00:01:37 <oerjan> <Taneb> I also get headaches when I see sine curves <-- needs an experiment to see if he sees sine curves when hungover
00:05:36 <oerjan> <kallisti> I wonder if Haskell is listed as concatenative.
00:06:25 <kallisti> A concatenative programming language is a point-free programming language in which all expressions denote functions and the juxtaposition of expressions denotes function composition.[1] The combination of a compositional semantics with a syntax that mirrors such a semantics makes concatenative languages highly amenable to algebraic manipulation.[2]
00:06:40 <kallisti> it's at least partially concatenative
00:06:46 <kallisti> or allows the style naturally.
00:06:48 <oerjan> juxtaposition does _not_ denote function composition in haskell.
00:07:03 <monqy> what does partially concatenative mean
00:07:29 <oerjan> admittedly . chains are common, but still.
00:07:40 <monqy> but if you're just going to make up what partially concatenative means
00:07:50 <monqy> then yes haskell is so partially concatenative it blows my mind
00:08:36 <kallisti> monqy: meaning that it doesn't fit the definition exactly but the definition describes a natural capability of the language.
00:09:03 <kallisti> in any case juxtaposition is a weird requirement. what makes . different from juxtaposition?
00:29:50 <oerjan> reinforced concrete syntax
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01:11:53 <itidus21> i think when it comes down to it it's all about fun
01:22:07 <kallisti> itidus21: depends on what you're looking for
01:22:11 <kallisti> there are several things to find in games.
01:22:50 <itidus21> my brother and i got a wii about a week ago
01:22:51 <kallisti> socializing, a waste of time, this amorphous "fun" thing you describe, or challenge.
01:23:20 <kallisti> certainly fun is an important aspect.
01:23:41 <itidus21> it was his idea.. one night "hey ive got this crazy idea.. do you wanna put in some money and we'll get a wii?"
01:23:45 <kallisti> though what makes something fun isn't quite clear and varies by person and what they're looking for.
01:24:15 <monqy> 17:22:42 < itidus21> my brother and i got a wii about a week ago
01:24:42 <itidus21> the honeymoon period of owning a wii is pretty special i admit
01:24:51 <itidus21> my first ever motion controller
01:25:29 <kallisti> it's like.... you could buy this specialize piece of computer equipment with arbitrary limits and a non-general-purpose operating system.
01:25:40 <kallisti> you could just buy that thing that you were going to get anyway, and just put some better stuff in it.
01:25:50 <itidus21> monqy: good question.. may the SOPA leave you in peace
01:26:19 <itidus21> kallisti: ah he hacked it too and got a usb loader
01:26:28 <kallisti> monqy: hi monqy invent a portal chess piece I want to change the queen piece.
01:27:42 <kallisti> oh and: while changing the queen piece, also counterbalance the affect that without the previous queen piece there is no way to capture the arrows.
01:27:46 <itidus21> the sad truth i discovered is that most games according to the reviews have poor control
01:28:07 <kallisti> the only reason I'd want a wii is to own super smash bros. brawl
01:28:17 <itidus21> so its a matter of finding the cream of the crop
01:28:47 <kallisti> no one in there right mind plays brawl with a wiimote
01:29:35 <itidus21> but.. nintendo peripherals are expensive :-s
01:29:54 * kallisti owns a wireless gamecube controller
01:30:13 <itidus21> it was $138 AUD with mario kart
01:32:19 <kallisti> one net thing about the wiimote is that it doubles as a traditional old school controller
01:34:04 <kallisti> monqy: what is partially monqy
01:34:16 <itidus21> i think good thing about diablo 2 (only one ive played) is the fun of tapping a button and watching your character bash someone
01:34:44 <kallisti> isn't that a pretty common feature of games?
01:35:19 <itidus21> what would gaming be without it
01:35:50 <itidus21> but thats where you guys come in...
01:36:02 <itidus21> you can make games more interesting through use of mathematics
01:36:52 * kallisti would probably be a pretty decent game designer.
01:37:47 <itidus21> basically, the " tapping a button and watching your character bash someone" mechanic is understandable in mathematical ways
01:38:12 <kallisti> but no one cares enough to bother.
01:38:17 <itidus21> at that point it is possible to break it down and do magic
01:38:30 <kallisti> itidus21: you should watch pro gamers play starcraft2
01:40:51 <kallisti> itidus21: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ncb7lHNWbnU
01:41:36 <itidus21> in this case i meant that the design of the game can be changed through analysis
01:41:52 <itidus21> but i suppose that a player can strategize around a simple button press through analysis also
01:42:57 <itidus21> ill look at it soon.. just gonna let some torrents finish first since i have firefox shut
01:44:07 <itidus21> i don't really understand stuff as well as i would like to
01:44:41 <itidus21> like the point where a game ceases to be an exercize in probability or algebra, and becomes fun
01:46:08 <kallisti> and then you overthink it into an exercise of probability or algebra.
01:46:22 <monqy> you've clearly been playing the wrong games, kallisti
01:46:54 <kallisti> itidus21: I wasn't even saying "hey dude analyze the shit out of starcraft 2 with maths"
01:47:08 <kallisti> I was saying: hey dude, watch this, it's exciting and entertaining.
01:56:45 <itidus21> i see.. my words didn't make sense
01:57:10 <itidus21> if you begin with a piece of paper and start writing down probabilities and algebras
01:57:26 <itidus21> at what point does that become a fun game, i wonder
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01:58:04 <itidus21> i don't suppose game design actually works that way
01:59:19 <itidus21> perhaps what i should say then is at what point does a set of rules become fun
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02:00:45 <itidus21> hmm definition of fun is slippery
02:01:40 <itidus21> one could go so far as to say that maybe games are not actually fun but players only pretend they are fun
02:02:27 <kallisti> why would they pretend to be having fun?
02:02:46 <kallisti> I guess people are complicated.
02:03:42 <itidus21> i guess what i am saying is that i am interested in real fun
02:04:40 <itidus21> another question is whether games are fun at first, and then an annoying addiction
02:07:05 * oerjan has been playing tatham's lightup puzzle for months
02:07:43 <kallisti> itidus21: that is how WoW works
02:08:35 <oerjan> like every similar kind of puzzle it is pretty easy to rethink as a special case of NP-complete graph problems.
02:09:55 <oerjan> usually you can get a long way by just looking at local conditions, but occasionally you get implications going around a large part of the board.
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02:10:18 <itidus21> when i was growing up i was kind of naive about how games actually operated
02:10:31 <itidus21> in hindsight i think i overestimated how deep they are
02:11:35 <itidus21> i suppose that everyone must have an idealized view of the field they go into before they get there
02:11:59 <oerjan> which i think means it's sort of related to Sat(2) clauses. and then there are the particularly hard ones, where not even following a chain of implications gives you the answer, which is suppose corresponds to at least SAT(3).
02:13:00 * kallisti had no idea what computer science was like
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02:14:11 <oerjan> monqy: just add ?banner=none hth
02:14:53 <itidus21> an abacus will soon attain sentience
02:15:04 <itidus21> it just has to have a power source
02:15:27 <itidus21> just like a car will soon attain sentience
02:15:28 <oerjan> in _principle_ you can make a purely mechanical computer.
02:16:05 <oerjan> there's this tic-tac-toe solver made by tinkertoy parts somewhere
02:16:53 <oerjan> but without electronical communication it becomes horribly slow
02:17:35 <oerjan> even the brain uses electricity, i think
02:17:48 <oerjan> (although chemistry as well)
02:18:48 <kmc> neural signaling is much slower than electronic computers, though
02:19:03 <itidus21> my first big let down in gaming was discovering that a combo in street fighter 2 was nothing more than a set of keypresses which temporarily froze the opponent
02:19:13 <kallisti> monqy: you seem to be very confused by simple words.
02:19:23 <oerjan> and because electronics is so much more efficient, anything else becomes a novelty show.
02:19:25 <kmc> something like 100 m/s
02:19:35 <oerjan> kmc: yes but still much faster than rolling balls :P
02:20:03 <monqy> kallisti: what's a simple
02:20:03 <kmc> and they fire at less than 1 KHz rate
02:20:10 <itidus21> but it's not clear why the speed of computation should bring about conciousness
02:20:34 <oerjan> <kallisti> why would they pretend to be having fun? <-- because they cannot find a way to do what they _really_ want to be doing. at least that's my excuse. perhaps itidus21's as well.
