00:01:35 -!- pikhq has joined. 00:04:36 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 00:40:32 -!- kallisti has joined. 00:40:37 where is the log that shows up at boot? 00:51:12 wl isn't working...... 00:55:39 -!- kallisti has quit (Changing host). 00:55:40 -!- kallisti has joined. 00:56:38 -!- kallisti has quit (Quit: leaving). 00:59:21 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:08:04 -!- cheater has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 01:14:11 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 01:22:15 -!- cheater has joined. 01:23:37 -!- azaq23 has joined. 01:36:16 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 01:50:37 -!- kallisti has joined. 01:50:38 ....so 01:50:42 why isn't there a laptop 01:50:51 with a touchpad keyboard? 01:50:53 so that 01:51:10 the OS can provide an arbitrary virtual interface? 01:51:32 it would be like a giant Nintendo DS. 01:51:38 Cost? 01:51:46 OS support being shaky? 01:51:56 It'd be a second screen, but. 01:51:56 I suppose it's not practical yet. 01:52:00 It'd need to be treated way differently 01:52:03 but damn it would be cool. 01:52:06 Like, you wanna use it on Linux? 01:52:10 Hope GNOME supports it 01:52:11 Go buy a goddamn iPad. 01:52:11 sure. 01:52:16 no ipad is different 01:52:22 Plus, lack of tactile sensation. 01:52:25 I'd want a touchscreen, and touchscreen keyboard. NEEDS TWO PARTS 01:52:29 Would make it harder to use, esp for touch typers. 01:52:44 buy _two_ ipads. 01:52:50 so like, when I switch over to insert-IDE it throws me a keyboard customized for the programming language. 01:52:56 with any relevant unicode symbols. 01:53:07 Actually, Acer made a cheap gimmick exactly like that 01:53:08 kallisti, that sounds... 01:53:12 Kinda hard to use. 01:53:21 Remebering a new layout because you switched programs? 01:53:30 Lack of tactile sentation, again, doesn't help. 01:53:38 that's true. 01:53:55 @google acer iconia 01:53:56 Oh, many people won't be hurt-- they hunt and peck anyways. 01:53:59 get on that, rearchers 01:53:59 http://www.acer.com/iconia/ 01:53:59 Title: Acer AspireOne Happyt 01:54:03 But, people already familiar with computers? 01:54:04 touchscreen interfaces with tactile sensation. 01:54:04 Yeah, uh 01:55:21 I think it would be a step in the right direction. with a single touchscreen it's difficult to cram both control and display elements into the same space. 01:55:51 with two you would have a display screen with some control elements like an ipad or whatever, and then a lower screen specifically for control. or however else you'd want to set it up. 01:55:51 (The emulator people would appreciate it) 01:56:50 basically I want the ASCII era of concrete syntax to go away. 01:57:33 where things like, say, improved record semantics, gets bogged down by a sudden lack of conveniently placed keys on a standard keyboard. 01:58:26 That needs to become standard first. 01:58:44 Otherwise, you make it very troublesome for people who have standard keyboards, can't afford touchpad ones, or just prefer standard ones. 01:58:51 After all. 01:58:52 sure, that's a given. 01:59:02 A touchpad keyboard would need pressure detection or something. 01:59:08 Or else, you can't rest your fingers on it. 01:59:14 Plus, lots of things of that nature. 01:59:17 What is the warranty on a touchpad keyboard 01:59:21 Ten months? 01:59:43 the screen should just zap you whenever you're on top of a key 01:59:45 to let you know it's there. 01:59:47 gives you a feel for it. 02:00:02 I prefer physical keyboard with ASCII and that stuff. I like the original IBM PC keyboard with the function keys on the left. The only problem with that one is no indicator LEDs. 02:00:13 is this iconia an actual thing you can buy 02:00:14 well, if you wanted to limit it to JUST keyboard-style stuff 02:00:27 or in theory could ever buy 02:00:32 you could have a fixed grid of raised buttons, but with some sort of display mechanism to change the keys? I don't even know. 02:00:46 http://www.artlebedev.com/everything/optimus/ 02:01:30 only $2,068 02:01:44 48x48 pixel color OLED screen under every key 02:01:57 I think you don't need to display on every key. That would waste energy and program size a lot it seems. 