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04:01:46 <zzo38> There ought to be a method of payment on internet like this: You connect to some SSH and send the amount of money you want to pay to them. The server responds with the keys to a new account consisting of that amount of money moved from the original account. You communicate this securely to the recipient, who then splits off the price from the new account and approves the transaction.
04:04:26 <zzo38> This is secure, is not susceptible to homograph attacks, is not susceptible to the merchant taking more money from you than you authorized, is not susceptible to false expiry warning messages, etc.
04:07:05 <zzo38> The recipient of the money then goes to the bank or whatever and retrieves the money using the keys to the account. They do not necessarily need their own bank account or anything like that.
04:07:41 <itidus21> zzo38: i think in practice what happens is a society collectively adapts to a payment system
04:08:12 <itidus21> weaknesses in a system get exploited and as a result of this the system gets modified
04:08:35 <itidus21> unfortunately a system with no weaknesses is very cold and sober... very 'soviet'
04:10:24 <zzo38> In the way I have specified you do not even necessarily need to connect to the same server, since they could belong to different banks, as long as those banks have an agreement between them, or possibly indirect through a number of other banks, you can make this payment. Neither the purchaser nor the merchant needs a bank account.
04:11:26 <itidus21> i always think deeper about these things
04:11:58 <zzo38> Well, yes, think about it, due to weakness that is why they would be exploited and modified but that may cause other problems, and this and that, and etc.
04:12:03 <itidus21> how much problems is there actually with these payment systems?
04:12:10 <itidus21> i mean existing payment systems
04:12:24 <zzo38> But I know no weaknesses with the system I have proposed, although there may be some.
04:12:33 <itidus21> i mean the current real world systems
04:12:58 <zzo38> itidus21: Some are the problems I have described, read what I have described above you may see.
04:13:34 <itidus21> are these problems mostly related to the internet?
04:14:23 <itidus21> for example, i have never had a bank problem
04:14:36 <itidus21> even thouhg once i gave my bank details to a mysterious woman online
04:14:57 <itidus21> she was kind for not abusing that... but i freaked out ever since
04:15:38 <zzo38> Some of them are related to the internet, I suppose.
04:16:11 <zzo38> I suggest implementing both my new system as well as the old system, and deprecating the old system.
04:16:38 <itidus21> i mean, if a person does nothing wrong, is the bank responsible to recover the money?
04:19:44 <zzo38> I don't know about those kind of laws.
04:21:23 <itidus21> Your ideas are intriguing to me, and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
04:22:05 <zzo38> I do not own a newsletter.
04:23:02 <itidus21> http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/The_Simpsons/Season_8#Mountain_of_Madness
04:27:39 <zzo38> OK, but I still do not own a newsletter.
04:34:48 <itidus21> i love the idea that a person has a newsletter
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05:42:06 <nortti> :P I am doing my programming course work in c (instead of python) on unix v7 (instead of debian)
05:43:15 <nortti> also: http://www.osnews.com/story/26114/Did_Alan_Turing_really_commit_suicide_
05:55:18 <kmc> it's funny how people say "LGBT" even when talking about things which have nothing to do with the trans part of that
05:55:35 <kmc> there is a myth that all sexual minorities are united by oppression and have the same heroes and villains
05:56:00 <kmc> actually a lot of gay people hate bisexuals, and a lot of gay and bisexual people are transphobic
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05:58:59 <kmc> maybe i just see the worst in people though
05:59:52 <pikhq> I genuinely don't get that.
06:00:09 <pikhq> Well. I know that it's the case, I just don't understand it.
06:00:29 <olsner> @tell Vorpal open a new tab (or close all open ones) and you'll get a new start page ... restarting mini will ususally resume in the state it was before closing
06:01:34 <kmc> it's a sad fact that recently oppressed people are perfectly willing to oppress others
06:01:49 <olsner> I think often "LGBT" = "all those weird people so I don't forget and accidentally offend any of them"
06:02:29 <kmc> like when the USA sent freed slaves to Liberia, and they set up basically an imitation of racist Southern society
06:02:33 <copumpkin> kmc: in some cases (racial, historically), it can even be a form of fitting in
06:02:41 <shachaf> kmc: Still-oppressed people do, too.
06:02:45 <kmc> with American ex-slaves on top and the native africans on the bottom
06:03:10 <kmc> olsner: yeah. these "community" labels are an easy way for politicians to pander
06:03:13 <copumpkin> people will think they'll fit in better if they join in on the hate on existing (other) minorities
06:03:35 <kmc> it reminds me of the assumption that anyone in the USA who has ancestors from Latin America in the past 4 generations is assumed to be a single issue voter on immigration
06:03:48 <copumpkin> there was actually a lot of tension between cape verdean immigrants and historical ex-slave black people in the US, for example
06:04:00 <copumpkin> even though to most outsiders, they were just "black people"
06:04:04 <kmc> you know, say something in spanish, mumble about immigration reform, check off the "latino community" box on your card
06:04:44 <kmc> copumpkin: in what time period?
06:06:07 <copumpkin> I think most of it was in the early-to-mid 20th century, but I've forgotten most of the details from that book
06:06:45 <copumpkin> http://www.amazon.com/Black-Identities-Immigrant-American-Realities/dp/0674007247
06:07:41 <kmc> interesting
06:08:21 <copumpkin> my favorite course in undergrad was the course on racial identity / racism in the US
06:13:59 <pikhq> Apparently I just don't understand people.
06:15:48 <olsner> I think most of racism (etc) is grounded in thinking that's supposed to keep a tribe of people together and safe from other tribes
06:16:01 <olsner> and it's basically perfectly natural for people to hate other people
06:16:48 <kmc> it's also deliberately encouraged by the ruling classes to keep the masses in control
06:17:16 <pikhq> olsner: Alas, evolution works much slower than humans.
06:18:41 <kmc> if you make the poor people fight each other according to arbitrary divisions, then they won't join forces against you
06:18:47 <olsner> well, doesn't have to be something genetic (although I suppose if there's a real biological predisposition for such thinking, that would have to be genetic)
06:19:36 <pikhq> If there's *not* a biological predisposition for it, how could it possibly survive this long?
06:19:50 <kmc> traits can be hereditary without being genetic
06:20:11 <pikhq> kmc: Yes, but non-genetic things mutate rather a lot faster...
06:23:55 <olsner> the general idea that different/unknown things are possibly dangerous (e.g. don't accept candy from strange people) is easily exploitable
06:39:47 <pikhq> Jumping back to a previous conversation state a bit... I wonder, do bisexuals often hate homosexuals?
06:40:09 <pikhq> I mean, it wouldn't make any sense, but the inverse *happens* and that makes no sense.
06:43:54 <kmc> i think declaring that you will only sleep with men, or only sleep with women, is a bit *silly*
06:43:57 <kmc> but i don't hate anyone for it
06:44:43 <pikhq> That's just a matter of you not being on one of the extremes of the Kinsey scale, isn't it? :P
06:45:42 <kmc> in that the kinsey scale is about my preferences, not my attitude towards other people's preferences
06:46:50 <olsner> but it sounds like you interpret that ("*will* only sleep with") as a declaration of intent, rather than e.g. an observation of what someone's attracted to
06:47:14 <kmc> well you can observe many things about who people are attracted to
06:47:36 <kmc> maybe i'm only attracted to redheads, but most people would not consider that a core part of my personal identity
06:47:49 <kmc> and if i dated someone with blonde hair, they wouldn't be like "oh my god, i thought he was only into redheads"
06:47:56 <kmc> though this is not entirely unheard of, either
06:48:27 <kmc> basically i think the labels make sense in the context of solidarity against political oppression
06:48:49 <zzo38> I date no-one and sleep alone.
06:49:06 <kmc> but if you have the privilege to live relatively free of that oppression, then the labels are silly
06:49:51 <pikhq> Well, yes, nobody thinks much of someone doing something that is considered *perfectly normal*.
06:50:16 <kmc> i can think of some useful consequences of cutting yourself off from 50% of the dating pool
06:50:44 <kmc> you can have friendships with people in whatever gender you've declared no interest in, without you or them worrying that you're trying to get into their pants
06:51:43 <kmc> also i imagine being bisexual and strictly monogamous is a bit more awkward than being mono-sexual (?) and strictly monogamous
06:51:50 <kmc> but the rant about monogamy is another rant ;P
06:52:46 <zzo38> Is "mono-sexual" a word? If not, then you made it up and it seems clear enough meaning
06:59:23 <kmc> as usual, these things are skewed by pop culture too
06:59:57 <kmc> if you have a gay character on TV, more likely than not, being gay is like their #1 defining characteristic and the fact around which all their behaviors and interactions revolve
07:00:08 <kmc> rather than just another character point
07:00:17 <pikhq> Yeah, that rather bothers me. A lot.
07:01:00 <zzo38> It is why you can write down another story whatever you want involving whatever you want
07:01:16 <kmc> i think that is changing, though
07:01:22 <kmc> or at least, i can think of some good counterexamples
07:01:33 <shachaf> kmc: How would you even know that?
07:02:29 <kmc> so this isn't a joke about me not owning a TV?
07:02:54 <shachaf> Oh. Nope, I didn't think about that.
07:03:35 <shachaf> It just seems to me like there are a lot of "just another character point"s that you don't even know about, or don't really notice.
07:04:15 <kmc> in The Wire there's a character who's seen in the background of a gay bar for a split second, and this is never otherwise referenced or explained
07:04:16 <pikhq> shachaf: Society being what it is, if they're not *said* to be gay, it's assumed they're straight.
07:04:35 <shachaf> pikhq: Who's being somethingist now?!
07:05:01 <pikhq> shachaf: I'm not saying this is *correct*, I'm saying this is the *prevailing assumption*.
07:05:12 <zzo38> Well, if they are not said to be left-handed and you have no evidence like that, they would be assumed to be right-handed, isn't it?
07:05:13 <shachaf> So you're calling kmc somethingist?
07:05:15 <kmc> i don't think i need to make such an assumption for my claim to work
07:05:19 <shachaf> Or just saying his statement is a tautology?
07:05:22 <olsner> I think most characters *in general* are a single trait maximized, because that makes the whole thing easier
07:05:40 <kmc> there are characters whose sexual preferences are never explored, characters with lots of heterosexual relationships, and characters with lots of homosexual relationships
07:05:41 <pikhq> olsner: Lazy writing is lazy.
07:05:46 <kmc> (and, very occasionally, characetrs with both)
07:05:50 <shachaf> olsner: That's a good point.
07:06:02 <shachaf> That's why I don't watch much television, y'know. I don't even own one, actually.
07:06:03 <zzo38> Well, I am calling you right-handed! (Even though, I do not actually know.)
07:06:13 <kmc> so i'm comparing characters whose preferences are established
07:06:28 <olsner> and, well, stereotypes are too useful to ignore
07:06:38 <kmc> of course you could say that most of the characters who are apparently straight are having awesome gay sex just off camera
07:06:42 <kmc> but that's not really how fiction works
07:07:06 <kmc> it's not a matter of assuming they're straight, it's a matter of the author telling you they're straight and you not having any evidence they're secretly bi
07:07:13 <zzo38> kmc: Really? You can write story however you want to let's try. Therefore you can say, I don't know, is it straight, gay, otherwise? We might not know for sure.
07:08:03 <pikhq> Of course, fan-fic is a magic land where everybody's sexuality is whatever you want it to be.
07:08:11 <zzo38> Try making a story where nobody knows they are homosexual for a long time, and also where nobody knows they are left-handed for a long time, and perhaps nobody knows they wear glasses either, for a while, etc
07:08:20 <pikhq> And also, males can get pregnant somehow.
07:08:57 <shachaf> You have an island with 100 people. Everyone knows everyone's "sexual preference" except their own. One day an oracle comes to the island...
07:09:03 <kmc> there's a TV trope where the apparently straight woman has a lesbian fling with an attractive guest star during sweeps week
07:09:15 <olsner> I think another part of it is that they make characters some way to make some point, and often that point is "look how modern we are, we put a gay in our show!"
07:09:20 <kmc> and then the guest star goes away and it never comes up again
07:09:25 <olsner> and then you have to make it really obvious to score the equality points
07:09:48 <kmc> olsner: yeah
07:09:53 <kmc> now i'm trying to decide if Modern Family is an example of this
07:10:00 <kmc> i mean, it's right in the name ;)
07:10:10 <zzo38> When I write a story I try to do a lot of things different than other stories, although some things might be similar than others, such as writing in English and so on.
07:10:26 <shachaf> Man, I love equality points.
07:10:36 <kmc> i mean the gay-dads characters do get reasonable three-dimensional character development, but they still have a lot of plots that are about how they're gay
07:11:25 * shachaf doesn't really get the whole idea of caring about this topic at all.
07:11:26 <pikhq> kmc: "Hooray, penis!"?
07:11:32 <kmc> omar little could kick their asses
07:11:44 <zzo38> If there are too many similar plots then try to diversify please
07:12:17 <zzo38> Such as making different kind of plots
07:12:31 <olsner> kmc: only seen a few episodes of that show, but that couple seems to be doing a fair amount of of comic relief gayness
07:12:47 <kmc> yeah, it really depends on the episode
07:12:57 <kmc> they try to use all their ensemble characters in every episode
07:13:08 <kmc> if they get a main plot, it will probably be something more interesting
07:13:16 <kmc> if they get like the C plot, it might be cheap jokes based on teh gay
07:14:11 <kmc> basing an episode on the unique experiences of gay dads raising a family is at least more thematically relevant than making a big deal out of the gayness of a character on, like, some police procedural
07:15:06 <kmc> shachaf: c.c
07:15:21 <kmc> shachaf: when you say you don't get "the whole idea of caring about this topic"
07:15:24 <kmc> which topic do you mean?
07:15:33 <pikhq> kmc: Yes, but one takes writing ability and taste, the other just requires the ability to bash out words that won't make a producer actually hate you. :)
07:16:33 <shachaf> kmc: I actually think I honestly don't watch enough television to know what you mean.
07:16:39 <shachaf> Well, not enough bad television, anyway. :-)
07:17:01 <kmc> well, the reason people care is that pop culture influences social attitudes
07:17:58 <zzo38> I like Fukumoto's manga such as Kaiji and Akagi. (I do not know if the characters are gay or anything like that; this is not relevant to the story.)
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07:21:34 <kmc> shachaf: i probably watch too much bad television :)
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07:22:11 <pikhq> I'm just good at joining complaint-fests.
07:22:25 <olsner> kmc: not that there's a whole lot of good television out there
07:22:27 <kmc> i see what you did there
07:22:36 <kmc> olsner: there is a fair amount actually
07:23:02 <pikhq> It just follows the rule that 99% of everything is shit.