02:21:15 <itidus21> i have heard that complaint against hypnosis states that it may be just a sense of social obligation to act hypnotized
02:22:10 * oerjan should probably mention babbage lest someone thinks i'm forgetting him
02:22:56 <itidus21> tv is non interactive, and yet people like to watch games
02:22:57 <oerjan> if electronics had been impossible, then perhaps babbage's computer would eventually have made economic sense
02:23:10 <itidus21> having said this, colliseum is not particularly interactive
02:23:14 <kmc> i like http://www.blikstein.com/paulo/projects/project_water.html
02:23:59 <itidus21> now what i am talking about is whether spectating a game can be as fun as playing
02:24:41 <oerjan> <kallisti> monqy: you seem to be very confused by simple words. <-- he's been disconnected from half his brain and cannot understand our instructions for getting back to it.
02:24:56 <kmc> "The Water Integrator was an early analog computer built in the Soviet Union in 1928.[citation needed] It functioned by careful manipulation of water through a room full of interconnected pipes and pumps. The water level in various chambers (with precision to fractions of a millimeter) represented stored numbers, and the rate of flow between them represented mathematical operations. This machine was capable of solving non-homogeneous dif
02:24:56 <kmc> ferential equations."
02:25:05 <kmc> also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MONIAC_Computer
02:25:17 <kmc> models the national economy of the UK by pumping water around
02:26:26 <oerjan> <itidus21> but it's not clear why the speed of computation should bring about conciousness <-- maybe not, but imagine if humans thought a million times slower, they wouldn't get anything done and would be sitting ducks for predators
02:26:55 <itidus21> oerjan: maybe there is some other level to matter we are not really thinking about
02:26:55 <oerjan> so they wouldn't live long enough to develop it
02:27:13 <itidus21> oerjan: like we think about it as parts and wholes..
02:27:18 <itidus21> always with the parts and wholes
02:27:32 <itidus21> and we're never going to find conciousness amid parts and wholes
02:27:59 <oerjan> itidus21: i saw on wikipedia this scifi novel "The Dragon's Egg" about a life form on a neutron star, based on nuclear physics rather than chemistry. and _they_ thought a million times _faster_ than humans.
02:28:14 <kmc> that's pretty cool
02:28:15 <itidus21> also i should mention.... conciousness would come under threat if we ever figured it out
02:28:26 <itidus21> we don't WANT to figure it out...it .. would be very BAD
02:29:11 <oerjan> so the human explorers saw them develop civilization to a level past their own in a matter of days
02:29:44 <itidus21> what exactly do you think the military would do with this knowledge?
02:30:10 <itidus21> it would be exceedingly bad if science ever figured out conciousness
02:30:49 <kallisti> oerjan: they would still be fundamentally constrained by limited resources
02:30:55 <kallisti> even if they could perhaps operate more efficiently
02:30:56 <itidus21> nuclear bombs are great so long as noone uses them
02:31:06 <kallisti> and even that is an open question. consciousness is a lot of work.
02:31:12 <kmc> yeah the CIA tried to figure out mind control
02:31:19 <kmc> by kidnapping people and experimenting on them
02:31:42 <kmc> but they probably didn't have the technology to do anything useful
02:32:27 <itidus21> i actually have a book on cia mind control stuff that i haven't read
02:32:33 <kallisti> I think in order to be conscious, computers would have to employ many of the tricks we do. approximations on input data and pre-existing assumptions.
02:32:42 <itidus21> but i think its probably written to sell books
02:33:19 <oerjan> kallisti: well they were also just about a millimeter big :P
02:33:37 <kallisti> oh I missed a reference apparently
02:35:34 <oerjan> and then there is eliezer yudkowski's story where humanity happens to find themselves living inside a simulation made by beings _several_ million times slower than humans
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02:37:44 * kallisti has been teaching someone Haskell.
02:37:55 <kallisti> this is the fourth person now.
02:38:11 <oerjan> i can hear elliott screaming in my mind
02:38:22 <kmc> how do you teach them
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02:39:24 <oerjan> itidus21: that's what THEY have programmed you to think
02:39:27 <kallisti> the first one went well, the second one kind of stopped happening, the third one didn't work at ALL (guy was basically too thick-headed to get anywhere), and the fourth one is going pretty well.
02:39:33 * oerjan crawls back under rock
02:39:39 <kallisti> kmc: I bombard them with information for hours, repeatedly until it makes sense.
02:40:00 <kmc> do you make them read anything?
02:40:14 <kmc> do they read them?
02:40:24 <kallisti> the guy I'm helping right now has not, I think.
02:40:36 <kallisti> he's just been fucking around with list functions and stuff and learning that way.
02:40:40 <kmc> my experience in #haskell is that a decent fraction of people will never read anything unless you refuse to help them otherwise
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02:41:13 <kallisti> he gets partial application now. I explained algebraic data types a bit. I think he understands pattern matching but he appears to be unable to write the code for map so....
02:41:16 <kallisti> something must not be understood
02:43:20 <kallisti> anyway learning Haskell is something you have to do slowly. and teaching it has to be done patiently
02:43:26 <kallisti> so I assume gradually over time things will sink in.
02:43:39 <kallisti> simple things like precedence of operators and function application seems to throw him off, no matter how many times I explain how it works.
02:44:25 <kallisti> third attempt at teaching was TERRIBLE
02:44:29 <kallisti> that guy is basically lost to C++
02:46:22 <itidus21> the trick with haskell is that mathematics has to be learned simultaneously
02:46:38 * kallisti hasn't learned much math at all while learning Haskell.
02:46:52 <itidus21> but did you go in knowing much?
02:46:57 <kallisti> just recently some very basic category theory.
02:47:14 <kallisti> unless you count college-level math.
02:47:33 <itidus21> in imperative languages all you need to know is sequence, selection, iteration
02:47:58 <monqy> itidus no............................................
02:48:19 <kmc> itidus21, i think everything I have seen you say about Haskell is 100% wrong
02:48:46 <itidus21> im not here for the same reasons as anyone else in here
02:49:01 <itidus21> its ok.. not claiming im about to run away, just saying
02:49:21 <itidus21> i came here expecting to find BASIC clones :P
02:49:40 <kmc> i'm not saying you don't belong
02:49:55 <kmc> just wondering why you continue to make claims about Haskell in particular
02:50:07 <kmc> plenty of other stuff to talk about
02:50:19 <monqy> itidus can only make claims about things he both knows the existence of and doesn't know anything about
02:50:34 <kmc> i think there should be an esolang called Haskell
02:50:36 <monqy> he knows haskell exists but he doesn't know anything about it. perfect
02:50:42 <kmc> which has all the properties uninformed people think Haskell has
02:50:56 <itidus21> it is the primary topic of esolangs so one can safely assume it is esoteric >:)
02:51:22 <itidus21> it is the staple language perhaps
02:51:39 <kmc> to do any IO in my Haskell you are required to type in a proof of the Yoneda Lemma
02:51:49 <kmc> also it will memoize all functions
02:52:13 <itidus21> ok i admit its not esoteric, but it is the non-esoteric home base of esoteric languages
02:52:23 <oerjan> to make your haskell, first you must invent a topos in which nothing ever needs to be recalculated
02:52:50 <itidus21> i dont know what happens in your minds when you hear function
02:53:02 <itidus21> whatever happens does not happen for me
02:53:14 <oerjan> itidus21: they're still small bell sound and then we start salivating. or was that with monad.
02:53:20 <kallisti> itidus21: although I am prone to this myself, it is oftentimes better to not make claims about things you don't understand in the slightest degree.
02:53:30 <itidus21> for me i see 2 things..... i see (+ 2 3) ... i see add(2,3)
02:54:02 <oerjan> <itidus21> i came here expecting to find BASIC clones :P <-- have you looked at FORTE? :D
02:54:05 <itidus21> i can also vaguely concieve that addition function is a manifold
02:54:39 <itidus21> but, as function means in lambda calculus.. it doesn't seem to fit any of my existing concepts of function
02:54:55 <kallisti> monqy: the course number for my discrete math class was 1234.
