< 1327449639 316575 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1327449726 131871 :SgeoN1!~AndChat@137.125.158.217 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327449749 68602 :SgeoN1!~AndChat@137.125.158.217 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The course I'm currently enrolled in seems to be sucking VMware's dick < 1327449812 530079 :SgeoN1!~AndChat@137.125.158.217 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is apparently an authorized course towards a VMware Certified Professional thing < 1327449826 369571 :SgeoN1!~AndChat@137.125.158.217 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1327449847 87361 :SgeoN1!~AndChat@137.125.158.217 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327450384 501917 :SgeoN1!~AndChat@137.125.158.217 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The book has some obnoxious DRM < 1327450420 364037 :SgeoN1!~AndChat@137.125.158.217 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Requires certain software, grand total of two registrations, after that it's locked out. And I can only buy the book once. < 1327451072 782016 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-227-125.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Friendly reminder, you're in a course of study with as much use and merit as a degree in basket-weaving. < 1327451096 244707 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey we all need baskets sometimes. < 1327451110 842419 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't exaggerate its usefulness. < 1327451266 946450 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i mean i don't < 1327451281 48395 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the heck would i put in a a < 1327451287 98378 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :and when i say a < 1327451289 612286 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean basket. < 1327451316 771235 :SgeoN1!~AndChat@137.125.158.217 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't get a BS easy job with this certification? < 1327451347 162842 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :who knows, i only skimmed the backlog < 1327451378 855022 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but pikhq is a basket expert, he should know < 1327451631 707766 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: The handbasket to Hell < 1327451645 862911 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-227-125.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm referring to your entire "IT" degree. < 1327451661 965499 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-227-125.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which basically doesn't matter. < 1327452349 17814 :SgeoN1!~AndChat@137.125.158.217 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: update < 1327452412 535932 :SgeoN1!~AndChat@137.125.158.217 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell elliott Update < 1327452412 697733 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1327452416 167973 :Klisz!~Klisz@c-67-161-147-186.hsd1.co.comcast.net NICK :unelsone < 1327452427 356063 :unelsone!~Klisz@c-67-161-147-186.hsd1.co.comcast.net NICK :Klisz < 1327452596 755967 :SgeoN1!~AndChat@137.125.158.217 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1327452614 285053 :SgeoN1!~AndChat@137.125.158.217 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327452647 508166 :Klisz!~Klisz@c-67-161-147-186.hsd1.co.comcast.net NICK :Ienpw_IV < 1327452733 295579 :Ienpw_IV!~Klisz@c-67-161-147-186.hsd1.co.comcast.net NICK :Klisz < 1327453937 804820 :SgeoN1!~AndChat@137.125.158.217 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1327453955 217611 :SgeoN1!~AndChat@137.125.158.217 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327454699 93898 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu NICK :sebbu < 1327455051 146735 :SgeoN1!~AndChat@137.125.158.217 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1327455055 214143 :SgeoN2!~AndChat@137.125.158.217 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327455391 794583 :SgeoN2!~AndChat@137.125.158.217 QUIT :Quit: Bye < 1327456790 467936 :pir^2!~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is Iota defined as being lazy? < 1327456901 521317 :kallisti!~eris@h247.16.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that I'm aware of. < 1327456954 296307 :kallisti!~eris@h247.16.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe it has call-by-name semantics though < 1327457046 669521 :pir^2!~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1327457079 245144 :kallisti!~eris@h247.16.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, call-by-name in some sense < 1327457084 359325 :kallisti!~eris@h247.16.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's essentially just term rewriting. < 1327457153 528355 :kallisti!~eris@h247.16.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :DateFuck is an esolang designed for use in creating text-based dating sims and text adventures. It is (probably) Turing complete, and consists entirely of printing, xor, and implied jumps. It contains no instructions, and has no data storage, save from the program counter itself. < 1327457158 576773 :kallisti!~eris@h247.16.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i... < 1327457522 381244 :pir^2!~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not clear to me how it works? < 1327457533 415488 :pir^2!~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does "Hello Sailor" mean? < 1327457551 994093 :pir^2!~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, got it < 1327459244 770635 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like the sort of language i came here to learn about :D < 1327459253 336692 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 NICK :itidus21 < 1327459277 38623 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i really need a new nick < 1327459286 181802 :kallisti!~eris@h247.16.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :funkmasterflex < 1327459288 169447 :kallisti!~eris@h247.16.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :good nick. < 1327459294 1207 :kallisti!~eris@h247.16.