00:02:16 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 00:22:39 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 00:22:48 -!- pikhq has joined. 00:26:15 -!- augur has joined. 00:28:19 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:28:31 -!- augur has joined. 00:39:53 -!- MoALTz has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:40:25 -!- MoALTz has joined. 00:40:53 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 00:49:37 -!- azaq23 has joined. 00:57:37 -!- augur has joined. 00:59:44 Hey wait is kmc the kmc who comments on Twenty Sided? 01:00:24 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 01:00:28 i don't know what twenty sided is 01:00:49 I'm taking that as a 'no', then. 01:10:08 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 01:13:03 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 01:26:35 is there a well-known brainfuck derivative which uses goto instead of "structured" control? 01:31:35 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:31:46 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:35:15 -!- luke2 has joined. 01:36:06 hi luke 01:36:33 `welcome luke2 01:36:37 luke2: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 01:36:52 hey quin..thank you 02:01:37 -!- calamari has joined. 02:02:38 I'm assuming everyone already saw google.com but just in case... 02:15:00 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving). 02:29:55 -!- Nisstyre has joined. 02:47:23 kmc: I think "Bub" uses goto 02:58:13 -!- oerjan has joined. 03:00:08 -!- oerjan has set topic: Happy Alan Turing's 100th Birthday | Food is just pals you eat. Here's a spork for ya. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | This is what the bfjoust hill will look like under the new scoring system: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=XEWnVMg8. 03:00:13 -!- luke3 has joined. 03:00:21 -!- luke2 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 03:00:27 -!- oerjan has set topic: Happy Alan Turing's 100th Birthday! | Food is just pals you eat. Here's a spork for ya. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | This is what the bfjoust hill will look like under the new scoring system: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=XEWnVMg8. 03:02:28 The ITMCK sends the .IT to a file rather than stdout because it may need to seek the file that it is writing. It could probably be done without seeking but that would be a bit more complicated to program. 03:04:22 -!- luke3 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 03:04:41 -!- luke3 has joined. 03:05:25 If I could make it do without seeking, then I will change it to send the output to stdout instead. 03:06:54 Status messages (which include warning messages and error messages) will always go to stderr, so it won't interfere, except if you use "itmck -v" in which case it sends the version string to stdout and stops, and doesn't send anything to stderr. 03:19:41 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 03:20:33 -!- tswett has quit (Quit: leaving). 03:31:37 -!- Vorpal has joined. 03:33:00 wow the google logo thing atm. 03:33:24 In honour of Turing 03:33:35 * oerjan wonders if google's TM is the same as he used in Underload 03:34:01 probably has to be 03:34:11 hm? 03:34:44 Vorpal: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload#Binary_counting_Turing_machine 03:35:16 oerjan, try the thing out, it looks like you have to press those buttons to make it run the "right" program? 03:35:28 oh there is more than one? 03:35:30 to configure the rules for the head that is 03:35:47 it starts out as a binary counter 03:35:59 oerjan, well if the tapes ends up matching the string above it goes on to colouring the next letter in the logo it seems? 03:37:04 oh hm 03:38:05 and once you completed the whole "Google" it starts over but runs automatically 03:38:15 you are talking about what happens when you press the green button, i assume 03:38:21 oerjan, yes 03:38:26 what else? 03:38:42 and finally it automatically googles "Allan Turing" 03:38:52 ...as i said, it starts out doing a binary counter even if you don't press anything 03:39:01 oh right, didn't notice that 03:41:01 * oerjan manages to get one letter colored but still has no clue what the actual system for settings is 03:41:13 hm? 03:41:26 you just press the button thingy to make it run the right program? 03:41:30 I found it quite simple 03:41:49 well i managed to get the second 03:42:08 it seems to be a simple finite state machine with some symbols invented for various tests and writes to the tape and what not 03:42:09 i just don't understand how it represents the actual program 03:42:25 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:42:31 uh? It seems trivial to turn it into a finite state machine. 03:42:39 it practically is one 03:42:48 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 03:43:08 oerjan, so basically the thing below the tape is the control mechanism 03:43:14 oh well it seems like there isn't that much choice in what to press 03:43:15 or what is it that you are not clear on? 03:43:19 well yes 03:43:28 it gets a bit more choice towards the end 03:43:38 I guess they thought people were stupid (accurate!) 03:44:44 i suppose it has to be intuitive, given that i seem to make the right choice anyhow :P 03:44:52 heh 03:51:01 oerjan, still not a bad "event logo" I think 03:51:32 indeed. i think i finally understood that it's starting at the left end... 03:51:47 (of fsa diagram) 03:52:02 err that was obvious? 03:52:09 it was a "complete the program puzzle" 03:52:12 obviously 03:53:07 yes, but i somehow thought the brightly colored button was where it started... 03:53:30 oh 03:55:27 i still don't know why that second last one worked... 03:55:39 ("worked" after i tried all options, that is) 03:55:45 run it again? 03:56:08 also I don't remember which one it was. I just traced through the program logically until I found a solution 03:57:35 -!- MDude has changed nick to MDoze. 03:59:14 ah finally i think i got the system at the last one (needed only one try despite four buttons) 04:01:44 oerjan, yeah it was easy 04:01:50 just think logically 04:02:12 these are trivial finite state machines to trace in your head. 04:02:13 * oerjan swats Vorpal -----### 04:02:31 I BET YOU THINK MENSA TESTS AREN'T HIDEOUSLY AMBIGUOUS EITHER 04:02:39 of course they are 04:02:55 whew 04:03:10 I just found these finite state machines trivial after the first one (where I had to figure out what the hell was going on in general) 04:03:28 i guess my problem was i didn't _have_ to find out until the last one :P 04:03:33 hah 04:04:22 oerjan, you could have tried all combos for the last one 04:04:24 not that many 04:04:28 4 buttons iirc? 04:04:53 yes 04:05:07 forgot how many states each had 04:05:15 so yeah 2*2*3*3 or something? 04:05:52 which if I remember the number of conditionals accurately thus yields 36 combinations 04:06:00 * oerjan tried restarting and is wondering if this _is_ the same puzzle as last time 04:06:16 oh maybe they are random 04:06:31 yeah this looks the same to me 04:10:48 hm I'm going to bed I think. 04:10:49 night 04:12:57 * oerjan is pretty sure he's on a different set of puzzles now. maybe using the back button after the "Alan Turing" search works differently. 04:13:20 i mean, this one has 6 buttons. 04:16:01 this one has _no_ options and looks like it may be inspired by the konami code 04:16:08 *no buttons 04:16:41 how come i get the interactive doodle but my friend gets just a simple logo 04:17:00 no javascript or something? 04:17:05 maybe 04:17:11 or wait 04:17:24 these things aren't always rolled out consistently everywhere 04:17:34 well we're on the same internet connection now 04:17:37 but even so, yeah 04:17:45 different language settings? 04:17:56 did you work out what the bit sequences mean? 04:18:17 wait, there was a puzzle to that too? 04:18:24 i didn't pay attention. 04:27:20 * Sgeo looks at Io for some reason 04:40:28 I should learn to try writing code for languages that interest me 04:40:33 Rather than just... doing nothing 04:50:37 better yet, write programs that interest you 04:51:14 do something cool and stop obsessing over what tools you used to do it 04:56:32 What program do you want to write? 05:08:30 -!- pikhq has joined. 05:08:39 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 05:19:39 Sgeo: i chose early on in life that my life would be about computer game software 05:22:25 What computer game? 05:28:22 any 05:33:20 Is your opinion that mathematics is the true reality? 