00:02:16 <shachaf> kmc: This code had a macro of the form special_debug_printf(("%s", args)). I didn't notice the extra () and #defined special_debug_printf printf. It took me a little while to figure out what was going on. Maybe you can use that for your underhanded code thing!
00:02:21 * shachaf is mostly just annoyed at this code.
00:04:29 <elliott> shachaf: that's for c89 compat
00:06:13 <lambdabot> Warrigal says: Hey, the module loaded. I didn't expect that.
00:06:29 <tswett> That... was probably funny in context?
00:06:32 <lambdabot> jcreigh says: <chessguy> i mean if someone says factorial should be of type String -> [(Float, Bool)], you should just tell them they're nuts <jcreigh> > let fac n = map (\x -> (x, True)) $ scanl (*
00:06:32 <lambdabot> ) 1 [1..(read n)] in fac "5" :: [(Float, Bool)]
00:07:11 <tswett> @quote my factorial function
00:07:11 <lambdabot> No quotes for this person. My mind is going. I can feel it.
00:17:32 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:23:46 <elliott> Who here is good at naming git branches? :(
00:24:23 <shachaf> I like to name them ee1de02f4cc67f0d5d6a2ed0b3b03c9e6fa5c5a7
00:24:33 <shachaf> Or 2ee1eb0e876e64adf0c35a05ac63c785cfb23cdc
00:32:10 -!- nortti_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:33:27 <zzo38> I have only ever posted updates of files (and new files) to git, not branches
01:04:05 <zzo38> atehwa: Well, you can put the idea about videos on the esolang wiki list of ideas if you want to
01:04:37 <atehwa> oh, I didn't know such a list existed
01:04:52 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/List_of_ideas
01:05:04 <zzo38> shachaf: I have looked at underhanded C codes and easily find the errors in most cases
01:05:05 <atehwa> it sounds like one, right from the topic :)
01:06:06 <zzo38> elliott: It used to be even more mess; it is better now. And still, I think it is good the way it is; ideas with a lot more completion can go to separate pages which can be written better if you have that
01:06:18 <elliott> It is slightly less of a mess.
01:06:29 <elliott> But then it got more messy again.
01:07:27 * ion reads http://esolangs.org/wiki/List_of_ideas and patents them all!
01:09:04 <kmc> zzo38: where did you find these codes
01:09:23 <ion> Method and system for implementing a compiler for a programming language based on graphics represented in the American Standard Code for Information Interchange
01:12:14 <zzo38> In programs that take a random stream of bits to generate random integers within a range, and if the range is not a power of two, would you deal with the uniformness of the generator?
01:13:52 <shachaf> I may not like the situation with "web applications" these days.
01:14:12 <shachaf> But I'm glad we're not in the days of CGI scripts written in C anymore.
01:14:27 <elliott> shachaf: Are you writing a CGI script in C?
01:14:39 <shachaf> elliott: No, I'm reading a CGI script written in C.
01:14:40 <zzo38> shachaf: I don't like either. But even recently I have written a CGI script in C.
01:14:43 <shachaf> I guess it's not a "script".
01:16:43 <zzo38> TeXnicard uses the following algorithm for random number generator: unsigned int r=max_uint-(max_uint%limit); for(;;) { @<Make the next number |rng_w| by Xorshift algorithm@>; @<Check the range, try again if out of range, else |return|@>; }
01:18:52 <madbrr> what sort of language can you make out of only 2 symbols
01:19:17 <zzo38> There is also Jot, which uses 0 and 1 and then eventually ends
01:19:28 <madbrr> and is crazy functionnal stuff? :D
01:20:31 <madbrr> who composes music in here
01:20:46 <zzo38> But Gregor probably does more
01:21:12 -!- TheJimmyJames has joined.
01:21:15 <madbrr> yeah I think gregor does sheet music, especially piano
01:21:26 <HackEgo> TheJimmyJames: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
01:21:42 <madbrr> zzo: what sort of music do you do?
01:21:46 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:22:45 <zzo38> madbrr: I do four-part chorale on paper, I also do monophonic music on QBASIC using PLAY command, and some using Bohlen-Pierce as well using PlayBP which is a subroutine I made up for that purpose
01:23:38 <madbrr> never tried bohlen-pierce
01:24:01 <zzo38> I have experimented with other temperaments as well
01:24:56 <zzo38> I have also written some polyphonic music using PPMCK
01:25:31 <madbrr> as of yet the most interesting I've found was using modified scale for some melodic instument, over equal temperament chords
01:26:01 <madbrr> especially the arabic-ish kind of scale where you detune stuff like 3rds and 6ths more towards "neutral" intervals
01:26:30 <madbrr> ppmck is the one for making NES music right?
01:26:56 <madbrr> yeah I've mostly used converters for my nes stuff
01:27:10 <zzo38> I have also made some changes to PPMCK, so that a subroutine call followed by return from subroutine is just replaced by a jump instruction instead
01:27:44 <madbrr> the s3m2nsf / it2nsf / supernsf family
01:30:51 -!- augur has joined.
01:31:48 <madbrr> supernsf is particularly ridiculous
01:31:54 <madbrr> lets you cheat way too much :D
01:31:59 <madbrr> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94ZEczIYbUQ <- supernsf
01:33:35 <madbrr> notice anything about the dpcm? :D
01:34:27 <zzo38> Do you mean it converts WAV to DPCM and plays that as the music?
01:35:34 <madbrr> well, you could do that but it's cooler even
01:35:56 <madbrr> the song fits in like 200k
01:36:57 <zzo38> Have you ever sent anything to Famicompo or Famicompo Mini?
01:37:14 <madbrr> yes the song I linked to was in famicompo mini
01:37:34 <zzo38> What volume and number? I have the entire Famicompo Mini on my computer so I can easily find it
01:38:26 <zzo38> I mean, what volume number, section (cover or original), and entry number?
01:42:47 <madbrr> can't be one huge dpcm sample for the whole tune, would be much larger than 200k
01:42:57 <zzo38> Yes I can see what is done now
01:43:36 <madbrr> it's a software mixer and reampler for the NES
01:44:20 <zzo38> Does that mean you cannot include the music in a game?
01:44:30 <madbrr> yeah you couldn't put that in a gaime
01:45:25 <madbrr> does nothing else than resample 2~4 channels of sound, apply volume, mix, write to the DPCM port to set position
01:45:50 <madbrr> and from time to time interpret a music data command (to change the sample freq or volume or the NES channels)
01:45:52 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:48:12 <madbrr> the song has like one sample for each word ("smoke" "wee-" "-eed" "ev-" "-ery" "day"), so all the silly echoes and harmonizations are all sequenced :D
01:49:48 <kmc> hey hey smoke weed everyday
01:51:09 <zzo38> O, that's what they are saying. I found the speech difficult to understand at first
01:51:43 <madbrr> yeah it's a recent silly meme on youtube
01:52:27 <madbrr> use samples from that one time snoop dogg says "smoke weed everyday" without any instrumental backing and fit that over random VGM :D
01:53:18 <kmc> "Only thing is... wouldn't that be against the Big Beat Manifesto?"
01:53:19 <kmc> "Have you read the Big Beat Manifesto lately? The Big Beat Manifesto goes, 'Big beats are the best, get high all the time.'"
01:59:47 <madbrr> also did fcm8 original 40, fcm7 original 1 & 71, fcm6 original 19 cover 37 & 42, fcm5 original 58 cover 8, fcm classical original 22
02:02:39 <zzo38> I do like fcm8 original 40 and fcm7 original 1, I don't like fcm8 cover 63 much though.
02:03:08 <kmc> that's pretty dumb
02:03:24 <kmc> i can see the humor of adding "smoke weed every day" to a vgm track
02:03:38 <kmc> but adding a poorly autotuned sample on every note?
02:03:48 <kmc> that just gets annoying fast
02:04:37 <zzo38> kmc: Do you have the entire Famicompo Mini on your computer?
02:04:53 <madbrr> anyways it's mostly for the meme value (and because the moon is a nice song)
02:10:24 <kmc> "for the meme value" is a completely bankrupt rationale
02:10:56 <kmc> "why do you keep giving people herpes?" "for the herpes value!"
02:11:46 <ion> Why do you keep giving people herps? For the derps value!
02:13:41 <kmc> herps derps
02:14:54 <shachaf> kmc: If everyone had herpes, you wouldn't have to worry about giving/getting herpes anymore!
02:14:59 <shachaf> Herpes: The Great Equalizer.
02:17:16 <Gregor> If everyone was dead, you wouldn't have to worry about killing/being killed anymore!
02:17:21 <Gregor> Death: The Great Equalizer.
02:26:29 <zzo38> If the Earth didn't exist, you wouldn't have to worry about it orbiting the Sun anymore!
02:28:13 <Gregor> Spontaneous planetary cessation: The Great Equalizer.
02:32:54 <zzo38> Can you remind me what the command is in C to access the current UNIX timestamp?
02:34:08 <zzo38> I am going to add a support for a timer to Internet Quiz Engine.
02:34:54 <pikhq_> zzo38: time_t time(time_t *t);
02:35:42 <kmc> what's the point of time(2)'s pointer argument?
02:36:12 <pikhq_> The *semantics* are that, if t is non-NULL, it'll store its return value in there, too.
02:36:19 <pikhq_> Why you would want this is beyond me.
02:36:45 <zzo38> Especially since C allows assignments inside of other expressions
02:39:48 <shachaf> Hmm, does strace replace the VDSO with its a little tracing function or something?
02:42:36 <kmc> don't believe so
02:42:43 <kmc> i don't think you see gettimeofday(2) in strace
02:43:03 <kmc> you might see it in ltrace assuming it's being called through libc
02:43:14 -!- MDude has joined.
02:44:46 <shachaf> elliott: I know it uses ptrace. That means that it only sees actual system calls that go to the kernel.
02:44:55 -!- MSleep has joined.
02:44:57 <kmc> that's right
02:45:06 <shachaf> I do see time(NULL) calls in strace.
02:45:13 <shachaf> But maybe that's not done through gettimeofday(2).
02:45:32 <kmc> i know the VDSO handles gettimeofday and clock_gettime but I don't know about time
02:45:38 <zzo38> madbrr: All of the files you mentioned are very good; the only one you did that I don't like much is fcm8 cover 63
02:45:45 <kmc> on my amd64 system I don't see gettimeofday calls unless I build a static binary
02:46:29 <kmc> static binaries don't use vsyscalls but I think on i386 they still use the VDSO for regular syscalls
02:46:47 * shachaf wonders why the VDSO even exists.
02:46:57 <kmc> on i386 you get an ELF auxv entry for the start of the VDSO ELF in memory, and another auxv entry for the syscall entry point
02:46:59 <shachaf> I mean, as opposed to doing it in libc.
02:47:02 <kmc> on amd64 you get only the first of those
02:47:07 <shachaf> Is it just so the kernel can generate the code once at boot?
02:48:27 <MSleep> Oh no, other MDude isn't timing out.
02:48:40 -!- MSleep has changed nick to MDuck.
02:48:46 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
02:49:23 <kmc> the userspace code immediately surrounding the call into ring 0 is basically kernel implementation details
02:49:31 <kmc> it makes sense to let that change with the kernel, not with libc
02:49:39 <MDuck> Someone else registered MDude sometime before I showed up, I was just using the nick because I use it elsewhere.
02:49:53 <kmc> ditto the implementation of gettimeofday etc, which read kernel data structures
02:49:54 <MDuck> It could be that whoever actually registered it showed up.
02:50:01 <shachaf> kmc: libc is already really closely coupled with the kernel.
02:50:18 <kmc> it's a nicer option than making the locations and layouts of those "internal" data structures part of the stable ABI
02:50:24 <kmc> shachaf: not to this degree, I think
02:50:32 <MDuck> Unless he just joined right before elliott notes that something uses ptrace.
02:51:10 <MDuck> Oh hey look he disconnected while I wasn't paying attention.
02:51:14 -!- MDuck has changed nick to MDude.
02:51:14 <zzo38> MDuck: You can check by NS INFO and WHOIS commands, some information about someone else with that nickname
02:51:41 <MDude> I'll try to remember.
02:51:47 <kmc> shachaf: the VDSO makes particular sense for SYSENTER
02:52:38 <kmc> when userspace invokes the SYSENTER instruction, the CPU jumps to kernel code in ring 0 without saving the userspace instruction pointer (or code segment)
02:52:41 <shachaf> kmc: Right, because the address has to be known.
02:52:52 <shachaf> (But then the VDSO can't be randomized anymore, can it?)
02:52:55 <kmc> which means that practically a) you should have only one SYSENTER instruction in all of userspace, and b) the kernel needs to know where it is
02:53:08 <kmc> shachaf: I was just thinking about that, but I worked it out
02:53:17 <kmc> because the kernel knows where the VDSO is mapped in each process's spacj
02:53:50 <kmc> whereas, if the SYSENTER instruction were in vanilla libc code, there would have to be an extra mechanism for telling the kernel where it is
02:54:04 <kmc> not like Linux is averse to such mechanisms (*cough* set_robust_list(2) *cough*)
02:54:15 <shachaf> No manual entry for set_robust_list
02:54:28 <kmc> http://lwn.net/Articles/172149/
02:54:28 <zzo38> Did you know that in Haskell, you can make up the Kleisli category for Set to be an instance of Category, even though Set cannot be an instance of Monad?
