00:00:33 <oerjan> in fact i recall that applies also to minimal systems
00:00:35 <tswett> Just try to write the compact metric Hausdorff space as a Haskell datatype, and it ought to work...
00:00:41 <tswett> ...what's a compact metric Hausdorff space?
00:01:22 <oklopol> compact = open covers have finite subcovers, metric = topology is given by a metric, hausdorff = any two points have open neighborhoods that don't intersect, space = space
00:02:00 <oklopol> these are some of the most important things in all mathematics afaik
00:02:08 <oerjan> tswett: actually metric implies hausdorff, that was redundant
00:02:17 <tswett> = final object in the category of frontiers?
00:02:29 <oklopol> yeah, take the distance between the points, and take two balls around them with half that distance as radius
00:02:54 <oerjan> tswett: also iirc you get a quotient from a continuous surjection if the spaces are compact hausdorff
00:03:14 <tswett> Come to think of it, final objects in a category are always unique up to unique isomorphism, aren't they? So given a category of frontiers, it must contain exactly one final frontier. So in order to have multiple spaces, you must have multiple categories of frontiers.
00:03:31 <oklopol> iirc they are unique trivialy
00:03:47 <oklopol> what the hell is a frontier
00:03:48 <tswett> Oh... right. Given two of them, there's exactly one morphism each way, isn't there.
00:03:50 <oerjan> (which S^1 and S^2 are)
00:04:04 <oklopol> tswett: yeah, so in fact it's an isomorphism
00:04:36 <tswett> A frontier is an object in the category whose final object is a space.
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00:05:16 <tswett> Well, if there two objects C and D in a category, the fact that there's exactly one arrow in each direction doesn't mean that the arrows are inverses of each other, does it?
00:05:37 <tswett> Who says you'll end up with the identity arrow?
00:05:43 <oklopol> there's just one such arrow
00:05:51 <oklopol> well right you need another application of finality
00:06:04 <tswett> ...Ah, right. Since it's a final object, it has only one endomorphism.
00:06:36 <tswett> So, um, epi-, mono-, and iso- correspond to epi, monic, and invertible. What do auto- and endo- correspond to, if anything?
00:07:03 <tswett> This is a question of linguistics, not mathematics.
00:07:08 <tswett> Of terminology, rather.
00:07:46 <oerjan> endo = (domain = codomain)
00:08:30 <oerjan> i.e. A -> A for some A
00:08:51 <oklopol> i getting the feeling that he didn't need a definition
00:09:01 <tswett> Definition endo {a : Cat} (c : Obj a) := Arrow c c
00:09:21 <oklopol> oerjan: he's asking something way more profound
00:10:00 <oklopol> where the Power of the Continuum will not help you.
00:10:04 <tswett> What's up with natural transformations?
00:10:12 <oklopol> yeah those things are tits
00:10:18 <oerjan> `? natural transformation
00:10:21 <HackEgo> natural transformation? ¯\(°_o)/¯
00:10:27 <HackEgo> Functors are just morphisms in the category of small categories
00:11:00 <tswett> If that's what a functor is, is a natural transformation anything?
00:11:11 <oklopol> i really need to go, let's do this again now that we have a third eager mathematician here
00:11:19 <oerjan> `learn Natural transformations are just morphisms in the category of functors
00:11:31 <tswett> oerjan: ...is that all?
00:11:42 <oklopol> tswett: that's not really saying anything
00:11:50 <oerjan> `run mv wisdom/natural wisdom/"natural transformation"
00:12:00 <oerjan> `? natural transformation
00:12:03 <HackEgo> Natural transformations are just morphisms in the category of functors
00:12:25 <tswett> I would expect a morphism in the category of functors to be, like, a pair of functors such that when the first one is composed on the left with the domain, you get the same thing as when the second one is composed on the right with the codomain.
00:12:33 <oklopol> tswett: that's only meaningfull if you already know what the morphisms in the category of functors are
00:12:33 <tswett> Or maybe vice versa... no, it doesn't matter.
00:12:55 <itidus21> `pastelogs [n]atural transformation
00:13:12 <oerjan> tswett: the functors are the domains and codomains of the natural transformations.
00:14:21 <itidus21> `pastelogs natural transformation
00:14:34 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.7952
00:17:13 <tswett> So, speaking of category theory.
00:17:23 <tswett> Friendship: do you know of any IRC channels devoted to the discussion of FIM?
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00:29:15 <oklopol> so i went outside and couldn't swallow anymore and started sweathing like a horse. i drew the conclusion that i'm not healthy yet.
00:30:49 <oerjan> a great victory for logic
00:32:11 <Friendship> (In other words, not really, but calamari and I hang out there)
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00:33:52 <oklopol> i can't live without swallowing o_O
00:34:04 -!- augur has joined.
00:34:24 <oklopol> i think i should get this thing checked out but i have no idea how you actually go to a hospital :D
00:34:45 <oklopol> perhaps i could just walk to a pharmacy and be all like hi my throat hurts, do i take my pants off now
00:35:17 <oklopol> they'd call the cops who would then take me to a mental institute and i could live there happily until i died of old happiness
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00:43:01 <elliott> hmm, the sitenotice has now been up for 9 days
00:43:15 <elliott> wonder whether i should take it down or let it run for two weeks in total
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00:58:13 <shachaf> elliott: You should add an additional nested picture of lime slices.
00:59:40 * Sgeo writes a CL macro that he likes
00:59:50 <Sgeo> Except for it breaking on being given 0 lists :/
01:00:01 <Sgeo> http://paste.lisp.org/display/128071
01:00:21 <Sgeo> And that progn makes me feel funny
01:01:06 <Sgeo> I mean, dolist has its own implied progn, why should I need to give another?
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01:02:38 <pikhq_> Yeah, today's Odinsday, yesterday was Tyrsday, tomorrow's Thorsday.
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01:14:01 <oerjan> > [case gcd x 15 of 1->show x;3->"Fizz";5->"Buzz";_->"FizzBuzz"|x<-[1..100]]
01:14:02 <lambdabot> ["1","2","Fizz","4","Buzz","Fizz","7","8","Fizz","Buzz","11","Fizz","13","1...
01:14:31 <oerjan> @@ @run length @show [case gcd x 15 of 1->show x;3->"Fizz";5->"Buzz";_->"FizzBuzz"|x<-[1..100]]
01:19:08 <Jafet> > zipWith id (cycle [show,show,const"Fizz",show,const"Buzz",const"Fizz",show,show,const"Fizz",const"Buzz",show,const"Fizz",show,show,const"FizzBuzz"]) [1..]
01:19:09 <lambdabot> ["1","2","Fizz","4","Buzz","Fizz","7","8","Fizz","Buzz","11","Fizz","13","1...
01:40:09 <kmc> Sgeo, so it's like a nested loop?
01:40:10 <lambdabot> kmc: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
01:40:42 <Friendship> http://www.justinvacula.com/2012/02/really-really-really-inoffensive.html
01:41:13 <Sgeo> I made a new version, hold on
01:41:22 <Sgeo> http://paste.lisp.org/display/128072
01:46:59 <Sgeo> Not... really, I think
01:49:32 <elliott> <Sgeo> I mean, dolist has its own implied progn, why should I need to give another?
01:49:37 <elliott> Because you're in if, not dolist?
01:50:46 <Sgeo> I don't need the progn for if, because the backquoted thing is one form.
01:50:51 <elliott> Sgeo: Anyway, you want to do the (if rest-lists ...) at macro-expand time, not at runtime.
01:51:17 <elliott> But what do you mean why do you need to give another?
01:52:12 <Sgeo> You're still looking at the first one? Because the progn ,@body expands inside a dolist, so the expansion has a redundant progn
01:52:36 <elliott> Not in the first one, it doesn't.
01:53:12 <elliott> Sgeo: That's just because you're using a ,
01:53:25 <elliott> Use ,@(if ... body) and it'd work fine.
01:53:44 <Sgeo> Oh, hah, good point.
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02:04:51 <elliott> oh, 1.19 must come out soon!
02:06:15 <elliott> looks like it'll be deployed to all wikipedias by 03:00 UTC
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02:11:13 <Sgeo> elliott, what do you think of Let Over Lambda?
02:12:25 <elliott> I would probably not recommend it.
02:13:07 <oerjan> it's a bit of a letdown?
02:13:19 <Sgeo> elliott, I looked at a few chapters
02:13:43 <Sgeo> But I do see why it's controversial
02:13:55 <elliott> I understand it needs serious proof-reading.
02:14:05 <elliott> And the author seems a bit of a crank, and annoying from what I've seen of him.
02:14:51 <elliott> All the good reviews I've heard of it seem to universally come from people I would not consider experienced enough to judge it, and everyone qualified I've heard speak of it hasn't done so in a positive light.
02:15:06 <elliott> Have you read PCL? On Lisp?
02:15:22 <Sgeo> Glanced at a bit of On Lisp, looked through PCL and should probably work through it
02:15:31 <Sgeo> I think I looked at PCL a long time ago too
02:15:51 <elliott> Let Over Lambda is meant to be a "sequel" to On Lisp, I gather. I also gather it's vastly inferior (though On Lisp has its problems too, I hear).
02:16:34 <Sgeo> When I mentioned On Lisp in #lisp , they said something about perhaps it being best to know PG's quirks first.
02:16:42 <Sgeo> Or something, I don't remember exactly what was said
02:16:56 <elliott> It would be best to know #lisp's quirks before asking them questions, too.
02:17:16 <elliott> Anyway, since you will never actually develop anything in the language, you will not be harmed by reading it.
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02:19:07 <elliott> Sorry, am I meant to pretend your weekly language obsessions will actually develop into using the language?
02:19:35 <Sgeo> Haskell was more than a weekly obsession, I think
02:19:39 <Sgeo> It went on for a few months
02:20:19 <elliott> Yes, and you wrote a total of 0 real programs in it, and abandoned it for other languages (2 so far).
02:21:06 <Sgeo> I wrote a program in Haskell that I didn't tell you about.
02:21:12 <Sgeo> (Didn't get used though)
02:21:27 <elliott> Okay, so if a few months = 1 program, 1 week = 0 programs.
02:22:50 <Sgeo> Anyways, I think I will use continue to use earmuffs, LOL's objections to the contrary untill I actually understand them
02:23:49 <elliott> Nonsense. Of course you should stop following common practice because a random book told you to.
02:25:06 <elliott> "First of all, I'm not convinced that unexpected collisions
02:25:06 <elliott> are unconditionally bad. The way I look at it, you always
02:25:06 <elliott> learn something when you encounter a collision and you
02:25:06 <elliott> never learn anything when you don't."
02:27:00 <kmc> i read On Lisp
02:27:03 <kmc> it was pretty good
02:27:37 <kmc> LoL must be a parody on some level
02:27:41 <kmc> the introduction is... amazing
02:29:34 <kmc> when i got into the actual code some of it was interesting
02:29:50 <kmc> but none of it was transcendentally mind-blowing like the author seems to think it is
02:30:07 <kmc> clearly i'm not a true hacker
02:30:17 <elliott> TOP 0.00000001TH PERCENTILE
02:30:39 <elliott> (N.B. Lisp redefines "percentile" with magic.)
02:30:45 <kmc> Lisp programmers are smarter [citation: other lisp programmers saying they are smarter]
02:30:55 <kmc> reading _On Lisp_ I got the impression that PG was using macros where they weren't really necessary
02:31:05 <kmc> but it's an interesting book
02:31:20 <kmc> today some people tried to tell me that Ruby and Javascript are "pretty good Lisps"
02:31:25 <kmc> and I was just like... "no"
02:31:46 <elliott> kmc: that kind of sentiment originated with http://www.randomhacks.net/articles/2005/12/03/why-ruby-is-an-acceptable-lisp
02:31:52 <kmc> it's hard to sustain that claim without entirely missing the point of Lisp
02:32:09 <elliott> (which is a lot more reasonable than just claiming languages like that are "pretty good lisps" without qualification)
02:32:21 <kmc> i liked yegge's response to that
02:32:22 <kmc> http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/04/lisp-is-not-acceptable-lisp.html
02:32:41 <kmc> this was the article that made me appreciate "data is code" as well as "code is data"
02:33:03 <kmc> wait, not this one
02:33:25 <elliott> I'm surprised by how rarely I disagree with Yegge
02:33:40 <elliott> for such a controversial figure he rarely says anything super-controversial
02:34:02 <kmc> this one https://sites.google.com/site/steveyegge2/the-emacs-problem
02:34:45 <elliott> the article that convinced me that lisp is awesome was http://www.defmacro.org/ramblings/lisp.html
02:36:49 <kmc> statements like "Ruby gives you about 80% of what you want from macros" are full of blub
02:37:05 <kmc> if you don't use Lisp you don't want enough from macros ;)
02:37:21 <elliott> to a lisp programmer every statement showing something other than lisp in a positive light is full of blub
02:38:01 <kmc> it's possible to be smug and correct at the same time ;)
02:38:17 <elliott> programming language blub is when you're unknowingly limited in your thought processes by your choice of choice of language. lisp programmers don't suffer from that, they suffer from managing to get anything done blub
02:38:22 <elliott> caused by their choice of arrogance :p
02:38:44 <kmc> i don't actually think Ruby and Javascript would be better with Lisp-like macros
02:38:51 <Sgeo> There are some advantages to languages that have common idioms, I think. Sure, you could do XYZ-style programming in Lisp, but the Lisp community at large probably doesn't
02:38:58 <kmc> but without them you can't really call them "Lisp"
02:39:12 <elliott> "The old Google Groups will be going away soon. Switch to the new Google Groups."
02:39:22 <elliott> awesome! finally, google groups is getting even worse to use
02:39:32 <zzo38> Or don't use Google Groups at all.
02:39:43 <elliott> thank you for your helpful advice.
02:42:42 <zzo38> It is why, I was trying to invent a new kind of idea of programming language, with similarity to Haskell, but also with macros and so on. I can tell you my ideas and then you can tell me what you dislike about each one individually
02:43:19 <zzo38> * Kinds of macros usable in nearly every step of the parsing/compiler, including Lisp-like macro, C-like macro, TH-like macro, etc
02:43:19 <elliott> tell kmc, he'd love to hear
02:44:24 <zzo38> * No do-notation, no layout, no list/monad comprehensions, no Unicode syntax
02:45:00 <zzo38> * You are allowed to have extra commas at the beginning and end of a list and they can be removed
02:45:28 <zzo38> * Even types can have lambdas
02:45:55 <zzo38> * No case/of, instead you can have lambda with multiple patterns if they have { } around it then it is allow multiple patterns
02:46:12 <zzo38> * No if/then/else expression, you can use a bool function instead
02:47:54 <elliott> <zzo38> * Even types can have lambdas
02:48:00 <elliott> This makes typechecking undecidable.
02:48:11 <zzo38> * A type synonym can have constraints corresponding to things similar to classes, but instead of class declaration each one can be: a tag, a class method, a type family, a mathematical law, and so on
02:48:11 <elliott> And inference basically impossible.