02:02:14 yeah, clear keys above a single commodity display makes a lot more sense 02:02:37 but anyway, why are we looking at the keyboard? 02:02:49 Who needs keycaps, anyways? 02:02:58 kmc: I suppose you are correct about that. But still I don't think you need a display for all keys even if it is the same one 02:03:05 yeah, i don't either 02:03:26 We need HOLOGRAPHIC KEYCAPS 02:04:01 i guess some people like the no-label keyboards because it forces them to learn to touch type 02:04:33 it mostly seems like a stupid way to show off 02:04:51 the copy on the Das Keyboard website certainly gives that impression 02:05:11 I've heard the Das Keyboards are actually rather high-quality keyboards, though... 02:05:20 Not really 02:05:20 So, even disregarding caps/not-caps, might be worth getting. 02:05:21 yeah 02:05:27 they have a version with labels 02:05:46 I also heard when they started out they were shitty dome keyboards, which is... Stupid. 02:06:04 $100 premium for no key labels? Screw that. 02:06:09 I suppose the one without labels might also be useful in case you need to attach your own labels to all of the keys for any reason 02:06:33 $100 to show everyone that you're a L33T H5X0R? 02:06:37 seems like a bargain 02:06:51 More efficient uses of that $100, though. 02:06:58 Although even if there is labels, you can still put other labels on top, but they would need to be opaque. Without labels already on there, you can also use transparent labels, or just direct marking on the keys 02:06:59 They sell a set of four differently-coloured keys for you to replace the WASD cluster 02:07:12 * pikhq suggests a cheap monitor which always has that Matrix-effect screensaver going) 02:07:30 Jafet: What, cause WASD is hard to find? 02:07:54 Come on, the keycaps are blank! 02:08:10 Why do you even need to find WASD that easily; the F and J are the keys you should find easily they will have raised dots to find them easily. 02:08:13 And F/J still have the indent to make them easy to find. 02:08:47 zzo38: PC games use WASD as directional keys. 02:08:59 Well, the strange thing is that they use clicking Cherry switches, so gamers wouldn't buy them anyway. I don't know whether Das has any idea what kind of niche market it wants to sell to. 02:09:06 pikhq: It depend on the game. Some use arrow keys. 02:09:19 -!- amca has joined. 02:09:23 zzo38: Not if you want to mouse and use any other keys. :) 02:09:52 they want to sell to office workers whose coping strategy is to pretend they are leet ninja rockstars 02:10:08 Hmm, that could be a significant market. 02:10:11 that and people who just want a keyboard with serious tactile response 02:10:21 there are a few others in that category 02:10:23 Jafet: How do Cherry switches compare with e.g. a Model M? 02:10:26 I have written many games for the PC, and none of them use WASD for directional keys; usually the arrow keys are used although sometimes the number pad and/or HJKL also work. 02:10:49 zzo38: It's basically the expected input scheme for first-person games, though. 02:11:13 The clicking ones are meant to evoke the Model M, but they are not buckling-spring switches, so they don't have anywhere near the durability and tactile response 02:11:42 pikhq: Well, I don't play or make first-person games; I suppose you might want to find WASD in case of first-person games possibly; but maybe you can use a joystick too? 02:12:07 unicomp makes keyboards similar to the Model M 02:12:09 Buckling-spring switches create the sound, tactile feedback and electrical signal with the same spring, so they never register incorrectly 02:12:15 some with a pointing stick too 02:12:31 Does anyone make keyboard similar to the original IBM PC keyboard with function