00:00:44 <elliott> NSQX: do you at least understand that you must not make edits with a bot unless you have admin permission to, or you will get blocked again?
00:00:48 <elliott> and this applies to *everybody*, not just you
00:03:08 <kmc> i hate it when people make a big herping point about phrases like "ATM machine" being 'redundant'
00:03:28 <kmc> like how many of us actually think "automated teller machine" when we see ATM?
00:04:10 <ais523> kmc: "ATM machine" is really annoying, though
00:04:24 <kmc> ATM is just a word and sometimes the phrase "ATM machine" sounds more natural in context
00:04:25 <ais523> in fact, I get annoyed by following an acronym with a word that starts with the same letter as the last letter of the acronym
00:04:28 <ais523> even if it's a different word
00:04:41 <kmc> if you purge english of all redundancies everywhere, you'll end up with horrible stilted prose that pleases grammarians only
00:05:16 <ais523> it's not a redundancy, though, it's an inaccuracy
00:05:20 <kmc> (i am writing an article and want to say "PNG graphics" but can't because mouthbreathing dorks will whine about it)
00:05:22 <ais523> an ATM machine would be a machine that made or serviced ATMs
00:05:29 <kmc> an ATM is a type of machine
00:05:34 <ais523> kmc: "PNG-format graphics"
00:05:46 <elliott> ais523: that only applies if ATM = automated teller machine
00:05:51 <kmc> ais523, so i have to add an extra word to a sentence that was already perfectly good
00:06:09 <elliott> since it's not in common usage to treat it as its expanded form, it's not
00:09:56 <ais523> "PNG-format graphics" would be correct, I think
00:09:59 -!- NSQX has quit (Quit: leaving).
00:10:46 <kmc> where do people get this idea of "correct" which is divorced from the very purpose of language
00:11:22 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:11:50 <ais523> kmc: "correct" as in its meaning is clear to other people
00:11:52 <kmc> anyway if someone complains i will tell them PNG really stands for "PNG's Not GIF"
00:12:03 <kmc> ais523, you think the phrase "PNG graphics" is less clear than "PNG-format graphics"?
00:12:07 <elliott> anyone who doesn't know what "PNG graphics" means is being disingenuous
00:12:21 <ais523> "ATM machine" actually has a different meaning from "ATM", as I explained earlier
00:12:23 <elliott> but i don't know why kmc would listen to ais523 about this :)
00:12:30 <kmc> no it doesn't
00:12:42 <kmc> that's a common sort of construction
00:12:58 <kmc> a lamprey eel is a type of eel
00:13:02 <kmc> it's not like an eel made out of tiny eels
00:13:16 <kmc> an atm machine is a type of machine
00:13:35 <ais523> kmc: a red eel is also a type of eel
00:13:39 <ais523> a red eel eel isn't, it's just meaningless
00:13:42 <elliott> I don't know what kind of lamprey eels you've seen.
00:13:50 <oerjan> AutomatedTellerMachineMachineFactoryFactoryServer
00:13:54 <elliott> But the ones I have were definitely made out of tiny eels.
00:15:03 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:15:28 <kmc> let's make up arbitrary rules about language so we can smugly "correct" other people and feel smart
00:15:55 <kmc> thou shalt not split infinitives
00:16:10 <kmc> splitting an infinitive indicates that you weren't beaten enough in school
00:16:22 <kmc> and therefore that your parents were too poor to afford a school with high quality beatings
00:16:31 <kmc> and therefore that you are of Low Class
00:17:11 <oerjan> hah! i shall endeavor to boldly and rebelliously split my infinites whenever ponder what preposition to end my sentences with
00:18:14 <oerjan> that wasn't meant to have that many _accidental_ misspellings.
00:18:32 * oerjan kicks poor muphry across the room
00:18:33 <elliott> ais523: which of these is more helpful: "You've got RAS." "You've got RAS syndrome." -- the latter, because acronyms are inherently ambiguous, and nearby context works to clarify and make reading easier and smoother
00:18:50 <elliott> there is no more natural way to supply that context; it would be an arbitrary, ugly construction solely for avoiding a silly prescriptivist rule :)
00:18:51 <ais523> elliott: the latter, "RAS syndrome" is the correct name
00:19:02 <elliott> but it's Redundant Acronym Syndrome syndrome!
00:19:02 <kmc> C O R R E C T
00:19:03 <ais523> just like brainfuck starts with a lower case letter
00:19:06 <elliott> that would be a syndrome where you get a syndrome
00:19:28 <oerjan> the syndrome syndrome syndrome
00:19:29 <ais523> or Compiler Language With No Pronounceable Acronym abbreviates to INTERCAL
00:19:33 <kmc> actually B.R.A.I.N.F.U.C.K. is an acronym
00:19:40 <kmc> you are Incorrect™
00:20:02 <elliott> I wish I owned the trademark on "you are incorrect".
00:20:24 <elliott> ais523: anyway, what about PIN number?
00:20:34 <elliott> "PIN number" is also a helpful disambiguator
00:20:36 <ais523> I think PIN number is correct due to strength of usage
00:20:37 <elliott> for the exact same reasons
00:20:48 <elliott> ok, so your argument is just that "ATM machine" is uncommon?
00:20:50 <ais523> and ATM machine isn't because I've heard anyone seriously say ATM machine
00:21:01 <ais523> except as an example of RAS syndrome
00:21:18 <elliott> http://www.atmmachine.com/ http://atmequipment.com/ ("Leading ATM Machine Retailer")
00:21:30 <elliott> "An automatic teller machine or ATM allows a bank customer to conduct their banking transactions from almost every other ATM machine in the world." http://inventors.about.com/od/astartinventions/a/atm.htm
00:21:47 <elliott> http://www.atmtellermachine.com/ "ATM Machine [...]"
00:22:00 <elliott> here it is in a news headline:
00:22:04 <elliott> http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2012-04-03/vadodara/31280444_1_sbi-atm-bharuch-india-s-atm "SBI ATM machine stolen from Bharuch"
00:22:10 <ais523> elliott: the two *machine.com links don't count because they're blatant SEO attempts
00:22:19 <elliott> (from "The Times of India (TOI) is an Indian English-language daily newspaper. According to Audit Bureau of Circulations, it has the largest circulation among all English-language newspapers in the world, across all formats (broadsheet, tabloid, compact, Berliner and online).")
00:22:29 <oerjan> elliott: india doesn't count. they have the issac newton college, q.e.d.
00:22:32 <ais523> I'll accept the others
00:22:50 <ais523> elliott: would you say "SEO optimization" is a correct synonym of SEO, btw? if not, why not?
00:23:05 <monqy> what's "correct" and why should anyone care
00:23:15 <elliott> it's perfectly understandable
00:23:34 <elliott> and I almost certainly wouldn't notice it if reading an article containing it
00:23:45 <Sgeo> Calling "ATM machine" a machine that makes ATMs seems perfectly acceptable to me in jest
00:23:50 <Sgeo> But not in seriousness
00:23:57 <elliott> ais523: http://boingboing.net/2011/11/02/snake-in-atm-machine.html (yeah, boing boing is scraping the barrel, but still, it's evidence of colloquial usage)
00:24:00 <ais523> elliott: I'd interpret it as definitely different from SEO, it just makes no sense
00:24:10 <ais523> or, well, optimizing your SEO
00:24:21 <ais523> what about using single words rather than acronyms?
00:24:25 <shachaf> Are you people still talking about automatics ATM teller machines?
00:24:33 <ais523> can I say "single word word" rather than "single word"?
00:24:35 <elliott> it only works with acronyms, because they "hide" the word inside
00:24:44 <elliott> "word word" is redundant because word = word
00:24:50 <elliott> "ATM machine" is not because ATM =/= * machine
00:24:54 <Sgeo> How relevant is Stephen Fry's Language thing?
00:24:54 <ais523> elliott: "don't do not"?
00:25:12 <elliott> "Gold ATM machine at Westfield: meet the first customer" http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newsvideo/8610819/Gold-ATM-machine-at-Westfield-meet-the-first-customer.html
00:25:21 <elliott> "Mad Snake Inside ATM Machine" http://www.buzzfeed.com/mikep13/mad-snake-in-atm-machine-3t1w
00:25:32 <elliott> "Lego NXT ATM Machine with Change Maker" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0Z-ym0k89Q
00:25:36 <kmc> shachaf, i seem to have trolled ais523 by accident
00:25:41 <kmc> to boldly troll
00:25:48 <elliott> ais523: if PIN number is OK because of usage, then ATM machine is unquestionably too
00:26:12 <shachaf> kmc: You should title your autobiography "The Accidental Troll"
00:26:13 <kmc> nonsense, a tab is an unspecified amount of horizontal space indicating a logical nesting level
00:26:49 <elliott> /part the channel immediately
00:26:52 -!- augur has joined.
00:26:55 <ais523> elliott: it's OK, I was self-parodying
00:27:01 <elliott> ais523: you can't be trusted to self-parody!
00:27:24 <ais523> oh, someone in another channel brought up "KFC chicken"
00:27:25 <shachaf> When I press the Tab key on my keyboard, my editor inserts U+00038
00:27:35 <ais523> which I think is definitely correct for referring to the chicken they sell
00:27:37 <elliott> ais523: that's fine even if you're stupid and anal
00:27:39 <kmc> KFC serves things that aren't chicken too!
00:27:39 <ais523> and cannot refer to the company
00:27:47 <ais523> whereas KFC always refers to the company, not to their products
00:27:49 <elliott> since Kentucky Fried Chicken is a company, and they sell chicken, which is Kentucky Fried Chicken chicken
00:27:51 <kmc> well company names are proper nouns
00:28:04 <kmc> if someone called me "Keegan person" i would probably be... confused
00:28:05 <elliott> that means "I went to get some unspecified products from KFC"
00:28:05 <ais523> people actually say that? ouch
00:28:26 <elliott> but that's not because it ends with chicken, that's just colloquial usage
00:28:40 <ais523> "a McDonalds"? "a Burger King"?
00:28:52 <elliott> ais523: "some" works better than "a", I think
00:28:55 <ais523> kmc: is your name actually Keegan? if not, I see why you'd be confused
00:28:58 <elliott> and it might work better for KFC in general because it's a short acronym
00:29:44 <kmc> protip: if you go to KFC, do not order then Unspecified Product
00:30:27 <elliott> Finally, shachaf discovers the optimally condescending statement.
00:30:41 <ais523> strangely, neither have I, which is surprising given that it's the physically nearest major fast food chain to my house
00:30:47 <ais523> perhaps I should some day, probably Friday
00:30:54 <oerjan> kmc: hey that's just fud, the unspecified product is guaranteed to be from genuine vertebrates
00:30:57 <elliott> OK, "some day, probably Friday" is hilarious
00:31:10 <elliott> "Perhaps I'll see her again some day ... Sunday, perhaps"
00:31:20 <ais523> elliott: oh, I didn't mean this Friday, I meant an unspecified Friday
00:31:35 <shachaf> elliott: That sentence doesn't even contain a mention of how I"m morally superior to you because I don't eat the flesh of previous-conscious entities!
00:31:46 <elliott> shachaf: But that one does!
00:31:50 * oerjan thinks he ate at a KFC once
00:32:04 <elliott> shachaf: Did you know KFC sell products that aren't made from dead animal?
00:32:17 <ais523> oerjan: the fact that you're not sure probably means that it wasn't a particularly memorable experience
00:32:19 <oerjan> or bought something, or something like that
00:32:46 <oerjan> ais523: _or_ that it's 16 years ago, if so
00:33:02 <elliott> oerjan: maybe you ate at KFC the day I was born.
00:33:10 <elliott> Can I get a "synchronicity"???
00:33:21 <oerjan> elliott: sadly it would have been in the spring.
00:33:32 <elliott> Well, summer is basically spring.
00:34:18 <shachaf> oerjan: elliott is suggesting that you are a relative of his.
00:34:30 <elliott> Heyyy, I was tryin'a be subtle.
00:35:52 <shachaf> monqy: Are you a relative of elliott's?
00:35:59 <shachaf> According to Darwin, monqy is my ancestor.
00:36:11 <elliott> monqy is everybody's cousin.
00:36:59 <oerjan> 134605th cousin, 40902 times removed
00:38:18 <RocketJSquirrel> I don't think humans get more than about 4000th, and probably much less.
00:38:21 <oerjan> RocketJSquirrel: for a human and a monkey?
00:38:25 <shachaf> oerjan: RocketJSquirrel is calling you unlikely.
00:38:45 <RocketJSquirrel> For I am a flying squirrel, and hence an even more distant cousin.
00:39:07 <kmc> if evolution is true then why does monqy still exist HMMMMMM???
