< 1339113953 421100 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :How to calculate the Venus transit? < 1339114031 830086 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a simple way using the data from Astrolog? (Astrolog will display distances too, as well as azimuth/altitude, ecliptic longitude/ecliptic latitude, and right ascension/declination) < 1339114223 760143 :Phantom__Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1339114483 218015 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :you calculate the time when earth and venus are the same angle around the sun (this is a periodic function) < 1339114516 375687 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :and calculate when they are same distance from the ecliptic (a strange function ew) < 1339114530 516694 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :and see when they coincide to within some small tolerance < 1339114544 978518 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you need the apparent diameter? < 1339114780 235490 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :to calculate the tolerance < 1339114792 17895 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Astrolog will display the ecliptic coordinates of Sun and Venus < 1339114913 877461 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :As well as the distance < 1339115000 606671 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :um a transit would be when venus is _on_ the ecliptic, no? < 1339115020 334698 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also in the same place as the sun < 1339115031 641828 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yes; but some tolerance is allowed due to apparent diameter < 1339115056 647058 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't this basically the same as for eclipses, just with venus and sun instead of moon and sun? < 1339115080 699990 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes it is the same kind of thing as with a solar eclipse < 1339115096 456619 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you already told iirc that you had found out how to find eclipses < 1339115108 635828 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: not necessarily on the ecliptic no. i don't think. < 1339115127 734933 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: well very close. the _sun_ is always there, after all. < 1339115152 596076 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes I have, but even with eclipses I do not know how to calculate where it will be visible and what the tolerance will be, and whether it is total or partial < 1339115172 514710 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well venus transits are never total < 1339115187 648140 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or well < 1339115190 300987 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: the ecliptic is the plane in which earth orbits? then yes it will be very close < 1339115209 106746 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: Yes < 1339115268 839242 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: anyway, ecliptic latitude ~ 0 and conjunction with sun, i should imagine < 1339115291 178253 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I know that much! < 1339115365 616458 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I don't know is such things as the tolerance and visibility conditions < 1339115383 14015 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i recall from wikipedia there's an approximate period of 243 years < 1339115484 858966 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: well if you have difference in latitude and in longitude between venus and sun, then pythagoras theorem should give a close approximation to the distance between the centers, i think < 1339115490 254962 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*+' < 1339115510 476364 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But these are spherical coordinates < 1339115573 241509 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, thus only an approximation < 1339115585 541756 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1339115641 927724 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and only good when they are actually close < 1339115772 142834 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, why are solar eclipses visible at different place on the Earth? I see maps of solar eclipse where they are visible < 1339115798 426605 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do know the Moon moves much faster than Venus < 1339115804 526538 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the moon is much smaller than the sun, so its shadow can never cover all of earth < 1339115827 403370 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you calculate where it is visible? < 1339115830 692442 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or well hm < 1339115835 19777 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :same way as venus < 1339115871 103253 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need to use the rotation of the earth, and the location of moon wrt ecliptic when it is in "full" position < 1339115873 880112 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually i guess it has more to do with distance < 1339115883 326573 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Doesn't it depend on apparent diameter, not true diameter? < 1339115890 708325 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1339115891 185717 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly < 1339115947 83930 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i expect the locus of points where solar eclipse reaches totality to look about like a sine curve < 1339115956 893823 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the apparent diameters were always equal, then the eclipse would always be total at exactly one spot, i think < 1339115964 986515 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :since the axis of earth is tilted wrt eclipctic < 1339115981 915602 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Astrolog does include the true diameters (given in units where 1 = diameter of Earth), but no apparent diameters < 1339115989 957490 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well unless it misses earth entirely < 1339116004 856278 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I can confirm that I have no clue what kuskelar the clatsop man is doing < 1339116013 793447 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell ais523 elliott: I can confirm that I have no clue what kuskelar the clatsop man is doing < 1339116014 457202 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1339116016 117926 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: just divide by distance < 1339116021 462261 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: Yes; the Tropic of Cancer and Tropic of Capricorn give the amount of the tilt (named because those are the ecliptic longitude of the Sun if the declination is at those tropics) < 1339116038 165748 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :And they do sometimes move slightly < 1339116039 220886 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: no, it would not always be a point, since the apparent diameter is also a function of location from which you are viewing < 1339116086 911892 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: So, you would move the center of measurement? < 1339116110 594750 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: no, oerjan is right you just divide by distance to get apparent diameter < 1339116120 974885 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that distance is a distance to a particular point on the earth < 1339116136 314212 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that distance is changing < 1339116150 967160 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :astronomical calculations are reliable and predictable < 1339116154 649493 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they aren't convenient < 1339116206 297738 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually dividing by distance is not totally accurate, i think, since they are spheres not circles < 1339116225 370052 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1339116229 113975 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so which circle on the surface forms the visible edge depends on distance < 1339116255 884939 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1339116261 235481 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not a problem for the sub < 1339116262 828746 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :sun < 1339116269 565465 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is as close to perfect as you can get < 1339116300 146775 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think that is quite true < 1339116331 840873 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :no? i guess black holes are more spherical...but the sun is p damn close < 1339116346 458219 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :um it's a problem _for_ spheres < 1339116354 68430 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :even perfect ones < 1339116356 333820 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1339116376 107574 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :a sphere looks like the same circle from all angles at a particular distance < 1339116391 651712 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but it depends on distance in a nonlinear way < 1339116400 882894 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1339116422 716667 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i guess we are close enough to the moon that we cant consider the projection orthographic < 1339116449 779420 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think the apparent diameter is what counts for that, actually < 1339116466 679621 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's approximately as distorted for the moon as for the sun < 1339116475 779187 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1339116494 70729 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :since they have approximately the same apparent diameter < 1339116765 183507 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angular_diameter has formulas - apparently the difference just amounts to using arcsin for spheres instead of arctan for disks < 1339116932 677495 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: that also has lists including the sun and venus < 1339116965 459545 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i guess it doesn't tell exactly how they vary < 1339117345 916207 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1339117976 339888 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1339118120 745090 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-34-139-107.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1339118279 964266 :pikhq_!~pikhq@168-103-249-73.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1339118299 587469 :PatashuXantheres!~Patashu@c27-253-127-153.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au NICK :Patashu < 1339119017 627828 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PART :#esoteric < 1339120182 569254 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-153-69.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1339120354 529551 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-34-139-107.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1339120940 758204 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-34-150-204.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1339120950 358616 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-153-69.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1339121276 798173 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> sqrt 0.7 < 1339121278 231996 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : 0.8366600265340756 < 1339121571 555694 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-34-150-204.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1339121575 828070 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-139-118.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1339121733 387797 :david_werecat!~david_wer@24-52-224-101.cable.teksavvy.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1339121765 874444 :Patashu!~Patashu@c27-253-127-153.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1339122130 968286 :Patashu!Patashu@c27-253-127-153.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1339123031 393947 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1339123837 436754 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so why is this channel full of people from .fi < 1339123846 427948 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it just that y'all speak an esoteric language from birth < 1339123856 407904 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it appears i might go to .fi in august or something < 1339123858 216669 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what should i do there < 1339123869 514952 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know what some monads are which are the codensity of something and/or the free monad of something? < 1339123876 105779 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Learn their language < 1339123894 101517 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Go to the sauna! < 1339123898 643955 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hear it's a popular activity. < 1339123919 124846 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What are you ending up there? < 1339123938 428970 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, it's 6 in .fi right now. < 1339124065 952345 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah sauna would be cool < 1339124089 21290 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Esoteric programming is "a thing" in Finland, I think. < 1339124093 410003 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or at least, more of a thing than it is elsewhere. < 1339124096 693751 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like the demoscene! Except not. < 1339124104 844333 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm yeah < 1339124108 938615 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"the esoscene" < 1339124114 833174 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that makes sense now < 1339124127 914095 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, now i can ask why .fi is the world center of demoscene + esoteric programming < 1339124147 316904 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: because they have nothing else to do all fucking day in that frozen wasteland? < 1339124155 78580 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sex, drinking < 1339125720 433544 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: you can't drink ice < 1339125853 405972 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: oh yeah < 1339125854 961402 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i had mosh questions < 1339125859 375521 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you able to answer them < 1339125881 693098 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Are you committing IRC sin #1 on purpose. :-( < 1339125888 606560 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1339125898 816040 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I *am* IRC sin #1. < 1339125899 803244 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: sure, you can also try #mosh < 1339125910 161106 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: no way why would i talk to a whole channel of people when just one would do < 1339125915 618238 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not actually a mosh question that's the great part < 1339125920 633584 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just a question about mosh's internals! < 1339125924 765616 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: The point is that if kmc can't answer your question, he'd feel bad. < 1339125926 555205 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not even *using* mosh right now! < 1339125931 501462 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or if he's too lazy to answer your question. < 1339125933 636823 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: That seems perfectly fine to me. < 1339125945 587750 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just ask < 1339125946 540888 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course people should feel bad if they can't/won't answer my questions! < 1339125948 708192 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know. That's why we made it a Law of IRC. < 1339125953 73552 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :døød < 1339125960 789563 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then tell me something cool to do in .fi < 1339125968 125956 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. < 1339125969 220104 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But first! < 1339125975 728204 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: There's some nifty food to eat in .fi. < 1339125984 310726 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So make sure you eat something while you're there. < 1339125988 355172 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also what are you doing in .fi? < 1339125989 316138 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: So, my understanding is that mosh roughly works by synchronising the big-block-of-cells that is the terminal display between server and client. < 1339126003 866450 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: i'm doing what elliott tells me to, clearly! < 1339126022 945546 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, Stair Dismount et al. are from Finland too < 1339126032 195379 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: But a terminal doesn't quite work like a big block of cells. For instance, there's a difference between the line "a " and "a"; there's a concept of a line ending that affects things like selecting text in a graphical terminal. < 1339126034 328507 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i played a lot of Stair Dismount and Truck Dismount back in my day < 1339126036 447419 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :How does mosh represent this? < 1339126057 172035 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: sec, I will find for you the actual object which is synchronized < 1339126069 544627 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1339126081 154755 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc is punishing my law violation by making me read C++. < 1339126086 888139 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically < 1339126087 93482 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :In return I will give him awful things to do in Finland. < 1339126095 775160 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And he will be obligated to do them. < 1339126105 671817 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :visit fizzie < 1339126106 833086 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :vizzie < 1339126110 136898 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of the classes in src/terminal/terminalframebuffer.h are dedicated to this question < 1339126111 35569 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: HEY WHERE IS THE LIST OF IRC SINS I CANNOT FIND THEM < 1339126119 707227 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i need to know if i have a complete set < 1339126131 758613 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The grand vizzier. < 1339126136 18519 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :They should arrest people who make you source dive after asking questions. < 1339126138 187064 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: The list of IRC sins is infinite. < 1339126145 734714 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@where e_10 < 1339126146 273911 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :let(!)=div;f n=1:n:1:f(n+2);w@(x:y)%[a,b,c,d]|t<-a!c,c+d>1,t==b!d=t:w%[10*(a-c*t),10*(b-d*t),c,d]|0<1=y%[x*a+b,a,x*c+d,c]in(2:f 2)%[1,0,0,1]>>=show < 1339126149 87185 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I ported that program to bash! < 1339126152 176166 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Using UNIX streams. < 1339126157 173502 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It "just worked" < 1339126167 876084 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a cell has a vector of unicode characters (because of combining chars), a width (a la wcwidth), a set of "renditions" i.e. color, bold, etc, and a flag saying whether it should wrap to the next line on select (if it's in the last column) < 1339126185 865780 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Hmm. So you store it as a linear array? < 1339126188 345450 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rather than two-dimensional? < 1339126189 934788 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(So to speak.) < 1339126192 377840 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : døød <-- deeath? oh dear. < 1339126193 57909 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then a row is a vector of cells < 1339126195 972089 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1339126197 694739 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linearray. < 1339126200 305971 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see. < 1339126206 991579 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linear A. < 1339126216 34556 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a framebuffer has a vector of rows, an icon name, a window name, and a count of the number of times the bell has ever been rung on the server < 1339126218 171946 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That makes sense. Unfortunately, applying that to my design would reduce its utility... < 1339126222 700722 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think. < 1339126223 780926 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not sure. < 1339126232 75903 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Bell count? Why? < 1339126235 773132 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh-oh, is this for your roguelike? < 1339126242 958264 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: MAYBE. < 1339126251 996840 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :LET ME GUESS < 1339126255 245288 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOUR ROGUELIKE IS CALLED < 1339126256 132146 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@ < 1339126258 873284 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : oerjan: The list of IRC sins is infinite. <-- oh dear < 1339126259 741186 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. :( < 1339126261 876846 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: the client needs to ring the bell if the server did < 1339126263 888838 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's called "roguelike" right now. < 1339126284 128594 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Right now I just represent the screen as a two-dimensional grid of Chars. < 1339126284 602630 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when the client gets a new frame, if the new bellcount is greater than the old one, it rings the bell once < 1339126287 108084 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And synchronise that. < 1339126296 223001 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's super-convenient to code with but messes up copying of textual stuff. < 1339126300 722958 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure whether I care enough to fix it. < 1339126307 716013 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this means that if the remote programs spews a bunch of bells, the client bell will ring only at the framerate < 1339126314 35039 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is probably one of the most obscure mosh improvements over ssh < 1339126322 634794 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's an improvement? < 1339126327 994450 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously ;) < 1339126330 655903 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: You should add that to the website. < 1339126335 121071 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1339126343 100685 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"for too long, mankind has suffered under the tyranny of BEL" < 1339126344 23744 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'll convince all the HN users. < 1339126363 116388 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Mosh: Suckless awesome terminal bell, done right. Reinvented, again." < 1339126386 435103 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :from Apple < 1339126392 586340 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :A terminal bell that celebrates craftmanship? < 1339126396 912799 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1339126407 734109 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a terminal bell that celebrates bronzesmithing < 1339126423 300542 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :bellissimo < 1339126424 145058 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Does it mean that if something rings the bell a million times, I'll get one bell per keystroke for the foreseeable future? < 1339126434 105218 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: It's the RHYTHM OF LIFE. < 1339126456 181701 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-221-74.