02:54:58 <shachaf> zzo38: No. How can you do that?
02:55:04 <kmc> shachaf: [vsyscall] is the old non-randomized VDSO-like thing
02:55:49 <zzo38> shachaf: http://sprunge.us/CDAB
02:57:45 <shachaf> You're using an existential type?
02:58:27 <kmc> shachaf: these days it contains only short sequences like "mov $0x60, %rax; syscall; ret"
02:58:57 <kmc> it's a compatibility layer only, which goes through the slow "real" syscall path
02:58:57 <zzo38> shachaf: Well, it does work.
02:59:36 <shachaf> kmc: Oh, I can use this for the debugger thing, then.
02:59:45 <kmc> ah, that's true!
02:59:46 <shachaf> It's not even randomized so it's much nicer.
02:59:54 <shachaf> I guess a process *could* still unmap it.
03:00:06 <shachaf> But it should work for any "reasonable" program.
03:00:38 <shachaf> Why is dumping [vdso]/[vsyscall] such a hassle. :-(
03:00:48 <elliott> shachaf: Where is zzo38 using an existential type there?
03:00:55 <kmc> shachaf: here's a puzzle: why can you do memcpy(buf, vsyscall, 4096); write(1, buf, 4096);
03:01:02 -!- david_werecat has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
03:01:04 <kmc> but not write(1, vsyscall, 4096);
03:01:05 <shachaf> elliott: Wait, it's not an existential type.
03:01:19 <kmc> (where char *vsyscall = (char*) 0xffffffffff600000)
03:01:23 <shachaf> kmc: I was just wondering about that earlier!
03:01:50 <kmc> do you want the answer?
03:02:54 <shachaf> The funny part is that the behavior of fwrite() changes depending on whether you printfed some text previously.
03:03:05 <shachaf> Because if you do then it copies the page into a buffer, I guess.
03:03:56 <kmc> heh, nice!
03:04:05 <kmc> i didn't think about that
03:04:11 <shachaf> That was a strange bug to track down.
03:04:24 <kmc> keep that one in mind for the devious code contest
03:04:58 <kmc> shachaf: here is my vdso dumper: https://gist.github.com/2799304
03:05:16 <kmc> (unlike vsyscall you don't need an intermediate buffer)
03:05:38 <shachaf> I parsed /proc/self/maps in C. :-(
03:05:59 <shachaf> High-level languages should have easy unsafe-memory-access primitives!
03:07:28 <kmc> that's why i love ctypes!
03:07:37 <kmc> look at my python vdso dumper
03:07:47 <kmc> unsafe memory access is pretty easy in Haskell, too
03:11:45 <shachaf> Hmm, so it's not just because it's a high address.
03:15:20 <shachaf> No, I just forgot to pass MAP_FIXED to mmap.
03:16:51 <kmc> yeah, the reason (aiui) is that the kernel checks the pointer argument to 'write' to make sure it's below the user/kernel cutoff
03:17:07 <kmc> and the generic code which does that doesn't know that userspace is allowed to read this one high-mapped page
03:17:14 <kmc> but the page tables do know that, so memcpy works fine
03:17:59 <shachaf> I just used while (ptr < end) putchar(*ptr);
03:19:15 <kmc> elliott: yeah
03:19:30 <elliott> someone should fix said generic code
03:19:39 <kmc> more generally, it's gross that the kernel has to duplicate the page table's knowledge about what userspace is allowed to read
03:19:49 <shachaf> elliott: But the performance penalty!
03:19:52 <kmc> though linux only does this at a coarse level
03:19:55 <shachaf> I mean, it's not as if it actually matters.
03:20:00 <elliott> shachaf: i don't care if it slows the system down by half
03:20:11 <kmc> if you pass a faulting userspace address to write(), that does indeed trigger a pagefault in ring 0 code
03:20:18 <elliott> kmc: does it really "have" to do that
03:20:56 <kmc> but the pagefault handler knows that faults on certain kernel instructions should translate to "set this flag" rather than "kill the process and BUG the fuck out"
03:21:55 <kmc> fixing access_ok to know about vsyscall is dumb because nobody actually cares and because making that code more complicated will harm security
03:22:08 <kmc> the performance wankers would all switch over to ____do_real_access_ok()
03:22:18 <kmc> and then there would be a bug in that
03:22:20 <elliott> i think it's literally a trivial change to the point of not harming security
03:22:28 <elliott> because it's one single page on one platform
03:22:45 <shachaf> elliott: But no one cares.
03:22:46 <kmc> you should fork linux on github
03:22:48 <kmc> and make this one change
03:22:57 <shachaf> And submit a pull request via GitHub!
03:23:04 <elliott> and post stupid meme images in it
03:23:08 <elliott> and post it to proggit and hn
03:23:13 <elliott> and wait for people to flame linux for being so behind-the-times
03:23:30 <elliott> anyway i might send a patch to lkml
03:23:47 <shachaf> "dec eax; mov eax, 0x60; syscall; ret"
03:24:05 <shachaf> elliott: You already know the response to the patch will be "no one cares".
03:24:18 <elliott> shachaf: maybe linus will see it and merge it
03:24:24 <zzo38> Why do they need to decrement eax register there?
03:24:36 <elliott> doesn't decrement do stuff to the higher part of rax there
03:24:40 <zzo38> Does it have anything to do with the flags for zero condition and so on?
03:24:40 <shachaf> It might be that that zeros the upper half of the register or something?
03:24:58 <shachaf> I remember that rax/eax /= eax/ax in that respect.
03:25:01 <itidus21> this is why i don't like assembly language
03:26:30 <madbrr> I think in 64 bit writing to eax zeroes the higher bits
03:27:19 <madbrr> but mov also zeroes them
03:27:22 <kmc> doesn't mov eax, 0x60 do that
03:27:31 <shachaf> I want an x86 assembly REPL. :-(
03:27:40 <kmc> shachaf: where did you find that code
03:27:44 <itidus21> (to give it an abbot and costello sense of confusion)
03:27:56 <kmc> hmm mine doesn't have
03:28:07 <zzo38> shachaf: Is the DOS DEBUG good enough? Maybe not as it is not a proper REPL
03:28:19 <shachaf> kmc: You can probably guess what went wrong. :-)
03:28:24 <elliott> madbrr: Repeat enter p-list. It's an x86 instruction.
03:28:25 -!- cmapernet has joined.
03:28:34 -!- cmapernet has left.
03:28:36 <kmc> shachaf: wrong disassembly mode?
03:28:56 <shachaf> Which is the 64-bit register prefix.
03:29:06 <shachaf> Or something along those lines.
03:29:59 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
03:30:04 <shachaf> kmc: How's your libcless server going?
03:31:19 <kmc> one day i will share it
03:31:32 <kmc> but it's even more pointlessly "look at how hardcore i am" than most of the stuff i share
03:31:44 <kmc> i was hoping for it to be a sort of easter egg in another thing
03:31:46 <kmc> but that didn't work out
03:31:52 <shachaf> Oh, now I know why I had to use mmap2() instead of mmap().
03:32:19 <shachaf> "exciting linux history lesson"
03:32:58 <kmc> what were you using mmap for?
03:33:11 <elliott> kmc: by the way there is a text form of CC0
03:33:21 <elliott> http://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/legalcode.txt
03:33:40 <shachaf> (In a debugged process, from the debugger.)
03:33:45 <shachaf> (So I used the syscall number.)
03:33:49 <zzo38> Probably in case public domain doesn't work in some country
03:33:56 <elliott> kmc: also you forgot to waive warranty, see http://wiki.creativecommons.org/CC0_FAQ#May_I_apply_CC0_to_computer_software.3F_If_so.2C_is_there_a_recommended_implementation.3F
03:33:56 <kmc> zzo38: yeah, that is why CC0 exists
03:34:07 <kmc> i thought that was already in there
03:34:28 <kmc> i'm pretty sure i checked
03:34:54 <zzo38> Does CC0 waive contract rights related to copyright?
03:35:00 <kmc> "Affirmer offers the Work as-is and makes no epresentations or warranties of any kind concerning the Work, express, implied, statutory or otherwise, including without limitation warranties of title, merchantability, fitness for a particular purpose, blah blah blah blah blah"
03:35:20 <elliott> kmc: i think the point is to make the warranty disclaimer visible
03:35:25 <elliott> rather than at the bottom of a huge license
03:35:28 <elliott> where it might not hold up
03:35:39 <elliott> THIS IS WHY YOU WRITE IT ALL IN CAPITALS
03:35:42 <kmc> i hate the whole "every source file must start with 3 paragraphs of boilerplate" thing
03:35:45 <kmc> so i don't do it
03:35:50 <elliott> meh, don't bother adding it to a source file
03:35:52 <kmc> i guess one day oracle will sue me for all my meager savings
03:35:57 <elliott> just put the boilerplate text in LICENSE
03:36:04 <elliott> and download CC0 to CC0.txt or something
03:36:12 <kmc> that's not a bad idea
03:36:19 <elliott> i don't add things to source files either
03:36:26 <elliott> if a court ever rules it's required i'll give up programming
03:36:36 <shachaf> elliott: Didn't you already give up programming?
03:36:37 <elliott> or switch to writing proprietary software
03:36:52 <zzo38> For example, you might be in a contract to make something you own the copyright to belonging to them instead. But that would be impossible with public domain.
03:36:54 <shachaf> kmc: You should add a thing to autoconf where it asks you to accept a license.
03:37:00 <kmc> if a court ever rules it's required i will personally teabag everyone in the courtroom
03:37:07 <kmc> "checking if user agrees to the license... yes"
03:37:11 <shachaf> And it makes you scroll all the way down to the bottom before giving you "yes/no" options.
03:37:19 <itidus21> elliott: or you can start coding underground
03:37:24 <shachaf> Even if the license is GPLv2 every time.
03:37:31 <kmc> i like itidus21's idea
03:37:42 <kmc> if you release software anonymously then nobody can come after you for warranty
03:37:49 <kmc> also you can cultivate a mysterious cult of personality
03:38:02 <itidus21> oh uh.. yeah that was exactly my idea
03:39:25 <kmc> provides self-referential description of activity
03:40:06 <shachaf> "provides self-referential description of activity when typed in irc"
03:40:19 <shachaf> That one doesn't even work.
03:40:31 <kmc> minding the gap since 1996
03:40:35 <shachaf> Why isn't this server crashing. :-(
03:40:35 <zzo38> Does CC0 deal with this problem of contracts at all?
03:40:55 <shachaf> kmc: I got the mysterious crash a second time, but the HTTP request was completely boring.
03:41:09 <itidus21> shachaf: first you must realize, there is no server
03:41:11 <shachaf> Now I enabled core dumps (I think) and am stracing everything rather than just network.
03:42:22 <elliott> kmc: mosh is too many files. Can you make it one file instead?
03:42:40 <shachaf> elliott: I recommend sqlite.c
03:42:40 <kmc> here you go: http://git.io/o_7nKw
03:42:56 <kmc> it is in codepage 437!
03:42:59 <shachaf> elliott: Just pass it to base64.
03:43:03 -!- TheJimmyJames has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
03:43:31 -!- TheJimmyJames has joined.
03:43:47 <MDude> Would a contract be able to force you to retract a liscense that gives no conditions under which it may be retracted? I would think that wouldn't make sense.
03:43:53 <HackEgo> TheJimmyJames: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
03:44:01 <elliott> kmc: https://github.com/keithw/mosh/issues/120 +1 +1 +1
03:45:04 <elliott> kmc: another mosh question for you!!!
03:45:10 <elliott> does the mosh client build on Windows?
03:45:28 <lambdabot> http://thenextweb.com/microsoft/2011/01/05/are-mosh-and-jupiter-windows-8s-killer-features/
03:45:28 <lambdabot> Title: Are ‘Mosh’ and ‘Jupiter’ Windows 8′s killer features? - The Next Web
03:45:32 <shachaf> mosh: Windows 8's killer feature
03:46:11 <shachaf> "The current Mosh 1.2 release candidate officially supports building from source on Cygwin. Please try it and report back with any problems." - kmcallister "kmc" mckmc
03:46:38 <itidus21> lol lambdabot.. you have really outdone yourself
03:47:03 <shachaf> «According to Paul, Mosh is a “new tile-based user interface.”»
03:48:26 <lambdabot> http://www.ibiblio.org/freebiblecommentary/pdf/EN/VOL05.pdf
03:48:56 <elliott> shachaf: Cygwin doesn't count.