02:55:14 <oerjan> s/they're still/there's this/
02:55:21 <itidus21> (+ (+ 2)) and add(add(2) .. the second one doesn't work at all :-s
02:55:22 <oerjan> how the heck did i mistype that bad
02:55:38 <kmc> that's because you have the wrong number of arguments
02:55:48 <lambdabot> forall a. (Num a) => (a -> a) -> a -> a
02:55:50 <kallisti> itidus21: unless you have a Num instance for functions of course. :>
02:55:58 <kmc> which lambdabot does
02:56:11 <kmc> itidus21, as ((add 2) 3)
02:56:35 <itidus21> i made a mistake .. imaginig it as (+ (+ 2))
02:56:38 <kmc> itidus21, assuming that's Haskell syntax, you're using some special Haskell features there
02:56:53 <kmc> it's easier to understand if you stick to a more regular syntax like scheme
02:57:20 <kmc> (define add (lambda (x) (lambda (y) (+ x y))))
02:57:22 <kmc> ((add 2) 3)
02:57:46 <itidus21> but i get it insisted that lambda has no types
02:58:07 <kmc> there are typed lambda calculi and untyped lambda calculi
02:58:17 <monqy> which important lambda
02:58:39 <kmc> pair of docs
02:58:46 <monqy> pear pear pear pear pear
02:58:58 <itidus21> i get told its invalid to use analogies on untyped lambda calc
02:59:35 -!- kallisti has changed nick to noone.
02:59:36 <kmc> you're not making any sense at all
02:59:37 <kmc> just so you know
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03:00:04 <Guest70053> kmc: itidus21 berates himself with his Haskell wisdom
03:00:09 -!- Guest70053 has changed nick to kallisti.
03:01:29 <itidus21> is it something which just magically makes sense one day like a foreign language?
03:01:45 <kmc> that's not how foreign languages work either
03:02:05 <kallisti> but it can be difficult to explain how learning works, though it typically happens gradually as you understand small pieces of the whole thing
03:02:33 <kallisti> it's certainly directed effort
03:03:26 <kallisti> it doesn't necessarily have to be a lot of effort
03:03:33 <kallisti> depending on what you're learning
03:03:41 <oerjan> itidus21: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Forte
03:03:51 <Sgeo> Leksah is taking forever to to find out information about packages
03:03:59 <kallisti> learning the basics of Haskell for example was fairly simple. I just leisurely read some material about it and it all pretty much made sense
03:04:05 <kallisti> I did struggle with monads for a bit however.
03:04:10 <Sgeo> Awesome, it's taking over an hour
03:04:31 <itidus21> i remember when i was young the first time i could read a page in a book. it was a sesame street book, something about grover
03:04:42 <kallisti> I honestly don't even know how I learned perl...
03:05:19 <kallisti> I think I just massread documentation and then attempted to write some simple programs.
03:05:34 <kallisti> then referred to documentation when something unexpected happened, repeat.
03:05:37 <itidus21> i think part of learning language is like solving a jigsaw puzzle
03:06:09 <itidus21> one efficiency of language is that one can presume each statement is correct.
03:06:21 <itidus21> and one can infer from this that each word usage in language is correct
03:06:40 <itidus21> like if you are reading a book.. you can infer that the grammar is more or less perfect
03:06:46 <itidus21> that the word usage is more or less perfect
03:06:56 <kallisti> yes if you're new to these things that's a decent approximation
03:06:56 <itidus21> and you just have to figure out why
03:07:13 <kallisti> and certainly program examples in textbooks are most likely going to be correct
03:07:17 <kallisti> though not necessarily optimal
03:07:38 <kallisti> there are many senses of optimal.
03:08:08 <kallisti> performance, clarity, elegance, ease of writing, ease of understanding.
03:08:23 <kallisti> I guess ease of understanding could be clarity actually
03:09:02 <itidus21> in the world there is information.... so there is a challenge of mapping a language to a piece of information
03:09:30 <itidus21> in some cases it is necessary to invent words
03:09:48 <kallisti> itidus21: yes I am having trouble mapping your words to pieces of information
03:09:54 <kallisti> they often appear meaningless.
03:10:05 <kallisti> this is indeed a problem I face. :P
03:10:10 <itidus21> like apples exist in the universe as information
03:10:37 <itidus21> the burden is on language to find a way to explain them
03:10:55 <itidus21> this world view i am describing i know it isn't a proper one though
03:11:45 <kallisti> yes, improper indeed! obscene displays for scoundrels.
03:12:07 <itidus21> now, that means that someone who is learning a language can assume that the words refer to some information the reader intuitively would understand
03:12:16 <itidus21> at least for non technical writing
03:13:19 <itidus21> like.. The color of the apple is %$%$%.
03:13:44 <itidus21> The color of the grass is %$%$%.
03:14:02 * kallisti sidles on over that way... ---->
03:14:12 <itidus21> so we know that %$%$%. means green
03:14:49 <kallisti> itidus21: what if information is light
03:15:05 <itidus21> anyway i have heard it said that all things are temporary
03:15:45 <itidus21> but, we are guaranteed to be more temporary than the world :D
03:16:20 <kallisti> (you should at this point be well-versed in all the rules)
03:16:26 <oerjan> itidus21: hey there are some singularitarians who want to argue that
03:16:34 <oerjan> kallisti: try flexihexadodecahylomorphisms instead, hth
03:16:53 <itidus21> oerjan: ahhh shit... i think you mentioned this to me.. deja vu
03:17:28 <kallisti> oerjan: what is a better queen unit
03:17:45 <kallisti> keeping in mind that, if prisms are removed, there is no way to capture arrows via projectiles.
03:19:15 <oerjan> it's well known to like arrows
03:19:58 <itidus21> kallisti: i worry you indulge my rants too much
03:20:08 <oerjan> it could, like, stop time in some direction, making arrows vulnerable in the _next_ round
03:20:19 <oerjan> and prevent anything else from moving
03:21:00 <itidus21> to put things in perspective.. my doctor today says to me.. isn't it difficult with no income? and.. as you probably heard your mom saw a psychiatrist.. if you want i can get him to see you "i'll definitely think about it"
03:21:03 <kallisti> I do not need to add an entirely new mindfuck element to the game
03:21:34 <oerjan> ok then, another suggestion is the Bore.
03:21:37 <kallisti> I'm looking less for pieces that do cool tricks, and more for pieces that balance out the game as a whole.
03:21:53 <kallisti> the game is somewhat balanced, but I feel something is missing.
03:22:09 <oerjan> if a Bore is next to a piece for two rounds, that piece dies. because it's that boring.
03:22:25 <itidus21> each move... is represented by a video submission
03:22:28 <oerjan> it mustn't move between the rounds, though.
03:22:55 <kallisti> in the first workings of the game I had a piece that could swap places with any other piece
03:22:58 <kallisti> this is probably not very good though
03:24:15 <itidus21> where does the game take place?
03:24:23 <itidus21> like i know chess takes place on a grassy field
03:24:25 <kallisti> the starting configuration is the same as in chess.
03:24:45 <kallisti> uh this game is purely abstract
03:24:58 <oerjan> the green green grass of doom
03:25:22 <kallisti> oerjan: how much do you know about portal chess, and how interested are you in suggesting new ideas? :?
03:25:54 <kallisti> you must certainly be totally interested
03:26:16 <kallisti> oerjan: I'm shocked and offended
03:26:17 <itidus21> my brain just doesn't work that way
03:26:48 <Sgeo> http://z7.comicostrich.com/ Z7 is broken
03:27:00 <oerjan> kallisti: i'm sorry, i'm trying to preserve the little personal space i have left in this world.
03:28:02 <oerjan> which i have discovered, means _not_ letting other people define what i'm supposed to do, and _especially_ not if they're taking it for granted.
03:28:57 <oerjan> and _especially_ not if they're about to get diagnosed cancer. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
03:29:11 <oerjan> (the last part hopefully doesn't apply to you.)
03:29:27 <itidus21> the cancer thing is how it would lead to guilty obligation to you
03:29:42 <oerjan> itidus21: precisely. which is what happened to me, last friday.
03:29:52 <kallisti> one possible solution to the arrow problem is to make pawns more effective at... normal capture
03:30:12 <kallisti> so far the only normally capturing units are pawns and kings. :P
03:30:13 <oerjan> and now i cannot bear to see the person again.
03:30:46 <itidus21> oerjan: the ideal solution is email them a screenshot of your desktop
03:31:00 <oerjan> they don't have email.
03:31:01 <itidus21> but theres probably unforseen downsides
03:31:31 <itidus21> ive never actually used the email a chat screenshot solution
03:33:51 <kallisti> man the bishop is such a good piece in chess.