02:48:11 <Sgeo> "So newcomers heave a deep sigh, and they learn to accept LISP-2, names like rplaca, case-insensitivity, '(ALL CAPS OUTPUT), and all the other zillions of idiosyncracies of a standard Common Lisp implementation."
02:48:18 <Sgeo> Who uses rplaca directly???
02:48:31 <zzo38> elliott: No, type lambdas would have the same restriction as type synonyms do
02:50:26 <zzo38> * You can declare that one thing implies another thing, such as classes and so on; and even after a class method is defined you can make up other ways to define it if you assert that things are equivalent by declaring mathematical laws that are assumed to hold
02:51:43 <zzo38> * You can have private instances
02:52:24 <zzo38> Sgeo: I don't know???
02:54:47 <zzo38> * Bulit-in kinds * # + ? -> & @ and then there are kinds {x} where x is a type and the types of those kind are {y} where y is a value of that type; only thing you can do with them is move the value inside the type into a value level expression
02:55:24 <zzo38> * Datakinds with capitalized names, declared like datatypes but kinds and can be declared in GADT-like, too; using the "kind" keyword instead of "data" at front
02:56:31 <zzo38> * Meanings of types [] and (,,) and values [] and (,,) and so on are determined using macros, so you can redefine those macros if you need to instead of being stuck with the stuff built-in
02:58:20 <zzo38> * Values in {} types use names in scope; if you have something in local scope then those types are also local in scope and cannot be moved elsewhere
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03:00:45 <zzo38> * The kind * of ordinary types. The kind # of raw low-level types (which can be defined using LLVM codes). The kind + of type-level natural numbers, a subkind of * and that number is how many values (the type 0 has no values). The kind ? having * # + as subkinds. The kind & of constraints. The kind @ of program modules.
03:01:06 <elliott> Are you going to implement this?
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03:01:32 <zzo38> elliott: I don't know. I just write idea, and then you can complain about each idea specifically, or say in case you like it instead if that is instead.
03:01:48 <elliott> Okay. I like all of it; you should work on implementing it.
03:02:01 <zzo38> elliott: I am not finished yet!
03:03:01 <kmc> wait, yegge thinks that PG announcing Arc has had a serious influence on the direction Lisp communities have taken since then?
03:04:22 <elliott> kmc: i think fair depending on how you define lisp communities
03:04:28 <elliott> common lisp/scheme communities no
03:04:40 <elliott> but almost every lisp derivative of the past many years has talked about onions
03:04:48 <elliott> and adopted a lot of the "heretical" stuff
03:05:11 <zzo38> * There is not a requirement for a common package service (like Hackage); you can use decentralized multiple package sources which can tell the difference, possibly some local. A package identifier might be like "something-package/0.1 example.org Z/" where first is name, then optional version number, optional domain name or domain alias, and optional selector prefix.
03:05:14 <Sgeo> Hmm, which stuff?
03:05:15 <elliott> e.g. http://arcanesentiment.blogspot.com/2008/04/orthodox-otter.html
03:06:01 <zzo38> * Port numbers are optional and there is no default. Domain alias can be defined locally and always have a dollar sign at front. The special name $ for active package.
03:06:52 <elliott> kmc: you're clearly not well-read enough on your pg! ;)
03:07:00 <elliott> http://www.paulgraham.com/arcll1.html
03:07:08 <zzo38> * Some kind of thing like CLC-INTERCAL's "BELONGS TO" relation.
03:07:50 <elliott> christ, arc is as old as 2001
03:07:59 <elliott> what a bloody disappointment
03:08:04 <zzo38> * Some (but not all) of errors that would cause error messages if the program is interpreted, cause undefined behavior in compiled programs. (Probably the compiler could have options to override that)
03:08:38 <Sgeo> zzo38, undefined behavior means that idiots will write code that works on one implementation but not another.
03:09:10 <elliott> You think idiots have any hope in programming in a language designed by zzo38 successfully?
03:09:18 <zzo38> Sgeo: In that case, idiots should use the interpreter or use some other programming language.
03:09:35 <zzo38> (Since the interpreter is required to not have undefined behavior)
03:11:32 <elliott> Sgeo: What W:A torrent did I use way back?
03:12:03 <Sgeo> I don't remember
03:12:12 <Sgeo> If you find it, let me know, I haven't played W:A in a while
03:12:25 <zzo38> * The "main" can be of type (IO ()) or (unsafe "c_int (c_int, c_char**)") to make a executable file; if main has any other type you can still create .dll or .so files but not standalone executable files.
03:12:38 <Sgeo> Because my ISO is stuck on an HD that I haven't touched in a while
03:13:16 <elliott> I think I'll try to find another, better one -- you know, one whose installer is not in Russian.
03:13:31 <zzo38> There. Is that good? Now will you complain about it differently, so that I can know exactly how to correct it? Even draft is not completely yet so we should try to argue about it together at first
03:14:38 <Sgeo> elliott, link me when you do >.>
03:14:57 <elliott> zzo38: It's great. You should implement it.
03:15:26 <Sgeo> Is read the conventional way to grab data from input? Because it seems unsafe.
03:15:26 <zzo38> Some things though, I still don't know all the details, including some of the syntax and a few others
03:17:41 <elliott> I've found a torrent that looks good.
03:18:30 <zzo38> Since I still don't know how a lot of these things can fit in to the syntax and fit in to a few other things
03:19:04 <Sgeo> elliott, I guess the clones aren't good enough?
03:21:33 <elliott> Oh, this torrent's name actually ends with "{russian}".
03:21:40 <elliott> Ehh, so what, it's well-seeded.
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03:22:12 <Sgeo> What if it's the same torrent?
03:22:15 <zzo38> * There is no "Int" type; you can use Int8, Int16, Int32, Int64, Int128, or Integer. And for unsigned you can use Nat8 (instead of Word8 as in Haskell), Nat16, Nat32, Nat64, Nat128, or Natural. (I don't yet know how to work with floating numbers)
03:22:23 <elliott> This one has an .mdf rather than an .iso.
03:23:28 <elliott> Sgeo: http://torrentz.eu/3379412f2660f0bf56b2b6bf1799ac786e4916ca; you can uncheck the patches. Remember to copy in torrentz's tracker list.
03:24:02 <zzo38> * Some way parts of a program can be written to function in other categories rather than only (->) category; possibly some can work in more than one category.
03:24:34 <zzo38> * Possibly, a Maybe monad can be renamed to a successor monad
03:25:37 <zzo38> * It is like everything has deriving Typeable, but you still need to specify the constraint if you want to be able to use typeOf on it, if you have a polymorphic type
03:27:34 <zzo38> * You can add to any class in either direction, so that you add something new it is a superclass, or add other class methods or other way of defining those class methods; instead of being stuck to the way it was defined at first like Haskell does
03:29:00 <elliott> God dammit, I want a space elevator.
03:29:30 <zzo38> * If you define a mathematical law and an instance that does not follow those laws but is asserted it does anyways, then it is undefined behavior (even in interpreter); but this kind of undefined behavior will not crash the computer
03:30:59 <zzo38> elliott: Sorry, Astrolog cannot compute coordinates (or date/time) relative to Moon (there is such things as moon date/time but Astrolog cannot use it)
03:33:43 <zzo38> * The runtime system compiled into the executable can be recompiled specifically for your program, to omit what you don't need and make it much smaller and faster instead of as large as Haskell programs compiled this GHC; however, this is an implementation detail and is not part of the specification of programming language, it is the appendix to recomendation
03:43:31 <elliott> Sgeo: How goes your download?
03:43:55 <Sgeo> I didn't start downloading
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04:03:30 <elliott> Woot, conversion didn't work first time
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04:10:06 <Sgeo> `welcome Infinikiller64
04:10:12 <HackEgo> Infinikiller64: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
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04:15:56 <elliott> aha, poweriso can convert it
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04:32:10 <elliott> Gah, not this error again.
04:32:53 -!- MDude has changed nick to MSleep.
04:33:59 <elliott> Well, this is frustrating.
04:34:11 <pikhq_> http://sourceware.org/git/?p=glibc.git;a=blob;f=libio/libioP.h;h=8b8ed9c390441879d3fc4b58c4cb2327f1c2927a;hb=HEAD THERE IS NO GOD
04:34:41 <Sgeo> http://example.com P IS NOT EQUAL TO NP
04:35:18 <pikhq_> Sgeo: glibc IO is C++ manually, naively ported to C.
04:35:30 <pikhq_> While retaining ABI compatibility.
04:35:35 <Sgeo> ...wait, what?
04:35:58 <pikhq_> So <iostream> can use glibc structures straight.
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04:37:15 <Sgeo> Infinikiller64, hmm
04:37:35 <Sgeo> Isn't there a BF CPU thing flying around somewhere?
04:38:01 <Sgeo> http://www.clifford.at/bfcpu/bfcpu.html
04:40:05 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck#Hardware_implementations
04:41:39 <Sgeo> Oh. But that wasn't clear that you meant "in Logisim" specifically, just thought the general idea of a BF CPU
04:44:30 <Sgeo> That reminds me, I've wanted to write.... something in Smallworlds to prove it TC
04:44:38 <Sgeo> Forgot exactly what I wanted to do.
04:44:44 <Sgeo> I need NAND and memory, right?
04:44:53 <Sgeo> How do I demo memory?
04:46:13 <Sgeo> So, no memory, so you
04:46:18 <Sgeo> you're not TC. Got it.
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05:02:20 <elliott_> [[nand`: oh, wait, ANSI is the physical layout]]
05:02:26 <elliott_> What a good quote! Thank you, HWN!
05:02:34 <pikhq_> 22:01 <@dalias> looks like we have working c++ support
05:02:38 <elliott_> @forget nand` oh, wait, ANSI is the physical layout
05:02:44 <lambdabot> No quotes match. And you call yourself a Rocket Scientist!
05:02:47 <lambdabot> xplat says: the underlying graph of a category is transitive. transitive graphs have no bridges. this is why trolls always have problems with category theory.
05:02:48 <lambdabot> xplat says: the underlying graph of a category is transitive. transitive graphs have no bridges. this is why trolls always have problems with category theory.
05:02:50 <lambdabot> No quotes match. Your mind just hasn't been the same since the electro-shock, has it?
05:02:54 <elliott_> hmm, looks like someone already did
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05:06:00 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
05:06:20 <lambdabot> http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/COMMANDS
05:06:54 -!- monqy has joined.
05:07:52 <lambdabot> SamB says: <SamB> @. bf . id . pl . v . wn yow <lambdabot> Done.
05:10:19 -!- augur has joined.
05:10:57 <oerjan> @. bf . id . pl . v . wn yow
05:11:37 <oerjan> ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZz
05:12:17 <Infinikiller64> im asleep right now acording to my mom, really im staying up to research brainfuck
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05:20:14 <Infinikiller64> @ping; if !(Return == "pong") {print("Error: Expected pong, got "Return)
05:20:58 <Infinikiller64> @ping; if !(Return == "pong") {print("Error: Expected pong, got "Return}
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05:27:10 <Infinikiller64> @ping because i dont want to be the last person to say something
05:32:54 <Infinikiller64> @ping because i dont want to be the last person to say something
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05:43:14 <coppro> new goal: turn depressive friend's self-doubt on itself, causing them to doubt their self-doubt.
05:48:39 <Jafet> Or good. But also god
05:49:55 <Sgeo> coppro, sounds a bit like one of my religious friend's statuses. "Believe your beliefs, and doubt your doubts."
05:50:00 <Sgeo> Which for obvious reasons makes me :/
06:07:27 <elliott_> "Please understand that this is not an actual embassy and we cannot provide assistance with visas, passports, travel questions, or immigration issues." -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Local_Embassy
06:37:56 <Sgeo> elliott_, ka tswett update
06:40:16 <monqy> elliott, cat sweat update
06:40:20 <monqy> just thought you should know
06:44:11 <elliott_> Sgeo: i note you have forgot to include monqy recently
06:44:25 <Sgeo> I believe monqy does not wish to be included.
06:44:48 <monqy> cat sweat does not interest me in the slightest
06:44:52 <Sgeo> I keep trying Ngevd and getting Nisstyr-e, so I have to delete it
06:45:09 <elliott_> i don't recall monqy saying that
06:45:31 <Sgeo> monqy, do you wish to be included in my update list?
06:45:41 <Sgeo> During those times that I get around to it
06:45:54 <monqy> on the condition I get to complain about it
06:46:01 <monqy> you can't take that from me
06:46:51 <Sgeo> Should I assume that complaints are not, in fact, requests to be taken off the list?
06:47:06 <Sgeo> I feel like I'm getting into Prime Intellect contract territory here.
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06:57:56 <kmc> QUANTUM-LANGUAGE-PARSE-SYNTAX-GRAMMAR is the Correct Language, as it is based on fact. There is no ambiguity with anything Quantum, it is purely Mathematical. Have you ever thought of Language being Mathematical?
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07:00:01 <Sgeo> http://davidwynnmiller.com/ this guy?
07:00:18 <elliott_> "IF YOU LEARN HOW TO SYNTAX YOUR CONTRACTS YOU WILL LEARN SELF SECURITY. PROTECT YOURSELF FROM BEING HARVESTED". By Judge: David-Wynn: Miller, 23rd June 2010
07:01:13 <elliott_> [[Eight years later in 1982 David appeared in court self represented for custody of his children. He lost 67 times, exasperated he said to the Judge “If I say white, you say black. If I say black, you say white. I can’t ever win!” the Judge replied “That is correct David, you can’t win in this court” David retorted “So this is all about Language and how it is interpreted” With a wry smile the Judge replies “That is right David,
07:01:13 <elliott_> has there ever been a war over a mathematical problem?” As the Judge stood to leave the room David responds “So if I could prove that Language had a mathematical interface, I would win?” the Judge turns around, faces David and says “You’re a smart man David, you’ll figure it out” and leaves.]]
07:01:19 <Sgeo> http://www.greetmewithcriesofhate.com/2011/01/who-is-jared-lee-loughner-part-three.html?zx=c800baf78aef8d4b
07:01:52 * Sgeo has no idea what this is
07:02:08 <elliott_> [[I have had the pleasure of touring with David in Australia, after a seminar, I asked him how he knows all the answers to the questions the audience ask, his reply was “It is as if a screen comes down in front of me with the answers. Let me explain, interesting things have happened to me over the last 35 years, for example no matter where I travel in the world this strange phenomenon occurs, I introduce myself as David, people shake my hand l
07:02:08 <elliott_> ook me straight in the eye and say pleased to meet you Steven, not every person I meet does this of course, however the amount of times this occurs is phenomenal” he shrugs his shoulders smiles and says “maybe it is Steven facilitating the seminars, maybe that’s how I know all the answers.”]]
07:03:00 <elliott_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VoXNhe7Z8A "i punctuate my name because it makes me a fact and not an adjective pronoun fiction"
07:03:53 <Sgeo> He actually speaks coherently?
