< 1340928031 2963 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually checking again, it's (the N900 temp, that is) in the phone, just next to the battery. Probably cuts off charging if it raises to "you could burn an egg" temperatures. < 1340928041 885064 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1340928137 654114 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, how much does pressure vary with altitude compared to how much it varies with weather? < 1340928329 524958 :TeruFSX_!~quassel@65-128-161-243.mpls.qwest.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1340928375 276177 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC you need really significant altitude changes to vary more than due to weather, but I suppose you could get some relative altitude data with better precision, maybe. (Weather doesn't change all that rapidly.) < 1340928470 89878 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :why don't they make glasses with oleophobic coatings? < 1340928472 54542 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It could even slurp the reference barometric pressure from the nearest weather station over the net and use that to fix things for altitude readings. < 1340928502 756916 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and speaking of that, why don't they make glasses out of Gorilla glass? < 1340928542 98165 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, right, that seems reasonable < 1340928665 499306 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose their lens-making tools might not work on that? I don't really know how Gorilla glass works. < 1340928680 293854 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm okay < 1340928689 108874 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :the oleophobic coating should though < 1340928701 476353 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe they just assume people with glasses don't get hit so often. < 1340928722 613597 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1340928725 750079 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :scratches though < 1340928728 984078 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is the real issue < 1340928830 486550 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently some folks at "Zenni Optical" do oleophobic coating on eyeglasses. (Didn't see any actual reviews on whether it works.) < 1340928842 232044 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1340928913 591831 :VorpalPhone!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1340928978 324336 :VorpalPhone!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: glasses with that would be amazing though < 1340929000 527865 :VorpalPhone!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you have glasses < 1340929047 775754 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1340929081 102465 :VorpalPhone!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never seen any photos of you < 1340929133 39881 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :They took a professional-photographer research group photo at work few weeks back, but I don't think it's online yet. < 1340929169 688119 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :All others are somewhat old. < 1340929172 927962 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1340929188 731001 :VorpalPhone!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anything goes < 1340929202 498847 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a dithered black-and-white one at http://zem.fi/img/namecard.png -- that's from 2004. < 1340929228 157056 :VorpalPhone!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :The hair... < 1340929238 640432 :VorpalPhone!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not what I imagined < 1340929246 628875 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't normally have the hair quite like that. < 1340929266 121193 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was visiting a friend, whose girlfriend did that, if I recall correctly. < 1340929276 814943 :VorpalPhone!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Long hair still? < 1340929321 159233 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but not braided like that, nor with a bowtie-like thing. < 1340929344 845176 :VorpalPhone!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Couldn't tell it was braided < 1340929379 889779 :VorpalPhone!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why dithered black & white < 1340929451 589983 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used it in a black-and-white-printed piece of paper at my (shared-)office door originally. < 1340929461 138798 :VorpalPhone!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1340929468 76269 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also it's not quite as clear as the original, which is just a benefit. < 1340929514 723380 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I, uh... actually the other online photo I have is from 2001, 18th birthday party, and it has an even more ridiculous hair. < 1340929522 456855 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Again someone else's fault. < 1340929547 342333 :VorpalPhone!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Link! < 1340929557 982291 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure I should. < 1340929599 854046 :VorpalPhone!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why not < 1340929651 38478 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I look silly in it. < 1340929670 171569 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it's over a decade old, maybe I'm detached enough from it. < 1340929676 140802 :VorpalPhone!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also why does swype think "why" is eddy or edgy most puff the time < 1340929695 234897 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://chillout.irc-galleria.net/e/fi-i/00/00/00/65/65.jpg?h=31fa662a24e06ca351d0a2329dc4dad3456ee50b&t=1341735256 -- and yes, the query string params seem to be necessary. < 1340929719 37052 :VorpalPhone!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Amazing < 1340929720 587258 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk JOIN :#esoteric < 1340929737 107108 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe they'll get that group photo up soon, then I can refer to it. (Except if it turns out horrible.) < 1340929738 84862 :VorpalPhone!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Truly amazing < 1340929768 77710 :VorpalPhone!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially if it is terrible < 1340929771 411579 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk QUIT :Client Quit < 1340929806 484548 :VorpalPhone!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway which research group was that < 1340929897 45152 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Speech group of the Information and Computer Science department of the School of Science of Aalto University. < 1340929915 200880 :VorpalPhone!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :And they do what? < 1340929929 126245 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kind of long to spell out like that in an affiliation field. < 1340929943 644002 :VorpalPhone!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hah < 1340929944 611195 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Speech recognition and synthesis, for the most part. < 1340929958 24421 :VorpalPhone!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah both of those < 1340930006 865194 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also it's part of the Computational... O-something Inverse... N-something special thing-thing, but I'm not sure where it goes, hierarchically. < 1340930012 769241 :VorpalPhone!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: what is your opinion on siri < 1340930014 334636 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it goes a bit sideways. < 1340930043 783298 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haven't talked to, can't really have an opinion. < 1340930049 453969 :VorpalPhone!