05:35:26 humm 05:35:35 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 05:38:49 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 05:40:24 well, i like to begin by categorizing events into good and bad, to demonstrate that inspite of my imagination bad things of all sorts happen... but also then stepping back and considering myself then as something which categorizes, which is itself a category 05:40:36 its worth noting i don't know what category means in mathematical sense 05:41:40 but i also know that my body will die, perhaps while doing one of these arbitrary categorizations 05:47:29 i find that once you remove a daily routine of going into public each day, it does help you realize things.. it's a bit like the movie terminal 05:48:09 in reality theres no invisible hand to save us if we get trapped by some flaw in societys logic 05:50:17 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Actually there is, it just doesn't work for atheists). 05:57:50 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 05:58:39 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 06:03:05 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:09:35 Are there any languages other than Haskell that unify (or try to, at least) exceptions and error return values? 06:17:28 Do you have any suggestions on what would be simple and efficient way to store the effect frames for each channel internally before converting them to patterns? 06:20:03 I could just store each effect frame individually together with length if applicable, but that might be too long? 06:22:25 zzo38: it may be best to ask me about reality when i'm perhaps 10 years older, less depressed and more mentally stable. as it is i tend to freak out about once a day and prone to paranoia 06:27:30 shachaf: what does that mean? 06:28:44 kmc: Maybe and Either are concrete return values that can be checked normally, but can also be treated like exceptions. 06:29:38 if reality was safe, we wouldn't have so many safety devices and warning labels on everything. wander too far off the beaten track and theres no more of those 06:29:47 > do { x <- Right 1; y <- Left "oops"; return (x + y) } -- And all that. 06:29:48 Left "oops" 06:30:07 Where you have exceptions they're type-checked by their nature. 06:31:57 In a lot of languages people argue about exceptions being unpredictable and return values being inconvenient and so on. 06:32:06 Yes you do have the Maybe and Either monads (and Maybe is like Either () anyways). You get their Kleisli category of partial functions with error messages from that monad. 06:32:08 I'm not sure whether Haskell gives you the best or the worst of both worlds. :-) 06:32:17 But at least it's something. 06:32:40 What I think is that, it works well in the way you program it to work in the way you want it to work if it can be done with Haskell. 06:34:20 I also think there should be Alternative and MonadPlus instance for Either; it would be the same as what my Alternative and MonadPlus instances would be for Free monad and my Alternative instance for Const, if you use (Free (Const x)) like (Either x) 06:34:34 And then it also works with (Free Finalize) for Maybe 06:37:34 instance Plus f => Plus (Free f) where { zero = Free zero; plus (Pure x) _ = Pure x; plus _ (Pure x) = Pure x; plus (Free x) (Free y) = Free (plus x y); }; 06:38:16 " Is your opinion that mathematics is the true reality?" certainly mathematical analysis is available for every situation. it is in a sense inescapable much like the space-time continuum. 06:39:33 but still, the ultimate act of categorization is "what am i?" and "what do i need to be?" and if i am already what i need to be then the question is "why am i?" 06:42:02 and if it is correct for me to ask why am i, is it correct for everyone to ask it? so then "why am i and why is everybody?" 06:43:03 in asking these things though, the asker already knows that theres no answer to the question.. 06:53:04 -!- asiekierka has joined. 07:03:16 reality can extend to culture too.. like we have some sense of a culture, akin to our primitive senses.. the whole concept of a "theme" 07:04:08 like a well-kept grandmothers house with lots of flowers on every piece of furnishing in site, and lots of sandwiches and tea and cookies being offered 07:05:50 so apparently in psychology they call such a thing a schema 07:07:43 ^such things schema 07:09:08 so .. to be fair i was asked the question. maybe a rant was not anticipated. i am done with it. i didn't mean to offend anyone. 07:10:56 what 07:19:50 Have you ever invented the word "Yeshuaism"? 07:31:21 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:33:21 -!- luke3 has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de). 07:43:30 i think it's fascinating that everyone has unique fingerprints.. what does it mean zzo38? 07:44:55 to the extent that we are our bodies, then we are also our fingerprints 07:46:17 It only means fingerprints are a kind of unique idenfication, that's all 07:49:15 hmm 07:49:38 one positive thing about them is they are all equal 07:50:04 it's a symbol of equality in diversity 07:50:21 OK 07:50:31 lol. 07:51:17 itidus21: That can be solved. 07:51:40 With careful application of surgical techniques, one can have fingerprints removed. 07:51:55 like theres usually someone with the same first and surname as us.. someone with the same birthday as us. someone born in the same place as us. same blood type as us.. (although combined these elements do tend to make a unique id) 07:52:23 I'm probably the only living "Josiah Worcester". 07:52:47 -!- augur has joined. 07:52:48 Though I was able to find a historical "Josiah Worcester". 07:52:48 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:52:54 -!- augur has joined. 07:52:59 Probably me with a TARDIS. 07:53:35 zzo38: ok uh.. suppose that uh.. there was a bfjoust-like thing except based on an interpretation of fingerprints 07:53:54 i think that could be interesting 07:54:25 or for those people who don't have fingerprints.. well.. i don't know how to answer that 07:54:55 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 07:56:22 itidus21: I have written in the esolang list of ideas, one idea interpret the lines on your hand as a computer program; this can be done with fingerprints too. 07:56:43 its hard to have a fucking original idea these days eh 07:57:41 Yup, afraid the originalium ore was all mined up. 08:04:28 Actually I think it is the Bob Profit Principle. 08:06:05 zzo38: =)) you're the only result i get in google for "bob proffitt principle" 08:06:26 and.. more disturbingly you were addressing me then also 08:06:27 That is because it isn't on Google. 08:06:46 11.07.30 08:52:07 itidus20: I have heard that being called the "Bob Proffitt Principle" 08:06:58 is this itself the principle in action? 08:07:42 -!- Taneb has joined. 08:07:45 maybe it means i repeat myself 08:07:49 Hello 08:08:11 It means that since you probably are not the smartest person in the world (and maybe even if you are), if you have some idea, it is likely that other people have very similar ideas too. 08:08:30 anyway, i am great at independant discovery but I can't seem to actually think of anything which hasn't been thought of before 08:08:40 lol 08:09:17 Most of my ideas are stupid And probably been done before 08:09:19 But yes many people can discover/invent something independently, it seems espacially to be the case in mathematics. Including my ideas about mathematics, too. 08:09:22 quite so, quite so 08:09:30 oops sorry i read that wrong 08:09:36 :-s 08:10:12 Do you like mathematics? 08:10:43 i think that i would like mathematics if only i saw it correctly 08:11:34 i don't know what motivates mathematicians if infact noone sees mathematics correctly 08:11:54 i may not be the smartest person in the world but i can pick a 128-bit number that nobody else has ever picked before! 08:12:21 what does it mean to see mathematics correctly 08:12:27 what does it mean to see mathematics incorrectly 08:12:38 "food for itidus21thought" 08:12:40 seriously, human endeavor is so broad that you hardly need to be a world-class genius to be original in *some* field 08:13:27 monqy: well i think it helps to see numbers as abstractions of measurement (i don't know if this is so) and arithmetic as a means of manipulating those measurements 08:13:32 kmc: Well, yes; I did not mean all ideas are very similar to others, I just mean that many will be. 08:14:47 but, at the same time, i think numbers can be used to say like, red = 1, blue = 2, orange = 3, white = 4, violet = 5, green = 6 08:14:48 itidus21: Not all mathematics is numbers and measurement! 08:16:58 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 08:17:27 -!- Taneb has joined. 08:18:36 humm 08:19:53 people are so annoying that children leave their homes even at the cost of having to pay rent 08:20:32 :) 08:21:37 1000s of days to be spent doing some tedious labour at a factory to pay the rent all to escape the annoyances of ones family 08:22:32 red = 1, green = 2, yellow = 3, blue = 4, magenta = 5, cyan = 6, white = 7 08:23:22 itidus21: does this mean being annoying "helps the economy" ? ? ? ? ? 