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :does anyone even use bells < 1339126462 463094 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: no, the server pushing new terminal frames is independent of the client pushing input to the server < 1339126467 272420 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1339126471 736109 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I guess that's something. < 1339126498 80190 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: so it'll just constant belling for the next hour? < 1339126501 35050 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i want constant belling :( < 1339126508 918671 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are two instances of the (higher level parts of) SSP, one in each direction < 1339126513 410400 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not constant belling < 1339126520 964862 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"If one bell rings in the Tower of Bray / Ding dong, your true love will stay. / Ding, dong, one bell today / In the tower of Bray / Ding, Dong!" < 1339126532 936155 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the server tries to get your terminal state up to the current state as quickly as possible < 1339126543 603874 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't care if it skips intermediate states < 1339126551 751895 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You mean I'll ... miss out on bells? < 1339126557 479331 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you'll get one bell per frame transition, max < 1339126558 20892 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1339126561 103735 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you will miss out on bells :( < 1339126565 116153 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :FIX MOSH < 1339126567 662080 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. :-( < 1339126570 237255 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Not good! < 1339126581 161528 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: What if I use a program to play music through the bell? < 1339126584 49790 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'll MANGLE it. < 1339126585 580543 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :My terminal program has a little number that indicates how many bells have played since the last time it had focus. < 1339126595 364169 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there an xterm escape code to set the frequency and duration of a bell < 1339126596 619115 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably < 1339126598 880248 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: Who doesn't use bells? < 1339126607 284549 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Who said you need those for music? < 1339126607 591104 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: what program is that? < 1339126625 915570 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf uses... uh, what's an embarrassing terminal emulator to use. < 1339126626 584855 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can write a program to play 4'33" in ANSI C < 1339126628 508489 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Mac OS Terminal < 1339126628 834380 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :aterm. shachaf uses aterm. < 1339126632 1316 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1339126635 34271 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's more embarrassing. < 1339126636 835064 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I outdid you! < 1339126637 159991 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: st < 1339126641 939920 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://st.suckless.org/ < 1339126642 99584 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't actually use it that much. < 1339126643 630262 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Is st that bad? < 1339126649 545512 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I heard it was crappy at Unicode a while back. < 1339126651 238991 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But then got bette.r < 1339126653 296413 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*better. < 1339126658 385462 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no i don't have much information really < 1339126668 875072 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only use it when I happen to be using a Mac OS machine. < 1339126674 177944 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUT THE POINT STANDS < 1339126685 64709 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Did you know: The OS X Terminal can't display dark grey? < 1339126687 669322 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The terminal icon gets a little number that says how many notifications you've had. < 1339126695 84685 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It displays bold black as black. Even if you set "use bright fonts for bold" on. < 1339126711 1607 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :20:38 elliott shachaf: Did you know: The OS X Terminal can't display dark grey? < 1339126721 697246 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :THE JOKE IS THAT I DON'T SEE THE DARK-GREY ANGLE BRACKETS. < 1339126746 935264 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Did you know I use uxterm in X11 to play roguelikes on OS X? < 1339126752 937855 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because Terminal.app can't display dark grey. < 1339126761 624779 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :AN UNDISCOVERED FACT. < 1339126775 17686 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you know the Ubuntu version of gnome-terminal changes ANSI blue to Canonical aubergine? < 1339126795 934705 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Real roguelikers play with color=off! < 1339126798 975365 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you know kmc, fix my code. :( < 1339126799 960934 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like DeathOnAStick. < 1339126805 930529 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Poor DOAS. < 1339126807 843394 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: There's a Crawl player who doesn't use autoexplore! < 1339126812 735024 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Me! < 1339126816 222552 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I saw his second ascension < 1339126822 96036 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :he actually succeeded in getting all the gems < 1339126825 526789 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: me 2 < 1339126826 399216 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :04:40 undermind[1/2]: Wins at a ridiculous win percentage very slowly. Doesn't use autoexplore. < 1339126827 204399 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :but couldn't get his giants to carry them < 1339126829 395168 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :so he gave up < 1339126830 1421 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1339126832 90794 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :04:40 undermind[2/2]: Nobody knows anything about undermind. < 1339126833 676407 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Eh? < 1339126835 813114 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: No, he completed it. < 1339126841 129293 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: well he gave up on the gems < 1339126842 843715 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :not on ascending < 1339126844 372744 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1339126850 610116 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :he took what he could carry < 1339126855 93037 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :which was a lot less than he had < 1339126858 970596 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"He/she tried again years later, ascending after 405 hours on August 16, 2010 with over 8,000 gems." < 1339126861 943105 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why didn't he use the bag-of-holding-in-bag-of-holding trick? < 1339126885 342204 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: he had left at least that many on dlvl 1 < 1339126892 601760 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, OK. < 1339126893 211314 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: so where should i go in .fi < 1339126898 934680 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Visit oklopol. < 1339126905 389152 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"carry unlimited gems: the bag-of-holding-in-bag-of-holding trick" < 1339126933 420554 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: so maybe Mosh won't handle your bell music very well, otoh it's much better than ssh at handling mplayer -vo caca < 1339126968 486957 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm tired. :( < 1339126981 769378 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: But seriously, visit oklopol. < 1339126990 322687 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"mosh, mo problems" < 1339126992 574122 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"as they say" < 1339127003 179785 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where is oklopol? < 1339127008 559936 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh. < 1339127009 576117 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Somewhere. < 1339127011 540250 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ask him. < 1339127012 828549 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Finland's a big place. < 1339127013 380956 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's in... < 1339127014 947043 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh < 1339127017 839866 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forget the name of the place. < 1339127020 173806 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not Espoo. < 1339127021 686887 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's... < 1339127023 104035 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh. < 1339127024 978480 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: WHere are you? < 1339127026 415913 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Where < 1339127039 297872 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Finland's population density is 16/km^2 < 1339127068 339765 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm tired. Eurgh. < 1339127077 922045 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you know that lif esucks? < 1339127078 81180 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course "the part of .fi that people actually live in" has a much higher density. < 1339127111 593525 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what lif is though. < 1339127113 830047 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or what esucking is. < 1339127230 505615 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :espoo is not far from helsinki < 1339127231 765473 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: turku? < 1339127236 320862 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Yes. < 1339127238 466662 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Turku. < 1339127244 732361 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Go visit oklopol in Turku. < 1339127247 699980 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been to Turku! < 1339127249 292834 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It isn't really optional < 1339127250 956444 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*optional. < 1339127253 707929 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: what is it like? < 1339127256 275255 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't go to Finland and not meet oklopol. < 1339127256 633082 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in turku < 1339127263 79928 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i could visit turkey and turku! < 1339127286 631047 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I went to Finland and not meet oklopol. < 1339127300 199228 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: You actually died. < 1339127304 868493 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Will you visit oklopol? < 1339127307 730829 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"oh :'(" < 1339127336 522037 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: kmc visited me once when he was in the US! < 1339127348 450742 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The previous statement is actually untrue. < 1339127354 433505 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :We met by accident. < 1339127364 76456 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :itym .us < 1339127366 583561 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: you know the two of us trying to get oklopol visitors is karmic irony, right? < 1339127385 761334 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: itym .com < 1339127394 779295 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fsvo karmic; irony < 1339127412 728386 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Today kmc taught me that the US is the best country. < 1339127420 350267 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is your business ISO-3103 compliant??? < 1339127500 965115 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know if data LeftCoT m f x = forall z. LeftCo (f (m z) -> x) (f z); is a comonad? Do you know if it is a comonad transformer? < 1339127505 663501 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for only 44 swiss francs you too can learn how to make an international standard cup of tea, with or without milk, in english or french! < 1339127514 21117 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: browsing the ig nobel? < 1339127522 599419 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, just browsing weird ISO standards < 1339127541 36590 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Should I buy the `humble bundle'? < 1339127545 884499 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Of course. < 1339127548 501753 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Did you hear that kmc is moving to CA? < 1339127551 978937 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lies < 1339127560 838013 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Buy me a `humble' `bundle'. < 1339127570 438950 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: .ca or .ca.us? < 1339127577 187884 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: What lies? < 1339127588 983238 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rumors of my moving to CA are greatly exaggerated < 1339127594 804907 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just asked elliott if he heard them. < 1339127608 210685 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Good question < 1339127616 286272 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: CA. < 1339127618 174489 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :could move to .cat < 1339127624 770456 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: You know, the one with Ontario in it? < 1339127626 527315 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :.dog < 1339127646 396454 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :hask.cat < 1339127659 152696 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: right, i've been there < 1339127671 171397 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Been where? < 1339127678 512729 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :in ontario < 1339127681 841591 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ontario, California? < 1339127687 926484 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1339127706 817719 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION swats shachaf -----###
< 1339127725 972509 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i should have suspected that, i guess. < 1339127729 641513 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: You should add an extra '-' to your swatter. < 1339127730 550403 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nyan.cat < 1339127737 500262 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: no; stop < 1339127756 759976 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: no, 5+3 is the unchangeable standard < 1339127766 80251 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION swats oerjan ------###
< 1339127769 947594 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok so technically it once was 4+3 < 1339127783 279877 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION swats oerjan ----$$$
< 1339127790 168402 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Why did it grow from 4 to 5? < 1339127797 426137 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: someone lost a - < 1339127816 755546 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :vaguely possibly monqy < 1339127834 199032 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or was monqy even around back then < 1339127836 706473 :dashing-fellow!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1339127839 484278 :dashing-fellow!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi oerjan < 1339127844 41018 :dashing-fellow!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com NICK :dashingfellow < 1339127849 535145 :dashingfellow!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :"oopse :'(" < 1339127854 883686 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi dashingfellowcompletelynotshachaf < 1339127865 557526 :dashingfellow!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com QUIT :Client Quit < 1339127886 860959 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: did you lose a - < 1339127887 699882 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Would you look at that! < 1339127939 893981 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION picks up the -
< 1339127947 907313 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION swats shachaf -----###-
< 1339127949 271423 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :- - - - - - - - - - < 1339127960 40373 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oops you did it backward < 1339128000 26418 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1339128023 59499 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION swats elliott -----###-----------
< 1339128028 754058 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :help < 1339128030 739085 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :im impale < 1339128069 913069 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :im impale le < 1339128078 159474 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :im impapale le < 1339128118 410786 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :im impalindrome emordnilapmi mi < 1339128184 377874 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`pastelogs -----### < 1339128199 852959 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :──────### < 1339128213 778527 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.12354 < 1339128218 272883 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :──────███ < 1339128234 108097 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :-. < 1339128238 199192 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :----.---- < 1339128242 85175 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Have you ever considered a being a roguelike game? < 1339128273 914419 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah it was Slereah_ < 1339128295 402705 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: paste.12354 < 1339128296 786549 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or more precisely, Slereah- < 1339128300 293194 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :COINCIDIENCE????? < 1339128301 665817 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah_: hi < 1339128375 895975 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`log ----#### < 1339128382 760786 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`pastlogs ----#### < 1339128386 335814 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`logs ----#### < 1339128390 711686 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`echo ----#### < 1339128395 862445 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pastlogs: not found < 1339128409 993031 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1339128414 51797 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: logs: not found < 1339128414 212229 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​----#### < 1339128420 414013 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually it's not quite clear from that day whether that _was_ Slereah_ < 1339128554 676279 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I heard kmc will "probably" end up in CA. < 1339128566 367332 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's going to teleport to a random location on the globe < 1339128571 225915 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :our hearts, minds, legs are with him < 1339128591 748774 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Did you "get the humble bundle" ? ?? < 1339128592 51980 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps idempotent applicative should be defined as follows: liftPair . fanout = fmap fanout since then it can be used with any fanout category. < 1339128598 873295 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Not `yet'. < 1339128601 689509 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Buy it for me. < 1339128605 956052 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Done. < 1339128610 427035 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanx. < 1339128621 40852 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION finds the actual JOIN in raw.txt to confirm
< 1339128633 491013 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: raw.txt? < 1339128636 890455 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1339128645 234058 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you were talking about some SQL database logs. :-( < 1339128666 883064 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf loves databases. < 1339128670 302904 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially Y Combinator-funded ones. < 1339128686 769705 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like this definiiton of idempotent applicatives? < 1339128699 920981 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Is your definition of idempotent applicatives a database? < 1339128704 285225 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If so, I hear I love it. < 1339128740 269264 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: No, it is what I wrote above. < 1339128787 483732 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: no, http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/2008-12-04-raw.txt < 1339128801 718339 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I figured. < 1339128974 188771 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :And a commutative applicative would be defined as liftPair . swap = fmap swap . liftPair < 1339130907 204139 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1339131063 512071 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What kind of monad is (Codensity (Warbler (Kleisli IO)))? < 1339131284 18631 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :a monadic one < 1339131319 760327 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1339131398 168726 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know that; (Codensity anything) is always a monad. But here it is also MonadPlus, it is like (Codensity Endo) but endomorphisms of a different category so what does it make? Is it like monad fold (like how foldlM and so on)? < 1339133737 966013 :TodPunk!~Tod@166-70-93-209.ip.xmission.com QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1339133955 830164 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is codensity < 1339133976 509241 :TodPunk!~Tod@166-70-93-209.ip.xmission.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1339133987 612989 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i guess it's just some haskell thing < 1339134031 53969 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Yes, Codensity is some Haskell thing < 1339134049 307769 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cont x = Codensity (Const x) is one < 1339134187 384149 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what's Cont? < 1339134281 812029 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Continuation monad < 1339134310 674652 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i had a hunch. no idea what that is. < 1339134333 722475 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another one would be [] = Codensity Endo < 1339134348 59104 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what's Endo? < 1339134363 9057 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Endomorphisms of (->) category < 1339134410 315017 :AnnApolis!~chatzilla@global-2-4.nat.csx.cam.ac.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1339134423 624344 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what does Codensity do for that? < 1339134428 374072 :AnnApolis!~chatzilla@global-2-4.nat.csx.cam.ac.uk PRIVMSG #esoteric :alright folks :) < 1339134445 238710 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnnApolis: life is great < 1339134446 729209 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Do for what? < 1339134451 203584 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Endo < 1339134478 975301 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i assume "[] = Codensity Endo" means something < 1339134483 386494 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :newtype Codensity f x = Codensity (forall z. (x -> f z) -> f z); newtype Endo x = Endo (x -> x); < 1339134496 321216 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: So, that means it is the same kind of monad < 1339134551 555925 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :So that, return is a single element list, join is concatenation of the lists in the list, mzero is empty list, and mplus is concatenation of two lists together. < 1339134566 537426 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You might see that it is just the fold function for a list < 1339134589 757942 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i might see that what is the fold function? < 1339134600 571545 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Codensity? < 1339134648 918945 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Fold function for a list [x] would be of type (forall z. (x -> z -> z) -> z -> z) < 1339134662 449290 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1339134702 412507 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay so the fold is of type Codensity < 1339134707 481525 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :*-the < 1339134713 559038 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The endomorphisms for some object of some category forms a monoid, so you can use mzero and mplus < 1339134724 633373 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it just happens to be the correct monoid < 1339134755 415702 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Of type (Codensity Endo) < 1339134764 974903 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1339134846 69966 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :"You might see that it is just the fold function for a list" still sounds wrong, that's not the only function of type Codensity Endo for lists. < 1339134876 280328 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, in this case it is, though. < 1339134879 13841 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i guess all sensible functions of that type might be called fold < 1339134882 53568 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :really? < 1339134914 5719 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, really, it is. And the monad is achieved entirely for free. < 1339134929 657363 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there's more to Codensity than the type you gave? < 1339134966 564693 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Well, there is also the Functor, Applicative, and Monad instances, which is available for (Codensity f) without needing anything from f. < 1339135025 896980 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The MonadPlus instance, however, requires class Plus f where { zero :: f x; plus :: f x -> f x -> f x; }; < 1339135050 264684 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the case of Endo, it is already Monoid so you can easily have: instance Plus Endo where { zero = mempty; plus = mappend; }; < 1339135064 660147 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i guess i'd have to understand what instances are < 1339135150 548319 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Do you mean in general or for Codensity? < 1339135161 8316 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably first in general < 1339135211 944714 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :In general, it means that certain operations are defined for a type, for example, Monoid class instances are for types that form a monoid. < 1339135223 411194 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1339135233 46844 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is what it is. < 1339135264 300065 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but could you explain where the connection between Codensity and list comes from? < 1339135334 575187 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: It is achieved *for free*. < 1339135365 732418 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if i were to write a list type of my own, there would only be one function of type Codensity Endo and that would be its fold? < 1339135379 817027 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if i stored the list in a database < 1339135401 291782 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean < 1339135411 278095 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i make it a monad, is that all i need? < 1339135423 101815 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Actually what I mean is, the type (Codensity Endo x) is isomorphic to [x] so (Codensity Endo x) can also be used as a list. < 1339135493 386154 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know such things as if you wanted to make a list structure in something like Unlambda or Lazy K, you need to define all data structures by some kind