03:49:50 <monqy> i love immersive apps
03:50:27 <madbrr> also that's like 1½ years old
03:51:08 <itidus21> ahh i was getting mosh confused with mush
03:51:28 <madbrr> presumably, the so called mosh and jupiter stuff are metro
03:51:45 <shachaf> Also programs that are written in C are such a mess.
03:52:10 <zzo38> Does CWEB make it better?
03:52:36 <kmc> "Elegance is not a dispensable luxury but a quality that decides between success and failure" -- Edsger W. Dijkstra
03:52:39 <zzo38> And what is wrong with CGI?
03:52:44 <kmc> you know, as much as this is the kind of thing i *want* to be true
03:52:52 <kmc> i don't really believe it is
03:53:05 <kmc> unless you read "decides" to mean "has some small influence"
03:53:09 <madbrr> shachaf: but if you want to write cpu efficient code then C++ is practically the only way
03:53:22 <kmc> or define "success" to be "producing an elegant system"
03:53:33 <monqy> madbrr: um,,,,,asm!!!!
03:53:34 <zzo38> If you want to write CPU efficient code, there is assembly language. But that is only for the specific CPU.
03:53:42 <monqy> madbrr: "gotta get close to that hard ware"
03:53:50 <zzo38> For working with many computers, you use C or LLVM.
03:53:57 <shachaf> kmc: Overoptimizing for elegance often has an influence in the opposite direction. :-)
03:53:59 <elliott> responding to messages that take a message referring to C and then refer to C++ in response considered "dumb"
03:54:01 <monqy> the hardware is within 1 inch
03:54:05 <monqy> the hardware is within 1 um
03:54:11 <coppro> things I dislike about Haskell: rewriting code into the IO monad is annoying
03:54:16 <monqy> the u is a mu i just cant type mus
03:54:32 <zzo38> coppro: How do you mean?
03:54:56 <kmc> madbrr: most programs don't need maximum CPU efficiency
03:55:07 <kmc> and even the ones that do, they need it only in a small fraction of the code
03:55:15 <elliott> are you really going to start a serious argument in reply to that statement
03:55:34 <monqy> was my argument not serious :'(
03:55:40 <coppro> I am, for my own personal amusement, writing an IRC bot framework. The obvious way is have a String -> String function that runs the bot, and internal modules in the State monad.
03:55:49 <shachaf> You can't be efficient without templates!
03:55:54 <elliott> coppro: that's the wrong way, fwiw
03:55:57 <zzo38> kmc: TeX: The Program does describe some things needing much efficiently in the "inner loop"
03:55:58 <shachaf> madbrr: um,,,,,,asm doesn't have tempalte!!!!!
03:56:00 <monqy> coppro: is it cpu efficient
03:56:04 <elliott> for a start you're depending on lazy io off the bat which is probably not a good idea
03:56:14 <coppro> But then, of course, the modules cannot do IO themselves
03:56:28 <monqy> shachaf: templates are far from the hardware and slow!!! !
03:56:46 <madbrr> afaik asm is barely faster on out of order architectures
03:56:47 <shachaf> monqy: Then why does C++ have them?
03:56:52 <zzo38> You could use (StateT s IO) monad if you will do IO too
03:56:53 <madbrr> unless you're doing SIMD
03:56:58 <elliott> "(This is analogous to screen, in which C-a a sends a literal C-a. The reason this is a good idea is so sending the escape character through a stack of n moshes or screens doesn’t take 2^n keystrokes.)"
03:57:02 <elliott> kmc: now you have n problems
03:57:03 <coppro> stuffing them inside StateT foo IO is the correct way to make them able to do IO
03:57:13 <elliott> coppro: for certain values of correct, sure
03:57:18 <elliott> StateT foo IO is often a bad idea
03:57:20 <coppro> elliott: what do you suggest?
03:57:28 <monqy> shachaf: im checkmate :[
03:57:31 <elliott> I wouldn't model a bot as String -> String in the first place
03:57:41 <coppro> elliott: No, but an IRC conversation is.
03:57:42 <monqy> ~c++ enlighten me~
03:57:43 <elliott> or String -> IO String (<-- this wouldn't work at all actually)
03:57:58 <shachaf> elliott: larrytheliquid wrote an IRC bot in Agda!!!!!!
03:58:10 <MDude> It's true, string -> string ignroes timing, for one thing.
03:58:12 <shachaf> s/modeled/sort of modeled/
03:58:19 <coppro> MDude: You take advantage of laziness.
03:58:43 <elliott> which is completely separate from laziness
03:58:54 <elliott> (for anything other than toy programs, at least)
03:59:12 <MDude> I'm unfortunately too going to bed to talk about bots now.
03:59:17 -!- MDude has changed nick to MSleep.
03:59:23 <elliott> it has some semantic iffiness
03:59:34 <kmc> yay it's just like i'm back in #haskell
03:59:34 <elliott> it destroys more or less any hope of reasonable resource management
03:59:45 <elliott> kmc: it's my present for your apology
04:01:24 <elliott> (because you never know when the resources get cleaned up)
04:01:30 <elliott> (because it's tied to when a certain piece of pure data is evaluated)
04:01:45 <itidus21> monqy: shachaf: i think that the most efficient way to code is to magically never have to refer back to previously written code. in addition it should all be written in shorthand.
04:01:57 <elliott> anyway the reason StateT foo IO is often a bad idea is because it works just as well to use MVars/TVars inside IO
04:02:06 <elliott> and is required if you, e.g. ever want any kind of concurrency
04:02:09 <monqy> itidus21: use 1 letter variable names so the computer can read them faster
04:02:15 <shachaf> elliott: Except you have to pass the MVars around!!!!!!
04:02:22 <elliott> shachaf: ReaderT (MVar foo) IO!!!!!
04:02:26 <elliott> spoiler is: sometimes passing them around is easier
04:02:53 <elliott> coppro: anyway i would probably model an irc bot as Conduit IRCMessage IO IRCMessage or something but ha ha it is probably not best to learn conduits right now
04:02:58 <elliott> (or enumerators or pipes or w / e)
04:03:03 <shachaf> > (compare `on` take 3) "monqy" "monad"
04:03:22 <kmc> i can only assume that new iteratee libraries have been invented at a rate of roughly one per day since i stopped paying attention
04:03:33 <kmc> i think the tubulon iteratoolios are the best
04:03:47 <elliott> you were around for conduits and pipes kmc
04:04:16 <kmc> loud pipes save lives
04:04:25 <elliott> is there any hope of the mosh client compiling for windows without cygwin
04:04:27 <itidus21> monqy: i'm serious of course. a preference for elegance isn't a personality flaw, but just a mathematical problem waiting to be analyzed.
04:04:37 <kmc> elliott: if someone who knows and cares about windows makes it happen, sure
04:04:47 <elliott> kmc: great! i am neither of these things
04:04:51 <kmc> none of the current core mosh developers know windows or care about windows or like windows
04:04:54 <elliott> rephrase: how many posix calls does mosh use
04:05:02 <kmc> we're happy to take patches though
04:05:05 <kmc> elliott: a fair number
04:05:39 <elliott> the subtext is: i wish there was like a putty fork with mosh support so it was more useful to me
04:05:58 <itidus21> coding should be done in such a way that simply don't have to look back on code which has been written, ever.
04:06:06 <elliott> more like "the real thing is:"
04:06:18 <kmc> itidus21: ………
04:06:37 <coppro> elliott: how much do you actually code in Haskell?
04:06:48 <Sgeo> elliott uses Windows?
04:07:23 <Sgeo> itidus21, so, working on Human 2.0 to try to make that possible?
04:08:18 <Sgeo> itidus21, suppose that there's a bug...
04:08:27 <elliott> coppro: 99% of the new programs i write are haskell
04:08:32 <elliott> coppro: i don't program much right now
04:08:38 <elliott> sometimes i don't program much at all
04:08:44 <elliott> but when i do it's usually patching someone else's code or haskell
04:08:50 <elliott> and i toy about in haskell a bit
04:08:58 <coppro> I keep wondering how you retain all this stuff
04:08:58 <elliott> i have also answered a lot of haskell questions on stack overflow :p
04:09:15 <elliott> coppro: it's been like... 3, 4 years since i started programming haskell
04:09:29 <elliott> and also i used to hang out in #haskell a lot (but i don't recommend doing this any more)
04:10:04 <elliott> #haskell is interesting now if you can answer all the newbie questions that come up quickly, identify and ignore terrible stuff, and like talking to people who know haskell a lot, but not so much if you're not already experienced
04:10:25 <zzo38> O, that is what they do?
04:10:41 <kmc> my problem is that (like everyone else) i want to explain things *my* way
04:10:49 <kmc> and i got sick of fighting about which explanation is best
04:10:49 <coppro> elliott: actually, Conduit doesn't look so bad
04:10:57 <zzo38> The question of how to make (IO x) into (x) is very common by people who do not understand Haskell
04:11:05 <elliott> coppro: yes. (conduit is wrong in several respects)
04:11:08 <elliott> (but other libraries are wrong too)
04:11:28 <elliott> (the main reason not to learn conduit now is because there are like 4 libraries for doing roughly the same thing right now)
04:16:20 <elliott> does anyone know of a server that just does ssh authentication but isn't tied to unix users
04:16:29 <elliott> and instead of starting a shell just starts a command with the info it got or such
04:16:37 <elliott> so it has a separate user/password/pubkey database
04:17:43 <itidus21> "The question of whether Machines Can Think... is about as relevant as the question of whether Submarines Can Swim." ~ Edsger W. Dijkstra
04:18:39 <zzo38> Yes, it does seem a similar kind of question
04:19:52 <itidus21> "Don't blame me for the fact that competent programming, as I view it as an intellectual possibility, will be too difficult for "the average programmer" you must not fall into the trap of rejecting a surgical technique because it is beyond the capabilities of the barber in his shop around the corner." ~ Edsger W. Dijkstra
04:19:57 <coppro> elliott: unless you suggest me a good library to use ima go do something stupid
04:20:27 <elliott> the great thing about stupid things in haskell is that they break :P
04:20:38 <elliott> imo you should model the bot as String -> String and use unsafePerformIO internally!!!
04:20:51 <elliott> how many exclamation marks do i need to convey sarcasm!!!!!!!
04:21:51 <coppro> elliott: yes, but the question about the breakage is where they break
04:22:23 <zzo38> I have now added support for timers and time limits to Internet Quiz Engine.
04:22:30 <coppro> specifically, do they break before or after I am done with them
04:28:15 <coppro> but I mean specifically when will I encounter that :)
04:28:26 <coppro> so why do you recommend against conduit, then?
04:29:31 <zzo38> Do you like "abstract nonsense"?
04:30:05 <elliott> but I wouldn't learn it at the stage I imagine you're at
04:30:28 -!- david_werecat has joined.
04:30:33 <zzo38> Do you like Internet Quiz Engine?
04:31:45 <coppro> elliott: I'm slightly more advanced than you seem to think.
04:31:53 <coppro> elliott: it really does not look all that hard.
04:32:08 <elliott> I would still not recommend learning it
04:32:17 <elliott> especialyl since you'll need to use supporting libraries to pull off an irc bot effectively with it
04:32:42 <itidus21> zzo38: can your question be modelled in lambda calculus?
04:32:43 -!- TheJimmyJames has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
04:33:00 <zzo38> itidus21: Probably not.
04:33:23 <itidus21> i either say yes or no or nothing
04:34:06 <zzo38> Who is TheJimmyJames?
04:35:06 <itidus21> "Do you like Internet Quiz Engine? Yes" becomes "You like Internet Quiz engine."; "Do you like Internet Quiz Engine? No" becomes "You don't like Internet Quiz engine."; "Do you like Internet Quiz Engine?" remains "Do you like Internet Quiz Engine?"
04:36:15 <zzo38> Obviously most people in this channel (myself included) are somewhat insane
04:37:14 <coppro> elliott: what sort of supporting libraries? Now that I look, the obvious thing seems to connect TCP =$= parser =$= bot logic =$= formatter =$= TCP
04:37:28 <elliott> writing the parser will be a pain without e.g. attoparsec-conduit
04:37:31 <elliott> formatter will be easier but
04:37:48 <elliott> i already have irc stuff for conduit written but i've been perennially terrible in getting it to hackage
04:37:56 <shachaf> elliott: What do you think of O_DIRECT?
04:38:18 <coppro> elliott: therefore it doesn't exist qed
04:40:55 <zzo38> Selector strings are quiz.menu*a (type 1) for the Internet Quiz Engine main menu, and textfile/miscellaneous/onlinequiz.txt (type 0) for the comparison chart
04:42:50 <zzo38> Have you looked at the quiz editor on OkCupid and/or played any quizzes on OkCupid? Internet Quiz Engine actually has many similarities
04:50:26 -!- elliott has changed nick to elliott_.
04:50:28 <zzo38> Internet Quiz Engine is free and open source software, it is written in C, it has no advertising or other annoyances, supports time limits, has versatile questions/responses/results, no registration is required, supports skipping conditional questions, can upload/download the quiz files, and uses low bandwidth.