07:23:06 <olsner> yes, there is Star Trek, but I've already seen that
07:23:29 <kmc> in fact the period 2000-present is considered something of a golden age of television by most TV critics
07:24:22 <kmc> in terms of shows that really push the medium to be artistically on par with film and novels
07:24:39 <pikhq> There was also a lot of shit in that period. (but, this is nothing new)
07:25:09 <kmc> most TV is still bad (most film and novels, too)
07:25:22 <zzo38> I prefer to write book, anyways
07:27:17 <kmc> oh man, the third season premiere of Louie is on Thursday
07:27:20 <kmc> that show fucking owns
07:29:33 <kmc> it's really unlike anything else on TV
07:31:21 <kmc> every week, they cut Louis C.K. a check for about $300k and he gives them what amounts to 1 - 2 short films about whatever the fuck he wants
07:32:18 <kmc> which range from hilarious comedy to authentically poignant meditations on life to just bizarre unsettling shit
07:36:31 <zzo38> Currently in ITMCK it recognizes the following commands in a channel: a ... g (notes), r (rest), n (direct note), ^ (tie), & (slur), / (auto portamento), L (song loop start), || (song loop skip), |L (song loop end), @ (instrument), @@ (key table), @u (effect table), @= (set variable), @q (quantize), @e (direct effect), o (octave), < (low octave), > (high octave),
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07:36:51 <shachaf> kmc: DId you know about Compose-.-=?
07:36:57 <shachaf> I only knew about Compose-.--.
07:37:06 * shachaf suspects the punctuation may not be helpful there.
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07:37:56 <zzo38> l (note length), K (transpose), v (volume), G (global volume), X (call user-defined macro), C (note cut setting), q (quantize), t (tempo), [ ] (repeat), I (tremor), J (arpeggio), T (tremolo), P (panning), V (vibrato), Y (panbrello), z (cancel effects).
07:38:48 <zzo38> shachaf: What compose is that?
07:39:45 <shachaf> zzo38: Compose-compose-Win-T-Ctrl-R-u-n-i-c-Enter-/-W-H-I-T-E- -C-I-R-C-L-E-Enter
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07:40:11 <shachaf> It's kind of an awkward combination.
07:40:29 <shachaf> (The worst part is you have to press them all at once.)
07:40:38 <zzo38> But there are some duplicates
07:40:49 <shachaf> That's why I have two keyboards.
07:41:23 * shachaf wonders how many people went up and double-checked that there aren't three of any letter just to prove him wrong.
07:42:02 <zzo38> There is the lowercase "i" and two of uppercase "I"
07:42:31 <shachaf> Those are different letters.
07:43:16 <zzo38> They are the same key on a standard computer keyboard.
07:43:49 <kmc> "After a man in an Elmo costume was ejected from Central Park for an obscenity-laced rant, fellow impersonators of the Sesame Street star breathed sighs of relief."
07:43:59 <kmc> you know I'm glad I still get NYC local news
07:44:12 <shachaf> Is obscenity a 5-HT_2A agonist?
07:45:19 <shachaf> I like the way JetBlue advertises their airplane-flying-points.
07:45:30 <kmc> apparently this particular Elmo had some problems with the Jews and the illegal immigrants
07:45:35 <shachaf> * Unless you don't use them.
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08:03:22 <kmc> shachaf: when do they expire actually?
08:04:21 <shachaf> kmc: After you've flown on no flights and earned no points for 12 months.
08:04:41 <shachaf> The idea seems to be that no *individual* point expires, i.e., by refreshing your pool you refresh all the points in it.
08:04:48 <shachaf> But it's still very misleading advertising.
08:05:01 <kmc> jetblue does have some very cheap fares from time to time, though
08:05:14 <kmc> so the upkeep cost is low, if you're paying attention
08:05:47 <shachaf> I suppose it's just another form of market segmentation, or something.
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08:05:58 <shachaf> I don't mind being segmented too much, I just mind being lied to. :-(
08:07:52 <shachaf> kmc: Have you seen this puzzle? http://cryp.to/address-of-riddle/
08:08:17 <shachaf> Or some variety of it. When I first heard that you could overload &, it's what I immediately thought of, but I didn't realize it was solveable.
08:10:28 <kmc> ugh, overloading operator & should be punishable by death
08:14:16 <shachaf> { T *ret; asm("mov %%rdi,%0" : "=g"(ret)); return ret; }
08:14:31 <kmc> you're winner
08:14:41 <fizzie> Also sometimes spelled "wiener".
08:15:11 <kmc> i solved it in C++ but i basically looked up the solution
08:15:18 <kmc> http://www.informit.com/guides/content.aspx?g=cplusplus&seqNum=546
08:15:28 <shachaf> I suspect I don't know C++ well enough to figure out an answer without reading about C++.
08:15:39 <shachaf> Then again, reading about C++ is the usual way I write C++ when I come across weird edge cases.
08:16:15 <kmc> yeah my thoughts exactly
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08:18:25 <kmc> the solution is pretty simple, and involves something i didn't know you could do
08:18:29 <kmc> so thachaf
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08:21:28 <shachaf> kmc: Hmm, I looked at your link and tried that and my program did something unexpected.
08:21:38 <kmc> expect the unexpected
08:22:45 <shachaf> Is this not undefined behavior or something?
08:23:00 <shachaf> Casting to char& seems mighty fishy to me.
08:23:20 <kmc> the article says it's defined
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08:23:56 <shachaf> "The C++ standard guarantees that an lvalue expression of type T1 can be cast to the type T2& if an expression of type T1* can be explicitly converted to the type T2 * using a reinterpret_cast"
08:24:03 <shachaf> Do you have that guarantee in general about foo and double and char?
08:24:52 <kmc> again, the article suggests you can
08:25:03 <shachaf> kmc: You ought to write a post about gcc inline assembly.
08:25:10 <kmc> what about it
08:25:19 <shachaf> http://www.ibiblio.org/gferg/ldp/GCC-Inline-Assembly-HOWTO.html is outdated and I have the feeling it's more confusing than it can be.
08:25:30 <kmc> i've used GCC inline assembly in a few posts
08:26:52 <kmc> i'm not sure i have much to say about it
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08:27:08 <kmc> and the realistic use cases are a bit too disjoint to just have a list of examples
08:28:29 <Deewiant> http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc/Extended-Asm.html isn't outdated
08:30:20 <fizzie> You can cast any pointer to char*, so assuming that "T1 to T2&" reinterpret_cast statement is true, that should be fine.
08:30:31 <fizzie> It looks real bad, though.
08:30:51 <fizzie> s/any pointer/any pointer to object type/ or whatever.
08:35:06 <fizzie> If you want an undefined-behaviour-but-works-for-me solution, here's one:
08:35:30 <fizzie> struct tref { T& r; tref(T& t) : r(t) {} }; tref r(obj); return *(T**)&r;
08:36:24 <fizzie> (It assumes a reference is really just a disguised pointer with the same representation.)
08:37:36 <kmc> ah very good
08:38:50 <kmc> well it also assumes something about the layout of that struct
08:39:07 <fizzie> Yes, but at least in C the first member is guaranteed to be at the same address as the struct itself.
08:39:29 <kmc> i doubt that's true in C++
08:39:36 <kmc> won't some compilers put a vtable pointer in the first field
08:39:56 <kmc> there must be some compiler which produces vtables unconditionally ;)
08:41:08 <fizzie> Well, you could struct tref { T& r; tref(T& t) : r(t) {} }; tref r(obj); T* p; memcpy(&p, (char*)&r + offsetof(tref, r), sizeof *p); return p; instead, assuming 'offsetof' still exists in C++ land.
08:41:31 <kmc> ooh, i bet offsetof is broken for members which overload operator&
08:42:21 <fizzie> The simple implementation would be, that's true.
08:42:59 <fizzie> "Because of the extended functionality of structs in C++, in this language, the use of offsetof is restricted to "POD types", which for classes, more or less corresponds to the C concept of struct (although non-derived classes with only public non-virtual member functions and with no constructor and/or destructor would also qualify as POD)." says a random reference.
08:44:02 <kmc> pod people
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08:46:35 <fizzie> Yes, it in fact does not seem to work.
08:46:38 <fizzie> tmp.cc:10: warning: invalid access to non-static data member ‘address_of(T&) [with T = foo]::tref::r’ of NULL object
08:46:41 <fizzie> tmp.cc:10: warning: (perhaps the ‘offsetof’ macro was used incorrectly)
08:48:44 <fizzie> Another too-clever-by-half version: struct tref { T& r; char c; tref(T& t) : r(t) { } }; tref r(obj); return *(T**)(&r.c - sizeof(T*));
08:48:52 <fizzie> This time it assumes no padding after the T& r.
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08:53:45 <fizzie> Okay, this is how the "struct to first member" rule survives in C++: "A pointer to a POD-struct object, suitably converted using reinterpret_cast, points to its initial member -- and vice versa. [Note: There might therefore be unnamed padding within a POD-struct object, but not at its beginning, --]"
08:55:29 <fizzie> "A POD-struct is an aggregate class that has no non-static data members of type non-POD-struct, non-POD-union (or array of such types) or reference, and has no user-declared copy assignment operator and no user-declared destructor."
08:55:47 <fizzie> Sadly, there is a reference member, so tref is not a POD-struct.
08:56:27 <fizzie> Oh well, the ref-is-a-pointer was already unambiguously undefined.
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09:00:44 <kmc> struct treif { ... }
09:04:05 <kmc> shachaf: do i get multi-lingual pun points
09:07:04 <shachaf> kmc: C/C++ *and* Objective-C/C++?
09:08:08 <kmc> C++ and Hebrew
09:08:34 <kmc> also we're talking about type punning so it's like, a meta-pun, man
09:08:38 <kmc> oh you're right
09:09:44 <kmc> wait, is this how i send bold in irssi?
09:10:04 <shachaf> well, if you were using irssi
09:10:15 <kmc> it's not wysiwyg
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09:11:18 <shachaf> kmc: That's a depressing rainbow.
09:11:26 <shachaf> Please in future for use brighter colors.
09:11:34 <itidus21> that's a bold statement to make
09:12:17 <shachaf> kmc: Bilingual puns aren't cool. You know what's cool? 2000-lingual puns.
09:12:23 <kmc> right you are
09:12:52 <kmc> > text "\0035hello"
09:13:13 <kmc> > text "\x035hello"
09:13:45 <lambdabot> No quotes match. The more you drive -- the dumber you get.
09:14:29 <shachaf> Maximal munch is the best thing, I'm told.
09:16:25 <kmc> all you can eat
09:17:14 <shachaf> Yes, itidus21. All you can eat in a month.
09:17:27 <itidus21> that would be bad for my health
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09:22:03 <kmc> i've never had KFC
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09:24:11 <itidus21> i knew there was something fishy about that comment of mine
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09:24:43 <shachaf> kmc: If you like KFC so much why don't you marry her?
09:25:15 <itidus21> oerjan: when i said it i thought.. why does "kfc pieces" sound weird to say?
09:25:22 <shachaf> I expect I'll only get myself deeper into bad-pun-debt here.
09:25:34 <kmc> oh i thought that was a joke about me growing up in the midwest
09:25:40 <kmc> but now i realize it is a joke on my IRC nick
09:25:44 <kmc> that's much more sensible
09:25:47 <oerjan> itidus21: i suggest you use the spork up in the topic
09:26:17 <oerjan> you're allowed to wash it first
09:26:18 <Vorpal> hm what is that Russian GPS equivalent called now again?
09:26:18 <lambdabot> Vorpal: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
09:26:23 <shachaf> KFC is, like, the female version of you.
09:26:30 <lambdabot> olsner said 3h 26m ago: open a new tab (or close all open ones) and you'll get a new start page ... restarting mini will ususally resume in the state it was before closing
09:26:40 <shachaf> kmc: Did you see the /dev/{zero,null} logic gate thing?
09:26:41 <kmc> Vorpal: GLONASS
09:26:53 <kmc> but actually ГЛОНАСС
09:27:00 <kmc> shachaf: no
09:27:05 <shachaf> http://www.linusakesson.net/programming/pipelogic/index.php
09:27:06 <Vorpal> kmc, stop showing off :P
09:27:11 <kmc> yes, did see
09:27:20 <kmc> Vorpal: yes, my incredible copy pasting from wikipedia skills
09:27:33 <Vorpal> anyone knows if GLONASS operates on a frequency that works better indoors than GPS?
09:27:37 <shachaf> What, you copied and pasted?
09:27:46 <shachaf> Get a Russian keyboard like the rest of us?
09:27:47 <Vorpal> my new phone supports both and it can get a fix indoors in a matter of seconds
09:27:48 <kmc> i don't have compose key codes for cyrillic
09:27:56 <itidus21> the words kfc and kmc are now ruined for me :D
09:28:02 <Vorpal> which is pretty impressive
09:28:19 <kmc> shachaf: -_-
09:28:21 <kmc> Vorpal: nice
09:28:23 <kmc> where are you?
09:28:29 <kmc> i thought glonass coverage is much better in russia
09:28:31 <kmc> ok, close enough
09:28:43 <shachaf> кмц: Ыоу дон'т хаже ацтуал кеыбоард лаыоут свитцхинг сет уп?
09:28:44 <kmc> shachaf: preved medved
09:28:54 <kmc> shachaf: reading that is painful
09:28:55 * shachaf ис цхеатинг, оф цоурсе, витх тхе пхонетиц лаыоут.
09:29:22 <Vorpal> kmc, well it must not be as attenuated by walls I guess. Which kind of sucks for me, I did my bachelor thesis on indoor positioning systems using WLAN XD
09:29:27 <oerjan> kmc: i doubt glonass is in geostationary orbit (gps certainly isn't), so why should it be better in russia?
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09:29:56 <kmc> oerjan: you have set up a false dichotomy there
09:30:07 <kmc> there are many orbits other than geostationary which cover some area better than others
09:30:21 <oerjan> well i guess straight north-south would...
09:30:23 <kmc> molniya orbits for example
09:30:30 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Molniya.jpg
09:31:11 <kmc> http://www.oxts.com/default.asp?pageRef=134
09:31:33 <fizzie> I still haven't fixed ^rainbow vs. multibyte.
09:31:46 <Vorpal> anyway, this is a wood building (with mexitegel (a Swedish product, according to wikipedia it is only known as "calcium silicate bricks" elsewhere) on the outside)
09:31:50 <oerjan> ...actually given one of my math articles, i should have suspected that. even if the article used a torus, not a sphere.
09:31:58 <kmc> actually i really like that rainbow of unicode replacement characters
09:32:01 <Vorpal> I would have to test it in a concrete building at some point too
09:32:03 <itidus21> im cheating with google translate tho
09:32:16 <fizzie> The other rainbow is made from Unicode block drawing characters.
09:32:18 <fungot> ████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████ ...too much output!
09:32:30 <kmc> needs more cat
09:32:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, how is black in that rainbow?
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09:32:49 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's the colour of magic, maybe?
09:32:52 <itidus21> ^rainbow в Советской России, водку пьет вы
09:33:10 <Vorpal> itidus21, I don't think it does multi-byte correctly
09:33:23 <itidus21> в Советской России, водку пьет вы
09:33:24 <kmc> in before shachaf says i will call someone racist
09:33:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, hey you should write an UTF-8 library in befunge!
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09:34:06 <kmc> itidus21: 8======Д
09:35:06 <fizzie> Vorpal: Been suggested. Waiting for suitable amounts of free time and/or boredom, I suppose. I can't just decode UTF-8 to Befunge cells and back (even though they're certainly wide enough) without also upping the brainfuck cell size from 8 bits.
09:35:24 <shachaf> fizzie: You should make it 16 bits.