of function? A list can be defined by a fold function, and it is the same thing here. < 1339135530 663436 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm alright < 1339135644 19779 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i still feel like there's a function body somewhere that computes the fold. < 1339135650 803644 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless it really comes free from the type < 1339135670 428965 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It comes free from the Codensity monad < 1339135729 512106 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there is more to it than the type < 1339135733 484135 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The definition is: instance Monad (Codensity f) where { return x = Codensity (\k -> k x); m >>= k = Codensity (\c -> runCodensity m (\a -> runCodensity (k a) c)); }; < 1339135733 700271 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1339135737 924367 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah thanks < 1339135830 697229 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could you please give an example of a value of type Codensity Endo Something? < 1339135849 430925 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is what was already there; I added the Alternative and MonadPlus instances myself which works as: instance Plus f => Alternative (Codensity f) where { empty = Codensity (const zero); Codensity x <|> Codensity y = Codensity (liftA2 plus x y); }; < 1339135868 629756 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ion: return 5 <|> return 6 <|> return 7 is like the list [5,6,7] < 1339135888 456580 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah the <|> operator we all know so well < 1339135907 334888 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, should have figured i can just try “return”. :-) < 1339135911 746522 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but isn't the fold function for lists of type x an example < 1339135945 491467 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :In [] in fact it is also the list [5,6,7] but with (Codensity Endo) it is the fold function for the list [5,6,7] so it is same things!!! < 1339135956 975348 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :!!! < 1339135989 331078 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be fun to understand some haskell < 1339135992 579043 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe some day < 1339136034 401092 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i'm pretty sure you can't understand it without a phd in mathematics < 1339136038 777126 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i have to try again in a few years < 1339136040 625833 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would prefer to define join as a class method but unfortunately Haskell does not do like that < 1339136052 316132 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does some module implement an Alternative Endo instance? < 1339136068 347089 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: No, it is possible to understand without a PhD in mathematics, but I suppose it helps. I do not have a PhD in mathematics, but I do like mathematics, and to me that is good enough. < 1339136073 340517 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh god another crazy haskell understander < 1339136077 465584 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have to leave < 1339136094 52292 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: i hear phd's get all the chicks < 1339136095 629414 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ion: To do so, it would have to be Applicative which isn't since Endo is not even Functor < 1339136100 283721 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote < oklopol> oh god another crazy haskell understander < oklopol> i have to leave < 1339136102 924760 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: I don't care < 1339136103 619423 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :844) < oklopol> oh god another crazy haskell understander < oklopol> i have to leave < 1339136114 827587 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :`randomquote < 1339136116 593074 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: don't you like girls? < 1339136117 591315 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: randomquote: not found < 1339136122 802984 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls < 1339136125 368615 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ canary \ foo \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom < 1339136129 318258 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls bin < 1339136132 48709 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​? \ @ \ No \ WELCOME \ WeLcOmE \ addquote \ allquotes \ anonlog \ calc \ define \ delquote \ etymology \ forget \ fortune \ frink \ google \ hatesgeo \ jousturl \ json \ k \ karma \ karma+ \ karma- \ learn \ log \ logurl \ macro \ maketext \ marco \ paste \ pastefortunes \ pastekarma \ pastelog \ pastelogs \ pastenquotes \ pastequotes \ pastewisdom \ pastlog \ ping \ prefixes \ qc \ quachaf \ quote \ quotes \ randomanonlog < 1339136137 637083 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: I don't like or dislike < 1339136142 10173 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls quotes < 1339136144 856270 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :quotes < 1339136152 370649 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :`help < 1339136154 378375 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ < 1339136157 803794 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: do you neutral them? < 1339136159 246946 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ion: Edward Kmett's Plus requires Functor but my Plus does not require Functor, so Endo can be an instance of my Plus. < 1339136184 78205 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Neutral in terms of like/dislike, I suppose it would be so. < 1339136184 908666 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I mean, return 5 <|> return 6 <|> return 7 :: Codensity Endo Integer doesn’t compile here because there’s no instance for Alternative Endo. < 1339136197 568322 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1339136200 520208 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :666) elliott, cars aren't perfectly spherical. < 1339136201 745389 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1339136202 518793 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1339136205 194012 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :733) oerjan: Hey, what's your country code for telephonistic dialling from the outside world? fizzie: +47 oerjan: Ooh, you're, like, right next to Sweden there. I... guess you are geographically, too. < 1339136211 301761 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's bury them in quotes mwahahaha < 1339136215 899930 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ion: That is true; but if the instances are defined in my way instead then it will compile and even work < 1339136216 787717 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :369) hey fhet's zeees OouooH SNEP IT'S A FOooCKING TIGER < 1339136254 803685 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Ah, i thought we were talking about the “standard” Codensity and Endo. < 1339136268 17139 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38 is the standard. < 1339136278 452641 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Yes, that’s why i put it in quotes. :-P < 1339136287 968611 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1339136297 126972 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ion: It is the standard types but the instances for Alternative Codensity are different. < 1339136304 143238 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: what is your age? < 1339136308 641898 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the Plus class also differs. < 1339136310 634392 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :38 < 1339136315 368626 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I do not want to say. < 1339136337 343127 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ion: Not all the time! < 1339136341 902201 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm gonna make a wild guess: 24 < 1339136370 220957 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :fair < 1339136440 655648 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :A wild guess? You have no educated guess? < 1339136545 379000 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ion: There is no really standard Codensity but the Endo is the standard one yes < 1339136600 782162 :calamari!~calamari@ip72-211-147-156.tc.ph.cox.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1339136893 887737 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: no, i have no educated guess < 1339136934 916592 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1339136948 977333 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i didn't pull that out of my ass but you can be a bit hard to read. < 1339136981 863881 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do I write messy? < 1339137001 385764 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not what i mean by hard to read < 1339137062 870031 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just what we psychics say when a client doesn't fit one of the usual patterns. < 1339137111 250966 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :O, that is what it means. In that case I suppose you are correct about that < 1339137226 470164 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but on a different note, yes, you do write kinda messy :D < 1339137385 262247 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why do you think I write messy? < 1339137413 477328 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno, you have this whole thing going on. i don't know if messy is the right word. < 1339137437 566737 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i keep getting this "women in mathematics" thing in my inbox < 1339137446 861300 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :why isn't there a Real Men in Mathematics conference < 1339137492 470146 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :where people stroke each others' beards and implement braid groups in them < 1339137517 524521 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :My writing seems to me to be neater than other people's writing, although the words are different < 1339137561 838021 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, i find that interesting. < 1339137565 109821 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Perhaps there isn't, because nobody has made it up yet. < 1339137579 83369 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps i should do it < 1339137612 803793 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :now i just need a beard that turns invisible when i tell it to < 1339137686 186733 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Magic beard? < 1339137688 929245 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1339137727 404969 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise i have to shave it now and then < 1339137749 968444 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then use a fake beard if you do not want to shave; you can add it and remove it when you want to. < 1339137750 913285 :TeruFSX!~TeruFSX@97-127-209-31.dlth.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1339137760 671270 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1339137764 604007 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :that might work < 1339137775 153389 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote 823 < 1339137777 948221 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :823) `delquote 848 < 1339137778 107955 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But if people pull it, it might fall off < 1339137781 876098 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :`delquote 823 < 1339137786 393134 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​*poof* `delquote 848 < 1339137797 621687 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote 847 < 1339137800 589712 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1339137813 262512 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :`delquote 785 < 1339137815 123580 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i know what you mean, i too wonder whether i'd pull the beard off. < 1339137816 223984 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​*poof* s'f'slg;sd'sdfjhklf;sdklfjdfklgj < 1339138047 928235 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://arxiv.org/pdf/1202.3670v2.pdf i wonder if P != NP has been proved more times than this? < 1339138328 660867 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1339138341 97965 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :As well as Codensity monad, there is also Density comonad < 1339138621 914738 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is better, liberty or order? < 1339138641 265385 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(even though you may have both) < 1339138763 516587 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@apn-37-7-136-97.dynamic.gprs.plus.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1339138901 435804 :AnnApolis!~chatzilla@global-2-4.nat.csx.cam.ac.uk PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://manyhills.webs.com/bitten.html < 1339138921 75479 :AnnApolis!~chatzilla@global-2-4.nat.csx.cam.ac.uk PRIVMSG #esoteric :i assume i have duplicated something that already exists < 1339139036 465374 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't see where unbounded memory comes from < 1339139069 933319 :TeruFSX!~TeruFSX@97-127-209-31.dlth.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1339139181 90364 :AnnApolis!~chatzilla@global-2-4.nat.csx.cam.ac.uk PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, when a mummy unbounded memory and a daddy unbounded memory love each other very much < 1339139673 234728 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you show a program that fills the memory with 1's? < 1339139777 616941 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :has anyone formalized the wire-crossing problem? < 1339139781 961482 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I just thought of a formalization of it < 1339139786 527614 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :do tell < 1339139891 846326 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, an idea that might lead to one, anyways < 1339140009 294821 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :work by bisecting the state into a "graph-like" portion and a non-"graph-like" portion, where the "graph-like" portion is the varying details of a programming language. < 1339140025 370288 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like the idea of effectively turning a finite set of bf programs into a program that wins them all in BFJoust < 1339140070 58258 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i bet you could publish that (TM) < 1339140077 558416 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, if L is a language of automata of some kind, such as Turing machines, then you try to split it into the notion of a program and its input < 1339140096 310659 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(TM is short for turing machine) < 1339140106 153168 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the program can be made abstratly into a transition graph < 1339140117 4820 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(e.g. "this line will lead to this line or that line") < 1339140126 586608 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :or "this cell will lead to one of these four cells" in Befunge < 1339140184 188911 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds impossible to formalize < 1339140200 308165 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you define automata somehow < 1339140201 113644 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure if you can characterize it uniquely for all automata < 1339140257 829119 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :but a TM, for instance, could have its program graph defined to be the set of transitions, with edges existing from one transition to another if they can follow each other. < 1339140269 821137 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, that might be sufficient < 1339140279 3519 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :no... no it's not < 1339140292 612108 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, there's no obvious unique characterization < 1339140318 212981 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can usually associate a transition graph to any kind of computation, yes < 1339140335 154548 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i don't think it has that much to do with the wire-crossing problem < 1339140335 947437 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not a state graph though < 1339140382 718531 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I think this matters < 1339140390 459487 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :or I could be sleep-deprivede < 1339140393 566064 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :goodnight < 1339140470 411636 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1339141223 54503 :AnnApolis!~chatzilla@global-2-4.nat.csx.cam.ac.uk QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 13.0/20120601201853] < 1339141614 557194 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a kind of infinity that is used like a algebraic variable representing a nonzero real number but when it is compared is greater than any real number? < 1339141806 804388 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca QUIT :Quit: NO CARRIER < 1339141953 265083 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: sure, but you automatically get quite a lot of infinite numbers if you further assume the axioms of reals except for Dedekind completeness < 1339141958 895911 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :also you're not here anymore < 1339141993 831289 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was a recent nice survey on arxiv on ordered fields recently, but i lost it and haven't been able to find it :( < 1339142276 586597 :derdon!~derdon@pD9E1D289.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1339143352 148042 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :whii i didn't imagine it, http://arxiv.org/pdf/1204.4483v1.pdf < 1339143367 72846 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really a survey on ordered fields, instead what they say in there < 1339143383 782033 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :only had to look through a few thousand articles on my mailing list :D < 1339143593 275056 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(whii is the finnish version of whee which is simultanously pronounced "why i", as the deep national depression oozes into the briefest moment of happiness) < 1339144166 3230 :nooga!~nooga@ip-46-250-173-30.ip.maverick.com.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1339144396 682318 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1339144750 881045 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-8-22.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1339144751 222582 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-8-22.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Changing host < 1339144751 381851 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1339144928 875974 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1339145873 142468 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1339145875 689835 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello! < 1339145969 119418 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i < 1339146021 973493 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :short for hi for situations when you are mostly saying hi to yourself. < 1339146176 904511 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there's a bit of hi for you too < 1339146183 821050 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1339146667 635545 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I don't think this style of programming will ever be popular < 1339147028 397058 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :predXXIV = s (s (k s) (s (k (s (k s))) (s (s (k s) (s (k (s (k s))) (s (k (s (k k))) (s (s (k s) k) (k (s (k (s (k (s i)))) (s (k (s (k k))) (s (k (s i)) k)))))))) (k (k k))))) (k (k (k i))) < 1339147295 640307 :nortti_!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1339147299 236717 :nortti!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :@ping < 1339147299 499710 :nortti!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :does anyone hear me? < 1339147301 55668 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :pong < 1339147308 693893 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-221-74.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1339147365 93412 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah people just don't understand that if they simply bothered to learn programming with s and k, they would see that it's so much more expressive functional programming. in that you need to express so much more. < 1339147415 266385 :nortti_!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhm. can someone explain why I have two nicks here after I use /reconnect? < 1339147428 270562 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I prefer to have access to B, C, W, an I < 1339147439 961164 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti_, because you've accidentally cloned yourself? < 1339147487 931133 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :B x y z = x (y z); C x y z = x z y; W x y = x y y; I x = x < 1339147491 588159 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1339147526 613663 :nortti!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1339147551 269736 :nortti_!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :good. < 1339147556 89592 :nortti_!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi NICK :nortti < 1339148179 124525 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`pastequotes Sgeo < 1339148182 725545 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.30909 < 1339148293 79048 :FireFly!~firefly@firefly.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1339148473 875691 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1339148492 108494 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bfjoust thebasics >>(+)*50<(-)*50(>)*7(> (+)*4 ([-{ [(-)*15 [+]] }[-]])%8 )*21 < 1339148498 856130 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1339148501 455022 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​Score for quintopia_thebasics: 22.7 < 1339148519 959551 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bfjoust thebasics < < 1339148522 741733 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​Score for quintopia_thebasics: 0.0 < 1339148603 202863 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bfjoust thebasics >>(+)*50<(-)*50(>)*7(> (+)*4 ([-{ [(-)*50 [+]] }[-]])%8 )*21 < 1339148606 3573 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​Score for quintopia_thebasics: 20.4 < 1339148610 699258 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bfjoust thebasics < < 1339148613 667781 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​Score for quintopia_thebasics: 0.0 < 1339148632 703171 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparentlythe simple stuff is only enough to get you 38th place these days < 1339148661 44398 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bfjoust thebasics >>(+)*50<(-)*50(>)*7(> (+)*4 ([-{ [(-)*15 [+]] }[-]])%8 [+])*21 < 1339148663 938138 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​Score for quintopia_thebasics: 22.8 < 1339148670 779260 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1339148673 268639 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bfjoust thebasics < < 1339148676 234872 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​Score for quintopia_thebasics: 0.0 < 1339148708 485645 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@apn-37-7-136-97.dynamic.gprs.plus.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1339149440 472625 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1339149516 490846 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello! < 1339149589 159370 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1339149594 350961 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaaah! < 1339149639 620178 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :a < 1339149757 805470 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.facebook.com/LawlabeeTheWallaby/posts/3457120980849 The latest in my Beijing epic. < 1339149784 140734 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it involve a peking duck? < 1339149813 498307 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still haven't found the opportunity to eat Peking Duck without being ripped off, but I will; I have a week. < 1339150409 415782 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Think I should go to Qin's Tasty and Spicy Crabs? < 1339150424 224827 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :AKA best/worst Engrish name for a restaurant in history? < 1339150425 39101 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not likely to get duck there < 1339150431 530170 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't need duck today. < 1339150439 943014 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Qin could actually serve tasty and spicy crabs < 1339150459 658097 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it is a crab restaurant. < 1339150464 519606 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gah < 1339150471 94461 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go for it, if you like crab < 1339150474 30311 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't remember the context for something I saidn in here last year < 1339150478 779739 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looking at logs does not help. < 1339150572 555699 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah your experiences of being gawked at are not that unusual i think. i think you might find the drunk cosmopolitan set gawks less. go see a nightclub. < 1339150585 951597 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :not to dance of corse. who would do that < 1339151417 38807 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-221-74.