00:00:35 <elliott> Is that the sequel to 2Pac?
00:09:03 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>---<++<--<++<--<++<--<(+)*20>(-)*20>(+)*15>(-)*15>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8(>[((-)*3([+{(+)*15([-{[-]}])%30}])%6>)*3((+)*3([-{(-)*25[+]}])%6>)*18](+)*2)*21
00:09:06 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_3pac: 43.4
00:09:37 <quintopia> it is now officially my highest scoring program
00:09:47 <quintopia> (thanks myndzi for the 3pass idea)
00:11:01 <elliott> shachaf: What I meant by "so" is, why should I know who Eugene Kirpichov is?
00:11:25 <quintopia> plus it switches the polarity of its clear 3 cells after the first one
00:11:36 <quintopia> plus a huge offset for later decoys
00:11:53 <shachaf> elliott: I asked about jkff, not Eugene Kirpichov.
00:12:10 <quintopia> (note to self: ask ais if this is the first program that increases its offset size the more decoys it encounters)
00:13:27 <quintopia> @ask ais523 has anyone before written a program that uses larger offsets on longer tapes?
00:13:53 <elliott> ...It might help to give more context than that.
00:14:53 <shachaf> @tell ais523 has anyone before quintopia written a program that uses larger offsets on longer tapes?
00:17:25 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>---<++<--<++<--<++<--<(+)*20>(-)*20>(+)*15>(-)*15>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8(>[((-)*3([+{(+)*15([-{[-]}])%30}])%6>)*3((+)*3([-{(-)*40[+]}])%6>)*18](+)*2)*21
00:17:27 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_3pac: 45.1
00:17:39 <quintopia> note to self: huger offsets = better :P
00:18:28 <quintopia> it now beats all of Deewiant's programs
00:18:56 <shachaf> !bfjoust hi (->->->->->++[+>->]-)*100000
00:18:59 <EgoBot> Score for shachaf_hi: 0.0
00:19:23 <shachaf> Has anyone gotten a score of 0.0 before?
00:21:38 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_shachafislame: 0.0
00:21:51 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>---<++<--<++<--<++<--<(+)*20>(-)*20>(+)*15>(-)*15>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8(>[((-)*3([+{(+)*15([-{[-]}])%30}])%6>)*3((-)*3([+{(+)*25[-]}])%6>)*3((+)*3([-{(-)*40[+]}])%6>)*15](+)*2)*21
00:21:53 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_3pac: 41.4
00:22:14 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>---<++<--<++<--<++<--<(+)*20>(-)*20>(+)*15>(-)*15>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8(>[((-)*3([+{(+)*15([-{[-]}])%30}])%6>)*3((+)*3([-{(-)*40[+]}])%6>)*18](+)*2)*21
00:22:17 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_3pac: 45.1
00:22:20 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
00:22:31 <EgoBot> Score for shachaf_oh___: 0.0
00:22:36 <shachaf> I don't even know the rules.
00:22:54 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust
00:22:56 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust_strategies
00:23:04 <quintopia> its not like there isnt a BUTTLOAD OF DOCUMENTATION :P
00:23:51 <shachaf> I don't even know how to read. :-(
00:24:02 <shachaf> If you think what I'm saying is a reponse to something you're saying, you're wrong.
00:25:43 <elliott> @tell david_werecat Sorry, EgoBot actually uses gearlance.c, not chainlance.c (in the same repository; http://git.zem.fi/chainlance/blob/HEAD:/gearlance.c).
00:30:33 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>---<++<--<++<--<++<--<(+)*20>(-)*20>(+)*15>(-)*15>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8(>[((-)*3([+{(+)*25[-]}])%6>)*3((+)*3([-{(-)*40[+]}])%6>)*18](+)*2)*21
00:30:36 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_3pac: 48.5
00:31:28 <quintopia> lol i made it to beat skyscraper and it doesn't even do that anymore :P
00:34:08 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>---<++<--<++<--<++<--<(+)*20>(-)*20>(+)*15>(-)*15>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8(>[((-)*3([+{(+)*25[-][+]}])%6>)*3((+)*3([-{(-)*40[+][-]}])%6>)*18](+)*2)*21
00:34:11 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_3pac: 49.1
00:41:41 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:42:20 -!- Nisstyre has joined.
01:08:48 <elliott> shachaf: How do I ascend NetHack?
01:09:00 <monqy> nethack sounds boring to ascend
01:09:07 <shachaf> elliott: Sacrifice the Amulet of Yendor to Anhur.
01:09:15 <elliott> shachaf: Which one is Anhur?
01:09:34 <elliott> shachaf: Which is the one dwarf valkyries start with?
01:09:36 <monqy> but for which class
01:09:36 <shachaf> You want to be chaotic if you can manage it.
01:09:55 <elliott> shachaf: Yes it is? I think.
01:09:57 <shachaf> Val and Sam can't be chaotic. :-(
01:10:07 <elliott> monqy: You have to do it sometime in your life.
01:10:27 <monqy> it sounds so boring
01:10:35 <monqy> i just don't want to bother
01:10:46 <monqy> and so many stupid things i'd have to do
01:11:14 <elliott> monqy: But have you *seen* the Astral Plane?
01:11:36 <monqy> it looks like a lot of clearing messages
01:11:52 <shachaf> The Astral Plane: MAXIMUM FUN
01:11:54 <elliott> You could use an interface that has multiple lines of messages.
01:12:15 <monqy> is the astral plane actually fun
01:12:22 <elliott> shachaf: Is the Astral Plane actually fun?
01:12:31 <elliott> monqy: It *looks* fun, and ais523 says it's the best level of NetHack.
01:12:41 <shachaf> elliott: Well, I've died there.
01:12:51 <shachaf> Which means there's risk! Which makes it fun.
01:12:57 <monqy> i don't trust ais' roguelike opinions; he likes identification
01:13:08 <elliott> monqy: Well, he clarified that a bit.
01:13:19 <elliott> (He hates Crawl's identification system.)
01:13:27 <elliott> (NetHack's identification system is admittedly much less degenerate.)
01:13:28 <monqy> but he likes nethack's, no?
01:13:38 <elliott> (I still don't like it. But it's much better than Crawl's.)
01:13:46 <elliott> (FWIW, IIRC dtsund thinks the same.)
01:13:58 <shachaf> elliott: Did you know: If you #name-no a scroll labeled "VELOX NEB" "VELOX NEB", you have a 100% chance of writing it with a magic marker?
01:14:05 <shachaf> I mean, writing the thing it identifies to, if you try.
01:14:11 <shachaf> Even if you don't identify it.
01:14:32 <shachaf> Ask ais523 -- Interhack supports it, after all.
01:14:36 <elliott> shachaf: I didn't understand what you said.
01:14:43 <elliott> Also, ais523 never developed Interhack AFAIK.
01:14:49 <shachaf> elliott: You know about #name-no?
01:15:07 <elliott> Yes. It names objects and stuff.
01:15:27 <shachaf> Right. If you say "no", it names a type of object, instead of a specific one.
01:15:36 <shachaf> So you can name "VELOX NEB" "maybe scare monster??"
01:15:44 <shachaf> Like { or \ or whatever it is in Crawl.
01:15:55 <elliott> I... think you mean inscription.
01:15:56 <monqy> crawl doesn't have naming a type of object
01:16:09 <shachaf> Anyway, Crawl isn't the point here.
01:16:10 <monqy> { is inscription but
01:16:24 <monqy> inscription doesn't apply to a whole type of item
01:16:34 * shachaf , knower of more Crawl keybindings than elliott
01:16:55 <shachaf> So if you #name-no a scroll labeled "VELOX NEB" "VELOX NEB", you'd think it wouldn't do anything useful, right?
01:17:02 <elliott> shachaf: Anyway, how do I get past the point where I suicide before finding the entrance to the Mines or Sokoban because I'm bored as hell?
01:17:14 <elliott> (Go on before answering that.)
01:17:18 <shachaf> elliott: You could do the mines first.
01:17:25 <shachaf> elliott: So let's say VELOX NEB is a scroll of wishing.
01:17:43 <shachaf> Now, if you attempt to write "a scroll of wishing" with a magic marker, you'll always succeed!
01:17:56 <shachaf> Because it thinks you "know" wishing, because you #named-no a scroll of wishing earlier!
01:18:22 <elliott> Anyway, how the hell can I do Mines before finding the entrance to Mines?
01:18:32 <shachaf> The mines are always on level 2/3/4.
01:18:38 <shachaf> Which is earlier than Sokoban.
01:18:39 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*15<(+)*15<(-)*20<(+)*40>(-)*20>(+)*15>(-)*15>>>>>(>[((-)*3([+{(+)*25[-][+]}])%6>)*3((+)*3([-{(-)*40[+][-]}])%6>)*18](+)*2)*21
01:18:42 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_3pac: 55.3
01:19:03 <shachaf> elliott: I find early Crawl more boring than early NetHack.
01:19:11 <monqy> early crawl is awful too
01:19:20 <shachaf> elliott: Anyway, you could play pacifist. That's not boring, right?
01:19:25 <elliott> 02:19 <shachaf> elliott: I find early Crawl more boring than early NetHack.
01:19:29 <elliott> But you know what early Crawl has?
01:19:42 <shachaf> But even with o I find it more boring.
01:19:44 <elliott> (I know NetHack 4 has autoexplore. NetHack 4 is not yet playable.)
01:19:47 <coppro> shachaf: that sounds like a bug that ought to be fixed.
01:19:50 <shachaf> Maybe because it lasts for so much longer.
01:19:51 <coppro> elliott: it is totally playable
01:19:53 <elliott> coppro: Of course it's a bug.
01:19:55 <monqy> shachaf: do you hit o and tab fast enough
01:19:57 <shachaf> coppro: Tell ais523 about it!
01:20:02 <elliott> coppro: It is not, I tried it a while ago; it's insufficiently polished.
01:20:06 <elliott> (I was talking to ais523 at the time.)
01:20:12 <monqy> don't play desu wow
01:20:13 <elliott> shachaf: And OK, but it's a boringness I can stand.
01:20:17 <elliott> And don't play Su if you don't want to be bored.
01:20:18 <coppro> elliott:where in logs?
01:20:26 <monqy> desu is just asking to be bored
01:20:36 <shachaf> That's why I don't play Crawl!
01:20:38 <elliott> (By "stand", I mean "phase out".)
01:21:05 <elliott> (The joke is that that's <bold>physically impossible</bold>.)
01:21:28 <elliott> Mountain Dwarf Fighter, the most popular combo. The joke is that Mountain Dwarves don't exist any more.
01:21:35 <elliott> Now everyone plays MiFi instead!
01:21:48 <elliott> coppro: Most of the complaints were trivial interface stuff ais523 said he'd fix.
01:22:00 <monqy> Sgeo: joke's it's Dg
01:22:15 <elliott> shachaf: Minotaur Fighter.
01:22:31 <elliott> coppro: But it also feels weird in a way NetHack doesn't that I can't quite put my finger on.
01:22:36 <monqy> Sgeo: i think there's still some DgBe in sequell too
01:22:36 <elliott> NetHack feels weird too, after so much Crawl.
01:22:48 <elliott> 02:22 <Sequell> 2. rob the Ducker (L2 DGBe), killed by the fiery rage of Trog on D:1 on 2008-10-05, with 96 points after 840 turns and 0:03:31.
01:22:50 <monqy> Sgeo: they were back from when Dg was DG
01:22:55 <elliott> I guess Trog doesn't like Demigods.
01:22:57 <coppro> elliott: that's normal for roguelikes
01:23:05 <elliott> 02:23 <Sequell> 1. test the Chopper (L1 DGBe), worshipper of Trog, mangled by an orc (a +0,+0 orcish club) on D:1 on 2008-05-27, with 63 points after 386 turns and 0:07:26.
01:23:11 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*15<(+)*15<(-)*20<(+)*40>(-)*20>(+)*15>(-)*15>>>>>(>[((-)*3([+{(+)*40[-][+]}])%6>)*3((+)*3([-{(-)*40[+][-]}])%6>)*18](+)*2)*21
01:23:13 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_3pac: 56.7
01:23:18 <coppro> elliott: going from one to another does feel weird
01:23:23 <Sgeo> How does DGBe exist?
01:23:27 <elliott> coppro: Anyway, I'd rather play NetHack than NetHack 4, because I have to win NetHack sometime in my life, but I don't have to win NetHack 4 sometime in my life.
01:23:37 <coppro> When I go back to ADOM after NetHAck, I invariably am insufficiently afraid of doors
01:23:37 <elliott> 02:23 <Sequell> 2. [cv=0.5-a] rob the Ducker (L2 DGBe), killed by the fiery rage of Trog on D:1 on 2008-10-05, with 96 points after 840 turns and 0:03:31.
01:23:48 <shachaf> elliott: What if I watch you play NetHack?
01:23:59 <elliott> Sgeo: ??syllogism[2] exists for the same reason, presumably.
01:24:00 <monqy> I've also been thoroughly convinced I don't want to play adom
01:24:04 <elliott> shachaf: Sure. Will you offer HELPFUL ADVICE?
01:24:06 <Sgeo> What's the "reason"?
01:24:24 <shachaf> elliott: HELPFUL ADVICE: Scrolls of mail actually take a turn to read in NetHack!
01:24:42 <elliott> 02:24 <Sequell> One game for * (dg god!=): DGBe
01:25:07 <elliott> shachaf: Anyway, what's the best server in Europe?
01:25:11 <elliott> NAO lags a bit too much for me.
01:25:15 <shachaf> Real programmers play on NAO.
01:25:26 <elliott> coppro: I played ADOM for five minutes. I don't want to play ADOM any more.
01:25:27 <shachaf> Like that one patch that...
01:25:37 <shachaf> elliott: That just means you have to think more about your moves.
01:25:50 <monqy> what makes you think you have to ascend nethack, anyway
01:25:53 <elliott> monqy: Tell shachaf why lag matters even in turn-based games.
01:25:56 <shachaf> elliott: (NAO lagged for me too when I was on your continent.)
01:26:03 <shachaf> (By your continent I mean Asia.)
01:26:08 <monqy> shachaf: lag matters even in turn-based games.
01:26:13 <elliott> Asia is indeed my continent.
01:26:32 <elliott> shachaf: Anyway, OK, I'll try NAO.
01:26:38 <Sgeo> Why are Europe and Asia considered different continents?
01:26:40 <elliott> shachaf: What char should I play?
01:26:49 <shachaf> Sgeo: Europe isn't a continent. It's just a peninsula.
01:26:51 <elliott> Sgeo: Because "continent" doesn't mean anything.
01:26:57 <shachaf> elliott: That depends. You want it to be easy, right?
01:27:01 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasia#Overview
01:27:11 <elliott> shachaf: I want to have fun, preferably early on.
01:27:18 <elliott> But I'd also like something not impossible to ascend for a beginner.
01:27:25 <shachaf> elliott: Anyway, play either Val/Sam for a meleer or Wiz for a magic user.
01:27:32 <elliott> i.e. I want to play with the intention of winning, but not be bored out of my skull.
01:27:36 <coppro> elliott: 'twas my first roguelike
01:27:37 <elliott> shachaf: I played Val. It was boring.
01:27:41 <coppro> elliott: it's still bloody hard
01:27:51 <elliott> shachaf: That's not helpful. :(
01:27:58 <elliott> When do they get non-boring?
01:28:12 <elliott> shachaf: I might play a wizard.
01:28:17 <elliott> shachaf: But I've never cast a single spell in NetHack.
01:28:24 <Sgeo> Today I Learned that "antiquity" is an actual historical period and not just a vague reference to the past
01:28:36 <shachaf> elliott: In the late game wizards can get by pretty well with melee.
01:28:48 <shachaf> Well, they're not *that* bad.
01:28:58 <shachaf> They become significantly better if you sacrifice for Magicbane?
01:29:05 <elliott> shachaf: Can NAO be accessed via ssh?
01:29:22 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasia#Overview linked to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_antiquity
01:29:47 <elliott> shachaf: How do I access NAO?
01:30:39 <elliott> Aww, there is already an "elliott".
01:30:53 <elliott> No. Well, he doesn't have my password.
01:30:56 <shachaf> elliott: Wait, haven't I seen you play NetHack before?
01:30:56 <elliott> And he's on the high scores list.
01:31:01 <monqy> see I tried logging on as squarelos and there wasn't a squarelos but then I tried monqy and it worked
01:31:09 <Sgeo> Pretty sure elliott's played before
01:31:10 <shachaf> Maybe it was on termcast or something.
01:31:12 <elliott> monqy: Oh, are you playing too?
01:31:17 <Sgeo> People were helping elliott play
01:31:21 <elliott> shachaf: By the way, can I skip Sokoban?
01:31:22 <monqy> elliott: i'm just here to send you mail
01:31:23 <Sgeo> He angered a shopkeeper I think
01:31:27 <shachaf> http://alt.org/nethack/plr.php?player=ehird
01:31:30 <elliott> Sgeo: No, I angered the Kops.
01:31:35 <elliott> Angering a shopkeeper was part of the escape plan.
01:31:38 <shachaf> elliott: There's a bag of holding in Sokoban, though.
01:31:40 <elliott> shachaf: How painful would that be?
01:31:47 <elliott> (Sometimes it's something else.)
01:31:54 <monqy> "reflection i think yes
01:31:55 <shachaf> But the bag of holding is better.
01:32:05 <elliott> Sgeo: If you steal from a shopkeeper then pay it back, the Kops will forgive you.
01:32:10 <elliott> Because they think they got angry because you stole, see?
01:32:19 <shachaf> Because you're a wizard, and on your first wish you're going to get a blessed greased fixed +n silver dragon scale mail!
01:32:21 <elliott> So since they get angry when you steal, repaying a debt always calms the Kops down.
01:32:25 <Sgeo> How did the Kops get summoned without angering shopkeeper?
01:32:36 <elliott> (Summoned? They're always present.)
01:32:44 <shachaf> elliott: Oh, you can sometimes just pay a shopkeeper off to unanger them.
01:32:49 <shachaf> Whether or not you stole something.
01:32:58 <Sgeo> elliott, they get summoned when you steal
01:33:07 <Sgeo> elliott, oh, are there loose roaming cops in Minetown?
01:33:07 <elliott> Sgeo: They were wandering about before I stole.
01:33:11 <elliott> shachaf: Can I just use the default options file?
01:33:17 <elliott> shachaf: Does it have reasonable autopickup settings?
01:33:18 <shachaf> elliott: You want to enable OPTIONS=hpmon
01:33:26 <elliott> Why? Because statuscolors sucks?
01:33:44 <shachaf> (I actually meant to say statuscolors. But either works.)
01:33:44 <elliott> Oh, wait, I have to use the options file if I want to name my pet, don't I?
01:33:50 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*15<(+)*15<(-)*20<(+)*40>(-)*20>(+)*15>(-)*15>>>>>(>[((-)*3([+{(+)*30[-][+]}])%6>)*3((+)*3([-{(-)*40[+][-]}])%6>)*18](+)*2)*21
01:33:51 <shachaf> You can name your pet in-game.
01:33:52 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_3pac: 56.8
01:34:07 <elliott> shachaf: Did you know I'm going to turn off DECgraphics?
01:34:23 <elliott> shachaf: Do you turn off DECgraphics, too?