08:23:28 "food for itidus21thought" 08:27:18 monqy: well, about seeing it correctly, a question is if i am counting am i using mathematics? :D 08:28:00 or is mathematics in this regard an analysis of counting :-? 08:28:10 food for itidus21thought. 08:28:55 oh monqy, i have to show you my turing machine some time 08:29:09 : o 08:29:11 : D 08:30:13 to see my turing machine in action visit this TM simulator http://morphett.info/turing/turing.html and the pastebin has the necessary code and explanation http://pastebin.com/XJf4cPyd 08:30:22 fwiw this is a more interesting input "....888.s..c..>.|..8.8.8.8.8.8.8.8.8.8....|...<...888.c.c...c." 08:34:58 I'll take your word ! 08:35:15 yeah..! 08:37:08 the insight i gained is that while brainfuck can peform the same computations as a turing machine, brainfuck's per-instruction manipulation of the tape itself cannot match a turing machine step for step 08:42:39 brainfuck seems to replace write_symbol with increment_symbol/decrement_symbol. and read_symbol replaced with read_isblank. 08:45:40 as for comparing the state changing mechanism to the [ ] system, well thats not so trivial for me 08:57:57 -!- TodPunk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:58:07 -!- TodPunk has joined. 09:10:41 Do you like to have closed classes and automatic classes in Haskell (or Ibtlfmm)? Automatic classes are a generalization of closed classes. In Haskell, it might be done by a TH function usable in a class declaration and having the type: ([Type] -> Q (Maybe [Dec])) -> Q [Dec] 09:14:00 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:17:16 -!- oerjan has joined. 09:19:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 09:22:49 the insight i gained is that while brainfuck can peform the same computations as a turing machine, brainfuck's per-instruction manipulation of the tape itself cannot match a turing machine step for step 09:24:24 um i was going to say that's why my minimal TM brainfuck proof uses 3 cells instead of just 2, but that's more a comparison with minsky machines. 09:39:16 -!- john_metcalf has joined. 09:40:28 itidus21: You can convert from (finite-cell) brainfuck to TM easily by making the bf program pointer value equal the TM state number. Something like http://sprunge.us/ZgOY (untested). 09:40:52 (It's in the NTCM syntax.) 10:03:03 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Gah noise). 10:05:43 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 10:13:32 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 10:25:15 -!- Taneb has joined. 10:25:27 Hello 10:44:28 Hi 10:46:02 Greetings 11:07:02 monqy: "monqyfacts plz" 11:07:25 i can't just make up interesting facts on command ! 11:07:41 (thats monqy fact #1) 11:07:46 (- monqy) 11:08:02 Yay! 11:08:04 monqy fact #2 is that that's monqy fact #1, btw 11:08:13 Is that monqy fact #3? 11:08:17 yes 11:08:21 HELP 11:08:25 theres no end 11:08:27 Are there any other monqy facts? 11:08:30 yes 11:08:36 for instance: monqy fact #4 11:09:01 What's that? 11:09:42 "there are 4 monqy facts" 11:09:53 Can I have: 11:09:55 "monqyadvice" 11:10:06 monqy advice: 11:10:13 don't asl about monqy fact #5 11:10:16 it doesn't exist 11:10:24 it's a bad idea to ask about things that don't exist 11:10:26 so don't do it 11:10:30 - monqy advice 11:10:38 monqy: What's monqy fact #6? 11:10:44 :'( 11:10:48 :'( 11:10:51 UH OH 11:10:56 Does #6 exist? 11:11:00 no 11:11:06 there are only four monqy facts !!! 11:11:07 :'( 11:11:26 Are you going to explode now? 11:11:31 no 11:11:37 Oh. 11:11:41 if you want more facts you can make up a "shachaf facts" or something 11:11:41 "sorry monqy" 11:11:47 monqy: Oh! 11:11:57 monqy: tell me a "shachaffacts" 11:12:09 only you, shachaf, can "shachaf facts" 11:12:16 similarly, if you want explosions, you can explode upon exhaustion of "shachaf facts" 11:12:27 explode to your heart's desire 11:12:28 or 11:12:29 don't 11:12:31 monqy fact #7: there are more than 20 monqy facts 11:12:31 if you don't desire it 11:12:33 it's up to you 11:12:36 : o 11:12:40 that's a lie 11:12:47 monqy lies #1 is that 11:12:48 monqy fact #7 is a lie? 11:13:15 it's monqy lies #1 but misnumbered 11:13:25 oh :'( 11:13:36 what:'(s monqy lies #2 :'( 11:13:52 monqy lies #2 is "the number of monqy lies is greater than two" 11:14:21 monqy: what:'(s monqy lies #4 11:14:29 it doesn't exist!!!! 11:14:34 OH NO 11:15:48 #1 monqy can't just make up interesting facts on command! 11:15:56 #2 the text "monqy can't just make up interesting facts on command!" is fact #1 11:16:01 #3 fact the text "the text "monqy can't just make up interesting facts on command!" is fact #1" is fact #2 11:16:03 :) is the scariest smiley. 11:16:05 itidus21: DUDE NO 11:16:07 #4 there are 4 facts 11:16:12 It's THE STARE. 11:16:18 :) 11:16:29 oops i made typo in #3 11:16:36 itidus21: #2 is that monqy fact #1 is that monqy can't just make up interesting facts on command 11:16:43 a text can't be a fact 11:17:09 humm 11:17:26 i'm new to this 11:19:48 shachaf: i'm starting to break through the math notations. 11:20:25 my time in this room may be paying off in the long term 11:23:20 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 11:39:51 -!- john_metcalf has quit (Quit: john_metcalf). 11:42:29 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 11:43:08 -!- pikhq has joined. 11:54:49 -!- Taneb has joined. 11:55:00 Hello 12:12:07 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 12:16:00 -!- Frooxius|TabletP has joined. 12:19:55 -!- Frooxius|TabletP has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:25:10 Google didn't use a proper TM control mechanism for the doodle :/ 12:25:23 -!- Frooxius|TabletP has joined. 12:25:53 -!- Frooxius|TabletP has quit (Client Quit). 12:26:06 A what? 12:26:09 -!- Frooxius|TabletP has joined. 12:26:36 what doodle? 12:27:05 A TM as originally defined doesn't have an instruction list like the doodle does, it has a FSM with tape operations. 12:27:20 nortti, google.com, click the tape. 12:27:35 nortti is probably using something like lynx 12:27:40 links2 12:28:12 don't worry nortti, you're only missing the chance to criticize something 12:28:13 Phantom_Hoover: That instruction list is a FSM 12:28:15 It's just a bit limited 12:28:19 Perhaps to make it more accessible. 12:28:19 but I usually use google wit my s_google shell script 12:28:38 Lumpio-, it's dumbed down for the casuals. 12:29:02 nortti: to celebrate alan turing's 100th birthday, google put up a small TM-based quiz on their homepage 12:29:03 Considering that less than 5% of the people who see it understand what it is without googling it 12:29:06 I think it's niche enough :P 12:30:47 probably a great deal less than 5% 12:31:11 or maybe no 12:31:19 maybe 5% is realistic 12:31:26 5% is not realistic. 12:31:39 Most programmers have no idea how a TM works. 12:31:49 Most mathematicians have no idea how a TM works. 12:32:01 * itidus21 wonders how i ended up down this rabbit hole. 12:32:10 * itidus21 wonders how he ended up down this rabbit hole. 12:33:03 This channel probably has one of the highest concentrations of people who know how a TM works, and I'm not sure how many here actually know how a TM works. 12:33:35 Well 12:33:42 I got 5% by using the Steson-Harrison method so 12:33:47 It might be a lot less. 12:33:53 Ooh hey I made a non-halting machine. 12:34:07 how? 12:34:54 The 'l' in the second round of puzzles. 12:36:47 -!- rvchangue has quit (Quit: γ€€). 12:39:09 ? it doesn't work in hv3. is the TM written in js? 12:39:27 Yes. 12:39:56 strange. google still gives me static version even if I use hv3 with js enabled 12:40:20 nortti: believe me sir i understand why you feel a need to see it 12:40:31 even though it is a pithy nothing 12:40:56 nortti, you could try using a graphical browser, but I suspect you have some objection or other to that. 12:41:19 for instance 12:41:41 Phantom_Hoover: hv3 is graphical browser with js support. even links2 is graphical 12:42:15 i downloaded 225mb worth of japanese game manuals (11 or them) for the neo geo game console, just to see them 12:43:32 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 12:43:33 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 12:43:56 in other worse, i'm a conservative user of internet bandwidth, unlike anyone streaming video constantly 12:44:26 -!- rvchangue has joined. 12:47:55 nortti, in that case, a mainstream browser, but you definitely will have some objection or other to that. 12:49:34 What an amazing reward for completing the doodle, though: a search for "Alan Turing". 12:49:51 is bon echo mainstream enough? 12:51:29 Incidentally, I got a static version on the N900 browser too, even though it's a Gecko-based thing that certainly should be capable of running it. 12:52:17 maybe it works by detecting user agent or something stupid 12:52:20 nortti, it was mainstream. 