rather naive way. 15:36:17 (random() % n) <-- don't do this at home kids 15:36:39 (at least I left a comment about it) 15:36:40 "It's about the distinction between a Turing equivalent computing system, and a Turing complete computation. " 15:38:41 don't worry guys im sure your wiki pages don't need updating 15:44:34 -!- Ngevd has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:44:55 -!- Ngevd has joined. 15:45:57 im a teeny bit arrogant :P 15:46:29 Is it possible to make lambdabot give someone a message at a particular time 15:46:56 who created lambabot, was it roger g? 15:46:57 Ngevd, if that time is "when they next speak", sure 15:47:18 itidus21: Many people. 15:47:27 oh ok 15:47:32 Vorpal, I was thinking more along the lines of first of february 15:47:45 hmm.. 15:48:20 itidus21: It's been around for at least 8 years, I think. 15:48:24 Probably longer. 15:49:01 Ngevd: do you mean to simulate a regular @tell on the specified moment? 15:49:16 itidus21, that would be nice, but not necassarily 15:49:33 the person might not be there at the specified time 15:49:44 It's going to be me 15:51:40 Ngevd: Just @tell yourself to @tell yourself about it then. 15:51:48 And keep re@telling yourself about it until the day before. 15:52:15 @tell ngevd Is it possible to make lambdabot give someone a message at a particular time 15:52:15 Consider it noted. 15:52:35 @messages 15:52:36 itidus21 said 20s ago: Is it possible to make lambdabot give someone a message at a particular time 15:53:30 thats my try 15:55:09 Vorpal, I was thinking more along the lines of first of february <-- log on then and give them that message? 15:55:18 Ngevd, or schedule cron on your computer to send it? 15:55:38 Hmm 15:57:04 the difference with me is i have practical uses for these topics 15:57:31 im not trying to fix whats not broken 15:57:41 itidus21 is actually a Computer Science teacher 15:57:54 like, evolution vs intelligent design is not actually helpful :D 15:58:40 at least it's not a useful end in itself. i guess it generates cool things in the same way as chess ai research does 15:59:09 Chess AI is next-to-useless except for playing chess 15:59:22 What would be useful is an AI for some psychological game 15:59:22 oh crud 15:59:25 Like Uno 15:59:57 but i mean (in my idealistic fairyland) that chess AI research improves the AI technology and such 16:00:11 can i prove it? no.. i just take peoples word on it 16:00:30 Ngevd: I think gmail has a todo date reminder thing. 16:00:32 You could use that. 16:00:34 i guess its like how games create a market for graphics cards which accelerates their development 16:01:11 Ngevd, poker? 16:01:31 Ngevd, also check your phone, I can put reminders in mine 16:01:51 like "08:00 exam" 16:01:54 Bah, I never have my phone on 16:02:09 Gmail seems the best option 16:02:10 I only turn mine off when sleeping 16:02:27 and unless I'm home it is always in my pocket 16:02:35 when I'm home it is usually somewhere on my desk 16:03:07 traditional chinese medicine may have developed due to attempts to create an immortality system 16:03:57 -!- cheater has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 16:04:19 chemistry may have developed due to trying to turn lead into gold 16:04:56 etc 16:05:01 which is probably possible but not very cost efficient 16:05:42 hm lead is 89 and gold 79. I guess you need to split lead to get gold then 16:06:06 Gold and Neon? 16:06:18 this painting itself is cooler than the act it depicts http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c1/JosephWright-Alchemist-1.jpg 16:06:26 Ngevd, is that the difference? 16:06:36 Yes 16:06:49 Neon has 10 protons 16:06:52 Ngevd, well we want to get the lighter element out of the heavier, not the other way around 16:06:54 so hrrm 16:07:07 I'm no physisist 16:07:19 nor am I 16:08:00 for me, the goal is always games 16:08:23 uh? 16:08:30 yeah 16:08:39 and what does it depict 16:08:43 itidus21, and goal for what? 16:08:46 alchemy 16:08:52 ^it depicts alchemy 16:08:55 itidus21, I meant more specifically 16:09:03 i dunno man i stumbled on it in wiki 16:09:06 right 16:09:13 then I don't get the cooler thingy you just said 16:09:14 and i mean the goal of any study or serious work 16:09:22 cool as in impressive 16:09:31 alchemy inspired that painting 16:09:38 itidus21, so in the end you want games out of everything? 16:09:47 computer games? 16:09:48 and.. i think the painting is more valuable than gold 16:10:39 nah, i don't want to limit it to computer games 16:11:04 but primarily yes 16:11:20 just as most music is done through a computer these days :P 16:11:25 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 16:11:32 ok well i know the playing isn't 16:11:35 but the listening is 16:11:53 uh.. no? It is generally done through sound waves 16:11:56 :P 16:14:27 i have done the thinkin 16:14:30 ^thinking 16:14:44 there is no good reason why gaming can't be an end in itself 16:14:46 -!- Klisz has joined. 16:21:02 thing I just wrote: 16:21:03 class R t where 16:21:03 simple 16:21:04 :: ((t ~ Void) => Proxy () -> r) 16:21:04 -> (forall a. (t ~ Const a, Reg a) => Proxy a -> r) 16:21:04 -> ((t ~ Id) => Proxy () -> r) 16:21:04 -> (forall a b. (t ~ (a :+: b), R a, R b) => Proxy (a (), b ()) -> r) 16:21:06 -> (forall a b. (t ~ (a :*: b), R a, R b) => Proxy (a (), b ()) -> r) 16:21:08 -> (forall a b. (t ~ (a :. b), R a, R b) => Proxy (a (), b ()) -> r) 16:21:10 -> r 16:21:38 I have but the vaguest idea what this doesw 16:30:32 elliott, what is Proxy? 16:30:54 :t Proxy 16:30:55 Not in scope: data constructor `Proxy' 16:30:56 Wow, the sky is beatiful to the west 16:31:01 not built in indeed 16:42:19 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 16:42:35 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 16:44:22 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:48:27 Vorpal, I vaguely think it's a thing to avoid using undefined::Blah all the time, but not sure 16:48:41 hm 16:48:44 Vorpal: http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/tagged/0.2.3.1/doc/html/Data-Proxy.html 16:49:09 elliott, what does tagged do? 16:49:19 Provides Data.Proxy and Data.Tagged. 16:49:35 elliott: helpful 16:49:50 `run echo 'package Foo; our $x;' > test.pl; perl -e 'package Foo; our $x = 2; do "test.pl"; print $x' 16:49:54 "Provides newtype wrappers for phantom types to avoid unsafely passing dummy arguments" 16:49:56 2 16:50:03 oh ho 16:50:03 Sgeo, right 16:50:23 so a non-assigned our declaration does not rewrite anything. 16:50:27 this could be USEFUL 16:50:42 " This can be used in place of the more traditional but less safe idiom of passing in an undefined value with the type, because unlike an (s -> b), a Tagged s b can't try to use the argument s as a real value." 16:50:45 I get it now 16:51:25 (Proxy s -> b) is nicer than (Tagged s b). 16:52:37 So Proxy Foo is an abstract thing that ... refers to type Foo without having a value? 16:53:31 data Proxy a = Proxy 16:53:32 SO ABSTRACT 16:54:08 Ah, was wondering how to make Proxys 16:54:15 So, Proxy::Int instead of undefined::Int 16:54:32 Sgeo: ... 16:54:39 yeah Proxy is a great Int. 16:54:40 Er 16:54:50 Proxy::(Proxy Int) 16:56:30 I can think of preferring to use a Tagged over a Proxy 16:56:45 Means just an untag, instead of a dummy Proxy argument 16:58:00 Sgeo: Taggeds are a lot harder to write implementation code with. 16:58:07 With proxies you can easily retag to recurse etc. 17:00:23 Maybe I'll understand Reflection better 17:01:06 Why proxy s -> a instead of Proxy s -> a? 17:04:41 Let me see if I understand the usage: Code that calls code that .. etc. that use configuration stuff just add a class constraint to their type signature. No extra argument or anything like that. A function that wants the data gets at it by building a Proxy of the appropriate type (ScopedTypeVariables perhaps?) and calling reflect on it. The whole thing is run with reify 17:05:03 Hmm, I'm not entirely sure it makes sense. 17:06:00 Wait, the whole conglamoration needs to accept an argument 17:06:45 I guess every function accepts an extra argument, but ... wait, that makes the whole thing pointless 17:10:08 class Encoding t id (**) pu (++) su where 17:10:08 p_encoding 17:10:09 :: ((t ~ id) => r) 17:10:09 -> ((t ~ pu) => r) 17:10:09 -> ((t ~ su) => r) 17:10:09 -> (forall a b. (t ~ (a**b), 17:10:11 Encoding a id (**) pu (++) su, 17:10:13 Encoding b id (**) pu (++) su) 17:10:15 => Proxy (a (), b ()) -> r) 17:10:17 -> (forall a b. (t ~ (a++b), 17:10:19 Encoding a id (**) pu (++) su, 17:10:21 Encoding b id (**) pu (++) su) 17:10:23 => Proxy (a (), b ()) -> r) 17:10:25 -> r 17:10:27 class Algebraic t id (**) pu (++) su where 17:10:29 type ADT t :: * -> * 17:10:31 encode :: t -> ADT t t 17:10:33 decode :: ADT t t -> t 17:10:35 p_algebraic :: ((Encoding (ADT t) id (**) pu (++) su) => r) -> r 17:11:52 Kind mis-match 17:11:52 The third argument of `Algebraic' should have kind `(* -> *) 17:11:52 -> (* -> *) 17:11:52 -> * 17:11:52 -> *', 17:11:53 but `**' has kind `* -> * -> *' 17:11:54 grr. 17:21:36 -!- zzo38 has joined. 17:31:45 oh nice the last section of this book is some group theory proofs 17:31:51 we won't get to cover that in class though 17:33:37 the first half of the book is... literally the same as in discrete math. 17:36:29 maybe I should take real analysis. er wait I think that requires calc 3 which I didn't take... 17:36:40 MAYBE I SHOULD MAJOR IN MATH????? 17:36:49 or minor 17:36:51 I could do that. 17:37:10 or.... dual major? 17:37:13 that's a thing. 17:37:51 i think you need to find a polymath to be an apprentice for 17:37:56 but that could be a completely dumb idea 17:38:03 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 9.0.1/20111220165912]). 