01:34:23 <shachaf> elliott: You should steal Eidolos's config file.
01:34:37 <shachaf> http://alt.org/nethack/userdata/s/shachaf/shachaf.nh343rc
01:34:38 <elliott> See, I *like* DECgraphics. But it looks weird in my terminal.
01:34:42 <elliott> Because the vertical bars don't meet.
01:35:01 <monqy> maybe your terminal and/or font is bad
01:35:03 <elliott> shachaf: Does the default configuration file have menucolors?
01:35:11 <shachaf> elliott: I don't think so?
01:35:18 <shachaf> menucolors needs to have regexps explicitly enabled.
01:35:26 <elliott> shachaf: I mean "default" as in "NAO default".
01:35:32 <shachaf> I don't think NAO has a default?
01:35:38 <shachaf> Vanilla NetHack has no menucolors.
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01:35:55 <shachaf> elliott: Guess what I played a bit of yesterday!
01:35:59 <shachaf> Hint: The answer is Psychonauts.
01:36:15 <elliott> MENUCOLOR=" blessed "=green
01:36:21 <elliott> MENUCOLOR=" cursed .* (being worn)"=orange&underline
01:36:30 <elliott> shachaf: Guess "u" "r" "wrong".
01:36:43 <elliott> monqy: Did you know if you use the curses interface, the message window becomes multiple lines? Also everything becomes ugly?
01:36:55 <elliott> I have OPTIONS=hp_monitor.
01:36:56 <shachaf> elliott: The problem with Psychonauts is that the early game is boring.
01:37:04 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*15<(+)*15<(-)*20<(+)*40>(-)*20>(+)*15>(-)*15>>>>>(>[((-)*3([+{(+)*30[-][+]}])%6>)*3((+)*3([-{(-)*50[+][-]}])%6>)*18](+)*2)*21
01:37:06 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_3pac: 45.1
01:37:12 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*15<(+)*15<(-)*20<(+)*40>(-)*20>(+)*15>(-)*15>>>>>(>[((-)*3([+{(+)*30[-][+]}])%6>)*3((+)*3([-{(-)*40[+][-]}])%6>)*18](+)*2)*21
01:37:15 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_3pac: 56.8
01:37:19 <shachaf> elliott: It gets interesting after you finish the annoying levitation place, more or less.
01:37:24 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*15<(+)*15<(-)*20<(+)*40>(-)*20>(+)*15>(-)*15>>>>>(>[((-)*3([+{(+)*30[-][+]}])%6>)*3((+)*3([-{(-)*45[+][-]}])%6>)*18](+)*2)*21
01:37:24 <elliott> shachaf: Does statuscolors not have reasonable defaults?
01:37:26 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_3pac: 53.8
01:37:33 <shachaf> elliott: Nope. It has no defaults.
01:37:39 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*15<(+)*15<(-)*20<(+)*40>(-)*20>(+)*15>(-)*15>>>>>(>[((-)*3([+{(+)*35[-][+]}])%6>)*3((+)*3([-{(-)*40[+][-]}])%6>)*18](+)*2)*21
01:37:42 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_3pac: 57.7
01:37:51 <shachaf> elliott: Do you know the #name-y artifact bug?
01:38:16 <elliott> Anyway, I'm going to play NetHack.
01:38:23 <monqy> do you know the elbereth bug
01:38:27 <shachaf> Would ~half an hour from now work?
01:38:45 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
01:39:13 <elliott> shachaf: Did you know I don't like Elbereth?
01:39:29 <elliott> But I can't not use it, because it'd be purposefully hurting my play.
01:39:39 <shachaf> elliott: People have ascended Elberethless.
01:39:39 <elliott> monqy: Can you make a monqy NetHack conduct that involves no Elbereth?
01:39:42 <elliott> It'd be like not casting meph.
01:39:51 <monqy> elliott: just like how in crawl you do labyrithss and cast meph
01:39:54 <shachaf> elliott: That goes under the conduct of "illiterate".
01:39:55 <elliott> Elberethless is probably the least impressive conduct anyone has ever ascended with.
01:39:58 <shachaf> Also scrolls and spellbooks.
01:40:19 <shachaf> elliott: How about: VEGETARIAN
01:40:24 <shachaf> That conduct is less impressive.
01:40:43 <elliott> http://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Autopickup_exception This seems excessive.
01:40:49 <elliott> Is there something wrong with "autopickup,pickup_types:$?!/"="?
01:40:52 <elliott> {{autopickup,pickup_types:$?!/"=}}?
01:41:10 <shachaf> elliott: I like to autopickup,pickup_types:$
01:41:42 <shachaf> And a few other exceptions like magic lamps, I guess?
01:41:56 <shachaf> There's a lot of junk lying around, "d00d".
01:42:40 <monqy> i remember when i played nethack i didn't like autopickup because my autopickup autopicked up corpses while i was fighting
01:42:47 <elliott> Can you edit your NAO rc online?
01:42:48 <monqy> i didn't like that
01:42:51 <elliott> This vi-style editor is annoying.
01:43:13 <monqy> i also remember not knowing about elbereth or anything like that
01:43:22 <monqy> or how to start the quest
01:43:24 <shachaf> alt.org/nethack/EDITMYNETHACKRCORSOMETHING
01:43:36 <elliott> I don't know how to start the quest. But I know Elbereth.
01:43:40 <elliott> Can you set a macro up for Elbereth?
01:43:41 <monqy> or how to identify items!
01:43:45 <shachaf> monqy: Autopickingup all % is probably a bad idea.
01:43:49 <shachaf> elliott: You can in Interhack!
01:43:56 <elliott> shachaf: Wow, there's an online editor that uses HTML forms.
01:44:01 <elliott> Rather than a direct editor.
01:44:01 <monqy> better play interhack
01:44:03 <elliott> This is too fancy. Too fancy.
01:44:04 <shachaf> elliott: Yes, but don't use that.
01:44:14 <shachaf> (Or do use it. I don't know.)
01:44:26 <shachaf> Does it support statuscolors?
01:44:31 <elliott> shachaf: Did you know there's a NetHack bug where doors sometimes don't open in one try?
01:44:47 <elliott> And yes, it does. But I'm not going to use it.
01:44:54 <shachaf> elliott: Did you ever hear the story of the time I died in NetHack because of not speaking English well?
01:45:04 <shachaf> elliott: Also, if you're a wizard: Elbereth becomes *way* better once you get Magicbane.
01:45:14 <shachaf> elliott: Well, I noticed that "the door resists!" meant that it was stuck.
01:45:20 <shachaf> So I zapped a wand at a shopkeeper.
01:45:27 <shachaf> And it said "the shopkeeper resists!"
01:45:35 <shachaf> So I thought the shopkeeper was stuck and walked over to hit him.
01:46:05 <elliott> (Weren't you kind of dead at that point anyway?)
01:46:09 <elliott> shachaf: Hey, what should I call my cat?
01:46:13 <elliott> monqy: Can I call my cat "monqy"?
01:46:21 <elliott> shachaf: Oh, does zapping at a shk not anger it?
01:46:24 <elliott> I'm not going to call it monqy.
01:46:27 <elliott> I'm going to call it squarelos.
01:46:27 <shachaf> elliott: It was already angry.
01:46:33 <shachaf> But I was at the door; I could've escaped.
01:46:39 <elliott> monqy: Is calling it squarelos better than calling it monqy?
01:47:03 <elliott> monqy: Also, sign up as squarelos. I can't receive mail from monqy, it feels odd.
01:47:32 <elliott> shachaf: Should I turn on showborn?
01:48:00 <shachaf> elliott: showborn doesn't really matter?
01:48:15 <elliott> I like how [[nethackwiki:Options]] is ridiculously NAO-biased.
01:48:18 <elliott> Obsolete. NAO used to have the HPmon-patch, but uses now Statuscolors.
01:48:29 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:48:29 <elliott> Oh, that's in the "NAO" section. Okay.
01:48:47 <elliott> shachaf: The default rc *does* do statuscolors.
01:48:53 <elliott> Should I turn on the other ones?
01:48:57 <shachaf> "NAO": "Not Another Option"
01:49:14 <elliott> ## Sort items by name. One of "none", "loot", or "full"
01:49:21 <shachaf> elliott: I was once going to implement random-rainbow for Hallu.
01:49:31 <elliott> monqy: Don't you love hallu?
01:49:38 <shachaf> monqy: Crawl doesn't have Hallu!
01:49:43 <shachaf> Therefore, NetHack > Crawl.
01:49:57 <monqy> idk hallu is cute but annoying
01:50:46 <monqy> haven't you played nethack before ?
01:50:54 <elliott> monqy: Not as a spellcaster.
01:50:57 <elliott> shachaf: Should I colour Pw?
01:50:59 <shachaf> The funny part is that it calls it "energy" elsewhere.
01:51:06 <shachaf> It's not as important as HP.
01:51:17 <shachaf> elliott: Force Bolt costs 5 Pw.
01:51:23 <elliott> shachaf: Well, in Crawl, MP is coloured and all.
01:51:30 <elliott> Because having low MP is bad. (If you're no good at melee.)
01:51:31 <shachaf> elliott: Also, read [[nethackwiki::wizard]]
01:51:34 <monqy> other things i did in nethack: I didn't rest up hp or pw because ugh resting, especially resting in nethack
01:51:35 <elliott> (Also if you're good at melee sometimes!)
01:51:43 <shachaf> It's probably good. I haven't read it but why wouldn't it be?
01:51:49 <elliott> shachaf: No. I'm relying on your advice.
01:52:06 <shachaf> elliott: Some people say wizards shouldn't do spellcasting until after the quest.
01:52:14 <monqy> other things i did in nethack: play healer and stone to flesh every boulder then choke to death
01:52:20 <shachaf> The wizard quest is the point where spellcasting becomes really good.
01:52:30 <elliott> shachaf: But the reason I want to do spellcasting is because melee earlygame is really boring.
01:52:43 <monqy> other things i did in nethack: feed half-eaten lichen corpse to pony, make friend
01:52:47 <elliott> Anyway, does leaving showborn off cause any irretrievable information loss?
01:52:53 <elliott> I really hate irretrievable information loss.
01:52:56 <elliott> (i.e. is the info tracked anywhere else)
01:53:08 <shachaf> elliott: I think showborn only affects post-death information?
01:53:11 <elliott> In Sokoban I had about six to seven kittens.
01:53:18 <elliott> Most people try and dispose of pets in Sokoban.
01:53:30 <elliott> shachaf: But is the information on what monsters you killed tracked elsewhere?
01:53:35 <shachaf> elliott: Anyway, wizards + throwing daggers = mix
01:53:47 <shachaf> And wizards + wielding Magicbane (= athame = dagger) = mix
01:53:55 <elliott> AUTOPICKUP_EXCEPTION="<*magic lamp*"
01:53:55 <elliott> AUTOPICKUP_EXCEPTION="<*wand of wishing*"
01:53:56 <elliott> AUTOPICKUP_EXCEPTION="<*wand of death*"
01:53:58 <elliott> AUTOPICKUP_EXCEPTION="<*wand of polymorph*"
01:54:00 <elliott> I guess I'll uncomment these.
01:54:03 <shachaf> elliott: The monsters you *killed*? Yes.
01:54:05 <elliott> (Actually I did before I pasted that. That's why they don't have #.)
01:54:23 <monqy> guess who forgot about polypiling
01:54:31 <monqy> guess who didn't know about polypiling when he played nethack
01:54:44 <monqy> guess who startscummed wizards for rings of polyself then died to system shock
01:54:51 <elliott> shachaf: (Is there any reason to autopickup those lamps/wands?)
01:54:57 <elliott> shachaf: (I mean, surely I'd know if I stepped on 'em.)
01:55:03 <shachaf> elliott: To save you the hassle?
01:55:19 <elliott> s/hassle/inconsistent behaviour considering nothing but gold (which is goldified) is picked up/
01:55:19 <shachaf> AUTOPICKUP_EXCEPTION="<*gray stone*"
01:55:37 <shachaf> elliott: Look, add whatever you want to your autopickup list!
01:55:40 <elliott> Anyway, OK, I think I'm ready.
01:55:45 <shachaf> (But don't add gray stone. That would be stupid.)
01:55:54 <elliott> monqy: curses interface: http://nethackwiki.com/mediawiki/images/9/96/Expanded-status.png
01:55:54 <monqy> is gold goldified in nethack?
01:56:11 <monqy> elliott: you sure that's not hugeterm?
01:56:36 <elliott> shachaf: Goldified means that the class of items in question is not present in the inventory and takes up no weight.
01:56:38 <monqy> karl is a bad person
01:56:56 <elliott> For instance, in Crawl, gold is goldified (it just adds to your gold count, nothing else), and so are runes (they just get added to the list of runes you've picked up).
01:57:10 <shachaf> elliott: Gold takes up weight.
01:57:11 <elliott> shachaf: Has it been half an hour yet?
01:57:25 <shachaf> elliott: Half an hour *after* we finish talking so I can do the thing I need to do.
01:57:40 <elliott> Now I'm not going to let you do the thing you need to do.
01:57:44 <elliott> You have to watch me instead.
01:58:29 <elliott> shachaf: Did you hear that?
01:59:15 <shachaf> elliott: I gotta, like, go home, man. :-(
01:59:23 <shachaf> I don't even know your username.
01:59:28 <elliott> shachaf: Where are you? I bet where you are is great.
01:59:30 <monqy> you should have thought of that before !!
01:59:32 <elliott> My username is ehird. I haven't started playing yet.
01:59:46 <shachaf> I'll go home in a moment and watch after that.
02:00:00 <shachaf> (UNLESS: I decide to do something else instead.)
02:00:05 <shachaf> (But I'll watch for a little bit.)
02:01:03 <elliott> monqy: You'll watch me, right?
02:01:23 <monqy> i've had nao open ever since you said you'd play
02:01:49 <elliott> http://alt.org/nethack/player-stats.php?player=ehird Wow, I was diverse.
02:02:04 <monqy> at one point i accidentally a button that opened rcfile editing and i closed that but for some reason it closed the connection then when i reconnected i made a squarelos account
02:02:11 <elliott> http://alt.org/nethack/player-all.php?player=ehird
02:02:17 <elliott> I have not played this year.
02:02:51 <elliott> Okay, maybe I have played today.
02:03:10 <elliott> Let me check by watching the ttyrec.
02:03:45 <monqy> i remember you playing nethack but that may have been nh4
02:04:32 <elliott> Warning - Boolean option specified multiple times: autopickup.
02:04:45 <elliott> I started the game anyway.
02:04:50 <elliott> You are lucky! Full moon tonight.
02:05:22 <monqy> what are you playing
02:05:46 <elliott> Let me check [[nethackwiki:Wizard]].
02:06:03 <elliott> OK, humans seem to suck, gnomes can't be chaotic, and orcs suck at spells.
02:06:29 <monqy> you could be lawful and wear opposite alignment
02:06:34 <monqy> good ideas (c) monqy
02:06:42 <elliott> I wonder which gender I should be!
02:06:54 <monqy> for optimal game play experience
02:07:06 <monqy> if you're female you can lay eggs; that's a boon
02:07:13 <monqy> can males do anything ?
02:07:16 <elliott> Any eggs found and carried by male characters have a 50/50 chance of hatching tame. Eggs found and carried by females will never hatch tame. (Eggs laid by you will always hatch tame, regardless of your current gender.)
02:07:30 <elliott> "In NetHack brass, female characters dressed as nurses can apply bandages faster than men."
02:07:56 <elliott> THANK YOU FOR MANGLING MY NAME, NETHACK
02:08:23 <monqy> nethack is controlled exlusively by numpad
02:08:34 -!- tswett has changed nick to TenRantStew.
02:08:46 <monqy> did you know: when i played nethack, for a while i exlusively used arrowkeys
02:08:50 <monqy> then i learned vikeys
02:09:21 <elliott> NetHack's interface is so weird, ugh.
02:09:45 <elliott> What's elvish eyesight like?
02:09:54 <monqy> lower case z is zap wand
02:10:44 <elliott> NetHack's secret corridor stuff.
02:10:58 <elliott> monqy: Now would be an excellent time to send me "hi".
02:11:25 <elliott> Patashu: I've played NetHack before!
02:12:02 <elliott> monqy: Did that mail daemon just... reveal terrain for me?
02:13:01 <elliott> monqy: OK you have to reduce your frequency of mail-sending because NetHack's UI for it is awful.
02:13:13 <elliott> Wait, where the heck is the shop?
02:13:22 <monqy> that may or may not be why i'm sending so much mail
02:13:38 <monqy> nethack's ui for mail is comically bad
02:13:47 <Patashu> you have to pick it up and read it, right
02:13:57 <elliott> Patashu: A mail daemon runs towards you.
02:14:01 <elliott> And a scroll of mail ends up in your inventory.
02:14:24 <elliott> There is a message on this scroll. The message is from 'someone'.--More--
02:14:34 <elliott> monqy: Where's the shop :(
02:14:38 -!- Lumpio- has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
02:14:38 <monqy> you forgot "as you read the scroll it disappears"
02:14:43 -!- TenRantStew has changed nick to tswett.
02:14:59 <monqy> try the black spots
02:15:20 <elliott> "A scroll of mail will "activate" an Elbereth square like any other object."
02:16:39 <monqy> when i played nethack i didn't have menucolors
02:16:49 <monqy> so i didn't notice when i was dying
02:16:54 <elliott> wow each book contains one spell?
02:17:11 <monqy> nethack books tend to do that,y es
02:17:19 <elliott> is there a convenient key like 5
02:17:25 <elliott> Patashu: are you watching me; you should watch me!
02:17:45 <elliott> monqy: how can I tell which corpses are ok to eat ;(
02:17:59 <monqy> they're bad for you
02:18:18 <Patashu> and yes, you have to memorize or look up 99% of things in nethack
02:18:21 <elliott> monqy: do you want to hear a joke
02:18:26 <elliott> the joke is: x is examine in crawl
02:18:28 <elliott> but "switch weapon" in nethack
02:18:40 <elliott> the joke is: it takes a turn and leaves you bare-handed if you have no alternate weapon
02:18:41 <Patashu> isn't it l or v or something
02:18:56 <Patashu> I would need to look up all of the keys
02:19:01 <elliott> monqy: should i wear the iron skull cap
02:19:09 <monqy> does patashue play net hack
02:19:23 <elliott> Patashu: where is the shop
02:20:09 <elliott> Patashu: WHERE IS THE SHOP
02:20:34 <monqy> try the black spots!!
02:21:02 <elliott> Do you want to hear another joke?
02:21:05 <elliott> NetHack's ally management system.
02:23:39 -!- PatashuXantheres has joined.
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02:23:47 <elliott> monqy: was that one of your funny jokes
02:24:06 <monqy> elliott: you're not giving me much to work with!!
02:24:36 <elliott> pls don't make the jokes TOO funny because I am ｒｅａｌｌｙ ｂａｄ ａｔ ＮｅｔＨａｃｋ
02:24:45 <elliott> and thus will have no idea if you are serious or not
02:24:59 <monqy> that's part of the fun
02:25:42 <elliott> You faint from lack of food. You regain consciousness.
02:25:44 <elliott> You faint from lack of food. You regain consciousness.
02:25:47 <elliott> You feel tough! You must be leading a healthy life-style.
02:26:41 -!- TeruFSX has joined.