09:35:28 <shachaf> That'll hold any Unicode character.
09:35:37 <fizzie> Though it'd at least make ISO-8859-1 work properly.
09:36:04 <Vorpal> yeah ISO-8859-1 is enough for the important Nordic languages
09:36:44 <kmc> what about ISO-3103-1980
09:36:49 <itidus21> Машина Тьюринга является мнимым машина разработана Алана Тьюринга, который выполняет вычисления.
09:37:42 <Vorpal> btw importing vCalendar 1.0 files into an android device is painful as I found out when I tried to import the calendar from my old phone. What I did was importing it into evolution, then exporting a backup of evolution and extracting the data as a iCalendar file from that backup, then import that backup
09:38:00 <itidus21> i secretly wish i knew russian
09:38:11 <kmc> itidus21: your secret is safe with me
09:38:15 <Vorpal> itidus21, no you don't. You told us, it isn't secret
09:38:35 <Vorpal> and it is in the logs now too
09:39:03 <fizzie> ISO-8859-1 lacks Š, š, Ž, ž which I think are used sometimes in loan words in Finnish/Estonian, and I think at least one of them is in one of the Sami alphabets.
09:39:40 <fizzie> Also œ, which is important for typing œrjan.
09:39:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, isn't it Örjan in proper language?
09:39:57 <itidus21> i am pretending that expressing interest in things makes me a better person
09:40:08 <fizzie> Vorpal: I would assume it's more of an ø.
09:40:20 <Vorpal> shachaf, they use that silly ø instead of the proper ö
09:40:25 <fizzie> Which of course is in latin-1, but anyway.
09:40:34 <shachaf> kmc: You should get multiple keyboard layouts set up!
09:40:47 <shachaf> Then you can just press Shift-Shift to switch layouts.
09:40:48 <kmc> i already have
09:40:52 <kmc> not like that though
09:41:00 <kmc> what program handles that?
09:41:03 <fizzie> Apparently (wikipedia) œ is "used in the modern scholarly orthography of Old West Norse, representing the long vowel /øː/, contrasting with ø, which represents the short vowel /ø/".
09:41:33 <shachaf> The Windows tradition is to use Alt-Shift.
09:41:44 <shachaf> But I don't think you can easily get X to act exactly like Windows.
09:42:06 <shachaf> (Because it will switch on keydown of the Shift, making a lot of keyboard shortcuts impossible.)
09:42:24 <shachaf> Also the Windows tradition is that right-Ctrl-Shift will switch to an RTL language and move your cursor to the right side of the input field.
09:42:30 <shachaf> And left-Ctrl-Shift the reverse.
09:42:38 <shachaf> I don't think there's an equivalent. :-(
09:43:15 <fizzie> I also don't think xkb's built-in keyboard layout switching can do shift-shift, unless by that you mean "both shifts at the same time", not a two-key thing.
09:43:26 <shachaf> I mean both at the same time.
09:43:36 <fizzie> Oh, okay; then it's the grp:shifts_toggle option.
09:43:50 <shachaf> However, left-Shift-right-Shift will cycle in one direction, and right-Shift-left-Shift will cycle in the other.
09:44:06 <shachaf> Hmm, maybe I should refer to those keys as << and >>
09:44:16 <fizzie> Though I think in many cases it's still the desktop environment doing the switching, not xkb itself.
09:44:37 <shachaf> fizzie: Doesn't the desktop environment just tell xkb to use grp:whatever?
09:45:06 <shachaf> For example when you configure GNOME to behave that way, it generates an xkb configuration file and runs xkb with it.
09:45:11 <fizzie> It could, but obviously it could also use whatever mechanism it uses for all other keyboard shortcuts, and then just tell xkb to switch.
09:45:13 <shachaf> (This fact brought to you by: strace.)
09:45:34 <fizzie> I mean, that would let it use any kind of thing instead of just what xkb supports.
09:45:55 <fizzie> (I don't know what they actually do.)
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09:46:52 <fizzie> The GNOME "Options..." menu does smell a bit like it's more or less just a mapping from xkb into a graphical thing, that's twue.
09:49:02 <fizzie> Also someone's configured "both alt keys together" to switch layouts on this box, but there's just one Alt key. The other side is an AltGr and doesn't seem to count.
09:49:13 <fizzie> (Not that I have more than just two Finnish layouts there, so...)
09:49:42 <shachaf> Do you even need a Finnish layout?
09:49:53 <shachaf> I once tried to use a laptop with a Finnish layout and it was horrible.
09:50:19 <Vorpal> shachaf, uh the Finnish layout is basically the same as the Swedish one
09:50:21 <fizzie> I'm too used to it. There's quite a bit of AltGr'ing when programming.
09:50:27 <shachaf> But I can type the characters with AltGr on a US layout.
09:50:33 <Vorpal> and it isn't all that terrible except for the AltGr-stuff
09:51:22 <Vorpal> shachaf, would you consider a layout where the letter e required altgr to type?
09:51:51 <fizzie> The amount of Finnish I write with this keyboard does make äöå kinda superfluous. But since they're printed on it...
09:52:11 <Vorpal> shachaf, I can type all that without altgr
09:52:45 <Vorpal> I don't know /why/ I can type ë without altgr though, there is no use for that in Swedish
09:52:53 <shachaf> Vorpal: Are you Swedish or something?
09:53:16 <shachaf> You should stop being Swedish and be Finnish instead.
09:53:21 <shachaf> That'll solve your keyboard problems.
09:53:33 <Vorpal> shachaf, they use the same layout as Swedish!
09:53:34 <shachaf> I was in Swedishanialand once!
09:53:41 <Vorpal> so that makes no sense
09:53:53 <shachaf> Vorpal: Yes, but the Finns are crazy, so they have an excuse.
09:54:08 <fizzie> Anyway, using the US layout would be a bit strange what with the whole 104-key/105-key difference. What would our <>| key do?
09:54:12 <Vorpal> shachaf, oh come on, only a crazy person could pack things like IKEA
09:54:45 <shachaf> fizzie: Are you complaining about having an *EXTRA* key left over?
09:54:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, they don't have that key?
09:55:05 <fizzie> Vorpal: They have 'z' right next to shift, I believe.
09:55:11 <shachaf> Man, that's just like the good old days!
09:55:18 <kmc> ikea is hax
09:55:40 <kmc> "The groups of companies that form IKEA are all controlled by INGKA Holding ., a Dutch corporation, which in turn is controlled by a tax-exempt, not-for-profit Dutch foundation. The IKEA trademark and concept is controlled by a series of corporations that can be traced to the Netherlands Antilles and to the Interogo Foundation in Liechtenstein."
09:55:55 <fizzie> The broken bar is one of the casualties of ISO-8859-15.
09:55:57 <FireFly> What I wonder is why the norwegian and danish qwerty layouts have their æ and ø buttons swapped, when comparing them to each other
09:56:10 <shachaf> FireFly: Are you Nordanish?
09:56:29 <shachaf> Why is everyone Swedish? :-(
09:56:34 <kmc> basically the entire billion euro company is owned by a "nonprofit" whose mission is "To promote and support innovation in the field of architectural and interior design."
09:56:34 <fizzie> FireFly: I asked that very question here on this channel, and I think we had a Norwegian present, but I don't think there was an answer.
09:56:41 <Vorpal> kmc, it was originally Swedish though, and it is actually owned by the same person who founded it still afaik. There are a few steps in between though
09:56:48 <kmc> which in turn gives "grants" to IKEA's designers
09:56:55 <kmc> it is super sketchy
09:57:05 <kmc> it is the wealthiest nonprofit in the world
09:57:19 <Vorpal> I don't think it is actually non-profit though
09:57:34 <Vorpal> maybe legally, but not in any other sense
09:57:51 <kmc> that's what i'm getting at >_<
09:58:10 <fizzie> I'm under the impression that foundations mostly exist for shady tax business purposes.
09:58:50 <fizzie> Some of my wife's friends that have amounts of money (I don't recall details) have been doing some foundation-owned-apartments whatever thingamajiks.
09:59:09 <shachaf> Hmm, IKEA has <300 stores.
09:59:20 <shachaf> For some reason I thought it would be more.
09:59:27 <Vorpal> shachaf, 300? That is a lot
09:59:30 <shachaf> I mean, I live next door to one!
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10:00:17 <kmc> shachaf: huh, me too
10:00:26 <kmc> (thought it was more)
10:00:30 <kmc> one time i took the boat to ikea
10:00:47 <shachaf> kmc: You don't live next door to one? :-(
10:01:04 <shachaf> I'm told the EPA IKEA is one of the better things that happened to EPA.
10:01:21 -!- Sgeo has joined.
10:01:28 <kmc> Vorpal: IKEA in new york city is down by the waterfront, in an area which is kind of annoying to get to by subway
10:01:29 <fizzie> FireFly: The Finnish/Swedish keyboard has this §½ key at the top-left; the Danish layout has the same characters, but they're swapped; it's ½ raw, and § with shift. They just have to do everything backwards. That might explain the ø-æ thing.
10:01:32 <shachaf> Electronic Powder Anthology
10:01:34 <kmc> so they run a free boat from Manhattan
10:01:49 <kmc> actually it's $5 in the to-IKEA direction, but you get a $5 gift card
10:01:56 <kmc> in the other direction you just show a receipt
10:02:02 <kmc> and i think it's still free-free at weekends
10:02:17 <shachaf> kmc: No public-transportation tourism for you!
10:02:26 <Vorpal> FireFly, fizzie: Well it is totally in line with their pronunciation and their counting so...
10:02:31 <Vorpal> yeah, they do things backwards
10:02:51 <shachaf> Vorpal: EPA is East Palo Alto.
10:02:52 <kmc> shachaf: the Staten Island Ferry is still entirely free!
10:02:58 <fizzie> The Helsinki metropolitan region IKEAs have free bus transportation to/from them.
10:02:59 <shachaf> It's where silicon valley ends and the murders begin.
10:03:02 <kmc> SI threatened to secede in order to get that sweet deal
10:03:02 <Vorpal> shachaf, and what is Palo Alto?
10:03:08 <kmc> (I'm not sure why NYC was so sad to see them go...)
10:03:13 <Vorpal> iirc their name for "20" is basically "half-forty"
10:03:17 <kmc> honestly they should trade SI to New Jersey in exchange for Hudson County
10:03:37 <shachaf> kmc: Should I go and see El Palo Alto?
10:04:06 <kmc> oh, the big tree?
10:04:14 <fizzie> (There's lines from the city centre to both Espoo and Vantaa IKEAs, and also from Sello (a big shopping mall in a "centre"-ish location in Espoo) to the Espoo IKEA and from Itäkeskus (ditto for Vantaa) to the Vantaa IKEA.)
10:04:18 <kmc> i guess so?
10:04:22 <kmc> i saw the biggest tree in somerville
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10:04:26 <fizzie> Admittedly it's just something like three or four times per day. But still.
10:04:28 <kmc> so it would be, like, hypocritical if i told you not to
10:04:43 <shachaf> I was in Yosemite and they had pretty big trees there.
10:05:31 <shachaf> kmc: Does Somerville actually have trees?
10:06:50 <fizzie> They have some (two, I think) product-testing robots on display at the Espoo IKEA. IIRC, there's a thing that repeatedly sits on a chair, and a thing that repeatedly opens and closes a cupboard door.
10:07:07 <shachaf> According to paulgraham.com, California Ave. in Palo Alto used to have oak trees until a few years ago.
10:07:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh yeah I seen those as well
10:07:20 <fizzie> Also some numbers on to how many sittings they test their chairs, or something.
10:09:08 <oerjan> <Vorpal> iirc their name for "20" is basically "half-forty" <-- erm no, the danish madness doesn't start until 50.
10:10:31 <shachaf> > fix $ ("half "++) . ("twice" ++)
10:10:34 <lambdabot> "half twicehalf twicehalf twicehalf twicehalf twicehalf twicehalf twicehalf...
10:11:34 <kmc> shachaf: do you have a job these days?
10:11:39 <kmc> i remember you talking about an image processing thing
10:11:40 <oerjan> and also, 50 = half-60, 60 = thric(e-20)
10:12:25 <shachaf> The CV thing was just for a couple of weeks.
10:12:29 <Vorpal> oerjan, what was "half-fjers" then? (not sure about the spelling)
10:12:44 <Vorpal> oerjan, oh and what is "fjers"?
10:12:51 <shachaf> Now I'm doing a different thing -- life is too complicated. :-(
10:12:53 <Vorpal> oh so it didn't even make sense
10:13:11 <FireFly> "half" means ten less, obviously
10:13:16 <oerjan> sure it makes sense. 70 = half-80, 80 = four-t(imes 20)
10:13:26 <Vorpal> FireFly, rather than half?
10:13:29 <kmc> shachaf: what's it like?
10:13:33 <kmc> and why does it complicate
10:13:43 <Vorpal> oerjan, so the "half"-bit means?
10:13:48 <oerjan> Vorpal: it's probably half in the same sense as clock hours
10:13:54 <kmc> http://www.jerkcity.com/jerkcity512.html
10:14:34 <shachaf> kmc: It remains to be seen.
10:15:47 <oerjan> also, 90 = half-five-t(imes 20), although 100 is just "hundre"
10:16:13 <fizzie> oerjan: Don't the French do 80 as '4*20' too? And 75 as '60+15'? Something like that, anyway. (I didn't do any French.)
10:16:44 <shachaf> Just like Americans say "fourscore".
10:17:06 <oerjan> quatre-vingts quinze [sp]
10:17:14 <fizzie> shachaf: And "threescore years and ten" of life.
10:18:01 <shachaf> fizzie: threescore years and ten or threescore and ten years?
10:18:24 <fizzie> "The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away." --KJV
10:18:44 <shachaf> That's not Americans, that's KJV.
10:19:01 <fizzie> Well, you have your own share of KJV-fanatics, don't you?
10:19:12 <kmc> hey careful, that's a copyrighted work
10:19:24 <fizzie> Possibly more than the British do.
10:19:26 <oerjan> nine score years ago, americans spoke like KJV
10:19:38 <fizzie> Vorpal: A bible edition.
10:19:50 <fizzie> The One True Edition, according to some.
10:20:15 <fizzie> It's divinely inspired so it's infallible, or something like that. Unlike later editions that match source texts better.
10:20:27 <shachaf> Or the source text itself!
10:20:36 <shachaf> Being Finnish, I can read the bible in the original.
10:21:07 <fizzie> Also called "Authorized Version".
10:23:34 <oerjan> Alussa Jumala loi taivaan ja maan
10:24:03 <fizzie> Alussa oli suo, kuokka -- ja Jussi.
10:24:26 <fizzie> Also this should explain about KJV:
10:24:28 <oerjan> alas, google translate seems to have learned that exactly.
10:24:30 <fizzie> "Inspiration is when God takes a blank piece of paper (papyrus, vellum, etc.) and uses men to write His words.
10:24:33 <fizzie> Preservation is when God takes those words already written and uses men to preserve them to today.
10:24:36 <fizzie> Both of these actions are DIVINE and are assured by God as recorded in Psalm 12:6,7.
10:24:40 <fizzie> 6 "The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
10:24:43 <fizzie> 7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.""