04:51:38 <zzo38> Some of these features do not exist in any of the other programs I have reviewed.
04:52:46 <itidus21> you are like the linux torvalds of quiz engines
04:53:20 <kmc> @remember itidus21 you are like the linux torvalds of quiz engines
04:54:33 <zzo38> What does that mean?
04:55:06 <itidus21> the meaning is largely subjective
04:55:29 <zzo38> Well, Linux is also free and open source software written in C, but is that what you meant?
04:55:45 <shachaf> kmc: You should've used `addquote. :-(
04:56:00 <zzo38> shachaf: Then you use `addquote if that is what you want
04:56:15 <kmc> i just like "linux torvalds"
04:56:24 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `a -> b'
04:56:36 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show (f b))
04:56:36 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `M6020407245...
04:59:07 <elliott_> `addquote <itidus21> you are like the linux torvalds of quiz engines
04:59:10 <HackEgo> 845) <itidus21> you are like the linux torvalds of quiz engines
05:02:56 <shachaf> Hello, this is Linux Torvalds, and I pronounce Linus as Linus.
05:05:26 <shachaf> elliptic: Try AuNO instead of FeDK!
05:06:04 <shachaf> gold > iron; norway > denmark; qed
05:06:47 <coppro> elliott_: alternatively, just hackage your goddamn IRC stuff ;)
05:06:52 <coppro> elliott_: also wake ais up
05:06:59 <coppro> I need to complain to him
05:07:08 <zzo38> The source codes for Internet Quiz Engine is 9KB; I don't know how long the codes of the other programs are since I have not seen them, but I guess most of them are probably longer and less efficient, because they want to add advertising and all sorts of HTML stuff, and some people write bad codes in general, and other reasons
05:07:26 <zzo38> I have Periodic Table of Elements on the wall in my bedroom
05:07:39 <shachaf> zzo38: Is Internet Quiz Engine written in C?
05:07:57 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes. You can even look at the source-codes if you want to.
05:08:55 <shachaf> --2012-05-26 22:08:48-- http://quiz.menu*d/
05:08:55 <shachaf> Resolving quiz.menu*d (quiz.menu*d)... failed: Name or service not known.
05:08:55 <shachaf> wget: unable to resolve host address `quiz.menu*d'
05:09:28 <zzo38> Try using this command instead: echo 'quiz.menu*d' | nc zzo38computer.cjb.net 70 > inquiz.w
05:09:41 <zzo38> You might need nc -q -1 depending on the version of netcat
05:11:24 <shachaf> Undefined behavior when you call inquiz with argc==0 !
05:11:50 <zzo38> shachaf: True, but it is never called that way.
05:12:06 <shachaf> I just called it that way.
05:12:28 <shachaf> But the error calls printf with %s, NULL.
05:13:05 <zzo38> It does. Well, still, it will never be called that way when properly installed.
05:16:25 <zzo38> The program is not meant to be run from the command-line; it won't work that way. It should run from a gopher server with the argument specifying the name of the configuration file, and the environment variable SELECTOR containing the selector string.
05:18:29 <itidus21> zzo38: just as a good bitmap renderer is best shown off with a landscape photo or a renaissance painting, the proof is in the pudding so to speak
05:18:34 <zzo38> You can, of course, set the SELECTOR using the command-line (you need export as well), but it doesn't really work well that way. Still, if you want to, you can make up a shell script or something else that sets SELECTOR and then formats the choices on the screen for local mode
05:18:51 <itidus21> a quiz engine lives off a diet of good quizzes
05:19:39 <zzo38> itidus21: True; currently there are only two files other than the example file, and that is why I ask you to add some if you have anything to add
05:20:55 <itidus21> a motivated individual i am not
05:21:35 <itidus21> but its easier on my brains than most other topics
05:21:37 <zzo38> Ah. Well, when I have some to add, I can add it myself; but usually I have none, so other people can add some instead if they can write some to add.
05:23:11 <itidus21> so the atom of the quiz is a multiple choice question, right?
05:27:05 <itidus21> The fictional city of Midgar and Pacman were both inspired by this: a)chocolate b)pasta c)pizza d)mushrooms
05:27:36 <monqy> I dislike mushrooms. chocolate,pasta,pizza can be good.
05:28:05 <itidus21> i know it's easy.. and maybe even a little dumb.. but that is the greatest quiz question the world has ever seen
05:28:44 <monqy> itidus21: what's the answer ?
05:29:14 <monqy> e)all of the above
05:29:16 <zzo38> itidus21: Well, it is a valid question which can be included in a quiz file if you want to, but a single question is not so good. Ask if you don't understand how.
05:29:43 <zzo38> Is it a pizza with a slice cut out?
05:30:00 <itidus21> heres midgar: http://cdn.dualshockers.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/midgar.jpg
05:30:23 <zzo38> I don't know Midgar
05:30:31 <monqy> shachaf: ew, mushrooms!!!
05:30:35 <zzo38> shachaf: O, yes, pizza can have mushrooms on it too
05:30:36 <itidus21> if you look at the picture then you know it
05:30:51 <monqy> it looks like a pasta
05:31:09 <zzo38> monqy: What kind of pasta?
05:31:25 <shachaf> monqy: do you like clouds?
05:31:33 <shachaf> HOW ABOUT: MUSHROOM CLOUDS??
05:31:49 <monqy> you've checkmated me!!
05:31:51 <zzo38> shachaf: Maybe, but what I mean by "What kind of pasta?", like, spaghetti, tortellini, bowtie pasta, short pasta, etc
05:32:06 <shachaf> monqy: Do you like 5-HT agonists?
05:32:06 <itidus21> shachaf: http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs29/f/2008/106/a/4/Mario_Mushroom_Cloud_by_shadowmcr.jpg
05:32:20 <monqy> shachaf: what's that
05:32:26 <itidus21> truly the internet has everything
05:32:41 <monqy> kmc: what's a 5-ht antagonists
05:33:07 <itidus21> he said agonist not antagonist
05:33:17 <shachaf> monqy: Actually I mean 5-HT_2A agonists.
05:33:19 <monqy> kmc: what's a 5-ht agonists
05:33:28 <monqy> kmc: what's a 5-ht-2a agonists
05:34:13 <itidus21> i know it's not a typo cos i remember there was this guy in a chatroom named agonistic
05:37:05 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
05:39:17 <madbrr> reading the bible testament
05:39:42 <monqy> if you sell it, will you get money ?
05:39:49 <monqy> I hear gems do that
05:39:50 <elliott_> i read the bible testament once
05:40:03 <shachaf> monqy: You can sell 5-HT_2A agonists for money.
05:40:06 <shachaf> But it's usually illegal. :-(
05:40:20 <monqy> I still don't know what those are !!
05:42:44 <elliott_> @tell ion <Sequell> 178460 games for hugeterm: 103206x Sebi, 8951x KiloByte, 8081x heteroy, 4165x Johan, 3489x ion
05:42:55 <elliott_> @tell ion you are one of the most prolific hugetermers ever. cease your evil.
05:43:23 <shachaf> is that like a hugepage :'(
05:48:36 <itidus21> "Tux Paint was designed in such a way that the user does not need to understand the underlying operating system or how to deal with files.
05:49:29 -!- aloril has joined.
06:05:50 <Sgeo> elliott_, have you seen Codelink? It's apparently a free (not sure if as in beer or speech) hollywood hacking game
06:07:13 <Sgeo> I.. think it's online multiplayer too
06:09:06 <Sgeo> "Goonies never say die!" (on the about page)
06:09:16 <Sgeo> Well, that really speaks to the professionalism of the author
06:11:28 <Sgeo> "Attempting to access game content from any means other than the Codelink Game itself will result in a server ban for life."
06:11:48 <Sgeo> "Only one account can be active per IP address."
06:12:40 <Sgeo> Don't make an account if someone's looking over your shoulders, the password fields don't obscure the password
06:12:59 <monqy> sounds like a good game
06:13:40 <Sgeo> I don't even want to do my typical "crap password" routine, those are still too valuable for me to trust to this place
06:14:04 <zzo38> What is your opinion about minimum wage?
06:15:22 -!- madbrr has quit (Quit: Radiateur).
06:15:53 <zzo38> I am against minimum wage.
06:23:35 <Sgeo> ...why is an email client in the hardware section?
06:24:14 * Sgeo connects to 0.128.0.1
06:25:31 <Sgeo> I'll play with it later
06:25:49 <Sgeo> I think the only tutorial is a video tutorial
06:41:11 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
06:57:39 -!- asiekierka has joined.
07:02:32 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
07:02:51 -!- sebbu has joined.
07:02:51 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host).
07:02:51 -!- sebbu has joined.
07:27:21 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
07:37:47 -!- PatashuXantheres has joined.
07:40:29 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
07:41:22 <elliott_> PatashuXantheres: You should name my branch!
07:57:05 -!- pikhq has joined.
07:57:14 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
08:30:31 <elliott_> that was completely useless, I appreciate it
08:37:42 <itidus21> Elliott's Crawl II: a branch of no name
08:42:17 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
08:42:31 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
08:44:01 <itidus21> Being Not So Much A Derivative As An Improvement Upon Crawl.
08:45:46 <fungot> itidus21: not giving up it's time slot do? interpret esolangs?
08:54:50 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
08:55:04 <itidus21> A strange occurance by which one attempts to eat a tomato raw rather than use it in fish burgers
08:57:25 <itidus21> its amazing how good the sauces made from them taste
08:58:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
08:58:33 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host).
08:58:33 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
08:58:34 <elliott_> no Phantom_Hoover evaporate into sun
09:00:28 <itidus21> a bit of salt, butter and toast and they're the greatest food ever invented
09:01:02 <monqy> did you know: I know the man who invented tomatoes?
09:01:07 <monqy> lesser-known monqy fact
09:01:11 <monqy> he's old now, of course
09:01:27 <itidus21> but on their own they're rubbish
09:02:06 <itidus21> it means you can wear oldman clothes
09:02:15 <monqy> i love oldman clothes
09:02:24 <monqy> when i was young i could not wear oldman clothes
09:02:29 <monqy> this is all the reason i need
09:02:57 <itidus21> i think i need to find visual context to oldman clothes
09:03:38 <itidus21> aha 1)cardigans worn with shirts
09:04:14 <monqy> oldmans have all the luck
09:04:19 <monqy> good thing i am an oldman
09:05:15 <monqy> oldmans luck strikes again
09:07:01 <itidus21> i don't know if that counts as a subverted trope :-D
09:07:06 -!- pikhq has joined.
09:07:08 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
09:07:35 -!- aloril has joined.
09:07:39 <monqy> oldmans are very subversive I'll have you know
09:08:05 <itidus21> and this... http://www.plefka.net/images/GrandpaChair.gif you get to wear all these things on comfy chairs
09:08:25 <monqy> get that creepo kid out of my face!!
09:08:28 <monqy> stop looking at me!!
09:08:44 <HackEgo> 349) <monqy> my most fresh dream is one where I'm at a soup contest and a chicken really wants to participate but he's disqualified so he becomes the judge. when all the soups are done and he's ready to taste them he just stares at the soup and then I become the chicken and I really want to make soup
09:08:55 <HackEgo> 590) <elliott> Dear god stop staring at me. <monqy> no never <Phantom_Hoover> monqy is always staring at everyone. <monqy> it takes many eyes to do this but I manage <Phantom_Hoover> He is an inspiration to us all.
09:09:27 <itidus21> apparently the kids eyes are transparent
09:09:56 <itidus21> designed for display on a white background
09:10:43 <monqy> excellent deduction itidus21 !
09:10:51 <itidus21> not quite.. the very idea that they would leave the eyes transparent itself is quite creepy
09:11:25 <itidus21> they could play some kind of fire animation behind them
09:12:52 <itidus21> then you should avoid this https://ssl.catalog.com/~pennviewvisuals.biz/store/images/Grandpa%20&%20Bradley.jpg
09:13:43 <itidus21> ok ill try and get back to the topic
09:14:01 -!- oonbotti has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
09:15:06 <itidus21> so theres those woolen tops with the boring patterns you get to wear.. the flat-coloured tracksuits, the flanelette shirts
09:15:35 -!- nortti has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
09:17:26 <monqy> do i get to wear a toupee, or am I too old for that
09:17:29 -!- nortti has joined.
09:17:32 <monqy> does my pipe blow bubbles
09:36:24 -!- derdon has joined.
09:44:44 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello).
09:46:30 -!- rszeno has joined.
09:49:42 <rszeno> i'm curios, what do you think about this "Haskell Curry proposed combinatory logic as a logica universalis, but it ran into inconsistency problems. (I'm trying to use fuzzy-probabilistic truth values to get around that problem, but that's a different topic.)"