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ifunkmasterflex < 1327459319 571951 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :its just that a) it's a copy of a video game characters name, and b) it has a meaningless number tacked on < 1327459341 944050 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise i have no issues with it < 1327459375 886561 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: lets leave it up to your language bot < 1327459401 242533 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does it work again? < 1327459433 477956 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i want to ask it for 50 english-like words < 1327459468 864371 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :with a maximum length of 9 if possible but not a big deal < 1327459536 237568 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`log words 50 < 1327459569 444754 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :2012-01-04.txt:22:10:36: `words 50 < 1327459574 590433 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1327459592 621997 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`words 50 < 1327459599 917941 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :perre mei fingresem innoshiel mani integul hetkelectiv douth lupatalappr veratho matu phylatbe arally cabinder bepnveeet heim ishe kyn enfessle krangencilitu ved theadwhoorl femon stocya meek < 1327459614 979500 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i won't worry about the english or the 9 < 1327459636 416747 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`words 50 < 1327459642 400075 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :mar bal nontrem hoot liganderade orick nior whelm yer okton depio inflnergerwin penda ere fruisition fuz bergi volk cognie jollilite consobe colon cally aste firma < 1327459649 499390 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know its just 25 but so what < 1327459850 41915 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: when i suggested the esolangs for the language bot i didn't think about how they sort of miss the point of the project. so it won't hurt my feelings if they are removed < 1327460043 743294 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if i was going to change my id i would certainly use one of those words but then noone would know who i was < 1327460518 88320 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.33 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1327462436 684642 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327462562 888066 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1327462571 159375 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327462623 605286 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-238-44.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1327462792 295495 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-227-125.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1327462926 548371 :Frooxius_!~chatzilla@85.162.108.21 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327462999 396068 :Frooxius_!~chatzilla@85.162.108.21 QUIT :Client Quit < 1327463040 616721 :Frooxius!~chatzilla@ip-85-161-249-8.eurotel.cz QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1327463062 573800 :Frooxius!~chatzilla@85.162.108.21 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327463105 490658 :Frooxius!~chatzilla@85.162.108.21 QUIT :Client Quit < 1327464369 625580 :kallisti!~eris@h247.16.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :is perfect play still possible in a game with imperfect information? < 1327464391 975457 :kallisti!~eris@h247.16.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :if so, wouldn't it simply be a lucky guess? < 1327464563 932321 :Frooxius!~chatzilla@85.162.55.215 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327464609 483533 :Frooxius!~chatzilla@85.162.55.215 QUIT :Client Quit < 1327464625 464872 :Frooxius!~chatzilla@85.162.55.215 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327464643 796368 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Paper, rock, scissors, bomb. Paper beats rock, rock beats scissors, scissors beats paper, bomb beats paper, rock, scissors, and in event of a tie with two bombs, taller person wins. You are the taller person. Is there a perfect play? < 1327464698 108661 :kallisti!~eris@h247.16.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :..yes < 1327464710 313804 :kallisti!~eris@h247.16.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :however < 1327464728 684969 :kallisti!~eris@h247.16.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the lack of information really does not affect the outcome in any way. < 1327464734 705505 :kallisti!~eris@h247.16.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that counts as a trivial case. < 1327464806 174285 :kallisti!~eris@h247.16.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather, I should say < 1327464811 972920 :kallisti!~eris@h247.16.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it affects the outcome, but not your chances of winning < 1327464841 924843 :kallisti!~eris@h247.16.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you /could/ choose rock paper or scissors < 1327464865 143622 :kallisti!~eris@h247.16.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :which would then mean that the imperfect information affects the outcome of the game < 1327465132 335552 :pir^2!~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 QUIT :Quit: Bye! < 1327465729 202274 :zak007!zoubair.ar@105.151.71.224 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327465768 477040 :Frooxius!~chatzilla@85.162.55.215 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1327466668 302530 :Frooxius!~chatzilla@ip-85-163-27-5.eurotel.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1327466809 131628 :zak007!zoubair.ar@105.151.71.224 PART :#esoteric < 1327466899 113881 :DCliche!~Klisz@c-67-161-147-186.hsd1.co.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1327467088 683585 :Klisz!~Klisz@c-67-161-147-186.hsd1.co.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1327467238 775647 :clog!~nef@bespin.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1327467398 392432 :Nisstyre!~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1327469030 337810 :Frooxius_!~chatzilla@85.162.105.61 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327469137 339113 :Frooxius!~chatzilla@ip-85-163-27-5.eurotel.cz QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1327469147 294813 :Frooxius_!~chatzilla@85.162.105.61 NICK :Frooxius < 1327469490 294478 :Frooxius!~chatzilla@85.162.105.61 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1327469673 912224 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, update < 1327469869 123351 :Frooxius!~chatzilla@95.129.103.254 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327470050 413919 :clog!~nef@bespin.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1327470666 159193 :kallisti!~eris@h247.16.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh cool < 1327470672 500647 :kallisti!~eris@h247.16.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't realize the negation of a biconditional is an xor < 1327470680 741666 :kallisti!~eris@h247.16.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's pretty easy to see now. < 1327471004 866133 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hehe, just a few hours ago i had a facepalmy moment when wondering whether Haskell’s Data.Bool doesn’t have a xor/nxor and then immediately realizing nxor’s (==). < 1327471405 396779 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-238-44.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1327471405 558767 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-238-44.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Quit: Reconnecting < 1327471881 143409 :DCliche!~Klisz@c-67-161-147-186.hsd1.co.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1327472256 986873 :kallisti!~eris@h247.16.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait what how do I write a truth table for a quantified statement < 1327472259 873261 :kallisti!~eris@h247.16.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :over the real numbers.... < 1327472279 896079 :kallisti!~eris@h247.16.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1327472285 856848 :kallisti!~eris@h247.16.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I misread truth VALUE as truth TABLE < 1327472288 355622 :kallisti!~eris@h247.16.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was like "...whut?" < 1327473123 423303 :kallisti!~eris@h247.16.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION invents an esolang that RUNS FASTER THAN ASSEMBLY.
