00:00:04 <Vorpal> you can install it, but it isn't by default
00:00:11 <Vorpal> from what I remember, might be wrong
00:01:28 <nortti> zzo38: what kind of computer? own architecture? ttl? transistors? fpga? risc or cisc or oisc?
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00:02:53 <ais523> Vorpal: there's a reason I said XP and Vista!
00:03:18 <zzo38> nortti: I have not yet decided. It will probably use existing parts, such as ARM, DSP, GPU, and whatever. But connecting everything together in different ways which ar designed for security and to prevent malware (malware includes copy protection/DRM); however any user with physical access can open it and override anything by setting jumpers.
00:05:32 <zzo38> I did draw some block diagrams but they do not contain all information.
00:07:03 <nortti> will it run existing OS or are you going to write your own?
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00:07:22 <ais523> zzo38: how do you design a CPU architecture to prevent DRM?
00:07:32 <ais523> actually, anti-malware CPU features normally make DRM easier, rather than harder
00:08:50 <zzo38> ais523: It is not the CPU feature which I intend to change, but the way the CPU is connected to the other components.
00:09:36 <zzo38> nortti: I will write my own OS, probably single-tasking since it is simpler, and have a Forth interpreter built-in. Probably I will have a BASIC interpreter too, which can be compatible with many of the programs in old books.
00:10:43 <zzo38> ais523: And the BIOS design, too. (For example, only the BIOS can access the hard drive and optical drive.)
00:11:22 <zzo38> I will not do the hardware mostly myself; that will be done by other people, according to my advice, and I will write the software myself though.
00:12:04 <zzo38> (I will include full specifications of all hardware and software in the manual so that anyone can build a clone)
00:14:09 <nortti> zzo38: I am thinkig of building my own computer with my own RISC instruction set using FPGAs and using a rewrite of my own os for that platform as its os. It will be 16 or 32bit and will have very simple MMU or no MMU at all
00:14:56 <nortti> When I complete specs I will publish them under CC-BY
00:16:11 <zzo38> nortti: I would like to see something like that too. My problem with using FPGAs is lack of free specification.
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00:17:19 <zzo38> (The other thing I will use to make copy protection and DRM and other malware to be less likely, is trademarks.)
00:17:43 <nortti> how are you going to do that?
00:19:20 <zzo38> If they implement the computer or the program wrong, then I can sue them for trademark violation, unless they remove all of my trademarks from their product so that it cannot claim compatibility. Which also mean if later version change so that their DRM stops working, they cannot sue us either, because they cannot ever claim compatibility
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00:23:09 <nortti> My processor design will be bit strange (No virtual memory, MMU will give process access to liner piece of memory with start of range being logical address 0, 2 priviledge levels and supervisor interrupt) because I am going to design it for my os and not the other way around.
00:23:51 <zzo38> Can you make LLVM compile to it?
00:24:51 <nortti> propably. I have only played around with smallc cross compiler targeting beta version virtual machine
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00:31:40 <elliott> "Some purists will tell you to skip FLACs altogether and just buy WAVs. [...] By buying WAVs, you can avoid the potential data loss incurred when the file is compressed into a FLAC. This data loss is rare, but it happens." --Wired, idiots
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00:35:02 <ais523> elliott: FLAC is lossless, right?
00:35:15 <ais523> by the way, did you point out that data's lost turning sound waves into a WAV? (and did anyone else?)
00:35:26 <ais523> /real/ music purists hire an orchestra to perform for them
00:37:35 <elliott> ais523: Yes, FLAC is lossless.
00:50:14 <elliott> "not to get into a whole thing here, but.... zeno's paradox illustrates how any mathematically system of using "squares" to approximate "curves" _always_ has a loss of fidelity. it simply is not "captured perfectly"." -- someone trying to disprove Nyquist's theorem
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00:55:14 <elliott> They later went on to place "information theory" in scare-quotes.
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01:01:30 <elliott> I can't find the original source of three_cut_limes.jpg :(
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01:06:35 <elliott> HELLO WELCOME TO A LAND OF ETERNAL SUFFERING
01:07:21 <zzo38> Yes, FLAC is lossless; but it is still compressed. If you need WAV you can convert FLAC to WAV and get the same thing as if you just buy WAVs originally.
01:07:56 <zzo38> (Assuming all relevant settings are correct)
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01:09:12 <itidus20> I half read that as I can't quite find the original source of ...
01:09:36 <elliott> The only error there is "quite"
01:09:37 <itidus20> and i thought that would be a ridiculous thing to say
01:10:11 <itidus20> like a postman saying, i couldn't quite find the address
01:11:17 <itidus20> or.. this program is not quite a halting program
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01:14:25 <zzo38> Can you play Double or Nothing in Wheel of Fortune?
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01:57:51 <ais523> observation: webcomics often make the "next" link on the most recent comic a link to the top of the page
01:58:12 <ais523> theory: because it makes something interesting happen so you know you clicked the link, yet it leaves you on the same page so you know there aren't any more
01:58:17 <ais523> question: why not just gray it out?
01:59:16 <elliott> ais523: answer: styling consistency, ease of coding
01:59:28 <elliott> )styling consistency: consider that it is the "a" element that is styled, and often has padding etc.)
01:59:52 <ais523> right, you'd have to have a div that acted like an a
02:00:01 <ais523> hmm, couldn't you make it an a element but just not hyperlink it anywhere?
02:00:10 <elliott> since it's an unsemantic use of a
02:00:19 <elliott> also, you'd still get hover styling
02:00:22 <elliott> which you explicitly wouldn't want
02:00:33 <elliott> because it'd look like a link
02:01:01 <zzo38> <A> is for anchors as well, not only for hyperlinks
02:01:06 <ais523> well, we've already established we're overriding the color
02:01:40 <elliott> zzo38: yep, but the next link wouldn't be an anchor
02:01:43 <ais523> hmm, :visited can only override color nowadays, but :hover can override arbitrary properties (I've seen a site that makes links init-caps when you hover them, and lowercase otherwise)
02:02:00 <elliott> :visited can override more than colour
02:02:04 <ais523> in that case, couldn't you do a pure-CSS analytics thing that figured out where the person was putting their mouse?
02:02:05 <elliott> background, underline, etc.
02:02:18 <elliott> ais523: probably, but what would it give you?
02:02:23 <ais523> elliott: not any more, there were people using :visited to get information about their visitor's previous sites
02:02:35 <elliott> hover over a link on Wikipedia sometime
02:02:52 <ais523> so it's only properties that don't change metrics, I guess
02:02:59 <elliott> well, it's more limited than even that, there's a list
02:03:01 <zzo38> elliott: Using what skin? Probably it depend what skin
02:03:03 <elliott> but it includes more than just colour
02:03:08 <elliott> zzo38: the default, or monobook
02:04:36 <zzo38> I think there should be a mode to tell it not to load any CSS commands that tell it to load a file, at all.
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02:11:05 <elliott> ais523: how's the @ implementation of feather? :P
02:11:29 <monqy> how's the feather imlementation of @!!!
02:11:30 <elliott> Friendship: It's implemented, just waiting on ais523 for Feather.
02:11:40 <elliott> monqy: Um obviously that's what @ is written in.
02:11:45 <elliott> I need the @ implementation of Feather so I can run it.
02:13:52 <elliott> ais523: wow, Esperanza had over 5000 subpages?
02:14:01 * elliott likes to just ask ais523 random questions about Wikipedia.
02:14:45 <ais523> admittedly, that did surprise me when you said it
02:14:49 <ais523> Esperanza really really got out of hand
02:14:58 <elliott> "I think trawling through the deletion log is the only viable method at the moment I can think of, but I don't expect the deletion period to stretch to over two to three days. (~ 5000-10000 records)"
02:15:05 <elliott> I interpreted the number of records as the number of deletion log records
02:15:11 <elliott> but now I just have no idea what it means :)
02:15:32 <ais523> number of edits to esperanza pages before they were deleted
02:15:47 * elliott remembers being vaguely around when Esperanza existed, and then it stopped existing, but I don't remember anything about it.
02:19:25 <ais523> elliott: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Wikipedia:Esperanza is a great but rather long read
02:19:30 <ais523> at least the nomination message
02:20:36 <ais523> the ironic thing is, I'm not sure that an oligarchy is a worse way to run a wiki than the technique used for Wikipedia as a whole
02:21:31 <elliott> ais523: I read the start of that ages ago
02:21:41 <elliott> I just meant I don't remember anything about it from back when it was active, only after-the-fact
02:22:03 <elliott> although I'm still not sure how it managed to be insidious rather than just more pointless bear-ocracy, but that's Wikipedia for you
02:22:03 <ais523> well, it was pretty insular
02:23:22 <ais523> it was basically splitting the community into esperanzans and non-esperanzans
02:25:50 <ais523> the DRV was hilarious, it was about whether the history should be deleted or not
02:26:41 <elliott> yeah, I'm reading that now for some inexplicable reason :P
02:36:11 <elliott> ais523: hey, how do you use IPv4 multicast?