17:39:50 although it is implicit that it could be a dumb idea, i bring attention to it because anyone who actually took that idea to heart could end up in the shadows of someone who doesn't want to be outshined 17:41:07 verily if you want to anticipate new paradigms you need to have some freedom 17:41:21 but i guess everyone needs some training to get started 17:42:19 i mean ahh why must i give advice 17:42:59 anyway, it is as true for academics as it is for sports that you get out what you put in 17:45:09 what is a polymath itidus21 17:45:21 a polymath is an intellectual badass 17:45:37 right 17:45:38 the kind who have villages named after them 17:46:57 it could be argued that they are a jack of many trades 17:47:22 but i think there is some synergy they get from so many trades 17:47:46 wiki defines synergy as "Synergy may be defined as two or more things functioning together to produce a result not independently obtainable." 17:47:59 which fits perfectly with what i said 17:49:52 examples might be leonardo da vinci, gottfried leibniz 17:50:02 im sure newton also 17:50:52 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_polymaths 17:52:59 to be fair it is more about the mind than the body, but some would argue that a strong mind requires a strong body 17:53:20 I want a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_polygons. You know, just famous polygons from around the world. 17:53:45 Okay, there is a "List of polygons, polyhedra and polytopes". 17:53:54 But it's just types of polygons, not individual famous ones. 17:54:31 Of course it does contain e.g. the great inverted snub icosidodecahedron, so it's got that going for it. 17:54:59 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_inverted_snub_icosidodecahedron 17:55:16 It's like a small cute hedgehog, except not quite. 17:55:24 merge them into a "List of polygons, polyhedra, polymaths and polytopes" 17:55:34 and polyglots 17:55:59 fizzie: That is my new favourite polyhedron. 17:56:15 Polypolys 17:56:27 Things that have more than one poly- descriptor 17:59:56 im always struck by ideas.. im not sure whether saying them all is positive. this idea which just hit me due to reading a page wrong is a dictionary where every definition is a poem 18:00:23 not an example usage but literally a definition 18:01:03 this is the idea born of someone who owns so many dictionaries that he realizes they are useless 18:01:48 i suppose poetry would merely be a kind of sugar coating though for the definition 18:04:14 I should try to write the more class descriptions for Aberration Saver prestige class of D&D game, and write some of the spells which have not yet been written (such as Confuse Objects) 18:04:26 ooh heres a nice quote 18:04:32 As Jorge Luis Borges says in the prologue to "El otro, el mismo": "It is often forgotten that (dictionaries) are artificial repositories, put together well after the languages they define. The roots of language are irrational and of a magical nature." 18:06:12 itidus21: O, I didn't see that. But, yes OK. But, there are constructed languages as well and they are difference 18:07:06 i got into a slight argument over lojban on new years eve 18:08:49 oh fuck its already been done 18:09:05 "The first Sanskrit dictionary, the AmarakoĹ›a, was written by Amara Sinha ca. 4th century CE. Written in verse, it listed around 10,000 words." 18:09:48 http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/other_stuff/levels.tex 18:18:46 zzo38: is that a program or a tex document or both? 18:22:12 itidus21: A TeX document is also a program, so it will be both 18:22:58 is it laying out d&d rules? 18:23:25 i mean uhh.. the tex is just used as a markup language right? 18:23:29 itidus21: No, only the experience points needed for each level. The book only has up to level 20 but this one has as many as will fit on the page. 18:23:41 ya 18:23:47 hmmmm 18:24:51 And there is still more room on the page, so I could add more columns, do you have idea what information to add on one page? 18:25:03 i don't know d&d 18:25:30 also i don't make for a good roleplayer.. i don't like the politics 18:26:32 the whole bit where one can make an ego investment in their character and then set up conditions of winning or losing 18:26:37 Politics? 18:26:44 probably not in d&d 18:27:31 but roleplay especially online 18:27:42 itidus21, uh? 18:27:53 itidus21, I'm not familiar with what you mean 18:27:55 like "you have to be descriptive" 18:27:57 oh 18:28:18 Well, we do try to be descriptive. 18:28:42 i have issues thats all 18:28:56 itidus21, I mean with roleplaying online. In which type of game? 18:29:01 some people use roleplay as an escape from reality as i'm told.. but i can't make that leap 18:29:21 reality has too much gravity for me 18:29:54 I play as monster character... so, that is part of the escape from reality; but I also sometimes use actual physics and so on to resolve a spell, so therefore it is similar to reality even if it isn't 18:30:08 `pastelog plaindromes 18:30:13 `pastelog palindromes 18:30:32 this should be good 18:30:38 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.13749 18:30:58 well... not so good 18:31:34 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.30415 18:31:40 itidus21, do you not read fantasy? 18:32:04 i haven't... i think that makes it extra difficult to play fantasy 18:32:04 if you can enjoy fantasy novels then you can probably enjoy RPGs 18:32:22 itidus21, try playing a non-online RPG? 18:32:26 skyrim or whatever 18:32:34 And text adventure game is also a computer game similar to a role playing game. 18:32:36 witcher 2 is rather good, but might be too dark for your tastes 18:33:29 i haven't been corrupted by exposure to the books in the sense that my idea of roleplay is still somewhat free from convention 18:33:41 zzo38, text adventures usually annoy me. You have to try to guess the commands usually and also I can't make a clear map of the environment in my head. 18:33:45 but i have seen a lot of the types of roleplayers i describe chatting 18:34:05 itidus21, "corrupted"? 18:34:12 its kind of funny the whole model of the world which have been developed around rpgs 18:34:44 also eh, RPGs is just an interesting way to pass free the time for me. 18:34:49 each town has a tavern.. in this tavern adventurers sort of.. 18:34:59 itidus21, not really, that is a stereotype 18:35:02 im going to be wrong for a few liens 18:35:15 itidus21, also you can have RPGs in other settings than fantasy 18:35:27 fantasy is certainly the most common but sci-fi is rather common as well 18:35:29 Not always in D&D game and stuff, they don't always have a tavern, or whatever 18:35:34 They are all different 18:35:46 ok 18:36:02 itidus21, you could set an RPG in a contemporary environment easily 18:36:29 Do you like to play multi-class? Do you like to play as monster character? Do you like to do strange thing in game? Sometimes even the referee didn't know you were going to do that, and that make game interesting too? 18:36:47 i don't like competitive role playing anyway 18:36:58 itidus21, consider Deus Ex: It is an FPS/RPG hybrid set into the relatively near future (something like 50 years or so) 18:37:12 i like cooperative because i have some neuroses which make it difficult to compete 18:37:18 zzo38, me? 18:37:36 Vorpal: Including, but not limited to, you; yes. 18:37:42 hm 18:37:44 zzo38, I tend to play computer RPGs mostly 18:37:47 I'm in that palindromes pastelog a lot... 18:37:56 zzo38, single player most of the time 18:38:02 Just for "E, esoteric, ire to see" 18:38:03 zzo38: so rpgs in this sense are not referentially transparent 18:38:11 Computer RPGs are not real role playing games 18:38:18 zzo38, how so? 18:38:22 itidus21: What do you mean by that? 18:38:35 i mean "Sometimes even the referee didn't know you were going to do that, and that make game interesting too?" 18:38:42 zzo38, how are they less real than an RPG on pen and paper? 18:38:55 Vorpal: I mean it isn't a role playing game 18:38:58 zzo38, NWN even uses D&D ruleset for example 18:39:08 That isn't the point 18:39:14 zzo38, what /is/ the point then? 18:39:21 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:39:21 i understand the idea i think, im just playing dumb to flush out the topic 18:39:33 and uh 18:39:37 but haveing said that i havent done a proper game of d&d 18:39:41 im not playing dumb much 18:40:28 itidus21, anyway, I quite like computer RPGs. They move at a faster pace than pen & paper RPGs. 18:40:30 just that i dont quite need the concept explained 18:40:44 i like non rpg rpgs the best 18:40:48 ... 18:41:07 basically, anything made in japan 18:41:08 Vorpal: Surely even you can see the dissimlarity of a role-playing game in which very little role-playing is involved. 18:41:27 hmm 18:41:39 elliott, well that varies between different RPGs. Especially for online RPGs there can be quite a bit or role playing going on 18:41:58 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:42:02 elliott, and pen&paper RPG can easily devolve into a min-max style game play 18:42:12 elliott, so no, the difference isn't that large at all 18:42:18 japan have this way of japanifying everything that hits their shores and they certainly managed it for the rpg 18:42:23 elliott, and pen&paper RPG can easily devolve into a min-max style game play 18:42:25 Only in Sweden. 18:42:32 itidus21, anyway you might like Deus Ex: Human Revolution, it is set into the near future, it is a RPG/FPS hybrid but it deals with interesting moral questions. 18:42:49 elliott, not really. Ever played pen&paper D&D? 18:43:03 Vorpal: yeah my brother has that... i saw him play it.. pretty kick ass world simulation 18:43:09 I have once. And once I played a pen&paper RPG with GURPS 18:43:20 itidus21, the texture quality in that game is pretty shit though. 18:43:28 rolls eyes 18:43:34 itidus21, what? 18:43:50 the graphics thing :P 18:43:52 itidus21, it is a nice game. But it is obviously a console port. 18:43:57 ahhh 18:44:28 itidus21, if you play it on a large computer monitor near you you see things in much more detail than on a TV further away 18:44:40 itidus21, and the result is that it is obviously a console port 18:44:49 im not fussy... my video card sucks 18:45:05 then it might not be playable. Who knows. 18:45:08 i have intentions to upgrade my video card, however, i still doubt my pc can easily handle it 18:45:11 try it and see 18:45:14 -!- augur has joined. 18:45:19 itidus21, how much ram and which CPU? 18:45:29 one moment 18:45:40 itidus21, I ran it from a slow HDD, only issue was that the loading time was like >half a minute 18:45:49 itidus21, can you just type something into IRC for me? 18:45:56 itidus21, when possible I play games from my SSD 18:45:58 ok 18:46:15 "/ignore Vorpal*!