00:00:07 <elliott> calamari: does Phantom_Hoover know
00:00:20 <elliott> calamari: i'd keep a close eye on yr brain for a while
00:00:25 <elliott> you never know when he might swap it for a brick
00:00:35 <Sgeo> Does PH know I made a BF derivative?
00:01:06 <elliott> Sgeo with all due respect i think phs opinion on the matter would be that nothing needs to be done to complete the brainbricking procedure
00:01:24 <calamari> here's mine http://esolangs.org/wiki/BitChanger
00:02:44 <Sgeo> How easy is it to use PSOX with BitChangeer
00:03:29 -!- MoALTz_ has joined.
00:03:42 <elliott> calamari: whoa, that predates Ook!
00:03:46 <elliott> when was the first bf derivative?
00:03:52 -!- MoALTz__ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
00:04:34 <elliott> do we know whether Urban knew about P''?
00:08:17 <elliott> here's an email i sent to B Nomic once http://sprunge.us/UXbU
00:09:07 <elliott> I think that was after "if you're obligated to twiddle some state it gets automatically twiddled" or something was introduced
00:10:07 * Sgeo whats at all the text.
00:10:21 -!- MoALTz__ has joined.
00:10:56 <calamari> Sgeo: I never actually used BitChanger for anything .. and it predates PSOX, because I created EsoAPI in 2005 and PSOX was inspired by EsoAPI
00:11:37 -!- MoALTz_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
00:12:10 <monqy> has anyone used psox for anything
00:13:38 <calamari> I don't know.. I made EsoAPI because I needed something for bos
00:13:55 <Sgeo> monqy, there's the wget.b that pikhq wrote
00:14:02 <Sgeo> Does that count as using it for anything?
00:14:11 <calamari> which was a brainfuck os that I fit inside a floppy boot sector
00:18:10 -!- Tod-Autojoined has changed nick to TodPunk.
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00:24:27 <Mathnerd314> "Nobody apart from ehird can join this contract." <- so selfish
00:25:45 <calamari> my brain now autoconverts rd to rainbow dash
00:28:48 <Sgeo> hi shachaf, monqy
00:29:05 <shachaf> hi Sgeo, monqy, shachaf, monqy, monqy, monqy
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00:37:10 <shachaf> kmc: elliott wants a book title.
00:37:47 <kmc> what book?
00:38:06 <Sgeo> shachaf, clearly, hi
00:38:24 <Sgeo> Where is the lid?
00:38:26 <Sgeo> Where is the lid?
00:38:34 <Sgeo> Where is the liiiiid?
00:38:43 <oerjan> Webscale Quantum Parallel Haskell: A practical approach
00:39:26 <oerjan> Zygohistomorphic Prepromorphisms for Dummies
00:40:00 <oerjan> crash test dummies, that is
00:40:03 <kmc> how about just a pamphlet listing the haskell inside jokes
00:40:09 <kmc> so you can be in the #haskell cool kidz klub
00:43:57 <shachaf> kmc: I expect there are more #haskell inside jokes than there are actual things to learn about Haskell.
00:44:07 <shachaf> So such a book would probably be longer than a real Haskell book.
00:44:28 <elliott> I don't think there's much variety.
00:46:13 <Sgeo> Does Goldilocks count as an inside joke?
00:47:48 <kmc> lol shachaf
00:48:05 <elliott> kmc?? bitter about #haskell???
00:50:45 <quintopia> elliott: what does that nomic program do? i'm too lazy
00:51:25 <elliott> quintopia: Hello, world, I think.
00:51:30 <quintopia> (why did you not add a Program attribute and have the step reference that in a fetch-execute cycle so you could just say "Program is blah")
00:52:04 <elliott> quintopia: that's easier for people to work out
00:52:11 <elliott> B was a game of logical hand grenades
00:53:58 <zzo38> Do you know the Goldilock's method to generate ability scores? I have wrote a program for it on my calculator, to work with Dungeons&Dragons, but it can also be used with Icosahedral RPG
00:54:11 <zzo38> elliott: What is a game of logical hand grenades?
00:55:29 -!- derdon_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:56:24 <zzo38> "Zygohistomorphic Prepromorphisms for Crash Test Dummies: The Practical Approach"
01:09:14 <Sgeo> oerjan, what did Goldilocks say when she saw "Maybe (b -> Either a b)"?
01:09:47 <zzo38> Sgeo: I have seen that one too
01:10:13 <Sgeo> zzo38, yes, because I made it
01:15:58 <monqy> is it ok if i give up giving up hi i really want to say hi now so bad
01:16:16 <Sgeo> bad so now hi say
01:16:21 <shachaf> The Britain/UK/Crown/Commonwealth thing is so complicated, even elliott doesn't understand it.
01:16:34 <shachaf> monqy: How can it be wrong when it feels so hi?
01:18:29 <shachaf> monqy: teach lambdabot about hi :(
01:37:22 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: bid dice dict ghc id rc src
01:38:57 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: hackage help hitchcock hoogle hoogle+ . ? @ v
01:39:23 <lambdabot> No quotes match. Are you on drugs?
01:40:14 <lambdabot> Supported dictionary-lookup commands:
01:40:14 <lambdabot> all-dicts devils easton elements foldoc gazetteer hitchcock jargon lojban vera web1913 wn world02
01:40:14 <lambdabot> Use "dict-help [cmd...]" for more.
01:40:40 <kmc> @ball-dicks
01:41:44 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: dict kind list ping
01:42:23 <lambdabot> Wouldn't you prefer a nice game of chess?
01:42:47 * oerjan swats kmc and shachaf -----###
01:43:03 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error (possibly incorrect indentation)
01:43:13 <lambdabot> Now, now. What are you swatting them for?
01:43:45 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
01:44:11 <lambdabot> I won't listen to any more commands until you talk to me.
01:44:56 * oerjan swats kmc and shachaf again -----###
01:45:56 <elliott> I like how oerjan has now given four swattings to other people for something I did.
01:47:11 <elliott> I get the feeling this silence is a prelude to oerjan kicking me or something.
01:48:57 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: bid id let list map slap
01:49:05 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: do help map show yow
01:49:15 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: do ft let show vote what yow
01:49:19 <elliott> Did I get out of swatting?
01:50:04 <lambdabot> http://www.haskell.org/hawiki/HaskellUserLocations
01:51:20 * elliott wonders what oerjan is doing.
01:51:39 <oerjan> trying to find out what @hi is interpreted as
01:51:45 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: localtime localtime-reply lojban do
01:52:40 <lambdabot> Error: 501 Syntax error, illegal parameters
01:53:08 <lambdabot> Error: 501 Syntax error, illegal parametersError: 501 Syntax error, illegal parameters
01:55:06 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:55:55 <lambdabot> Error: 501 Syntax error, illegal parameters
01:55:58 <lambdabot> Error: 501 Syntax error, illegal parameters
01:56:00 <lambdabot> Error: 501 Syntax error, illegal parameters
01:58:27 <Sgeo> @lojban la lojban
01:58:31 <lambdabot> Error: 501 Syntax error, illegal parametersError: 501 Syntax error, illegal parameters
01:58:34 <Sgeo> @lojban le lojban
01:58:38 <lambdabot> Error: 501 Syntax error, illegal parametersError: 501 Syntax error, illegal parameters
01:58:50 <Sgeo> I forgot even the one sentence I knew
01:59:05 <Sgeo> @lojban le nanmu cu ninmu
01:59:12 <lambdabot> Error: 501 Syntax error, illegal parametersError: 501 Syntax error, illegal parametersError: 501 Syntax error, illegal parametersError: 501 Syntax error, illegal parameters
02:00:45 <elliott> The best thing about being a 10k user on Stack Overflow is that you can see all of Jon Harrop's deleted answers.
02:01:46 <ion> @lojban Iä! Iä! Cthulhu fhtagn!
02:01:53 <lambdabot> Error: 501 Syntax error, illegal parametersError: 501 Syntax error, illegal parametersError: 501 Syntax error, illegal parametersError: 501 Syntax error, illegal parameters
02:05:09 <Sgeo> What is illegal about le nanmu cu ninmu?
02:05:10 <elliott> Sgeo: A colostomy bag of a programmer.
02:05:17 <lambdabot> Error: 501 Syntax error, illegal parameters
02:05:24 <Sgeo> @lojban zo'e nanmu
02:05:27 <lambdabot> Error: 501 Syntax error, illegal parametersError: 501 Syntax error, illegal parameters
02:05:38 <elliott> Anyway, he's a complete F# shill with a shitty consultancy selling shitty books.
02:05:38 <Sgeo> zo'e should always be a legal parameter right?
02:05:49 <elliott> He spends his time trolling internet forums talking about how useless Haskell and other languages he doesn't consult for are.
02:05:54 <lambdabot> Error: 501 Syntax error, illegal parameters
02:05:57 <elliott> And slandering a bunch of people along the way.
02:06:07 <elliott> And making idiotic blog posts about it.
02:06:09 <Sgeo> @lojban le sumti cu sumti
02:06:15 <lambdabot> Error: 501 Syntax error, illegal parametersError: 501 Syntax error, illegal parametersError: 501 Syntax error, illegal parametersError: 501 Syntax error, illegal parameters
02:06:47 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> Is this a legal statement
02:06:47 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> le sumti cu sumti
02:06:47 <Sgeo> <teryrei> absolutely.
02:07:05 * oerjan wonders if Sgeo is really missing the point here
02:07:22 <lambdabot> I perform dictionary lookups via the following 13 commands:
02:07:22 <lambdabot> all-dicts ... Query all databases on dict.org
02:07:22 <lambdabot> devils ...... The Devil's Dictionary
02:07:22 <lambdabot> easton ...... Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary
02:07:46 <Sgeo> @lojban all-dicts hi
02:07:48 <lambdabot> Error: 501 Syntax error, illegal parametersError: 501 Syntax error, illegal parameters
02:07:51 <lambdabot> dict provides: dict dict-help all-dicts devils easton elements foldoc gazetteer hitchcock jargon lojban vera web1913 wn world02
02:08:48 <lambdabot> Error: 501 Syntax error, illegal parameters
02:08:58 <Sgeo> So what the fark does @lojban do, exactly?
02:09:49 <lambdabot> *** "Hello" gcide "The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48"
02:09:49 <lambdabot> An exclamation used as a greeting, to call attention, as an
02:09:49 <lambdabot> exclamation of surprise, or to encourage one. This variant of
02:09:49 <lambdabot> {Halloo} and {Holloo} has become the dominant form. In the
02:09:56 <Sgeo> @all-dicts sumti
02:09:58 <lambdabot> *** "hello" foldoc "The Free On-line Dictionary of Computing (26 July 2010)"
02:10:05 <lambdabot> <programming> The canonical minimal test message in the
02:10:11 <lambdabot> {C}/{Unix} universe or any of the minimal programs that emit
02:10:17 <lambdabot> Traditionally, the first program a C coder writes in a new
02:10:19 <lambdabot> environment is one that just prints "hello, world" to standard
02:10:23 <lambdabot> output (and indeed it is the first example program in {K&R}).
02:10:27 <lambdabot> Plugin `more' failed with: thread killed
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02:12:05 * Sgeo points teryrei at lambdabot
02:12:11 <lambdabot> Error: 501 Syntax error, illegal parameters
02:12:29 <Sgeo> Which seems to be a dictionary thing that's broken
02:12:48 <HackEgo> TERYREI: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE
02:12:52 <elliott> SORRY ABOUT THE CAPS, I'M IRCING FROM A COMMODORE 64.
02:13:24 <Sgeo> Hmm, maybe lambdabot is using a Lojban dictionary on the web that moved stuff around?
02:13:30 <oerjan> elliott: IT WOULD BE FINE IF THE LINK WORKED
02:13:45 <lambdabot> *** "hacker" jargon "The Jargon File (version 4.4.7, 29 Dec 2003)"
02:13:45 <lambdabot> [originally, someone who makes furniture with an axe]
02:14:22 <Sgeo> teryrei, is there a particular web-based dictionary that would likely have been used, and has it changed around?
02:14:54 <teryrei> the web-based dictionaries that are primarily used are vlasisku and jbovlaste
02:15:01 <elliott> OERJAN: UNFORTUNATELY, IT IS DIFFICULT TO CODE SUCH THINGS ON A COMMODORE 64.
02:15:10 <shachaf> oerjan: Wait, what did I get double-swatted for?
02:15:19 <oerjan> elliott: YOU MUST USE BASIC, OF COURSE
02:15:20 <elliott> ALSO, LAMBDABOT IS OBVIOUSLY NOT USING WEB-BASED DICTIONARIES.
02:15:26 <elliott> EVEN I KNOW THAT. AND I USE COMMODORE 64S
02:15:35 <oerjan> shachaf: you were the closest lambdabot admin
02:15:43 <shachaf> oerjan: I'm not a lambdabot admin. :-(
02:15:51 <shachaf> I don't think kmc is a lambdabot admin either.
02:16:04 <elliott> HEY, I EVEN PLEADED GUILTY!
02:16:08 <elliott> OERJAN JUST REALLY LIKES SWATTING YOU.
02:16:19 <oerjan> I REFUSE TO BELIEVE ELLIOTT IS AN ADMIN AND YOU AREN'T
02:16:43 <shachaf> oerjan: The trick elliott used to becoming a lambdabot admin was along the lines of "Cale, make me an admin!"
02:16:45 <elliott> SHACHAF IS AN ADMIN ONLY BECAUSE HE LOGS IN WITH THE NICK OF REAL ADMINS TO @ADMIN + HIMSELF
02:17:08 <shachaf> elliott: HEY, YOU DON'T KNOW WHICH OF LAMBDABOT'S MANY SECURITY FLAWS I'M USING!
02:17:09 <elliott> SHACHAF: ACTUALLY, SOMEONE ASKED ME WHY I WASN'T A LAMBDABOT ADMIN, AND I SAID "GOOD QUESTION! CALE, WHY AREN'T I A LAMBDABOT ADMIN?"
02:17:12 <elliott> AND THEN I WAS LAMBDABOT ADMIN
02:17:36 <kmc> irssi only highlights "^kmc[:,]" and not "kmc"?