02:36:35 <ais523> I don't know, and am not convinced anyone actually implements it
02:38:13 <ais523> perhaps Wikipedia will know?
02:40:39 <calamari> are there any esolangs that only allow a changing subset of the possible instructions to be used at any one time?
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02:43:46 <elliott> ais523: I read the Wikipedia article but it was long and boring
02:44:34 <ais523> calamari: for a literal "at any one time" that tracks realtime, TMMDLPTOELPAITAFNFAL
02:44:37 <ais523> (I /think/ that's the name)
02:45:06 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/TMMLPTEALPAITAFNFAL
02:45:09 <calamari> well I was being intentionally vague because I figured there might be multiple ways that someone would do it
02:45:47 <ais523> added a D where there shouldn't be one, added an O where there shouldn't be one, missed an A
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02:46:03 <ais523> I think this is an acceptable amount of misrememberance of such a ridiculous name
02:47:12 <calamari> maybe something like a hunt the wumpus map.. where depending on the instruction used, it moves you to a new room and that gives the new possibilities for that room
02:47:47 <ais523> calamari: oh, for a language that works like /that/, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Taxi, but it's not quite what you're describing
02:50:05 <elliott> calamari: Weird? or Whirl, I forget
02:50:40 <ais523> elliott: wierd is BF-like and 2D, IIRC
02:50:58 <ais523> you're thinking of Whirl, but that's pretty much just an encoding for a BF-like language in terms of 0 and 1
02:51:52 <elliott> well, it was some kind of instructions-change-future-ones things
02:54:09 <elliott> ais523: hey, is there any way to preview some edits to a page without all the editing tools around it? (MediaWiki)
02:54:15 <elliott> "Remember that this is only a preview; your changes have not yet been saved!" etc.
02:54:30 <ais523> elliott: no built-in way, I think
02:54:39 <ais523> you could probably rig something up with JavaScript
02:55:00 * elliott just deletes the chrome elements in the inspector
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02:56:39 <calamari> ais523: yep whirl seems the closest.. not a very interesting implementation, but basically it
02:57:01 <ais523> the problem with whirl is that there's no penalty for changing
02:57:34 <calamari> you mean like the running out of gas thing with taxi?
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03:12:01 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
03:12:06 <elliott> "I am working on the low-level complicated (almost esoteric) Basic Input/Output Commander"
03:12:09 <lambdabot> elliott said 7h 47m 25s ago: [2007] <oerjan> by using the FingerTree module which implements lazily concatenated sequences
03:12:09 <lambdabot> elliott asked 7h 47m 9s ago: are you sure? "(it is the same as Data.Sequence, but less restricted)" implies not, since Seq is strict
03:12:17 <elliott> I wonder what compels people to put languages they say are non-esoteric on the esoteric prorgamming languages wiki.
03:12:32 <elliott> <elliott> "I am working on the low-level complicated (almost esoteric) Basic Input/Output Commander"
03:13:01 <Sgeo_> Who doesn't love Taxi?
03:13:19 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: what: not found
03:13:27 <Sgeo_> Taxi is THE BEST programming language.
03:13:34 <oerjan> elliott: i think i may have discovered that later. i assume this is about dupdog, and i've been thinking something simpler rope-like might work better.
03:14:07 <elliott> oerjan: yeah, it was dupdog
03:14:30 <elliott> you really want something with really-O(1) reversing and self-concatenation
03:14:44 <oerjan> elliott: for once it's actually morning in most senses for me.
03:16:29 <elliott> oerjan: btw the sitenotice died. rip.
03:16:50 <oerjan> hm i did not notice it ;)
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03:30:15 <pikhq_> Aaaand BSNES hits 100% compatibility.
03:31:28 <Friendship> "runs every /official/ game ever released"
03:31:35 <elliott> pikhq_: wait, does this include satellaview?
03:31:37 <Friendship> So, doesn't run Super Noah's Ark Blaster 3D
03:31:55 <elliott> Friendship: There's no possible way it could run every unofficial game, since tons of them are modern hacks that only work on ZSNES and not a real NES :P
03:32:01 <pikhq_> Friendship: Actually, pretty sure it ought to. What it won't run are many, many ROM hacks.
03:32:22 <pikhq_> And, yes, many ROM hacks don't work on real hardware.
03:33:24 <zzo38> NES is different from SNES so NES emulation work better and modern homebrew softwares for NES are usually tested both on emulators and on the real hardware.
03:34:35 <Friendship> Yes yes, obviously there are things that work on emulators and not real SNESes which it shouldn't run.
03:34:52 <Friendship> There are so many bible games it can't (but probably can) run!
03:37:22 <Friendship> Oh, I didn't realize that bsnes covered NES and GBC too.
03:40:47 <pikhq_> Friendship: Yeah, but it doesn't have full compatibility with those.
03:41:04 <pikhq_> That was just done by byuu for kicks.
03:41:08 <Friendship> pikhq_: The page doesn't indicate that ;)
03:41:25 <pikhq_> I'd imagine he'll be working on those a bit more now.
03:41:50 <pikhq_> Still, much less necessary; IIRC, Nestopia does NES perfectly, and Gambatte does GBC perfectly.
03:43:52 <pikhq_> Also, that Super Noah's Ark Blaster 3D is the only real notable non-licensed game for the SNES.
03:45:37 <Friendship> SO, a blogger for the entirely-incomprehensible blog championofbirds.com emailed me asking me if he could give an interview for the nonsense blog. On the advise of some friends, I decided it would be amusing to accept, if only to see WTF they'd ask. Well, here's the list of questions: http://sprunge.us/bYQT
03:46:35 <elliott> I love the "Shoot Yourself" song, can you tell us about the inspiration for that jingle?
03:46:57 <Friendship> He loves it, but not enough to remember its name.
03:47:25 <elliott> If we give you a hat, will you take a picture of a look that kills with the hat on?
03:47:51 <Friendship> Hey, if I can extort a hat out of random internet people, I'm not going to refuse!
03:48:29 <shachaf> elliott: Remember when everybody said "multimedia"?
03:49:17 <pikhq_> shachaf: Before his time.
03:49:20 <shachaf> A *single* morse code only.
03:50:23 <pikhq_> elliott: You were born, what, 96?
03:50:25 <oerjan> "What's the gnarliest disease or injury you've ever had?" looks like a shoe-in for a certain foot picture which i have managed to avoid
03:50:41 <elliott> Friendship: YES link the foot.
03:50:45 <oerjan> wait, that's shoo-in, isn't it
03:50:46 <Friendship> oerjan: OH MAN I didn't even think of that also the phrase is "shoo-in"
03:50:50 <pikhq_> shachaf: Okay. So, he would've been 5 in 2000.
03:51:03 <Friendship> Although "shoe-in" makes just as much sense by way of "foot in the door," as elliott points out.
03:51:08 <ion> foot-in-mouth disease
03:51:12 <elliott> Friendship: fsvo point out
03:51:14 * shachaf wasn't on the 'net at 5. :-(
03:51:37 <zzo38> Do you think timestamps ought to be signed or unsigned? (In my opinion, they should be unsigned if 32-bits and signed if 64-bits.)
03:51:53 <pikhq_> Then, not many people were in 1995.
03:52:33 * shachaf was barely on the 'net at 2000.
03:52:40 <pikhq_> Think my grandmother was, though...
03:52:51 <pikhq_> Yeah, she would've been by then.
03:53:39 * shachaf also didn't really speak English in 2000.
03:53:43 <ion> zzo38: Signed and of arbitrary size.
03:54:28 <shachaf> The epoch should be in 2012.
03:54:36 <shachaf> Time doesn't really count before there.
03:55:06 * oerjan was on the net in 1992 or was it 1991 neener neener
03:55:38 <zzo38> ion: I think signed 64-bits is sufficient for nearly all uses.
03:56:01 <elliott> that's what they always say
03:56:35 <shachaf> Man, 1992 was a good year.
03:56:44 <zzo38> (In the few cases which it would be insufficient, you can use 128-bits or bignums)
03:56:53 <shachaf> Other than the oerjanember thing.
03:57:25 <pikhq_> I didn't even speak English in 1991.
03:57:39 <pikhq_> (... or any other language)
03:58:35 <shachaf> It is especially difficult to speak a language before you've been born.
03:58:49 <shachaf> It's also pretty tricky after.
03:58:56 <elliott> how is shachaf younger than pikhq
03:59:15 <shachaf> I make no guarantees about being younger than pikhq.
