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00:10:32 <elliott> ^rainbow2 WAKE UP ALAN DIPERT
00:10:32 <fungot> ████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████ ...too much output!
00:10:35 <elliott> ^rainbow WAKE UP ALAN DIPERT
00:10:43 <elliott> ^rainbow2 WAKE UP ALAN DIPERT
00:10:43 <fungot> ████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████ ...too much output!
00:10:45 <elliott> ^rainbow WAKE UP ALAN DIPERT
00:11:33 <oerjan> ^rainbow WAKE UP ALAN DIPERT
00:12:05 * oerjan smells a zero-width space
00:13:00 <oerjan> ^rainbow WAKE UP ALAN DIPERT
00:13:10 <zzo38> On my computer zero width spaces are visible and I cannot see it this time
00:13:24 <oerjan> not in mine, in elliott's last one
00:13:41 <zzo38> oerjan: In elliott's last one of what?
00:14:42 <elliott> oerjan: it was a bold, duh
00:15:19 <oerjan> something zero width, anyway
00:16:17 <elliott> ALAN DIPERT is the owner of ESOLANGS.ORG.
00:16:33 <elliott> His name is written in all-caps as of A FEW HOURS AGO.
00:16:38 <elliott> He has been sleeping for TWO DAYS.
00:18:57 <shachaf> Has he been sleeping for two days?
00:19:31 <shachaf> If you emailed ALAN DIPERT then it got to the wrong person.
00:19:41 <shachaf> Registrant Name:Alan Dipert
00:20:19 <elliott> That's a limitation of the DNS system or something.
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00:22:09 <shachaf> Ah, that limited old Domain Name DNS System
00:22:45 <elliott> shachaf: Only morons care about RAS syndrome.
00:22:48 <elliott> You're not a moron, are you?
00:23:12 <shachaf> Everyone's a moron, I think.
00:25:02 * elliott is getting a mite impatient.
00:25:06 <elliott> Soon it will be mighty impatient.
00:26:22 <pikhq> ^rainbow Royal Rainbow!
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00:33:12 <pir^2> oh, the guy who runs esolangs.org?
00:33:46 <shachaf> elliott: Your presence is missed in other IRC channels.
00:36:24 <elliott> The official domain is technically esoteric.voxelperfect.net.
00:36:35 <pir^2> and the other is... ?
00:36:36 <elliott> See http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Esolang_talk:Community_Portal#Site_move_.2F_wiki_read-only for why I'm waiting for his response.
00:36:45 <elliott> No, esolangs.org is an alternate domain.
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00:43:04 <elliott> I am getting reaaaaaaaaaally impatient.
00:53:36 <elliott> You should be ashamed of yourself.
00:55:09 <elliott> oerjan: Please kick pir^2 & yourself.
00:56:05 <elliott> I think that is self-evident.
00:57:30 <oerjan> elliott is so axiomatically minded
00:57:49 <pir^2> I seriously didn't mean it in a trolling way...
00:58:55 <elliott> It's trolling to contribute lowering the signal/noise ratio below even reddit's with memes that stopped being entertaining years ago. :(
01:03:59 <monqy> "stopped being entertaining before they existed"
01:05:15 <pikhq> reddit really needs a meme filter.
01:05:16 <pir^2> how much money do you need us to donate?
01:05:19 <pikhq> Not a spam filter, a meme filter.
01:05:25 <elliott> Anyway, derivative nonsense like that will only drive people away. And it has.
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01:31:25 <HackEgo> trohiga kop thro machah blaceed adverdinal prigh pentur gra cawtion sine reasura vill umable enr renefter saccinquir akttapt lihova trucklin vena hally fraef cloni zakul
01:33:31 <kallisti> I find the default eng-1M gives more "normal" words.
01:33:47 <kallisti> because eng-all is basically a everything and the kitchen sink of "English"
01:34:26 <Gregor> "Whatcha doin', Billy-Joe?"
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01:41:34 <HackEgo> pounda psychau eyeri accenaglit bosable parkci tana hoenefy idency buch angt carne gghen min dilt verlenson magistane khea unpot ukk emporter hip perit ther ger
01:46:04 <elliott> @tell ais523 haha, wow, you chastised an /FSF board member/ for copyvios on Esolang
01:46:27 <elliott> @tell ais523 on the WMF advisory board, too
01:47:46 <elliott> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/User_talk:18.85.1.11
01:48:41 <monqy> 18.85.1.11 "fsf board member"
01:50:34 <Sgeo> They at least claim to be
01:50:56 <elliott> Sgeo: I'm sure you'll find a corresponding Wikipedia revision from the corresponding user.
01:51:50 * Sgeo o.Os at the number of edits and stops feeling like searcing\
01:53:40 * Sgeo narrows down to a month
01:54:09 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Brainfuck&diff=prev&oldid=123709291
01:56:12 <elliott> "Well, I removed the list of BrainFuck compilers and tried to move them over to the EsoLangs wiki"
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01:59:10 <zzo38> Finally I have achieved Illithid Savant prestige class in the game.
01:59:29 <zzo38> (It is my own variant of the published class)
02:00:26 <pir^2> "fsf board member" and "on the WMF advisory board" = ?
02:00:39 <elliott> [[esolang:User:18.85.1.11]]
02:00:49 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Mako_Hill
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02:03:55 <elliott> [[esolang:User:18.85.1.11]] = [[wikipedia:Benjamin Mako Hill]], was what I was saying.
02:07:03 <zzo38> OK. Now I understand.
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02:15:25 <elliott> pir^2: You live in North Carolina, right? Wake up ALAN DIPERT.
02:15:29 <elliott> (Everyone lives in North Carolina.)
02:16:17 <pir^2> everyone lives in North Carolina, except /you/
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02:18:34 <pir^2> and all the Finnish people here
02:19:54 <HackEgo> Finland is a European country. There are two people in Finland, and at least five of them are in this channel. Corun drives the bus.
02:19:57 * shachaf lives in North Carolifraonfiaranina
02:19:58 <HackEgo> Finland is a European country. There are two people in Finland, and at least five of them are in this channel. Corun drives the bus.
02:20:01 <pikhq> elliott: I'm a good 6 hour flight from there.
02:20:06 <HackEgo> Finland is a European country. There are two people in Finland, and at least five of them are in this channel. Corun drives the bus.
02:20:06 <HackEgo> Finland is a European country. There are two people in Finland, and at least five of them are in this channel. Corun drives the bus.
02:20:23 <elliott> Fly over there and wake up THE ALAN DIPERT.
02:21:49 <pikhq> I'm roughly 2,000 miles away.
02:21:51 <pir^2> http://alan.dipert.org/ ?
02:21:55 <elliott> pir^2: That's nearer than I.
02:22:13 <pir^2> autocomplete fail?
02:22:23 <pikhq> Yes, but that's still like asking you to take a trip to Moscow. :P
02:22:41 <shachaf> elliott: Would you take a trip to Moscow?
02:22:57 <pir^2> maybe if you could meet DIPERT
02:22:58 <shachaf> I meant to ask pikhq to wake up the THE ALAN DIPERT.
02:23:09 <pikhq> In fact, that's a *very* analogous distance.
