< 1340582417 279392 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1340582714 381403 :augur!~augur@c-69-250-16-8.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1340583640 477471 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1340584969 570873 :nooga!~nooga@ip-46-250-173-30.ip.maverick.com.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1340585930 392341 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently in D&D 5E, the square root of 2 is now 1 < 1340586122 465226 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I don't like 4E and 5E. I play 3.5E but I prefer to make up the Icosahedral RPG instead, which has many differences and some similarities too. < 1340586316 740422 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-147-4.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Not that the rules for diagonal movement have ever made much sense. < 1340586348 109342 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :gopher://zzo38computer.cjb.net:70/0phlog*c_dnd.icosahedral-rpg-i A round is grouped into six segments (although spells may locally adjust the rules of the game temporarily), there is partial ordering on multimanas, it never uses a grid with movable figures on it, etc < 1340586624 624756 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know maybe some things you prefer and others you dislike, but, whatever it is < 1340586744 170484 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: It is? < 1340587026 129837 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am shocked, shocked to find out that zzo38 prefers an obscure RPG which is played over Gopher < 1340587062 855059 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1340587117 769428 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is not played over Gopher! It is not played by computer at all. < 1340587274 937628 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here is a part of the rules I have typed: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/icosahedral/icoruma/ (Some day I may rewrite Icoruma in C or Haskell instead of PHP; I may also rewrite the TeX macro files or perhaps do typesetting directly with Haskell (using the "dvi-processing" package).) < 1340587303 5297 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who told you the game was played by computer? < 1340587380 836387 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ChanServ < 1340587450 786987 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ChanServ? < 1340587460 2879 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1340587465 432871 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're best buddies < 1340587470 877394 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :she tells me everything < 1340587522 658694 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it is wrong. Tell Freenode or whoever made up a channel that includes a message on ChanServ tell you that, that it is wrong. < 1340587647 701554 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was surprised at all the "clichés" in Casablanca that were actually introduced there. < 1340587664 550763 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like tolkien < 1340587668 779644 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :which clichés? < 1340587684 679273 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, perhaps not clichés. < 1340587693 816066 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Things like "i am shocked, shocked" < 1340587709 706118 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :A lot of phrases I recognized but didn't think about. < 1340587716 98321 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1340587857 108166 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :However I have not played Icosahedral RPG because not even completed enough rules. So I play D&D 3.5E without miniature figures or computer, but I use computer to record the character sheets and story text. I made up my character's name using a program I have written on TI-92 calculator, it came up "Iuckqlwviv Kjugobe" < 1340587908 53903 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwigybo < 1340587973 664613 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :After I write enough rules, I want Wizards of the Coast to publish the same rules under their own name such as "Advanced Version Dungeons&Dragons 7.4" or something while not messing up the license or anything else like that, but they can keep the money, and I do not require attribution under any use of this system. < 1340588307 730331 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/recording/level20.tex (the include file is in the same directory) < 1340588402 751893 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some of the campaign rules which are standard in Icosahedral RPG, I use in D&D 3.5e as well such as the "penalized resurrection" rule and the "superstitious alignments" rule. < 1340588429 420610 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you decide which files to serve via http vs gopher < 1340588529 537075 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did not always have a gopher service available, so any file that was HTTP is still there except the root page of HTTP, which is now empty. Nevertheless all the files are meant for direct download other than directory listings in HTTP and menus in gopher. < 1340588550 955159 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1340588616 947749 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But still I am using Apache for HTTP so it does support headerless HTTP properly as well, so both the gopher and HTTP files can be easily copied using netcat. < 1340588633 587207 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(If you don't have netcat, your computer is no good.) < 1340588767 811362 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu PRIVMSG #esoteric :i prefer socat < 1340588818 983504 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, use socat. < 1340589539 133355 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i will write and compile a custom C program using Berkeley sockets for each file i wish to download from you < 1340589897 509958 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will implement a sockets library for each file i wish to download from zzo38. < 1340590321 410622 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 JOIN :#esoteric < 1340592296 382254 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin NICK :BarackObama < 1340592350 397725 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1340592477 989615 :BarackObama!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin NICK :copumpkin < 1340592484 420209 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 JOIN :#esoteric < 1340593261 545222 :augur!~augur@c-69-250-16-8.hsd1.md.comcast.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1340594651 304051 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ion: You need a separate library for each file? Netcat should be good enough, but you can do that if you want to < 1340594664 157821 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1340594721 726709 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Better would be just write one program that can work with any file < 1340594729 846710 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-34-140-48.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1340594960 21390 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-147-4.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1340595072 247 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-146-236.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1340595263 598639 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-34-140-48.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1340595348 303626 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-34-146-88.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1340595535 448002 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-146-236.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1340596312 302421 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1340596471 824327 :pikhq_!~pikhq@70-56-231-50.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1340596506 58936 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-34-146-88.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1340598487 625188 :asiekierka_!~asiekierk@178235038077.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1340598733 400201 :MDude!~fyrc@67.232.231.162 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1340600519 516578 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1340600754 606601 :asiekierka_!~asiekierk@178235038077.elblag.vectranet.pl QUIT :Quit: Wychodzi < 1340602498 961388 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1340602606 465090 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1340602656 565724 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1340602661 452961 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1340604607 664453 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1340605842 482791 :john_metcalf!~digital_w@87.115.178.251 QUIT :Quit: john_metcalf < 1340606405 761854 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1340606623 5505 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :morning < 1340606767 916376 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: you don't want money? < 1340606862 996318 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: For what? If I sell something, then yes I would like to get paid. But at this time I am not selling anything. < 1340606863 323841 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm kind of ambivalent about money < 1340606903 133082 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm waiting to die in an accident so i can say to myself.. wheres your money now? < 1340606923 925332 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :How can you say anything to yourself if you are dead? < 1340606935 58504 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, maybe just before i die < 1340606988 567817 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, there are normalization forms for unicode... < 1340607005 532945 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the trouble is that until you die, money saves you from pain < 1340607051 98485 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it puts food in your stomach.. it gets your tooth ache healed.. it gives you a warm bed < 1340607073 902227 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :right so nothing matters because life is finite < 1340607094 189429 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you should try religion < 1340607097 205455 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well everyone is systematically cut-throat about money < 1340607125 548252 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :theres no room to really relax in society < 1340607131 604614 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :an irrational solution to an irrational problem < 1340607137 414039 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes there is < 1340607143 230147 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm pretty relaxed < 1340607148 936893 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :then again i don't have much money. < 1340607158 126774 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, nobody proved that reincarnation doesn't happen. Nor did anybody prove that it does happen. < 1340607164 998704 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If there is some religion you like, and/or have your own ideas about religious stuff and philosophy < 1340607168 172960 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I guess religion might be worth a try? < 1340607195 3910 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :no that's not an acceptable reason < 1340607199 262208 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1340607200 435305 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's stupid < 1340607246 299179 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree that is not an acceptable reason. < 1340607248 953659 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: non-physical things shouldn't be paid for? < 1340607250 215415 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I would like some serious research to be done on topics like reincarnation and out of body experience. From what I understand there is a lack of credible research on those topics. < 1340607282 145836 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: there's lack of credible research that confirms that it works < 1340607288 216552 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: i don't like the actuality of dealing with other humans... they're always infinitely worse than expected < 1340607302 999371 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, I don't really know of any research debunking it either though < 1340607307 825988 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :no you're mistaken humans are nice guys < 1340607309 720409 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok not always < 1340607312 955345 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: well me neither. < 1340607327 664478 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Humans are not always nice guys. < 1340607356 848800 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess not, but most are < 1340607371 795660 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: deep down they are nice, but the necessities of life seems to draw out daily acidity < 1340607372 195854 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, besides I have memories of out of body experiences from when I was young. Like seeing myself from outside when I was like 4 years old (and not in a mirror, it was from above and behind me). < 1340607375 203558 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think so. Unless, you mean a different threshold. < 1340607379 491688 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :how? no clue < 1340607393 508202 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: that's normal < 1340607411 153197 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i had this dream that i was flying the other night < 1340607417 156005 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, indeed, but how can those memories arise? Do out of body experiences exist? If not how can it be explained < 1340607432 684801 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :How many people have dream of flying? I don't. < 1340607447 793475 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :they can be explained by the fact a healthy human brain can show itself pretty much anything. < 1340607469 90800 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: well theres some ads on tv in australia which demonstrate that bosses will regularly ask employees to do dangerous things < 1340607493 43292 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :does that make them bad guys < 1340607502 431098 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe < 1340607504 115630 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're just killing for money < 1340607506 34281 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and, there was someone on some morning show once talking about how _in reality_ people will often do what their boss tells them regardless of how dangerous it is < 1340607507 571637 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it depends some things < 1340607532 550339 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and, [i can extend this by saying] we cover this little fact up by calling it choice < 1340607533 19367 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's normal to kill for money, that means the society is bad for enabling you to benefit from that and not punishing you. < 1340607550 719050 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :also i'm not being very serious. < 1340607552 831221 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so long as we call it choice then it's ok < 1340607567 444382 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, true, but then again I have been told by my parents that the situation I remember from an out of body perspective happened (I had fallen down some stairs and my parents were checking me for any bruises, and I remember observing that from above and behind) < 1340607580 438464 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whether it's your choice to join the military depends on who is asking :P < 1340607584 737117 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :so possibly a dream, but then maybe not? < 1340607587 848043 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :who knows < 1340607618 475896 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean like, if they conscript you and draft you then locally they're sure to say it's not a choice < 1340607628 615259 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the people you are invading are sure to say it is your choice < 1340607639 290838 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm, you don't have to dream to show yourself lies. < 1340607676 306251 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :calling something a choice in this sense is about attributing responsibility to the individual < 1340607743 2616 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, i don't think people are assholes by choice anyway.. i think it's at least as much to do with circumstances as it is to do with choice < 1340607759 42942 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :true. < 1340607770 336667 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i want to open some leeway to change that view another time :D < 1340607815 506741 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i forget why i started up on this < 1340607826 483831 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't even remember where we are < 1340607829 827299 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right irc < 1340607830 936408 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1340607863 682584 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :applying what i just said to real life can be ultra-controversial though < 1340607878 134466 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: i have had out-of-body experiences too < 1340607900 939511 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wasn't even that young < 1340607932 884493 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have a set of delusions which revolve around generalizing that people are assholes < 1340607943 431280 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's difficult to shake them < 1340607967 4545 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i seem to have an infinite supply of trust in people's goodness < 1340607974 245312 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, right, and they might be lies made up by your brain, but then again there might be something more to it. < 1340607986 353746 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and as far as I know there hasn't been much research on that topic < 1340607989 896306 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: there isn't though. < 1340607997 902838 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, how do you know? < 1340608045 146313 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the dream i hate the most is being back at work < 1340608047 149573 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :everyone has had an out-of-body experience, but no one has ever, even as a party trick afaik, used that to see things beyond his actual vision. < 1340608099 757323 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: but this quantum stuff is set to change the world right? < 1340608115 743221 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^quantum stuff being all things related to quantum mechanics < 1340608143 533112 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't care about quantum stuff, my computer is fast enough < 1340608173 961752 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, hm I have distinct memories of that in my case. Seeing some medical supplies on top of a shelf near the ceiling that I couldn't possibly have seen at that age. Though I didn't think of verifying it when I was 4, so, who knows... < 1340608211 161759 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, perhaps no one ever happened to verify one of these things. < 1340608239 675043 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are many other ridiculous religious beliefs that there's plenty of "proof" for. < 1340608250 757949 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my "event" was when i had a dream about a swarm of bees < 1340608251 300003 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :why are you so hung up on this one < 1340608253 202367 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is why there should be some actual research on the topic. < 1340608263 972228 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't care about quantum stuff, due to the speed of your computer? It is not only about speed. < 1340608264 896737 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the next day, at the carwash... we got hit by a swarm of bees < 1340608265 734057 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps this was way vivider than i could ever imagine < 1340608276 626983 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, several minutes worth of bees flying past < 1340608279 969002 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, because you are dismissing it out of hand? < 1340608285 894887 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^maybe several seconds < 1340608318 284381 :nooga!~nooga@ip-46-250-173-30.ip.maverick.com.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1340608367 920533 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: yes, because i believe in physics, not in a universe built on top of human life stories. out of body experiences have no evolutionary purpose, and no physical explanation. they are just an interesting misinterpretation of your own memory. < 1340608542 694764 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :as a psychological question it is of course very interesting. < 1340608575 422363 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :What you just said /sounds/ like you believe we basically know everything there is to know about physics at this point. We obviously don't though: we are missing an established quantum gravity theory for example. Sure there are some candidates (such as string theory) but there hasn't been any good experimental evidence of that one yet. < 1340608592 494201 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Given how much attention the psychological side of it has gotten -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out_of_body#Studies_of_OBEs -- it's a bit strange they haven't happened to notice the paranormal properties of it. < 1340608603 578803 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes that is likely that they are based on misunderstanding your own memory. Possibly also remember dream sometimes, can involve like that, is one possible reason to call them precognitive. < 1340608633 127600 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that's not what i believe < 1340608651 855217 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes also physics is good but incomplete and I think could never be complete but we should try anyways < 1340608692 832738 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :how much we know about physics is completely irrelevant, it is still clear there's no mechanism to do magic simple enough that it would have evolved in humans WITH NO FUCKING PURPOSE. < 1340608694 977604 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is also possible that body experience, dream, etc, may be based on multiple factors there are many things we do not know so we cannot discount all of the possibilities! < 1340608701 945850 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: well when people try to systematically explain the unknown then things go wrong < 1340608720 430237 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: I have an otherwise sensible-seeming friend who's a God-believer because of a *really* lame miracle happened. (It was something on the level of thinking about something and then that thing happened the very next day.) < 1340608734 947688 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/friend/acquaintance/ < 1340608750 146896 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm there are those that claim they can create an out-of-body experience by their own will. An obvious test would be to place some items in a locked room next to a person who claims to have this ability and ask them to describe those items. Has anyone done such a study? < 1340608756 174743 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like the world at large is all too happy to sell hope in the form of astrological readings < 1340608779 628637 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: "Remote viewing" has been tested quite many times, yes. < 1340608787 140718 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, and the result was? < 1340608797 194608 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It didn't work. Wouldn't you have heard about it if it did? < 1340608805 916944 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :"well when people try to systematically explain the unknown then things go wrong" do you mean science| < 1340608806 797134 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1340608810 800702 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only study of the unknown < 1340608811 216796 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, right, that seems conclusive enough. < 1340608812 413335 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also by US government-funded research, the sensibility of which people have been miffed about, I think. < 1340608825 762229 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can see through it though.. i think what happens is that once someone realises that astrology is lies.. it occurs to them "this is a good way to lie" < 1340608836 921449 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so they go on propagating the lie < 1340608843 308555 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :See the "History" chapter of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remote_viewing < 1340608854 948760 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: you really needed that o_O < 1340608856 919328 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1340608859 529996 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seem to recall Randi has tested a couple, too. < 1340608870 281026 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, needed what? < 1340608875 207553 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :a test < 1340608888 393690 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or it could be a ponzi hierarchy of lies < 1340608896 644644 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, I don't get your point? < 1340608903 752178 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's that the only reason these things are tested is that stupid people would finally shut up. < 1340608918 988705 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :believing that the person with more mysterious views than yours holds the secret < 1340608925 450895 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow my tolerance of religion is low today < 1340608972 48125 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, I would have needed a test to believe it was true as well. < 1340608975 685740 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :if that is what you mean < 1340608978 895292 :pikhq_!~pikhq@70-56-231-50.