< 1327473168 974876 :kallisti!~eris@h247.16.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :this may seem like a nonsensical statement, but that's because you're stuck in your and haven't considered that you could think of it in terms of < 1327473210 121202 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't know that I will but until I can find me. A girl who'll stay and won't play games behind me. This is a weird song. To be my happy song. The lyrics don't fit me. Or why I'm happy. < 1327473286 935032 :kallisti!~eris@h247.16.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : I... < 1327473341 366048 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although the lyrics aren't in opposition to why I'm happy. < 1327473346 480446 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're just irrelevant. < 1327474075 724430 :augur_!~augur@208.58.5.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327474213 283276 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1327474334 303702 :myndzi\!myndzi@c-67-168-184-168.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1327474638 550778 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: I think the "perfect play" term generalizes to imperfect information games with outcome -> expected value of outcome, but it's of course a matter of definition. (Some might argue that it's not exactly "perfect" when you could've done better in some particular instance, though.) < 1327474900 173563 :kallisti!~eris@h247.16.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: right. < 1327474909 151825 :kallisti!~eris@h247.16.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose "perfect play" is more like "most optimal play" in that sense < 1327475245 518602 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, given 2 finite players, and sufficiently complex game, each player can specialize at a different strategy < 1327475289 641804 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is probably seen in the case of something like jousting < 1327475303 477971 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :where a players strategy is directly manifested as a program < 1327475416 628987 :kallisti!~eris@h247.16.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not really important to the defintion in imperfect information games though. < 1327475450 912476 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess if you start haggling over the real-world meaning of the word "perfect", you might also complain that even in games of perfect information, you can do better than the "perfect play" against a non-optimally playing opponent. < 1327475473 459805 :kallisti!~eris@h247.16.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes < 1327475484 647549 :kallisti!~eris@h247.16.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless it's something like tic-tac-toe < 1327475489 110277 :kallisti!~eris@h247.16.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :where the perfect play is always "perfect" < 1327475523 281730 :kallisti!~eris@h247.16.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but something more complex could lead to a faster or more generally "better" victory than the perfect play. < 1327475665 219446 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should start playing Go again < 1327475691 65816 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even in tic-tac-toe you could have an opponent with a strategy which forces a tie always, except when you do something "suboptimal" in which case he lets you win. < 1327476247 147088 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the way i'm imagining this is, firstly equal perfect play [____ player 1____|____player 2____] < 1327476278 936801 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then if one is suboptimal the other one "gains ground" [_ player 1__|______player 2_______] < 1327476316 774418 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric : [_ p1__|__________player 2__________] < 1327476407 372971 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in an actual battle to the death, say, you couldn't really win much more efficiently than the opponent commiting suicide as soon as the battle begins < 1327476437 434428 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but my math skill is not enough to really grasp the abstract concepts < 1327476458 396276 :kallisti!~eris@h247.16.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's probably more that you haven't actually read anything about it. < 1327476462 525479 :kallisti!~eris@h247.16.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :than your skillz. < 1327476468 963116 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1327476473 546330 :kallisti!~eris@h247.16.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, that's why I don't know anything about it. :P < 1327476739 2707 :kallisti!~eris@h247.16.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION doesn't really understand the distinction between characterization and definition between two mathematical theorems.
< 1327477020 44557 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in other words what i'm saying is that given an identical time and space it will never be possible to have a general solution as optimized as well as a specific solution < 1327477046 430951 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless your time and space has good neighbours < 1327477123 92723 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what i am really talking about here is the complexity of describing a perfect play :P < 1327477214 270009 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Kolmogorov complexity of a perfect play < 1327477261 620839 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :after all, you must all admit that it is easier to describe the worst-case play of a game than to describe the perfect play < 1327477324 143685 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the worst case play might be something like "select a move at random(or pseudo random) from available moves" < 1327478387 873811 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Kolmogorov complexity of perfect play is not very high for many games, either. For something like chess, you get a bound from: "The value of a game state is: if game is finished, 1 if you won, 0 if it's a draw, -1 if you lost; if not, it's the maximum of the negated values of the states after all possible moves. Select the legal move which gives the state with the highest value." < 1327479478 265921 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: for one perfect play perhaps not, but for someone to have a description of all perfect plays < 1327480168 746435 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am interested in time&space constrained strategies for games as they emphasise the value of specialized solutions over general solutions < 1327480453 93490 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can imagine a brainfuck program could be devised which took inputs like e7-e5,f7-f5, and responded with output of the same kind < 1327480458 465384 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which could actually play chess < 1327480489 214759 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wouldn't want to code it though < 1327481105 915353 :_Slereah!