12:53:06 OK I'm tired of this game, do you have any actual reason not to just point the latest Firefox or Chromium at it. 12:53:52 yes. running out of RAM on browser startup and swap thrashing that slows it to unusable speed 12:54:15 Oh, right, you have ~no RAM. 12:54:45 I was trying to remember what point you were trying to prove. 12:54:51 nortti: i understand your predicament 12:55:33 i spent real time searching though google for the japanese manual or the nintendo famicom game "super mario usa" 12:55:48 ^for 12:55:57 That's a game? 12:56:15 yes.. known in the west as "super mario bros. 2" 12:56:15 The user agent for the N900 browser is "Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux armv7l; en-GB; rv:1.9.2.3pre) Gecko/20100723 Firefox/3.5 Maemo Browser 1.7.4.8 RX-51 N900" which I would think should look mainstream enough. 12:56:26 hmm 12:56:40 they released it in japan as "super mario usa" 12:57:21 Huh, Adblock messes up Acid3. 12:57:44 nortti: there is something i can do though to help! 12:58:11 Super Mario β˜…β˜…β˜… U S A FUCK YEAH 12:58:14 oops 12:59:11 itidus21: what? 12:59:13 http://users.ics.aalto.fi/htkallas/chromium-acid.png well that was a poor showing. 12:59:35 I mean, sure, it's an impressive 100/100, but it's not quite like the reference image. 12:59:43 nortti: click this pic http://oi50.tinypic.com/5cbw2x.jpg 13:00:15 thats roughly what it looks like.. 13:00:30 nortti: I suggest you install Chromium, all websites runs mighty fine on it. 13:00:32 the only interacting is to toggle the yellow buttons between a few states 13:00:38 and then click the green button 13:00:47 And it should run smoothly on a modern system with at least 4GB of RAM and a recent processor 13:00:53 so now your curiosity might be relieved.. and you don't need to load it 13:01:30 Lumpio-: yeah. the swap trashing even on midori was so horrible I am not installing that bloatware 13:01:44 nortti: are you able to view jpeg links? 13:01:51 yes 13:01:52 nortti: Maybe you don't have enough RAM. 13:02:04 itidus21: The fact that you even have to ask that is sad. 13:02:10 i took a screenshot of the page in question.. its the most i can do :-D 13:02:25 Lumpio-: oh really? I have 64MB of RAM 13:02:44 its a 71kb image 13:03:03 nortti, I think you may not be able to call modern software 'bloatware' when your system has decade-old specs. 13:03:09 nortti: I'm sorry but that's below the minimum requirements of modern life. 13:03:10 914px Χ 576px 13:03:22 itidus21: Remember that it's much bigger uncompressed 13:03:41 Lumpio-: good point 13:04:16 my graphics card(which my brother gave to me as a kind birthday present this year) has 1gb of ram 13:04:30 i can't help but be amused by 64mb ram 13:04:47 4GB of RAM costs under £20. 13:05:32 itidus21: don't have 64 millibits of RAM 13:05:32 I think it's OK to play with retro stuff 13:05:36 It can be a lot of fun 13:05:42 But you can't honestly expect everybody else to play along 13:05:49 It's not 1996 anymore. 13:05:55 Oh yeah, playing with it is great fun. Using it as your primary system? 13:06:05 retro? this is only 12 years old for gods sake 13:06:28 My neighbour did use his Acorn Archimedes up til a few years ago, but he really only used it for word processing. 13:06:30 That is retro. 13:06:53 nortti, hey fun fact, computer hardware has a short life-cycle! 13:07:06 Did you know that there's this thing called 'Moore's Law'? 13:07:46 but still. I can call my 18 year old server retro but this T20 isn't 13:07:56 Yes, it is. 13:08:04 You don't get to decide what words mean. 13:08:22 what is the definition of retro then? 13:08:53 1. retro -- (a fashion reminiscent of the past) 13:08:56 Actually... 13:08:57 I'm not a dictionary. 13:08:58 @wn retro 13:08:59 *** "retro" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)" 13:08:59 retro 13:08:59 adj 1: affecting things past; "retroactive tax increase"; "an 13:08:59 ex-post-facto law"; "retro pay" [syn: {ex post facto}, 13:08:59 {retroactive}, {retro}] 13:09:01 n 1: a fashion reminiscent of the past 13:09:13 And even a dictionary does not reflect vernacular usage. 13:09:18 lambdabot *is* a dictionary. 13:10:01 Which "T20" is that? 13:10:11 Is it the ThinkPad sort of T20? 13:10:17 yes 13:10:21 No, the cricket sort. 13:10:27 That should come with 128 MB standard. 13:10:30 You've been shortcharged. 13:10:49 yes. this is taken from dumpster 13:11:01 I guess in that case you can't complain. 13:11:16 64MB was biggest PC100 stick I could find 13:12:08 IT doesn't have more than one slot? According to specs, you could fill it up to 512 MB officially. 13:12:33 "Recognizes up to 512 MB of addressable memory in models with the Mobile Pentium III processor. Memory options up to 256 MB SDRAM SODIMMs each can be added in the two available slots for memory expansion." 13:12:57 fizzie: other slot is damaged 13:12:59 -!- Frooxius|TabletP has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:13:15 it doesn't recognise RAM in there 13:13:25 Oh. No wonder it was in a dumpster. 13:14:10 Why not get a bigger stick? 13:14:21 16:12 < nortti> 64MB was biggest PC100 stick I could find 13:15:06 When you say 'find' I assume you mean 'find in the dumpster'. 13:15:27 no 13:15:38 at used computer store 13:15:44 Ah, of course. 13:16:08 Well I hope you do something nice with the £20 or so you've saved. 13:16:21 it had no ram and no hd when it was thrown in there 13:16:49 Lemme guess, the HD is... hmm, 4GB? 13:16:49 well it is my most powerful computer... 13:16:56 How much money have you invested in this computer? 13:17:00 30GB HD 13:17:33 fizzie: 2 euros for ram sticks and 4 euros for HD (from friend) 13:18:40 Meanwhile for €20 you could get a Raspberry Pi with better specs. 13:18:48 Also it would be awesome./ 13:19:40 raspi has slower CPU (or so I am told) 13:20:55 OTOH you might actually be able to run... well, something on it. 13:21:28 well yeah. f they get decent RISC OS port I'll buy one 13:21:33 *if 13:23:42 Ah, I understand: you need it to run RISC OS so that you don't accidentally have a chance to run a modern browser. 13:23:47 :P 13:23:52 s/modern/mainstream/ or whatever. 13:24:21 fizzie, hey now, RISC OS has the original Elite. 13:24:25 hm 13:24:26 I see there's a Firefox 2 port, too. 13:24:45 Wait no it doesn't, it has like Archimedes Elite. 13:24:51 well bon echo runs on it and I might be able to port my bit updated fork of gecko 1.8 to it 13:25:07 (What is even the deal with Firefox versions? I remember when 2.6 was A Big Deal and now it's up to 13.) 13:25:23 there is no firefox 2.6 13:25:48 They had to catch up Chrome is what I think is the deal. 13:25:56 Right, sorry, why isn't the thing called Firefox 2.6 actually Firefox 2.6? 13:26:09 so it's marketing 13:26:21 Phantom_Hoover: what is 2.6? or do you mean 3.6? 13:26:58 Oh right, I was thinking of 3.5 13:26:58 firefox probably has more users than linux 13:27:08 so marketing is a big deal :D 13:27:11 Anyway, it's now six weeks per major Firefox version, it's just their scheme. 13:27:28 https://wiki.mozilla.org/RapidRelease and all that. 13:27:37 I think that firefox's versioning went to hell after 3 13:28:53 i read that the godfather II set the precident for numbered sequals in hollywood 13:29:14 ? 13:30:02 the fact that they called the sequal of "the godfather" as "the godfather II" 13:30:14 ^sequel 13:31:04 up until then apparently hollywood had been conciously avoiding numbered sequels 13:31:09 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 13:31:49 -!- copumpkin has joined. 13:35:21 I still call firefox 3 (and internaly I tweaked my builds to report gecko version as 2.0 and 2.1) 13:36:34 What does ESR have to do with it? 13:37:42 10 is ESR, from there on I call it firefox 5 series. 17 is ESR, from there on I call it firefox 6 series and so on 13:39:32 -!- elliott has joined. 13:39:51 because 3.6 which is comparable to ESR terminated 3.x series 13:42:57 -!- derdon has joined. 13:43:14 -!- Patashu has quit (Quit: MSN: Patashu@hotmail.com , Gmail: Patashu0@gmail.com , AIM: Patashu0 , YIM: patashu2 , Skype: patashu0 .). 13:47:55 -!- john_metcalf has joined. 13:51:02 Monqy fact #7 has to exist to be a lie. Therefore monqy fact #4 is also a lie. 13:51:16 So there are at least two Monqy facts we don't know, 13:51:23 There are monqy facts? 13:51:35 #5 and #6. What are you hiding from us monqy? 13:51:57 I've never been more confused in my life. Except when talking to monqy 13:53:01 13:23:42: Ah, I understand: you need it to run RISC OS so that you don't accidentally have a chance to run a modern browser. 13:53:17 fizzie: Unfortunately: http://www.netsurf-browser.org/ has an HTML 5 parser and does CSS. 13:53:29 Admittedly not JS. 13:53:59 netsurf is nice browser. if I'd only get the framebuffer version to build 13:54:59 a given monqy fact can address itself or another given monqy fact! 13:55:23 how come i get the interactive doodle but my friend gets just a simple logo <-- I checked on a phone and all I got was a simple logo 13:55:33 kmc, so maybe he was using a different browser? 