10:25:21 <shachaf> Deewiant: Is there a right #esoteric?
10:26:08 <fizzie> You can set errno to E_LORD when divine intervention inhibits your code.
10:27:01 <Sgeo> Will Squeak or Pharo ever have decent namespacing, or ways to prevent conflicts with monkeypatching?
10:29:41 <fizzie> Also KJV is better than the originals because there are three occurrances of "translation" in KJV, and in all those cases the translation is better than the original: the "translation" of the kingdom of Isreal over to David, the "translation" of a sinner into Christianity, and the "translation" of Enoch to heaven. In all these cases, the translation was an improvement, so it must also apply to ...
10:29:48 <fizzie> ... the KJV. (Also other editions have not used the word 'translation' in those places, which means they are... bad, or something.)
10:29:51 <fizzie> (I read the above from the Internet.)
10:29:59 <oerjan> wikipedia seems to go out of their way not to call him that
10:30:04 <fizzie> (I think it's called logic.)
10:30:25 <fizzie> Of course if you "worship education" you may disagree.
10:30:33 <fizzie> (Source: http://av1611.com/kjbp/faq/translation-better.html )
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10:31:05 <fizzie> I've heard the name, yes.
10:31:07 <sebbu> fizzie, does your divine intervention contains unknown behavior ?
10:31:48 <Phantom_Hoover> There's one point where they interpret Jesus telling his disciples to cast their fishing nets on the right of the boat as an endorsement of conservatism.
10:32:20 * oerjan expects the conservative bible project to contain "If someone strikes you on the right cheek, strike him down _hard_."
10:32:33 <fizzie> I think I read some comparison review text thing about it too.
10:33:00 <Phantom_Hoover> They did get rid of the "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" bit because it was liberal anti-capital punishment claptrap.;
10:33:07 <fizzie> "Express Free Market Parables" is one of their guidelines.
10:33:20 <Vorpal> argh having an uneven number of icons you want on a given home screen on android is annoying, no symmetry is possible :/
10:35:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm wait, I wonder what they did with the bit where Jesus gets all angry at the shopkeepers.
10:37:45 <kmc> "A Colbert Report interview featured this project"
10:37:48 <kmc> they seem mighty proud of it
10:38:06 <fizzie> "Proposed Conservative Translation: They entered Jerusalem and Jesus entered the Temple. He threw out the vendors and toppled the moneychangers' tables and dove-sellers' seats."
10:38:13 <fizzie> Doesn't sound very different there.
10:38:52 <sebbu> i remember seeing a difference between 2 versions of one of the english bible where the meaning was *changed*
10:39:02 <mroman> >+<++]> appears to be a solution for 128 for interpreters that don't check brackets :)
10:39:22 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: I do like it how they've annotated the "And if a woman divorces her husband, and marries another, she commits adultery.'" verse with an "Analysis" note of "This is the real answer to the question of divorce."
10:39:26 <Vorpal> mroman, what would the ] jump to?
10:39:27 <sebbu> the bit which said in which cases you'ld have to be punished
10:39:33 <mroman> Vorpal: Jump to the beginning.
10:39:34 <sebbu> and what punition should be expected
10:39:43 <Vorpal> mroman, right, so not an actual solution then
10:39:52 <kmc> mroman: fish!
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10:40:06 <sebbu> don't remember the exact reference
10:41:06 <sebbu> but i remember something like "if you hit a pregnant woman", which originally included causing miscariage, but now only include causing stillborn
10:41:40 <sebbu> so the first case is no longer punished
10:42:05 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Also the Matthew version of the temple scene carries a note "Jesus does not mean to say that all commerce is inherently evil. He does make the point that commercial activity in the Temple can never be proper." And the Luke version with "The kind of buying and selling going on was not ordinary commerce, but trade in sacrifices and special coins which exploited religious values ...
10:42:11 <fizzie> ... for personal gain by non-believers."
10:47:02 <fizzie> They've also reworded the "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God" bit by changing the "rich man" to "an idle miser".
10:52:08 <Sgeo> .......why in the world did I have any trouble understanding Scala's unapply?
10:53:06 * itidus21 generalizes Sgeo's question into why in the world does anyone have trouble understanding anything designed by man
10:54:25 <itidus21> one reason may be that any attempt to explain and record civilization in infinite detail would bring civilization to a grinding halt
10:54:53 <itidus21> thus we must choose our queries and expend some energy in research
10:56:39 <itidus21> like.. suppose that someone wanted to walk across the room.. recording all the details of this act.. they would perhaps photograph all their footsteps.. but in order to record the act of photographing their footsteps they would install a mirror.. but to record the act of installing a mirror they would reach that endless recursion thing
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11:05:58 <Sgeo> What languages are there with strong static typing but with a highly dynamic environment?
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12:27:17 <mroman> Sgeo: What do you mean exactly wyth 'dynamic environment'?
12:27:31 <mroman> Native support for dynamic code loading?
12:27:59 <Sgeo> It being as comfortable as possible to modify a program while it's running
12:28:51 <fizzie> And the strong static typing?
12:31:18 <fizzie> I'm not sure Erlang's dynamic loading stuffs are all *that* comfortable, either. It can be done, sure, but (AFAIK) you need to design for that when writing the program.
12:33:22 <kmc> erlang doesn't really have static typing
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12:33:30 <kmc> it has an optional static checker that some people use, which can catch some stuff
12:34:40 <fizzie> Things found when googling for "statically typed Smalltalk", which I suppose is kind of what the question was all about: Strongtalk, the language with the best name.
12:34:50 <fizzie> Can't go wrong with Strongtalk.
12:57:17 <Sgeo> fizzie, hasn't Strongtalk been sort of neglected?
12:57:39 <fizzie> Sounds very likely. But the name is still great.
12:58:12 <fizzie> (I see latest news are about the open-sourced VM from 2006.)
12:58:43 <fizzie> "But with the release of the virtual-machine source code, a whole new world of possibilities has opened up. What will become of Strongtalk? Now, the answer is finally in the community's hands!"
12:58:52 <fizzie> Apparently the answer was a resounding "meh".
13:01:15 <Vorpal> aiee, this project uses ant. Oh the pain to build it
13:01:26 <fizzie> Yes, you may need to type "ant".
13:01:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, err, more than that, I need to configure the location of the android sdk somehow, since it complained about not finding it
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13:04:19 <fizzie> Sounds terrible. My condolences.
13:05:14 <Vorpal> also .svn is annoying. It messes up tab complete if you do something like cd foo/<TAB> if foo contains just one visible directory under it.
13:05:33 <Vorpal> this is annoying when navigating java source, com/foo/bar/xxyz and so on
13:07:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, do you happen to know how to specify a main class when using java -jar?
13:07:16 <fizzie> You mean, override the one that's in the manifest?
13:07:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, yes, or in this case there isn't one in the manifest
13:07:52 <fizzie> You can always just "java -cp blah.jar MainClass".
13:08:21 <fizzie> I don't think -jar does much more than adds to classpath and picks up the Main-Class attribute.
13:08:24 <Deewiant> Vorpal: "set match-hidden-files off" in .inputrc.
13:08:33 <Vorpal> Deewiant, oh nice, thanks
13:08:51 <Vorpal> hm java.lang.ClassNotFoundException, okaaay
13:09:02 <fizzie> I've been annoyed at the '.svn' directories in one school Java thing too.
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13:09:43 <Vorpal> Deewiant, having a .inputrc will still load /etc/inputrc right? No need to include or duplicate settings?
13:10:07 <Vorpal> also hm, what about tab completing when I *did* type a dot,
13:10:28 * Vorpal reads bash manual page
13:10:33 <Deewiant> You might need "$include /etc/inputrc" according to man bash.
13:11:00 <Deewiant> And that just changes things so that you need to type the dot. If you do, completion works as usual.
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13:11:12 <Vorpal> gah I don't remember how to reload inputrc on the fly
13:12:58 <fizzie> Deewiant: Wow, my 'man bash' seems to be pretty confused: "match-hidden-files: This variable, when set to On, causes readline to match files whose names begin with a `.' (hidden files) when performing filename completion, unless the leading `.' is supplied by the user in the filename to be completed."
13:13:16 <fizzie> So it won't match hidden files if I supply that dot.
13:14:29 <Vorpal> hm anyone know a good open source QR code generator that runs locally on your computer. I know there are various web based ones, but that is a security issue since my use case is transferring passwords to a phone from a laptop or desktop
13:14:30 <fizzie> I suppose it might have earlier been written for the 'Off' case, or something.
13:14:32 <Deewiant> That seems to say that when the variable is On, .-names are completed automatically unless you supplied the dot yourself, in which case they are also completed as per usual.
13:15:01 <fizzie> I don't see that last part in it.
13:15:21 <Deewiant> Vorpal: I've used 'qrencode' in Arch.
13:15:27 <fizzie> I mean, "match files -- unless the leading '.' is supplied" sounds more like it wouldn't match them if you supply them.
13:15:37 <fizzie> I've used something with 'qr' in the name.
13:16:07 <Vorpal> well that seems a pretty obvious choice for naming such a product
13:16:21 <fizzie> It might've been the same thing.
13:16:58 <Deewiant> fizzie: Yeah, true; I was thinking that when the . is already there that part of the completion would've already taken place, but it does say that it wouldn't match at all if the dot's there.
13:18:11 <Vorpal> hm isn't QR typed? I see no options to set the type
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13:30:03 <fizzie> There is a mode, but that only determines the character set. And the error correction level. I'd assume most programs can set those.
13:31:16 <fizzie> I guess it might also just pick the optimal mode.
13:34:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah, I guess readers just guess if it is text, urls, or contact info or whatever
13:36:16 <fizzie> Yes, there's no real content-type sort of field.
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13:38:42 <fizzie> I would guess a large proportion of "live" QR codes are URLs.
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15:09:14 <mroman> all already known though.
15:10:43 <mroman> 85,171,127,129 are all possible in 10 Instructions.
15:13:26 <mroman> Are the constants on the esowiki human-made?
15:13:32 <mroman> or how were they found?
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15:29:31 <Sgeo> tswett, Phantom_Hoover, there's been updates. They're not visible on the left-hand side of MSPA
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15:35:07 <Vorpal> mroman, how far are you going to go in length?
15:35:45 <Vorpal> also, how many computers (and cores) are you distributing the brute forcing on?
15:35:49 <mroman> Vorpal: Well, the programm is programmed to run until 256 Solutions have been found.
15:36:03 <mroman> which means there is no limit to length actually.
15:36:16 <mroman> But after a length of 32 all solutions *should* be found.
15:36:33 <mroman> And I haven't found a performant way to distribute it.
15:36:40 <Vorpal> iirc you said 5 years? Was that for one core then?
15:36:51 <mroman> I limited it to 1500 Cycles for each Brainfuck program
15:37:02 <mroman> spawning threads is more expensive than just run the few cycles ;)
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15:37:18 <Vorpal> mroman, let each thread run a large set of programs
15:37:26 <sebbu> http://asiajin.com/blog/2009/09/22/uroboros-programming-with-11-programming-languages/ :)
15:37:35 <mroman> which means that currently it runs on 1 core
15:37:49 <Vorpal> mroman, like have the threads running and give them each jobs maybe 1000 programs to test from a shared work queue
15:38:08 <Vorpal> that seems the optimal way to do it for a single-computer situation
15:38:09 <mroman> Which means 6046617 programs per minute
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15:38:36 <mroman> which means 2.5 years ;)
15:38:59 <Vorpal> okay so maybe not 1000 but instead 100000 programs per batch
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15:39:12 <Vorpal> mroman, you could easily cut that if you have a multi-core CPU
15:39:36 <Vorpal> or even multiple computers. I have cycles to spare if you write a distributed version (Brainfuck@HOME?)
15:39:42 <Sgeo> tswett, I don't see char select screen on the left
15:39:59 <mroman> That'd be cool @Brainfuck@HOME
15:40:07 <tswett> Sgeo: you don't? Here, it says 06/26/12 - "Select character."
15:40:30 <Sgeo> 06/21/12 - "==>"
15:40:30 <Vorpal> mroman, anyway my point is that this seems like a trivial thing to parallelize.
15:40:42 <Vorpal> oh and, how are you enumerating the programs
15:40:45 <mroman> But I don't have a multi core at home
15:40:52 <mroman> so I did not really bother to try to hard ;)
15:41:06 <Vorpal> mroman, I have a 4 core 3.4 GHz 64-bit core i7 (with hyper threading on top of the 4 cores)
15:41:33 <Vorpal> it is sandy bridge, so not the very last generation any longer
15:41:54 <Vorpal> I can't think of a /simple/ way to enumerate the set of *valid* programs
15:42:07 <mroman> The easiest thing probably would be to give "ranges of programs" to clients @Brainfuck@HOME
15:42:16 <Vorpal> why the extra @ at the start?
15:42:21 <mroman> but we'd need to find a way to verify that they actually run it.
15:42:34 <mroman> Vorpal: It's like @Vorpal ;)
15:42:38 <mroman> Marks the topic of my sentence
15:42:58 <Vorpal> and yes obviously you give ranges of programs
15:43:10 <Vorpal> that is what you would do for multi-core scheduling too
15:43:24 <mroman> But if I give them away I need to be sure that they were run.
15:43:54 <mroman> Else somebodys client might crash in the middle
15:44:00 <mroman> and we'd miss solutions :D
15:44:34 <Vorpal> you would have to write the program to keep track of where it left off. Presumably track which chunk you got to
15:44:51 <Vorpal> anyway where did you get the 2.5 year figure from? The length of the longest of the known solutions?
15:44:55 <mroman> Still, some bad guy could just say "Yeah, I tested that range."
15:45:15 <mroman> @longest known solution
15:45:32 <Vorpal> mroman, riiight, brainfuck research is a high profile target for sabotaging
15:45:56 <mroman> I could write something with no security checks ;)
15:45:57 <Vorpal> dammit, I need to find a good icon for this...
15:46:01 <mroman> If you don't mind runing python :)
15:46:09 <Vorpal> (android status bar notification, ICS style)
15:46:29 <Vorpal> you are number crunching in python?
15:47:00 <Vorpal> what you are doing is essentially a number crunching task. Python is /not/ suited for that
15:47:11 <Vorpal> this is one of the few areas I would actually suggest using C
15:47:17 <mroman> I will rewrite it in C ;)
15:47:36 <Vorpal> you will probably cut the time by a lot that way
15:48:49 <Vorpal> not sure if openmp would be useful for this
16:35:11 <Vorpal> hm checking out the android source code is taking forever
16:35:28 <Vorpal> (and all I wanted was getting at the system icons!)
16:35:56 <mroman> my c version currently crashes when compiled with gcc -O9
16:36:15 <Vorpal> everything higher than -O3 is the same as -O3
16:36:27 <Vorpal> unless they changed something very recently
16:36:48 <Vorpal> (I just checked on gcc 4.4.3)
16:36:54 <mroman> well, it crashes with -O3
16:37:40 <Vorpal> mroman, try valgrind on the -O0 binary and see if the program does anything stupid (that might not cause issues with -O0 or -O1 perhaps)
16:38:06 <Vorpal> if that doesn't help I would suggest compiling with -O2 -ggdb3 to be able to at least see which function it crashes in
16:39:02 <AnotherTest> mroman: is this true for all programs you try to compile?