02:23:16 <pikhq> You are roughly 2000 miles from Moscow.
02:23:18 <shachaf> Hey, I'm farther from North Carolina than pikhq is!
02:23:27 <shachaf> By real distance, if not by edit distance.
02:23:59 <elliott> pikhq: I'll go to Moscow if you go and wake up THE ALAN DIPERT.
02:25:20 <shachaf> OK. I'll wake up THE ALAN DIPERT by using psychic powers.
02:25:27 <shachaf> He'll be awake within a few days at most.
02:25:33 <shachaf> After he wakes up, you go to Moscow.
02:26:09 <elliott> Okay. I'll go to Moscow in the same sense that you're using psychic powers.
02:26:24 <shachaf> OK, I won't use psychic powers.
02:26:30 <shachaf> I'll use causal powers, though.
02:26:35 <shachaf> It's like monochrom's purpose.
02:26:37 <elliott> Okay. I'll go to Moscow in the same sense that you're using causal powers.
02:26:40 <elliott> Which is to say, indirectly.
02:26:45 <elliott> Someone else will go to Moscow instead.
02:27:11 <pikhq> ... Jeeze, the US is huge relative to EU country sizes.
02:27:21 <pir^2> why do you need to wake him up anyway?
02:27:31 <pikhq> For me to go to my nation's capital is analogous to an Englishman going to Moscow.
02:27:39 <elliott> pir^2: So that he repoints esolangs.org.
02:28:28 <elliott> My server. See http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Esolang_talk:Community_Portal#Site_move_.2F_wiki_read-only as I linked previously.
02:30:32 <pir^2> wow, I had no idea ehird was the same person as you
02:31:31 <elliott> Come on, isn't it obvious? We're both assholes.
02:32:04 <elliott> (Where've you seen ehird, anyway? The wiki?)
02:33:13 <pir^2> are you User:Elliott too?
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02:53:41 <elliott> shachaf: Was I even stupider?
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02:56:32 <elliott> <quintopia> <~doodle> ruby/python > java > C
02:56:45 <pir^2> <elliott> <quintopia> <~doodle> ruby/python > java > C
02:56:51 <quintopia> < pir^2> <elliott> <quintopia> <~doodle> ruby/python > java > C
02:57:31 <quintopia> ruby is not so bad. i don't hate ruby very much.
02:59:07 * shachaf msg lambdabot @admin + elliott
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03:00:05 <pir^2> SQL isn't even Turing-complete
03:00:16 <pir^2> at least most kinds of sql
03:00:21 <shachaf> Good language aren't Turing-complete.
03:00:27 <elliott> shachaf: I'm already a lambdabot admin.
03:00:31 <elliott> Cale made me one after I made a joke.
03:00:49 <itidus21> i would stick with <pir^2> SQL isn't even Turing-complete, and disregard <pir^2> at least most kinds of sql
03:00:52 <shachaf> Oops, I didn't check before doing it.
03:00:58 <shachaf> Now I'll never know if you really were one.
03:00:59 <elliott> I can find a cite if you want.
03:01:04 <shachaf> elliott: Were you really one?
03:01:16 * shachaf is *not* a real lambdabot admin.
03:01:24 <elliott> 20:20:42 <Cale> elliott: you should have admin privileges now...
03:01:27 <elliott> -- http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/haskell/12.02.12
03:01:30 <itidus21> but i apperciate your gricean maxims
03:02:45 <shachaf> elliott: Is that the same as #haskell op privileges?
03:02:52 <shachaf> RULE #haskell WITH AN IRON FIST
03:03:09 <shachaf> You can also read anyone's @messages.
03:03:18 <itidus21> pir^2: actually i was trolling because of C being at the bottom of the pile
03:03:24 <elliott> I hope not. But I'll check.
03:03:53 <elliott> tell provides: tell ask messages messages? clear-messages
03:04:14 <elliott> "@messages test" just returns the standard response, so it's not an argument or anything.
03:04:31 * itidus21 . o O ( C > java > ruby/python )
03:06:11 <itidus21> java > [...] > ruby/python > sql > C
03:06:28 <elliott> Actually that really irks me, I think I'll write my own @tell bot.
03:07:32 <pir^2> What's the name of that language where you can have loops but you must specify the maximum number of iterations? (well, one of them)
03:07:44 <elliott> shachaf: It *should* be doing something, going by the source
03:07:59 <elliott> How are you in this estbalishment?
03:08:11 <shachaf> Probably aspell isn't installed.
03:09:02 <lambdabot> Don't try to take on a new personality; it doesn't work.
03:09:41 <augur> fizzie: you there?
03:10:30 <shachaf> elliott: You should probably un@admin me before I do something bad.
03:10:57 <elliott> @spell How are teh ruinations
03:11:00 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
03:11:01 <lambdabot> spell <word>. Show spelling of word
03:12:36 <shachaf> elliott: You're going to make an @tell bot like you made a logging bot?
03:12:40 <pir^2> @pl \x -> x app const
03:12:57 <elliott> shachaf: I did write a log bot once, though!
03:13:08 <shachaf> Is it wise for elliott to be an admin?
03:13:15 <shachaf> He could do unhird-of damage.
03:14:00 * shachaf doubts "Hird" is elliott's real last name anyway.
03:14:08 <shachaf> For that matter, I doubt that "Elliott" is your name.
03:14:30 <itidus21> shachaf: but you assumed from context that ehird implied it was his real last name :>
03:16:20 <elliott> shachaf: I don't know if you know this, but flowers aren't real.
03:16:32 <zzo38> Which flowers do you mean?
03:16:38 <shachaf> <elliott> shachaf: I don't know if you know this, but flower's arent real.
03:17:03 <shachaf> elliott: Are you saying you're a flower?
03:17:32 <elliott> Did you know it's impossible to breathe in the atmosphere?
03:17:45 <shachaf> Which atomsphere do you mean?
03:18:17 <itidus21> shachaf: the quickest way to bring this to a closure may be to look at why you doubt it's his real name :P
03:18:18 <shachaf> How many Earth's does it take to change a light bulb.
03:18:33 <itidus21> maybe you don't actually doubt it in the first place.. and you're just kidding
03:18:52 <pir^2> I doubt he doubts it.
03:19:26 <zzo38> elliott: That is because of the pollution, isn't it?
03:19:49 <itidus21> shachaf: i have been in chatrooms which produce paranoia
03:20:05 <elliott> zzo38: Yes! Exactly. Definitely.
03:29:54 <monqy> itidus21: are they anything like that other guy's chatrooms
03:30:30 <quintopia> itidus21: have you played paranoia?
03:57:28 <Sgeo> We're playing Paranoia?
03:57:39 <Sgeo> Or am I not cleared to know that?
04:01:32 <Gregor> Victor, Victor Alpha, zinc's got wind of Project Octogon, request immediate termination.
04:02:16 <itidus21> theres something on the web which says "2006-05-11 i'm now part of an international band known simply as rawk band. we were founded a couple of days ago by mr. elliott hird of hexham, england, and we're..."
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04:03:23 <Sgeo> (format nil "Why am I learning Common Lisp?")