03:34:07 <kallisti> strong piece early and mid game for board control.
03:34:57 <oerjan> kallisti: you know one way would be to make the queen completely like in chess, but somehow ironically the weakest piece.
03:35:17 <kallisti> that would be impressively difficult to accomplish
03:35:23 <kallisti> a regular queen would be excellent in this game.
03:35:37 <kallisti> actually my current prism idea mimics the queen strategically.
03:36:10 <kallisti> in that it's a very powerful piece with an important purpose, but is incredibly useless until the later game.
03:36:32 <kallisti> it's more vulnerable to attack than other pieces.
03:37:04 <kallisti> arrows disregard who initiated a projectile. they are completely immune to the effects
03:37:25 <kallisti> a prism is inbetween the arrow and the cannon along the projectile's path
03:38:13 <kallisti> the prism does not have the same immunity. it can be captured by enemy projectiles.
03:38:45 <kallisti> but I feel it's fundamentally broken in some way... which will probably be revealed through actual gameplay.
03:39:08 <kallisti> however the arrow, portal, cannon pieces are pretty solid I feel. they don't need too much tweaking.
03:39:20 <oerjan> well one obvious brokenness is that if you lose your prism, your opponent's arrows become invincible...
03:39:31 <kallisti> by the most effective means of capture, yes.
03:39:50 <kallisti> I forgot I gave arrows the ability to capture as well. :> maybe I should have that.
03:40:03 <kallisti> they can move like bishops, but cannot capture like bishops
03:40:14 <kallisti> and they may move or capture one space in any cardinal direction
03:41:09 <kallisti> the cardinal movement rule is added to facillitate loop shenanigans. :>
03:41:22 <kallisti> so that both of your arrows can be on the same grid color.
03:41:29 <kallisti> they can "sidestep" over into the other color.
03:42:05 <oerjan> kallisti: oh so there is ordinary capture in addition to projectiles, and arrows are not immune to that?
03:45:10 <kallisti> but there's not any really strong normal capturing pieces.
03:45:19 <kallisti> pawns. kings. maybe arrows but I think that will be broken.
03:45:44 <kallisti> I'm not sure how a strong capturing piece would change the dynamic of the game.
03:46:38 <oerjan> prism - queen, portal - bishop, knight/rook - arrow/what?
03:46:43 <kallisti> connected to your opponents queen piece.
03:47:07 <kallisti> there are two rooks. upside down rook is DCannon and normal rook is CCannon
03:47:16 <kallisti> they're both cannons pieces but one fires diagonally and one fires cardinally
03:47:30 <kallisti> the DCannons start along the main diagonal of the board.
03:48:26 <oerjan> ah so that first move you've been discussing is one DCannon projectiling the other?
03:49:07 <kallisti> yes I realized it was not a viable move though
03:49:14 <kallisti> though the opening is still viable
03:49:25 <kallisti> the subsequent capture that becomes available is ultimately not a good tradeoff by any means
03:50:17 <kallisti> perhaps to maintain the diagonal symmetry I should swap the king-queen pair of one side of the
03:51:09 <oerjan> actually, _either_ cannon can capture the opponent's DCannon, i assume
03:51:29 <oerjan> but since they don't move, there's no difference in result
03:51:42 <kallisti> well they can move, but movement isn't really their thing. :P
03:52:21 <kallisti> I feel this is pretty balanced.
03:52:22 <kmc> sweep enemies down like fist of drunken god
03:52:32 <kallisti> otherwise they would become major offensive pieces
03:52:44 <kallisti> instead the idea is to have arrows act indirectly through cannons
03:53:06 <kallisti> while the cannon remains tucked away. though reposition could be a smart tactical choice
03:55:15 <kallisti> oerjan: I have been focusing on that opening quite a bit in my reasoning about how the game will play out
03:55:23 <kallisti> it seems prone to mirroring on both sides.
03:56:00 <kallisti> perhaps the dcannons should not be diagonally across the board from each other. :P
03:57:02 <kallisti> and instead white could have his dcannon on the major diagonal, and black's could be on the minor diagonal.
03:57:37 <kallisti> establishing normal chess-like symmetry
03:59:06 <kallisti> I'm currently thinking about how insane the arrow-push rule would be
03:59:21 <kallisti> where a moving array is allowed to "push" friendly pieces in front of it when moving.
03:59:31 <kallisti> ....if I extended the rule to arbitrary chains of pieces in front of the arrow
03:59:37 <kallisti> then you could, instead of having a castling rule
04:00:00 <kallisti> shift your entire row of pieces over by one square, provided you moved something else out of the way.
04:01:26 <kallisti> but I think the arrow already has a pretty good purpose.
04:01:34 <kallisti> he doesn't need more things he can do. :P
04:03:26 <kallisti> I think having the queen be a portal that corresponds to the opponent's queen would be awesome.
04:03:50 <kallisti> but then there is still a fairly unstoppable arrow. the only real counter to an arrow is another arrow, which encourages more mirroring.
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04:19:22 <kallisti> is that the c-cannon could be able to capture arrows
04:19:59 <MDude> The d-cannon can only dapture.
04:20:17 <kallisti> where dapture means "not capture"
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04:22:52 <kallisti> stop being so difficult to remove from the board.
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04:35:06 <kallisti> I think instead of having portals explode when there sister portal is captured
04:35:13 <kallisti> I'll just have them become... normal capturing pieces.
04:35:37 <kallisti> if a pawn reaches the other end of the board it can then be promoted into a portal, and reactivate the other one if it's still present.
04:36:02 <kallisti> (...I have no clue what happens when you promote a portal with two portals already)
04:36:32 <kallisti> but I pretty tempted to say no promotion rule.
04:37:13 <kallisti> oerjan: ah I see the flaw I've been making
04:37:32 <kallisti> I have been thinking that arrows are these unstoppable brutes
04:37:50 <kallisti> I didn't consider creative usage of portals.
04:37:59 <kallisti> which has many possible creative usages.
04:38:22 * kallisti should be thinking more in terms of how portals affect strategy, and focusing less on arrows.
04:40:47 <kallisti> @tell zzo38 do you think it's a good idea to use Unicode when displaying the text board for my portal chess server? I think it would be helpful for indicating things like piece directions.
04:46:07 <oerjan> 'monochrom: at a crossroad you meet an angel (always tells the truth) or demon (always lies). the crossroad gives you two choices of roads, one to heaven, one to hell, and only the angel or demon knows which is which. if you ask "how would you answer if I asked 'what is a monad?'", what will happen?'
04:46:23 <oerjan> http://contemplatecode.blogspot.com/2012/01/haskell-weekly-news-issue-211.html is back.
04:58:53 <kallisti> that is a complicated fucking question
04:59:57 <kallisti> the demon will start talking about burritos, and the angel will talk about monoids in the category of endofunctors.
05:00:27 <oerjan> hm i doubt your demon conclusion.
05:00:42 <oerjan> looks too plausibly truthful.
05:01:21 <oerjan> i guess it's possible it would answer with a _different_ lie if asked 'what is a monad?'
05:03:11 <kallisti> the premise seems unrelated to the question.
05:03:25 <kallisti> you're not being asked to deduct which road is the correct one
05:03:32 <kallisti> this doesn't even seem to be a riddle
05:07:35 <kallisti> the angel would answer: truthfully
05:07:39 <kallisti> the demon would answer: truthfully
05:09:09 <oerjan> you appear to be having trouble with nested hypotheticals.
05:11:03 <kallisti> you are asking them what would happen if you asked that
05:11:21 <kallisti> so they would be describe things about what they would say
05:11:27 <kallisti> not specifically what they would say to the hypothetical question
05:12:19 <oerjan> that "...ah." meant i got it, btw.
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05:13:05 <kallisti> I guess I should interpret things more literally.
05:13:29 <zzo38> kallisti: Hello. What question?
05:13:30 <lambdabot> zzo38: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
05:13:52 <kallisti> the one that the lambdabot is have
05:14:04 <lambdabot> kallisti said 33m 16s ago: do you think it's a good idea to use Unicode when displaying the text board for my portal chess server? I think it would be helpful for indicating things like piece
05:15:07 <kallisti> then devising a visually helpful ASCII board will be pretty challenging
05:15:23 <kallisti> as there are multiple pieces with directionality
05:15:34 <zzo38> You still could put directions, using < > ^ v if those are the only ones
05:15:45 <kallisti> I believe I counted 21 distinct piece states
05:15:51 <kallisti> zzo38: diagonal is needed as well
05:15:52 <zzo38> Or you could use compass direction, numbers, etc
05:15:55 <kallisti> and multiple pieces use directions
05:16:06 <kallisti> compass direction names could be good, yes.