04:00:06 <Friendship> I ... seem to be second oldest in this particular group X_X
04:00:34 * pikhq_ was born March 23, 1990. Take that as thou wilt
04:02:36 * Friendship grabs oerjan's cane and shakes it at all you whippersnappers.
04:03:22 * shachaf is 28 according to elliott.
04:03:38 <ion> Get off my lawn.
04:03:52 <pikhq_> elliott: GEROFF OUR LAWNS
04:04:17 <shachaf> pikhq_: Who knows about reality?
04:04:22 * ion is 28 according to zzo38’s time type.
04:04:46 <shachaf> The World According to Elliott sounds like a dangerous place.
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04:41:59 <zzo38> ion: How does that work, exactly?
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05:17:11 <tswett> You know what. I'm tired of the spec for BBBBBBBBBBBBBB not existing.
05:17:17 <tswett> Someone write it please. That's an order. Thank you.
05:18:30 <Sgeo_> tswett, you should use GoogleChrome OS X as your primary Linux distro.
05:18:41 <Sgeo_> http://susestudio.com/a/LkcUZJ/googlechrome-os-x
05:19:01 <tswett> Oh god it's that horrible trademark violation.
05:19:14 <tswett> IT WILL NOT ESCAPE MY WRATH
05:20:04 <zzo38> tswett: Then you write it please.
05:20:14 <zzo38> (I mean the BBBBBBBBBBBBBB)
05:20:26 <tswett> I order myself not to do it. So there.
05:20:52 <elliott> <tswett> You know what. I'm tired of the spec for BBBBBBBBBBBBBB not existing.
05:21:15 <tswett> It's not very accurate.
05:22:42 <monqy> the qs are bs but they fell a hinge loose
05:23:30 <tswett> No, it's BBBBBBBBBBBBB, not BBBBBBBBBBB.
05:23:46 <tswett> How come those look like they differ by only one or two characters when they actually differ by three...
05:23:55 <monqy> whats qqqqqqqqqqqqq
05:23:57 <tswett> > length "BBBBBBBBBBBBB" - length "BBBBBBBBBBB"
05:24:24 <tswett> But seriously, it's BBBBBBBBBBBBBB, not BBBBBBBBBBBBB or BBBBBBBBBBB.
05:24:57 <tswett> And. BBBBBBBBBBBBBB is a cellular automaton where each cell is in one of five states at any given time.
05:25:21 <monqy> im excited. qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq excites me.
05:26:01 <tswett> The inactive states are ' ', '.', and '_'; the active states are '#' and '@'. ' ' cannot transition to any other state; '.' can only transition to '#' and vice versa; and '_' can only transition to '@' and vice versa.
05:28:17 <tswett> If a cell is '.' or '#' at time n, then it is active at time n+1 if and only if (it was active at time n-1 XOR an odd number of its neighbors are active at time n) is true.
05:28:38 <tswett> For '_' and '@', likewise, except s/an odd number of/at least one of/.
05:28:54 <elliott> you only get the previous state
05:29:06 <tswett> Fine. There are nine states.
05:29:35 <tswett> Oh, come on. WireWorld had three states; BBBBBBBBBBBBBB has only nine.
05:29:36 <monqy> 9 is a lot of states, man
05:29:44 <tswett> Nine is less than three, so BBBBBBBBBBBBBB is better than WW.
05:30:40 <Sgeo_> Let's see if Chrome OS Linux is any better.
05:30:51 <tswett> By the way, it stands for... "Benightment Bicentennial Blastocyte Big Brother
05:31:03 <monqy> there is no e in qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq
05:32:06 <tswett> "Benightment Bicentennial Blastocyte Big Brother Bearableness Barristering Bacteremic Benzylic Blaze Bilobate Beforehand Bardlike Bimedian".
05:33:04 <tswett> Wait, no. It's not an acronym. It's actually a spelling of the first two bars of the song "Three in the Morning (RJ's I Can Barely Sleep In This Casino Remix)".
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05:33:41 <Sgeo_> Oh look, Chrome OS Linux actually uses Chrom(ium)
05:33:52 <Sgeo_> As opposed to doing something like defaulting with Firefox.
05:34:03 <Sgeo_> I may need to go to the hospital.
05:34:17 <monqy> maybe you should see a doctor about that
05:35:13 <tswett> Sgeo_: say, can you tell me if there's ever an updotch?
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05:54:45 <elliott> ais523: have you ever created an esolang that destroyed the world
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05:55:12 <shachaf> elliott: Esolangs cannot exist in a vacuum.
05:55:40 <ais523> elliott: I don't think so
05:55:47 <ais523> do you think the world still exists?
05:56:31 <shachaf> ais523: Why does elliott hate me?
05:56:51 <ais523> shachaf: you're insufficiently purely functional
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05:57:16 <Sgeo_> Why does CL get called functional?
05:57:23 <elliott> ais523: Well, the International Earth-Destruction Advisory Board lists the current geocide count at 1, so I'm forced to conclude that the world has been destroyed at least once.
05:57:30 <shachaf> I knew I shouldn't have taken those pills.
05:57:37 <ais523> Sgeo_: it has first-class functions
05:57:43 <elliott> In September 2008, apparently.
05:57:50 <elliott> Did you invent any esolangs in September 2008?
05:58:09 <ais523> not sure, you could check Category:2008 for mine
05:58:12 <Sgeo_> Surely Feather was invented at all points in history, so yes.
05:58:38 <elliott> ais523: "Probably"? You don't have that many esolangs.
05:58:59 <shachaf> Little known fact: ais523 is the pseudonym of famous esolang inventor ais524.
05:59:03 <ais523> Sgeo_: no, only all points after it was originally invented
05:59:42 <ais523> elliott: I haven't worked on it for ages
05:59:44 <ais523> and don't plan to in the near future
05:59:49 <oerjan> <Sgeo_> Why does CL get called functional? <-- it's sort of like how you call ancient greece democratic.
06:00:27 <elliott> `addquote <Sgeo_> Why does CL get called functional? <oerjan> it's sort of like how you call ancient greece democratic.
06:00:31 <HackEgo> 819) <Sgeo_> Why does CL get called functional? <oerjan> it's sort of like how you call ancient greece democratic.
06:00:41 <HackEgo> 86) <virtuhird> Sgeo_: Gregorr: and someone could, by mistake, rewrite psox to be a weak erection if it is... A filename. \ 118) <pikhq> And... WTF is it doing. <pikhq> :( <Sgeo_> Is it sexing? \ 335) <Sgeo_> I think she either likes me, is neutral towards me, or dislikes me \ 425) <Sgeo_> "system is fairly sane <Sgeo_> <elliott> imagine if the roomba was called the Robotic Magic Vacuum <Sgeo_> <elliott> would you
06:00:59 <oerjan> Sgeo_: well ok not _all_ of ancient greece, but more than athens
06:01:09 <Sgeo_> `pastequotes Sgeo_
06:01:12 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.32065
06:02:34 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.25347
06:02:56 <shachaf> elliott: 2008 was 4 years ago. :-(
06:03:26 <monqy> 2008 was 4 years ago :-)
06:03:44 <monqy> 2008 was a bad year and I'm glad it was 4 years ago. if only it was more than 4 years ago :-)
06:05:16 <elliott> monqy: waht was abd about 2008
06:05:48 <monqy> i don't remember i try to forget
06:08:49 <elliott> (that is the symbol of death)
06:20:32 <shachaf> monqy: I prefer "specieste"
06:20:56 <monqy> monqy "not a human, rip"
06:21:14 <shachaf> I always thought monqy was a monqy.
06:21:27 <monqy> who would ever think otherwise
06:21:37 <Sgeo_> I say that exact same line in #jesus and someone goes off on how "should" is sin.
06:21:41 <monqy> I'll have his/her/its head/head-analogue/help
06:21:49 <shachaf> Does monqy have three heads.
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06:25:09 <elliott> Sgeo_: why do you talk to #jesus people
06:25:11 <monqy> 1.5 is enough almost for me
06:25:15 <elliott> they are not yoru friendsnds
06:25:23 <monqy> sgeo still jesuses?
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06:42:48 <ais523> elliott: hey, you edited Burn, this means you need to figure out how it works
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06:44:11 <elliott> find more programs or shit
06:45:18 <ais523> and I know I only ever wrote one
06:45:44 <elliott> find some notes on it or something :P
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06:54:14 <zzo38> "VisualOnly: when set, tells the game engine that this object is there purely for the players enjoyment (visually) and has NO effect on the other objects on the playfield. An object with this flag set will still receive most of the normal messages ... This flag should ONLY be set by an object when it TRULY will never again have any effect upon any other objects on the playfield. Otherwise, the replay feature of Mesh will be broken. ..."