00:39:14 <kmc> checkmate, atheists
00:39:32 <shachaf> I always wanted to prove a point using a type-checker.
00:39:37 <shachaf> And then say "type-checkmate"
00:39:38 <RocketJSquirrel> If evolution is real, then how are there people stupid enough to believe in Intelligent Design?
00:40:00 <elliott> kmc: monqy is actually a squirrel.
00:40:05 * oerjan hits kmc with the holy saucepan of smyrna ===\__/
00:40:34 <kmc> because historically, assigning agency to natural processes is more adaptive than the alternative of running around screaming in ignorant terror of the world
00:40:35 <oerjan> RocketJSquirrel: darn good argument
00:40:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Apparently the alcohol laws in Pennsylvania are such that beer cannot be sold in quantities of less than 24 cans.
00:41:10 <kmc> in PA all booze is sold by the state
00:41:19 <elliott> oerjan: Can you kick Phantom_Hoover for being away for the entire duration of that tense situation?
00:41:31 <kmc> oh but maybe not for beer
00:42:20 <shachaf> If I spam this channel you'd kick me, right?
00:42:34 <shachaf> Can we just say I spammed this channel?
00:42:41 <oerjan> i recall memories of using my op powers for jokes. ...bad memories.
00:42:54 <elliott> No, it's okay. I told you to do it, so you can trust me.
00:43:11 <ais523> oerjan: you can remember /that/ but not KFC?
00:43:30 <elliott> `addquote <oerjan> i recall memories of using my op powers for jokes. ...bad memories. <ais523> oerjan: you can remember /that/ but not KFC?
00:43:33 <HackEgo> 838) <oerjan> i recall memories of using my op powers for jokes. ...bad memories. <ais523> oerjan: you can remember /that/ but not KFC?
00:43:34 <elliott> KFC: the most memorable thing.
00:43:47 <oerjan> ais523: yes, surprisingly my memory for a week ago is better than 16 years ago
00:44:08 <Phantom_Hoover> I love how NSQX doesn't seem to realise that if you need to autogenerate the spec of a language you can just put the generating script up and call it the spec.
00:44:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: He was trying to generate a stub table so he could fill it in.
00:44:25 <elliott> oerjan: Also, can you kick shachaf so he shuts up about getting kicked?
00:45:18 <elliott> Can you stop taking questions beginning with "can you" literally?
00:45:53 <ais523> elliott: if you put a "please" on there, he could no longer misinterpret you like that
00:46:12 <elliott> oerjan: Also, can you kick shachaf so he shuts up about getting kicked, please?
00:46:19 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> "Perhaps I'll see her again some day ... Sunday, perhaps"
00:46:21 <elliott> ais523: I think he might kick you now though.
00:46:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, I can.
00:46:40 <ais523> elliott: people stopped kicking me after a while, my reaction to being kicked is scary
00:46:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: OK you're right, I accidentally came up with a spectacular entry.
00:47:02 <elliott> ais523: Oh man. Tell us or we'll organise a demonstration.
00:47:04 -!- MDude has joined.
00:47:15 <ais523> elliott: just disappear for a while and make them think that they've mortally offended me
00:47:23 <oerjan> ais523: hey now you're making me _curious_
00:47:25 <ais523> it doesn't work if you tell people what it is, though
00:47:30 <elliott> ais523: wow, peace for that long?
00:47:37 <elliott> we won't hear a peep about ATM machines or tab widths
00:47:40 <ais523> elliott: isn't that what /ignore is for?
00:48:01 <elliott> ais523: /ignore is useless for people who don't monologue because you see people's reactions
00:48:18 <elliott> (which means it is excellently effective against certain monologuers.)
00:48:22 <monqy> solution ignore the whole channel
00:48:33 <ais523> monqy: there's even a command for that, /part
00:48:39 -!- elliott has left ("really? awesome").
00:48:40 <ais523> although it causes the channel to ignore you too
00:49:03 -!- elliott has joined.
00:49:14 <elliott> oerjan: actually if you just do /msg chanserv clear, that'll preemptively answer all possible requests for kicking
00:49:25 <elliott> and also punish the terminal idlers.
00:49:52 <ais523> elliott: it requires a couple more params than that
00:50:22 <monqy> the channel, at least
00:50:29 <ais523> /cs clear #esoteric users
00:50:35 <ais523> phew, I remembered to escape the / correctly
00:50:41 <elliott> ais523: you accidentally added an extra /
00:51:04 <elliott> 00:48:40: <ais523> although it causes the channel to ignore you too
00:51:12 <elliott> ais523: not in channels without the fascist +n mode
00:51:22 * ais523 wonders how many channels don't have +n
00:51:53 <elliott> we got -c, surely we can get -n here too? then the channel would have *no modes*
00:52:32 <ais523> elliott: doesn't it have +b? or does it have an empty banlist?
00:52:49 <ais523> wow, the banlist's actually longer than I rememeber
00:52:50 <elliott> well, an empty /mode output
00:53:04 <elliott> you can probably wipe that bot list
00:53:24 <elliott> oh wait, alvur was in herej ust days ago
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00:53:33 <elliott> * #esoteric Banlist: Sun Apr 1 11:21:38 *!*alvur@95.57.97.* oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no
00:53:34 <elliott> * #esoteric Banlist: Fri Mar 30 21:17:26 *!*alvur@178.89.139.* oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no
00:53:50 <ais523> and what were they doing?
00:54:00 <elliott> they came in here pretending to be christian, calling us magicians and heretics
00:54:13 <ais523> do you think they were aware that the channel wasn't about that?
00:54:17 <elliott> then they used a certain racial slur beginning with the letter "n" and it took like half an hour before anyone bothered to kick him
00:54:18 <ais523> (they could be and still do it, if they were a troll)
00:54:41 <elliott> ais523: well, they later revealed they're actually an atheist in /msg to nortti, who copied that here.
00:54:51 <elliott> but I don't know, it could go either way.
00:54:57 <ais523> that doesn't actually answer the question, but it's still interesting
00:55:04 <ais523> and why would they PM nortti about that?
00:55:13 <ais523> or were they trolling #christian too or something?
00:55:16 <elliott> because norrti was attempting to engage them in debate in /msg
00:55:17 <kmc> atheist sex maniacs
00:55:27 <elliott> don't ask me why, I have no adequate answer
00:55:35 <monqy> is there a #christian in addition to #jesus
00:55:37 <ais523> counter-trolling is the most likely answer, I think
00:55:42 <ais523> monqy: I don't know, I just made it up
00:55:52 <elliott> ais523: no, he argued with him in #esoteric first and pasted the full /msg log afterwards
00:56:05 <elliott> it was fairly standard atheist argumentation, so it'd have to be a really subtle countertroll :P
00:56:06 <monqy> apparently there is a #christian
00:56:12 <elliott> monqy: are you in #christian now
00:56:37 <monqy> Sgeo: do you know anything about #christian
00:57:24 <elliott> the worst possible relpy you could give
00:57:34 <Sgeo> I joined it just now, luke-jr is there
00:57:45 <Sgeo> There's almost no one there for what it's wroth
00:58:07 <elliott> that luke-jr popped up indirectly in another place on the internet recently, now i'm devoting a small portion of my mind to disliking them
00:59:22 <Sgeo> elliott, a place bitcoin related, by any chance?
00:59:35 <Sgeo> ais523, extremist sedevacantist Catholic in #jesus
00:59:52 <elliott> Sgeo: no, though i've seen him pop up there too.
00:59:58 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure what sedevacantist means; and I'm not sure I want to find out either
01:00:03 <elliott> isn't luke-jr one of the "saner" ones in #jesus
01:00:21 <Sgeo> elliott, um, there are worse, but I don't tally him in the "sane" people
01:00:34 <elliott> "Sedevacantism (derived from the Latin words meaning "empty chair" [1]) is the position, held by a minority of Traditionalist Catholics,[2][3] that the present occupant of the papal see is not truly Pope and that, for lack of a valid Pope, the see has been vacant since the death of either Pope Pius XII in 1958 or Pope John XXIII in 1963. Some sedevacantists claim that the vacancy goes back further."
01:00:53 <Sgeo> brainproxy ^peter^ and ... one other, I think
01:01:03 <ais523> elliott: I'm trying to work out why that would matter atm
01:01:14 <ais523> which probably implies I don't know enough about Christianity
01:01:17 <elliott> ais523: does theology normally matter?
01:01:27 <elliott> popes can declare all sorts of stuff and you're meant to like them
01:01:29 <monqy> does it have something to do with the pope being infallible
01:01:33 <monqy> the pope's infallible right
01:01:37 <monqy> I don't know my stuff
01:01:45 <Sgeo> monqy, only on certain specific issues and when he says so, iirc
01:01:53 <Sgeo> (Erm, that's an intersection and)
01:02:02 <oerjan> the infallibility is older than that though?
01:02:10 <ais523> hmm, if the pope is infallible, does that mean you can determine whether someone's the pope by whether they make a mistake?
01:02:22 <monqy> new popes aren't infallible because they aren't popes
01:02:29 <elliott> ais523: no, they explicitly declare when they're being infallible
01:02:41 <elliott> "Papal infallibility is a dogma of the Catholic Church which states that, by action of the Holy Spirit, the Pope is preserved from even the possibility of error[1] when in his official capacity he solemnly declares or promulgates to the universal Church a dogmatic teaching on faith or morals. It is also taught that the Holy Spirit works in the body of the Church, as sensus fidelium, to ensure that dogmatic teachings proclaimed to be infallible wi
01:02:41 <elliott> ll be received by all Catholics. This dogma, however, does not state that the pope cannot sin in his own personal life nor that he is necessarily free of error, even when speaking in his official capacity, outside the specific contexts in which the dogma applies."
01:02:58 <ais523> hmm, does this mean I can prove I'm not the pope by declaring myself infallible and then lying?
01:03:27 * ais523 wonders why he would ever need to prove himself not the pope
01:03:42 <elliott> it has to be on a matter of dogma
01:03:45 <elliott> so "lying" is pretty hard to define
01:04:03 <ais523> I could contradict myself?
01:04:05 <monqy> try contradicting another infallible dogma
01:04:30 <elliott> ais523: have you even read the Bible?
01:04:47 <ais523> elliott: many parts of it, yes
01:04:53 <elliott> Sgeo: "This user favors absolute monarchy." "This user wants a philosopher king." "This user believes the separation of church and state is heresy."
01:04:56 <ais523> I don't think I've read every word in the whole thing, though
01:04:58 <elliott> Sgeo: agree w/ yr not tallying
01:05:58 <monqy> philosopher king? itidus21?
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02:30:18 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Thu Apr 5 03:30:12
02:30:19 <itidus21> oh luke-jr.. he ops in a channel i frequent
02:38:40 <itidus21> monqy: theres several meanings of philosopher.. i fall more into the eccentric bum sense of the word
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03:02:35 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Thu Apr 5 04:02:28
03:03:11 <shachaf> My IRC client is breaking my non-BMP Unicode.
03:04:16 <elliott> shachaf: Unicode has 65536 characters.
03:04:19 <kmc> you mean Unicode Big Endian?
03:04:21 <elliott> You're thinking of -- yes.
03:04:37 <elliott> Most operating systems don't support that.
03:05:13 <elliott> kmc: Did you know it's called Unicode Big Endian because it's bigger than standard Unicode?
03:05:22 <kmc> but which end is bigger?!?!?
03:05:40 <kmc> itidus21 are you like diogenes
03:05:50 <elliott> kmc: No, "endian" is the technical term for the space in which the characters are addressed.
03:05:57 <kmc> diogenes was an eccentric bum
03:06:01 <kmc> he was perhaps the original troll of all history
03:06:07 <itidus21> kmc: diogenes was somewhere in the intersection of the venn diagram
03:06:10 <elliott> There's also Unicode Little Endian, which is only 12 bits, for embedded devices.
03:06:31 <itidus21> i don't actually do the thinking and analyzing side of philosophy
03:06:36 <kmc> they don't need embedded devices in china right
03:06:48 <kmc> it's all egg rolls and conical paper hats
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03:07:36 <kmc> means ur stoned
03:08:07 <elliott> kmc: My understanding is that the Chinese just rip off people's esoteric RISC CPU designs all day.[1]
03:08:13 <elliott> 1. http://esolangs.org/wiki/User_talk:Oerjan#Who.27s_the_anal-retentive_one.3F
03:08:23 <elliott> From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
03:08:30 <elliott> Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License; additional terms may apply. See Terms of use for details.
03:08:34 <elliott> Wikipedia® is a registered trademark of the Wikimedia Foundation, Inc., a non-profit organization.