~butt@ANantes-259-1-198-197.w90-49.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1327481217 592456 :Slereah!~butt@ANantes-259-1-213-78.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1327482442 254206 :kallisti!~eris@h247.16.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can imagine a brainfuck program that solves the halting problem. < 1327482693 484161 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :^bf +++++++[>+++++++<-]>.! do you halt or not? < 1327482693 645870 :fungot!~fungot@a91-152-37-146.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 < 1327482702 793961 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, it's perhaps not a very general solution. < 1327482805 498799 :kallisti!~eris@h247.16.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: unless you can prove that is the only possible program < 1327482818 880669 :kallisti!~eris@h247.16.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be an interesting vector of research. < 1327484276 843837 :jix!~jix@dronf.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1327484316 591194 :jix!~jix@dronf.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1327485059 476322 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327485966 310633 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey QUIT :Quit: The Other Game < 1327487847 565962 :aloril!~aloril@84.249.126.153 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1327488584 681248 :aloril!~aloril@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe7ef900-153.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1327488667 773934 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1327489046 876283 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1327489656 273540 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : if i was going to change my id i would certainly use one of those words but then noone would know who i was <-- except I *MWAHAHAHA* < 1327489679 100461 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and others capable of using /whois. < 1327489768 309481 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :04:06:09: is perfect play still possible in a game with imperfect information? < 1327489768 513289 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :04:06:31: if so, wouldn't it simply be a lucky guess? < 1327489770 362884 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :see "mixed strategies" < 1327489800 256726 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for rps it's simply choosing randomly, though) < 1327489964 710631 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :depends < 1327489980 281050 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i looked it up once < 1327490006 408793 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :rps = rock/paper/scissors < 1327490013 166675 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in real life professional rps games, the gestures aren't completely unique < 1327490038 949048 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well against fallible humans, you can do better than random. < 1327490054 573408 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :but against someone else who chooses entirely randomly, you cannot. < 1327490062 196797 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think the site i looked at was something like rpscoach.com < 1327490119 708397 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and in a tournament random play might lose overall because other strategies do better against humans < 1327490154 296145 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :once i made a rps game stylized after street fighter < 1327490158 944701 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(more than 2 player tournament, that is) < 1327490192 764128 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the micro level, it was just normal rps < 1327490208 965913 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but on the macro level, points were scored for specific sequences of r,p,s < 1327490226 551577 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and losing a round meant a sequence failed < 1327490334 230503 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :reminds me of mediocrity < 1327490350 808606 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :where winning at one level means losing at the next < 1327490386 197593 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the sequecnes i came up with were quite clever < 1327490394 841818 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno if i kept the slip of paper < 1327490431 346060 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that hard disk died.. i must say HDD reliability is up these days < 1327490461 993876 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :winning at rrrrrrrr would probably take a while < 1327490498 137772 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was obvious for me when doing it to say, rrr is a sequence, likewise for ppp and sss < 1327490883 692480 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: The game "Portal 2" has these "gestures" you can do in the co-op mode; one of them is a RPS sequence; it's completely automatic, you don't get to choose the object. There's an achievement for three consecutive wins. I was wondering whether the gesture itself is actually random, or whether it prefers streaks, since in our N=8 test it generated the sequence 01111222 (where 0 is draw, 1 is win for player 1, and 2 is win for player 2), earning us both < 1327490938 702560 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :"earning us both" < 1327490992 580421 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :that achievement. < 1327491217 118649 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: hello < 1327491301 387280 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Most religions won't let me preach. Though that's because I'm female, not because I'm a genetically engineered talking wolf." < 1327491333 515054 :_Slereah!~butt@ANantes-259-1-198-197.w90-49.abo.wanadoo.fr PRIVMSG #esoteric :lolwat < 1327491338 66360 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds Freefally. < 1327491345 647995 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :correct. < 1327492510 573974 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I just hope this doesn't become another SRoMG mini-meme with multiple sci-fi and fantasy fandoms replacing the flag with their own favoured fictional factions." < 1327492523 411253 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :reverse psychology, anyone? < 1327492949 820835 :TeruFSX_!