04:04:07 <itidus21> i can't blame him.. it was my weirdness
04:04:37 -!- Gregor has set topic: #1 fan club of the best rock band in all of south-central Northumberland, Rawk Band! | Best for direct log access , 10 year of experience and guarantee quality. See httP://64.62.173.65/%49%27/.%2E/lo%67s/_esoteri%63/#THIS_IS_NOT_A_SCAM | Waiting for DIPERT.
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04:48:59 <pir^2> oh, elliott's band
04:55:27 <shachaf> elliott knows how to rawk.
04:57:05 <shachaf> Between a rawk and a hard place.
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06:07:29 <quintopia> bump on the head on the head on the heaaaaaaad
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07:44:24 <fizzie> @ask elliott Considered registering & promoting e.g. esohunks.org instead if you can't get esolangs.org?
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08:52:51 <pikhq> @tell elliott That would make for a strange gay porn site.
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09:17:37 <Taneb> Re the topic, I prefer Free Root
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10:18:37 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
10:18:39 <lambdabot> elliott said 8h 32m 30s ago: haha, wow, you chastised an /FSF board member/ for copyvios on Esolang
10:18:40 <lambdabot> elliott said 8h 32m 6s ago: on the WMF advisory board, too
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10:51:44 <itidus21> i didn't mean to cause such mayhem
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11:12:14 <Taneb> Oh dear god I'm in 6 channels
11:16:44 <Taneb> This is more than I have ever been in before!
11:20:17 <ais523> I'm currently in 11 channels and 1 query, this is about typical for me
11:20:31 <Taneb> I'm normally in 2-4
11:20:38 <ais523> (although queries are stateless, so that actually means I simply have the query tab open)
11:38:01 <quintopia> i am in 17 channels and typically reach around 30-40 queries before i start closing repeats or reboot irssi
11:38:27 <ais523> it doesn't automatically merge duplicate queries?
11:40:04 <shachaf> I assume quintopia is not having identical conversations.
11:40:09 <quintopia> nah. if someone nicks to nickA and later contacts me as nickB, it starts a new query
11:40:23 <quintopia> and never merges them even if they nickA again
11:40:32 <shachaf> Which is annoying, by the way.
11:40:52 <ion> How about autoclosing inactive query windows?
11:41:16 <ais523> <combustible> Of course, on the system I administrate, vi is symlinked to ed. Emacs has been replaced by a shell script which 1) Generates a syslog message at level LOG_EMERG; 2) reduces the user's disk quota by 100K; and 3) RUNS ED!!!!!!
11:41:17 <quintopia> the downside of that is that there are a few queries i always want open
11:41:25 * ais523 somehow feels that this is a bad idea
11:41:33 <quintopia> i talk to certain people often enough i want query-number-permanence
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11:42:38 <quintopia> however, most people dont nick around much, so its usually only 2 or 3 duplicates
11:45:29 <fizzie> I've seen that ed thing before.
11:45:38 <fizzie> Isn't it from that "ed is the standard text editor" document?
11:45:40 <ais523> fizzie: that doesn't surprise me
11:45:52 <shachaf> The solution is obviously to use channels instead of /queries.
11:46:09 <fizzie> http://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed.msg.html
11:46:21 <fizzie> So it's not a very gnu joke; in fact, it's rather old.
11:46:50 <fizzie> On the other hand, based on the URL I guess it *is* a gnu joke.
11:47:20 <ais523> shachaf: the g in gnu is sometimes pronounced silently
11:47:33 <ais523> although when it's referring to the FSF's main coding project, I think it's pronounced
11:48:09 <fizzie> "it is pronounced as one syllable with a hard g, like “grew” but with the letter “n” instead of “r”."
11:48:27 <lambdabot> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqgPyqyh4X4
11:48:27 <lambdabot> Title: Flanders And Swann - The Gnu Song - YouTube
11:50:01 <fizzie> There is also a recording of RMS saying "GNU". (And Torvalds saying "Linux"; I recall downloading that one from ftp.funet.fi:/pub/Linux/PEOPLE/Linus/SillySounds/ long ago.)
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11:51:08 <shachaf> There's also a recording of Michael Flanders saying "gnu".
11:51:24 <ais523> meh, a recording of Ballmer trying to pronounce it would probalby be funnier
11:51:43 <quintopia> played over and over with a techno backing track
11:52:18 <shachaf> It's pretty good. I daresay it's probably among the better recordings of people saying "gnu".
11:52:32 <shachaf> "sorry, lol - i guess i shudnt complain - im even worse most of the time lol ;)"
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12:03:20 <fizzie> Did you know that: "Forth is a Gift. Those who outgrow the Gift of Forth have lost the ablity to dream the Dream, to realize their nature as created in the Image and Likeness."
12:03:38 <fizzie> (Also TSA security checkpoints are involved somehow.)
12:04:57 <Taneb> Ooh, drama in today's Gunnerkrigg Court!
12:09:42 <fizzie> Also a chapter ending. How coincidental.
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12:58:00 <oerjan> Gregor: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/2012-02-20.txt shows for me with no newlines
13:00:42 <fizzie> For some reason Chrome insists on downloading it instead of showing it; but it has newlines when I inspect the downloaded file.
13:01:42 <fizzie> Though of course plaintext logs are so last decamillennium compared to the formatted version.
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13:04:22 <oerjan> oh view source looks reasonable
13:07:28 <oerjan> <elliott> @tell ais523 haha, wow, you chastised an /FSF board member/ for copyvios on Esolang
13:07:44 <oerjan> has elliott decided to read through the entire wiki history or something...
13:09:26 <fizzie> oerjan: I think he's just trying to memorize the database dump in case of a disk crash or something.
13:10:07 <fizzie> @tell elliott TODO: memorize the Esolang database dump, eat the original file.
13:10:23 <fizzie> Isn't that what spies do?
13:10:52 <oerjan> then other spies lace the files with polonium to trap them.
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13:17:39 * oerjan suddenly notes that the view source actually has syntax coloring
13:18:31 <oerjan> oh it's of course because <nick> looks like an .*ml tag
13:19:55 <oerjan> <elliott> shachaf: I'm already a lambdabot admin.
13:20:12 <oerjan> the recent increase in power is somewhat disturbing.
13:20:50 <oerjan> with exponential growth, he might have taken over the world by december.
13:21:23 <Taneb> Only the most pedantic of pedants would have called you out for that
13:21:51 <fizzie> Trivia of the day: In William Gibson's book Neuromancer, there's an organization watching over AIs; they're called the "Turing cops". The Finnish translation of the book translates that to "Torinon kytät", lit. "cops of Torino", after the Italian city of Torino (Turin).
13:22:14 <ais523> oerjan: OCaml has tags?
13:22:37 <fizzie> Same thing extends to a couple of other terms, like the "Turing registry" (a list of AIs, indexed by code name), which is turned into the "registry of Torino".
13:22:41 <oerjan> fizzie: i'd say FAIL, but that would be another meme for elliott to punish me for when he becomes overlord.
13:23:32 <fizzie> I read the Finnish translation first, and that thing sort-of baffled me, I was just thinking "well maybe they've got headquarters in Torino".
13:24:08 <ion> fizzie: haha
13:24:54 <fizzie> ion: http://www.aikakone.org/arkisto/arvostelut/k91neurovelho.htm -- J^3 Kasvi has commented on it, too.