03:08:43 <kmc> i wish i could find that picture of a bunch of japanese businessmen on the subway and one sad lookin white dude in a conical hat
03:09:11 <kmc> i think it used to be at the top of ED's page for "Weeaboo"
03:10:15 <kmc> "It has been decided that the contents of this wiki should be public domain."
03:10:23 <kmc> too bad there's no such thing
03:10:49 <kmc> or rather, you can decide it *should* be public domain, but the only way to make it happen is to die and wait 100 years
03:11:38 <elliott> kmc: see http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Copyrights
03:11:47 <elliott> we use CC0 these days, previously Creative Commons' previous public domain dedication
03:11:59 <elliott> it has a rather comprehensive license to use for jurisdictions where you can't release works into the public domain
03:12:29 <shachaf> To quote elliott: "(BTW, I always wondered how the Asian and Chinese people do any work with computers, given that the ASCII character set doesn't even include any characters in their alphabet...)"
03:12:30 <itidus21> kmc: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_WPL5zaKzjqc/TU-E_8WY6hI/AAAAAAAAADw/lAmCit-uHEM/s1600/100.JPG
03:12:34 <kmc> i've been wondering if i should license my code as CC0, or some other very permissive license
03:12:40 <elliott> shachaf: You removed the quote marks!
03:12:48 <elliott> You just used a colon as your quote mark.
03:13:07 <elliott> (full disclosure, the license was less waterproof before i took over, technically... but it was still there)
03:13:10 <shachaf> My treachery knows no bounds.
03:13:18 <elliott> (since CC's old public domain thing didn't include a license, we had our own pretty lousy one)
03:13:33 <elliott> kmc: yeah i've been tempted to just license all my (hypothetical) code as CC0
03:13:35 <shachaf> To quote elliott: "Wait... I thought Unicode was still an experimental prototype? Since when does it work in the real world??"
03:13:50 <elliott> kmc: i tend to just go with BSD or MIT because of peer pressure :'(
03:13:52 <kmc> it doesn't actually work in the real world
03:13:55 <kmc> we all have ASCII privilege
03:14:58 <elliott> shachaf: What is that nonsense? Speak words!
03:16:02 <elliott> ללמוד אנגלית ו / או לחזור לארצך ו / או ללמד אותי איך הקלד את הסמלים האלה
03:17:03 <elliott> shachaf: What did I just say?
03:17:28 <shachaf> elliott: That last bit seems to say "soft the donkey gelatin"
03:17:47 <shachaf> Maybe it means "the softness of the donkey" or something?
03:18:01 <elliott> shachaf: No, I typed in "soft donkey gelatin".
03:18:05 <elliott> I'm glad it translated correctly.
03:18:23 <elliott> What was the line before that?
03:19:29 <shachaf> "to learn English and / or to return to your country and / or to teach me type these symbols"
03:19:41 <shachaf> "to learn English and / or to return to your country and / or to teach me how type these symbols"
03:19:52 <shachaf> Translating grammatical errors is hard. :-(
03:20:45 <elliott> shachaf: כיצד לפתור את הבעיה לפיה דייג לא יכול לגרש את אשתו עד המעטפה תכנות מפסיק לחשוב על בעיה עם הקודים, שבה ולכן סוג חדש של שכמיות עם כירופרקטור כנה?
03:22:37 <shachaf> elliott: I'm just going to paste that into Google Translate and give you the response.
03:22:42 <shachaf> "How to solve the problem that the fisherman can not divorce his wife to the programming envelope stops to think about a problem with the codes, so that a new type of ponchos with honest chiropractor?"
03:22:50 <elliott> shachaf: But I already did that!
03:22:53 <elliott> I want the authentic native translation.
03:24:19 <itidus21> kmc: oh yeah.. i didnt explain my link above.. i found the weeaboo pic http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_WPL5zaKzjqc/TU-E_8WY6hI/AAAAAAAAADw/lAmCit-uHEM/s1600/100.JPG
03:25:12 <shachaf> elliott: Hmm, it's an interesting task to come up with edge cases that when translated en->he->en naïvely yield a completely different output from the original input.
03:25:16 <shachaf> For example, "to a thing".
03:26:05 <elliott> shachaf: הנתיחה שלאחר המוות המצטיין המאיה אקסיומה אמידה מואצת שפך מסוגל אמפתי חול
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03:26:45 <elliott> kmc: הנתיחה שלאחר המוות המצטיין המאיה אקסיומה אמידה מואצת שפך מסוגל אמפתי חול
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03:27:34 <elliott> I get the feeling shachaf is ignoring me.
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03:28:25 <itidus21> The searches I used to find it were, webpage search: encyclopedia dramatica weeaboo, weeaboo.. then image searches: weeaboo, weeaboo subway ,weeaboo sitting ,weeaboo contrast, weeaboo seated
03:28:27 <elliott> kmc: Do you think shachef forgot that wonderful portrait already? :(
03:28:31 <monqy> יש לי הרגשה שחף מתעלם אליוט.
03:28:59 <elliott> monqy: the gull ignores me yes
03:29:05 <kmc> i don't know hebrew
03:29:10 <elliott> shachaf: How do you pronounce "shachaf"?
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03:29:21 <shachaf> elliott: I pronounce it שחף.
03:29:22 <elliott> That's how I pronounce it.
03:29:28 <elliott> That's not helpful. That's literally what you always say.
03:29:32 <kmc> itidus21, that is not the weeaboo picture
03:29:37 <shachaf> The "ch" isn't a "ch" as in "chair".
03:29:39 <kmc> it's rather a photo of an anime style robot
03:29:40 <elliott> kmc: How do you pronounce shachaf?
03:29:43 <shachaf> It's more like "ch" as in "Bach".
03:29:46 <kmc> elliott, incorrectly
03:29:49 <elliott> kmc: How don't you pronounce shachaf?
03:29:52 <elliott> shachaf: No! Fuck! I hate that ch.
03:30:01 <elliott> shachaf: The closest thing to my surname in Lojban has one of those in it.
03:30:05 <elliott> I can't fucking pronounce it. My own name!
03:30:17 <shachaf> elliott: No, the Lojban one is velar; mine is uvular.
03:30:22 <itidus21> kmc: its a guy with a raiden hat in a train sitting across from a businessman.. wires must have crossed somewhere
03:30:31 <elliott> That means nothing to me! Is it easier to pronounce?
03:30:44 <monqy> I tried translated "I have a feeling that Shachaf ignores Elliott." but I got "I have a feeling that Eliot ignores gull."
03:30:44 <kmc> yes that is the picture i would like to see
03:30:56 <monqy> eliot do not ignore gull
03:31:02 <shachaf> elliott: No, harder (for me).
03:31:08 <shachaf> elliott: Probably easier for a Russian speaker.
03:31:10 <kmc> maybe you can upload it to imgur?
03:31:12 <itidus21> sorry kmc http://chanarchive.org/content/67_cgl/1993599/1248574696623.jpg
03:31:23 <kmc> thank you itidus21
03:31:25 <itidus21> that other one was a cut and paste mistake
03:31:31 <elliott> kmc: Did you see my portrait of shachef? http://ompldr.org/vZDhvag
03:31:46 <monqy> that's a good portrait
03:31:59 <shachaf> monqy: It's hard to explain exactly how it got mistranslated.
03:32:03 <elliott> shachaf: But is the Shh-a part right?
03:32:22 <shachaf> monqy: The main part is that you're missing a couple of prepositions.
03:32:48 <shachaf> elliott: The "a" is a simple short sound, as in "cup" or something.
03:32:53 <shachaf> The emphasis is on the first syllable.
03:32:56 <kmc> i saw it elliott
03:32:58 <shachaf> The "sh" is a "sh", I think.
03:33:15 <shachaf> I'm not sure whether it's a ш or a щ.
03:33:29 <shachaf> Because that looks like ש.
03:33:49 <kmc> shachaf, where did your ancestors live?
03:34:24 <shachaf> kmc: Quite a lot of places!
03:34:33 <shachaf> Like Finland. A bunch of my ancestors lived in Finland.
03:35:38 <elliott> shachaf: Let's settle this once and for all:
03:35:58 <elliott> shachaf: http://ompldr.org/vZDlrdg/shachef.wav
03:36:24 <monqy> shachaf shachaf shachaf
03:37:24 <elliott> Oh, hey, I can fix that weird artifacting.
03:37:25 <kmc> woo-ooo woo-ooooo oo-wah-oooo oo-wah-oooo-oo
03:37:32 <kmc> woo-ooo woo-ooooo oo-wah-oooo oo-wah-oooo-oo
03:37:33 <kmc> woo-ooo woo-ooooo oo-wah-oooo oo-wah-oooo-oo
03:37:33 <kmc> shachaf shachaf
03:37:58 <itidus21> ponders whether the verb skinning on an application is a relic of quake-1 terminology
03:38:00 <shachaf> elliott: Is that audio file just silence?
03:38:33 <shachaf> Oh, no, my volume buttons are just broken.
03:39:11 <elliott> shachaf: Can you play ``FLAC files''?
03:39:22 <shachaf> elliott: You have a very mechanical-sounding voice.
03:39:34 <kmc> my name is linus torvalds and i pronounce linux as "linux"
03:39:46 <shachaf> I thought it said "hello, this is ..."
03:41:12 <elliott> shachaf: http://ompldr.org/vZDlreQ/shachef.flac Now with 100% less artifacts and 0% less mechanism
03:41:48 <shachaf> elliott: ...Is that the same file encoded as FLAC?
03:44:00 <elliott> shachaf: OK, I'm pulling your leg. Here's what my *real* voice sounds like: http://ompldr.org/vZDlreg/shachefraw.flac
03:45:24 <elliott> I think shachaf doesn't like my real voice.
03:46:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: monqy: You don't judge me, right?
03:48:42 <monqy> it now all makes sense
03:49:32 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Thu Apr 5 04:49:26
03:50:28 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, no, you just sound like a normal English pansy.
03:50:37 <elliott> http://ompldr.org/vZDlsMg bye reddit
03:50:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Is that about shachefraw.flac or shachef.flac?
03:51:24 <Phantom_Hoover> No, it's about all the other voice samples you've posted.
03:52:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Uh, there was one more!
03:52:05 <elliott> Also, I meant "which one".
03:52:12 <elliott> Oh, you weren't being sarcastic.
03:52:23 <elliott> shachef.flac is the sound of an English warrior, okay.
04:03:13 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Thu Apr 5 05:03:07
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05:24:36 <shachaf> elliott: Are you reading this?
05:25:04 <shachaf> elliott: Sometimes I get sick of the "teach by typing examples into lambdabot" method of #haskell pedagogy.
05:25:39 <shachaf> Especially in the cases when you could give one simple explanation but instead give a dozen lines of small lambdabot examples which explain less and which the asker couldn't have come up with anyway.
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05:30:59 <itidus21> thats the haskell culture. :-D
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05:32:23 <kmc> sometimes it's appropriate though
05:33:03 <itidus21> yeah it's not really a language one studies through the normal channels.. such as a teach yourself book
05:33:04 <shachaf> People go overboard, though.
05:33:23 <kmc> "teach yourself C in 20 minutes" books are total shit
05:33:35 <kmc> as for books in general, a fair number of people do start with LYAH or RWH
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05:33:47 <shachaf> kmc: I'm pretty sure that if I read one of those books right now, I would know C reasonably well by the time I was done.
05:33:55 <kmc> itidus21, do you know any haskell? have you tried learning it?
05:34:00 <kmc> istr that everything you say about haskell is wrong
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05:35:42 <itidus21> i need to be allowed some leeway to get my ignorant reflex comments out of my system
05:37:53 <itidus21> what this room has taught me is that i never learned about computation from anywhere
05:39:14 <itidus21> I was exposed to assembly, basic, pascal, c, c++, java, html, actionscript .. but still not really learn anything about computation
05:40:11 <itidus21> it's like theres this whole tier of books which teaches people how to use variables and arrange text printing statements in different languages
05:41:15 <itidus21> maybe i just wasn't very resourceful growing up
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05:42:25 <pikhq> Nah, almost all books on programming are just really pointlessly simple.
05:43:38 <itidus21> sadder is that computer science degrees at least here seem to only concern themselves with that basic level
05:43:41 <kmc> it's almost like programming isn't just a matter of knowing n languages!
05:44:44 <itidus21> i'm sure it helps that computers are faster
05:44:51 <itidus21> i'd like to see haskell running on an 8086
05:45:14 <shachaf> itidus21: The lambda calculus existed long before the 8086 did.
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05:48:15 <kmc> i don't think lisp performance on 60's mainframes was particularly good compared to the alternatives
05:49:16 <itidus21> I wonder if 8086 ever did anything important.
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05:51:10 <itidus21> my questions are mostly making sense of "why" i have seen so many languages (and btw im a horrible coder in all of them) and why i am clueless about computation
05:51:17 <kmc> it's almost like programming isn't just a matter of knowing n languages!