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1340930105 725199 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, it was "Centre of Excellence in Computational Inference Research". < 1340930116 476615 :VorpalPhone!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Samsung's s voice is annoying. That is their siri clone < 1340930117 146262 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just called COIN most of the time. < 1340930143 774697 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The Centre of Excellence thing is some sort of a funding-related nation-wide thing.) < 1340930160 991424 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(There's probably a dozen or two of them.) < 1340930182 348285 :VorpalPhone!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also that name is pretty pretentious < 1340930200 300570 :VorpalPhone!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Excellence eh? < 1340930226 460489 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the previous Centre of Excellence used to be AIRC, and then NN-something before that. < 1340930238 905093 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a fixed-term (five years?) thing. < 1340930263 363915 :VorpalPhone!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure you live up to that, but everyone else? < 1340930285 611680 :VorpalPhone!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh < 1340930304 552319 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not even sure who of the department are "in" COIN. I *think* our group as a whole is. < 1340930325 49022 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not like it actually affected something that'd be visible on my level. < 1340930326 634871 :VorpalPhone!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :You mean the title is on a rotating schedule? < 1340930341 51242 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :They nominate new ones as old ones end. < 1340930348 866799 :VorpalPhone!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1340930354 709433 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It's not an exclusive title.) < 1340930364 820180 :VorpalPhone!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm < 1340930374 12955 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And normally it has a bit different focus than the previous one. < 1340930397 276377 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think this current one is in fact shared with University of Helsinki. < 1340930401 547109 :VorpalPhone!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh what was the previous one? < 1340930410 641005 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Adative Informatics Research Centre. < 1340930416 272596 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Adaptive. < 1340930432 797076 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the one before had Neural Networks in the name. < 1340930435 50795 :VorpalPhone!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah that is what that stood for < 1340930525 473795 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The Finnish Centre of Excellence in Computational Inference Research (COIN) develops methods for transforming the data produced by the current data revolution into useful information. The key methodology for achieving this goal is statistical and computational inference based on the data. The emphasis is on large data collections and computationally demanding modelling and inference ... < 1340930531 470840 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :... algorithms. Our mission is to push the boundary towards both more complex problems, requiring more sructured data models, and towards extremely rapid inference. -- We will work on two flagship applications. In the Intelligent Information Access flagship, the challenge is to make use of massive interrelated information sources, whether in everyday life or in science, and select what ... < 1340930537 485677 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :... information to present to the user. The inference needs to be done on-line, learning relevance from the user's responses. In the Computational Biology and Medicine flagship, we develop methods for maximally utilizing the novel measurement databases and structured stochastic models in making data-driven biology cumulative." < 1340930542 986907 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone good at writing funding applications has been doing their blurbs. < 1340930557 1914 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since it says "we will", chances are it's quoted directly from the application docs. < 1340930575 946497 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, fancy buzzwords and all that. < 1340930591 527854 :VorpalPhone!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh < 1340930604 45493 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i love the part where the acronym isn't even close to the word it indicates < 1340930630 505746 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :COmputational INference, COIN. < 1340930637 790176 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohhh < 1340930649 665735 :VorpalPhone!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is data driven biology < 1340930652 809929 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Suppose they wanted it pronounceable and memorable. < 1340930679 673525 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well thats extremely arbitrary :D < 1340930685 185911 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like it < 1340930695 6524 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm no biologist. But Bayesians doing biology. Gene expression datasets feature heavily, I think. < 1340930720 443922 :VorpalPhone!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds scary < 1340930746 69010 :VorpalPhone!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bayesians I mean < 1340930775 495392 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Protein-protein interaction networks, too. (All I know about this is the abstracts in email ads of arranged talks.) < 1340930804 868567 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :its roughly like saying, The Esoteric Programming Languages Wiki(ESPR) < 1340930814 891740 :VorpalPhone!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: not as random as xml... should be eml < 1340931930 52607 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :VorpalPhone, um... < 1340931952 83136 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not random, ex- as X is pretty common. < 1340931973 446888 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: rebooting, brb < 1340931978 755267 :VorpalPhone!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes but it is stupid all the same < 1340931981 246523 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 TOPIC #esoteric :#esoteric: Where we decide just how much you can shoot someone and their dog. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | This is what the bfjoust hill will look like under the new scoring system: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=XEWnVMg8 < 1340932013 984305 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, that's contrived because it leaves out half the words, though. < 1340932040 294134 :VorpalPhone!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also input method is pretty cool. I I'm trying out SwiftKey atm < 1340932050 893467 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Finnish Centre of Excellence in Computational Inference Research (COIN) < 1340932076 192458 :VorpalPhone!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Swype is kind of nice too though < 1340932095 729752 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, that is an example of TCY. < 1340932108 886714 :VorpalPhone!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tcy < 1340932116 663180 :VorpalPhone!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is that < 1340932125 136907 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, no, I'll call it TICADRO < 1340932139 662324 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um < 1340932157 263474 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :TICROME < 1340932168 858982 :VorpalPhone!