02:17:39 <shachaf> elliott: HMM, LET'S STAGE THAT IN #HASKELL, EXCEPT WITH S/YOU/ME/G
02:17:51 <shachaf> kmc: You can tell it to highlight "kmc", though.
02:17:51 <elliott> KMC: THAT'S ONE OF IRSSI'S MANY BUGS (BUG, N. BEHAVIOUR I DISLIKE)
02:18:03 <kmc> how shachaf? i looked for at least 15 seconds and couldn't find
02:18:03 <shachaf> kmc: I don't think that [:,] is part of the regexp, actually.
02:18:09 <kmc> yeah that did it
02:19:15 <kmc> got that too
02:20:10 <kmc> shachaf: u creepy stalker
02:20:30 <oerjan> and then oerjan tests some more
02:22:57 <oerjan> ^ul (<CTCP>ACTION helps oerjan with the testing<CTCP>)S
02:22:58 * fungot helps oerjan with the testing
02:24:04 <oerjan> that was a really ugly color
02:24:39 <oerjan> fungot: what do you think?
02:24:39 <fungot> oerjan: that you all for them, i have come up with a " i have lots, probably! if not, we can make the cutest cards ever for a series of puns.
02:25:30 <oerjan> ^ul (<CTCP>ACTION helps oerjan with the testing<CTCP>)S
02:25:30 * fungot helps oerjan with the testing
02:30:11 <shachaf> kmc: What's /usr/lib/tracker/tracker-* supposed to be?
02:32:40 <kmc> shachaf: ?
02:32:43 <kmc> i've never heard of those files
02:33:55 <shachaf> kmc: They're programs that are running and using lots of CPU.
02:33:59 <shachaf> I thought you would know. :-(
02:34:08 <shachaf> (gnome-settings-daemon:11549): PackageKit-WARNING **: do something?
02:35:08 <ion> Tracker indexes your stuff so you can search instantaneously by content.
02:35:49 <ion> It also provides a generic metadata store for programs.
02:35:52 <shachaf> I don't want tracker to track.
02:35:58 <shachaf> ion: How do I untracker. :-(
02:36:43 <ion> ＨＥＬＬＯ ＴＯ ＹＯＵ， ＥＬＩＯＴ！
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02:36:51 <elliott> this is what happems when you irc from space people
02:37:02 <elliott> kmc: how good would mosh be in space
02:37:13 <elliott> let's make it easy let's say mars
02:37:40 <ion> shachaf: It shouldn’t use a lot of resources after the initial indexing. And it should use the lowest priority in any case.
02:39:15 -!- teryrei has left.
02:39:36 <shachaf> ion: Also, why do I randomly get pseudo-disconnected from the wireless network?
02:39:44 <shachaf> As in 169.254.*. Maybe it's a dhcp issue?
02:40:10 <ion> /var/log/syslog
02:40:50 <elliott> finally i drove teryrei away
02:41:03 <elliott> all it took was going into space
02:41:07 <pikhq_> elliott: Half-hour latency remains a *bitch*.
02:42:23 <shachaf> I just came up with yet another argument against the cat-haters!
02:42:39 <shachaf> The people who say you should do "foo < file" or "foo file" instead of "cat file | foo".
02:42:49 <shachaf> Who are, by the way, wrong.
02:43:08 <shachaf> The other argument is sudo cat file | less, instead of sudo less file.
02:43:48 <elliott> shachaf: i stand in solidarity w/ u
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02:43:53 <ion> <file.in foo | bar | baz >file.out
02:44:42 <shachaf> ion: Doesn't work with sudo!
02:44:44 <pikhq_> shachaf: Given that /bin/cat is probably GNU, running "less file" as root probably presents less of an attack surface than "cat file".
02:44:49 <shachaf> Apr 13 19:43:12 carbon dhclient: DHCPDISCOVER on wlan0 to 255.255.255.255 port 67 interval 10
02:44:52 <shachaf> Apr 13 19:43:22 carbon dhclient: No DHCPOFFERS received.
02:44:55 <shachaf> Apr 13 19:43:22 carbon dhclient: Trying recorded lease 192.168.1.80
02:44:57 <shachaf> Apr 13 19:43:25 carbon avahi-autoipd(wlan0)[7970]: No longer a routable address configured, restarting probe process.
02:45:00 <shachaf> Apr 13 19:43:25 carbon dhclient: No working leases in persistent database - sleeping.
02:45:03 <shachaf> Apr 13 19:43:30 carbon avahi-autoipd(wlan0)[7970]: Callout BIND, address 169.254.9.114 on interface wlan0
02:45:06 <shachaf> Apr 13 19:43:34 carbon avahi-autoipd(wlan0)[7970]: Successfully claimed IP address 169.254.9.114
02:45:16 <ion> TIL: this less doesn’t come from GNU.
02:45:30 <pikhq_> Oh, crap, less is also GNU.
02:46:11 <shachaf> Today, ion and pikhq_ exchanged knowledge.
02:46:30 <pikhq_> It sure as hell isn't.
02:46:35 <ion> Interesting. Mine comes from <http://www.greenwoodsoftware.com/less/> but there seems to be <http://www.gnu.org/software/less/> as well.
02:46:44 <shachaf> I don't like all these things.
02:46:53 <shachaf> How do I unthing my computer. :-(
02:46:56 <pikhq_> The man page says "less is part of the GNU project and is free software.", but it is not © FSF.
02:48:02 <elliott> My less cometh from whence the ion disclosed alsowards.
02:48:04 <pikhq_> I'm going with "confusing".
02:48:08 <ion> shachaf: Avahi is a Good Thing™. The problem is the “No DHCPOFFERS received” part.
02:48:32 <pikhq_> Hmm. /bin/cat is 52k, /bin/less is 148k.
02:48:36 <elliott> ion: avahi is Poetteringware. Are you *sure* it's a Good Thing?
02:48:39 <shachaf> Also, does that mean that the lease expired? Why can't it just stick with the old IP until it gets a new one?
02:48:40 <elliott> I don't think Poetteringware can be a Good Thing.
02:48:43 <oerjan> <shachaf> In the linear sense. <-- you mean the original knowledge was destroyed?
02:49:37 <pikhq_> Avahi implements Zeroconf.
02:50:03 <ion> shachaf: When there is no DHCP server it’s probably invalid behavior to keep an address some previously existing DHCP server happened to give to you for a period.
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02:51:19 <shachaf> ion: Are you saying the problem might maybe be with the server?
02:52:19 <ion> All i know is that your DHCP queries don’t make it to the server OR the DHCP responses don’t make it to your client. You’ll need to investigate more.
02:52:37 <elliott> ion answers shachaf's questions but not mine. :'(
02:52:50 <ion> Is the cable working? Do any other computers have the same problem? Anything interesting in /var/log/syslog on the server?
02:52:53 <shachaf> ion: When I reconnect to the wireless network from scratch, it always works.
02:53:09 <shachaf> I'm at a public place, so I don't really know about other computers. But I doubt it.
02:53:15 <ion> shachaf: A wireless driver problem perhaps.
02:53:40 <shachaf> I recently ran a dist-upgrade.
02:53:52 <shachaf> I mean just a regular upgrade.
02:53:57 <shachaf> The dist- was out of habit.
02:53:59 <shachaf> Well, I ran it a while ago, but I rebooted for the first time since then.
02:54:37 * elliott always does dist-upgrade, too.
02:54:57 <ion> elliott: Avahi actually feels like quite a solid piece of software.
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02:56:10 <pikhq_> elliott: It seems to be early Poettering.
02:56:40 <pikhq_> Before he went around just trying to break everything.
02:56:45 <elliott> There are stages of Poettering?
02:56:49 <elliott> When does it become fatal?
02:57:02 <ion> To self or everyone else?
02:57:29 <elliott> Is there a difference, man?
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03:04:10 <zzo38> What happen if with (a -> Bool) -> a instead is f a -> a if f is contravariant functor?
03:04:16 <ion> By the way: http://youtu.be/_whSnPErl7c
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03:13:38 <shachaf> ion: Tracker is still going.
03:13:57 <shachaf> My computer is rendered mostly unusable by the constant hard disk usage.
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03:40:31 <Sgeo> elliott, monqy non-working UPDATE
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04:22:22 <elliott> kmc: "Apply deepSeqArray to up to four arrays. The implementation of this function has been hand-unwound to work for up to four arrays. Putting more in the list yields error."
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04:22:30 <elliott> http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/repa/3.1.1.1/doc/html/src/Data-Array-Repa-Base.html#deepSeqArrays
04:22:40 <HackEgo> rubygloom: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
04:24:04 <quintopia> what happens in illinois? is it boring?
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04:47:43 <Sato0x> Did you ssee my language?
04:48:38 <Sato0x> some nice guy edited to make it look nice
04:48:46 <Sato0x> just a few minutes after I published it
04:50:38 <Sato0x> http://esolangs.org/wiki/EGL
04:54:29 <quintopia> yes i am being overly honest without concern for your feelings
04:55:00 <Sato0x> you intend to offend me without regard to the subject
04:55:11 <quintopia> however, you should know that the esolang community is to particular languages what the planet earth is to individual humans
04:55:40 <quintopia> it doesnt care unless its interesting enough to achieve celebrity status
04:56:14 <quintopia> and you should not expect anyone to have seen your language just because you posted it on the wiki
04:56:40 <quintopia> what does it take for a language to achieve celebrity status?
04:57:01 <quintopia> it has to probe some heretofore unexplored aspect of the design space
04:57:41 <quintopia> what is your preferred language to program in?
04:58:23 <Sato0x> mainly php since I usually do web dev
04:58:44 <Sato0x> though I wrote an interpreter in perl and php
04:58:56 <quintopia> what languages have you played with in the past besides those?
04:59:08 <Sato0x> I'm trying to learn c++ right now
04:59:16 <Sato0x> I've read a fair bit about asm
04:59:48 <quintopia> you have your whole life ahead of you!
05:00:20 <kmc> Sato0x: http://me.veekun.com/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/
05:00:34 <quintopia> get a photo of you and turing standing next to the haskell tower!
05:00:36 <kmc> (I'm helping!)
05:01:25 <Sgeo> onmoon(quintopia).
05:01:29 <quintopia> set FORTH on an adventure (preferably a rogue-like)
05:02:15 <zzo38> I agree that PHP is full of bad designs. However I could get many things to work in PHP which are not built-in, such as partially applied functions, and pointers.
05:02:18 -!- elliott has joined.
05:02:20 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Sat Apr 14 06:02:50
05:02:24 <quintopia> once you have seen the wonders of the world, you will be easily capable of creating a esolang that every will have read before you even have to ask
05:02:31 <lambdabot> Local time for zzo38 is 2012/04/13 21:53:38 -0700
05:02:34 <Sato0x> kmc: Those are opinions; php works just fine for me and accomplishes what I need it to do.
05:02:41 <kmc> no they are not opinions
05:02:45 <kmc> it is a massive list of technical facts
05:02:55 <elliott> *is someone defending php and still in this channel
05:02:55 <coppro> can someone give me ops for a moment?
05:03:06 <elliott> (sorry i made a typo by omitting words)
05:03:51 <coppro> wow we only have 6 ops here?
05:03:59 <coppro> several of whom are never seen
05:04:05 <quintopia> elliott: Sato0x made a cross between befunge and brainfuck and came in here asking "have you seen my new language?!?"
05:04:17 <kmc> Sato0x: if I tried to build a house by hammering the nails in with my own forehead
05:04:23 <elliott> quintopia: i don't mind that! i mind defending php though
05:04:23 <kmc> it would be your "opinion" that i'm doin it rong
05:04:33 <quintopia> so i said he should branch out from the imperative/procedural languages he came from
05:04:34 <elliott> how long has this been going on btw
05:04:40 <elliott> i get the feeling: a while
05:04:42 <Sato0x> Depends, did the house end up being built?
05:04:43 <coppro> I need to /invite someone :(
05:04:51 <kmc> yes, and my brain severely damaged in the process
05:04:55 <shachaf> coppro: You need to be an op for that?
05:05:01 <kmc> this would explain why people continue to defend PHP of course
05:06:21 <Sato0x> php is more like a functioning electric screw driver.
05:06:37 <kmc> php is more like putting nails into your dick
05:06:39 <kmc> but anyway
05:06:45 <kmc> it's hard to argue with someone who thinks PHP is good
05:07:11 <Sato0x> Indeed; they have too many valid points.
05:07:12 <kmc> just know that everyone else in the world of programming is laughing at you
05:07:20 <kmc> until your website compromises our data
05:07:30 <elliott> Sato0x: btw where is the actual EGL info on detain.me, i can't find any
05:07:49 <Sato0x> detain.me/tools/egl.php
05:08:07 <elliott> is that actually linked anywhere from the site
05:08:12 <zzo38> PHP is not so good (JavaScript is better than PHP, but, a lot of things are better than PHP, anyways); but, a few things that PHP lacks are possible to implement anyways but not in the better way of another programming language
05:08:23 <elliott> http://detain.me/articles/ no there's not
05:08:23 <qfr> JavaScript is awful, too :(
05:08:37 <kmc> javascript is not great but nothing compares to PHP
05:08:39 <zzo38> qfr: Well, it is better than PHP, at least.
05:08:40 <qfr> it's PHP all over again
05:08:42 <kmc> it is the blind leading the blind
05:09:05 <kmc> Sato0x: so did you actually read the article
05:09:07 <elliott> javascript was at least designed by someone who knows things
05:09:13 <kmc> and its literally hundreds of examples of how PHP is completely insnae
05:09:17 <Sgeo> Should I be scareD?
05:09:22 <elliott> saddled with bad requirements (and then tarnished by terrible API design)
05:09:22 <kmc> these are not opinions, they are facts about the language
05:09:28 <Sato0x> I'll reupload it when I get on my desktop
05:10:06 <shachaf> Is that a UNIX daemon that shows you a screaming face at random intervals during the night?