05:51:35 <kmc> have you considered following a reputable school's CS curriculum?
05:51:39 <kmc> MIT has a ton of materials online
05:51:58 <itidus21> well.. i am also examining it historically
05:52:04 <kmc> 6.004 is a lot of fun
05:52:17 <kmc> so is 6.828
05:52:18 <itidus21> why when growing up i learned this ridiculous style of programming
05:52:37 <itidus21> and never really quite questioned any of it -- that was 1 mistake
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05:52:56 <itidus21> it was that childhood naivety that these things were just magically packaged up and did cool stuff
05:53:26 <kmc> i mean depending on what you mean by "magically"
05:54:24 <itidus21> i mean, i didn't care who made them.. i revered the mysterious programming god as a kind of celebrity
05:55:03 <itidus21> like there was vortex out of which programming languages were emerging
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05:56:13 <itidus21> uh.. also.. i didn't think many programming languages existed..
05:56:29 <itidus21> i thought that it was such a monumental effort to make each one that only a handful were made
05:56:51 <itidus21> or that everyone all just used this handful of languages
05:57:14 <itidus21> im not sure if i actually thought that
05:59:23 <itidus21> something to take from this is that even if you feel dumb, compared to me you're really quite smart about this stuff
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06:01:23 <itidus21> nothing about qbasic 1.0 ever purported programming to be difficult. i didn't know what i was getting into. although it was obvious the apps i was using were not made with basic
06:03:14 <itidus21> in closing: one of my breakthroughs was.. after hardcoding a call to a function like circle(20,20),5,2 .. i realized i could substitute variables for the position and i was struck by the power of this subtlelty
06:06:15 <itidus21> i don't think i can really express succinctly the fact that i expected to find here people at the same intelligence as me about programming.. theres no other way to put it how much of a shock it is
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06:07:14 <itidus21> i expected to find guys like NSQX and languages like lolcode
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07:11:26 <Sgeo> "The spec stipulates that any letter not among these should be ignored.
07:11:34 <Sgeo> What about non-letters not specified there
07:12:37 <Sgeo> Well, the original announcement says the correct thing
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08:48:49 <oerjan> <shachaf> It's more like "ch" as in "Bach". <-- /me practices
08:49:07 <oerjan> that's pretty cool, actually
08:53:41 <oerjan> wait, uvular? the german is also velar :(
08:54:35 <oerjan> sadly, that doesn't make it even cooler
08:55:24 <shachaf> oerjan: I'm not sure about "back".
08:55:30 <shachaf> Uvular is done with the uvula.
08:55:38 <shachaf> I don't actually know how velar works.
08:56:02 <oerjan> well, i tried pronouncing it like a "h", but with more friction
08:57:29 <shachaf> Er... Where does the friction come from?
09:00:01 <oerjan> hm wait the german r is uvular, so just unvoice that
09:00:36 <shachaf> Right, an unvoiced uvular r would work, more or less.
09:01:13 <oerjan> oh, "According to Kohler,[7] the German ach-Laut is further differentiated into two allophones, [x] and [χ]:"
09:01:22 <oerjan> the latter being the uvular one
09:01:46 <oerjan> and Bach supposedly has that
09:02:17 <oerjan> i don't think my german pronunciation is that precise :)
09:03:54 <oerjan> some norwegian dialects have uvular r, but not mine
09:05:48 <oerjan> ok h is glottal, so that's too far back
09:06:06 <shachaf> What does it feel like having the WRONG NORWEGIAN DIALECT?
09:06:11 <shachaf> WRONG PERSON. Who is WRONG.
09:06:48 <shachaf> oerjan: Do you know what the uvular one sounds like?
09:07:38 <oerjan> although when i try to fake a bergen dialect, it really sounds fake
09:07:59 <oerjan> though possibly not because of the r
09:13:59 * oerjan realizes his german probably sounds just as fake, he just cannot hear it that well
09:42:59 <Jafet> It sounds like your Bach is worse than your byte.
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11:42:57 <Taneb> What do people think of this David Catt person?
11:45:04 <oerjan> he'll wear out eventually. even zzo38 did :P
11:45:47 <oerjan> well, i guess he's putting up things he's already made, anyway
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11:49:48 <oerjan> BUT ALL IN ALL HE'S A FINE AND UPSTANDING ESOLANGER
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11:51:38 <oerjan> <oerjan> BUT ALL IN ALL HE'S A FINE AND UPSTANDING ESOLANGER
11:52:06 <Ngevd> I really need to find somewhere with a better wifi connection
11:53:01 <Ngevd> Also, hello david_werecat, I like your VB.Net quine
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13:14:00 <david_werecat> Yes, although I perfer their first album to their new one.
13:14:50 <oklopol> i think both have their moments, but i suppose i listen to the first one more
13:15:32 <oklopol> what did you use for these?
13:17:15 <david_werecat> Sometime, I'm going to post some of my actual guitar work; although the drums will still be done in Finale.
13:17:44 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: The universe is just a big torture chamber.).
13:17:49 <oklopol> i seem to be too lazy to ever buy something i can actually record my guitar playing with
13:19:23 <oklopol> i have never ever heard of that
13:23:46 <david_werecat> You can find a lot of people posting demos on there.
13:25:17 <oklopol> oh the page with your music was indeed your soundcloud userpage.
13:26:24 <david_werecat> Sometime this summer, I'll probably have a full demo EP done to post there.
13:31:11 <oklopol> can you play the stuff on your page?
13:33:13 <david_werecat> Yes. Although, I wouldn't suggest playing "SuperEarRapePlus" for obvious reasons. Also, pause at the end of "Technical Fragment", otherwise the ear rape starts directly after.
13:33:42 <oklopol> did you understand that i meant whether you can play them on the guitar?
13:34:53 <david_werecat> I just can't do sweeps that well, but everything else is okay.
13:35:36 <oklopol> i can sweep just fine except for that fact that people usually define sweeping as being able to sweep at 20 notes per second.
13:36:40 <oklopol> i can do two octaves of the minor scale up and down in a bit over a second, so something like 10 notes per second
13:37:32 <david_werecat> Cool. I'm almost up to that speed, although I don't practice enough.
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13:38:22 <oklopol> i have a 7 string in GC#GC#GC#G, buying an 8 string, gonna use fourths between strings for that
13:38:35 <oklopol> well actually i have it already, but not at home yet
13:40:22 <david_werecat> Very nice. I don't have anything that fancy, just a normal 6 string in drop B. What type of guitar is it?
13:40:59 <oklopol> ibanez, but i don't know much more... :P
13:41:10 <oklopol> i mostly just care about the number of strings.
13:42:02 <ion> URL? “<oklopol> david_werecat: nice music”
13:46:33 <david_werecat> Almost ready to release my new language "PP_TIBSA"
13:51:32 <oklopol> so what's this tascam thing's exact name? i torrented something but it doesn't seem to be right. really it would be enough if i had a way to use my webcam's mic, windows sound recorder isn't that great.
13:53:15 <oklopol> the sound gets distorted after a second or so, some kind of autocorrection.
13:53:41 <david_werecat> Tascam is a device that allows you to plug an amp directly into the computer. I use Audacity for all my editing and recording.
13:54:10 <oklopol> makes more sense, but since there was a program called that, i figured you might mean that.
13:55:50 <david_werecat> It actually comes with a professional recording software included in the package. I can't remember the name of that software, though.
13:56:51 <oklopol> it's just that i know every mic can record decently enough for my purposes, since the first second or so sounds right, and then for some reason everything becomes filtered.
13:59:58 <david_werecat> Maybe try checking in the Windows audio mixer. The microphone probably has an option to turn that off.
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14:04:32 <oklopol> here's a sample http://www.vjn.fi/lul/wtf.wma the song is called bashing the guitar at random to get a sample
14:04:47 <oklopol> the first chord sounds like a guitar.
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14:05:52 <oklopol> and i can't find an option like that anywhere
14:06:37 <oklopol> at least under the name make an electric guitar sound like it's being played under water
14:08:36 <david_werecat> I think on my computer, I found it in the Realtek control panel.
14:09:10 <oklopol> i can't find anything of use there
14:12:52 <oklopol> that's really all i'd need, since i usually only record stuff so i can better hear my mistakes.
14:14:35 <david_werecat> I'm still looking, it seems that Realtek doesn't handle the webcam mic...
14:16:50 <oklopol> i checked, with the obvious results.
14:18:49 <david_werecat> I know it's somewhere, I just can't seem to find it right now...
14:21:11 <david_werecat> There is an option under the Realtek control panel -> Microphone that says "Noise Canelation", but it's grayed out on my computer
14:22:15 -!- MSleep has changed nick to MDude.
14:26:32 <david_werecat> The best advice that I have right now it to right click on the speaker icon, select input devices, double click on the mic, then go to enhancments and turn off any options like DC Offset Cancelation, Noise Cancelation and Acoustic Echo Supression. Also, try setting the mic level to 100% and the volume boost to +30db
14:28:12 <david_werecat> Also, try setting the quality to 2 channel, 16bit, 192000hz (studio quality)
14:39:07 <oerjan> people do such stuff on the phone these days?
14:52:42 <oklopol> i have something called Realtek HD audio manager
14:53:13 <oklopol> is that the right place, because i can't really find anything for input devices there :/
14:53:58 <ion> Tennis http://youtu.be/QBqBCMpn4ZE
14:54:07 <david_werecat> The speaker icon to right-click is the one for the Windows volume manager, not the Realtek one.
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14:58:16 <oklopol> sound -> recording -> mic -> advanced has something called default format, but i can only go up to dvd quality :/
15:00:22 <david_werecat> It doesn't make that much of a difference. DVD quality is still good quality, generally it takes an audiophile to tell if something was recorded at 48000hz or 192000hz.
15:00:43 <oklopol> yeah i just want it to sound roughly like a guitar
15:01:34 <david_werecat> Was there an option under the enhancments tab to turn effects on and off?
15:02:15 -!- elliott has joined.
15:04:03 <oklopol> i can't find one anywhere, at least
15:04:30 <oerjan> <david_werecat> [...] generally it takes an audiophile to tell if something was recorded at 48000hz or 192000hz. <-- dibs on the "did that pass a double blind test" comment
15:05:14 <oerjan> (i think that's sort of obligatory in this channel)
15:05:56 <elliott> audiophiles can't distinguish 48khz and 192khz, sorry.
15:06:23 <elliott> http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html if you don't believe me.
15:06:47 <elliott> oerjan: ("ABX test" is the appropriate lingo here)
15:08:05 <elliott> oerjan: (play A, play B, then play randomly from A and B several times, identifying which one it is each time) (obviously the picking is automated)
15:09:39 <david_werecat> True. I do agree that it's kind of pointless to have settings like that. Although, with 192khz I can make a dog whistle that's too "powerful" for any normal speaker to handle it
15:10:10 <oerjan> so basically it takes an audiophile dog. got it.
15:10:15 <elliott> more than pointless, 192khz is actually slightly worse as far as fidelity goes :)
15:12:23 <ion> Recording and processing at a higher spatial and bit resolution might give you more room for various kinds of processing even if you downsample it to something like CD quality in the end.
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15:14:08 <elliott> ion: Yes, the article covers that.
15:15:15 <david_werecat> Maybe, although most microphones don't handle that kind of resolution so often times it only makes sense to record at maximum what your input can handle.
15:23:22 <elliott> 14:53:58: <ion> Tennis http://youtu.be/QBqBCMpn4ZE
15:23:34 <elliott> ion: You have no idea how much it costs us to import dinosaurs each year for Wimbledown.
15:25:10 <ion> I can imagine.
15:25:38 <elliott> Wimbledown is the Australian spinoff.
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15:26:40 <elliott> Ah, the best part about that article I linked is seeing everyone's inane responses to it.
15:26:48 <oerjan> yeah you cannot import dinosaurs to australia
15:26:49 <elliott> "Going from 16 to 20 bit is like going from vinyl to CD. Remember that every bit more represents twice the information, so going from 16 to 18 you'll get 4 times more depth."
15:26:59 <ion> I thought it was the version for people suffering from Down syndrome.
15:27:16 <ion> elliott: haha
15:27:58 <elliott> "What I can tell you guys is that there is a huge difference between 16/44.1 and 24/192. 16/44.1 just doesn't sound right. When you mix a project (usually I work with 24/96 kHz) you have a sonic depth of the elements, let's say a voice vs. reverberation; finally you get a mix down which is your "Master" but as soon as you convert it to 16/44.1 your work goes to the trash, you lose much of the program you had. The voice will get 'into your face' a
15:27:58 <elliott> nd you will lose a lot of the reverb you had, you don't get things in the space they were. [...] On regards of the sampling frequency 192 kHz do sound softer, it's much more natural but unfortunately it does take more resources. 96kHz has a good trade off."