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also SwiftKey is much faster than Swype with two hands. And more comfortable < 1340932184 898092 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1340932230 766151 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk JOIN :#esoteric < 1340933557 207192 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1340933641 46879 :augur_!~augur@208.58.5.87 NICK :augur < 1340933884 314196 :VorpalPhone!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah SwiftKey is awesome > 1340934317 241811 JOIN :#esoteric > 1340934321 375278 JOIN :#esoteric > 1340934321 891999 JOIN :#esoteric > 1340934349 827038 JOIN :#esoteric < 1340934350 497148 :glogbot!codu@codu.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1340934350 797045 :glogbackup!~glogbacku@64.31.59.246 PART :#esoteric > 1340934353 958107 JOIN :#esoteric > 1340934354 473930 JOIN :#esoteric < 1340934369 154880 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1340934370 554871 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1340934373 947621 :VorpalPhone!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, there was that yes < 1340934395 150066 :ion!ion@heh.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1340934668 146874 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1340934675 94374 :VorpalPhone!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hah < 1340934824 349478 :VorpalPhone!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Swype beta is pretty good as well. Both it and swiftkey have their own advantages... < 1340935297 400315 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Swype is still in beta? < 1340935671 242205 :VorpalPhone!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is a beta version, much improved to the default on this phone < 1340935754 253112 :VorpalPhone!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: the default is just Samsung keyboard with swiping. I proper swupe 3 beta is better < 1340935796 590422 :VorpalPhone!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Using SwiftKey atm though, and much faster with the thumbs < 1340935866 675462 :VorpalPhone!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Skype is better with one hand or with an index finger (and holding in the other hand) < 1340935902 920756 :VorpalPhone!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Err swype not skype < 1340935991 704385 :TeruFSX!~quassel@65-128-161-243.mpls.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1340936339 221376 :VorpalPhone!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Night < 1340936344 865273 :VorpalPhone!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/anmaster QUIT :Quit: Bye < 1340937984 606312 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1340938093 896472 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1340939312 755000 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1340939646 97948 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 JOIN :#esoteric < 1340940813 163442 :Guest34050!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1340940857 280315 :Tod-Autojoined!~Tod@166-70-93-209.ip.xmission.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1340940858 234741 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-228-197.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1340940858 742701 :TodPunk!~Tod@166-70-93-209.ip.xmission.com QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1340940858 894140 :pikhq_!~pikhq@70-56-228-197.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Quit: Reconnecting < 1340941029 59564 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1340941067 63614 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :20:37 edwardk: Do you know what I was writing about above? Maybe you know, nobody else responded and neither did you < 1340941073 524307 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: What a charming phrasing. :-) < 1340941157 848797 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1340941172 699602 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, edwardk is in here too these days. < 1340941215 390030 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :how else can i stalk kmc? < 1340941231 688148 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :i drove him off the other day with too much talk of locally nameless syntax < 1340941251 477160 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've learned over the years you have to approach him slowly, with one hand out holding a bit of interesting code < 1340941295 313754 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you get too aggressive he clams up and goes quiet, or runs away < 1340941786 595558 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, /r/nostalgia thinks I'm a spammer < 1340941794 827394 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because I linked to a song on modarchive < 1340941802 735043 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Wow. Spammer. < 1340941813 929862 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, well, that the link I submitted was spam < 1340941831 909596 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because apparently it "takes me to some website to download something" < 1340941833 342555 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall a. id :: a -> a < 1340941851 896921 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://modarchive.org/module.php?36405 the link in question < 1340941876 5880 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: SPAMMER < 1340942080 863803 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :edwardk: So I was at this one category-theory-related meeting where they were drawing a bunch of diagrams and things. < 1340942108 615369 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone said I should read Pierce's book on it. Is that a good book to read on it? < 1340942206 486993 :MDude!~fyrc@67.232.231.162 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1340942367 225357 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1340942371 463927 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :its a god awful book < 1340942381 257811 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :even pierce says so < 1340942382 342360 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :=P < 1340942475 152889 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1340942593 943151 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's a good book? < 1340942731 377097 :function!~root@freebsd/developer/variable NICK :variable < 1340943112 845525 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :categories for the working mathematician < 1340943116 295859 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is another? < 1340943117 29760 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :=) < 1340943140 932328 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :that said, awodey is good, and lawvere and schanuel will drill drill drill the basics until you know sections/retracts cold < 1340943154 49401 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :i also really like of all things serge lang's algebra < 1340943171 370587 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :because he goes out of his way to set up the category theory construct as he defines the algebraic ones < 1340943194 940597 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :its only slightly less dense than CftWM but way way thicker < 1340943354 446398 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1340944382 500613 :calamari!~calamari@ip72-211-147-156.tc.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1340944395 513067 :calamari!~calamari@ip72-211-147-156.tc.ph.cox.net PART :#esoteric < 1340945721 766241 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@178235038077.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1340947383 308281 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1340947421 526873 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1340948980 402887 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1340949158 832950 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk JOIN :#esoteric < 1340951628 920353 :AnotherTest!