05:10:25 <zzo38> (I am refering to JavaScript without DOM, just to clarify)
05:10:29 <elliott> Sato0x: "=> isn’t an operator. It’s a special construct that only exists inside array(...) and the foreach construct." is this an opinion
05:10:43 <Sgeo> T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM
05:10:50 <elliott> kmc: that article is way too long and bullshit
05:10:55 <shachaf> Sgeo: AND WHAT'S WRONG WITH THAT????
05:11:00 <elliott> the only thing anyone needs to know about PHP is http://catseye.tc/about/php.html
05:11:05 <kmc> the problem with PHP is that anyone halfway competent gives up on it and switches to something, anything else
05:11:24 <Sato0x> I don't see how that's bad
05:11:39 <elliott> `addquote <kmc> the problem with PHP is that anyone halfway competent gives up on it and switches to something, anything else <Sato0x> fact <Sato0x> I don't see how that's bad
05:11:42 <HackEgo> 830) <kmc> the problem with PHP is that anyone halfway competent gives up on it and switches to something, anything else <Sato0x> fact <Sato0x> I don't see how that's bad
05:11:50 <elliott> * Cannot join ##esoteric (Channel is invite only).
05:11:53 <monqy> are you really bothering arguing with someone who thinks php is good
05:12:05 <kmc> Sato0x: uh, it's bad because all PHP code and the interpreter itself is written by idiots who give bad advice?
05:12:07 <monqy> i misspeleled @esoptermci
05:12:15 <shachaf> > (compare `on` take 1) "hi" "hey"
05:12:28 <elliott> kmc: he was responding to my statement i think
05:12:30 <zzo38> Well, I have written programs in PHP, and have emulated partially applied functions and so on. The FurryScript engine is written in PHP. Icoruma is written in PHP but I might rewrite it in something else. However, Internet Quiz Engine (more modern than those two programs) is written in C; it is better idea.
05:12:38 <elliott> Sato0x: "create_function is basically a wrapper around eval. It creates a function with a regular name and installs it globally (so it will never be garbage collected—don’t use in a loop!). It doesn’t actually know anything about the current scope, so it’s not a closure. The name contains a NUL byte so it can never conflict with a regular function (because PHP’s parser fails if there’s a NUL in a file anywhere)." also not an opinon
05:12:44 <elliott> Sato0x: "Declaring a function named __lambda_func will break create_function—the actual implementation is to eval-create the function named __lambda_func, then internally rename it to the broken name. If __lambda_func already exists, the first part will throw a fatal error." also not an opinion
05:12:47 <kmc> http://use.perl.org/use.perl.org/_Aristotle/journal/33448.html
05:12:53 <kmc> if (size > INT_MAX || size <= 0)
05:12:55 <zzo38> elliott: create_function is very stupid *never* use it
05:12:57 <kmc> float size;
05:13:03 <kmc> THIS IS HOW THE PHP INTERPRETER WORKS
05:13:10 <elliott> "parse_str parses a query string, with no indication of this in the name. Also it acts just like register_globals and dumps the query into your local scope as variables, unless you pass it an array to populate. (It returns nothing, of course.)" also not an opinion
05:13:18 <kmc> http://phpsadness.com/sad/47 who needs to compare the other half of your password hash, anyway?
05:13:26 <shachaf> kmc: Wow, those PHP people. "size" should be a double.
05:13:32 <kmc> srsly shachaf
05:14:07 <kmc> they wanted to check if the malloc size would overflow
05:14:19 <kmc> so they checked the int against INT_MASH
05:14:20 <zzo38> PHP does have a feature that a callback can be not only the name of a function but can also be an object together with the name of one of its methods; this can be used to emulate partially applied functions
05:14:29 <elliott> that's the greatest constant ever
05:14:30 <kmc> frash prugin
05:14:53 <shachaf> this can be used to emulate partially applied functions, and also some other types of functions
05:15:17 <zzo38> It is one of the best features of PHP, and is still not very good. That shows you that PHP is not very good.
05:15:21 <kmc> but after they realized that comparing an int to INT_MAX is no use
05:15:24 <kmc> they changed it to a float
05:16:07 <Sato0x> I've never had to use create_function..
05:16:21 <Sato0x> none of the things stated have been problems for me
05:16:58 <kmc> i put some scorpions down my pants just now
05:17:01 <kmc> no stings yet
05:17:12 <monqy> ive been living with scorpions in my pants for ten years
05:17:17 <kmc> so i feel justified in ignoring the very long and detailed "don't put scorpions down your pants" blog article
05:17:31 <elliott> (the sting party is ##php)
05:17:42 <elliott> (everyone just awkwardly gazing at everyone else's scrotch-scorpions)
05:17:47 <elliott> ("mine isn't stinging properly")
05:17:56 <elliott> ("oh it's glued up, let me help you")
05:18:07 <elliott> (i don't remember typing scrotch
05:18:09 <zzo38> Maybe they are dead
05:18:27 <zzo38> That is why they are not stinging properly
05:18:29 <monqy> i nurture my scorpions daily, and replace them when they die
05:18:29 <elliott> as they say, don't put scorpions down your pants unless you can deal with the glue
05:18:33 <monqy> i give them proper burials
05:18:39 <monqy> Sato0x: who says that
05:18:49 <monqy> Sato0x: if any of my friends said that i would stop being friends with that friend
05:19:02 <Sato0x> I heard it on the radio actually
05:19:04 <elliott> once i committed genocide against an entire continent
05:19:09 <Sato0x> then people from school were saying it
05:19:16 <elliott> and we had a crotch scorpion sting party
05:19:19 <monqy> shachaf: do you say "haters gonna hate"
05:19:27 <elliott> shachaf doesn't say "haters gonna hate"
05:19:31 <elliott> he says "\"haters gonna hate\""
05:19:46 <shachaf> "\"\\\"haters gonna hate \\\"\""
05:20:04 <elliott> BREAKING NEWS saxophone mathematician invents saxiom of choice
05:20:38 <zzo38> What is a "saxiom of choice"? Is that anything like "axiom of choice"?
05:21:25 <Sato0x> Stubbornness will block enlightenment, but will lead to random negative remarks
05:21:42 <monqy> Sato0x wisdom, by Sato0x
05:21:44 <shachaf> kmc: Are you supposed to compare password hashes with ==, anyway?
05:21:52 <shachaf> I mean, I guess you don't have to worry about timing attacks in general.
05:22:10 <shachaf> You might still leak the first few bytes that way...
05:22:12 <kmc> shachaf: programming in PHP is easy, you just need to not make any mistakes
05:22:25 <shachaf> I mean in general, not just PHP.
05:22:50 <shachaf> The question is whether you should use a constant-time comparison function for password hashes. It's probably not a big deal.
05:23:13 <Sato0x> I hate fruit juice because a bug might have touched the fruit
05:23:16 <zzo38> You are entitled to your opinion.
05:23:23 <Sato0x> therefore I will never drink a fruit juice
05:23:30 <monqy> you're a bad person
05:23:32 <Sato0x> analogous to this situation
05:23:33 <monqy> fruit juice is good
05:23:37 <kmc> shachaf: if you're using PHP then timing attacks are like your last concern
05:23:38 <zzo38> You don't like a bug juice too?
05:23:48 <shachaf> kmc: This isn't about PHP anymore!
05:24:03 <shachaf> kmc: I've made an effort to get PHP out of my head. You keep putting it back. :-(
05:24:07 <kmc> fair point then
05:24:10 <elliott> > (<?php echo "help" ?> welcome to my web page)ok
05:24:22 <elliott> it must be a great language!!!
05:24:35 <shachaf> kmc: You've switched from "," to ":" as the nick-addressing character. I assume this has to do with your client switch.
05:24:39 <kmc> haskell is the cloudscale language for the post-PHP world
05:24:40 <elliott> > (<?php echo "help" ?> welcome to my web page)ok
05:24:43 <kmc> shachaf: yes
05:24:45 <shachaf> But ":" is the One True Character, so I'm glad you've seen the light.
05:24:51 <kmc> it's so much more businesslike
05:24:56 <elliott> Sato0x: i'm sorry i doubted you
05:25:10 <zzo38> I prefer using : for that purpose too but you do what you like
05:25:32 <zzo38> I also use : after the "Dear" line in any letter I write
05:25:35 <elliott> kmc: i don't understand people who use "foo,"
05:26:01 <elliott> this code is all copyrighted btw
05:26:24 <shachaf> elliott: We've been over this.
05:26:24 <elliott> <elliott> @let welcome = 42; echo = (); to = (); my = (); web = (); page = (); (<?) = (const . const) (text "(help welcome to my web page)ok"); (?>) _ _ = undefined; php = undefined; ok = undefined; infixl 1 <?
05:26:34 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `hi'Not in scope: `monqy'
05:26:58 <kmc> Sato0x: great analogy bro
05:27:09 <kmc> a more appropriate analogy is
05:27:23 <kmc> "people keep telling me not to drink antifreeze, but it tastes great! haters gonna hate"
05:27:57 <Sato0x> stubborn people will try anything to put their opinions over facts
05:28:22 <kmc> "here is a detailed article about how antifreeze is bad for you. OH IT'S JUST OPINIONS"
05:28:26 <elliott> i think kmc is ignoring Sato0x's wisdom
05:28:36 <elliott> he puts two spaces after sentence-ending punctuation
05:28:39 <shachaf> kmc: I can tell that you miss the conversations of #haskell
05:28:48 <monqy> hey, I put two spaces after sentence-ending punctuation! sometimes.
05:29:00 <monqy> other times I put spaces before sentence ending punctuation !!!instead
05:29:07 <kmc> i put \r\n after sentence-ending punctuation
05:29:11 <monqy> is your stomach churned
05:29:52 <Sato0x> antifreeze is a bit different than php
05:29:59 <Sato0x> -.-, but haters gonna hate
05:30:22 <kmc> yes, drinking antifreeze is bad for only one person, while writing websites in PHP is a danger to society at large
05:30:25 <monqy> how antifreeze is a bitt different than php
05:30:26 <kmc> so they are quite different
05:30:30 <monqy> and how -.-, but haters gonna hate
05:30:40 <monqy> i need to know about -.-, but haters gonna hate
05:30:42 <kmc> haters gonna make som valid points
05:31:02 <shachaf> `addquote <kmc> haters gonna make som valid points
05:31:02 <elliott> http://www.topatoco.com/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=TO&Product_Code=PFSC-HATERS&Category_Code=PFSC
05:31:05 <HackEgo> 831) <kmc> haters gonna make som valid points
05:31:06 <zzo38> But one of the most portable programming languages is TeX. TeX is very good for typesetting and occasionally other things are done too.
05:31:16 <elliott> that quote is now (c) pfsc forever :'(
05:31:21 <elliott> quotes "the copyright violation"
05:31:24 <shachaf> Calling TeX portable is a bit funny.
05:31:31 <monqy> kmc, shachaf "under arest for copeyright vioplation"
05:31:41 <monqy> do not collect $200
05:31:41 <shachaf> By the way, I can make TeX on my system segfault!
05:31:50 <zzo38> shachaf: Really? TeX is very portable. That is, if it is true Plain TeX.
05:31:55 <monqy> one time I segfaulted cpython
05:31:58 <elliott> anyway can we just ban Sato0x for saying "haters gonna hate"
05:32:04 <zzo38> shachaf: Can you show how?
05:32:14 <elliott> monqy: one time I segfaulted GHC!
05:32:25 <shachaf> zzo38: "portable" if you count a special-purpose program that *compiles it to another programming language* just so it'll run on newer systems.
05:32:35 <monqy> I dodn't do enough ghc black magic
05:32:38 <Sato0x> ->can't think of a way to make php sound bad
05:32:46 <Sato0x> ->compares it to antifreeze
05:32:49 <zzo38> I have segfaulted GHC a few times too
05:32:50 <shachaf> zzo38: Not a program that translates Pascal to C: A program that translates TeX-written-in-Pascal to TeX-written-in-C.
05:32:58 <monqy> Sato0x: but isn't that a way to make php sound bad ?? help
05:33:06 <zzo38> shachaf: I am refering to programs written in TeX; not a program that compiles TeX.
05:33:13 <elliott> monqy: antifreeze is REALLY USEFUL!!!!
05:33:16 <elliott> *antifreese (british english)
05:33:24 <monqy> elliott: so is php, man
05:33:29 <zzo38> And tell me how you make TeX to segfault
05:33:33 <monqy> wikipedia was made possible by the power of php
05:33:36 <elliott> Sato0x: anyway there's a channel where everyone loves php and you should go and talk to them about it
05:33:41 <monqy> imagine a world without wikipedia
05:33:57 <elliott> the ESOLANG WIKI runs on PHP!!!!
05:34:00 <zzo38> That is true; MediaWiki is written in PHP.
05:34:01 <elliott> WE ARE AGENTS OF OUR OWN UNDOING
05:34:08 <monqy> imagine a world without brainfuck derivatives
05:34:12 <kmc> wikipedia is written in PHP and there is absolutely no way they could have used any other language
05:34:15 <elliott> brainfuck derivatives like php
05:34:16 <kmc> truly PHP is the best of all possible worlds
05:35:07 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Sat Apr 14 06:35:37
05:35:16 <lambdabot> Local time for Sato0x is Sat Apr 14 01:35:07 2012
05:35:25 <lambdabot> Local time for monqy is Fri Apr 13 22:35:22 2012
05:36:07 -!- asiekierka has joined.
05:36:13 <elliott> http://detain.me/tools/aimspem.php kmc i think your aim is going to get hecked by Sato0x
05:36:32 <kmc> if evolution is true then why does haskell.org use PHP
05:36:34 <kmc> checkmate atheists
05:37:10 <zzo38> kmc: The reason is because they use MediaWiki; it has nothing to do with evolution
05:37:14 <shachaf> kmc: Sadly, evolution is the main cause of that. :-(
05:37:19 <elliott> it's well known that you can't heck aim with haskell
05:37:56 <Sato0x> I'm not sure how someone can actually compulse
05:38:48 <zzo38> Sato0x: I don't particularly like PHP either but I have written some programs using it, such as the FurryScript interpreter.
05:38:51 <elliott> in a pile on the floor here
05:39:09 <elliott> i tried to follow Sato0x on twitter for more insights but the twitter account on http://detain.me/contact/ doesn't exist :'(
05:39:24 <elliott> so much for my life as a twit
05:39:31 <elliott> did you know Twitter isn't written in PHP?