02:27:04 <elliott> i don't want to play nethack if
02:27:09 <elliott> other people are watching me be really terrible
02:27:13 <elliott> what if like 10 people were watching m
02:27:19 <elliott> what if #nethack ganged up to laugh at me
02:27:21 <monqy> that's part of the fun
02:27:24 <elliott> monqy: join #nethack to make sure they don't do that
02:27:32 <monqy> will you be in #nethack too
02:27:47 <monqy> theyre very well behaved
02:27:57 <elliott> monqy: i don;t believe youre in #nethack
02:28:04 <monqy> why don't you join and see for yourself
02:28:13 <elliott> did you know that i can check
02:28:25 <monqy> ddid you ask someone :(
02:28:28 <elliott> http://alt.org/nethack/irc.php hMMMMMMM i see no monqy joins lines
02:28:58 <monqy> im not going in there!!!
02:29:28 <elliott> monqy: remember how ghosts are spaces in nethack
02:29:41 <monqy> shachaf: you missed elliott's first game
02:29:45 <monqy> shachaf: it was a "blast"
02:30:03 <shachaf> monqy: did elliott "explode" in the "blast"?????
02:30:14 <monqy> exploded into a pile of fainted ehird
02:30:25 <monqy> someone mysterious called him a murderer and he fainted after reading it
02:30:47 <elliott> (they called me a murderer because i kicked my pet so that i could eat it)
02:31:03 <elliott> http://alt.org/nethack/player-stats.php?player=Fuglia
02:31:05 <elliott> they have only played one game
02:31:08 <elliott> PatashuXantheres: was it you
02:31:36 <shachaf> elliott: Waht are you playing<<>
02:31:37 <elliott> monqy: do you want to hear a joke
02:31:39 <elliott> pets stop travel in nethack
02:31:41 <shachaf> let me see your "ivnentory"
02:32:04 <elliott> how long should i wait to find more corridor/secret doors/etc. before giving up
02:32:46 <elliott> why can elves only start chaotic
02:32:50 <shachaf> elliott: You know iron is bad for casters, right?
02:33:23 <elliott> shachaf: In Crawl only body armour affects that. :(
02:34:23 <shachaf> elliott: I thought you were going to cast spells!
02:34:53 <elliott> shachaf: Is there really no convenient key for resting to recover HP?
02:35:14 <shachaf> All sorts of numeric prefixes to .!
02:35:36 <elliott> Where is the other room :'(
02:35:38 <shachaf> monqy: Are you coming to visit?
02:36:01 <monqy> shachaf: was that visit
02:36:12 <shachaf> monqy: No, I mean visit me!
02:36:13 <elliott> shachaf: Should I try digging for victory?
02:36:24 <monqy> shachaf: how does thaat work
02:36:25 <shachaf> elliott: It's boring in the other dimension.
02:36:53 <shachaf> elliott: If you win it's interesting, but you're going to lost right away all the time instead.
02:37:07 <elliott> shachaf: Sounds like diving in NetHack.
02:37:11 <elliott> shachaf: Sounds like diving in Crawl.
02:37:16 <elliott> Except diving is exciting even if you lose.
02:37:17 <shachaf> "hi, my name is eliot, and i'm gonianng to lsots."
02:37:23 <elliott> Is diving exciting even if you lose in NetHack?
02:37:29 <monqy> sounds like diving in crawl if you're bad at diving in crawl
02:37:45 <elliott> shachaf: Is there a good way to wait for my pet? :(
02:37:51 <shachaf> elliott: Anyway, if you get both a pick axe and a musical isntrument, you can try to DfV.
02:38:02 <monqy> elliott: apply whistle of come here please
02:38:29 <shachaf> (This computer program brought to you by: COBOL.)
02:38:34 <monqy> find a mirror and say "squarelos" three times
02:38:35 <elliott> A lot of people just abandon their pets, I think.
02:38:56 <elliott> Yes, but I love squarelos.
02:39:10 <elliott> shachaf: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/learndb.html#squarelos, http://crawl.akrasiac.org/learndb.html#monqy
02:39:49 <elliott> shachaf: How do I get in that doorway now that I've shoved a rock in front of it?
02:39:57 <monqy> elliott: zap force bolt at the rock
02:40:28 <monqy> it's one of my ol "make rocks stop being in my way" techs
02:40:35 <monqy> the other is to stone to flesh then eat it
02:41:38 <shachaf> zap wnad of stkiring at it
02:41:54 <shachaf> Take off all your clothes and crawl under it
02:42:02 <monqy> kick it until it shatters under the might of your chops
02:42:11 <shachaf> Polymorph into a giant and pick it up.
02:42:18 <shachaf> Or! Become a xorn and walk through it.
02:42:19 <monqy> polymorph into a xorn and eat it
02:42:27 <elliott> coppro: I also complained to ais523 that the dungeon generation algorithm was awful!
02:42:41 <monqy> shachaf: did you hear my ring tech
02:42:52 <monqy> stone to flesh the ring, then eat it
02:42:53 <shachaf> monqy: Zap stone to flesh on a stone ring, eat it?
02:43:03 <elliott> monqy: Is that your everything tech?
02:43:07 <coppro> elliott: that's not new to nh4...
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02:43:14 <shachaf> Zap stone to flesh on a stone golem
02:43:25 <monqy> flesh golem, surely?
02:43:34 <monqy> zap cocatrice on flesh golem
02:44:01 -!- olsner has joined.
02:44:15 <elliott> You have a sad feeling for a moment, then it passes.
02:44:15 <monqy> shachaf: did you hear my other ring tech?
02:44:25 <shachaf> elliott: But at least you didn't kill it.
02:44:27 <monqy> shachaf: zap stone to flesh on stone ring, then wear it on your finger
02:44:30 * elliott changes in-game name to kmc
02:44:34 <shachaf> elliott: Pray if you haven't prayed recentl.
02:44:59 <shachaf> You shouldn't have prayed if you had food.
02:45:02 <elliott> i wonder what i actually killed
02:45:24 <monqy> collect rocks and polypile into food
02:45:31 <monqy> also you should play healer so you can stone to flesh
02:45:59 <monqy> you can also heal squarelos by playing a healere
02:46:16 <monqy> elliott: maybe you should force bolt more before you start to die
02:46:17 <shachaf> elliott: Um, close the door and rest?
02:46:27 <monqy> elliott: also note: you can eat corpses before you get hungry
02:46:45 -!- PatashuXantheres has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
02:46:54 <monqy> but then the corpses will go bad and you'll get foodpois
02:46:56 <shachaf> Did you just Create Monster?
02:46:59 -!- Patashu has joined.
02:47:02 <monqy> this is what happens if you don't eat the corpses
02:47:07 <elliott> You feel that eating the little dog was a bad idea.
02:47:16 <shachaf> elliott: Don't eat little dogs. :-"(
02:47:18 <monqy> see this is why you stone to flesh on rocks
02:47:21 <monqy> you can feed them to dogs
02:47:27 <monqy> feed the rocks to the dogs
02:47:29 <monqy> feed the dogs rocks
02:47:33 -!- Lumpio- has joined.
02:48:05 <elliott> i want a serious answer!!!
02:48:09 <elliott> i do not want to play if i only get
02:48:12 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: jokes': not found
02:48:47 <elliott> monqy: (seriously what happened)
02:48:54 <shachaf> elliott: You now have the "aggravate monster" intrinsic.
02:49:09 <monqy> elliott: eating dogs is bad for your alignment or something
02:49:11 <elliott> I should just check the wiki.
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02:49:27 <shachaf> http://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Aggravate_monster
02:49:37 <elliott> Yes, but you leave no cues whatsoever as to whether your answers are serious or not, making asking you pointless.
02:50:10 <elliott> OK, this intrinsic looks annoying.
02:50:14 <elliott> So I guess I'll have a stupid death now.
02:50:28 <elliott> I don't even have a digging tool.
02:51:09 <elliott> This time I won't eat a dog or a cat.
02:51:49 <elliott> shachaf: Why does NetHack feel so klunky?
02:54:39 <elliott> shachaf: Read-iding scrolls is dumb, right?
02:55:28 <elliott> As is meleeing acid blobs.
02:57:29 <elliott> monqy: are you enjoying my nethack adventure
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02:59:22 <elliott> why are shachaf and monqy ignoring me :(
03:00:20 <monqy> you mean the gnms and duarf?
03:00:32 <monqy> try a "force bolt"
03:00:52 <elliott> i just meant the weird level layout but yeah that too
03:01:35 <elliott> is it ok to wear hooded cloak & do i want to
03:02:02 <monqy> i think so / i think so
03:02:23 <monqy> ask someone who knows nethack!!!
03:02:46 <monqy> i only know enough nethack to make funny jokes and give mediocre earlygame advice
03:03:07 <monqy> see i didn't even know those things
03:03:08 <elliott> i'm already wearing a cloak
03:03:34 <monqy> other things that i know about nethacjk: negative ac is good ac
03:03:40 <monqy> what did squarelos do
03:03:54 <monqy> see this is why you should be a healer
03:04:29 <elliott> this is a better level layout than most levels
03:04:49 <elliott> is this the mines or something!!!!
03:04:56 <elliott> why so many Gnomes and hwarfs
03:05:15 <monqy> i didnt see you enter the level, but i do know the mines have that laoutt, and Gnomes, and huarfs
03:05:41 <monqy> eat corps (jokes' it'll foood poison you)
03:05:47 <monqy> oh it's gone anyway
03:06:17 <monqy> ps im gone again i'll be back soon
03:13:18 <elliott> Can't find dungeon feature '>'.
03:13:40 <elliott> there were downstairs before
03:13:56 <monqy> did they get covert up
03:14:46 <elliott> next time i won't enter the mines immediately
03:14:48 <elliott> monqy: are you ready for me to
03:14:52 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: play: not found
03:14:57 <elliott> this is a nethack first for me
03:16:29 <elliott> monqy: imagine playing nethack without colours or travel
03:18:29 <monqy> imagine playing nethack
03:18:43 <elliott> monqy: nethack isn't too bad c'mon!!!
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03:20:21 <elliott> monqy: look at berry's game
03:21:15 <elliott> WHERE ARE THE DOWNSTAIRS ????
03:21:22 <elliott> there were here a moment ago
03:22:18 <elliott> monqy: wow berry's more message is in
03:23:29 <elliott> i didn't realise it was mines though
03:23:39 <elliott> but i didn't realise i;d entered mines
03:23:40 <shachaf> elliott: read-iding scorolls is dumb "(
03:23:47 <elliott> how do you id scrolls then!
03:23:53 <shachaf> elliott: You id scrolls with
03:24:00 <elliott> how do you id id scrolls!!!!
03:24:12 <shachaf> (No, you do it with a shop.)
03:24:22 <shachaf> ID is the most common type of scroll.
03:26:30 <elliott> Do not wear unidentified magic boots without curse-testing them first.
03:27:28 <elliott> how do i tell whether staircase goes to mines
03:28:02 <elliott> Knights can identify all weapons and non-magical armor from the beginning. They also have a special intrinsic ability to #jump like the knight piece in chess.
03:28:02 <monqy> oh no is berry ooze farming
03:28:14 <elliott> monqy: this is like ??implemented bad ideas
03:28:19 <elliott> (the second sentence, I mean)
03:28:37 <elliott> monqy: i watched Wooble do what appeared to be pudding farming on the planes once
03:28:51 <shachaf> elliott: Do curse-testing on altars.
03:29:00 <elliott> staircase question is more important
03:29:13 <elliott> 04:27 <elliott> how do i tell whether staircase goes to mines
03:29:28 <shachaf> The one that has the mines on the other end
03:29:45 <elliott> is it good to do some more dlvls before mines i don't know what the
03:29:56 <elliott> i only ever did mines as a gnome
03:29:59 <shachaf> elliott: It's a good idea to always go down-and-right-back-up when you see a staircase, so that you know where it is on the level.
03:30:04 <shachaf> In case you need to find it from
03:30:20 <shachaf> elliott: Mines-first or Sokoban-first are both accepted wisdom.
03:30:20 <elliott> that is crawl wisdom too but it's boring so i don't do it
03:30:42 <elliott> shachaf: I mean, assuming I do Mines first, do I go into Mines as soon as I find the entrance?
03:30:47 <shachaf> elliott: However, accepted wisdom is not to go past minetown.
03:30:48 <elliott> Or should I level up a bit in the dungeon first?
03:30:52 <shachaf> There are nasty things down there.
03:31:07 <shachaf> Mines are OK for leveling pre-post-minetown.
03:31:33 <elliott> A blessed potion of see invisible shatters!--More--
03:31:41 <elliott> force_bolt_on_monkey_unreasons
03:31:50 <elliott> shachaf: how do i avoid being hungry all the time
03:31:54 <elliott> dont answer eating ill kill you
03:32:27 <elliott> (is reading unid'd spellbooks ok)
03:33:08 <monqy> it might teleport and paralyze you
03:33:36 <elliott> monqy: query of seriousness level!!!
03:33:55 <monqy> sometimes if i had no other escape options i'd use a spellbook
03:34:08 <monqy> i didn';t know about elbereth
03:34:12 <monqy> spellbook is cooler anyway
03:34:13 <Sgeo> elliott, I _think_ it's safe if you're a wizard, it will warn you if it's too difficult
03:34:32 <elliott> http://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Boots does "2 AC" mean "-2 AC"
03:36:08 <elliott> You are laden with moisture and can barely breathe!
03:36:26 <elliott> Despite messages like "You are laden with moisture and can barely breathe", they are not very dangerous because of their low speed.
03:36:44 <pikhq> elliott: AD&D-style AC is ludicrously confusing like that, and unfortunately Nethack was inspired by AD&D mechanics.
03:37:00 <elliott> pikhq: you should watch me!!
03:37:43 <elliott> (special one-time only offer: if you start watching, you can decide whether I do Mines right now or more Dungeon first!)
03:41:43 <elliott> "The DevTeam does not consider the lack of any warnings about hitting a floating eye to be a bug.[1] The encyclopedia entry does warn even unspoiled players of the danger."
03:42:13 <coppro> that's one nice thing about ace
03:42:22 <coppro> well, not blue es anyway
03:42:25 <coppro> grays are still dangerous
03:43:07 <coppro> they just cause you to miss them
03:43:31 <coppro> rather than basically kill you
03:43:34 <elliott> coppro: You should also watch me!!!
03:44:21 <coppro> elliott: better things to do, sorry :(
03:44:23 <elliott> what should i call an orange potion
03:44:36 <elliott> coppro: that hurts me in the part of me that hurts :'(
03:45:08 <coppro> elliott: it's called the pituitary gland
03:45:22 <elliott> that hurts me in the pituitary gland
03:53:16 <elliott> appending _reasons to things
03:53:29 <elliott> You are carrying too much to get through.
03:53:33 <elliott> elves have that a lot right
03:54:39 <elliott> well there's no carry warning on my screen
03:54:42 <elliott> should i drop stuff or something
03:55:17 <elliott> You step onto a level teleport trap! You feel a wrenching sensation.
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03:56:41 <MDude> (2^(x+2))^2=(2^4)*4^x
03:57:41 <elliott> wow, I think I fell to minetown
03:58:27 <elliott> hey, it's no less contextless than what you said :)
03:59:36 <coppro> I'm going to resume my game
03:59:40 <coppro> I killed vlad last time
03:59:43 <coppro> my vladbane was awesome
04:00:01 <coppro> make sure to use a kickass vladbane k?
04:00:27 <MDude> I got the book Number Freak a while ago, and a thing it mentions is that 16 objects can be arranged into a 4*4 solid square or a 5*5 hollow one.
04:00:46 <MDude> And that this is because 2^4=4^2.
04:02:01 <MDude> It said that this was unique, and for the form a^b=b^a;a!=b, and it is, but I wanted to find a way to generalise it, so I did.
04:02:05 <itidus20> is it often the case that a^b = b^a ?
04:02:39 <itidus20> dang... if i was a better mathematician i may have realized to note a!=b
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04:03:12 <elliott> monqy: did you miss my interestingness
04:03:23 <MDude> I forget to remember that part sometimes.
04:04:02 <itidus20> in my head, it is implied by the use of a and b that a!=b
04:04:54 <itidus20> since it would be more optimal to say a^a=a^a rather than a^b=b^a;a=b
04:05:14 <elliott> itidus20: except that that would exclude all the as and bs that aren't equal!!!
04:06:15 <elliott> You see here a small mimic corpse (5 zorkmids).
04:06:19 <itidus20> that is the difference between a mathematician i suppose
04:06:21 <elliott> you want to charge me for the corpse of the mimic I just killed?
04:06:27 <elliott> fuck you, Pemboeang. fuck you.
04:08:11 <elliott> I angered izchak by destroying his door in the process of killing a gnome wizard
04:08:32 <elliott> oh at least he killed the mimic though
04:11:34 <itidus20> MDude: so yeah, is it often the case that a^b=b^a;a!=b ?
04:11:48 <itidus20> or is it just in the case of {2,4}
04:13:33 <itidus20> i wonder what fallacies i commited by saying "or is it just in the case of {2,4}"
04:17:36 <MDude> The I tihnk it's that 2^2 = 4.
04:17:49 <itidus20> a^b=b^a;a!=b iff a ∈ {2,4}; b ∈ {2,4}
04:17:59 <MDude> So in either case it's 2^2^2.
04:18:55 <itidus20> well you can't really trust unicode to show up
04:18:57 <MDude> With other values I tihnk there's a solution, jsut not an integer one.
04:19:51 <MDude> Er, or something like that.
04:19:55 <itidus20> well yeah 16 = 4^4 = 5 * 2 + 3 * 2
04:19:59 <elliott> monqy: i angered izchak by blasting his door in the process of killing a gnome wizard
04:20:07 <elliott> he killed the small mimic for me but now he's killing me :(
04:20:13 <elliott> also i don't want to kill izchak (not that i could) because "karma"
04:20:34 <elliott> "In all other cases, you can pay him 1000zm for a 2/3 chance of pacifying him."
04:21:03 <monqy> shouldnt v killed that nome
04:21:43 <elliott> should have killed it with melee you mean
04:22:19 <elliott> despite not being in izchak's shop
04:22:46 <itidus20> MDude: ah so its the only one with an integer solution?
04:23:23 <elliott> monqy: time to try again!!!
04:24:02 <monqy> i used to enjoy nethack
04:24:21 * itidus20 sends MDude a tetris variant with only one tetronimo.. the [][][][]
04:24:34 <elliott> monqy: maybe you can enjoy it again!!!
04:24:35 <monqy> then the interface got to me, then i learned about all the horrible things in it
04:25:08 <elliott> "Marduk, the creator, is mentioned in the introduction text. He created at least the Mazes of Menace, and probably the entire universe. Aside from that, however, he plays no part in the game."
04:25:15 <elliott> monqy: the thing with nethack is: "not taking it seriously"
04:25:28 <elliott> i mean there has to be SOME game that's horrible
04:25:34 <monqy> it's like 4.1 without 5
04:25:50 <elliott> monqy: you could macro up a 5!!!
04:25:55 <elliott> 4.1 is way more punishing wow
04:26:10 <itidus20> you can create 4*4 solid squares or a 5*5 hollow ones with that tetronimo using tetris rules!