16:39:45 <mroman> I'm actually surprised it does not crash with -O1
16:40:11 <Vorpal> AnotherTest, so not just a long time user testing with some unusual irc client setup?
16:40:24 <Vorpal> your nick /sounded/ like that :P
16:40:41 <AnotherTest> I have got that reaction from a number of members here :p
16:41:04 <Vorpal> yeah well I seen people test using irc with telnet and what not before
16:41:18 <Vorpal> iirc zzo used to use telnet for irc until he wrote his own client even
16:41:36 <mroman> with a segmentation fault.
16:41:38 <Vorpal> mroman, inspect = print?
16:41:57 <Vorpal> (zzo's client is probably the only irc client with an option to turn off automatic ping replies!)
16:42:14 <mroman> program[iptr] points to ']' according to gdb
16:42:14 <Vorpal> pretty sure print works in gdb
16:42:18 <Vorpal> at least that is what I used
16:42:24 <mroman> (gdb) inspect program[iptr]
16:42:39 <mroman> so, that seems not to be a cause for a segfault.
16:42:57 <Vorpal> okay this stuff is not helpful without the code. And I'm kind of semi-busy with understanding how Android foreground services work
16:43:00 <AnotherTest> mroman: so it's a specific problem; in that case it's either unexpected behavior or something or a bug in gcc I would say
16:43:12 <Vorpal> android programming is somewhat annoying due to the unusual life cycle of objects
16:43:45 <AnotherTest> mroman: could you paste the part where things go wrong?
16:44:17 <mroman> http://codepad.org/EM1bHFjg
16:44:26 <mroman> goes boom at line 11 with -O2 and higher.
16:45:22 <Vorpal> also this is very annoying to debug: I need to debug what happens when I remove or insert the USB cable
16:45:47 <Vorpal> (I'm writing an app that deals with charging on/off state)
16:46:11 <AnotherTest> I'm not much of a C guy(more C++, forgive me) but I'll try to see if I can find something
16:46:15 <mroman> maybe the error is *in the switch*
16:46:20 <mroman> instead of at switch(program[iptr])
16:46:26 <Vorpal> mroman, I'll take a quick look
16:46:36 <Vorpal> mroman, did you try valgrind yet?
16:46:45 <AnotherTest> I assume program is an array which contains the characters in your source code?
16:46:58 <Vorpal> mroman, if it is a segfault when accessing an array it might be an out-of-bounds access
16:47:17 <Vorpal> (and optimising could confuse gdb about the actual index, I had that happen to me)
16:47:25 <mroman> valgrind doesn't report anything suspicious.
16:47:43 <Vorpal> oh wait your array is on the stack
16:47:44 <mroman> AnotherTest: Yes, program is an array containing the code.
16:47:54 <Vorpal> mroman, for valgrind debugging purposes, malloc the array instead.
16:48:00 <AnotherTest> mroman: is PROG_MAX_STEPS the max. index for sure?
16:48:06 <Vorpal> valgrind can't detect if you overflow into another variable on the stack
16:48:10 <mroman> AnotherTest: That's not an index.
16:48:14 <Vorpal> mroman, that when optimised might be in a register instead
16:48:54 <Vorpal> yeah valgrind is not so useful for stuff on the stack in general
16:49:37 <mroman> AnotherTest: Yes @steps.
16:49:44 <mroman> but steps has nothing to do with array access.
16:49:46 <Vorpal> and if that doesn't help I would try valgrind on the optimised code.
16:50:06 <AnotherTest> mroman: it's not 100% sure yet that it's the array access
16:51:33 <mroman> 18:41 < mroman> $2 = 0x804a008 "<-]+"
16:52:45 <AnotherTest> but I guess that would have nothing to do with optimization
16:52:55 <mroman> http://codepad.org/AaJvlSQl
16:53:11 <AnotherTest> actually, does your code compile with other compilers?
16:53:34 <mroman> line 45 would be the switch(program[iptr])
16:55:11 <AnotherTest> I'm sorry; I don't understand why that code breaks when optimized
16:55:18 <mroman> $3 = <value optimized out>
16:55:24 <mroman> apparently it optimizes away cptr :D
16:56:12 <Vorpal> mroman, presumably it ended up in a register, volatile would likely work to make it show up for debugging
16:56:34 <Vorpal> mroman, also you might want to run valgrind with --db-attach=yes to make it attach on the first of the many errors listed
16:56:41 <mroman> with volatile it does not crash anymore ;)
16:57:00 <Vorpal> volatile is going to slow things down though
16:57:45 <Vorpal> mroman, but it /might/ actually be a compiler bug. I would suggest testing with clang or another non-gcc C compiler.
16:57:47 <AnotherTest> because if optimizations make code break, the code either has a bug or the optimization is bad
16:58:14 <Vorpal> mroman, which gcc version are you using?
16:58:49 <Vorpal> well, I wonder why that happened
16:58:54 <mroman> It crashes still, if I don't make iptr and steps volatile too
16:59:05 <mroman> if I make iptr and steps volatile too it does not crash anymore.
16:59:13 <mroman> cptr -15 is definitely a no-go :)
16:59:16 <Vorpal> mroman, how did cptr end up at -15?
16:59:28 <mroman> That's what I'm trying to find out right now.
16:59:50 <mroman> This means, that it executes case ']'
16:59:59 <mroman> which decreases the pointer in a while(iptr >= 0) loop
16:59:59 <Vorpal> wait a second, your program parses text every time to search for matching [?
17:00:15 <Vorpal> rather than building a tree representing the program and executing that
17:00:17 <mroman> Vorpal: Currently yes, not very optimal though.
17:00:25 <Vorpal> or even keeping a stack of [
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17:01:31 <Vorpal> mroman, personally I would build a quick tree representing the program (possibly doing trivial optimisation at the same time, such as keeping a running count of + and - and merging them, probably not worth doing much more in this case)
17:03:07 <mroman> I'm not sure if that matters for so small programs.
17:03:37 <mroman> *makes a big performance increase
17:03:48 <Vorpal> it is probably easier to implement though
17:03:56 <mroman> iptr--; while(iptr >= 0) { iptr--; }
17:04:05 <mroman> in what case would that leave iptr at -15 o_O
17:05:09 <fizzie> mroman: When iptr is -14.
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17:06:55 <mroman> C's % is not always positive :)
17:09:12 <fizzie> You may want &= 255 for that operation.
17:09:53 <fizzie> Though really, wouldn't it be easier to make cptr an unsigned char too, assuming you can assume CHAR_BIT == 8.
17:10:12 <fizzie> (And if you can do that, doing %= 256 on memory[x] is not useful.)
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17:11:07 <mroman> modulo is slow anyway.
17:11:54 <fizzie> Modulo with a constant 256 is probably going to be optimized to something doing the bitmask plus a few extra instructions to handle the negative case.
17:12:29 <fizzie> I looked at some of the things msvc, clang and gcc turn int i; i /= k; where k is a constant and k = 2^n with an integral n.
17:12:35 <fizzie> They were kind of fancy.
17:13:47 <mroman> it is WAY faster than python at least :)
17:13:53 <fizzie> One of them involved the instruction that sign-extends eax to edx (i.e. fills it with zeros or ones; it's used for preparing for div, which divides the full edx:eax pair) and then anding some constant with it, to get either the constant or 0.
17:14:01 <mroman> I'm already at 130 in just a few seconds :D
17:14:13 <fizzie> Speaking of the paste, case '[' doesn't seem to be tracking nesting depth.
17:17:31 <mroman> http://codepad.org/qkTR6fAe so far.
17:24:17 <mroman> +[+[+>]<<+]> produces 88.
17:24:42 <mroman> Which is shorter than any previous program that produces 88.
17:24:55 <mroman> in the wiki there are 13 Byte versions.
17:25:40 <fizzie> That looks like it goes through your whole 256-cell tape, though.
17:26:03 <mroman> I have to verify that.
17:26:29 <fizzie> I'm pretty sure the +[+>] component will.
17:27:03 <fizzie> I misread that as +[>+].
17:27:08 <fizzie> Maybe it doesn't, at that.
17:27:26 <fizzie> With just 1500 cycles or so, it'd be strange it it had time to wrap around many times.
17:28:32 <fizzie> Though the unbalanced loops are kinda scary, it might be doing something rather bizarroid.
17:31:55 <mroman> But it seems to work in different interpreters.
17:32:32 <mroman> http://esoteric.sange.fi/brainfuck/impl/interp/i.html
17:32:40 <mroman> that uses an array of size 32768
17:32:57 <mroman> if I understand the obfuscated source code well enough.
17:34:39 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bf: not found
17:34:40 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
17:34:51 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
17:35:15 <fizzie> That's a... thousand-cell tape, IIRC. Or something like that, anyway.
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17:36:00 <Gregor> That's a very, very large tape.
17:36:10 <mroman> It doesn't seem to wrap around the tape.
17:36:14 <fizzie> It seems to be meandering around in cells -1, 0 and 1.
17:36:21 <fizzie> Assuming it starts from 0, that is.
17:36:33 <Gregor> I don't believe that !bf accepts -1, it should segfault if you do that. Maybe.
17:36:53 <mroman> It works with different starting positions as well.
17:37:37 <mroman> it's using cell 11,10 and 9
17:38:03 <fizzie> Sure. So it's a (12, 3) solution, pretty much.
17:38:52 <mroman> May I add it to the list?
17:39:01 <fizzie> Also not the kind of thing that a human is likely to write.
17:39:02 <mroman> including or without a warning about unbalanced loops?
17:40:25 <fizzie> Well, you could add a comment that the three cells include neighbours on both sides; I wouldn't be surprised if all the existing programs only used space to the right of the start. (But it doesn't say anywhere that that'd have to be the case.)
17:43:03 <mroman> I also have a 12 B solution for 168.
17:43:20 <fizzie> !bf +++++++[-<+++++++>]<.>>[ look ma, no segfault ]
17:44:34 <mroman> Also using -1,0,1 cells.
17:44:50 <fizzie> That shows up as a diaeresis/umlaut here, which would be correct for latin-1 168.
17:45:01 <mroman> but instead of adding 88 it subtracts 88 of course.
17:47:18 <mroman> and another solution :D
17:47:59 <mroman> obviously 12B 88 plus a '+'
17:48:45 <fizzie> Let me guess, you might have a 14-character solution for 90, a 15-character for 91, and so on up to a 19-character to 95.
17:48:49 <fizzie> Those all are improvements.
17:52:24 <mroman> And I have a 13B solution for 56.
17:52:55 <fizzie> What's that look like?
17:53:58 <mroman> It seems to use cell 0,1 and 2
17:54:17 <mroman> it's not going to the left.
17:55:36 <mroman> I didn't expect to find any solution not previously known.
17:56:03 <fizzie> Coincidentally, 200 + 56 is 256.
17:56:18 <mroman> it's the same but with -
17:56:27 <fizzie> Brainfuck constant optimization is not exactly a terribly popular field.
17:56:46 <fizzie> Well, you get improved 55, 57, 58, 59 (and the negative versions) from that.
18:01:37 <mroman> I'm going to pause right now :)
18:02:13 <mroman> to give my poor cpu a little bit to rest.
18:03:24 <mroman> I'm glad I may have been able to help you reduce the code size of your brainfuck programs :D
18:03:45 <mroman> I'll contiune the program next day.
18:04:22 <AnotherTest> mroman: implying your brain contains a CPU?
18:08:11 <mroman> But I have to do work on my computer right no.
18:09:18 <AnotherTest> Ah I see, it's fun not to have to work(for now)
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18:28:21 <mroman> I'm getting the feeling that 1500 Cycles is a too low limit.
18:28:32 <mroman> -[++>+[+<]>]> runs in 1482 cycles.
18:28:38 <mroman> which means it just barely made it.
18:28:55 <mroman> And I might have missed solutions that would have ended at 1600 cycles
18:29:05 <mroman> but there is no practical solution to that.
18:30:19 <fizzie> There's not really a theoretical solution either. But there's the practical solution of optimizing the implementation some more, say for a 2x speedup, then duplicating the limit.
18:42:38 <Vorpal> I strongly dislike the new android API docs web page. It scrolls down a bit from the top when you scroll down, thus hiding the header. Including the search field
18:42:47 <Vorpal> what idiot thought that was a good idea
18:43:29 <Vorpal> and no, moving the mouse to the top doesn't help
18:45:49 <fizzie> I personally don't mind websites that work like websites used to, i.e. scroll the whole page. Especially when the alternative is not CSS fixed-positioning but some sort of a blurb that tries to constantly reposition itself to stay in one place with javascript.
18:46:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, the previous android docs design (and thank good, still the design of the offline docs) uses frames
18:46:17 <fizzie> They seem to add a go-to-top button on top of that package browser list, which is kinda weird, since most of the browsers have some sort of a home key.
18:46:20 <Vorpal> the header is a bit large
18:46:44 <Vorpal> I prefer the search field being accessible all the time
18:47:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway another issue with the new design is that not everything scrolls, the namespace list still behaves as a frame
18:47:34 <Vorpal> so it is inconsistent too
18:47:38 <fizzie> Maybe they could incorporate search functionality in that package browser. That's maybe where I'd have looked first.
18:48:20 <fizzie> Did you notice the arrow-and-line icon that appears above the package browser as soon as the top scrolls out of view?
18:48:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, it searches the various non-reference parts of the site too, like concept overviews and guides
18:48:47 <Vorpal> so the package browser would be an odd place for it
18:49:02 <Vorpal> but that jumps to the top of the page
18:49:17 <fizzie> Yes. Someone has certainly thought about how people need to jump to the top a lot.
18:49:19 <Vorpal> which is annoying since I tend to open things in new tabs all the time by middle clicking
18:49:34 <Vorpal> so I don't want it to jump to the top just to search
18:49:58 <Vorpal> though middle click doesn't work in that search field anyway, I'm pretty sure it used to
18:50:05 <Vorpal> in the old online version that is
18:50:24 <Vorpal> also the font they went for is far too blurry IMO
18:50:52 <Vorpal> it would be okay on a high dpi monitor. But that site is not made to be read /on/ the phone!
18:52:25 <Vorpal> hm I wonder if it is okay to bind a service in a broadcast receiver registered in the manifest file...
18:52:38 <Vorpal> I don't really like the android application life cycle stuff
18:52:49 <Vorpal> as soon as you need something to run in the background it gets complicated
18:56:00 <Vorpal> how am I going to tell my service that stuff then...
18:58:16 <fizzie> I guess they wanted it to be thematically appropriate. (It's the same Roboto font as in Android 4, right?)
18:58:30 <Vorpal> and it works fine on a 300 dpi monitor
18:58:42 <Vorpal> it is terrible on a 96 dpi desktop monitor
18:58:46 <Vorpal> even with full hinting
18:58:59 <fizzie> You should browse the Android APIs on your iPad 3.
18:59:21 <fizzie> No, but that's a 264 dpi screen.
18:59:31 <Vorpal> so still less than what my phone has
18:59:35 <Vorpal> which iirc is around 320
18:59:43 <fizzie> 2048x1536 at 9.7 inches.