05:39:33 <elliott> that's why it's always down
05:39:57 <zzo38> Sato0x: http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Zzo38/FurryScript
05:40:33 <shachaf> elliott is secretly scared of roar
05:40:39 <kmc> shit i visited the website
05:40:45 <kmc> and my computr is brodacsting an ip address
05:40:53 <kmc> aim hecker
05:41:15 <kmc> aim hecker (n): when ur dronk and u pee so bad all over the toilet that ppl make fun of u
05:41:24 <kmc> (corruption of "aim heckler")
05:41:35 <elliott> `addquote <kmc> aim hecker (n): when ur dronk and u pee so bad all over the toilet that ppl make fun of u <kmc> (corruption of "aim heckler")
05:41:37 <shachaf> Sato0x: are you "for real though" as they say
05:41:38 <HackEgo> 832) <kmc> aim hecker (n): when ur dronk and u pee so bad all over the toilet that ppl make fun of u <kmc> (corruption of "aim heckler")
05:41:46 <kmc> as the kids these days say
05:41:55 <shachaf> Sato0x: Wait, I shouldn't get credit for that.
05:42:03 <shachaf> 22:41 <elliott> is this guy "for real though" as they say
05:42:05 <elliott> <elliott> is this guy "for real though" as they say
05:42:34 -!- elliott has set topic: <kmc> aim hecker (n): when ur dronk and u pee so bad all over the toilet that ppl make fun of u | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
05:42:36 <shachaf> elliott: how can it be corpproright infragment, when u are not corporal
05:42:37 <elliott> our topic was too long anyway
05:42:40 <kmc> they are totally silent (electric engines)
05:42:43 <elliott> shachaf: no its coproright infringement
05:43:01 <shachaf> elliott: Oh, nice job on the -blah topic.
05:43:41 <elliott> fool who dont drink no antifreeze
05:43:45 <shachaf> elliott: The one in the #-blah topic.
05:43:48 <elliott> and dont put no invigorating scorpion down my pants
05:43:52 <kmc> YOU'RE WINNER !
05:44:07 <Sato0x> Does anyone here know malbolge?
05:44:26 <monqy> my friends names malegoblg, that's almost malbolge
05:44:33 <monqy> (i know my friend)
05:44:36 <zzo38> I don't want you to put anything down my pants either (whether it is scorpions or not)
05:44:39 <Sato0x> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Malbolge
05:44:50 <elliott> will it heck me and give me a virus
05:45:11 <shachaf> WITH HIS BOW AND ARROW OR, ALTERNATIVELY, RETRACTABLE ARM?
05:45:34 <elliott> Sato0x: that link is broken man
05:46:02 -!- cswords has joined.
05:46:30 <monqy> maybe you meant: malbulge, malbugle, hello
05:46:44 <Sato0x> and went down for some reason
05:47:04 <Sato0x> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malbolge
05:47:18 <elliott> Sato0x: oh the link works now!
05:47:29 <elliott> goes to a page with some information about some really weird esoteric language
05:47:49 * kmc invents 500 new langugaes which are trivial variations on Malbolge
05:47:55 <monqy> better crack open the antifreeze
05:48:15 <kmc> yeah i wouldn't want to freeze while i'm working
05:48:19 <Sato0x> you guys are all fired up
05:48:22 <elliott> Sato0x: hmm, the language doesn't appear to be called malbolge on this page...
05:48:26 <elliott> can you double-check you got the right link?
05:48:28 <kmc> i poured antifreeze all over my computer
05:48:29 <monqy> i don't want my crotch scorpions to freeze
05:48:32 <monqy> in this cold weather
05:48:34 <kmc> but it still has trouble with flash videos
05:48:43 <zzo38> Let's invent the exactly googolplex number of chess variants
05:48:43 <monqy> it was thunderstorming today; they went crazy down there
05:48:59 <kmc> Sato0x: more like all fired up on PCP
05:49:16 <elliott> Sato0x: can you double check it please :(
05:49:19 <monqy> that's just one letter off from php
05:49:29 <shachaf> Hot grits on your scorpions?
05:49:58 <shachaf> Natalie Portman and scorpions?
05:50:09 <kmc> gay scorpions from outer space
05:50:16 <elliott> because you're going to have to be
05:50:19 <elliott> a little more specific about it
05:50:32 <elliott> but seriously that link is going somewhere weird can you please double-check it
05:51:09 <monqy> what about my moron, elliott?
05:51:15 <Sato0x> you've been blabbering about the topic for 45+ minutes
05:51:24 <elliott> because this is fucking hilarious
05:51:54 <elliott> oh the page works normally now!
05:52:02 <kmc> yes we're having a very serious discussion about PHP and gay scorpians
05:52:07 <kmc> we are so piiiiissssssed at you Sato0x
05:52:11 <kmc> why did you question our groupthink
05:52:22 <elliott> are pristine female specimens
05:52:23 <monqy> i have a special relationship with my scorpions
05:52:28 <kmc> NOT THAT THERES ANYTHING WRONG WITH THAT
05:53:14 <elliott> kmc i tried to use haskell to control my nuclear reactor, if you know what i mean
05:53:21 <elliott> the only bindings i could find were for php
05:53:30 <elliott> you really do just need php
05:53:39 <kmc> you better go swimming in the containment pool
05:54:00 <kmc> NOT AS DISGUSTING AS PHP, AM I RITE?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
05:54:33 <zzo38> Don't repeat yourself
05:55:03 <kmc> ＲＲＲＲＲＲＲＲＲＲＲＲＲＲＲＲ
05:55:05 <zzo38> Don't repeat yourself that many times all at once unless you have something to say please
05:55:14 <elliott> but they were all RRRRRRRRRRRRR
05:55:16 <Sato0x> 'been about 50 minutes now
05:55:25 <monqy> thanks for keeping the time, Sato0x
05:55:39 <kmc> \\\\\\\'been about 50 minutes now
05:55:40 <monqy> I don't know what I'd do without you, and also php
05:55:56 <monqy> hey did you guys see that cobol.com video?
05:56:00 <elliott> kmc: i regstered ur global
05:56:10 <elliott> "With 50 years under its belt, Cobol is set to remain the dominant language for business applications for the next 50 years. Having consistently seen off the young pretenders, Cobol has continued to evolve to meet every new demand thrown at it, from both business and technology."
05:56:16 <elliott> they trying to make cobol hip
05:56:22 <elliott> "Business applications written in Cobol are faster, more precise and more powerful than ever. And now it’s easier than ever to run them on the platforms that make the most business sense – now and in the future.
05:56:22 <elliott> The future’s never been brighter for Cobol. And that’s got to make life better for you, too."
05:56:33 <dbelange> stop talking about cobol this is #esoteric
05:56:35 <kmc> they should get coball.er
05:56:37 <dbelange> let's talk about haskell some more
05:56:38 <elliott> its kind of like antifreeze
05:56:40 <elliott> if you put it in your pants
05:56:44 <elliott> the scorpion doesn't bite as much
05:57:05 <monqy> you should watch the video
05:57:34 <elliott> "to take the enterprise applications of the future ... into the next future"
05:57:38 <elliott> i dont see how cobol can do this
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05:57:45 <elliott> maybe we should stop the nonsense
05:57:52 <HackEgo> Pikcles: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
05:57:55 <kmc> can't stop can't stop can't stop can't stop
05:58:02 <elliott> hi Pikcles, we just spent 50 minutes making fun of someone who likes PHP
05:58:06 <zzo38> I expect whatever program I write in TeX to continue working in the future without any changes
05:58:13 <kmc> Pikcles: did you know your name is an anagram of "Ksplice"?
05:58:33 <elliott> kmc is the anagrams-of-ksplice expert
05:58:40 <kmc> i'm a domain expert
05:58:44 <kmc> this is my domain
05:59:02 <dbelange> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Wang_program
05:59:20 <monqy> my domain and home page is cobol.com
06:01:46 <elliott> these guys are rationalising cobol almost as much as Sato0x rationalises php
06:02:06 <elliott> "curly brace languages like java and c#"
06:02:26 <monqy> cobol is my antidrug
06:04:06 <monqy> my only cobol regret is that isn't php
06:04:39 <zzo38> If you have a type like (f x -> x) in Haskell in case f is Contravariant and Plus (the one without Functor) then can it make a comonad?
06:05:40 <monqy> tell me about how long we've been talking about this
06:06:04 <monqy> thumbs up, wink & smile
06:06:08 <kmc> Sato0x: this is all about you
06:06:11 <elliott> but what's the coolest php feature that
06:06:14 <elliott> you don't think everyone knows
06:06:35 <kmc> <?php gimme_five_dollars(); ?>
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06:08:10 <elliott> sigh how do we stop them coming back
06:08:11 <monqy> there were too many
06:08:23 <monqy> he got overwhelmed by how many great php features there are
06:08:27 <monqy> and had to take a breather
06:10:00 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Sat Apr 14 07:10:30
06:10:27 <monqy> do they have birds where you live
06:13:34 <monqy> I have ducks, but also other birds, and owls
06:15:42 <shachaf> hi elliott, shachaf, monqy, monqy
06:16:24 <elliott> monqy: step 3 wake up late :'(
06:16:41 <monqy> step 4 fun forever
06:17:00 <shachaf> step 3 hi poem, party, monqy
06:17:26 <elliott> your scorpion stops biting
06:17:29 <elliott> and you can't feel your legs any more
06:17:47 <monqy> Q: what time is it when your scorpions stop biting
06:17:51 <monqy> A: time to get new scorpions
06:18:00 <zzo38> Then you should rest or see a doctor or both
06:18:01 <elliott> how can i get new scorpions without legs
06:18:05 <monqy> Q: what time is it when your scorpions stop biting
06:18:09 <monqy> A: time to get new legs
06:18:35 <shachaf> Q:: what time is it when monqy stops saying hi
06:18:52 <elliott> monqy: where do i get new legs
06:19:07 <monqy> discount leg store "we sell discount legs, for less!"
06:19:13 <kmc> powered by PHP
06:19:23 <elliott> you rescued that from the brink of lossage
06:20:07 <kmc> i'm glad you all like my analogies
06:21:07 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Sat Apr 14 07:21:37
06:21:11 <lambdabot> Local time for kmc is Sat Apr 14 02:22:09 2012
06:21:25 <lambdabot> Local time for monqy is Fri Apr 13 23:21:24 2012
06:21:32 <lambdabot> Local time for shachaf is Fri Apr 13 23:21:30 2012
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06:22:10 <zzo38> Can your Dungeons&Dragons characters ride on huge scorpions?
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06:23:35 <elliott> i need to say ksplice three times
06:23:38 <elliott> ksplice ksplice ksplice mosh
06:25:27 <shachaf> But my timezone is in America. :-(
06:25:37 <monqy> shachaf's timezone is indeed in america
06:25:57 <shachaf> The sun never sets on the American Empire.
06:25:59 <elliott> where's the nearest timezone where it isn't half 7
06:26:10 <monqy> maybe the one where it's half 6
06:26:18 <monqy> or half 8, if you prefer that way
06:26:46 <lambdabot> Local time for zzo38 is currently free
06:27:01 <monqy> I want to be in zzo38's time
06:27:07 <monqy> it sounds like a good time
06:27:44 <elliott> i'm not even convinced zzo38 has time
06:27:49 <shachaf> I heard zzo38 has free beer.
06:28:38 <shachaf> Free beer in the category of endofunctors.
06:29:43 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Sat Apr 14 07:30:13
06:30:06 <elliott> i have officially wasted like an hour and a half
06:30:11 <elliott> i hope you're all proud of yourselves
06:30:13 <zzo38> What is your sidereal time?
06:31:39 <shachaf> 23:29 CTCP TIME reply from zzo38: 11h,39m,42s Sidereal Time
06:31:48 <shachaf> zzo38: I didn't send you a CTCP TIME request. :-(
06:31:54 <kmc> Today is Prickle-Prickle, the 31st day of Discord in the YOLD 3178
06:32:06 <lambdabot> Local time for zzo38 is 2012/04/13 23:23:12 -0700
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06:45:59 <kmc> discordian calendar
06:46:07 <kmc> /usr/bin/ddate
06:46:33 <asiekierka> kmc: which package includes it? i'd like to add it to my distro
06:46:40 <kmc> which distro do you maintain
06:46:54 <asiekierka> and it doens't base on any existing package repo either
06:46:59 <kmc> in debian it is in util-linux
06:47:12 <kmc> which experimental libc? one you wrote?
06:47:15 <kmc> what is the experiment
06:47:16 <shachaf> Tomorrow I'll probably explain integrals to my sister.
06:47:23 <asiekierka> kmc: no, by experimental i mean actually standards-compilant
06:47:30 <asiekierka> the only thing i wrote for the distro so far is the package manager
06:47:48 <asiekierka> because all the other ones had either too many dependencies, not enough documentation or just plain failed
06:48:05 <shachaf> kmc: How's your libcfree program going?
06:48:52 <asiekierka> glibc is standards-compilant and also adds a lot of its own things, for compatibility or ease of use
06:49:12 <asiekierka> it also lets us see how many (quite a few, in fact) apps are not libc-compilant but glibc-compilant
06:50:55 <shachaf> Hmm, switch(x) case 0: case 1: ...; is valid C.
06:51:20 <kmc> shachaf: haven't done much recently
06:51:22 <kmc> been working on mosh
06:52:23 <shachaf> So in Windows that's apparently more or less impossible to do.
06:52:30 <shachaf> There's no kernel ABI stability.
06:52:44 <kmc> interesting
06:52:58 <kmc> yeah, I've heard that the Windows kernel API is much nicer than the usual Win32 API
06:53:15 <kmc> in linux tons of compat stuff is handled in the kernel
06:53:19 <kmc> which leads to tons of exploitable holes
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06:53:47 <shachaf> Keeping all that in userspace is a reasonable design decision.
