but can specify download filename which downloads its contents
< 1328657245 417384 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :But maybe there are other ways; I cannot think of any, though.
< 1328657267 7780 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : is already an HTML tag that MediaWiki allows
< 1328657308 574460 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there anything preventing the page from being called http://esolangs.org/wiki/Pure_BF/Implementation.lhs ?
< 1328657310 928206 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then call it something else
< 1328657335 960912 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I don't think so
< 1328657338 50638 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: No, but even if it is called that, I don't think it will call the saved file with that name by default.
< 1328657348 964093 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm
< 1328657355 241601 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the original saves as "Implementation" here
< 1328657370 354990 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you could call it, e.g. PureBF.lhs or such, perhaps?
< 1328657405 610612 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The download link wants to save as index.php on this browser.
< 1328657409 544465 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :In my computer it saves as "index.php" when the download link is used (unless, of course, I enter a different filename at the save prompt)
< 1328657447 934463 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: But yes if that did work, I could call it that and it would work.
< 1328657459 668460 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where *is* the download link, anyway? I just appended ?action=raw.
< 1328657524 719117 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: At the bottom. I didn't try just append ?action=raw because I didn't know you can use query parameters in that way, but yes that works. Still it would be a convenience to have it without requiring entering the URL in the link
< 1328657530 844453 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: try ?action=raw&ctype=text/css
< 1328657593 735593 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: wat
< 1328657626 898234 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: because text/plain is a security bug due to a misfeature in old versions of IE
< 1328657634 757258 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but every browser interprets text/css the same way as text/plain
< 1328657646 907074 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :except without the bug
< 1328657665 606429 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1328657671 765364 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, this is ridiculous, but it seems not to be MediaWiki's fault for once
< 1328657699 779053 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Pure_BF/Implementation?action=raw&ctype=
< 1328657700 142121 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(basically, allowing arbitrary content to be served as text/plain is a security bug in some old IE version because it sometimes interprets it as HTML, which can contain JS, thus a really stupid XSS bug)
< 1328657704 486240 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that should download as Implementation
< 1328657718 955716 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: is there a param to set the filename? it would be nice to be able to avoid moving the page
< 1328657725 47923 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think so
< 1328657789 701680 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Examples of things other than literate Haskell is http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Feuermonster/Bf2Py where direct download doesn't work. You could have something such as  ....  or something like that
< 1328657799 502609 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: anyway, I could look into adding a "Download this page" link to the sidebar or such; that seems easier than extending the markup parser
< 1328657819 933868 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't your dottyweb thing allow extraction of explicitly marked-up code from pages?
< 1328657849 383494 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Yes it does; I should make it work with 
 specifications (currently it doesn't work). But then you need to have PHP on your computer, and that program.
< 1328657849 766897 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, is that a /brainfuck to python compiler/ written in /lisp/?
< 1328657865 608868 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Yes I think it is.
< 1328657905 372463 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do suppose "Download this page" could work too but some might need direct download and some using converted download.
< 1328657926 120054 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: what's surprising you about that?
< 1328657932 212339 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not like, say, a BF to Prolog compiler written in VHDL
< 1328657971 142859 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :_that_ would be just insane, clearly
< 1328657974 661260 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yes that would be more strange for sure
< 1328658011 99937 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it is esolang wiki; so even things as strange as that might possibly be done.
< 1328658086 310121 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, is VHDL even capable of taking input from stdin?
< 1328658105 200261 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or would it have to be FFIed through TCL or something?
< 1328658119 323806 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I don't know. Probably not, unless you have a emulation for the stdin
< 1328658137 346075 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can output to stdout, although obviously only in simulation
< 1328658143 116559 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :/Tcl/?
< 1328658164 8122 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I'm reasonably sure it has some sort of FFI to TCL
< 1328658169 491457 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in simulation
< 1328658173 604244 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Tcl
< 1328658176 183045 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the purpose of running testbenches
< 1328658177 633117 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, OK
< 1328658194 367769 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is an initialism, though, IIRC, although maybe one that's been lowercased since
< 1328658218 281358 :nooga!~nooga@ip-46-250-173-30.ip.maverick.com.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1328658227 704377 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Tcl (originally from "Tool Command Language", but conventionally rendered as "Tcl" rather than "TCL"; pronounced as "tickle" or "tee-see-ell"[3])"
< 1328658261 914862 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, hmm, readline looks promising
< 1328658360 894932 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-230-232.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Calling it TCL is a very good way of demonstrating you don't know Tcl. :)
< 1328658378 431352 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: indeed, I hardly know it
< 1328658381 770304 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've used it without properly knowing it
< 1328658392 847430 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and at one point, I had to visit #tcl, or maybe ##tcl, to ask them how to write a loop
< 1328658396 945722 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which shows just how much I didn't know it
< 1328658453 140126 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :file myfile: text open read_mode is "/etc/passwd";
< 1328658456 315418 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow that's a bizarre syntax
< 1328658472 885887 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-230-232.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No kidding.