07:03:58 * Sgeo is somewhat in shock
07:04:08 <elliott_> ~6 FOR THE NAME: "UNITED-STATES", IN A COURT-ROOM-DOCUMENT IS WITH THE NAME-MEANING-CLAIM OF THE TWO-OR-MORE-CONTRACT-STATES-(NO-CITIZEN-STATE-PERSON)CONTRACVT-STATES-CORPORATION-VESSEL(C.-S.-C.-V.) AS THE TWO OR MORE-PERSONS WITHIN A CONTRACT-CLOSURE BY A CLOSED-PAPER-COURT-AREA. [HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE 50-USA-STATES]FOR ALL FOREIGN-COURTS OF A FOREIGN-GLOBAL-AREA WITH THE 7.2-BILLION-FOREIGN-PARSE-SYNTAX-PEOPLE ARE WITH THE CLAIM AS THE SI
07:04:08 <elliott_> NGLE-VESSELS IN A DRYDOCK-BUILDING WITH A CONTRACT AS THE "BILLS OF THE LAIDING" WITH THE LOCAL-PORT-AUTHORITIES C.-S.-S.-C.-P.-S.-L. OF THAT AREA OR WITH THE FRUD & MISLEDING-STATEMENTS OF THE TITLE-~15: CONTRACT-STATES-CLAIMS SECTION-~1692-~e AND: TITLE-~18: U.-S.-C.-S.-~1001 OF THE FICTIONAL-LANGUAGE-CRIME BY AN AILING-PERSON POSING AS A FIDUCIARY.
07:08:03 <Sgeo> ....incorrect sentence structure lets criminals go free
07:08:11 * Sgeo is listening inattentiatively to the video
07:08:36 <pikhq_> Waascx geasfargle parse.
07:12:48 <Sgeo> There are more of these people!
07:12:53 <Sgeo> (In the video)
07:14:47 <Sgeo> "It's not some wild-eyed idea someone came up with overnight"
07:15:41 <pikhq_> It seems precisely like it is a wild-eyed idea someone came up with overnight.
07:18:12 <pikhq_> elliott_: What is wrong with people, and this person specifically?
07:18:34 <pikhq_> This is like, uh. (zzo38+crazy)!
07:18:47 <pikhq_> (zzo38 plus crazy, factorial)
07:19:18 <elliott_> pikhq_: It's called mental illness.
07:19:38 <pikhq_> WHY ARE THERE MULTIPLES
07:19:52 <pikhq_> Why does he have followers
07:25:40 <zzo38> How can you factorial that?
07:27:58 <pikhq_> zzo38: I don't know, but I know the outcome.
07:28:39 <pikhq_> And that is JUDGE :David-Wynn: Miller
07:28:54 <Sgeo> :JUDGE: David-Wynn Miller
07:29:25 <Sgeo> pikhq_, the video has it punctuated differently from the website
07:32:08 <elliott_> It seems to be punctuated differently all the time.
07:32:15 <elliott_> Presumably it enhances factuality.
07:32:33 <quintopia> zzo38: (zzo38+crazy)*(zzo38+crazy-1)*(zzo38+crazy-2)*...*3*2*1
07:33:52 <Jafet> Use the crazy continuation of Γ()
07:33:59 <Sgeo> *1*1*1*1*1*1*1
07:34:55 <ion> Huh. This font adds a weird serif to gamma.
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07:43:01 <fizzie> Sgeo: Aces High, I think.
07:43:20 <fizzie> It's told about the Iron Maiden guy, so I think it refers to their song with that name.
07:43:32 <Sgeo> Thought it referred to cards
07:43:45 <Sgeo> Whether to treat Aces as above Kings or below Twos
07:44:40 <fizzie> Yes, well, I think "aces high" works equally well for card.
07:45:28 <fizzie> "Ei siis hai" is approximately "so, not a shark".
07:45:29 <ion> Shark: hai
07:45:54 <elliott_> fizzie: google says "so does a shark" and i like that one better
07:46:05 <fizzie> You may, but it's not the right.
07:46:30 <fizzie> It's not the only joke. There's also "airo on meidän".
07:47:00 <fizzie> See: http://www.apeteam.com/?sivu=KoutsisCornerShow&koutsiID=50
07:47:11 <fizzie> I'm sure it translates well.
07:49:27 <fizzie> Pretty much all of them are just "ei siis [a word that starts with 'hai']".
07:49:55 <fizzie> Calling them jokes is perhaps a bit of an exaggeration.
07:54:06 <olsner> google translate had trouble with kalastusaikein
07:54:43 <fizzie> "With plans to go fishing" in that context, more or less.
07:55:15 <olsner> he came to the beach fishing-plans-having?
07:55:31 <fizzie> Or maybe more "intending to go fishing".
07:56:02 <fizzie> I just didn't recall the word "intent" in time.
07:56:45 <fizzie> monqy: Best jokes ever this time.
07:57:07 <fizzie> There's a proverb about the prodigal shark, isn't there?
07:57:40 <fizzie> Or maybe it's one of those... parabolas instead.
07:58:29 <fizzie> "No results found for "parabola of the prodigal shark"."
07:58:59 <olsner> they should spell it with aces high on that page
08:02:09 <olsner> Iron Maiden söner hittades i fisk. o.O I might as well learn finnish instead of using translate
08:02:10 <Sgeo> David-Wynn Miller apparently came back from the dead.
08:02:42 <Sgeo> http://davidwynnmiller.com/about.html
08:02:49 <fizzie> "Iron Maiden's sons found in fish."
08:02:52 <Sgeo> I'm only noticing that page now :/
08:03:11 <elliott_> It's possible to get free HTTPS certificates that don't cause annoying bleepy warnings in browsers nowadays, right?
08:03:22 <elliott_> For when you just want the encr[yyyy]pti^on of a sh:ark:.
08:03:26 <olsner> fizzie: they found *a* fish, I hope?
08:03:32 <Sgeo> Ooh, there's a fixed date
08:03:42 <Sgeo> 6th April 2012
08:03:43 <elliott_> Just in the abstract concept of fish.
08:03:51 <olsner> elliott_: I find you in fish
08:04:03 <elliott_> I bet fizzie knows the answer to my question.
08:04:11 <olsner> you are in fish, your argument is irrelevant
08:04:20 <fizzie> olsner: It's using "pojat" (sons, boys) in the sense of "the Iron Maiden guys", not referring to their offspring. And "going into a fish" -- what it literally says on the page -- is an expression for "going fishing".
08:04:53 <fizzie> I don't know about finding.
08:04:58 <Sgeo> I'm looking at this stuff myself, instead of on IRC
08:05:02 <Sgeo> It reminds me a bit of Cyc
08:05:55 <fizzie> olsner: Oh, I see, it was the later line. Yes, translated literally it's "the sons of Iron Maiden were in a fish". It's just that it's an expression for fishing again.
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08:07:18 <Sgeo> http://davidwynnmiller.com/about.html
08:07:23 <Sgeo> Miller remarked that the genesis of Truth-language was when he "turned Hawaii into a verb" and showed "how a preposition is needed to certify a noun."[
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08:07:33 <elliott_> http://www.cacert.org/ -- ah, it's this thing, is it not?
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08:07:36 * Sgeo hawaiis elliott_
08:07:37 <elliott_> Sgeo: turned hawaii into a verb :D
08:07:49 <elliott_> "Oops. Guys. Guys, I think I just turned Hawaii into a verb."
08:07:55 <elliott_> "People lived there, you know."
08:07:58 <monqy> sgeo how do you know it is transitive
08:08:03 <elliott_> "Yes. They've been hawaiied now."
08:08:28 <fizzie> "Up rose the shoe. "Look at the boys. Nokia kind! ". Steve replied, "Yes. That's a Bear's jogging shoe. " "Share. There is therefore a shark-boot. " Bruce remarked with disappointment."
08:08:34 <fizzie> I like these jokes more in your language.
08:09:01 <monqy> misread jogging as juggling
08:09:06 <monqy> a bear's juggling shoe
08:09:38 <olsner> fizzie: is "share" mistranslated there?
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08:10:34 <Sgeo> I don't get how this stuff catches on
08:10:53 <olsner> Steve sit låg såg och sade Bruce pojulle på "hör ingen MPLIANCEWITH oo Mika hai, det är en mört "
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08:11:29 <fizzie> olsner: Yes. In the source text it's "jaa" as in a mostly meaningless "oh"-type word, not "jaa" as in the second-person singular imperative form of the verb "jakaa", to share.
08:11:31 <Sgeo> According to Miller's teaching, the addition of hyphens and colons to one's name turns one from an ordinary, taxable human into a non-taxable “prepositional phrase.”
08:11:33 <elliott_> Oh, the root certititititititititittificate of CACert is not in the OSeseseseseses, says a thing.
08:11:35 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Wynn_Miller
08:11:37 <elliott_> Will that cause the big red flashing screen?
08:11:49 <elliott_> Sgeo: Reminds me of the Freeman stuff.
08:12:10 <elliott_> Where your UPPERCASE LEGAL NAME is what goes through all the legal stuff, and it's just a proxy for the real you, which you just have to insist be referred to as a first name.
08:12:17 <elliott_> And then you don't have to do anything so long as you don't hurt anyone else.
08:12:53 <elliott_> "Veronica: of the Chapman family" is an... interesting rendition of a name.
08:14:04 <olsner> "Iron Maiden were the sons of a world tour."
08:14:38 <Sgeo> elliott_, suppose these people think they're right, evade taxes or whatever, and are arrested.
08:14:39 <fizzie> olsner: I have zero idea where it gets the "MPLIANCEWITH" from.
08:14:47 <fizzie> olsner: It's also in the Finnish-to-English translation.
08:14:49 <Sgeo> What do they conclude? That their arrest was unlawful?
08:15:03 <Sgeo> Because this is promising freedom from arrests, I think.
08:15:16 <Sgeo> Not "if they arrest you, they're the ones breaking the law, know this in your heart"
08:15:56 <elliott_> Sgeo: They're delusional; of course they'll make up a perfectly convincing explanation for themselves.
08:16:03 <elliott_> Or realise it was bunk; there isn't really a third option.
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08:16:31 <elliott_> http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Freeman_on_the_land has lots of words, if you're willing to brave the RW stench.
08:17:25 <elliott_> Oh, and IIRC there's actually a subreddit with those freeman cranks.
08:17:45 <elliott_> Yes, /r/CommonLaw I think http://www.reddit.com/r/CommonLaw/comments/7erku/introduction_overview_to_the_common_law_subreddit/
08:18:11 <pikhq_> Strange, considering common law precedent estabilishes they're fucked.
08:18:34 <fizzie> "Iron Maiden boys were fucking groupies backstage. Bruce asked, the girl to see if could also poke to second place. She vigorously denied. "Share. There is thus an accordion. " Bruce remarked with disappointment."
08:18:55 <elliott_> fizzie: I think they are better without the jokes.
08:19:37 <elliott_> "The DECEPTION of: INCLUDE(S) used by TV LICENSING oop's sorry! CONSIGNIA (CUSTOMER MANAGEMENT) LTD also Traded as TV LICENSING"
08:19:49 <elliott_> http://www.tpuc.org/node/609 beautiful
08:20:24 <elliott_> Sgeo: "This is then followed by what is known as a "fee schedule" or "penalty schedules", listing a series of acts and associated penalties the freeman will attempt to levy against the government for perceived transgressions. e.g., if the state incarcerates a freeman against their will then will attempt to charge the state a fee for this action."
08:20:30 <elliott_> See, they won't imprison you, because they'd have to pay you money.
08:20:53 <Sgeo> elliott_, monqy tswett UPDATE
08:21:05 <pikhq_> Also, curiously, in several jurisdictions David's legal name might well be JUDGE :David-Wynn: Miller.
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08:21:30 <pikhq_> (use suffices to estabilish naming in several common-law jurisdictions)
08:21:43 <ion> There should be a place for bad jokes that don’t translate into English translated into English.
08:21:51 <fizzie> I have understood there's quite a lot of people who have all kinds of different crazy reasons for why they don't need to pay taxes.
08:22:31 <olsner> ion: maybe that place is finland
08:22:39 <fizzie> "UNDERSTAND is synonymous with STAND-UNDER; this is how they gain AUTHORITY over you."
08:22:55 <fizzie> Oh no! I think I'll fight that by never understanding anything.
08:23:21 <elliott_> You're well on your way, speech recognition researcher.
08:23:25 <elliott_> They never understand anything.
08:23:25 <olsner> reach the top and everyone will understand you
08:23:28 <elliott_> That's why they do speech recognition.
08:23:29 <pikhq_> fizzie: Ironically, most of them probably make enough that they have effective 0% income tax rates.
08:23:51 <fizzie> elliott_: GAH. I had like an 80%-done "pre-emptive joke" about that.
08:24:57 <elliott_> It's not surprising you're late. Have you noticed how those speech recognition programs take so long to understand you that you have to keep stopping talking to let it catch up?
08:25:02 <elliott_> Probably because it's useless.
08:25:14 <fizzie> I think I'll go sob some lunch. I mean, eat.
08:25:32 <elliott_> "Freemen see a distinction between what they call common law and statute law, which they refer to as admiralty law or "law of the sea", sometimes also known as maritime law or the "universal commercial code" (a distortion of the US-only Uniform Commercial Code). Through a stunning misunderstanding of etymology, they see admiralty law as being the law of commerce, the law of ownership, citizenship, and indeed anything else ending in "-ship". They
08:25:32 <elliott_> see evidence of this in various nautical-sounding terms used in court, such as "dock", "birth (berth) certificate", "-ship" suffixes and any other fancy word they think might have a vaguely naval sound."
08:25:46 <elliott_> fizzie: Cry into the email and so on.
08:26:47 <elliott_> "Freemen will try to claim common law (rather than admiralty law) jurisdiction by asking "do you have a claim against me?", which supposedly removes their consent to be governed by admiralty law and turns the court into a common law court, forcing the court to proceed according to their version of common law. (This has never worked.)"
08:27:20 <elliott_> "When judges leave the courtroom, Freemen will attempt to claim common law authority and then attempt to dismiss the charges themselves, often with a cry of "ship abandoned" or "man overboard".[12][13]"
08:28:21 <Sgeo> Wouldn't they person literally need to be over a board, by the style of logic they use?
08:28:40 <pikhq_> This makes krokodil users look sane. And krokodil is a drug with *necrosis* as a side effect.
08:28:41 <Sgeo> Also consider that, a ship can't be literally abandoned unless there's no one on it.
08:29:18 <pikhq_> Sgeo: Ah, bout MAN-OVER-A-BOARD would be a prepositional phrase and thus have no legal authority.
08:30:09 <elliott_> Sgeo: The "man" in this case is the charge, I think.
08:30:21 <elliott_> So it's overboard and thus no longer understood (relative to the person saying it).
08:30:25 <elliott_> The board being the floorboards.
08:31:16 <elliott_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXv1a7yiN0w
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08:32:51 <elliott_> "have you got the birth certificate" oh my god
08:33:13 <fizzie> "I feel 'guilty', because I owe the money". No, you don't owe a damn thing! When taking out the loan, you were 'loaned' back what was yours in the first place. You created the 'money' when you signed the Loan or Credit Application. By doing so, YOU gave THEM a Negotiable Instrument called 'the money'. They cashed this in(*), and then used that to loan you back your own money. You don't owe a damn thing! THEY owe YOU - an apology at the very least - ...