05:16:25 <zzo38> Can you make a list of all the states of all pieces please? I would like to see it
05:17:14 <zzo38> What symmetry do you use, mirror (as in chess) or rotation (as in shogi)?
05:17:27 <kallisti> I don't know what you mean by that.
05:17:44 <kallisti> see the Direction and PieceInfo data types
05:18:00 <kallisti> note that the Prism piece is subject to change, it may also have a direction
05:19:24 <zzo38> Because, you could either use absolute directions, or directions relative to the player.
05:19:50 <zzo38> If you use directions relative to the player, you need to know what symmetry you use.
05:19:56 <zzo38> But probably absolute directions would be better here
05:19:58 <kallisti> so far I've used absolute directions, with the board oriented as in a standard chess diagram
05:20:04 <kallisti> black is on the north side, white is on the south side.
05:20:43 <zzo38> kallisti: Yes. What I mean, is that, in chess, the queens are on the same file, the kings are on the same file. In shogi, the flying chariot is in the file of the opponent's angled mover, and vice versa.
05:21:21 <kallisti> I was thinking about that actually
05:21:34 <kallisti> I may do rotation like shogi then
05:21:59 <kallisti> the difference would be in opening moves.
05:22:19 <kallisti> with rotation as in shogi, the d-cannons of both players start on the major diagonal
05:22:32 <kallisti> with mirror symmetry white would have the major diagonal, and black would have the minor.
05:22:43 <zzo38> dirNotation North = "N"; dirNotation Northeast = "NE"; ... notation Pawn = "P"; notation (Arrow x) = dirNotation x; notation (Portal x) = 'X' : dirNotation x; notation Prism = "PR"; notation DCannon = "DC"; notation CCannon = "CC"; notation King = "K";
05:23:15 <kallisti> should be fine, though annoying to read
05:23:21 <kallisti> I think a UTF-8 option would be good.
05:23:33 <zzo38> (And then change to lowercase for second player)
05:23:58 <zzo38> kallisti: Yes, you could have an option, for clients supporting UTF-8 (and having the relevant fonts installed), but allow plain ASCII as well
05:26:06 <kallisti> zzo38: I was also thinking ANSI color would be good, though having all of these options will quickly become tiresome to implement
05:26:58 <zzo38> I say, just implement plain ASCII mode, and then implement a graphical interface separately.
05:27:20 <zzo38> Other things can be added later if wanted (someone could send patches if they want, or whatever it is)
05:27:36 <kallisti> zzo38: do you mean ASCII line mode/
05:27:59 <zzo38> Yes, just ASCII line mode will do
05:29:32 <kallisti> zzo38: I think having a nice terminal interface would be good too.
05:30:06 <kallisti> this could be implemented as a second program however.
05:54:03 <kallisti> zzo38: I may also look into generalizing some of the code to work with many different kinds of pieces
05:54:22 <kallisti> but I won't really make use of that.
06:27:50 <zzo38> I do not think Pure BF is really equivalent to brainfuck, because Pure BF is not interactive
06:28:09 <zzo38> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Pure_BF/Implementation
06:32:48 <zzo38> (The download is at the bottom of the article.)
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07:32:13 <Jafet> kallisti: ♖♘♗♕♔♗♘♖
07:50:34 <zzo38> Someone made up a joke about naming the Chinese children: The parents throw all of their cutlery down the stairs, and however noise it makes is the name of their children.
08:03:29 <kmc> anyone know why my apparently very simple libbfd example isn't working? http://hpaste.org/56653
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08:10:47 -!- oerjan has set topic: now open for Americans to liberate | Get your esoil and esoline here! | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
08:11:05 -!- oerjan has set topic: #esoteric now open for Americans to liberate | Get your esoil and esoline here! | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
08:12:05 -!- oerjan has set topic: #esoteric now open for Americans to liberate | Get your esoil and esoline here! | Bow to the glorious optators! | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
08:12:25 <zzo38> Do you think Pure BF is different than brainfuck because Pure BF is not interactive?
08:12:52 <oerjan> well you can make it interactive enough if you assume laziness
08:13:52 <oerjan> like lazy-k's bf interpreter presumably does
08:13:54 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, you can fake it, and have Lazy I/O;
08:14:17 <zzo38> Still, Pure BF is not really interactive, even if you can make it so, doing somehow.
08:15:00 <zzo38> I wrote an implementation (it is on the wiki) so you can see how it worked
08:15:18 <zzo38> I used: type Tape = Sum Integer -> Word8;
08:15:22 <zzo38> type World = ([Word8], [Word8]);
08:17:33 <zzo38> Does it look like correctly to you? It has "interpret" function which is based on lazy I/O
08:17:49 <zzo38> So it is not necessarily the same as brianfuck.
08:17:57 <zzo38> s/brianfuck/brainfuck/
08:19:28 <zzo38> The action=raw function in MediaWiki, and the way that <pre> works in MediaWiki, you can make a wiki article which is also a valid Haskell program.
08:19:46 <kmc> solution: one must call bfd_check_format after opening the bfd
08:19:57 <lambdabot> *Exception: Enum.succ{Word8}: tried to take `succ' of maxBound
08:20:25 <oerjan> zzo38: i believe Word8 is defined to do arithmetic (mod 256)
08:20:36 <zzo38> Feel free to change the program then
08:21:09 <zzo38> The download link just downloads the raw copy of the wiki page
08:22:46 <zzo38> Which happens to be a valid literate Haskell program.
08:24:40 <Sgeo> happens to be?
08:24:57 <zzo38> Because I wrote it that way.
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12:52:12 <ais523> quite a lot of people, but most of them are probably not paying attention
12:53:10 <Ben__> Anyone here knows Lament or his/her language Prelude?
12:54:32 <Ben__> I am looking for the Draft specification of prelude, but the link on http://esolangs.org/wiki/Prelude leads to a server that is down.
12:54:41 <ais523> Ben__: hmm, interesting
12:54:51 <ais523> lament is a regular here, but hasn't actually spoken for ages
12:55:38 <ais523> sadly, I don't have a copy of that file saved; someone else might
12:56:27 <ais523> aha, found an archived copy: http://web.archive.org/web/20060504072859/http://z3.ca/~lament/prelude.txt
12:56:28 <Deewiant> http://wayback.archive.org/web/*/http://z3.ca/~lament/prelude.txt
12:56:44 <Deewiant> It's not the newest version though
12:57:50 <Ben__> that version says basically the same as the wiki page at esolangs.org
12:58:34 <Deewiant> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Prelude&diff=7938&oldid=6758 and this diff suggests that the newest prelude.txt would be pretty much identical
12:58:34 <Ben__> and... some statements are really ambiguous
12:58:37 <ais523> esolangs.org is typically the best place to find links to esolang information
12:58:48 <ais523> Ben__: you can look at an interpreter to figure out what the statemetns should mean
13:00:00 <Ben__> we did; it took us quite a while to refactor it into a readable format... but the implementation makes a number of assumptions that aren't in the language specification itself and we're trying to find out if those were intended
13:00:27 <ais523> it can be hard to know what's intended in a specification
13:00:40 <ais523> especially where esolangs are concerned, the author's answer is often "I didn't think of that"
13:01:37 <Ben__> would you happen to know if Lament was the one who wrote the interpreter?
13:01:46 <Ben__> because then we can just assume that's what he meant :)
13:02:00 <ais523> I don't know, although it seems possible
13:02:07 <ais523> is there a name in the interpreter? often there is
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13:02:12 <ais523> e.g. I'm Alex Smith, and wrote bf2pre, the compiler
13:02:22 <ais523> and my name's on it to make that clear
13:04:05 <Ben__> apparently you're the one who wrote the interpreter (prelude.c) we're looking at
13:04:45 <ais523> aha, the Python interp was written by lament
13:04:51 <ais523> yep, seems I wrote the C interp
13:05:20 <ais523> here you go, if you want author's intent: http://web.archive.org/web/20060504072747/http://z3.ca/~lament/prelude.py
13:05:41 <ais523> not sure if the two interps are identical, I based mine on the spec
13:06:32 <Ben__> too bad the original server seems to have disappeared; quite a few pages on esolangs.org link to it
13:06:49 <ais523> it has a tendency to happen with esolangs
13:07:01 <ais523> that's what the Esolang fileserver was for, but it's also disappeared in the sense that nobody writes to it any more
13:07:04 <ais523> (it can still be read just fine)
13:07:27 <Ben__> too bad, these languages are quite interesting
13:07:40 <ais523> well, the languages are mostly documented on the wiki
13:08:46 <Ben__> I'm currently working on a case study in a class on languages and automatons(/automata?) for which everyone uses esolangs.org pretty much exclusively
13:30:05 <fizzie> Deewiant: Hoy I just saw your name.