*@*" 18:46:22 Phantom_Hoover, why? 18:46:25 Phantom_Hoover, why on earth 18:46:34 is it because he keeps saying my name over and over? 18:46:35 I gotta concur right now. 18:46:46 vorpal hmm i have an idea... 18:46:49 oh the highlight thing, sorry, used to high volue channels 18:46:50 itidus21, I'll explain once you've done it. 18:46:58 ok 18:47:03 Yes, it's most definitely the highlight thing. 18:47:19 will try to remember it isn't needed 18:47:32 Usage: IGNORE 18:47:32 mask - host mask to ignore, eg: *!*@*.aol.com 18:47:32 types - types of data to ignore, one or all of: 18:47:32 PRIV, CHAN, NOTI, CTCP, DCC, INVI, ALL 18:47:32 options - NOSAVE, QUIET 18:47:40 Oh, right 18:47:41 I see you use xchat 18:47:42 "/ignore Vorpal*!*@* ALL" 18:47:47 and don't do it 18:48:03 I think Phantom_Hoover is being a jerk here 18:48:10 ive done it cos i have to see where this is going :P 18:48:16 Excellent. 18:48:21 -!- Gregor has set topic: I'm not a boat, I'm a really, really beautiful cheese grater | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 18:48:30 you could easily just say you did it and not do it 18:48:34 Vorpal is unbearable, and you haven't been around long enough to fully understand his unbearability. 18:48:39 -!- MSleep has changed nick to MDude. 18:48:39 Hehe 18:48:42 Phantom_Hoover, oh shut up 18:48:53 Sqrt(-Garfield) 926 18:48:55 ok unignored 18:49:01 -_- 18:49:08 i will slow down.. 18:49:13 I love #esoteric. 18:49:16 and I think Phantom_Hoover is while not unbearable, quite close. :P 18:49:22 and he is also quite a jerk 18:49:30 (sometimes at least) 18:50:01 I think what I want is Trex 18:50:10 its not that i don't like mathematics.. its just that my knowledge of coding is way out of step with my knowledge of math 18:50:12 anyway, itidus21, if you have a reasonably modern CPU (say core 2 duo or such) and like 4 GB RAM then you can probably play most games. 18:50:20 Phantom_Hoover, am I still on your ignore list? 18:50:20 (given an upgraded GPU) 18:50:27 even though i'm not a good coder.. i'm an atrocious mathematician 18:50:37 Ngevd, no, although you're on probation until you renounce Smith. 18:50:48 Ngevd, who is this smith? 18:51:18 Matt Smith, actor of the eleventh (not counting Hammer films and audiobooks, etc) Doctor from the TV Serieses Doctor Who 18:51:27 oh haha 18:51:42 and I guess PH didn't like him 18:51:43 Ngevd: "serieses" 18:51:43 okay 18:51:45 Intel(R) Core(TM)2 CPU 6300 @ 1.86GHz 18:51:45 ... 2gb ram 18:51:47 That gets you another ignore. 18:52:05 well okay, ram is quite cheap though 18:52:08 elliott, I was emphasising the plural-ness for effect 18:52:16 Because I am a /poet/ 18:52:54 the CPU is probably at the lower end as well. 18:53:26 but I don't think Deus Ex: HR would cause much of a problem for that, you might not be able to run at max settings 18:53:51 check the official system requirements though, and note that they probably err on the side of caution to avoid pissed off customers 18:54:36 i am actually so awful at math that i can't transpose algebra expressions made up only of the alphabet of "=", "+", "*", "/", "-", "x", "^", "0", "1", "2", "3", "4", "5", "6", "7", "8", "9" 18:54:51 i can get some of them.. but the problem is i don't get all of them 18:54:57 (system requirements is not an exact science, apart from the required disk space everything is pretty hard to calculate and you can't really test on every possible configuration) 18:55:18 itidus21, try base 2, that reduces the alphabet ;P 18:55:40 thats the best way i can explain the level i'm at 18:55:55 so i try to "dodge" algebra 18:56:25 Transpose? 18:56:29 yup 18:56:38 I was wondering about that too. 18:56:40 trans as in change.. not sure about the pose 18:56:43 -!- monqy has joined. 18:56:47 rewrite 18:56:59 solve? 18:57:05 i dunno 18:57:14 find a variable :) 18:57:22 Phantom_Hoover, anyway if you don't like me why don't /you/ simply ignore me? Rather than try to get other people to do so? 18:57:35 itidus21, that's pretty damn difficult in the general case. 18:57:37 i think i mean rewrite to x=[...] 18:58:16 question: is a set of all possible strings in an alphabet of N symbols isomorphic to the set of all strings in ALL possible alphabets? 18:58:30 What. 18:58:50 wat 18:58:51 what do you mean isomorphic 18:58:57 Phantom_Hoover: but even for expressions with only 1 variable.. 18:58:59 bijective function. 18:59:04 no wait that can't be right 18:59:05 "duh" 18:59:10 maybe 2 or 3.. i dunno 18:59:14 and what do you mean all possible alphabets 18:59:18 all of them 18:59:20 >_> 18:59:28 very helpful 18:59:37 Do you mean finite strings on finite alphabets? 18:59:40 yes 18:59:45 "duh" 18:59:59 "okay" 19:00:00 ^ul (what)S 19:00:00 what 19:00:47 well I mean I know a finite string with a finite N-sized alphabet has a bijective function to any other set of finite strings with a finite M-sized alphabet. 19:01:05 but I wasn't sure if there was a bijective function from that set of strings to "all the other finite-alphabet strings ever" 19:01:34 I'm pretty sure infinite-length strings are uncountable 19:01:53 By the way, that http://i.imgur.com/pAy4z.png review that I think Deewiant linked is fake: http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/A15T4V4O8P803T/ref=cm_pdp_rev_all?ie=UTF8&sort_by=MostRecentReview :( 19:01:59 so, i am here with only an elementary knowledge of math(s) and so it's more than a little strange 19:02:29 "I modified this to fit on my oxygen tank and it ended up causing a small fire. Do not buy" "This connector is terrible. I need to connect a SATA connector to a old style molex 4 pin CD drive, but this connector does the opposite. Piece of junk and a waste of money" "I took a job that required me to make device drivers for some kind of weird thing with some blinking lights on it. I never made a driver before, but I am good at using Office and stu 19:02:29 ff so I told them I knew C++ and read a bit about it and was able to BS the interview. So I got this book and tried to understand how to make my drivers, but I couldn't and I got fired after 6 weeks. NOT RECOMMENDED for driver makers." 19:02:38 "Nothing is more fun than getting trashed and ripping around the lake on my boat. This song reminds me of that!" 19:02:44 but I guess it makes sense considering that binary can be used to represent all other strings. 19:02:46 Actually I suppose they could just be a very strange person who also apparently flies. 19:02:49 * elliott will hold out hope. 19:02:54 B. Meowsic Keyboard 19:02:55 good good 19:02:56 -!- pikhq has joined. 19:02:58 I just don't know the specific mapping 19:03:01 i didnt actually anticipate math(s) at all on the topic of esolangs.. i had gotten this far without ever encountering the theory of computation 19:03:09 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 19:03:49 itidus21: This was a place devoid of LIGHT and REASON before we all grew up and became REAL* MATHEMATICIANS* 19:03:51 *fake 19:03:53 *CS poseurs 19:03:57 Phantom_Hoover, anyway if you don't like me why don't /you/ simply ignore me? Rather than try to get other people to do so? 19:04:22 Phantom_Hoover, if you ever talk to me again I hope you answer that question :) 19:04:34 Vorpal, consider that he may be ignoring you 19:04:36 (if you don't then I will just assume you did in fact finally ignore me) 19:04:40 Vorpal: because he's better than you, obviously. 19:05:00 Ngevd, my next line took care of that possibility yes 19:05:15 kallisti, so just because someone is better than someone else they should be arrogant about it? 19:05:20 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:05:21 kallisti, that doesn't seem right to me 19:05:25 Hmm... 19:05:33 Ngevd, okay that is a third possibility 19:05:39 Maybe Edinburgh has blown up in a ball of fire 19:05:39 Vorpal: well, in #esoteric, that seems to be the rule. 19:05:55 elliott: next you will probably tell me that this is a room of novices not fit to clean the shoes of the leading guys in the field 19:05:57 or...... 19:05:59 kallisti, anyway I don't think he is better than me. Better at some topics, sure. Worse at other ones probably. 19:06:06 Vorpal: well I didn't really mean that... 19:06:06 are the so called leading guys in the field the ones with the biggest supercomputers 19:06:15 it was kind of not totally serious. I don't have a metric with which to value the worth of human beings. 19:06:17 kallisti, but I don't think a person can be intrinsically better than another one 19:07:04 kallisti, fair enough, but I think the implications of it being taken seriously are worth considering 19:07:11 eh.. im trolling at this point 19:07:14 Vorpal: yes that was kind of my point. 19:07:16 itidus21, :) 19:07:55 the way i see it.. you can tell what the state of the art is by what the general populace has access to 19:07:58 are the so called leading guys in the field the ones with the biggest supercomputers <-- not really no. Supercomputers aren't required for esolangs 19:08:42 the way i see it.. you can tell what the state of the art is by what the general populace has access to <-- for what? Computers? 19:08:43 Esolangs are more of an art than a mathsy thing 19:08:43 Phantom_Hoover, if you ever talk to me again I hope you answer that question :) 19:08:43 i don't think that the esoteric knowledge held by military mad scientists really is very practical 19:09:06 elliott, well obviously if he timed out I will agree he didn't receive it 19:09:08 killing people is practical. 19:09:10 Vorpal: You really need to stop using :) like that all the time, it gets tired even quicker than usual when you do it all the time. 19:09:22 elliott: :) 19:09:29 kallisti, indeed :) 19:09:33 kallisti: I thought you were ignoring me. 19:09:42 he totally should 19:09:45 (not really) 19:09:51 Yes, he should. 19:09:56 oh? 19:10:04 basically, i think if most people don't have access to it then it can be ignored 19:10:17 what is access 19:10:27 monqy: monqy denied access to the meaning of access. 