08:33:13 <elliott_> "This is Mr Stephen Barry, A Birth Certificate"
08:33:19 <fizzie> ... for applying this confidence trick on you - AND FOR CHASING YOU FOR SOMETHING YOU ALREADY GAVE THEM.
08:34:18 <fizzie> So if you're out of money, just go to a bank and create some by applying for a loan.
08:34:27 <fizzie> It doesn't need to be paid back, since you created it.
08:34:34 <pikhq_> elliott_: I think the only proper response to that is "We find against this idiot for being an idiot."
08:34:38 <olsner> true in a sense, much "money" does get created by debts
08:35:47 <pikhq_> Probably not legal, but highly tempting.
08:35:54 <pikhq_> And has saner legal theory in favor of it.
08:42:54 <elliott_> what a crock of shit that video is
08:43:22 <elliott_> "and a charlie sheen win for free man .
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09:04:03 <shachaf> elliott_: Did you see that other GHC issue they found in #haskell the other day, by the way?
09:05:06 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello).
09:06:54 <fizzie> "Mika Rasila gets stopped by the police for not having a licence plate. He tells them that he doesn't consent to their laws and that he isn't an employee of the "corporation of Canada". It doesn't work and they arrest him and impound his van. A judge later gives him a fine of $1,250."
09:07:00 <fizzie> Based on the name I'd guess this winner is likely to have Finnish connections.
09:07:44 <elliott_> Guess those FINS SUNK HA HA HA HA HA AH AH AH AH AH AKLAKL AH AH SFDJKLSD SGNKSDFOGMK SERK SEROGK SG; SERPKGM SER'GK SEGK ER'K SER\L ETL ER][TL ]\ET ]\W;R WER ][WE;R WE;R WER][ W ;WER W]\R ][WE;R WE; ;WER R; WE[\R WER ][E WE][R; W][E;R E][;R WERR]\ ;WER; WER][ ;]\WER; RWE[R WER ]\WE;RWER;WE\ W;R][ ;WER]\ ;WER WER
09:07:49 <elliott_> WER; ]WE[R; ][WE;R\ ]WE;R ]\WE;RWER ]\W;R ]\WE;RER]\ W;ER WEREWR WER ]\R ;WE][R; ]\WER; ]\[R; ]W\ER; ]\WER; []WER
09:07:54 <elliott_> WER; ]'\WER; ]\WE;R WER WER; ]\ER; ][WER; ]\WER; ][WER; ]WER ]\WE;R ]\;WE; R]\ R][WE R\[WER ][;E RW\E RWE[\R; \WE;R ]\WER WE R
09:08:20 <shachaf> elliott_: :set -XImpredicativeTypes
09:08:32 <shachaf> let xs :: [forall a. a -> a]; xs = id
09:09:00 <elliott_> GHCi is too hard at 9 am in the mronign.
09:09:06 <shachaf> What, you want me to paste in the type error?
09:09:55 <shachaf> I'll only paste it in... Channels that have a less strict pasting policy.
09:10:31 <elliott_> there are no channels with a less strict pasting policy than here
09:10:48 <elliott_> To configure an HTTPS server you must enable the SSL protocol in the server block, and specify the locations of the server certificate and private key files:
09:10:49 <elliott_> ssl_certificate www.nginx.com.crt;
09:10:51 <elliott_> ssl_certificate_key www.nginx.com.key;
09:10:53 <elliott_> ssl_protocols SSLv3 TLSv1 TLSv1.1 TLSv1.2;
09:11:01 <elliott_> The server certificate is a public entity. It is sent to every client that connects to the server. The private key is a secure entity and should be stored in a file with restricted access, however, it must be readable by nginx’s master process. The private key may alternately be stored in the same file as the certificate:
09:11:05 <elliott_> ssl_certificate www.nginx.com.cert;
09:11:07 <elliott_> ssl_certificate_key www.nginx.com.cert;
09:11:09 <elliott_> in which case the file access rights should also be restricted. Although the certificate and the key are stored in one file, only the certificate is sent to a client.
09:11:12 <elliott_> The directives ssl_protocols and ssl_ciphers can be used to limit connections to include only the strong versions and ciphers of SSL/TLS. Since version 1.0.5, nginx uses “ssl_protocols SSLv3 TLSv1” and “ssl_ciphers HIGH:!aNULL:!MD5” by default, so configuring them explicitly only makes sense for the earlier nginx versions. Since versions 1.1.13 and 1.0.12, nginx uses “ssl_protocols SSLv3 TLSv1 TLSv1.1 TLSv1.2” by default.
09:11:14 <Sgeo> You're following :JUDGE: now?
09:11:29 <elliott_> shachaf: dcan you apste me the sytnaxtwe eroer
09:13:13 <shachaf> I'll talk to you when you're less $WHATEVER.
09:13:34 <elliott_> wanting to see an error message
09:13:41 <elliott_> & crying in a sadness that this is not yet presently happening & cry
09:14:28 <elliott_> shachaf: can you get me a decent copy of worms armageddon that works on machines without optical drive. thank
09:14:52 <Sgeo> elliott_, you can't mount using loopback?
09:15:13 <elliott_> Sgeo: i did all "the shits" as they say but after a long process it's just access violation'ing
09:15:20 <elliott_> apparently the pirated copies are "the buggy"
09:15:25 <elliott_> mostly i just can't find anyone else with this problem
09:15:30 <elliott_> and there are quite a few Wine users
09:15:35 <elliott_> so i presume it's a problem with this iso
09:18:08 <shachaf> elliott_: ERROR: NO ERROR MESSAGE FOUND
09:19:04 <elliott_> ok this is a good ``torrential reain''
09:19:10 <elliott_> perhaps itw ill 1``enfix the probelem''
09:36:40 <elliott_> Hmph. Other ISo gets same error.
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09:54:09 <ais523> spammer got past the CAPTCHA
09:54:13 <ais523> could you check to make sure it's a human?
09:54:25 <ais523> (I indef-blocked the account, auto-blocked the IP, deleted the page and blacklisted the domain)
09:55:00 <elliott_> hmm, doesn't auto-block happen automatically?
09:55:47 <ais523> I just mean I didn't turn it off
09:56:05 <elliott_> wow, all IPv4 IPs are prefixed by ::ffff: in the logs ever since I enabled IPv6
09:56:42 <elliott_> ais523: looks human to me, except this one is using something that looks like IE7, rather than IE8
09:56:43 <elliott_> compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; Trident/4.0; SLCC2; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.5.30729; .NET CLR 3.0.30729; Media Center PC 6.0; In
09:56:43 <elliott_> foPath.2; AskTbHIP/5.13.1.18107; .NET4.0C; .NET4.0E
09:56:56 <ais523> the IP traces to a large Indian ISP
09:57:06 <elliott_> ::ffff:122.170.55.182 - - [01/Mar/2012:09:42:28 +0000] "GET /wiki/User:Udoylehinesf HTTP/1.1" 404 5441 "http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Special:UserLogin&returnto
09:57:06 <elliott_> =User%3AUdoylehinesf" "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; Trident/4.0; SLCC2; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.5.30729; .NET CLR 3.0.30729; Media C
09:57:06 <elliott_> enter PC 6.0; InfoPath.2; AskTbHIP/5.13.1.18107; .NET4.0C; .NET4.0E)"
09:57:14 <elliott_> hmm, so they tried to register another user first and failed, or something
09:58:03 <elliott_> they didn't seem to load any captcha page, although the log format is too annoying for me to tell for sure
09:58:16 <elliott_> i'm not too worried about the level of spam so far
09:58:27 <elliott_> ais523: btw, do you know how I could make "Prevent user from sending e-mail" the default?
09:58:39 <elliott_> there's no real reason for spammers to be able to email people, but only your block has it set so far because i'm lazy :p
09:58:53 <ais523> I don't know, although it wouldn't surprise me i there was a config setting somewhere
10:11:07 <fizzie> elliott_: echo 1 > /proc/sys/net/ipv6/bindv6only + nginx "listen [::]:80 ipv6only=on; listen 80;" but maybe it's not really worth it. (Alternatively, having just a list of explicit v4 and v6 listen directives would also do it.)
10:12:32 <elliott_> fizzie: Hmm-hmm, explicit howso?
10:13:00 <elliott_> "When you enable the address [::]:80, binding port 80 using IPv6, in the listen directive, in Linux, by default, the IPv4 port 80 is also enabled. Meaning that nginx listens for both IPv4 and IPv6 incoming traffic. Therefore if you erroneously specify also a IPv4 address you'll get an already bind address error when reloading nginx configuration.
10:13:00 <elliott_> In Linux the separation of the IPv6 and IPv4 stacks is controlled through the runtime parameter: net.ipv6.bindv6only which has the value 0 by default.
10:13:00 <elliott_> If you want to use separate sockets for IPv4 and IPv6 you should set this parameter to 1 using sysctl."
10:13:10 <elliott_> Surely there must be some easier way.
10:13:21 <fizzie> Explicit as in, "listen 178.79.159.81:80; listen [2a01:...]:80; listen 127.0.0.1:80; listen [::1]:80;"
10:14:47 <elliott_> fizzie: That goes in sysctl.conf, right?
10:14:50 <elliott_> As in, net.ipv6.bindv6only = 1.
10:14:57 <fizzie> It's doable there, yes.
10:15:10 <fizzie> I couldn't quote figure out from the docs if the 'ipv6only=on" option alone would be enough.
10:15:43 <fizzie> Well, I mean, you can echo 1 to the /proc version from anywhere. But sysctl.conf (or sysctl.d) are probably cleaner.
10:15:57 <elliott_> Yes, I can echo it there but it won't persist.
10:16:26 <fizzie> Anyway, it's (IIRC) possible for an application to say "I don't want this V6 wildcard socket to listen to v4", so if ipv6only=on does that, maybe just having those two listen's would do it.
10:16:39 <fizzie> Though the documentation did seem to slightly suggest that the sysctl is also necessary.
10:16:43 <elliott_> nginx: [emerg] invalid parameter "ipv6only=1" in /etc/nginx/sites-enabled/esolangs.org:4
10:16:55 <elliott_> You have ~1 second to come up with a decent fix before I revert this to fix the downtime :P
10:17:00 <fizzie> It's "on" in the docs.
10:17:05 <fizzie> I don't know if 1 is the same thing.
10:17:26 <elliott_> nginx: [emerg] duplicate listen options for [::]:80 in /etc/nginx/sites-enabled/esolangs.org:12
10:17:43 <elliott_> Perhaps something's breaking because I also have the default server
10:25:07 <fizzie> elliott_: According to http://serverfault.com/questions/277653/nginx-name-based-virtual-hosts-on-ipv6 (the bit after "Edited to add:") the dude seems to have the "ipv6only=on" only in the first listen directives, and then just the plain "listen [::]:80; listen 80;" in the vhosts. If you want to fiddle.
10:26:08 <fizzie> (Apparently you only put the extra options in one of them.)
10:27:19 <elliott_> I think I will hold off until anyone can actually access the site via IPv6.
10:28:52 <elliott_> http://www.worldipv6launch.org/ -- I have until June.
10:29:21 <elliott_> Like one of them Finnish jokes.
10:29:48 <fizzie> They seem to have the top 4 Alexa-ranked websites as participants. (Then there's a bit of a gap, since Bing is just the 26th.)
10:30:56 <fizzie> No ISPs in Finland, and just 5 crummy websites. :/
10:31:06 <elliott_> Also Cisco, which impresses me quitely, because it means they'll turn IPv6 on by default on all their new routers, according to their page.
10:31:19 <elliott_> That seems like the kind of thing that could be doing a lot of breaky.
10:32:00 <fizzie> Maybe they're hoping the networks people connect to won't have it apparently-enabled until it actually works.
10:32:17 <elliott_> Internet engineers still have hope?
10:34:54 <fizzie> Well, that, or maybe they just don't care any more. It's not their customer service department that will be fielding the calls, after all.
10:40:02 <elliott_> fizzie: Don't you feel a bit less Finnish without native IPv6 now?
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10:49:57 <fizzie> http://www.vyncke.org/ipv6status/detailed.php?country=fi we are full of fail. :/
10:51:40 <elliott_> http://www.vyncke.org/ipv6status/detailed.php?type=&country=uk Excuse me, we fail more.
10:51:50 <elliott_> http://www.vyncke.org/ipv6status/detailed.php?type=&country=ae HA.
10:52:03 <elliott_> http://www.vyncke.org/ipv6status/detailed.php?type=&country=sj 101% of Svalbard's websites at IPv6-enabled.
10:52:20 <elliott_> http://www.vyncke.org/ipv6status/detailed.php?type=&country=kp YOU CANNOT HAVE DEMOCRACY BEFORE IPV6.
10:54:00 <elliott_> BAZOOM. Our Main Page just changed.
10:54:04 <elliott_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page DRASTICALLY.
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10:56:43 <elliott_> fizzie: Do you SEE the DIFFERENCE?
10:56:57 <fizzie> Only after looking at "view history".
10:57:10 <fizzie> Also I like how clearly you can see the last year's IPv6 day in http://www.vyncke.org/ipv6status/worldwide-W-legacy.png
10:58:15 <elliott_> tswett: do you want [[surprised look]] deleted
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11:05:32 <ais523> yay, I actually managed to ping myself before the connection dropped this time :)
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11:10:29 <Sgeo> Did we ever get a spec for :o
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12:26:13 <elliott_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unparliamentary_language#Canada
12:27:01 <elliott_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unparliamentary_language#Canada
12:27:06 <elliott_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unparliamentary_language#New_Zealand
12:39:00 <ais523> In December 2009, Paul Gogarty apologised in advance for using "unparliamentary language" prior to shouting "fuck you!" at an opposition chief whip.[7] This phrase was not one of those listed explicitly as inappropriate, prompting calls for a review.[9]
12:39:29 <ais523> so was the review about whether "fuck you!" is inappropriate, or about whether it's correct to apologise for using phrases not on the inappropriate phrases list?
12:40:03 <elliott_> how dare you insinuate "fuck you" is unparliamentary language :)
12:40:59 <elliott_> http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/politics/history-of-parliament/bad-language
12:41:51 <elliott_> "Wikispecies is free, because life is in the public domain!"
12:41:51 <elliott_> "Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution/Share-Alike License; additional terms may apply. See Terms of use for details."
12:41:56 <fizzie> "I would cut the Honourable gentleman's throat if I had the chance"
12:42:55 <elliott_> "His brains could revolve inside a peanut shell for a thousand years without touching the sides"
12:43:10 <elliott_> You'd think you'd only need a year or two to establish the size.
12:43:19 <fizzie> The quality of the insults certainly has gone down lately.
12:43:46 <elliott_> I like how "Ayatollah" is apparently unparliamentary language.
12:43:55 <elliott_> That must make some discussions rather difficult.
