00:01:09 <oklofok> it's the partitive case of "shallow and spot"
00:02:21 <oklofok> (shallows meaning shallows spots in a body of water)
00:04:21 <oklofok> it's a popular finnish game where you get on a boat with our family and throw the family dog and your kids in the water. the game is that you try to shoow the family dog before your kids find a shallow spot. if they can't find one fast enough, they drown and you shoot the dog, otherwise everyone's safe
00:04:32 <oklofok> i know it sounds cruel but it's actually a lot of fun
00:04:45 <oklofok> if you hate your life and are a sociopath with a shotgun
00:06:05 <oklofok> also pun not intended with shallow spot vs. dog name spot. didn't even notice that, i'm very tired.
00:06:32 <oklofok> also we use the partitive because you cut them into pieces if they lose
00:07:16 <oklofok> if they win, you cut them into peace easy, which sounds like a good thing
00:07:35 <oklofok> so this one time there was cheese
00:10:03 -!- nortti has left.
00:10:24 <oklofok> i feel partially responsible for that
00:11:23 <oklofok> wonder what i should say next
00:11:35 <oklofok> maybe i'll talk about feelings
00:12:06 <oklofok> feelings are interesting because while they don't really have physical form, you can still "eat them", i'm sure you know which idiom i'm referring to
00:12:22 <oklofok> this probably stems from some sort of conspiracies in history when i was going to sleep
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00:53:25 <zzo38> Has the Bible ever been translated into Egyptian hieroglyphics?
00:55:44 <Friendship> Or more likely into hieratics, but same idea.
00:55:45 <elliott> The bible was written in Egyptian hieroglyphics, man!
00:58:38 <Friendship> (That was a bad joke by the way, I don't think the Torah has been translated into ancient Egyptian ;) )
01:02:53 <zzo38> Some of the texts probably did have origins in Egyptian ideas. However, what I mean is the modern text, including the New Testament as well. There are probably are Ehyptian texts with similar ideas to texts in the Bible; but that is not what I meant.
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01:33:12 <pikhq_> Pong; just got home from work.
01:35:40 <elliott> I forget, do you have to do anything special to get Quod Libet playing gapless?
01:42:32 <zzo38> I would like to know if there is ephemeris software which includes rotation of objects other than the Earth.
01:43:30 <calamari> zzo38: stellarium includes jupiters great red spot.. is that what you mean?
01:43:48 <calamari> zzo38: (so you can figure out when it'll be visible)
01:44:26 <zzo38> calamari: That would be one example, I suppose.
01:44:50 <calamari> zzo38: and it might do other planets as well, but I don't know their surface features well enough to say for sure
01:48:21 <pikhq_> elliott: Nothing special.
01:49:02 <calamari> zzo38: well I was curious so I fast-forwarded on mars.. it spun the planet, so I'm assuming yes
01:49:53 <calamari> zzo38: what project are you planning?
01:51:31 <pikhq_> If you're unlucky, though, GStreamer will have a bug preventing gapless FLAC.
01:51:50 <pikhq_> (fixed in latest GStreamer, though)
01:53:49 <elliott> I suspect Arch has a new enough GStreamer to avoid that.
01:53:53 <elliott> But it is indeed FLACs I'm playing.
01:58:45 <Jafet1> You could delete quotlibet and install xmms!
01:59:12 <pikhq_> It'd probably be saner to install Winamp 2 in WINE. Surprisingly.
01:59:31 <Sgeo_> What is the computational class of Common Lisp FORMAT strings?
02:00:05 <Jafet1> Actually by this channel's standards, probably tarpit-medium
02:00:30 <Sgeo_> I asked in #lisp if it's TC, they said no
02:00:37 <Sgeo_> Or, one person said no.
02:00:55 <pikhq_> I'd imagine it's at minimum a FSM.
02:00:59 <Sgeo_> I should note that I'm excluding ~/
02:01:53 <zzo38> calamari: I do not need a picture of the planets. I intend something superior to Astrolog, with more coordinate systems, and more other stuff too including custom orbital parameters (Astrolog has these but in a very limited way), and a few features Swiss Ephemeris also appears to lack. However, apparent diameters would be useful, but photographs are unnecessary.
02:02:13 <elliott> pikhq_: Hey, xmms2 ain't bad.
02:02:45 <zzo38> (Such things as refraction are also useful to have here; as well as switching on/off various things such as annual aberration of light, and finite speed of light, etc)
02:03:47 <zzo38> (Swiss Ephemeris has some of these features, but not all.)
02:04:00 <pikhq_> elliott: If you omit a number, I assume xmms1.
02:04:09 <calamari> zzo38: well maybe it's just me, but if it can produce a pic of the planet spinning then it did the calculation in the stellarium code somewhere
02:04:20 <pikhq_> XMMS wasn't too bad. In 2000.
02:04:37 <pikhq_> That's over half my lifetime ago.
02:05:26 <zzo38> calamari: Yes that may be the case. However, is there any standard zero longitude defined on the planets other than the Earth?
02:05:55 <calamari> zzo38: guess you'd have to look and see
02:06:11 <pikhq_> zzo38: Don't think so. We'd need to get the British to set up shop on each one for that to happen.