13:55:45 kmc: Or timezones, perhaps. 13:56:00 elliott, they were on the same connection 13:56:24 theres probably some autistic savants who if they numbered lines in their conversations could talk very efficiently 13:57:36 13:23:42: Ah, I understand: you need it to run RISC OS so that you don't accidentally have a chance to run a modern browser. 13:57:43 elliott, why are you looking for an old browser? 13:57:57 just use lynx or something? 13:57:58 Vorpal: Why are you responding to a quote out of context and assuming context for it? 13:58:07 elliott, I read the line below as well 13:58:48 anyway if the context was wrong, okay, whatever 13:59:31 16:19 < Phantom_Hoover> Meanwhile for β– 20 you could get a Raspberry Pi with better specs. 13:59:34 16:19 < Phantom_Hoover> Also it would be awesome./ 13:59:37 16:20 < nortti> raspi has slower CPU (or so I am told) 13:59:39 16:21 < Phantom_Hoover> OTOH you might actually be able to run... well, something on it. 13:59:42 16:22 < nortti> well yeah. f they get decent RISC OS port I'll buy one 13:59:45 16:22 < nortti> *if 13:59:47 16:24 < fizzie> Ah, I understand: you need it to run RISC OS so that you don't accidentally have a chance to run a modern browser. 13:59:53 β– 20? 14:00:07 nortti, right 14:00:24 Vorpal: nortti's computer hasn't the RAM to display Unicode. 14:00:24 what the hell is [black box unicode char]20? 14:00:29 Vorpal: Thus it is modern bloatware. 14:00:30 elliott, lol 14:00:34 :D 14:01:03 elliott: actually fbcon just doesn't handle some chars that well 14:01:25 is monqy facts an esolang 14:01:28 because: it should be 14:01:48 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:02:01 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 14:02:52 it might be 14:03:12 it seems to resemble forth 14:03:21 but i haven't used forth so i can't really say that 14:03:58 monqy facts use postfix notation? 14:04:52 the monqy facts language basically consists of building a list of monqy facts 14:04:55 -!- Frooxius|TabletP has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 14:05:45 hrrm, how do I pull the SMS off a nokia non-smart-phone (dumb phone?) 14:06:04 nokia suite? 14:06:16 or was it renamed ovi suite 14:06:22 hm, I'm on linux 14:06:59 also all I have is bluetooth, might be able to find a mini-USB somewhere though 14:07:16 then you are screwed 14:07:16 I pulled the contacts over bluetooth easily on Linux 14:07:21 right 14:08:01 also my desktop that dual boots to windows has 64-bit windows 7. This phone predates windows vista. Chances of working drivers for 64-bit? Slim. 14:08:26 oh. google TM might require html5 support 14:09:12 well, everyone has that nowdays 14:09:22 nortti: it's such a trivial thing though.. it's not a TM simulator 14:09:23 unless it is a mobile browser 14:09:44 it's just a 6 stage quiz 14:09:55 its cool i admit that 14:10:01 * john_metcalf wants one of those Touch Book things that run Risc OS. 14:10:12 hm it is doing /something/ 14:10:17 lots of drivers installing 14:11:08 and it seems to have nokia suite for 64-bit windows. Well that went better than I expected 14:11:46 lol this phone has mini-usb but doesn't charge over mini-usb? 14:11:47 XD 14:13:22 Man, Sil's manual is fancy as heck. 14:13:31 elliott, what is Sil? 14:13:36 http://www.amirrorclear.net/flowers/game/sil/ 14:14:06 yeah 14:14:07 Yay! The spider that's been hiding inside the keyboard has finally emerged... 14:14:26 -!- Frooxius|TabletP has joined. 14:14:31 that certainly looks appealing 14:14:51 Vorpal: It's a new roguelike that is supposedly very good. 14:14:52 elliott, is it is an angband fork? 14:15:18 it mentions Angband on the website 14:15:18 Vorpal: Yes, but it completely replaces huge swathes of the mechanics, and heavily discourages the standard grinding and so on. 14:15:23 right 14:15:27 Well, um, Angband is a thing in Tolkein. 14:15:31 *Tolkien 14:15:33 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angband 14:15:33 well I know 14:15:40 "It is also one of very few games that stays true to the writings of Tolkien. Carefully researched, it dispenses with many generic fantasy tropes and reveals a different world. There are no wizards or priests, no platemail or magical scrolls. Instead, it is the Norse Saga inspired world that Tolkien imagined, with warriors clad in shining mail, singing songs of rage or sorrow as they slay. The magic of the world is subtle yet powerful: there are 14:15:40 songs of fear and of binding, rather than spells of fireball and teleportation." 14:15:41 but there is also angband the roguelike 14:15:54 elliott, is it still ASCII graphics? Because that manual seems way too fancy for that 14:16:05 There's screenshots right there on the page, you know. 14:16:18 There's no tiles but I think he wants to make an existing Angband tileset or work or something. 14:16:30 It's like Minecraft, you can forge your own artefacts! 14:17:00 oh right, further down 14:18:10 Did anyone ever play Legend of the Red Dragon II: New World? 14:18:21 what sort of game is that? 14:18:41 Multi-player BBS door game, slightly roguelike. 14:18:42 Vorpal: (Also despite the windowed mode screenshots, it does in fact compile and run in a terminal on Linux.) 14:19:16 right 14:20:05 It also has a nice tutorial thing. 14:20:13 I would like to see a roguelike with isometric tiles. Avernum style. There is nothing in the concept of roguelike that says it has to be ASCII graphics. 14:20:30 Vorpal: See Vulture's Eye. 14:20:37 Or its predecessor, Falcon's Eye. 14:21:00 Of course, like all tiles versions they're harder to play and less aesthetically pleasing than glyphs. 14:21:04 oh was that the nethack based thing? 14:21:09 Yes. 14:21:19 the text on the Sil page does sound like the words of a man possessed by his work 14:21:22 iirc Falcon's Eye didn't work very well 14:21:33 One of the cool thing about Sil I've heard is that you get exp from just seeng monsters, not only fighting them, and also for reaching new depths, etc. So it's feasible to play a pacifist diving game. 14:22:00 elliott, anyway the tiles were too big in Falcon's Eye. Avernum have really small ones. Not sure about the exact size but less than a tenth of Falcon's Eye's tiles I would say 14:22:05 elliott: yeah even i noticed that... on one of the screenshots.. thats mind blowing 14:23:21 its still not even close to the type of games i play but i can tell that it's cool 14:24:08 "Encountering another would be worth 26 experience. Killing one would be worth 80." 14:30:51 elliott: NetSurf is kind of why I changed 'modern' to 'mainstream'. 14:31:02 fizzie: Heh. 14:31:07 fizzie: I didn't notice. :( 14:31:13 fizzie: Im sory. 14:31:34 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:32:37 -!- asiekierka has joined. 14:40:55 -!- john_metcalf has quit (Quit: john_metcalf). 14:41:23 -!- oonbotti has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:46:47 "Secondly the code is extremely complicated, toady has a Ph.D in mathematics." -- redditor, on DF. 14:49:32 heh 14:55:05 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 14:55:43 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 14:58:28 -!- Frooxius|TabletP has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:08:09 -!- oklopol has joined. 15:32:21 -!- john_metcalf has joined. 15:42:02 http://madebyevan.com/webgl-path-tracing/ 15:45:28 nortti: Errrr, are you Martin Unzner? 15:45:36 wat 15:45:48 Judging by the .fi in your domain, I'm gonna go with "no" 15:46:12 nortti: Is your version of C2BF up somewhere? 15:47:55 Gregor: who;s martin unzner 15:48:09 elliott: Somebody who just emailed a patch to C2BF to me. 15:48:12 I went "lolwut" 16:02:08 -!- Taneb has joined. 16:11:37 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:16:03 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 16:18:05 Hello 16:19:04 > ord 'βˆ™' 16:19:06 8729 16:19:09 ais523: what is the UTF-8 encoding of that? thx 16:19:11 kmc: you may also apply 16:19:12 Gregor: also you 16:19:18 preferably in hex! 16:20:53 11100010 10001000 10011001 16:20:55 You can hex it yourself. 16:21:02 jerk >:( 16:21:09 `frink 0b11100010 -> hex 16:21:29 e2 16:21:36 hey 16:21:36 it works 16:21:37 neat 16:21:41 Gregor: is it really three bytes 16:21:45 `frink 0b10001000 -> hex 16:21:55 88 16:21:55 `frink 10011001 -> hex 16:22:05 98c179 16:22:10 Gregor: help 16:22:12 Gregor: are you lying to me 16:22:29 ... wut the hell X-D 16:22:33 Oh, you forgot 0b 16:22:33 `frink 0b10011001 -> hex 16:22:41 99 16:22:58 Oh. 16:23:11 \xe2\x88\x99 16:23:12 thx Gregor 16:23:24 You should've been able to do that yourself ;) 16:23:26 another bogey! 