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: One needn't understand physics perfectly to believe the following: Since the beginning, not one unusual thing has happened. :) < 1340608989 876489 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_, hah :) < 1340609001 376628 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :some people can't be convinced by any amount of evidence < 1340609001 575428 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :To do science properly, you also have to properly control the experiments too. There is some scholarly reports about quantum psychic experiment too. Assuming (for the argument) that this experiment is done correctly, I would think it involves relativity too as well as the relation between quantum and relativity. < 1340609032 956468 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :And what do you consider "unusual"? < 1340609042 70715 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: of course you would need a test for that, it would be a million times more surprising than the earth suddenly exploding. < 1340609048 36174 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i find it extraordinarily difficult to explain just what it is i believe < 1340609054 957507 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, I believe you refer to fundamentalists. < 1340609088 966001 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i believe that, a point of view can be a thing of beauty < 1340609110 741952 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a thing to not be dismissed < 1340609130 714160 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :an artifact of the human mind, just as the footprint is an artifact of the foot < 1340609150 256505 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course fundamentalism happens on all sides. Just look at how hard it was to convince geologists about plate tectonics back when that was the new theory. < 1340609174 24789 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :How likely is it for the Earth to explode? Scientific evidence shows many things such as physics, and that psychics are fake and that the Sun is really large and so on. Science is the best we have, but, science is not perfect!! Mathematics is perfect! < 1340609184 379589 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :! < 1340609191 570518 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that in and of itself, the actuality of a point of view existing in a consciousness < 1340609195 986284 :pikhq_!~pikhq@70-56-231-50.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: Some points of view do not correspond to the state of reality, as far as we can tell what it is. This, IMO, is a problem. < 1340609213 506901 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: it's very likely. < 1340609213 705665 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but why does it have to correspond? >:) < 1340609232 59895 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :suppose we alleviate the constraint that it has to correspond < 1340609237 368397 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :gtg < 1340609258 725612 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :with this line of thought you gain insight into my insanity < 1340609259 962884 :pikhq_!~pikhq@70-56-231-50.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: If it does not correspond, then your actions have very *unintended* consequences. < 1340609267 766741 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sometimes there can be multiple points of view that still work, and sometimes you cannot really say one is correct or incorrect, and in some cases it isn't, so that it is. < 1340609278 852256 :pikhq_!~pikhq@70-56-231-50.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :People are bad enough decision makers without the crippling that is points of view that don't work. < 1340609303 853960 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if one ceases to make decisions while maintaining a view which doesn't correspond with reality? < 1340609317 206559 :pikhq_!~pikhq@70-56-231-50.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then I shall call you a rock. < 1340609319 370842 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sometimes some point of view fail to work. < 1340609328 452185 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sometimes some point of view is simply wrong. < 1340609355 413759 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: well yeah.. an oracle is needed at such times < 1340609359 210340 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric : :-P < 1340609367 515664 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sometimes it is really a matter of opinion or a matter of what else corresponds with your frame of reference. < 1340609391 61273 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, that is a decision you just made (to not make any further decision). So in order to not make decisions while maintaining that point of view you have to decide to maintain that point of view after you decided to stop making decisions which sounds like a contradiction to me. < 1340609423 603377 :pikhq_!~pikhq@70-56-231-50.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :True, there is also the fact that deciding to not make decisions is itself a decision. < 1340609436 452030 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in this line of thought, sometimes i don't know whether it is best to say "hi" or "hey" or "hello" < 1340609437 824128 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_, which is what I just said < 1340609444 244456 :pikhq_!~pikhq@70-56-231-50.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I was merely agreeing. < 1340609447 376067 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right < 1340609462 777836 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought perhaps my wording was confusing. (I think it was actually) < 1340609465 16624 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so one can consult an oracle to make such a decision < 1340609551 891174 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: but honestly, i am trying to learn to think properly < 1340609585 389579 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_, I guess the situation can be resolved by deciding to maintain that view /and/ deciding to stop making further decisions at the same time, possibly on the lines of "I will maintain view X and stop making decisions after a point 1 minute into the future" < 1340609585 822022 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i don't want to give up my creative zest either.. best of both worlds is ideal < 1340609586 261343 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Properly"? < 1340609612 637914 :pikhq_!~pikhq@70-56-231-50.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I think we might call such a person a 'Boddhisatva'. < 1340609625 55349 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_, now you lost me < 1340609643 440749 :pikhq_!~pikhq@70-56-231-50.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Mostly irrelevant joke that might not actually make sense. < 1340609653 957596 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah how is that Buddhist terminology related to this? < 1340609668 86526 :pikhq_!~pikhq@70-56-231-50.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Presumably 'in a way that produces points of view that correspond to reality as best as can be' < 1340609671 826552 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: well this is straying into buddhist territory probably < 1340609691 421135 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: OK < 1340609748 560925 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least that religion is one of the less insane ones. I don't know of any other religion that encourages critical thinking for a start. < 1340609749 215583 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in any case, it's better to base decisions on logic rather than on biases :D < 1340609752 923000 :pikhq_!~pikhq@70-56-231-50.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: A Boddhisatva is someone who has attained enlightenment, and freed his mind of desire. < 1340609770 261925 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok well not logic < 1340609776 974143 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh < 1340609778 870260 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_, yeah. Not sure how that relates to stopping making decisions still. < 1340609779 68847 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Buddhism is one kind of religion and is not such bad ideas. < 1340609791 75202 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Critical thinking is important regardless, though. < 1340609796 646711 :pikhq_!~pikhq@70-56-231-50.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: See, didn't make much sense. < 1340609803 737785 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1340609813 295713 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it purports to support critical thinking, but that can also catch people with their guard down < 1340609842 563358 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1340609854 123361 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :religions are more or less only as good as the humans who represent them < 1340609863 901911 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then on the other hand, not advocating critical thinking is worse. < 1340609882 64929 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :No! They are as good as they are. < 1340609885 757499 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there is no good solution to the issue you mentioned, that I can think of at least. < 1340609912 670363 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which may be better or worse than representatives depending on the philosophy. < 1340610253 571163 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :its been too long since i had a mentor of any sort < 1340610293 898728 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess it means i have to start studying things on my own < 1340610302 509973 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is what it means < 1340610340 798698 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes you should learn to study things by your own < 1340610356 750771 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess on freenode, everyone is a mentor in a way < 1340610439 543495 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, we try < 1340610515 969735 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know exactly what it means that word.. but i find that in my chat career i have encountered people obviously brimming with knowledge < 1340610551 447495 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also don't know completely < 1340610553 190621 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i think the more people you meet like that the more you start to realize that others may well be smarter than you... or a lot smarter than you < 1340610564 865359 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is why we must learn (including myself) < 1340610574 365136 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or kicking you around like a football smarter than you < 1340610617 293583 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes there are other people, smarter, at different thing, than other people, many people they can understand these things better than I can but I learn and I think of it myself so sometimes can think of the thing that the other people have missed, too < 1340610654 514735 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially mathematics, you can think of things independently from the others, and I do too. < 1340610687 958729 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like category theory too. < 1340610692 678078 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think there is a fallacy that everyones knowledge equals out. < 1340610734 696347 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but infact those who apply themselves to learning or experiencing, or have more opportunities to do so, are sure to have richer knowledges < 1340610766 968495 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there is something to be said for the way an unlearned person can get on with his day without being weighed down by analysis < 1340610771 689476 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes that is the case, I believe you. < 1340610792 689568 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am not the smartest person in the world. < 1340610879 794127 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i do think there is still a case for the everyone is equally wise in some unique way < 1340610887 740984 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's not a very strong case < 1340610902 467387 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what would happen if zzo38 was the smartest person in the world < 1340610944 530916 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes there is both cases both ways < 1340610955 545569 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it depends < 1340610965 686669 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yesterday when my net was down for a few hours, i went into windows control panel and changed to an extra large mouse pointer and mouse trails < 1340610970 85651 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, maybe he is and we just don't recognize it due to everyone else being too stupid? < 1340610970 990266 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now i think it looks awesome < 1340610977 45116 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't want to turn it off < 1340611017 378125 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: maybe < 1340611065 875056 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Vorpal says that you are mistaken, you *are* the smartest person in the world. Start acting like it :) < 1340611086 137855 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1340611106 654383 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: I think you are wrong because if I am the smartest person in the world then why do you think I am mistaken? < 1340611106 853241 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :then again, it might be smart to be modest and not acknowledge that you are the smartest person in the world < 1340611126 548308 :pikhq_!~pikhq@70-56-231-50.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dunning-Kruger effect says the smartest man in the world is unconvinced of that. < 1340611135 888598 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: maybe you're just not smart enough to figure out that you are the smartest person in the world? < 1340611142 344644 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Many things I don't know that is why I am asking these kind of questions. < 1340611183 228934 :pikhq_!~pikhq@70-56-231-50.