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: hello < 1339151468 504167 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a spent-quite-a-bit-of-time-in-China friend who has mentioned the gawking, too. < 1339151597 55139 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, you are in china, nice. Business trip or holidays? < 1339151672 91920 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: A conference was mentioned, I thing. (It's fallen out of my /lastlog already, sadly.) < 1339151677 126828 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1339151682 372978 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1339151682 777021 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thing indeed. < 1339151688 706236 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm going to taipei in a few months, i expect to die of being murderously killed there. < 1339151721 751930 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :You may die of death. < 1339151726 181396 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i may. < 1339151762 422330 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to Belgium and I expect to survive. < 1339151777 22135 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :But of course you never know, about Belgium. < 1339151793 245748 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm going to novgorod in about a month and expect to die there. of being murderously killed. < 1339151806 561565 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to Durham next month. < 1339151815 795429 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: Will you die? < 1339151821 318630 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I expect to be brutally murdered by a convict prince-bishop < 1339151823 612856 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then die < 1339151823 870524 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm going to work next month < 1339151825 792106 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :all month < 1339151830 372640 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :5 minutes from home < 1339151837 655019 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :then in three months i'm going to corsica, and expect to die of sun poisoning and of being murderously killed. < 1339151845 677992 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i expect to die of boredom < 1339151925 497418 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :conference trips are basically double the work, infinitle the plane trips that hurt my ears. as they say in english. < 1339151999 587666 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you may get a free dinner. < 1339152041 211965 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :also there's conferences in slovakia and uk but my coauthor does those. i prefer the murderous ones because he has a fetish for not being murderously killed. < 1339152054 397179 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/prefer/go to/ < 1339152093 258839 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What part of the UK? < 1339152097 38501 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oxford < 1339152108 511980 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1339152108 693201 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :S/he'll get murderously killed < 1339152109 860911 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.mathcomp.leeds.ac.uk/turing2012/WScie12/ < 1339152112 394665 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :cambridge apparently < 1339152117 768703 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :w/e < 1339152119 72399 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even worse < 1339152173 614444 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: What about... Sheffield? I think my "boss" was planning a visit there. < 1339152181 455020 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sheffield's cool < 1339152186 978895 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :They've got trams and everything < 1339152189 219 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like trams < 1339152192 485856 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: do you mean your wife ehehe < 1339152194 501745 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're like trains, but on roads! < 1339152197 63675 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1339152203 893619 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :trams are cool < 1339152210 128984 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :trams are scary < 1339152219 582951 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :They've also got steelworks < 1339152235 826451 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And someone who was in my IT class two years ago until she moved to Sheffield < 1339152235 985846 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mainly because a tram can use a dedicated tunnel downtown more easily than a bus can < 1339152253 633655 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if your trams run /only/ on the street, it probably makes sense to replace them with buses < 1339152259 414736 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you can still power the buses from overhead wires) < 1339152277 811479 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's where the Full Monty is set < 1339152284 911176 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you ever seen the Full Monty? < 1339152291 537702 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :part of the tradeoff there (at least in the USA) is that the transit agency pays for rail upkeep, but the roads agency pays for road upkeep including the rail from buses < 1339152302 367641 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the roads agency has way more money always < 1339152310 620730 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's about some out-of-work steel workers who do a strip tease < 1339152334 509650 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :er "including the wear from buses" yay for being awake far too late < 1339152340 631277 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Beamish and Melbourne have trams < 1339152425 659237 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in boston there is a slightly ridiculous thing which runs as a diesel powered bus on the road, and then goes into a dedicated tunnel and runs off overhead wires < 1339152433 632492 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that tunnel is much bigger than it would need to be for rail vehicles < 1339152435 540680 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Helsinki has trams, though I don't recall any dedicated tunnels. (It's not a very dense place anyway.) < 1339152439 39262 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :They also have a new model of tram just about to be introduced, there's a prototype for people to go look at/sit in somewhere. < 1339152487 613929 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, last week or so there was this mini-conference thing, and they had booked one of the museum trams as transportation from the lecture place to the dinner place. < 1339152529 885022 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :They've got some 1930s tram carriages they rent for events. < 1339152566 718788 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's cool < 1339152573 40338 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I think in summer they have some that do a daily or weekly thing. < 1339152583 942286 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :new york city has a subway museum which is full of vintage cars < 1339152590 419296 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the museum itself is a decommissioned subway station < 1339152613 702155 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :helsinki tram is metre gauge o_O < 1339152621 54196 :nortti!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay. sain pc98 touhout pyörimään < 1339152629 770430 :nortti!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :wrong channel < 1339152642 83609 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay, anyway. < 1339152722 380034 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and they have that one tram in which they serve alcoholic beverages, the "PUB" line. < 1339152728 892092 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::3 < 1339152878 993500 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sp%C3%A5rakoff -- hey, it's notable. < 1339152883 944307 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's funny. < 1339153026 398292 :derdon!~derdon@pD9E1D289.dip.t-dialin.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1339153780 369370 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1339154370 395300 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 JOIN :#esoteric < 1339155165 852263 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wrote a program this morning and already someone wants to put it on Uncyclopedia < 1339155556 14437 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :uncyclopedia? < 1339155700 511249 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aaaah you're everywhere < 1339155901 646391 :Patashu!Patashu@c27-253-127-153.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :' I wrote a program this morning and already someone wants to put it on Uncyclopedia' < 1339155902 250830 :Patashu!Patashu@c27-253-127-153.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do tell < 1339155911 611447 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://hpaste.org/69700 < 1339155941 288550 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Factorial calculator < 1339155948 311952 :Patashu!Patashu@c27-253-127-153.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :That looks awful < 1339155952 868768 :Patashu!Patashu@c27-253-127-153.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this for a contest < 1339155961 289855 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nah, this is for fun < 1339155968 156495 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the possible inspiration for a contest < 1339155993 451720 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Almost all computation is done by (<*>), pure, and unsafeCoerce < 1339158998 379738 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@apn-37-7-136-97.dynamic.gprs.plus.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1339159454 93120 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@apn-37-7-136-97.dynamic.gprs.plus.pl QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1339159604 969759 :Patashu!Patashu@c27-253-127-153.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1339160069 847127 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1339160536 854758 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@178235033144.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1339160822 358821 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1339162333 222273 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1339162409 378674 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: Do you also reverse > and < in the palindromes? < 1339163480 617940 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Yes. < 1339163487 933565 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. < 1339163496 71152 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you should use a word that isn't "reverse" :) < 1339163506 961301 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know an exact english word for this? < 1339163509 780329 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :mirroring? < 1339163529 866797 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"mirror" sounds reasonable to me. I don't think it really matters what you call it, but I'd define it on the page, since it's quite ambiguous. < 1339163536 198354 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1339163543 157051 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1339163543 317298 :fungot!fis@selene.zem.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1339163549 128580 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: BTW, you don't need a full "equivalency" in terms of the final tape to prove TCness by translation of brainfuck. < 1339163555 717736 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :TCness only cares about whether the program halts or not. < 1339163615 269652 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@222.122.156.78 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1339163674 573898 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1339163675 579762 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@222.122.156.78 JOIN :#esoteric < 1339163679 953638 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone write a blurb for Sortle and i'll feature it :P < 1339163683 737563 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(N days late...) < 1339163822 463043 :aloril!~aloril@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe7ef900-153.dhcp.inet.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1339163919 635075 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :(http://esolangs.org/wiki/BFFB <- is that less confusing?) < 1339163972 314499 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Yes. But as of my understanding his method does not produce a program that does the same thing. < 1339163999 575916 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: Well, you gotta define "same thing" :) < 1339164005 747637 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does it halt iff the BF program halts? Then it's sufficient for TCness. < 1339164009 553601 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yes, that's less confusing. < 1339164012 866091 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :It translates the program to a valid prorgam which does something else. < 1339164029 879995 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Define "does something else". < 1339164037 130178 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :It halts in a different state < 1339164048 6725 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does that matter? < 1339164059 251974 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :I consider P and R only to be equivalent if P halts in the same state as R < 1339164064 386333 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Somehow. < 1339164069 776606 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :BF does not need I/O to be TC, right? < 1339164091 487009 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1339164097 238230 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I'm trying to say is that the halting state is irrelevant. < 1339164101 581335 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Completely. < 1339164106 783432 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I calculate the number 3 with +++- < 1339164114 39172 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :e < 1339164114 900517 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :*2 < 1339164115 272527 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :To prove TCness, all you need to prove is that you can translate a Turing machine blah blah into a program that halts iff the Turing machine does. < 1339164116 255088 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's it. < 1339164141 697929 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: That proves TCness. < 1339164146 586277 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1339164155 460510 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it does not prove, that every BF program has an equivalent bfb program. < 1339164163 637227 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, OK. < 1339164163 839898 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :In terms of "halting in the same state" < 1339164174 363018 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That seems a weird thing to wonder about :) < 1339164183 592364 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1339164199 389943 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I execute +++- I calculated 2 in memory. < 1339164202 830105 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thats my halting state < 1339164220 806188 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would it not be better to consider IO instead? < 1339164245 37140 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you only consider "producing same i/o output" then his method works, yes. < 1339164293 587853 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :int i = 0; puts("hi!"); < 1339164297 36227 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :i = 5; < 1339164297 926711 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :vs. < 1339164302 403779 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :int i = 0; puts("hi!"); < 1339164303 902522 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :i = 6; < 1339164314 156427 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't consider those programs "equivalent". < 1339164341 387728 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure you're in the minority there. < 1339164356 739997 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman, hm would you consider an optimiser for BF that changes one for the other to be incorrect then as well? < 1339164371 49918 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: If the resulting halting state is different, yes. < 1339164386 253375 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :A definition of "equivalent" depending on internal state -- even basically dead code -- like that is doomed to be more or less useless, IMO. < 1339164386 719654 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :*final < 1339164387 586550 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1339164394 265191 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, quite < 1339164412 962322 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you strip bf from its i/o < 1339164419 113214 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it would matter < 1339164434 438340 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps < 1339164442 433032 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not really. < 1339164449 451730 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't think that bf programs are required to do i/o < 1339164450 924113 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That'd just leave a language which only either halts or not halts. < 1339164457 302312 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :usually you are just interested in if it halts < 1339164462 952235 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's no requirement at all to define BF in terms of exposing its final state. < 1339164472 364733 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The tape can be part of the black box. < 1339164554 970594 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps < 1339164557 162596 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Hey, did I ask you how much you paid for the bundle? < 1339164596 947075 :aloril!~aloril@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe7ef900-153.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1339164597 560519 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :People usually say that my definition of equivalence is broken ;) < 1339164619 116308 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g i consider [0..Infinity] and [0..Infinity] to be equal :) < 1339164680 762259 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, for reference, future me paid at least $10 < 1339164713 840580 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :X and X are equal? Shocking. < 1339164855 880014 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The set of computable truths is not equal to the set of provable truths < 1339164873 972226 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea if that sentence means anything < 1339164883 222456 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or is correct < 1339164913 493332 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1339164921 565676 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aaaah < 1339164937 458967 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PART #esoteric :"get that thing away from me" < 1339165040 364109 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1339165050 147927 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I consider x = x yes. < 1339165060 941862 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :But people don't consider _|_ = _|_ < 1339165215 319736 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. They do. < 1339165220 371407 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And [0..] isn't _|_, anyway. < 1339165268 824826 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :interestingly enough NaN != NaN. That's IEEE floating point for you... < 1339165277 225975 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in other words floating point sucks) < 1339165279 121687 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 0 / 0 < 1339165286 703076 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :LAMBDABOT < 1339165291 945281 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :not here < 1339165299 691035 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor is fungot!? < 1339165301 317999 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, !!!! < 1339165304 571498 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not in #haskell, either < 1339165328 825164 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not worth four !s. < 1339165336 452331 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat "main = print (0 / 0 == 0 / 0)" | runhaskell < 1339165338 858488 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :cat: "main = print (0 / 0 == 0 / 0)" | runhaskell: No such file or directory < 1339165346 474603 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`echo "main = print (0 / 0 == 0 / 0)" | runhaskell < 1339165349 336578 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​"main = print (0 / 0 == 0 / 0)" | runhaskell < 1339165350 992380 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you don't think fungot is worth four !? < 1339165363 939003 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :they actually quat together < 1339165366 612104 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: The guys in #ghc disagreed. < 1339165369 697296 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:52 lambdabot has left IRC (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) < 1339165369 857007 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:52 fungot has left IRC (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) < 1339165372 301108 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :mystrious < 1339165388 39541 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: perhaps they meant that x == y does not necessarily evaluate to True when x and y are both _|_. < 1339165391 596206 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what I said. < 1339165396 669797 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :lambdabot <3 fungot < 1339165400 691099 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :from a denotational semantics point of view, _|_ and _|_ are unquestionably equal. < 1339165412 453265 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, there are almost certainly incompetent people in #ghc < 1339165417 441994 :fungot!fis@selene.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1339165418 557001 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :although probably less than in #haskell < 1339165421 272190 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot! < 1339165422 177624 :fungot!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: trillian is a very silly film) :) y z i think it depends < 1339165434 463638 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I think that may be a virtue of population < 1339165440 431936 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style < 1339165440 818237 :fungot!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube < 1339165446 925977 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style ss < 1339165447 472723 :fungot!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: ss (Shakespeare's writings) < 1339165452 886866 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, have at ye! < 1339165454 157991 :fungot!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: fitz. if that goe forward, we will cover it. take no offence that i would bestow vpon your worship, to correct yourself, for the thing it was. < 1339165454 318024 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Oh, and I paid $15. Felt like I should go a bit above the Linux-user average. < 1339165472 205298 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: You leave me with no choice but to pay $15.01. < 1339165474 870321 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: How much did you pay. < 1339165496 117617 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : mroman: perhaps they meant that x == y does not necessarily evaluate to True when x and y are both _|_. <-- hm, why is that? < 1339165499 172124 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I may have asked stuff like "why reverse [1..] == reverse [1..]" does not compute in human time although they are obviously equal < 1339165526 328553 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: That's a very, very different question. < 1339165528 817484 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman, because the optimiser isn't smart enough for that? < 1339165533 743512 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :and f(x) == f(x) no matter if f terminates or not. < 1339165535 696399 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: And as I've said: [1..] *is not _|_* < 1339165539 317496 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I payed �10 because I don't obsessively optimise like you. < 1339165556 185959 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is not a single _|_ in the graph of values that comprises [1..], in fact. < 1339165560 264350 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(But reverse [1..] is _|_.) < 1339165570 876022 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Then why is f(x) == f(x) not always true? < 1339165573 455494 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, you paid more than fizzie! < 1339165588 459692 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, (reverse [1..] == reverse [1..]) is _|_ because that's how (==) is defined for lists. You are confusing (==) (a function in Haskell) with = (the concept of mathematical equality). < 1339165606 944456 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb, well I paid $15, which is ~�10. < 1339165607 545525 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW, having reverse [1..] == reverse [1..] would break referential transparency. < 1339165612 777791 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1339165616 889490 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :My idea was to reduce everything as much as possible < 1339165620 934761 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember the good old days when $15 was �7.50. < 1339165621 809216 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :�10 ~= $15.43 < 1339165624 788633 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider: reverse [1..] == haltIffGoldbach'sConjecture < 1339165626 849210 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then compare expressions and optimize everything away < 1339165629 641291 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Assuming Goldbach's conjecture is false. < 1339165640 14191 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then, since haltIffGoldbach'sConjecture = _|_ and reverse [1..] = _|_, this must be true. < 1339165643 446135 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Assuming Goldbach's conjecture is true, < 1339165654 93104 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then, since haltIffGoldbach'sConjecture is [] (or something) and reverse [1..] = _|_, this must be false. < 1339165680 268011 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :So Haskell cannot have reverse [1..] == reverse [1..] evaluate to True without destroying referential transparency. < 1339165691 924953 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where the hell is lambdabot. < 1339165697 556003 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the part I never got. < 1339165706 586349 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can substitute reverse [1..] with x < 1339165709 961156 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :and x == x should be true. < 1339165711 591066 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Referential transparency means you must be able to replace an expression with its value. < 1339165720 225561 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :If reverse [1..] is _|_, and an expression containing reverse [1..] evaluates to something, < 1339165726 498457 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, dressed as a clown with no money, tied to a train on its way to Vladivostok < 1339165727 265827 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it /must/ evaluate to that same thing whenever you substitute anything else that is _|_. < 1339165732 299491 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman, how do you know you can substitute both sides with the same thing? < 1339165744 279123 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: referential transpare... < 1339165744 894935 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's obvious from textual analysis in this case, but not in general. < 1339165758 1002 