16:23:31 `frink 8729 -> binary 16:23:41 10001000011001 16:23:51 Then split it by groups of 6 from the right 16:23:57 10 001000 011001 16:24:02 Then add UTF-8 prefixes 16:24:10 11100010 10001000 10011001 16:24:29 hmm 16:25:56 0b isn't a lot of work but i wonder if one day numbers will be more complicated 16:26:47 itidus21, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_base#Base_.E2.88.921.C2.B1i 16:26:50 like depending on the size of a number, changes it's default base encoding 16:27:20 i was thinking on a different tangent but i may as well clikc this link! 16:28:02 Gregor: my c2bf is not available anywhere. I'd like to include his patch if he agrees to license it under ISC/MIT/BSD/CC0/WTFPL license 16:28:27 nortti, as a single license? 16:29:00 one of those. my fork is under ISC 16:29:16 It's a small patch, but I'd rather see your version become accessible first ;) 16:29:32 ok 16:29:51 I'll try to get it to github 16:30:33 itidus21, like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factorial_number_system ? 16:30:51 ill click that in a second.. but what i am proposing is truely fucked up 16:31:35 x=1 xx=10 xxx=11 xxxx=4 xxxxx=5 xxx xxx=6 xxxx xxx=7 xxxx xxxx=8 xxxxx xxxx=9 xxxxx xxxxx=A x xxxxx xxxxx=B xx xxxxx xxxxx=12 16:32:03 -!- oonbotti has joined. 16:33:07 oh ok maybe that is like that 16:38:25 basically though, using a sequence of digits without specifying the base, the only rule being that a sequence of digits maps to only one numeric value 16:38:58 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 16:39:24 itidus21, I'm going to say that is actually stupid. 16:39:46 You'd need to explicitly define a new sequence of digits for each number 16:42:57 x=1 xx=10 xxx=11 xxxx=1111 xxxxx=5 xxx xxx=6 xxxx xxx=21 xxxx xxxx=8 xxxxx xxxx=9 xxxxx xxxxx=A 16:43:24 it's indeed stupid. 16:47:13 That pretty much rules out induction 16:47:23 And limits you to a finite number of numbers 16:47:30 well it doesn't absolutely have to be arbitrary 16:47:46 Yes it does, the only rule is that they're unique 16:48:28 hummm 16:48:42 i know.. 16:48:53 prime numbers can be in hexadecimal! 16:48:59 If it was just silly, that would be okay 16:49:03 uh... 16:49:09 But if it's arbitrary, it's useless 16:49:31 humm.. 16:49:41 i know 16:50:21 hi 16:50:35 where a number is a prime number in both decimal and hexadecimal... then its digits are to be interpreted as-- this aint gonna work 16:50:50 but, that would be an interesting set of numbers! 16:51:04 2, 3, 5, 7 16:51:07 11 16:51:15 13 16:51:23 17 16:51:26 Not 19, though 16:51:45 well i couldn't make an encoding rule out of that trivially 16:51:52 29? 16:51:54 but it is in itself a fascinating sequence 16:52:05 Yeah, after 17 the next is 29 16:52:19 :t mfix 16:52:21 forall a (m :: * -> *). (MonadFix m) => (a -> m a) -> m a 16:52:24 :t tell 16:52:26 forall w (m :: * -> *). (MonadWriter w m) => w -> m () 16:52:50 > execWriter $ mfix (\x -> tell [1] >> return x) 16:52:51 [1] 16:53:14 How useless is that? 16:53:32 well um 16:53:35 you don't actually use the result 16:54:11 The result is _|_, I think 16:54:20 @src mfix 16:54:21 Source not found. stty: unknown mode: doofus 16:56:15 @src Writer [Int] mfix 16:56:15 Source not found. Take a stress pill and think things over. 16:56:26 @src mfix WriterT 16:56:27 Source not found. You untyped fool! 16:56:34 @src WriterT mfix 16:56:34 Source not found. You type like i drive. 16:56:37 @help src 16:56:37 src . Display the implementation of a standard function 16:58:45 @src mfix WriterT w m 16:58:46 Source not found. Maybe if you used more than just two fingers... 16:58:48 mfix m = WriterT $ mfix $ \ ~(a, _) -> runWriterT (m a) 16:58:52 That's what it is 17:00:55 http://oeis.org/A103144 17:01:14 dang they sure do have a sequence for everything 17:01:25 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:01:37 iota programs which do not halt 17:03:32 Is there a term for trees where the data is in the leaves rather than the branches? 17:03:49 data LeafTree a = Node a | Branch [LeafTree a] 17:04:15 that type is a Monad, btw 17:04:31 oerjan, it's Free [], I believe 17:04:38 yeah 17:04:51 Whereas a branch tree is Cofree [] 17:04:55 :t Node 17:04:57 forall a. a -> Forest a -> Tree a 17:05:26 lambdabot's Tree seems to have it in the branches 17:05:36 Yeah, it's Data.Tree 17:05:59 oh Cofree? so a comonad? 17:06:03 Yeah 17:06:09 * oerjan doesn't actually know Cofree but guesses so 17:06:23 Data Cofree f a = a :< f (Cofree f a) 17:08:09 Cofree Maybe is non-empty lists? 17:08:21 Yep 17:08:30 Cofree Identity is infinite streams 17:08:51 heh I read that as coffee first 17:08:51 Free Zero is Maybe 17:09:02 or wait is it 17:09:09 data Zero a = Zero? 17:09:11 Yes 17:09:23 (I'd call it Proxy) 17:09:32 Cofree Zero is Identity 17:09:46 not Zero, that was wrong 17:10:02 Proxy, then 17:10:05 Which is that 17:10:14 data Zero; 17:10:21 I'd call that Void? 17:10:28 Zero is Void 17:10:31 Okay 17:10:31 One is () 17:10:33 Two is Bool 17:10:34 by zzo38's terminology, maybe i should try not to absorb that :P 17:10:35 etc. 17:10:56 Plus is Either, right? 17:10:58 Three is Ordering 17:11:04 And Times is (,)? 17:11:22 and Power is -> 17:11:44 that's right on the edge of my comprehension, I'm gonna brb and think about that 17:12:30 Succ is Maybe 17:12:33 Taneb: think of the cardinality 17:12:43 how many functions A -> B are there, given the size of A is x and the size of B is why 17:12:50 (consider A = Ordering, B = Bool, and so on) 17:12:51 (also ignore _|_) 17:14:17 Back 17:15:02 I see it now :) 17:19:22 But nobody answered my question :/ 17:22:36 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rt68KHKrBjU 17:22:49 Baptists do not fear getting their trousers soaked, apparently. 17:23:52 Apparently, there's a sale at IKEA 17:24:40 Carl Full Immersion Baptism Baptismal Service Baptisms Baptise Baptists Baptize 17:25:16 Someone doesn't know how to use tags 17:26:18 Phantom_Hoover: what if he was too tall and banged his head 17:26:19 what then 17:46:35 -!- calamari has joined. 17:53:20 Hello, calamari 17:53:39 hi Taneb 17:54:10 Do you know if there is a name for tree structures where the data is stored in the leaves rather than the branches? 17:54:25 I don't know 17:55:28 isn't data usually stored in both? 17:57:40 Yep 18:02:30 -!- zzo38 has joined. 18:03:06 zzo38, do you know if there is a name for tree structures where data is stored in the leaves rather than the branches? 18:07:26 @tell me 18:09:07 why do you want to know? 18:11:27 Taneb: I don't know. But if it is binary tree, then data stored in leaves would be (Free ((->) Bool)) and data stored in branches would be (Cofree ((->) Bool)), I think. 18:11:56 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 18:12:04 Phantom_Hoover: what if he was too tall and banged his head 18:12:12 then he is blessed with a concussion 18:13:34 elliott: is there a specific town in GB that brits make jokes about? 18:18:27 they call hexham the eso state and often make brainfuck jokes about it. 18:29:56 What's the best way to sum an array of floats? Maybe remove the smallest two and put their sum in the array until only one is left? 18:32:02 -!- Taneb has joined. 18:32:08 Hello 18:32:19 nooga_: not really towns, just a few cities and regions. 18:32:23 Hi Taneb :-) 18:32:53 A Finger Tree, I think, is an example of what I've been asking about 18:33:33 zzo38, leaves is Free []; branches is Cofree [] 18:33:54 Taneb: Yes, that is the multiple branches tree 18:34:02 Yeah 18:34:16 I suppose the (->) Bool works as a binary one 18:34:36 Yes 18:41:04 i think i'm starting to actually learn something 18:41:39 woohoo 18:41:45 :) 18:41:48 What are you learning 18:42:11 ah.. i have thought up a really bizzare thing 18:42:29 humm 18:42:44 numerous questions in my mind abound.. 18:43:58 1)does it already exist? 2)is it patented? a lot? i always dislike patents. 3)is it too similar to anything? 18:44:07 just the usual questions of direness 18:44:21 john_metcalf: can You give an example? 18:45:57 Taneb: ahh.. well i have done enough reading for today about random things.. my brain probably needs a rest 18:46:05 that is why i am thinking about making coffee 18:46:20 Real or instant? 18:46:26 instant 18:46:39 ok ok ill just tell you my idea 18:47:38 nooga_: Essex: easy girls, Norfolk: inbred, Somerset: cider drinking farmers, Wales: sheep shaggers 18:48:11 I also dislike patents a lot 18:48:19 to hook up a virtual animation studio to a FSA 18:48:28 nooga_, Glasgow: murderous murderers 18:49:02 john_metcalf, your stereotypes seem quite southern 18:49:02 i wonder if this is infact just a dumb version of mugen... it might be :P 18:50:34 1)place a cel 2)remove a cel 3)draw on a cel(including drawing nothing) 4)move a cel 5)change the z-layer of a cel 6)photograph the scene 18:52:42 x,y <- cel position(cel #), x <- cel z-layer(cel #), x <- cel drawing(cel #), list of cels <- cels at point(x,y), list of cels <- cels in rect(x1,y1,x2,y2) 18:52:56 not sure about that list of cels bit 18:53:03 don't have a good reason for it 18:53:18 john_metcalf, hey what's the Edinburgh stereotype. 