15:28:32 <elliott> Mostly it's just "<I don't understand the Nyquist theorem>" over and over again, though.
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15:29:23 <ion> It would be so easy to do double-blind tests of your own for stuff like that.
15:29:50 <ion> I suppose they don’t want to do a test that potentially invalidates such a strong belief.
15:29:55 <elliott> You can't *test* *feeling*.
15:30:29 <elliott> I think it's just arrogance.
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15:41:38 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: It's also "I like big numbers" over and over again.
15:42:25 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: I believe one of the "4G" services here is secretly WiMAX.
15:43:00 <oklopol> i hear it's very important that the cables of your speakers don't intersect themselves, because the inductive currents are clearly audible
15:43:39 <elliott> "Did you know... that carrying the body parts of your dismembered mother to a refrigerator is hardly Soft & Cuddly?" -- Wikipedia's main page as of some hours ago, displaying astounding editorial judgement
15:46:11 <itidus21> ok, someone tell me what i was trying to think of but hit a dead end.. if you have 2 points with n dimensions, but you represent those points by taking < n dimensions and draw a line between them
15:47:15 <itidus21> like if you had point 5,3,2 and point 8,1,4 .. and you instead interpreted them as point 5,3 and point 8,4
15:47:23 <itidus21> it's not very interesting is it...
15:48:16 <elliott> You have to wonder who wrote that thinking "yes, I want thousands of people to see this".
15:49:01 <itidus21> someone quite evil i would say
15:49:07 <RocketJSquirrel> The funny thing is that in the context of the link, it's not even really spam, it's just not phrased in a neutral fashion.
15:49:49 <mroman_> do you guys know a compiler from some intermediate language to lambda calculus?
15:49:54 <itidus21> someone who has been reading too much psychology texts and wanted to mess with as many heads as possible
15:49:57 <oklopol> itidus21: what about that?
15:50:03 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I wonder if it was originally scheduled for April 1st or something
15:50:03 <mroman_> some intermediate language with loops, ifs and basic arithmetic
15:50:23 <elliott> mroman_: You'll have a better time finding such a language if you don't require imperative features such as loops
15:50:23 <oklopol> that's called a linear projection, basically what linear algebra studies
15:50:31 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: The relevant entry and link is still there, I think somebody just decided they wanted to rephrase it in their own style *shrugs*
15:50:42 <itidus21> oklopol: well usually when i have a thought like that, i'm sniffing onto an actual theory which is very old and worn out
15:50:54 <oklopol> yeah it's called linear algebra
15:51:31 <oklopol> if you want to learn math, that's one of the first things you should study.
15:51:33 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Ohyeah, the article's obviously listed, since DYK lists pretty much anything that is (a) new and (b) not crap, I'm just talking about the blurb :P
15:51:56 <mroman_> elliott: I don't need loops actually
15:52:41 <elliott> mroman_: Well, there's Lazy K's Lazier language, which compiles down to SKI calculus... you just have to replace S, K and I with their definitions.
15:52:43 <mroman_> foo n := if (n > 5): foo (n-1) else: n
15:52:50 <elliott> Also see http://matt.might.net/articles/compiling-up-to-lambda-calculus/
15:52:53 <mroman_> ^- something like that would work to
15:53:08 <elliott> Which compiles a little s-expy lang to lc
15:53:45 <itidus21> oklopol: the first thought was.. in a grid each cell tends to have 4 or 8 neighbours.. and i was thinking.. what if it only had 3 neighbours.. would it represent 2.5 dimensions in a way
15:54:15 <oerjan> itidus21: hexagonal grids have that
15:54:25 <itidus21> and i thought, in a line, each cell tends to have 2 neighbours.. but if it had only 1 neighbour perhaps it is some kind of .5
15:54:45 <oerjan> 3 neighbors for each vertex
15:55:03 <oklopol> right, also the connected graph of 5 elements has that
15:55:05 <itidus21> the latter comment is like a singly linked list
15:55:38 <itidus21> but.. is there a correlation between the number of spatial dimensions and the number of neighbours of a cell
15:56:01 <oerjan> itidus21: there isn't, directly.
15:56:31 <oklopol> itidus21: see oerjan's example, arguably it's still 2d
15:56:38 <oerjan> you need at least to look at how it grows for iterated cases
15:57:11 <oerjan> and i'm not sure whether that works
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15:57:38 <oklopol> if you take a finite amount of generators for the group Z^2, probably you get 2 as dimension if you take a limit of sizes of balls, and adjust nicely.
15:58:43 <mroman_> The set of all typed terms (simple type theory) is not turing complete?
15:58:48 <oklopol> you can make them grow constant times faster by adding generators, but i suppose you get that the size is theta n^2.
15:58:50 <oerjan> well if you assume the distance is the same as shortest path between two points, then you can calculate a hausdorff-like dimension, perhaps
15:59:22 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1173214/how-to-stop-working what a programming question
15:59:23 <oklopol> if we're talking about the dimensions of a grid
15:59:24 <mroman_> As every typed term has a beta normal form
15:59:27 <oerjan> i'm not thinking of groups, i'm thinking of infinite graphs
15:59:41 <oerjan> just consider Z^n as the intuitive example
15:59:43 <ion> elliott: It was removed already. :-(
15:59:54 <itidus21> and streuth knows what i am thinking
15:59:54 <oklopol> well what i said might be a way to define dimension?
16:00:05 <mroman_> Which means, that every algorithm which can be represented in lambda calcalus and we can assign a type to that term terminates?
16:00:14 <oerjan> the number of points at distance <= k grows like Theta(k^n)
16:00:16 <oklopol> d such that for any set of generators, you have that balls are of size theta n^d
16:00:19 <ion> elliott: What was the question?
16:00:27 <ion> in addition to the title
16:00:36 <elliott> I didn't realise mine was the final vote.
16:00:41 <itidus21> im trying to thin about porn now.. to cool down from my mathy confusion
16:00:55 <oklopol> oerjan: well right, that's exactly what i'm saying
16:01:12 * elliott tries to upload it somewhere.
16:01:21 <oklopol> and i guess the question is what kinds of growth rates can appear for groups
16:03:05 <itidus21> as for me, i just had to unburden myself.. having a difficult night
16:03:16 <oklopol> well ejaculation is a good way to do that
16:03:36 <oklopol> but i wonder whether this graph thing has been thought about for hundreds of thousands of years
16:03:55 <oklopol> at least they talk about these groth rates a lot in the CA literature
16:04:11 <oerjan> oklopol: why groups? there is no requirement that the edges of a graph have any group action relating them.
16:04:17 <elliott> ion: wget http://sprunge.us/jSTO -O working.html && xdg-open working.html
16:04:26 <elliott> ion: It... may be a little anticlimatic after that effort.
16:04:28 <oklopol> oerjan: because the question is trivial for graphs?
16:04:32 <elliott> But I wanted to try out the script!
16:04:53 <oklopol> and CA are always run on a group, so when i hear grid, it's a particular group.
16:05:29 <oklopol> so countable finitely generated groups
16:05:34 <oklopol> well countable is implied ofc
16:05:35 <oerjan> um and grids are a subset of graphs, so if it's trivial for graphs...
16:05:54 <oklopol> it's trivial that you can construct any dimension for graphs
16:06:05 <oklopol> by using graphs that aren't f.g. groups.
16:06:27 <elliott> oerjan: More like grads are sabsats of graphs.
16:06:40 <ion> elliott: heh
16:06:56 <oerjan> the graph of the free non-abelian group on 2 generators is pretty clearly infinite dimensional
16:07:15 <oerjan> (it's an infinite branching binary tree, iirc)
16:07:34 <itidus21> i think by 3 neighbours what i had in mind was connect-4 rules
16:07:46 * elliott wonders what the most downvoted deleted question is.
16:08:15 <oklopol> but what i don't know is whether this is well-defined
16:08:32 <oerjan> and in the other direction, finitely generated abelian implies quotient of Z^n, and i suspect quotients cannot increase dimension
16:09:14 <oklopol> well i don't see the need for abelianity
16:09:31 <oerjan> you might look into amenability
16:09:32 <oklopol> at least for CA you usually assume it's either amenable or sometimes just sofic
16:10:25 <oklopol> (sofics contain abelians and residually finite ones)
16:10:36 <oklopol> (and there are no examples of nonsofic f.g. groups)
16:10:46 <oerjan> also, why do i always get caught up in discussions just as i'm becoming too hungry to think clearly -->
16:11:13 <oklopol> i like how we mentioned amenability one second apart
16:12:30 <oklopol> actually iirc there aren't really any examples of nonamenable groups either
16:12:58 <oerjan> erm, the free group on 2 generators...
16:13:24 <oklopol> well i don't even remember the definition of amenability, but i see
16:13:58 <oklopol> well i do seem to recall that the garden of eden theorem is true on amenable groups but not on the free group
16:14:10 <oerjan> i think it was a long-standing, eventually solved problem whether every non-amenable countable discrete group had to contain F_2, i don't quite remember which way the solution went
16:15:09 <oklopol> was it you who solved it though?
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16:29:02 <Taneb> What do people think of 0x10c?
16:33:27 <oerjan> in fact i'm not entirely sure it was solved. should look it up...
16:33:58 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan <-- I WAS HUNGRY I SAID
16:34:13 <oerjan> (technically still am)
16:34:29 <oklopol> i proved a lemma about a very specific class of topological groups today!
16:34:46 <Taneb> Hang on, has anyone asked david_werecat the MOST IMPORTANT QUESTIONS?
16:35:01 <oklopol> well it doesn't really require a proof but i stated it
16:35:20 * oerjan swats Taneb for never marking his move in the iwc h&h's -----###
16:35:44 <Taneb> david_werecat, do you live in Hexham?
16:35:57 <oerjan> you're not the only one, but you're the one within swatting distance
16:36:32 <Taneb> It's a town, famous for it's unusually high density of esoteric programmers
16:37:00 <oerjan> david_werecat: it has been established that approximately 91.3% of #esoteric regulars are from either hexham or helsinki.
16:37:41 <shachaf> oerjan: Is your swatula thing always 5'-'3'#'?
16:38:14 <shachaf> Do you type it in by hand each time or do you have some automation to do it?
16:38:23 <oerjan> david_werecat: the approximation may be a _teeny_ bit off
16:39:00 <oerjan> automation, what kind of insane magic is that
16:39:13 <david_werecat> My approximation that 100% of approximations are accurate is probably off too...
16:39:13 <Taneb> (there's 2 from Hexham and 5-ish from Helsinki)
16:39:31 * Taneb has been to Hexham!
16:39:40 <oklopol> Taneb: are you sure about the number for helsinki?
16:39:53 <Taneb> oklopol, no, I cannot
16:40:01 <oklopol> i thought it was two for helsinki
16:40:28 <elliott> fizzie Deewiant atehwa (I think)
16:41:06 <oerjan> those finns, confusing everyone by having more than one town
16:41:19 <HackEgo> Finland is a European country. There are two people in Finland, and at least five of them are in this channel. Corun drives the bus.
16:41:23 <oklopol> i also thought ineiros isn't from helsinki
16:42:00 <ineiros> I am now living in Helsinki. Two months ago I was living in Espoo.
16:42:00 <HackEgo> %Փ.ɢ1cs ͉[. .$}.fOgW-uuhݔ~}8pȘ3 $.K܈...P*F,i.a+^BT.1ڛ.%č>"Yۇ!....L3K̩cjr2)8+[#\.kq).;{`.T.wN.3A.95OE.3y'.Y..1PXϔ. q5?qia99.hDǥVKaԲT
16:42:31 <shachaf> I think that said "from Helsinki".
16:42:56 <oerjan> `learn Hexham is a European town. There are five people in Hexham, and at least two of them are in this channel. Ngevd runs the student board.
16:43:12 <elliott> ineiros: More like: EsPOO.
16:43:12 <oerjan> should be close enough.
16:43:47 <Taneb> Of course, for Helsinki to have the same esolanger density as hexham, it would need over 100 esolangers.
16:43:52 <Taneb> fizzie, try harder
16:44:07 <Taneb> Is ion helsinkian?
16:44:19 <oklopol> btw there's another esolanger at our uni, he just doesn't do irc
16:44:36 <oklopol> i just remembered it was someone who started with i
16:44:47 <oklopol> and both ilari and ineiros do, so i assumed he double lives there
16:44:47 <ineiros> (And technically fizzie is not living in Helsinki)
16:45:37 <ineiros> But I think we could count the whole Greater Helsinki.
16:46:32 <oerjan> shachaf: you haven't conquered us _yet_...