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06:54:50 <asiekierka> i wish mosh didn't have so many dependencies
06:56:11 <qfr> What's mosh
06:56:26 <kmc> it's sad that dependencies are considered such a bad thing
06:56:29 <kmc> people frown on code reuse
06:56:38 <qfr> kmc what are you talking about
06:56:43 <kmc> anyway i have a patchset in for review which removes the boost dependency
06:56:48 <kmc> qfr: http://mosh.mit.edu/
06:56:48 <qfr> Reusing existing libraries is great!
06:57:13 <kmc> boost is a particularly egregious case because your distro will install 100 MB of binary libs, none of which we use
06:57:17 <kmc> we only include a couple headers
06:57:25 <shachaf> I thought boost was all headers.
06:57:30 <qfr> shachaf haha
06:57:41 <qfr> shachaf well, there are pre-compiled headers
06:57:46 <qfr> Although I don't know if gcc supports that
06:57:55 <qfr> At least it has options for that for Visual Studio, I believe
06:58:01 * shachaf is exaggerating, but only by a bit.
06:58:14 <kmc> i'm glad we're using Protocol Buffers rather than rolling our own dumb key-value protocol like everyone does
06:58:22 <kmc> and making exploitable mistakes like everyone does
06:58:28 <kmc> that particular wheel has been reinvented way too many times
06:58:39 <qfr> For my last one I used JSON :(
06:58:43 <kmc> other than that and boost... ncurses and zlib are very standard
06:58:56 <qfr> boost is very standard
06:58:58 <kmc> utempter is actually optional although we don't document that very well
06:59:00 <shachaf> People don't care about code reuse.
06:59:04 <shachaf> They care about inconvenience.
06:59:06 <qfr> Developers do
06:59:09 <qfr> Yes, that too
06:59:27 <kmc> and we use one perl module (you can get by without the Perl wrapper script, if need be)
06:59:29 <shachaf> They don't like libraries just because of the hassle. They don't have anything *against* code reuse.
06:59:36 <kmc> so I don't think mosh has an unreasonable number of dependencies
07:00:31 <kmc> technically you can use mosh without ssh
07:00:31 <shachaf> If mosh is an SSH replacement then why does it depend on SSH?
07:00:45 <kmc> we do a bad job explaining that too
07:00:50 <kmc> mosh depending on ssh is like a burrito
07:01:04 <kmc> oh man, there is a new taqueria 2 blocks from my house
07:01:30 <shachaf> Probably better than the taquería 2 blocks from my house. :-(
07:01:35 <kmc> 's all right
07:01:39 <kmc> i'm withholding judgement for now
07:01:41 <kmc> need more data
07:01:45 <kmc> shachaf: I'm in Boston area...
07:02:02 <shachaf> But I regret going to that one every time I go there.
07:02:11 <kmc> the baseline for a burrito here is that like a guy wraps a rat in butcher paper and slaps you with it
07:02:57 <shachaf> Or back to NY. They have good burritos, right?
07:03:48 <kmc> i should move to SF
07:05:00 <shachaf> Did you know you can register keegan.mc?
07:07:00 <kmc> users don't have anything against code reuse, unlike developers
07:07:29 <shachaf> Developers have something against code reuse?
07:07:47 <asiekierka> kmc - i don't frown against code reuse
07:07:51 <asiekierka> it's just more work for me in this case
07:08:08 <asiekierka> i frown against code reuse only when you use, let's say, 1 function from a library
07:10:50 <shachaf> kmc: Do you have fun typing some text and then holding down backspace to delete the irssi prompt?
07:11:06 <shachaf> It's my new favourite thing to do.
07:11:52 <kmc> i was trying to find the minimum amonut of text to make it work
07:12:04 <kmc> depends on lag though
07:12:20 <kmc> also there's this one library that Mosh uses only a tiny part of
07:12:30 <kmc> and it's under a very permissive license
07:12:38 <shachaf> It doesn't work with one character because mosh needs to see the response from deleting the one character before it realizes that the current behavior is "deleting".
07:12:40 <kmc> so we just included the relevant source and build it ourselves
07:12:46 <shachaf> At least that's my mental model of what mosh does.
07:12:54 <kmc> this is fine *except* on Debian and Ubuntu
07:13:01 <kmc> they don't allow it because they have a package for that library
07:13:09 <asiekierka> well if they have a package you should install the package
07:13:13 <kmc> except their package is built with flags incompatible with the flags Mosh wants to build with
07:13:32 <kmc> it's incompatible *because* it's static
07:13:44 <kmc> https://github.com/keithw/mosh/commit/0eec0b60f0c5b3d94d5e382ea3d4aff35c879ed2
07:14:31 <kmc> i mean we could pick a policy fight with debian
07:14:35 <kmc> or i could write 50 lines of code
07:14:37 <kmc> so i chose the latter
07:15:09 <kmc> but it's pointless make-work
07:15:39 <kmc> i have some sympathy for the rule in general
07:15:56 <shachaf> kmc: You're not using the stddjb idiom of return (errno = EX, -1)?
07:19:48 <shachaf> sizeof values with parentheses is the devil. :-(
07:20:04 <kmc> shachaf: the correct model is not quite "we're in delete mode now"
07:20:14 <kmc> as soon as mosh-client sees backspace, it predicts a delete
07:20:37 <kmc> but it might not be confident enough to display predictions
07:20:41 <shachaf> I don't mean "delete mode", just "responding to keystrokes by printing them mode".
07:21:23 <shachaf> I note that when I type a few characters, it doesn't start predicting responses to the later ones until it gets a response to at least one.
07:21:27 <kmc> shachaf: what's wrong with parens?
07:21:38 <kmc> shachaf: right, after all you might be entering your password
07:21:53 <shachaf> "sizeof(x)" in C is like "foo(x)" in Haskell.
07:22:07 <kmc> except that it's consistent with everything else in the language
07:22:10 <kmc> including sizeof(x_t)
07:22:15 <shachaf> It's an operator that doesn't take parentheses, and it doesn't behave like one that takes parentheses.
07:22:38 <shachaf> For example sizeof(x)[y] === sizeof ((x)[y])
07:23:17 <kmc> i'll keep that in mind next time i want to array index a size_t
07:23:23 <kmc> but yeah, fair enough
07:23:39 <shachaf> http://mauke.hopto.org/stuff/c/sizeof.c
07:24:00 <kmc> i realize the parens are not necessary, but the consistency is nice
07:24:08 <kmc> does code where this is a problem arise in practice?
07:24:36 <shachaf> Some people use "return (...);" too. I think that's reasonably justified -- it's probably less ambiguous than sizeof. :-)
07:24:46 <shachaf> "foo(x)" works in Haskell too.
07:31:48 <shachaf> The VDSO is the first step to Windows-style "syscalls", I guess.
07:33:05 <kmc> except i don't think it will actually move in that direction
07:33:28 <shachaf> Well, they have to keep the kernel ABI stable forever now.
07:33:31 <kmc> right, foo(x) works in Haskell but is inconsistent with the rest of the language
07:33:39 <kmc> sizeof(x) is consistent with the rest of C. (sizeof x) is not
07:33:57 <kmc> i will do "return (...);" sometimes, not always
07:34:04 <shachaf> The parentheses around "sizeof x" are only necessary if "(sizeof(x))" would've been necessary.
07:34:05 <kmc> that's more obviously parens for grouping
07:34:14 <shachaf> Otherwise it's just "sizeof x".
07:34:14 <kmc> shachaf: I know
07:34:34 <kmc> «sizeof(x)» is consistent with the rest of C. «sizeof x» is not
07:34:58 <shachaf> This seems like a silly argument. :-)
07:35:29 <kmc> your point about siezof(x)[y] is valid and I had not thought of that before
07:35:33 <kmc> so i have learned something
07:35:42 <kmc> but all the same I haven't seen it come up in real code
07:36:09 <shachaf> C has very few expression keywords.
07:36:13 <shachaf> In fact, are there any others?
07:36:27 <kmc> you mean using letters rather than punctuation?
07:37:43 <kmc> can't think of one
07:38:18 <kmc> C++ has a fair few
07:38:30 <shachaf> "The sizeof operator yields the size (in bytes) of its operand, which may be an expression or the parenthesized name of a type."
07:39:10 <shachaf> I think another way of thinking about it is that sizeof always takes an expression without parentheses, but you surround it with parentheses in case it's a type, to reduce ambiguity or something.
07:39:37 <shachaf> Expression-keyword-symbols don't generally take parentheses either.
07:40:01 <shachaf> So I'm not sure how much "consistency with the rest of C" there is involved, unless you consider function application.
07:44:14 * itidus21 fires dodgeable segments of laser at shachaf from 50ft away
07:46:18 <kmc> yeah, I meant the more superficial consistency of "this looks like a function call"
07:46:26 <kmc> i realize such things can be misleading
07:46:33 <kmc> but in this case I don't see a big practical problem
07:46:38 <kmc> but of course that's argument from lack of imaginatino
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09:06:27 <shachaf> I am unable to golf below: cppbot: -w {for(int p=28075320;p/=2;)cout<<(p==6854?"- ":p&1?"way ":"pon ");}
09:08:12 <qfr> Nothing useful
09:08:25 <shachaf> 01:39 < cppbot> pon pon way way way pon pon way pon way pon - way way pon pon pon way way pon way pon way way
09:08:31 <shachaf> Came up in another channel.
09:09:04 <ion> shachaf: Huh. If it doesn’t use the idle IO priority, that sounds like a bug worth reporting.
09:09:06 <qfr> Doesn't ring a bell
09:10:23 <ion> <shachaf> My computer is rendered mostly unusable by the constant hard disk usage.
09:11:21 <shachaf> Well, it seems to be done now, so I've become apathetic again.
09:12:39 <kmc> what was your IO job?
09:13:07 <shachaf> I wish computers were simple.
09:20:20 <kmc> then they would suck
09:20:30 <kmc> you can build a shitty simple computer
09:20:49 <kmc> i do enjoy microcontroller programming for this reason though
09:21:43 <qfr> I still want to make my own ISA for some FPGA at some point
09:22:01 <qfr> And then write an awful OS with an IRC client for it
09:22:26 <shachaf> Most (?) complexity involved with computers is incidental, though.
09:22:29 <qfr> And then I can chat with it using some awful miniscule LCD screen and a PS/2 keyboard
09:22:38 <qfr> USB keyboard probably way too difficult
09:22:55 <qfr> If I'm lazy I can still just access it over ethernet
09:23:05 <qfr> Instead of writing drivers for periphery
09:23:10 <kmc> http://6004.csail.mit.edu/ is a really cool course where you design a RISC CPU at the level of logic gates
09:23:33 <kmc> so a bit lower level than usual FPGA work; the logic language is much simpler than verilog or vhdl
09:23:44 <qfr> I'd probably use VHDL
09:24:01 <kmc> USB is not *too* bad
09:24:02 <qfr> I did some superficial IC stuff at university
09:24:06 <qfr> USB is terrifying man
09:24:13 <qfr> The standard for that is like 3000 pages
09:24:14 <kmc> at least, you can implement it in software on a wimpy AVR uC
09:24:22 <kmc> sure but you don't need the full USB standard to talk to a keyboard ;P
09:24:55 <qfr> The class was like this http://siyobik.info.gf/misc/cmos-layout.png
09:25:11 <qfr> The exam would then ask "what logical function does this CMOS circuit implement"
09:25:49 <qfr> Takes me ages to decode stuff like that on paper
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14:42:27 <qfr> Wow, that's quite the quit message on Patashu there
14:42:35 <qfr> Should add his credit card number, too
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15:52:54 <RocketJSquirrel> OK, so this cheapo Chinese tablet is way, WAY better than logic dictates that it should be.
15:53:30 <RocketJSquirrel> Normally with these things you play the "find the redeeming feature" game, but in this case I'm playing and losing the "find the flaw" game.
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17:02:51 <elliott> hey is anyone 188.121.5.150 because that kind of exists already!!
17:03:20 <elliott> (Edit: is it stackoverflow policy to allow censorship of questions through editing (not minor)? It does say "always respect the original author.")
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17:56:30 <ais523> elliott: are we having this conversation in reverse, or something?
17:58:02 <elliott> ais523: If you ask me about the chronology of this conversation one more time, I'm going to end this conversation without even answering!
17:58:16 <ais523> meanwhile, I've been working on Elliottcraft
17:58:18 <ais523> not code, but thoughts
17:58:30 <elliott> i was fully prepared to carry that on for at least half an hour
17:58:34 <ais523> I'm going to make it work as a cellular automaton, finite speed of sound and speed of light makes it much easier to optimise
17:59:12 <ais523> and then I spent much of the rest of the time trying to work out how to implement 3D Hashlife efficiently when at least one of the colors has free will
18:00:10 <elliott> ais523: we had a php defender in here early this morning!
18:00:23 <ais523> hashlife in particular seems to scale badly with number of dimensions
18:00:31 <ais523> although 3 is probably low enough for it to work
18:00:53 <ais523> and wow, I thought PHP was only defended by misinformed people
18:01:43 <elliott> oh, they were most definitely misinformed
18:03:26 <ais523> also, this has a huge number of possible colors for a typical cellular automaton
18:05:23 <ais523> I can't really hate PHP defenders, I can only pity them
18:05:38 <elliott> ais523: you don't understand; they said "haters gonna hate"
18:06:12 <elliott> 07:19:48: <shachaf> sizeof values with parentheses is the devil. :-(
18:06:49 <coppro> programming languages final: what does the following do?
18:06:54 <coppro> filterM $ const [True, False]
18:06:57 <elliott> 07:22:38: <shachaf> For example sizeof(x)[y] === sizeof ((x)[y])
18:07:19 <elliott> coppro: you got that on your final?
18:07:48 * elliott thinks it's a pretty good question, actually; it's easy to work out mechanically, or if you have a strong intuition about the list monad
18:07:57 <coppro> well we had to define filterM first
18:08:02 <elliott> right, so it's even easier :P
18:08:03 <coppro> I did it be rewriting it as a list comprehension
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18:12:20 <elliott> 07:38:30: <shachaf> "The sizeof operator yields the size (in bytes) of its operand, which may be an expression or the parenthesized name of a type."