~quassel@71-210-150-147.mpls.qwest.net QUIT :Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds. < 1327492971 730899 :TeruFSX!~quassel@71-210-150-147.mpls.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1327494851 953022 :cheater!~cheater@dslb-084-057-001-153.pools.arcor-ip.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1327496069 772714 :FireFly!~firefly@firefly.xen.prgmr.com QUIT :Excess Flood < 1327496153 636715 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327496435 543600 :augur_!~augur@208.58.5.87 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1327496463 775020 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327496725 662265 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1327498218 990273 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.33 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327498748 331302 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327499441 612545 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1327499823 614842 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-29-127.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1327499824 32833 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-29-127.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Changing host < 1327499824 194901 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1327500060 457614 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1327500295 360949 :FireFly!~firefly@firefly.xen.prgmr.com QUIT :Excess Flood < 1327503962 903532 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327505269 503284 :TeruFSX_!~quassel@71-210-150-147.mpls.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1327505676 21374 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi QUIT :*.net *.split < 1327505677 119760 :Gregor!codu@codu.org QUIT :*.net *.split < 1327505677 300977 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com QUIT :*.net *.split < 1327505677 710125 :SimonRC_!~sc@fof.durge.org QUIT :*.net *.split < 1327505677 940954 :FireFly!~firefly@firefly.xen.prgmr.com QUIT :*.net *.split < 1327505678 102907 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.33 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1327505679 691317 :clog!~nef@bespin.org QUIT :*.net *.split < 1327505681 57775 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia QUIT :*.net *.split < 1327505682 488808 :TeruFSX!~quassel@71-210-150-147.mpls.qwest.net QUIT :*.net *.split < 1327505682 651127 :aloril!~aloril@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe7ef900-153.dhcp.inet.fi QUIT :*.net *.split < 1327505683 785861 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1327505684 607538 :Systemzwang!miekko@infa.abo.fi QUIT :*.net *.split < 1327505685 303903 :mtve!~mtve@65.98.99.53 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1327505685 575567 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1327505687 472680 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se QUIT :*.net *.split < 1327505688 104287 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@222.122.156.78 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1327506032 705719 :Systemzwang!miekko@infa.abo.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1327506063 539394 :kallisti!~eris@h247.16.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1327506082 716857 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of all the sides of the netsplit to be caught in... < 1327506277 865018 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1327506555 2123 :Gregor!codu@codu.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1327506806 450410 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.33 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327506913 205250 :clog!~nef@bespin.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1327506913 367535 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia JOIN :#esoteric < 1327506960 190125 :aloril!~aloril@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe7ef900-153.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1327506960 352039 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327506960 352184 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1327506960 352262 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@222.122.156.78 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327507595 534497 :kornbluth.freenode.net MODE #esoteric :+t < 1327507595 696628 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric > 1327507596 34002 NAMES :#esoteric < 1327508135 724071 :kallisti!~eris@h247.16.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net QUIT :Quit: Reconnecting < 1327508149 944309 :kallisti!~eris@h247.16.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1327508150 106380 :kallisti!~eris@h247.16.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net QUIT :Changing host < 1327508150 106527 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake JOIN :#esoteric < 1327508817 764146 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.33 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1327510897 894893 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1327511357 987496 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-6.opaltelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1327511410 816773 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-6.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello < 1327511414 725121 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-6.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I enjoyed the most recent xkcd < 1327511430 685536 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-6.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, I enjoyed the most recent, eg., Girl Genius much more < 1327511454 215355 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-6.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But an enjoyable xkcd is an exception and thus more notable < 1327511704 178553 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :... is there a single aspect to this comic that's even remotely amusing? < 1327511711 518939 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's bad even by XKCD's standards. < 1327511730 565237 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Dear future logreaders: It is to http://xkcd.com/1008/ that we refer) < 1327511750 654816 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's, err, about average for xkcd < 1327511753 175753 :_Slereah!~butt@ANantes-259-1-198-197.w90-49.abo.wanadoo.fr PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuck the logreaders < 1327511760 699125 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :...I feel like I should probably be getting how to prove this faster than I am... < 1327511764 362667 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-6.