16:46:35 <Taneb> Are fizzie and fizziew the same person?
16:46:49 <oklopol> the other is fizzie's wife
16:47:04 <ineiros> Or actually the Helsinki Metropolitan Area. Greater Helsinki refers to an area that is too large.
16:47:05 <oerjan> oh right, fizzie is married (yes it was a shock to me too)
16:47:33 <oklopol> (disclaimer: fizziew may not be fizzie's wife)
16:47:52 <Taneb> It took me ages to figure out oklopol and oklofok are different people
16:48:23 <elliott> Taneb i hate to break it to you but
16:48:26 <ineiros> I believe fizziew is just fizzie's alter ego.
16:49:08 <shachaf> elliott: Are shachaf and shachef different people?
16:49:13 <oklopol> fizzie: btw me and my ex once talked about taking the bus to helsinki, and asking you to be a witness for our marriage and then getting married
16:49:52 <oerjan> elliott: wait, that means shachaf doesn't look like a monkey anyhow?
16:50:05 <oklopol> (the one that visited the channel once)
16:50:33 <shachaf> oerjan: Huh? I'm not the Bonzi BUDDY thing.
16:50:38 <shachaf> oerjan: That's just he background.
16:50:45 <shachaf> oerjan: I'm the multicolored thing in the foreground.
16:50:55 -!- shachef has joined.
16:50:57 <oerjan> shachaf: suuuuuure. hm what was the link again.
16:51:20 <elliott> oerjan: http://ompldr.org/vZDhvag/shachef.png
16:51:33 -!- shachef has quit (Client Quit).
16:51:49 <elliott> oerjan: Based on this photograph: http://slbkbs.org/sb/1.png
16:53:44 * oerjan wonders if _everyone_ gets ben-kiki as the second suggested google completion for shachaf
16:54:54 <shachaf> Nathan van Doorn (@Taneb) is now following you on Twitter!
16:54:56 <oerjan> elliott: um, duh, that's why i asked
16:55:03 <ineiros> Hmm. I think I'll go and watch some burlesque.
16:55:16 <Taneb> shachaf, that is my twitter account!
16:55:18 <shachaf> elliott: I think many other people have that: name.
16:55:36 <shachaf> Why do I even have a Twitter account?
16:55:42 <elliott> shachaf: I refuse to believe more than, like, three people could have a name as silly as "Ben-Kiki".
16:55:58 <shachaf> elliott: And they're all me. :-(
16:58:33 <oklopol> i'm now on page 3 in google, i should probably ask for a raise
16:59:56 <oerjan> oren, that's almost oerjan. maybe i am secretly his father.
17:00:52 <elliott> shachaf: Are you oerjan's son?
17:01:11 <shachaf> elliott: That depends. Does oerjan hate styrofoam?
17:02:16 <elliott> Don't say "styrofoam" I'll hear it aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargjiorjg
17:03:15 <shachaf> elliott: Little-known fact: Pronouncing my name correctly sounds like rubbing styrofoam against styrofoam.
17:03:49 <oklopol> http://www.retroprogramming.com/2009/07/perverse-code-deviant-forth.html is this me?
17:04:01 <oerjan> shachaf: your father gave you a name he hates?
17:04:16 <oklopol> i don't remember that at all :D
17:04:16 <shachaf> oerjan: Are you my father?
17:04:50 <oklopol> seriously i've been sleep proving or something
17:04:53 <oerjan> shachaf: it's _somewhat_ unlikely based only on name resemblance
17:05:18 <oerjan> but hey, transliterating to and from hebrew can do weird things
17:06:35 <shachaf> Did you know "John" is derived from a name that has the same letter as the "ch" in my name?
17:07:01 <oerjan> something like yochanan, yes
17:07:31 * oerjan remember that from our baby names book
17:07:32 <shachaf> What does "Ørjan" mean, anyway?
17:07:56 <oerjan> would you believe it's the same as "George"? :P
17:08:10 <oerjan> (thus meaning "farmer")
17:09:43 <Taneb> George is my middle name
17:09:45 <Taneb> After my great-grandfather, who's middle name was Elliott
17:09:53 <oklopol> sometimes i google "oklopol" and marvel at my genius for hours
17:10:43 <oerjan> oklopol: what happens if you google "oklofok" instead?
17:11:09 <shachaf> elliott: Does "(" have a value?
17:11:39 <shachaf> elliott: If not, why does "2+( 5*3)" have a value?
17:11:52 <oklopol> but at least that one isn't also used by a set of idiots
17:12:10 <oklopol> oklopol is used by a few others, based on google
17:12:22 <Taneb> Apparently there's a racehorse called "Lady Taneb"
17:13:23 <oklopol> oerjan: ooh, so you're yrj in finnish
17:13:47 <oklopol> i'm gonna start calling you that
17:14:32 <oklopol> so it's probably not as common nowadays
17:15:27 <oerjan> well it could have been worse, i could have been named Bent, Odd, Even, Odd-Even,
17:15:44 <oerjan> also i could have been able to not hit return accidentally
17:16:21 <oerjan> (Odd-Even is an _entirely_ plausible norwegian name.)
17:17:14 <oklopol> holy fuck that's be awesome
17:17:34 <shachaf> You can't make a combining character a different colour?
17:17:59 <oerjan> ("By the way, Odd Even is the name all computer nerds joke that they'll name their child.")
17:18:28 <shachaf> oerjan: Did you joke that you'll name your child that?
17:19:00 <oerjan> no. the quote may not be entirely true.
17:19:18 <Taneb> I, for one, have joked about calling my child Telemachus
17:19:32 <shachaf> I, for one, have jokes about calling my child elliott.
17:19:37 * shachaf is secretly elliott's father.
17:20:20 <shachaf> elliott: Make Knuth check his email faster. :-(
17:21:14 <Taneb> My plan to translate my name into Latin is failing...
17:21:55 <Taneb> Translating it via Hebrew gives "dedit"
17:22:08 <Taneb> However, that's a verb
17:22:40 <oerjan> nathanius georgius aculeanus
17:24:21 <elliott> shachaf: Do you want to see something awful?
17:24:26 <elliott> shachaf: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Monad
17:24:29 <oerjan> that's awkward with hebrew names, sometimes they're meanings are verb phrases
17:24:32 <elliott> This is the worst page on the HaskellWiki.
17:25:20 <shachaf> elliott: What's your problem with separating the composition timeline from the execution timeline?
17:25:29 <elliott> Oh, it used to be fine: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/index.php?title=Monad&oldid=33391
17:25:39 <elliott> Then a certain WillNess messed it up over the course of several years: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/index.php?title=Monad&action=history
17:26:12 <shachaf> Who *is* this WillNess person?
17:26:33 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
17:26:34 <oerjan> elliott: that's just the perfect opportunity to use the edit summary "cleaning up the wilderness"
17:27:58 <shachaf> elliott: Wow, that "composition timeline" thing came up right in their first edit.
17:28:03 <elliott> shachaf: Ohhh, now I remember who that is.
17:28:12 <shachaf> elliott: I hadn't heard "Monads as science-fiction plots" before.
17:28:14 <elliott> It's the guy who asked that really ridiculous Haskell question on SO.
17:28:15 <shachaf> But I guess it makes sense.
17:28:30 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9149183/tail-optimization-guarantee-loop-encoding-in-haskell
17:28:33 <elliott> The real fun is in the comments.
17:30:58 -!- Taneb has joined.
17:32:06 <oerjan> Taneb: hm maybe a better translation of van Doorn would be Jovianus
17:32:19 <oerjan> looking at the town etymology
17:35:11 <elliott> oerjan: Can you ruthlessly kill anyone who argues definitions with someone trying to teach them the definition they're arguing about?
17:35:12 -!- cheater_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
17:35:21 -!- cheater__ has joined.
17:35:29 <shachaf> elliott: "Then Monads serve to separate the pure from the pure in one big holiday celebration after another."
17:36:23 <oerjan> elliott: that may be difficult
17:37:05 <shachaf> elliott: What if YOU'RE MISLEADING?
17:37:32 <shachaf> elliott "Miss Leading" HIRD
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17:43:41 <oerjan> oklopol: finally got to looking it up, it's right here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amenable_group#Non-examples
17:45:18 -!- Taneb has joined.
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17:55:00 <fizzie> oerjan: What do you mean "shock"?
17:56:02 <oerjan> like, this, you know, this channel, people, you know, are sort of, you know
17:56:08 <oerjan> GEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEKS
17:57:32 <fizzie> Well, it's not really my fault, I was sort of not the person with the initiative.
17:57:36 <elliott> (diff | hist) . . N Dog Training: How it works; 16:53 . . (+1,151) . . Jacksmithan (Talk | contribs | block) (Created page with "[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_training Dog training] is the process of teaching a dog to perform behaviors in response to certain commands. The most common behaviors are "...")
17:57:41 <elliott> Finally! I can find out Dog Training: How it works.
17:58:08 <oerjan> elliott: you realize that's a _very_ plausible esolang name
17:59:10 <fizzie> Even the quoted snipped starts out like an esolang description. I mean, "behaviors in response to certain commands" and so on.
17:59:11 <oerjan> it will be a hybrid of Chef, Zombie, Hunter, Homespring and Snack.
17:59:54 <oerjan> i guess there's some redundancy there.
18:00:12 -!- david_werecat has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:00:31 <oerjan> fizzie: hm maybe we should use that as basis
18:00:59 <oerjan> ah yes. and Karel the Robot.
18:04:45 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: häivyn).
18:06:05 -!- augur has joined.
18:09:03 <elliott> http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/128320/problem-for-run-applet-using-html
18:12:24 -!- davidwerecat has joined.
18:12:48 <RocketJSquirrel> Looks basically just like a generic "I'm incompetent and secondarily too incompetent to know where to complain about being incompetent"
18:13:08 <elliott> Yes, but the formatting! The formatting!
18:13:54 -!- davidwerecat has quit (Client Quit).
18:14:00 -!- davidwerecat has joined.
18:15:22 -!- davidwerecat has changed nick to david_werecat.
18:15:46 <oerjan> does stackoverflow have preview, i forget
18:17:04 -!- monqy has joined.
18:17:19 <oerjan> ah, then i shall not put them on my list of sites to utterly destroy when become world dictator. well not for that reason, anyway.
18:19:12 <elliott> you're ok with destroying sites but not people?
18:21:17 <oerjan> well the owners of wordpress _might_ want to hide early.
18:24:27 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:29:09 <elliott> oerjan: why is 1.19 not out yet.
18:29:32 <oklopol> could one of you give me a couple of thousand euros
18:31:06 <oerjan> hm btw i just looked at the hello world list, in my browser those table of content links that are before stars in the 2L program are unclickable.
18:31:18 <oklopol> three different institutions have apparently decided that i don't need money to stay alive.
18:31:37 <elliott> oerjan: i have already spent one day this month working around bugs in your out-of-date browser.
18:31:48 <elliott> do you really want me to spend another?
18:32:11 <oerjan> elliott: well does it look ok in yours, at a window size too small to fit them side by side?
18:32:58 <elliott> wait you mean a window size so small that the stars overlap the TOC?
18:33:10 <oerjan> yes. my usual size btw.
18:34:01 <oerjan> it's just a little narrower than full screen anyway...
18:34:49 <elliott> fine, i will fix it. can i convince you to not complain if i put pre { overflow-y: scroll } in the site CSS in return? the page has sprouted a horizontal scrollbar again.
18:35:41 <elliott> that was a serious question
18:36:28 <oerjan> oh hm. there was one problem i saw with that the other day...
18:39:59 <oerjan> um, don't you mean overflow-x:scroll
18:40:37 -!- lambdabot has joined.
18:40:55 <elliott> * #haskell Banlist: Sat Jan 21 19:19:41 *!*Libster@*.bltmmd.east.verizon.net lindbohm.freenode.net
18:42:21 <oerjan> elliott: ouch, sorry that's horrible, it would put a scrollbar on _all_ pre's, regardless if needed.
18:42:41 <elliott> oerjan: ok i mean pre { overflow-y: auto }
18:43:05 -!- cheater__ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
18:43:49 -!- cheater__ has joined.
18:44:07 <oerjan> elliott: it's just that i saw the other day that http://esolangs.org/wiki/Nonsense_Query_List had useless scrollbars like that
18:45:04 <elliott> oerjan: i cannot be held responsible for other people's crimes against formatting :P
18:45:26 <elliott> _ideally_, I'd just have every line wrap, and have an indicator when lines wrap (like an indentation of the line and an arrow next to it)
18:45:30 <elliott> but that'd require a small mediawiki extension
18:45:41 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
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18:46:54 <oerjan> elliott: i think it's because he used _both_ word-wrap:break-word and overflow-x:scroll, i'll try removing the latter.