18:12:20 <elliott> 07:39:10: <shachaf> I think another way of thinking about it is that sizeof always takes an expression without parentheses, but you surround it with parentheses in case it's a type, to reduce ambiguity or something.
18:12:27 <elliott> shachaf: This seems like an argument for `sizeof (foo_t)` to me.
18:12:56 <shachaf> elliott: Right, m aybe it is.
18:13:54 <shachaf> elliott: You got a problem with my syntax?
18:17:12 <elliott> shachaf: Did you know I used to say "if("?
18:17:22 <elliott> I think Rob Pike says "if(".
18:17:25 <shachaf> elliott: I BET YOU USED TO PUT NEWLINES BEFORE YOUR {S.
18:17:47 <elliott> Other than before function bodies.
18:18:11 <shachaf> But you probably did it after every if.
18:18:18 <shachaf> Maybe you wrote code like this:
18:18:22 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Peter_Larsen
18:18:23 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:PLarsen
18:18:25 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/%C3%98rjan_Johansen
18:18:27 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Oerjan
18:19:26 <shachaf> elliott: You also used to declare values like this:
18:19:50 -!- monqy has joined.
18:19:54 <elliott> shachaf: No, I never do that.
18:20:00 <elliott> Did you know that Deewiant_ refers to the type as (char*)?
18:20:06 <elliott> Even though he declares the variables properly.
18:20:11 <shachaf> char* str1,* str2; /* - eliot */
18:21:12 <shachaf> char *(*fn[4])(char (*)(char), int, int);
18:21:28 <elliott> shachaf: By the way, I have frequently used hard tabs in C code.
18:21:39 <monqy> did you mix spaces and tabs
18:22:03 <elliott> monqy: Tabs for indentation, spaces for alignment, yes. (Although I rarely did any alignment when using hard tabs.)
18:22:34 <shachaf> elliott: are u linux toralavlardsddss
18:23:04 <elliott> shachaf: You misspelled Linyos Torovoltos. :(
18:23:06 -!- Deewiant_ has changed nick to Deewiant.
18:23:49 <zzo38> I always put the { on the same line as the declaration (if it fits), use only spaces for indent/align, and declare like this char*str1;
18:23:52 <elliott> h8rs gonna "h8', as they say.
18:24:04 <elliott> Yes, most of that sentence was half-quoted.
18:24:50 <zzo38> Maybe you hate my style of C programming but you are not required to use it you can do how you like
18:25:19 <elliott> shachaf: Have you seen ais523's C style?
18:25:37 <ais523> elliott: admittedly, that one is mostly trolling, but it's grown on me
18:26:21 <elliott> ais523: Tell shachaf about how all tabs are inherently 8 wide.
18:26:47 <shachaf> elliott: I like to indent my code with seven spaces followed by a tab.
18:26:55 <shachaf> To make sure it know what's up.
18:27:11 <elliott> I know I don't know what's up.
18:27:23 <shachaf> That's because you're not indented properly. :-(
18:27:28 <ais523> shachaf: pretty much every application that isn't a dedicated text editor, nor word processor, displays tabs as moving to a multiple of 8
18:27:40 <elliott> http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/s6isw/challenge_a_functional_freenet_xpost_from/ I like the part where the "challenge" is "please rewrite this large open-source codebase in Haskell for no good reason".
18:28:04 <elliott> shachaf: Ask ais523 why every program that lets you set how wide tabs are displayed as is inherently broken.
18:28:31 <shachaf> If ais523 want to tell me, they will.
18:28:42 <ais523> elliott: it's not setting it that's the issue, it's saving files that assume it
18:28:56 <elliott> ais523: I didn't tell you to tell me
18:29:03 <elliott> I told shachaf to ask you to tell him.
18:29:52 <shachaf> For compactness, I use U+1E2A41 ONE-SPACE INDENTATION
18:30:01 <shachaf> OR U+1E2A42 TWO-SPACE INDENTATION
18:30:09 <shachaf> Or U+1E2A43 THREE-SPACE INDENTATION
18:30:14 <shachaf> Or U+1E2A44 FOUR-SPACE INDENTATION
18:30:19 <shachaf> Or U+1E2A45 FIVE-SPACE INDENTATION
18:30:26 <shachaf> Or U+1E2A46 SIX-SPACE INDENTATION
18:30:31 <shachaf> Or U+1E2A47 SEVEN-SPACE INDENTATION
18:30:37 <shachaf> Or U+1E2A48 EIGHT-SPACE INDENTATION
18:30:40 <elliott> http://www.colorhexa.com/1e2a45 What a nice colour.
18:30:42 <shachaf> Or U+1E2A49 NINE-SPACE INDENTATION
18:30:52 <shachaf> Or U+1E2A4A A-SPACE INDENTATION
18:30:56 <shachaf> Or U+1E2A4B B-SPACE INDENTATION
18:30:59 <shachaf> Or U+1E2A4C C-SPACE INDENTATION
18:31:05 <shachaf> Or U+1E2A4D D-SPACE INDENTATION
18:31:10 <shachaf> Or U+1E2A4E E-SPACE INDENTATION
18:31:15 <shachaf> Or U+1E2A4F FIFTEEN-SPACE INDENTATION
18:31:22 <shachaf> Or U+1E2A50 FIFTY-SPACE INDENTATION
18:31:31 <shachaf> Or U+1E2A51 0x51-SPACE INDENTATION
18:31:41 <shachaf> Or U+1E2A52 OUTER-SPACE INDENTATION
18:31:41 <elliott> I think shachaf forgot how to count.
18:31:50 <monqy> hey, counting is hard!
18:31:51 <elliott> Surely outer-space indentation should be A51?
18:31:53 <monqy> I sure can't do it
18:31:54 <shachaf> Or U+1E2A53 HI-SPACE INDENTATION
18:32:03 <ais523> A, B, C, D, E, FIFTEEN is perfectly good counting
18:32:07 <shachaf> Or U+1E2A54 ZERO-SPACE INDENTATION
18:32:19 <shachaf> Or U+1E2A55 FIVE-SPACE INDENTATION, REVISITED
18:32:27 <elliott> ais523: 0x4F = fifteen to 0x60 = fifty is not
18:32:31 <elliott> ais523: 0x4F = fifteen to 0x50 = fifty is not
18:32:32 <shachaf> Or U+1E2A56 DOUBLE-SPACE INDENTATION
18:33:27 <shachaf> If I could count I would count.
18:33:32 <shachaf> But I can't count so I won't count.
18:34:06 <zzo38> This is how I write a C program (it is CWEB): http://repo.or.cz/w/TeXnicard.git/blob_plain/HEAD:/texnicard.w
18:34:12 <elliott> Can we publish those new Unicode characters?
18:34:30 <shachaf> elliott: Did you know the three advantages of Haskell are:
18:35:20 <shachaf> Which makes it the ULTIMATE PARADIGM TO WRITE FREENET IN
18:35:31 <zzo38> Outer-space indentation?
18:35:50 <elliott> shachaf: You should read TeXnicard.
18:36:09 <shachaf> elliott: Honestly, though, paradigms aren't worth much.
18:36:47 <shachaf> (DO YOU GET IT, FELLOW INHABITANTS OF AMERICANIA IN THIS CHANNEL?????)
18:37:50 <elliott> ais523: Can you kick shachaf?
18:38:02 <zzo38> It is the largest C program I have written which is not yet complete; the only dependency at compile-time is a subset of LodePNG, and there are no dependencies at runtime; however, you will probably want METAFONT or some other program that creates TFM/GF fonts, if you want to use this program effectively.
18:38:20 <ais523> shachaf: try toning it down a bit :)
18:38:34 <ais523> the ribbing of elliott
18:38:42 <shachaf> Wait, when did I rib elliott?
18:39:00 <shachaf> ais523: By the way, you should kick me.
18:39:53 <elliott> Sounds like consensus to me.
18:40:32 <zzo38> (If you want to use TrueType, OpenType, Adobe Type1, etc, then you will first need to convert it into TFM/GF format before they can be used for this purpose.)
18:40:58 <shachaf> zzo38: But I want to use Adobe Type1 and I hate converting fonts.
18:41:36 <shachaf> elliott: Did you manage to golf that C++ snippet down?
18:41:48 <zzo38> shachaf: Too bad... TeXnicard only support TFM/GF. If you prefer, you can modify TeXnicard to load Adobe Type1, but this is not recommended.
18:41:55 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10156269/haskell-data-type-error I like how this question is full of lies.
18:42:10 <zzo38> shachaf: Which fonts are you trying to use anyways?
18:42:36 <zzo38> shachaf: No I mean which specific typeface
18:42:53 <shachaf> It's called "Adobe Type1".
18:43:14 <elliott> shachaf: Do you like how that question is full of lies?
18:43:15 <zzo38> shachaf: Then you can use it.
18:44:06 <shachaf> zzo38: I'm sorry. That question was full of lies. :-(
18:44:24 <shachaf> zzo38: Would you forgive me. :-(
18:44:33 <elliott> shachaf: What C++ snippet?
18:45:25 <shachaf> elliott: {for(int p=56149304;p/=2;)cout<<(p==6854?"- ":p&1?"way ":"pon ");}
18:45:44 <lambdabot> forall a. (Integral a) => a -> String -> String
18:46:01 <zzo38> It is still preferable to use native TFM/GF fonts since they will use a different units of measurement. TrueType, OpenType, etc uses 1/7200 inch measurements, while TFM/GF uses 1/4736286.72 inch measurements.
18:46:03 <elliott> > comparing length "0x358c538" "56149304"
18:46:20 <elliott> > comparing length "puts" "cout<<"
18:46:28 <elliott> {for(int p=56149304;p/=2;)puts(p==6854?"- ":p&1?"way ":"pon ");}
18:46:32 <elliott> Oh, that outputs a newline.
18:46:36 <elliott> > comparing length "printf" "cout<<"
18:46:47 <elliott> > comparing length "write(0," "cout<<"
18:47:30 <elliott> > comparing length "6152*9127" "56149304"
18:47:55 <zzo38> The 1/4736286.72 inch measurements have a better potential of saving paper, when printing books and so on.
18:48:02 <elliott> > 2**(ceiling (logBase 2 56149304))
18:48:03 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `a' in the constraints:
18:48:07 <elliott> > 2^(ceiling (logBase 2 56149304))
18:48:13 <elliott> > 2^(ceiling (logBase 2 56149304 + 1))
18:48:19 <zzo38> Because they use traditional points instead of DTP points.
18:48:27 <elliott> > ceiling (logBase 2 56149304 + 1)
18:48:30 <elliott> > ceiling (logBase 2 56149304)
18:48:53 <elliott> *sigh*. (I was hoping for 1<<26-x or something.)
18:49:16 <elliott> shachaf: Wait, p==6854 is !(p-6854).
18:49:17 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
18:49:18 <elliott> So just flip the conditional.
18:52:41 <shachaf> elliott: ~1<<26-x would only work if the output was very regular.
18:52:54 <shachaf> Because the number is just a base-2 encoding of the output.
18:53:13 <shachaf> By "regular" I don't mean "regular", I mean "having a lot of one string or the other in a row".
18:53:26 <elliott> !cxx for(int p=56149304;p/=2;)cout<<(p==6854?"- ":p&1?"way ":"pon ");
18:53:37 <EgoBot> pon pon way way way pon pon way pon way pon pon - way way pon pon pon way way pon way pon way way
18:53:55 <shachaf> !cxx {for(int p=56149304;p/=2;)cout<<(p-6854?p&1?"way ":"pon ":"- ");}
18:54:01 <EgoBot> pon pon way way way pon pon way pon way pon pon - way way pon pon pon way way pon way pon way way
18:54:46 <elliott> !oeis 0,0,1,1,1,0,0,1,0,1,0,0,1,1,0,0,0,1,1,0,1,0,1,1
18:55:06 <elliott> @oeis 0,0,1,1,1,0,0,1,0,1,0,0,1,1,0,0,0,1,1,0,1,0,1,1
18:55:14 <shachaf> elliott: Now I want to make an IRC bot/website/whatever for team code golf.
18:55:25 <elliott> shachaf: That's called #anagol.
18:55:53 <elliott> (It's the channel for http://golf.shinh.org/.)
18:56:04 <shachaf> I mean a thing where N teams get a "challenge" and a time limit, and each team works together to golf it.
18:56:31 <shachaf> You could make in interesting in all sorts of ways.
18:56:33 <lambdabot> let(!)=div;f n=1:n:1:f(n+2);w@(x:y)%[a,b,c,d]|t<-a!c,c+d>1,t==b!d=t:w%[10*(a-c*t),10*(b-d*t),c,d]|0<1=y%[x*a+b,a,x*c+d,c]in(2:f 2)%[1,0,0,1]>>=show
18:56:40 <elliott> Come on, there has to be some magical sequence behind that.
18:57:52 <shachaf> elliott: After I was shown where the sequence comes from, I decided I don't want to know.
18:58:49 <elliott> !oeis 2,3,2,1,1,1,2,2,3,2,1,1,1,2
18:58:52 <elliott> @oeis 2,3,2,1,1,1,2,2,3,2,1,1,1,2
18:59:16 <shachaf> elliott: Almost all strings of bits aren't OEIS sequences.
18:59:17 <Mathnerd314> is there a string concatenation operator like + ?
18:59:48 <shachaf> elliott: And even if you find a sequence, the effort of decoding it will take more than N characters.
18:59:49 <lambdabot> forall m. (Monoid m) => m -> m -> m
19:00:08 <shachaf> Mathnerd314: + works, for std::trings.
19:00:39 <elliott> Maybe I should just gzip the output.
19:01:14 <shachaf> elliott: I hear that that's often the best way to win these. :-(
19:01:36 <elliott> Well, C++ doesn't have a gzip decoder in the standard library.
19:01:40 <elliott> So it would be quite a feat.
19:01:58 <shachaf> Which makes coming up with specifications tricky.
19:02:57 <shachaf> elliott: Anyway, you should definitely make that website/IRC bot/whatever.
19:04:43 <elliott> "Perhaps you'd better paste the exact code you use that gives an error together with the exact error you got, rather than the correct code and the error for some invisible code we can't see." Bruuuuuuuuuun
19:14:05 <shachaf> zzo38: What is better: TeXnicard or MSE?