keys on the left? 02:12:34 I thought Unicomp took over the IBM keyboard division 02:12:49 So they're rebranded Model M 02:13:00 i wonder which switch technology is used in the Kinesis Advantage 02:13:12 it's pretty loud and has decent feedback 02:13:32 If they use Cherry switches, you can be sure this fact will be advertised somewhere 02:13:42 The switches seem to be a new status symbol thingy 02:15:17 i don't think Kinesis has quite caught on to the hacker rockstar ninja aesthetic 02:15:29 their keyboards and website look like they were designed in the mid-90's 02:15:47 also the keyboards are expensive as hell, for probably no good reason 02:16:01 kmc: Labor. 02:16:07 They're hand-made. 02:16:22 i mean, define "hand-made" 02:16:29 they're not whittled by hand from old-growth plastic trees 02:16:44 I have also seen hacker keyboards, which are very good for UNIX; but lack a number pad or any way to send those codes. (I think they should make the keyboard with one key that allows you to send any code you enter) 02:16:58 how much does a kinesis factory worker make? 02:17:39 zzo38: What, the Happy Hacking? Those things are... Meh. 02:18:33 but it has "hacking" in the name 02:19:15 They're more-or-less laptop-layout boards. 02:19:20 With dome switches. 02:19:26 i use my happy hacking keyboard to comment on hacker news about the hacker lifestyle 02:19:29 For too-much. 02:20:08 i also have a standalone version of the thinkpad keyboard with trackpoint 02:20:10 that's pretty good 02:20:27 i wonder if the classic thinkpad keyboard will still exist in 5 years 02:21:05 of the 5 current models listed as "ThinkPad X series" on Lenovo's website, four have chiclet keyboards 02:21:09 Does the classic thinkpad still exist now? 02:21:23 i think so, yes 02:21:30 but the "ThinkPad" brand name doesn't mean anything 02:21:43 it just means lenovo wants to sell that model of laptop / netbook / android tablet to businesses 02:22:28 otoh, if the branding is meaningless then maybe the IdeaPads are worth looking at 02:23:15 ... Chiclet keyboards? 02:23:17 Yipe! 02:24:26 i'm also not sure the legendary ThinkPad quality isn't just nerd hipsterism 02:24:27 why you not like chiclets? 02:24:39 in 6 years of owning thinkpads I've had a lot of shit break 02:24:54 and a few bad interactions with the repair people, as well as some good ones 02:24:58 quintopia: Chiclet keyboards are about as shitty as you can get without resorting to a membrane keyboard. 02:25:24 aren't those independent properties 02:25:34 pikhq: how so 02:25:53 i think today "chiclet" just means there are gaps between the keys 02:26:16 kmc: No, "chiclet" refers to a particular keyboard switch type... 02:26:20 it's not meant to imply the terrible switch technology of the ZX Spectrum 02:27:08 Like on remote controls, calculators, and the ZX Spectrum. 02:27:42 Also, 6 years? That's all after Lenovo bought the brand. :) 02:27:51 hipster 02:28:14 Not that I could judge the quality before that, as I never owned an IBM ThinkPad. 02:28:59 the first one I owned was the X41 02:29:08 it was IBM branded and designed by IBM 02:29:17 even if Lenovo owned the company by that point 02:29:28 also the repair centers are *still* IBM 02:29:51 to open a ticket you fill out a form on an IBM website that was clearly derived from a 50 year old mainframe app 02:30:22 so I'm trying to manually configure my wlan interface now. 02:30:31 and it hangs on DHCPDISCOVER 02:30:40 kmc: Probably still is a 50 year old mainframe app. 02:30:47 DHCPDISCOVER on wlan0 to 255.255.255.255 port 67 interval 8 02:30:47 DHCPDISCOVER on wlan0 to 255.255.255.255 port 67 interval 7 02:30:47 DHCPDISCOVER on wlan0 to 255.255.255.255 port 67 interval 11 02:30:47 DHCPDISCOVER on wlan0 to 255.255.255.255 port 67 interval 11 02:30:47 DHCPDISCOVER on wlan0 to 255.255.255.255 port 67 interval 12 02:30:49 yeah 02:30:49 DHCPDISCOVER on wlan0 to 255.255.255.255 port 67 interval 12 02:30:52 No DHCPOFFERS received. 