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(everyone focuses on the bit that people who know jack overestimate their abilities, nobody remembers that people who are actually experts underestimate *their* abilities) < 1340611218 256344 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose that is a possibility too. < 1340611240 702283 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: perhaps this is due to people rarely having competitions of their abilities < 1340611250 919219 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_, I wonder what that says about Stephen Wolfram... < 1340611300 36196 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :he is bald.. i suspect i will eventually be bald < 1340611307 80266 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(looking on wikipedia) < 1340611498 450886 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one thing that i don't like much about theory is the way that theory is so self-contained < 1340611510 189912 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1340611522 396922 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well white papers lead to more white papers < 1340611526 13862 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: looks like that's not part of dunning-kruger as described on wikipedia, that sounds more like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stages_of_competence < 1340611529 456035 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :calculations lead to more calculations < 1340611529 726150 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think about mathematics including category theory, I read thing, I try working out things on paper and by computer, and I will ask a question too. Mathematics is of interest to me. Do you like mathematics? < 1340611536 243980 :pikhq_!~pikhq@70-56-231-50.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Curse my memory. < 1340611542 849654 :pikhq_!~pikhq@70-56-231-50.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, don't. < 1340611557 562079 :pikhq_!~pikhq@70-56-231-50.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's cursed enough, being contained in unreliable thinking-meats. < 1340611596 432009 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess i mean theory is a closed system.. but i don't know what closed truely means < 1340611763 814272 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1340611883 289182 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :. < 1340611884 894204 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, to me, the level of geek(which is a good thing) involved in some work or hobby depends on how far removed it is from utilitarianism and entertainment < 1340611892 66346 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote i don't get how people are afraid of parachute jumping but they routinely drive a car in fucking traffic < 1340611901 333936 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :847) i don't get how people are afraid of parachute jumping but they routinely drive a car in fucking traffic < 1340611940 631418 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think there is a degree of asceticism in not being interested in graphics or gamepads when interacting with computer < 1340612005 303446 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but especially the part that from the geeks point of view it is not asceticism at all, and that the alternative is just silly < 1340612105 606020 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i speak of people who prefer a MUD to a WoW, a command line to a GUI < 1340612147 205924 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :people who prefer emacs and vim over microsoft word and open office < 1340612236 453972 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am simply unable to see things that way < 1340612244 852966 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least to me and many other people, yes, I prefer vi and TeX over Microsoft Word, prefer MUD to WoW and command-line to GUI mostly. < 1340612257 860546 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this isn't meant as offense.. < 1340612284 323108 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : Vorpal: A Boddhisatva is someone who has attained enlightenment, and freed his mind of desire. <-- _and_ chosen not to join nirvana yet in other to help others. < 1340612305 191915 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1340612338 802255 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise they're just a general enlightened person, or arahant. < 1340612385 439969 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: At least you appear to understand that better than I do, as far as I can tell. < 1340612399 763930 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also.. prefer to use trigonometry to prove things about topology rather than use them to aim bullets in a video game < 1340612513 937611 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1340612520 809985 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric : :-D < 1340612567 328363 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I did look it up I can see how to make exponents of categories. But is it possible to use that to make a monad from monads on the base and exponent? < 1340612568 525269 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION actually looks this up and sees it's not as simple < 1340612585 407568 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :um the boddhisattva stuff that is < 1340612593 560977 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: no idea < 1340612633 680379 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the difficulty probably begins in the lack of a precise meaning of nirvana < 1340612637 489917 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the wise don't care < 1340612656 166755 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the people like me who care about things like graphics and guis < 1340612666 816879 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :always wanna ask "what is nirvana?" < 1340612722 277802 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they want to extrapolate buddhism from a definition of nirvana, which is simply not possible < 1340612731 190595 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : i think there is a degree of asceticism in not being interested in graphics or gamepads when interacting with computer <-- screw gamepads, I want joysticks < 1340612766 381079 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: At least I do know how to make the monad from monads on the categories when you make the sum and product, without looking it up on Wikipedia, partially due to your suggestions too but of course I have to think of it by myself too < 1340612814 318177 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also do not know if mathematicians have any other names for what I have called Finalize monad and Initialize comonad. < 1340612883 310282 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: on a hunch, since X^2 ~ X x X, it seems like you might want a monad on X in X^Y; although maybe you need another structure on Y, perhaps a comonad if you think of the analogy to haskell Y -> X < 1340612908 573861 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :religions aren't really pure.. < 1340612931 320032 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're more actual < 1340612959 285583 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: Well, yes. They are not really pure. John Dee wanted to make it more pure, I think. < 1340613022 451095 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1340613028 581897 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no "normal" religious person < 1340613040 321379 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: Yes < 1340613061 793832 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't make general statements about them :P < 1340613066 640287 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1340613071 533958 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you could, it would be fascism < 1340613146 527442 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Do you know of other mathematical names for Finalize monad and Initialize comonad? If there aren't any, then we should make up the mathematical notation for them. < 1340613147 75091 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the texts are always open to multiple interpretations. < 1340613180 340540 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: i don't know much of anything about monads outside Set (and Hask) < 1340613191 117895 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one can argue the text was authored by divine inspiration, in which case the human who writes it may not know the correct form of interpretation < 1340613217 231981 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: but they're too simple not to be well known. < 1340613219 681988 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, if the human does claim to know the correct interpretation, well all such humans have long passed < 1340613229 688619 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: Yes that is the case (that the texts are always open to multiple interpretations). That may even be deliberate by their authors or whatever, possibly, at least sometimes. < 1340613264 515720 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and... no matter how many iterations a conversation has.. theres no guarantee of only having one interpretation < 1340613275 378458 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Finalize was the monad where the functor sends everything to a terminal object, right? < 1340613308 378345 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Yes they are simple so I would think they would be well known and someone would have invented a mathematical notation for them by now, but we cannot be completely sure. And, yes, Finalize is the monad where the endofunctor sends everything to a final object. (If there is more than one final object, there is a Finalize monad for each one) < 1340613351 912332 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this interpretation stuff also plagues philosophy < 1340613369 714242 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :plagues could be positively replaced with inspires < 1340613495 427829 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And then, Initialize comonad is simply the dual of the Finalize monad; i.e. the endofunctor sends everything to the initial object.) < 1340613686 542326 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if apples are plentiful and provide sustinance, then it is not necessary to analyze the apple < 1340613751 540328 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Would you know from these now? < 1340613752 632817 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think that what probably happens is that while searching for answers to some other problem, the apple gets analyzed so it can be searched < 1340613806 371746 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't this called the Const monad in haskell... < 1340613843 322455 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is it Proxy < 1340613855 299871 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the same way i think colonization works < 1340613863 361331 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Also, how useful are these monad and comonads? Yes it is Finalize the same as Proxy < 1340613870 241490 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :people on an island don't need to be colonized < 1340613896 306538 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but some external force is searching for resources < 1340613901 792489 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I mean not only Haskell, but mathematics in general. < 1340613941 359471 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: i don't know. i have never read in depth about examples of monads in general category theory < 1340613968 261071 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know they all come from adjunctions. < 1340613981 770530 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes I read that on Wikipedia too < 1340614525 248112 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and wikipedia doesn't seem to have any example list < 1340614576 26788 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :although i would guess you could find the adjunction easily... the other category is presumably the trivial one with one object and its identity morphism only < 1340614611 360582 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :so L maps to that category, and R maps back to a final object in the original one < 1340614656 893589 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that's _one_ adjunction, i have a hunch there's essentially only one for this monad < 1340614754 790840 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or wait, maybe you can get others by using any category with a final object < 1340614768 727141 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or initial, not sure which way that would go < 1340615212 820989 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :r.i.p. lonesome george < 1340615267 809200 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1340615281 340690 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the galapagos turtle < 1340615290 325601 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :last of his species < 1340615345 936755 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :subspecies < 1340615979 281519 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I have some idea of a semigroupoid where, for any two objects X and Y, if there is at least one morphism from X to Y, then there are no morphisms from Y to X. Nothing can be both this and a category except for the empty category. < 1340616008 492925 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is it called? < 1340616018 617587 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :semigroupoid, what's that again < 1340616038 919122 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Category without identity < 1340616056 124053 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, so this should hold even when X = Y? < 1340616084 675362 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that is why it is never a category except empty category. < 1340616113 431803 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :any partial order gives one just by removing the identities, i think < 1340616167 455440 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any strict partial order gives one, I think < 1340616174 300216 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had the idea to call this "anticategory" < 1340617489 221015 :neutrino2000!