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same function, same input => same output, always < 1339165766 34095 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh for fuck's sake. < 1339165770 513099 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman, (==) can't know that < 1339165771 637163 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you know they're the same function? < 1339165776 987578 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: The point is that you *cannot* add this one special case, however "obvious" it is, because you give yourself the obligation to make it work the same way even when it is NOT so trivial. < 1339165789 335169 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Hint: you can't, it's isomorphic to the halting problem.) < 1339165848 536975 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That that is computably true is not all that that is provably true is not all that that is true < 1339165851 171033 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :1.) textual analysis 2.) optimization 3.) dovetailing < 1339165854 567116 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: If you don't do that, you break referential transparency, and hence all equational reasoning. < 1339165859 595414 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Simple as that. < 1339165880 977157 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :No matter how clever you do it, you must choose between breaking RT and equational reasoning, or computing the impossible in all cases. < 1339165905 783328 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :As a side note: IIRC Fortran allows optimisation based on textual equivalence. Which is rather stupid in a non-pure language. < 1339165926 430995 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: Perhaps you are thinking of True as an "optimisation" of _|_. < 1339165939 310711 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is OK if between two equivalent expressions, one returns True and one returns _|_. < 1339165945 834736 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not true; it violates RT all the same. < 1339165999 538529 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :two equivalent expressions yield the same result. < 1339166000 152355 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric : 1.) textual analysis 2.) optimization 3.) dovetailing < 1339166018 148648 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You realise this is basically impossible to do programatically for non-trivial cases? < 1339166037 905720 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's extremely hard for humans, as well. < 1339166040 837049 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :It certainly is in complex languages like haskell. < 1339166055 596085 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're basically asking that a useless special case be added to (==). < 1339166060 195749 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1339166069 955547 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not just that ;) < 1339166081 181374 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure < 1339166087 140257 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :last [1..] * 0 also does not halt < 1339166113 226279 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :humans don't even try to evaluate last [1..] < 1339166170 890521 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :pattern matching isn't dovetailed. < 1339166207 182838 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is an usually useless special case to * instead. And if you want to catch all cases, then you need to check at runtime if one of the arguments evaluated to 0. Which won't work since one of them could take forever to evaluate < 1339166227 663411 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: It does not matter if one takes forever < 1339166235 91967 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1339166239 581049 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 halts in no time < 1339166243 585212 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does it know which one to evaluate first < 1339166250 810236 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman, which do you try first, and when do you stop trying? < 1339166251 191277 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: It does so in parallel < 1339166262 930579 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: By the way, your argument is irrelevant. < 1339166275 173567 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The specific special-case could be added to the compiler easily. < 1339166286 178920 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :What matters is that it would BREAK REFERENTIAL TRANSPARENCY. < 1339166311 345249 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman, so you want to force it to start two threads at each multiplication...? < 1339166325 24814 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Why? < 1339166334 465578 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: You can do that (the last [1..] * 0 thing) with the lub package and that can work fine. < 1339166337 192385 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: I already told you why. < 1339166353 551448 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :16:27 < elliott> Consider: reverse [1..] == haltIffGoldbach'sConjecture < 1339166366 356609 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :^- you can't say anything about that. < 1339166369 989249 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :If reverse [1..] == reverse [1..] evaluates to True, then reverse [1..] == haltIffGoldbach must evaluate to True iff Goldbach's conjecture is false. < 1339166371 181432 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to dovetail both of them. < 1339166379 239632 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can very well say something about that. < 1339166381 797092 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :RT allows me to. < 1339166448 472920 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :why must reverse [1..] == haltIff... evaluate to true? < 1339166467 541246 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, listen. < 1339166471 468185 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Referential transparency tells us we can substitute any two expressions with identical values. < 1339166482 445211 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hence, assuming the excluded middle, I will consider two cases: < 1339166488 150973 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :First, assume Goldbach's conjecture is true. < 1339166500 180553 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thus, haltIffGoldbach evaluates to []. < 1339166516 771950 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thus, reverse [1..] == haltIffGoldbach must be either False or _|_. < 1339166524 345316 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, no contradiction. < 1339166528 298869 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Next, assume Goldbach's conjecture is false. < 1339166535 31284 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thus, haltIffGoldbach evaluates to _|_. < 1339166542 606291 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now, we know that reverse [1..] evaluates to _|_. < 1339166551 365442 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Take the statement "reverse [1..] == reverse [1..] evaluates to True". < 1339166584 824376 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :By referential transparency, we can substitute "haltIffGoldbach" for "reverse [1..]" in this statement: (being able to do this is a STRICT requirement for referential transparency and equational reasoning) < 1339166595 237045 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Resulting in "reverse [1..] == haltIffGoldbach evaluates to True". < 1339166615 877285 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Popping off any assumption about Goldbach's conjecture, we can see that Haskell is required to decide whether Goldbach's conjecture is true. < 1339166629 192979 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I swear, I'm learning everything in the wrong order. < 1339166641 257178 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because if reverse [1..] == reverse [1..] evaluates to True, reverse [1..] == haltIffGoldbach MUST evaluate to True if Goldbach's conjecture is true, or False or _|_ if it is false. < 1339166642 396681 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :MUST. < 1339166647 812133 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, hm, out of interest, is it possible to implement haltIffGoldbach'sConjecture? I can see how to implement the opposite (you just have to write a function that goes on until it finds a counter example). < 1339166648 153055 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Therefore, you either must: < 1339166657 863427 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't get why you can replace reverse [1..] with iffHalt.. < 1339166661 624239 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :- break referential transparency and all equational reasoning; or < 1339166662 918068 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't know what reverse [1..] is. < 1339166665 498377 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :- not add your special case. < 1339166666 686455 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: Yes I do. < 1339166668 198244 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's _|_. < 1339166676 372663 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you want me to prove reverse [1..] is _|_? That seems a little trivial. < 1339166682 448671 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you know that? < 1339166686 252452 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathematical proof? < 1339166693 351647 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think you understand denotational semantics or equational reasoning at all, frankly. < 1339166695 193097 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here we go again... < 1339166700 653930 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman, do you even know what reverse does < 1339166702 647876 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, possibly, referential transparency. < 1339166707 812943 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I'm sort of done with this argument. < 1339166720 468963 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Oh, right, you have to negate it. < 1339166724 970362 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Same argument applies, of course. < 1339166725 642360 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: It's probably some fold with flip and : < 1339166730 853240 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, did you see my obfuscated haskell that doesn't do what the one yesterday does? < 1339166731 728807 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well yes, obviously < 1339166744 245236 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: It doesn't segfault? Gosh. < 1339166762 115040 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://hpaste.org/69700 < 1339166766 121275 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Obviously I don't understand any of them. < 1339166772 811179 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not a computer scientist at all. < 1339166773 10432 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman, OK look can you actually tell me any element of reverse [1...]? < 1339166783 894769 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/1.../1../ < 1339166784 54540 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: 9 < 1339166789 105569 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: I'm not trying to be insulting, but your position truly is untenable. < 1339166792 711026 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Very good. What index is it at? < 1339166800 693561 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I now have the dubious honour of having my code quoted on Uncyclopedia < 1339166807 284074 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: 8 probably < 1339166809 96522 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb, ouch < 1339166810 542086 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless off-by-one < 1339166812 211447 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1339166812 383617 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1339166818 680698 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman, uh, in the reversed one... < 1339166821 541620 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1339166825 600049 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's uncomputable < 1339166835 59516 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. _|_ < 1339166839 515126 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed, that is why reverse [1..] is _|_ < 1339166853 179592 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: It really is mathematically incoherent and you can try to defend it as a matter of "opinion" but in reality there is some deeper misunderstanding you have (I don't know what) that will hold you back as you try to learn about denotational semantics and equational reasoning and all of that. < 1339166863 279178 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem is, I don't consider _|_ as a value. < 1339166863 549728 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your choice if you want to keep it that way. < 1339166883 44122 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: It is. Have you learned denotational semantics yet? < 1339166894 235435 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :reverse [1..] is a function that at some point in time will or will not return anything. < 1339166902 369001 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, hmm wait isn't there a difference on some level between _|_ and Constructor _|_. < 1339166915 206035 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could come up with a semantics where _|_ is not a value.It would not be denotational and it would probably be a lot less useful, but it's disingenuous (i.e. blatantly wrong) to argue that _|_ is not a value in denotational semantics. < 1339166918 244745 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman, what has time got to do with it...? < 1339166918 404389 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman, it will trivially never halt. < 1339166920 306450 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Yes. < 1339166941 338105 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :length [_|_] == 1; length _|_ == _|_, right? < 1339166943 595506 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So isn't reverse [1..] [_|_, etc]? < 1339166946 519337 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: But you can't prove that for all functions. < 1339166949 452875 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: Yes. < 1339166951 729914 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: No. < 1339166955 611704 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Reduce the definition yourself. < 1339166961 364741 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :a language is pure if < 1339166964 522553 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The function always evaluates the same result value given the same argument value(s). " < 1339166977 49346 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that is what my base of argumentation is ;) < 1339166979 754991 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman, of course not. And? < 1339166983 664080 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can someone let me know when this nonsense stops going in circles? < 1339166986 86274 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PART #esoteric :"Thanks." < 1339166986 984590 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :reverse [1..] yields the same result as reverse [1..] < 1339166989 983549 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it would halt. < 1339166997 588154 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1339167000 843404 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :or not. < 1339167089 352343 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I don't care if it halts or not, because I know that they must yield the same result < 1339167114 362505 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't know the result of reverse [1..] < 1339167119 906720 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman, the result it yields *is* "does not halt". < 1339167147 75352 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, by the common definition. < 1339167157 999797 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm aware of that. < 1339167164 799776 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :But why do you consider "does not halt" as a result? < 1339167164 959355 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's your definition? < 1339167202 270235 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see why we can assume "does not halt" as a result. < 1339167228 488432 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman, because that's the way the entire system is defined, so if you disagree with it you're not actually talking about the same thing as everyone else. < 1339167351 612489 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok. < 1339167357 347211 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :So a function can result in < 1339167364 821666 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :a value, "does not halt" < 1339167370 468518 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman, FWIW referential transparency is defined based on the definition of 'same' that requires that two functions that do not halt are the same. < 1339167374 316456 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what in the case where you can't prove any option of them? < 1339167431 79611 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then you can't prove it has any result. < 1339167451 96852 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. you don't know whether the associated computation halts. < 1339167497 991687 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :and how do you express that? < 1339167507 460301 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that bottom, or not bottom, or nothing at all? < 1339167528 34882 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's "I don't know whether it's bottom or not" < 1339167553 826914 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK look just sit tight, wait for someone who knows what they're doing to try to teach you and accept everything they say uncritically. < 1339167558 562508 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the only hope for you. < 1339167776 481751 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't. < 1339167797 261629 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd always wonder what if functions that do not halt don't yield "does not halt" ;) < 1339167822 590721 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then go out there and find someone willing to teach you < 1339167833 767675 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you consider "does not halt" as a value, than I understand you and elliot completely. < 1339168006 542734 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :In other news, my hand's almost healed < 1339168019 686418 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman, oooh, elliott hates it when people get his name wrong. < 1339168031 658774 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just ask Taneb why his hand was injured. < 1339168044 274095 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure he hates me for several other reasons ;D < 1339168061 980277 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not entirely sure if elliott has the ability to hate. < 1339168080 594387 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :He may be severely ashamed of your existence, but I doubt he hates you. < 1339168104 440747 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But hey, I'm a na�ve idealist. < 1339168149 64920 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No elliott is definitely capable of hate. < 1339168233 626745 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott's word on this "I... expect so?" < 1339168250 285501 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And now I will go put things away < 1339168608 740114 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Back < 1339169922 665850 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1339170443 810181 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, wb < 1339170449 93866 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1339170629 396750 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: marlow just usurped you :P < 1339171612 595425 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ಠ_ಠ http://www.courthousenews.com/2012/06/06/47162.htm < 1339171706 727785 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ಠ_ಠ indeed < 1339173556 838084 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell Patashu I hope your seed scummer thing annotates the recording/save file appropriately, like wizmode does in most roguelikes. < 1339173595 11953 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh. < 1339173597 612175 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :lambdabooooot < 1339173690 985932 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu NICK :sebbu < 1339173906 881325 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-8-213.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1339175218 873519 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :After a reality bomb goes off at the first ever ShatnerCon, all of the characters ever played by William Shatner are suddenly sucked into our world. Their mission: hunt down and destroy the real William Shatner. Featuring: Captain Kirk, TJ Hooker, Denny Crane, Priceline Shatner, Cartoon Kirk, Rescue 9-1-1 Shatner, singer Shatner, and many more. No costumed con-goer will be spared in their wave of destruction, no red shirt will make it < 1339175219 70509 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : out alive, and not even the Klingons will be able to stand up to a deranged Captain Kirk with a light saber. But these Shatner- clones are about to learn a hard lesson . . . that the real William Shatner doesn't take crap from anybody. Not even himself. < 1339176447 158332 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-159-253.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1339176449 850894 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-139-118.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1339179956 553643 :calamari!~calamari@ip72-211-147-156.tc.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1339180359 791671 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, is that a real movie? < 1339180364 501814 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Book. < 1339180368 540342 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1339180374 203723 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should be a film! < 1339180376 326088 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :still pretty amazing idea < 1339180378 159167 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would go see that film. < 1339180383 316359 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But only if Shatner played all the Shatners. < 1339180388 737074 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah definitely < 1339180407 14829 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cartoon Kirk < 1339180407 908998 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? < 1339180425 302198 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I'm not sure what that refers to < 1339180430 933316 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :What. < 1339180436 713912 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is in the list < 1339180439 69944 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :that you quoted < 1339180447 220189 :FireFly!~firefly@firefly.xen.prgmr.com QUIT :Changing host < 1339180447 379714 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly JOIN :#esoteric < 1339180448 255807 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :TAS? < 1339180460 671055 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh the animated stuff < 1339180463 343525 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, makes sense < 1339180494 44941 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1339180514 255496 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah he couldn't play that himself I guess :P < 1339180530 462958 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :the voice acting I guess < 1339180838 43498 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@178235033144.elblag.vectranet.pl QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1339181279 383320 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1339181294 885854 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there an irc channel where people know algorithms really well and are helpful and talkative < 1339181386 324088 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you tried #esoteric? < 1339181406 428691 :aloril!~aloril@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe7ef900-153.dhcp.inet.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1339181419 818105 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :one out of three ain't bad < 1339181436 968623 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-174-95.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1339181509 143623 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah #esoteric sucks at that < 1339181527 158568 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: is your scoring done yet < 1339181538 100358 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is why i want to talk to algorithms people < 1339181563 132999 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suspect that i could get away without using the sledgehammer of linpack < 1339181579 507294 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh < 1339181580 995664 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :no reason not to < 1339181581 480711 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :if i had someone competent at bayesian methods to talk to < 1339181587 69856 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-174-95.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello! < 1339181587 862475 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes there is < 1339181589 835599 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :akaa speed < 1339181593 498478 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh < 1339181597 72916 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i'm sure linpack will be super slow < 1339181618 536541 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :finding all the eigenvales when i only need one eigenvector will be slow < 1339181694 224075 :kappabot!kappabot@unaffiliated/shachaf JOIN :#esoteric < 1339181702 740179 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@admin + elliott < 1339181704 420884 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@admin - elliott < 1339181739 724117 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-174-95.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`welcome kappabot < 1339181742 954554 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :kappabot: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) < 1339181771 508017 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi shachaf < 1339181771 709997 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`WELCOME KAPPABOT < 1339181775 195240 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :KAPPABOT: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.) < 1339181782 98764 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :can i be admin shachaf? < 1339181805 865319 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@admin - quintopia < 1339181811 556819 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :@quit < 1339181811 748823 :kappabot!kappabot@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not enough privileges < 1339181814 695627 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1339181818 585584 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Story of my life. < 1339181823 888912 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-174-95.