06:55:38 <zzo38> This isn't true; I have tested it. (In my own clone Hmeif, I will probably call it something else; it won't implement animations and stuff that Kaser's engine does, so "VisualOnly" isn't a good name for it)
06:56:06 <zzo38> And there are other uses for such a thing rather than only display.
06:57:15 <itidus21> zzo38: pay me and i will get drunk and acquianted with whores. pay me not and i shall slumber and brew mead from the potatos i buried in my garden.. alas i don't know how you can garner my help
06:57:56 <zzo38> itidus21: Unless I intend to purchase something from you, I do not intend to pay you.
06:59:33 <itidus21> but what are you describing just now?
06:59:53 * itidus21 . o O ( idiot tidus just google the quote )
07:00:11 <zzo38> As far as I know it isn't a webpage; I found the text in a Windows help file.
07:00:20 <zzo38> (The old non-HTML style)
07:01:55 <zzo38> In the Mesh engine, animation can break replayability, and object references are simply machine pointers (the only datatype is unsigned 32-bit integers) so this can cause GPF as well. I intend Hmeif to do differently; being cross-platform, and having four datatypes instead of just one.
07:02:30 <zzo38> * 32-bit unsigned integer * class ID * message ID * object reference
07:03:09 <zzo38> (In level editor, there shall be no "object reference" type; instead there is "string" type, which is converted to the 32-bit unsigned integer type at runtime.)
07:03:27 <itidus21> wow i see your levels on the page
07:03:44 <zzo38> Those aren't very good I make new levels and pieces is better.
07:04:26 <zzo38> I did look at the file and the level format seems easy enough to convert to my new program. Classes could be partially converted using the exported ASCII format.
07:05:15 <itidus21> do you think the interesting-ness of a game engine's level format is inverse to the level of documentation of said format?
07:05:26 <zzo38> I intend to improve some things, such as supporting global functions; and deliberately remove some things, such as Animate() and Level and so on.
07:05:47 <zzo38> itidus21: I don't know. But I do know the Mesh engine documentation does contain some errors and I know how they really work.
07:06:06 <itidus21> like if the documentation is too thorough and spoon-fed then the whole exercize of reading it may seem boring
07:08:01 <zzo38> My own one will be licensed under GPL and written in CWEB, so you can refer to the printout of the program to understand the internal code structure. (Mesh engine's documentation of internal code structure is not as well written as TeX's internal code documentation, for instance)
07:11:15 <zzo38> There are other strange things in the compiler: Things such as "MsgFrom.Misc3" is considered a read-only variable even though it isn't; and "Move(Self, DirNW)" and so on seems to compile to a single instruction which acts differently than "Move(Self, x)" does (the former *adds* the Strength to the Inertia instead of setting the Inertia to the Strength).
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07:39:36 <oerjan> yay my automatic (finite cell) bf to qdeql translator seems to be working
07:39:56 <oerjan> well on the examples i already constructed by hand, anyway
07:40:31 <oerjan> *finite number of cells
07:40:44 <oerjan> the cells themselves are unbounded, that's sort of the point
07:43:43 <oerjan> (http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/qdeql/BFQdeql.hs is the program so far)
07:45:08 <oerjan> (http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/qdeql/ contains some example output (starting with gen))
07:54:51 <fizzie> You should try to get some sort of OerjansTerriblePuns GHC extension done.
07:58:04 <fizzie> NamedFieldPuns. There's precedent.
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09:20:23 <zzo38> The Mesh engine says nothing about changing the Inertia during a move, but it does work. The documentation also says the bit 15 of the return value of MSG_HIT and MSG_HITBY are "reserved, must be set to 0" but actually it does have a meaning, which is to retry the move (but maybe not for diagonal moves).
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09:42:04 <itidus20> zzo38: Is Hmeif something you're making similar to mesh?
09:43:33 <itidus20> ok you did say above its a clone... but anyway.. ---
09:44:54 <zzo38> Yes, something similar. Using SDL. And most of the same features, but with a few things added and a few things removed.
09:48:27 <zzo38> But I intend nearly all existing Hero Mesh puzzles (except ones breaking replayability) to work once they have been converted. (The Hero Mesh level format looks simple enough that I can convert it, although it does some things such as store numbers longer than it needs to.)
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09:58:39 <ais523> btw, I disagree with the topic, in that I believe a language can be sub-TC but still useful
10:01:34 <kmc> yes, for example Python with a rule that no program can run more than 10 years would still be a useful language
10:02:48 <itidus20> does useful mean that you can produce mathematical proofs with it? :D
10:03:59 <itidus20> for example.. in brainfuck.. you could write hello world with just + and .
10:04:32 <ais523> useful means it has a use
10:04:45 <ais523> e.g. +. BF is inferior in pretty much every way to, say, uuencoded text
10:04:58 <ais523> which means that it's not that useful
10:05:37 <itidus20> its so easy to think of useless things
10:06:20 <kmc> of course in reality our programs run on machines with finite storage
10:06:55 <itidus20> but it is difficult to think of things which aren't boring
10:07:12 <kmc> so each language implementation is not turing complete, even if the abstract languages are
10:07:52 <itidus20> like a dinosaur with a head, a cat with a crayon, an X with a Y, a cat with a cat, a face with a mole.. detonates
10:08:02 <shachaf> The abstract language C isn't Turing-complete, is it?
10:13:37 <Sgeo_> destructuring-case makes me feel less sad about investigating Common Lisp
10:14:44 <ais523> shachaf: I think it's a push-down automaton, and TC if you're allowed to use files
10:15:33 <ais523> (push-down automaton can be done using register auto variables in a recursive function which contains no non-register auto variables or non-register parameters; because you can't take a pointer to them, there's nothing preventing you having an infinite number of stack frames)
10:15:34 <shachaf> ais523: There's still a maximum path length, isn't there?
10:15:44 <ais523> you can store infinite data in one file
10:16:11 <shachaf> Oh, by using relative seeks.
10:16:21 <ais523> or just absolute seeks to 0 each time
10:16:30 <itidus20> i can't even comprehend how everyone here knows so much about these things
10:16:33 <ais523> hmm, not sure about that one, actually
10:16:40 <ais523> might be worth creating a simple esolang to test that
10:16:44 <itidus20> i mean literally can't fathom it..
10:17:22 <ais523> let's make it a BF derivative to annoy Phantom_Hoover
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10:17:34 <fizzie> ais523: I don't think anyone really "agrees" with the topic; that's why it is the topic.
10:17:36 <ais523> let's see… identical to BF, apart from instead of moving one space left, < moves to the start of the tape
10:17:46 <itidus20> how does one organize ones thoughts in such a way as to learn so effectively
10:17:59 <ais523> itidus20: have you ever tried to write esoprograms?
10:18:03 <ais523> not languages, programs in them
10:18:53 <itidus20> no and neither. but uhhh maybe i should say it this way.. you're knowledgable in some field
10:19:01 <itidus20> maybe not from your perspective...
10:19:18 <itidus20> but it is as if you are rich with knowledge of these things
10:20:00 <itidus20> as if you collect these facts as readily as X collects a lot of Y
10:20:27 <itidus20> i guess the other question is have you plateud?
10:20:36 <ais523> anyway, I find esoprogramming more useful for learning about esolangs than esolang development
10:20:46 <itidus20> has everyone here more or less reached a plateau... or is it all very vital and healthy
10:21:54 <ais523> I have new insights less often than I used to
10:22:00 <ais523> but it sill happens occasionally
10:22:58 <ais523> I think back-to-start-< BF is TC, actually; you can store two counters in unary on the tape with 1s, separated by a 0, and increment, decrement, and zero-test them independently
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10:23:46 <itidus20> not trying to be depressing. i guess im looking for the grim reality side of things.. since nothing is all ideal and perfect all of the time
10:25:28 <itidus20> among some of my favorite plans is a plan to create my own construced natural language and use it to think to myself
10:26:16 <ais523> that's quite ambitious
10:26:21 <itidus20> when i think about this it occurs to me that no matter what natural language i think up.. it will still be possible for me to convert it back to english
10:26:21 <ais523> are you sure you think in a language at all, though
10:26:32 <ais523> I'm pretty certain I don't think in English
10:26:38 <ais523> I can convert my thoughts into English, e.g. to type them
10:26:57 <ais523> but occasionally I'll start writing a sentence and then realise I don't know all the words in it in English, and get stuck
10:27:10 <itidus20> so.. it all seems pointless if all natural languages are isomorphic
10:27:22 <fizzie> ais523: How do you decrement the counter?
10:27:43 <ais523> [>]+>-[>]- for the first counter
10:27:49 <ais523> [>]>[>]- for the second counter
10:28:02 <ais523> (this is starting from the first cell, obviously)
10:28:17 <ais523> no, that makes no sense
10:28:18 <itidus20> but... at the same time i am incredibly biased about english since i have never known any other language.