19:10:29 itidus21, very much depend on what you are trying to accomplish. 19:10:36 monqy: im sure bill gates has a secret tech room 19:10:44 where he has billion$ toys 19:10:48 i too have a secret tech room 19:10:53 anyway I need to sleep. Exam tomorrow. Computer graphics. Quite a fun topic. 19:11:19 -!- roper has joined. 19:11:36 `welcome roper 19:11:41 roper: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page 19:11:53 guelcon 19:11:57 hi 19:12:13 hm 19:12:15 low 19:12:29 what are the chances of me learning group theory in a topology class? 19:12:58 Mathematical or geographic topology? 19:12:59 0/0 19:13:06 maths 19:13:12 roper: ah good 19:13:27 :) 19:13:29 that's basically "I don't know" 19:13:36 I reckon roper's actually slightly further ahead in time to us 19:13:48 oopoo 19:13:50 roper> low 19:13:59 roper lives in bizarro world 19:14:06 :) 19:14:18 car 19:14:27 yes 19:14:50 no car 19:14:54 no yes 19:14:55 :( 19:15:04 cdr 19:15:11 flac 19:15:16 calf 19:15:20 midi 19:15:20 moo 19:15:28 unknown 19:15:32 undef 19:15:37 redef 19:15:45 Er... fed? 19:15:52 feed 19:16:12 beef 19:16:17 blessed hashref of blessed globrefs 19:16:29 too much 19:16:35 Not enough!!! 19:16:37 never enough 19:16:39 !!! 19:16:41 ! 19:16:42 !!!!!! 19:16:45 nevermind 19:16:50 > repeat '!' 19:16:51 "!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!... 19:17:03 always mind 19:17:06 % 19:17:07 monqy motto 19:17:14 5 19:17:22 true. 19:17:27 that's numberwang! 19:17:34 !numberwang 5 19:17:37 That's numberwang! 19:17:46 well 19:17:47 roper: i just want to clarify this is the room of esoteric computer programming languages, not occult esoteric 19:17:54 wrong its super occult 19:17:59 supermax occult++ full 19:18:08 ioihgfdddf 19:18:11 you may know this im just making doubly clear so your time is not wasted 19:18:21 too much 19:18:27 `addquote ioihgfdddf 19:18:30 800) ioihgfdddf 19:18:31 good 19:18:32 rephtrase 19:18:35 best 800 quote 19:18:41 `addquote rephtrase 19:18:46 801) rephtrase 19:18:47 best 801 quote 19:18:52 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 19:18:57 listen 19:19:00 ok 19:19:01 ok 19:19:07 we should 19:19:10 ok 19:19:12 ^ul (~:S~:^)(!):S~:^ 19:19:12 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ...too much output! 19:19:14 implement 19:19:17 ok 19:19:17 yes 19:19:23 we should implement 19:19:23 yes 19:19:26 yes ok 19:19:30 good good 19:19:32 yes 19:19:38 a language _ 19:19:45 perl JIT yes 19:19:47 brilliant 19:19:53 outstanding 19:20:02 standoutish 19:20:06 ok 19:20:09 autotopoptimised 19:20:21 Auto top optimised? 19:20:22 I'm agree. 19:20:27 ues 19:20:28 I'm angree 19:20:30 y 19:20:39 -n 19:20:41 well 19:20:48 ues i think 19:20:59 "yes" is probably what you want 19:21:05 y 19:21:09 :) 19:21:15 Ngevd: nh 19:21:24 ues si ues 19:21:29 kgvjl 19:21:34 sumamoito is the most inrfficient 19:21:44 lol 19:21:53 build -O 19:21:54 oh no 19:21:58 mount kilimanjaro 19:21:58 we must 19:22:01 refficientise it 19:22:05 i mean 19:22:08 Atrapado? 19:22:08 sure 19:22:09 rfficientise it 19:22:13 yes 19:22:28 yres 19:22:42 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/w/index.php?title=Vowels&curid=4086&diff=26989&oldid=24085 19:22:45 on screen keyvoard 19:22:50 elliott: So how'd the SMT'ing go 19:22:50 Ngevd: ayudame! 19:22:51 new vowels for new breakfast homesteads 19:23:10 sorry 19:23:17 Deewiant: It got into some kind of loop; I think my gcd definition was wrong or something 19:23:21 Maybe I'll look at it some more tomorrow 19:23:25 battery: 15 19:23:48 SMT? 19:23:49 vowels looks cool 19:23:53 i have some optimizations alteady 19:24:09 Ngevd: so many terraces 19:24:19 like add on hardware 19:24:27 In an esoteric programming language, optimization is not recommended 19:24:29 (satisfiability modulo theories) 19:24:37 Ngevd: I am completely disagree 19:24:56 I am completely disangree 19:24:58 yrs but we ned tine final implementation 19:25:09 ^tune 19:25:10 :D 19:25:14 Well, adding on of features to make shorter source code beyond what is necessary for Turing-completeness 19:25:14 sorry 19:25:16 :) 19:25:19 Unless you're befunge 19:25:23 Ngevd: nope wrong 19:25:38 perl best esolang fro example 19:25:38 I have controversial opinions 19:25:43 source code unchanged 19:25:43 Ngevd: you're discussing tarpits there 19:25:47 not all esolangs are tarpits 19:25:47 True 19:25:53 im houses 19:26:08 but most of the better ones are, because good esolangs are there to convey a new idea, and a tarpit's usually the clearest way to do that 19:26:11 best fro example 19:26:14 SumaMoito is, however, a tarpit 19:26:22 "SumaMoito is a family of languages that aims to include minimal Turing-complete languages with a particular style." 19:26:27 ais523: Haskell isn't very tarpitty. maybe in Core. 19:26:27 3 tarpits, rather 19:26:37 ais523: and also conveys some new ideas. 19:26:41 eg hardware-add Ă·Ă· sumamoito add 19:26:50 ais523: well... hmmm 19:26:51 maybe not. 19:26:58 '/'/'/'''''''''/ 19:27:03 hmm, are any of the main ideas in Haskell new in Haskell? I thought Haskell was busy codifying them and using them well, not inventing them 19:27:12 probably. 19:27:17 I don't know where they originate, except for ML. 19:27:22 and lambda calculus 19:27:38 collapde-afd 19:27:39 FORTRAN 19:27:46 Haskell is kind of a synthesis of already existing ideas, I guess. 19:28:03 IIRC the reason Haskell was invented was that so many people were trying to make lazy functional langs all at once 19:28:06 and they decided to join forces 19:28:06 Ngevd: yes, Haskell is based on FORTRAN 19:28:06 not really 19:28:09 yeah what ais523 said 19:28:18 (not sure if "pure" was in there from the start, or added later) 19:28:25 basically pure non-strict languages were just coming into existence 19:28:32 and everyone had their own dialect 19:28:37 there was miranda and i think lazy ml etc. 19:28:37 sumamoito add is on hardware add is slightly more than ologn 19:28:42 thus the haskell committee 19:28:57 elliott: I'm actually thinking that we need a pure total functional language 19:28:58 mm 19:29:04 ais523: the typeclass system is a haskell innovation though I think 19:29:10 maybe with the ability to use partiality under controlled circumstances 19:29:16 and probably Haskell's most prominent added feature 19:29:20 ais523: meh, that already exists 19:29:28 sure, total languages can't express anything, but the things they can they're better for 19:29:40 yeah yeah 19:30:05 transform languahe features to match hardware fearures 19:30:07 and if a language is both total and pure, evaluation strategy is irrelevant 19:30:17 you can use call-by-telephone and it still works just fine 19:30:23 interestingly, some definitions of weak typing count ad-hoc polymorphism as weak typing. 19:30:28 :) 19:30:31 ais523: i'm not sure whether you think you're stating non-obvious things or not :P 19:30:56 elliott: I think it's obvious, and yet people don't care about it anyway 19:31:11 sure they do 19:31:16 roper: yes compilers that compile to machine languages are good at that. 19:31:27 yes 19:31:43 but collapse all language features? 19:31:50 ais523: what about call-by-nothing evaluation? 19:31:56 where you do nothing isntead of evaluate. 19:31:57 ais523: Did you settle on whether Funge-98 is an esolang? 19:32:01 we nedd an uncollapsed language 19:32:14 Deewiant: I think it isn't, but I also think I can't justify my claim in terms that other people will understand 19:32:19 so I'm not going to bother trying to argue the point 19:32:21 roper: depends on what you mean by collapse 19:32:37 ais523: Fair enough I guess. 19:32:41 reduce to hardware operations 19:32:42 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 19:32:45 roper: compiling a language doesn't remove its features, it just implements them a certain way. 19:32:58 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 19:32:59 i wonder what he has in mind 19:33:02 sure$ 19:33:11 ais523: I think Funge-98 is an esolang, FWIW (and I don't think it's particularly esoteric myself). 19:33:24 What's the definition of an esolang you generally use? 19:33:37 Deewiant: Who, me or ais523? 19:33:47 Deewiant: a language for which writing a fully-featured standard library would be a waste of time 19:33:54 elliott: Both, I think, which is why I didn't address it. 19:34:00 ais523: Terrible definition IMO 19:34:03 line wrap not allowed. q 19:34:13 hwat 19:34:14 q 19:34:16 a language for which defining what esolang means would be a waste of time. 19:34:19 elliott: or, not so much waste of time, but people not thinking it's necessary 19:34:38 40 chars 19:34:46 kimit 19:35:00 ais523: So basically "a language which is hardly used at all, or only used as a joke" or something thereabout? 19:35:00 A language designed to entertain rather than to be used for any practical task is my definition 19:35:18 Deewiant: Well, obviously idiosyncrasy relative to the generalised status quo factors into it, as well as novelty and generally not being optimised for /use/ in design -- but the main factor I use is authorial intent, because it's inherently subjective and there are good reasons for going by it. 19:35:20 what if its a language designed for only 1 user? 19:35:28 o am drinking water 19:35:34 I think entirely made-for-practical-use languages can be esolangs too, e.g. bancstar 19:35:42 battery 14 19:35:44 elliott: but I declare every language I invent an esolang, regardless of what it's for 19:35:47 Deewiant: e.g., Ursula, however weird it is by any metric, is not an esolang, because it was not intended as an esolang, and because it was designed for being used 19:35:49 hmm, would you consider OIL an esolang? 19:35:51 but of course it's a kind of failure for a practical language to get that status 19:35:54 to me, it's just a DSL 19:36:05 whats a DSL? 19:36:12 and ursala! 19:36:26 ais523: (a) Intent isn't quite declaration, and I don't necessarily take declarations I think are unreliable at face value. (b) I know barely nothing about OIL. 19:36:29 itidus21: domain-specific language 19:36:36 hmm, those could be called "accidental esolangs" perhaps? 19:36:53 elliott: http://c.intercal.org.uk/manual/dlbvn76f.htm#Optimizer-Idiom-Language 19:37:02 Deewiant: But Befunge-98 is, both for reasons of idiosyncrasy (its syntax and very oddball tied-to-syntax control structure), and very clear intent of esoteric nature. 