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 1 + 1 < 1339181824 865626 :kappabot!kappabot@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric : 2 < 1339181826 705344 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :@help < 1339181826 903669 :kappabot!kappabot@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :help . Ask for help for . Try 'list' for all commands < 1339181832 277227 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :@list < 1339181832 468638 :kappabot!kappabot@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/COMMANDS < 1339181834 704966 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :@print-notice < 1339181834 892426 :kappabot!kappabot@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not enough privileges < 1339181835 320610 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :@print-notices < 1339181835 544043 :kappabot!kappabot@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not enough privileges < 1339181838 810985 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Awww, c'mon. < 1339181840 9523 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Make me admin. < 1339181858 23918 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: No! You might run code on my server. < 1339181864 794628 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I already know your password! < 1339181866 430285 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sort of. < 1339181874 376146 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Today I told elliott my password. < 1339181884 523015 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this a ruby bot < 1339181907 63808 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :What. < 1339181917 36344 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote tell < 1339181919 358044 :ais523!~ais523@cpc6-king9-2-0-cust765.perr.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1339181919 877081 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :46) Gregor is often a scandalous imposter. It's all the hats, I tell you. \ 180) fizzie: I can never tell with OpenBSD! everything looks like an error anyway \ 253) oerjan: Tell us what (a(b{c}d)*2e)%2 expands to <-- ababcdbcdedbabcdbcdede, i think oerjan: What - the - fuck \ 313) A priori one cannot say that post hoc ergo propter hoc the diminishing < 1339181922 596479 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-221-74.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1339181931 377701 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote @tell < 1339181932 655906 :ais523!~ais523@cpc6-king9-2-0-cust765.perr.cable.virginmedia.com QUIT :Changing host < 1339181932 815706 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1339181934 5073 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi, monqy < 1339181934 828320 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :550) monqy: help how do I use lambdabot to send messages to people. [...around half an hour later...] @messages quicksilver said 1y 2m 18d 19h 54m 29s ago: you use @tell < 1339181963 660069 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-221-74.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net QUIT :Client Quit < 1339181969 318243 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye, monqy < 1339181982 824102 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-221-74.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1339181985 156879 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi, monqy < 1339182024 96973 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-221-74.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know how when your sasl auth times out and you just don't feel like manually identifying < 1339182035 371517 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1339182038 939030 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-221-74.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1339182051 36409 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i identify manually with this client because it fails to do it automatically for some reason < 1339182064 355120 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :my main client just uses a server password < 1339182067 178706 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"in the clear" < 1339182096 820749 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: is sasl good < 1339182103 897116 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: "is your irc password the same as your other passwords" < 1339182114 22425 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe < 1339182124 579094 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: did you know lambdabot is down :( < 1339182142 153989 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :is you irc password the same as shaachaf's password? < 1339182155 887559 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1339182188 880829 :aloril!~aloril@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe7ef900-153.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1339182302 113349 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1339182705 954991 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: I liked your Hell stairdancing. < 1339182716 36770 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I wasn't going to bother watching it but then I saw the Pandoora announcements in the log.) < 1339182729 441289 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :my irc pasword: < 1339182735 139964 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :eli0t < 1339182753 6661 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-221-74.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: which one < 1339182756 641406 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can tell it's secure because it has a digit in it. < 1339182760 550097 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: Which... one? < 1339182767 898307 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Digits are harder to remember than letters, so you know they're more secure. < 1339182785 554415 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-221-74.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hell is a stairdance party and ive been there multiple times in light < 1339182795 86695 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: The one you did earlier. < 1339182799 261363 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Today. < 1339182800 974880 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-221-74.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: also did you see the part where i got banished and quit < 1339182813 578398 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :By "quit", do you mean "converted to Lugonu"? < 1339182821 501385 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I... was present when you got banished and quit. < 1339182823 260937 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-221-74.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the lugonu altar was right next to where I got banished < 1339182829 431871 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I saw that. < 1339182830 28033 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-221-74.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had no choice < 1339182843 325700 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't understand what you mean by quit, though. < 1339182847 916794 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was an earlier game I saw live, wasn't it? < 1339182849 944136 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-221-74.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the joke is that i didnt < 1339182855 48129 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1339182857 27851 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm laughing. < 1339182864 350780 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :16:11 @ask monqy WOW HOW DID YOU FIND A LUGONU ALTAR THAT QUICKLY < 1339182864 510676 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :16:11 Error(401): lambdabot No such nick/channel < 1339182865 532190 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: also the fact that there over 60 million passwords using 5 alphanumeric characters! guessing it by brute force could take almost an hour! < 1339182883 584458 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: I'm disappointed you did non-orb-run Hive. < 1339182888 684353 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bet orb run Hive would be exciting. < 1339182968 573055 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-221-74.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :if i got to hive on orb run i wouldnt do it < 1339183108 138639 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: Another brogue release came out! < 1339183277 766911 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-221-74.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :another? < 1339183306 288429 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: Yes. < 1339183311 694852 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was a... slight bug: http://i.imgur.com/Xw7eo.png < 1339183352 431195 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-221-74.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :is anything else in the release < 1339183388 42744 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :More bugfixes. < 1339183397 726078 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The ally damage doubled instead of added, or something. < 1339183419 74273 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :very powerful ally that < 1339183957 371693 :TeruFSX!~TeruFSX@97-127-209-31.dlth.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1339185049 251942 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-174-95.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1339186332 147431 :MoALTz!~no@host-92-8-235-225.as43234.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1339186633 287033 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: Why is it so early? < 1339186834 467423 :TeruFSX!~TeruFSX@97-127-209-31.dlth.qwest.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1339187223 458080 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders if there's any good reason for Pidgin to be using XML
< 1339187268 241682 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: whuut??! < 1339187311 949431 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :h There was a... slight bug: http://i.imgur.com/Xw7eo.png <-- interesting looking game < 1339187316 464717 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/^h// < 1339187324 104703 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Golf your regexps. :-( < 1339187332 55619 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf, why? < 1339187346 839570 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Golf=the future. < 1339187351 511499 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Wait, is that your roguelike? < 1339187352 530850 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf, when used on IRC, clarity is way more important < 1339187355 96692 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: It's brogue. It's pretty. It's fun. Play it! < 1339187357 726798 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: No. If only! < 1339187360 341708 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf, no the future is just more capable hardware < 1339187361 741352 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's brogue. < 1339187387 73480 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: But thank you for the implicit compliment in assuming I could produce something like that. < 1339187391 481293 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't find it by googling, it is apparently an Irish word though < 1339187404 855885 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, refers to an Irish accent even < 1339187423 742448 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I meant that your "roguelike" was a static textmap with a quarter of a map and some coloured text. < 1339187430 190868 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah there we go < 1339187432 995088 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Hint: Add "game" to query. < 1339187442 100862 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"this advice brought to you by: the letter monqy" < 1339187445 303216 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The system operator seems to not be on X-BIT anymore < 1339187445 558476 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf, that is what I did < 1339187462 562560 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: https://sites.google.com/site/broguegame/ < 1339187465 670277 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1339187474 357542 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I found it already :O < 1339187475 624269 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P* < 1339187477 627834 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::O < 1339187486 38261 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1339187491 101837 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell monqy @tell shachaf to look up brogue < 1339187491 314325 :kappabot!kappabot@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1339187492 366126 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm typing at an awkward angle here < 1339187500 508146 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :blame that for my typos < 1339187695 372962 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1339187996 371620 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 JOIN :#esoteric < 1339188536 745855 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1339188629 467305 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`joustprog quintopia_zoom < 1339188632 190126 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: joustprog: not found < 1339188633 190961 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`jousturl quintopia_zoom < 1339188635 996509 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/quintopia_zoom.bfjoust < 1339188665 525479 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like how ais523 just makes up program names. < 1339188669 642785 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`greet ais523 < 1339188672 256152 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: greet: not found < 1339188678 174420 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bfjoust < 1339188678 610891 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​Use: !bfjoust . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/ < 1339188683 468398 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Will you play brogue? < 1339188687 560629 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :EgoBot: you mean HackEgo commands? < 1339188688 745859 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ais523 < 1339188691 770994 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi quintopia < 1339188696 753486 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo '#!/bin'sh' >bin/joustreport < 1339188698 362491 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoops < 1339188699 507938 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file < 1339188702 207052 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo '#!/bin/sh' >bin/joustreport < 1339188705 2217 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1339188706 678063 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to figure out if it's worth improving shudderlock, and I'm not convinced it is < 1339188708 661697 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Remind me ot play brogue later. < 1339188713 588330 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo "echo 'http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report.txt'" >>bin/joustreport < 1339188716 294868 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1339188716 454238 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run chmod +x bin/joustreport < 1339188717 735014 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I will. < 1339188719 71035 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1339188720 127984 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`joustreport < 1339188721 380403 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the strategy might beat death_to_defence by defending < 1339188723 16890 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/joustreport: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/joustreport: cannot execute: Permission denied < 1339188725 770953 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't think it's /viable/ < 1339188727 230884 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`joustreport < 1339188728 788248 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you wouldn't happen to know a good "idiot's guide to lapack" would you? < 1339188730 693270 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report.txt < 1339188731 618692 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :good < 1339188731 876463 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: no < 1339188825 764471 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the complete idiots guide to insults < 1339188834 252926 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*'s < 1339188863 877335 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you wouldnt happen to know a good regular-lock-on-flag style defense strategy that works for 2-cycle clears on both polarities without requiring much synchronization would you? all i can think is "use the smallest adjustments to flag possible with shortest clear time possible and risk running out of time" < 1339188924 289637 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :crash testing for dummies < 1339188938 157571 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: hmm; (+)*256(.)*256 is reasonably viable if you can hit the right half of the opposing program's clear loop < 1339188945 329401 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :works better on one polarity than the other, but can work on either < 1339188953 428200 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you put your full-tape clear in the (.)*256) < 1339188991 999268 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shudderlock uses (+)*64(-)*64(+)*64(-)*64(+)*64(.)*64 in order to defeat death_to_defence, but it seems a bit finicky about the details < 1339189007 209497 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that pattern doesn't work on the flag, but only next to the flag < 1339189020 80801 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(has occasional zero-for-two-cycle moments) < 1339189026 61477 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it fails if you are in the (+)*256 part while opponent is doing [-] and the flag starts at wrong value < 1339189032 295587 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: indeed < 1339189051 821689 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no generic lock algorithm that works on everything with no synchronization, or I'd have used it already :) < 1339189071 205091 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you start the (+)*256 while your flag is positive, though, it's reasonably safe < 1339189093 152754 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you start it before the opponent gets there...it won't be positive :P < 1339189101 51317 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1339189111 32789 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think you can reliably lock with no synchronization at all < 1339189111 192814 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1339189157 94668 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if you do (.++)*192 instead? would that give you a little more leeway for the opponent arriving late? < 1339189163 996168 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least for the first lock pass? < 1339189238 583973 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: usurped? < 1339189253 827100 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: yep < 1339189265 14619 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://community.haskell.org/~simonmar/async-stm/Control-Concurrent-Async.html < 1339189265 196014 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :explain plz < 1339189279 286490 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :async + wait + waitThrow ~ spawn < 1339189282 932840 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1339189288 899295 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are already like 5000 of these libraries on Hackage < 1339189292 464773 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know! < 1339189296 75532 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But this is the 5001th. < 1339189300 224714 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Therefore you are usurped. < 1339189308 471296 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And also this is going into the base package. < 1339189314 792076 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :So: totally usurped. < 1339189321 330176 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :'spawn' is different because there's no new type for "asynchronous actions" / "threads" / whatever < 1339189334 116575 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yeah it's IO a -> IO (IO a) not IO a -> IO (Async a) < 1339189339 607003 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fair enough. (But the new type doesn't really matter that much, since you could make spawn use a newtype and it'd be ~the same.) < 1339189344 419646 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously the latter gives you a lot more functionality < 1339189349 537000 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the former is more convenient < 1339189355 730966 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo <- spawn abc < 1339189357 767832 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :bar <- wait abc < 1339189366 759848 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it's exactly a "wait " more convenient, I guess :) < 1339189366 919544 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and pleases me better as a fusion of imperative and functional programming < 1339189371 790836 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fair enough. < 1339189378 265188 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tend to prefer using a newtype for things like that for clarity. < 1339189387 386548 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: well it's also the difference between mapM wait and sequence < 1339189403 682550 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also fair enough. < 1339189406 612832 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Things like IO (IO a) then you can use join < 1339189407 533146 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway this is not a big difference < 1339189426 105892 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :race :: IO a -> IO b -> IO (Either a b) < 1339189469 409284 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@admin + elliott < 1339189470 113569 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@admin - elliott < 1339189503 378996 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: And, what would you mean by that race? < 1339189517 72760 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Exactly what Marlow means. < 1339189591 45335 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: race m n = do { var <- newEmptyMVar; rec { threadA <- forkIO ((m >>= putMVar var) >> killThread threadB); threadB <- forkIO ((n >>= putMVar var) >> killThread threadA) }; takeMVar var } < 1339189593 276168 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(More or less.) < 1339189623 691 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: You forgot Left and Right. < 1339189638 814733 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :By zzo38 I mean elliott. < 1339189652 957189 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Damn, how did you discover my sockpuppet? < 1339189677 453777 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: It is because you threw all of your socks on the floor, everyone can find them < 1339189689 826285 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Help. < 1339189694 279018 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah! a talking sockpuppet! < 1339189694 521881 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have been foiled. < 1339189728 149950 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1339189963 279341 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I fail to understand what rec means there? < 1339189997 336724 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :DoRec extension < 1339190006 813786 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :See the documentation for the DoRec extension. < 1339190014 581419 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1339190045 815504 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :How would it be written without using do and rec? < 1339190057 323935 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :using mfix < 1339190191 548432 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :mfix (\(threadA, threadB) -> liftM2 (,) (forkIO ((m >>= putMVar var) >> killThread threadB) (forkIO ((n >>= putMVar var) >> killThread threadA)), i think < 1339190199 765243 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Using mfix in a far more ugly manner than I can be bothered with. < 1339190281 707510 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do not even understand mfix well either < 1339190337 366057 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Just read the rec as a mutually recursive binding there < 1339190347 501933 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except in IO. < 1339190370 915880 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1339190401 65628 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But what does a mutually recursive binding even means in IO? < 1339190510 114817 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: it means mostly that mutation is used under the hood to change the bindings from errors to the final value when the IO action completes < 1339190583 151243 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means that the IO actions should use the bindings only lazily < 1339190596 702696 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, you could instead create two MVars to hold the thread ID of each. < 1339190604 783500 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: (Not errors, are they?) < 1339190609 76178 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I assumed it'd just block, like takeMVar.) < 1339190617 947448 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: i'm not sure. hm i guess. < 1339190618 107298 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(In fact, I suspect it looks like this:) < 1339190641 578663 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(mfix m = do { v <- newEmptyMVar; x <- m (takeMVar v); putMVar v x; return x }) < 1339190651 792655 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er. < 1339190660 429622 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except not quite, because it has to be takeMVar v >>= m and that wouldn't work. < 1339190669 232629 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let me check. < 1339190682 127617 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :instance MonadFix IO where < 1339190682 287670 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : mfix = fixIO < 1339190683 861355 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Come on, GHC. < 1339190703 16579 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: You look it up. :p < 1339190705 68083 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :@src fixIO < 1339190705 257177 :kappabot!kappabot@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Source not found. This mission