~Test@94-224-18-137.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1340951897 228677 :nortti!jhaverin@evo.paivola.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :how is crunchfuck supposed to work? < 1340952166 411952 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :cat ignore_list.txt | ./crunchfuck 'startProgram' howManyPrograms < 1340952186 732511 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :It then brute forces the next howManyPrograms starting from 'startProgram'. < 1340952203 309318 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :while ignoring results for numbers on the ignore_list < 1340952216 716850 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which is a newline seperated list of numbers followed by the text 'end') < 1340952293 881827 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :If your startProgram has a length of 15 you can put all numbers on the ignore_list known to be shorter than 16 bytes < 1340952307 6114 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it won't get any shorter. < 1340952601 859475 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can bruteforce on an i3 approx 16 ULONG_MAX ranges a night :) < 1340952627 485054 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :checking the output is more time consuming :) < 1340952631 891217 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you don't automate it. < 1340952634 127928 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ulong tea < 1340952686 396952 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120622/16193319442/myth-dispensing-whole-spotify-barely-pays-artists-story-is-bunk.shtml < 1340953107 334925 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1340953112 890285 :DH____!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 JOIN :#esoteric < 1340953116 879186 :DH____!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1340953176 798559 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1340953195 864990 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 JOIN :#esoteric < 1340953376 710865 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@178235038077.elblag.vectranet.pl QUIT :Quit: Wychodzi < 1340953475 37387 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1340953645 725336 :AnotherTest!~Test@94-224-18-137.access.telenet.be QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1340953680 895470 :AnotherTest!~Test@94-224-18-137.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1340954032 247127 :AnotherTest!~Test@94-224-18-137.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1340955945 705051 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1340956748 129967 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am amused by http://www.electrical-contractor.net/PC/EuroBS1363adapter.jpg < 1340956755 758861 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently if you buy import electronics in the UK this is often what you get < 1340956822 552262 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1340957071 465412 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1340957163 291088 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: You find that amusing? < 1340957165 812912 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's weird. < 1340958122 241412 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The 3 kilometers (1.9 mi) long Botlekspoortunnel under Rotterdam harbour replaces the antiquated Botlek bridge, which remains in service as backup and for regional traffic. Space around the tunnel was so constrained that, after completing the first tube, the tunnel boring machine had to be dismantled inside the tube. The parts were then returned to the starting point and reassembled to bore the second tube." < 1340958296 356718 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The bootleg bridge. < 1340958586 14592 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cuz bootlegz're mainstreamz? < 1340958671 762317 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The bootleg bridge, replaced by the bootleg sport tunnel. < 1340958684 18916 :jix!~jix@jixco.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1340958703 796130 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :nederlandse spoorwegen < 1340959519 381136 :Patashu!~Patashu@c27-253-127-153.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1340960472 851028 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1340962385 306179 :derdon!~derdon@pD9E1D34E.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1340962439 835110 :nortti!jhaverin@evo.paivola.fi QUIT :Quit: see ya < 1340963960 270973 :jix!~jix@jixco.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1340964201 293994 :AnotherTest!~Test@94-224-18-137.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1340964439 562819 :AnotherTest1!~Test@94-224-18-137.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1340964557 274568 :AnotherTest!~Test@94-224-18-137.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1340964805 376462 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-228-197.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1340964811 738176 :pikhq!~pikhq@168-103-253-116.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1340964908 452596 :AnotherTest1!~Test@94-224-18-137.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1340966343 951063 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :This spam reads like something some kid would threaten < 1340966350 353895 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's supposedly a letter from the FBI < 1340966366 749487 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"We have warned you so many times and you have decided to ignore our e-mails or because you believe we have not been instructed to get you arrested, and today if you < 1340966366 900678 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fail to respond back to us with the payment then, we would first send a letter to the mayor of the city where you reside and direct them to close your bank account < 1340966366 900896 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :until you have been jailed and all your properties will be confiscated by the fbi." < 1340966390 660874 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :" We would also send a letter to the company/agency that you are working for so that < 1340966390 826224 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :they could get you fired until we are through with our investigations because a suspect is not suppose to be working for the government or any private organization. < 1340966390 977589 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : " < 1340966468 8501 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/4170733 < 1340966481 718013 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, I hate pastie. < 1340966485 98891 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Next pastebin? < 1340966549 779865 :neutrino2000!~neutrino@ppp-188-174-120-172.dynamic.mnet-online.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1340966549 931089 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've sort of lazily defaulted to sprunge. < 1340966580 808504 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've gotten that one too. < 1340966585 48553 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or at least one very much like it. < 1340966596 247166 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastebin.com/f7Bi93pT < 1340966614 90639 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1340966619 895474 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :pastebin.com sucks < 1340966623 227248 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :sprunge is really nice though < 1340966626 158894 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :full of ads < 1340966634 983199 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, ads? < 1340966640 69364 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are ads on the internet? < 1340966645 511722 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(yay for adblock!) < 1340966659 549362 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION rolls eyes