02:30:54 No working leases in persistent database - sleeping. 02:31:37 ..what the hell is going on. 02:31:39 i think it's the same form you use to request repairs on your $50,000,000 zSeries mainframe installation 02:32:02 assuming you can't afford the 40U rackmount on-call service technician 02:33:14 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiclet_keyboard "The term has also been used more recently to describe several popular low-profile, low-travel keyboards. These keyboards have small, flat, squarish keys that are separated from each other by some space on the baseplate they protrude from - a feature common to the old chiclet keyboards. They are not chiclets in the earlier sense, however, as they do not use a rubber membrane or directly moulde 02:33:14 d hard key tops as the keys themselves and instead use a more modern technology." 02:33:29 you see this usage a lot in current reporting on new models of laptop etc 02:34:04 when i search for the term i get a lot of that 02:34:10 yeah i thought that is what you meant 02:36:21 it is what i meant 02:38:43 also the thinkpad power adapters frequently break at the plug that goes into the computer 02:38:55 -!- kallisti has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 02:39:15 this was true in the IBM days, and with the first Lenovo models, and they've recently taken steps to fix it 02:44:11 kmc: Confusing. The original sense of chiclet keyboards are still around. 02:45:42 yes 02:46:29 apple and thinkpad laptops are pretty similar 02:46:36 they both have pretty good build quality 02:46:43 they both have a dedicated fanbase who will ignore flaws 02:47:24 and they both appeal to a specific aesthetic 02:47:36 i'll admit that part of my reason for buying thinkpads is aesthetics and peer pressure 02:47:40 chiclet keyboard is worst keyboard 02:47:52 not much in the way of choice with laptops these days though 02:48:20 what specifically don't you like about chiclet keyboards (in the new sense) 02:48:51 key travel, key shape, key spacing, key switches 02:48:54 :) 02:49:05 compared to other laptop keyboards? 02:49:12 compared to any keyboards 02:49:19 i realize that travel is low on all laptops these days 02:49:26 but even so i prefer the tapered keys 02:49:31 i like them. they are slim, cheap, easily replaced, and the switches never cause me trouble 02:49:36 my fingers have a tendency to 'hang up' on the edge of the key caps 02:49:41 i like low travel 02:49:47 but even disregarding that, they just don't feel very good 02:49:57 as for switches, it's not that they are necessarily troublesome 02:50:08 it's that i have very picky taste in keyswitches these days :P 02:50:10 i think the thinkpad chiclet keys are still tapered a bit 02:50:22 you ain't finding a laptop with topres though so *shrug* 02:50:25 and i don't know what keyswitch they use 02:50:37 laptops are generally scissor switches 02:50:39 but it's not clear why a chiclet layout would require them to change that 02:50:49 yeah 02:50:54 i forgot to list one other thing i dislike about them 02:50:58 faddiness 02:51:27 the thinkpad keys i've seen have a keycap attached to a scissor, above a little plastic nipple thing which touches the circuit board 02:52:04 -!- augur has joined. 02:52:10 presumably that's normal for scissor switches 02:52:19 i never pry at laptop keys, i don't want to break them 02:52:25 "ATTENTION: Please note that this keyboard has black labeling on dark gray plastic keycaps. In low lit environments, this keyboard will appear to be blank! This keyboard is not available with higher contrast keycaps; for better visibility, please consider a white keyboard." 02:52:26 lulz 02:52:33 so i haven't been under the keycaps much 02:52:43 thatsracist.gif 02:52:52 oh, realforce? 