is too important for me to allow you to jeopardize it. < 1339190708 709904 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Come on. < 1339190729 477501 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I just downloaded the database, maan! < 1339190732 269175 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/libraries/base-4.5.0.0/src/System-IO.html#fixIO < 1339190739 404400 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty close < 1339190746 301940 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, I thought unsafeInterleaveIO might be involved. < 1339190750 562580 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's safe there < 1339190752 938594 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*there. < 1339190826 756767 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :lots of note about how this probably isn't always safe < 1339190846 481367 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :What else is new :P < 1339190974 781233 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:28 class Monad m where box :: a -> m a; unbox :: m a -> a < 1339190987 196438 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:24 The first monadic law is that a monad is a wrapper around another type. In Haskell, one has the IO String type, which is returned from functions that read from files, console input, or system calls – IO is a monad that wraps the String data type. jQuery obviously satisfies this condition, as it wraps DOM nodes retrieved through given queries. < 1339190996 968718 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :That isn't a monad < 1339190998 52406 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:24 The second monadic law is just as simple: all monads must have a function to wrap themselves around other data types. jQuery clearly has ways to apply itself to DOM nodes – you use the querying facilities to traverse the DOM, and if you’re feeling especially saucy, you can use pass the results of document.getElementsByTagName and its siblings to the jQuery object. Haskell refers to this as a type constructor – a < 1339190998 211907 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :function that takes some data an < 1339191011 796720 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was quoting someone else there! < 1339191020 788964 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, on the other hand, typed that thing in himself. < 1339191030 380129 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That particular line has never been typed before by anyone. < 1339191039 63988 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was channelling whoever wrote this other blog post. < 1339191059 385468 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :The third monadic law says that everyone gets monads wrong. < 1339191171 293187 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it ought to be: class Functor m => Monad m where { return :: x -> m x; join :: m (m x) -> m x; }; well, not exactly; it should be done by making specificness of a monad generally in another category, and then add another instance that makes all monads to be also applicative in the categories where that is the case < 1339191275 775431 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: You forgot unbox. < 1339191280 607692 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And understand < 1339191295 370213 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I forgot it on purpose because it is not a comonad < 1339191459 271889 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :type MonadC (c :: z -> z -> *) (m :: z -> z) :: & = (Category c, EndofunctorC c m, MonadLawsC c m, method return :: c x (m x), method join :: c (m (m x)) (m x)); < 1339191477 156533 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :type Monad = MonadC (->); < 1339191481 706249 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :MonadFactorySingleton < 1339191549 50045 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: was that eventful < 1339191553 168357 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i missed it < 1339191555 888994 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If (->) of kind (* -> * -> *) then Monad of kind ((* -> *) -> &) due to these definitions. < 1339191571 4147 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric ::k (->) < 1339191572 375160 :kappabot!kappabot@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :?? -> ? -> * < 1339191580 681857 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1339191585 7862 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@kind Monad < 1339191586 285451 :kappabot!kappabot@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric : Class `Monad' used as a type < 1339191586 450111 :kappabot!kappabot@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric : In the type `Monad' < 1339191587 615763 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :HLEP < 1339191596 700975 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: geryon, I mean < 1339191600 489751 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :In GHC, (->) is of kind (?? -> ? -> *) and Monad does not have a kind. < 1339191617 483230 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The code I posted above is meant for Ibtlfmm rather than Haskell since it won't work in Haskell < 1339191626 347218 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Wrong. < 1339191629 540431 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Monad has kind * -> Constraint in GHC. < 1339191638 83408 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(With the appropriate extensions.) < 1339191638 806595 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Which part is wrong? < 1339191643 771898 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Monad not having a kind. < 1339191651 275069 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1339191654 393009 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Shouldn't it be: (* -> *) -> Constraint < 1339191655 848189 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: (* -> *) -> Constraint, surely < 1339191669 802425 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er. < 1339191670 445407 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1339191679 653215 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :* -> Constraint -> (Constraint,Constraint) -> * < 1339191719 382080 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: What would the (Constraint,Constraint) kind mean? < 1339191733 652768 :nortti!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :#quit < 1339191733 822297 :oonbotti!~oonbotti@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi QUIT :Quit: oonbotti < 1339191758 156631 :oonbotti!~oonbotti@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1339191785 838566 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :At first I was using "kind" for data kinds, but perhaps "kind" should mean kind synonyms and "data kind" for data kinds, then you can write: kind Constraint = &; if you want to do so. < 1339191816 793592 :oonbotti!~oonbotti@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay. this time I really managed to remove all that debug junk < 1339191844 641745 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8 < 1339191949 469579 :nortti!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oonbotti: is eliza still working? < 1339191949 629384 :oonbotti!~oonbotti@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please consider whether you can answer your own question. < 1339191991 144560 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oonbotti: I often dream of gnomes. < 1339191991 342148 :oonbotti!~oonbotti@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :How does that make you feel? < 1339192004 456427 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oonbotti: Hungry. < 1339192004 615405 :oonbotti!~oonbotti@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you feel when you say that? < 1339192010 914808 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oonbotti: Hungry. < 1339192011 74492 :oonbotti!~oonbotti@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you feel when you say that? < 1339192015 135975 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oonbotti: Hungry. < 1339192015 295624 :oonbotti!~oonbotti@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's change focus a bit... Tell me about your family. < 1339192018 768158 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oonbotti: Hungry. < 1339192018 926987 :oonbotti!~oonbotti@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see. < 1339192022 524318 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm glad. < 1339192253 265758 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then give the name for other kind too: kind Natural = +; kind Module = @; < 1339192344 913298 :oonbotti!~oonbotti@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi QUIT :Quit: oonbotti < 1339192427 968397 :oonbotti!~oonbotti@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1339192543 709633 :nortti!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oonbotti: no errors made by cleanup? < 1339192544 69135 :oonbotti!~oonbotti@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti: Please consider whether you can answer your own question. < 1339192626 266373 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :bit uppity, that one < 1339192647 971651 :Patashu!~Patashu@c27-253-127-153.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1339192666 354817 :derdon!~derdon@pD9E1D289.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1339192715 28151 :nortti!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oonbotti: I can't answer that before I have seen your eliza program working < 1339192715 244761 :oonbotti!~oonbotti@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti: How do you know you can't answer that before you have seen my eliza program working? < 1339192805 307733 :nortti!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oonbotti: because python interpreter doesn't detect logical errors < 1339192805 482500 :oonbotti!~oonbotti@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti: What other reasons come to mind? < 1339192821 565260 :nortti!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oonbotti: well that is the only one < 1339192821 925272 :oonbotti!~oonbotti@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti: Please tell me more. < 1339192886 409142 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :python interp doesn't even detect illogical erros < 1339192889 290769 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*errors < 1339192917 956762 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders if eliza was the first wrapped shrink software
< 1339192958 323792 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: :( < 1339192966 953408 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was a surprisingly good pun, for oerjan < 1339192970 488737 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :he normally makes bad ones < 1339192988 767562 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay :( < 1339193007 55132 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I'm having a bit of cognitive dissonance trying to read that last line < 1339193014 238810 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't say < 1339193043 596207 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`pastlog yay :\( < 1339193069 716430 :nortti!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric ::\( is kinda weird emoticon < 1339193076 54034 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1339193092 988757 :nortti!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :`pastlogs yay :( < 1339193095 413295 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pastlogs: not found < 1339193105 282034 :nortti!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :`pastlog yay :( < 1339193108 808102 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :grep: missing ) < 1339193124 136552 :nortti!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. so it has regexps < 1339193147 938382 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course. we are not barbarians here. < 1339193252 102253 :Patashu!~Patashu@c27-253-127-153.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Disconnected by services < 1339193252 629326 :PatashuXantheres!~Patashu@c27-253-127-153.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1339193589 204245 :PatashuXantheres!~Patashu@c27-253-127-153.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au NICK :Patashu < 1339193793 732573 :nortti_!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1339194410 622226 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1339194786 579356 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you make any Pokemon Card puzzle? < 1339195002 11837 :glogbackup!~glogbacku@64.31.59.246 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1339195002 264915 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :*.net *.split < 1339195002 529398 :Nisstyre!~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre QUIT :*.net *.split < 1339195003 390501 :ssue!u5338@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-titgbmpebjttsybl QUIT :*.net *.split < 1339195392 979407 :kappabot!kappabot@unaffiliated/shachaf QUIT :Quit: requested < 1339195404 491719 :ssue!u5338@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fcmwppifimbiegrv JOIN :#esoteric < 1339195428 985018 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`welcome ssue < 1339195431 861001 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :ssue: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) < 1339195504 216206 :Nisstyre!~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre JOIN :#esoteric < 1339195580 720416 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1339195616 354665 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, he doesn't look new: * ssue has quit (*.net *.split) < 1339195628 104549 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tough! < 1339195630 487497 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, not that new at least < 1339195759 769868 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :god damn, ~/Images on my laptop is 40 GB < 1339195764 830683 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :how did that happen < 1339195774 399154 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is supposed to be like that on the desktop < 1339195783 437365 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that explains where the disk space went at least < 1339195789 415787 :nortti_!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? that is larger than my HD < 1339195826 468469 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti_, I have a 250 GB in my laptop, and like 4 TB (but RAID 1 and dual booting, so 1 TB to linux and 1 TB to windows) in my desktop < 1339195841 39700 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti_, anyway how is 40 GB images strange? < 1339195846 641637 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :also: what sort of disk do you have < 1339195855 252849 :nortti_!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :30GB < 1339195859 314358 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :how old? < 1339195877 294828 :nortti_!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't remember < 1339195883 579918 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :really old I guess < 1339195908 907602 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti_, my camera takes 14 MB RAW images. And I convert that into TIFF with 16 bits per channel (I do HDR photo, and panorama photo) < 1339195926 328497 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :a typical panorama project will end up at around 2 GB or so < 1339195930 990009 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :more if it is HDR as well < 1339195942 514739 :nortti_!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. that explain it < 1339195944 966235 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(while non-panorama HDR is usually around 1 GB) < 1339195968 878257 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti_, so yeah I'm just wondering why it is on my /laptop/ < 1339195972 489589 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than my desktop < 1339195993 500586 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti_, anyway 30 GB HDD sounds utterly painful < 1339196045 287122 :nortti_!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: year ago I had 10GB HD. It is relative < 1339196056 271718 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti_, you know, my steam directory alone on windows is larger than your HDD XD < 1339196072 240557 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti_, what you can buy a new 30 GB HDD? < 1339196074 959457 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :how?! < 1339196075 248402 :tswett!~tswett@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Last-first search. < 1339196076 130444 :tswett!~tswett@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go. < 1339196083 57246 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :LFS < 1339196085 277187 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett, last-first? < 1339196102 448199 :tswett!~tswett@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Last-first search. LFS. < 1339196105 960483 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is only well defined for one search result? < 1339196107 718724 :nortti_!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: no. it was on different computer < 1339196111 380196 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the last item is also the first one < 1339196117 939183 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :leet file system < 1339196123 665723 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti_, you can buy a new computer with a 30 GB HDD!? < 1339196126 435533 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh? < 1339196127 937035 :tswett!~tswett@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lossy file system. < 1339196139 204666 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: all of them? :P < 1339196143 289617 :nortti_!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I buy my computers used < 1339196145 933436 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1339196153 955943 :tswett!~tswett@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stores files using Bloom filters. You can never be sure if the file you're looking for exists or not. < 1339196172 836437 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1339196173 285265 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti_, unless it is a laptop I just buy components and assemble the computer myself < 1339196181 76655 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti_, I really like my current desktop. 16 GB RAM < 1339196194 34251 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti_, hey, that is more RAM than your old computer had disk space :P < 1339196206 805014 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the mobo supports 32 GB RAM. So I could upgrade if I wanted < 1339196217 680335 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :to get more than your current disk < 1339196239 853697 :david_werecat!~david_wer@24-52-224-101.cable.teksavvy.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1339196242 657261 :nortti_!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: you have 256 times as much ram as I do < 1339196265 478166 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti_, you have 64 MB RAM!? < 1339196267 314485 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :dude < 1339196271 395412 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :wth < 1339196296 58060 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you live in Finland according to /whois < 1339196296 217238 :nortti_!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: yes. does that shock you? < 1339196299 486568 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :this makes no sense < 1339196320 797713 :nortti_!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: what about me living in finland? < 1339196328 252260 :tswett!~tswett@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: hi < 1339196332 986742 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti_, it is not a third world country! < 1339196345 120971 :calamari!~calamari@ip72-211-147-156.tc.ph.cox.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1339196349 451612 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti_, 64 MB RAM is as much as my first computer had (a first model iBook) < 1339196357 673850 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was about 10 years ago < 1339196362 783295 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: hi < 1339196364 480398 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :11 actually < 1339196370 953850 :tswett!~tswett@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel like I should have more RAM than I do. < 1339196375 164896 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have 4 rams < 1339196376 806329 :tswett!~tswett@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that's what money for. < 1339196382 592410 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti_, having 64 MB RAM makes no sense. You can't do anything useful with it < 1339196388 96011 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett, how much do you have then? < 1339196404 899662 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1339196415 504497 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would have more rams but i learnt the hard way that you can't trust elliott as far as you can throw him :( < 1339196421 31519 :nortti_!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: my computer is 12 years old. And I can do a lot with it. < 1339196426 257389 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: how far can you throw me < 1339196432 800879 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not very far < 1339196437 238543 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm putting both nortti_ and Vorpal on ignore until they stop talking about computer specs < 1339196443 707431 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: i think that has actually been done. use a bloom filter to avoid hitting distant memory (RAM, disk). i guess you're just suggesting throwing out the actual storage part < 1339196444 181083 :tswett!~tswett@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: 4 GiB. < 1339196453 181826 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm terrible at throwing things < 1339196453 342019 :nortti_!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: why? < 1339196458 660990 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: :'( < 1339196464 135532 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but how will i ever get to alaska now < 1339196464 465357 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw I think the first component I will upgrade in this computer apart from replacing breaking HDDs (it is slightly less than a year old, so maybe in 2-3 years I will upgrade this) will be the GPU < 1339196466 399837 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti_: You should get a newer computer! < 1339196476 31629 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i once threw like 20 pens at someone from a metre behind him < 1339196477 934290 :nortti_!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: why? < 1339196480 39951 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: you will not avoid the ignores < 1339196480 456125 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :all but one missed < 1339196496 594611 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just not happy with 55 FPS in Skyrim on Ultra (only at some specific places). I want a full 60 FPS! < 1339196498 231042 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Am I on /ignore now :=_( < 1339196505 884855 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: not yet!!! < 1339196514 230629 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"ok>" < 1339196538 911567 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : shachaf: you will not avoid the ignores <-- what did he do? < 1339196543 593561 :nortti_!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I have 700MHz Pentium III < 1339196546 469886 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett, that is enough for some workloads < 1339196564 349183 :tswett!~tswett@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is enough for literally everything I have ever done using this computer. < 1339196566 341280 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@msg #esoteric nortti_: In order to type-check Agda programs! < 1339196566 530629 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not enough privileges < 1339196567 739496 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti_, argh this is painful. My oldest PC is more powerful than your computer (smaller HDD though) < 1339196571 558729 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-( < 1339196591 707647 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@msg #esoteric nortti_: In order to type-check Agda programs! < 1339196591 911169 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not enough privileges < 1339196602 194095 :nortti_!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: why is it painful? < 1339196603 436316 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@msg #esoteric nortti_: In order to type-check Agda programs! < 1339196603 631373 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not enough privileges < 1339196605 416945 :tswett!~tswett@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example, playing Eve Online rather slowly. < 1339196620 763473 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett, well then. I only have 16 GB because I 1) Panorama photo processing is memory intensive and also 2) want to dual boot windows, and that is because 3) I want to play high end games < 1339196634 461004 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise I would probably have gone for 8 GB < 1339196634 656007 :nortti_!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I like to hang here at the low end < 1339196640 141843 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i broke my swap partition ages ago < 1339196640 455954 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti_, why is that? < 1339196641 85556 :tswett!~tswett@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION nods.
< 1339196648 802660 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti_, also that isn't low end. It is below low end < 1339196650 255203 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this was also elliott's fault) < 1339196659 360133 :tswett!~tswett@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who's a good manufacturer of desktop PCs? < 1339196661 916904 :nortti_!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: hardware is cheap < 1339196662 76732 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, how? < 1339196667 978553 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, how can you break swap? < 1339196671 54186 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-159-253.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti_: Low end machines use 2 watts. Yours uses at least 200. < 1339196674 295028 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti_, hm true < 1339196682 826889 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well basically i had torrented skyrim to vax's linux partition < 1339196683 798752 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, and good point < 1339196691 272648 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, vax? < 1339196695 313212 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this computer < 1339196698 976011 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :awesome name < 1339196700 729438 :nortti_!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: my machine is a laptop < 1339196701 812901 :tswett!~tswett@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION Who's a good manufacturer of desktop PCs! You are! Aww, you're the cutest manufacturer of desktop PCs ever! Good manufacturer of desktop PCs! Wuv wuv wuv.