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clearly enjoyability is subjective; I enjoyed it for its subversion of a lame insult < 1327511769 943986 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it's under the section "trivial and vacuous proofs" < 1327511776 858788 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, 1007 made me laugh < 1327511781 310633 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :let x be a real number. prove that if x^3 - 5x - 1 is greater than or equal to 0, then (x-1)(x-3) is greater than or equal to -2 < 1327511793 136920 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :....is this like, obvious at first glance? < 1327511796 831953 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I'm not seeing it. :P < 1327511823 103867 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-6.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Try expanding (x-1)(x-3)+2? < 1327511834 208368 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes < 1327511839 798913 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was working on the implication side. < 1327511850 25054 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :which seemed like the right way to go. < 1327511931 942148 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what that gets me though. :P < 1327511966 524713 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah I see. < 1327511976 196135 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can use x^2 >= 0 < 1327512045 587630 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait... < 1327512047 602968 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :uuuugh < 1327512090 985606 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hm < 1327512347 417534 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.33 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327512794 4781 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1327513242 108222 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-6.opaltelecom.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1327513469 264027 :mtve!~mtve@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327513886 848312 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1327514096 417868 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@inportb/loli/cirno-chan QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1327517913 124697 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :...I had to relocate my lost knowlege of polynomial inequalities apparently < 1327517932 643410 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Observe that when (x-1)(x-3) = 0, x = 1 and x = 3. Given that (0-1)(0-3) = 3 >= 2, and (2-1)(2-3) = -1 >= -2, and (4-1)(4-3) = 3 >= 2; it follows that for all x in the set of real numbers, (x-1)(x-3) >= -1 < 1327517940 842102 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope that's enough. :P < 1327517953 441632 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably missing something really simple though. as the next section is much easier. < 1327519583 241060 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1327520979 34490 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@121-73-182-130.dsl.telstraclear.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1327520979 268099 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@121-73-182-130.dsl.telstraclear.net QUIT :Changing host < 1327520979 429658 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1327522296 163198 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327522947 406563 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :a "monadic" case statement would be nice. < 1327523168 798420 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1327523182 220551 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does C11 guarantee that '\n' > 0? < 1327524121 688403 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1327524410 421379 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, how would it work? < 1327524436 402233 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see it translating to essentially a bind to a lambda that contains the case statement < 1327524438 936277 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :mcase x of alts ≡ do { y <- x; case y of alts } --- like so? < 1327524444 977143 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1327524453 314309 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1327524454 36023 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Habit has that < 1327524466 863975 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would think you could probably integrate it into the do notation somehow. < 1327524473 975332 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of using some weird name like mcase < 1327524518 499984 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe < 1327524536 466805 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be easier if it were x -> y < 1327524542 513142 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something < 1327524559 990619 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :x -> case blah of ... < 1327524563 428095 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's kind of weird though < 1327524565 784718 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the frequenly suggested lambdacase extension would do it (one proposed syntax) like x >>= case of alts < 1327524591 36555 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*tly < 1327524648 248867 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. case of with no expression makes a function < 1327524709 714044 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not too bad. < 1327524727 341637 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and has possible uses besides do blocks < 1327524733 784932 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :however it kind of makes >>= not just an operator anymore < 1327524740 849704 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1327524741 454276 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1327524742 361184 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :nevermind < 1327524746 14127 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I misread. < 1327524759 117890 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes that would be good < 1327524759 714579 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah the x >>= part is not special < 1327524765 227617 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/4359 has a ghc patch for lambda-case < 1327524774 6207 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also a long discussion of the syntactic ramifications < 1327524788 402925 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :need moar record-syntax-currying < 1327524871 530737 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc lambda-case discussions tend to devolve into whether it should be merged with actual lambdas instead, and then syntax options become too damn many < 1327524906 137364 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, i haven't actually read the discussions, so i don't know if it's fruitful or just wadler's law wanking < 1327524918 462109 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :what would be wrong with "actual lambda case" < 1327524982 91970 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like how wadler's law provides a convenient precedent to ignore improvements to the language syntax. < 1327524993 94389 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well one thing is that pattern syntax works slightly different in situations where multiple arguments are allowed < 1327525023 