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13:30:34 <fizzie> Deewiant: Keijo Heljanko is presenting some genome data visualization thing.
13:31:01 <Deewiant> fizzie: Right now, and you're IRC'ing from there or something? :-D
13:31:08 <fizzie> Apparently you've done some programmering there. Unless you have a same-named person.
13:31:18 <fizzie> Still speaking, in fact.
13:31:31 <fizzie> I didn't want to forget to mention it.
13:31:52 <Deewiant> Yes, I've programmered the Aalto parts of it.
13:32:07 <Deewiant> And am in the process of programmering related things.
13:33:05 <fizzie> It's this "TIK-päivä". Our speech recog demo is here, and techically one conference poster of mine was supposed to also, but I think they ran out of poster boards.
13:33:45 <Deewiant> I was just about to say that it's that Day thing.
13:34:12 <Deewiant> And I think I recall him mentioning that he was going to talk about it.
13:36:30 <fizzie> He's also advertising his cloud computing course and summer trainee positions. :p
13:36:48 <fizzie> All this during a ten-minute thing.
13:37:01 <fizzie> Also there was a photo of Triton.
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13:41:58 <fizzie> Next: Tomi Janhunen and the classroom schedule automation thing that I almost was involved in. (Back in 2007 I applied to both CIS and TCS lab summer trainee programs; both said yes; that would've been the TCS option.)
13:43:19 <Deewiant> I might've applied to that one too, can't remember how it worked.
13:44:24 <fizzie> I'm not sure if TCS asked what I wanted, at least back then, I think they just told me "this is what we'd have for you".
13:44:56 <Deewiant> I recall the topics were all visible beforehand, at least.
13:45:04 <Deewiant> Not sure if one had to be picked on the application.
13:45:38 <fizzie> Yes, there was a list.
13:46:07 <fizzie> This year's topics for ICS should be out any day now, or so I've heard.
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14:05:14 <Taneb> I'm going to play dwarf fortress until my power goes out, then do homework
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14:45:16 <Slereah> A professor proposing a thesis is asking me to explain my python programming that I claim on my resume
14:45:23 <Slereah> But all my python programming is esolangs!
14:49:05 <fizzie> Deewiant: Hey here's also a poster with your name on it.
14:49:11 <fizzie> Deewiant: You is famous.
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14:57:28 <Deewiant> It's probably the one that's typically hanging outside my office. :-P
14:58:02 <Deewiant> Unless it also says Siert on it in which case it's the one from the second floor.
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15:19:31 <fizzie> I'm inside the speaking place now so can't check.
15:19:51 <fizzie> It had 2+3 people from Aalto+CSC unless I misremember.
15:20:27 <fizzie> I should plant *my* poster on top of yours, for revenge, I think.
15:21:29 <fizzie> A bit late now that all the "look at posters" breaks are over, except the one before sauna, and I don't think people will be too interested at posters at that time.
15:21:56 <fizzie> Oh well, at least I get to go home in an hour.
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15:53:35 <ais523> so, what's this channel's take on achievements being added to Visual Studio?
15:53:44 <ais523> originally it was a joke at Reddit, but Microsoft decided to run with it
15:54:26 <Ngevd> Like, "Global Greeter: you have made a 'Hello, World!' program!"
15:54:51 <ais523> Ngevd: it's along the lines of "create a class with a ten-level-deep inheritance hierarchy"
15:55:03 <ais523> or "build a project that takes over 10 minutes to build"
15:56:29 <Ngevd> Well, it'd just get in the way of people who actually have a need to use Visual Studio
15:57:07 <Ngevd> And be boring to the people who like achievements?
15:57:11 <ais523> besides, people who have a need to use Visual Studio, they have /Visual Studio/ to get in their way
15:57:50 <Ngevd> Visual Studio has one of the best XSLT editors I've come across, and I've came across around three.
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16:01:32 <Ngevd> My comment has disgusted ais523 so much his host closed the connection.
16:20:15 <Ngevd> Wow, there isn't a Nandypants implementation
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16:25:34 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 4 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
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17:01:08 <fizzie> If what I saw on another channel is right, there's also a "Go To Hell" achievement for using 'goto', and something for putting more than five curse words in the same source file.
17:04:59 <ais523> oh, Symantec were hacked and the source code to Norton was leaked
17:05:17 <ais523> could be a good way to make the computers of a bunch of hackers unusable
17:06:02 <fizzie> I think Schneier blogged about this.
17:06:11 <fizzie> "Hackers stole some source code to Symantec's products. We don't know what was stolen or how recent the code is -- the company is, of course, minimizing the story -- but it's hard to get worked up about this."
17:06:12 <ais523> it wouldn't surprise me
17:06:44 <ais523> fizzie: I don't think it massively affects Symantec customers directly, but it does rather embarrass the company
17:07:20 <fizzie> Yes, due to line length worries I omitted the third sentence, which ends "-- but most likely Symantec's biggest problem is public embarrassment."
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17:31:54 <Sgeo> elliott still hasn't come back here
17:32:03 <ais523> I've seen him post elsewhere, though
17:32:21 <ais523> and he was on StackOverflow 10 minutes ago
17:32:37 <ais523> if you read this, elliott, best of luck in your new addiction ;)
17:32:37 <Sgeo> He's in #haskell
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17:37:23 <HalfTauRSquared> wtf is http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Category_talk:Languages
17:38:04 <ais523> HalfTauRSquared: a blank page ;)
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17:47:26 <fizzie> ais523: Reputation-hunting leaves no time for #esoteric shenanigans, I suppose.
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17:48:19 <fizzie> What, 8372! It was something like six-seven thousand a while ago.
17:50:24 <kallisti> need to double every consonant
17:50:39 <HalfTauRSquared> (cur) (last) 23:56, 7 March 2008 Elliott (Talk | contribs) (Apologies for polluting the global namespace. I think I can embed the SKI calculus into MediaWiki.)
17:51:05 <ais523> HalfTauRSquared: no, it didn't
17:51:15 <ais523> MediaWiki dislikes recursive templates
17:53:54 * kallisti has attempted similar things and discovered that it's not possible without recursion.
17:59:06 <Sgeo> kallisti, you didn't double the s's
17:59:11 <Sgeo> elliottllessssnnessss
17:59:26 <Sgeo> So double them again
18:00:00 <Sgeo> elllliottttlllllessssnnnnessss
18:00:47 <kallisti> eelllliioottttlllleessssnnnneessss
18:01:05 <kallisti> !swedish eelllliioottttlllleessssnnnneessss
18:01:08 <EgoBot> eelllleeiuuttttlllleessssnnnneessss
18:01:20 <ais523> ^bf ,[..,]!elliottlessness
18:01:21 <fungot> eelllliioottttlleessssnneessss
18:01:24 <EgoBot> vhet is thees? Bork Bork Bork!
18:02:23 <EgoBot> sffffffffffffffffedeesh
18:02:37 <kallisti> !sffedeesh what is this I don't even?
18:02:38 <EgoBot> fhet is zeees I doooon't iffffffffee-a-a-a? Bork Bork Bork! Bork Bork Bork! Bork Bork Bork! Bork Bork Bork! Bork Bork Bork! Bork Bork Bork! Bork Bork Bork! Bork Bork Bork! Bork Bork Bork! Bork Bork Bork! Bork Bork Bork! Bork Bork Bork! Bork Bork Bork! Bork Bork Bork! Bork Bork Bork!
18:02:43 <EgoBot> eelllleeeeuuuuttttlllleessssnnnneessss
18:03:44 <kallisti> !sffedeesh ????????????????????????????//
18:03:45 <EgoBot> ????????????????????????????//
18:03:52 <kallisti> !sffedeesh whar????????????????????????????