02:52:56 yeah, it is pretty low contrast 02:53:02 looks kind of sexy 02:53:02 what's the point of that 02:53:16 appearance is really the only point 02:53:22 but i prefer blank caps because i type multiple layouts 02:53:28 and i don't really like typing on the wrong letters 02:53:43 i prefer labeled keys because i type multiple layouts ;) 02:54:04 the labels don't do you any good if they don't represent the key you are pressing :P 02:54:07 kmc: Not helpful if you type multiple layouts on the same board. 02:54:21 i'm losing some of my qwerty skill, it's been a year since i had to type it daily 02:54:25 i usually type dvorak without looking at the keys 02:54:29 but i can still get over 80 wpm 02:54:32 but sometimes i have to type a password or something in qwerty, without echo 02:54:34 Which I don't, because fuck kana layouts. 02:54:39 it used to be even with my dvorak speed though 02:54:43 and then the labels help 02:54:50 yeah 02:54:50 i can still touch type qwerty but not with great accuracy 02:54:58 i know what you mean on that count 02:55:10 touch typing is easy but single letters get hard after you're past that phase for awhile 02:55:16 yeah 02:55:22 actually i pretty much can't touch-type qwerty on the kinesis 02:55:27 i've started pairing various letters in my head though 02:55:32 because i've never done it regularly 02:55:32 i/c 02:55:33 イエユイノボメノレンミリヨジュヨゴハサテカナエクタマエ 02:55:36 ... 02:55:38 v/. 02:55:39 etc. 02:55:41 What 02:55:47 * pikhq whats 02:55:50 when i'm using dvorak and i copy/paste things i actually think ctrl+i 02:55:52 lol 02:56:02 yeah i do that, but only for some keys 02:56:24 the hardest key is a :V 02:56:26 i always get it mixed up 02:56:38 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 02:56:39 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host). 02:56:39 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 02:57:05 Uh, it remains in the same place. 02:57:21 :trollface: 02:58:18 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 03:00:42 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 03:01:41 -!- Friendship has changed nick to Gregor. 03:01:52 Arrrrrrrrrgh 03:01:52 Gregor: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 03:01:58 @messages 03:01:58 elliott said 3d 8h 34m 4s ago: "ℒ was originally described to generalize the question raised by Befunge/index.php." not quite true 03:02:04 Accidentally denicked. 03:02:08 -!- Gregor has changed nick to Friendship. 03:02:14 You never saw that. 03:02:23 oh good, we're friends again <3 03:02:38 I am friends with all! I am the abstract concept of friendship! 03:03:36 So anyway, I got an email from somebody who apparently runs the blog championofbirds.com . 03:03:47 He says he wants to interview me for his blog because he found my hats site or something? 03:03:54 In short, "Guh?" 03:04:36 lol 03:04:40 that is ... interesting 03:04:47 did you ask him what kind of hats birds like? 03:12:56 -!- amca has quit (Quit: Farewell). 03:14:35 myndzi: I haven't responded, it was an email. 03:14:38 I'm too busy being baffled. 03:14:47 Does one accept this kind of invitation? 03:14:49 It's so weird. 03:15:32 it's a perfect opportunity for trolling 03:15:37 do you have a site about hats? 03:15:44 Respond by telephone. 03:15:47 codu.org/hats 03:15:50 he could be just spamming you 03:15:58 And use a payphone. 03:16:10 myndzi: To what end? 03:16:24 haha nice 03:16:31 Friendship: lulz, obviously 03:17:00 i honestly have no idea what he wants to interview you about though so i don't have any particular ideas heh 03:17:13 this is the kind of thing a pal of mine from dalnet used to turn into comedy gold all the time 03:17:20 except in his case it was over irc 03:18:04 sacring the police , that lobster would snap is claw aroung , KLAP !!! KLAP !!! V..V 03:18:11 there's one gem from such a conversation, hehe 03:18:23 The problem is that since he found me via my web site, my real name is known and hence my reputation is risked. 03:18:27 sacre rouge 03:18:34 what 03:18:53 if some guy i didn't even know wanted to interview me i wouldn't be terribly worried if he was like omg i tried to interview myndzi but he trolled me! 03:18:56 :P 03:18:59 on the other hand i understand 03:19:08 you may as well do it, could be interesting 03:19:14 and if it sucks you can always switch to trolling midway :> 03:19:15 If I loon it up and then that becomes the top search result for "gregor richards", yikes. 