12:44:29 <elliott_> ais523: hey, when do you think we should take down the sitenotice?
12:44:41 <ais523> Vorpal's seen it now, so so has everyone else
12:44:42 <elliott_> I was thinking either now or in 5 days or so when a fortnight has passed
12:44:44 <ais523> so may as well take it down
12:44:52 <elliott_> haha, how do you know Vorpal's seen it?
12:44:58 <ais523> his reaction in channel was hilarious
12:45:05 <ais523> I think it was yesterday or the day before
12:45:18 <ion> That sounds dirty.
12:45:36 <elliott_> 12:23:57: <Vorpal> I'm just worried that it will suddenly go down. Previously ehird's server haven't been the most stable in the long term.
12:45:48 <elliott_> Er, wasn't I clear that this was a secret plan to destroy the esolang world forever?
12:45:58 <elliott_> Anyway, too many people would yell at me if it goes down now.
12:46:10 <elliott_> 12:23:57: <fizzie> Clarity in Expression 2012 campaign message again: esolangs.org is pointing at elliott's thing, he doesn't "own" the domain, which is what a reasonable person would assume you're referring to if you just say it like that.
12:46:28 <elliott_> You can blame THE ALAN DIPERT's continued ownership of that domain for the lack of IPv6 and general GoDaddyosity. :'(
12:46:42 * Jafet points at elliott's thing.
12:46:43 <ais523> elliott_: even if you were clear, I don't think Vorpal would believe you
12:46:53 <ais523> or at least, even if he did, he'd pretend not to for humour value
12:46:56 <elliott_> ais523: That was rather below my threshold for hilarious. :(
12:47:07 <ais523> I thought the discussion about a coup was funny
12:47:11 <elliott_> Not enough apologies! I need some grovelling.
12:47:13 <ais523> or just the first couple of lines
12:47:16 <elliott_> Okay, it was at least moderately amusing.
12:47:21 <ais523> new Mediawiki, hmm and elliott's behind it?
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12:48:22 <elliott_> Also prgmr want more money from me but so do Linode. :(
12:48:33 <elliott_> And I don't want to cancel the prgmr before I can get out my other laptop which has the SSH key I need to back up the files on there.
12:48:47 <elliott_> But I also don't want to pay an extra $20, so I'm just going to not pay prgmr and hope they don't notice before I stop being lazy.
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12:50:00 <ais523> hmm, so it seems that Visual C++ version 11 doesn't support Windows XP in the binaries it produces
12:50:14 <elliott_> wow, you can protect deleted pages on wikipedia
12:50:23 <elliott_> ais523: presumably just "by default"
12:50:26 <ais523> yep, that's been around for a while
12:50:42 <ais523> elliott_: it doesn't ship with a libc that runs on windows XP
12:50:49 <ais523> so you'd need to find one from somewhere
12:51:00 <elliott_> meh, that doesn't sound difficult
12:51:19 <ais523> (the libc gets statically linked on Windows, usually, it seems)
12:51:50 <elliott_> XP is getting a bit long in the tooth, anyway.
12:52:06 <elliott_> It's not supported any more, so no big surprise that Microsoft don't care if their new products work with it.
12:52:40 <ais523> what does SFINAE mean? trying to read about C++ is tricky because of all the acronyms
12:52:50 <ais523> (I can ask this safely as I don't pretend to understand more than a smallish subset of C++)
12:52:58 <elliott_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substitution_failure_is_not_an_error
12:53:14 <elliott_> answered in 2 seconds with the help of google, inc. :P
12:53:19 <ais523> I'm a little surprised it's major enough to have a Wikipedia article about it…
12:53:26 <elliott_> acutally, [[SFINAE]] even redirects there
12:54:41 <ais523> I'd have tried Wikipedia first if I expected the article to exist
12:54:52 <ais523> and wow, the concept itself is beautifully ridiculous :)
12:55:06 <elliott_> MW 1.19 should hurry up and come out so I can put it on Esolang.
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12:56:14 <ais523> what does 1.19 have that you want?
12:59:34 <elliott_> ""Massive Multiauthor Collaboration Site" (or "MMC Site") means any World Wide Web server that publishes copyrightable works and also provides prominent facilities for anybody to edit those works."
12:59:48 <elliott_> ais523: conjecture: Wikipedia's relicensing to CC failed, because not everybody could edit Wikipedia at the time
13:00:13 <ais523> I don't see why that would be relevant
13:00:26 <ais523> I believe they could relicense the content without anyone's permission but the FSF if they really wanted to
13:00:32 <ais523> but they decided to seek permission anyway
13:00:34 <elliott_> "Massive Multiauthor Collaboration Site" (or "MMC Site") means any World Wide Web server that publishes copyrightable works and also provides prominent facilities for anybody to edit those works. A public wiki that anybody can edit is an example of such a server. A "Massive Multiauthor Collaboration" (or "MMC") contained in the site means any set of copyrightable works thus published on the MMC site.
13:00:34 <elliott_> "CC-BY-SA" means the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 license published by Creative Commons Corporation, a not-for-profit corporation with a principal place of business in San Francisco, California, as well as future copyleft versions of that license published by that same organization.
13:00:35 <elliott_> "Incorporate" means to publish or republish a Document, in whole or in part, as part of another Document.
13:00:38 <elliott_> An MMC is "eligible for relicensing" if it is licensed under this License, and if all works that were first published under this License somewhere other than this MMC, and subsequently incorporated in whole or in part into the MMC, (1) had no cover texts or invariant sections, and (2) were thus incorporated prior to November 1, 2008.
13:00:41 <elliott_> The operator of an MMC Site may republish an MMC contained in the site under CC-BY-SA on the same site at any time before August 1, 2009, provided the MMC is eligible for relicensing.
13:00:46 <elliott_> that's the FDL text that allowed it to go through
13:00:54 <elliott_> I'm arguing it's inapplicable to Wikipedia on a technicality
13:01:06 <ais523> technicalities don't apply in legal documents, though
13:01:07 <fizzie> Massive Multiplayer Online Collaboration Game, a MMOCG.
13:01:19 <elliott_> pah, "anybody" seems pretty clear to me
13:01:33 <ais523> I also like the definition of "incorporate", there
13:01:39 <elliott_> happy mailman mailing list reminders day
13:01:40 <ais523> because it's so different from the normal legal meaning
13:01:54 <ais523> elliott_: I think I got my reminders before you did
13:02:01 <ais523> and I already happy-thatted yesterday for the Australian version
13:02:31 * ais523 notes that it's possible to verb even relative pronouns
13:02:38 <elliott_> I probably just checked my email later than you did
13:03:31 <ais523> oh, you check email actively?
13:03:46 <ais523> I just leave Evolution backgrounded and look at it when the new-messages popup comes up
13:03:52 <ais523> that's what I meant by actively
13:03:58 <ais523> you make a decision to check it
13:04:04 <ais523> rather than checking it in the background, so to speak
13:04:17 <elliott_> it's easier to open a tab and type the first few letters of "gmail" than it is to install a notifier :P
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13:05:25 <ais523> err, what? Evolution was installed on here by default
13:05:39 <ais523> admittedly, it needed to be configured to contact all three of my email addresses
13:05:56 <ais523> and I really don't get why people use web browsers to access all sorts of services they aren't designed for
13:06:03 <ais523> gmail's interface is hideous compared to Evolutions
13:06:14 <ais523> (and yes, I have used gmail, although I didn't create the account)
13:09:34 <ais523> and I'm not convinced it's possible to build a good interface inside the browser, because the browser is doing its own thing that's optimised for browsing
13:09:41 <ais523> not to mention, GMail doesn't work offline
13:09:53 <ais523> (I think they were trying to come up with some convoluted scheme to fix that, but still…)
13:12:36 <elliott_> <ais523> err, what? Evolution was installed on here by default
13:12:44 <elliott_> <ais523> and I really don't get why people use web browsers to access all sorts of services they aren't designed for
13:12:54 <ais523> it is, it notifies by default if you leave it running
13:13:05 <elliott_> ais523: yes, but it also connects via IMAP and creates rubbish IMAP folders and junk
13:13:12 <elliott_> admittedly, mostly an artifact of gmail's IMAP bridge
13:13:17 <ais523> and evolution-alarm-notifier (the calendar notifier) runs even if Evolution isn't running, if the calendar is non-empty
13:13:25 <elliott_> anyway, evolution's interface is horrible compared to gmail; I don't particularly want something that runs in the browser either, but
13:13:30 <ais523> well I don't have this problem because I'm not using gmail
13:13:42 <elliott_> are two things I can't use any mail client that lacks
13:13:48 <elliott_> *restructure that so it makes sense
13:14:05 <ais523> hmm, I tend to turn threading off in things that support turning it off
13:14:09 <ais523> I turned it off in my newsreader, for instance
13:14:19 <ais523> so that I don't have to click round between multiple threads to find all the messages that have arrived recently
13:14:24 <elliott_> I've reviewed many, many alternatives to gmail and there's nothing that I would consider an adequate replacement for its interface for even the basic mail tasks I do
13:14:41 <elliott_> believe me, if I could have control over my email with an interface I could stand, I would have done it ages ago
13:15:02 <ais523> so here's one for you: suppose you need to mark all the messages in your inbox with a particular string in their subject line as unread
13:15:04 <Vorpal> I found that alpine is quite a nice client.
13:15:07 <ais523> how do you do that in gmail?
13:15:09 <elliott_> I would find navigating and reading e.g. Agora mail without conversations or at least standard threading impossible, since I've usually forgotten a thread when new messages get posted in it
13:15:17 <ais523> (note: actual real-world problem I had a while ago)
13:15:20 <fizzie> I don't think Evolution worked very well offline either, but that was several years back. (I mean, assuming all the email is on an IMAP server somewhere. At the very least, it needed some manual marking of which folders need to be available.)
13:15:23 <ais523> elliott_: that's what quoting's for, right?
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13:15:43 <elliott_> ais523: search for the string, click check box in the top-left, click the second sentence link in "All 20 conversations on this page are selected. Select all conversations that match this search", more -> mark as unread
13:15:46 <ais523> fizzie: right, it does, but they've improved the interface by exposing that option right when you're configuring the account
13:15:54 <elliott_> ais523: you can also use a filter to apply it to all incoming mail (and then apply that filter retroactively)
13:15:55 <ais523> elliott_: some messages contain the string not in the subject line
13:15:58 <elliott_> and filters can be quite involved
13:16:00 <ais523> and those ones shouldn't be marked as unread
13:16:19 <ais523> also, this is one-off so filters aren't helpful, and putting the string in the search box also finds messages that don't contain the exact string, but an approximation
13:16:28 <elliott_> filters can be used for one-off operations
13:16:42 <elliott_> and "subject:X" seems exact here
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13:16:49 <Vorpal> Personally I use IMAP with thunderbird on top of gmail. I'm sure you are all going to hate me for that...
13:16:52 <elliott_> if not, something silly like subject:+"test" would be
13:16:57 <ais523> it's still a lot more work than setting the search style to "subject" then typing in the string to search on
13:17:00 <fizzie> ais523: That's Tfoo\n;wN in mutt.
13:17:09 <elliott_> ais523: not really, I could have used keyboard shortcuts
13:17:59 <Vorpal> what annoys me with the web interface of gmail is mostly that it doesn't use a monospace font for text-only mails.
13:18:08 <elliott_> where <???> = something I don't know to go from "selected all on page" -> "selected all"
13:18:21 <elliott_> you have to enable a Lab, but that's one click
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13:20:37 <elliott_> Vorpal: bleh, seems it's gone, or I just hallucinated it -- otoh there's about 500 user styles for it says a quick search
13:22:19 <Vorpal> elliott_, anyway another annoyance with gmail is that I can't gpg-sign or verify gpg-signatures. Not sure how signing would work even, I would certainly not trust uploading my private key to google.
13:22:46 <elliott_> there are browser extensions for that, I think
13:23:20 <fizzie> (My main grief with mutt is the search thing; it's not really good when it comes to things involving not-headers, and IMAP. It does try to do server-side search up to some degree, but I recall I've sometimes done something that made it download each message.)
13:23:41 <Vorpal> used to enigmail in thunderbird by now though. Only annoyance with using thunderbird for gmail is the label based system doesn't fit that well into the folder-based system of thunderbird
13:23:49 <fizzie> (Incidentally, there seems to be a Mutt patch that adds support for using Gmail's search syntax if you're using a Gmail account over IMAP.)
13:23:53 <elliott_> fizzie: There's that http://notmuchmail.org/ thing that just does search.
13:24:32 <elliott_> ais523: anyway, a web browser has what I would consider significant advantages over a traditional desktop application as far as email goes, IMO
13:24:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, I set thunderbird to mirror everything on gmail.
13:24:45 <Vorpal> presumably searches happen locally
13:24:45 <elliott_> ais523: in that it's designed around portrait-scale, reflowable text
13:25:02 <elliott_> ais523: with "light" navigation as part of the content rather than something omnipresent
13:25:12 <fizzie> elliott_: Ooh, I've been looking for such a thing. I've got an offlineimap setup that keeps a synchronized local backup of all mail, but I've mostly been just grepping at it when looking for something.
13:25:13 <elliott_> since email is essentially a document, this is more appropriate, IMO
13:25:14 <ais523> elliott_: hmm… reflowable text has to be a solved problem by now
13:25:17 <elliott_> it's like PDF vs. HTML documents in general
13:25:35 <ais523> the thing is, people expect emails to have significant line breaks, because they usually do
13:25:45 <elliott_> ais523: well, yes, I'm just saying that as far as a fixed layout of widgets vs. a "document" display of things goes, the latter seems better for email to me
13:25:45 <ais523> so I think many clients choose not to reflow emails
13:25:52 <elliott_> and web browsers are pretty good at that by now
13:26:01 <elliott_> ais523: oh, that's an incidental thing, but yes
13:26:08 <ais523> well, it makes sense to use an HTML renderer to display emails
13:26:11 <ais523> especially HTML emails
13:26:13 <elliott_> ais523: it's more the "type" of document I'm talking about
13:26:16 <Vorpal> elliott_, anyway, doesn't sending too long lines in email break the protocol?
13:26:21 <ais523> but you do that in the bit of the client that displays the email itself, not the whole thing
13:26:28 <elliott_> ais523: I wasn't talking about rendering engine
13:26:30 <Vorpal> you would have to MIME encode it to get around that
13:26:43 <ais523> what were you talking about?
13:26:56 <elliott_> I never mentioned a rendering engine :P
13:27:04 <ais523> well, you mentioned a display
13:27:20 <ais523> as in, which bit of a browser are you saying is useful here? the rendering engine? something else?
13:27:38 <elliott_> by display, I meant more "structure"
13:27:38 <ais523> clearly it's only a subset of the browser that matters, as, say, an FTP client is irrelevant
13:27:52 <elliott_> well, I'm not saying that a web browser is the perfect way to present an email client.