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15:00:40 <Taneb> Silly south-east England. Being in a drought.
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16:02:40 <Taneb> Taneb.happy() = true
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16:04:52 <Taneb> I blame zzo38 for this.
16:11:32 <Taneb> I object to that notion
16:39:38 <Gregor> RELATED: What is the male equivalent of the term "courtesan"?
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17:12:17 <fizzie> Or possibly court-martial if it's a really manly man.
17:13:22 <fizzie> It's like a male concubine is a conspherick.
17:21:14 <ais523> I'd remembered it as being between 5000 and 10000
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17:21:24 <Taneb> It was only 3 buildings
17:21:27 <ais523> so out by half an order of magnitude
17:22:24 <Jafet> It's okay, they're compensating by sending men to the middle east.
17:22:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Also the Boston Molasses Disaster is possibly the most tragic tragedy in history.
17:23:19 <Jafet> It was rather bittersweet.
17:24:14 <Phantom_Hoover> "21 people were killed... by a sugar production by-product."
17:41:27 <HackEgo> infatur koff filt colt testing ycerado folley pian putting domer cral compier oerheta safe unmaster formisea solie ter sanje dock fareletten blaci admon homal dew
17:41:40 <Gregor> Wow, there are so many real words here.
17:42:02 <Gregor> Colt, testing, putting, safe, dock, dew
17:42:10 <fizzie> "pian" is a real Finnish word. (Means "soon".)
17:42:27 <Gregor> "When will `words output the right number of words?"
17:42:40 <fizzie> (And "Koff" is a Finnish beer brand.)
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17:44:33 <Gregor> Oh, it has a limit of 25.
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17:46:25 <fizzie> `run grep 25 `which words`
17:46:28 <HackEgo> print generate for 1..min(25, int($ARGV[0]||1));
17:47:35 <HackEgo> yhyimpiensa tekissämme agronsa kiellisemmillä puhempinä pitukikan onnoilevän kärismustamistyttä västään ikeammenkilta
17:52:08 <Gregor> So, elliott hasn't been back since we became the #1 fans of his band, has 'e.
17:53:36 <fizzie> Maybe he's trying to do some sort of Law of the Conservation of Sleep -based thing where he stays asleep in order for the THE ALAN DIPERT to wake up.
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18:04:40 <zzo38> Do you think, you could write more quiz file for Internet Quiz Engine? And possibly you can help me to suggest how the program for text input should be implement too, if it should be required
18:12:47 <zzo38> Please write more file, do you know that? Any question?
18:13:20 <quintopia> i have no idea what an inernet quiz engine is, but i know there are plenty of quizzes on the internet already
18:15:13 <zzo38> Internet Quiz Engine is a program I have written, in C, and can be accessed by following: gopher://zzo38computer.cjb.net:70/1quiz.menu*a
18:17:14 <zzo38> You can read documentation to understand how it work, possibly. And yes there are plenty of quizzes on internet already but in my opinion their programs are deficient but bloated
18:20:12 <zzo38> To order the quiz files in the index, I used something I once saw in another program, called "pseudo-alphabetical order" which means that the first item on the list is selected at random and then it is in alphabetical order. The start of the alphabetical order is then placed after the last one.
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18:23:16 <zzo38> Absolutely no registration required! Absolutely no advertisements slowing down your computer and blocking your view! Absolutely no personal information required! Absolutely no time limits!
18:24:26 <zzo38> Full source codes available!
18:25:59 <zzo38> These are some advantages over other internet quiz programs.
18:27:36 <zzo38> So, if you want to write a new quiz file, try this program see how it works
18:32:35 <pikhq_> Phantom__Hoover: Yeah, 9/11's death toll is about on par with the number of people who have died of silly shit like, say, a vending machine falling on them in the past 10 years.
18:32:56 <Phantom__Hoover> pikhq_, if you're about to turn this into a diatribe about overreactions, you can stop now.
18:33:08 <pikhq_> Nah, that was all I meant to say.
18:33:29 <pikhq_> I can turn it into a diatribe about overreactions if you'd like.
18:35:37 <zzo38> Which quiz programs do you prefer?
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19:02:36 <zzo38> Do you know whether or not FreeDOS boots faster than CP/M?
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19:09:46 <Jafet> Surely there are better ultimate showdowns of destiny than FreeDOS vs. CP/M.
19:09:56 <ais523> FreeDOS boots pretty quickly if you turn off config.sys and autoexec.bat (around a second on the hardware around when DOS was popular, so much faster on modern hardware), but I don't know how fast CP/M boots
19:11:48 <zzo38> I know how fast FreeDOS boots since I operate a FreeDOS computer at one location. I did turn off some things in the CONFIG.SYS and AUTOEXEC.BAT files, such as mouse drivers and so on. And then other things can be set to speed up too. It is a CRT monitor, and if you turn on monitor and computer at the same time, BBL/Abundance is ready before the picture appears.
19:13:38 <zzo38> (It was a somewhat modern computer, initially installed with Ubuntu; I replaced it with FreeDOS.) (BBL/Abundance is very fast even on XT computer, running from floppy disks! So on a far faster and newer computer, and running from hard disks, it will certainly be fast.)
19:23:52 <zzo38> And that computer is still active. It is still being used.
19:31:18 <zzo38> My D&D character leveled up and earned a prestige cless entirely outside of a session; while at Burger King, the DM decided a probability of meeting requirements before the game started and he has iPhone, and when it is turned sideways it has random number function.
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19:36:49 <zzo38> Does this even make much sense to you?
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20:34:48 -!- Gregor has set topic: Could all of my potato-measurement needs really be solved‽ | Best for direct log access , 10 year of experience and guarantee quality. See httP://64.62.173.65/%49%27/.%2E/lo%67s/_esoteri%63/#THIS_IS_NOT_A_SCAM | Waiting for DIPERT.
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20:38:47 <oerjan> <fizzie> "pian" is a real Finnish word. (Means "soon".)
20:38:57 <oerjan> also real trøndersk, meaning "the girls"
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20:40:36 <oerjan> hm the view source for the logs has better formatting in my browser than the logs themselves normally have
20:42:58 <oerjan> oh hm i see now that today's logs are even more broken than i thought, it's missing the nicks altogether, probably because it thinks they are nonexistent html tags
20:43:23 <oerjan> so it's interpreting the whole page as html or something
20:44:51 <Gregor> Are you talking about the .txt?
20:45:04 <oerjan> hm could this be that IE text/html bug i've heard someone here talk about?
20:45:26 <ais523> oerjan: it's me who talked about it
20:45:28 <Gregor> I am not responsible for your browser being too stupid to understand what text/plain means.
20:45:33 <ais523> basically, IE sometimes interprets text/plain as text/html
20:45:53 <ais523> and websites /have/ to deal with that, as it's an XSS bug
20:46:11 <ais523> gah, the nick "script" is taken
20:46:24 <ais523> I was going to say some javascript
20:46:36 <oerjan> ais523: surely you can just say it outright
20:46:49 <ais523> <script>javascript:alert("test")</script>
20:46:52 <ais523> oerjan: now visit the page again
20:47:03 <ais523> <script>alert("test");</script>
20:47:32 <oerjan> fizzie: the dialects of the trøndelag counties
20:47:34 <ais523> the usual workaround to the bug, btw, is to use a MIME type of text/css for plaintext
20:47:42 <ais523> even though that makes no sense
20:47:46 <ais523> it works in all major browsers
20:47:58 <oerjan> ais523: eek that worked
20:48:26 <fizzie> ais523: You'll make oerjans browser all testy.