03:19:23 haha 03:19:38 then people will think you have a sense of humor? 03:19:38 :P 03:19:48 ur mather is SNACK LORD! 03:20:05 I think I'll just send him back this: http://codu.org/hats/NewTopHat-med.jpg 03:20:09 Say "That's my whole interview." 03:20:13 "That's the answer to every question." 03:20:52 i forgot about snack lord, that's one of my favorites 03:23:33 In my idea of new programming language I have written part of specification already. There are similarity to Haskell. But, some of my ideas are: One type of kind # might be (unsafe "i8"). And all monomorphic types of kind ? (even if they have polymorphic components) are automatically instances of (\x -> Prelude.typeOf :: x -> Prelude.Type) although it is not implied so you need to mention it explicitly if you use it. 03:24:04 (The other thing, various things are put into the prelude which isn't what Haskell does) 03:24:49 I don't know, if this seem at all sensible to you or not. 03:28:28 Oh, looka that, he's actually one of five people who runs that site >_> <_< 03:28:42 That lends it 1/5th more credence. 03:32:45 what reputation, gregor. what reputation. 03:33:15 ... :( 03:33:40 this is your first chance to MAKE A REPUTATION 03:33:46 I've made quite a name for myself in certain circles which produce content not eligible for minors or distributable in most countries. 03:33:46 and also to get more hats votes 03:34:56 i can see you wouldn't want to tarnish that, then 03:36:35 wait... 03:36:46 * oerjan suddenly realizes he doesn't know where those hats have been 03:36:59 Hooray, hat fetish! 03:39:39 you can leave your hat on 03:45:47 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 04:07:11 -!- Jafet has joined. 04:13:30 ...anyone? UPDATE 04:13:43 meh 04:13:50 hi sgeo 04:14:02 monqy, update 04:14:09 oh no 04:14:11 what have I done 04:14:16 I was just saying hello ;_; 04:14:32 hi monqy 04:14:38 hi 04:20:10 -!- PiRSquared17 has changed nick to Insert_non-forma. 04:22:10 -!- Friendship has set topic: It Is The Absolute Verifiable Truth & Proven Fact That Your Belly-Button Signature Ties To Viviparous Mama. | 4 corner harmonic 24 hour time cube | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/wiki/ has moved servers!. 04:25:52 My Little Stallman: Foot Dirt is Magic 04:31:38 -!- Insert_non-forma has changed nick to PiRSquared. 04:34:33 -!- MoALTz_ has quit (Read error: Connection timed out). 04:37:02 -!- MoALTz_ has joined. 05:16:50 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:22:48 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 05:24:04 -!- PiRSquared has changed nick to PiRSquaredBai. 05:36:22 Foot dirt may lead to open sores. 05:47:53 -!- MoALTz_ has quit (Read error: Connection timed out). 05:54:43 -!- cswords_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 05:55:07 -!- cswords has joined. 07:06:01 -!- cheater has quit (Read error: No route to host). 07:06:52 -!- cheater has joined. 07:19:24 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 07:19:29 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 07:27:56 -!- TeruFSX_ has joined. 07:30:51 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 07:39:18 Jafet: open source and foot dirt? reminds me of richard stallman 07:44:23 -!- pikhq has joined. 07:44:25 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:54:25 -!- MoALTz has joined. 09:01:26 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: MAYBE DO NOT COME FROM CHOICE). 09:52:53 So. My javascript interpreter/debugger is finished. 09:53:06 I can pause the program at any point and inspect memory at will. 10:15:11 -!- Vorpal has joined. 11:01:30 -!- ais523 has joined. 11:46:14 -!- derdon has joined. 