< 1328658473 205486 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that's used in the same context you'd normally put a variable declaratoin
< 1328658475 881653 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*declaration
< 1328658500 171867 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually reading from it seems to be a time-reversed write with "read" instead of "write", which is easy enough to remember, though
< 1328658567 910152 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I learned Haskell programming, I did not have to ask how to write a loop since it is done in almost the same way as it is ordinarily done in mathematics, and I already know about mathematics. So, obviously, Tcl is difference from that way.
< 1328658585 474172 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obviously.
< 1328658592 263224 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tcl is almost call-by-name, it seems
< 1328658602 143835 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but more call-by-string-representation
< 1328658622 463581 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which mostly comes to the same thing but is much more mathematically ugly
< 1328658676 644848 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I didn't know better, I'd think that ais523's definition of mathematical beauty is defined in terms of call-by-name.
< 1328658688 752424 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I've realised I'm a call-by-name fanboy
< 1328658695 706098 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Do you know better?
< 1328658702 72203 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Paul Levy has attempted to talk me out of it, but failed so far, although I ended up liking call-by-push-value too
< 1328658727 968193 :Phantom___Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION -> sleep

< 1328658728 268484 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom___Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
< 1328658754 464231 :Phantom___Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell oerjan I SAID SLEEP
< 1328658754 688361 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted.
< 1328658756 588574 :Phantom___Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1328658761 147394 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: You only just now realised that?
< 1328658765 711354 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD
< 1328658766 15039 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
< 1328658768 59640 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: By the way, I hate call-by-name.
< 1328658776 423726 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: oh, I've been one for ages, but I only realised the fact recently
< 1328658780 426035 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably it was more obvious to other people
< 1328658791 633034 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didn't think he'd get that message that soon :P
< 1328658797 406199 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't get annoyed at people for hating call-by-name, I merely pity them
< 1328658843 215221 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: In correct languages, call-by-name is identical to call-by-need, but slower.
< 1328658855 95218 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you are going to favour an implementation detail, why favour an imperfect one?
< 1328658865 465456 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although, better, why favour any implementation detail at all, in terms of mathematical elegance?
< 1328658871 434984 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: in /pure/ languages, call-by-name is identical to call-by-need, but slower
< 1328658881 912119 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in impure languages, they're quite different
< 1328658892 962728 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, you should have heard Paul Levy's attack against Haskell, it was hilarious
< 1328658896 59075 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :THAT'S WHAT HE SAID
< 1328658896 959377 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: That's false.
< 1328658905 231633 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your statement is false and you should feel bad.
< 1328658921 159820 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :talking about how its use of monads for managing side effects was missing exponential algebras
< 1328658932 929395 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thus had problems representing some things
< 1328658935 706930 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Firstly, things that are impure aren't worthy of the name "language", as any schoolchild knows. Secondly, call-by-name is not identical to call-by-need in pure languages.
< 1328658954 634508 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tries to think of a way to be more condescending than "... as any schoolchild knows".

< 1328658969 225976 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, the firstly is clearly a troll attempt, but I'd be interested to see a counterexample for the secondly
< 1328658976 101886 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in terms of observable behaviour, rather than performance
< 1328658979 385446 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm haskell's monads sort of turn call-by-need back into call-by-name
< 1328658999 530478 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Oh, hmm, you may be right.
< 1328659008 458646 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, let me rephrase the statement I was trying to make to be appropriately controversial:
< 1328659013 26578 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :by involving an action which needs to be performed each time
< 1328659020 194725 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: In correct languages, all evaluation strategies are implementation details, and therefore identical.
< 1328659022 919335 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well, some monads)
< 1328659033 516013 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Therefore not hating them all makes you an idiot and unworthy of using the term "mathematical beauty".
< 1328659052 321842 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does exponential algebras mean?
< 1328659058 337139 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: ooh, Haskell is incorrect due to not being total!
< 1328659072 794414 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Of course Haskell is incorrect.
< 1328659087 85452 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell is disgusting. The pure untyped lambda calculus is disgusting.
< 1328659109 730892 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, that reminds me, how do you write a Y combinator in Underload, preferably in a way that would also work in typed Underload?
< 1328659112 390546 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :My computer lives in a mound of filth to signify its unholy status. I have one reserved solely for running @ in a bed of flowers.
< 1328659115 760342 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :X is easy, but has an infinite type
< 1328659128 975669 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I already asked how to write a fixed-point combinator in Underload ages ago, IIRC.
< 1328659145 473388 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed
< 1328659149 501931 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Typed Underload sounds like much less cool an idea than lazy Underload.
< 1328659165 893048 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: oh, I think Underload actually models call-by-push-value rather than call-by-value or call-by-name
< 1328659171 653358 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it can be both lazy and unlazy at once
< 1328659180 536469 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I actually /noticed/ this when compiling Unlambda-including-d into it