~neutrino@ppp-188-174-120-172.dynamic.mnet-online.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1340618110 411780 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1340619166 504699 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1340620871 613359 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1340620903 554448 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1340621300 217016 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1340621478 977931 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i tried to make my polyglot an AVR program also < 1340621488 364582 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it seems all interesting instructions on AVR have the high bit set < 1340621917 492719 :AnotherTest!~Test@94-224-16-206.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1340621942 668877 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@178235038077.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1340621961 871370 :AnotherTest!~Test@94-224-16-206.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1340622000 390695 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1340622873 9321 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: That's ridiculous! < 1340622882 273724 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I made an instruction set, I'd only use the lower 7 bits. < 1340622909 49349 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd leave the upper half for individual countries to standardize. < 1340623091 944587 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes sense < 1340623137 9631 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd like to see an instruction set using UTF-8 < 1340623177 198278 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be pretty nice really < 1340623239 449549 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1340623276 327976 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: haha < 1340624060 436997 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1340624103 504536 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :z/Architecture instruction set has instructions for converting to/from UTF-8 (with UTF-16 or Unicode codepoints at the other end); does that count as "an instruction set using UTF-8"? < 1340624168 394196 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 JOIN :#esoteric < 1340624344 303521 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1340624357 194821 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean by "Unicode codepoints"? a native machine integer with the codepoint value? < 1340624384 696720 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what I think, yes. The instruction listing I Googled was somewhat terse. < 1340624409 424849 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't consider an instruction set to "use" UTF-8 unless it can do things like strlen, strwidth, indexofnthcharacter with UTF-8 strings. < 1340624418 344527 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not that any instruction set SHOULD do those things. < 1340624419 87902 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1340624426 133278 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I think kmc meant the actual instructions were encoded with UTF-8. < 1340624427 464797 :DH____!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 JOIN :#esoteric < 1340624443 164576 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :E.g. 110xxxxx 10xxxxxx < 1340624462 429951 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, that's... bizarre X-D < 1340624468 302848 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would be nice for debugging I suppose. < 1340624496 295436 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What, because it would be self-synchronizing? < 1340624533 879509 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, don't need some complexicon of instruction formats like x86, and not as restrictive as RISC *shrugs* < 1340624558 157589 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :MORE LIKE RISCtrictive !! < 1340624559 145711 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would also prevent jumping into the middle of an instruction < 1340624566 963955 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :without forcing a fixed-size encoding < 1340624586 67253 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmm, indeed, and that's not even debugging! < 1340624591 863228 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, per se < 1340624616 1362 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Do any of the adjustable big/little endian architectures also adjust instructions' endianness? < 1340624625 851522 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable length encoding is nice because some instructions are more common than others < 1340624627 751223 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION imagines each page starting with a BOM. < 1340624633 148253 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_- < 1340624647 110993 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: That's why I store my instructions gzipped in memory! < 1340624652 490744 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think some variants of PPC actually have a pagetable bit for endianness < 1340624669 406626 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's... horrifying. < 1340624769 36710 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could imagine x86 having a segment descriptor field for that. I mean, they already have a 16/32 bit in. < 1340624831 244920 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :UTF-8 is big-endian, I guess? < 1340624895 786369 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :More significant bits come in the earlier bytes, yes. < 1340624913 639179 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I guess we need to come up with UTF-8-LE, for completeness. < 1340624952 649183 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, and get that thing popular. Too long have the UTF-8 folks ridiculed UTF-16 users for endianness problems. < 1340625139 293915 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, and we'd need our own BOM. < 1340625388 360260 :nortti!jhaverin@evo.paivola.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1340625846 894132 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, let's see. If you put the regular BOM U+FFEF into regular UTF-8, that's 1110|1111 10|111111 10|101111 (EFBFAF); interpreted as bizarro-UTF-8 that would recompose back to U+BFFF; that's some random Hangul 뿿. Okay, maybe it's not such a good BOM, yes. < 1340626081 603163 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: It's FEFF/FFFE < 1340626152 133015 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :efbbbf < 1340626177 739100 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or something. < 1340626344 816151 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :But U+FEFF is zero-width no-break space. < 1340626464 944237 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's when it's not at the beginning. < 1340626483 602259 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see. < 1340626502 823145 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I must've misread FEFF as FFEF. < 1340626885 133991 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, in that case, U+FEFF => regular-UTF8 1110|1111 10|111011 10|111111 (efbbbf), and then reinterpreted as weirdo-UTF8 gives U+FFBF which is not allocated (though it's in the middle of halfwidth Hangul letters). Correspondingly, U+FEFF in weirdo-UTF8 would be 1110|1111 10|101111 10|111111 and interpreted as regular UTF-8 that's U+FBFF, which is... ARABIC LETTER FARSI YEH MEDIAL FORM. Aw, I ... < 1340626891 135246 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :... was hoping the usual U+FEFF, encoded in either way, would turn into something unused when read the wrong way. < 1340627152 165629 :iconmaster!~rooms@cpe-74-79-18-174.twcny.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1340627201 344909 :nortti!jhaverin@evo.paivola.fi QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1340627430 281017 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would it be fair to say that Io is like a higher-level Picolisp, in terms of amount of introspection? < 1340627456 801665 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Erm, well, "higher-level" not really in that terms but in terms of being a higher-level language in general) < 1340627618 311565 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I just got my new phone < 1340627628 334423 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like it < 1340627630 881614 :nortti!jhaverin@evo.paivola.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1340627748 387859 :dbane!~user@c176-34-62-134.ob.nfrinternet.com PART #esoteric :"leaving" < 1340628261 432588 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it an Android device, you enemy of freedom? < 1340628451 404881 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, yes, because modern nokia sucks < 1340628452 538823 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :sadly < 1340628461 67039 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, it is a Samsung Galaxy S3 < 1340628501 903794 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, well, all Nokia phones are also enemies of freedom, that's not the question. < 1340628525 872503 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, is there a phone that isn't an enemy of freedom? < 1340628543 961394 :nortti!jhaverin@evo.paivola.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :openmoko neo freerunner < 1340628549 81932 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah true < 1340628557 523301 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti, that doesn't have a quad core CPU though < 1340628561 115256 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :this phone does < 1340628587 642303 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Openmoko does get pretty close. < 1340628592 988963 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm unlike nexus it seems google earth is not preinstalled here < 1340628598 751929 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder why < 1340628660 394043 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : there we go < 1340628728 441195 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :the GPS seems to get a fix indoors in a matter of seconds (and I turned off the option to use WLAN when testing that) < 1340628733 302707 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah openmoko < 1340628740 26576 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :cause i want a phone the size of a car battery, that doesn't actually work < 1340628741 598472 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not like even Freerunner has user-pokeable GSM parts inside. < 1340628756 801077 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's free!!!!!!!!111 < 1340628776 428199 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1340628802 405820 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also they had a binary-blob GPS driver too at some point, unless I misremember. That might've been fixed before the FreeRunner days. < 1340628840 791329 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :You've got some pretty small car batteries in wherever-you-are, though. < 1340628847 571260 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't ordered a memory card for it yet, because apparently a 64 GB Class 10 MicroSD has only just been released. So it isn't available in web stores in Sweden until the middle of next month < 1340628896 358924 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw the unlock screen is not the usual android 4 "drag a circle near the bottom of the screen. It is some fancy "nature-inspired" water ripple thingy < 1340628922 671694 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm how do I set a single colour bg in android... < 1340628961 782826 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seem to recall Stallman did say that Android was a tiny tiny bit less bad than Apple/Microsoft products. But not by much. < 1340628972 160003 :iconmaster!~rooms@cpe-74-79-18-174.twcny.res.rr.com QUIT :Quit: Rooms • iPhone IRC Client • http://www.roomsapp.mobi < 1340628983 998750 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :He doesn't recommend phones anyway. < 1340629006 823777 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's a transcript from a GPLv3 conference: < 1340629008 353822 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"[a mobile phone rings] < 1340629009 426763 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you are carrying a portable surveillance and tracking device, please turn it off. They have already tracked you here. They already know that you are listening to me, so there is no need for you to keep telling them that you are still here. And if they want to listen to what I am saying, we're going to publish the video recording anyway. They don't need to turn on your portable surveillance ... < 1340629012 207051 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh. I need a phone though < 1340629014 360004 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :My impression from a talk by Stallman was that there exists some subset of Android that is acceptable, and people in FSF use phones that adhere to that subset, but that most commercial phones are a TRAP. < 1340629015 822698 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :... device to do it." < 1340629077 37547 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I refuse to have a cell phone because they are tracking and surveillance devices. They all enable the phone system to record where the user goes, and many (perhaps all) can be remotely converted into listening devices." -- "RMS lifestyle" < 1340629111 716217 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The magazine for the morally conscious programmer. < 1340629133 529712 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Articles include: "Interviews: the optimal time to clean one's toenails?" < 1340629152 382359 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Houses: who needs them?" < 1340629187 397778 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :RMS has at various times lived in a house < 1340629195 239896 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact I'm told he lived a couple houses down