< 1340966663 394926 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, at least it linewraps < 1340966666 887828 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: http://p.zem.fi/ikvv < 1340966671 28182 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, that isn't a good thing < 1340966682 328173 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linewrapping is just a |fmt|sprunge in place of |sprunge. < 1340966682 899775 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, spam? < 1340966693 355273 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Spam for a spam, that's the rule. < 1340966694 159837 :Gregor!codu@codu.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1340966694 311173 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :why are you pasting spam? < 1340966706 107540 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no TOPIC #esoteric :Where we decide just how much you can shoot someone, and their little dog too. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | This is what the bfjoust hill will look like under the new scoring system: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=XEWnVMg8 < 1340966708 41555 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: i was completely unaware that adblock existed. thank you for telling me about it, it proves that you are the more intelligent person and more knowledgable in the ways of the world < 1340966709 339841 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently, Vorpal has me on ignore < 1340966717 817511 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, ... < 1340966723 963549 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, no? < 1340966736 260258 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, I just connected to my bouncer < 1340966744 901671 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. Read scrollup then < 1340966749 103496 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and for some reason scrollback replay is broken... < 1340966751 701712 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh < 1340966754 402160 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Read logs then < 1340966756 307054 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have to investigate that later < 1340966761 235994 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and read logs for now yeah < 1340966794 934904 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : This spam reads like something some kid would threaten [...] <-- okay why were you pasting spam? And why were you reading spam to begin with? < 1340966818 768052 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I read some spam every now and then. < 1340966829 504197 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, mine's better. They're also offering me money, apparently. < 1340966851 545098 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm under investigation and being offered compensatory money < 1340966853 22406 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think < 1340966853 173573 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's spam on the internet? lolololol, i use spamblock and I will tell everyone about it whenever spam is mentioned < 1340966874 175175 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you know I don't use Windows either? < 1340966879 73860 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i don't own a TV < 1340966885 958067 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, it's good to check Spam folder occasionally (just in case), but some spam caught my eye < 1340966911 862311 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: It's not exactly "yours", I have had it too. Anyway, you must've not read "mine" very carefully: "-- the only funds that was entitled to you of which the FBI has been given the necessary order to necessitate the transfer is the compensation funds which is valued at the sum of $20million usd that was issued to by the Nigerian Government to compensate you for the embarrassment and insults ... < 1340966917 868318 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :... to your personality --" < 1340966923 193591 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, eh, gmail is pretty good at spam filtering < 1340966935 49549 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, oh, oops < 1340966964 248493 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though to be honest, it's not exactly an offer, more of an aside. < 1340967148 419558 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, there seems to be a reasonable amount of this spam which sort of presupposes a pre-existing relationship with some other spammers. < 1340967191 35886 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :does anyone actually fall for spam? < 1340967220 237158 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't see how they can make money out of it < 1340967220 777356 :AnotherTest!~Test@94-224-18-137.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1340967230 416849 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because I got one from the "bank insider" the people I was "conversing with" were going to use for the actual money transfer, warning me that those people are but scammers and haven't paid him his agreed-upon $10k yet. (But he was willing to make a deal directly with me.) < 1340967255 568785 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It sort of assumes that the recipient is in the middle of doing some deal with some other spammers. < 1340967575 976784 :AnotherTest!~Test@94-224-18-137.access.telenet.be PART :#esoteric < 1340967704 598979 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : Well, /r/nostalgia thinks I'm a spammer <-- um you mean an actual moderator thinks so? or just the automatic spam filter? or just stupid commenters? < 1340967721 80855 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :if #2, ask a moderator to fix it. < 1340967726 686626 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i hear.) < 1340967746 312540 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, #1 < 1340967778 240672 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1340967904 970018 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah some people called me a spammer for posting links to my own blog on reddit < 1340967915 446596 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though i was posting original content and my blog has no ads < 1340967947 134799 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :substantial content too, not the usual "17 weird old tricks to make you a Real Programmer" < 1340967961 115353 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :which constitutes the majority of /r/programming < 1340968109 852749 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, Dwarf Fortress has a randomly generated subtitle too < 1340968122 792023 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in addition to "Slaves to Armok: God of Blood: Chapter II: Dwarf Fortress" < 1340968157 911409 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that was a reference to a particular type of online ad, so it will be lost on you more evolved specimins of mankind who use adblock) < 1340968196 116254 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Adblock Plus is a memory hog < 1340968291 231199 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@178235038077.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1340968475 661088 :neutrino2000!~neutrino@ppp-188-174-120-172.dynamic.mnet-online.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1340968477 589579 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: hey, reddit _thanks_ me for not using adblock. too bad i never click them except by accident. < 1340968544 304768 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(most of my ad clicking happens when i try to get a particularly crowded page into focus) < 1340970377 175102 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :o.O < 1340970421 982544 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :On UniversityOfReddit, sending a message that contains the words manhoodacademy or manhood101 is an instaban < 1340970471 837818 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :As is attempting to make a course with either of those in the description, but that's not as alarming < 1340970494 475826 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-221-74.