18:48:11 <elliott> oerjan: do you really think touching that page is wise
18:48:49 <elliott> * glguy removes ban on *!*Libster@*.bltmmd.east.verizon.net
18:48:59 <elliott> * #haskell Banlist: Sat Jan 21 19:19:41 *!*mathnerd3@*.6.28.53.206.cos.dyn.pcisys.net lindbohm.freenode.net
18:49:13 <oerjan> elliott: ok feel free to rollback if you want :P
19:01:14 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:09:29 -!- TodPunk has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
19:23:03 <elliott> <fmn> Absolutely newbie. I have the following list: pixels = [[255, 255, 255], [0, 0, 0]], but pixels !! 0 seems to return a double
19:23:03 <elliott> <fmn> (Actually a list of three Doubles)
19:24:57 -!- TodPunk has joined.
19:31:58 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10026205/to-sample-a-voice-from-many-voices-using-matlab
19:32:01 <elliott> I have a wave file of chicken voices. Among the voices there is a sound of chicken vomit.
19:32:02 <elliott> So I've already convert the audio to Matlab plot, but don't have the idea on how to differentiate between the surround chicken voices and the vomit chicken.
19:33:54 -!- nortti has joined.
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19:40:55 <nortti> SliTaz GNU/Linux runs great on Thinkpad T20 until it starts to swap to disk...
19:44:13 -!- itidus21 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
19:52:53 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
19:54:40 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
19:55:35 -!- ais523 has joined.
19:57:19 <oerjan> `run echo wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee >test
19:58:54 <HackEgo> Experience is what you get when you didn't get what you wanted.
19:59:12 <oerjan> RocketJSquirrel: that actually helped me...
20:02:37 -!- MoALTz has joined.
20:04:18 <oerjan> HackEgo: but i don't like that kind of experience :(
20:05:28 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: fortunr: not found
20:05:39 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ofortuna: not found
20:05:53 <HackEgo> Peak District <--> Is pickled tart \ -- anagrama
20:07:23 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
20:08:31 <nortti> `run echo 'fortune; echo hel' > lbl
20:09:17 <nortti> @where hel `run sh lbl
20:09:35 <elliott> don't start another identical botloop...
20:09:42 <oerjan> ais523: btw do rollbacks hide edits from (default) recent changes or not?
20:09:44 <nortti> @where+ hel `run sh lbl
20:09:55 <HackEgo> I lay my head on the railroad tracks, \ Waitin' for the double E. \ The railroad don't run no more. \ Poor poor pitiful me....[chorus] \.Poor poor pitiful me, poor poor pitiful me. \.These young girls won't let me be, \.Lord have mercy on me! \.Woe is me! \ \ Well, I met a girl, West Hollywood, \ Well, I ain't naming names. \ But she really worked me over good, \ She was just like
20:09:57 <elliott> you can see my rollback of NSQX's edit to [[User:elliott]] in recentchanges
20:09:59 <elliott> and the pervious edit before
20:10:13 <ais523> oerjan: they don't normally, there's a hidden URL param you can use to make them hide the edit, though
20:10:24 <ais523> ?bot=1 on a contributions page will change the rollback links on that page to hide the edit
20:10:50 <elliott> (diff | hist) . . m User:Elliott; 01:37 . . (+17) . . Ehird (Talk | contribs) (Reverted edits by 202.156.14.101 (talk) to last revision by Elliott)
20:10:50 <elliott> (Block log); 01:37 . . Ehird (Talk | contribs) changed block settings for NSQX (Talk | contribs) with an expiry time of 1 week (account creation disabled) (block evasion)
20:10:50 <elliott> (Block log); 01:36 . . Ehird (Talk | contribs) blocked 202.156.14.101 (Talk) with an expiry time of 1 week (anonymous users only, account creation disabled) (block evasion)
20:10:50 <elliott> (diff | hist) . . User:Elliott; 01:36 . . (-17) . . 202.156.14.101 (Talk) (ZNT ELLIOTT LIEK EHIRD?)
20:11:16 <ais523> elliott: I think bot rollback is accessible to anyone with rollback perms (which is not the same as undo perms, and which aren't given by default in the default config)
20:11:26 <ais523> but it's a hidden feature, it's not mentioned in the interface anywhere
20:11:39 <quintopia> why do people use the golden section search for steepest descent when (according to my calculation) randomized binary section search is about 1% faster and not significantly harder to implement?
20:12:00 <elliott> oh, they don't [hide] normally, OK
20:13:02 <elliott> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/rumlg/clearly_go_is_a_superior_weapon_if_the_goal_is_to/c48ttru
20:14:12 * Sgeo vaguely wonders if Conservapedia covers EPR stuff
20:16:33 <oerjan> conservapedia considers the european pressurized reactor a sure sign of the Beast.
20:17:14 <nortti> oh $DEITY no. We are going to get Fox tv here on Finland
20:17:28 <quintopia> the only mental link i get for EPR is einstein-podolsky-rosen
20:17:38 <oerjan> and the european platform for rehabilitation is even worse, being socialist healthcare.
20:17:38 <Sgeo> quintopia, that's what I meant, I think
20:18:02 <quintopia> elliott gets toilets and oerjan does google searches
20:18:05 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
20:18:12 <elliott> hi Phantom_Hoover hows america
20:18:22 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
20:18:44 <quintopia> say hi to doodle for me while you're there
20:19:11 <oerjan> they can't understand _anything_ of electron paramagnetic resonance, so that's obviously evil.
20:20:09 -!- boily has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7).
20:20:19 <oerjan> i'm sure you can guess what they think of ecological planning and research.
20:22:12 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it's obviously part of the global warming conspiracy
20:23:32 <atehwa> It's funny how I regularly get highlights from the channel because people ask about Finnish people here :)
20:23:58 <elliott> atehwa: It's your fault for being so Finnish!
20:24:03 <elliott> You're in Helsinki, right? We were doing statistics.
20:24:38 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: just a friend of mine in the annapolis area
20:25:20 <atehwa> elliott: quite so. Although it doesn't make much difference which municipality you're in if it's the capital area
20:25:41 <atehwa> So, it's basically same town, whether it's Helsinki, Espoo or Vantaa
20:26:02 <elliott> atehwa: Well, we're just picking the biggest Helsinki possible, because you need all the help you can get to surpass Hexham's esolang density.
20:26:48 <atehwa> (maybe i should just google
20:26:55 <quintopia> RocketJSquirrel: arent you at purdue?
20:27:07 <elliott> atehwa: It's a small-ish market town in the UK. There are two people in this channel from there.
20:27:12 <elliott> One of them is me; the other is Taneb/Ngevd.
20:27:20 <elliott> The probability of this is incomprehensibly small.
20:28:12 <atehwa> I'm quite sure the Finnish capital area will surpass you
20:28:22 <elliott> atehwa: You'd need over 100 esolangers.
20:28:39 <atehwa> ah, so we're talking about comparative density here?
20:28:50 <elliott> 0.02% of Hexhamers are esolangers (going by 2001 population data, so probably a bit less)
20:29:25 <elliott> So you need 104.18 esolangers in Helsinki-the-city to beat us.
20:29:30 <atehwa> Okay, I'll more to Inari with some other esolanger so we'll have better statistics there
20:29:47 <atehwa> we've got really low-population municipalities in Finland :)
20:30:01 <oerjan> elliott: i am not sure expanding helsinki beyond the university-dense area is likely to help
20:30:04 <elliott> Yeah, but if there's somewhere else in Finland with more esolangers, you don't even enter the competition ;)
20:30:27 <Phantom_Hoover> ALSO: I have just realised that American houses are like normal houses pushed down a floor.
20:31:01 <atehwa> oerjan: Helsinki University of Technology is actually in Espoo, and they have some esolangers there.
20:31:15 <elliott> atehwa: Is that the one that's not Wave?
20:31:44 <atehwa> elliott: um... what are you referring to?
20:32:00 <Phantom_Hoover> I can't fathom why, seeing as AFAICT they fulfil the same function as a second floor but with the added benefits of being dank, lightless and prone to flooding.
20:32:41 <elliott> atehwa: I call it Wave University since fizzie was all "oh, they're renaming our university to Wave" one day.
20:32:50 <elliott> And that's a marginally more ridiculous name than Aalto.
20:33:05 <atehwa> HUT was renamed to Aalto when they merged with some other higher education institutes
20:33:08 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: tornados maybe?
20:33:19 <atehwa> Aalto is because of Alvar Aalto
20:33:28 <elliott> atehwa: oh, so it's the one that _is_ aalto?
20:33:37 <atehwa> I wonder why he was the one to be named after...
20:33:39 <elliott> or does HUT not stand for Helsinki University of Technology...
20:33:49 <atehwa> elliott: yes, they're the same
20:33:51 <elliott> ... and where does that TKK thing come into this?! your universities are really confusing :)
20:34:01 <atehwa> HUT and TKK also mean the same
20:34:10 <elliott> one university, three names
20:34:15 <atehwa> TKK is Finnish acronym whereas HUT is the English one
20:35:11 <atehwa> similarly, the art school has two acronyms, UIAH and TAIK (but they got merged into Aalto)
20:35:55 <atehwa> sincerely, what I keep wondering about is why all Finnish universities want English acronyms in addition to having Finnish ones.
20:36:27 <elliott> to make people think they have twice as many universities
20:36:38 <elliott> possibly the most devious plot ever
20:37:23 <oklopol> we mostly just use the english one
20:38:55 <elliott> shachaf is going to turn off IRC to get something done.
20:42:35 <oklopol> i just found over 500 euros in a plastic bag
20:42:52 <atehwa> we have really many universities anyway, compared to the population, because at some point the state wanted to give support to rural areas by dispersing all kinds of institutions all around the country
20:42:52 <elliott> i just found a plastic bag in over 500 euros
20:42:56 <oklopol> i have been throwing money in there for some time, apparently quite a bit :D
20:43:12 <elliott> is this because you bought that computer
20:43:21 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: check out lemur okthxbye
20:43:47 <oklopol> i was supposed to get a 1200 grant, plus 300 extra, 1000 award money, and 3000 salary
20:44:16 <oklopol> perhaps the rest is coming this month
20:44:28 <oklopol> in any case, the 500 may help.
20:44:37 <oklopol> i didn't count all of it, probably there's at least 100 more
20:44:45 <oklopol> plus i do have more bags somewhere in there
20:44:59 <oklopol> and i can always rob my neighbors
20:45:41 <oklopol> elliott: the computer was before i started a savings account which i won't touch for 10 years and where i put all my moneys
20:45:50 <oklopol> i used to have moneys back then.
20:46:03 <elliott> are you sure you're feeling ok
20:46:24 <oklopol> well i also just spent 600 on train tickets i have no use for
20:46:50 <oklopol> also today i returned like 70 euros worth of bottles
20:47:08 <oklopol> i had lined our university office with them
20:47:14 <oerjan> atehwa: btw trondheim's university (NTNU)'s official name in english is norwegian university of science and technology. it is told that it originally was supposed to be "technology and science" until someone noticed a small detail...
20:47:35 <elliott> oerjan: they must have been nuts
20:47:50 -!- Taneb has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:48:00 -!- Taneb has joined.
20:48:11 <oklopol> (that's something like 150 liters or something)
20:48:22 <Taneb> Woah, I left this open
20:48:23 * oerjan puts elliott on the list of people who spoil jokes.
20:48:46 <ion> Fallout 1 for free. http://www.gog.com/en/gamecard/fallout
20:48:52 <oklopol> do you to take 6 trips between kuopio and turku
20:49:48 <Taneb> If by "kuopio" you mean "cairo" and by "turku" you mean "turkmenistan"
20:50:28 <oklopol> i should probably sell them on the internets or something
20:50:36 <oklopol> afaiu you can't return them
20:51:38 <oerjan> <oklopol> also you aren't finnish <-- he's just translating to equivalent british empire terms
20:53:55 <Taneb> oerjan, I promise I'll mark my hurts and my heals from now on!
20:58:26 <oklopol> why can't i be one of those people that win all the lotteries
20:58:30 * Sgeo accuses oerjan of being legal, winning, and not fun
20:58:44 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
20:59:09 <oerjan> Sgeo: but i'm not a player!
20:59:52 <Sgeo> GOPL should be an esolang
21:00:01 <Sgeo> Erm, described on the esolang wiki
21:00:19 * oerjan isn't sure he gets Sgeo's references here
21:00:27 <Sgeo> http://www.win.tue.nl/~engels/frc/index.html
21:00:59 <Sgeo> I was a fan of reading this stuff in 2003
21:05:38 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:07:53 <elliott> can two people upvote me plz thanks
21:07:55 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Thu Apr 5 22:07:48
21:08:06 <ais523> or is that not an upvote?