04:26:53 <monqy> is it possible to play nethack quickly
04:27:02 <monqy> this is an important question
04:27:49 <coppro> "So thou though thou couldst kill me, fool?"
04:27:50 <elliott> monqy: probably but you playing quickly always happens when you're not having fun
04:27:54 <MDude> itidus20: Yes, or the only one where the solution, a, and b are all integers anyway.
04:28:02 <monqy> elbereths true nature revealt
04:28:04 <coppro> Choose which spell to cast: finger of death
04:28:08 <coppro> You kill the Wizard of Yendor!
04:28:19 <monqy> elliott: it happens when im having fun too
04:28:46 <monqy> just not all the time
04:28:52 <monqy> whereas when im not having fun i tend to play fast
04:29:10 <monqy> anyway fine i;'ll play some nethack whatever
04:29:16 <elliott> monqy: i didn't mean now!!
04:29:21 <elliott> now is hte time to watch me play nethack "a sacred time"
04:29:40 <elliott> you can even send me lots of mail!!!
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04:42:29 <itidus20> when I read "<coppro> You kill the Wizard of Yendor!" it all clicked
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04:50:12 <elliott> monqy: it does not seem like you can convert a lawful to chaotic altar?
04:50:29 <monqy> thgat is cross-aligned???
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04:51:44 <elliott> hopeful feeling sounds good!!!
04:51:56 <monqy> you dont pray for it
04:52:02 <monqy> iirc you get it from an offering
04:52:04 <elliott> If you can pray, have positive alignment and your god is not angry you generally have a chance of getting an artifact. Your level must be greater than 2, and your luck must be nonnegative. If those conditions are met, the chances of your getting an artifact are 1/(10 + 2 × Number of existing artifacts × Number of gifts granted by your god):
04:52:15 <elliott> monqy: does my artefact likelihood decrease over time
04:52:49 -!- djx has joined.
04:53:22 <elliott> not carrying around corpses reasons
04:53:26 <HackEgo> djx: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
04:53:31 <elliott> monqy: let's try that again
04:54:26 <elliott> monqy: do you want to hear a joek
04:55:06 <elliott> actually forgot in the process of asking that
04:55:35 <elliott> i generally find it a surprising event when i am like you in some way
04:55:53 <itidus20> i will try and provide a good analogy just to make sure
04:57:35 -!- djx has left.
04:58:08 <itidus20> if an announcer was going to present the next performer to the stage, and he had the name in his head, but then he focused on saying "folks.. this is what you've all been waiting for.. the great, the wonderful, the magnificient.." and then forgetting the name
04:59:37 <itidus20> maybe a better analogy would be.. "what i'm about to tell you is really cool but i have to warn you that it could be distressing.. oh and also i cannot take all the credit for it, but the idea just occured to me.. so as i was saying" ... "i forget"
04:59:56 <elliott> i forgive you because you are a cat
05:01:10 <monqy> also when i played nethack: i didnt knowa bout #pray
05:01:17 <itidus20> elliott: it's probably more like how all humans inherently have a lot in common
05:01:20 <elliott> monqy: you were playing: hard mode
05:02:49 <itidus20> forgetting something due to waiting too long to say it is probably just a human thing
05:03:12 <itidus20> but habitually delaying saying things for too long is something else
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05:04:32 <elliott> monqy: im going to do mines soon
05:04:41 <itidus20> my joke was: he puts the "oh man" in romance
05:05:42 <Sgeo> I want to join one team because of the backstory, but a different team has a better logo!
05:05:56 <monqy> Sgeo: what sort of team
05:06:00 <monqy> Sgeo: what sort of backstory
05:06:01 <monqy> Sgeo: what sort of logo
05:06:03 <Sgeo> monqy, factions in Planetside
05:06:44 <Sgeo> "VANU SOVEREIGNTY A technocratic faction that believes humanity can only evolve by rediscovering and tapping the lost technology of the Vanu."
05:06:52 <Sgeo> ^^like the backstory
05:07:21 <Sgeo> But the logos: http://www-cdn.planetside2.com/images/gameinfo/empire_Sprite.png?v=131.4
05:07:39 <monqy> Sgeo: which of those do you like
05:07:42 <Sgeo> From top to bottom, Terran Republic, New Conglomerate, Vanu Sovereignty
05:07:46 <Sgeo> I like the NC logo
05:07:47 <elliott> For some reason, the invisible leprechaun's presence is known to you.--More--
05:07:47 <itidus20> Sgeo: i suggest you first roll for initiative before rolling to determine which team
05:08:13 <itidus20> i haven't really played d&d though so just making this up >.<
05:08:18 <Sgeo> Although the NC uniforms suck, VS logo rules
05:08:23 <itidus20> so roll on whether you should roll
05:08:23 <Sgeo> erm, VS uniform rules
05:08:31 <Sgeo> The VS logo sucks and the NC logo rules
05:08:46 <monqy> elliott: what did doyu DO
05:09:05 <itidus20> Sgeo: ok look at the metadecision.. what sort of players will go with VS, and what sort of players will go with NC
05:09:22 <elliott> monqy: do you want me to play again
05:09:32 <Sgeo> NC wallpaper http://www-cdn.planetside2.com/images/media/wallpapers/2_iphone.jpg?v=131.4 VS wallpaper http://www-cdn.planetside2.com/images/media/wallpapers/3_iphone.jpg?v=131.4
05:09:42 <Sgeo> You can see who has the better uniforms
05:10:15 <Sgeo> Not what I was thinking
05:10:16 <itidus20> would the NC people be shallow to choose a team with a poor backstory? or would they simply be going with their natural instinct to like the logo?
05:10:35 <Sgeo> itidus20, they're "Freedom" people
05:10:47 <monqy> i think itidus20 has it right
05:10:49 <elliott> monqy: guess who'e play again
05:10:51 <itidus20> or would the VS people be elite snobs for choosing a team with a good backstory? or are they just good people
05:11:08 <monqy> elliott: play healer, heal squarelos, heal rocks, eat rocks
05:11:09 <elliott> monqy: whistle RIGHT BELOW MY STARTING SQUARE
05:11:10 <Sgeo> itidus20, http://www.planetside2.com/overview
05:11:10 <shachaf> elliott: As a wizard unidentified spellbooks is safe unless they're cursed.
05:11:15 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: i: not found
05:11:19 <Sgeo> Scroll down to where you see the logos
05:11:23 <elliott> (Does Hebrew not distinguish is/are?)
05:11:24 <Sgeo> Very very brief summaries of the empires
05:11:28 <shachaf> elliott: "reading" was implied as part of your question.
05:11:41 <elliott> Your sentence was ungrammertical. :(
05:11:51 <shachaf> No, it just left some parts implied.
05:11:56 <shachaf> In the context of your question it made sense.
05:12:00 <shachaf> It's just that your question was hours ago.
05:12:11 <shachaf> elliott: Hebrew does distinguish. Moreover it distinguishes male "is"/"are" from female "is"/"are".
05:12:11 <monqy> Be one of the elite players to beta test this highly-anticipated shooter! We need your participation and feedback to make this a truly epic, genre-defining game!
05:12:24 <monqy> Sgeo: are you elite
05:12:26 <shachaf> Actually, come to think of it, it doesn't have a word for "is" or "are".
05:12:57 <Sgeo> My computer won't be able to handle it, I need a new computer.
05:13:24 <Sgeo> BTW, nicknames for people of each faction:
05:13:30 <Sgeo> elmos, smurfs, barnys
05:13:44 <Sgeo> Barneys I think
05:14:37 <monqy> barnys elitest faktion
05:17:49 <elliott> monqy: do you know what upsets me
05:18:47 <elliott> monqy: pets move a bunch after you go >
05:18:49 <quintopia> !bfjoust poke http://sprunge.us/dRSQ
05:18:53 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_poke: 46.8
05:19:20 <elliott> You see here a scroll labeled YUM YUM.
05:19:34 <elliott> monqy: remember when you said "yum yum" to me
05:21:11 <elliott> shachaf: is eating permafood meant to be common in nethack
05:21:29 <elliott> i was going to sacrifice that
05:21:32 <shachaf> elliott: You can often get by with corpses; sometimes not.
05:21:39 <elliott> shachaf: btw can i have details on sacrificing to get magicbane
05:21:45 <elliott> how many corpses am i going to have to sacrifice approx.
05:21:50 <elliott> and does the magicbanelikelihood decrease over time
05:21:54 <elliott> or can i sacrifice corpses at my leisure
05:22:07 <shachaf> elliott: By early-to-mid-game you should have more permafood than you need.
05:22:14 <shachaf> elliott: Sokoban is full of it. Another reason to do sokoban first.
05:22:29 <elliott> shachaf: But Sokoban makes me intolerably bored,
05:22:29 <shachaf> elliott: Magicbane is a guaranteed first sacrifice gift to wizards.
05:22:57 <shachaf> Whether it's early or not doesn't matter, but sacrificing increases your luck, and high luck makes it more likely to get something.
05:23:08 <shachaf> So if you do a bunch of sacrifices together it's more likely to yield something? Maybe.
05:23:21 <shachaf> Mostly it's just chance. I've gotten it as the first sacrifice gift sometimes.
05:24:28 <shachaf> Killing monsters increases your alignment which might also have something to do with it? But presumably you're doing that anyway.
05:24:29 <elliott> (But, roughly how many corpses can I expect to sac?)
05:24:58 <shachaf> Don't break mirrors or anything like that.
05:26:24 <elliott> can you id anything in a shop
05:26:27 <elliott> even if it's a potion shope
05:29:29 <elliott> do you want to see something terrible, monqy
05:29:32 <shachaf> elliott: You mean by price?
05:29:40 <elliott> shachaf: Right. (Is price-iding dumb?)
05:29:41 <shachaf> You can only sell things that belong in that shop in that shop.
05:29:46 <shachaf> And price-iding isn't always reliable.
05:29:57 <shachaf> I'm usually too lazy to do it except for things like lamps.
05:30:06 <elliott> monqy: "/r/haskell's current logo" http://a.thumbs.redditmedia.com/nb6gZnmUj6jhotix.png
05:30:49 <elliott> shachaf: So if I'm in a potion shop and everything is just "potion", I should ignore it for now, right? :p
05:30:53 <elliott> (Note to self: It's on D:3.)
05:33:54 <elliott> shachaf: how do i use whistle
05:34:22 <elliott> shachaf: why isn't apply and zap the same
05:34:41 <shachaf> elliott: (a)pplying a wand is for breaking it.
05:35:10 <elliott> coppro: apparently people complained when acehack unified armour/jewellery putting-on-and-taking-off
05:35:38 <shachaf> elliott: (A) both takes off and removes
05:37:26 <elliott> shachaf: "scroll of identify"
05:37:59 <quintopia> !bfjoust poke http://sprunge.us/hfcc
05:38:02 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_poke: 48.3
05:41:58 <elliott> monqy: guess waht time it is
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05:45:38 <elliott> monqy: hehehehehe i thought squarelos was
05:45:40 <elliott> a fungus with items under it
05:51:25 <elliott> shachaf: So should I be killing things and dragging them all the way to an altar?
05:51:33 <elliott> Or just saccing what I happen to kill on the level with the altar?
05:51:52 <shachaf> elliott: Depends on what you want to do.
05:52:22 <shachaf> Dragging things is ineffective because you only have N turns from the time they die to the time you can sacrifice them.
05:52:41 <shachaf> So you can -- I don't know, do something.
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05:52:54 <shachaf> Maybe read your cursed scroll of create monster near the altar!
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05:55:15 <elliott> shachaf: Rephrase: What's the usual thing to do?
05:59:50 <elliott> shachaf: A looking glass shatters into a thousand pieces!--More--
05:59:54 <elliott> Remember what you said about not breaking mirrors?
06:00:23 <shachaf> elliott: I guess "don't cast force bolt at water nymphs" would have been more useful advice?
06:00:34 <elliott> shachaf: Do I have teleportitis. :(
06:00:41 <shachaf> elliott: Did you feel jumpy?
06:00:54 <elliott> How can I stop having teleportitis?
06:01:05 <shachaf> Better to get teleportcontrolitis.
06:01:14 <shachaf> If you have a ring or something for that.
06:01:27 <shachaf> At XL 17 you get it intrinsically.
06:01:40 <elliott> shachaf: Yes, but I don't want to be bothered by HEY TELEPORT WHERE every N turns.
06:01:45 <shachaf> "it's good to be a wzimard"
06:01:46 <elliott> (I realise it's "optimal" in some sense.)
06:02:01 <shachaf> elliott: Have you experienced controlledteleportitis in NetHack?
06:02:07 <shachaf> It's actually not that bad.
06:02:15 <elliott> Do you have to decide where to teleport every ~80 turns?
06:02:25 <shachaf> But I remember it's not that bad.
06:02:33 <shachaf> I don't know about the number 80, that is.
06:02:39 <elliott> "Every game turn, there is a 1/85 chance you will try to teleport. This does not cost nutrition or energy. [1]"
06:02:55 <shachaf> Normally you're "going somewhere" anyway, so teleportitis only helps!
06:03:06 <shachaf> It's very hard to lose intrinsics in NetHack.
06:03:12 <shachaf> Shouldn't have eaten that nymph!
06:04:10 <elliott> It hasn't been enough turns for that.
06:04:12 <elliott> NetHack needs more chokepoints.
06:04:20 <shachaf> elliott: You can ^T, maybe?
06:04:33 <elliott> shachaf: Thank you, pressing ^T just killed me.
06:04:43 <shachaf> I told you I was going to look, right?
06:04:53 <shachaf> You didn't tell me you were Pw:15!
06:05:07 <elliott> It's so much like cheating that I forget it's possible.
06:05:12 <shachaf> I forgot about Elbereth(TM).
06:05:25 <shachaf> Before your first ascension you're allowed Elbereth, like, for free, man.
06:05:31 <elliott> "The only cure is to have it stolen by a gremlin, at night."
06:06:13 <shachaf> I don't have INterhacka set up here. :-(
06:07:07 <elliott> Unfortunately that single rectangle is the entire dungeon.
06:07:15 <elliott> I think this means you win.
06:07:59 <shachaf> I have automatic searching.
06:08:04 <shachaf> "'ti's''s good to be a ranger"
06:08:46 <elliott> Player shachaf does not have any scores in the top 2000.
06:08:53 <shachaf> elliott: "why is my font so bad " :(
06:09:06 <shachaf> elliott: I haven't played games since the Great High Score Reset of 2012-or-so.
06:09:06 <elliott> it's probably not as bad as mine
06:09:21 <shachaf> elliott: My font is fine except the 0 looks like a O. :-(
06:09:36 <elliott> monqy: did you receive my mail btw
06:09:50 <shachaf> Ooh, can I send monqy mail?
06:09:59 <elliott> shachaf: my font: http://ompldr.org/vZTNpNw
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06:11:02 <elliott> It's unhinted and rendered badly.
06:12:09 <elliott> monqy: are you enjoying shachaf's game i know i am
06:12:39 <elliott> this is shachaf's first game since 2011-01 aparently!
06:12:57 <shachaf> Don't emlook at my shitory!!
06:13:17 <elliott> (I presume the space is part of the word.)
06:13:18 <shachaf> elliott: The lag is too great to play NetHack. :-((
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06:13:30 <elliott> shachaf: That just means you get to think more every turn.
06:13:37 <elliott> I learned that from shachaf.
06:13:47 <shachaf> Don't listen to anything shachaf tells youa bout NetHack.
06:14:08 <shachaf> Also, the round-trip latency is about 3 seconds now.
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06:14:15 <elliott> What continent are you even in?
06:14:50 <Sgeo> WHY would anyone think that "publically traded" == "anyone can see your information"
06:14:53 <shachaf> (The problem is on my side.)
06:15:04 <Sgeo> http://www.thatsnonsense.com/view.php?id=1563
06:15:16 <Sgeo> Just saw two FB friends post the piece of silliness
06:15:18 <shachaf> OK, this latency is too great to play.
06:15:38 <elliott> shachaf: You planned this from the start!
06:15:54 <shachaf> elliott: Nope! It's a tragtedy.
06:16:45 <elliott> shachaf: I'll farm some puddings for you.
06:17:10 <elliott> I would be unhappy and not farm puddings if you played more.
06:17:21 <pikhq> Gimmick! is a fucking awesome game. It is also psychotically hard.
06:17:51 <pikhq> And does things I thought impossible on the NES.
06:18:24 <elliott> shachaf: Did you know I once watched Wooble farm puddings on the planes?
06:18:32 <elliott> To sacrifice. Or something.
06:19:54 <coppro> elliott: what should I wish for?
06:20:12 <coppro> I'm standing on the altar on Astral
06:20:16 <coppro> I just want something cool
06:20:21 <coppro> I have a wish and probably another one too
06:20:39 <coppro> and my replay is busted
06:20:57 <elliott> include "stupid joke wish"
06:21:16 <elliott> coppro: blessed greased fixed slime mold
06:21:17 <quintopia> !bfjoust poke http://sprunge.us/GBCZ
06:21:20 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_poke: 48.4
06:21:27 <coppro> hmm... seems too pedestrian
06:21:29 <elliott> coppro: (are you going to be the first NH4 ascension?)
06:22:07 <elliott> coppro: 57.4 blessed greased fixed +9 slime molds of love called hungerbane
06:22:31 <monqy> maybe i;l play neth ack now
06:23:08 <elliott> go to http://alt.org/nethack/webconf/nhrc_edit.php
06:23:40 <elliott> it turns on gold autopickup, names yr cat squarelos
06:23:45 <elliott> (you can name your cat anything you want instead)
06:24:05 <elliott> puts --more--s on bad things
06:24:25 <elliott> oh and requires "yes" instead of "y" for some scary things
06:24:26 <monqy> what should i play !
06:24:33 <elliott> shachaf: what should monqy play
06:24:34 <coppro> I know what I will wish for
06:24:40 <elliott> shachaf: you know MuCK in crawl
06:24:40 <coppro> when it becomes safe to connect to my game again
06:24:45 <elliott> what's the equivalent of MuCK in NetHack
06:25:13 <elliott> monqy: "n e way" if you want ~easy melee~ you can play valkyrie dwarf
06:25:18 <elliott> (`the mdfi of nethack' - me, just now)
06:25:25 <elliott> play a wizard! they're fun!
06:25:35 <monqy> i want shachaf's xpert opinion
06:25:41 <monqy> shachaf: xpert opinion pls
06:25:52 <monqy> he's probably ascended
06:26:00 <monqy> that's more than both of us put together
06:26:05 <monqy> i think he knows what he's talking about
06:26:11 <monqy> if he was talking!!
06:26:28 <elliott> ais523 has ascended none and played 2 (joke is he doesn't play on NAO)
06:27:07 <elliott> monqy: nethack is weird just play a valkyrie or a wizard
06:27:27 <elliott> ~it doesn't really matter~
06:27:45 <elliott> did you end up with a dwarf valkyrie with random???
06:27:54 <elliott> or did you hit random after picking those
06:28:00 <monqy> 23:27:45 <elliott> did you end up with a dwarf valkyrie with random???
06:28:01 <monqy> 23:27:53 <monqy> yes
06:28:05 <coppro> I need to write menucolors for nh4
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06:28:38 <elliott> monqy: (nothing autopickups except gold)
06:28:44 <elliott> (but there's less floor trash than crawl so)
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06:30:16 <shachaf> monqy: xpert opinion on what
06:30:47 <elliott> shachaf: what is the nethack equivalent of muck
06:31:14 <elliott> you've played kock but not muck. shame. shame on you.