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1340970513 471791 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://github.com/ureddit/ureddit/commit/3161d6f1e6a2660914f511b027f8a9c090469c76 < 1340970652 639564 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, so apparently manhoodacademy and manhood101 are actually existing mysogenistic things < 1340970686 983144 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But even mentioning the word in a private message equating to a ban seems extreme < 1340970719 259579 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: one webpage i wrote that kept getting hits was just a rant < 1340970758 359056 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but TBH i haven't had a web presence(tm) for 6 years or more < 1340970802 643782 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: wait, was that in response to something i said? < 1340970845 67596 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: sort of yeah. i just did this rant about anime and games and kung fu films once.. and it got 1000s of google hits < 1340970860 389489 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(over a period of time) < 1340970863 933505 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1340970926 752225 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Potatoes. < 1340971153 6461 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1340971154 789752 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: apples. < 1340971180 178237 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can compare them. < 1340971196 323427 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. just don't mix in any oranges. < 1340971293 238779 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Potatoes" 8 letters, vegetable, requires cooking, grows underground. "apples" 6 letters, fruit, directly edible, grows on trees. < 1340971394 565824 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sadly i defined fruits and vegetables instead of apples and potatoes i think < 1340971407 614156 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has eaten a potato raw before
< 1340971428 433303 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yipe < 1340971449 722110 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it tastes rather stronger than the boiled variety < 1340971477 552880 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: wasn't it a little bit too starchy? < 1340971482 610062 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: with skin? < 1340971488 900350 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :without skin :P < 1340971504 982136 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats pretty wild < 1340971523 998054 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :just don't eat the green parts >_< < 1340971533 296595 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can't even bear the taste of potato which is 70% cooked < 1340971549 923072 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure what "starchy" means, i think it was about the same consistency as a raw carrot or rutabaga < 1340971578 309734 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was pretty long ago, anyway < 1340971700 138572 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: i've eaten _boiled_ potatoes with skin, mind you. < 1340971758 991111 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's traditional not to peel them when they are very fresh < 1340971790 347818 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :same here. when you have "patates nouvelles" (new harvest potatoes), you don't peel them. < 1340971814 495022 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :"nypoteter" in norwegian < 1340971947 581602 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1340971973 481117 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1340972149 497682 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :this thar browser needs a killing < 1340972151 344473 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that's nice: the LaserJet 4650 and the LaserJet 5200 that we have in the closest print corner both just flat out refuse to print out the PDFs generated by SNCB's (the Belgian national railway company) "tickets online" system. Both just say "INSUFFICIENT MEMORY". < 1340972182 970710 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(They printed my full-page-150dpi-raster-image Gimp-produced PDFs just fine.) < 1340972192 557457 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And these have just text for the most part.) < 1340972228 533476 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1340972229 578725 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose I'll try to print out from Acrobat Reader, maybe it'll do a better PS conversion or something. < 1340972246 899481 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, i agree that skin-on is the way for mashed, baked, or even french fried potatos < 1340972250 919081 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :just makes the texture more interesting < 1340972300 619900 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe SNCB is using everyone's printers to do distributed computation < 1340972305 683100 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is distributing printer malware < 1340972336 878021 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The web thing was kind of horrible, and it took about two minutes for it to generate the PDF. So I suppose there's *something* going on in that PDF. < 1340972346 346557 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though the files are just 30 kilobytes or so. < 1340972352 954717 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't remember if PDF is capable of arbitrary computation < 1340972365 207907 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(other than the embedded Javascript feature, which the printer probably does not support) < 1340972377 319166 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc, Postscript is? < 1340972380 345005 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :my vague conception is that PDF is like "PostScript in normal form" < 1340972392 461678 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, postscript is a fairly general stack-based programming language < 1340972396 737478 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :writing postscript by hand can be fun < 1340972408 417842 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a vague feeling that they may have deliberately broken some of the general programming features. < 1340972422 737509 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I'm certain I'm not certain. < 1340972431 512437 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can send a postscript file to your printer which will make it print out the Game of Life, one generation per page, indefinitely < 1340972454 313476 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neat < 1340972470 428061 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should try implementing GoL in something at some point < 1340972481 759439 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I'm not good at visual stuff < 1340972492 208797 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean graphical output? < 1340972496 527341 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah < 1340972498 325294 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can just print to the terminal, or output a PPM file < 1340972499 899378 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :One PDF normalization I'm sure of is that they impose a strict page structure on it. For a general PostScript file, you can't really do "extract only page X". < 1340972507 917244 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ppm file? < 1340972518 532259 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And also, there needs to be some sort of UI, even if console based < 1340972528 141998 