15270 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you could just require an explicit \ between each case < 1327525027 718419 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :wadler's law doesn't say syntax is unimportant < 1327525037 10829 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means case and \ don't actually match completely in how patterns are written < 1327525038 992357 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :not explicitly no. < 1327525055 528116 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: um, so? :P < 1327525062 193475 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it matches function patterns < 1327525067 218746 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :which makes sense since lambdas are functions. < 1327525070 633354 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it says syntax is discussed disproportionately much for its importance < 1327525080 140478 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :really it just says syntax is discussed a lot < 1327525083 852398 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1327525161 388707 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think this is probably because the semantics of Haskell are fairly solid < 1327525168 294949 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :at this point. < 1327525200 989860 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of the language is just syntax over very simple semantics in the first place. < 1327525213 776504 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there's a lot to discuss. < 1327525274 950249 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i disagree with every part of that < 1327525322 440255 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the semantics of Haskell are not that simple, and since we're talking about language extensions, they get even less simple < 1327525396 645525 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and Wadler came up with his law in 1996, when the semantics of Haskell were far from solid < 1327525403 985793 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't think the law is particular to Haskell < 1327525406 557440 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1327525412 394055 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an instance of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson's_Law_of_Triviality < 1327525421 500906 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's easy to have an opinion about syntax < 1327525430 743759 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's something concrete that affects you in a clear way < 1327525454 545570 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there aren't many objective right answers < 1327525497 372645 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :in semantics and type theory there is tons of background and many non-trivial theorems, and the consequences of any choice are far from obvious < 1327525554 496245 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :recent GHC extensions seem to focus more on crazy type tricks than on concrete syntax < 1327525889 678996 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :const int main[] = { 14776, 3942977280, 247 }; < 1327526143 124541 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-6.opaltelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1327526231 668102 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-6.opaltelecom.net NICK :Taneb|Hovercraft < 1327526236 353223 :Taneb|Hovercraft!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-6.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Poor connection < 1327526304 31742 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1327526315 395899 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327526357 353622 :Taneb|Hovercraft!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-6.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also 2007 video game < 1327526462 205103 :Nisstyre!~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1327526635 272345 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :2007 was a good video game. < 1327527264 168995 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that the sequel to 1942? < 1327527321 605856 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually instead of having a function that catches errors and returns a Maybe it would be better to generalize to MonadPlus < 1327527352 196762 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can take absolutely any partial function and lift it into a pure result with mzero failure. < 1327527579 258350 :Taneb|Hovercraft!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-6.opaltelecom.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1327527729 510208 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.33 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1327527742 308937 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-6.opaltelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1327527774 340268 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-6.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :In other news, I've started yet another miserable start to a family tree program in Haskell < 1327527814 832693 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-6.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, /nick Taneb|Hovercraft < 1327527818 383294 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-6.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait < 1327527826 399440 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-6.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That needs to be at the beginning of a line < 1327527833 848506 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-6.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure if I'm fit for IRC < 1327527840 108328 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-6.opaltelecom.net NICK :Taneb|Hovercraft < 1327527995 483063 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: btw do you know that Data.Map used to contain functions generalized to MonadPlus but they decided it was overkill and restricted it to Maybe < 1327528028 59735 :Taneb|Hovercraft!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-6.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should addPerson be Tree -> Person -> Tree or Person -> Tree -> Tree? < 1327528037 523051 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@hoogle Maybe a -> m a < 1327528050 908633 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA no lambdabot < 1327528083 866116 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: wat < 1327528086 533718 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am sad. :( < 1327528196 588895 :Taneb|Hovercraft!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-6.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Google+ has just recommended I add Elliott Hird... < 1327528199 983575 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb|Hovercraft: do you expect people to add multiple persons to one tree, or one person to many trees? < 1327528215 705151 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :and by "people" I mean "you" probably. < 1327528216 996180 :Taneb|Hovercraft!