09:50:04 <elliott_> i'm not sure what you mean by it
09:50:28 <rszeno> is not my statement, somebody else
09:50:32 <elliott_> if the point is that "combinatory logic is tc" then yes sure
09:50:40 <elliott_> i don't know what the fuzzy stuff is about, sounds like nonsense
09:51:07 <rszeno> yes, this is my opinion too
09:51:31 <elliott_> i mean sure fuzzy logic is a thing, i have no idea how it relates to the consistency of a computational system interpreted as a logic at all though
09:52:16 <rszeno> imo is no connection, are two different formlisms
09:52:59 <rszeno> are few other things there, http://geniferology.blogspot.com/
09:53:15 <rszeno> unification - the calculus of concepts
09:54:01 <elliott_> hmm, AGI and an aforementioned statement about formal logic that makes no sense
09:54:05 <elliott_> my quackery meter just exploded
09:55:09 <elliott_> the pictures are pretty, though!
09:55:57 <rszeno> probably are from some books
09:56:09 <elliott_> http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_mWGkAr1Xo5Y/TH3kkjFPUjI/AAAAAAAAAag/O_IrFTLIagA/s1600/dannhyperassociativemap.png like this
09:57:46 <rszeno> they have some software, http://code.google.com/p/genifer/
09:58:09 -!- nortti_ has joined.
09:58:24 <elliott_> http://code.google.com/p/genifer/source/browse/haskell/Genifer.lhs yep, sure is a unification algorithm
10:02:00 <rszeno> hard for me to read haskell now, :) i didn't use it last two years at all
10:05:36 <rszeno> i can't separate latex from haskell, :)
10:06:29 <elliott_> there's more latex than haskell there :p
10:07:33 -!- nortti_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
10:07:34 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
10:07:41 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
10:07:49 -!- PatashuXantheres has changed nick to Patashu.
10:11:57 <HackEgo> 446) <itidus20> to assume that someone can be described by a rule without exception... is to assume they are omnipotent <oklopol> for instance stones are omnipotent, as they don't do anything, without exception \ 469) <itidus20> monqy: last night in my dreams I saw a false photo album of my childhood... looking ghostly \ 470) <monqy> itidus20: i saw a dancing cgi skeleton named malaria. i danced and played with him.
10:12:35 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
10:13:10 <HackEgo> 446) <itidus20> to assume that someone can be described by a rule without exception... is to assume they are omnipotent <oklopol> for instance stones are omnipotent, as they don't do anything, without exception
10:15:47 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
10:16:38 <rszeno> so i'm right when i say that genifer blog is a nonsense from begining to end?
10:17:42 <itidus21> rszeno: oh im just trying to show that i am a quack.
10:18:21 <elliott_> rszeno: most of it looks like nonsense to me
10:18:29 <elliott_> there is some stuff that makes sense but nothing of particular value
10:18:35 <elliott_> don't lose any sleep over understanding it :p
10:20:23 <rszeno> this look like a new religion, is annoying
10:21:24 <itidus21> rszeno: probably he has lots of mental problems.
10:22:33 -!- elliott_ has left.
10:28:29 <itidus21> many of the posts says "posted by YKY" .. and this is the profile of YKY http://www.blogger.com/profile/15037419974603456698
10:29:36 <rszeno> is the leader of the group
10:29:42 <itidus21> under his interests is life extension
10:29:50 <itidus21> wikipedia defines life extension as: Life extension science, also known as anti-aging medicine, experimental gerontology, and biomedical gerontology, is the study of slowing down or reversing the processes of aging to extend both the maximum and average lifespan.
10:30:43 <itidus21> like, whats with his ridiculous pic.. who does he think he is :P
10:30:48 <rszeno> a little napoleon, imo
10:31:40 <itidus21> ok ok NOW look heer :o http://cybernetic1.blogspot.com.au/
10:32:02 <itidus21> posted by YKY "I was locked up in a mental hospital for ~3 weeks, "
10:32:31 <rszeno> i try two years ago to join the group but i give up when somebody said that YKY 'decide everything'
10:32:39 <itidus21> yes, he has been in a mental hospital!!
10:33:03 <rszeno> i wander why they release him
10:33:24 <itidus21> and his interest is extending lifespan
10:33:35 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
10:33:45 -!- asiekierka has joined.
10:42:48 -!- Vorpal has joined.
10:42:50 <itidus21> well, i am not typical of this channel at all. and my own journals are a bit off the wall kind of like yky i suppose
10:43:52 <itidus21> i mean, i don't understand the topics of this channel.
10:46:01 <rszeno> i think i'm odd too, :)
10:46:15 -!- elliott_ has joined.
10:46:24 <elliott_> kmc: Wow, I search for a urxvt problem and get a mosh issue opened by you.
10:46:29 <itidus21> and i don't think mr yky understands his own topics either.
10:46:50 <elliott_> Are you still talking about that silly blog?
10:47:39 <itidus21> elliott_: i made the fascinating discovery that the guy who runs it has spent time in a mental hospital
10:47:40 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
10:47:42 -!- pikhq has joined.
10:49:10 <rszeno> yes, but you didn't make a major simplification in the unification algo published in AIMA, :)
10:50:11 <rszeno> the point is that your could make sense, this guy just collect words from some books to impress people
10:50:37 <itidus21> rszeno: i think what he is doing is thinking aloud to himself via a blog..
10:51:53 <rszeno> some people from his group are really nice and have potential but ...
10:52:26 <rszeno> one of my friends told me about this
10:53:09 <itidus21> honestly i think he is as nuts as me..
10:53:10 <rszeno> i don't really care, i ask to be sure that i'm not mad, :)
10:53:39 <itidus21> and if you saw some of my absurd rants you would think thats cause for concern
10:55:18 <rszeno> if you show me one i promise i will tell you my opinion, honestly, :)
10:55:51 <itidus21> <itidus21> A strange occurance by which one attempts to eat a tomato raw rather than use it in fish burgers <itidus21> awfully bitter the tomato <itidus21> its amazing how good the sauces made from them taste
10:56:25 <itidus21> <itidus21> i think that the most efficient way to code is to magically never have to refer back to previously written code. in addition it should all be written in shorthand.
10:58:19 <rszeno> first is difficult to translate for me, i miss some details, but look like a matter of taste, nothing weird, imo
10:59:27 <itidus21> anyway, it's amazing what the imagination will come up with to replace lack of knowledge of a subject
10:59:30 <rszeno> second, i'm curios how can be done
11:00:33 <rszeno> new code, not refering means not reusing, that means reinventing over and over again?
11:00:53 <itidus21> i was talking bullshit, you see
11:01:24 <itidus21> it is quite often that people say things which are wrong
11:01:48 <rszeno> yes, i'm doing this too
11:02:32 <itidus21> basically i don't understand mathematics and YKY certainly doesn't either
11:02:42 -!- elliott_ has left.
11:05:27 <rszeno> i try to know what i know, :) i think most of my life i learn, :)
11:09:41 -!- oonbotti has joined.
11:16:56 -!- Taneb has joined.
11:32:58 -!- david_werecat has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
11:43:18 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
11:43:45 -!- asiekierka has joined.
11:48:09 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
11:48:14 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
11:52:46 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
11:53:11 -!- HackEgo has quit (*.net *.split).
11:53:11 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (*.net *.split).
11:53:11 -!- Zetro has quit (*.net *.split).
11:53:11 -!- mtve has quit (*.net *.split).
11:53:19 -!- lifthrasiir has joined.
12:01:22 <Taneb> Installing an old game:
12:01:28 <Taneb> Reccomended disk space: 50 MP
12:01:33 <Taneb> 4294966277 MB available
12:02:11 <fizzie> 50 MB is quite much, too.
12:02:44 <Taneb> It's an ambitious 1997 game
12:02:53 -!- pikhq has joined.
12:02:58 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
12:06:51 <Taneb> That was before I lived in Australia
12:07:22 <itidus21> i love how posting one word with a trailing ellipsis convey drama
12:10:10 <itidus21> is it on this list? http://www.csoon.com/top10097.htm
12:10:51 <itidus21> "Games released late in the year will have less votes. " whatever that means
12:12:57 -!- Zetro has joined.
12:16:11 -!- HackEgo has joined.
12:16:11 -!- mtve has joined.
12:21:35 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
12:38:23 -!- MSleep has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
12:51:12 <Taneb> anarcho-capitalism is the second worst kind of anarchy
12:51:36 <Taneb> Anarcho-I'm in charge now
12:51:57 <Taneb> cf. Doctor Horrible's Singalong Blog
12:52:13 <nortti> speaking of anarchism have you heard of country named Free Territory?
12:53:40 <Taneb> According to my high speed wikipedia reading, it was disestablished in 1921
12:54:20 <nortti> by soviet union claiming it was ruled by dictatorship
12:54:51 <nortti> (Free Territory was only communistic contry that was really communist)
12:57:41 <nortti> it was anarcho-communistic state that had freedom of speech, press, assembly and unions and real democracy
13:04:15 <nortti> `cat /dev/urandom > /dev/dsp
13:04:17 <HackEgo> cat: /dev/urandom > /dev/dsp: No such file or directory
13:04:21 <nortti> `run cat /dev/urandom > /dev/dsp
13:04:25 <HackEgo> bash: /dev/dsp: Permission denied
13:05:02 <nortti> Gregor: why are you running bash?
13:05:24 <Gregor> Because bash is better than you.
13:06:08 <nortti> it is slow and bloated. why don't just use ash?
13:07:36 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
13:13:20 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
13:13:31 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host).
13:13:31 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
13:20:12 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
13:21:57 <Taneb> Phantom__Hoover, is your computer on fire?
13:22:22 <Phantom__Hoover> It's near an open window to a garden, maybe a fly's doing it to mess with me.
13:22:33 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
13:22:37 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
13:22:59 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
13:28:09 -!- pikhq has joined.
13:28:23 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
13:50:13 -!- rszeno has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
13:59:07 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
14:01:22 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
14:06:08 -!- MSleep has joined.
14:12:07 -!- aloril has joined.
14:16:50 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
14:29:03 -!- aloril has joined.
14:32:14 -!- AlexeyShentyakov has joined.
14:33:59 -!- AlexeyShentyakov has left.
14:34:36 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
14:43:08 -!- MDuck has joined.
14:43:49 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
14:43:54 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
14:44:11 -!- MSleep has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
14:47:23 -!- aloril has joined.
14:56:14 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: leaving).
14:56:31 -!- nortti has joined.
15:05:39 <ion> @tell elliott I haven’t actually played that many games, i simply did some stat rerolling on a friend’s puny game server whose stats got merged to Sequell later. :-P
15:06:47 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
15:19:18 -!- aloril has joined.
15:27:58 -!- pikhq has joined.
15:28:04 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
16:00:37 <nooga> the heap in OS X is executable
16:01:05 <nooga> even if you mprotect it to readonly
16:02:39 <olsner> obviously it has to be, exploits would stop working if they changed that
16:07:11 <coppro> elliott: Also, how would you manage state in an IRC bot that way? An IORef?
16:12:06 -!- azaq23 has joined.
16:15:29 <coppro> like terribad at things
16:19:49 -!- Case1 has joined.
16:28:14 -!- gotama has joined.
16:30:20 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
16:37:41 <nortti> Phantom__Hoover: I have never used. I'll try it out and say what I think about it later
16:39:14 <nortti> hmm. seems to be more memory hungy than busybox ash
16:39:54 <ion> I like zsh.
16:41:15 <ion> I also like https://github.com/robbyrussell/oh-my-zsh
16:41:15 <nortti> hmm. pretty nice shell but I kinda like busybox ash more. I can sometimes notice little lag with tab completition
16:41:32 <Phantom__Hoover> It is in fact possible to implement a fully-functioning HTTP server using only shell builtins.
16:42:00 <nortti> it has something like nc builtin?
16:42:05 <Phantom__Hoover> It doesn't have a man page; it has an index for seventeen seperate man pages.
16:43:03 <nortti> is there some big advantage over ash not counting user friendlines?
16:43:36 <nortti> also what does 3 in 3:~% prompt mean
16:43:49 <Deewiant> It does have the 'zshall' man page, which is a concatenation of the others.
16:45:00 <nortti> zsh: command not found: zftp
16:45:27 <Phantom__Hoover> Yes; I'm taking certain liberties here, because all this stuff /is/ modularised and has to be loaded first.
16:46:20 <nortti> Phantom__Hoover: do you know what 3 mean in 3:~% prompt
16:47:24 <Phantom__Hoover> You haven't tab-completed until you've tab-completed with spelling correction and keyboard-navigable menus.
16:47:58 <Phantom__Hoover> I don't remember; try zconfigure and obvious abbreviations
16:48:50 <nortti> zc ^I lists zcat zcip zcompile
16:50:26 <nortti> hmm. I kinda dislike zsh's tab completition
16:51:19 <nortti> ok shell and at least better than bash but I prefer ash
16:54:19 <nortti> I'd rand it above ksh but just below busybox ash
16:54:38 <ion> I love being able to type /u/s/d/zsh/RE<tab> and have that completed to /usr/share/doc/zsh-beta/README.
16:55:31 <ion> nortti: Did you try oh-my-zsh?