18:03:53 <EgoBot> fher???????????????????????????? Bork Bork Bork! Bork Bork Bork! Bork Bork Bork! Bork Bork Bork! Bork Bork Bork! Bork Bork Bork! Bork Bork Bork! Bork Bork Bork! Bork Bork Bork! Bork Bork Bork! Bork Bork Bork! Bork Bork Bork! Bork Bork Bork! Bork Bork Bork! Bork Bork Bork!
18:05:30 <fungot> <CTCP>.. #"&%)(,+/.215487;:>=A@DCGFJIMLPOSRVUYX\[_^baedhgkjnmqptswvzy}|<CTCP>
18:08:47 <fungot> HalfTauRSquared: a not boring way, build a way up the echeladder a while. don't give a shit in the veil.
18:09:03 <fungot> HalfTauRSquared: but it is your journey i am a fucking veteran of the game in the first place. you wonder what it does?"
18:10:20 <ais523> ^bf +.,[.,]+.!ACTION hasn't been insulated against being asked to do CTCPs yet
18:10:21 * fungot hasn't been insulated against being asked to do CTCPs yet
18:12:23 <ais523> HalfTauRSquared: you're in a UTC-5 timezone
18:12:29 <ais523> (I figured that out via CTCP)
18:12:36 <ais523> and you're using ChatZilla
18:12:48 <ais523> those are the main ones that clients actually respond to
18:13:00 <ais523> there are a few that are defined but nobody cares about
18:21:56 * Sgeo assumes that fungot is talking in MSPA style
18:21:56 <fungot> Sgeo: a not boring way, build a way up the echeladder a while. it should be hours before you have to connect to the internet and lead him, rose, did you just make your room lousy wise, a distinction in men that would forever.
18:22:14 <Sgeo> Or just Homestuck style
18:22:16 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck* ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
18:23:21 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
18:23:25 <ais523> fungot: I like this one
18:23:25 <fungot> ais523: mr president, ever since the treaty of amsterdam, and contrary to the commitments set out in the maastricht treaty.
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18:41:42 <ais523> @unpl you $ (just . (.)) $ use . (point free) $ (. style)
18:41:42 <lambdabot> (you (just (\ b c -> use (point free (b c)))) (\ d s -> d (style s)))
18:56:19 <Sgeo> Were you just randomly throwing things like that in?
18:56:24 <Sgeo> To see what would happen?
18:56:53 <ais523> someone said it in another channel as a joke
18:57:06 <ais523> so I decided to unpl it to show that the alternative was not much better ;)
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19:07:48 <fizzie> CTCP CLIENTINFO will tell what other things the client will answer for.
19:08:10 <fizzie> 21:07 [ircnet] CTCP CLIENTINFO reply from fizzie: PING VERSION TIME USERINFO CLIENTINFO
19:09:03 <ais523> [CTCP] Received CTCP-CLIENTINFO reply from ais523: ACTION CLIENTINFO DCC PING TIME VERSION.
19:09:22 <ais523> heh at ACTION being there
19:09:37 <fizzie> DCC is also something whatever answered for me seemed to omit.
19:10:32 <Deewiant> irssi gives me the same as fizzie's reply, so presumably it was that
19:10:40 <fizzie> Oh, I've only got irssi connected at the moment; was wondering why no XChat reply.
19:12:01 <fizzie> Not that XChat seems to be answering now either. Oh well.
19:32:18 <Gregor> wtf, Facebook breakage.
19:32:37 <Gregor> It's telling me that two people I don't know like my wall post, and when I click that link, it brings me to a message that says "This content is currently unavailable"
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19:54:06 <Sgeo> Gregor, maybe they blocked you or deleted their accounts?
19:54:12 <Sgeo> How long ago was the wall post?
19:54:38 <Gregor> There /is/ no wall post.
19:55:16 <Sgeo> o.O I thought you were saying clicking the users said that they were unavailable
19:55:36 <Gregor> No, clicking the notification, which should go to the wall post (so I can know what wall post it refers to) goes to that.
19:55:56 <Sgeo> Clearly you sleep-delete stuff
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20:07:08 <Gregor> And before that, I share it with people I don't know? Somehow?
20:07:15 <Gregor> And then they like it AFTER I deleted it?
20:14:32 <zzo38> Like what? Delete what?
20:17:25 -!- HalfTauRSquared has changed nick to pir^2.
20:41:24 <Gregor> WTF TWO MORE PEOPLE LIKED THE PHANTOM POST
20:47:10 <kallisti> "To promote prosperity, creativity, entrepreneurship, and innovation by combating the theft of U.S. property, and for other purposes."
21:19:40 -!- pir^2 has changed nick to PiRSquared17|afk.
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21:39:16 <zzo38> I doubt that combating the theft of U.S. property will promote prosperity, creativity, entrepreneurship, and innovation
21:40:20 <itidus21> basically it concerns the creation and distribution of bitstreams
21:40:25 <Ngevd> kallisti, is the point of Portal Chess to be COMPLETELY AMAZING?
21:41:51 <itidus21> what makes matters worse is the use of computer data to control those without computers
21:42:28 <itidus21> basically i think i can assume the laws are biased towards anyone who owns computer hardware
21:42:32 <Ngevd> kallisti, because I want to sign up to playtest
21:42:52 <itidus21> not just sopa and pipa but all modern laws
21:43:14 <Ngevd> itidus21, did you learn Law from the same place you learnt Lambda Calculus?
21:43:27 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus21, if you don't own computer hardware, SOPA... doesn't affect you, at least directly.
21:43:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Ngevd, please stop I have a friend that does that and my ability to not punch him in the face is worn thin.
21:44:26 <Ngevd> Playtest Portal Chess?
21:44:58 <itidus21> what will happen is society will transform more and more so that people need computers
21:45:09 <itidus21> whereas once upon a time people didn't need computers
21:45:35 <kallisti> Ngevd: I still feels that the prism unit is kind of bad.
21:45:43 <itidus21> one interesting way this happens is more and more marketplaces exist only on the internet
21:46:22 <Ngevd> kallisti, I think the prism should be undirected and should split projectiles in a Y shape
21:46:56 <itidus21> they want you "to need to be" connected to the internet.. "to need to have" credit cards
21:47:04 <Phantom_Hoover> I think you guys should understand that chess only works because it's extremely minimalistic.
21:47:05 <kallisti> as far as arrows being immune to projectiles I think this can be combatted by effective use of portals to relocate them, still it's difficult to actually capture them.
21:47:22 <kallisti> Phantom_Hoover: yes that is part of the appeal to its strategy.
21:47:26 <Ngevd> Phantom_Hoover, chess is a lot less minimalistic than draughts
21:47:29 <zzo38> itidus21: I have ideas partially fixing some of these problems, making my own business when I am able to do so. Everything work with postal mail, payment in cash, no internet require, and so on. Everything non-DRM, etc
21:47:58 <Ngevd> Phantom_Hoover, and yet is much more successful
21:48:41 <zzo38> So that everyone that pays by credit card and so on has to pay extra service fee
21:48:44 <kallisti> Phantom_Hoover: chess is nice because each of the pieces complement and each other nicely. They each serve a specific role and must work within those constraints. I'm trying to emulate that to an extent. I don't think I've designed portal chess with the notion that, if I add as much wacky shit as possible, I'll have a fun game.
21:48:49 <itidus21> zzo38: i just label myself insane and call it a day
21:49:23 <kallisti> which is why I don't think I really like the idea of splitting projectiles into two paths.
21:49:38 <kallisti> it simply becomes too complex when you consider the possibilities of loops.
21:49:49 <zzo38> itidus21: Labeling yourself insane is not sufficient (nor is it necessary; but that isn't the point).
21:49:55 <Ngevd> Then I would suggest a different name for the piece
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21:50:25 <itidus21> its getting ((& more) more) difficult to explain to older adults why i don't need a job or an income
21:51:11 <monqy> whats a ((& more) more)
21:51:26 <itidus21> supposedly the buddha suggests to not try to delianate the self
21:51:47 <kallisti> itidus21: delineate? the buddha suggests there is no such thing as self.
21:52:19 <zzo38> The self is really just a part of the universe as a whole and is of no use otherwise. Same with everything else.