10:28:45 <itidus20> the whole point is to become more powerful via a new language
10:28:55 <fizzie> ais523: When you've [>]'d to the separating zero, it sounds like it'd be slightly too late to decrement any more.
10:28:56 <ais523> fizzie: I guess you need three cuonters
10:29:11 <ais523> and you always increment at the end and decrement at the start
10:29:40 <itidus20> the point of making my own language is similar to how nostalgia works
10:29:49 <ais523> then, you have (increment first+decrement second), (increment second+decrement third), (increment third)
10:29:55 <ais523> which gives you complete control over the second and third counters
10:30:03 <ais523> and the first is just junk
10:30:12 <itidus20> like.. if some kid decided to simulate table tennis today and made pong.. noone would care.. it wouldn't be a big seller
10:30:34 <itidus20> but the nostalgic and historic value attached to pong encourages people to clone it again and again
10:30:54 <ais523> and it still isn't a big seller
10:31:11 <itidus20> and in this way... if i create my own conlang... it will have value for me because i made it
10:31:38 <itidus20> even though it wouldn't be better than a conlang anyone else made
10:38:31 <itidus20> all in all i have no idea what avenues it could open up for my thinking
10:38:52 <ais523> hey, anyone here know how you write a literal hyphen in math mode in LaTeX?
10:38:56 <ais523> or even a literal n-dash would be good
10:39:01 <ais523> neither \- nor -- works
10:40:16 <fizzie> You can put any "regular text" in an \mbox{} if that's what you want.
10:40:25 <fizzie> It'll be typeset by the "surrounding text" font and so on.
10:40:34 <ais523> I want it inside a mathsf, really
10:40:41 <ais523> textsf, sadly, is not a text-mode version of mathsf
10:41:04 <ais523> and all the predecessor papers have been naughty and used mathsf for things that are supposed to be interpreted as a single word, not a long multiplication
10:42:22 <ais523> oh wow, I found it with a search, it's nontrivial
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10:43:24 <ais523> you have to define an escaped-hyphen thing yourself
10:43:43 <ais523> http://www.logic.at/staff/salzer/etc/mhyphen/ recommends \mathchardef\mhyphen="2D (and it seems to work)
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10:44:38 <fizzie> Amsmath also has a \text{x} that works in math mode and adjusts at least the font size, not sure if it adjusts the family though.
10:46:13 <fizzie> Can't say I can really tell the difference in a hyphen.
10:46:31 <fizzie> A dash is a dash is a dash.
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13:17:40 * Phantom_Hoover is getting very sceptical of lutusp's views on economics.
13:21:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Like, he seems to think that if you don't have enough capital to hand to pay off any conceivable loss you're living beyond your means.
13:32:52 <fizzie> This sounds vaguely related to the insurance-is-a-lie thing.
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13:52:03 <oerjan> total risk avoidance is not an evolutionary optimal strategy
13:53:44 <Phantom_Hoover> He keeps going on about self-insurance, which seems to be simply hanging onto the money and investing it.
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16:42:31 <lambdabot> [45,32,8211,32,8212,32,8211,32,45]
16:43:44 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: gsi-ffs.scm just has a tendency to give procedures meaningful, spelled out, names, unlike " fnord)"
16:44:46 <oerjan> `addquote <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: gsi-ffs.scm just has a tendency to give procedures meaningful, spelled out, names, unlike " fnord)"
16:44:46 <fungot> oerjan: but i already looked at museme?
16:44:54 <HackEgo> 820) <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: gsi-ffs.scm just has a tendency to give procedures meaningful, spelled out, names, unlike " fnord)"
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17:14:31 <fungot> 45 32 226 128 147 32 226 128 148 32 226 128 147 32 45
17:14:44 <fizzie> It doesn't do multibytes, though.
17:14:58 <fizzie> Or, rather, doesn't convert them to codepoints like that. Of course it "does" them.
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17:16:21 <fizzie> The decimal-input in ^chr isn't exactly very resilient.
17:19:48 <fungot> ,[>[->+10<]>[-<+>]<2-48[>+<-],]>.
17:20:31 <fizzie> The usual *= 10, += x-48 style thing.
17:20:37 -!- Friendship has set topic: What kind of juice do you like? What do you do while you drink juice? | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/ has moved servers!.
17:23:36 <fizzie> Juice: http://p.zem.fi/vjrz
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17:59:26 <elliott_> 10:17:34: <fizzie> ais523: I don't think anyone really "agrees" with the topic; that's why it is the topic.
17:59:31 <elliott_> fizzie: Thank you, you took the words right out of my mouth
18:00:38 <mroman> I drink juice while drinking juice.
18:00:44 <mroman> Because I like tautologies.
18:01:10 <elliott_> 10:18:53: <itidus20> no and neither. but uhhh maybe i should say it this way.. you're knowledgable in some field
18:01:10 <elliott_> 10:19:01: <itidus20> maybe not from your perspective...
18:01:10 <elliott_> 10:19:18: <itidus20> but it is as if you are rich with knowledge of these things
18:01:10 <elliott_> 10:20:00: <itidus20> as if you collect these facts as readily as X collects a lot of Y
18:01:16 <elliott_> trying to fathom how ais523 said yes to a statement this meaningless
18:02:45 <itidus21> i ranted in another room.. what someone finally said was
18:02:52 <itidus21> <Jessicatz> you should stop talking out of your arse
18:02:52 <itidus21> <Jessicatz> and do something productive instea
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18:04:21 <elliott_> i don't suppose you plan to follow this advice
18:04:33 <itidus21> punktuashun: Just like Buddha, or Pacman, or facebook, or Coke? Itidus... seriously...
18:04:33 <itidus21> punktuashun: You need to go out and get some fresh air.
18:05:01 <elliott_> I am happy I did not see the nonsense that preceded that.
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18:06:39 <elliott_> 10:31:11: <itidus20> and in this way... if i create my own conlang... it will have value for me because i made it
18:06:39 <elliott_> 10:31:38: <itidus20> even though it wouldn't be better than a conlang anyone else made
18:06:39 <elliott_> 10:38:31: <itidus20> all in all i have no idea what avenues it could open up for my thinking
18:06:45 <elliott_> itidus21: the sapir-whorf hypothesis is discredited.
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18:09:47 <itidus21> well i won't beat around the bush.. i'll posit
18:13:07 <itidus21> i admit that i and probably most people don't expect any changes by learning a second or additional common natural language.. and it can't be denied that hyperpolyglots don't seem to be making much noise about the wonders of language learning.
18:17:41 <itidus21> and with the sapir whorf hypothesis discredited i suppose this also extends to new languages like esperanto, lojban and toki pona.. but i still think there is some hope of avoiding trauma associated with certain words by having a new set of words perhaps representing a different culture or philosophy.. or perhaps.. as a countering to marketing tactics which emphasise the power of words and repetition
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18:18:47 <elliott_> Oh god, that Haskell-vs-Python post is on proggit again.
18:19:22 <itidus21> so basically.. i am trying to clean the words in my head
18:20:16 <calamari> I'm curious, has anyone here done scientific computing? If so, what programming areas are used?
18:20:55 <itidus21> now if associations are based on concepts rather than the words that describe concepts then i would be royally screwed from the beginning of this plan
18:22:50 <elliott_> calamari: Ask fizzie, he's a fake scientist.
18:24:00 <itidus21> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Self-efficacy&diff=prev&oldid=263751504#Citation_cleanup_needed :-P
18:24:42 <itidus21> uhmm in the bottom section there it says, Erased [citation needed]; self-explanatory in nature. Citation logically needed due to the fact that 'Research shows' precedes the statement. Cleanup in this context and others would make a much cleaner page.
18:26:48 <itidus21> so someone erased a citation needed and prefixed the sentence with "Research shows" and thought they could get away with it. wikispotting is fun
18:28:09 <fizzie> calamari: Speech recognition is a well-established field of fake science.
18:29:11 <fizzie> I'm not entirely sure what "area" means there, though.
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18:33:54 <HackEgo> Maybach: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
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18:35:00 <itidus21> as in "which programming categories are used?"
18:35:55 <itidus21> to which i would guess all of them...
18:36:17 <itidus21> but i am not qualified to say anything about computers honestly
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18:37:14 <fizzie> elliott_: One more point for your accurate welcomings, I guess.
18:38:12 <elliott_> I like how they all leave before we can
18:38:17 <HackEgo> This channel is about programming -- for the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.
18:39:31 <elliott_> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9606942/good-sound-libraries Hypothesis: No question tagged [python] [ruby] [node.js] [haskell] is good.
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18:42:37 <olsner> I used fftw to make a spectrum analyzer in haskell once, that's probably very nearly the thing he asks for
18:43:09 <olsner> is there a binding for that or did I have to make one?