19:00:01 <Vorpal> So 1080p videos look horrible on it then in full screen?
19:00:25 <fizzie> I guess they could do it at 1920 without people noticing too much. Not many pixels in the border.
19:00:37 <fizzie> It's also the native resolution of Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition, since that's what it's aimed at.
19:01:09 <Vorpal> also my broadcast receiver is getting -1 as the charging state when I plug it in. That doesn't even make sense...
19:01:12 <fizzie> They put a 2880x1800 15.4" screen in the latest MacBook Pro.
19:01:16 <pikhq> fizzie: Wow, you actually have to upscale 1080p.
19:01:48 <fizzie> Yes; especially with 2880 you will probably actually have to.
19:01:51 <Vorpal> I believe my phone is 1920x1080
19:01:59 <Vorpal> which is pretty crazy for a phone
19:02:12 <Vorpal> more than my desktop monitor even (1680x1050)
19:02:41 <fizzie> 1920x1080 even at 4.5 inches diagonal (and that'd be a *big* phone) would be around 490 dpi.
19:03:08 <fizzie> Could be, I'm no expert.
19:03:28 <fizzie> That's reasonable. For some values of.
19:03:31 <pikhq> MY phone is merely 800x480...
19:03:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, also quad core CPU
19:03:54 <sebbu> mine should be 480*360 or something
19:04:02 <fizzie> The N900 is 800x480 at around 3.5", so ~267 dpi.
19:04:39 <fizzie> The 2880x1800 at 15.4" is "only" 220 dpi, but that's still a lot of pixels.
19:04:41 <Vorpal> anyway, android used to have an option in the development menu to prevent the phone from going to sleep while USB was connected. It is missing on this phone. Apparently that is a Samsung thing.
19:04:53 <Vorpal> (since Galaxy Nexus had it)
19:05:03 <Vorpal> so I'm writing a program that does the same thing
19:05:24 <Gregor> It's not "a Samsung thing"
19:05:24 <Vorpal> no idea why they removed it. It was really useful when debugging
19:05:27 <Gregor> My off-brand tablet has that.
19:05:34 <Vorpal> Gregor, that they removed it?
19:05:41 <Vorpal> I said that removing it was a samsung thing
19:05:46 <Gregor> Ohohoh, I misunderstood.
19:05:52 <Gregor> I thought you meant that including it is a Samsung thing.
19:06:02 <Vorpal> Gregor, my Samsung Galaxy S3 is missing that option
19:06:06 <Vorpal> that is the whole point
19:06:36 <Vorpal> and now I have to properly learn the android life cycle thingy for services
19:06:46 <Vorpal> and not straight-forward at all
19:07:10 <Gregor> (Straightforward is one word)
19:07:35 <Vorpal> btw anyone know a good android irc client?
19:07:39 <Gregor> I'm not sure if I understand what "life cycle thingy for cervies" means...
19:07:43 <Gregor> I use AndChat, it's not terrible.
19:08:41 <Vorpal> Gregor, well, in general android activities, services, and so on have pretty strange life cycles (when they are created, suspended, resumed, destroyed and so on) when coming from a desktop programming perspective.
19:09:09 <Gregor> In that they're effectively suspended and destroyed "whenever the OS damn well pleases"?
19:09:24 <Vorpal> yes there is that, and in this case I don't want that to happen
19:09:34 <Vorpal> which means quite a complex set of steps must be performed
19:10:48 <Vorpal> also a lot of things happen async
19:10:56 <Vorpal> when talking between different such objects
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19:11:03 <Vorpal> which is even more confusing sometimes
19:15:20 <Vorpal> Gregor, also for broadcast receivers the extra data sent with the intent seems to be poorly documented
19:15:30 <Vorpal> it varies for different intents of course
19:15:46 <Vorpal> but I can't find which ones are available for the intent I'm interested in
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19:20:31 <Vorpal> The logcat log on this thing is huge (~37000 lines), so it takes several seconds for it to load the whole thing in after connecting the device. Which is annoying since I'm debugging how my program handles plugging/unplugging the USB cable atm XD
19:20:55 <Vorpal> so eclipse loads the whole log after every connect
19:24:26 <Gregor> Heh, that's probably stupidly difficult to debug.
19:25:18 <Vorpal> Gregor, well logcat thankfully does have a buffer on the device. The issue here is that it is so huge it takes ages to load
19:25:20 <fizzie> Wasn't someone using AndroIRC? But I have no first-hand knowledge of these things.
19:29:01 <mroman> AnotherTest: It's always fun not to work by the way ;)
19:29:19 <mroman> Unless you need money, of course.
19:29:30 <mroman> But working for money is the suckers way :D
19:30:02 <mroman> Sadly we're all suckers then :(
19:30:35 <mroman> Although I'm currently living with what I saved during apprenticeship.
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19:31:44 <Vorpal> it can't spell to itself
19:32:36 <fizzie> You should be using... that one thing, what was it called. That zoomy flowy thing.
19:33:04 <fizzie> It's like a small game every time you want to enter some text.
19:33:33 <VorpalPhone> Smart stay on s3 works better than expected
19:33:52 <Vorpal> that is the camera thing where it tries to see if anyone is looking on the screen before going to sleep
19:34:07 <fizzie> "On 22 March 2010, a new Guinness World Record of 35.54 seconds was set for the fastest text message on a touchscreen mobile phone using Swype on the Samsung Omnia II,[7] and reportedly improved on 22 August of the same year to 25.94 using a Samsung Galaxy S."
19:34:23 <Vorpal> how long was the message
19:34:30 <fizzie> 160 characters, 25 words.
19:34:50 <fizzie> "The razor-toothed piranhas of the genera Serrasalmus and Pygocentrus are the most ferocious freshwater fish in the world. In reality they seldom attack a human."
19:34:58 <Gregor> I was gonna say, I'm pretty sure I could send "lol" in <25 seconds.
19:35:03 <fizzie> (That was the message.)
19:35:18 <mroman> It's commonly known that piranhas can't kill a human just like that ;)
19:35:31 <VorpalPhone> Also swype works better than I expected before I tried it
19:35:50 <fizzie> The BBC article doesn't mention if he had been writing stuff like "Serrasalmus" and "Pygocentrus" in advance. I suppose those things do some learning?
19:36:02 <mroman> You probably would die from blood poisoning & co.
19:36:26 <fizzie> mroman: Only a skeleton is left after about three seconds, I've seen this in comics.
19:37:08 <VorpalPhone> Actually it isn't swype as such. On older phones there was an IME oil
19:37:24 <Vorpal> and then I hit enter by mistake
19:37:32 <Vorpal> there was an IME option called swype
19:37:40 <Vorpal> now it is included in the default "Samsung keyboard" IME
19:38:08 <fizzie> Oh, Nuance bought the Swype company? They're really chomping people up.
19:38:10 <Vorpal> so you can do tap or swipe, not sure if you could that with the original swype
19:38:24 <mroman> fizzie: Yes, and terrorist are everywhere.
19:38:28 <Vorpal> also why is my laptop acting like it is swap trashing
19:38:42 <fizzie> Nuance Communications, it's a speech/imaging/language company conglomerate.
19:38:51 <mroman> Although far more people die during falling down their stairs than from terror attacks.
19:38:56 <Vorpal> hm it isn't swap trashing
19:38:57 <fizzie> They've been buying other companies like it's going out of style.
19:39:00 <Vorpal> why is it acting like it then
19:39:19 <Vorpal> oh wait actually it is. Looks like Linux preferred to use the RAM for cache instead of xchat or X11
19:39:29 <fizzie> Including Loquendo, who did... something, I forget exactly what.
19:39:42 <Vorpal> (I am doing IO operations on it)
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19:40:07 <fizzie> A speech thing in some well-known thing, anyway.
19:40:39 <Vorpal> speaking of speech. Samsung included a Siri clone
19:40:50 <Vorpal> so I don't know what the point is
19:40:56 <Vorpal> it is not like even Siri is remotely useful
19:43:39 <fizzie> Since their 2006 merger with ScanSoft, they've bought: Dictaphone Corporation; Mobile Voice Control, Inc.; Focus Informatics, Inc.; Bluestar Resources Ltd.; BeVocal, Inc.; VoiceSignal Technologies, Inc.; Tegic Communications, Inc.; Commissure, Inc.; Vocada, Inc.; Viecore, Inc.; eScription, Inc.; Multivision Communications, Inc.; Philips Speech Recognition Systems GMBH; SNAPin Software, Inc.; a ...
19:43:46 <fizzie> ... pile of IBM's patents; Zi Corporation; speech technology department of Harman International Industries; Jott Networks Inc.; nCore Ltd.; Ecopy; Spinvox; MacSpeech; iTa P/L; PerSay; Equitrac; SVOX; Webmedx; Loquendo; Swype; Vlingo; Transcend Services.
19:43:53 <fizzie> Not that many of those are big companies, but still.
19:44:28 <Vorpal> most of those companies I hadn't even heard of
19:44:53 <fizzie> Well, they do speechy and voicy stuff. Nothing terribly famous there.
19:45:15 <fizzie> Oh, the somewhat known "Dragon ThisAndThat" family of speech things is by Nuance.
19:46:03 <AnotherTest> Vorpal: people like Siri because they think it's actual ai
19:46:09 <fizzie> Vlingo I remember seeing in some other context.
19:46:21 <Vorpal> AnotherTest, I thought they liked it because it was programmed to be somewhat funny
19:46:22 <fizzie> And I've heard some people claim they actually get some use out of Siri.
19:46:40 <fizzie> I think one of them was a blogging lawyer, and lawyers aren't known to joke.
19:46:45 <AnotherTest> Vorpal: most people I know, know the word programming but do not understand its meaning
19:47:20 <AnotherTest> Vorpal: most people that use the iPhone etc. are such people
19:47:41 <fizzie> Vorpal: Also Tegic (in that list of companies) made and patented the "T9" text input, if you've heard of that.
19:48:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah yes I know of T9
19:48:23 <Vorpal> the thing that made writing SMS on keypad phones actually possible
19:48:42 <pikhq> Yeah. That made it not actually suck.
19:48:48 <fizzie> Also made so many jokes about predictive text input mishaps possible.
19:49:06 <pikhq> It was also kinda an obvious thing if you had used tech in Asia.
19:49:29 <pikhq> (by necessity, text input in CJK is predictive)
19:49:40 <mroman> finding the actuall number of used cells is not that easy :D
19:50:05 <Vorpal> aha! I found the icon for adb being attached (which doesn't show on my samsung btw, why?)
19:50:22 <Vorpal> that it doesn't show? yes
19:50:32 <pikhq> Presumably Samsung believe in being blatantly non-stock?
19:50:32 <Vorpal> anyway it seems like a good thing to represent what I'm writing
19:50:47 <Vorpal> some of the stuff they do are improvements sure, but only some
19:50:57 <fizzie> Among the university students there's a slang term of sorts to say "jalka mk" in place of "kalja ok", i.e. "beer ok", because that's what some phone produced for the corresponding keys. (It's from the SMS-to-Usenet gateway that CS students used to use to announce when they were off partying somewhere, and how things went wrong that time.)
19:51:00 <mroman> I shall write a program that measures cell usage.
19:51:01 <Vorpal> I like their start application menu, it is better than stock
19:51:08 <Vorpal> the rest of the UI? nah
19:51:09 <fizzie> Well, SMS-to-private-news-server, not Usenet per se.
19:51:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, what does "kalja ok" mean?
19:51:46 <Vorpal> also usenet? you guys still use that?
19:51:51 <Deewiant> Vorpal: "beer ok", like he said.
19:52:17 <fizzie> The newsgroups are pretty dead nowadays.
19:52:19 <Vorpal> to find this icon btw, I had to check out 13 GB of android sources
19:52:21 <Deewiant> And I guess most people don't but news.tky.fi is certainly up and running.
19:52:33 <fizzie> Well, yes, it still *works*.
19:52:39 <fizzie> And there are posts, just not all that many.
19:52:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, I presume "jalka" doesn't mean anything?
19:53:08 <fizzie> Otherwise it wouldn't be predicted.
19:53:13 <fizzie> Well, that doesn't really mean anything.
19:53:37 <fizzie> The abbreviation for the previous monetary unit.
19:53:39 <AnotherTest> Heh, there is this professor(in Java) at the university near where I live(not sure what his name is), and he said that in public methods you should always use the getters rather than the field name directly. Isn't that a little over-pedantic?
19:53:44 <Vorpal> how can you have a word without vowels?
19:53:48 <fizzie> How didn't I think of that? Face to palm.
19:54:06 <mroman> yeah. 56 and 200 require 4 cells, not 3.
19:54:13 <Vorpal> AnotherTest, it is very... object oriented
19:54:23 <Vorpal> on the other hand, android lint can be set to complain about it
19:54:37 <fizzie> Deewiant: Also, the news.tky.fi webterface gives me 403 now. Was it restricted to local use or what?
19:54:37 <Vorpal> since apparently it is up to 3x slower with the dalvik VM
19:54:57 <Deewiant> fizzie: Beats me, I've only used it like once or twice.
19:55:07 <fizzie> It seems to work from work.
19:55:27 <Deewiant> fizzie: http://news.tky.fi/ seems to work for me.
19:56:40 <AnotherTest> Vorpal: I was just wondering if there's a lot of advantage. Using getters has great advantage if you want to change fields, however, someone who writes public methods should also have written and/or understood the fields?(or else you would have not enough abstraction?)
19:56:58 <Vorpal> I miss ? on the end of function names from scheme, I can't think of a good equivalent of "take-lock?" (a function that decides if we should take a wake lock by looking at the current situation and settings)
19:57:05 <fizzie> fis@eris:~$ curl -s -4 -I http://news.tky.fi/ | grep HTTP
19:57:06 <fizzie> fis@eris:~$ curl -s -6 -I http://news.tky.fi/ | grep HTTP
19:57:06 <fizzie> HTTP/1.1 403 Forbidden
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19:57:13 <fizzie> Deewiant: IPv6 breaks the day again.
19:57:34 <Vorpal> AnotherTest, I think C#/.NET properties is a nice solution to the issue.
19:57:59 <Vorpal> well, a reasonable one
19:58:03 <Vorpal> it is still object oriented
19:58:15 <Vorpal> AnotherTest, my suggestion: go with the policy at the company you work at. Or of the teacher for the course in question.
19:58:20 <Vorpal> For your own code? Do what you prefer
19:58:39 <fizzie> There was also a tradition to post a fixed-content disparaging message to the "-h" newsgroup (mostly CS students) whenever someone left their account logged-in at one of the university workstations.
19:58:44 <Vorpal> personally I don't do getters or setters if they would be just this.foo = foo
19:59:00 <Vorpal> if you are making an API?
19:59:04 <Vorpal> well, that is trickier
19:59:05 <fizzie> I see last one is from April 5th, so either the tradition has gotten less common, or people have gotten better at not leaving unlocked computers unattended.
19:59:15 <Vorpal> do what is best then for maintaining it
19:59:35 <Vorpal> AnotherTest, from within the same class I wouldn't use "pointless" getters/setters
19:59:43 <AnotherTest> Vorpal: I do as you do it seems. I'm not writing an API, although my project is quite big.