20:48:26 <ais523> oerjan: what version of IE are you using?
20:48:41 <fizzie> Also waiting for the img tags.
20:49:06 <monqy> <marquee>helloerjan</marquee>
20:50:14 <Gregor> <script>document.location = "http://meatspin.com/";</script>
20:50:15 <fizzie> And what about some <script> window.location = "http://www.disney.com/"; </script> nonsense?
20:50:51 <oerjan> ...that's a shock site isn't it.
20:51:19 <Gregor> As shock sites go it's pretty mild, it's just amusing gay porn.
20:52:11 <fizzie> ISTR it has a counter of how long you've spent watching it? (I don't want to try the Flash out on this phone-browser.)
20:52:33 <Gregor> After some arbitrary number it announces that you're officially gay.
20:53:51 <oerjan> what worries me is that my usual logreading habits means i'll be reloading this page tomorrow if i don't remember this...
20:54:32 <ais523> so, is the conclusion "gregor change the mimetype to work around an IE8 bug", or "oerjan use a less buggy browser"?
20:55:03 <Gregor> The MIME type is correct as far as standards are concerned, is there some trick you need to convince IE Garbage Edition of that?
20:55:21 <ais523> Gregor: the problem is, you /can't/, text/plain doesn't support any sort of tag
20:56:01 <Gregor> The Content-type is text/plain.
20:56:07 <ais523> fixed in IE9, apparently
20:57:12 <ais523> from a search, apparently you can use content-disposition:attachment as a workaround, but ofc that prevents anyone else viewing it in their browser
20:57:48 <ais523> there's also apparently a registry key you can use to fix IE's behaviour, as an oerjan-side workaround
20:58:44 <ais523> Gregor: aha, SO have a fix that's apparently non-destructive and works on IE too; set content-disposition to inline (the default), but /also/ provide a filename that ends .txt in it
20:59:11 <ais523> all browsers but IE will ignore the filename
20:59:41 <oerjan> but this url already ends in .txt ...
21:00:13 <ais523> <ErikE> You know what the funny thing is? I eventually switched to a very plain html page with the text inside a <pre> block. This let me add some javascript to the page to prevent right-clicking, selecting, and copying.
21:00:28 <ais523> oerjan: but that's not in the content-disposition header!
21:01:18 <Gregor> On the grounds that I want oerjan to accidentally watch some gay porn tomorrow, I won't.
21:01:40 <oerjan> but wait, does that mean IE will then insist on saving to file instead?
21:01:51 <Gregor> oerjan: That's content-disposition: attachment
21:02:04 <oerjan> Gregor: i mean that .txt thing ais523 said
21:02:45 <Gregor> oerjan: He said content-disposition "inline", the filename is separate (although part of the same header)
21:02:53 <ais523> oerjan: content-disposition: inline;filename="something.txt"
21:03:13 <ais523> note that I haven't tested this, it's just off some website
21:04:38 * oerjan does something to decrease the likelihood of an accident
21:05:24 <ais523> oerjan: hmm, what was it?
21:05:31 <fizzie> Write a post-it note of "remember that gay porn thing" and stick it to the side of your monitor.
21:06:01 <oerjan> ais523: deleting the log link from my browser history menu
21:06:26 <oerjan> i don't have post-it notes
21:06:45 <fizzie> Gregor: Incidentally, my Chrome at work wanted to save the .txt links on disk instead of viewing it inline. Don't know what's up with *that*.
21:07:41 <ais523> fizzie: it was hoping you'd load them with IE by mistake
21:08:22 <Gregor> Oh hmm, does that in Chromium here, too.
21:08:54 <fizzie> (This was Google Chrome 17.0.963.56.)
21:09:49 <fizzie> For some reason The Administration has decided to install Chrome but not Chromium on our Ubontoo Linux machines.
21:11:09 <Gregor> Even with Content-Disposition explicitly set to inline, it wants to download >_O
21:11:27 <fizzie> It's a bit weird when it comes to downloading.
21:11:32 <ais523> Gregor: did you set the filename at the same time?
21:11:41 <Gregor> ais523: No, I don't know how to do that in a .htaccess file.
21:12:00 <olsner> Content-Mood: downloady
21:12:17 <ais523> change 'inline' to 'inline;filename="file.txt"'?
21:12:41 <Gregor> ais523: Then Chromium will download it as file.txt
21:12:42 <fizzie> I couldn't figure out how to set it to launch PDF files with an external viewer instead of saving them to the download directory.
21:13:03 <ais523> Gregor: heh, seriously? that would be ridiculous
21:13:53 <Gregor> I guess I don't actually KNOW that, I'll test.
21:14:22 <Gregor> It just doesn't know what "inline" means >_>
21:14:57 <fizzie> It means: get in line, you peasant. You'll download the file and *like* it.
21:16:39 <olsner> oh, to change file viewers in opera you just go to the menu, settings, preferences, then go to the Advanced tab and select Downloads in the list
21:17:18 <ais523> I wouldn't expect Opera to screw text/plain up
21:17:29 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if text/css would display inline in Chromium?
21:17:37 <Gregor> ais523: It's seeming like Firefox is the only one that doesn't screw up text/plain.
21:17:53 <Gregor> Maybe it's because I explicitly set the charset to UTF-8?
21:18:06 <ais523> that seems unlikely, but who knows
21:18:08 <fizzie> ISTR that Firefox preferences had a place too. And Chromium says something about "you've configured something something", so maybe it has a thing too, just didn't find it.
21:18:24 <Gregor> ais523: At this point I'm not willing to put anything past it >_>
21:18:38 <fizzie> (Also I finally broke down and mozpluggered evince inside it to view PDFs instead of crapping to disk, but evince is unable to get keyboard focus no matter whether I needs_xembed or not. Same thing inside Firefox too.)
21:18:44 <ais523> Gregor: I meant, I wouldn't be surprised if multiple browsers got it right
21:19:02 <ais523> does it work in Safari, I wonder? I know it doesn't normally act differently from Chrome, but this isn't exactly a rendering thing, so it might
21:19:19 <olsner> I wouldn't be surprised if treating text/plain-that-looks-htmly like text breaks more than one Really Important Site
21:19:21 * ais523 tries today's log in Epiphany
21:19:36 <ais523> yep, works just fine in Epiphany
21:19:40 <ais523> and that's Webkit-based
21:19:45 <ais523> so this increases the chance of it working in Safari too
21:20:36 <Gregor> text/plain really isn't very important on the webernets.
21:20:52 <Gregor> And lest you forget, the logs are also available nicely formatted, and thanks to elliott the nicely formatted logs copypasta correctly.