18:44:52 <fizzie> I would certainly guesstimate there is.
18:45:02 <fizzie> I mean, it's the FFT library.
18:45:46 <fizzie> Anyway, I'm still unsure what the question was about; languages, libraries, "platforms", whatnot.
18:46:13 <fizzie> But MATLAB is "the language of technical computing", that's what all their promotional literature says.
18:46:14 <olsner> fizzie: it's about node.js
18:46:24 <elliott_> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/fft http://hackage.haskell.org/package/vector-fftw
18:46:53 <fizzie> olsner: JAVASCRIPT on the SERVER.
18:47:28 <elliott_> fizzie: Remember when that was all "the rage" circa early 2000s?
18:47:54 <fizzie> No. But I've heard of Node.js, so it must be pretty popular.
18:48:52 <elliott_> No, no, that's JavaScript-on-the-server 2.0.
18:49:08 <fizzie> Oh? Well, maybe it was.
18:49:22 <fizzie> I head Node.js is all V8.
18:53:18 <elliott_> _ __, _ _ __, _ _ __| | | __, _|_ ,_ _ __|
18:53:18 <elliott_> |/ \_/ | | / |/ | / | / |/ | / | |/ \ / | | / | |/ / |
18:53:18 <elliott_> |__/ \_/|_/|_/ | |_/ \_/|_/ | |_/\_/|_/ | |_/\_/|_/|_/ |_/|__/\_/|_/
18:54:15 <fizzie> ▄ ▄ ▝ ▄ ▄ ▄ ▌ ▌ ▄ ▟▖▖▖▗ ▌
18:54:15 <fizzie> ▙▘▄▌▐ ▌▌ ▄▌▌▌▞▌ ▛▖▄▌▐ ▛ ▛▘▞▌
18:54:15 <fizzie> ▌ ▀▘▝ ▘▘ ▀▘▘▘▝▘ ▘▘▀▘ ▘▘ ▝▘▝▘
18:54:24 <fizzie> (I had the terminal still open.)
18:56:49 <elliott_> Oh no, one of the lines got lost.
18:58:31 <olsner> ASP had javascript as an option :)
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18:58:47 <fizzie> olsner: JScript, I think.
18:59:09 <elliott_> Yes. It's like JavaScript, except nobody is allowed to expect them to follow the standards.
18:59:34 <fizzie> And Java six-I-mean-one-point-six-I-mean-what-do-I-mean? brought a standard "javax.script" built on Rhino or something.
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19:01:44 <elliott_> You can get in... but you can't get out.
19:02:07 <fizzie> Nobody can hear your scream... in the ANALOG HOLE.
19:04:16 <elliott_> Have I mentioned that CSS sucks?
19:09:40 <Sgeo_> What doesn't suck/
19:09:50 <Sgeo_> Although things that are widely used standards may suck more.
19:10:03 <Sgeo_> And then people actually have to deal with the suck, rather than walk away from the suck.
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19:25:14 <Friendship> <fizzie> 19:02:07> Nobody can hear your scream... in the ANALOG HOLE.
19:25:27 <Friendship> Nobody can year your scream... in your MATRIX OF SOLIDITY.
19:25:38 <fizzie> I don't think screams are yeared.
19:30:48 -!- HalfTauRSquared has changed nick to pir^2.
19:32:55 <elliott_> Heyyyyy guess who just rewrote the http://esolangs.org/wiki//// spec????
19:34:25 <calamari> fizzie: basically I'm curious what types of programming skills would be emphasized. for example networking, concurrency (and maybe subcategories of these), etc
19:34:52 <itidus21> calamari: i was just being a troll before,, i apologize
19:34:53 <pir^2> but... http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=///&oldid=3704
19:35:43 <calamari> itidus21, no apology necessary :)
19:36:29 <pir^2> how did you generate the quine?
19:36:43 <itidus21> i just happened to be selecting music for my winamp just now and stumbled upon loituma folder.. and i can't help feel uplifted
19:36:51 <elliott_> pir^2: I didn't write that quine...
19:36:51 <calamari> Friendship, have you used canvas in javascript? is it slow?
19:37:11 <elliott_> pir^2: All that stuff is oerjan's doing.
19:37:18 <Friendship> I have used it. I haven't tried to do anything sophisticated enough to judge its speed.
19:37:47 <fizzie> calamari: Based on my experiences, scientists as a group tend to not really emphasize "skill" in programming, more like horrible cobblering together of brittle messes. But of course knowing about parallelism would be useful if you work with large datasets, which is what most do. (But they've got things like MATLAB Distributed Computing Server to help in the dirty bits.)
19:37:49 <elliott_> @ask oerjan Does the /// program /// halt? It replaces all occurrences of the empty string in the empty string with the empty string.
19:38:00 <calamari> Friendship, ah okay I was thinking of trying to port FillyPaint from Java to Javascript.. since Java was failing me at cross platform compatibility
19:38:41 <pir^2> isn't that the point of Java?
19:38:51 <Friendship> calamari: For something like that I can't imagine that canvas would be too slow.
19:39:04 <calamari> fizzie, thanks. I'm just trying to put some bs together to do well at a job interview.. since I've never done any scientific programming I figured my best shot would be to ephasize whatever component skills it required
19:39:15 <Friendship> emscripten can play video on a canvas at 30FPS, but that's just straight blitting *shrugs*
19:39:15 <calamari> pir^2, you would think so, yes
19:42:50 <elliott_> Friendship: What's one of the codepoints that are explicitly invalid, not just reserved for future use?
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19:47:20 <fizzie> calamari: It certainly doesn't seem to require at least very much skill in programming in order to be a scientist. But I suppose some pre-existing knowledge on the systems used could help. MATLAB was mentioned and is pretty popular esp. for prototyping algorithms, and quite often that's all one needs. I suppose in some fields you might easily encounter some R, or maybe some MPI stuff. And people actually still do some FORTRAN, but I doubt anyone ...
19:47:26 <fizzie> ... would assume a working FORTRAN knowledge. Then there's all kinds of maybe lesser-used things, like SciPy, as well as topic-specific tools. Oh, and things that have to do with "grid computing", like, uh... Hadoop/MapReduce, stuff like that. In general, people are not usually doing very "low-level" things, like networking, manually.
19:48:10 * elliott_ thinks the term "scientific computing" is far too vague to be answering in all these details.
19:48:37 <fizzie> Normal operating procedure seems to be to find suitable components that are more or less related to what you're trying to accomplish, and bolt them together into a ball, instead of actually programming things.
19:48:56 <fizzie> Of course it's a bit different if you actually end up implementing something that doesn't yet exist.
19:49:21 <fizzie> It's a dirty job, but someone's gotta do it, I suppose.
19:50:58 <fizzie> elliott_: Well, I was just trying to think of things that are sort of multidisciplinary, even if they happen to still be specific things that you very easily might not happen to encounter.
19:51:21 <fizzie> Lots of happening there.
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20:17:06 <Taneb> Well, we've finished reading Salom and began Lady Windemere's Fan
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20:36:51 <elliott_> Friendship: Tell Phantom_Hoover he should watch TNG.
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20:50:01 <fizzie> @tell elliott_ there's actually a bot that can tell people things.
20:51:27 <elliott_> @ask fizzie Who do you trust more: lambdabot or the abstract concept of friendship itself?
20:52:42 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/qkxns/new_research_has_been_published_that_states_that/c3yjo4t
20:54:34 <elliott_> Hey, it's one of those arguments where I hate everybody on both sides.
20:54:34 <lambdabot> elliott_: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
20:55:49 <elliott_> What is 'Space' expanding into? (self.askscience)
20:55:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Note that the other side isn't arguing in favour of using corporal punishment as a way of forcing obedience, but to stop the child from potentially killing itself.
20:56:05 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott_, did I tell you about the time my chemistry teacher asked that.
20:56:31 <Taneb> Space doesn't exist except as an abstract notion. It's the things that exist that are spreading out in space.
20:56:36 <Phantom_Hoover> I say asked because she already knew that the answer was "nobody knows", even after I tried to explain it.
20:56:37 <Taneb> I'm rehearsing for reddit
20:57:08 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: I know what the other side is arguing in favour of.
20:58:06 <Phantom_Hoover> It's the perfectly concrete thing whereby stuff isn't all in the same place.
20:59:25 <Taneb> I'm not great at explaining things. When I try to explain complex numbers, I make people lose all concrete grasp of mathematics.
21:00:53 <itidus21> is the problem that mathematicians don't actually know anything about space that the average joe doesn't know?
21:01:14 <Taneb> Astrophysicisists in this case, itidus21.
21:01:19 <Taneb> It's a different kind of space
21:01:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, it's just the application of the Cayley-Dickson construction to the reals!