19:59:56 <fizzie> Vorpal: Re ?, you can do what Lisp folks do and substitute in "P".
20:00:05 <mroman> Vorpal: I know have a program which accept a range of programs to calculate.
20:00:22 <mroman> Which means that you can run different processes with different ranges on each core.
20:00:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, or I could confuse every haskell programmer out there and call it maybeTakeLock
20:00:55 <mroman> But I have to generate a list of ranges first.
20:02:20 <fizzie> Vorpal: That name also sort of suggests it would actually do take the lock if necessary, and not just check whether it should.
20:03:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, well the P thing would just confuse me
20:03:14 <Vorpal> so not sure what I would call it
20:03:16 <fizzie> "takeLockP" is I think the combination of Lisp P-for-predicate and Java CamelCase.
20:03:31 <fizzie> Okay, it's probably not a good idea.
20:04:06 <fizzie> You can call it mustTakeLock if you want your programs to look like English. ("if (mustTakeLock) ...")
20:04:33 <Vorpal> also "We" sounds out of place
20:04:42 <Vorpal> and "mustWeTakeLock" sounds like it is whining about it
20:04:58 <boily> takethYeOldeLocke?
20:04:59 <Vorpal> AnotherTest, I presume it is a reference. I don't get it however.
20:05:01 <fizzie> mustWeTakeTheLockAgainReallyOhMan.
20:05:58 <fizzie> The 'is'/'has' prefix is a conventional for boolean-returning methods, but it's not really all that applicable here. isItLockingTimeAgain?
20:06:00 <AnotherTest> Vorpal: it's just an overly long identifier name, intended as a parody on long names
20:06:10 <fizzie> Conventional in Java, that is.
20:06:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah, that is why I have the silly field "isUSB"
20:06:47 <AnotherTest> Vorpal: but I must say l isn't much better :p
20:06:50 <Vorpal> indicating if we are on USB
20:07:10 <Vorpal> AnotherTest, I was kind of aiming for a balance in between those extremes yeah
20:07:19 <fizzie> 'isLockNeeded' is kind of tame, but preferrably you'd have some sort of closer match to other things, maybe.
20:08:08 <Vorpal> I have a "release-lock?" as well btw
20:08:54 <Vorpal> or hm, actually I can rewrite it as one function and move the check of the current state of locking elsewhere
20:09:04 <Vorpal> in which case "needsLock" is fine
20:10:05 <Vorpal> enums behave silly in switch blocks btw
20:10:24 <Vorpal> since everywhere else you need to qualify it like MyEnum.VALUE
20:10:28 <Vorpal> but there it is just VALUE
20:10:54 <AnotherTest> Speaking of enums, I like C++11's strong enums
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20:11:44 <Vorpal> dammit, java is being stupid. The end of the function /is/ unreachable
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20:12:09 <mroman> Vorpal: Oh. yeah @know.
20:12:37 <mroman> I never learnt how to write english :D
20:12:48 <mroman> I learnt it by listening.
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20:16:28 <mroman> Well, I had english in school years ago.
20:16:29 <fizzie> Vorpal: Sadly, the rules of switch don't let you write it as switch (enumvalue.ordinal()) { case MyEnum.VALUE.ordinal(): ... } for consistency.
20:16:44 <mroman> but leaning languages in school is pretty much useless.
20:16:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, is that what it translates to?
20:17:11 <mroman> "I like red cars. I like them because they are red"
20:17:12 <fizzie> (MyEnum.VALUE.ordinal() isn't constant enough for a case label is why.)
20:17:20 <mroman> that's probably the niveau of school english.
20:17:31 <mroman> Everything else I learned by watching american television shows.
20:18:04 <Vorpal> so save as Swedish "nivå" then
20:19:04 <itidus21> strange question here.. what does it mean for an Ada, Common Lisp or REBOL program to have a loop condition in the middle of the loop?
20:19:31 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, it translates probably into either the 'tableswitch' or the 'lookupswitch' bytecode, if you look deeply enough. But to something approximating that code, anyway.
20:19:51 <fizzie> Given that the constants are consecutive, I guess tableswitch.
20:20:12 <mroman> I usually just know how an english word sounds and guess how to spell it :)
20:20:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, you seem to know a lot about java bytecode?
20:20:51 <fizzie> I've browsed the specification now and then. I had some sort of vague plans for something I've forgotten.
20:21:01 <itidus21> i guess it probably means that it would look something like { ... while(condition) ... }
20:21:08 <fizzie> Turns out the verification rules make doing exotic things impossible.
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20:21:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, what is that rule?
20:22:43 <fizzie> There's all kinds of rules. But one of them makes it so that you can't (at least easily) translate a general stack-based language to Java bytecode in such a way that the VM stack would be used as the language's stack, because if some point of the code can be reached via multiple paths, all the various paths must have provably identical stack effects.
20:23:00 <nortti> 23:12 <Yaniel> ln *.o libglfw.a -lOpenGL32 -lpng
20:23:01 <fizzie> So you can't do any sort of "loop until stack empty" sort of things.
20:23:17 <fizzie> (You'd hit the loop start with different stacks.)
20:24:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, do the values have to be the same, or just the number of elements and their types?
20:24:41 <fizzie> And no computed jumps either, all targets must be known bytes that are start of one opcode.
20:25:00 <fizzie> I'll check how the exact wording was.
20:25:26 <fizzie> Same stack depth regardless of the path taken.
20:26:16 <Vorpal> does it help the optimiser that much?
20:26:28 <Vorpal> since it is going to be JIT-compiled anyway
20:26:43 <fizzie> Well, they determine the maximum stack depth at compile time.
20:27:04 <fizzie> That would be harder, I suppose.
20:27:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, how can they do that though, recursive functions would mess that u
20:27:39 <fizzie> The stack is local to the function.
20:27:51 <Vorpal> how do they pass parameters then?
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20:28:15 <Vorpal> and such a stack sounds terribly inefficient, allocating a stack for each function call
20:28:16 <fizzie> The 'invokeblah' opcodes pop them off the local stack. (It's a different thing than the call stack.)
20:28:44 <Vorpal> hm is JVM stack or register based btw?
20:29:18 <fizzie> It's not exactly going to be very many elements deep. I don't think values usually live on it from one statement to the next; it just converts expressions into stack-based opcodes.
20:29:38 <fizzie> And then the JIT will revamp it back to register-oriented machine code.
20:30:01 <fizzie> Dalvik is IIRC a register-based arch.
20:30:07 <Vorpal> hm why do they use a stack based vm
20:30:28 <fizzie> That's not in the book. Or at least I haven't noticed it yet.
20:30:54 <fizzie> The Java Virtual Machine Specification book.
20:30:57 <Vorpal> I mean why did Sun decide to use stack based
20:31:01 <fizzie> It doesn't really deal in whys.
20:31:02 <Vorpal> since the JVM is stack based
20:31:23 <fizzie> It's not all that uncommon; .Net's bytecode uses a stack-based architecture too, unless I misremember.
20:32:11 <VorpalPhone> Llvm and dalvik are both register based though.
20:32:41 <fizzie> They're also sort of more modern.
20:32:44 <fizzie> Maybe they inherited some of that stuff from Self.
20:33:13 <fizzie> I have no idea how that thing's internals looked, but they had some JIT stuffs that I think ended up in Java's HotSpot.
20:33:24 <VorpalPhone> Also the lag between your messages arriving on my laptop and this phone is very large.
20:33:36 <Vorpal> which is strange since they are both currently on the same WLAN
20:33:45 <Vorpal> and there is no such lag in sending
20:34:44 <Vorpal> and typing on swype may be fast compared to non-swype on phone, but I really wish there was something as fast as a laptop keyboard on a phone (no those tiny keyboards like your nokia has are not as fast as laptop keyboards)
20:36:25 <FireFly> The (AFAIK) first language with prototypical inheritance, a Smalltalk dialect
20:36:36 <fizzie> Yes, that sounds like a reasonable summary.
20:36:55 <fizzie> Also involved people went to Sun and worked on the Java JIT.
20:36:58 <shachaf> Is there a language with stereotypical inheritance?
20:37:45 <FireFly> shachaf, <insert pun here about "class"ical languages>
20:38:42 <shachaf> <insert type="pun" location="here" topic=""class"ical languages"></insert>
20:38:50 <Vorpal> how do spinners work in Android for fixed translatable strings... gah
20:39:01 <Vorpal> I only populated spinners from code before.
20:40:07 <fizzie> Vorpal: Actually to be slightly more accurate, the "operand stack" (spec term; what the VM instructions operate on) is in fact part of the stack frame on the "real stack" (my term). It has that smallish fixed maximum depth, so it's not all that resource-intensive, I suppose. So it's not separate stacks, at least conceptually.
20:42:52 <Vorpal> VorpalPhone, Testing highlight
20:43:17 <Vorpal> I wish it did a nick column like xchat
20:43:21 <Vorpal> I find that easier to read
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20:50:05 <oerjan> does the VorpalPhone go snickersnack?
20:51:27 <oerjan> it thinks stickers are more edible than snickers, i take
20:51:46 <Vorpal> well I went with first suggestion
20:53:03 <itidus21> couldn't convince my doctor i'm allergic.. i just get an awful reaction that i have to spit and spit and perhaps take anvil
20:55:05 -!- VorpalPhone has quit (Quit: Bye).
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21:00:48 <VorpalPhone> Going to try randomly dragging around to see what I get .
21:01:48 <VorpalPhone> Divisive bridal vocabulary history Cisco Hutchison subdivision search zero workshop wagon worn posh high ennui caucus vista Chicago citizen
21:04:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, you played Tale of Monkey Island right?
21:04:49 <Vorpal> the more recent game that is
21:05:21 <oerjan> hm... http://www.sheldoncomics.com/
21:05:37 <Vorpal> saw it was 60% off on gog, not sure if it is worth it still at $14
21:10:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, so was it worth that price?
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21:12:43 <fizzie> I can't really answer questions of worth. It wasn't bad by any means, but it wasn't terribly good either. I did have some fun with it. Some of the parts were on the boring side, and I vaguely recall there were some frustrating bits, but perhaps that's to be expected. Anyway, the writing wasn't bad (in my subjective opinion), which I suppose was a big plus.
21:13:37 <Lumpio-> Released 3 years ago and alreayd on gog?
21:13:46 <Lumpio-> That didn't sell for long...
21:14:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, so how do you compare it to MI1, MI2 and MI3?
21:14:12 <fizzie> I got all five for some not terribly large amounts of money, Telltale themselves were having some sort of a thing.
21:14:34 <Vorpal> Lumpio-, there are some new releases on gog happening nowdays (apart from their own witcher series I mean)
21:14:52 <Vorpal> guess they are looking for extra revenue
21:15:37 <Vorpal> oh right, they are the episodic game guys
21:16:40 <fizzie> Well. It wasn't as consistently good as I remember those games being, but that could be nostalgia talking. But the best moments were in the same ballpark. Also, I kind of like puns, and there was some amount of those. I suppose the puzzles weren't all that clever, all in all.
21:16:50 <Lumpio-> I just don't feel like playing MI with 3D graphics .__.
21:17:04 <Lumpio-> I know it takes ages to do 2D animation but somebody could at least try .__.
21:17:10 <fizzie> Well, it looks different, that's certainly true.
21:17:12 <nortti> yay. I ported unix v7 ed to windows
21:17:15 <Lumpio-> Wasn't there a kickstarter for something like that lately
21:17:59 <fizzie> Lumpio-: There was at least that Double Fine Adventure kickstarter.
21:18:04 <fizzie> Notable for getting so much money.
21:18:11 <Vorpal> Lumpio-, you know they made special editions with completely redrawn graphics of MI1 and MI2?
21:18:17 <Vorpal> new music, and voice acting as well
21:18:29 <fizzie> They got $3,336,371 of their $400,000 goal.
21:18:46 <fizzie> IIRC, the special editions are fancy in that they allow you to swap between the original and the new graphics at any time you like.
21:18:54 <Vorpal> yeah they do that topo
21:19:12 <Vorpal> watched a bit of an LP of MI2 special edition
21:19:27 <Vorpal> not really interested in the LP itself though
21:19:32 <Vorpal> let me see if I can find it
21:20:17 <Vorpal> ah https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=De2xdeIrtTI
21:20:26 <Vorpal> Lumpio-, you might want to check if that is something in your taste
21:20:26 <fizzie> I was sort of tempted to take part in that kickstarting thing since you could've gotten the game from it for just $15, but in the end sort of forgot.
21:20:52 <Vorpal> Lumpio-, oh wait, it actually starts here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcyFF1wIQPs
21:21:24 <Vorpal> also kickstarters involve some economical risk
21:22:00 <Vorpal> and there really haven't been any major game kickstarters before. So we can't really compare successrate yet.
21:22:20 <fizzie> It's from the Psychonauts folks, so they should know how to do fun, or so people at least say; and Tim Schafer should know a thing or two about adventure games.
21:22:57 <fizzie> So I suppose cautious optimism is warranted.
21:22:59 <Vorpal> yeah they might not know how to do it economically though.
21:23:06 <ion> Brilliant idea #51: inhaling capsaicin. http://youtu.be/7bKTsmIBIao
21:23:07 <Vorpal> but sure, I do think they will manage
21:23:43 <ion> Incidentally, i’ve been playing TSOMI:SE since yesterday.
21:29:49 <Vorpal> yay my screen waker program works
21:30:16 <Vorpal> need some GUI polish though
21:31:17 <Vorpal> oerjan, like, you know, saving your settings
21:31:41 <oerjan> ok, but why do you want them in polish
21:32:22 <Vorpal> oerjan, currently the UI looks terrible. I should upload a screenshot
21:32:58 <Vorpal> lets try the built in stuff for that
21:35:22 <Vorpal> oerjan, https://dl.dropbox.com/u/87474461/Screenshot_2012-06-26-23-32-49.png
21:36:01 <Vorpal> (this phone came with 50 GB on dropbox for 2 years btw, kind of nice, what with how expensive it was)
21:36:17 <Lumpio-> Inhaling anything besides air sounds suspect to me
21:36:18 <Vorpal> oerjan, also doesn't save settings yet
21:36:28 <Vorpal> oerjan, anyway the start/stop service buttons are going away
21:36:35 <Vorpal> they are not relevant really except when debugging
21:37:18 <Vorpal> oerjan, also I plan to add a notification thingy for it
21:37:28 <Vorpal> in the notification screen you know
21:37:55 <oerjan> i don't know, i don't have a smartphone
21:39:38 <Vorpal> oerjan, this screen, you reach it from anywhere by dragging down from the top of the screen: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/87474461/Screenshot_2012-06-26-23-38-20.png
21:39:55 <Vorpal> it shows stuff like that listed there, also things like "you got new mail"
21:43:13 <Vorpal> dropbox is kind of neat. I just hit the "send to dropbox" on my phone in the gallery, then it showed up within seconds on both my computers
21:46:03 <fizzie> Banner ad of the day: an ad for a self-described "combat lightsaber specialist" company.
21:46:47 <Vorpal> did you check out the details?
21:47:42 <fizzie> Well, they sell lightsabers. I don't know how combat-ready they are. Prices generally range from $100 to $200 for single-bladed models, approximately.