06:31:26 <elliott> shachaf: mummy chaos knight. mummy, wroships xom
06:31:34 <elliott> shachaf: mummy chaos knight. mummy, wroships xom
06:31:52 <elliott> this is bad because xom likes to confuse you
06:31:59 <elliott> so they have "great fun" getting out of confusion
06:32:06 <elliott> but it's bad in a beautiful way which monqy is probably better at articulating than i am
06:32:15 <elliott> monqy: i like how your cat is named squarelos and also you are named squarelos
06:32:35 <elliott> monqy: stop fighting while
06:32:41 <monqy> how does food work
06:32:43 <shachaf> elliott: "s q u a r e l o s e p t i o n" " reddit mode"
06:32:55 <elliott> you pass out every few turns
06:33:11 <elliott> if you really need food pray
06:33:21 <elliott> shachaf: so what's the nethack equivalent of muck!!!
06:34:28 <elliott> monqy: wow do you play every game this stupidly fast
06:35:13 <elliott> but you shattered the things ha ha
06:35:20 <elliott> !nick chestpickerupperers monqy
06:35:28 <elliott> 07:34 <elliott> monqy: wow do you play every game this stupidly fast
06:35:39 <monqy> this is stupidly fast?
06:35:47 <monqy> i dont have enough pw
06:37:02 <monqy> how much damage do those jerks do
06:37:04 <monqy> i dont know when to heal
06:37:10 <elliott> monqy: maybe you should look it up!!!
06:37:10 <monqy> that wasnt fast at all dummy !!! i just dove a bit
06:37:20 <monqy> i also dont want to not dive
06:37:30 <monqy> ok then i dont want to not die
06:37:45 <elliott> diving would be digging for victory or w/e
06:37:50 <monqy> i didnt have a wand
06:38:05 <monqy> im not playing nethack seriously i thought you understood this
06:38:23 <elliott> monqy: maybe you didn't understand that your requirement to play was a serious one!
06:38:31 <elliott> remember that requirement???
06:38:34 <monqy> well then this sucks and i'm not playing
06:38:44 <monqy> i thought you understood i didn't want to play nethack seriously
06:38:48 <elliott> you can't subvert a requirement!
06:39:40 <elliott> monqy: do you know how to dig for victory there's a "great article on it"
06:39:51 <elliott> http://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Digging_for_victory "now you know"
06:40:57 <elliott> im going to join #nethack and tell everyone to look at this person called squarelos
06:41:56 <elliott> shachaf: anyway now you have to play more
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06:56:13 <elliott> coppro: what did you wish for btw
06:56:23 <coppro> blessed fixed greased +3 dunce cap
06:56:58 <elliott> blessed fixed greased +3 fake plastic imitation of the amulet of yendor
06:57:04 <elliott> note to self: wish for that sometime
06:58:09 <coppro> elliott: already had a fpiotaoy
06:58:25 <elliott> but was it blessed fixed greased +3
06:58:49 <coppro> ... I'm making a pokemon reference
06:59:01 <elliott> im tired and its been years since i played pokemon!!!
06:59:25 <coppro> also I think I got all the words wrong
06:59:31 <coppro> it's the thought that counts though
07:02:36 <coppro> (go see my #1 ascension, it's glorious)
07:02:49 <coppro> also don't try to watch the replay
07:04:08 <elliott> also im not watching your entire game unless its short sorry
07:04:16 <elliott> the only roguelike recordings i watch multiple hours of are monqy's
07:04:51 <elliott> coppro: you should play my roguelike it's "great" - testimony by me
07:10:11 <elliott> @tell oerjan I like that "bug fix" in the modified C Deadfish interpreter.
07:22:55 <Sgeo> It's only now processing in my mind that everyone seems to be getting into the "radical UI redesign" thing, not just GNOME and Ubuntu
07:23:03 <Sgeo> And by that, I mean that Windows is doing it
07:27:30 <Gregor> Cheers from Beijing, everybody.
07:27:30 <lambdabot> Gregor: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
07:27:31 <calamari> I will continue running TDE as long as I'm able
07:27:34 <lambdabot> quintopia said 13h 14m 4s ago: *stab stabbity stab*
07:27:40 <Gregor> quintopia: That's not very nice :(
07:29:52 <lambdabot> shachaf asked 14s ago: *hi hiity hi*
07:30:34 <shachaf> Gregor: "Gregor" is a much better nick than "Friendship".
07:30:51 <Gregor> But it's not a nick, it's my bloody name X-D
07:31:19 <Gregor> calamari: I'm connected via an SSH tunnel ;)
07:32:07 <calamari> good thinking.. that way if people start talking about t squares, you don't disappear
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07:37:24 <calamari> if you find the pony factory, please buy me a derpy ;)
07:40:11 <Gregor> I'm rediscovering the fun of being stared at by everyone.
07:40:30 <Gregor> And enjoying how stupidly inexpensive everything is.
07:41:33 <Gregor> No complaints. I'm not blown away, but I haven't really gone anywhere that I expect to blow me away.
07:41:51 <Gregor> I went to a beef noodle place and got the most expensive item on the menu.
07:42:00 <pikhq> Gregor: Oh, you're in 北京? Fun.
07:42:09 <pikhq> Gregor: Imma 漢字 at you a bit.
07:43:09 <pikhq> "Beijing" and "hanzi", respectively, BTW.
07:43:21 <Gregor> calamari: And my dinner the previous night came out to a grand total of $5.
07:43:45 <pikhq> ("Pekin" and "kanji" in Japanese, if you must have that, too)
07:45:37 <Gregor> Unfortunately, there seems to be no way from outside of a restaurant to determine if they have an English menu.
07:46:05 <Gregor> Assuredly the staff won't speak English, but I can point at the menu and they can write down the total price and point at that, but all that still needs an English menu to start with X-D
07:47:45 <Gregor> Think I could go to a Thai restaurant, poorly mispronounce the Thai name for something, and still get it? :)
07:48:31 <pikhq> "英語単菜？" I think would work, but I make no guarantees of that being correct Mandarin.
07:48:55 <pikhq> Also, it is definitely wrong mainland Mandarin, because I don't know how to enter simplified glyphs.
07:49:07 <calamari> can google goggles translate chinese?
07:49:27 <Gregor> Oh, that's a thought ... that requires net though, right?
07:49:37 <Gregor> Then it can't for me :)
07:50:43 <pikhq> Google Translate suggests it's "英文菜単", which makes sense.
07:51:09 <pikhq> "yīngwén càidān", Mandarin reading...
07:51:29 <pikhq> "eibun saitan", Japanese.
07:51:36 <Gregor> "English dishes radiolabeling"
07:52:08 <Gregor> pikhq: I don't know how to interpret the answer to that, since in Mandarin/Chinese you answer "yes" by repeating the verb and there's no verb there.
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07:53:03 <Gregor> Nǐ yǒu yīngwén càidān ma?
07:55:07 <pikhq> Dang I could learn Mandarin quickly. :P
07:55:28 <Gregor> I just learned two new words, woooh X-D
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07:57:11 <pikhq> And further demonstrates my ability to vaguely fake understanding written Chinese just by knowing that Chinese is SVO, not SOV.
07:57:16 <calamari> and the survey says: google goggles fails at recognizing chinese characters
07:58:02 <Gregor> The relationship between Chinese and Japanese is truly strange.
07:58:32 <calamari> lots of very similar words afaik
07:59:02 <pikhq> Gregor: It's basically the relationship between Latin and English.
07:59:25 <pikhq> ... Except *Japanese* is the one with the more complicated grammar.
08:00:33 <pikhq> FYI, that sentence in Japanese would be "貴方は英語のメニューが有りますか。", "anata wa eigo no menyū ga arimasu ka."
08:01:21 <pikhq> (well, you might say it more casually as "英語のメニューが有る？", "eigo no menyū ga aru?")
08:01:26 <Gregor> pikhq: Idonno, the fact that it's a logography instead of an alphabet makes it seem stranger to me.
08:02:18 <pikhq> Gregor: On the part of Chinese, it's a bit more like a syllabary that's got logographic elements...
08:02:40 <pikhq> Gregor: Each glyph maps to a syllable, and (almost) all morphemes are single syllables.
08:02:53 <pikhq> (this is not the case in Japanese)
08:03:35 <Gregor> So, there are words formed of multiple symbols of which the individual symbols may themselves be unrelated words?
08:03:47 <Gregor> (At least in principle, if not necessarily in practice)
08:04:06 <pikhq> Though they're rare and edge cases, from what I understand of Chinese, *yes*.
08:04:09 <mroman> 日 <- day. 日本 <- japan. 本 <- book
08:04:28 <pikhq> Worse, there's a couple that are composed of characters that are *never used outside of that specific word*.
08:04:29 <Gregor> OK, I had no idea. That's like Ancient Egyptian, actually.
08:04:35 <mroman> also they are pronunced differently ;)
08:04:44 <pikhq> Japanese gets things much more confusing.
08:05:15 <pikhq> They take each glyph's semantic components and fudge it to apply to Japanese. And then borrow a lot of words from Chinese, and write them as the Chinese would.
08:05:40 <pikhq> ... Over the course of centuries, with Japanese *and* Chinese pronunciation changing over time.
08:06:15 <pikhq> So, where Chinese has each glyph mapping to a single syllable, Japanese has each glyph mapping to anywhere from 1 to 10 different *strings*.
08:07:31 <pikhq> 上 is perhaps the worst. ue, noboru, nobori, agaru, ageru, jou... Those are just the readings off the top of my head.
08:09:04 <pikhq> By the way, that character just means "up".
08:11:05 <elliott> coppro: Why doesn't NetHack have Crawl's 5?
08:11:10 <pikhq> Dictionary suggests: agari, -agari, agaru, -agaru, ageru, -ageru, ue, -ue, uwa-, kami, nobosu, noboseru, nobori, noboru, yosu, shan, shou, jou, aoi, age, i, ka, kaki, kazu, kan, kou, hotsu.
08:11:25 <pikhq> (everything after "jou" is name-only, though)
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08:14:23 <pikhq> 上がり、上がる、上げる、上、上、上、上す、上せる、上り、上る、上す、上、上、上、上、上、上、上、上、上、上、上、上、上、上 written in kanji & kana...
08:14:26 <elliott> You read: "Someone once ? id th?t wh?t gces up < right c?me cc?n >".--More--
08:14:56 <Vorpal> elliott, nethack or crawl?
08:15:25 <Vorpal> trying to remember what that is about, haven't played nethack for ages
08:15:39 <Vorpal> where did you find it? tombstone?
08:15:49 <pikhq> Gregor: And there's *only one reading of that in Mandarin*! This makes me weep tears of joy.
08:15:59 <elliott> Vorpal: Just on the floor, I think.
08:16:59 <elliott> Deewiant: It rests for 100 turns, or until something happens (where "something happens" includes "full MP/HP").
08:17:19 <elliott> You can just press it and your HP zooms up; it rarely takes more than three presses to get it up unless you're disturbed or poisoned.
08:17:33 <elliott> With NetHack I have to press 50. a lot and it goes so slowly and wastes time after I end up at full HP. :(
08:17:54 <Deewiant> Doesn't NetHack have something like that with 5. or was it ADOM or what that had the convenient 5
08:18:05 <Vorpal> patch nethack to fix it?
08:18:06 <elliott> 5. would rest for five turns
08:18:49 <Deewiant> In some roguelike you can press e.g. 56 on the numpad and it goes east until it sees something new... it's probably NH or ADOM but I forget which.
08:20:20 <elliott> Deewiant: Numpad 5 does not exist.
08:20:27 <elliott> Anyway, that's shift+direction
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08:22:05 <Vorpal> elliott, are you playing on nao?
08:22:15 <elliott> Yes. I just died. But now I'm playing again.
08:22:41 <elliott> What, squarelos died *already*?
08:23:49 <elliott> RIP squarelos, killed by a dart.
08:29:25 <elliott> I usually don't bother worrying about hunger until I end up weak.
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08:29:38 <elliott> Although being satiated is nice.
08:29:46 <elliott> I forgot you're not meant to eat dogs or cats.
08:31:46 <elliott> They're less boring than the dungeon.
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08:32:43 <Vorpal> elliott, aiee, don't pick up unidentified gray stones
08:33:15 <Vorpal> being unobservant is lethal in nethac
08:33:39 <elliott> I rather suspect it's the only thing that is lethal.
08:34:10 <elliott> Vorpal: Can I get away with skipping Sokoban?
08:34:29 <Vorpal> you don't need to do sokoban, but it is actually not that hard IMO
08:34:37 <Vorpal> and it is kind of useful to do
08:34:38 <elliott> It's not hard, it's just boring. I use spoilers.
08:35:27 <Vorpal> elliott, why are you playing wiz?
08:36:04 <elliott> good thing my god loves me
08:36:08 <Vorpal> elliott, I wasn't watching, what did you eat?
08:36:19 <elliott> gnome corpse, but I had just done 50. a bunch to restore points first
08:37:07 <elliott> The mines have a lot better layout than the dungeon.
08:37:48 <Vorpal> elliott, is it a bone level?
08:38:14 <elliott> Wow, my cat's ghost is seriously about to kill me.
08:38:34 <Vorpal> elliott, one of those scrolls could probably save you
08:38:41 <Vorpal> but who knows which one
08:38:49 <elliott> My potion of healing saved me. :p
08:39:01 <elliott> (I used a consumable; that means I've lost.)
08:39:25 <elliott> Every consumable you use means you've done something wrong. In good games, at least.
08:39:44 <elliott> Should have dug for victory.
08:39:52 <elliott> Skipped it before you said that.
08:40:11 <Vorpal> yeah, trying to remember the url though
08:40:47 <elliott> http://alt.org/nethack/player-all.php?player=ehird
08:41:18 <elliott> http://alt.org/nethack/userdata/e/ehird/dumplog/1338884538.nh343.txt
08:41:28 <elliott> H - an uncursed worthless piece of red glass
08:41:54 <Vorpal> where did the gray stone go?
08:42:37 <Vorpal> ah, so not a loadstone (or a blessed one when you picked it up)
08:42:56 <Vorpal> anyway I like the "You were lucky (1) You are dead"
08:43:23 <elliott> Did you know I played NetHack six times on 2012-04-15, and don't remember it in the slightest?
08:43:44 <elliott> Oh, I just checked http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/2012-04-15.
08:44:28 <elliott> Vorpal: Anyway, NetHack is boring.
08:45:05 <elliott> All you have to do is repeatedly do the obvious thing and double-check everything at each step so you don't make a mistake out of boredom.
08:45:07 <Vorpal> but yeah, I haven't played it in over a year now
08:45:14 <elliott> (Okay, this might be less true later on.)
08:45:18 <elliott> (But I'm too bored to get there.)
08:46:04 <elliott> I like Crawl more, even though its earlygame is even worse.
08:46:13 <elliott> At least it practically automates it for you.
08:46:23 <Vorpal> hm, haven't got around to playing crawl yet
08:46:52 <elliott> It has a bunch of crappy flaws and the earlygame is awful and there's lots of stupid things.
08:47:10 <elliott> But it's fun, approx. from the first rune onwards.
08:47:30 <elliott> Crawl Light is better except for the ways in which it's worse, although I'm trying to correct those by prodding dtsund.
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08:47:58 <elliott> Vorpal: Anyway, if you do play Crawl, CDO has low lag in Europe.
08:48:21 <elliott> (Also, the default settings are basically reasonable; you don't need to tweak them. And don't play hugeterm.)
08:48:30 <Vorpal> I generally start playing locally while I'm learning the game
08:48:50 <elliott> hugeterm = terminal larger than 80x24.
08:48:54 <elliott> Messes up ttyrecs. Is uncool.
08:49:19 <elliott> Your LOS is limited enough that it doesn't help you at all in Crawl, anyway.
08:49:23 <Vorpal> as in many chars wide / high
08:49:26 <elliott> (And the message list is several lines long anyway.)
08:49:42 <Vorpal> anyway I doubt I will have time to play crawl any time soon
08:49:51 <Vorpal> btw seen the last humble bundle? It is quite amazing
08:50:02 <elliott> Well, don't play Crawl if you're going to use hugeterm.
08:50:30 <Vorpal> amnesia, limbo, bastion, psychonauts and some game I forgot the name of
08:51:24 <Vorpal> I owned bastion before already, excellent game. Bought the bundle because I wanted Psyconauts. Which turned out to be just as awesome as I had heard it was.
08:53:12 <Vorpal> anyway I need to leave, bye. Will be back in the afternoon
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09:31:42 <shachaf> "psychonauts = awesomenauts" - Vorpal
09:35:00 <shachaf> elliott: "which it is \"btw\""
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09:36:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover can't play Psychonauts.
09:37:11 <elliott> shachaf: Hey, what attributes can a cell have with standard ANSI stuff?
09:37:19 <elliott> Colour, bold/high intensity, what else?
09:37:27 <elliott> I guess italic? At least, some terminals can do italic.
09:37:44 <elliott> Oh, background colour, of course. (Which can also be high intensity? I guess that's an attribute of the colour, rather than of the glyph itself.)
09:37:58 <elliott> shachaf: I know that high intensity backgrounds show as bright for some and blinking for others.
09:38:03 <elliott> So I guess they're represented by the same thing(?)
09:38:19 <elliott> Well, you know what they say.
09:38:23 <elliott> ASCII silly question, get a silly ANSI.
09:38:24 <shachaf> I think blink is its own thing?
09:38:42 <shachaf> elliott: Did you ask that question just to say that?
09:39:09 <elliott> I'm actually implementing it now.
09:39:18 <elliott> , viewOld :: Vector Cell(Char, Attribute)
09:39:26 <elliott> That's my editor window right now.
09:39:39 <elliott> Does that mean I get points?
09:40:14 <elliott> Writing my simultaneous-turn roguelike.
09:40:16 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: Why can't you play Psychonauts?
09:40:17 <elliott> I didn't want to use curses.
09:40:36 <shachaf> elliott: Can you do the display part as a completely separate program, please?
09:40:37 <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, floating point exception if I talk to Oleander right at the start.
09:40:45 <shachaf> Like the nethack-emacs thing.
09:40:48 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: Which version?
09:41:16 <elliott> shachaf: I will be fully separating display and what-you-can-see calculation (in fact, I've devoted a lot of thought to ways to do that nicely); however, I don't really feel like limiting my communication methods to text.
09:41:25 <elliott> So they'll be linked into the same binary, because Unix can't do anything else.
09:41:43 <shachaf> nethack-emacs does S-expressions?
09:41:50 <elliott> (Also, by "text" I mean "bytes".)
09:41:51 <shachaf> That's, like, totally not text.
09:41:53 <elliott> shachaf: Serialised as bytes.
09:42:05 <elliott> (De)serialisation code is a kludge.
09:42:15 <elliott> I'm too lazy for that shit, man.
09:42:24 <shachaf> Not as much of a kludge as LINKING IT INTO THE SAME BINARY.
09:42:44 <elliott> I suppose you write everything in shell, then, if linking is too much coupling for you?