21:02:01 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, my explanation goes along the lines of "What do you mean they don't exist! No numbers exist!
21:04:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, I think it's a lot easier to introduce if you just show them it as operations on tuples.
21:06:22 <Taneb> Possibly, but that doesn't explain the idea behind them
21:06:27 <elliott_> I remember when I figured out complex numbers and I was like "wtf, they're just tuples".
21:06:39 <elliott_> Like, I spent tons of MENTAL PREPARATION.
21:07:03 <Phantom_Hoover> It'd be much much much easier if you didn't tell people beforehand that you can't take the square root of a negative number.
21:07:37 <Taneb> Am I the only person who just understood complex numbers, without many analogies or other things of the sort?
21:07:47 <itidus21> i understand.. i have failed to find the "wtf they're just X" in the quest to understand the various turing tarpit models of computation
21:08:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Just one which most tend to be inclined against approaching from the right direction.
21:08:22 <Taneb> Now matrices I found confusing
21:08:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Matrices are just the action of a linear transformation on a basis.
21:09:03 <Taneb> I'm not good at the lingo.
21:09:09 <itidus21> i think the word "imaginary" does a lot of damage
21:10:47 <Phantom_Hoover> A linear transformation is a function f from one vector space to another such that f(u + v) = f(u) + f(v) and f(ku) = kf(u).
21:11:30 <Phantom_Hoover> A basis is any set of vectors such that you can't form any of them by adding the others together and scaling and you can make any other vector by adding and scaling them.
21:12:13 <zzo38> Matrix mathematics are useful in many cases, including but not limited to vectors and so on. (You can also make up a matrix to act like complex numbers, and so on)
21:12:54 <itidus21> *gestures excitedly* matrices are eerily useful.
21:12:56 <Phantom_Hoover> It's easy to show that for any matrix M, f(v) = Mv is a linear transformation, and two linear transformations which transform all the vectors of a basis in the same way must be the same.
21:14:24 <zzo38> (I have even thought of ways to use matrices for accounting too)
21:14:37 <itidus21> Matrices remind me of CA's .. this leads me to ponder what algebra on CA's might mean.
21:15:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, have you been shown the thing where you can get the matrix associated with a transformation by working out what it does to the points with 1 coordinate set to 1 and the others to 0?
21:16:09 <itidus21> mouse running on a wheel in my head
21:17:06 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I think so...?
21:17:23 <Taneb> For 2x2 matrices, anyway
21:17:43 <Taneb> I'd assume the concept could be expanded into larger matrices
21:19:44 <itidus21> the trouble with > 3 spatial dimensions is that we don't have any way of imagining what a world with 4d light, 4d water, 4d gravity, 4d animals, 4d plants, 4d houses, 4d planets, 4d solar systems, etc would look like
21:20:22 <itidus21> its just such an extremely hard prospect for the imagination
21:20:37 <itidus21> like in 3d we have 3d solids 3d gases 3d liquids
21:24:08 <zzo38> Well, we can think about their properties, even if we cannot imagine how we would actually see them and do stuff with them
21:25:43 <Taneb> Flatland was a book on mathematical theory with thinly veiled satire on contemporary culture; Alice in Wonderland was a book on culture with thinly veiled satire on contemporary mathematical theory
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21:27:14 <itidus21> well i can't help but imagining everything to be kind of shiny....
21:27:24 <itidus21> like the sun shining on the ocean
21:28:07 <itidus21> probably not particulary healthy to think about too
21:28:53 <itidus21> so.. if you had a 4d terrain.. could you run on it in 3 dimensions... and jump up in 1 dimension?
21:29:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, I was really amused when a book of cruel and unusual geometry I found in school had one result in hyperbolic geometry which noted that Lewis Caroll said it was bullshit when he heard about it.
21:30:30 <Taneb> Lewis Caroll was the best mathematician/author/poet/photographer in Victorian England
21:31:05 <itidus21> i downloaded everything i could find written by him online
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21:31:14 <itidus21> but as is a pattern with me i didn't read it
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21:33:06 <itidus21> there is also the question of 4d atoms.. 4d subatoms.. 4d elements.. 4d molecules..
21:34:11 <zzo38> itidus21: If you know some things about physics and chemistry, you can try to think about such things as that; you could make up different laws of physics to describe them if it is necessary to do so, etc
21:34:14 <itidus21> up through to 4d cells.. 4d tissue.. 4d organisms.. 4d species
21:34:54 <itidus21> i just have a strong intuitive sense that the water is extremely shiny in 4d land
21:35:20 <zzo38> One day, I was trying to think of how to use complex numbers in accounting; and then I discovered that complex numbers have no use in accounting but matrices do have a use in accounting.
21:35:31 <HackEgo> rvchangue: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
21:35:44 <zzo38> itidus21: But then you have to describe the way of shiny in four dimensions instead of three dimension
21:36:20 <itidus21> probably my senses lying to me a bit
21:36:41 <itidus21> im not actually thinking in 4d after all
21:37:24 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Ask Sgeo; I don't know.
21:39:00 <zzo38> Do you believe me that complex number have no use in accounting, but that matrices (and even Dirac notation) can have use in accounting?
21:39:17 <Phantom_Hoover> No, since complex numbers can be expressed as matrices?
21:39:43 <Taneb> Since you may need to find out the root of all this negative income?
21:39:58 <zzo38> I know that complex numbers can be expressed as matrices.
21:40:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_, HOW CAN YOU GET THE TIMINGS SO WRONG ALSO THE NOTES A(RTGAI
21:40:38 <zzo38> Taneb: No, that isn't how it works...
21:41:12 <itidus21> ok so to see in 4d.. first you need a 3 dimensional retina
21:41:24 <zzo38> (For one thing, there is a way to make matrices satisfy GAAPs, although complex numbers don't satisfy that and using them to find out the root of negative income certainly does not follow GAAPs.)
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21:42:48 <itidus21> presumably shaped like a pyramid
21:43:43 <itidus21> and my brain gives out at that stage
21:43:54 <zzo38> (You probably will still be using standard double-entry notation to record transactions, although Dirac notation becomes useful for reasoning about them and describing them in various other ways, dealing with them in other ways, etc. However, if you write them in Dirac notation you can convert them to standard notation if you have the current state vector, since its meaning might be dependent on the current state vector.)
21:44:58 <zzo38> Now do you understand a bit better>
21:47:24 <Phantom_Hoover> No. I don't think you've ever managed to communicate anything to anyone.
21:47:46 <Phantom_Hoover> You might succeed if you tried to express your frustration at something,.
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21:53:51 <zzo38> One of the elements in the state vector is just set to 1 so that a transaction can use that; it can be used to represent the currency unit, and you might have more than one such element in the state vector. Each account, or even a part of an account if you need to split it into multiple parts, can be represented by covectors. Do you know about double entry accounting?
21:55:40 <zzo38> One of the properties is that transactions (including macro transactions) forms a monoid.
21:58:59 <zzo38> Does any of this make any sense to anyone?
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22:09:22 <zzo38> If you include the date/time, then it forms a category.
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22:22:54 <Vorpal> zzo38, wait what, did you say "Dirac notation" and "double-entry notation" above?
22:23:01 <Vorpal> how are those even remotely related?
22:23:26 <zzo38> Vorpal: Yes I did say that. They are not related but you can see what I meant by that if you read it.
22:23:32 <Vorpal> one is for representing quantum states as far as I understood, the other is for economic transactions
22:23:38 <Vorpal> and no what you said makes no sense
22:23:57 <zzo38> True; you are correct. However, Dirac notation can be used with any matrices; not necessarily quantum states.
22:24:27 <Vorpal> well, you may be correct, I never used dirac notation
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22:25:00 <zzo38> (But just because Dirac notation can be used with any matrices, it doesn't mean it is commonly used for anything other than quantum states.)
22:25:46 <zzo38> And why do you think what I said makes no sense? What parts are unclear to you?
22:25:49 <Vorpal> I didn't even know quantum states were matrices, I haven't studied quantum mechanics at all beyond "popular science"
22:26:11 <zzo38> Vorpal: They can be represented as matrices.
22:26:34 <Vorpal> nor did I know double entry bookkeeping were matrices
22:27:04 <zzo38> Nobody did until I figured out how to represent them as matrices; and even then, nbodoy else understands what I mean.
22:28:13 <Vorpal> zzo38, not sure what sort of matrix operations would even make sense on double entry book keeping though
22:28:23 <Vorpal> I mean, why is it an advantage to use that representation
22:29:09 <Vorpal> can you get interesting results by, say, transposing them, or reducing them to row echelon form or such?
22:31:22 <fizzie> I think I saw <a| and |b> and <a|b> somewhere in a non-quantum context. Can't figure out where, though, so I might just be making it up.