21:48:26 <fizzie> The models have very impressive names. The Dark Initiate LE v3, the Collectors Edition Liberator v3, and so on.
21:49:04 <fizzie> Dart Maul UltraFX Double Hilt with their Premium Obsidian soundboard retails for $649.
21:49:14 <fizzie> s/Dart/Darth/ obviously.
21:49:39 <fizzie> "UltraEdge blades provide a thick, bright blade due to the white polycarbonate tube. They are as good as the mid-grade blades for dueling purposes."
21:49:49 <fizzie> I didn't really know this sort of thing was a thing.
21:51:19 <fizzie> (Though I suppose there's really no reason to be surprised at all.)
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21:53:02 <oerjan> it's when the specification includes amount of kilokelvins you can start being surprised.
21:56:43 <fizzie> "Genuine Luxeon III LED installed with high quality heat-sink" "Detachable fiber optic Ultra Blade with polycarbonate blade tip" "Stainless steel retention bolt used to secure blade while also allowing for quick blade removal" sadly it sounds quite like fakery.
21:57:18 <oerjan> well a heat-sink _should_ be useful.
21:59:23 <Vorpal> how are light sabres supposed to work (in the story that is)
21:59:32 <Vorpal> what sci-fi justification do they have?
21:59:32 <fizzie> Crystals, if I recall correctly.
21:59:43 <Vorpal> and the "blade" itself?
21:59:50 <fizzie> What do you mean crystals of what? Crystals!
22:00:02 <fizzie> Wookieepedia has quite a lot of *text* about it.
22:00:12 <Vorpal> what does the blade consist of for example
22:00:15 <fizzie> "The weapon consisted of a blade of pure plasma emitted from the hilt and suspended in a force containment field. The field contained the immense heat of the plasma, protecting the wielder, and allowed the blade to keep its shape."
22:00:33 <Vorpal> "pure" plasma contained in what?
22:00:53 <Vorpal> that was a "the what" as in "I don't believe that"
22:01:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, "force containment"
22:01:16 <Vorpal> "may the force be with you"?
22:01:33 <fizzie> I think it's actually a regular force field, but I'm not completely sure.
22:01:34 <oerjan> i suspect it's not the same force
22:01:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, and how are *those* supposed to work?
22:01:50 <oerjan> ...for some value of "regular"
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22:02:25 <oerjan> next up Vorpal will claim star wars hyperdrive is unrealistic.
22:02:39 <fizzie> The primary parts of a lightsaber: the hilt, the pommel cap, the diatium power cell, the inert power insulator, the focusing lens, the lightsaber crystal, the emitter matrix and the blade emitter. Each of those is its own article.
22:02:48 <Vorpal> oerjan, all FTL travel I seen so far is unrealistic.
22:02:53 <Vorpal> so that doesn't surprise me
22:03:44 <fizzie> The main article is 27 A4 pages, printed.
22:03:48 <oerjan> Vorpal: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TechnoBabble hth
22:04:08 <fizzie> It's mostly history, though.
22:04:40 <fizzie> "The blade emitter was the part of a lightsaber that actually projected the blade. It consisted of the emitter matrix, which further focused the blade after the crystal with a tightly wrapped magnetic field, and the emitter itself, where the blade actually protruded. The emitter possessed the magnetic ring that created the field that contained the plasma of the blade and arced it back to the ...
22:04:47 <fizzie> ... lightsaber for reconversion back to electricity."
22:05:37 <fizzie> Now it's magnetic containment in this article, so who knows.
22:05:50 <fizzie> It doesn't exactly explain how the magnetic field is shaped, anyway.
22:05:55 <oerjan> fizzie: of course it's history, it happened a long time ago you know
22:06:24 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
22:07:44 <fizzie> oerjan: Well, but history-history. You know, the whole story from the Rakatan Forcesabers with their ebon crystals that channel the dark side, through the First Blade and he Duinuogwuin Contention days, up to adoption by the Jedi, the Great Galactic War, and so on.
22:09:36 <fizzie> As everyone knows, it was the Sith Empire that were mostly responsible from refining them from mostly ceremonial tools into a practical weapon, primarily by solving the power supply problem by including an internal superconductor that transferred the returning looping energy from the negative-charged flux aperture back to the power cell.
22:09:47 <fizzie> (These are all quotes from Wookieepedia.)
22:10:08 <fizzie> (Not direct quotations, but the information.)
22:11:05 * oerjan suddenly wonders if "Rakata" is a mangling of Raksha
22:11:48 <fizzie> "Rakata is the name of a volcano on the island of Krakatau", according to the 'Behind the scenes' section.
22:12:05 <oerjan> well it _is_, but that doesn't prove anything...
22:12:37 <fizzie> They were invented for one of the games, apparently.
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22:25:27 <Phantom__Hoover> fizzie, they were invented for KOTOR, which is one of the better-regarded games.
22:26:08 <Phantom__Hoover> In the sense that people these days constantly use it in the phrase "is crap, why can't we go back to the days when things like KOTOR were made".
22:26:29 -!- zzo38 has joined.
22:29:31 <Phantom__Hoover> Also if you're in the mood for weird Wookiepedia articles, they have a very odd article on 'breast'.
22:29:44 <itidus21> i try to rant fiercely about what is wrong with todays games...
22:30:07 <itidus21> but my usual set of deficiencies plagues me
22:31:38 <itidus21> my reluctance to do actual research, focusing outside of actual practice preferring imaginary practice, spending half my rants correcting the errors i have made so far
22:32:45 <itidus21> but as for "why can't we go back to the days when things like KOTOR were made" i -like to think i- rarely make statements of the form "why can't we?" but i probably do anyway
22:34:27 <zzo38> What games do you mean?
22:35:30 <itidus21> unlike some, i am quite happy to play by fair rules in such discussions (eh i don't know a meaning discussion vs debate vs rant)
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22:37:10 <itidus21> in order for a modern game to be categorized as inferior to a past game, some kind of analysis of what is actually wrong should take place
22:37:53 <itidus21> rather, the burden of proof is really on the gameplayer to prove that somehow their experiences with the modern game are unsatisfactory in some way
22:38:23 <itidus21> i suppose in reality, comparison to past games is really a special case, and a mistake
22:38:40 <zzo38> Perhaps yes it may be one special case
22:39:07 <itidus21> it could be related to how one can grow weary of something
22:39:15 <itidus21> and also the lens of nostalgia
22:39:17 <zzo38> In many computer games one problem may be that the scoring could be improved from how they had made it
22:39:54 <itidus21> and how we measure what we like is probably relative to what is available
22:41:09 <itidus21> most people don't have time to carry on about these questions
22:41:39 <itidus21> i think it may be necessary to go back to aristotle to uncover some of the answers
22:41:51 <itidus21> there is a fallacy that good graphics are more desirable
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22:42:14 <itidus21> well the fallacy is that "good" is ill-defined i suppose
22:42:30 <zzo38> What graphics are needed may also depend on the game
22:42:41 <itidus21> and it is pointless to say the desirable graphics are desirable
22:42:57 <zzo38> In generaly I think the graphics is generally not needed
22:43:19 <itidus21> except to counter the fallacy that undesirable graphics are desirable
22:44:15 <itidus21> the consumer sheep have been well-fed on 3d graphics...
22:44:43 <zzo38> If 3D geometry is not used in the gameplay, it should not have 3D graphics, is my opinion.
22:44:47 <itidus21> in a way theres nothing wrong with the system
22:45:03 <itidus21> but, i am happiest when trying to criticize something
22:46:00 <zzo38> I make many different computer games in the way I prefer it, and then other people that like in this way can play this game too.
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22:46:48 <itidus21> like graffiti is only meaningful in as much as some can't stand it so much that taxes get spent cleaning it
22:48:24 <itidus21> but at the same time, there was some artwork by that banksy guy which accidently got destroyed, and people have started speculating about putting protective plastic on certain works of graffiti
22:48:30 <zzo38> Don't waste your taxes like that.
22:49:12 <itidus21> im going off topic it seems, but i gotta go make breakfast
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23:03:19 <itidus21> zzo38: so i try to focus on answering questions like "why can't we go back to the days when things like KOTOR were made"
23:03:34 <itidus21> rather than treating it as rhetorical which would be the norm
23:05:56 <itidus21> ive never had an internet connected console, but some of the problems i think is the way that when a game is played in single player, that it needs cultural relevance to be deeply enjoyable
23:07:28 <itidus21> humm.. ok i'm honing in on the problem
23:08:05 <itidus21> if you write a software application it is natural to use it a lot..
23:09:15 <itidus21> but if you write a game, then somehow it would be weird to spend signifigant time playing the game yourself if not for testing
23:09:45 <itidus21> although i hear the creator of gran turismo plays it
23:09:59 <itidus21> maybe it is the mark of a good game if the developers themselves actually want to play it
23:12:43 <zzo38> I don't know KOTOR. But, I do make the game that I like to play by myself too
23:13:59 <itidus21> i do feel a sense of guilt when i flood this channel with this wall of text
23:15:02 <zzo38> itidus21: I am OK with that. Although other people can type on here too
23:15:21 <itidus21> but this is not the right place to say quite so much quite so fast
23:19:05 <itidus21> sequels in the top 100 game sales of 2012: mass effect,diablo,just dance,mario kart,call of duty,super mario,mario party,final fantasy,elder scrolls,fifa soccer,battlefield,uncharted,resident evil,max payne,gran turismo,ufc undisputed,assassin's creed,zelda,grand theft auto
23:20:16 <itidus21> and a few others i guess. basically the best popular games are almost all franchises and sequels.
23:27:11 <Phantom__Hoover> It'd probably be more meaningful if you looked at sales figures across the series.
23:27:19 <itidus21> there was some bias in the ones i left out too
23:28:14 <itidus21> i think that there is a great emphasis on gaming as a form of social interaction. this is probably nothing new. nightclubs have gotten rich as social networking services
23:30:15 <itidus21> its really astonishing how many sales super mario gets
23:31:41 <Phantom__Hoover> FWIW the top selling console games in 2001 were *all* part of a preexisting franchise, as were all but 2 of the PC games.
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23:31:49 <zzo38> How good game do you think the computer game I have made would be? (Super ASCII MZX Town, Potion of Confusing, XnazzyBall, Disk Catch, The CGA Collection (which consists of various computer games), etc)
23:32:29 <zzo38> Sales do not affect the quality of a game unless they use that money to hire people to make improvements and that those people are actually competent to do so.
23:33:42 <itidus21> although games tend to be similar to each other
23:33:47 <itidus21> and although games get called clones
23:34:20 <itidus21> i think theres almost no instances of a non-puzzle game's physics being copied verbatim
23:34:34 <zzo38> That is why we should make up the games differently, even if there are some similarities.
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23:35:01 <zzo38> But you are correct there does tend to be too many similarities, but usually they do not even make improvements to those things
23:35:05 <Phantom__Hoover> quintopia, is that a "please for the love of god stop this conversation" line?
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23:41:57 <zzo38> The plot of the "Potion of Confusing" game is somewhat like this: You have to solve the puzzles to collect the purple keys and once you have enough you can leave. You have to save gibbering mouthers from the king's army, and the only way to do that is to hold the second purple key as you hold a pencil, and write "VOID" on the contract; that way the army will attack the king instead. But you need to go to the library to learn the contract law first,
23:41:58 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, a puzzle platformer
23:42:05 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, was part of a previous humble bundle
23:42:11 <Vorpal> the android bundle iirc
23:42:20 <Vorpal> so I put it on my new phone to try out touch controls for games
23:42:21 <zzo38> Games such as "Disk Catch" have no real plot because it is not that kind of game.
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23:43:00 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, displaying a gamepad on screen and using that worked best out of the three control methods (the one I just mentioned, tilt, drag cube (the player is a cube))
23:43:23 <zzo38> Is there external keyboard method?
23:43:25 <Vorpal> also my room is a wifi white spot
23:43:36 <Vorpal> zzo38, I don't have an external keyboard for my phone though
23:43:40 <Vorpal> there is on the PC version
23:43:46 <Vorpal> (iirc it is wasd or the arrow keys)
23:43:54 <Phantom__Hoover> I'll remember that in the event that I buy an Android phone and feel the need to play a highly-reviewed indie game on it.
23:44:05 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, anyway why did you want me to say something?
23:44:26 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, stop being sarcastic, there is no call for it
23:44:32 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, that.... sounds terrible
23:44:40 <Vorpal> I will not read the scrollback, I'm too scared
23:44:40 <zzo38> Do you have something to say?
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23:45:09 <Vorpal> why is there a white spot for wifi here, even my laptop can only get like 2 bars :/
23:46:00 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, well, it doesn't normally bother me since I use ethernet for my laptop in here
23:46:20 <Vorpal> however, Samsung neglected adding an ethernet port to this phone!
23:46:25 <Phantom__Hoover> In fact I'm pretty sure wifi in general is a big hoax, and it's actually all run with the souls of baby rabbits or something which keep hopping into the wrong place or something I swear this made sense when I started typing
23:46:37 <Vorpal> (I'm kind of happy with that, think how bulky it would have been!)
23:47:35 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, zzo was in here, I'm not sure he would have understood that I was ironic
23:50:32 <VorpalPhone> I really like swype though. At least for English it is pretty good. Haven't tried it much for Swedish yet. Although it can't tell to and too apart.
23:51:29 <Phantom__Hoover> Just need to make it confuse see and seen and it'll be able to perfectly mimic your typing.
23:51:59 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, I confuse those two words?
23:52:08 <Vorpal> oh I guess I need to work on that then
23:52:28 <Phantom__Hoover> I believe I've brought up your struggles with the pluperfect at least twice before.
23:53:33 <VorpalPhone> Testar swype för svenska. Ett sammansatt ord: ... well that fails (concur
23:53:56 <Vorpal> why is backspace next to enter :/
23:54:09 <Vorpal> on phones it is annoying
23:54:31 <Phantom__Hoover> Presumably because they both needed to operate similar mechanisms on typewriters, seeing as both moved the carriage back.
23:55:03 <Vorpal> doesn't make sense on a phone keyboard though
23:55:14 <Vorpal> anyway swype fails concatenated words in Swedish
23:55:24 <Vorpal> at least non-common ones
23:55:44 <Phantom__Hoover> Vorpal, of course it does, they both need to move the little carriage under the screen back.
23:55:45 <Vorpal> for Swedish you really need a set of base-words and a ruleset for how to construct concatenated words
23:56:12 <Vorpal> and it looks like for Swedish it just has a simple word list
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23:56:52 <Vorpal> okay that is annoying, the quit message looks very similar to when the client said it lost connection itself
23:57:15 <Phantom__Hoover> That page image is possibly the best I've seen on Wikipedia.
23:57:30 <zzo38> I have seen that some keyboards (rarely-used) have non-destructive backspace above the return key but the rubout key to the left of the "A"
23:57:49 <zzo38> Do you think that is a better place for it?
23:57:54 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, click the image and read the description
23:58:40 <zzo38> (Where non-destructive backspace is used for overlapping characters to make a non-equal sign and so on)
23:58:54 <Phantom__Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_picture_candidates/Backspace