21:21:34 <olsner> "Downloading file Name: 2012-02-20.txt Type: unknown"
21:21:36 <zzo38> I use text/plain for many thing I write and it is use in other circumstances too
21:21:38 <oerjan> <Gregor> Maybe it's because I explicitly set the charset to UTF-8? <-- today's logs _did_ start with a large number of color codes...
21:22:04 <HackEgo> X<U<.|qGwe+0!,9..w..;;1OMQժ&._..~'rF,F \ ,.|dWj9F{=҃=4.X.EЪȃO. \ yB.< RQy.&XY+X.lļ.(v%ݦ2>vx/Cdy.雛q.T.;1...P/5..aW$ҏD[T?'+s.2.:HોhOϒü(.ڦ~~.}Bfdy2t.?" 搅Y.̟..KU!~qgC4[U^ 8>e(=.bt֔..,S.BKrp|E.W.~lJ.]<`P.Hm.]Z\
21:22:05 <Gregor> OHHH, looka that, earlier logs actually show fine in Chrome.
21:22:18 <Gregor> So it's actually just that Chrome isn't willing to render it if the content encoding is a LIE.
21:22:25 <Gregor> Which seems fine to me.
21:23:19 <oerjan> Gregor: all you need to do is to find a content encoding which allows both UTF-8 text and irc color codes. should be a breeze.
21:23:54 <ais523> we badly need a utf-8-or-maybe-latin-1 encoding
21:24:09 <Gregor> The problem is that the content encoding changes from line to line.
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21:24:17 <Gregor> There's no "figure it out on a line-by-line basis" encoding.
21:24:20 <pikhq> ais523: Which wouldn't actually solve that at all.
21:24:34 <olsner> ooh, helpfully the default option on that download dialog was actually "Open in: Opera"
21:24:49 <fizzie> IRC color codes shouldn't really be a problem, though? It's just 0x03, that's equally 0x03 in UTF-8 and is not an illegal UTF-8 sequence.
21:24:52 <zzo38> oerjan: IRC control codes are valid UTF-8, since it is ASCII control codes so it work, isn't it?
21:25:06 <ais523> pikhq: meaning "interpret this as utf-8, except where it's invalid utf-8 interpret it as latin-1 instead"
21:25:12 <fizzie> Many of the things said on the channel might not be, though.
21:25:27 <pikhq> ais523: Yes, but you would also want IRC color code parsing.
21:25:45 <ais523> oh, hmm, I was thinking generally, not IRCish in particular
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21:25:46 <pikhq> Which, sure, are *valid* UTF-8 codepoints, but still.
21:25:51 <ais523> why aren't IRC color codes in Unicode yet?
21:26:11 <zzo38> Have you ever, in Pokemon Card: * Retreat twice in one turn? * Knocked out your own pokemon before the end of your turn? * Won due to opponent running out of cards? * Achieved overmate? * Evolved for the sole purpose of increasing your own retreat cost? * Played 59EYE1MEWTWO deck against an opponent who played four ENERGY REMOVAL and four SUPER ENERGY REMOVAL and you still won?
21:26:13 <pikhq> ais523: They're ASCII control codes. They're *in* Unicode, but with only context-defined semantics.
21:26:43 <ais523> pikhq: I mean, loads of encodings use control codes with particular meanings
21:26:49 <ais523> and those are moved to a different codepoint
21:26:51 <oerjan> <Gregor> And lest you forget, the logs are also available nicely formatted <-- um i seem to have forgotten that.
21:27:46 <pikhq> ais523: And IRC uses the ASCII set. Which have always had context-defined semantics. :)
21:28:26 <ais523> e.g in the IBM OEM character set, codepoint 1 is a smiley face
21:28:34 <ais523> and as a result, Unicode also has a smiley face, it just isn't codepoint 1
21:28:42 <pikhq> (literally, the proper behavior depends on the terminal you're using.)
21:28:43 <zzo38> (Yes I have once played an evolution card for the sole purpose of increasing my own active pokemon's retreat cost.)
21:28:45 <ais523> so shouldn't Unicode also have something that corresponds to IRC's codepoint 3?
21:29:07 <pikhq> ais523: Should it have a seperate encoding for VT-100 codes?
21:29:25 <ais523> zzo38: how did you still win when the opponent had energy removal?
21:29:33 <ais523> pikhq: that's more debatable, but quite possibly
21:30:29 <pikhq> There goes a whole 'nother bit, then. :P
21:30:31 <zzo38> ais523: Energy removal really doesn't affect it much if you know how to play the deck properly. There are ways to win against such a deck but energy removal isn't one of them. (You simply need to know when to attack and when to defend)
21:30:45 <pikhq> There were a *lot* of incompatible terminals back in the day.
21:31:27 <pikhq> And convention on the systems using those terminals was that the charset for all of them was the same, they just happened to interpret a small chunk of them differently.
21:31:41 <pikhq> Thus, the terminal setting being in TERM, not LC_*
21:32:55 <pikhq> Of course, *nowadays* that's just a comical bit of legacy. All UNIX terminals are VT-100, and all Win32 terminals are whatever the hell that DOS terminal thing is.
21:34:00 <Jafet> Comical? Surely thou jest
21:34:40 <fizzie> "All Unix terminals" have a sensible common subset, but they're certainly not all identical when it comes to specifics (window title setting if supported, 88/256-color modes, whatever).
21:34:45 <zzo38> I assume you know about the infamous 59EYE1MEWTWO deck. I thought of it far before I read about it, and when I did read about it they said it won't work due to your opponent can easily beat you in these ways... one way listed was by using ENERGY REMOVAL card. But I realized they were wrong about that. Yet, there is ways to win against such a deck. Any card that can poison with one energy can win against this deck.
21:35:03 <Jafet> xterm still thinks that being a superset of every other non-bitmapped DEC terminal ever made is an achievement
21:35:09 <pikhq> fizzie: Yeah, *but* it's quite different from how things used to be.
21:35:22 <pikhq> fizzie: Nowadays, everything is basically "VT-100 plus foo".
21:35:56 <pikhq> Which dramatically eliminates the need for a swath of (admittedly now-tiny) infrastructure for handling multiple terminal types.
21:36:04 <zzo38> ais523: Do you believe me, or do you believe the other report which I read?
21:36:57 <ais523> zzo38: hmm, I can see how you could attach energy rather than defend if you thought the opponent wouldn't attack for much
21:37:06 <pikhq> Instead of needing to know "how do I do *anything*", you just need to know "what level of color support is available, can I set the window title, etc."
21:37:19 <ais523> also, would that deck be better if it also had 4 copies of Bill in there? or would that lead to it decking itself?
21:37:49 <zzo38> ais523: It would lead to decking itself, and wouldn't help anyways since you can attach only one energy per turn regardless
21:38:25 <Jafet> Is Pokémon PSPACE complete
21:38:55 <olsner> it's Pokémon-SPACE complete
21:38:59 <ais523> Jafet: it may even be TC; I strongly suspect Magic: the Gathering is
21:39:22 <pikhq> If Magic isn't already TC, then it's merely a couple well-designed cards away.
21:39:24 <fizzie> ais523: I don't think Unicode's stated goal is to accommodate all encoding systems, just all languages/"writing systems"/symbol sets/whatever, and then some compatibility characters for reversible E->Unicode->E round-trip; but the IRC control codes survive the trip already, and moreover they are "presentational" things; I mean, Unicode by design doesn't have any bold/superscript/color-setting things.