02:06:23 <pikhq_> And then we can have Martian Greenwich Mean Time.
02:07:07 <zzo38> And I mean not only the planets, but also the Moon and Sun, and also dwarf planets.
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02:11:25 <zzo38> If we know the objects and the rotations of each one, we can make up coordinates for locations on the surface of the planets, and local ecliptic and local equatorial celestial coordinates relative to those planets, and timezones, and houses relative to those planets.
02:11:54 <zzo38> (As well as where the local tropics are)
02:12:05 <zzo38> (And a few other things too)
02:12:39 <elliott> pikhq_: Question: Who thought it was a good idea to put any user interface (e.g., dials) on the back of a device which is intended to be operated facing forwards?
02:12:45 <elliott> And how can I reeducate them?
02:13:14 <pikhq_> Beats me. The only form of UI that makes sense there is the sort that you literally do not need to look at at all.
02:13:28 <pikhq_> Say. R and L *buttons* on a controller.
02:13:47 <zzo38> Nintendo 64 has the Z button on the back.
02:13:54 <elliott> I imagine it's because they believe the configuration is a rare task, or the back will be readily-accessible even if it involves going 'round to the cables.
02:14:10 <pikhq_> Oh, wait, you mean something that's not even hand-held?
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02:14:32 <elliott> Bonus: if you just turn it around to do it, you won't be able to tell if you set it right or not, so you just have to lean over it.
02:14:51 <elliott> Bonus to the bonus: It has sharp corners.
02:14:59 <elliott> I would like my hands back.
02:15:07 <zzo38> The other thing I was looking for, is glyphs for all the dwarf planets in our solar system; some of them do not yet have glyphs (one does not yet have a name; and it should probably be named first before a glyph is assigned)
02:20:17 <zzo38> (2007 OR10 lacks a name.)
02:21:57 <Sgeo_> elliott, why do you have to actually see the dial itself?
02:24:40 <Sgeo_> Oh, I guess physically reaching it is difficult?
02:25:25 <calamari> zzo38: do you have a telescope?
02:25:27 <elliott> Well, not impossible, but I do have to move it slightly and lean over, leading to awkwardness and aforementioned sharp corner nicks.
02:26:39 <zzo38> calamari: No, I don't. But even if I did, that wouldn't help me to name 2007 OR10 or assign glyphs or anything.
02:27:01 <calamari> zzo38: just trying to understand your interest in celestial mechanics
02:27:20 <zzo38> For the purpose of writing computer programs.
02:27:49 <zzo38> (I do sometimes look at the stars and moon and so on outside; but I have no telescope)
02:28:33 <calamari> I'd like to write a program to use a wii remote to help me aim my scope
02:28:51 <zzo38> Do you have Bluetooth in your computer?
02:28:55 <calamari> but I still need to figure out the math
02:29:11 <calamari> yes, but I was envisioning using my phone
02:30:03 <zzo38> Astrolog does have many features; but some features are lacked, such as GPS input, and negative harmonic factors.
02:32:46 <zzo38> (The reason I want glyphs for the dwarf planets is for purpose of including them on diagrams. There are many kinds of diagrams which you might want them on)
02:33:12 <zzo38> (However, it is only the certain and nearly certain ones which I am interested in.)
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02:34:14 <Sgeo_> zzo38, have you ever tried a Lisp?
02:38:38 <Sgeo_> monqy, tswett update
02:40:19 -!- elliott has joined.
02:40:43 <Sgeo_> Did you even see the flash yet?
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03:12:28 <tswett> You know, I don't think I care for Polynomial.
03:12:43 <tswett> I think it ought to be designed in such a way that it doesn't *matter* which way the instructions are executed.
03:13:53 <tswett> esolangs.org/wiki/Polynomial or summat.
03:17:05 <tswett> Man. The page "Pure BF" looks sort of familiar. Almost as if I had written it or something.
03:17:06 <Sgeo_> register += 0 is not representable in Polynomial?
03:19:16 <tswett> Sure it is. Multiply the polynomial by 4.
04:06:25 -!- elliott has joined.
04:06:42 <elliott> Friendship: So did your interview get published?
04:08:04 -!- deadlocked has joined.
04:10:20 <HackEgo> deadlocked: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
04:21:33 <elliott> I don't think deadlocked feels welcome enough.
04:23:37 <ion> There should be a `WELCOME which welcomes someone IN CAPS.
04:28:43 <elliott> `run echo '#!/bin/sh' >bin/WELCOME; echo "welcome \"\$@\" | perl -ne 'print lc(\$_)'" >>bin/WELCOME
04:28:56 <HackEgo> ion: welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! for more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/main_page
04:29:06 <elliott> That was quite a spectacular failure.
04:29:15 <elliott> `run echo '#!/bin/sh' >bin/WELCOME; echo "welcome \"\$@\" | perl -ne 'print uc(\$_)'" >>bin/WELCOME; chmod +x `which WELCOME`
04:29:25 <HackEgo> ION: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE
04:29:41 <Sgeo_> `WELCOME lowerelliott
04:29:44 <HackEgo> LOWERELLIOTT: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE
04:29:46 <elliott> I think this more appropriately conveys the sinister hostility which underlies our initially seemingly-benign welcomings.