16:58:30 -!- ais523 has joined.
16:58:32 -!- ais523 has quit (Changing host).
16:58:32 -!- ais523 has joined.
17:00:52 <nortti> well it is kinda like tcsh for me. I could probably learn to love it but for now it feels strange
17:16:57 -!- madbr has joined.
17:25:15 -!- zzo38 has joined.
17:26:26 -!- david_werecat has joined.
17:42:13 -!- gotama has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/).
17:43:36 <Vorpal> hm... how do you handle interrupts in Forth?
17:44:06 <nortti> what kind of interrupts?
17:44:30 <madbr> isn't that something you only do in dos programs?
17:44:40 <Vorpal> nortti, hardware interrupts?
17:44:50 <Vorpal> madbr, I'm targeting a 6802 here...
17:44:56 <nortti> Vorpal: what are you programming?
17:44:59 <ais523> presumably you just write pointers to the interrupt vector
17:44:59 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
17:45:03 <ais523> same way as you do in any other language
17:45:08 <lambdabot> elliott said 17h 51m 2s ago: glogbot's stupid timezone is UTC
17:45:08 <lambdabot> elliott_ asked 12h 37m 53s ago: wake up
17:45:18 <madbr> vorpal: You're lucky you're not writing assembly then :D
17:45:28 <Vorpal> madbr, well I might need some
17:45:58 <Vorpal> <lambdabot> elliott said 17h 51m 2s ago: glogbot's stupid timezone is UTC <-- hm? UTC doesn't sound stupid to me
17:46:17 <Vorpal> <nortti> Vorpal: what are you programming? <-- what do you mean?
17:46:20 <zzo38> I don't think there is any problem to handle interrupts in Forth
17:46:28 <Vorpal> atm I'm trying to figure out this Forth implementation
17:46:29 <nortti> Vorpal: what kind of program
17:46:38 <Vorpal> which means I'm not coding anything specific just yet
17:47:19 <nortti> Vorpal: there is no standardised way. you can write to memory locations with !
17:47:22 -!- |evilliopttic_PA has joined.
17:48:04 <|evilliopttic_PA> 17:45:58: <Vorpal> <lambdabot> elliott said 17h 51m 2s ago: glogbot's stupid timezone is UTC <-- hm? UTC doesn't sound stupid to me
17:48:27 <|evilliopttic_PA> 23:53:50: <elliott> 00:51 <ais523> that'll be UTC not glogbot-stupid-timezone
17:48:36 <nortti> |evilliopttic_PA: what is with that nick
17:48:54 <Vorpal> it is annoying to type |. That involves altgr
17:49:31 <Vorpal> (altgr-<, where < is to the left of z)
17:49:47 <madbr> shift + key left of 1 on my kb
17:50:01 <madbr> \ is worse (altgr + key left of 1)
17:50:13 -!- oerjan has joined.
17:50:22 <ais523> elliott: well I'm awake now
17:50:23 <Vorpal> madbr, shift-(key left of 1) gives me ½. That key in question without shift gives me §
17:50:24 <nortti> madbr: what kind of keybord do you have?
17:50:39 <ais523> this keyboard doesn't have a key to the left of 1
17:50:40 <Vorpal> madbr, \ is altgr-+ where + is right of 0
17:50:44 <Vorpal> madbr, Swedish keyboard here
17:51:10 <ais523> fun fact: many Americans don't realise what altgr is for at all
17:51:13 <nortti> I have finnish keybord wich is exactly the same as swedish
17:51:19 <ais523> because they don't have enough characters in their alphabets for it to be necessary
17:51:24 <madbr> ais: yeah classic :D
17:51:50 <madbr> ais: that's because they have a messed up way to write all the extra vowels over 5 :D
17:52:02 <Kray> standard Finnish qwerty keyboard doesn't have any alphabets behind altgr-combo either
17:52:11 <Vorpal> ais523, for me it is only required to type stuff NOT in Swedish, like \ £ @ $ { [ ] } ~ and so on
17:52:39 <Vorpal> and ~ is altgr-<a dead key I can't type alone, but which is used for stuff like ë> and then a space
17:52:46 <Vorpal> dead keys are annoying
17:52:56 <ais523> pretty much the same in the UK, the only keys with an altgr marked on them are | (not |, although I think they produce the same character on Linux) and €
17:53:03 <madbr> ^ and ` have to be done with dead key + space here
17:53:08 <ais523> there's a ¬ but it's shift-`
17:53:22 <Vorpal> ais523, "| (not |" <-- to me those look the same
17:53:33 <ais523> Vorpal: I think they're the same position in Unicode, on Linux
17:53:38 <nortti> I have to type ~ with dead key+space
17:53:43 <ais523> they generate different characters on Windows, and on DOS
17:53:50 <ais523> although different different characters on the two OSes
17:53:56 <madbr> nortti: altgr + ; here
17:53:57 <Vorpal> ais523, so which one is the one with the hole in the middle?
17:54:00 <fizzie> "Standard Finnish" is nowadays the new SFS 5966 "multilingual" one, and it does have letters behind altgr; though not letters used in Finnish, exactly.
17:54:04 <ais523> is that the same letter?
17:54:17 <shachaf> You should make it send 'е' instead.
17:54:19 <Vorpal> ais523, as far as I can tell, without using a hex editor on my IRC log files
17:54:33 <nortti> madbr: I have it as altgr+key two keys right of p
17:54:59 <madbr> you need altgr on us keyboard to type §¶µ I think
17:55:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, how does it differ from the Swedish layout (for the non-altgr parts I mean)
17:55:08 <shachaf> whoa, dude, I can send «» with AltGr-[]!
17:55:11 <madbr> but these symbols are kinda rare
17:55:19 <shachaf> I was using the Compose key all this time!
17:55:28 <nortti> shachaf: I have [ as altgr+8
17:55:34 <ais523> 0000000 68 6d 6d 2c 20 61 6c 74 67 72 2d 65 20 69 73 20 65
17:55:36 <Vorpal> shachaf, I can do that with altgr-shift-8 and altgr-shift-9
17:55:41 <ais523> Vorpal: looks like they are both actual ASCII e's
17:55:53 <fizzie> Vorpal: It doesn't. It only has altgry stuff for Sámi and whatever.
17:55:58 <nortti> |evilliopttic_PA: suggest something bettet
17:56:00 <ais523> (apparently, letters do actually pluralise with apostrophe-s in English, which must annoy pedants a lot)
17:56:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, do you use that layout?
17:56:17 <ais523> shachaf: «» are altgr-zx for me
17:56:30 <ais523> haha, altgr-8 is [ for me too
17:56:32 <Vorpal> ais523, that works too for me.
17:56:36 <fizzie> Vorpal: Means they don't have to print out keyboards with different markings, unless they want to.
17:56:37 <ais523> even though [ is on my keyboard (not even shifted)
17:57:17 <Vorpal> ais523, ¤ is shift-4 for me. Utterly useless
17:57:28 <fizzie> Vorpal: Apparently not; this is some random Ubuntu-Finnish thing. E.g. it has ¼ as altgr-§, whereas SFS 5966 has some combining diacritic there. (It has more dead-key diacritics than the usual.)
17:57:41 <ais523> Vorpal: and why is that a useless character?
17:57:49 <ais523> I've seen it used as a metasyntactic variable for currency characters before now :)
17:58:00 <Vorpal> ais523, yes, and I never ever used it
17:58:04 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
17:58:46 <Vorpal> ` is a dead key here, it is shift-<another dead key>
17:58:49 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
17:58:57 <Vorpal> so a lot of spaces required
17:59:15 <fizzie> Oh, I use the undead variant of the Finnish keymap, to be more accurate.
17:59:35 <fizzie> It makes ´`^~¨ not be dead keys.
17:59:40 <nortti> fizzie: why are you using zombie keymap
17:59:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, I thought that was an xkb setting?
18:00:09 <fizzie> I just got in the habit; I mean, it does mean less of useless spaces.
18:00:25 <fizzie> I can always do a compose key if I want to combine a ` with something.
18:00:26 <ais523> elliott: don't play Crawl?
18:00:35 <ais523> I think that's the only 100% reliable method
18:00:51 <ais523> oh, elliott's a logreader, and I guess he wants to know the answers to the same questions you do
18:01:02 <|evilliopttic_PA> if i don't then 48 hours will pass and someone else will kill it off instead
18:01:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm how do I write é and è with compose?
18:01:21 <kmc> compose ' e / compose ` e
18:01:21 <|evilliopttic_PA> anyway i'll just wield all the disto stuff i can find and inscribe things with random letters and place nonsense map exclusions everywhere
18:01:34 <Vorpal> kmc, I guess it doesn't work when ` is a dead key...
18:01:38 <ais523> will that actually /help/?
18:02:00 <kmc> i don't know then
18:02:18 <|evilliopttic_PA> monqy once wielded a disto weapon and then got berserked by xom (or went berserk himself, I don't recall) in front of a hydra with low HP on a round-robin character
18:03:42 <fizzie> I configured this via Gnome's keyboard settings thing; apparently the "Finland" variant there is very close to the new standard, while "Finland classic" is this random old thing, but there's only "Finland classic, eliminate dead keys", not "Finland, eliminate dead keys" available, and I haven't managed to care enough to make the correct thing happen.
18:04:09 <kmc> |evilliopttic_PA: ?
18:04:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, does the new one have µ on altgr-m?
18:05:02 <olsner> I just use the deadkeys variant of the swedish layout, but do all coding in american layout
18:05:20 -!- Sgeo has joined.
18:05:21 <Vorpal> olsner, that would totally confuse me
18:05:27 <Vorpal> (the american layout that is)
18:05:29 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.21914
18:06:02 <|evilliopttic_PA> You said something along the lines of "I come in and you're talking about [Crawl], in a few weeks you'll be talking about [obscure thing]".
18:06:13 <olsner> Vorpal: it's nothing compared to trying to code with a swedish keyboard
18:06:27 <fizzie> Vorpal: Both ones have it. The new one has some shift-altgr extra quotes in the number row; the "proper" doublequotes and that « » thing.
18:06:58 <Vorpal> olsner, well, I wouldn't know where to find the keys :P
18:07:10 <Vorpal> but once you learn it, it is probably better yeah
18:07:21 <fizzie> It also has an em-dash in altgr-shift-m.
18:08:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, rather than º you mean?
18:08:07 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if figure dash is anywhere on my compose key
18:08:11 <ais523> not to mention minus sign
18:08:16 <ais523> there are so many sorts of dash…
18:08:33 <ais523> Æ’©ÐEªŊĦıJ&ŁºNØÞΩ®§Ŧ↑‘Ł>¥<
18:08:37 <ais523> ^ shifted altgr alphabet
18:09:06 <Vorpal> why is shift-altgr-s §? I have that non-shifted...
18:09:09 <olsner> Vorpal: I had to learn most of the american layout before that anyway, e.g. when using a computer before loading the swedish layout, or without it being properly configured
18:09:17 <fizzie> Vorpal: According to the keymap viewer, it didn't have anything in altgr-shift-m. º is in altgr-shift-5 here.
18:09:20 <olsner> so it wasn't a big switch to start doing all coding in american
18:09:27 <ais523> because altgr-s is ß, which is probably more likely for a Brit to type
18:09:36 <ais523> as it's a letter in German
18:09:39 <Vorpal> olsner, that rarely happens nowdays, unless you are installing really obscure distros. :P
18:09:50 <Vorpal> olsner, usually it is enough to know where / is
18:10:04 <ais523> I need to know the US layout because public terminals are set to it sometimes
18:10:04 <fizzie> I'm not sure I could really do the US keymap any longer, but I certainly did use to know it well enough.
18:10:14 <Vorpal> ais523, yes but on my layout I mean
18:10:37 <olsner> Vorpal: well, *nowadays* that's not an issue because I actively use the us layout anyway
18:11:16 <Vorpal> speaking of US layout, don't they have that horrible half-height enter key?
18:11:41 <olsner> yes, but your keyboard doesn't actually change when setting the layout
18:11:48 <olsner> so you'll keep your full-height enter key
18:11:49 <ais523> Vorpal: not always, just sometimes
18:11:58 <Vorpal> olsner, I was talking about in general
18:12:33 <ais523> keyboard layouts might be standardised, but keyboard /shapes/ aren't
18:12:57 <Vorpal> well, the standard full size PC keyboard is
18:13:13 <Vorpal> laptop keyboards not so much
18:13:45 <fizzie> I'm sure there's a physical layout in *some* standard, but that doesn't mean it'd be any standard that mattered.
18:14:28 <fizzie> They kept messing with the home/end/del/insert/pageup/down area recently, after all.
18:14:37 <zzo38> The backslash key tends to be differ on different keyboards.
18:14:39 <Sgeo> <3 the Trine OST
18:14:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah, that is quite horrible
18:14:47 <Vorpal> Sgeo, trine 1 or trine 2?
18:14:47 <fizzie> There's the double-sized... is it ins or del?