21:52:24 <kallisti> Ngevd: I was considering augmenting the pawns perhaps, but perhaps they're still useful as it stands
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21:52:58 <kallisti> itidus21 says something stupid, people call him out on it, itidus21 claims he is trolling. classic.
21:53:15 <Phantom_Hoover> <itidus21> its getting ((& more) more) difficult to explain to older adults why i don't need a job or an income
21:53:23 <itidus21> kallisti, on account of how you pay far too much attention to my posts it would be very bad for you to hear much more of my comments on that
21:53:26 <Ngevd> kallisti, the pawns are good as it stands
21:53:26 <Phantom_Hoover> I am rather curious as to why you don't need a job or an income.
21:53:31 <itidus21> since i am not sane, i cannot possibly inspire sanity
21:53:41 <kallisti> Phantom_Hoover: disability, I would imagine.
21:54:04 <kallisti> he probably doesn't like to explain that he's on disability funds, or something. that was my guess.
21:54:13 <kallisti> otherwise, yes, it makes no sense.
21:54:26 <oklopol> itidus21: if you don't need money yourself, you could work and give *me* money
21:54:32 <Ngevd> Maybe he's a hermit with no worldly possessions?
21:54:48 <kallisti> Ngevd: pawns could perhaps move like kings??
21:55:02 <Ngevd> Phantom_Hoover, nah, a rock
21:55:04 <monqy> itidus21: your family dies. now what.
21:55:05 <itidus21> Phantom_Hoover: my brother shares his connection with me, and gives me hand me down pc parts
21:55:09 <monqy> itidus21: or do you plan to die first
21:55:20 <Ngevd> kallisti, pawns are good!
21:55:31 <Ngevd> Perhaps keep prisms as queense?
21:56:34 <itidus21> all i lack is an offline social life or money to afford a social life
21:56:55 <kallisti> Ngevd: I was also thinking queens could be portals that connect to the opposing player's queen.
21:57:11 <Ngevd> kallisti, checks at start of game, not good
21:57:19 <itidus21> suffice to say that my irc experience is as good as anyone who is funded :D
21:57:40 <kallisti> portals have directions remember?
21:57:48 <kallisti> why would you point your queen at your king?
21:58:18 <Ngevd> Hehe I just thought of a potential play
21:58:20 <kallisti> but yes it's likely not a good idea.
21:59:01 <kallisti> I thought about leaving queens alone. not sure what ramifications that would have.
21:59:09 <oklopol> money to afford a social life? :D
21:59:33 <kallisti> Ngevd: for the original idea I could rename them as "lenses", also I was considering giving them a direction rather than being directionless, as it simplified interface requirements.
21:59:42 <monqy> that's how friendship works right
22:00:10 <itidus21> i remember in school people used to joke about the word pay-friend
22:00:57 <itidus21> oklopol: well something as simple as a restaurant visit, bowling alley, cinema, pub.. none is free
22:01:05 <zzo38> I have to (truthfully, of course) convince the people that my ways of doing business are save energy and stuff a lot more. In addition to respecting your privacy, etc
22:01:34 <monqy> the money is for populating the bin
22:02:06 <zzo38> There is an article in some issue of 2600 called "Smart Regression". There are a lot of informative articles in any issue
22:02:10 <kallisti> Ngevd: dunno I think lenses are pretty solid (and you seem to mainly object the name, which was poorly chosen)
22:02:54 <Ngevd> This needs testing
22:03:10 <kallisti> Ngevd: they could move as queens, have a direction, and have some kind of capture movement that is more limited than their normal movement
22:03:40 <Ngevd> I have an idea for capturing
22:03:54 <Ngevd> Nevermind, it's kinda lame
22:04:19 <kallisti> yes the idea is to not make yet another lame chess variant. :P
22:04:28 <kallisti> the game Ultima for example is basically just a bunch of random ideas thrown together.
22:04:47 <kallisti> there's a piece that captures by moving away from a piece adjacent to it....
22:04:57 <kallisti> and another that captures a piece in the same way that the piece captures others.
22:05:03 <kallisti> these aren't very good pieces.
22:05:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Meanwhile you have a bunch of pieces based around the "OMG wouldn't it be cool if..." principle.
22:05:42 <kallisti> Phantom_Hoover: I have one of those. the portal.
22:05:56 <Phantom_Hoover> At least continuous chess was based around a single "OMG wouldn't it be cool if...".
22:06:23 <kallisti> Phantom_Hoover: bawwwwwwwwwwww
22:06:39 <kallisti> go cry about it somewhere else kthx.
22:07:03 <Phantom_Hoover> I love the part where you confuse that for bitterness as if continuous chess was my precious result of years of work.
22:07:36 <kallisti> you're just not being very helpful
22:08:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, because you've been talking non-stop about this godawful chess variant for nearly a fortnight.
22:08:48 <Ngevd> I suggest the creation of #esoteric-chess-variants
22:08:59 <monqy> then what will happen here
22:09:11 <Ngevd> Esoteric programming languages
22:09:17 <Ngevd> #esoteric-chess-variants
22:09:23 <Ngevd> I meant to type join
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22:09:33 <kallisti> Phantom_Hoover: sorry I'll try to have conversations somewhere else. resume your on-topic banter.
22:09:36 <zzo38> I also have a channel called +CHESS in my IRC server. It is already there, for discussing chess and variants.
22:09:46 <Sgeo> Why + and not # ?
22:09:53 <Sgeo> Is + the "no operators" thing?
22:10:14 <zzo38> Sgeo: Modeless (which implies no operators)
22:10:33 <Sgeo> Clearly, we should all go spam the channel
22:10:48 <kallisti> also, has it really been 2 weeks?
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22:11:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Alternately, kallisti could go and discuss Portal Chess-- wait they're isomorphic.
22:11:27 <zzo38> If you do you will be forcibly disconnected from the server... even if they are channels you make up yourself
22:12:12 <kallisti> Phantom_Hoover: no have I been talking about portal chess for two weeks
22:12:19 <kallisti> the idea has been around for at least a few months now.
22:12:27 <kallisti> I am just working on it again.
22:12:28 <zzo38> But small spam might not be considered spam
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22:12:45 <kallisti> spam = anything Phantom_Hoover doesn't like
22:13:31 <Sgeo> Portal time travel chess!
22:13:39 <Sgeo> (I remember seeing a time travel chess variant)
22:14:05 <monqy> chess variant where the pieces are really really heavy
22:14:05 <Sgeo> Hmm, there may be several
22:14:07 <zzo38> Sgeo: There are more than one.
22:14:48 <Sgeo> http://www.wgosa.org/ttchsrules.htm this is probably the one I was thinking of
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23:23:21 <Ngevd> I've just realised how join works with functions
23:23:33 <Ngevd> (->) r is a monad, right?
23:24:00 <monqy> isomorphic to Reader yes
23:24:09 <Ngevd> And join :: m (m a) -> m a
23:24:34 <Ngevd> I knew that, I mean I've just realised /why/ it works
23:25:10 <Ngevd> If we consider m to be (->) r, that gives us (->) r ((->) r a) -> (->) r a
23:25:35 <Ngevd> Or, in infix form, (r -> r -> a) -> r -> a
23:25:36 <monqy> it's easier to use sections even if it's not Real Haskell
23:25:42 <monqy> infix and sections
23:26:19 <Ngevd> And that is how it makes sense for me
23:28:21 <Ngevd> Now, ap :: m (a -> b) -> m a -> m b
23:28:51 <Ngevd> ap :: (r -> a -> b) -> (r -> a) -> r -> b
23:29:20 <Ngevd> This is everything much clearer
23:29:39 <Ngevd> join :: [[a]] -> a
23:29:49 <Ngevd> ap :: [a -> b] -> [a] -> [b]
23:31:00 <Ngevd> join :: Maybe (Maybe a) -> a
23:31:21 <Ngevd> Somewhere back there
23:31:46 <Ngevd> ap :: Maybe (a -> b) -> Maybe a -> Maybe b
23:33:09 <Ngevd> Now, with (->) r being a monad, that gives const, id, (.), flip, join, and ap as MIBBLII's combinators
23:35:16 <Ngevd> > ap (.) (join (.)) succ (ord '\NUL')
23:35:28 <Ngevd> One of my esolangs
23:36:09 <monqy> bonus: const is return: if you're feeleng that way
23:44:10 <kallisti> I like how all the complexity theory articles on Wikipedia have to account for the fact that P = NP is not proven or disproven.
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