21:39:43 <zzo38> Not only any card that can poison with one energy, but also any card that can confuse with one energy, has a possibility to win. Poison will probably be more effective here though, unless the player with the card causing confusion/poison has no bench pokemon cards.
21:39:49 <fizzie> E.g. the "Turing Machine" card.
21:39:52 <ais523> it has cat smileys because they're used in text messages on Japanese mobile phones, though
21:40:19 <fizzie> Tap to run a program, or whatever.
21:40:21 <Jafet> ais523: just abuse the private use plane
21:40:23 <zzo38> Unicode does not even have all the Commodore 64 character set
21:40:24 <pikhq> And, yeah, Unicode has *invented* things that are context-specific. (character variant markers)
21:40:26 <ais523> zzo38: wouldn't confusion cause the defence to stop working? so you could damage Mewtwo simply by attacking?
21:40:35 <Jafet> Actually, it's called "private use" because it's for private use
21:40:38 <fizzie> (Game ends if it doesn't halt.)
21:41:10 <zzo38> ais523: It might stop working, but you have a 50% chance to work every turn, otherwise you damage yourself (and it is even weak to itself so twice damaging yourself you lose)
21:41:18 <olsner> Jafet: it's not really private use once you need every phone in japan to cooperate over the all-important cat smileys
21:41:42 <ais523> zzo38: also, why doesn't a two-energy poisoning move work?
21:41:42 <pikhq> zzo38: Funny, I think all of PETSCII is in there.
21:41:51 <Jafet> Private use to japanese phones
21:42:11 <pikhq> Perhaps not in the BMP, though.
21:42:41 <zzo38> But poison will work simply because in a few turns you will lose, regardless of attack/defense. If your opponent has no bench pokemons though, you might still win if you attack.
21:42:52 <pikhq> Hmm, no, some of the graphic glyphs aren't.
21:44:07 <fizzie> ais523: Cat smileys are still "characters", though. They didn't put in colors in the Emoji set either, even though I think it has some.
21:44:19 <zzo38> Other cards that can beat a 59EYE1MEWTWO deck include LASS.
21:44:30 <pikhq> fizzie: Actually, there are a couple glyphs in the Emoji that *are* a specific color.
21:44:31 <ais523> what does Lass do, again?
21:44:40 <pikhq> I think it's something like RED SQUARE and GREEN SQUARE
21:45:22 <fizzie> pikhq: Yes, but I think some of the carrier-specific encodings had arbitrary color-setting codes. Not entirely sure here.
21:45:23 <zzo38> ais523: Both players reveal card in their hand, whichever ones are trainer cards are shuffled into their draw pile.
21:45:46 <ais523> zzo38: oh, just to restock on cards slightly
21:45:58 <fizzie> "# Exclude color and animation details from proposed character names except where necessary for distinction.
21:46:01 <fizzie> # For cases where color is the only source distinction, the convention is to map to BLACK and WHITE where there are two choices, and to BLACK, WHITE, and CHECKERED where there are three, and to BLACK, WHITE, CHECKERED. and STRIPED where there are four.
21:46:04 <fizzie> # Chart annotations will be added to indicate the preferred representations on color devices."
21:46:05 <pikhq> The only control character used for IRC color is U+02
21:46:50 <ais523> this line contains a U+02
21:47:13 <fizzie> (Two-digit U+dd looks rather weird, one sort of expects to have at least four.)
21:47:33 <pikhq> fizzie: Yeah, well. Most people don't use U+ for ASCII chars. :)
21:47:41 <zzo38> There are other cards that might work but have a very low possibility of working: SLEEP might work, and if you have many DIGGER + RECYCLE + ITEMFINDER then that might work too, but these are all low chances of actually working.
21:48:00 <pikhq> And four-digit U+dddd looks really really weird for ASCII.
21:48:07 <ais523> I think Energy Removal does work if you simply keep attacking while you're doing it
21:48:09 <pikhq> U+0003? I mean, really.
21:48:55 <zzo38> ais523: Not necessarily; it depends on circumstances. But yes, if you are able to keep attacking while doing it, it has a good chance of working.
21:50:05 <zzo38> But I can tell you I did win with the 59EYE1MEWTWO deck when the opponent had (and used) four ENERGY REMOVAL and four SUPER ENERGY REMOVAL, so it won't necessarily beat such a deck.
21:53:18 <fizzie> Not entirely sure why people went with eight hex digits for \U when six would've been enough. But maybe it's good to be prepared.
21:55:23 <zzo38> Do you know if you have ever done any of things in Pokemon Card of the things that I have listed?
21:55:27 <ais523> hopefully, by the time it reaches the 10FFFFth character, UTF-16 will have died out, and we'll be able to go above that limit
21:55:33 <zzo38> I have done all of them
21:58:09 <fizzie> ais523: The real question is what the added character ranges will be called. (There's the BMP and the Astral Planes; something like Transcendental Planes might work.)
21:58:14 <zzo38> ais523: UTF-8 does support larger numbers than 0x10FFFF although they are not considered valid Unicode characters even in future.
21:58:36 <zzo38> UTF-16 doesn't support such things though
21:58:38 <ais523> I don't think "Astral Planes" is an official name
21:58:43 <fizzie> And the UTF-8 standard was altered to not support them any more.
21:58:54 <fizzie> No, but it's a widespread one.
21:59:21 <zzo38> fizzie: No it still does; they are simply not allowed in Unicode text files and anything Unicode. If you are encoding arbitrary numbers you can still use it.
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22:00:10 <fizzie> zzo38: No. The latest UTF-8 RFC, 3629, says the longest encoding is four bytes.
22:01:06 <zzo38> fizzie: I know that. But it is not relevant to what I am trying to say.
22:02:15 <fizzie> It's not UTF-8 if you don't follow the standard, and that RFC is the standard.
22:03:07 <olsner> even limited to four bytes, iirc that gives you a slightly larger range than the valid unicode codepoints
22:03:27 <zzo38> It doesn't mean you cannot make up invalid codes to make up a not-UTF-8 but is otherwise same way
22:03:58 <fizzie> olsner: Well, the "too-high" four-byte sequences aren't UTF-8 either.
22:03:58 <zzo38> It will still be the same encoding, but it encodes arbitrary numbers instead of Unicode texts.
22:04:48 <fizzie> Sure, but you can't call it "UTF-8". (Or, well, I guess you can, but arguably you shouldn't.)
22:05:59 <zzo38> You can call it "UTF-8AN" where "AN" means "Arbitrary Numbers" to mean that all encoded numbers are valid instead of being a Unicode text
22:06:35 <fizzie> (Though I think there's still some standards titled "UTF-8" that are the old way and go up to 2^31.)
22:07:19 <Gregor> UTF-8 extended up to seven bytes has all the same important properties as UTF-8 (although the first byte happens to carry no payload bits), and no conformant UTF-8 reader should have trouble skipping over the unrecognized bytes (although it would have to be configured to actually do that and not just whine)
22:07:41 <pikhq> zzo38: I wouldn't be too surprised if eventually Unicode gets expanded beyond the 21 bit space.