13:28:11 <elliott_> I'm saying that an email client is better suited to the kind of pages a web browser displays than the kind of widget layouts a traditional GUI toolkit displays
13:28:36 <elliott_> consider that in every email client, the vast majority of the viewing area is just displaying a portrait, scrollable document with light formatting
13:28:41 <ais523> and I'm saying that that argument only applies to the bit of the client that shows the email itself
13:28:45 <elliott_> that's an HTML page, down to a tee
13:28:49 <ais523> which is typically not done with a GUI toolkit, but with an HTML renderer
13:28:56 <fizzie> Also: it looks very silly when mutt asks for "Password for user@gmail.com@imap.gmail.com".
13:28:59 <elliott_> the rest of it is things like reply buttons and the like, and displaying all of those all the time is pointless
13:29:10 <elliott_> putting them, e.g. only at the top and bottom of a message is much more reasonable
13:29:11 <ais523> things like a list of messages?
13:29:16 <ais523> and a list of accounts?
13:29:32 <ais523> I have my reply button on a toolbar, so I can memorize its location
13:29:35 <elliott_> ais523: yes, web browsers are also very good at lists of things, because what's each item in the list of messages?
13:29:41 <ais523> (I dislike the Thunderbird style at associating it with a message)
13:29:50 <ais523> elliott_: err, no, web browsers are not good at lists of things
13:29:57 <Vorpal> why would you need to reflow email? An email line can't be longer than 72 chars iirc, and that fits easily into the standard terminal size of 80x25
13:30:09 <ais523> they're good at links, but links are basically "reacting to clicks", and everything can do that trivially
13:30:19 <elliott_> that's a ridiculously shallow view of what a link is
13:30:22 <ais523> and actually, a list of emails /isn't/ a list of links
13:30:23 <elliott_> anyway, this is a pointless discussion
13:30:28 <ais523> because you can do things like select then
13:31:29 <fizzie> "Ooh, hey, there's actually *new messages* in Gmail... oh, it's just that Google Wave is shutting down, and this was sent in November last year." I might not use that account very much.
13:31:43 <fizzie> Sorry, not "shutting down", it's "sunsetting".
13:33:10 <fizzie> There's also an: "Here's some people you might know on Google+: Larry Page, Google, ..." Well, uh... I guess I know *of* him, but still, isn't that a bit generic?
13:33:29 <fizzie> I guess he's just lonely.
13:33:44 <elliott_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cache_invalidation what a pitiful article
13:35:03 <ais523> the talk page is pretty funny too
13:35:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, iirc it suggested notch and Linus Torvalds to me at some point.
13:36:44 <ais523> do celebrities have more or fewer friends on average than people as a whole?
13:36:55 * elliott_ considers adding "It is one of the three hard problems in computer science."
13:37:05 <elliott_> I bet I could even find more than one source ;)
13:40:01 <tswett> elliott_: yeah, deleting "Surprised look" would probably be good.
13:40:13 <Vorpal> hm is it just me, or is the term "indie game" often used in a different way than it's literal meaning? The literal meaning being "game not published by a different company than the developer of the game"
13:41:30 <Vorpal> which would include games like Portal 2 I believe? (For the Steam version at least.) Yet few would call that an indie game.
13:41:45 <ais523> Vorpal: it's being used as "game not created by a major development company", which is not the same, but is a different literal meaning of the same phrase
13:42:05 <Vorpal> ais523, technically I believe Skyrim is an indie game though. Heh.
13:42:45 <ais523> no, your definition is stupid because it doesn't match common usage
13:42:58 <ais523> and the common-usage definition is also entirely reasonable and fits the meaning of its individual words
13:43:01 <Vorpal> ais523, true, that is what it is used for, but then is Trine 2 an indie game?
13:43:13 <Vorpal> because it has a publisher, unlike the first Trine game
13:43:18 <ais523> I don't know, I've never played it
13:43:38 <elliott_> Vorpal: you seem to have missed the part where ais523 explicitly criticised your publisher-based definition
13:44:11 <ais523> elliott_: oh right, I'd forgotten that his scrollback sometimes doesn't even extend one line
13:44:16 <Vorpal> elliott_, I did notice it? But it came after that line?
13:44:38 <elliott_> <ais523> Vorpal: it's being used as "game not created by a major development company", which is not the same, but is a different literal meaning of the same phrase
13:44:40 <Vorpal> might be different on your end, I'm on /really/ laggy connection atm.
13:44:41 <elliott_> <ais523> no, your definition is stupid because it doesn't match common usage
13:44:43 <elliott_> <Vorpal> ais523, true, that is what it is used for, but then is Trine 2 an indie game?
13:44:50 <elliott_> there is no way you could have said that before both of those
13:44:55 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> ais523, technically I believe Skyrim is an indie game though. Heh.
13:44:56 <Vorpal> <ais523> Vorpal: it's being used as "game not created by a major development company", which is not the same, but is a different literal meaning of the same phrase
13:45:02 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> ais523, true, that is what it is used for, but then is Trine 2 an indie game?
13:45:03 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> because it has a publisher, unlike the first Trine game
13:45:07 <Vorpal> <ais523> no, your definition is stupid because it doesn't match common usage
13:45:10 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> small studio though
13:45:33 <Vorpal> elliott_, and you see it was "true" in response to how it is being used.
13:45:45 <Vorpal> not the point where he said that it was stupid
13:46:06 <Vorpal> and I'm not saying I use that definition, I just pointed out that the literal meaning was that.
13:51:05 <elliott_> wp says "Independent video games (commonly referred to as indie games) are video games created by individuals or small teams without video game publisher financial support." which isn't the same
13:51:30 <ais523> elliott_: I was going on the meanings of "independent" and "video game" combined
13:51:43 <ais523> as in, I assumed that Vorpal meant "literal" as in "composed out of the meanings of the individual words"
13:51:48 <ais523> as it was the sense he seemed to be using it in
13:52:24 <Vorpal> <ais523> as in, I assumed that Vorpal meant "literal" as in "composed out of the meanings of the individual words" <-- indeed
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14:02:52 <elliott_> Taneb: fly up to the world pls
14:04:55 <Taneb> Can't really be bothered atm
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14:09:54 <HackEgo> tikfreenode: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
14:09:58 <elliott_> My `welcome aim has become impeccable.
14:15:12 <fizzie> Yes, most of your welcomed persons have indeed quit with a rather acceptable rapidity.
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14:19:02 <elliott_> Friendship: I think you will agree that the continued growth of this channel has lead only to bad things.
14:19:13 <elliott_> He's the stray kitten that wandered in bewildered.
14:21:23 <Friendship> @tell Infinikiller64 <Infinikiller64> remember when you ruined this IRC with your name and mlp // Yup! Clearly you must remember what it was like in the better times, before. Y'know, before you were here. Those previous seven years when I was here and you were not.
14:21:41 <elliott_> Friendship: Haha what the shit is that guy saying
14:21:59 <elliott_> @tell Infinikiller64 Don't bother coming back.
14:22:11 <elliott_> Wait, I'm meant to be diplomatic now.
14:22:22 <elliott_> EHHHH being a jerk in /msg causes my diplomacy to end.
14:22:47 <Friendship> It's funny because he PM'd me that while I wasn't even online or saying anything.
14:24:45 <fizzie> Friendship: How do you ruin things with your name and a multilayer perceptron?
14:28:15 <fizzie> No, seriously, what's the mlp there?
14:28:22 <ion> I was just about to ask that.
14:30:22 <Friendship> But really, pretty much all I've done is change my name to "Friendship"
14:30:26 <Friendship> I hear the word existed before the show.
14:30:40 <fizzie> I still keep thinking it as a Mortal Kombat finishing move.
14:31:01 <fizzie> Every time you open your virtumouth, I imagine a pixelated guy giving a flower to another.
14:31:01 -!- MDude has joined.
14:32:38 <Friendship> Also I put Time Cube references in the topic.
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15:20:49 <chickenz> mroman: I put my interpreter here : http://pastebin.com/9PDkUiH2
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15:45:05 <HackEgo> rasiakikkuvissännekkaampiin
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16:02:08 <lambdabot> Taneb: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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16:23:28 <ais523> <Judge Alsup> In the copyright-liability briefs due on March 9, please include analysis of whether or not the copyrightability of the selection, arrangement, and structure of the APIs depend on the underlying programming language being Java as opposed to Python or QBASIC or other non- Java programming language.
16:23:38 * ais523 wonders what possessed him to ask that
16:23:43 <ais523> and the selection of languages, fwiw
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16:47:39 <Friendship> ais523: Today in History: Oracle convinces government that only programs written in or implementing Java are copyrightable.
16:48:00 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
16:48:26 <ais523> Friendship: that would be ridiculous :)
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16:56:55 <ais523> @tell lambdabot thanks for relaying all these messages for us
16:57:44 <Ngevd> Why do I have to be the #esoteric kitten?
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17:17:51 <Phantom_Hoover> For the last fortnight or so I've been intermittently terrifying myself by constantly probing into the nature of consciousness and I just want things to go back to normal.
17:19:21 <Ngevd> Real life doesn't exist; so get on with it
17:23:52 <Friendship> We all have moments of ontological crisis.
17:24:00 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: i suggest not giving a fuck
17:24:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Friendship, yeah, but this one's been going on forever and I wish it'd fucking leave me alone.
17:25:00 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, tried that, unfortunatly ontological crises have this nasty habit of resurfacing whenever you do anything ontological, i.e. existing.
17:25:50 <Friendship> Well, you can either desperately try to surface by surrounding yourself in the glorious materialistic joys of life, or intentionally hit bottom in hopes of recoil.
17:27:25 <oklopol> what i do is i don't give a shit and it goes away
17:27:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes oko but not everyone gets to be as cool as you it's a shame.
17:28:10 <Friendship> The former is not a cure, it just masks symptoms. So it works in the sense that you can float along for a while 'til it subsides on its own.
17:29:08 <oklopol> Friendship: i thought you never had crises of any kind
17:29:49 <Ngevd> I mainly have the sort of crises where you convince yourself that people are imaginary
17:30:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Friendship, but I'm scared that I'll just end up at the bottom forever, even though rates of suicide among the metaphysically-inclined aren't anything near that high.
17:30:41 <Friendship> oklopol: I don't, Friendship is Magic!
17:32:28 <Friendship> Phantom_Hoover: I can't speak for everyone, but last time I was having a few ontohell weeks, it just so happened that my grandfather died. Ironically, that helped a lot. The issue being forced brought me pretty low, but from low I could get back.
17:33:38 <Ngevd> Phantom_Hoover, obviously the solution is to kill your grandparents
17:33:51 <oklopol> i was just gonna say i hope no one says the obvious joke
17:34:01 <Phantom_Hoover> I've got this nagging suspicion my surviving grandparents are immortal.
17:34:12 <Ngevd> Only one way to find out!
17:34:36 <oklopol> Friendship's first day on irc
17:35:01 <Friendship> I'm just tryin' to live up to my new nick here X-D
17:35:36 <oklopol> don't worry we all love Phantom_Hoover and hope he finds his way
17:35:43 <oklopol> so Phantom_Hoover when's uni starting
17:36:17 <ion> Meanwhile in Finland http://is12.snstatic.fi/img/978/1288452408505.jpeg
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17:38:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Also the ontohell is annoyingly bipolar; right now, even if I try to induce it I can't get it bad, but a bit before my first post I was close to despair.
17:39:52 <Friendship> ion: To get to your class on the third floor, please enter the open fifth floor window and use the stairs (not the elevator)
17:41:47 <Vorpal> wow, this is one buggy ADSL-modem/router. Somehow it managed to assign the same IP to two devices...
17:43:00 <Friendship> Vorpal: The real trick would be to get both somehow confused into thinking they both had the same TCP stream open to some host.
17:43:27 <Vorpal> well I fixed it anyway
17:44:33 <Vorpal> also wtf, I'm looking at the network settings in ubuntu's network manager. The passwords it displays for a wlan network is definitely not the same as was entered
17:44:41 <Vorpal> rather it is something crazy in hex.
17:45:17 <Vorpal> oh well, I guess if I can't find the sodding password I just have to make a new one, rather than configure the new router to use the same as the old one...
17:45:27 <Vorpal> which means I have to update it on several computers
17:46:24 <Friendship> There's some standard scheme to convert ASCII passwords to binary strings, it may be displaying the post-conversion value.
17:46:34 <Vorpal> Friendship, and how do I convert it back
17:47:12 <ion> vorpal: I remember encountering the “WLAN passphare stored in hex format” issue in some old release, but at least in Ubuntu 11.10 they’re readable in the settings.
17:47:25 <Vorpal> ion, I'm using the LTS version on my laptop
17:47:44 <ion> Sounds about right.
17:47:57 <Vorpal> well I'll make a new one
17:48:03 <Vorpal> I wonder what the max length is
17:48:35 <Vorpal> hm, am I still connected?
17:55:21 <fizzie> It's just PBKDF2 for WPA.
17:57:36 <fizzie> I could understand showing a hex string for WEP since that's what gets entered, but weird to do that for WPA2-PSK.
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17:59:28 <fizzie> It's not exactly very reversible. (I mean, it's basically HMAC-SHA1 with 4096 iterations.)
18:01:38 <Friendship> Yeah, I feared it may be irreversible :)
18:03:44 <Vorpal> yeah I'm changing password
18:04:13 <Vorpal> also wtf, the router is claiming one of the devices is connected on an unknown port. Actually WLAN. It shows it as WLAN just fine for the other laptop on WLAn
18:04:26 <Vorpal> and a third laptop is unable to connect to wlan?
18:04:45 <Vorpal> also that laptop runs windows 7, so I have nfc how to debug that.
18:06:41 <Friendship> Vorpal: It's plugged into an unknown VIRTUPORT *ooeeeoo*
18:07:04 <fizzie> Possibly three laptops were just too much.
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18:25:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw that is one of the computers that previously ended up sharing IP
18:25:26 <Vorpal> when using ethernet that is
18:25:39 <Vorpal> (that laptops needs to be configured for both)
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18:38:57 <Vorpal> and hm the laptop that didn't work before suddenly just works
18:39:22 <fizzie> That's networking for you.
18:39:44 <Vorpal> correction: networking with consumer-crap router
18:40:08 <Vorpal> I bet it wouldn't be as painful using a linux box as a router
18:40:33 <Vorpal> also the web interface of the router is super-slow
18:40:41 <Vorpal> some speedtouch thingy
18:41:18 <Vorpal> and seems this one lacks telnet unlike my previous router
18:42:00 <Vorpal> hm ftp, http, https and port 1723?
18:45:51 <Friendship> Feh, I was hoping I could use the unix["Hyuk"] trick to shorten my tweetable interpreter a bit.
18:48:20 <ais523> it only helps when it gets rid of a pair of parens
18:48:37 <Friendship> Turns out I was pretty low on parens anyway X-D
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18:49:33 <ion> unix["Hyuk"] trick?
18:49:51 <fizzie> Presumably the 1["foo"] trick in general, that is.
18:50:01 <fizzie> I don't suppose writing "unix" instead of "1" helps much.
18:50:19 <ion> I was wondering what it has to do with Unix.