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :PPM is a super simple image format < 1340972528 557561 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want the user to be able to look around a randomly seeded infinite board < 1340972533 79689 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"[PostScript] can handle not just graphics, but standard features of programming languages such as if and loop commands. PDF is largely based on PostScript but simplified to remove flow control features like these, while graphics commands such as lineto remain." < 1340972533 881647 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: these "new potatoes" are skin-on boiled, though. < 1340972536 333924 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://netpbm.sourceforge.net/doc/ppm.html < 1340972548 484386 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: oh, well if you actually want a GUI that's harder (but not that hard) < 1340972562 699932 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can probably find like 10 Game of Life examples for any GUI framework you like < 1340972591 781641 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure how I'm going to make tradeoffs < 1340972615 414180 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i coded a game of life thing that runs on a 128 × 48 red LED display < 1340972620 69813 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I can't store every single calculated cell (which is why I'm not going to just use Haskell's built-in laziness) < 1340972629 922415 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i made a few unusual design choices < 1340972645 59806 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, these PDFs are "(SECURED)". Maybe that has something to do with the problems. Though one (out of 11) printed out with just the background image lacking, so maybe not. < 1340972648 334781 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Going to need to make my own laziness, with forgetting < 1340972654 103940 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :both edges of the grid wrap to the opposite edge, but with reflection, so it's a projective plane < 1340972663 179091 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or almost, because i didn't really do anything sensible at the corners) < 1340972687 843580 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the way it keeps the display interesting is that occasionally it will spawn a glider in a random position < 1340972703 556852 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, easy constraint: Under no circumstances should the user be able to cause an inconsistency < 1340972712 223630 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Saying "Out of memory" is preferable < 1340972720 451842 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION printed a mandelbrot set with postscript once
< 1340972731 29115 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :This silly thing inserts a photo, and then four copies of a summary of the ticket as totally unreadable red, yellow, blue and green texts on top of the photo. I have no idea what purpose that serves. < 1340972743 842954 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think IFS fractals are very easy in postscript < 1340972744 659466 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :took a long time. and wasn't very good being only black and white. < 1340972744 810456 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except to make a real ugly mess if someone prints this thing with a black-and-white printer, I suppose. < 1340972771 167595 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wrote a TI-83 BASIC program to render a mandelbrot set in 4-level greyscale < 1340972775 129533 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it took about an hour < 1340972802 493194 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, I think I wrote one too except for TI-86 and black-and-white. < 1340972824 19016 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't really get grayscale output (well, except with dithering) out of TI-86 basic, anyway, since it requires some interrupt handling. < 1340972831 392305 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no builtin greyscale support in TI-83 BASIC, but you could flip between saved images with speed just barely good enough < 1340972836 388490 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1340972839 377898 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this was on the 83+, the 83 might be too slow) < 1340972856 659610 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a feeling 86 would be also too slow since the saved images actually copy the data. < 1340972868 658132 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Normally you'd just flip the starting address of the display buffer. < 1340972910 641201 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sadly, I don't think it has a POKE. < 1340972934 129999 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Or a translates-to-'out' either.) < 1340972938 844692 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I wonder what format the TI-83+ uses for fractional numbers < 1340973012 889410 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The TI-86 floats are ten-bytes-or-so BCD floats, and the ROM routines are incredibly horribly slow. (I don't know about the fractionals, it's pretty iffy in TI-86 at all.) < 1340973160 713230 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seven bytes of BCD digits, two-byte biased exponent with some arbitrary range restriction, and one type/flag byte to denote sign and real/complex. < 1340973243 712703 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :weird < 1340973275 583522 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if I recall correctly, the UI will only ever show up to 12 digits of the mantissa. < 1340973357 539526 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got into an argument about this on an "introduction to computer architecture" (or something) course. < 1340973406 301691 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The person doing the lecturing -- I think a temporary substitute -- just plain refused to believe there was any system in the world that used a non-binary floating point format. < 1340973457 149154 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :A bit weird since even IEEE-754 defindes the decimal32, decimal64 and decimal128 formats. < 1340973497 459178 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Those aren't BCD, though.) < 1340973608 518325 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : The TI-86 floats are ten-bytes-or-so BCD floats, and the ROM routines are incredibly horribly slow. (I don't know about the fractionals, it's pretty iffy in TI-86 at all.) <-- it did fp in software?! < 1340973612 699574 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :that just sounds stupid < 1340973618 855661 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :for a calculator I mean < 1340973633 338176 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Z80 does not exactly have an FPU. And those cost big bucks. < 1340973641 927988 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not like the calculation speed was all *that* important. < 1340973651 678009 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, why do they use them for calculators... < 1340973657 637987 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the battery life? < 1340973666 717941 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :my TI-83+ has exceptional battery life after all < 1340973713 938047 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't have hardware integer multiplication or division either, for that matter. < 1340973730 830880 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, iirc you can put asm into basic programs on the 83+ < 1340973739 615351 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't remember the details though < 1340973792 460140 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you interpret that *just* right, you can do that on the 86 too, because you can write hex-encoded machine code into a program with