11:55:21 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 12:26:50 Would brainfuck be turing complete if we'd have to know at compile time for each loop in which memory cell we currently are? 12:28:37 -!- cswords_ has joined. 12:29:36 In beam I have the problem that I only figured a way out how to write loops which don't bother if the beam is even or odd by using the beam != store instructions which requires me to know at time of writing the program 12:29:40 what the current cell address is. 12:30:35 the other loops would require to know whether the cell's value is even or odd 12:30:50 but I can decide even/odd at runtime somehow. 12:31:20 but that'd be tediously complex :( 12:31:50 -!- cswords has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 12:34:51 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:45:08 mRoman: I think no, because it couldn't access infinite memory 12:45:38 why not just use only even numbers? 12:45:47 BF is still complete if + and - add and subtract 2 rather than 1 12:46:01 Speaking of Beam, is the comparison in u/n modulo 256 or not? I.e. if the store is >= 256, is it always false? 12:46:03 still TC, that is 12:47:25 ais523: With unbounded tape cells, I wouldn't bet on that. I mean, it wouldn't surprise me if the TC three-cell brainfuck construction always knew in which cell it is. 12:47:59 fizzie: Yes. 12:48:12 fizzie: oh, I was thinking about the usual mod-256 version 12:48:28 bignum BF I somehow have mentally filed as a different language 12:48:29 actually 12:48:32 I blame it on too much BF Joust 12:48:34 if store >= 256 12:48:41 then beam != store is always true 12:49:00 but 12:49:04 you can switch them. 12:49:28 Switch what? 12:49:31 somehow. 12:49:48 you have a beam = (store % 256); instruction 12:49:53 and a store = beam; instruction 12:50:30 you'd need a temporary location to not lose the beam, though. 12:51:07 More imporantly, a temporary location not to lose the store, and there's no other unboundedly large place, I suppose. 12:52:09 You can't save the store. 12:52:15 memory cells are limited to 8bit 12:52:23 Yes, I know. 12:53:07 (which means we can only save (store % 256)) 12:53:07 or 12:53:17 you'd have to spread store >= 256 to different memory cells somehow. 12:54:11 But yeah. 12:54:22 Basically it's limited to 256 memory cells which are easily accessible. 13:02:23 Using only 0 and 1 should be possible 13:02:36 and it should also be possible to encode data in the control flow 13:07:55 Like 13:08:01 v-- < 13:08:02 >+'n:>>>>^ >:>>>+: 13:08:05 eh 13:08:25 http://codepad.org/HQoJOyhh <- which produces 101 13:08:56 I have a rather non-optimal but I-think-correct translation from brainfuck to Beam here. 13:09:23 oh. 13:09:25 It has an unbounded tape of 8-bit values. 13:09:25 Cool 13:09:53 It looks like this: http://sprunge.us/UORC 13:12:23 The 'XXX' at ^6 can be just an unconditional jump back to [ for easiness. 13:12:32 `(`) are you sure? 13:12:40 /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: (`): not found 13:12:48 @decrements to zero 13:12:48 Unknown command, try @list 13:13:14 `(`) with an initial store value of 1 13:13:15 ie 13:13:17 /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: (`): not found 13:13:20 '`(`) 13:13:37 ok, it decrements to zero 13:13:44 but control flow is redirected to left. 13:14:03 :'`(`) prints 00 13:14:21 mRoman: Initial store value is always even when that is hit. 13:14:21 :`(`) prints 0 13:14:36 mRoman: It's one of 2, 4, 6, ... always. 13:14:39 ok. 13:15:02 (Since it's at the marker cell of 3, 5, 7, ...) 13:18:38 I'll see about writing a program that performs that transformation, and try it on some loopy brainfuck code, but maybe not while I'm technically supposed to do work-stuff. 13:22:26 -!- PiRSquaredBai has changed nick to PiRSquaredHai. 13:29:13 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 14:04:00 Well, it does http://sprunge.us/COCL => http://sprunge.us/VOdH correctly; code at http://sprunge.us/SePY 14:12:33 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 14:30:52