18:54:00 taking all these things and connecting them to a FSA and producing a series of "photographs" 18:58:59 place a cel at 50,50 -> draw frame 1 on cel 1 -> photograph -> move cel 1 to 55,50 -> draw frame 2 on cel 1 -> photograph 18:59:02 Phantom_Hoover: lots of bagpipes 18:59:17 -!- variable has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:59:22 no that's not a stereotype that's just an observation 18:59:28 ah. 18:59:40 Phantom_Hoover: can't think of anything specific to Edinburgh. 18:59:42 kilts? 19:00:00 Only really on formal occasions or on the goddamn bagpipers. 19:00:16 Edinburgh is only stereotypically Scottish when convenient. 19:00:17 -> place a cel at 55,50 -> draw frame hat on cel 2 -> photograph 19:00:35 Phantom_Hoover, like Glasgow but nicer 19:00:43 So, not like Glasgow at all 19:01:10 -> move cel 1 to 60,50 -> move cel 2 to 60,50 -> photograph 19:01:18 `addquote Phantom_Hoover, like Glasgow but nicer So, not like Glasgow at all 19:01:21 846) Phantom_Hoover, like Glasgow but nicer So, not like Glasgow at all 19:01:36 Taneb, hating Glasgow is my schtick! 19:01:38 Mine! 19:01:49 `quote fight crime 19:01:53 661) No you can't fight crime in Glasgow. It's like trying to get rid of the space-time continuum. 19:02:06 all miiiiine 19:02:31 `quote glasgow 19:02:35 498) Riots in Glasgow would probably be reported as a sudden drop in crime. \ 661) No you can't fight crime in Glasgow. It's like trying to get rid of the space-time continuum. \ 846) Phantom_Hoover, like Glasgow but nicer So, not like Glasgow at all 19:04:34 so my system places and removes cels much like a TM writes on a tape, thus it is quite possibly turing complete except obviously theres been no details of what the FSA consists of 19:05:01 no wait 19:05:03 i forgot 19:05:12 ive been addressing the individual cels.. 19:05:23 but although they could have infinite addresses 19:06:43 oh well.. it matters not 19:12:28 -!- azaq23 has joined. 19:13:47 each cell of the "tape" would have 3 elements X x Y x Drawing, all set to 0 by default 19:15:49 the z-order could simply be the order of the cels on the tape 19:15:55 Glasgow? Did they invent GHC? 19:17:48 yes 19:18:40 They 19:21:12 so for this picture, http://0.tqn.com/d/webclipart/1/5/Q/p/4/Chair-on-beach.jpg my tape encoding would be something like ...[blank][blank]^[background][umbrella][chair][blank][blank]... 19:22:09 and it would draw the cells from the tapehead rightwards until it got to the last non-blank 19:23:28 ;_; i'm insane and my parents only had 2 children. what a legacy 19:24:54 i guess i'm reinventing the display list rather awkwardly 19:26:45 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: see you after few weeks). 19:26:56 -!- oonbotti has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:27:06 actually i think i'm onto something here 19:37:25 -!- nortti has joined. 19:42:40 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 13.0.1/20120614114901]). 19:49:12 "His family members include his parents[...], and his sister" -- WP article on Christopher Paolini. 19:50:50 but not his brother, that black sheep. 19:50:58 lol 19:50:59 I think the alternative would be more disturbing 19:51:10 i just made my instant coffee 19:51:25 Christopher Paolini was birthed from the infinite flux of chaos. 19:51:39 itidus21, you need to record it or something, it doesn't work as text. 19:51:52 hmm 19:52:29 you mean like, saying it in an unsettling voice on youtube? 19:52:42 Yes. 19:52:47 That is precisely what I mean. 19:53:01 only a try-hard would do that 19:53:09 also wear a darth vader suit 19:54:02 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 19:54:06 yay. I finaly got to see google TM using opera mobile 19:54:11 i don't have such a suit, but i could point yonder in a distinguished manner. 19:58:56 -!- variable has joined. 20:03:29 TM? 20:03:36 TM! 20:04:06 (tm) 20:04:47 i wonder if alan turing might make it onto epic rap battles of history after this google drawing attention to him 20:05:25 or maybe i would not pay much attention 20:05:34 i dont often pay attention to google celebrations 20:07:57 ion: You know, Google(TM). 20:11:22 Wait peter serafinowicz is doing an iama 20:11:40 Internet ask me anything? 20:12:01 ion: turing machine 20:13:10 -!- const has changed nick to constant. 20:13:40 Ah, that. 20:13:51 What’s special about it when using Opera Mobile? 20:15:12 he doesn't have any other way of viewing it 20:16:10 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:16:48 One of the messages in my fortune file is this: **DO NOT REMOVE THIS MESSAGE FROM THIS FORTUNE FILE** 20:18:01 ? 20:18:14 I don't have fortune 20:19:05 Use mine if you want to 20:19:35 echo fortune | nc zzo38computer.cjb.net 70 20:19:52 not bad 20:19:54 In some systems you may need echo fortune | nc -q -1 zzo38computer.cjb.net 70 20:20:11 what does it do? 20:20:19 What does what do? 20:20:29 -q -1 20:21:05 In the system I have needed it on, at least, it prevents the client from closing the connection. 20:21:17 So the connection will only be closed by the server. 20:28:28 You might or might not find on your system that it requires -q -1 and if it does, it will be required for all gopher and headerless HTTP 20:33:29 Does LLVM have any commands for making a self-modifying code? 20:47:02 -!- nortti- has joined. 20:48:43 why would you want to produce self-modifying code? 20:49:54 get out 20:50:00 now 20:50:25 why? 20:50:47 You can't see why one would want to produce self-modifying code? 20:50:51 In an esolang channel? 20:51:58 there are many non-esoteric uses for self-modifying code as well 20:52:06 the Linux kernel has like 12 kinds of self-modifying code 20:52:38 for esolang yes but self modifying code in compiled c programs - no 20:52:52 zzo38 did not say C, he said LLVM 20:53:14 llvm is just compiled c "everyone knows that" "come on" 20:53:48 if you build a Linux kernel for SMP x86 and then boot it on a uniprocessor, it will rewrite the code to remove all the LOCK prefixes 20:54:15 if you boot this kernel on a SMP system, and then hot-unplug all but one of the processors, it will do this dynamically (and will undo it if you hotplug another processor) 20:55:04 Actually LLVM has some features that C doesn't, but also lacks a few features which C has (such as unions). 20:55:17 likewise it will rewrite the code at boot according to available CPU features (e.g. choosing between CPUID and MFENCE for serialization) 20:55:47 and will rewrite certain instructions to be hypervisor calls when booted under paravirtualization 20:56:44 Linux also uses SMC for tracepoints, verbosity setting, etc 20:57:43 Perhaps there should be some metadata to tell it to make a global variable belong to an instruction, and can be told read/write/both lock on that ownership 20:58:46 Or no locks if you want no locks on the ownership 21:00:54 llvm is just compiled c "everyone knows that" "come on" 21:00:58 monqy: no, llvm is better than c 21:01:01 monqy: haven't you even LISTENED to zzo38 21:01:14 kmc: that LOCK thing is cool 21:01:17 kmc: @ will do stuff like that! 21:01:40 These metadata to make a global variable belong to an instruction would probably be ignored on a Harvard architecture though, unless it has ways to deal with it anyways 21:01:43 elliott: c improves when compiled, clearly 21:02:04 So this would be one kind of self-modifying code 21:04:10 The instruction that the global variable belongs to, might potentially run faster than it otherwise would, and possibly make the executable a few bytes smaller 21:06:54 I love how TV Tropes is steadily lobotomising itself by purging any examples for anything even vaguely controversial. 21:07:22 what do you mean? 21:07:54 The most obvious one that comes to mind is that all Mary Sue-related tropes have had their examples completely removed. 21:08:03 Which is pages upon pages of content. 21:08:31 ... 21:08:59 Phantom_Hoover: ... So, what, they're trying to be 'legit' or something? 21:09:01 I mean, it wasn't particularly /good/ content, and a lot of it was an argumentative mess, but there's a certain pleasure in reading it. 21:09:03 pikhq_, apparently. 21:09:15 Still waiting for them to introduce notability criteria. 21:09:37 I think LLVM now even supports the feature of Pascal to specify the valid range of a variable 21:09:38 -!- nooga_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 21:11:28 what would it mean for a variable to belong to an instruction? 21:12:04 It can only be used as an opcode to that instruction. 21:12:18 kmc: It means the value of the variable is a literal operand to that instruction. 21:12:42 (That is, if the instruction is reading the variable) 21:12:44 ah, Linux has (or had) that too 21:13:10 the API is like a global variable but (on some platforms) the variable reads are immediate loads, and the variable writes modify that code 21:13:46 Isn't TVTropes ran mostly by Americans? 21:13:48 Yes that is what I mean 21:13:56 It isn't really a big surprise they're trying to get rid of "controversy" 21:13:56 I mean 21:14:00 America censors music CDs 21:14:03 To avoid "controversy" 21:14:05 wtf did you expect 21:14:10 I also loved it when they changed Crowning Moment of Awesome to... Moment of Awesome. 21:14:44 Lumpio-, I'm going to assume you're kidding because my hate pool is running low. 21:14:49 Lumpio-: that's a ridiculous comparison 21:15:01 It's just an example. 21:15:14 Showing a nipple is worse than murder. 21:15:20 In their books. 21:15:28 by "they" you mean all 300 million Americans, yes? 21:15:48 I mean the culture they've created (and by extension all the cultures negatively affected by it) 21:16:26 Lumpio-, oh, they also purged more or less every page they decided was 'porn'. 21:16:37 But of course. 21:16:45 Lumpio-: who's censoring music CDs? 21:16:49 This extended to Lolita until saner minds shouted them down. 21:17:00 If something has sexual content in it it's just "porn". Of no value to any decent gentleman. 21:17:16 Having a work of fiction with both sexual content *and* a good, intriguing story is unheard of over there. 21:17:22 no it's not 21:17:30 Lumpio-: The only censorship in music CDs is from Walmart refusing to sell uncensored music. 21:17:30 fuck off 21:17:48 And how big is wal-mart again? 21:17:53 It's pretty huge IIRC 21:17:54 Ginormous. 21:17:57 right, a private company puts a warning sticker on a CD (and still sells it) and then another private company refuses to sell that CD in their stores 21:17:59 And somehow I doubt they're the only ones. 21:18:02 and other companies do sell it 21:18:05 Lumpio-, I'm guessing that you have never, say, heard of Game of Thrones? 21:18:08 "American retailer Best Buy only carries uncensored albums in their physical stores" 21:18:10 The warning sticker is bad enough 21:18:11 *uncensored* 21:18:23 The fact that you must label them as "uncensored" is ridiculous 21:18:56 Oh wait, sorry, in that scene with all the topless whores some of them had one breast covered up. 21:18:59 CENSORSHIP 21:19:01 i agree that the stickers are silly but to call them "censorship" is a bit much 21:19:03 If it were a company, it'd be one of the world's largest economies... 21:19:11 Phantom_Hoover: So it has clearly visible unambiguous nipples? 21:19:24 Anyways: as far as I know, Walmart's the only company that actually refuses uncensored music. 21:19:26 ...yes? 21:19:33 Nice 21:19:44 Clearly visible nipples are an "at least once an episode" thing. 21:19:45 It must be a pioneering work then 21:19:49 Lumpio-: the thing is, I would have agreed with you if you just said "American attitudes towards sex and profanity are ridiculous" 21:19:50 ...no? 21:20:00 but you came on way too strong and said ridiculous things yourself 21:20:05 and basically destroyed your credibility 21:20:06 But of course. 21:20:09 That is how I roll. 21:20:09 Maybe you should actually learn about things before going on crusades. 21:20:09 AMERIKKKA AM I RITE 21:20:15 Yes 21:20:18 U S OF FUCKING A 21:20:26 NAZIMERIKKKOMMUNISTA 21:20:37 Phantom_Hoover: Did the crusaders really "learn" or "think" before going on theirs? No. 21:20:47 Why should I! 21:20:54 Well yes, actually, they did. 21:20:59 hooray for trolls 21:21:03 Not rationally 21:21:17 Sure? 21:21:38 kmc, I'm not sure he is a troll, although that would be better. 21:21:45 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving"). 21:21:54 Oh look what you did now. 21:21:59 also even if TVTropes is run by Americans, i highly doubt it's run by the segment of American society which has a huge stick up its ass about sex and profanity 21:22:11 which isn't really that many of us 21:22:17 they are just loud and try to impose their views on everyone else 21:22:22 kmc, well, it is. 21:22:31 At least, the top echelons of moderators. 21:22:56 odd 21:23:38 TbH initially it was because Google pulled their ads from the site because of some of the more risque content *cough*fetishfuel*cough* but when they started deleting stuff like Lolita and Naughty Tentacles it went well beyond reasonable. 21:24:26 "We no longer collect examples of fetish fuel. We did so for long enough to establish that literally everything is someone's fetish fuel, and that some few individuals are quite willing to go on about theirs at length. The topic seems to want to get out of Family Friendly territory too easily for TV Tropes, so we spun off another wiki for it: Fetish Fuel Wiki." 21:24:29 It is because of Google? 21:24:47 that seems pretty reasonable 21:24:54 So who decides what's "fetish fuel" or not 21:25:04 dude it was a specific article 21:25:05 Perhaps everything is fetish fuel 21:25:13 If one of the mods had a raging foot fetish would any articles involving feet be banned? 21:25:18 no 21:25:20 kmc, yeah, that was reasonable enough. 21:25:22 you completely misunderstand 21:25:24 also you're an idiot 21:25:27 good luck everyone 21:25:28 -!- kmc has left. 21:25:32 dammit 21:25:33 Lumpio-: No, but any articles involving hand would be banned. 21:25:37 i was talking to you you idiot 21:25:44 is parting a "thing" now 21:25:53 it's the hip new thing 21:25:54 i want to be cool too !! 21:25:57 -!- Phantom_Hoover has left ("Leaving"). 21:26:01 -!- monqy has left. 21:27:35 -!- dbane has joined. 21:28:36 I'm apparently an idiot 21:28:37 so yeah 21:28:39 -!- Lumpio- has left. 21:29:28 If I leave the channel, it'll stop being cool 21:29:41 Do you like to stop being cool, or not? 21:31:47 Taneb: why? 21:31:56 That's how it works 21:32:08 zzo38, I don't really care. Fate conspires to keep me uncool 21:32:15 I'm destiny's anti-hipster 21:32:29 I only do things after they're cool 21:33:58 Sorry 21:34:10 parting is hard 21:39:55 I know. I have to leave this channel for few weeks 21:40:27 nortti-, my bouncer will still be here thoug 21:51:16 -!- john_metcalf has quit (Quit: http://retroprogramming.com). 21:54:34 He'll stop anyone without an invite coming in 21:56:20 who? 21:56:38 -!- pikhq has joined. 21:58:13 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 22:06:18 Your bouncer 22:10:29 I don't think so 22:10:41 (it's a pun) 22:15:16 https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?hl=en&tab=ww#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=define:bouncer&oq=define:bouncer&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_l=hp.3...6222.6222.1.6424.1.1.0.0.0.0.52.52.1.1.0...0.0.QGwSZnmncyE&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=21405353d8475aae&biw=1366&bih=682 22:23:24 http://i.imgur.com/tfawq.gif 22:28:20 Goodnight 22:28:22 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:36:56 wow does Wine have a lot of dependencies 22:37:01 I suppose in retrospect that wasn't really surprising 22:51:32 -!- john_metcalf has joined. 22:51:45 hi john 22:52:26 Hi :-) 22:52:32 chudoin? 22:54:58 http://pics.kuvaton.com/kuvei/windows_evolution.jpeg 22:56:05 i don't need to speak deutsche to know what that troll is thinking 22:56:27 gut=good 22:56:34 scheisse = shite 22:56:36 :D 22:56:52 humm... there seems to be a pattern 22:57:01 well 22:57:05 first MS releases a gut Windows, then a scheisse 22:57:11 then gut, then scheisse 22:57:13 i dont think win95 was particularly shit 22:57:14 and so on.. 22:57:44 yeah theres some artistic license taken 22:58:17 they left out win2k 22:58:46 but i like the pic 22:59:04 Windows 2K was never touted as a consumer OS. 22:59:16 hi gregor 22:59:17 If you're going to complain that they left it out, they also left out NT 3 and 4. 22:59:23 is egobot umlboxed yet? 22:59:29 X_X 22:59:32 Is that really so vital? 22:59:41 no, i'm just asking 22:59:45 aha saved by the egobot 22:59:48 Well, it's not. I have other things to do. 22:59:56 okie dokie artichokie 23:00:06 not saved 23:00:30 im glad to hear that. everyone knows win 8 will be crap. 23:01:00 Who won the war of 1812? 23:01:11 russia 23:01:13 :P 23:01:15 the best possible outcome would be that windows vs linux is like encarta vs wikipedia 23:01:37 no, actually it was the u.s. 23:01:40 encarta? 23:02:24 yeah it was a commercial encyclopedia.. apparently MS bought some encyclopedias and stuck them together on a cd 23:02:59 It was semipopular before Wikipedia. 23:07:17 hmm.. i can go a day without producing any more cynicism 23:07:23 no reason why not 23:13:07 -!- Patashu has joined. 23:15:35 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 23:18:13 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 23:22:19 or i can sleep 23:29:17 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: see ya after few weeks). 23:31:27 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to dog. 23:35:07 -!- dog has changed nick to copumpkin. 23:56:21 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.