18:50:35 <Friendship> I just remembered it because I most recently saw it in an IOCCC submission that used unix[stuff]
18:50:41 <fizzie> !c printf("%c\n", windows["Why no worky?"]);
18:53:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, of course it doesn't compile, using the identifier "windows" there is a Microsoft extension, and EgoBot doesn't run on Windows so...
18:54:42 <Vorpal> Friendship, oh come on, I just made a further joke...
18:54:57 <Vorpal> also hm you are Gregor, right
18:55:38 <Vorpal> Friendship, I said that after I did /whois
18:55:45 <Vorpal> which is why there was no question mark at the end
18:56:13 <Friendship> Except that "you are <name>, right" is a sentence formation that can only be a question.
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18:57:27 <Friendship> I got an email from Subway saying (amongst other things) that the Lafayette exclusive special is the Seafood Sensation. Because rural Indiana is the best place for seafood D-8
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18:58:42 <Vorpal> uh wikipedia indicates it is about 20 or so things in US
18:59:01 <Vorpal> everywhere from New York to Minnesota has a "Lafayette"?
18:59:02 <Friendship> Lafayette was a French general who we liked a lot before we arbitrarily decided to hate France.
18:59:11 <Friendship> So his name is plastered all over the US.
18:59:17 <Friendship> But this Lafayette is Lafayette, Indiana, yes.
18:59:37 <Vorpal> Friendship, so when was this? I mean you hated France a couple of times during history
18:59:52 <coppro> he was a freedom general
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19:01:13 <Vorpal> So apparently the UI for this router is significantly faster (in page loading times) when switching to English from the (default) Swedish translation
19:01:37 <Vorpal> with significantly I mean from 10-15 seconds before the switch, 4-5 after
19:01:41 <Vorpal> which is still pretty bad
19:02:02 <fizzie> Is it translated with client-side scripting?
19:02:45 <fizzie> Also Lafayette is a (chain of?) department store(s) in (at least) Paris. I remember they had a fancy roof.
19:03:05 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Galerie_Lafayette_Haussmann_Dome.jpg -- see, that's fancy.
19:03:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, does "view source" (in chrome) view the source as downloaded or after any DOM-modifications by javascript?
19:03:32 <Vorpal> if "as downloaded" then the answer is that it does not use js to translate
19:04:07 <fizzie> I think it's as downloaded, yes. The "inspect element" shows the current tree, of course.
19:04:51 <Vorpal> this is my third Thomson ADSL modem btw
19:05:09 <Vorpal> the first one had a really fast and responsive web UI, also very basic graphically
19:05:21 <Vorpal> the second one was more fancy graphically, and was slower.
19:05:27 <Vorpal> this one is even fancier and even slower
19:05:30 <fizzie> I have a "ZTE" now, and it's the GPL-violatingest modem ever, which is I think it's one notable feature.
19:05:47 <Vorpal> well my ISP provides the modems to me
19:06:00 <Vorpal> doesn't cost me anything thus
19:06:04 <fizzie> Same here, it's what they bundled with the VDSL2 deal.
19:06:15 <fizzie> Still doesn't come with sources.
19:07:20 <Vorpal> btw my current one is a "TG585 v8" which they seem to have dropped the "speedtouch" brand from, but when looking through the UI the menus and so on are familiar
19:07:25 <Vorpal> so it is basically a speedtouch
19:07:44 <Vorpal> pretty much same UI but different graphical theme
19:07:44 <fizzie> I think SFC at least knows about it.
19:07:56 <Friendship> <Vorpal> Friendship, so when was this? I mean you hated France a couple of times during history // When we liked them in the American Revolution (we would have liked anybody who hated Britain at that time)
19:08:05 <fizzie> ZTE's Finnish folks told the guy who was asking after it to talk with the ISP; the ISP just stayed silent.
19:08:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, how would the ISP be able to do this?
19:09:22 <fizzie> Vorpal: Software Freedom Conservancy, they do GPL enforcement and such for their member projects, and BusyBox (which is what the box primarily uses) is one of them.
19:09:55 <fizzie> Also I suppose it's borderline possible the ISP has the sources; the firmware is slightly customized. Though they might just get finished binaries too.
19:10:23 <fizzie> Or some sort of halfway-built "has everything compiled but has the firmware build scripts so they can replace settings and logos and whatnot" deal.
19:10:30 <fizzie> Who knows, those are certainly not public details.
19:10:38 <Vorpal> presumably they use the linux kernel as well then? Unless busybox runs on something else (which I doubt)?
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19:11:00 <fizzie> Yes, it runs on Linux. And I think there was probably some amount of other GPL code in there.
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19:12:47 <fizzie> Zebra, at least, though I'm not entirely sure what that's in there for.
19:13:07 <Vorpal> what is zebra in this context?
19:13:16 <fizzie> It's that routing daemon.
19:13:30 <fizzie> I think there was some sort of RIPv<something> support mentioned.
19:14:10 <Vorpal> I can't see why you would need anything that complicated on a consumer router
19:14:11 <fizzie> And of course tools like iproute2 and netfilter and bridge-utils are probably GPL'd, but they're rather close to the kernel anyway.
19:14:24 <Vorpal> you just need iptables and well, iproute2, and so on
19:14:59 <fizzie> It has those; I suppose one of their customers has wanted RIP for some reason or another, and they haven't bothered to isolate the feature for that customer.
19:15:11 <fizzie> It only runs RIP toward the WAN interfaces, anyway.
19:15:45 <fizzie> Maybe some of their customers does some nasty traffic snooping by sending RIP routing updates for individual IPs. :p
19:16:39 <fizzie> Oh, it also has bftpd on it, that's GPL'd. (I've forgotten what it used the FTP server for.)
19:17:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, probably to upload new firmware?
19:17:38 <fizzie> Maybe, though it's got quite a few methods for that already.
19:18:20 <fizzie> It does TR-069 remote control, and of course there's the HTTP interface's file upload, and a TFTP server though I think that's tied to the TR-069.
19:21:05 <fizzie> Also I think the web server was some existing "micro_httpd" except rather extensively customized; but that had some more permissive license.
19:22:44 <Friendship> http://support.zte.com.cn/support/news/NewsDetail.aspx?newsId=1000502 ?
19:23:07 <Friendship> (Presumably not the same device, but apparently they've learned their lesson in the past?)
19:23:41 <fizzie> That's an Android phone, but I guess.
19:27:50 <fizzie> Regarding the earlier question, presumably the ISP could ask for the sources. The impression I got from the guy's ISP-user-forum posting was that ZTE just said they don't speak to end users directly and that he should contact the place where he got the device.
19:28:05 <fizzie> They don't give out firmware updates from ZTE either.
19:28:19 <fizzie> At least for this device, maybe for the phone.
19:28:59 <fizzie> I vaguely recall that ZTE's name has been mentioned in quite a few contexts together with "source" and "GPL" and "lack of".
19:31:34 <fizzie> Yes, they seem to have downloadable firmware updates for the Blade phone.
19:31:42 <fizzie> "ZTE-BLADE(Elisa)driver(ZTE Corporation is the owner of copyright in the software. Other works experiencing may be trademarks or copyrights of their respective owners.)"
19:32:59 <fizzie> They also used to have a "ztefinland.com", but apparently that domain is now taken by a domain squatter.
19:34:01 <fizzie> (ztesweden.se is still online, and their "contact us" lists the Finnish office, though.)
19:34:34 <Friendship> Technically speaking, it is the ISP who are responsible for providing the source, since they are also distributing the device. However, they were probably never given the source from ZTE, and wouldn't be if they asked.
19:37:16 <Vorpal> still, action needs to be taken
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20:05:15 <olsner> fizzie: are you looking for kernel source for the ZTE Blade?
20:08:24 <fizzie> I don't even have one.
20:09:33 <olsner> then I will *definitely* not help you find that
20:09:55 <fizzie> There was a link to ZTE Blade kernel posted not more than about twenty lines back.
20:14:33 <olsner> that's like, before the start of time, like
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21:10:26 -!- oerjan has set topic: QUANTUM-LANGUAGE-PARSE-SYNTAX-GRAMMAR is the Correct Language, as it is based on fact. There is no ambiguity with anything Quantum, it is purely Mathematical. Have you ever thought of Language being Mathematical? | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/wiki/ has moved servers!.
21:10:59 <oerjan> the topic was getting old
21:11:41 <quintopia> i knew it was gonna change to something like that soon
21:19:43 -!- skvmb has joined.
21:20:10 <HackEgo> skvmb: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
21:20:58 <skvmb> How does one go about adding a page to the esolang wiki?
21:21:12 <fizzie> `@ oerjan welcome oerjan
21:21:15 <HackEgo> oerjan: oerjan: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
21:21:28 <oerjan> skvmb: search for it, then you get an option to create it
21:22:32 <oerjan> so basically, no fever but you will soon starve.
21:23:41 <oerjan> skvmb: you also get such an option if you follow a red link on some other wiki page
21:23:46 <ion> oklopol: I’m pretty much in the same condition. A painkiller helps with the throat.
21:24:01 <ion> Also, TWSS
21:24:17 <skvmb> Thanks. Searching for the name of my language (which is not listed) gave me the link to add page.
21:24:40 <ais523> just heard on a TV quiz show: the contestant was asked what Babbage was famous for (multiple choice), and discounted inventing the computer because she thought Apple invented the computer
21:25:09 <oklopol> i just assumed i was going to die
21:25:11 <ion> But Steve *did* invent the computer.
21:25:41 <quintopia> he and al gore are responsible for the modern technological world
21:26:21 <ion> oklopol: I actually didn’t have much fever but i was feeling absolutely horrible otherwise, what with the sinus pain radiating to create headache and earache.
21:26:55 * oerjan seems to have escaped the flu so far this year knock on wood
21:27:12 <oklopol> i had 38 and was feeling fine before going to sleep, just woke up and fever is down but i feel like a horse in the rain.
21:27:15 <mroman> What's with this "r.e.s" guy?
21:27:33 <oerjan> mroman: hm? an old regular...
21:28:01 <oerjan> i don't think i've seen em in a while
21:29:16 <mroman> The article also uses plural forms.
21:29:20 <oerjan> mroman: spivak pronoun, common in agora nomic where i used to be (and some here still are)
21:29:45 <mroman> em is short for "them"
21:29:55 <oerjan> (actually everyone here who joined did so after i left, i think)
21:30:19 <oerjan> mroman: it's an invented, gender neutral pronoun. (spivak is the name of the inventor)
21:30:56 <oerjan> you might consider it short for them if you consider that acceptable for singular gender-neutral use
21:31:03 <fizzie> oerjan: "The original pronoun set was not created by me. I think I read about it in a newspaper clipping, perhaps from the Boston Globe, during the time I taught at Brandeis, and I believe it was credited to an anthropologist; later on, when I wanted to use it, I was unable to locate the source."
21:31:06 <skvmb> maybe it's the morphine, but I have no idea what any of you are talking about
21:31:19 -!- NihilistDandy has joined.
21:31:22 <fizzie> oerjan: Anyway, e didn't invent them.
21:31:45 <oerjan> skvmb: um we've done several different topics in the last few minutes, i think
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21:32:31 <skvmb> yep. i caught the gates one. but that weird ass language looks pretty cool.
21:33:02 <oklopol> skvmb: why are you on morphine?
21:33:03 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
21:33:18 <skvmb> addictive personality, i guess
21:33:38 <oerjan> skvmb: wait, no "gates" has been mentioned since you entered that i noticed
21:33:58 <oerjan> unless you are referring to steve gates and bill jobs
21:34:04 <oklopol> oerjan: steve gates, the founder of applesoft?
21:35:29 <skvmb> a programming language, where the user plays pong to bounce the ball of the desired letters to form code
21:35:46 <Friendship> That sounds more like a really poor choice of editor than a programming language.
21:35:54 <oerjan> Friendship: you'd think
21:36:30 <oerjan> although admittedly that approximately describes several language on the wiki
21:37:24 <oklopol> Friendship: wait why the ellipsiiiiiiis
21:37:42 <mroman> Btw: Who said that humans ain't turing complete?
21:37:47 <Friendship> I am almost as much of an ellipses fiend as I am a friendship friend.
21:37:59 <Friendship> mroman: Human individuals, or human society?
21:37:59 <skvmb> i'm not turing complete, my memory is shot
21:38:04 <Friendship> An individual human is trivially non-TC.
21:38:06 <mroman> Friendship: Individuals
21:38:15 <Friendship> mroman: I can solve the halting problem for any human.
21:38:21 <oklopol> skvmb: are you in finland? i would certainly like some morphine right now.
21:38:36 <mroman> skvmb: Most computers also have not infinite RAM.
21:38:42 <skvmb> i wish. i'm in the piss all united states. :(
21:38:55 <mroman> so a computer is also not exactly very turing complete.
21:39:14 <Friendship> mroman: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Bounded-storage_machine
21:39:21 <mroman> Humans can interpret brainfuck code
21:39:25 -!- NihilistDandy has quit.
21:39:43 <mroman> Given an infinite amount of paper and pencils.
21:39:50 <Friendship> Because some BF code needs trillions of trillions of steps to reach a conclusion.
21:39:53 <oklopol> mroman: humans cannot implement the - operation in cells divisible by 832.
21:40:32 <oklopol> this is called the howard-steve isomorphism and it's an important theorem in esology
21:41:01 <mroman> Friendship: Ok. A human could die before reaching the conclusion.
21:41:15 <skvmb> But, people can be programmed right?
21:41:37 <Friendship> mroman: For all humans, there exists at least one BF program which does terminate but takes more steps than the human can run in their lifetime.
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21:42:04 <fizzie> Friendship: What sort of finite-lifetime humans *your* friends are?
21:42:07 <oklopol> and more importantly, there is no proof that it terminates that they could find in their lifetime
21:42:13 <mroman> Machines can never be turing complete.
21:42:21 -!- Nisstyre has joined.
21:42:30 <oklopol> (put that inside the quantifier)
21:42:31 <skvmb> IRP is exactly what I was looking for
21:42:31 <Friendship> mroman: The physical universe is limited, so duh. We can only make approximations of an ideal.
21:42:47 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
21:42:55 <Friendship> Hence why pages like http://esolangs.org/wiki/Bounded-storage_machine exist.
21:43:30 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
21:44:43 <skvmb> please someone define howard-steve isomorphism
21:45:36 <Friendship> The trickiest bit of the Howard-Steve Isomorphism is that, since it's a treatise on the nature of human thought, it also comes with the corollary that noöne can understand the Howard-Steve Isomorphism.
21:45:56 <Friendship> Apparently it is both an isomorphism and a treatise. Who knew.
21:46:56 <quintopia> i think the welcome message for newcomers could be automated. harvest a list of nicks from the logs, boil them down to their first five letters. any time someone joins, hackego compares them against the list and auto-posts the message if not found
21:47:59 <oklopol> but it's so much fun to do manually
21:48:08 <skvmb> why 5 letters instead of entire string?
21:48:12 <fizzie> Boil them down to their first five letters, then add the wine and let simmer for 15 minutes.