18:14:50 <zzo38> I prefer the backslash to the right of the quotation mark
18:14:56 <Sgeo> Vorpal, um... did not know there's a Trine 2
18:14:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, what? I haven't seen that variant
18:15:05 <fizzie> And then ones that turn it from 3x2 to 2x3.
18:15:16 <Sgeo> Vorpal, and I don't think I like the game that much
18:15:20 <Sgeo> But the music's gorgeous.
18:15:30 <Vorpal> Sgeo, the game is gorgeous and really fun
18:15:45 <fizzie> Vorpal: One of them is double-sized, and the other moved up to the "useless" break/printscr/whatever row.
18:15:50 <Vorpal> only complaint I have about trine 2 is that the story was a bit meh
18:16:01 <zzo38> Everything else should just keep the Model M layout.
18:16:17 <Vorpal> but since it is a physics based puzzle platformer, the story isn't really the focus
18:16:20 <olsner> model m's come in several layouts though
18:16:21 <zzo38> If you do not need separate arrow keys from the numpad, use the original PC layout, but with indicator lights on.
18:16:50 <Vorpal> printscr is quite useful
18:16:52 <olsner> at least the enter key size and those 102/103/104 key variants vary between model ms
18:17:29 <Vorpal> |evilliopttic_PA, oh come on, I use del,home,ende,pgup,pgdown a lot
18:17:47 <Vorpal> and prtsc I use rarely
18:17:49 <|evilliopttic_PA> use a keyboard without them for a while yuo'l become much happier
18:17:58 <Vorpal> I actually used scroll lock a few times
18:18:05 <fizzie> Hey, they've released some new Optimus keyboard models. There's an "Optimus Popularis" that looks like a compact-sized variant of the Maximus.
18:18:19 <zzo38> I have used all the keys on the keyboard a lot
18:18:24 <fizzie> It probably still costs absurd units of money.
18:19:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, what is the optimus keyboard?
18:20:00 <fizzie> Vorpal: That thing where each key is a small OLED display.
18:21:39 <ion> I’d love to have one of these, but they frigging cost like 1000 €.
18:21:44 <ion> http://youtu.be/_rzFqEqzhmA
18:21:54 <fizzie> One of their sample pictures is showing a keyboard where enter/shift are Kerplunk and Boom.
18:22:39 <Vorpal> ion, I tried using a MS natural keyboard thingy once, was awkward
18:22:47 <Vorpal> I'm sure it is great once you get used to it
18:25:44 <fizzie> |evilliopttic_PA: Perhaps you should use a custom keyboard made out of a Power Glove.
18:26:30 <|evilliopttic_PA> 19:26 <Sequell> 58. vorpal the Firebug (L8 DrFE), worshipper of Vehumet, slain by a killer bee on D:7 on 2008-02-06, with 1385 points after 9149 turns and 3:24:37.
18:28:12 <Vorpal> |evilliopttic_PA, I don't *play* crawl
18:30:58 <|evilliopttic_PA> ion: The top comments on that video are even worse than average.
18:31:35 <|evilliopttic_PA> Funny.. Such a "modern" and "ergonomic" keyboard still uses the QWERTY layout. Thousands of English words can be typed with only the left hand. Only a few hundred with the right. If you're typing in English, and using QWERTY, then not only will it slow you down, it will fatigue your left hand a hundred times more than your right hand.
18:31:45 <|evilliopttic_PA> do they not realise it is literally irrelevant what layout it is
18:31:55 <Vorpal> uh I don't get the point of ['] in Forth?
18:32:02 <Vorpal> how does it differ from '?
18:32:22 <ion> Btw, i love how the image of the “traditional keyboard layout” in that video is the Amiga layout, complete with the Amiga keys near Space.
18:33:31 <Vorpal> ion, also one connector on the back of the datahand looked like a serial cable to me
18:37:27 <fizzie> Vorpal: "If you want the execution token of word, write ['] word in compiled code and ' word in interpreted code." ['] parses the name at compilation time, and then compiles to something that pushes the xt. Or some-such.
18:38:26 -!- TeruFSX has joined.
18:39:27 <Sgeo> I'll take you this way that way which way what way oh way my way her way his way their way its way some way any way
18:40:04 <Sgeo> Lyrics from a song
18:40:21 <Vorpal> seems like quite stupid lyrics to me
18:40:50 <Vorpal> they don't really mean anything sensible
18:41:24 <Sgeo> I see a way in which they could
18:41:35 <Sgeo> (Especially in context of the rest of the song)
18:42:12 -!- |evilliopttic_PA has left.
18:42:44 <Sgeo> I think "take" is being used in a sexual sense
18:43:04 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
18:45:51 -!- nortti_ has joined.
18:49:23 <nortti_> Phantom__Hoover: by the way why did you ask me about zsh
18:50:29 <olsner> the esoteric song contest was over days ago
18:51:12 <fizzie> I quote lyrics every now and then.
18:51:17 <fizzie> 2011-12-18 00:34:41 <fizzie> "Too many fingers / have I got in my hand / I think there happened a creature / an alien creature" -- paraphrasing some Finnish song lyrics.
18:53:17 <ion> What song?
18:53:46 -!- monqy has joined.
18:54:57 -!- |evilliopttic_PA has joined.
18:55:37 <HackEgo> 2007-05-02.txt:02:04:50: <GregorR> * pikhq has changed the topic to: - the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esolangs.org/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or ttp://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - Pastebin: http://pastebin.ca/ | 09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0
18:55:50 <HackEgo> 2006-08-26.txt:20:21:18: -!- GregorR changed the topic of #esoteric to: the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - for brainfuck-specific discussion,
18:56:02 <fizzie> ion: The one that goes "Liikaa sormia / ompi mulla kädessä / taisi käydä olio / avaruusolio."
18:56:03 -!- |evilliopttic_PA has set topic: the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - for brainfuck-specific discussion,.
18:56:33 <fizzie> ion: http://www.byterapers.scene.org/scene-music.htm "Monta sormee?"
18:57:23 <monqy> i'm bad at guessing, but it looks awful
18:57:24 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 4 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
18:57:56 <oerjan> |evilliopttic_PA: not bad enough; several of the links may still work
18:58:46 -!- |evilliopttic_PA has set topic: It is 2005 and there is time to be the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment. http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
19:01:09 <ion> fizzie: File not found :-(
19:02:52 <HackEgo> Linux umlbox 3.0.8-umlbox #2 Sun Nov 13 21:30:28 UTC 2011 x86_64 GNU/Linux
19:09:31 <zzo38> Have you made any file for Internet Quiz Engine yet?
19:12:58 <nortti_> what browsers do you (plural) use?
19:13:06 <fizzie> ion: Oh noes, their FTP seems to have borken. Anyway, http://amp.dascene.net/detail.php?detail=modules&view=6513 claims to have it also, but both opencubicplayer and mikmod barf on the XM file, even though 'file' says it looks just fine.
19:16:59 <fizzie> Hey, I have a mirror of my own.
19:17:22 <fizzie> Let me just dump that somewhere.
19:19:18 <oerjan> just don't break it. 7 years bad luck, you see.
19:19:46 <fizzie> ion: http://zem.fi/tmp/byterapers-modules-humorouscollection/
19:21:17 <fizzie> oerjan: If you make, say, six copies of a mirror, and then break the copies, does it count as 42 years of bad luck, or don't the copies count since in the grand scheme of things you haven't decreased the number of mirrors?
19:23:31 <oerjan> after you break the first mirror, bad luck will ensure the others count for at least 7 years each.
19:23:45 <ion> fizzie: Thankes.
19:39:01 <zzo38> nortti_: For web browser I use my own system which is Mozilla-based, although I prefer the command-line
19:39:37 <nortti_> zzo38: what kind of command line
19:39:58 <zzo38> UNIX command-line is best, although I use the Windows command-line as well.
19:40:48 <nortti_> I like unix command line, TWENEX command like is also pretty good and DOS is ok
19:43:05 <zzo38> At one place I sometimes volunteer at, I gave them a computer, and it has FreeDOS. I programmed it for them, in Forth.
19:44:21 <nortti_> zzo38: for what purpose did you program it to them?
19:44:27 <zzo38> However, there is still no printer. Do you know if there is any driver for FreeDOS to cause outputs to LPT1 and so on to be redirected to the USB port? In case, it is USB printer, but it still has to be PCL
19:44:45 <zzo38> nortti_: It is a database program
19:45:03 <nortti_> olsner: well I have used DOS since I was 7 so it has kinda grown on me
19:45:43 <zzo38> Also do you know what TeX distribution works on FreeDOS and includes a DVI->PCL program?
19:46:27 <zzo38> I don't need PostScript, PDF, e-TeX, and so on; I only use Plain TeX.
19:49:13 <zzo38> The computer that I gave to them, I also got it for free myself too, from FreeGeek; it came with Ubuntu and included CRT, keyboard, mouse, speakers. I didn't take the mouse and speakers and the FreeGeek also let me use their blank DVDs to copy FreeDOS so I could install FreeDOS on there too, and then I installed BBL/Abundance.
19:51:05 <zzo38> The license for BBL/Abundance says you can do absolutely anything you want, except military use.
19:51:08 <nortti_> that remind me how I uses FreeDOS as my main os for around a month
19:58:37 <zzo38> Does any terminal emulator allow you to push scroll lock to prevent the screen from automatically scrolling and make the arrow keys scroll the window?
19:59:17 <nortti_> I think xterm does but I am not surr
20:00:33 <fizzie> I used to use the 4dos command line, it was quite snazzy compared to plain DOS.
20:00:59 <fizzie> All those pretty coloured directory listings and tab-completions and whatnots.
20:01:27 <zzo38> Windows now has tab-completion but they didn't add those other things
20:01:43 <fizzie> Also if I recall correctly 4dos managed to use less memory than command.com.
20:02:25 <zzo38> Also, the Windows tab-completion works differently from the UNIX tab-completion.
20:03:50 <fizzie> 4dos had some amount of customization in tab completion, you could list what sort of extensions which command accepted.
20:04:03 <fizzie> 4dos.ini: FileCompletion=cd:dirs; unzip:arj zip zoo exe lzh dirs; pkunzip:zip exe dirs; arj:arj a?? exe dirs; lha:lzh exe dirs; zoo:zoo exe dirs
20:05:16 <fizzie> I also seem to have a colordir setting which says "doc txt me 1st" are text documents; the latter presumably for read.me and readme.1st files.
20:08:40 <fizzie> Oh, this DOS directory is such a mess of mess. There are different console fonts ans whatever here; those .com things that you run and they replace the current font.
20:09:13 <fizzie> (I had some trouble figuring out what "light.com" and "broadway.com" were, based on the name.)
20:10:06 <zzo38> Files with .DOC may sometimes be Microsoft Word documents, although sometimes they are plain text. Although READ.ME and README.1ST are nearly always plain texts, and FILE_ID.DIZ may be a short description of the downloaded archive in plain text format.
20:10:07 -!- |evilliopttic_PA has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:10:49 <fizzie> There once was a BBS system that put their own "downloaded from" ad into each .zip file, in a file called "KALAA&LI.HAA".
20:11:05 <fizzie> That's Finnish for, basically, "FISH&ME.AT".
20:12:39 <zzo38> They really shouldn't modify the ZIP files; they should only read them to check for the existence of a FILE_ID.DIZ file (in the root directory of the ZIP), in my opinion.
20:13:13 <zzo38> They should also check for a ZIP comment and a password.
20:31:19 <zzo38> I have read that booster packs for some card games have a small chance to be entirely rares. TeXnicard supports this using the "n" flag in a deck list. TeXnicard also supports selecting without replacement ("k" flag) and requiring unique selections ("u" flag), but I do not know if any card games use these. Do you know if they do or not?
20:44:34 <zzo38> Do you like arithmetic IF?
20:44:46 -!- Case1 has left.
20:46:27 <zzo38> Arithmetic IF, not arimetric IF.
20:47:37 -!- coppro has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
20:48:33 <ais523> zzo38: I prefer short-circuiting if, it's more generally useful
20:48:45 <ais523> I prefer call-by-name semantics to call-by-value generally anyway…
20:49:34 <zzo38> This is one possible implementation of a stack-based arithmetic if in C: register_value v=stack_ptr[-3]; int n=v.number; n=-(n<0?2:!n); stack_ptr[-3]=stack_ptr[n]; stack_ptr[n]=v; stack_drop(); stack_drop(); stack_drop();
20:49:41 -!- coppro has joined.
20:50:01 <zzo38> ais523: That is useful, too, yes.
20:51:02 <zzo38> If you are wondering why this algorithm is so strange, I can tell you, the reason it is like this is for garbage collection to work.
20:55:16 <zzo38> dc doesn't use this but I think the design of dc would work better with the arithmetic if.
20:59:55 -!- MDuck has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
21:10:39 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
21:21:54 <zzo38> nortti_: It does have conditional commands, but they aren't very good in my opinion; arithmetic if would be a better design to fit with the rest of dc.