from where I live now < 1340629224 935084 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"And by the way, these portable tracking devices emit signals for tracking purposes even when they are apparently switched off; the only way to stop them is to take out all the batteries." < 1340629237 510014 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's right, THEY are always watching. < 1340629275 643412 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is no more dangerous delusion than the delusion that somebody cares. < 1340629275 981746 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure The Man is terribly interested in what Stallman is up to. < 1340629293 219929 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, although usually they're just watching the inside of your pocket. < 1340629679 536944 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :All in all, at least it's not an iDevice. To quote, < 1340629695 590727 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Steve Jobs, the pioneer of the computer as a jail made cool, designed to sever fools from their freedom, has died. -- But we all deserve the end of Jobs' malign influence on people's computing." < 1340629716 132314 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Putting the "fun" back to "funeral", he is. < 1340629784 382220 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :quoting RMS is *always* trolling by proxy < 1340629800 541710 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I sneakily cut off the required-disclaimer about how even Jobs didn't deserve to die. < 1340629802 768678 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :As before, I don't think quoting stupid things is trolling by proxy < 1340629821 507620 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(That's why the latter sentence starts with "but".) < 1340629957 989183 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Frankly I'm astonished RMS was able to muster any kind of praise for Android. < 1340629991 774459 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Android is non-GNU/Linux ZOMG ^^ < 1340630036 993217 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you don't mind some quote-mining and cut-at-comma-ing, RMS says: "Android is a major step towards an ethical, user-controlled, free-software portable phone, --" < 1340630050 302214 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The "--" is "but there is a long way to go.") < 1340630068 202882 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably that long way to go is making everything on it GPL. < 1340630165 883314 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, the taint of the dirty Apache license is one problem. < 1340630256 435562 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's another? < 1340630289 378202 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: they're fine with non-GNU projects which adhere to their philosophy... < 1340630312 929988 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not releasing the sources for Android 3.0, 3.1; having binary firmware that has enough power to be malicious; manufactures locking things down. < 1340630317 303008 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those are some others. < 1340630325 337322 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone has any idea how to import vCalendar files into android... < 1340630335 49362 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dumped them from my nokia < 1340630353 772543 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, does anyone outside GNU adhere to their philosophy? < 1340630355 954720 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The phone network firmware comes pre-installed. If all it did was sit there and run, we could regard it as equivalent to a circuit. When we insist that the software in a computing device must be free, we can overlook pre-installed firmware that will never be upgraded, because it makes no difference to the user that it's a program rather than a circuit. < 1340630360 891908 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately, in this case it would be a malicious circuit. Malicious features are unacceptable no matter how they are implemented. < 1340630363 915333 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :On most Android phones, this firmware has so much control that it could turn the product into a listening device. On some, it controls the microphone. On some, it can take full control of the main computer, through shared memory, and can thus override or replace whatever free software you have installed. With some models it is possible to exercise remote control of this firmware, and thus of ... < 1340630369 889174 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :... the phone's computer, through the phone radio network." < 1340630401 743284 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also since it can be upgraded, it must be open. < 1340630418 264155 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(FreeRunner, I think, also fails this particular test.) < 1340630439 135577 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Waitwaitwait, does he consider the circuit that actually controls the microphone 'malicious'? < 1340630490 271012 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the "circuitry-equivalent firmware". < 1340630500 253940 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Putting these points together, we can tolerate non-free phone network firmware provided new versions of it won't be loaded, it can't take control of the main computer, and it can only communicate when and as the free operating system chooses to let it communicate. In other words, it has to be equivalent to circuitry, and that circuitry must not be malicious. There is no obstacle to building ... < 1340630506 267798 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :... an Android phone which has these characteristics, but we don't know of any." < 1340630599 545423 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, but when he's complaining that it being *possible* for it to turn the phone into a listening device then I don't see how he can tolerate the concept of a phone at all. < 1340630667 989885 :Patashu!Patashu@c27-253-127-153.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au NICK :Patashu[Zzz] < 1340630710 460377 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1340630721 101185 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aren't there modifyable circuits? < 1340630740 246533 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And as such, would the circuitry be allowed to be non-free in such a case? < 1340630822 129056 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Well, y'see, the phone hardware must be such that any firmware blob can't possibly be malicious. (I'm not sure how it would be possible to do that for the GSM modem side, since it kind of has to be responsible for sending the contents of your phone call to the network, and could therefore be e.g. broadcasting that to Them too.) < 1340630833 469468 :neutrino2000!~neutrino@ppp-188-174-120-172.dynamic.mnet-online.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :you cannot patent physical circuits, you can also not patent schematics < 1340630840 258371 :neutrino2000!~neutrino@ppp-188-174-120-172.dynamic.mnet-online.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can have copyright of schematic diagrams < 1340630850 443070 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1340631153 678246 :nooga!~nooga@ip-46-250-173-30.ip.maverick.com.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1340631612 308730 :pikhq_!~pikhq@70-56-231-50.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: You should note that Stallman does not own a phone currently. < 1340631631 600370 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that's for sure. < 1340631694 466043 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: what do you mean by "modifyable circuits" < 1340631782 709198 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :neutrino2000: really, you can't patent a circuit? < 1340631804 142773 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought the archtypal original purpose of patents was to patent a mechanical machine < 1340631808 773588 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :patenting a circuit seems very similar < 1340631884 924896 :pikhq_!~pikhq@70-56-231-50.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Strictly speaking, you don't patent a specific machine but rather a method of functioning *of* a machine. Otherwise you could get around a patent by reading a patent and designing a similar machine. ;) < 1340631899 301787 :neutrino2000!~neutrino@ppp-188-174-120-172.dynamic.mnet-online.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, it's well known, that's why people e.g. pot circuits in resin < 1340631913 587909 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it is well known perhaps you could furnish a link for me < 1340631925 284951 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are valid reasons why someone would go for trade secret over patent, even if something is patentable < 1340631926 411163 :neutrino2000!~neutrino@ppp-188-174-120-172.dynamic.mnet-online.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would but i am working < 1340631929 240026 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok then < 1340631956 412915 :pikhq_!~pikhq@70-56-231-50.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd help with citations, but I'm not *100%* sure that's the case, and besides which don't have any. < 1340631996 479898 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you patent something, your competitors find out how it works < 1340632009 982575 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if they are disallowed from producing the same thing, that information might help them in other ways < 1340632048 237336 :AnotherTest!~Test@94-224-16-206.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you go for a trade secret, someone might (re)discover it and patent it < 1340632074 437596 :neutrino2000!~neutrino@ppp-188-174-120-172.dynamic.mnet-online.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you then say you had prior art so they can't patent it < 1340632082 594255 :pikhq_!~pikhq@70-56-231-50.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :neutrino2000: In theory. < 1340632098 271109 :pikhq_!~pikhq@70-56-231-50.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :In practice, a *prior patent* doesn't necessarily mean you don't get a patent. < 1340632116 576027 :pikhq_!~pikhq@70-56-231-50.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hence, for example, the double patents on LZW. < 1340632128 672572 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :or they might just infringe your patent and fight you in court < 1340632141 541406 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if your competitors have better lawyers than reverse engineers, you should go for secrecy :) < 1340632273 791503 :stanley!~stanley@unaffiliated/stanley JOIN :#esoteric < 1340632289 238563 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Whoever invents or discovers any new and useful process, machine, manufacture, or composition of matter, or any new and useful improvement thereof, may obtain a patent therefor, subject to the conditions and requirements of this title." That's a citation. Admittedly, it's kinda vague. < 1340632361 235598 :AnotherTest!~Test@94-224-16-206.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :"subject to the conditions and requirements of this title"; indeed < 1340632371 708709 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those are kinda long to quote. < 1340632378 397958 :AnotherTest!~Test@94-224-16-206.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thought so. < 1340632398 653133 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's the non-obviousness requirement, for example. < 1340632428 973639 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It mustn't be obvious to the mythical "person having ordinary skill in the art". < 1340632458 141431 :AnotherTest!~Test@94-224-16-206.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do they provide a definition of "ordinary skill"? < 1340632466 614530 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: there are none of those in programming, you know! < 1340632477 172165 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's all idiot code monkeys and ninja rockstar hackers < 1340632486 350149 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :nobody has ordinary skill ;) < 1340632559 870777 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. Though it continues with a very confusingly worded exception on "biotechnological processes". < 1340632577 492406 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"-- a biotechnological process using or resulting in a composition of matter that is novel under section 102 and nonobvious under subsection (a) of this section shall be considered nonobvious if [long list]" < 1340632593 172994 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :They do define what a "biotechnological process" is. < 1340632627 64082 :AnotherTest!~Test@94-224-16-206.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that like your brains thinking about technology? < 1340632648 796218 :AnotherTest!~Test@94-224-16-206.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does sound like that. < 1340632665 344105 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it's: "(A) a process of genetically altering or otherwise inducing a single- or multi-celled organism to- (i) express an exogenous nucleotide sequence, (ii) inhibit, eliminate, augment, or alter expression of an endogenous nucleotide sequence, or (iii) express a specific physiological characteristic not naturally associated with said organism; (B) cell fusion procedures yielding a cell ... < 1340632671 848574 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :... line that expresses a specific protein, such as a monoclonal antibody; and (C) a method of using a product produced by a process defined by subparagraph (A) or (B), or a combination of subparagraphs (A) and (B)." < 1340632719 593318 :AnotherTest!~Test@94-224-16-206.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh so it has to be related to medical technology. < 1340632737 96375 :AnotherTest!~Test@94-224-16-206.