< 1339196702 410518 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :its clever pun, my laptop is called henry < 1339196716 239663 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: god < 1339196718 833707 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, oh I thought it was a reference to VAX computers < 1339196719 935483 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1339196731 119386 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :@admin + shachaf < 1339196732 473459 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :@admin - shachaf < 1339196735 940467 :nortti_!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: define low end < 1339196738 39020 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway elliott claimed that linux couldn't reliably write a 5GB file to ntfs so he had me repurpose the swap partition for transfer < 1339196739 920915 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, which bot? < 1339196746 830611 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-159-253.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti_: Coppermine? < 1339196755 625604 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@admin + shachaf < 1339196755 810644 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not enough privileges < 1339196764 391256 :nortti_!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: yes < 1339196765 180378 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti_, the least powerful thing that you can currently buy new and is still being produced. < 1339196772 229605 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it didn't work, i ended up doing a convoluted http transfer through my home wifi with henry, and i haven't gotten around to reformatting swap < 1339196784 310552 :nortti_!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I'd call that mid end < 1339196785 697769 :tswett!~tswett@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :HP it is. < 1339196787 383672 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@admin - elliott < 1339196789 686811 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@admin + elliott < 1339196791 804606 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :@admin - shachaf < 1339196797 874096 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-159-253.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti_: Your friggin' CPU uses 25 W. < 1339196801 183000 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti_, nah mid end is midway between that and whatever is the high end < 1339196803 155489 :nortti_!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: or high end < 1339196803 533906 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: you don't need to "reformat" swap < 1339196805 898536 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :just add it back < 1339196809 518944 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti_, oh come on < 1339196815 910977 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you said reformat at the time I AM SURE OF IT < 1339196829 351828 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, at max load? < 1339196831 999721 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, (the naming scheme is clever because henry and vax are both brands of hoover) < 1339196835 50811 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-159-253.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti_: You're using "older than low-end and significantly more power-hungry than low-end" stuff. < 1339196836 153337 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, or idle? < 1339196842 57690 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-159-253.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Pretty sure that's max load. < 1339196862 392414 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-159-253.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: It's not before the P4 that you start seeing ridiculous power usage. :) < 1339196882 557828 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-159-253.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where you can fry eggs by placing a frying pan on the heat sink... < 1339196884 744934 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : you said reformat at the time I AM SURE OF IT <-- uh you need to run mkswap to write like a one block header to it < 1339196892 910730 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you overwrote it that is < 1339196905 829833 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, ah < 1339196920 844705 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-159-253.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :P4s go up to... 115W. Shiiit. < 1339196921 550302 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I MUCH prefer it being a reference to VAX computers < 1339196925 129127 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i realised you probably wouldn't get it being an inferior swede and all) < 1339196932 792358 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :dude it was both obviously < 1339196935 860412 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@flush < 1339196936 179332 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not enough privileges < 1339196950 150980 :nortti_!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I think that nothing currently produced cam be called low end < 1339196951 641206 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what does a modern top-end, state of the art Core i7 go up to? < 1339196959 977601 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when i was looking through brands of hoover for a name i found it and was like omg < 1339196964 381180 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@flush < 1339196967 51618 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti_, really? < 1339196971 411555 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"oopse" < 1339196985 450392 :nortti_!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: yes < 1339196993 291587 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, well, I have a Mile vacuum cleaner here < 1339197002 686160 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :German brand I think? < 1339197009 688467 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-159-253.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: The *6 core* i7 does 130W. < 1339197016 649197 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, pretty amazing < 1339197025 224711 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :good to know, if i ever have a computer in sweden and/or germany i will call it that < 1339197041 232320 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I wonder what consumes most in my desktop. I guess it is either the GPU or the HDDs spinning up actually? < 1339197052 89503 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a 4 core Sandy Bridge i7 < 1339197055 882193 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me check which one < 1339197059 445558 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-159-253.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, sorry, I lied, that was the last gen 6 core i7... < 1339197062 129271 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :@admin - shachaf < 1339197072 803825 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-159-253.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, it's still 130 W on the current gen. < 1339197083 259827 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-159-253.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The more typical ones use rather a lot less. < 1339197085 824775 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@flush < 1339197087 760123 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-( < 1339197093 481926 :nortti_!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I have my comfortable lowest machine requirement somewhere between 100MHz Pentium I/40MB RAM and 50MHz 486/16MB RAM < 1339197097 447421 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still have no idea if the restarts from DX:HR are an overheat or power problem or what because apparently making a temperature monitor is the most complicated thing in the world. < 1339197100 908689 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, great job windows... the System tab in Control Panel broke. Somehow. It lists everything as NaN < 1339197102 60248 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-159-253.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the low end they use 17 W max. < 1339197111 775644 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, every number that is < 1339197116 474132 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :like NaN GB RAM < 1339197139 977866 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, mine is 3.4 GHz < 1339197156 71739 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't check which product name though since windows is spacing out here < 1339197158 412943 :tswett!~tswett@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lessee. It looks like the best computer HP can give me would cost $3,383.99. < 1339197166 530224 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett, desktop? < 1339197169 889157 :tswett!~tswett@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1339197177 745140 :tswett!~tswett@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Has three hard drives and two Blu-Ray writers. < 1339197182 318901 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett, protip: it is probably cheaper to built your own equivalent system < 1339197189 658934 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :also who would need two blu-ray writers!? < 1339197192 572512 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :that makes no sense < 1339197198 977499 :tswett!~tswett@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because who knows when you might want to burn two BDs at once. < 1339197249 687481 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett, just converted it to SEK. It is between 2 and 3 times as expensive as my system < 1339197249 982726 :tswett!~tswett@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could buy this. But my parents would disown me. < 1339197251 705557 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :um < 1339197252 820177 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :guys < 1339197255 649362 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well, when it was new) < 1339197260 574925 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can burn blu-rays twice as fast < 1339197264 860390 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, XD < 1339197274 566781 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw I only have a DVD drive < 1339197283 49358 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't really see the need for a blu-ray drive < 1339197294 222167 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :my laptop has a crazy drive though. It can do DVD-RAM < 1339197294 949181 :nortti_!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have single DVD-R, CD-RW drive < 1339197295 660954 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :take that! < 1339197310 414680 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they do seem a bit pointless given the existence of torrents < 1339197315 316978 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, indeed < 1339197318 514624 :tswett!~tswett@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, I actually *can* buy this. < 1339197327 952330 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how the hell does DVD-RAM work < 1339197329 603752 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett, don't though < 1339197342 956664 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, google it. It is a packet writing based media iirc < 1339197354 448280 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, so you can write specific sectors < 1339197374 344177 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, basically it is formatted into sectors iirc, but don't quote me on that < 1339197377 663973 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well this is ridiculously overwrought < 1339197393 924461 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Can be rewritten over 100,000 times for the lowest write speed discs (DVD�RW can be rewritten approx. 1,000 times)." < 1339197411 619133 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Don't buy a premade computer, man. < 1339197413 327733 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'll regret it. < 1339197416 72553 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially a really expensive one. < 1339197451 627238 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal will look down on you for one and he's well without facepunching range < 1339197454 814140 :tswett!~tswett@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will instantly regret any computer purchase I make. < 1339197465 37467 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but you'll regret it more < 1339197465 197043 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, :P < 1339197484 27108 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is pretty much wasted money < 1339197508 776961 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, anyway rest assured I didn't select the laptop based on the DVD-RAM support < 1339197516 275398 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I discovered that support much later < 1339197560 405723 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it is not so strange really, it is a thinkpad. And it supports one PC Card + one ExpressCard as well. Oh and Firewire. Yeah it has some rather uncommon stuff < 1339197562 285744 :nortti_!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I don't regret my computer purchases. They are rarely over 15 euros < 1339197566 223050 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :DisplayPort too < 1339197569 134849 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :no HDMI < 1339197592 551995 :tswett!~tswett@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't bought a computer more expensive than 15 euros in about three years. < 1339197602 994235 :nortti_!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also have thinkpad < 1339197625 995740 :nortti_!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :the tracpoint mouse is awesome < 1339197630 530847 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tend to buy really good computers when I do buy computers. And then use them until they break or are no longer usable for my purposes < 1339197651 447379 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I will probably upgrade my desktop in about 5 years time. No idea for my laptop. I don't do such heavy stuff on it < 1339197663 891959 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti_, indeed. Also matte screens FTW < 1339197675 923643 :nortti_!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vor < 1339197683 757235 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway I wouldn't buy a laptop without a trackpoint. Touchpads are terrible < 1339197687 438380 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti_, "vor"? < 1339197707 582884 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok so less than two weeks before cambridge's "you want to study maths with us? haha fuck you" test i am still unable to reliably integrate ln(ax+b) < 1339197725 297660 :nortti_!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: also how rugged they are < 1339197742 446938 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti_, not much (for the newer lenovo made ones at least) < 1339197747 398531 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(never owned an IBM one) < 1339197773 691940 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I wanted rugged I'd go for Toughbook < 1339197809 213779 :nortti_!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: my T20 was uder one of the feet of cr < 1339197814 814495 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd get a raspberry pi and put it in 13 different boxes < 1339197820 435760 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti_, cr? < 1339197825 805961 :nortti_!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :-r+hain fow few yers < 1339197832 837556 :nortti_!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :*chair < 1339197835 164646 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: do you actually have any evidence that they got less durable when Lenovo took over? < 1339197842 733065 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti_, chain? chair? < 1339197850 925451 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti_, also why would you put it there? < 1339197856 167225 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hear this a lot but it usually sounds like nerd hipsters whining about how the early albums were better < 1339197876 261541 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not happy with some of lenovo's design decisions, but i don't know if the quality has suffered < 1339197877 533349 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, yes. I had to order a replacement part for the palm rest. And the second one got a crack in the same place < 1339197885 164326 :nortti_!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: previous owner. thought it was completely broken < 1339197886 598617 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :not so much that I need to order a new one yet < 1339197886 776710 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice anecdotes < 1339197887 860349 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :but hm < 1339197893 102987 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but did you ever own an IBM thinkpad? < 1339197893 464236 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, well it is my personal experience < 1339197896 85845 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, you said there you didn't < 1339197898 612708 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you have no comparison < 1339197905 906131 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have any statistics on it < 1339197934 171267 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, and I know people with IBM thinkpads. And I used them (though never owned them) and they feel more durable. And I never seen them break like that < 1339197953 332242 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's all pretty dodgy < 1339197961 681409 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they "feel more durale" and you've never seen them break, but you don't own them? < 1339197968 575709 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and obviously you wouldn't see the broken ones < 1339197972 365895 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, It lacks scientific rigour definitely < 1339197994 708466 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, I had one on loan for a few years < 1339198011 821229 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that enough for you? < 1339198017 198045 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dunno, i have this basic contrarian impulse where, if a majority of my peer group believes something, i try to argue against it < 1339198027 379925 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: not really, but I don't think anything would be, so whatever < 1339198035 129055 :nooga!~nooga@ip-46-250-173-30.ip.maverick.com.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1339198046 535289 :nortti_!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: I think you exist < 1339198055 101918 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, well it is just annoying. I never claimed I tested for statistical significant results and so on. So don't argue like if I did that < 1339198057 998550 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can cite one specific thing lenovo made better though < 1339198070 695106 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, oh? < 1339198079 452420 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is that the plug on the end of the power cords has more strain relief now < 1339198084 806496 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and is less liable to break < 1339198086 431897 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm maybe < 1339198093 668523 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the old IBM-designed and the first lenovo-designed ones broke all the time < 1339198127 817419 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, oh yeah forgot that. My power cord for this lenovo one (R500, not sure if it is new or old, it lacks the IBM logo though) broke. Near the power supply end < 1339198130 507323 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i owned an IBM-designed ThinkPad and it had its share of problems < 1339198133 575818 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than at the computer end < 1339198134 117030 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :enough anecdotes to match yours < 1339198143 404500 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :laptops break < 1339198146 836519 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thinkpads aren't magic < 1339198146 997274 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes < 1339198148 642980 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are pretty good < 1339198151 374964 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :inded < 1339198153 397883 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed* < 1339198159 76236 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are better than average though < 1339198161 604131 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1339198167 693563 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hope that continues to be the case < 1339198179 489180 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm upset about lenovo throwing out the thinkpad keyboard layout < 1339198182 207911 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, but thoughbooks are better still if you are really handling it rough < 1339198186 545300 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1339198190 895471 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they're huge and unwieldy < 1339198198 823839 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, though I know someone who managed to drop a toughbook so that the HDD popped out and broke < 1339198226 797304 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :to be fair he works as an ambulance driver and used it in his work. So that is some really tough environment. < 1339198256 141086 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :still pretty unluckly < 1339198260 921771 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :unlucky* < 1339198268 537687 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1339198292 257906 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if lenovo goes to glossy screens only, that's the point at which I will really have to switch < 1339198300 713482 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i used a glossy screen thinkpad for a few months and really disliked it < 1339198308 837908 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, but what is there to switch to!? < 1339198316 423999 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea what is left < 1339198376 218411 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : i dunno, i have this basic contrarian impulse where, if a majority of my peer group believes something, i try to argue against it < 1339198407 565863 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, this laptop monitor is 8:5 btw. Nicer than 16:9 at least < 1339198430 909667 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: apple :( < 1339198436 187030 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, what? < 1339198438 130350 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i really hate the company < 1339198453 480498 :kmc!~keegan@65.96.1.204 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hate the company but their laptops at least seem to be well made < 1339198455 292337 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : i dunno, i have this basic contrarian impulse where, if a majority of my peer group believes something, i try to argue against it <-- err wasn't it kmc who said that? < 1339198476 510061 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, oh yeah apple has some terrible lock in going on < 1339198559 194705 :nortti_!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate apple's iOS devices and poat 2006 macs but I love old macs < 1339198566 709150 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1339198585 909939 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti_, I'm going to get a new phone soon. A Samsung Galaxy S3 < 1339198597 99746 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :the blue variant been delayed though < 1339198602 875031 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise I would have had it already < 1339198611 462097 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(some production issues from what I heard) < 1339198629 38092 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and I don't want a white phone) < 1339198635 589652 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :my current phone isn't even a smartphone < 1339198648 342309 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :just a really old Nokia with bits of plastic starting to fall off < 1339198651 964196 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(keypad) < 1339198658 974446 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is the best way to do constrast/brightness/gamma by integer arithmetic? < 1339198673 488808 :nortti_!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am going to also get new phone. an old nokia nonsmartphone < 1339198676 675071 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, for what? Image manipulation? < 1339198679 114297 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:34 i dunno, i have this basic contrarian impulse where, if a majority of my peer group believes something, i try to argue against it <-- err wasn't it kmc who said that? < 1339198680 687079 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey oerjan < 1339198683 895463 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti_, why? < 1339198686 665579 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Yes < 1339198708 942012 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti_, at least my current phone can run J2ME and has a simple camera built in. Pretty shitty quality though < 1339198719 581840 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :should upload an image I took recently. Was pretty funny < 1339198724 541256 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although why should it matter if it is for image manipulation? The same thing should work for audio as well < 1339198768 291594 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, what does gamma mean for audio? < 1339198770 658364 :nortti_!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: why not? I find camera+GPRS+J2ME to be all I nees < 1339198775 50634 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :or brightness < 1339198799 634173 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti_, fair enough. Those phones are certainly smaller and have better battery life < 1339198820 208716 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :personally I really need a better phone since I started doing android development < 1339198822 904902 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: The same thing as with pictures; gamma is the value to the power of some number, etc < 1339198830 580444 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be nice to be able to test it at home < 1339198843 450566 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1339198855 475854 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, I guess you could do fixed point calculations? < 1339198861 264753 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :However with signed audio you would need to also decide what it will do with the sign < 1339198874 256475 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in case of gamma) < 1339198877 99648 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, but why not use floats? < 1339198897 870757 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, shouldn't gamma just scale the magnitude? < 1339198949 757878 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I want to use integer arithmetic to avoid it being difference by different computers like how TeX also use integer arithmetic for same purpose < 1339198985 870163 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : hey oerjan <-- wat < 1339198991 557221 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:37 00:34 i dunno, i have this basic contrarian impulse where, if a majority of my peer group believes something, i try to argue against it <-- err wasn't it kmc who said that? < 1339199003 979265 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know that word that starts with a wo < 1339199009 19343 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ends with an osh < 1339199035 100300 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :worbitosh < 1339199049 41370 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, hm? < 1339199060 344990 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1339199060 585487 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: you need to say that word to Vorpal, you see < 1339199158 286761 :Slereah_!~jackal@ANantes-259-1-239-176.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1339199180 627675 :Slereah!~jackal@ANantes-259-1-239-176.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1339199201 283047 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i cannot woosh someone when i'm not sure i guess the meaning correctly myself < 1339199216 326664 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, :P < 1339199337 420425 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: kmc said that earlier. < 1339199341 255962 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :then i quoted it but i replaced kmc with itidus21. < 1339199356 816737 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, right, that makes sense < 1339199388 518320 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only need a table that the value 0 to 255 is mapped to a new value 0 to 255 < 1339199408 473425 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i guessed _that_ much. what i'm not sure of is why it is funny. < 1339199433 774088 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I see the logic of it now, I don't think it is very funny though < 1339199434 575297 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: precalculate? < 1339199458 154722 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: It has to calculate during the program because any input could be specified < 1339199487 575475 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: no i mean, just build the whole table of 0 to 255, and include it in the program < 1339199509 918426 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, why not just do the calculation each step? Is it really that expensive? < 1339199536 892048 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: he wants it to be more portable than floating point is < 1339199544 643132 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, so fixed point < 1339199560 668344 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure that is portable... < 1339199562 789386 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :also unless he is targeting embedded system there is zero reason to avoid floating point in this case < 1339199570 988075 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I know that but it won't work since the input will be the amount of gamma correction or whatever else it is, and this requires to calculate the table for the given amount of gamma < 1339199589 480323 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, uh? How can bitshifts and integer arithmetic NOT be portable? < 1339199599 172698 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :because that is all you need for fixed point < 1339199615 486555 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: oh ok. i misunderstood. < 1339199621 372225 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't want the program to run differently on different computers < 1339199630 879197 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, so redo the table when the user change the input values? < 1339199651 520207 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: yes, but he needs an algorithm for a power routine iiuc < 1339199656 961723 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1339199668 486518 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and not just integer powers < 1339199670 916109 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, are you going to run this on a system that lacks floating point? < 1339199721 65208 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: portable here means "gives the exact same result regardless of the system's floating point rep" < 1339199749 426393 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, any self respecting system uses IEEE floating point these days < 1339199755 769666 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that is irrelevant < 1339199783 501921 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: No. In fact it uses floating point to compress PNG (since it is based on LodePNG), but the rest of the program doesn't make decisions based on that and once decompressed it is the same anyways since it is lossless < 1339199804 675268 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, you will get the same results on ARM, x86 and x86-64, and really those are the only platforms that matter these days unless you are specifically targeting a specific embedded controller < 1339199808 464201 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :While with the gamma tables, it is possible for the program to make decisions since the table is exposed < 1339199814 387516 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is the reality of software development < 1339199840 310762 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, yes and? < 1339199856 559956 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the floating point was broken the compression would not work correctly surely? < 1339199859 820825 :nortti_!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: don't ppc and mips matter? < 1339199870 217227 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1339199896 212979 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti_, these days? not really for mainstream development. And PPC is dead. You might be referring to the Power architecture, which is what replaced PPC < 1339199900 14051 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Wouldn't it be nice if, like, instead of having types, Haskell *only* had typeclasses? And their instances would be *other typeclasses*. < 1339199903 82800 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that is used in some places yes < 1339199906 107705 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: The compression is lossless; if the floating point was partially broken you would probably still get a valid PNG file with the correct picture but it would not be optimal compression, I suppose < 1339199906 528816 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :PS3 for example < 1339199921 868674 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti_, and in some high end clusters < 1339199950 527835 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti_, but mainstream: not really. MIPS might matter slightly more, but it is far less popular than ARM < 1339199957 98869 :nortti_!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: powerpc is dead? freescale still manufactures ppc processors < 1339199966 398310 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti_, really? Who uses them? < 1339199982 98487 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti_, I know the ISA is used in the Power core of the Cell CPU (as used in PS3) < 1339199982 444478 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :This program in TeXnicard it is not only for personal microcomputers, it is for companies who print cards as well (although they won't necessarily use it, it is intended to be available for them)