09:42:46 <shachaf> Or, "as they say on the internet", "baking it in"
09:42:48 <elliott> shachaf: The version is whatever comes with the HB.
09:42:49 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: Well, what platform?
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09:43:15 <shachaf> elliott: The point is, don't make it NetHack, OK?
09:43:16 <elliott> shachaf: My Real Roguelike will have a machine-readable-and-writable kludge UI for bots.
09:43:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Um... I'm running it on Arch, if that's what you mean?
09:43:25 <elliott> But this isn't going to be my Real Roguelike.
09:43:30 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, there's your problem.
09:43:32 <elliott> This is just an experiment.
09:43:36 <shachaf> You should run it on Windows.
09:43:46 <elliott> I might end up doing the simultaneous-turn thing in my Real Roguelike.
09:43:53 <elliott> shachaf: Have I told you about the simultaneous-turn thing?
09:44:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: (Seriously though, you should try it on Windows. It works for Skyrim.)
09:44:03 <shachaf> But now is too late for that.
09:44:14 <elliott> shachaf: OK, so, you know in roguelikes, you and monsters get turns in a round-robin sort of order thing?
09:44:16 <shachaf> elliott: No, seriously. I'm going to sleep.
09:44:21 <elliott> So when you do something, every other monster gets to see what you did?
09:44:24 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, eventually when I feel like using Windows again
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09:44:31 <elliott> shachaf: Imagine if, instead, everybody decided on their turn simultaneously.
09:44:40 <elliott> So, for instance, you could sidestep ranged attacks on the same turn they're made.
09:44:48 <elliott> Or have a chance of dodging melee attacks by moving during combat.
09:45:01 <elliott> Or have two offensive explody spells collide in midair.
09:45:08 <elliott> That's the power of SIMULTANEOUS-TURN ROGUELIKES!
09:45:15 <elliott> It sounds like fun. So I'm writing a little roguelike to test it out.
09:45:32 <elliott> But it's also a pain to code, because you have to handle all these interactions of simultaneous actions.
09:45:40 <elliott> And that's pretty much all.
09:46:07 <shachaf> The monsters are now totally exposed to the power of the simultaneous-turn roguelike.
09:46:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, maybe if I make it use the system libSDL and libopenal.
09:47:07 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: Psychonauts is, like, worth it, man.
09:47:15 <shachaf> elliott: Have you played Psychonauts?
09:47:30 <shachaf> Has anyone told you what a depressing game it was?
09:47:42 <Phantom_Hoover> My first impressions weren't great, but that was mainly just because I thought the interface was clumsily diegetic.
09:47:52 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, the interface is terrible.
09:48:00 <shachaf> And you have to get past the first few worlds before it gets interesting.
09:48:53 <shachaf> But you should do it anyway.
09:49:55 <elliott> shachaf: I bet Psychonauts isn't as good as Rayman 2.
09:50:05 <shachaf> elliott: I bet you're wrong.
09:50:20 <elliott> What? No. Rayman 2 is ~the best 3D platforming game of all time.
09:50:25 <shachaf> Wait, do you mean as a game or as an "experience"?
09:50:35 <shachaf> elliott: I've never played Rayman 2, but I don't like 3D platformers much.
09:50:49 <elliott> (It's different because it's good.)
09:50:55 <shachaf> You know what else is different?
09:51:11 <shachaf> "Psychonauts: It's different"
09:51:34 <elliott> (Rayman 3 is also Different! And good. (Possibly a better game? But a less... I don't know the word.))
09:51:48 <elliott> (It's better as a game but perhaps less impressive as an experience, I guess. Your terminology wins.)
09:51:54 <shachaf> elliott: Did you get the HB thing?
09:53:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Er, the average is probably going to go up over time from now.
09:53:32 <elliott> So I'll end up paying more.
09:54:29 <elliott> I'll buy it later when the whim takes me.
09:54:40 <elliott> I don't feel like cheapskating this one, anyway.
09:55:20 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANSI_escape_code#CSI_codes guurhg
09:55:46 <shachaf> elliott: Just wait until you hear about "the other" escape codes.
09:56:17 <shachaf> Like the ones used for the mouse.
09:56:24 <elliott> shachaf: Good thing I don't care about the mouse!
09:56:50 <shachaf> "for a good time echo -e '\e(0'"
09:56:55 <elliott> shachaf: Is there a library you can link with that lets you output ANSI stuff and it displays in an SDL window stuff?
09:57:09 <elliott> That would be nice. For running on platforms without convenient terminal things.
09:57:09 <shachaf> Did you have the good time yet?
09:57:54 <shachaf> "for a good time echo $'\e(0'"
09:58:02 <elliott> ␉▒⎽-3.2$ A ≤␊⎽, ├␋⎽ ├␋┼±.
09:58:04 <elliott> ␉▒⎽: A: ␌⎺└└▒┼␍ ┼⎺├ °⎺┤┼␍
09:58:22 <shachaf> It's the line-drawing thing!
09:58:29 <shachaf> Perfect for drawing the walls of a dungeon in NetHack.
09:58:37 <elliott> shachaf: Or you could just: use Unicode!
09:59:17 <shachaf> elliott: Just so you know, your paste messed up my IRC client.
10:00:40 <shachaf> elliott: Play Psychonauts and then tell me whether Rayman 2 is better.
10:00:46 <itidus20> "Play is generally turnbased in abstract chess(what i called it before i learned fairy chess existed). A way to have simultaneous movement however is for each player to write down their move and present them together."
10:01:01 <elliott> OK, but Rayman 2 has childhood and nostalgia on its side.
10:01:05 <shachaf> If it is I'll make serious consideration to acquire it and play it.
10:01:15 <shachaf> elliott: Hah! Psychonauts doesn't!
10:01:16 <itidus20> "Any conflicts could be resolved by repeating the process. repeated conflicts could be resolved by banning that move for all teams."
10:01:24 <elliott> shachaf: Yes. So it'll probably lose :)
10:01:38 <itidus20> that last sentence sounds like nonsense actually
10:01:54 <elliott> shachaf: (Honestly, Rayman 2's gameplay is pretty simple. But it's fun.)
10:02:20 <elliott> (Rayman 3's is more elaborate and probably funner, but Rayman 2 has more nostalgia on its side.)
10:02:43 <shachaf> I talk about how it's good even though I only played it within the last few years at most.
10:03:51 <itidus20> elliott: so, i mean if one was playing a multiplayer roguelike.. each player would write down their move and pass it to an independant game master, who would announce the outcome of that turn
10:04:07 <elliott> shachaf: Well, I mean... I only played Rayman 2 in like... god, I forget years.
10:04:14 <elliott> But I only played Rayman 3 in like 2003! Or 2004.
10:04:29 <elliott> That's, like, three, uh, nine years ag— WOW nine fucking years?? Jesus fucking christ
10:08:28 <itidus20> so what happens if 2 mobs(?) try to occupy the same square in the same turn?
10:08:50 <elliott> shachaf: Oh, there's underline too.
10:08:54 <elliott> shachaf: Why is inversion an attribute?
10:09:00 <elliott> Couldn't you just swap background and foreground?
10:09:24 <elliott> itidus20: One wins. Possibly it's treated as a scuffle of some kind and one or both of them accrue damage.
10:15:18 <shachaf> This is also how NetHack works.
10:15:35 <shachaf> Sometimes you try to move into an empty square to find out that your pet moved into it just before you did.
10:18:14 <elliott> NetHack is supposed to be turn-based.
10:18:17 <elliott> I like how you are sleeping.
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10:22:15 <elliott> shachaf: Are you sleeping soundly?
10:22:42 <shachaf> elliott: I wish I was. :-(
10:25:49 <shachaf> You asked if I was sleeping soundly.
10:25:53 <shachaf> Maybe *you* were making a joke.
10:26:38 <elliott> I guess it's what they say:
10:26:43 <elliott> ASCII silly question, get a silly ANSI.
10:28:00 <elliott> shachaf: You'd watch PH play NetHack right now, right?
10:29:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Psychonauts still gives an FP exception even without its own libraries.
10:30:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: W i n d o w s
10:30:25 <shachaf> elliott: No, I'm going to sleep.
10:30:29 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: You can do it!
10:30:51 <elliott> <bold>who went th</bold>ere i went there
10:31:45 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: And don't give up on it immediately this time when you get it running.
10:31:47 <itidus20> i like how they call themselves america when excluding canada
10:31:58 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: Get past the levitation world at least.
10:32:10 <shachaf> Also the game is full of easter eggs that you should look for.
10:32:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I like how you don't use statuscolors.
10:32:32 <shachaf> Like the thing where everyone turns out to be depressed and suicidal! That's a good easter egg.
10:33:21 <itidus20> the best easter eggs are made of chocolate
10:33:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I like how you saved a game on D:2.
10:33:38 <elliott> So your HP would go red when it was low.
10:34:07 <itidus20> nah i liked easter more pre-diabetes
10:34:36 <itidus20> post-diabetes it's all about avoiding relatives and drinking diet coke
10:35:01 <itidus20> but my diabetes isn't under control well enough for me to avoid sugar...
10:35:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Do you use numpad.
10:36:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You have played literally 42 games of NetHack ever wow you are so bad.
10:36:42 <itidus20> so many choices on the numpad /789 8456 5123
10:36:44 <shachaf> elliott: How many games have you played;
10:37:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Nice burdening.
10:37:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You should read that scroll!
10:37:33 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: Get you-know-what set up.
10:37:42 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: Don't listen to elliott.
10:37:48 <Phantom_Hoover> You know what I'm going to do stupid things just so you get annoyed at me.
10:37:50 <shachaf> The word "elliott" is derived from the word "lie"
10:38:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That's a good thing to say before doing stupid thing unintentionally.
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10:42:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You look like you know what you're doing even less than I do.
10:42:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Well I know that several of the things I'm doing are stupid, see above.
10:42:31 <Taneb> So... slightly more than I do?
10:42:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: 11:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That's a good thing to say before doing stupid thing unintentionally.
10:43:23 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't eat mold corpses when I'm playing sensibly, for one thing.
10:43:37 <Phantom_Hoover> And I never read random scrolls or drink random potions.
10:44:19 <itidus20> i find that the place i live doesn't have nearly enough random scrolls or potions for my liking
10:44:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You should dig for victory.
10:45:21 <itidus20> go into your backyard and break a branch off a tree!
10:45:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You should follow the guide on [[nethackwiki:Digging for victory]].
10:45:57 <elliott> Also your HP is still 35 so I'm not sure why you are worrying.
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10:52:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: congrats you "lose"
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11:22:24 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, wait you can pray to get rid of food poisoning
11:22:39 <elliott> you sure do suck at nethack
11:28:57 <elliott> Deewiant: Did you know shachaf ascended atheist wishless? Observe:
11:32:12 <HackEgo> 2012-04-15.txt:06:37:52: <shachaf> You were an atheist
11:32:24 <HackEgo> 2012-04-15.txt:06:36:52: <shachaf> elliott: But have you ASCENDED NETHACK ATHEIST WISHLESS
11:40:41 <elliott> Deewiant: Do you know about VT100?
11:41:20 <elliott> Deewiant: The codes, and stuff.
11:41:28 <elliott> Deewiant: Like, you know how you can copy text from terminals?
11:41:35 <elliott> And it won't pad it out with a lot of spaces to fill the width?
11:41:41 <elliott> What's the difference between a cell with nothing in it and a cell with a space in it?
11:41:48 <elliott> Can I place a cell with nothing in it at a certain position? How?
11:42:15 <Deewiant> The difference is probably just that there's a line break in the middle of the line. :-P
11:43:03 <elliott> Deewiant: Ah, so you can put an '\n' in a cell?
11:43:17 <elliott> So could I fill the entire terminal with '\n's as a "clear" state?
11:43:23 <elliott> kmc: How does mosh handle this? I know it "synchronises" a terminal.
11:43:35 <elliott> So ostensibly it must be able to make a cell that has something in it not have something in it any more.
11:43:37 <Deewiant> I don't know if you can do that directly.
11:44:20 <Deewiant> If you want to clear the terminal, there's a CSI sequence for that.
11:45:41 <elliott> Deewiant: Mm, but that's inconvenient for my architecture.
11:46:00 <Deewiant> Perhaps your architecture needs tweaking.
11:46:12 <elliott> Basically I consider the terminal to be an 80x24 blob of cell values; I keep track of the "old" state, and updates get filtered into a separate update map, and then I update the terminal accordingly.
11:46:19 <elliott> Deewiant: That is what I am trying to achieve by asking these questions.
11:47:35 <elliott> Deewiant: Implementing my simultaneous-turn roguelike.
11:47:37 <elliott> I didn't want to use curses.
11:48:37 <Deewiant> So can't you set your internal blob to all-blank while issuing the "clear screen" sequence?
11:49:06 <fizzie> You should optimize your updates by using the region-scroll/copy/move stuffs. I remember reading websites with lynx on the VT510, and it was the funkiest, the way blocks of characters would just go all around the place when it decided to reuse some already-on-the-screen stuffs.
11:49:24 <elliott> Deewiant: Well, it's a fixed-size vector; there's not really a concept of "all-blank". More generally, the initial fill *does* have some relevant properties (for instance, black background); I would rather not special-case that kind of thing.
11:49:31 <elliott> Deewiant: Remember that when I overwrite text, it may be with a shorter string.
11:49:43 <elliott> So I'll need to replace cells with "emptiness" even if I special-case the initialt hing.
11:49:54 <elliott> fizzie: That... might actually be useful, since I have a scrolling viewport.
11:50:01 <elliott> fizzie: But it's too fiddly for me to consider.
11:50:20 <Deewiant> elliott: The concept of "all-blank" would be "spaces in every cell". If you need to keep track of the size, do that separately. Likewise for blank vs. space, if you need that differentiation.
11:50:46 <elliott> Deewiant: OK. So I fill the terminal with spaces. Now I want to display this text in the top-left corner:
11:50:59 <elliott> And when the user copies it, I want there to be no spaces after "world.".
11:52:04 <elliott> fizzie: (By the way, what happened to "optomize"?)
11:52:05 <Deewiant> Are you implementing a terminal or running in another one? If you're running in some existing terminal, I would imagine that after issuing the "clear screen" sequence that would work fine. I.e. only do the "all spaces" thing internally.
11:52:17 <elliott> Deewiant: Running in another one.
11:52:40 <Deewiant> Doing the "all spaces" thing externally is gross IMO.
11:52:42 <elliott> then it would result in no space being inserted after foo.
11:52:50 <elliott> The idea is to synchronise the internal state with the external state.
11:52:59 <Deewiant> Why would that result in no space?
11:52:59 <elliott> So since there's already a space between foo and bar, or so it thinks, it would simply skip that cell.
11:53:06 <elliott> 12:52 <Deewiant> Doing the "all spaces" thing externally is gross IMO.
11:53:12 <elliott> That's why I was asking what I should do that wasn't that.
11:53:15 <Deewiant> Okay, so you need to internally differentiate between "space" and "blank".
11:53:22 <Deewiant> Or have a dirty bit on each cell, or something.
11:53:31 <elliott> Deewiant: Remember the part where I have to turn some cells from non-blank into blank?
11:53:37 <elliott> When replacing a line with a shorter one.
11:53:53 <Deewiant> Right, what's the problem there?
11:54:03 <Deewiant> Externally: erase rest of line. Internally: assign blank to cells.
11:54:15 <elliott> So now I have to special-case lines too?
11:54:31 <elliott> The whole point of this is to insulate me from the terminal's vagaries and treat it as a simple block display :P
11:54:59 <Deewiant> Simplest way to do that is to clear the screen at every time. :-P
11:55:21 <Deewiant> I'd imagine that's why the corresponding CSI sequences exist.
11:55:35 <elliott> I could "special-case lines" by synchronising blank cells with clear line sequences, I suppose.
11:55:45 <elliott> But then I run into impossible states like a blank cell in the middle of a line.
11:56:07 <elliott> I know mosh treats the terminal as just a block display to be synchronised, so I'm hopeful it has some nice solution. (Thus the kmc ping.)
11:56:20 <elliott> (Or else I misunderstand mosh's architecture.)
11:56:34 <Deewiant> Maybe its solution is to use curses, which handles the vagaries internally. :-P
11:58:08 <elliott> Deewiant: I'm pretty sure software which deals with UTF-8 vt220 state machines and whatever "ISO 2022 locking escape sequences" are would not use curses.
11:58:25 <elliott> Especially given the whole "handles awkward Unicode edge-cases better than terminal software" thing.
11:58:44 <HackEgo> 49) <ehird> no Deewiant <Deewiant> No?! <Deewiant> I've been living a lie <ehird> yep. <Deewiant> Excuse me while I jump out of the window ->
12:02:21 <fizzie> elliott: Have you tested if it works right if you just make blanks by using the "erase character" ECH escape sequence? Though ECH is apparently not part of the plain VT100 set. ("Delete" is, but it moves stuff in from the right side.)
12:02:42 <elliott> And I haven't really written any code to output ANSI sequences at all yet, but this sounds promising.
12:03:30 <elliott> (I don't want to use anything that xterm/(u)rxvt/gnome-terminal/Konsole don't support, more or less.)
12:03:37 <fizzie> ECH is in at least the Linux console_codes, xterm's list of codes, the VT200 set, and ECMA-48, so it's not *terribly* rare.
12:03:52 <elliott> VT200 sounds good enough for me.
12:04:33 <elliott> fizzie: (What is the code?)
12:05:05 <elliott> Anyway, it's... slightly suboptimal, in that I'll output an awful lot of them at the end of a line.
12:05:22 <fizzie> VT200 as in "VT2xx". And it's \e[nX where n's the number if characters to erase.
12:05:23 <elliott> But I just realised now that I probably can't make much use of blanks at all.
12:05:55 <elliott> Depends on how I organise my layout.
12:05:59 <fizzie> Or <CSI>nX, I suppose, if one wants to be real fancy and 8-bit.
12:06:24 <elliott> (What happens if you have "a.b" and then erase the ".", I wonder...)
12:07:14 <fizzie> It will "cause the active presentation position and the n-1 following character positions in the presentation component to be put in the erased state", if you want the ECMA description of what happens.
12:07:49 <fizzie> VT220 manual says "Erasing removes characters from the screen without affecting other characters on the screen. Erased characters are lost. The cursor position does not change when erasing characters or lines."
12:08:23 <fizzie> It also puts erase-character in the same group as the usual erase-in-line "clear to the end of line/start of line/complete line" code, so it presumably should be somewhat similar.
12:08:37 <elliott> Well, VT220 doesn't really have a way to select text with the mouse.
12:08:41 <elliott> Which is the behaviour I'm interested in.
12:10:24 <elliott> fizzie: Does "a beside b" imply a is to the left of b? If not, is the a verb instead of "beside" that does?
12:10:31 <elliott> Like "a above b" implies a is to the... upwards of b.
12:11:04 <fizzie> "leftof" is so a verb.
12:11:23 <elliott> Er, "beside" isn't even a verb.
12:13:48 <fizzie> FWIW, echo 'foo ' in my terminal results in "foo" with three selectable spaces after, and echo -e 'foo \e[3D\e[3X' doesn't really help, while echo -e 'foo \e[3D\e[K' propely makes just a 'foo' with no selectable spaces after, so maybe you do have to clear to end of line to get short lines.
12:14:22 <elliott> Maybe I'll just use Qt or something and use a proper text field for my status line.