19:37:03 it's a language invented for the purpose of implementing INTERCAL optimisers 19:37:11 it's pretty good at that, and really bad at anything else 19:37:13 Even if Befunge-98 is nicer to program in than Ursula. 19:37:22 esolangs are languages that make defining what esolang means difficult. 19:37:42 elliott: that's the kind of definition I'd use as well. 19:37:45 wesay this is equivalent to 19:37:52 ais523: Glancing at it and combining with what I know, I wouldn't say it's an esolang, but I'd say it's clearly intended to be fairly weird. 19:38:00 and we optimisr to 19:38:36 * kallisti has seen some people claim that C is an esolang. 19:38:38 Deewiant: Another good reason to go by what the author says is that it avoids offending authors of serious languages when you call their work something with the connotations esolang has, and avoids offending authors of esolangs when you dare to suggest their work doesn't meet the criteria :P 19:38:40 like 19:38:41 also Haskell. 19:38:54 dgffgg %% add 19:38:57 elliott: Heh, yes. 19:38:58 People like to say "lolololol is an esolang". 19:38:59 then 19:39:02 Especially Perl, Java, etc. 19:39:05 But that's just noise. 19:39:07 I first encountered Haskell on this channel 19:39:15 we transform things to dgffgg 19:39:19 elliott: I might say that "not being optimised for /use/ in design" counts as authorial intent, though. 19:39:22 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:39:28 As long as that includes all kinds of use. 19:39:32 !languages 19:39:41 :$ 19:39:43 Err, 19:39:44 !help languages 19:39:45 ​languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh. 19:39:48 -!- sebbu has joined. 19:39:48 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 19:39:48 -!- sebbu has joined. 19:39:50 Deewiant: True, but I meant more direct intent; e.g. putting something on esolangs.org, or obvious presentation of the language as a serious tool on a website. 19:39:51 elliott: so would you say LOLCODE is intended to be an esolang? 19:39:55 ^^^ Herp durp I call non-esolagns eso too 19:39:56 E.g. BANCStar is not an esolang, it's just an ASCII encoding of something that people have evidently unfortunately programmed in. 19:40:02 I can't believe its authors had heard of esolangs, otherwise they wouldn't have invented something so banal 19:40:14 Deewiant: BANCStar's basically an asm 19:40:18 just an insane one 19:40:18 ais523: I don't think the inventors of LOLCODE are competent enough to intend one way or another. 19:40:24 ais523: Yes. 19:40:30 elliott: that's pretty much my argument 19:40:34 ais523: But I definitely recall the author didn't know of esolangs. 19:40:40 for Gregor an esolang is any language that's not C, assembly, C, cxx (???), forth, or sh 19:40:48 also C 19:40:53 gah: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Vowels 19:40:55 LOLCODE probably is an esolang based on its sliver of silly syntax, but it's a really bad one. 19:40:55 I would say that LOLCODE is intended as an esolang. 19:41:17 Even if the author(s) didn't know the term or other such languages, it's clearly got a similar intent. 19:41:26 ^ul ((!)S:^):^ it's the age of minimalism, simplify! 19:41:26 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ...too much output! 19:41:30 Deewiant: BANCStar is sort of an honorary esolang, in that it doesn't really count as one, but who the hell else is going to take it under their wing? 19:41:34 the category of languages that includes Vowels was done better by Sorted! 19:41:41 which will probably never be beaten in that category 19:42:03 elliott: It's just an assembly language, IMO. 19:42:17 Deewiant: Yeah, it's more of a community sense in which it counts as one than a language sense :P 19:42:19 you'd probably discover that x86 microcode is just as insane 19:42:26 Deewiant: It lacks the mnemonics to be an assembly language, though, I think. 19:42:29 or, hmm, it probably differs between manufacturers 19:42:31 but you know what I mean 19:42:34 esolangs are languages that are members of the set of esolangs. 19:42:38 elliott: Then you can call it an ASCII-encoded object format. 19:42:45 glue language 19:42:52 lol gluethon 19:42:54 Anyway, I don't really care all that much whether something is an esolang or not; the main thing it's relevant for is to know how to categorise articles on the wiki. 19:43:29 "Sorted! is bilingual. It can understand both english and german code. To my knowledge, Sorted! is the only programming language that can do this, in the world." <--- someone should mention INTERCAL 19:43:33 (English/Latin) 19:43:50 a sumamoito loop is optimised by some add 19:43:52 Gregor: What's EgoBot's '!forth', gforth? 19:43:54 If "the wiki" is the esolang wiki, then isn't being on the wiki something that makes it an esolang? :-P Except for joke articles like Perl (which should be categorized as a joke article or equivalent). 19:44:11 nnested 19:44:32 unnested 19:44:38 ununested 19:44:41 uunnested 19:44:47 uuencoded 19:44:51 Deewiant: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Forth 19:44:57 fizzie: Yeah, gforth. 19:45:16 Deewiant: The question of whether only esolangs can be articles has been brought up before; there's consensus that the wiki is for articles of relevant interest to esoteric programmers. 19:45:28 Deewiant: That includes oddball things like Joy and whatnot. 19:45:33 elliott: I'd have a "category: non-esoteric", then. 19:45:36 !forth gforth type 19:45:37 ​\ in file included from *OS command line*:-1 \ /tmp/input.1112:1: Undefined word \ >>>gforth<<< type \ Backtrace: \ $7F2761A86A68 throw \ $7F2761A9CCE0 no.extensions \ $7F2761A86D28 interpreter-notfound1 19:45:41 Hmm. 19:45:47 Also http://esolangs.org/wiki/Chalcraft-Greene_train_track_automaton. 19:45:54 Deewiant: Negated categories? Nah. 19:46:01 Deewiant: [[Category:Not 1999]] 19:46:04 i dont understand how befunge98 could possibly not be esoteric 19:46:18 elliott: Well, "category: esoteric" would be fine as well, just more work to keep up-to-date. :-P 19:46:33 And also seemingly redundant with the topic of the site. 19:46:33 Deewiant: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Languages 19:46:45 It would be nice to be able ot perform boolan operations on categories in wikis. 19:46:47 elliott: That doesn't say "esoteric languages". 19:46:52 elliott: Forth is a language. 19:46:59 Deewiant: Yes, but it's only for esolangs, just like Forth was misplaced in [[Category:Before 1993]]. 19:47:12 Adding "esoteric" to everything would be too many words. :p 19:47:22 battry 13 19:47:35 !forth hi 19:47:36 ​\ in file included from *OS command line*:-1 \ /tmp/input.1367:1: Undefined word \ >>>hi<<< \ Backtrace: \ $7FF11B654A68 throw \ $7FF11B66ACE0 no.extensions \ $7FF11B654D28 interpreter-notfound1 19:47:36 elliott: Put it in the description of that category, then. :-P 19:48:07 here is my question for you.. would you pay someone a salary to code in befunge98? 19:48:14 fsvo you 19:48:17 I'd do it but I can't be bothered to make a wiki account just for that, and I don't want to do it anonymously. 19:48:48 Deewiant: Yeah, if you did it anonymously your vital contribution of "Esoteric" would be lost to the sands of time. 19:49:00 It might even not end up on your tombstone. 19:49:04 HERE LIES DEEWIANT 19:49:06 "ESOTERIC" 19:49:14 i only need bread and water 19:49:24 elliott: Something like that, yes. 19:49:26 Actually "ESOTERIC" would be a badass epitaph. 19:49:29 !forth : gfv s" gforth" environment? if type then ; gfv 19:49:30 0.7.0 19:49:33 Okay, right. 19:49:35 Not epitaph. 19:49:37 Is it epitaph? 19:49:48 Deewiant: Anyway, maybe tomorrow. 19:49:53 There should be more esolang collabs 19:50:03 abcdef 19:50:09 (Didn't notice it was an environment-query thing and not a word.) 19:50:14 abcdef...g 19:50:47 elliott: What's happening today? 19:51:17 the end of the world approaches 19:51:25 Deewiant: I'm tired. 19:51:26 rip future world 19:51:29 And lazy. 19:51:57 1 second per second 19:52:04 oh no 19:52:18 no exit 19:52:24 :( 19:52:35 quantum language 19:52:38 RIP future world ,~ESOTERIC~` 19:52:42 roper: hi 19:52:51 hi elliott 19:52:54 elliott: Want to tell me about the bleeding edge when it comes to testing C libraries? Anything QuickCheck-like for C? Is TAP still the harness of choice? 19:53:08 Why do we travel through time at 1 second per second?, page 1 http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread551324/pg1 19:53:11 !forth s" gforth" environment? [if] type [then] \ simplify! 19:53:12 0.7.0 19:53:23 Deewiant: You're picking me due to my inexperience, right? 19:53:34 Deewiant: Something like QuickCheck seems ill-suited to C. 19:53:38 Not many C functions are pure. 19:53:42 Fuzz testing seems like the closest thing. 19:53:46 (Now it doesn't need to be in a separate dummy word just because if is a compile-only word.) 19:54:04 fizzie: Now implement Befunge. 19:54:22 elliott: I have a gforth interpreter (for -93) already, but it won't fit on one line. 19:54:23 Wow, TAP dates back to 1987. 19:54:31 fizzie: Yes, that's why you have to do it again. 19:54:32 Also -98. 19:54:37 (Also EgoBot takes URLs.) 19:54:46 Fuzz testing is pretty much the same thing. 19:54:48 It probably has bitrotted away anyway. 19:54:48 Deewiant: Oh! There's Falderal. :) 19:55:04 (http://catseye.tc/projects/falderal/) 19:55:07 Also it asks for which file to load. But maybe I could hardcore an interesting Befunge-93 program in. Are there any? 19:55:21 I'm just wondering about good software for doing it, not just "cat /dev/random | test program". 19:55:53 Man, be.fs is like the worstest. The 2003 fizzie should be shot. 19:56:14 fizzie: He was cool!!! he used lowercase 19:56:28 I can see that, all the comments in this are in lowercase. 19:56:55 Deewiant: I bet you're not even *considering* Falderal. :p 19:57:15 elliott: "doctests for DSLs" isn't really what I'm after. :-P 19:57:37 Deewiant: Well, you could make it more-or-less work like TAP except slightly awkwarder. :p 19:58:20 So, extra work to do something in an awkwarder way than an alternative... I'm not considering it any more now, at least. 