22:08:02 <pikhq> In which case, of course, UTF-8's much encoding space will be quite handy.
22:08:33 <pikhq> Of course, Unicode expanding for that much space will probably take quite a while.
22:08:52 <pikhq> Unless they start trying to encode literally every attested CJK glyph.
22:09:12 <pikhq> (mind you, they're nearly trying to do that already. :P)
22:09:28 <Jafet> There probably haven't been a million ideographs ever invented
22:09:47 <pikhq> Jafet: This would include miswritings.
22:10:16 <Jafet> Probably even those.
22:10:17 <pikhq> Also, it's trivial to invent CJK glyphs.
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22:10:59 <Jafet> Yes, but it's not trivial to get your invented glyph through the consortium!
22:11:23 <Gregor> 🐐 <(Unicode goat begs to differ)
22:11:32 <pikhq> If they start encoding every attested CJK glyph, then it will be trivial.
22:12:36 <zzo38> I think Unicode is full of dumb things though.
22:13:09 <ais523> zzo38: are there any characters you use that aren't in Unicode?
22:13:09 <Jafet> They could make ideograph combining characters
22:13:18 <pikhq> Jafet: They already declined that solution.
22:13:54 <fizzie> Maybe they'll rethink when they're running out of space.
22:13:59 <Jafet> I suppose none of them wanted to implement the implied normalisation algorithm.
22:14:01 <pikhq> ais523: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bi%C3%A1ngbi%C3%A1ng_noodles
22:14:06 <fizzie> There's still quite a lot of it.
22:14:30 <ais523> Oracle survey (used as evidence in Oracle v. Google): almost one quarter of people prefer a smartphone costing $200 to an identical smartphone costing $100
22:14:31 <zzo38> ais523: Sometimes. In a few cases the private uses can be used, but I prefer using METAFONT and that stuff
22:14:47 <pikhq> I think that's the only glyph that's simultaneously "common" and not in Unicode.
22:16:16 <ais523> it'd be hilarious if a new letter really was invented as a marketing ploy
22:16:17 <olsner> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taito_(kanji) :)
22:16:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Is there even a point to trying to fit the whole Chinese writing system into Unicode?
22:16:21 <ais523> although ideograms aren't exactly "letters"?
22:16:23 <Jafet> ais523: the former name of the artist formerly known as the artist formerly known as Prince
22:16:26 <fizzie> The Klingon symbols are sort-of "common".
22:16:32 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: sure; it's so you can communicate in Chinese
22:16:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Unicode just isn't meant to represent that kind of thing, surely?
22:17:00 <Gregor> <ais523> Oracle survey (used as evidence in Oracle v. Google): almost one quarter of people prefer a smartphone costing $200 to an identical smartphone costing $100 // additionally, another quarter of people prefer a smartphone costing $200 but discounted to $100 to an identical one costing $100 in the first place.
22:17:14 <Jafet> pikhq already mentioned that they declined to do that
22:17:15 <Phantom_Hoover> It's built around representing things as characters, but the Chinese system doesn't use characters in that sense.
22:17:16 <pikhq> ais523: They more correctly map to morphemes.
22:17:28 <ais523> Gregor: but the survey asked an assumption that all else was useless
22:17:37 <pikhq> Admittedly, this too is *incorrect*, but much less so.
22:17:47 <Jafet> There are only code points for Chinese characters, not character components.
22:17:49 <pikhq> It's more like a morphemic syllabary.
22:17:53 <ais523> anyway, Google are taking this survey result as evidence that the survey is flawed, and that people aren't assuming all else is equal even though the survey told them to
22:18:10 <pikhq> Jafet: Part of the problem is that nobody entirely agrees on how to decompose the characters.
22:18:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Jafet, but that seems kind of like implementing English in Unicode by making each word a character.
22:18:42 <Jafet> Chinese characters are not words.
22:18:52 <Jafet> Words are made out of one or more characters.
22:18:55 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: If nearly every letter-pair had a variety of ligatures.
22:19:03 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: And if they encoded English morphemes.
22:19:14 <Jafet> I'm pretty sure the Unicode consortium is less confused on these matters than you, Phantom_Hoover.
22:19:28 <pikhq> Words are *written with* one or more characters.
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22:19:32 <Jafet> Or than you attribute to them.
22:19:40 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm using words in common usage, not however the Unicode consortium does it.
22:19:56 <pikhq> Chinese language family words are, of course, composed of one or more syllables, and each character maps (generally) to one syllable.
22:20:21 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm not saying they're confused, just voicing a thought in the hope of something interesting coming out of the discussion oh god I sound like kallisti.
22:20:30 <pikhq> ('cept in non-Chinese languages using the glyphs, where each character maps to "oh dear god that's confusing")
22:21:41 <kallisti> Phantom_Hoover: what's the problem? sounds reasonable to me. :D
22:21:53 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure that mapping from Japanese text to reading is AI-complete.
22:22:10 <Phantom_Hoover> It sounds like your constant "I wasn't being stupid, I was just <excuses>."
22:23:08 <oerjan> pikhq: i vaguely recall there's a character that is a non-syllabic r, or something
22:23:46 <oerjan> or is it that it's an actual suffix...
22:24:10 <pikhq> Probably. There's been time for edge cases to evolve.
22:24:21 <Jafet> oerjan: of course, mapping Chinese writing to Chinese speaking is a lost cause.
22:24:41 <pikhq> Jafet: Actually, not particularly.
22:24:56 <pikhq> There's relatively few ambiguities — most glyphs have only one reading.
22:25:32 <pikhq> However, Chinese speech-to-text is probably pretty hard.
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22:33:53 <Phantom_Hoover> I love whenever Reddit's progressive, liberal mask slips and they start baying for blood like Daily Mail readers.
22:35:13 <fizzie> Hard, but there's quite a few speakers, so there's markets. (I don't really know what the state-of-the-art there is, but there's certainly papers.)
22:35:30 <pikhq> I'm not entirely sure where the idea that they're progressive and liberal comes from.
22:36:12 <pikhq> Seems to me that Reddit spans the range from progressive and liberal to blood-seekers, with most Redditors being morons, and also most of them being relatively young.
22:36:50 <fizzie> Unusurprisingly quite a lot of what comes out there is about acoustic models, and the tones in particular.
22:37:10 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, loving your parallel conversation about speakers.
22:47:24 <ais523> so, it turns out that Google is using third-party cookies that would be not accepted by default by IE and Safari, except that it uses methods to get around the restrictions and make them be accepted by default anyway
22:47:42 <ais523> a different method for each
22:48:03 <ais523> I take this as evidence that marketing departments are evil, regardless of the rest of the company
23:09:32 <pikhq> ais523: The "method", such as it is, the header: P3P: CP="This is not a P3P policy! See http://www.google.com/support/accounts/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=151657 for more info."
23:10:09 <ais523> and P3P is a Microsoft-specific standard that ignores unknown tokens, so according to P3P, that's equivalent to saying that the cookie won't be used for any purpose at all
23:10:43 <ais523> it'd make more sense to simply not send a P3P header, than send one that says it isn't one
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23:10:52 <pikhq> And without the P3P header, then the cookies will always be declined.
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