19:14:38 <zzo38> shachaf: MSE is Magic Set Editor. I think TeXnicard is better even though it is not yet complete. Some other people also say so simply due to MSE being pretty bad.
19:15:03 <elliott> <haskkitten> so basically when Icant sum something I can use on
19:16:47 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Language_list&oldid=8
19:16:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Language_list&oldid=8
19:19:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's your favourite language!
19:19:16 <elliott> @tell oerjan Oh, "grm" means "grammar"! I assumed you were just mumbling-grunting at all the people who wrote bad.
19:19:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: *brainfuck
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19:24:32 <elliott> heads up: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Pict
19:25:17 <elliott> <mauke> dysoco: x+x isn't x,
19:25:17 <elliott> <mauke> dysoco: it's twice as big as x
19:25:26 <elliott> <mcstar> i wonder if it would be hard to write a compiler for lisp in haskell, that could translate all of maxima, into haskell code, and have a full featured CAS in haskell...
19:25:55 <shachaf> elliott: Did you see the exciting adventures of yesterday?
19:25:58 <ais523> elliott: oh, I went to KFC yesterday
19:26:08 <ais523> and my opinion is: it's mostly very bland, and when it isn't you wish it was
19:26:09 <shachaf> Parallelism and I were having a char about parallelism and concurrency.
19:26:19 <ais523> I think I probably won't go there again
19:29:54 <shachaf> «hi,im 64 bit "char" :'(» - eliot
19:30:12 <elliott> shachaf: Anyway, link me up, man.
19:30:26 <shachaf> You're better off not reading them.
19:31:25 <elliott> shachaf: I totally want logs.
19:32:08 <shachaf> «i;ll cut dwon trees :'( - elliott» -- eliot
19:32:22 <elliott> ais523: You should kick shachaf.
19:32:45 <shachaf> ais523: Please, ais523, kick me!
19:33:08 <shachaf> 12:31 < zhulikas> how can I force evaluation of something?
19:33:10 <shachaf> 12:32 < mcstar> $!, !, seq, deepseq?
19:34:17 <shachaf> 12:34 < reinoud> what does it mean with: Use `+RTS -Ksize -RTS' to increase it.
19:34:20 <elliott> ais523: You should totally kick shachaf!
19:34:22 <shachaf> elliott: Why am I even in there?
19:34:24 <shachaf> 12:34 < rasfar> i'm in type constraint hell, can anyone help?!...
19:34:34 <qfr> +RTS? Isn't that some serial modem command stuff?
19:34:38 <qfr> No, wait, that was +AT0?
19:34:45 <elliott> 12:34 < reinoud> what does it mean with: Use `+RTS -Ksize -RTS' to increase it.
19:34:45 <elliott> <mcstar> reinoud: you must compile with -rtsopts
19:34:58 <qfr> Ohhh, that's GHC stuff
19:35:18 <qfr> shachaf too funny, just yesterday I discovered an interesting black metal band from Canada going by that name!
19:35:18 <shachaf> There should be a GNU Haskell Compiler and it should be called gch.
19:35:40 <elliott> I thought you had not swapped.
19:35:43 <elliott> So I swapped them to clash the acronym.
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19:36:30 <shachaf> «shahcahef foiled myy jkoe :'( - eliot hird kick him - eliottt» - elliott
19:37:11 <shachaf> elliott: As they say in Hebrew, "ata hafachta veani hafachti uvechol zot ze nish'ar hafuch"
19:37:47 <elliott> ais523: I don't know what shachaf just said, but you should probably kick him for it.
19:38:38 <shachaf> elliott: (It means: "you inverted and I inverted and nevertheless it remained inverted".)
19:38:42 -!- ais523 has left ("<fungot> fizzie: it makes demons fly out of my window, washing the windows api").
19:39:26 <elliott> Now shachaf kicked ais523. :(
19:39:32 <qfr> As they say in Arabic, "ana la kaafir al yahudi wa 'ashadu muhammad al mahdi sharaqa"
19:39:44 <qfr> He doesn't wish to be associated with this channel
19:39:51 <qfr> Can you blame him? Can you?
19:40:20 <shachaf> «i can blame him :'( - eliot - eliot - eliot» - eliot
19:40:41 <shachaf> elliott: Does this channel have any ops other than oerjan and ais523?
19:41:50 <qfr> Hah, finally I know who the hidden ops are!
19:42:04 <qfr> No, that's "half ops"
19:42:19 <shachaf> elliott: Do they call cops "cops" in UKania?
19:51:18 <elliott> shachaf: Anyway, you should kick yourself.
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19:53:35 <shachaf> hi KingOfKarlsruhe, monqy, monqy
19:54:48 <monqy> what is it with you and saying hi to me
19:55:44 <qfr> [21:43:37] <KingOfKarlsruhe> 896 users in haskell O_O
19:55:51 <qfr> 896 people who talk about Haskell
19:55:57 <qfr> About 8 of them actually code in Haskell
19:56:09 <monqy> haha it's funny because
19:57:35 <qfr> I fail to see how it's funny, it strikes me as rather alarming
19:58:02 <monqy> qfr: you remind me of itidus21
19:58:18 <qfr> What are they like?
19:58:27 <monqy> rather, you just reminded me of itidus21 right now. I don't know what you're like at other times
19:58:34 <monqy> itidus21 is itidus21
19:58:41 <HackEgo> itidus21 just made some instant coffee.
19:58:48 <qfr> I don't drink coffee
19:58:49 <HackEgo> Failed to clone the environment!
19:58:52 <qfr> I drink tea only
19:59:34 <qfr> No, Indian spice tea with cow milk
19:59:41 <elliott> the joke is : " people don't use haskell"
19:59:54 <monqy> my insides are hurting
19:59:56 <monqy> from all this laughter
20:00:00 <elliott> that's the crotch scorpion
20:00:11 <monqy> i just vomited from laughter
20:00:23 -!- Sleeptalik has changed nick to Tiktalik.
20:00:24 <shachaf> I once vomited from laughter.
20:00:34 <olsner> elliott: haskell users are not people?
20:01:16 <elliott> monqy: don't worry the scorpions like the vomit
20:02:31 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:02:48 <shachaf> oerjan: elliott would like you to kick me.
20:02:53 <shachaf> I, too, would like you to kick me.
20:03:07 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
20:03:12 <lambdabot> elliott said 43m 55s ago: Oh, "grm" means "grammar"! I assumed you were just mumbling-grunting at all the people who wrote bad.
20:03:29 <KingOfKarlsruhe> elliott: haha i've answered a question in #haskell KingOfKarlsruhe += 1
20:03:57 <oerjan> elliott: no, that would be "grmbl"
20:04:53 * oerjan assumes kmc has been dronk recently
20:04:56 <elliott> oerjan: well "grm" is shorter
20:05:08 <elliott> no, that wonderful topic arose from a fine hour-long discussion with someone who likes php
20:05:17 <elliott> they wrote an aim hecker in php, you see
20:05:32 <elliott> of course kmc is no longer with us. he awoke to find his aim thoroughly hecked.
20:06:18 <shachaf> elliott: Did you know .tm will only accept 10-year registrations?
20:06:24 <shachaf> Also, it costs >$100/year.
20:06:26 <oerjan> come to think of it, probably a synonym for crocker
20:08:05 <HackEgo> 832) <kmc> aim hecker (n): when ur dronk and u pee so bad all over the toilet that ppl make fun of u <kmc> (corruption of "aim heckler")
20:08:06 <elliott> maybe that will help you???
20:10:52 <olsner> no, it doesn't help me
20:12:00 <elliott> shachaf: "The minimum registration period is 10 years and the retail cost is US$1000 for the 10 year period. As we prefer you to use the services of a .TM accredited Registrars, please note that most of them offer discount off our retail price"
20:12:04 <elliott> That's just the price if you get it directly.
20:12:13 <elliott> See http://nic.tm/registrars.html.
20:13:14 <shachaf> elliott: OH, WELL, ONE REGISTRAR CHARGED *MORE* THAN $1000
20:14:23 <oerjan> 18:18:29: <elliott> I'm scared.
20:14:37 <oerjan> i'd assume he copied my pages...
20:15:13 <elliott> oerjan: Either that, *or* he's you from another universe, *or* he's stalking you and planning to one day kill you and wear your skin and live your life, *or* ...
20:15:35 <elliott> Also, this implies oerjan skipped all that fun PHP talk. :(
20:16:22 <oerjan> also, http://esolangs.org/wiki/User_talk:PLarsen
20:16:34 <oerjan> elliott: the logs were _long_ today
20:16:52 <olsner> stalking you and planning to one day kill you and wear your skin and live your life sounds like fun
20:17:46 * oerjan considers browsing through it. but thinks it may be time to eat.
20:19:38 <elliott> I like the part where this guy has been using Haskell and Miranda for 20 years and still thinks we should have a magical expression that changes its value every time you use it.
20:30:31 <lambdabot> Data.Unique newUnique :: IO Unique
20:42:53 <elliott> <rasfar> kallisti, i wonder what i should do to best benefit from your presence?
20:43:24 <monqy> did kallisti quit #esoteric
20:47:05 <shachaf> did the old monqy quit #esoteric :(
20:47:20 <shachaf> everyone liked the old monqy
20:47:40 <elliott> I like how rasfar keeps complaining about problems with their code but refuses to post it because posting part of it means they might as well post it all and if they do that people will criticise it and it's secret.
20:49:58 <monqy> shachaf: new monqy is kind of like old monqy; he just doesn't say hi
20:50:28 <shachaf> monqy: but the old monqy was hi :(
20:50:59 <shachaf> "i wish the old monqy was still here. i miss the old monqy" - shachef
20:52:23 <monqy> shachaf: are you old monqy
20:52:37 <shachaf> monqy: old monqy is contained within you
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20:55:16 <monqy> old monqy really didn't say hi all that much until quite recently, right?
20:55:51 <zzo38> Does this Haskell class have any use? class Contravariant f => Counterpoint f where { counterpoint :: x -> f (f x); };
21:04:35 <oerjan> hm reminds me of dual vector spaces
21:05:27 <oerjan> and galois connections and stuff
21:06:53 <HackEgo> The friendship monqy is an ancient Chinese mystery; ask itidus21 for details.
21:07:35 <zzo38> oerjan: I don't know what those things are, but this is one such instance of this class: instance Counterpoint (Op x) where { counterpoint x = Op (($ x) . getOp); };
21:07:54 <zzo38> (It is similar to the instance for continuations, but on a contravariant functor)
21:09:29 <oerjan> zzo38: the dual vector space version is also of that form, since that automatically becomes linear if Op contains a linear function(al)
21:11:41 <oerjan> i assume Op x y = Op { getOp :: y -> x }
21:14:05 <oerjan> Op Void would be logical negation...
21:15:23 <Sgeo> Is it my fault old monqy said hi so much?
21:15:55 <oerjan> "fault" is not the word i would use
21:17:00 <oerjan> i don't remember a previous time when monqy _didn't_ say hi, so...
21:17:49 <monqy> Sgeo: you probably contributed heavily yes
21:17:57 <monqy> Sgeo: but it was finally shachaf that ruined it
21:37:17 <elliott> oerjan: that Op is defined in contravariant, yes
21:37:31 <oerjan> `addquote <ais523> and then I spent much of the rest of the time trying to work out how to implement 3D Hashlife efficiently when at least one of the colors has free will
21:37:32 <elliott> zzo38: I thought Counterpoint might be kind of like Contramonad, on top of Contraapplicative
21:37:34 <HackEgo> 833) <ais523> and then I spent much of the rest of the time trying to work out how to implement 3D Hashlife efficiently when at least one of the colors has free will
21:37:55 <elliott> contraunit :: f Void; contrazip :: f a -> f b -> f (Either a b)
21:38:21 <elliott> oerjan: did you enjoy the PHP discussion :D
21:39:03 <oerjan> elliott: cannot say i see the point much
21:40:03 <elliott> oerjan: It sounds like your aim is hecked.
21:40:37 <oerjan> otherwise, yes that's the story of my life
21:42:36 <Sgeo> ....free will?
21:42:55 <elliott> oerjan: maybe you could try aim hecking it again to put it back?
21:45:44 <elliott> oerjan: i hear there's a nice php tool for that...
21:46:42 <kmc> you're still talking about php
21:46:45 <kmc> over 9000 hours later
21:46:52 <kmc> why are you all such angry people
21:47:57 <elliott> kmc: well my aim was hecked
21:48:04 <elliott> now i can only aim my talkings at php
21:48:06 <kmc> i spent a lot of time taking psychedelic drugs with CS students and they tend to say things like ais523's quote up there
21:48:24 <shachaf> Before or after the drugs?
21:49:53 <elliott> kmc: is anyone really ever "outside" drugs
21:50:22 <elliott> does anyone want to tell hagb4rd how to type a backtick
21:50:43 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
21:50:59 <HackEgo> Failed to clone the environment!
21:52:18 <hagb4rd> thats bad because it's exactly what i want you to do hackego
21:53:12 <Sgeo> elliott, you played through the update?
21:55:25 <HackEgo> 2011-06-16.txt:11:39:31: <ais523> Patashu: I'm just quoting the changelog
21:56:28 <hagb4rd> i guess that's not what the cs students tend to say while on psychedelic drugs :(
22:02:39 <elliott> shachaf: What is the type of a closure, man?
22:03:26 <shachaf> elliott: I look in #haskell,
22:03:34 <shachaf> "haskell" on StackOverflow, /r/haskell
22:04:32 <oerjan> !cxx for(int p=56149304;p/=2;)cout<<(p==6854?"- ":p&1?"way ":"pon ");
22:04:38 <EgoBot> pon pon way way way pon pon way pon way pon pon - way way pon pon pon way way pon way pon way way
22:04:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, why do people say strong typing is unfriendly to beginners?
22:05:04 <elliott> because it hurts them with its strength
22:05:08 <elliott> "doesnt know its own streng" - strong typ
22:05:09 <shachaf> oerjan: We shortened it from that.