19:58:43 Deewiant: Has anyone ever told you you're BOERING? 19:59:14 elliott: Hey, you could be my fuzzer. Write me a battery of Funge-Space tests. 19:59:49 Deewiant: Okay. 20:00:00 Deewiant: I'm not entirely sure how you would fuzz-test a fungespace. 20:00:22 Neither am I. 20:01:17 Deewiant: I'm not entirely sure how you would test a fungespace. I guess you could do read string -> do operations -> check string-rendered result, but... 20:01:37 Deewiant: You should prove it correct. 20:02:17 I was thinking along the lines of doing random writes, some of which come as groups forming patterns (so it's not just individual writes all over the place), and pairing each write with a read, which need not come immediately after the write (again random), as long as all writes are paired with a read. (Overlapping writes should discard the previous read somehow, or something.) 20:02:55 precise 20:03:33 Deewiant: Too much structure; I'd do load random string -> do random write operations -> render to string -> check against trivial (slow) ref impl. 20:03:38 Deewiant: I mean, the rendering part will already test the reading operations. 20:03:45 Also that's easier. 20:04:28 It needs some structure or it won't catch some things that could be wrong. :-P (And have been wrong, in CCBI's implementation.) 20:04:39 hmm, so someone should make the funge spec executable 20:05:31 Deewiant: What could that miss? I mean, with enough samples... 20:05:36 olsner: They did. 20:05:39 olsner: It's called Mycology. 20:05:40 meh 20:06:14 elliott: Well, depends on how you do the randomness. Is it "generate three 32-bit integers and write the third to the coordinates specified by the first two"? :-P 20:06:58 can I define to- hardware optimization? 20:06:59 Deewiant: That, a few thousand times. Except probably restrict the range so you're likely to hit the pre-initialised data. 20:07:06 lidten 20:07:10 I suppose that doesn't test for things like possible overflow, but you could do "edge" tests separately. 20:07:22 battery 12 20:07:39 elliott: I guess one could generate a random offset to load the original data to. 20:07:57 Which could then be biased to be near the edges at least some of the time. 20:08:16 Deewiant: Man, who even cares, just release the damn thing already. 20:08:20 assign a name for each hardware operation 20:08:31 Deewiant: Statistical models of fungespace write/read behaviour learned from some of the high-profile mission-critical large-scale Befunge programs (the sort of stuff eBay, facebook, Google use), then used to generate streams of operations. 20:08:50 assing some or more codes for each name 20:08:54 fizzie: *Facebook 20:09:04 It's only "facebook" in the logotype. 20:09:08 elliott: I confused it with fREenODE, sorry. 20:09:11 transform from/to them and other 20:09:12 . 20:09:24 Freen Ode. 20:09:31 ode to freen 20:09:32 ooooo 20:09:37 Ode to nerf-E. 20:09:52 roper: How drunk are you? 20:09:59 hehe 0 20:10:14 me too 20:10:15 elliott: But anyway, the kind of stuff that wouldn't catch is e.g. "write to x, x+8, x+16, and now read x+8" (something similar to this was broken in CCBI once; not this simplest case, I think, but closely similar). 20:10:20 On a scale from -10 to 0. 20:10:20 battery 10 20:10:31 Deewiant: Sure it would; x+8 would be read in the ->string conversion. 20:10:40 ) 20:10:51 one day i hope to be negative drunk 20:10:56 elliott: But that precise sequence of writes? 20:11:00 monqy: Knurd is the term. 20:11:03 that is acid 20:11:06 Deewiant: Well, it's fuzz testing. 20:11:13 Deewiant: There's no intelligent design. 20:11:35 Deewiant: Anyway, just work on sufficiently small fungespaces that you can exhaust a lot of the searchspaces? e.g. Doing something over 2^32 coordinates is easy. 20:11:35 pur one, elliot 20:12:00 battery 9a 20:12:33 a %% almost-from-top 20:13:02 "optomized" 20:13:03 elliott: I suppose I can resign and leave the possibility that a lot of special cases will be broken at release. :-P 20:13:16 :) 20:13:42 it would be interesting to implement a fungespace on something that's far more parallel than a traditional CPU 20:13:46 like a GPU perhaps? 20:14:26 That wouldn't really be interesting. 20:14:33 You don't really access them concurrently. 20:15:09 hmm, right. 20:15:12 but you could. 20:15:22 Except with ATHR, I guess. 20:15:42 ("in ATHR": the new "in Feather"?) 20:16:39 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:17:04 Deewiant: It has the sibling "in NSCK" for anything networking-related. 20:17:21 battery 8a 20:17:46 fizzie: I'll have to remember that one. 20:18:18 roper: maybe you should charge 20:18:24 ; optomize your battery% 20:18:30 What is a WA game style doing here? 20:18:31 no, I wont until off 20:18:36 :) 20:18:38 but then it will off 20:18:44 sure 20:18:49 and me sleep 20:19:04 what about all the poor datas 20:19:05 Sgeo: Ropers date back to Worms 2, you uncultured plebeian. 20:19:23 I hope they will stay 20:19:33 * Sgeo installs Hedgewars due to not having his WA.iso handy 20:19:55 it is an android 20:20:09 anananandroid 20:20:10 Deewiant: It's like how fungot will do IPv6, server names instead of just IP, and HTTP requests "in NSCK". (Never mind most of those aren't actually NSCK-dependant at all, except the IPv6 thing.) 20:20:11 fizzie: i fully endorse the proposal for a new com in the fruit and vegetable sector is the one area where europe can play an important role to play in relation to the content of his speech. will the commissioner hold new talks with the sudanese government. i hope that before they join. it is against that background it is totally disgraceful to claim that the court has given updated information on its application. 20:20:20 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:20:48 :/ 20:20:59 fizzie: You should make a BABL to accelerate babble-generation. 20:21:06 Bonus: Tower of Babel allusion. 20:21:13 mikmod 20:21:38 The module player library? 20:22:51 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:22:56 Yes 20:23:12 elliott: How about benchmarks, what's "criterion for C"? 20:23:15 I seem to recall that some MikMod's XM effects were a bit dubiously implemented. 20:23:15 I assume hedgewars uses modules for music 20:23:29 Deewiant: You know the great thing about Haskell? 20:23:35 Deewiant: All those wonderful tools you don't get with C. 20:23:58 (And vice versa.) 20:24:07 It's a bit shaky 20:24:11 (The music) 20:24:23 Sgeo: How retro. Also fmod would have more street cred. (And a worse license.) 20:24:46 I think fmod is by scenesters. 20:24:51 Deewiant: Anyway, just write your own thing or whatever. 20:25:06 I don't think C people "outsource" such "trivial" things. 20:25:13 Firk ding blast. 20:25:23 They seem far more businessy than what they did. 20:25:40 -!- augur has joined. 20:25:43 It's true that C programmers tend to be far too NIH-y. 20:26:08 Anyway, they've got that minifmod thing that does XM playback in 5k, they must have *some* intro background. 20:26:10 Deewiant: Well, the language kind of forces you to. 20:26:21 Deewiant: There's not really much in the way of abstraction. :p 20:26:55 It doesn't force you to, it just makes it a bit tricky to not. 20:28:01 Deewiant: Well, you have to resort to cpp for anything beyond the most basic abstraction. 20:28:11 Deewiant: Which gives you all the abstractional power of raw text substitution. 20:28:18 But oh well, I guess NIH + ministat is the way to go. 20:29:31 What's ministat? 20:29:36 https://github.com/codemac/ministat 20:29:57 Deewiant: So cheating. 20:30:03 entanglement 20:30:05 Got a better idea? 20:30:11 Deewiant: Write yer own!!!! 20:30:20 Be sure to replicate it feature-for-feature. 20:30:54 Deewiant: Confidence intervals are like so bourgeoisie. (And frequentist!) 20:31:23 * elliott tries to figure out why GArrow doesn't include ga_swap. 20:33:42 always had to code it 20:34:03 -!- MSleep has joined. 20:34:12 fizzie: Bourgeoisie Funge-98 software since 2007. 20:35:29 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:36:24 Deewiant: You know what they say, can't spell Funge-98 without Bayes' theorem. 20:36:29 Unless you're DEEWIANT. 20:37:06 Er, shouldn't that be that you /can/ spell it without it unless you're Deewiant? 20:37:30 No; being a frequentist, you obviously somehow spell it without. 20:39:40 What fizzie said. 20:39:52 Which is a PERVERSE ABOMINATION. 20:39:58 PERVBOMINATION. 20:41:16 Well, I don't think I can come up with a prior for the speed of my Funge-Space. 20:41:24 when do you expect we talk in binary? 20:41:30 R'lyeh standard time. I wonder what that would be like <-- enough time for death to die 20:41:38 will+ 20:41:53 Deewiant: Then you will use an uninformative prior. 20:42:01 2013? 20:43:48 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:44:56 -!- augur has joined. 20:45:02 pull and wait 20:45:33 push and wait 20:45:41 pull push 20:45:45 01 20:47:27 0110 20:48:16 01%%10 20:48:40 0+0%%00 20:48:47 hi 20:48:57 1+1%%11 20:48:58 Deewiant: "So fast". 20:49:58 so pppqqq%%010101 20:50:40 elliott: Shush, I want to observe this in peace. 20:51:13 %% means interchangeable 20:51:34 Deewiant: What, roper or your funge-space? 20:51:44 + means concatenation 20:51:45 Hello! 20:51:46 elliott: roper. 20:52:01 :) 20:52:14 well that is almost all 20:52:30 ask anything 20:53:01 battery 7a 20:53:44 that may serve for optimisation 20:53:49 replace 20:54:14 from ffaster to slower or viceversa 20:54:51 may need to go slower before faster 20:55:07 in the chain 20:55:37 it may inviolve mathnythinfg 20:55:47 :) 20:56:13 -!- MSleep has changed nick to MDude. 20:56:25 -!- oerjan has set topic: I'm not a number, I'm a free cheese grater | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 20:58:27 double+doube%%quad 20:58:38 l 20:58:53 quadruplicate 21:00:45 inc a + inc a + dec a %% inc a 21:00:59 system() should be called shell() because that's what it does. 21:01:01 -!- Patashu has joined. 21:02:09 Deewiant: What, in C? 21:02:23 Yep. 21:02:36 Deewiant: No it doesn't. 21:02:44 Deewiant: You're a terrible DS9K thinker. 21:03:02 Deewiant: It should be called commandprocessor(). 