04:31:53 <zzo38> The URL are case sensitive
04:33:11 <Sgeo_> Well, the wiki part is
04:33:21 <Sgeo_> Actually, both parts are.
04:33:31 <Sgeo_> And by both, I am excluding esolangs.org
04:33:31 <elliott> I COULD MAKE /WIKI/ BE A MIRROR OF THE WIKI WITH ALL THE TEXT TRANSLATED TO UPPERCASE.
04:33:35 <zzo38> The URI scheme and domain name is case insensitive, but the rest is case sensitive.
04:33:40 <ion> THAT WOULD BE COOL.
04:33:44 <elliott> IN FACT, I AM NOW SORELY TEMPTED TO DO THAT.
04:34:01 <Sgeo_> ELLIOTT, THAT WIKI WILL BE A FALSE WIKI, FOR THOSE LANGUAGE WHICH ARE CASE SENSITIVE
04:34:28 <elliott> FALSE, PERHAPS, BUT WHO WILL QUESTION A WIKI THAT SHOUTS THAT LOUD
04:35:22 <Sgeo_> esolangs.org will still show up as lowercase in most browsers' address bars?
04:35:35 <elliott> OKAY, THE MAIN PROBLEM I CAN SEE IS THAT IT'S FIDDLY TO DETERMINE WHICH PARTS TO UPPERCASE, HTML-WISE.
04:36:01 <elliott> THE RELIABLE THING WOULD BE TO MAKE A NEW LANGUAGE IN THE MEDIAWIKI INSTALLATION IDENTICAL TO THE ENGLISH ONE BUT WITH ALL THE TEXT UPPERCASED, AND WRITE AN EXTENSION TO FILTER THE TITLE AND PAGE TEXT BEFORE OUTPUTTING, BUT FUCK THAT NOISE.
04:36:14 <elliott> FUCK IT, I'LL DO IT SOME OTHER TIME.
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04:39:49 <madbr> wonder if it's possible to make a language out of nothing but threads and mutexes
04:39:52 <elliott> That's so bold I can't read.
04:40:01 <elliott> madbr: Makes me think of the pi calculus.
04:42:44 <elliott> madbr: Well, because that just has concurrent communicating processes (~ threads).
04:42:52 <elliott> And you can do the lambda calculus with it.
04:44:00 <elliott> You want the pthreads to pi calculus' Erlang. :p
04:48:30 <madbr> yeah... was thinking of making a language with only the bad parts of c++ :D
04:50:21 <ion> `run welcome foo | perl -CS -Mutf8 -Mlocale -pwe 'y/!-~/！-～/; y/ / /'
04:50:25 <HackEgo> ｆｏｏ： Ｗｅｌｃｏｍｅ ｔｏ ｔｈｅ ｉｎｔｅｒｎａｔｉｏｎａｌ ｈｕｂ ｆｏｒ ｅｓｏｔｅｒｉｃ ｐｒｏｇｒａｍｍｉｎｇ ｌａｎｇｕａｇｅ ｄｅｓｉｇｎ ａｎｄ ｄｅｐｌｏｙｍｅｎｔ！ Ｆｏｒ ｍｏｒｅ ｉｎｆｏｒｍａｔｉｏｎ， ｃｈｅｃｋ ｏｕｔ ｏｕｒ ｗｉｋｉ： ｈｔｔｐ：／／ｅｓｏｌａｎｇｓ．ｏｒ
04:51:30 <ion> Whoops, i meant to drop -Mlocale, it isn’t needed.
04:53:23 <elliott> I don't have those fonts. :(
04:53:55 <ion> Dunno, whatever Ubuntu has by default. :-P
04:54:58 <pikhq_> Something for Japanese.
04:55:02 <elliott> Didn't peg you as an Ubuntu user.
04:55:08 <pikhq_> Look for Mincho and Gothic.
04:55:09 <elliott> Ah, I'll install whatever they were called.
04:57:07 <pikhq_> Mincho and Gothic are *types* of font.
04:57:12 <pikhq_> Takao should do you fine.
04:57:51 <elliott> Yes - now why doesn't Arch have it.
04:58:08 <elliott> Lots of dashes today, I'm.
04:58:36 <elliott> pikhq_: If not Takao, what would be a good choice of (non-bitmap) Japanese fonts?
04:59:28 <ion> $ apt-cache depends ubuntu-desktop | grep ttf | cut -d' ' -f4 | xargsttf-dejavu-core ttf-freefont ttf-indic-fonts-core ttf-kacst-one ttf-khmeros-core ttf-lao ttf-liberation ttf-punjabi-fonts ttf-takao-pgothic ttf-thai-tlwg ttf-ubuntu-font-family ttf-unfonts-core ttf-wqy-microhei
05:02:31 <elliott> pikhq_: Nunavut in the repositories, either.
05:02:35 <elliott> Guess I'll AUR me some Takao.
05:02:58 <elliott> (Canadian territories are my new phonetic slang source.)
05:03:08 <ion> This was explanatory. http://static.lukew.com/japantype_mincho_gothic.gif
05:03:11 * pikhq_ is using Meiryo, but that's certainly not in the repos, in part due to being illegal without a license for Microsoft Windows
05:03:36 <pikhq_> ion: Yup, all you need to know right there.
05:03:42 <Sgeo_> Is ilari a regular here?
05:03:46 <Sgeo_> Where is ilari a regular?
05:03:56 <pikhq_> ilari was a regular here...
05:04:11 <pikhq_> He seems to have been in #x264 regularly, though.
05:04:19 <elliott> Ilari was a regular here but stopped being here ~two years ago.
05:04:33 <pikhq_> Thought it was more recent than that.
05:04:51 <elliott> You can tell by the lack of IP attrition updates.
05:05:02 <Sgeo_> He has NetHack open on termcast.org for some reason
05:05:03 <elliott> It's like the ticking of a clock, you only notice it's gone minutes too late.
05:05:10 <elliott> Lots of people termcast NetHack.
05:05:12 <Sgeo_> IP attrition updates?
05:05:47 <elliott> Y'know, IPv4 run out and all that.
05:05:52 <elliott> And IPv6 sort of had tiny little nibbles taken out of it.
05:06:08 <pikhq_> Incidentally, RIPE depletion estimated at 2013-03-16. APNIC depleted nearly a year ago.
05:06:26 -!- MDude has changed nick to MSleep.
05:06:39 <elliott> Is that causing problems in AP?
05:06:47 <elliott> I guess there's enough layers that it hasn't really hurt anyone yet.
05:07:23 <pikhq_> It's probably not hurting in Asia quite as hard as it would anywhere else.
05:07:33 <pikhq_> Some of their ISPs have offered home IPv6 since 2000.
05:07:35 -!- deadlocked has left ("Me fui...").
05:07:38 <Sgeo_> Oh, misparsed IP as intellectual property
05:07:47 <elliott> We're running out of intellectual property!
05:07:50 <elliott> Soon there'll be no more ideas.
05:07:53 <ion> “imaginary property”, FTFY.
05:08:13 * ion eats some foot dirt
05:08:21 <elliott> Lord knows all we have to do is to get people to stop saying IP and copyright will DISAPPEAR OVERNIGHT.
05:09:12 <Sgeo_> Intellectual Protocol. Internet Property.
05:09:30 * elliott saw someone expand PIPA as "Protect Internet Privacy Act".
05:09:35 <pikhq_> And we're still going through 1.34 /8s per month.
05:09:51 <elliott> Which, you know... "Act" is right.
05:09:56 <elliott> So they're not *completely* wrong.
05:10:15 <zzo38> And the first letter of each word is also correct.
05:10:41 <elliott> They were actually quite right indeed.
05:10:52 <zzo38> No, they are still wrong in general.
05:10:54 <elliott> Unfortunately, the large amount of wrong they also were drowned out recognition of this.
05:11:25 <Sgeo_> Preventing Intellectual Property Act?
05:11:28 <elliott> Preventing Real Online Threats to Economic Creativity and Theft of Intellectual Property Act.
05:11:41 <elliott> Which stands for the first n words of that expansion.
05:11:54 <elliott> I wonder who gets paid to come up with backronyms for bills.
05:12:04 <elliott> Bills? Is it a bill? I don't know "law".
05:12:13 <ion> I hate it when my intellectual property is stolen. I wish they’d just copy it.
05:12:51 <Sgeo_> ion, I think you're going to kill me.
05:13:15 <elliott> ion: Someone broke into my stereo the other day and stole my music with that "mp3" thing.
05:13:19 <Sgeo_> https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Antiposeball-5-SAVE-PRIMS-ON-FURNITURE/219014
05:13:41 <pikhq_> elliott: It's a bill until it gets signed into law. So, yes, "bills" would be right.
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05:14:00 <elliott> When does it become Ballmer?
05:14:11 <ion> PIРA Is a Рecursive Acronym
05:14:43 <pikhq_> When someone throws a chair across Congress.
05:15:11 <pikhq_> Especially when that someone says "Developers developers developers developers"
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05:15:57 <ion> The word Ballmer looks a bit like pallomeri, which is Finnish for a ball pit, and which translates literally to a sea of balls.
05:17:06 <elliott> ion: For certain values of a bit.
05:17:17 <elliott> Well. I suppose it has at least 1 bit in common.
05:18:01 <shachaf> elliott: Does it also have 0 bit in common?
05:18:10 <shachaf> If those are both true then it has both bits in common.
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06:29:59 <oerjan> <oklofok> also we use the partitive because you cut them into pieces if they lose
06:30:35 <oerjan> oklofok: more disturbing than usual
06:35:19 <elliott> hi oerjan! im tired oerjan!
06:35:30 <oerjan> hi elliott! go to bed elliott!
06:36:51 <oerjan> ____ ___ _____ ___ ____ _____ ____
06:36:51 <oerjan> / ___|/ _ \ |_ _/ _ \ | __ )| ____| _ \
06:36:51 <oerjan> | | _| | | | | || | | | | _ \| _| | | | |
06:36:51 <oerjan> | |_| | |_| | | || |_| | | |_) | |___| |_| |
06:36:51 <oerjan> \____|\___/ |_| \___/ |____/|_____|____/
06:37:31 <elliott> well that's just ridiculous.
06:37:57 <oerjan> well it's ridiculous if you _haven't_ been up all night.
06:38:56 <elliott> ok maybe i will. WE'LL SEE.
06:45:31 <Sgeo> "It is recommended that a report message be a complete sentences, in the proper case and correctly punctuated."
06:45:57 <Sgeo> http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/09_acaa.htm
06:45:58 <tswett> Rokostaa mutaa mi elejästyty jo rammastulo ei ava luonen.
06:46:27 <Sgeo> All Google Translate got out of that was "not already opened"
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06:47:52 <tswett> Huh, "ava" is a Finnish word. I didn't know that.
06:48:11 <elliott> oerjan: asdfl;;gskhh;g;j'fd'h
06:48:24 <oerjan> elliott: ewoufhwrqølbre
06:49:03 <oerjan> how dare you cry at the mighty ølbre
06:49:14 <oerjan> (that would mean beer glacier)
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06:51:11 <oerjan> elliott is a grey? that would so explain things.
06:51:33 <oerjan> what seems to be problem, actually? except that you should GO TO BED?
06:51:44 <elliott> im not sure what the problem is
06:52:00 <elliott> (a) i don't want to stay awake
06:52:19 <oerjan> a seems a bit ambivalent there
06:52:54 <Sgeo> elliott, you can't lucid dream if you don't sleep.
06:53:00 <oerjan> (ü) these things hit the unicode singularity too fast
06:53:20 <elliott> i cant lucid dream if i do sleep take that science
06:53:28 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ":(": not found
06:54:53 <elliott> at that point i realised the swamming pool was a pool... for the dead
06:56:16 <elliott> AAAAAAAAAAIIIIIIIRRRRRRRRR
06:56:18 <oerjan> i vaguely suspect the idiom actually has "pull"
06:57:19 <elliott> [Tomt] Chocolatey hazelnut spread? (self.tipofmytongue)
06:57:19 <elliott> from the title i thought i would finally be able to answer one of these.
06:57:21 <Sgeo> elliott, if you don't go to sleep, I'll be forced to force you to learn Falcon
06:59:08 <quintopia> elliott: does the text say "its definitely not nutella"?
06:59:42 <elliott> it gives enough details to rule out nutella
06:59:48 <oerjan> hm or is it "pour on" dammit i cannot find it
07:04:16 <elliott> how the FUCK do you spell tennessee
07:09:48 <elliott> oerjan: i think the problem with sleep is that you can revise a decision to stay awake on a minute-to-minute basis, which isn't possible with a decision to go to sleep. thus the decision to stay awake seems to be less risky.
07:10:22 <oerjan> i agree with the logic but sleep isn't logical.
07:10:58 <elliott> well, i was using sleep as a shorthand for "the decision-making process when tired at a bad time"
07:11:13 <elliott> not the most intuitive abbreviation i have ever made.
07:13:26 <elliott> if i sleep now, i'll just wake up at 4 pm again.
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07:22:05 <shachaf> elliott: If you don't sleep now, you'll just wake up at 16 again, but feeling grumpy.
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11:00:44 <zzo38> Can you make "where is my keys soup"?
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11:47:13 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
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12:28:25 <oklofok> "<zzo38> Has the Bible ever been translated into Egyptian hieroglyphics?" <<< did you know egyptians were giant aliens who invented electricity and disproved evolution _by their mere existence_?
12:29:14 <oklofok> i was blind but now i have youtube
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12:56:06 <Slereah> The bible has probably been translated in hieroglyphics.
12:56:14 <Slereah> I have an egyptian translation of Peter Rabbit
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15:39:17 <mroman> Are there math symbols for if/while?
15:47:09 <oerjan> if can be a large { with alternatives written behind
15:47:50 <oerjan> while is an imperative thing, so not likely in math
15:48:09 <oerjan> well except as a synonym for if
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15:49:43 <Phantom_Hoover> If in maths isn't like the imperative thing either; it's a case statement.
15:50:15 <mroman> The Haskell guys shouldn't have implemented if :(
15:50:18 <oerjan> more like guards, i think
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16:12:29 <lifthrasiir> P ? a : b is translated to [P] a + [not P] b
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16:56:10 * oerjan curiously discovers that Google seems to have missed the english wikipedia's article on Nam June Paik entirely
16:57:48 <oerjan> i suppose it must somehow have returned an error when they crawled...
17:00:27 <oerjan> either that or it's an evil north korean scheme. take your pick.
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17:12:02 <mroman> Like they sometimes do.
17:12:21 <oerjan> but only on the _english_ wikipedia.
17:12:23 <mroman> They censored the google trends once.
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17:54:19 <elliott> Friendship: Keep talkin', JavaScripter
17:54:53 <elliott> DID YER INTERVIEW GET PUBLICATED
18:14:45 <elliott> Friendship is interviewing for a job.
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18:19:27 <Friendship> oklopol: http://codu.org/tmp/answers.txt <-- here are the questions the FBI asked me, and my answers.
18:20:39 <elliott> 2.0 was those stupid fucking puzzle questions, 3.0 is asking you about hats.
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19:18:38 <mroman> Why would they ask questions about batman?
19:20:04 <mroman> Most of my answers would have been: "That information is private. It's non of your business" :)
19:20:16 <elliott> That's why you don't have a job at the FBI.
19:23:45 <mroman> Around here employees are actually not allowed to ask non-related questions.
19:24:58 <elliott> I feel compelled to point out that Friendship did not actually interview with the FBI.
19:25:24 <mroman> That makes the interview only weirder.
19:25:42 <mroman> Unless the interview itself is not real.
19:25:48 <mroman> Which would make Friendship only weirder.
19:27:22 <oerjan> elliott: does the formatting of http://esolangs.org/wiki/Qdeql#Computational_capability look good? i'm not sure if i did something too hairy to be portable.
19:28:16 <oerjan> (it's a little wider than i like, but i think that's necessary to show it properly.)
19:28:36 <elliott> oerjan: assuming that's what it's meant to look like, it looks what it's meant to look like
19:28:47 <elliott> the code with fewer lines would be better if it was at the top of the cells
19:28:58 <elliott> no, since you have a rowspan
19:29:26 <oerjan> all the rows in a column are related
19:29:37 <elliott> is that "Factory" heading meant to be a table heading? iirc mediawiki has special syntax for htat
19:29:56 <oerjan> oh right i wondered if i should use |+
19:30:23 <oerjan> it was scaled down from an even larger table where factory was a subcolumn
19:32:03 <oerjan> also, a lot of the qdeql commands are supposed to line up with the cell contents they affect
19:32:40 <elliott> assuming it's meant to line up like that.
19:32:45 <elliott> (a screenshot would be helpful :P)
19:33:31 <oerjan> how did i do that again
19:34:06 <elliott> i think XP paint can save as png.
19:35:33 <oerjan> and i've also forgotten where i uploaded last time
19:36:39 <oerjan> erm that was meant as a question
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19:40:53 <elliott> oerjan: i was doing other things :P
19:40:55 <oerjan> http://ompldr.org/vY3pndA
19:41:30 <elliott> except not off the edge of the page :P
19:41:52 <oerjan> i like my browser not to cover all of my irc session
19:42:06 <oerjan> so i keep it a little unmaximal
19:42:59 <elliott> The programming language [[Clojure]] uses a [[Persistent data structure|persistent]] variant of hash array mapped tries for its native hash map type.<ref>[http://github.com/richhickey/clojure/blob/14316ae2110a779ffc8ac9c3da3f1c41852c4289/src/jvm/clojure/lang/PersistentHashMap.java Java source file of Clojure's hash map type.]</ref>
19:43:08 <elliott> is that... an acceptable citation?
19:46:32 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Articles_with_unsourced_statements
19:46:33 <elliott> "Administrators: Please do not delete this category even if it is empty!
19:46:33 <elliott> This category may be empty occasionally or even most of the time."
19:52:54 <elliott> Oh, I was going to play that.
19:53:44 <Friendship> It's F/OSS too, as is the engine that runs it.
19:54:08 <Friendship> Err, that statement was only half as silly as it sounds.
19:54:26 <Friendship> Anyway, it comes with two map packs, and I recommend you play the non-Mario one.
19:55:30 <Friendship> Other things it comes with include: RAINBOW DASH
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20:24:19 <elliott> augur: Why are you claiming that you have a bijection between a countable set and an uncountable set?
20:30:42 <elliott> http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/qn7nk/whats_the_most_clever_piece_of_haskell_code_you/
20:32:23 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `type'
20:33:12 <oerjan> the cantor set has the same cardinality as R.
20:33:20 <elliott> Consider the function "binary digit at position N".
20:33:28 <elliott> It's an infinite stream of bits.
20:33:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeahyeahyeah, I get that, but something something something computability.
20:33:51 <elliott> Well, Haskell can't prove that all functions are computable.
20:34:01 <elliott> That's a property of the source encoding we use for Haskell programs.
20:34:19 <elliott> We can prove there are a countable number of Haskell programs, but not that there are a countable number of Haskell functions.
20:34:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: As in, from inside Haskell, not all functions are necessarily computable.
20:34:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: For example, you can use Cantor's diagonal argument in Coq.
20:35:06 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, yeah, but where is "inside Haskell"? (I'm not trying to be obtuse here.)
20:35:08 <elliott> Even though the sets in question are "countable" from the outside.
20:35:27 <elliott> "In Haskell" makes more sense if you think of like "In Coq"; "inside" the system.
20:35:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Like, e.g. Godel's theorem says you can't prove consistency and completeness "inside" a system.
20:35:54 <Phantom_Hoover> But I can read "in Coq" as "in the C-H logic corresponding to Coq".
20:36:08 <Phantom_Hoover> The logic corresponding to Haskell isn't a very interesting thing to be inside.
20:36:57 <elliott> You might not be being deliberately obtuse, but you are being kinda dense.
20:37:08 <elliott> I never claimed Haskell's type system is a consistent logic.
20:37:47 <elliott> The fact is, (Nat -> Bool) has a greater cardinality than Nat, even if you can prove otherwise based on external factors like program encoding.
20:37:57 <elliott> Obviously a Haskell function is not a Haskell program.
20:38:00 <Phantom_Hoover> I didn't say you did; I said why I was having trouble going from Coq to Haskell.
20:38:01 <elliott> Primitives, for instance, aren't Haskell prorgams.
20:38:31 <mroman> Haskell is the reason I study :)
20:38:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: diagonalise :: ((Nat -> Bool) -> Nat) -> (Nat -> Bool); diagonalise counter = counter (\n -> not (counter n n))
20:39:13 <mroman> But my study does not start until in three years.
20:39:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Give this function a proof that (Nat -> Bool) is countable, and it'll give you a (Nat -> Bool) it can't count.
20:39:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, the "proof" could easily be _|_ or whatever, but in that case diagonalise just returns _|_.
20:39:52 <elliott> The point is, you can prove that function, given an appropriate input, defeats the counter; and so |Nat -> Bool| > |Nat|.
20:39:58 <mroman> Because to study what you actually want to study, you have to study a lot of bullshit.
20:40:20 <Phantom_Hoover> This reminds me of the thing whereby you can diagonalise the computable reals, but the diagonalisation is itself not computable so you can't use it to construct a new CR.
20:41:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Backtracking to Coq again (hopefully you understand what I mean by "inside" now): Consider that Coq's axioms are a *subset* of classical logic.
20:41:51 <elliott> So, obviously, you *couldn't* prove that (nat -> bool) is countable, Coq-wise.
20:42:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Similarly, if you construct the computable reals in Coq, you won't be able to prove that all functions on them are continuous.
20:42:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: See also: http://r6research.livejournal.com/19619.html
20:47:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover has now abandoned his career in mathematics and is going to become a farmer.
20:47:56 <Phantom_Hoover> No; I'm just even more convinced not to talk to logicians.
20:48:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You just can't handle the truth.
20:49:33 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I can, it's just not as interesting as actual maths.
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20:54:35 * Phantom_Hoover remembers that period where he thought ais523 was a mathematician.
20:54:43 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I was!
20:55:24 <ais523> is there such a concept?
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20:56:58 * elliott notes that Phantom_Hoover thinks going from doing a degree in electrical engineering to a Ph.D. in computer science makes you less of a mathematician.
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21:02:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No, I didn't misping.
21:02:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Nonono, I mean I thought he was an actual, academic mathematician.
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21:03:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: So calculus is more pure-mathematics than logic?
21:04:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Your definition sucks.
21:04:40 <Phantom_Hoover> And doesn't ais523 research formally-verified compilers?
21:04:42 <elliott> ...yes, which is *very* pure, as far as matheamtics goes.
21:05:02 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: not really; I do prove that the algorithms behind the compilers are correct
21:05:13 <ais523> but I don't prove that the compilers that are intended to follow those algorithms actually do
21:05:18 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, yes, which is hardly more "pure" than proving $theorem is correct.
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21:07:05 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: would you call this a pure maths result?: given a set of equalities/inequalities, each of which is of one of the forms (a = b, a <= b, a <= b+c, a <= b*c), and all the unknowns are known to be nonnegative integers, it is decidable whether a given set has a solution or not
21:07:56 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, well, TbH, pure maths is a pretty useless concept; I was joking before.
21:08:25 <ais523> you didn't answer my question
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21:09:38 <Phantom_Hoover> It's definitely maths, yes; as I just said, pure maths is just an arbitrary line drawn for largely historical reasons.
21:09:57 * elliott can't understand why someone wouldn't find foundations interesting.
21:10:02 <elliott> Especially someone interested in esolangs.
21:10:27 <Phantom_Hoover> I find them interesting, but not as interesting as the things built upon them.
21:10:40 <ais523> elliott: "foundations" = ?
21:11:09 <ais523> well, I'm pretty happy that linear and affine logic were invented
21:11:17 <ais523> or Verity probably wouldn't exist
21:11:18 <elliott> ais523: logic, set theory, type theory, etc.
21:11:29 <elliott> literally, the foundations of mathematics
21:11:41 <ais523> I'm not convinced that they're useless at all
21:12:15 <elliott> to me, finding them uninteresting compared to other concepts in mathematics is like the people who say that every programming language is the same because they all have libraries :)
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21:15:10 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, they're obviously very useful, because you can't build without foundations, and they're interesting in their own right; I (personally) don't enjoy studying them as much as other things, but elliott seems to be veering towards declaring that they're the One True Path.
21:15:40 <elliott> No, I just think it's weird to exclude them.
21:15:56 <elliott> What would you think of a programmer completely uninterested in the programming languages they use?
21:16:02 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't think I excluded them once this turned serious?
21:16:28 <elliott> FWIW, you can build without foundations, as evidenced by the fact that mathematics existed before logic and set theory.
21:16:46 <elliott> Then the house falls down and you remember to build foundations first this time.
21:18:38 <Phantom_Hoover> I said that they're distinct from maths, because the general experience is different.
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21:35:31 <mroman> Aren't people using languages ONLY because of the library?
21:58:06 <ais523> one of the best reasons to use Perl
21:58:14 <ais523> because it has libraries that nothing else has
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22:22:03 <elliott> "Transmission WebTV is a port of the well-known Transmission BitTorrent and aMule programs to the WebTV Set-Top-Box."