22:05:10 <Phantom_Hoover> It's really not hard to understand the basic principle that numbers and strings are different.
22:05:24 <shachaf> !cxx for(int p=56149304;p/=2;)cout<<(p-6854?p&1?"way ":"pon ":"- ");
22:05:24 <Phantom_Hoover> If anything, it's less intuitive for them to be the /same/.
22:05:29 <EgoBot> pon pon way way way pon pon way pon way pon pon - way way pon pon pon way way pon way pon way way
22:05:41 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: they say it because it suits their agenda to say it
22:05:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: consider THIS:
22:06:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Well Haskell had a daughter so he probably knew how kids worked??
22:06:37 <shachaf> oops monqy doesnttnst say hi :(
22:06:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: but can he give LOVE like a python can
22:07:07 <Phantom_Hoover> (Haskell Curry's daughter dated Alonzo Church's son, can you tell that this is my FAVOURITE FACT?)
22:07:22 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, probably, how do you think he got a child in the first place
22:08:01 <elliott> @pl \xs -> map (id &&& (`count` xs)) xs
22:09:09 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 11.0/20120312181643]).
22:09:19 <monqy> &&& sections, excellent
22:10:01 <monqy> all of these not-his feel so fake
22:10:02 <shachaf> monqy: If I called you on the phone would you say hi?
22:10:10 <monqy> I'm having hi withdrawal
22:11:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Do *you* know what the type of a closure is?
22:13:47 <elliott> shachaf: The type of a closure of a is ∃s.(s→a).
22:14:49 <elliott> shachaf: I bet you didn't know that!
22:15:18 <elliott> @pl \x xs -> x : filter (/= x) xs
22:16:25 <elliott> shachaf: I BET YOU DIDN'T KNOW THAT
22:17:03 <shachaf> elliott: (a::*) -> ((s::*), s-> a)
22:17:25 <elliott> shachaf: No, the a isn't universally quantified, silly.
22:18:01 <elliott> I don't know a good name for "closure with value type a". :(
22:19:14 <elliott> (Of course, the statement "Closure a is isomorphic to a" is equivalent to the statement "this language has implicit closures".)
22:19:34 <monqy> thanks for the spelling
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22:37:53 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Do *you* know what the type of a closure is?
22:38:09 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: Hint: It's x.
22:39:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: A Haskell monad what?
22:40:03 <kmc> ahaskellmonadsayswhat
22:40:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Closure, i.e. a closure as realised by the one with the monad that I forget the name -- wait that's continuations FFS.
22:41:52 <elliott> kmc: Do YOU know what the type of a closure is???
22:43:11 <shachaf> forall a. s.t. exists a. a. a
22:43:21 <shachaf> Haskell needs a "s.t." keyword.
22:43:55 <elliott> oerjan: Specifically the question is "what is the type of a closure with value type 'a'".
22:45:08 <zzo38> I was off because I was playing Dungeons&Dragons game after I typed the message about Counterpoint
22:45:22 <elliott> oerjan: IT'S ACTUALLY ∃s.(s,s→a) HTH.
22:45:33 <shachaf> elliott: THAT MAKES MORE SENSE
22:45:49 <zzo38> shachaf: It looks similar to the Store comonad type
22:46:42 <zzo38> The store comonad is \s a -> (s, s -> a)
22:47:21 <elliott> Okay, a closure is ∃s.(Store s a).
22:47:40 <elliott> oerjan: Did you know that???
22:47:45 <elliott> I bet you didn't know a closure had either of those types.
22:49:38 <zzo38> I don't know what a closure is
22:50:55 <shachaf> zzo38: A closure is ∃s.(Store s a).
22:51:35 <zzo38> O, that is what it is.
22:53:13 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closure_(computer_science)
22:53:23 <elliott> It says it has to be a function.
22:55:43 <oerjan> ooh closures are comonads?
22:56:16 <oerjan> i suppose that makes sense
22:57:27 <oerjan> in fact that works with a _general_ comonad, i think
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22:59:11 <shachaf> General Comonad, commander of the colonel.
22:59:22 <elliott> <oerjan> ooh closures are comonads?
22:59:27 <elliott> oerjan: hm extract is obvious but what is duplicate doing...
23:00:45 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
23:01:21 <elliott> I guess duplicate isn't really doing much interesting :)
23:04:12 <zzo38> Do you know what is the criteria needed for callCC with Codensity? I know that (Codensity (Const r)) is like (Cont r) so that can callCC (Peirce's law) but is there a more general criteria?
23:05:15 <elliott> oerjan: (I was wondering about the type of closures because I want a language without implicit closures)
23:05:30 <zzo38> I have noticed that: (Const x) is both Functor and Contravariant, regardless of x; if x is Monoid then (Const x) is also Applicative and Alternative
23:08:56 <Sgeo> elliott, Phantom_Hoover monqy UPDATE
23:10:38 <Sgeo> I'm pretty sure I carefully asked if he wants to be on the list
23:10:47 <Sgeo> He said no matter how much he mocks, he does. Or was that you?
23:16:12 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: Do you know what the Isle of Man is?
23:16:42 <shachaf> Hint: That area is so complicated, even elliott doesn't understand it.
23:17:09 <elliott> Nuh-uh! It's a "a self-governing Crown Dependency of the United Kingdom".
23:17:10 <shachaf> But what is it an island *of*?
23:17:29 <elliott> The best part is the part where the Crown Dependencies have nothing to do with the UK.
23:18:25 <Phantom_Hoover> It's effectively a self-governing bit of the UK; people who say otherwise are boring and you should give them a wide berth at parties.
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23:18:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It is not part of the uK!
23:18:40 <elliott> "The Crown Dependencies are British possessions of the Crown, as opposed to overseas territories of the United Kingdom."
23:18:53 <elliott> "Being independently administered jurisdictions, none forms part of the United Kingdom or of the European Union."
23:18:57 <elliott> The royals just own it, or something.
23:18:57 <olsner> so basically it's an island in england?
23:19:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Well now we know who not to talk to at the next #esoteric meetup.
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23:19:15 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, it's got no particular connection to /England/.
23:19:16 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: lol wait, the royal family fucking OWNS countries?
23:19:17 <olsner> (i.e. just like ireland)
23:19:26 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Well, "the Crown" does.
23:19:35 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I think "the Crown" means "symbolically, the royals".
23:19:43 <elliott> "But actually just 'the UK, sort of, except not really'."
23:20:05 <elliott> "it is no longer the private property of the reigning monarch and cannot be sold by him/her"
23:20:16 <Phantom_Hoover> It means "de jure, the monarch, de facto, the government".
23:20:17 <elliott> "The Crown is a corporation sole that in the Commonwealth realms and any provincial or state sub-divisions thereof represents the legal embodiment of governance, whether executive, legislative, or judicial."
23:20:31 <elliott> Does this mean our head of state is technically a corporation?
23:21:05 <shachaf> elliott: Isn't London also a corporation?
23:21:15 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: You see how complicated the UK is???
23:21:20 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: *).
23:21:31 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: I feel like I'm scraping a snow cone off the tip of an iceberg.
23:21:34 <Phantom_Hoover> So yeah, the Crown Estate includes over half the UK's beaches, nearly all the seabed and all of our oil.
23:21:38 <elliott> And the City of London isn't the city known as London.
23:21:41 <elliott> It's a tiny part of that city.
23:22:00 <Phantom_Hoover> ...All of the wild mussels and oysters in Scotland, for some reason.
23:22:01 <RocketJSquirrel> http://www.focalprice.com/CE0031W/HYUNDAI_A7_7_Capacitive_Android_40_Tablet_with_3G_WiFi_White.html <-- also, this device is way better than logic dictates it should be.
23:22:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Is the UK a corporation too?
23:22:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, if you go bankrupt or dissolve a company all property goes the the Crown.
23:23:12 <shachaf> can u be the crocwnwnn????
23:24:11 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, the Archbishop of Canterbury is a corporation too.
23:24:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: OK, so shachaf has so far been able to reduce cocky-about-the-structure-of-the-UK people into confusion twice.
23:24:56 <Phantom_Hoover> I think the sticking point here is that 'corporation' is way broader than the usual meaning; the usual meaning is just by far the most often used.
23:24:56 <elliott> I think we need to lock him up.
23:25:12 <oerjan> in the us, corporations are persons. in the uk, persons are corporations.
23:25:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Hey, I've always known that I have no idea how the Crown works.
23:25:25 <shachaf> THE UK = SOVIET RUSSIA AM I RIGHT
23:25:31 <elliott> WHAT DOES VERONICA: OF THE CHAPMAN FAMILY THINK ABOUT ALL THIS
23:25:44 <elliott> Freecorporation on the land
23:26:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's like the UK is some massive codebase that's been ported from assembly to FORTRAN to COBOL and now nobody knows how it actually works.
23:26:53 <elliott> (Here, assembly represents feudalism)
23:27:00 <ion> Elliotts are people, too.
23:27:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Basically, corporations sole are offices (*not* people) which are assigned to a single person but are seperate from them.
23:27:48 <ion> That makes TeX = UK.
23:27:54 <Phantom_Hoover> So Rowan Williams is the Archbishop of Canterbury, but the Archbishop of Canterbury is not Robin Williams-- wait how is that less confusing.
23:29:05 <shachaf> elliott: Is there a word that means: "crown + uk + british isles + great britain + ireland + northern ireland + republic of ireland + scotland + england + commonwealth + overseas territories + crown dependencies + ..."?
23:29:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Are you *sure* Robin Williams isn't the Archbishop of Canterbury?
23:29:27 <elliott> "Robin McLaurin Williams[2][3] (born July 21, 1951)[4] is an American actor and comedian, and also the Archbishop of Canterbury." -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Williams
23:29:34 <shachaf> olsner: oh ok thnx olsnerr
23:29:40 <shachaf> elliott: oh ok thnx olsnerr
23:29:49 <olsner> shachaf: this is my area of expertise you know
23:30:37 <elliott> I want \n to be my middle name.
23:30:39 <oerjan> rowan atkinson williams
23:30:55 <shachaf> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rowan_Williams_-001.jpg
23:31:06 <shachaf> Looks like a successful programming language designer.
23:31:44 <lambdabot> not an expression: `let there = light#'
23:31:47 <lambdabot> not an expression: `let there = light'
23:31:51 <ion> I want «' OR 0 = 0 OR 'foo' = '» to be my middle name.
23:32:40 <elliott> Wait, why did nobody tell me the Archbishop of Canterbury looked that awesome?
23:32:57 <ion> Sorry, i thought i did.
23:33:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: quick is he a raging homophobe or anything I want to like him.
23:33:32 <Phantom_Hoover> He's in charge of the CoE, so I doubt he has any terribly strong opinions on anything.
23:33:40 <shachaf> elliott: He is a raging homophone for Robin Williams.
23:34:11 <shachaf> (COME ON THAT DESERVED A GROAN)
23:34:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It looks like the nastiest thing he's said is [[Though acknowledging that he was simplifying the Church's position, Williams said in September 2010 "There's no problem about a gay person who's a bishop. It's about the fact that there are traditionally, historically, standards that the clergy are expected to observe." Asked what was wrong with a homosexual bishop having a partner, he said: "I think because the scriptural and tradit
23:34:49 <elliott> ional approach to this doesn't give much ground for being positive about it."[55]]]
23:34:53 <elliott> OK I will take a compromise position.
23:35:01 <elliott> I support Rowan Williams for Pope.
23:35:13 <elliott> I mean, he'd be a better Pope than whoever's Pope now, right?
23:35:25 <shachaf> elliott: COME ON, ONE LITTLE GROAN
23:35:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Not having been in the Hitler Youth is often considered a political advantage, yes.
23:36:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Oh man, I forgot the Pope was!
23:36:08 * ion groans shachaf.
23:36:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Can we hang him or something?
23:36:43 <elliott> Stop looking at me like that, you gotta kill religious leaders once in a while. :(
23:36:48 <shachaf> elliott: Apparently Rowan Williams is Primate of All England.
23:37:06 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: hey the hitler youth _was_ mandatory
23:37:07 <elliott> `addquote <shachaf> elliott: Apparently Rowan Williams is Primate of All England. <shachaf> CHECKMATE CREATIONISTS
23:37:18 <HackEgo> 834) <shachaf> elliott: Apparently Rowan Williams is Primate of All England. <shachaf> CHECKMATE CREATIONISTS
23:37:19 <Phantom_Hoover> I was about to say what oerjan did, but he cut ahead of me.
23:37:29 <elliott> Isn't there pretty strong evidence he totally enjoyed it?
23:37:35 <elliott> I mean, I forgot, but then Phantom_Hoover jogged my memory.
23:37:52 <Phantom_Hoover> WASN'T NORWAY NAZI FOR A WHILE MAYBE OERJAN WAS A HITLER YOUTH
23:38:09 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I think it was kind of like evil Scouts, it was probably pretty fun?
23:38:09 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: there is a bit of problem with the timing there.
23:38:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: PH............ they were Nazis..................
23:38:33 <shachaf> oerjan: Weren't you born in 1924?
23:38:51 <oerjan> shachaf: shockingly, no
23:39:09 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, you're old, people who were alive in WWII are old, Q.E.D.
23:42:44 <oerjan> lambdabot: i'd like you more if you stopped listening to that evil elliott guy
23:44:06 <oerjan> needs some cheering up
23:44:10 <fungot> \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/
23:44:10 <myndzi> | | | `\o/´ | | | `\o/´ | | |
23:44:10 <myndzi> |\ /| |\ | |\ |\ /< | >\ /^\ /'\
23:44:42 <olsner> looks like someone is abusing his lambdabot privileges
23:45:03 <elliott> lambdabot: How do you feel about olsner calling your feeling abusive?
23:45:43 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Why doesn't HackEgo ever show emotion?
23:49:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, hey, the UK doesn't actually *have* many conventional corporations.
23:53:51 <elliott> oerjan: so, anyway, now I don't hate existentials as much as I used to!
23:54:41 <elliott> they're only useless in haskell because it has implicit closures
23:56:47 <elliott> oerjan: I'M GLAD YOU'RE AS HAPPY AS I AM ABOUT THIS DISCOVER