21:03:20 "shell" is the max-6-letter equivalent of "commandprocessor". 21:03:48 But these are the days of max-31-letter names. 21:03:51 Deewiant: system() just does something completely unspecified, so "system" seems like a good name for it. 21:03:55 It calls out to the system, somehow. 21:04:03 elliott: It passes the string to a command processor. 21:04:18 Is that defined? 21:04:20 "system" makes me think of system calls. 21:04:25 That is how it's defined. 21:04:36 Fair enough. 21:04:48 "the system function passes the string pointed to by string to that command processor to be executed in a manner which the implementation shall document". 21:04:51 If string is not a null pointer, the system function passes the string pointed to by string to that command processor to be 21:04:54 executed in a manner which the implementation shall document; this might then cause the 21:04:58 program calling system to behave in a non-conforming manner or to terminate. 21:05:04 I like the warning. 21:05:13 battery 6a 21:05:32 Also I wonder how many times system(NULL) has been used. 21:05:47 Unaccidentally, anyway. 21:06:25 When my C compiler starts needing a library, I'll make sure that that library's system() calls abort() if system(NULL) hasn't been called first. 21:07:58 Will you also give system(NULL) a 10% chance to return 0 just to test that the programs are robust in handling the "no command processor" case? 21:08:02 battery 5a 21:08:52 fizzie: Nah; I trust that if they check it, they do so properly. :-P 21:09:06 battery 4a 21:12:59 battery 3a 21:13:34 battery 2a 21:15:20 battery 1a 21:17:32 on the DeathStar 9000, system() of course blows up a star system. 21:17:36 batterya 21:18:47 rip 21:18:55 almost 21:19:02 1% 21:21:28 -!- roper has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:21:43 I can't tell whether he's avant-garde or just stupid. 21:21:45 Thus ends roper. 21:22:01 The ropening: a saga for the ages. 21:22:29 Maybe he was a robot slowly deteriorating as he runs out of power, a million miles from Earth. 21:22:32 Only IRC to keep him company. 21:23:11 `frink 1000000 miles -> c s 21:23:24 804672000/149896229 (approx. 5.368193752225748) 21:23:40 i guess we've had worse lag than that 21:26:13 his ip hinted spain 21:26:41 His server hinted USA 21:26:54 oh 21:27:12 Maybe he was in the Spanish Embassy in New York? 21:27:14 i see >.> 21:27:20 im not good at irc 21:27:52 itidus21: His IP is the more relevant info, you can obviously connect to any server you want. :-P 21:27:53 Deewiant: um servers are frequently assigned randomly? 21:28:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 21:28:24 bijective function. 21:28:25 oerjan: I guess they are, if you just connect to irc.freenode.net or whatever. 21:28:42 BtW, this is never what 'isomorphic' means. 21:28:46 atrapado also suggests spanish 21:28:50 But why would you not connect to irc.eu.freenode.net or some such continentally appropriate name. 21:29:19 An isomorphism is a bijection which also preserves structure in some way, at least in all the examples I've seen. 21:29:24 19:01:34: I'm pretty sure infinite-length strings are uncountable 21:29:28 Sorry, chat.eu.freenode.net. 21:29:34 I just connect to the specific server I want and then when irssi auto-reconnects it goes to some random place if that server's down, I think. 21:29:38 Phantom_Hoover: except in the category of Set, you uncouth illiterate 21:29:46 Phantom_Hoover: define "preserves structure" 21:29:53 oerjan: *illiterate fuck is standard terminology tyvm. 21:29:58 Deewiant: Yes, it converts 32 random bits into an IPv4 address and goes there. 21:30:02 oerjan, who the hell uses isomorphisms in Set. 21:30:13 fizzie: That's what it seems like. 21:30:17 elliott: i was a bit confused after what i saw in the log, was it uncouth plebeian? 21:30:18 kallisti, it varies. 21:30:35 * oerjan only looked at some of the logs today 21:30:37 oerjan: That is also acceptable when you want to SHAKE THINGS UP A BIT and can't quite bring yourself to swear at Ngevd. 21:30:40 For groups, it means that f(x*y) = f(x)*f(y). 21:30:52 I seem to have lindbohm.freenode.net and chat.eu.freenode.net listed. 21:31:01 oerjan: You've been accused of espionage in the logs. HTH. 21:31:02 Illiterate DARN. 21:31:05 -!- NihilistDandy has joined. 21:31:14 oerjan: I guess if the recipient is illiterate it doesn't matter what words you use. 21:32:01 For graphs, it means that edges and nodes stay attached. 21:32:09 But why would you not connect to irc.eu.freenode.net or some such continentally appropriate name. <-- erm irc.freenode.net is in the irssi default list (and still what i connect to if my main norwegian server doesn't work) 21:32:19 Phantom_Hoover: ah okay. 21:32:28 C'moon. C'mon SO. Two upvotes in two and a half hours. 21:32:29 oerjan: But you might end up in the Americas! They might shoot you! 21:32:30 You can do it for me. 21:32:36 Let me breach 6,800 today. 21:32:58 (They shoot people there.) 21:33:02 half 21:33:07 Oops. 21:33:07 19:01:34: I'm pretty sure infinite-length strings are uncountable 21:33:11 Yes, they are. 21:33:14 Yes, they shoot them IN HALF. 21:33:34 I saw a MythBusters show about that. (Or I guess it maybe was a tree.) 21:33:41 `addquote I saw a MythBusters show about that. (Or I guess it maybe was a tree.) 21:33:44 If you shoot them in half, they stay infinite. 21:33:45 802) I saw a MythBusters show about that. (Or I guess it maybe was a tree.) 21:34:12 oerjan: Have you seen our perfect quotes: 21:34:14 `quote 800 21:34:14 `quote 801 21:34:17 800) ioihgfdddf 21:34:38 The mysterious quote 801. 21:34:45 `quote 801 21:34:49 801) rephtrase 21:35:19 oerjan: You've been accused of espionage in the logs. HTH. <-- i saw that. didn't quite understand. i mean, how you could you possibly suspect innocent little _me_? also, don't touch that big red button. 21:35:31 801) rephtrase 21:35:34 https://github.com/ktat 21:35:43 ohmy;'god 21:36:04 Sgeo, you didn't tell us KT-AT could Perl. 21:36:16 Wait a goddamn goddamn second 21:36:20 Phantom_Hoover: That's only one program. 21:36:23 She has to learn all the other programs. 21:36:25 Or was that another one. 21:36:26 Are pi and e co-transcendental? 21:36:31 That was Idiot Girl. 21:36:35 Ngevd, co-transcendental? 21:36:39 Phantom_Hoover: The politest name. 21:36:48 oerjan: Your careless un-Torred logged-in Wiki edits have revealed you. 21:36:57 The categorical dual of transcendental? 21:36:59 oerjan, define this. 21:37:04 fizzie: As opposed to Torred logged-in wiki edits. 21:37:09 Those would have been so fucking safe. 21:37:38 Phantom_Hoover, a is not expressible in algebraic terms of b 21:38:07 elliott: ONION ROUTING. 21:38:11 You mean a /= kb, k \in A? 21:38:19 Are pi and e co-transcendental? <-- famous unsolved problem. e.g. it's unknown whether either of pi+e and pi*e are rational, although at least one must be transcendental and both are suspected to be 21:38:20 Where A are algebraics. 21:38:34 fizzie: He just stepped on a security rake and got a face full of fucking safety, etc. 21:38:48 (The onions are the rake.) 21:39:33 (diff) (hist) . . N User:Asd4628182‎; 21:36 . . (+3) . . Asd462818 (Talk | contribs) (New page: asd) 21:39:34 (diff) (hist) . . N User:Asd462818‎; 21:31 . . (+3) . . Asd462818 (Talk | contribs) (New page: asd) 21:39:37 SPAMBOTS. YOU'RE NOT EVEN TRYING ANY MORE. 21:40:03 oerjan understands me 21:40:13 Damn you oerjan. 21:40:20 oerjan, will you be my friend? 21:40:28 You will find that when it comes to camping, you dont just want to sleep in an tent, but you will want to get a commercial RV and use the commercial campgrounds as an alternative camping experience. 21:40:29 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 21:40:36 Phantom_Hoover: i assume he means whether pi / e is in the algebraic closed field generated by the other (equivalently i think, whether there's a nontrivial rational polynomial p(x,y) such that p(pi,e) = 0) 21:40:46 [...] 21:40:48 You may need to go traditionally camping because of the money, however, you will want to think about modern ways of camping. fuck tonight locally 21:40:52 er, 21:40:57 *pi and e 21:41:03 no division implied 21:41:15 Erla64ys418a "a good spambot" 21:41:55 Phantom_Hoover: so more like prime : coprime :: transcendental : cotranscendental 21:42:01 monqy: fuck tonight locally 21:42:19 it was a link too 21:42:51 "What’s the Trick to Fucking Local Horny Locals Tonight?" 21:42:56 modern ways of camping 21:43:14 They're not just local, they're fucking local. 21:43:23 I mean, these locals are local as *shit*. 21:43:52 Edinburgh, city where shit is fucking local 21:44:06 Phantom_Hoover: They're so fucking local that they're referred to as "local" TWICE in the same question! 21:44:39 I can't deal with all this locality. 21:44:42 I'm going camping. 21:44:51 You will find that when it comes to camping, you dont just want to sleep in an tent, but you will want to get a commercial RV and use the commercial campgrounds as an alternative camping experience. 21:45:55 i also like the userpages of the asd bots 21:45:59 theyre very good 21:46:04 just get a sleeping bag and a room at the alta ice hotel 21:46:30 oerjan: Also known as a "Norwegian holiday". 21:46:50 (no i haven't tried that. do i _look_ insane? oh right. well, i still haven't.) 21:49:28 Or the Kiruna "ICEHOTEL" if you want the "Swedish holiday". 21:49:32 Ngevd: you can be my slightly less often beaten minion, if you like. 21:49:40 :D 21:49:48 http://www.itravelguide.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/ice-hotel-jukkasjarvi-church.jpg <- the hotel. 21:49:53 (Okay, so it's just their church.) 21:50:33 fizzie: omg :DD 21:50:35 There's also a snow hotel in Finland. 21:50:42 fizzie: wait, are you saying finland... ok. 21:50:43 It's less translucent. :/ 21:50:55 http://www.snowcastle.net/en/ 21:51:21 They do weddings and that sort of thing, much what you'd expect. 21:51:30 I think mooz might've stayed there? 21:52:08 They do have some ice in it, but judging from the photos not quite as much as at the ICEHOTEL. 21:53:37 We're going to go through Kiruna (twice, actually, since we need to get back too) around Easter, but skipped the ICE. I'm not sure how long it's open, anyway. 