21:23:32 <Gregor> dc is Turing complete.
21:23:53 <zzo38> Gregor: Yes, I think you are correct.
21:23:55 <Gregor> Its conditional execution is by conditional macro invocation.
21:24:05 <zzo38> Yes that is also correct.
21:24:33 <nortti_> it has? I didn't know that
21:24:40 <zzo38> It has 256 arrays and 256 scalar registers.
21:24:48 <zzo38> As well as a stack.
21:25:09 <Gregor> They're not really arrays, they're only accessible as stacks.
21:25:17 <Gregor> At least not by classic dc.
21:26:34 <zzo38> dc also has bignums.
21:30:02 -!- itidus20 has joined.
21:33:30 -!- itidus21 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
21:34:48 <zzo38> What kind of image manipulations commands should I include in TeXnicard? Some of my ideas include: convolve, blur, paste, blend, mask, ...
21:37:30 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:38:44 -!- Sgeo has joined.
21:39:12 <fizzie> Gregor: The : and ; commands that work on arrays are at least in Unix V7 dc man page; not classic enough for you?
21:40:05 -!- coppro has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
21:40:16 <zzo38> What I already have is that, there are ten bitmaps and ten graymaps which can be manipulated; TeXnicard never works directly on color pictures (the channels will be combined/separated upon export/import).
21:40:40 <fizzie> (Though the indices are limited to 0..2047 in that man page, so it's not an array of arbitrary size.)
21:41:02 <Gregor> Oh, heheh, I forgot that there were numbered arrays along with the named stacks.
21:42:36 <fizzie> My current man dc has a tie between the stacks and arrays -- "Note that each stacked instance of a register has its own array associated with it. Thus 1 0:a 0Sa 2 0:a La 0;ap will print 1, because the 2 was stored in an instance of 0:a that was later popped." -- but the V7 man page mentions that not.
21:44:11 <fizzie> (So in this dc at least there's 256 stacks of arrays.)
21:45:47 -!- coppro has joined.
21:45:53 <zzo38> I have implemented the XKCD variation of Deadfish in dc. (As far as I know, this is *not* the reason why the XKCD variation was invented; I do not know the real reason)
21:47:51 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:48:25 <nortti_> hmm. could an OS be programmed in dc
21:49:43 <zzo38> dc does not support that
21:51:36 <oerjan> the xkcd variation was added by an anonymous ip which seems to belong to asiekierka
21:51:54 <oerjan> (based on signing on talk pages)
21:52:05 <zzo38> What reason was it added?
21:52:23 <oerjan> no reason given, just "XKCD!"
21:53:03 <zzo38> Was I the first one to use it? Was I the only one to use it?
21:53:11 <oerjan> anyway i just checked it as i remembered it being an anon ip, i wasn't expecting to find it was someone i knew from here
21:53:23 <oerjan> zzo38: i don't recall anyone else implementing it
21:53:41 <zzo38> Someone did say before it belong to asiekierka, but that still doesn't tell what reason it was added.
21:54:35 <nortti_> zzo38: why did you implement the xkcd variation instead of the normal one?
21:55:09 <zzo38> nortti_: Do you know dc? Maybe then you might understand. Look at the implementation code, and then you might understand, too.
21:55:36 <zzo38> It has to do with limitations in dc.
21:57:24 <nortti_> ouch. that code is definitely write only
21:59:19 <zzo38> Are you sure? It should be understandable if you can understand a dc code
22:02:26 <nortti_> I know it is understandable but so is all so called writr only code I have seen before
22:03:13 <oerjan> the channel logs show asiekierka was here that day and the previous, seemingly generally annoying people; he mentioned deadfish but not in connection with xkcd.
22:04:02 <oerjan> anyway i think the dc implementation is good enough reason for the xkcd version to exist.
22:05:53 <HackEgo> 2008-10-11.txt:07:02:22: <asiekierka> What xkcd style comic?
22:06:02 <oerjan> `pastelogs <asie.*xkcd
22:06:09 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.2923
22:06:51 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes I think so too, but that probably wasn't the reason the xkcd version was made up at first.
22:07:21 <oerjan> he doesn't seem to have mentioned xkcd since that day.
22:07:44 <oerjan> (or anywhere close to it)
22:08:28 <oerjan> zzo38: well given his general behavior then, i expect it was just a silly joke
22:09:38 <itidus20> the internet probably has cycles within it which correspond to our planetary timezones, days, seasons and years
22:10:11 <itidus20> ok correspond might be the wrong word
22:10:58 <itidus20> there is probably big cycles .. i guess that the popularity of a website is involved
22:13:46 <zzo38> Planetary timezones? Do you mean the rate of rotation of all the planets?
22:16:12 -!- Madoka-Kaname has joined.
22:16:13 -!- Madoka-Kaname has quit (Changing host).
22:16:13 -!- Madoka-Kaname has joined.
22:16:21 -!- Madoka-Kaname has left.
22:16:28 <itidus20> whatever humans (and other life for that matter) does there is always cycles which constrain their activities. for example, sleeping at night due to the lack of light and sunlight. crops growing according to seasons. seasons being predictable in an order
22:17:19 <zzo38> Well, yes, I know that. The sun, moon, Earth's orbit, and Earth's rotation do affect all of these things.
22:18:00 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
22:18:07 <itidus20> and i am wondering if such things lurk inherently in the internet, or if it is one monotonous industrial machine without such patterns
22:19:14 <zzo38> I have also heard that the human cycle of birth is more in the spring, but I do not know much about that.
22:19:34 <itidus20> maybe because it is manmade it doesn't have those cycles
22:20:10 <oerjan> i read today in the newspaper that women are most amorous in spring, while men are in late summer
22:20:21 -!- nooga has joined.
22:20:46 <zzo38> Even manmade things can have those cycles if they put them in; I think I read somewhere that some companies use lunar payment
22:20:47 <Sgeo> I've decided to install Enigma
22:20:51 <oerjan> it probably varies by climate though; this was a norwegian survey
22:20:51 <Sgeo> If it's not arleady installed
22:20:51 <kmc> itidus20 you sound like the voiceover intro to that tv show _Touch_
22:21:26 <zzo38> oerjan: Then, considering the different population of different places on the Earth, which sun sign would be more common for a person to be born during, and how much?
22:21:32 <itidus20> zzo38: but the very idea of artificially constraining ourselves is so weird..
22:21:53 <zzo38> itidus20: You do it if you have not a better way to decide
22:22:04 <oerjan> zzo38: i don't know, but someone has probably done the statistics
22:22:32 <itidus20> data-copying is the area i have in mind that we have to constrain ourselves, because data-copying is easy for us if we choose to do it
22:23:15 <itidus20> so many plugs and connectors consist mostly in how incompatible they can be
22:24:37 <Sgeo> It's in there!
22:24:42 <zzo38> itidus20: But that has nothing to do with the moon, isn't it?
22:25:30 <itidus20> zzo38: the good thing about the constraints the moon places on us is we simply have no choice.. we don't choose to be constrained by the sun and moon.. we just are
22:27:28 <zzo38> itidus20: Well, yes; with the sun and moon, they do affect us much. The other planets in the solar system do not significantly affect things on the Earth (although, I have read that there are some effects, apparently sometimes Jupiter prevents asteroids from destroying the Earth)
22:28:44 <ais523> itidus20: Jupiter is a much bigger target than the Earth is, both in terms of size and gravity well
22:29:02 <ais523> so celestial bodies which are on the sort of orbit that might hit things in the ecliptic are much more likely to hit Jupiter than Earth
22:30:34 <itidus20> i blame the coffee for this set of recent posts i just made
22:33:23 -!- nortti_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:43:50 <zzo38> Make a quiz file for Internet Quiz Engine, which is based on esoteric programming and the people in this channel, and then put it in the topic message
22:46:36 -!- rszeno has joined.
22:47:02 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
22:51:43 <rszeno> a turing machine with one tape limited on one side allways start from first cell, right?
22:53:26 <ais523> I don't think it /has/ to, but people pretty much assume that it does
22:53:33 <oerjan> well unless someone needs it not to do so, but then they'd presumably note that it doesn't
22:53:35 <ais523> it starts from the start by convention
22:53:47 <ais523> hmm, now I'm tempted to make a pointless BF derivative that starts from the second cell
22:53:52 <ais523> and is otherwise the same as stock BF
22:53:57 <ais523> (we get a lot of pointless BF derivatives around here)
22:54:46 <rszeno> is any result which say that the two machine are equivalent?
22:55:15 <ais523> equivalent in what sense? computational capability, obviously
22:55:16 <oerjan> i'm reminded how you usually assume a stack language starts with an empty stack, but if you assume the stack is _not_ empty you can do things like that : drop dup dup - - ; definition mentioned yesterday
22:55:20 <rszeno> one which start to a random position and the one which start from first state
22:55:28 <ais523> ability to simulate, obviously if you're allowed extra colors/states
22:55:48 <ais523> if it's a random position rather than a specific non-first position, then they're equivalent because you can't move left anyway because you can't guarantee there's anything there
22:55:56 <ion> http://img2.demotywatoryfb.pl/uploads/201205/1338074103_by_admin_inner.gif
22:58:44 -!- itidus22 has joined.
22:59:25 -!- itidus22 has changed nick to itidus21.
22:59:27 <rszeno> i try to extend thue, and when i search for lhs in the input i get a list of possible positions
23:00:14 <rszeno> this make me think to start rewriting to a random position not first one
23:02:35 -!- itidus20 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
23:02:42 <rszeno> rewriting result could be different in many cases, depend of the rule set
23:06:28 <rszeno> when i say equivalence i'm thinking to simulation
23:07:34 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
23:08:20 <rszeno> mainly, same results after runing
23:12:08 -!- Patashu has joined.
23:17:06 <ais523> oh, thue is rather different to a TM in the way it operates
23:17:35 <ais523> replace-at-random Thue (how it's defined) isn't more powerful than replace-from-the-left Thue (apart from being able to produce true randomness), but it is rather different in nature
23:19:33 <zzo38> Is there WEB-IDE, where, for example, you can click a chunk name to move the cursor to its definition, push a key for the table of contents, and so on?
23:22:22 <rszeno> ais523, i'm looking for the simplest solution. if the replace-from-the-left will give same result i will prefere this one
23:22:59 -!- PatashuXantheres has joined.
23:23:09 <ais523> rszeno: well, it's a different language; you could convert a program written for one to run in the other, but it might be slower or more complicated
23:24:59 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
23:26:21 <rszeno> i don't know if automatic conversion from one program to another is possible, probably yes
23:27:23 <rszeno> i'm curious if can be done using combinatory logic
23:27:48 <ais523> oh, automatic conversion from any TC language to any other is always possible
23:27:54 <ais523> although sometimes (often, in fact) it's rather ugly
23:28:46 <Sgeo> ais523, Brainfuck to Jot
23:29:02 <ais523> Sgeo: meh, I wrote a P'' interp in Unlambda
23:29:18 <ais523> it just looks like an interp for a tape-based language written in a functional language
23:29:30 <ais523> and obfuscated by the lack of useful variable names, etc
23:29:41 * Sgeo was referring mostly to the I/O thing
23:30:02 <rszeno> I/O is another problem i have, :)
23:30:55 <rszeno> i need some syntax, minimal, to describe the I/O flow
23:31:36 <rszeno> i had search on esolang for ideas
23:38:47 -!- zzo38 has left.
23:39:16 <rszeno> well, i'm curios if this is a mad idea
23:40:37 <rszeno> if i have the grammar g1 for a language, P'' for example and another grammar g2 for another language, Unlambda
23:40:42 <HackEgo> "But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked. "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
23:41:57 <rszeno> conversion from g1 to g2 is given by a formal system
23:42:46 <rszeno> but a formal system can be described using grammars
23:43:35 <rszeno> the idea is to use thue for all this steps
23:45:18 <rszeno> oerjan, i'm the Cat, :)
23:46:40 -!- oerjan has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:46:40 -!- EgoBot has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:46:46 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:46:54 -!- EgoBot has joined.
23:50:11 <rszeno> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cone_%28formal_languages%29
23:51:50 <rszeno> i didn't know about this until few minutes ago
23:53:10 <rszeno> i fact i didn't know is named this way
23:53:33 <oerjan> me neither, but i recall reading about transducers
23:54:00 <Sgeo> Well, don't worry about all that, the world's ending today apparently
23:54:01 <Sgeo> http://www.the-end.com/
23:54:49 <rszeno> me too, Mateescu and Salomaa is subject learning in schools here
23:55:11 <oerjan> Sgeo: again? i've barely got over _last_ time...
23:55:42 <oerjan> i didn't learn it from a textbook though, i found it in a math encyclopedia
23:57:25 <oerjan> Sgeo: he seems to be trumpeting his theory there
23:59:33 <rszeno> will be four trumpets, i'm waiting to the 3-rd
23:59:41 <kmc> http://www.prophecysigns.com/assets/Images/chart16.jpg