22:31:23 <lambdabot> fizzie: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
22:32:14 <zzo38> I don't yet know about transposing them or reducing to row echelon form or such (I don't even know what row echelon form is); but it might turn out to mean something.
22:32:37 <Vorpal> zzo38, you know how to solve a linear equation system using matrices?
22:32:42 <zzo38> But multiplication of matrices, and using vectors and covectors, does have use that I know about.
22:32:50 <Vorpal> The Gauss Jordan method and such
22:32:54 <zzo38> Vorpal: I know a few things about that.
22:33:13 <Vorpal> zzo38, when you do that you reduce your matrix to reduced row echelon form
22:33:47 <zzo38> And yes you are correct, you might be able to use those kinds of solve linear equation system to decide business stuff possibly.
22:33:53 <Vorpal> zzo38, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Row_echelon_form
22:33:59 <zzo38> Vorpal: O, that's what reduced row echelon form is. OK.
22:34:43 <zzo38> Now I can think of other uses for row echelon form in matrix accounting.
22:35:05 <Vorpal> zzo38, anyway, how /do/ you represent double entry book keeping as matrices? Can you give some examples typeset in TeX? (PDF please, I don't have a .ps or .dvi viewer on this computer)
22:36:01 <Vorpal> zzo38, row echelon form is the one where you haven't removed non-zeros above the leading ones in, /reduced/ row echelon form is the one where you have removed those non-zeros
22:36:11 <zzo38> I don't have PDF, I only output to DVI. However, I can use PNG if you prefer that.
22:36:14 <fizzie> Also, do you already happen to have uses for eigenvalues in matrix accounting?
22:36:32 <zzo38> Normal row echelon form seems useless in this context but reduced row echelon form seems potentially useful to me.
22:37:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, I wonder what happens if you use the least square method on those matrices too.
22:37:33 <Vorpal> might be useful to approximate in case of errors
22:37:39 <zzo38> Yes, it does mean you can think about such things as these to see what happen.
22:37:43 <Vorpal> rather than having to redo it all to find the error as is usually done :P
22:38:13 <zzo38> Vorpal: O, yes good idea.
22:38:43 <Vorpal> anyway I forgot how you did that with matrices
22:39:00 <Vorpal> didn't you transpose one matrix and multiply it with another or some such?
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22:43:09 <zzo38> This example matrix: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/texify/texify.php?TeX=%24%24%5Cbmatrix%7B1%260%26-5%5Ccr0%261%265%5Ccr0%260%261%5Ccr%7D+%5Cbmatrix%7B100%5Ccr-100%5Ccr1%5Ccr%7D+%3D+%5Cbmatrix%7B95%5Ccr-95%5Ccr1%5Ccr%7D%24%24&R=255&G=255&B=255&r=0&g=0&b=0&rotate=0&size=x&make=r Where you have a simple transaction -5 to one account and +5 to another (balancing out). You can have more complicated ones for Income Summary, salary/interest of pa
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22:45:10 <Vorpal> zzo38, so all accounts are in the same matrix?
22:45:20 <zzo38> Now I know what "ref" and "rref" stand for in the names of those functions in the TI-92 calculator. I knew what they did but not why they were called that; now I do know.
22:45:38 <Vorpal> zzo38, same for TI-83+ btw
22:45:50 <Vorpal> TI-92 can do symbolic computations can't it?
22:46:04 <zzo38> Vorpal: Yes it can do that.
22:46:20 <Vorpal> so usually not allowed on exams (while the TI-83+ is on many)
22:47:09 <zzo38> Vorpal: Yes; but you generally you can use a subset of all the accounts for convenience, or use Dirac notation for convenience. (You need not write out the entire matrix every time)
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22:48:45 <zzo38> And, yes; the TI-92 is usually not allowed on exams; not only due to symbolic computations but also because it has a QWERTY keyboard, apparently. (Although there are a few special test papers which allow you to use any calculator you want)
22:49:01 <Vorpal> zzo38, so how do you make the financial statement (google translate from "bokslut" so might be wrong) at the end of the fiscal year using your matrices?
22:49:49 <Vorpal> hm google translate also suggests "annual report"
22:49:53 <Vorpal> so that might be better
22:50:16 <zzo38> Vorpal: In general you still record using double-entry notation; but you can use the state vector to prepare a statement easily: Each element of the vector corresponds to an account, so simply put those numbers next to account names. You can also multiply all the transactions together for a year for other information.
22:50:56 <zzo38> (Hence how I have also said you can include the date/time and form a category as well instead of only a monoid.)
22:51:38 <fizzie> Vorpal: You multiply all the transactions together, and print out the full matrix, then give that to your executives. They'll just smile and nod and not complain, which is what they might do if you gave them a list of transactions.
22:51:56 <fizzie> (Written from the perspective of an accountant.)
22:52:45 <zzo38> fizzie: I meant you have to format the results. Printing out the full matrix is not very useful.
22:53:01 <zzo38> (And in addition would probably waste a lot of paper.)
22:53:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, not sure what skattemyndigheten would say though (whatever that is called in English)
22:53:57 <Vorpal> pretty sure you are required to hand them some of those things in Sweden at least
22:54:44 <fizzie> I'm just hoping for "Linear Algebra for Accountants" courses in business schools.
22:54:46 <zzo38> (When I first invented matrix accounting, I did not know about category theory. But now I know how categories can work with it too.)
23:00:28 <zzo38> In the past I have worked out the matrices for partnership accounting too; but I have forgotten now and would have to work them out again if I want to figure them out again.
23:05:10 <fizzie> (But Real Soon, I purrmise.)
23:05:20 <Friendship> "Caregiver" and "caretaker" are synonyms. lolenglish
23:06:41 <elliott_> fizzie seems to be having trouble getting a grasp on the issue.
23:06:50 <elliott_> Personally, I'm having trouble grasping his problem.
23:07:13 <Friendship> Suffice it to say that much grasping is going on.
23:15:01 <Friendship> To any who recall the questions I showed yesterday, I have now answered them.
23:15:43 <Friendship> Phantom_Hoover: http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2012-03-07#034537Friendship
23:16:27 <Friendship> Anyway, I wrote out my answers while in front of a lab of students, so got some crowdsourcing for ideas.
23:18:02 <Friendship> Phantom_Hoover: I don't know what you look like.
23:18:46 <Friendship> Thank you for that precise description.
23:19:19 <elliott_> > > What was the motivation behind having people vote on your daily hat
23:19:20 <elliott_> Profound laziness. I used to actually make decisions, but found that
23:19:20 <elliott_> it's much easier for others to make all my decisions for me. See also
23:19:20 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `>'
23:19:21 <elliott_> choosemyshoes.com, choosemydate.com, choosemysexualorientation.com,
23:19:26 <elliott_> Friendship: You gotta register those before sending it.
23:19:47 <Friendship> Sorry, already sent; and I'm not wasting that money quite so haphazardly X-D
23:20:32 <elliott_> There's still time before they read it.
23:20:40 <elliott_> Hmm, more like 30 bucks I guess.
23:21:00 <Phantom_Hoover> -- Gregor "Sure, I'll spend $1000 on libc.so" Richards.
23:21:01 <Friendship> Besides, I'm not confident that I actually want to put my sexual orientation to popular vote.
23:21:13 <Friendship> Phantom_Hoover: libc.so ain't the same as choosemyshoes.com
23:21:39 <elliott_> Guys, Friendship would live in Texas if they had good universities.
23:22:11 <elliott_> "I hollow out bars of soap and fill them with liquid." Me too!
23:22:27 <elliott_> Except it's not soap liquid I put in them. I've said too much.
23:22:42 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `>'
23:23:49 <elliott_> Friendship: Somehow you have managed to rescue these disastrous interview questions and made the result entertaining.
23:24:26 <elliott_> Friendship: HOWEVER, I am disappointed that you did not conspicuously predict one of the future questions in the answers.
23:24:33 <elliott_> That is the duty of all interviewees given all questions in advance.
23:26:09 <Friendship> There's probably a Lancaster, England, Massachusetts, US :)
23:26:19 <Friendship> I wouldn't put it past them to name a district "England"
23:26:29 <elliott_> As far as I can tell, Massachusetts is England, except in America.
23:26:45 <elliott_> "You know what these united states need?" "What?" "England."
23:27:46 <elliott_> "OK, now that we've built England, what are we gonna do with it?"
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23:43:18 <elliott_> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA MY FACE IMPLODE
23:46:04 <elliott_> Friendship: Did you see my REWRITTEN [[:///]] INTRO?
23:56:14 <Vorpal> <elliott_> Doesn't yours? <-- hm, exploding is more common than imploding in the Nordic countries. (Just ask oerjan)
23:56:39 <Vorpal> though imploding still does happen occasionally of course.
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