12:14:50 <fizzie> (And 'foobar\e[3D\e[3X
12:14:59 <fizzie> ' gives a 'foo ' too.)
12:15:05 <fizzie> (With the silly spaces.)
12:16:40 <elliott> fizzie: So, teach me about VT colours.
12:16:53 <elliott> You know how some terminals interpret blinking as blinking, and some interpret it as setting the background colour to high intensity?
12:17:15 <elliott> Can I get, e.g. a dark grey (i.e. high-intensity black) background in a "portable" way? (portable, n. works on xterm without configuration)
12:21:52 <fizzie> That's a funny definition of portable, having just one terminal emulator there. (Anyway, I think it's still possible to compile xterm without 16-colour support, in which case you can't get that at all.)
12:22:10 <elliott> fizzie: By "xterm", I mean "xterm and rxvt and so on".
12:22:26 <elliott> fizzie: The reason I say it that way is because you can set rxvt to treat it as high-intensity background etc. etc. but that doesn't count as "portable".
12:23:25 <elliott> Or, more generally: Is there any way to do it other than setting blink?
12:23:29 <elliott> (256colors need not apply.)
12:23:48 <fizzie> The fore/background "bright color" codes 90..107 should I think Just Work in the sense that they at least won't start blinking, presumably in xterm- and rxvt-derived stuffs. Not so sure about Linux console, though.
12:24:25 <fizzie> 90..97 are bright versions of 30..37 and 100..107 of 40..47 in the \e[...m construction.
12:24:27 <elliott> Is that in any standard? Will the foreground versions show as bold in a terminal emulator set to display bold text as thickened, or just as bright?
12:25:00 <fizzie> Those should be just bright colours, since they don't involve the bold attribute '1' there.
12:25:24 <elliott> Bit worried about the portability of that.
12:25:31 <elliott> (Wondering if it'll work in gnome-terminal, for instance.)
12:29:18 <elliott> fizzie: (So is it in any standard?)
12:30:15 <fizzie> According to http://bjh21.me.uk/all-escapes/all-escapes.txt not really. I'm not sure if there's anything more standard to get a bright background, though.
12:30:34 <fizzie> Even the "bold is bright" foreground thing isn't exactly global.
12:31:17 <elliott> So, theoretically, I could just use these universally and fully decouple bright/not-bright from bold, right?
12:31:31 <elliott> (Except that I couldn't have a non-bright bold cell, because it'd end up becoming bright.)
12:32:10 <fizzie> Yeah, if you toggle bold on, it'd become bold, bright, or bold and bright, depending.
12:33:54 <elliott> fizzie: Maybe I'll just not use colours at all.
12:34:36 <elliott> (Does anyone have a Linux console handy?)
12:35:57 <fizzie> ECMA-48 specifies a hilariously long list of attributes for SGR (i.e. \e[...m). You can have things blink slowly or rapidly, you can have characters concealed or crossed-out-but-still-legible, you can use first, second, ..., ninth alternative font, you can enable fraktur mode, you can have the stuff framed and/or encircled, whatever.
12:37:52 <fizzie> Sadly, it does nothing in my terminal.
12:40:01 <elliott> "hardly ever supported" -- Wikipedia (uncited)
12:40:38 <fizzie> For an old-fashioned "vgacon" Linux console, I doubt you can get a bright background no matter what you do, since I think it's -- unless you do tricks -- stuck in the default text mode, which has Blink Enable on, so there's just three bits of attributes for the background color physically.
12:41:10 <nortti> elliott: what do you need linux terminal for?
12:41:30 <elliott> fizzie: But framebuffer???
12:41:57 <fizzie> That's another thing, I wouldn't be surprised if fbcon didn't do blink at all.
12:42:10 <fizzie> Since it'd need to manually blink that stuff.
12:42:22 <fizzie> It sounds like the sort of thing they wouldn't have bothered to implement.
12:45:31 <fizzie> I don't have a framebuffer console on this thing, ISTR it didn't play nice with the nvidia driver. On vgacon, bold ('1') will make foreground bright, and blink ('5') will make things blink, but the bright-colour codes don't do anything at all.
12:48:28 <elliott> I'm tempted to just stick with sixteen backgrounds, sixteen foregrounds, and a "bold" attribute, with the understanding that it'll either make it bold or brighten the foreground or both.
12:48:36 <elliott> Also an underline attribute. Which will hopefully just... underline.
12:48:59 <elliott> fizzie: By the way, why is inverse a separate attribute?
12:49:03 <elliott> You could just swap the background and foreground instead.
12:49:12 <elliott> Or does lo-fi stuff support inverse but not background/foreground colours?
12:49:21 <fizzie> That's very common, yes.
12:50:43 <elliott> fizzie: You have a funny definition of "very". I like it.
12:51:05 <elliott> I bet NetHack supports things that only support inverse and not background/foreground colours.
12:51:13 <elliott> (And actually uses it, I mean.)
12:51:20 <fizzie> Well, I mean, if you have a non-color terminal, it'll still do inverse. My VT420 and VT510 were like that.
12:55:57 <nortti> do you meant that everyone has non-color terminals
12:56:27 <nortti> fizzie: you own physical terminals?
12:56:56 <fizzie> nortti: I used to, but I gave one of them away to a friend, and the smoke came out of the other one.
12:57:36 <fizzie> I used to have one under my desk for IRC purposes, I think.
12:57:48 <fizzie> If there were people visiting, for example.
12:58:12 <nortti> fizzie: did you ever attach one to serial port of linux machine and use it from there
12:58:18 <elliott> fizzie: Can you give me an algorithm that goes from a two-dimensional map of coordinates and replacement cells to put there to an ~optimal sequence of ANSI codes to perform those updates?
12:58:48 <fizzie> nortti: Yes, that's how I mostly used it.
12:59:18 <fizzie> The VT510 was very fancy. It did text modes up to something like 50 lines, and had a hardware status line, and a built-in calculator and whatever.
12:59:29 <fizzie> elliott: Nnno, I don't think I can.
12:59:39 <elliott> fizzie: Well, it doesn't have to be optimal optimal.
12:59:53 <elliott> Do clever things like optimise the order in which to move about so it can use shorter movement sequences.
12:59:56 <nortti> fizzie: did it have some kind of microprocessor in it?
13:01:08 <fizzie> nortti: Sure, I mean, it has to decode the codes, and present a setup menu and whatnot. If you pressed the right magic keys, it gave you a "graphical" (line-drawing characters) desk calculator thing. There was a key to paste the result in as if you had typed it.
13:02:00 <nortti> hmm. a real terminal would be nice to have
13:02:25 <fizzie> It also had a menu-driven configuration thing. I mean, look at this stuff: http://www.vt100.net/docs/vt510-rm/f2-21.png
13:02:33 <fizzie> There was also a clock.
13:03:00 <fizzie> Very configurable thing.
13:03:07 <elliott> That's too much configuration. :(
13:03:20 <fizzie> http://www.vt100.net/docs/vt510-rm/chapter2 lotsa menus.
13:03:53 <fizzie> Many character sets, too.
13:04:16 <elliott> IMO there should be at most 2.45 buttons on everything and one of them does nothing (it is there to reassure you).
13:04:29 <nortti> fizzie: that thing would pass for GUI I have designed if it didn't have that blocky text "Terminal Set-Up"
13:05:22 <fizzie> Oh, it has local copy-paste support too.
13:06:02 <fizzie> http://www.vt100.net/docs/vt510-rm/chapter3 <- there's a picture of the calculator.
13:07:14 <fizzie> And the hard status line was funky too, with screen.
13:07:33 <elliott> fizzie: Is the algorithm done yet?
13:10:43 <fizzie> elliott: Just scan it left-to-right, top-to-bottom, output when changed, track where you were and prepend a movement command when necessary. Sounds optimal enough: won't bounce around (vertically), and consecutive cells will be just output without intervening commands. Though it might be slightly tricky to update the bottom-right cell.
13:10:58 <elliott> fizzie: Yes, but e.g. imagine this update
13:11:15 <elliott> It might be better to go down after b and then up-right after b.
13:11:21 <elliott> Rather than doing a full-coordinate-in-decimal reposition thing.
13:12:34 <fizzie> "abc", move to d, "d" sounds still shorter; I mean, outputting character moves you automatically one step right, and all the movement characters are like three commands long.
13:12:50 <fizzie> Movement commands, three characters.
13:12:53 <elliott> Moving to d involves a global reposition thing.
13:13:02 <elliott> And what if you're at 1000000,1000000?
13:13:13 <fizzie> At 1000000000,1000000000 in your 80x24 screen?
13:13:23 <elliott> Or do you mean use cursor-style movement exclusively?
13:13:35 <elliott> In which case, that'll be bad when you have something changed at the top and bottom, say.
13:13:56 <elliott> (Hmm, is line-wrapping behaviour guaranteed?)
13:14:08 <elliott> (So you can skip a reposition to the start of the next line in... very pathological cases.)
13:15:08 <elliott> fizzie: So, just to clarify:
13:15:19 <elliott> abc<absolute reposition to one line down and column 0>def
13:15:30 <elliott> That still seems possibly suboptimal to me. But okay. :p
13:18:51 <fizzie> Well, you did say "not optimal optimal", and it's simple to do. Anyway, when you see the cursor isn't where you want it to be, that's a place where you can conveniently decide whether to use something else than an absolute movement command if it seems shorter. (E.g. check if it's same line/column -- the former more often, presumably, if you scan in the reading order -- and use the ...
13:18:57 <fizzie> ... up/down/left/right movements, or the "absolute column on current row" one.)
13:19:24 <elliott> Right. But the idea behind a super-almost-optimal one would be to rearrange all the updates to get the most favourable sequence of movements :P
13:19:28 <elliott> Anyway, I'll just do the obvious thing.
13:20:48 <fizzie> You can also omit the r and/or c in \e[r;cH when the row or column is 1. (It's 1-based.)
13:21:02 <elliott> Hmm, this means I want to nest my updates map (y,x).
13:21:06 <elliott> (It's an IntMap (IntMap Cell).)
13:21:11 <elliott> That will be very confusing. :(
13:22:17 <fizzie> (And same for column c in \e[cG, and I guess also for the relative movements when moving by one notch.)
13:22:45 <elliott> I wonder what curses does? Oh, curses just relies on context given at the time of mutation. (Ew.)
13:25:39 <fizzie> I've often wondered what piece of code (curses, screen, lynx itself) was responsible for the plainly visible update-optimization when using the physical terminal. I mean, it was clever enough to scroll large blocks both horizontally and vertically to position them right, instead of redrawing.)
13:29:03 <elliott> fizzie: I really want to use that. :(
13:29:12 <elliott> Because, I mean, have you ever played Dungeon Crawl?
13:30:38 <nortti> Indiana has law saying that Pi=3
13:31:05 <elliott> nortti: And did you know that the word "gullible" isn't in the dictionary?!?!??!?!?!?!??!?!?!
13:32:55 <nortti> elliott: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiana_Pi_Bill
13:33:18 <elliott> nortti: Did you notice the word coming after "The bill never became"?
13:33:25 <elliott> It's in the second paragraph, so you might have missed it...
13:33:39 <elliott> cf. also http://www.snopes.com/religion/pi.asp
13:44:09 <elliott> fizzie: data Thing = Jump Point | Skip Int | Write Cell
13:44:12 <elliott> What should I call this, man???
13:51:46 <elliott> Deewiant: That could work, thanks
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14:01:38 <elliott> fizzie: Oh, I just realised that my thing has somewhat suboptimal behaviour for "foo bar" when there was previously spaces.
14:01:47 <elliott> It should just overwrite the space, but instead it'll use CSI C
14:02:30 <elliott> Perhaps I'll special-case a difference of less than three characters.
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14:29:47 <coppro> elliott: what is crawl's 5? Wait a turn?
14:30:30 <elliott> coppro: no, wait 100 turns or until something happens; "something" includes "a monster comes into view", "MP restored", and "HP restored"
14:30:42 <elliott> in NetHack I just have to spam 50., which (a) is tedious and slow and (b) wastes turns after full HP restore
14:31:00 <elliott> in Crawl you can go from nearly dead to full HP in about 3 seconds with judicious application of 5
14:31:09 <elliott> probably more like 1.5 seconds
14:31:23 <elliott> oh, it also searches too, which is nice
14:33:51 <elliott> fizzie: What are the arguments to the select graphic rendition stuff
14:34:00 <elliott> "CSI n [;k] m" but I see no indication of when you'd use a k.
14:34:05 <elliott> And apparently there can be more than one.
14:35:10 <coppro> elliott: that would be nice
14:35:31 <elliott> coppro: it would also be nice to have an actual hp bar on the bottom row... but it's pretty cramped already
14:35:38 <coppro> elliott: nh4 has an hp bar
14:35:49 <elliott> did it have one the last time I played?
14:35:55 <Deewiant> elliott: k is used when setting colours
14:35:56 <elliott> I don't remember it being the kind of bar I'd want anyway
14:36:06 <elliott> Deewiant: Oh, just 256-colour stuff?
14:36:35 <elliott> coppro: Crawl has the luxury of not being able to even try fitting a map onto one screen so it can stuff a lot of stuff on the screen instead
14:37:05 <coppro> elliott: nh4 just takes more screen real estate
14:37:27 <elliott> coppro: You're not telling me you use hugeterm, are you?
14:37:50 <elliott> I'm not talking to you any more.
14:38:05 <elliott> nortti: any terminal larger than 80x24
14:38:10 <elliott> terminals smaller than 80x24 are acceptable
14:39:42 <nortti> shit. I can't really resize my 160x64 terminal
14:42:02 <elliott> It's OK to use bigger ones for a console.
14:42:06 <elliott> It's not OK to play games with them.
14:42:14 <elliott> (Or, more generally, broadcast them.)
15:10:40 <coppro> elliott: nitro and hence nh4 doesn't require termcasting
15:10:51 <coppro> still a few mechanics need sorting out there
15:10:57 <elliott> coppro: It doesn't matter.
15:11:05 <elliott> That is, playing a game locally in hugeterm is a sin, too.
15:12:38 <elliott> (Further guidance would be above my pay grade; consult High Priest monqy.)
15:20:48 <nooga> why does 'else' in scheme does not evaluate to #t ?
15:21:41 <itidus20> i apologize for the rudeness of this but its more of an experiment
15:21:46 <itidus20> @google why does 'else' in scheme does not evaluate to #t ?
15:21:48 <lambdabot> ftp://ftp.cs.cmu.edu/usr/ai/html/r4rs/r4rs_6.html
15:23:32 <nooga> it does not explain why
15:24:01 <nooga> it'd be rude if you've used lmgtfy
15:24:50 <elliott> nooga: Because it's usually used in a context where evaluating it as a value would not make sense
15:25:25 <elliott> (else 'consonant)) ===> consonant
15:25:27 <elliott> library syntax: (and <test1> ...)
15:26:01 <elliott> It's supported in COND also for consistency. It could be a value defined as #t, but since it's special in some control structures, why not just use it as a keyword in them and treat it in a uniform manner?
15:27:33 <nooga> right, i forgot about case & stuff
15:27:44 <elliott> Hey, my memory isn't that good either.
15:27:50 <elliott> I pulled up R5RS to check my hunch.
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15:28:12 <itidus20> it may surprise some of you, especially, hmm.. especially fungot, but under the right conditions i do know how it's supposed to feel to learn things ^_^
15:28:27 <itidus20> a chat i had before reminded me of it
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15:29:19 <Ngevd> irssi won't let me talk...
15:29:28 <itidus20> maybe it's not supposed to feel like anything as an adult
15:29:48 <itidus20> maybe learn is learn, with no manipulative pleasure
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15:31:09 <Ngevd> elliott, Ngevd is XChat, Taneb is irssi
15:31:42 <itidus20> i thought logo was rubbish when i saw it though..
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15:35:50 <itidus20> maybe i'm missing something, part of the fun of thinking, by always being concerned with the applied, practical, concrete side of things
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15:36:54 <HackEgo> Taneb: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
15:36:58 <HackEgo> NGEVD: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.)
15:37:47 <Ngevd> Well, I've worked it out
15:37:55 <Ngevd> It helps if you are in the channel pane
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15:38:38 <Taneb> I was in the status bit
15:38:42 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: whois: not found
15:39:34 <Taneb> `echo Taneb is Ngevd
15:44:09 <Taneb> I'm leaving for various reasons
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16:11:48 <elliott> [exists v. (Eq v) => (v -> String, Attrs -> v)]
16:12:03 <elliott> obvious preapplication Attrs -> String
16:12:07 <elliott> but also Attrs -> Attrs -> Bool
16:37:29 <elliott> @hoogle (Monoid a) => Bool -> a -> a
16:37:30 <lambdabot> Control.Exception.Base assert :: Bool -> a -> a
16:37:30 <lambdabot> Control.Exception assert :: Bool -> a -> a
16:37:30 <lambdabot> Control.OldException assert :: Bool -> a -> a
16:53:39 <elliott> fizzie: So, the reset/normal SGR thing.
16:53:43 <elliott> Does that reset the foreground/background too?
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17:01:02 <fizzie> To the "default". It might not be exactly any of the other colours.
17:04:15 <elliott> fizzie: Oh, hey, you can just do \ESC[a;b;c;dm for \ESC[am\ESC[bm\ESC[cm\ESC[dm.
17:05:03 <fizzie> It says that in places.
17:05:25 <elliott> Except for the WP articles.
17:05:48 <fizzie> "After CSI can be zero or more parameters separated with ;." (The WP article.)
17:06:11 <fizzie> Deewiant: What, you haven't ever set bright red with \e[31;1m?
17:06:57 <Deewiant> Oh, it's not the convenient thing I thought it was.
17:07:00 <elliott> fizzie: Yes, but "parameters" is ambiguous.
17:07:09 <Deewiant> But then elliott confused me by asking about 256-colour.
17:07:11 <elliott> For instance, see that xterm-256 takes a colour parameter after it.
17:07:16 <elliott> Deewiant: Because that's all that was mentioned as using it!
17:07:21 <elliott> @hoogle (a -> Maybe b) -> [a] -> [b]
17:07:22 <lambdabot> Data.Maybe mapMaybe :: (a -> Maybe b) -> [a] -> [b]
17:07:22 <lambdabot> Prelude mapM :: Monad m => (a -> m b) -> [a] -> m [b]
17:07:22 <lambdabot> Control.Monad mapM :: Monad m => (a -> m b) -> [a] -> m [b]
17:09:04 <elliott> Behold the horror: http://sprunge.us/jOLb
17:09:06 <fizzie> Well, the 88/256-colour things are sorta silly, the way they change what the following parameters mean.
17:10:07 <elliott> Now I should probably just get rid of the Action type by applying the trusty old single-use-data -> code transformation.
17:10:31 <elliott> And after I've done all this, all I'll have to solve is input. Still better than using curses.
17:14:16 <fizzie> Have you solved the matter of the screen scrolling if you output a character to the bottom-right cell? I think that sometimes happens.
17:15:14 <elliott> fizzie: Seems to work fine here.
17:15:40 <elliott> Admittedly this is in Terminal.app, voted "not the best" terminal emulator in a nationwide poll.
17:16:32 <elliott> fizzie: Do you have `'nation-wide" polls in Finland?