21:08:18 <elliott> ok so 3 hours to get two upvotes, easy
21:08:32 <oklopol> elliott: i can think positive thought about you if that helps?
21:08:34 <ais523> oh, you're trying to hit SO karma cap?
21:09:16 <ais523> hmm, statistic just in: Chrome has a higher market share than IE on Sundays
21:09:30 <elliott> ais523: not the cap, just 200
21:09:38 <elliott> 200 a day keeps the doctor away, they say
21:09:54 <elliott> though i only average 167 :'(
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21:18:42 <ais523> elliott: you've given up trying to cap it every day, then? good, I think
21:20:11 <elliott> ais523: no, 200 is the cap
21:20:20 <elliott> but you can reach 200 without reaching the cap
21:21:39 <elliott> I'm a little rusty on Haskell, but iirc, the ++ syntax is memory-expensive, where as the cons operator (:) is cheap. Is it possible to use something like (key, x) : parseToEntries xs? Again . . . my Haskell is very rusty, so this might be way off. – jpm 3 mins ago
21:24:48 <elliott> ais523: accepts don't count to cap
21:25:08 <ais523> that makes sense, actually
21:26:10 <elliott> There is no user by the name "Ehird". Usernames are case sensitive. Check your spelling, or create a new account.
21:26:27 <elliott> my test wiki user somehow got renamed to "ehird" when i tried to add the lowercase username thing
21:27:51 * elliott is hoping to get the Math extension working w/o texvc
21:30:38 <elliott> ais523: what's a WP article with lots of LaTeX?
21:30:55 <ais523> err, hmm, [[rotation matrix]]?
21:31:04 <ais523> just thinking of one I came across recently (pointing my students to it)
21:31:10 <elliott> thanks, that looks like a good test case
21:32:17 <elliott> MediaWiki escapes the & inside the math tag
21:32:26 <elliott> so all aligned stuff gets amp; after it with MathJax
21:33:49 <elliott> guess MediaWiki's MathJax support isn't ready for prime-time, then
21:41:45 <nortti> "polls show that over 20% of Americans say their main source of news is the Fox News Channel."
21:41:55 <elliott> but more importantly, "polls show that
21:44:08 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Thu Apr 5 22:44:01
21:48:22 <lambdabot> Local time for nortti is Fri Apr 06 00:50:02 UTC+3.00 2012
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21:49:50 <elliott> ais523: you wake up! it is very dark. you are a graue.
21:49:59 <elliott> you are likely to eat something.
21:50:09 <ais523> elliott: almost works, but not really
21:51:12 <elliott> EXCUSE ME you just RUINED my PERFECT ZORK FANFICTION
21:52:20 <elliott> * Look for 'orphan' revisions hooked to pages which don't exist
21:52:20 <elliott> * And 'childless' pages with no revisions.
21:52:20 <elliott> * Then, kill the poor widows and orphans.
21:52:20 <elliott> -- Mediawiki maintanence script orphans.php
21:52:53 <elliott> haha, you even get that if you pass it --help
21:55:20 <Sgeo> "Loophole Could Allow Private Land Claims on Other Worlds"
21:55:23 <Sgeo> Aerican Empire?
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21:56:03 <HackEgo> parkkk: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
21:56:36 <parkkk> Do you know of a humorous book or article which employs an esoteric language as a vehicle to introduce its readers to computer science?
21:56:59 <parkkk> a la "Introduction to Computer Science through Brainfuck"
21:57:18 <ais523> I don't think so, although it makes a lot of sense
21:57:26 <parkkk> I would love to read it!
21:57:37 <elliott> I think you're now legally obligated to write it.
21:57:38 <ais523> I've heard rumours of a course that started teaching people Ook! as a first language
21:58:07 <parkkk> I will, at some point, but presently I find myself unable to as I'm a beginning cs student
21:59:10 <parkkk> not entirely, at least
22:01:14 <parkkk> what topics would this book embrace? Help me list a few items so I can begin doing research
22:01:45 <elliott> No, I meant what I said to ais523 was a joke.
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22:10:21 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Thu Apr 5 23:10:14
22:10:44 <Sgeo> elliott, are you planning on sleeping at a normal time?
22:10:51 <Sgeo> </complete-hypocrite>
22:11:22 <Phantom_Hoover> For— WHY IS DWARF FORTRESS' RELEASE CYCLE MOVING SO QUICKLY
22:14:46 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night. As if.).
22:15:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Errythin' fast in 'Merica.
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22:15:48 <Phantom_Hoover> And those aren't bugfixes; he's overhauled animal training and clothing.
22:16:27 * Phantom_Hoover → trying to wrestle Henry into running Multiwinia the only way he knows: brute force and inadequate knowledge of X.
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22:17:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Bet you break it.
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22:25:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Excuse me, it's not my fault I somehow bought a laptop with a GPU that seems to be moving backwards in time.
22:26:30 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: the gpu is going forwards, it's you and the rest of the world that are going backwards
22:48:07 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Thu Apr 5 23:48:00
22:57:00 <elliott> http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/128340/visual-studio-zooming-and-help-with-web-browser
22:57:09 <elliott> Visual Studio: Zooming, and help with web browser?
22:57:10 <elliott> Okay, How do I do zoom!!???? I've been trying 2 figure this out.
22:57:12 <elliott> And how to make it so that when I go to another website, it shows the URL of every website I'm on, not just the URL I just typed in?????????????? For example, when I type "facebook.com", it leads me to Facebook. Then say I click on an ad. It goes to another website, but the URL textbox still says "facebook.com". I've been trying 2 figure this out help!!!!!!!!!!!!!
22:57:17 <elliott> By the way, I have 2010 Express.
22:57:57 * ais523 wonders if visual studio actually can act as a web browser
22:58:05 <ais523> it wouldn't surprise me, it's not an entirely useless feature for an IDE to have…
22:58:27 <Sgeo> At least at one point, Word had a web browser
22:59:05 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, it's MS, wouldn't it just use Trident?
22:59:42 <Sgeo> (IE's renderer)
22:59:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: How do you know that?
23:00:22 <Sgeo> http://www.sitepoint.com/microsoft-drop-trident-from-internet-explorer/
23:02:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Have I mentioned that I hold a grudge against chess players worldwide.
23:02:17 * Sgeo pretends that elliott was not being sarcastic
23:02:31 <Sgeo> elliott, I used to play a little chess on occasion
23:03:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Because they're dirty little sneaks.
23:03:32 <RocketJSquirrel> "It is open source and has been in development far longer than any other engine." I don't believe the latter part is true of Lynx.
23:03:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Dirty little sneaks who publish April Fools pranks on April 2nd.
23:03:54 <RocketJSquirrel> There are certainly older engines, although I'm not sure whether any of the current ones are older. Gecko might be.
23:04:04 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Uhhh... Gecko is not older than Lynx...
23:04:17 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Gecko is circa 1997.
23:04:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=8047, http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=8051
23:05:41 <RocketJSquirrel> Oh, hm, I was operating under the misconception that Gecko was actually derived from the original Netscape engine.
23:06:15 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: You think they could have developed something as good as Mozilla out of Netscape 4?
23:06:22 <elliott> Have you ever *used* Netscape 4?
23:06:40 <elliott> In fact, the whole reason Netscape went to hell and went open-source is because they fucked themselves over rewriting everything from scratch.
23:06:49 <RocketJSquirrel> Yes, but I don't doubt their ability to throw away vast chunks :)
23:06:52 <Sgeo> When was the rewrite that Joel Spolsky uses as an example of a bad idea
23:07:38 <Sgeo> But when, between what versions? 4 and 6?
23:07:58 <elliott> Then they used Mozilla to make 6.
23:08:41 <elliott> Oh: "At least one more major revision of Netscape was expected to be released with the old layout engine before the switch."
23:08:45 <RocketJSquirrel> Right, I wasn't aware that Mozilla was a rewrite per se, I thought it was just a very significant overhaul.
23:08:51 <Sgeo> "exhaustively analysed all lines that follow after 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 and came to some extraordinary conclusions."
23:08:54 <elliott> So they fucked themselves over WITHOUT the immediate benefit.
23:09:03 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Well, I don't think the surrounding chrome was rewritten?
23:09:03 <Sgeo> That in and of itself should be enough of a clue that it's a joke
23:09:16 <elliott> Sgeo: It goes on to "explain" how it was done without actually checking them all.
23:09:34 <elliott> It's fairly plausibly-written apart from (a) the orders of magnitude being way off and (b) the Turing machines bit.
23:09:42 <RocketJSquirrel> Still need to write that text backend for WebKit some time.
23:09:50 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Right: "In October 1998, Netscape announced that its next browser would use Gecko (which was still called NGLayout at the time) rather than the old layout engine, requiring large parts of the application to be rewritten. While this decision was popular with web standards advocates, it was largely unpopular with Netscape developers, who were unhappy with the six months given for the rewrite.[7] It also meant that most of the work
23:09:50 <elliott> done for Netscape Communicator 5.0 (including development on the Mariner improvements to the old layout engine) had to be abandoned. Netscape 6, the first Netscape release to incorporate Gecko, was released in November 2000 (the name Netscape 5 was never used)."
23:10:00 <elliott> So Mozilla probably wasn't a COMPLETE rewrite.
23:10:16 <elliott> "Gecko also has limited support for some non-standard Internet Explorer features, such as the marquee element"
23:10:24 <elliott> Can you imagine if it *didn't*?
23:10:40 <Sgeo> <blink> was created as a joke, right?
23:11:04 <elliott> Lou Montulli is credited as the inventor of the blink tag at Netscape, although he claims he only suggested the idea, without writing any actual code.[1]
23:11:04 <elliott> ... At some point in the evening I mentioned that it was sad that Lynx was not going to be able to display many of the HTML extensions that we were proposing, I also pointed out that the only text style that Lynx could exploit given its environment was blinking text. We had a pretty good laugh at the thought of blinking text, and talked about blinking this and that and how absurd the whole thing would be. [...] Saturday morning rolled around and
23:11:05 <elliott> I headed into the office only to find what else but, blinking text. It was on the screen blinking in all its glory, and in the browser. How could this be, you might ask? It turns out that one of the engineers liked my idea so much that he left the bar sometime past midnight, returned to the office and implemented the blink tag overnight. He was still there in the morning and quite proud of it.[1]
23:11:49 <elliott> I like how that means we can blame a non-standard, inaccessible, horrific HTML kludge on Lynx.
23:14:12 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Fri Apr 6 00:14:05
23:14:25 <ais523> was it standard at any point, and unstandardised due to being so unpopular? or not?
23:14:59 <elliott> <blink> doesn't even work nowadays.
23:15:03 <elliott> WebKit doesn't support it.
23:15:26 <elliott> <marquee>, however, still works.
23:15:54 <elliott> "As with the blink element, because the marquee tagged images or text are not always completely visible, it can make printing such webpages to a paper hard-copy an impossible and inefficient task where the specific printed pages where the messages on screen scroll or blink have to be printed multiple times to capture all the pieces of text that could be displayed at any one given moment in time."
23:16:03 <elliott> I wonder if anyone has ever printed a page multiple times to get all the marquee.
23:16:26 <elliott> "Unlike its blinking counterpart, the marquee element has several attributes that can be used to control and adjust the appearance of the marquee."
23:16:30 <elliott> Imagine <blink> with attributes.
23:16:37 <elliott> <blink speed="10000000000000">AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA</blink>
23:16:58 <elliott> "CSS properties are used to achieve the same effect as specified in the Marquee Module Level 3, which is in the call for implementations stage.[3]"
23:17:04 <elliott> http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-marquee/
23:17:29 <monqy> marquee is amazing
23:17:45 <monqy> why wouldn't it exist
23:18:00 <elliott> Yeah, but to sully it with CSS?
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23:49:23 <pikhq> I internetted in the 90s!
23:49:31 <pikhq> I know the horrors that can bring!
23:51:21 <olsner> http://olsner.se/marquee.php
23:51:27 <ion> Too bad IRC doesn’t have marquee. :-(
23:51:55 <olsner> ion: IRC is a marquee that scrolls upwards slowly
23:52:18 <ion> So is a scrollable webpage. :-P
23:53:04 <olsner> see, the marquee is the basis of everything good
23:55:54 <olsner> (for the morbidly curious, I also have marquee2, marquee3 and marquee4 that do slightly different things with marquees)
23:56:27 <elliott> ion: other people can't scroll your webpage
23:56:47 <elliott> olsner: holy shit, that's art
23:57:46 <elliott> marquee2 would be more fun if they alternated directions :)
23:58:51 <elliott> olsner: http://olsner.se/marquee2.php?s=100
23:59:41 <elliott> olsner: i want to see these in a fucking gallery