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :(medical, in a wide sense) < 1340632759 834385 :AnotherTest!~Test@94-224-16-206.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like §1(A) < 1340632765 291033 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, those.... thingies that you can modify < 1340632777 854295 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :FPGA? < 1340632790 174928 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I think so < 1340632809 377272 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :FPGA have firmware basically < 1340632827 789563 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the "gates" in a FPGA are actually look-up tables programmed by some RAM which is loaded at boot (often from flash, either on-chip or off-chip) < 1340632893 192188 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would believe it again counts as circuitry as long as you don't upgrade the firmware ever. (If it's a separate system that keeps reconfiguring the FPGA from time to time, I think that could also still be non-free as long as it's not touched ever and functions as a black box.) < 1340632991 299950 :derdon!~derdon@pD9E1C9F1.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1340633000 997035 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1340633435 103014 :nooga!~nooga@ip-46-250-173-30.ip.maverick.com.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1340633746 330653 :jix!~jix@jixco.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1340634152 108118 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1340635933 81635 :jix!~jix@jixco.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1340638593 680439 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :strange setting under sync options on the phone: Under the google account there is a checkbox named "sync internet", it is in the list of stuff like "sync contacts", "sync email" and so on < 1340638597 646800 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :gmail* < 1340638620 542874 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ^ < 1340638632 720446 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably it creates a local copy of the internet < 1340638659 421835 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1340638756 150318 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbiab < 1340639266 378506 :AnotherTest!~Test@94-224-16-206.access.telenet.be QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1340639655 439101 :MDoze!~fyrc@67.232.231.162 JOIN :#esoteric < 1340639686 499517 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bookmarks, maybe? < 1340639744 879806 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm possibly < 1340639942 326544 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: don't sync the internet, it will delete everything on the internet and upload the stuff that is on your phone right now < 1340639950 683040 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, yay! < 1340639973 225249 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, they removed the debug option from earlier android versions that allowed you to disable the screen timeout while usb was attached < 1340639980 219767 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is kind of annoying < 1340640229 150285 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :An Emacs user http://horatio.naurunappula.com/screen/b1/83/b1835a1cc0efa869/0/933709.jpg < 1340640342 896863 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :ion: another emacs user: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I25UeVXrEHQ < 1340640370 644787 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :all emacs users are foot-crud eaters < 1340640659 700054 :sebbu!~sebbu@2402:1f00:2001:100::9387 JOIN :#esoteric < 1340640659 899840 :sebbu!~sebbu@2402:1f00:2001:100::9387 QUIT :Changing host < 1340640659 899958 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1340640729 788531 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :foot-quiche? < 1340641038 456469 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-2-99-87-25.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1340641043 488303 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-2-99-87-25.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello < 1340641153 225736 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if I should stay off IRC for an entire week and see what I end up doing after I get too bored to do nothing < 1340642176 953355 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1340642198 435486 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1340643103 808486 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-2-99-87-25.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Embarrassed myself a tad today at a University open day when I corrected the lecturer's Python < 1340643222 317391 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :holy shit, a talking snake! < 1340643745 327225 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, a snake! Oh, it’s a snake! < 1340643784 76793 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :badger badger badger < 1340643796 760531 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :> text . concat $ replicate 11 "badger " < 1340643798 749148 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger < 1340643809 155896 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :> fix ("badger "++) < 1340643811 365301 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : "badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badg... < 1340643921 696033 :nortti!jhaverin@evo.paivola.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul ((badger)S:^):^ < 1340643945 310566 :nortti!jhaverin@evo.paivola.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :!langs < 1340643953 91365 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bf_txtgen badger < 1340643957 168022 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​65 ++++++++++[>++++++++++>+>><<<<-]>--.-.+++.+++.--.+++++++++++++.>. [81] < 1340643962 296633 :nortti!jhaverin@evo.paivola.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :!help < 1340643962 700047 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help . < 1340643971 118350 :nortti!jhaverin@evo.paivola.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :!help languages < 1340643971 399855 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh. < 1340643991 803808 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskell is esoteric but cxx isn't? < 1340643999 368983 :nortti!jhaverin@evo.paivola.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :!underload ((badger)S:^):^ < 1340644001 178086 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :badgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerb < 1340644004 959031 :nortti!jhaverin@evo.paivola.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :!underload ((badger )S:^):^ < 1340644005 480678 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger < 1340644023 503350 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a lot of badgers < 1340644031 835284 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :the one without whitespace seemed a bit more poignant < 1340644058 825590 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :_EgoBot's poignant guide to underload < 1340644080 739058 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :_underload's poignant guide to badger < 1340644109 334765 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :honeybadger don't care < 1340644130 356785 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :from 0 to badgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadger in 24h < 1340644147 761099 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :teach yourself to badger in 24 hours for dummies < 1340644191 354523 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :only one badger in 24h? it'll take months to get to a reasonable number of badger < 1340644244 426447 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :B'Ger < 1340644341 325400 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run printf '\n' | sed -e 's/^/badger /' | sed -e 's/^/badger /' | sed -e 's/^/badger /' | sed -e 's/^/badger /' | sed -e 's/^/badger /' | sed -e 's/^/badger /' | sed -e 's/^/badger /' | sed -e 's/^/badger /' < 1340644351 341628 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger < 1340644459 684085 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :echo | sed -e ':a' -e 's/^/badger /' -e 'ta' < 1340644530 693780 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :note: kill that before it runs you out of RAM < 1340644545 42605 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's pretty slow though < 1340644548 390408 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :should i lern2sed? < 1340644566 402497 :nortti!jhaverin@evo.paivola.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1340644598 923512 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :funnier version: echo ' ' | sed -e ':a' -e 's/./badger /g' -e 'ta' < 1340644656 434220 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :with printing: echo ' ' | sed -e ':a' -e 's/./badger /g' -e 'p;ta' < 1340644899 934495 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :wee bit shorter: echo | sed -e ':a' -e 's/.\?/badger /g' -e 'p;ta' < 1340646066 230685 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do my normal headphones work to play FM radio on my new phone? On my old it required nokia's own headset, and the connector was longer than usual. How strange... < 1340646102 553286 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and I checked, it needs some headphones connected for the radio to work) < 1340646151 44238 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's because the old one had artificial limitations < 1340646168 850554 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty sure they all work on the same principle, using the headphones as the antenna < 1340646180 588150 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1340646194 814918 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, I thought it had an extra wire in it that worked as an antenna < 1340646210 734612 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway wouldn't there be issues with the length of the wire? < 1340646257 717068 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would guess that it works because FM happens to be at a frequency where it doesn't matter much how the antenna looks < 1340646267 531848 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fair enough < 1340646386 610510 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :now to figure out how to switch search engine to a custom one... < 1340646452 419443 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would they allow you to do that? < 1340646485 125331 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, well they do allow you to switch between a few (it is Android, not iOS!) but yeah I have to figure out how to switch to duckduckgo < 1340646536 107408 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :does android have a specific web-search thingy? I usually just open mini and search < 1340646572 748486 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :mini? < 1340646580 773898 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :*opera mini < 1340646592 132548 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh you have a non-smart phone < 1340646594 468185 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1340646615 298954 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it's a smart phone, it has the android and everything < 1340646619 159824 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway I can add a widget for duckduckgo from google play (previously called android market) < 1340646674 227301 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :the issue is I want it in the browser, I can just select google, bing and yahoo < 1340646714 971977 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and chrome for android beta is just as bad, except it also has ask jeeves (who the hell uses that?) < 1340646724 548979 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :there should be an easy way to create custom search engines there < 1340646725 183458 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, so yeah, looking for a way to add custom ones < 1340646750 993127 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :where? I tried the menu button and holding down and various such things < 1340646771 605326 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you tried longpressing the search field on duckduckgo? I think that's how you get the menu to do it in opera mini anyway < 1340646783 825115 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, will try that < 1340646829 458005 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :that gives me clipboard in the built in browser, will try in the chrome beta too < 1340646855 564097 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :same thing there < 1340646867 519054 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, why would you use opera mini on an android device btw? < 1340646907 926249 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: faster, downloads less crap < 1340646955 12347 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only bother with another browser when something uses too much script and client-side stuff to work well in mini < 1340646968 993766 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it saves on the bw yeah < 1340646987 156900 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :*and* if I'm sufficiently interested in the page to want to wait for everything to download < 1340647002 130241 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything is super-quick on this phone though < 1340647013 849939 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, won't hurt installing it, might be useful at some point. A mobile browser with adblock would be nice though < 1340647034 771558 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is opera mobile < 1340647044 483816 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I need a mobile irc client, any recommendations? < 1340647082 902127 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and WHY does opera mini want permissions for NFC? < 1340647105 353429 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :opera mobile is the regular browser for mobile phones (downloading everything and rendering