21:48:28 <ion> KAADA SULA VOI… ok, sorry
21:48:58 -!- oklopol has changed nick to oklofok.
21:49:09 <oklofok> not sure how five would help
21:49:30 <fizzie> We'd just have all oklo[a-z] on the list.
21:49:47 -!- oklofok has changed nick to oklo[a-z].
21:49:48 -!- skvmb has changed nick to okloqok.
21:51:22 <oklo[a-z]> you don't have the stones to join the oklo family
21:51:36 <quintopia> 5 would be enough to cover all if itidus[0-9][0-9] though
21:51:56 -!- oklo[a-z] has changed nick to oklodol.
21:52:00 <oklodol> i think i've used this as well
21:53:28 <Friendship> Of course, I change my nick only in complete ways, not suffixes.
21:53:51 <oklodol> you never change your nick
21:54:05 <oklodol> you're too proud to be here with your own name
21:54:28 <fizzie> As least, from now on you shouldn't change. You have found the optimum.
21:54:39 <fizzie> The optimal. The optiest.
21:55:26 <oklodol> Antaako iti hellsti piiskaa takamukselle ja pussaa sitten pipi?
21:55:30 <quintopia> Friendship: just make sure you change your nick while in-channel so hackego could see
21:56:13 <ais523> Friendship is your middle name?
21:58:04 -!- okloqok has changed nick to kirkko.
21:58:22 <oklodol> so wait both magic and gregor are friendship's middle names?
21:58:27 -!- kirkko has changed nick to KirkkoPoltin.
21:58:36 <fizzie> "Gregor: of the Magic family".
21:58:52 <Friendship> Gregor Friendship Richards. So Gregor, Friendship, Magic and Richards are all my names (because Friendship is Magic)
21:59:19 <oklodol> have you used the nick Magic?
21:59:52 <oklodol> KirkkoPoltin: wrong language, you want norwegian
22:00:00 <Sgeo> * Is :Nickname is already in use.
22:00:07 <oklodol> i love how ownership is forever on freenode
22:00:14 <fizzie> You should keep switching between Friendship and Magic every three minutes to reinforce the fact that they are the same thing.
22:00:21 <Friendship> oklodol: I got Gregor by asking them to drop the old one.
22:00:23 -!- KirkkoPoltin has changed nick to KirkenBrenner.
22:00:39 <oklodol> Friendship: well right, but if you're a nice little sheeple and don't do that.
22:01:20 <oklodol> soon, we wouldn't even see the nick change anymore
22:02:05 <oklodol> we would just feel Friendship's presence
22:02:59 <oklodol> i have had the nick o here multiple times, and i don't think it was even registered.
22:03:15 <oklodol> but then i'm like hey i never disconnect so why bother
22:05:28 <oklodol> KirkenBrenner: where was your finnish from?
22:05:47 <HackEgo> intaviiheellityksi tultani ankinamme sinne varjailevin tereen velevinansa varhaisemme sallasi toisimmilta kaimpia kurskytkemme perusteni hillansa kirjoavistansa kahvempansa enomporuktivat peitteltaan loukuppimissa raammellymyille yleimoilleni yhdisterailla rekkaimetron kiellaajimien yleivisellennu
22:06:33 <oklodol> hillansa is an actual finnish word!
22:08:27 <oklodol> tultani, technically ankinamme, sinne, tereen could be, varhaisemme, sallasi, kaimpia obviously, hillansa, yhdisterailla
22:08:42 <oklodol> some may be slightly far-fetched
22:09:25 <ion> What’s railla?
22:09:26 <KirkenBrenner> Bitch du gjennomvåt bønner for lang. Nå ræva stinker.
22:10:19 <oklodol> can varhaisemme actually be used somehow?
22:10:25 <KirkenBrenner> Almost time to go. I have to go buy ammunition before work.
22:10:42 <fizzie> "tereen" is probably some dialectal greeting.
22:10:43 <oklodol> KirkenBrenner: for burning churches?
22:11:06 <KirkenBrenner> I'm a pizza delivery driver and people try to mug me alot
22:11:55 <KirkenBrenner> This girl I work with got shoved into a closet and her car was parted out
22:12:21 <fizzie> I read that twice as "people try to hug me alot".
22:12:22 <oklodol> in finland, the worst that usually happens to me is that someone wants me to drink with them
22:12:47 <KirkenBrenner> That happens when I deliver to the college, chicks playing beer pong
22:13:15 -!- tikfreenode has changed nick to Tiktalik.
22:13:43 <oklodol> in america, can't you just keep shooting?
22:14:10 <oklodol> don't you have the death penalty?
22:14:28 <fizzie> The paperwork is probably also... murder.
22:14:35 <oklodol> but a fine for killing someone?
22:14:40 <KirkenBrenner> If someone breaks into my house I can shoot them. But if they die I have to pay a fine.
22:15:08 <oklodol> so better not break into anyone's home unless they're poor
22:15:42 <oklodol> so if 10000 is something you can easily pay, could you just have machine guns pointed at the front door, killing anything that breaks in?
22:15:51 <KirkenBrenner> this one guy in california broke into a house and drown in the pool. his family sued and got over a million for them not making their pool safe to would be burglars
22:16:56 <KirkenBrenner> If you have the right permit for the machine gun then you could just set it up by the front door i guess
22:17:55 <KirkenBrenner> One man i delivered to opened the door all surprised weilding a shotgun. I mean, he called me to deliver the pizza! Didn't he know I was coming?
22:19:41 <oklodol> 10000 for killing someone who breaks in, 1000000 for him dying by accident?
22:21:29 <KirkenBrenner> not sure, $10k if they die from your actions i think
22:21:57 <KirkenBrenner> but if you just drag someone into your house and kill them, then it's murder
22:23:23 <oklodol> unless they were dressed provocatively ofc
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22:24:08 <KirkenBrenner> just put $10 in the pocket of the corpse and claim it was prostitution gone wrong
22:24:51 <oklodol> i hear there are whores in finland
22:25:42 <oklodol> weed is not something you can just go and buy unless you know ppl
22:25:55 <oklodol> it's like the most boring country in europe
22:26:56 <KirkenBrenner> damn, just walk up to someone and they have weed. usually shitty mexican weed. good weed is like $120 a quarter ounce
22:27:29 <oklodol> i have ways to get weed, and i don't really use it
22:27:35 <KirkenBrenner> acid was like 50 cents a hit, but now its like 10 bucks
22:27:36 <oklodol> my point is finland is boring
22:27:50 <oklodol> people do try to buy weed from me all the time
22:27:59 <oklodol> because i often look like i live on the street
22:28:08 <oklodol> i don't think finland has criminals
22:28:40 <oklodol> but seriously i don't know whether we even have the concept of probation here.
22:29:18 <oklodol> any other finn would probably know
22:30:43 <fizzie> oklodol: Ehdonalainen vankeusrangaistus.
22:31:10 <oklodol> that doesn't really mean we have it in finland
22:32:50 <fizzie> oklodol: As far as I know we do, and it happens quite a lot for non-repeat offender
22:34:08 <fizzie> Also virii-writing has been criminalized; it's 9a§ of chapter something of rikoslaki.
22:34:27 <fizzie> "1) tuo maahan, valmistaa, myy tai muuten levittää taikka asettaa saataville
22:34:32 <fizzie> a) sellaisen laitteen tai tietokoneohjelman taikka ohjelmakäskyjen sarjan, joka on suunniteltu tai muunnettu vaarantamaan tai vahingoittamaan tietojenkäsittelyä ..."
22:35:21 <fizzie> It's called "vaaran aiheuttaminen tietojenkäsittelylle", and you can get a fine or at most two years of prison.
22:35:45 <oklodol> yeah like a virus could ever actually work
22:36:10 * oerjan checks that norway has probation
22:37:09 <oklodol> fizzie: why does it have "tietokoneohjelman" and "ohjelmakskyjen sarjan" separately?
22:38:37 <oklodol> fizzie: possession is not a crime then
22:38:44 -!- KirkenBrenner has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:39:46 <fizzie> oklodol: It is, too (that's para 9b), but only when it's with intent to do harm with it.
22:40:09 <fizzie> "Joka aiheuttaakseen haittaa tai vahinkoa tietojenkäsittelylle taikka tieto- tai viestintäjärjestelmän toiminnalle tai turvallisuudelle pitää hallussaan 9 a §:n 1 kohdan a alakohdassa tarkoitettua laitetta, tietokoneohjelmaa tai ohjelmakäskyjen sarjaa taikka b alakohdassa tarkoitettua salasanaa, pääsykoodia tai muuta vastaavaa tietoa, on tuomittava tietoverkkorikosvälineen hallussapidosta sakkoon tai vankeuteen enintään kuudeksi ...
22:41:30 <oklodol> "joka on suunniteltu tai muunnettu vaarantamaan tai vahingoittamaan"
22:41:39 <oklodol> so i suppose you can write a virus as long as your intentions are good
22:43:33 <fizzie> Yes, the manufacturing part also requires intention to do harm.
22:44:02 <ion> oklodol: and you can prove it
22:44:32 -!- pikhq has joined.
22:44:53 <fizzie> But also planning to "-- murtamaan tai purkamaan sähköisen viestinnän teknisen suojauksen tai tietojärjestelmän suojauksen --" even with "good intentions" is criminal.
22:44:54 <oklodol> i don't have to prove i didn't buy a pen to kill my friends
22:45:33 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:45:41 <oklodol> so i wonder what they do in the cryptography department
22:46:29 <oklodol> my friend just implemented a man-in-the-browser attack and they're publishing it. i wonder if he and his supervisor are going to jail.
22:46:51 <oklodol> well i suppose it wasn't really a full thing.
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22:53:02 -!- elliott has joined.
22:53:32 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
22:58:17 <fizzie> oklodol: Sorry, actually there's an even more general "aiheuttaakseen haittaa tai vahinkoa" 'top-level' conditional before my quoted bit that also binds to the part about breaking protections. So I guess your friend is safe.
23:00:35 <elliott> pikhq: You can use mplayer or something to record a stream, right?
23:02:00 <elliott> pikhq: Excellent. This is the part where you tell me how.
23:02:05 <elliott> (Preferably with no transcoding.)
23:02:45 <pikhq> mplayer -dumpstream -dumpfile file-here url://goes/here
23:03:22 <elliott> Is there a way to play it at the same time too, or should I just run two of 'em
23:03:48 <pikhq> If you're moderately lucky, you can start playing the saved file.
23:03:55 <fizzie> oklodol: (Though of course it's a completely different thing if it's code for breaking a copy protection; I mean, even "organized discussion" about that is illegal.)
23:04:10 <pikhq> (works with some muxing formats)
23:04:33 <elliott> Running two takes twice the bandwidth. :(
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23:09:45 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
23:09:58 <fizzie> VLC can both play and capture, though it might be difficult to get a totally raw dump. (It's easy-ish to have it not transcode any streams, but I have a feeling it might still want to remux things.)
23:11:33 <elliott> Well, it doesn't need to be raw; I just don't it to decrease the quality of an already low-quality MP3 stream.
23:11:48 <elliott> (Okay, 128 kbps is not really that low-quality as far as streams go.)
23:12:57 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:13:17 <elliott> fizzie: Anyway, standard "but then I'd have to use VLC" response.
23:14:09 <fizzie> There is that, of course. Though with MP3 it sounds possible you could mplayer the file it's saving, as long as there are no "buffering..." issues.
23:14:48 <elliott> Well, yes, but I could just do that with plain mplayer.
23:14:56 <elliott> But the buffering thing soudns annoying, as the stream does buffer occasionally.
23:27:52 -!- MDude has joined.
23:29:28 <oerjan> elliott: all remaining information about Spaz i can find is that it inspired Hanoi Love. :(
23:32:40 <elliott> oerjan: oh, I wasn't going to delete Spaz, don't worry
23:32:46 <elliott> although feel free to add that info to the page
23:32:56 <elliott> what's your source, out of curiosity?
23:34:01 <elliott> oerjan: the reason I edited it was because I was going through http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:ShortPages
23:34:22 <oerjan> i got a bit uneasy about your ADEL deletion description, but i see the sourceforge page doesn't contain anything either.
23:34:40 <elliott> oerjan: I looked through the entire history
23:34:50 <elliott> oerjan: this is what the page looked like
23:34:50 <elliott> The following text is an excerpt from the ADEL README file, which can be found at [http://adel.sf.net|ADEL's SF.net Project Page].
==Contents==
23:35:08 <elliott> the later revisions by the same author jiggled things around to fix the link but added no content.
23:35:13 <elliott> apparently it was a very short excerpt.
23:35:39 <oerjan> well i was talking about content on sourceforge
23:35:48 <elliott> right, I did look at it but it seemed completely unused to me
23:36:12 <elliott> and there's no source repo on the account.
23:36:17 <elliott> also "As of 2011-01-29, this project is no longer under active development."
23:36:36 <elliott> don't worry, I wouldn't delete stuff without discussion if it wasn't completely contentless :P
23:36:55 <elliott> oerjan: btw by "literally an article with a stub mark and nothing else" I mean the content of the article was actually "{{stub}}"
23:37:12 <elliott> oerjan: before that, it was "{{Category:Stubs}}"
23:37:29 <elliott> then before that it was the variations on the "excerpt"
23:38:01 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Sammich oh come on
23:38:16 <elliott> how many awful languages is that guy responsible for
23:38:51 <elliott> hey, r.e.s. still edits on wikipedia! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/R.e.s.
23:39:38 <oerjan> <elliott> don't worry, I wouldn't delete stuff without discussion if it wasn't completely contentless :P <-- good to know :)
23:40:24 * elliott is procrastinating doing something about [[User:Nthern/archive]]
23:40:34 <elliott> which (a) should be on the File Archive, (b) contains several apparent copyvios
23:40:57 <elliott> but (c) contains lots of useful stuff, so I don't want to just outright delete it for copyvio *sigh*
23:45:30 <shachaf> elliott: Did you see the GHC error?
23:47:05 <oerjan> elliott: well he put it there himself...
23:47:35 <elliott> oerjan: yes, but there are derivative works there with other licenses
23:49:39 <elliott> hey oerjan http://ompldr.org/vY3duYg
23:52:03 <elliott> oerjan: that's not a long string of capital As :(
23:52:55 <lambdabot> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA...
23:53:58 <oklodol> the fuck is wrong with that guy :D
23:54:16 <oklodol> well at least he's making basic derivatives rather than bf derivatives
23:56:29 <oerjan> like fancy, but applied to something completely inverted
23:57:00 <elliott> hey oerjan, I created a template for Wayback Machine links that shows the date of retrieval
23:57:06 <elliott> do you wanna help me convert all the existing links :DDDDD
23:58:15 <elliott> Template:3} (from the Wayback Machine; retrieved on Error: invalid time)
23:58:42 <oerjan> a frequent danger of time travel
23:59:28 <Friendship> The question is, was it an invalid time in the first place, or did the Wayback Machine render it invalid?
23:59:34 <Friendship> If the latter, hoo boy, we're in trouble now.