21:55:02 I think they put it in a storage hall during the summer and keep it open in a sort of reduced mode. 21:55:09 Which is pretty pointless. 21:55:30 Apparently summer tourists have been so disappointed for not being able to go to the ice hotel. 21:56:51 fizzie: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_hotel says it's just ice that is stored, not the previous hotel 21:56:59 Phantom_Hoover: so sets do not have isomorphisms? 21:57:06 or are set isomorphisms just bijective functions? 21:57:14 oerjan: http://www.icehotel.com/uk/ICEHOTEL/Stay-at-ICEHOTEL/The-ice-factory/ "For the first time in history you can experience the sensation of ICEHOTEL even during summer. The world’s first and largest hotel built of snow and ice, will have a little sister in the summer of 2012. On the 8th of June a smaller version of the hotel opens; 120 square meters and will hold three art suites, an ICEBAR by ICEHOTEL and place for guests to try ice sculpting." 21:57:34 kallisti, they're just bijections, so nobody calls them isomorphisms. 21:57:58 "Sleep well in -5 °C" 21:58:00 Yeees. 21:58:17 fizzie: ah. 21:58:21 "What is ICEHOTEL? A hotel built of ice and snow, would be the most common response. The first and the largest in the world, someone might add. But we have more thrilling stories to tell. Lean closer to your computer screen and we'll whisper them in your ear." 21:58:27 Phantom_Hoover: would it be technically incorrect to say so? aside from being laughed at? 21:59:15 kallisti, finite strings aren't the same as sets. 21:59:16 fizzie: So are the beds made out of ice in ICEHOTEL? 21:59:21 There's an implied structure there. 21:59:22 elliott, yews. 21:59:25 *yes 21:59:31 Phantom_Hoover: yes but a set of finite strings is a -- oh I see :P 21:59:57 Phantom_Hoover: Wait, really? 22:00:10 elliott, they have insulation on top. 22:00:16 elliott: "The bed you'll sleep on is made of blocks of ice, a wooden base and a mattress covered with reindeer skin." 22:01:03 Is it bad that I don't see the paradox in the Banach-Tarski Paradox? 22:01:03 Deewiant: The reindeer skin is frozen, right? 22:01:04 elliott: Yes, it's made of ice. 22:01:13 kallisti: bijections are the isomorphisms of the category Set. just because no one bothers to use the term when speaking solely about sets doesn't mean it's not true. 22:01:18 Ngevd: What, do your folk usually take a sphere apart and reassemble it into two spheres of the same size? 22:01:32 "paradox" is pretty much a meaningless word these days. 22:01:37 elliott, nah, we don't have enough spheres 22:01:55 Its meaning seems to be approximately along the lines of "whoa, man". 22:02:04 shachaf: Yes, those modern Banach-Tarskiers totally ruined everything. 22:02:06 I mean, it's just Hilbert's Hotel all over again 22:02:07 I remember the day when... 22:02:15 Ngevd: Not... really. 22:02:18 elliott: Well, it's been that way for a while. 22:02:29 Hilbret's hotel? Huh? 22:02:47 Is it bad that I don't see the paradox in the Banach-Tarski Paradox? 22:02:59 Not really, it just means you understand what it actually means. 22:03:19 Phantom_Hoover: I somewhat doubt that? 22:03:24 I have the feeling Ngevd doesn't understand what it actually means, going by what it just said. 22:03:26 elliott, why? 22:03:32 Aaah stop making me delete what I'm writing then making me realise that I didn't need to delete it 22:03:51 Phantom_Hoover: Well, people who understand Banach-Tarski don't generally say things like "Is it bad that I don't see the paradox in the Banach-Tarski Paradox?". 22:03:58 Phantom_Hoover: Or compare it to Hilbert's hotel. 22:04:13 My actual working definition of "paradox" is "an apparent contradiction". 22:04:21 Which covers a lot, you must admit. 22:04:29 Ngevd: "A stronger form of the theorem implies that given any two "reasonable" solid objects (such as a small ball and a huge ball) — solid in the sense of the continuum — either one can be reassembled into the other. This is often stated colloquially as "a pea can be chopped up and reassembled into the Sun"." -- maybe this seems more appropriately paradoxical to you. 22:04:52 elliott, only when thinking about physics 22:05:04 And even then not strictly paradoxical 22:05:12 elliott: Well, Hilbert's Hotel can be rearranged to, like, fit Hilbert's SUPERhotel. 22:05:35 Ngevd, it's more complex than just Hilbert's hotel; for one thing, it relies on the axiom of choice. 22:05:36 Ngevd: I don't see why you think things become less paradoxical-sounding when you detach them from "physics". 22:05:40 It's still geometry. 22:05:56 elliott, only finite subdivisions of the pea and the sun 22:06:00 * shachaf is not a fan of geometry. 22:06:20 As opposed to the hypothetically infinite subdivisions of the magic maths ball 22:06:21 shachaf, it's only tangentially geometry, really. 22:06:22 shachaf: don't be such a square! 22:06:32 the non-measurable weirdness going on with the pieces. 22:06:33 The meat of the proof is actually some neat group and set theory. 22:06:34 They've got some specifically warm sleeping bags, or some-such. 22:06:35 Argh. 22:06:40 I deleted the wrong part of that line. 22:06:51 From what I've heard it's still a bit chilly, at least in the Finnish snowcastle. 22:07:01 Phantom_Hoover: I think the rub is that Ngevd probably wouldn't consider it any differently if the pieces /weren't/ all weird and non-measurable. 22:07:10 Also having a wedding there is probably a recipe for a bit... frozen performance on your wedding night, maybe? 22:07:18 As opposed to the hypothetically infinite subdivisions of the magic maths ball 22:07:24 I think this explains everything, really : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFvokQUHh08 22:07:24 At least he seems to be saying essentially "it's abstract so anything goes". Also it is maybe IMPOLITE to talk about him in the third person like this. 22:07:26 This does kind of imply that he gets that much. 22:07:32 Yes this occurred. 22:07:44 s/ :/:/ # grr 22:07:55 I'm used to it, carry on talking about me behind my back in front of my back 22:08:11 That Ngevd guy sucks. 22:08:22 shachaf: what 22:08:26 fizzie: ... 22:08:37 Also I need sleep, tomorrow is an important day for me. A day I do not want to be sleepy on 22:08:39 Goodnight 22:08:41 -!- Ngevd has quit (Quit: Goodbye). 22:08:48 He's getting married. 22:08:58 Oh, I thought it was just a very mellow ragepat. 22:09:06 He is going to try to execute the Banach-Tarski paradox in real life. 22:09:14 You need to be very deft with a scalpel. 22:09:15 Phantom_Hoover: With himself. 22:09:21 And then marry his clone. 22:09:25 Very deft. 22:09:26 Phantom_Hoover: he'll fail, but then try again on Dec 21. 22:09:29 good video 22:10:17 good song 22:10:37 banach-tarski 22:12:26 This university should probably do something about its orange problem. 22:12:30 En samling af de bedste film der har medvirket i Matematik Revyen. 22:13:00 `words --danish 20 22:13:06 Unknown option: danish 22:13:09 Aw. 22:13:17 ONE UPVOTE SO 22:13:18 ONE UPVOTE 22:13:24 Also poor Denmark, I don't think they've got an ice hotel at all. 22:13:52 elliott: How would you like a shiny point of IRC karma? 22:13:52 `words --norwegian 20 22:13:56 lyderokolen pluminsiprobi kunstrømskate rĂĄde lantrassamenestilpa kavdelekand demotteriktenestpappe hallgasilkjordigst countraks artnerntor dovenestyrkivproduksst vittningen spektor kasjonensambasjon notektbifagaarken bilene bandringer mumsgud sykejenevningen konterstyrret 22:14:13 fizzie: Close enough! 22:14:25 `words --finnish 20 22:14:27 oerjan: ^^ Is it, really. 22:51:25 -!- esowiki has joined. 22:51:26 -!- glogbot has joined. 22:51:28 -!- EgoBot has joined. 22:51:30 -!- esowiki has joined. 22:51:31 -!- esowiki has joined. 22:51:32 -!- HackEgo has joined. 22:53:14 -!- Gregor has joined. 22:53:23 codu.org spam 22:53:42 how do you even get away with that Gregor 22:54:57 Lies. 22:54:59 Filthy lies. 22:56:11 "hi, i need a whatever-line extension so i can connect my bots that aren't part of any botnet" 22:56:43 BotNETs are typically, y'know, botNETs. 22:56:53 Microsoft Visual Bot.NET 22:57:21 anyhow i'm listening to music that AnMaster/Vorpal would hate 22:57:25 (C64 music :D) 22:57:42 actually, do you like chiptune stuff at all? 23:06:36 awwwww yeah chiptune 23:07:02 my music sucks ass... i basically just used a midi composer and placed some random notes 23:08:05 i'm at least pretending to work on a sega master system music driver 23:08:22 cool 23:08:27 wanna know what i was doing? 23:08:48 telling my mom about this jackie chan biography i have been reading while making a cup of coffee >.< 23:09:25 multitasking 23:26:22 it's ok as long as you don't leave coffee stains 23:26:53 Deewiant: pixelsize=12 didn't (on the top row, anyway), now I already turned that thing off. 23:26:56 i love retro gaming anyway 23:27:11 its the best thing 23:27:21 it reminds us that modern gaming aint so great 23:27:53 and.. reminds us about the joys of haptic feedback before touchscreens became so popular 23:29:01 and the joys of indexed image palettes 23:29:42 There's that one pretty webpage doing palette-rotation animations with canvas. 23:29:48 and the joys of box shaped image restoration filters 23:31:11 and video game magazines .. im sure they'll never be the same 23:32:23 http://www.effectgames.com/demos/canvascycle/?sound=0 in case someone's managed to miss it; though in Internet time it's SO OLD. 23:33:04 -!- rdrp has joined. 23:33:09 whoa 23:33:19 not what i expected 23:33:33 battery 73a 23:33:48 i think i should say and the joys of pixel art.. too 23:34:13 that is badass 23:37:13 -!- rdrp has quit (Client Quit). 23:38:00 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:38:00 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 23:38:29 The pictures are drawn by a guy who's done backgrounds for Loom and Secret of Monkey Island. 23:38:46 ah... he is that kind of scum 23:39:48 i looked at super mario in a nes emulator once and saw a palette cycle on a golden colour... used on coins and question blocks 23:47:00 pardon the pun 23:54:08 -!- boily has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6). 23:54:19 -!- cheater has joined.