locally on your phone), opera mini uses the proxy and server-side compression stuff < 1340647121 80040 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess because they use NFC? < 1340647144 59183 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I know what mini does, I used it before on my dumb-phone < 1340647160 518632 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :android is iffy like that though, you have to ask permission for EVERYTHING that you EVER want the application to be able to do, which ends up with everything getting every permission in the world < 1340647183 206750 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I'll try out all of opera, firefox and so on and see what I like < 1340647215 457609 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I love ICS < 1340647244 737767 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :what I don't love is that this room is a wifi white spot sometimes... < 1340647546 352232 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, according to duck duck go's site you need to sync with desktop opera mini where duckduckgo is set as a search engine to make it work on mini < 1340647550 853115 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :you had another solution? < 1340647760 530899 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks like the issue is that they're doing something retarded to their search field < 1340647780 932682 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1340647802 449346 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :going to try to reload it as desktop version in chrome < 1340647825 698982 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :works in mobile, longpress the search field and you get Add Search Engine < 1340647855 55381 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, oh so not mini? < 1340647993 897750 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@178235038077.elblag.vectranet.pl QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1340648196 634454 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay figured it out in firefox < 1340648379 832573 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok turns out. < 1340648390 563410 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :5 years to brute force brainfuck constants :) < 1340648517 104316 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, worst case since you're looking for the shortest ones? < 1340648603 109883 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1340648921 39802 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1340650520 483426 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-2-99-87-25.as13285.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1340650618 95609 :nooga!~nooga@ip-46-250-173-30.ip.maverick.com.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1340651454 40623 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1340651575 243669 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-2-99-87-25.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1340651692 962949 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION notes that the tunes.org clock is at least a few seconds late already < 1340651738 966633 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :which leads me to wonder whether my recent discovery that is was at the correct minute was simply of the "right twice a day" variety... < 1340651799 956722 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also that the codu logs are probably up again, although glogbot and glogbackup both being here isn't _quite_ reassuring. < 1340651980 836981 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's it called when you're able to divine whether a turing machine halts < 1340652313 546799 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe tourism < 1340652488 774552 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-2-99-87-25.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Magic < 1340652494 515837 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-2-99-87-25.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Turing oracle? < 1340652539 9716 :john_metcalf!~digital_w@87.115.178.251 JOIN :#esoteric < 1340652550 588890 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-2-99-87-25.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you could define a machine such that it halts if and only if a corresponding Turing machine does not, would it be turing complete? < 1340652646 943138 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :idgi < 1340652761 519960 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-2-99-87-25.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, the existence of both this machine and a Turing machine would solve the halting problem, I think < 1340652784 567046 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :for that turing machine, yes < 1340652836 555026 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but solving the halting problem of a single turing machine is trivial if you don't require a computational model to make the divination. just say no if it doesn't halt and yes if it does. < 1340652866 83215 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :or the other way around w/e < 1340653429 341912 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-153-91.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1340653453 17034 :pikhq_!~pikhq@70-56-231-50.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1340655891 382170 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-2-99-87-25.as13285.net QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1340656084 241445 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-2-99-87-25.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1340657352 342286 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, there? < 1340657417 147126 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :For some reason I suspect that you will know the answer to the question I'm about to ask. Which lossy music format is best suited for music on a phone, possibly using high end head phones to listen to it. < 1340657436 299466 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :OGG? AAC? MP3? Something else? < 1340657444 771753 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm I should check if OGG is supported. < 1340657625 422943 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1340657937 385555 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-153-91.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Ogg if available, then AAC, then MP3. (AAC first if using a non-free encoder) < 1340657967 17569 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, which encoder do you suggest? < 1340658020 980068 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-2-99-87-25.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: bed < 1340658028 18108 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :anything that doesn't cost money is okay for me. My input is .flac mostly (though it would be trivial to convert it to wav) < 1340658051 354013 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :preserving metadata would be nice < 1340658063 993972 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :though I could probably use musicbrainz to readd that < 1340658094 533515 :nooga!~nooga@ip-46-250-173-30.ip.maverick.com.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1340658175 843716 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck you mtp protocol! < 1340658194 346314 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :why did it suddenly stop working < 1340658197 457084 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :it worked a minute ago < 1340658240 233925 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh it didn't work when rythmbox was open? < 1340658313 370003 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah .ogg works < 1340658336 540392 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-153-91.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I dunno. oggenc or LAME, and I'm not too up on what good AAC encoders are out there. < 1340658349 72960 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-153-91.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just happen to know libfaac isn't that good. < 1340658362 201614 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and flac works too, though that is a waste of space < 1340658476 390949 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, parameter suggestions for oggenc? < 1340658501 677643 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :like the -q (quality) parameter < 1340658605 418806 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah the default sounds slightly off in some of the detail < 1340658647 767397 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :-q 5 sounds fine < 1340659088 522267 :nooga!~nooga@ip-46-250-173-30.ip.maverick.com.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1340659118 558405 :Frooxius|TabletP!~chatzilla@cust-101.ktknet.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1340659580 348814 :Phantom__Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1340659795 238936 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm can android scan QR codes out of box? < 1340659800 84531 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not, any good app for it? < 1340659837 626150 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :barcode scanner < 1340659863 921511 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, any ads in that app? < 1340659867 26076 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1340659878 634168 :nooga!~nooga@ip-46-250-173-30.ip.maverick.com.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1340659893 672094 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, the barcode scanner app by "ZXING TEAM"? < 1340659967 438497 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah it is open source at least < 1340660101 390697 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1340660187 847411 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1340660212 958863 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1340660226 691339 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right seems to work fine < 1340660262 70622 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :also lol this link when I clicked on a link. I installed a large set of browsers to evaluate them < 1340660265 693147 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it is rather long < 1340660498 863252 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1340660607 504135 :Nisstyre!~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1340660613 674860 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1340660738 525271 :Frooxius|TabletP!~chatzilla@cust-101.ktknet.cz QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1340660816 415874 :Frooxius|TabletP!~chatzilla@cust-101.ktknet.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1340660875 67646 :derdon!~derdon@pD9E1C9F1.dip.t-dialin.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1340660902 982598 :derdon!~derdon@pD9E1C9F1.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1340660918 693038 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1340661168 972275 :derdon!~derdon@pD9E1C9F1.dip.t-dialin.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1340662744 334811 :yorick_!~yorick@unaffiliated/yorick JOIN :#esoteric < 1340662769 111174 :yorick!~yorick@unaffiliated/yorick QUIT :Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds. < 1340662770 830904 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-153-91.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1340662792 903463 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-153-91.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1340662982 840354 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1340663253 580971 :Patashu[Zzz]!Patashu@c27-253-127-153.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au NICK :Patashu < 1340663393 77180 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1340663605 989636 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, hm I have problems with opera mini < 1340663617 5088 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't seem to play well with the multi tasking on ICS < 1340663626 537171 :MDoze!~fyrc@67.232.231.162 NICK :MDude < 1340663660 876188 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :like the start screen (with the quick links) refusing to display after the program was backgrounded for a while until I force stop it < 1340664070 654320 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1340664719 540883 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1340665080 533932 :DH____!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1340665483 392857 :augur!~augur@c-69-250-16-8.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1340665999 617502 :augur!~augur@c-69-250-16-8.hsd1.md.comcast.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1340666552 143787 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Google Goggles does QR codes and a bunch of other stuff < 1340666609 608375 :nooga!~nooga@ip-46-250-173-30.ip.maverick.com.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1340667081 401699 :Phantom__Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1340667081 642288 :rvchangue!~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1340667158 682450 :SimonRC_!~sc@fof.durge.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1340667198 439562 :augur!~augur@c-69-250-16-8.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1340667233 552634 :rvchangue!~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue JOIN :#esoteric < 1340667249 408881 :augur!~augur@c-69-250-16-8.hsd1.md.comcast.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1340667267 368914 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1340667356 400191 :Phantom__Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1340667548 672339 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1340667637 253587 :Phantom__Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1340667693 402924 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1340667800 106606 :atehwa!~atehwa@aulis.sange.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1340667818 629180 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1340667853 889484 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1340668513 428028 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 JOIN :#esoteric