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-6.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... < 1327528217 158016 :Taneb|Hovercraft!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-6.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The former < 1327528246 258535 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course there can be a benefit to having a clear order of arguments instead of ordering for best curryage. < 1327528253 73465 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well there's also the question of whether you would add Persons with foldl' or foldr < 1327528279 780092 :Taneb|Hovercraft!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-6.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Tree is an IntMap < 1327528287 445163 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :intmap has folds. < 1327528297 795272 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean if you had a list of Persons to add < 1327528301 291822 :Taneb|Hovercraft!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-6.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm < 1327528307 150848 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yes < 1327528313 333275 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :your initial parameter would be the tree < 1327528316 734335 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the list would be a list of people to add < 1327528318 45291 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that case. < 1327528327 847005 :Taneb|Hovercraft!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-6.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the normal thing would be the individual person < 1327528331 248521 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :chances are it's not a big deal. < 1327528351 439881 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would go with Person -> Tree -> Tree < 1327528358 872558 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :as that would match the fold type in that situation < 1327528363 717868 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it would work well with map < 1327528368 640784 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it reads pretty well < 1327528386 720489 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :"addperson to " < 1327528398 559408 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually i think if you use foldl' it would be the other way around < 1327528404 280770 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t foldl' < 1327528407 956350 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1327528440 620425 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :foldl' doesn't exist according to ghci :P < 1327528443 464441 :Taneb|Hovercraft!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-6.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a -> b -> a) -> a -> [b] -> a < 1327528446 739093 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1327528447 447318 :Taneb|Hovercraft!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-6.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's in Data.List < 1327528448 709630 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: needs Data.List < 1327528492 965230 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forgot foldl flips the arguments. < 1327528570 12550 :Taneb|Hovercraft!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-6.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :At the moment my program has the line < 1327528571 433295 :Taneb|Hovercraft!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-6.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :" where uf = uf' . uf'' . uf'''" < 1327528577 398126 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds good < 1327528586 482222 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/uf/_/ < 1327528589 59838 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :much better. < 1327528631 380617 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: did I mention that I accidentally invented ReaderT < 1327528634 848024 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1327528635 34632 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :with my portal chess code. < 1327528637 686836 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh... < 1327528639 36716 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes okay., < 1327528641 713699 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :all is well. < 1327528647 14811 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i saw it in the logs, anyway < 1327528836 35944 :Taneb|Hovercraft!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-6.opaltelecom.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1327528842 353023 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-6.opaltelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1327528901 914454 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-6.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Goodnight < 1327528904 53707 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-6.opaltelecom.net QUIT :Client Quit < 1327529410 244059 :pir^2!~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327529734 434162 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1327529984 892146 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1327531149 210384 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1327531402 762728 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, someone on a quiz show just asked "what's the capital of Finland" and I instantly thought "oklopol" < 1327531406 441505 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is something wrong with me? < 1327531456 702291 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1327531577 693666 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's the "capital of Finland" in the "capital -- (wealth in the form of money or property owned by a person or business and human resources of economic value)" sense of the word. < 1327531594 100355 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? finland < 1327531607 281543 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Finland is a European country. There are two people in Finland, and at least five of them are in this channel. Corun drives the bus. < 1327532823 784230 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@70.255.229.0 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327532824 136289 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@70.255.229.0 QUIT :Changing host < 1327532824 297844 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@inportb/loli/cirno-chan JOIN :#esoteric < 1327532855 86351 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :when one entry is not enough < 1327532884 809074 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1327533926 912885 :Klisz!~Klisz@c-67-161-147-186.hsd1.co.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1327535228 146044 :mtve!~mtve@65.98.99.53 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1327535228 307827 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org QUIT :*.net *.split < 1327535934 371041 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric