00:00:19 <oerjan> zzo38: yes, although with x axis rightwards and y axis up, those are sort of connected; does gloss have that?
00:00:46 <zzo38> oerjan: I don't know, but in my opinion it should.
00:01:39 <ais523> As a special case the 3-arg form with a read/write mode and the third argument being "undef": open(my $tmp, "+>", undef) or die ... opens a filehandle to an anonymous temporary file. Also using "+<" works for symmetry, but you really should consider writing something to the temporary file first.
00:02:02 <ais523> API documentation doesn't make me laugh very often…
00:03:23 <zzo38> oerjan: And yes I do agree it is connected
00:03:36 <oerjan> is elliott tired again
00:03:40 <elliott> falls over laughing, collapses, dies of laugh
00:03:51 <elliott> remembered for laugh for years to come
00:04:03 <elliott> wikipedia article categorised [[Category:Hexham laughers]]
00:04:18 <oerjan> elliott: it would work better if you had a webcam, i think
00:04:43 <Jafet> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7edeOEuXdMU
00:04:59 <zzo38> (I also dislike the function to convert the world to picture being IO, as in my opinion only the input and world step should be IO; but that is a minor thing)
00:06:18 <oerjan> #esoteric poll, why don't you have a webcam? (1) i'm too dead (2) i don't like talking with sound (3) i'm too ugly (4) i'm a pathological liar
00:06:36 <elliott> zzo38: that was justified on the bug tracker.
00:06:53 <elliott> oerjan: webcams dont do sound oerjan
00:06:58 <oerjan> ((5) all of the above)
00:07:09 <oerjan> elliott: oh right. (6) i don't do sign language
00:07:23 <zzo38> elliott: I know; I did read the bug tracker.
00:10:43 <zzo38> And why does InWindow require a position? The computer's windowing system should set its position.
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00:16:07 <elliott> 30 upvotes in one day. how. why. the answer wasn't. *that* good
00:18:18 <zzo38> Maybe it was good to thirty people, that may be why.
00:25:54 <ais523> $subs->{"\$$_"} = eval "\$$_" for 1..9;
00:26:05 <ais523> I still contend that this is better than the alternative without eval
00:26:10 <ais523> and blame Perl for not using an array for that
00:26:33 <ais523> oerjan: I have a webcam, but don't know how to use it, or if the system even has drivers for it
00:27:33 <oerjan> IMPLAUSIBLE, I PUT THAT AS A (4)
00:28:24 <elliott> someone tell me to sleep please. thank you
00:29:21 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Sandbox/td http://esolangs.org/wiki/Sandbox/tr why do these pages exist
00:29:29 <elliott> why does timwi not know what the esolang namespace is
00:29:39 <elliott> ais523: can you expurgate them :(
00:30:13 <elliott> but i've done so many deletions lately, so many
00:30:24 <ais523> btw, Sandbox is totally a good name for an esolang
00:30:26 <elliott> infinity% the deletions i did before february in fact
00:30:41 <elliott> i'm worried that if i delete too many more pages i'll become mad with power and invent the next esme
00:30:45 <oerjan> _____ _ _ ___ ___ _____ _____ ____ _ _____ _____ ____ _
00:30:46 <oerjan> | ____| | | | |_ _/ _ \_ _|_ _| / ___|| | | ____| ____| _ \| |
00:30:46 <oerjan> | _| | | | | | | | | || | | |(_) \___ \| | | _| | _| | |_) | |
00:30:46 <oerjan> | |___| |___| |___ | | |_| || | | | _ ___) | |___| |___| |___| __/|_|
00:30:46 <oerjan> |_____|_____|_____|___\___/ |_| |_|(_) |____/|_____|_____|_____|_| (_)
00:30:48 <elliott> and replace all links on the wiki with links to it
00:30:53 <elliott> that's why you have to delete them instead
00:31:36 <elliott> ais523: btw, i was thinking we might want to disable the rules in the spam-blacklist temporarily as a honeypot so we can block more spammers (leading to their later deletion)
00:33:37 <elliott> since i'd like to do all the deletions in one go and wipe out as many of the spammers as possible
00:34:19 <oerjan> that would sort of require the spammers reusing old accounts predictably fast...
00:34:39 <elliott> oerjan: the reason we added the rules to the blacklist is because the spammers kept reusing accounts.
00:35:14 <oerjan> elliott: can't you get the blacklist to log the username blocked? >:)
00:35:52 <elliott> oerjan: no, spamblacklist doesn't really have any features
00:36:00 <elliott> i suspect because it was designed for Wikimedia levels of traffic
00:36:10 <elliott> ais523: could we set up similar rules in the abusefilter that auto-block with an override thing?
00:36:18 <elliott> i worry that the code for the rule would be baroque.
00:36:39 <ais523> but I'm too tired to write them right now
00:37:06 <elliott> ais523: oh, I'll have a go at writing them tomorrow if it's feasible
00:39:16 <elliott> oerjan: rule 1. im gonig to sleep now
00:39:29 <elliott> rule 3. the first person to say ais523 wins
00:39:46 <ais523> it's my name, so you pinged me
00:39:54 <ais523> not sure if I was the first person ever to say it, though
00:40:00 <ais523> that's not much of a prize
00:40:15 <oerjan> buddhists consider it the _best_ prize
00:40:38 <elliott> buddhists "real fans of the elder scrolls"
00:40:52 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Wed Mar 28 01:40:55
00:41:17 <elliott> ais523: i forget how time works, is it really later than 01:40 or really earlier
00:41:26 <oerjan> @AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaa
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00:41:27 <elliott> the clocks changed to be wrong but i forget how
00:41:36 <elliott> yay, i am absolved of guilt
00:42:08 <elliott> anyway, wake me up if anything interesting happens
00:44:07 <zzo38> Don't you know that the solar time is the hour angle of the sun in the opposite direction through the Earth?
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00:47:54 <oerjan> it was quiet. too quiet.
00:49:59 * oerjan thinks Special:Random suspiciously often hits articles he's recently edited already
00:50:41 <RocketJSquirrel> oerjan: I think there are suspiciously fewer pages on the wiki than you intuit.
00:50:43 <oerjan> with 1034 articles, i don't think the birthday paradox should apply _this_ often...
00:51:50 <oerjan> oh hm it does get cumulative, i guess
00:52:57 <oerjan> but i just hit http://esolangs.org/wiki/Real_Fast_Nora%27s_Hair_Salon_3:_Shear_Disaster_Download, one of our (maybe _the_) newest articles
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01:24:00 <oerjan> i think some here may find this interesting: http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/The-GNU-C-Library-Steering-Committee-disbands-1484707.html
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01:25:42 <oerjan> "Ulrich Drepper, who, according to the glibc web site, has had "overall responsibility for maintenance and development" of the project up until now, is absent from this list."
02:01:36 <zzo38> A few minutes ago I was playing a pinball game. I lost eight balls quickly, but then got an extra ball and was able to score more points. (There is normally nine balls per game, in this table)
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02:15:16 <ion> I thought you didn’t like using balls in a pinball game, but instead remove the glass panel and trigger the sensors by hand.
02:17:41 <zzo38> ion: What is the game if there are no balls? Then it is not a pinball game. But I do play tables that lack flippers.
02:19:50 <zzo38> According to Jack Chick, the "IHS" on Catholic communion wafers stands for the Egyptian trinity Isis, Horus, and Seb; Roman Catholics worship multiple Jesuses; record companies that sell rock music put a curse on every record before it is sold; gluons do not exist; science and everything else is just another kind of religion; and vampires can be born and then not eat or drink for ten years.
02:36:32 <kmc> i'm amused that some religious fundamentalists (e.g. conservapedia) are strongly pro-quantum and anti-relativity
02:36:53 <kmc> because relativity == moral relativism, plus einstein was an atheist jew
02:37:06 <kmc> whereas quantum indeterminism proves that the will of god is active in the world today
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04:07:40 <Sgeo_> And it's only some HTML5 videos crashing me.
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04:30:01 <zzo38> Why do they judge a theory by the religion of who invented it? I suppose some people may say quantum indeterminism *suggests* that the will of God active in the world today (but you still have to be careful that it matches the mathematics, and regardless this is now philosophy and not science); it certainly does not *prove* it (at least in my opinion).
04:30:47 <zzo38> kmc: Also see that much of Jack Chick's things are even more illogical than the things you are mentioning
04:32:05 <zzo38> He even gets things wrong such as what side of the room something will be on.
04:36:22 <Sgeo_> Although, as a kid, I thought maybe God acted via quantum indeterminism, since I couldn't see any other mechanism for God to act.
04:36:24 <kmc> sigh, some versions of clang don't die on unrecognized flags, even with -Werror
04:37:58 <zzo38> Sgeo_: I think that is a valid philosophy, but it isn't science to say God acted via this or that or whatever. Nor does it necessarily mean it is true.
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05:09:35 <zzo38> Please complain about this.
05:09:48 <zzo38> And then stop complaining about this.
05:09:55 <zzo38> And then continue to complain about this.
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05:13:15 <zzo38> OK, which one do you want, please?
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12:53:00 <elliott> I really wish they'd kick people in #haskell who get two clear directions to stop and read a tutorial and ignore them.
12:58:10 <elliott> Hugs doesn't implement the restriction stated in the report (section 4.3.1) that the type of member functions may only add constraints to the type variables which are local to the member. Thus Hugs accepts this program without reporting an error:
12:58:11 <elliott> class C a where f :: Eq a => a
12:58:16 <elliott> what a weird-ass restriction
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13:22:09 <elliott> The GNU C Library Steering Committee disbands (h-online.com)
13:22:24 <elliott> [[McGrath, who is the initial founder of the project, will be leading the development of the project together with Joseph Myers and Carlos O'Donell. Ulrich Drepper, who, according to the glibc web site, has had "overall responsibility for maintenance and development" of the project up until now, is absent from this list. In his email, McGrath thanks both Drepper and Jakub Jelinek, a member of the disbanded committee, for their years of work on th
13:22:24 <elliott> e project but, like Jelinek, other former members of the Steering Committee are not part of the new governance group.
13:22:29 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: pikhq: woah!!!
13:24:43 <elliott> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/rgrx5/the_gnu_c_library_steering_committee_disbands/c45q12q?context=2
13:30:30 -!- delicado has joined.
13:31:37 <elliott> and also other esoteric programming languages, too
13:31:41 <HackEgo> delicado: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
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15:55:30 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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15:58:18 <GhostHand> She is good at singing in the shower
16:01:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Waitwaitwait, Bulwer-Lytton came up with the phrases "the pen is mightier than the sword" and "the unwashed masses".
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16:10:14 <Taneb> Can anyone recommend a text-based OS? I've got a computer without a working mouse, and I want it to be usefuk
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16:10:46 <elliott> just install linux and put a tiling WM on, plus vimperator or conkeror or whatever
16:11:38 <Taneb> The computer's over 10 years old, btw
16:12:56 <Taneb> Also, elliott, re: Talk:Categorization, I have in the past wanted to browse languages by there interactiveness
16:13:12 <elliott> Taneb: Yes, but you're weird.
16:13:25 <Taneb> Yeah, but so are you
16:13:51 <Taneb> Other than that, this channel's mostly normal
16:14:19 <Taneb> (this when I was looking for languages to make an IRC bot in)
16:15:17 <Taneb> OK, this computer doesn't meet the requirements for Arch
16:15:56 <Phantom_Hoover> "As a member of the Estates-General, of the Constituent Assembly and of the Jacobin Club, he defended the abolition of slavery and of the death penalty, he supported equality of rights, universal suffrage and the establishment of a republic. He opposed war with Austria and the possibility of a coup by La Fayette. As a member of the Committee of Public Safety, he was instrumental in the period of the Revolution commonly k
16:15:56 <Phantom_Hoover> nown as the Reign of Terror, which ended a few months after his arrest and execution in July 1794."
16:16:04 <elliott> Taneb: The requirements are kind of irrelevant, but here:
16:16:17 <elliott> Taneb: http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/daily-builds/daily/arch-latest/i386/iso-cd/debian-testing-i386-netinst.iso
16:16:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "His supporters called him "The Incorruptible", while his adversaries called him dictateur sanguinaire (bloodthirsty dictator)."
16:18:13 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: microcosm can now launch its own native GCC on multiple OSes.
16:21:27 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I thought microcosm was dead.
16:23:41 <Taneb> elliott, this computer doesn't have internet connection, is that okay?
16:25:13 <RocketJSquirrel> I think that any definition of "useful" that allows computers without Internet connections needs careful reconsideration.
16:26:26 <Taneb> If in this ISO there is the drivers for the wifi thingy I am using...
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16:30:55 <Taneb> Okay, I have no idea how to boot from CD
16:31:26 -!- Jafet has joined.
16:33:11 <Taneb> So... I'm on the setup menu (before the Windows 98 flag shows)
16:33:59 <Taneb> The sections are: Standard CMOS setup; BIOS features setup; chipset features setup; power management setup; pnp/pci configuration
16:34:13 <Taneb> Load BIOS defaults; load setup defaults; integrated peripherals
16:34:28 <Taneb> Supervisor password; user password; IDE HDD auto detection;
16:34:36 <elliott> <Taneb> elliott, this computer doesn't have internet connection, is that okay?
16:34:43 <Taneb> save & exit setup; exit without saving
16:34:58 <elliott> And it'll be BIOS features perhaps.
16:35:06 <elliott> You'll find something about boot order.
16:35:16 <elliott> It could be that the computer is so old it can't boot from CD.
16:35:23 <elliott> If that's the case, it'll still be possible, just a little trickier.
16:36:43 <Taneb> Virus warning; CPU internal cache; external cache; CPU write allocate; quick power on self test; boot sequence; vga boot from; swap floppy drive;
16:36:43 <Taneb> boot up floppy seek; boot up numlock status; boot up system speed
16:36:43 <Taneb> gate a20 option; security option
16:36:54 <Taneb> PCI/VGA palette snoop
16:37:04 <Taneb> OS Select for DRAM > 64MB
16:37:13 <Taneb> HDD S.M.A.R.T. capability
16:37:22 <Taneb> Report no FDD for Win 95
16:37:26 <Taneb> Video BIOS Shaddow
16:37:37 <Taneb> And a whole bunch of other shadows
16:37:57 <Taneb> (And I'm pretty sure it can boot from CD, otherwise the Windows 98 SE CD we have somewhere would be useless
16:40:36 <elliott> And no, that came with a floppy to boot it, IIRC, although maybe I'm wrong
16:46:22 <Taneb> I've definitely got a CD
16:49:25 <Taneb> In the Boot Sequence menu, I set it to "CDROM, A, C"
16:50:51 <elliott> how did you burn the debian cdrom
16:51:05 <Taneb> Using the thing that popped up
16:51:30 <Taneb> Onto the CD that had less than 650 MB memory
16:53:13 <Taneb> They're 650 MB CDs
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17:42:05 <nortti> ugh. TenFourFox started to hang on startup and grind my system to halt
17:46:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh for I have to use date to get it to acknowledge BST?
17:50:36 <olsner> not people, but apparently phantom hoovers do
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17:58:58 <Phantom_Hoover> When they inexplicably don't automatically set the hour forward or back, then yes.
18:00:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Have fun with that if you're running ntp
18:00:22 <oerjan> I DON'T WANT A TURING-COMPLETE DEVICE ON MY ARM *ignores cell phone and babbles incoherently. wait, my cell phone also doesn't change automatically...*
18:01:06 <elliott> oerjan: it's also not turing complete
18:01:20 <fizzie> elliott: oerjan's phone has an infinite tape attached.
18:01:28 <oerjan> elliott: WHO KNOWS IT MIGHT BE CONNECTED TO AN INFINITE MEMORY RUN BY THE CIA
18:01:31 <fizzie> (People keep stumbling over it.)
18:02:13 <oerjan> elliott: also, incoherently babbling people don't know such details.
18:04:46 <oerjan> if my phone had an infinite tape for TC-ness, it would have to move along it, because lightspeed prevents the tape from moving fast enough without getting cluttered because it won't know _which_ way to move because halting problem and lightspeed.
18:05:33 <oerjan> (by cluttered i mean collapsing into a black hole, probably around my phone)
18:06:21 <elliott> thank you oerjan. that was *almost* science
18:08:20 <elliott> WHY DO PEOPLE COME INTO #HASKELL ASKING ABOUT WHAT MONADS ARE
18:08:22 <elliott> REFUSE TO LEARN ANY HASKELL
18:08:33 <elliott> FUCK YOU! THIS IS #HASKELL!
18:08:36 <oerjan> or wait, does lightspeed and relativity mean it _could_ move fast enough because length contraction
18:09:00 <elliott> oerjan: you're a #haskell op right
18:09:04 <elliott> please join and ban everyone
18:09:18 <olsner> but really, the whole tape isn't moving just because you pull on it on one end
18:09:41 <oerjan> olsner: i'd be assuming it had some kind of propulsion
18:10:12 <fizzie> Tug-of-war at the two ends of the infinite tape.
18:10:56 <oklopol> the propulsion would travel at the speed of sound
18:11:33 * oerjan isn't sure oklopol knows what propulsion is.
18:11:34 <oklopol> but if the tape can, say, stretch twice as long everywhere, does it necessarily snap if you make the tm move really slow?
18:12:12 <oklopol> i just assumed you just used some random word for the obvious physical way you would implement this
18:12:30 <oerjan> no no. tape with ion engines, that's the ticket.
18:12:48 <oklopol> (that's how _i_ usually implement infinite tapes at least.)
18:12:52 <fizzie> Let's that have the phone move along the tape, I'm sure oerjan won't have any reservations about going where the computation goes.
18:13:31 <elliott> the earth is actually a speck of dust on a gigantic infinite tape
18:13:35 <elliott> moving along with a cell phone
18:13:39 <elliott> and a gigantic oerjan carrying it
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18:27:42 <Taneb> My phone is merely linear bounded :(
18:33:56 <oerjan> i used to have a phone bound to a line, too
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18:38:18 <oerjan> <Taneb> Other than that, this channel's mostly normal <-- VILE SLANDER
18:40:18 <Taneb> Phantom Hoover is the only person in Edinburgh I know, so I'm using him as a standard Edinburger
18:40:31 <Taneb> Also, all the Finns I've ever encountered are on this channel
18:40:39 <Taneb> So I assume they're normal Finns
18:40:48 <Taneb> Same with Swedes and Norwegians, come to thing of it
18:42:05 <Taneb> fungot, you're a normal fungot, right?
18:42:05 <fungot> Taneb: mr president, thank you for your understanding.
18:42:19 <Taneb> No, thank you, fungot.
18:42:20 <fungot> Taneb: mr president, my dear friends, let us take it at its word... ( the president cut the speaker off)
18:42:29 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl* ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
18:42:47 <fungot> Selected style: discworld (a subset of Terry Pratchett's Discworld books)
18:42:56 <Taneb> fungot, now you're normal, right?
18:42:57 <fungot> Taneb: " just as well take his chances with a fnord carrying off a vasung woman a few hundred feet below she saw a patch of empty air. there wasn't much of a mess of beans cooking,' he said.
18:43:12 <Taneb> See, oerjan, perfectly normal
18:49:48 <fungot> Selected style: speeches (misc. speeches from Project Gutenberg)
18:49:58 <fungot> elliott: the first question, suddenly disappeared; and the question of the right honourable gentleman the secretary of state for india. in this manner with his connections, he is perfectly logical if there is a shout, among the greeks, in romance. froissart was our herodotus. italy was to europe what athens was to greece. in italy, and the uses of the influences of heaven itself are in that country. his words are fnord king or
18:50:05 <fizzie> No, it's not new. It's not very good either.
18:50:12 <fungot> Selected style: qwantz (Dinosaur Comics transcriptions 2003-2011)
18:50:15 <fungot> elliott: i i guess what, dromiceiomimus? i don't see a punchline, and that of all the things that will e, or are they the shadows of the things that will e, or are they the shadows of the things that will e, or are they the shadows of the things that will e, or are they the shadows of the things that will e, or are they the shadows of the things that will e, or are they the shadows of the things that will e, or are they the sha
18:50:19 <fizzie> I like the "(the president cut the speaker off)" bit.
18:54:18 <elliott> fizzie: What's the best UK ISP???
18:59:33 <fizzie> Uh... Andrews & Arnold?
18:59:52 <fizzie> ""Andrews & Arnold Ltd (also known as AAISP) is an Internet service provider based in Bracknell in the United Kingdom founded in 1997 and launched in 1998[1], primarily serving businesses and "technical" home users.[2]
18:59:56 <fizzie> In 2009 the company was judged the best niche provider in the Thinkbroadband Customer Service Awards, based on customer ratings.[3]
19:00:00 <fizzie> The company's owner, RevK, stated in a blog post that as of October 2010 the company is "XKCD/806" compliant, referring to XKCD comic number 806. This means that technical support callers who say the code word "shibboleet" will be transferred to a technical support representative who knows at least two programming languages, and presumably can offer more useful advice than a standard tech support script.[4][5]"
19:00:17 <fizzie> (I just picked the one not-completely-commercial sounding ISP that was mentioned on the UK paragraph of the IPv6 page.)
19:00:28 <fizzie> Where "commercial" == "for companies" in the above.
19:00:49 <elliott> fizzie: Those are one of the ones I'm considering, yes.
19:00:54 <elliott> (Also the only IPv6 one I'm considering.)
19:01:13 <fizzie> I don't know anything about UK ISPs, so...
19:02:16 <fizzie> Their usage-based pricing scheme seems slightly complicated to me.
19:04:07 <olsner> so, can cabal-install still only build packages using one cpu?
19:04:27 <oerjan> itt: the turing-complete pricing scheme
19:05:19 <elliott> (FWIW, the other ISPs I'm considering are Zen, Xilo, and if I'm feeling ~sellout~ Sky and O2 (both of which seem to be the least bad "commercialised" providers; Sky is cheap (7.50 pounds/mo) since we already have TV with them, and neither shapes or throttles torrent traffic).)
19:05:30 <elliott> (This will help fizzie advise me, as he is an expert on UK ISPs.)
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19:07:20 <olsner> http://stackoverflow.com/a/7872263/176315 suggests it is actually on its way somewhere, in some form
19:07:35 <elliott> olsner: it's not merged yt
19:08:03 <fizzie> Incidentally, we had a building-management-company (I don't know the proper term; the "corporation" made out from people owning apartments in this building, that negotiates things like maintenance and utilities and whatever) meeting today, turns out the one ISP which asked whether they could FTTB the building, and got permission, actually never bothered. On the other hand, the other ISP (our current) who actually did fiber us up apparently didn't bother t
19:08:22 <oerjan> SchrodingersCat: it's undefined behavior.
19:08:51 <olsner> I just realized my other computer (this one) had a woefully out-of-date haskell setup that required a bunch of annoying upgrades and cabal building, would've been almost instant if it could use more than one cpu
19:08:57 <fizzie> SchrodingersCat: Because: "Between the previous and next sequence point an object shall have its stored value modified at most once by the evaluation of an expression. Furthermore, the prior value shall be accessed only to determine the value to be stored."
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19:10:07 <fizzie> The left side is an access that is not used to determine the value to be stored.
19:11:09 <fizzie> (T=X,T==X++) with a suitably typed T is defined and likely to be true, though I suppose maybe not if X isnan.
19:11:22 <fizzie> elliott: Didn't bother to actually tell the company-doing-the-technical-maintenance-stuff-for-us that they were going to.
19:11:41 <fizzie> SchrodingersCat: x=x++ is almost the most canonical example of undefined behaviour due to the sequence point rule.
19:11:48 <elliott> fizzie: The problem with tech-savvy ISPs is that they're scary.
19:11:55 <elliott> fizzie: It's much easier to talk to someone incompetent, you know?
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19:13:06 <shachaf> elliott: "monple" sounds pretty good.
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19:17:34 <fizzie> "3.3: I've experimented with the code int i = 3; i = i++; on several compilers. Some gave i the value 3, and some gave 4. Which compiler is correct?" "A: There is no correct answer; the expression is undefined. See questions 3.1, 3.8, 3.9, and 11.33."
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19:20:06 <elliott> fizzie: Which is best: AAISP, Zen, or Xilo?
19:22:35 <fizzie> They all have their pros and cons. Xilo sounds like a Linux bootloader the most, but it also has some vaguely scientologey Xenu connotations. Zen is just one letter from "zem", but it's *also* not far from Xenu. Finally, AAISP turns all your website graphics into ascii art using AAlib.
19:24:54 <oerjan> stay away from AIISP, it's trying to take over the world.
19:25:08 <elliott> fizzie: What about Sky? How does THAT fit into the picture?
19:25:14 <elliott> N.B. appending "net" will be boring.
19:25:53 <oerjan> don't use those, they tend to terminate you at the slightest provocation.
19:28:09 <nortti> what are those? Quick googling did't reveal anything worth a value
19:28:30 <elliott> I'm, how do the kids call it: "switching".
19:29:07 <elliott> fizzie: Thanks. That's the most helpful yet.
19:29:45 <fizzie> It's like being Red, except about a 120 degrees to the left.
19:29:54 <shachaf> Next time I need to make a decision, I'll possibly ask fizzie about it.
19:30:03 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Does Google run JS?
19:30:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait why does elliott even control his household broadband,.
19:31:04 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: you don't _really_ think a 16 year old can be that smart, do you?
19:31:57 <shachaf> elliott's been saying that he's 16 for several years now, fizzie. How could you forget?
19:32:05 <oerjan> obviously he's really 34.
19:32:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's quite easy to control the broadband supplier if you have a monopoly on tech support.
19:32:27 <fizzie> No, I just mean, last time I recall it being discussed, a while ago, it was something like one. Or maybe minus one. Anyway, less than that.
19:32:36 <elliott> fizzie: I had a few birthdays.
19:32:48 <fizzie> I guess you must have! What, four per year or something?
19:32:56 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I know a guy in real life whose dad is an IT security specialist.
19:33:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That guy probably does not control his broadband supplier.
19:33:25 <Taneb> I know a guy in real life whose dad is a PROFESSOR OF COMPUTER SCIENCE
19:33:31 <elliott> Anyway, the current supplier wants a new 12 month contract signed.
19:33:36 <Taneb> That doesn't have much to do with anything
19:33:37 <elliott> But they let slip that we have ADSL2 now.
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19:34:59 <shachaf> fizzie: What did I do to deserve elliott's wrath?
19:35:42 <Phantom_Hoover> <fizzie> I guess you must have! What, four per year or something?
19:36:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Silly fizzie, you're confusing old person years with proper years.
19:36:03 <nortti> shachaf: what is wrong with ADSLZ
19:36:37 <shachaf> The A is what's wrong with it.
19:36:37 <fizzie> I think I was sort of the primus motor for our "Personal EUnet" dialup in... 1996? Though strictly as an advising party.
19:37:23 <fizzie> Yeah, VDSL2 is a lot better; it's equally asymmetric, but at least it doesn't have that unsightly A.
19:37:24 <nortti> I hate android onscreen keyboard.Too easy to make typos
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19:38:24 <fizzie> ∀DSL, the universal DSL.
19:40:05 <nortti> Is there something wrong with surfing the net using HSCSD?
19:43:09 <fizzie> Not if you're very patient?
19:43:53 <fizzie> I guess depending on contracts and such possibly you may also need to be rich.
19:45:18 <nortti> HSCSD is circuit switched data over GSM networks, preceding the packed switched GPRS
19:45:57 <elliott> thank you for that information, i'm sure fizzie didn't know
19:46:09 <fizzie> It's also not exactly fast (thus patient), and might cost a lot more than GPRS (thus rich).
19:47:33 <fizzie> I vaguely recall someone saying with his GSM contract, HSCSD was a lot cheaper than packet data, though.
19:47:58 <nortti> I have unlimited calls with fixed price and HSCSD is counted as normal call
19:49:25 <nortti> People that know what it means usualy give me weird looks when I explain to them that my Nokia 9210 is connecting using HSCSD
19:49:49 <fizzie> Yes, something like that. It doesn't always count as a regular call, though; it didn't in some pre-GPRS days.
19:50:18 <fizzie> Also this five-day forecast for Helsinki is saying that it's going to be 32700°C "warm" starting from Saturday.
19:51:01 <nortti> is sun starting to expand already?
19:51:37 <elliott> fizzie: Well, that *is* warm.
19:52:07 <Taneb> You know the time when I went to the UV rave, fell asleep, and dreamt of lambda calculus?
19:52:13 <fizzie> The sun/cloud/rain/whatever icon is also the broken picture image.
19:52:40 <elliott> fizzie: I think you should evacuate.
19:52:42 <Taneb> Apparently someone slapped me really hard
19:52:47 <Taneb> And I didn't feel a thing
19:52:54 <Taneb> (I was completely sober)
19:53:03 <oerjan> fizzie: they probably swapped it with the alderaan forecast
19:53:17 <Taneb> oerjan, nah, that was a long time ago
19:55:10 <oerjan> Taneb: Y-1000000000 error?
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19:57:07 <oerjan> fizzie: mind you if 32700°C is itself an overflow error, you may want to prepare for -68°C temperature
19:58:44 <fizzie> They did warn about cold nights, earlier.
19:58:55 <oerjan> `frink 72 degrees fahrenheit -> degrees celsius
19:59:10 <HackEgo> Warning: undefined symbol "fahrenheit". \ Warning: undefined symbol "celsius". \ Warning: undefined symbol "celsius". \ Warning: undefined symbol "celsius". \ Warning: undefined symbol "fahrenheit". \ Warning: undefined symbol "celsius". \ Unconvertable expression: \ 1.2566370614359172952 fahrenheit (undefined symbol) -> 0.017453292519943295767 celsius (undefined symbol)
19:59:27 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: sanetemp: not found
19:59:36 <elliott> oerjan: that's not how you do temp conevrsions with frink
19:59:39 <elliott> since the conversion isn't linear
20:00:27 <Taneb> That's awfully precise
20:00:41 <Taneb> Depending on your point of view
20:00:57 <oerjan> there _is_ an exact conversion factor, so...
20:01:28 <Taneb> I meant the long stream of 2
20:01:43 <fizzie> oerjan: Speaking of weather, our Norway trip is fast approaching, while you people are being all "men i øyeblikket ser det ut for at Lofoten får snøpåske". I don't want to drive in snow. :/
20:03:55 <fizzie> Couldn't you, I don't know, do something about it? Turn up the heat or something?
20:04:55 <nortti> fizzie: what does snøpåske mean. I think snø means snow, but what does påske mean?
20:06:21 <elliott> fizzie: ISP expert: I forget, is there any reason to go for an LLUing ISP over one that doesn't if they're otherwise equal? ISTR that the LLU lines are generally less crappy.
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20:10:29 <oerjan> no, påske is this time when we close norway for foreigners because we want all the snow to ourselves. sorry.
20:11:01 <fizzie> Well, that sounds feasible, though I really don't know. I mean, it sounds like more of an administrative/policy thing than an actual technical difference.
20:11:37 <elliott> fizzie: I know, I know. I just hear all about "oh, so-and-so-big-ISP's BT services are absolutely awful, traffic shaping and all of that, but nobody on LLU complains".
20:12:52 <fizzie> I guess it's certainly possible. But I hope you're not expecting anything more useful than the sky-is-blue comment.
20:14:26 <elliott> fizzie: Here's the secret: I AM
20:16:09 <fizzie> Well, okay, here's something. If you get a LLU thing, and then laugh a lot, you'll get a natural high. Since you're going all HA and LLU. At least that's the word at the water cooler. (Isn't that a thing they say? I think that's a thing they say.)
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20:22:14 <Taneb> Apparently, I provide an alternative male perspective
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20:23:49 <oerjan> Taneb: that's just what the girls say to be polite
20:24:11 <Taneb> It's in my school report
20:26:20 <monqy> what is an alternative male perspective
20:26:27 <elliott> who doesn't offer an alternative male perspective
20:27:32 <Taneb> I believe it's because I'm the only male in a class studying Ovid's Amores
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20:34:41 <elliott> fizzie: Can you explain sheep?
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20:37:15 * oerjan seems to recall he once was the only male in a dancing class. there was another one, but he dropped out.
20:37:35 <Taneb> This could be the first piece of music I've heard and actively disliked in MONTHS
20:39:59 <elliott> oerjan: whats th best uk isp
20:40:05 <Taneb> I may even give it a thumbs down on Youtube
20:42:44 <oerjan> elliott: virgin, because space.
20:44:04 <Taneb> As someone with significant interest in BA, go with virgin
20:44:27 <oerjan> (1) virgin is a uk isp (2) virgin is a spaceflight company (3) ALL YOUR OBJECTIONS TO (1) AND (2) ARE IRRELEVANT
20:45:06 <Taneb> (3) virgin is an airline
20:45:12 <Taneb> (4) virgin is a bank
20:45:26 <Taneb> (5) virgin is a mobile network
20:45:28 <oerjan> (3) IS ALREADY TAKEN YOU DOLT
20:45:33 <elliott> http://revk.www.me.uk/2012/03/getting-out-of-hand.html I like AAISP's style, complaining about their problem customers on a blog
20:45:45 <Taneb> (6) now there are three threes
20:45:58 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
20:46:40 <elliott> http://revk.www.me.uk/2012/03/levelling.html
20:46:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Talk me out of buying internet service from a company managed by someone who plays WoW.
20:46:58 <elliott> It is going to be so difficult for you
20:47:14 <fizzie> elliott: Also an XKCD fan, right?
20:48:08 <oerjan> fizzie: good counterargument
20:48:13 <elliott> http://revk.www.me.uk/2012/03/bad-timing.html Also complaining about his brother complaining about his ISP's service on his blog.
20:48:53 <oerjan> that's how it goes, you join because he's a geek just to find he's actually drepper.
20:50:04 <fizzie> oerjan: Is that like "a drepper"?
20:50:15 <fizzie> Is it a noun like that.
20:50:51 <fizzie> Do the carpets match the drepper?
20:51:12 <oerjan> they're blood red, so yes
20:51:33 <oerjan> (note: that's blood as in die, not dye)
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20:53:49 * oerjan wonders if there's a list of most frightening real geeks somewhere
20:54:55 <elliott> fizzie: Can you figure out this LLU thing? :(
20:59:45 <fizzie> I suppose if you get a "techie" ISP it works better if they get more unfettered access to deliver your bits instead of just purchasing bit-delivery services (using their DSLAMs and whatever) from whoever does your local telephone lines badly. But who am I to know? Does your area get any fancy FTT<something>s?
21:00:17 <oerjan> elliott: http://revk.www.me.uk/2010/09/copyright.html seems rather disturbing
21:02:04 <elliott> fizzie: I think we're meant to get FTTCabinet sometime "soon".
21:02:11 <elliott> fizzie: It's kind of: rural.
21:02:16 <elliott> Taneb: What ISP do *you* use?
21:02:40 <elliott> fizzie: Also, "whoever"? It's just BT.
21:02:41 <Taneb> If TalkTalk's an ISP, then that one
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21:05:41 <elliott> I guess I'll go with either Sky, AAISP or Zen.
21:07:20 <elliott> Taneb: *BSkyB, yes. They're cheap since we already have their TV service, and don't throttle or shape traffic.
21:07:30 <elliott> So they're the only big ISP I'm considering.
21:08:11 <Taneb> The only reason I don't like them is the same reason I don't like the Times, and I read the Tiems
21:08:36 <elliott> Is that reason: News Corporation?
21:09:47 <Taneb> I'm afraid of huge multi-faceted corporations
21:09:52 <Taneb> But I still use them
21:10:01 <Taneb> Because imagine not using them
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21:12:38 <zzo38> In the Dungeons & Dragons there was a maze of walls that you can stand on top of; below that is a hole. There is a light in one place, and is otherwise too dark to see the entire maze. Luckily the maze had no illusions and was not rotating! (I suggested next time he make up the campaign with the maze that is also rotating and has illusions in it.)
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21:22:21 <elliott> "Be have targets for loss and latency and jitter in their network making it clear that they are prepared to operate an uncongested network. BT do not."
21:29:00 <elliott> fizzie: Apparently A&A bill... lunarly.
21:29:01 <elliott> "Lunar monthly: Invoices are issued each full moon for the period to the day before the next full moon. Prices are based on 97% of our monthly rate for each lunar cycle."
21:29:20 <elliott> "For lunar billing, lunar months are considered 29 or 30 days based the full moon being the first day of the lunar month, and so each day is 1/29th or 1/30th of its lunar cycle."
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21:32:04 <fizzie> That's a clear pro in my book.
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21:33:01 <fizzie> Is the 97%-per-lunar-cycle a better or a worse deal than a calendar month price in the long run?
21:33:07 <HackEgo> larsrh: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
21:35:59 <zzo38> Instead of counting the days, you could change it to payment at every new moon, which allows you to use a chart like this one to determine when to pay: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_14/chinese-new-year.png
21:36:33 <elliott> fizzie: I don't like how much less you get in peak time, though. That's pretty much the only thing keeping me from going with AAISP. :(
21:37:24 <elliott> (A unit gets you 2.5 gigs 9am-6pm mon-fri but 50 gigs at all other times except 2am-6am which is 1000 gigs.)
21:40:27 <zzo38> If you set the harmonic factor to 2, then the lines will cross at both the full moon and at the new moon. But if you could instead plot Moon+180 degrees in a harmonic factor 1, the lines would cross at only the full moon, but Astrolog has no such feature.
21:41:35 <elliott> fizzie: That's weird, right? :'(
21:51:48 <fizzie> It does sound kinda weird, yes.
21:55:30 <zzo38> I have used the timed exposure feature of Astrolog to plot both the first harmonic and second harmonic in different colors on the same page.
21:55:40 <elliott> fizzie: Can you lend me some of your Finnish gigabytes/
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22:24:10 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: which is best uk isp thx
22:24:42 <lambdabot> http://www.ispreview.co.uk/talk/showthread.php/30936-The-worst-UK-ISP-we-ve-come-across-Lumison
22:26:41 <shachaf> What's so great about Britain, anyway?
22:27:10 <monqy> great's just there to distinguish it from not so great britain
22:27:31 <ion> Little Britain
22:29:20 <shachaf> monqy: Which Britain does elliott live in?
22:30:48 <shachaf> monqy is the most fun person to say "hi" to.
22:37:11 <elliott> monqy: What's the best UK ISP?
22:37:25 <monqy> I have absolutely no clue
22:37:43 <monqy> @google best uk isp
22:37:46 <lambdabot> Title: ISPreview UK - Top ISP Internet Service Provider Information Site
22:38:16 <elliott> I'm already using that site. :'(
22:38:41 <elliott> I really want to go with AAISP, but that peak time unit allowance is just awful.
22:39:32 <lambdabot> http://www.bbc.co.uk/webwise/guides/choosing-an-isp
22:39:32 <lambdabot> Title: BBC - WebWise - What’s the best internet service provider (ISP) for me?
22:39:43 <shachaf> elliott: The BBC is good, right?
22:40:06 <shachaf> British Broadcasting Corporation.
22:40:59 <elliott> fizzie: You didn't answer me :'(
22:55:30 <elliott> monqy: Can you buy me some units?
22:57:35 <elliott> Anonymous plans to shut down The Internet on Saturday to protest SOPA (pastebin.com)
22:57:50 <elliott> anonymous plans to DESTROY ENTIRE PLANET to protest sopa
22:58:08 <elliott> anonymous plans to DECONSTRUCT ALL MATTER IN THE UNIVERSE to protest sopa
22:59:25 <elliott> they plan to shut the internet down by ddosing the root servers
23:00:36 <zzo38> Do you like my Chinese New Year chart? You can make up a chart like this for other years too.
23:04:22 <olsner> damnit, why is it trying to use 't as a function?
23:04:31 <elliott> olsner: WHAT IS THE BEST UK ISP
23:04:39 <oerjan> the root servers need a stress test anyway, for when someone _really_ malicious shows up.
23:06:17 <elliott> oerjan: ok i know you're a bit slow being norwegian and all but the joke is that the root servers are literally being constantly ddosed forever hth please let me know if there is any further misunderstanding
23:07:23 <elliott> so i heard Mathnerd314 uses windows
23:07:58 <Mathnerd314> elliott: yes, I'm too lazy to install something else
23:08:19 <elliott> oerjan: your edit to [[Deadfish]] made the instructions *harder* to read...
23:09:57 <oerjan> elliott: hey if anonymous manages to ddos them noticeably more, more power to them!
23:10:59 <olsner> nice, the average function name length in this stack trace is 41k
23:17:20 <olsner> maybe I should try some more smaller things before expecting a metacircular lisp evaluator to work :)
23:17:38 <oerjan> elliott: conglomerated limited obfuscated great old transsubstantial communications unlimited
23:19:06 <elliott> well, if Murdoch's involved...
23:19:15 <olsner> running my existing test suite of lisp expressions through the (compiled) metacircular evaluator gave me 0 passed tests...
23:21:52 <oerjan> elliott: this deadfish table better?
23:22:04 <elliott> oerjan: XKCD is lowercase. also i saw it before you said that
23:22:22 <elliott> (but lwoerowercoiajsoerjiojoajiser is beter ? ) ( * ( )
23:23:21 <oerjan> elliott: i have not changed the case of that
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23:30:41 <zzo38> I like the XKCD variation of Deadfish because it allows to make it working in dc, which is probably not what the person who invented the XKCD variation was thinking of anyways.
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