22:22:32 * Sgeo suddenly nostalgias for WebTV
22:23:32 <nortti> when was it produced? Didn't it use early version of IE?
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23:13:56 <nortti> zzo38: how is your computret project going
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23:14:50 <zzo38> nortti: I have not done much at this time. When I have resources to do so, I will be able to do more. But for now they are mostly just ideas and plans and stuff, all of which is liable to be changed.
23:15:17 <zzo38> (I do have a few drawings which are publicly available, if you want to see it)
23:15:41 <oklofok> Friendship: you are pretty optimistic about the future of human civilization
23:16:35 <nortti> zzo38: what kind of cpu are you going to use in it? x86-16? x86-32? x86-64? ARM? MIPS32? MIPS64? m68k?
23:17:10 <zzo38> nortti: I don't know yet; probably ARM. Whatever is used, there should be free C compilers and free specifications (even if not the official ones).
23:17:18 <oklofok> today's morning lecture was about how you can program your own DNA strains and buy them online, and how easy it is to write programs that destroy cells.
23:18:12 <oklofok> (i asked the guy if i could actually do this stuff in my backyard (even though i naturally couldn't observe what's going on), and he said sure, although you do need some salt.)
23:18:27 <oklofok> (in addition to the DNA strains you can buy)
23:19:29 <oklofok> they have basically cured cancer in petri dishes with these, and the program is sort of trivial
23:20:00 <oklofok> a basic toeholding argument
23:20:03 <nortti> zzo38: I'd like to see the drawings
23:21:04 <zzo38> nortti: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/powerxy/images/Game_Control.png http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/powerxy/images/Remote_Control.png (USB keyboard will also be supported)
23:21:33 <oklofok> also it's basically trivial to do things like wang tiles, and they have sofar made boolean functions and a stackmachine with the small caveat that you need to have exactly one copy of the stack strain
23:21:57 <oklofok> the guy told that they wrote this program, and they did some simulations
23:22:04 <oklofok> and on the 50th run, they had a race condition
23:22:49 <oklofok> but we're all dead in a decade
23:23:35 <oklofok> also why haven't you people told me DNA computing is something you can ACTUALLY do
23:23:44 <oklofok> i'm not supposed to be the one that BRINGS something here
23:24:15 <ais523> oh, I've known about it for a while
23:24:53 <oklofok> i thought this was all still theoretical
23:25:27 <oklofok> but you can just start programming right away by putting straings of catg in a test tube
23:25:48 <oklofok> and they do exactly what you'd expect
23:27:14 <oklofok> (computation happens by pairing two strains up with the natural involution, and you can easily do tilings like that. to have dynamic behavior, i just know the toehold technique, and that's probably much harder. but building is easy.)
23:27:26 <oklofok> you can buy strains of length 70 online
23:27:52 <oklofok> i probably mean strand now that i think about it
23:28:11 <oklofok> although DNA strain also sounds great.
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23:37:04 <Friendship> <oklofok> Friendship: you are pretty optimistic about the future of human civilization // what can I say, I'm an optimist *shrugs*
23:37:17 <elliott> Where'd Friendship optimise
23:38:29 <Friendship> I implied that humanity will exist in three hundred thousand years.
23:39:58 <oklofok> yeah at thirty years i was like what is this guy smoking
23:40:24 -!- Canadarm has changed nick to Canadarm2.
23:40:49 <elliott> (This incredibly literate phrase means: Where)
23:44:14 <elliott> Depends how you interpret "us" I suppose
23:44:41 <oklofok> well the solar system itself might survive a couple of years
23:45:06 <oklofok> humanity maybe like 5 and the earth at most 20
23:46:24 <oklofok> the universe will go on for hundreds of years ofc, but it gets bored eventually, and nothingness replaces somethingness. and me and my buddy jesus deem this unfortunate but understandable and recreate it.
23:47:03 <coppro> don't forget the mothingness
23:47:05 <oklofok> and god is like STOP CREATING WORLDS I HAVEN'T SLEPT IN LIKE 14 BILLION YEARS OR WHATEVER'S THE CONJECTURE THESE DAYS
23:47:07 <elliott> I conclude that lightspeed in oklofok's reality is at most 200 miles per hour.
23:47:54 <oklofok> i don't think there are distances strictly longer than a kilometer
23:48:14 -!- Friendship has set topic: <oklofok> i don't think there are distances strictly longer than a kilometer | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/ has moved servers!.
23:55:35 <oklofok> ethical brain teaser: would you kill everyone and destroy everything if you could have EVERY cake
23:56:05 <Friendship> It's a trick question: If I destroyed everything, there would be no cake!
23:56:31 <oklofok> i'm trying to start a serious philosophical debate here
23:56:49 <oklofok> you think you know everything about cake do you
23:57:49 <oklofok> oh god there was this lecture on the physical church-turing thesis
23:58:16 <oklofok> WHY DO PEOPLE WANT TO MENTALLY MASTURBATE TO THIS KIND OF TRIVIALITIES
23:58:35 <oklofok> DON'T THEY EVER GET LIKE MENTAL PENIS CANCER FROM ALL THE RUBBING??
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23:59:19 <oklofok> i say something crude and someone leaves in tears
23:59:29 <oklofok> i should probably find religion or something