17:16:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Tell fizzie about nation-wide polls.
17:20:13 <fizzie> Not that I know of, any sort of official things, I don't think.
17:22:49 <fizzie> As for the terminal thing, it does not seem to scroll in urxvt either, but I think it is a possible mode of operation, that the automatic-margin linewrap ends up causing a scroll. (It does seem to scroll the terminal if I move to the bottom-right corner and output two characters.)
17:26:41 <fizzie> (There's a terminfo boolean property "semi_auto_right_margin", with the description "printing in last column causes cr", it might be that sort of a thing.)
17:27:20 <elliott> fizzie: Here's a TEST PROGRAM:
17:29:36 <fizzie> Well, it puts an ugly @ at the corner there.
17:29:52 <elliott> (Append ; sleep 3 for scrolltesting, of course.)
17:31:02 <fizzie> Well, no, not in my terminal. But I think it's only sucky terminals that would, anyway.
17:31:12 <elliott> (That @ is a fleeing Terence standing on top of items, if we take monqy's Crawl's rc as a guide.)
17:32:51 <shachaf> elliott: Did you know I ascended NetHack atheist wishless?
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17:33:09 <elliott> I never heard that before.
17:33:11 <shachaf> elliott: SO the logs inform me!
17:33:28 <elliott> shachaf: Ah, you're one of those "log" "readers".
17:33:30 <fizzie> Text mode trivia of the day: VGA text mode has a hardware "underline" feature, but it's usually disabled in color text modes, because it's enabled by a particular background/foreground combination, and that's a bit silly.
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17:33:51 <elliott> fizzie: That's a good point. What does that program do on your nearest Linux console?
17:33:55 <shachaf> elliott: More like one of those "scrollback" "backlog" "scrollbacklog" readers.
17:34:14 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean caffeine is all well and good, but when it moves on to opium and VX I get the sense that someone will glance at it and I'll end up in Guantanamo Bay.
17:34:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: How many people do you know that know the molecular structure of opium?
17:35:08 <elliott> Even *I* don't know that. Maybe I should learn it.
17:35:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Just paste a sticky note underneath where it displays it saying "IS BAD FOR YOU".
17:36:23 <fizzie> elliott: It does not do anything terribly interesting in my VGA console, though nothing is underlined. (The Linux console doesn't do underlining anyway; you can specify a particular colour that will be used for underlined text, but I think that's ignored if you actually set a colour.)
17:36:55 <elliott> fizzie: But I want underlining, though. :(
17:37:15 <fizzie> Well, you can't have it in a Linux console, it just doesn't do it.
17:38:20 <fizzie> It's nontrivial to do for vgacon, because the hardware is not so capable of it.
17:38:51 <elliott> fizzie: I bet Abrash could do it.
17:41:15 <fizzie> The only coloured text you can underline is I think (dark or bright) red on black, because that's the setting of the attribute bits that enables underline generation.
17:42:49 <nortti> in fbcon \e[4m turns text odd colored
17:43:27 <fizzie> nortti: But I think it doesn't if you set a color manually.
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17:44:13 <fizzie> nortti: You can use \e[1;n] to make 'n' the colour (0..7) that's used to simulate the underlining.
17:44:13 <nortti> it doesn't underline it, it just changes color
17:45:11 <fizzie> Well, fancy that, it does in fact override a set colour too.
17:46:32 <elliott> @ask monqy you forgot @messages?
17:46:33 <fizzie> nortti: I didn't notice the colour-change because it was the same colour that the text was already supposed to be.
17:46:40 <lambdabot> elliott asked 8s ago: you forgot @messages?
17:46:45 <elliott> @ask monqy you forgot @messages? again
17:47:56 <shachaf> elliott: Did you ascend yet?
17:48:36 <shachaf> fizzie: Did you play Psychonauts yet?
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17:51:35 <shachaf> monqy: Phoover is gone, so you'll have to play Psychonauts instead.
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17:52:06 <elliott> One application of the motion to suspend the rules is called the "Gordian knot" motion.[9] If confusion has caused the assembly to get so tangled up in a parliamentary snarl that neither the chairman nor the members can unravel it, a member can move to suspend the rules to start fresh. The use of the "Gordian Knot" motion is illustrated in The Standard Code with this example: "Madam President, in view of the confusion about the parlia
17:52:07 <elliott> mentary situation, I believe it would be best if we were to cancel out everything that has been done on this motion and start over from the beginning, permitting the motion to be resubmitted in whatever form the maker wishes. I move that the rules be suspended to permit this."[9]. The "Gordian Knot" version of suspend the rules was introduced by Floyd Riddick, Parliamentarian Emeritus of the United States Senate, at a meeting of the B
17:52:07 <elliott> oard of Directors of the American Institute of Parliamentarians.[10] RONR does not make reference to the "Gordian Knot".
17:52:35 <fizzie> shachaf: No, I've been sick. Also I played a bit of LIMBO and Bastion.
17:53:10 <shachaf> fizzie: Psychonauts is probably better!
17:53:13 <elliott> fizzie: Get well soon! Or die.
17:53:17 <elliott> Those are probably the only two options.
17:53:33 <shachaf> If so, play Psychonauts; it'll have childhood nostalgia on its side.
17:54:52 <elliott> fizzie: I don't suppose the console supports 256colours. :p
17:55:19 <fizzie> elliott: No, though fbcon technically could. (As far as I know, it doesn't.)
17:55:42 <elliott> Maybe I should just go "completely brogue".
17:56:44 <elliott> (This involves Actual Windowing and so many colours.)
17:56:48 <elliott> fizzie: Have you played brogue?
17:57:11 <fizzie> Not long ago rxvt-unicode didn't support 256 colours either; it's "traditionally" done the 88-colour thing. (Nowadays it does the 256 too.)
17:57:27 <elliott> Yes, and all the telnet server things disconnect clients with the 256 colours rxvt-unicode $TERM.
17:57:33 <elliott> So you have to set it to rxvt-unicode. :(
17:57:47 <elliott> Well, not "simple" in the bad sense.
17:57:52 <elliott> But it's not fiddly to play.
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17:58:17 <fizzie> It doesn't seem to be even Wikipedia-notable!
17:58:24 <elliott> http://sites.google.com/site/broguegame/
17:58:32 <shachaf> What happened to 4 billion colours?
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17:58:36 <fizzie> Yes, it does seem to be Google-notable.
17:58:40 <elliott> It's popular "in the community", as they say.
17:59:53 <elliott> fizzie: It's basically like rogue, were rogue a lot less simplistic and fleshed out and developed in 2012 and really ridiculously pretty.
18:00:11 <elliott> (cf. http://308192c9-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/broguegame/home/screenshots/DarBattlemage.png?attachauth=ANoY7coM1tv9xZVXhGG5TH-dIf9KXWO7LgbsbsP-kCl8yGK0RvdI5rsCDwwz1f9rKRHgveM8eUkdxjEoF5-zeIBswnGMRDJa80aLD9nfdKQjxZYG2JYgaLH-G5A0OQu8hTjAP91omhpxXxU_v8Ve7h-lC6qT9jiGMPUtFmcY-Fvic3pGifXjq4eubAjy2vnEfn09nkS4TosoK9KAU9z_QaT6dJGs1UktL_erux-isDM7_fiRYfz3UBw%3D&attredirects=0)
18:00:24 <fizzie> I don't think I've ever really had 4 billion colours anywhere. It's a weird amount to have, not being 2^n where n%3 == 0.
18:00:40 <elliott> "The dar blademaster is standing, burning, in a pool of blood." -- yes, me too.
18:00:41 <fizzie> Well, that's certainly pretty.
18:01:07 <elliott> fizzie: The water is even prettier. Actually every part of the game is prettier than every other part of it.
18:01:17 <elliott> It has a whole light-illumination thing on every tile and all.
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18:02:19 <fizzie> "You typically hit for 10860% of the goblin conjurer's maximum HP, and at best could defeat it in 1 hit."
18:02:36 <elliott> fizzie: What... did you do.
18:02:44 <fizzie> I looked at a screenshot.
18:02:48 <elliott> monqy: You should endorse brogue! It says in my contract I get a bonus if I get you to endorse it too.
18:02:53 <fizzie> The one called Conjurer-on-bridge.png.
18:03:08 <elliott> fizzie: I dunno, sounds like a risky battle to me.
18:03:12 <monqy> , as far as roguelikes go
18:03:13 <elliott> What about the worst-case????
18:03:20 <fizzie> You also have a 100% chance to hit.
18:03:37 <elliott> Yes, but what if you hit for, e.g. only 900% of the goblin conjurer's maximum HP?
18:04:16 <monqy> brogue has problems but it's a pretty good game
18:04:17 <elliott> (Brogue Tips: You can technically examine things and travel to places using the keyboard, but once you get used to it hover-to-examine and click-to-travel are really convenient. Also + increases the font size.)
18:04:22 <monqy> i should get back into brogue
18:04:25 <elliott> (I think that's all the brogue tips I have.)
18:04:28 <monqy> brogue problems #1:
18:04:36 <elliott> (Oh! There's another one: ? is a handy one-page reference to all the keys you need.)
18:05:09 <monqy> I hear brogue early game is better in more recent versions so that complaint's "out the window", as they say
18:05:14 <monqy> at least until I try brogue again
18:05:32 <elliott> monqy: My early game deaths (all of them) haven't been to traps, at least.
18:05:42 <monqy> elliott: traps are only a problem late game
18:05:46 <elliott> monqy: They're mostly when you run into a goblin conjurer pack and get swamped by spectral blades and so on.
18:05:50 <monqy> have you gotten to brogue lategame?
18:05:51 <elliott> I thought you meant that was the early game complaint.
18:05:58 <monqy> you'll see what i mean
18:05:59 <elliott> I am not very good at roguelikes.
18:06:01 <monqy> assuming you get there
18:06:15 <elliott> Brogue is probably tougher for me than most other roguelikes because of the less... character-building-based focus.
18:06:28 <monqy> brogue has plenty of character building
18:06:36 <monqy> your character is your equipment
18:06:44 <elliott> What I meant was that you don't really have much of a fallback beyond your wits and what you've picked up.
18:06:55 <monqy> what more do you need
18:06:56 <elliott> At least, there seems to be less of an accrual of general power over time like you have in Crawl and so on.
18:07:02 <elliott> monqy: Well, I don't have wits, and the RNG hates me.
18:07:05 <monqy> you get plenty of power
18:07:12 <monqy> your power is what you picked up and enchanted etc
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18:16:53 <nooga> brogue is quite amusing
18:17:06 <nooga> that whole thing with build
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18:18:07 <nooga> but i don't usually go deeper than the dlevel 10 in the latest version
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19:08:38 <Taneb> @tell zzo38 I think ($) associates the wrong way in Prelude.Generalize
19:09:06 <Taneb> @tell zzo38 foo $ bar $ baz 10 doesn't work as it does with Prelude
19:09:48 <shachaf> kmc: Did you hear about the other edge cases involved with temporarily overwriting a page with a syscall instruction?
19:10:07 <shachaf> If the page is memory-mapped from a file, modifying it will turn it into a private mapping.
19:10:13 <shachaf> Which it'll stay even if you turn it back.
19:18:37 <shachaf> By "turn it back" I mean writing the old value back to the page, not unmapping and remapping, of course.
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19:32:12 <shachaf> kmc: So when are you moving here?
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20:06:42 <lambdabot> elliott said 12h 56m 31s ago: I like that "bug fix" in the modified C Deadfish interpreter.
20:08:25 <oerjan> @tell elliott Wait, my bug fix or the anonymous ip one?
20:10:47 <Taneb> @tell zzo38 Also, (!!) seems broken
20:13:02 <Taneb> @tell zzo38 Neither (!!) nor (!!!) work for infinite lists
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20:52:34 <zzo38> Is there such things in mathematics as the "algebraic infinity" where it is treated like an algebraic variable representing a nonzero real number, and then is considered greater than all real numbers in a comparison?
20:52:34 <lambdabot> zzo38: You have 4 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
20:52:46 <lambdabot> Taneb said 1h 44m 6s ago: I think ($) associates the wrong way in Prelude.Generalize
20:52:46 <lambdabot> Taneb said 1h 43m 39s ago: foo $ bar $ baz 10 doesn't work as it does with Prelude
20:52:46 <lambdabot> Taneb said 41m 58s ago: Also, (!!) seems broken
20:52:46 <lambdabot> Taneb said 39m 43s ago: Neither (!!) nor (!!!) work for infinite lists
20:53:18 <zzo38> Taneb: I know it associates the other way; this is on purpose. If (!!) is broken then thanks I will attempt to fix it
20:53:44 <Taneb> zzo38, can I ask why you want it to associate the other way?
20:54:28 <zzo38> If you want foo(bar(baz 10)) then write foo . bar $ baz 10 instead.
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20:55:26 <Taneb> That doesn't halt with Prelude.Generalize
20:55:36 <zzo38> Probably for !! it should be foldlM
20:55:51 <Taneb> I think you use foldl
20:55:55 <zzo38> Do you think that would fix it? At the time I wrote that I didn't know foldlM
20:56:33 <Taneb> It'd need to be able to short-ciruit
20:56:42 <Taneb> I'm afraid I don't know foldlM
20:57:03 <zzo38> foldlM :: (Foldable t, Monad m) => (a -> b -> m a) -> a -> t b -> m a -- Defined in Data.Foldable
21:01:24 <zzo38> Yes, using foldlM fixed it.
21:02:28 <zzo38> When I upload the next version, that, as well as other things, are fixed.
21:02:28 <Taneb> As you can tell, I'm actually using Prelude.Generalize
21:02:51 <zzo38> That is good because the more is use, the more things mistakes can be found and improvement suggested.
21:05:08 <zzo38> Notice also that lists are Copeanoid which allows many kind of codes to be shortened
21:09:40 <oerjan> <Taneb> zzo38, can I ask why you want it to associate the other way? <-- i recall Cale thinks it is more useful that way
21:11:36 <Sgeo> Is there a way to URL escape unicode codepoints?
21:13:06 <pikhq_> The accepted convention is to URL escape UTF-8 bytes.
21:13:22 <Sgeo> My attempt didn't work on this thing anyway
21:13:33 <Sgeo> Trying to mess with http://gryphonllc.com/irc/hulk.php?smash=a
21:14:24 <pikhq_> Correction, that's the defined behavior per RFC 3986.
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21:26:49 <oerjan> now capable of being awake and asleep at the same time!
21:27:10 <oerjan> conclusion: MDude is a dolphin.
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21:45:42 <MDude> click-click-wistle
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22:39:29 <oerjan> yay http://sdo.gsfc.nasa.gov/assets/mov/depot/APOD/latest_APOD_HMIC_FR.jpg
22:47:28 <calamari> that link didn't work, but see here http://sunearthday.nasa.gov/webcasts/nasaedge/
22:47:48 <oerjan> it worked a moment ago
22:48:40 <calamari> I'm assuming it was a venus transit image?
22:49:26 <oerjan> yes, it's supposedly updated every 15 mins
22:54:15 <calamari> my link is a live stream, it's good
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23:16:40 <Gregor> All the reviews for this hotel said the breakfast was bad.
23:16:46 <Gregor> Well, the reviews in English, anyway.
23:16:51 <Gregor> What the hell were they smoking?
23:17:11 <Gregor> Steamed buns, fried noodles, fresh steamed cabbage, various pickled vegetables.
23:17:16 <Gregor> The breakfast here is friggin' awesome.
23:17:36 <oerjan> the reviews did say _why_ it was bad, i hope?
23:17:36 <Gregor> I blame: White people.
23:17:43 <Gregor> No, just that they didn't like it.
23:18:21 <oerjan> assume it smells horrible, then.
23:19:22 * oerjan gets an inkling Gregor is slightly tired of these jokes
23:20:36 <Gregor> It's the painful truth to them that really hurts me ;)
23:22:54 * oerjan imagines it now: "Cursed by a rare condition, his dream of becoming a famous restaurant critic seemed beyond reach."
23:23:33 <calamari> ah you're the same time as perth, australia
23:23:58 <lambdabot> Local time for Gregor is Tue Jun 5 19:23:54
23:24:13 <calamari> for me, I add 3 hours and swap am/pm
23:24:26 <Gregor> I am in the exact opposite timezone of the one indicated there.
23:24:47 <oerjan> Gregor: so jetlag from hell?
23:25:00 <Gregor> Basically as bad as jetlag could conceivably be, yes.
23:25:07 <Gregor> But I ate breakfast for breakfast, so that's a good start.
23:25:15 <Gregor> Of course, I ate breakfast because I forgot to eat dinner last night ...
23:26:06 * oerjan currently is eating breakfast for dinner at 1:25 AM
23:26:56 <pikhq_> Gregor: It's pretty likely that those reviewers just weren't well-accustomed to non-Americanised Chinese food.
23:27:09 <oerjan> it's breakfast according to what i'm eating, but dinner according to how long since i slept
23:27:22 <Gregor> pikhq_: /Maybe/, but like, steamed buns? How can ANYONE not like good steamed buns. It's loony.
23:27:51 <ais523> oerjan: I actually have a name for the meal you eat between about 1 and 5 am, it's "antilunch"
23:27:51 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
23:27:54 <lambdabot> quintopia asked 23h 14m 27s ago: has anyone before written a program that uses larger offsets on longer tapes?
23:27:54 <lambdabot> shachaf said 23h 13m 1s ago: has anyone before quintopia written a program that uses larger offsets on longer tapes?
23:28:01 <pikhq_> Gregor: There are people in the US today that still think a Chinese buffet is "exotic".
23:28:08 <pikhq_> You may now be depressed.
23:28:12 <ais523> quintopia: I don't think so, but I don't see how it would help
23:28:18 <ais523> oerjan: this is not yet a standard English word, but I want to make one
23:28:30 <shachaf> ais523: Did my context help?
23:28:35 <Gregor> pikhq_: But those are not the people who travel to Beijing.
23:28:49 <ais523> shachaf: not really I was pretty amused at seeing the same question twice
23:28:59 <oerjan> so what is more appropriate for antilunch, pasta or antipasta?
23:29:07 <shachaf> ais523: Well, quintopia asked a question and someone mentioned there wasn't enough context.
23:29:31 <ais523> oerjan: the shops aren't open at antilunchtime, so you eat whatever you can actually prepare as a meal
23:29:35 <pikhq_> At least, not travel to Beijing and survive to their first meal. I'd imagine being extremely racist to the natives doesn't give you a long life expectancy. :P
23:29:53 <Gregor> pikhq_: It's hard to be racist to them when they don't understand a word you say.
23:30:09 <pikhq_> Gregor: I suspect they can infer what "CHING CHONG DING DONG" means.
23:30:48 <Gregor> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zulEMWj3sVA (In case you don't know what I'm referring to)
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23:36:25 <quintopia> ais523: more specifically, you expect to encounter smaller decoys first and bigger ones later, so it may be favorable to increase offset size with each decoy encountered
23:36:40 <quintopia> (for as long as that fact is true)
23:36:58 <ais523> I'm not sure that's the case (and I also think the way juggernought sets decoys is stupid)
23:38:01 <quintopia> well ffspg goes back and increase sizes of decoys, yes? so you'd see the small ones first and then the big oens
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23:38:36 <quintopia> i'd expect raising the offset size after, say, 2 decoys, could save you time on those two