the BASIC editor, put a suitable keyword at start, and then "compile" that. < 1340973803 208115 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't have any sort of "inline ASM" though. < 1340973813 101610 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or an assembler that'd do mnemonics. < 1340973820 678735 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you have to be kind of masochistic. < 1340973850 378417 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Unless it's a very short program.) < 1340973866 458282 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess you could use that to make a "POKE" program you could call. < 1340973878 783291 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh a fan in my desktop revved up from the lowest speed. Just for a couple of seconds. That never happened before... All the fans usually run at the lowest speed even when under heavy load < 1340973942 637847 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dust buildup is the main cause for higher fan speeds for me. Especially the fan exhaust grill seems to collect quite a lot of it. < 1340973982 956431 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I cleaned the case like two weeks ago, normally I would clean it in August next time. Also the intakes have dust filters < 1340973985 926173 :augur!~augur@206.196.184.127 JOIN :#esoteric < 1340973988 282988 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway I think it was the GPU fan < 1340974013 603601 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I managed to get it to repeat by doing the same thing again and I observed all the other fan values < 1340974017 564713 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and none of those changed < 1340974025 772961 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :trying to remember how to get the GPU fan speed atm < 1340974040 823011 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, could be PSU I guess < 1340974045 172998 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that's nice; now I printed one of the 11 tickets from acroread, and it no longer accepts mouse clicks. < 1340974047 124304 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't observe that speed < 1340974072 395077 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : If you interpret that *just* right, you can do that on the 86 too, because you can write hex-encoded machine code into a program with the BASIC editor, put a suitable keyword at start, and then "compile" that. <-- ah yes, that is how it works < 1340974088 637934 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i did write some small machine language programs, assembled by hand < 1340974105 696111 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway with the 83+ you can transfer programs from a computer < 1340974122 548113 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :all of the TI graphing calculators have that ability < 1340974128 688682 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, not the 86 iirc? < 1340974132 665182 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :really? < 1340974138 375559 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :not 100% sure < 1340974145 750218 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I thought it lacked the link port completely < 1340974151 255524 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope < 1340974152 933813 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :might have been some other model < 1340974156 999582 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :What? No, it has one. < 1340974161 756394 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh okay < 1340974191 946774 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :All the TI-8x's I know of do. Though the 85 had some awkwardness when it came to asm programs. < 1340974201 493630 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1340974207 401118 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you needed to be running a shell, you couldn't just invoke them from the normal thing. < 1340974208 782892 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :So why not just make a program that goes under the APPS button. IIRC they run directly from flash or something? < 1340974210 986868 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or something like that. < 1340974219 583631 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: you can do that too < 1340974243 123131 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the TI-86 doesn't have that though < 1340974267 383922 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor does the 85 or the 83 (non-plus) < 1340974272 261530 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, the odd thing about the fan is that Trine 2 caused it. And it was on the screen between chapters where it just shows some text and some hand drawn artwork < 1340974280 198404 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :so uh, not sure why that makes the GPU rev up < 1340974294 677246 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :normal 3D rendered Trine 2 gameplay doesn't as far as I can tell < 1340974304 486482 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, ah < 1340974324 472084 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :they didn't have flash, just ROM and a small amount of RAM < 1340974335 827402 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Small?! It's 128 KB in TI-86. < 1340974341 638426 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's like double the processor address space. < 1340974353 993535 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :also flash apps are signed and i don't remember how annoying it was to get a signing key as some random person < 1340974358 862888 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whether you could load unsigned apps < 1340974375 258410 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :They've bruteforced the system keys so you can flash in a custom OS, though. < 1340974385 15006 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1340974459 193193 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is an xkcd strip mocking TI for not upgrading their hardware < 1340974462 608033 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but as usual xkcd misses the point < 1340974480 901657 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, regarding "transfer from computer", at least on the TI-86 the computer link cable is not part of the standard accessories, you have to buy it separately. (Or build your own.) < 1340974481 604241 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's make fun of people for not jumping on shiny new tech, while ignoring the actual application requirements < 1340974503 145597 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: what do you mean? most models don't sell with a link cable < 1340974514 498288 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay. I thought they might've made it a standard thing. < 1340974517 50156 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/vs5hw/you_guys_are_fucking_champions/ < 1340974525 843349 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :some of the newer ones have a USB link cable built in < 1340974528 103975 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"/r/atheism has turned me from not only being religious but also from being an asshole into a caring and tolerant person." < 1340974531 795686 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :god damn it, I almost managed 100% completion on Trine 2 (I have done 100% on Trine 1 of course), but there are two experience orbs that I can't find... < 1340974536 448799 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Think you were browsing some other /r/atheism, mate. < 1340974539 977803 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :other than that, I'm 100% complete < 1340974550 986273 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :afaik you can use the standard black link cable or grey link cable with the TI-86 < 1340974586 462565 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : let's make fun of people for not jumping on shiny new tech, while ignoring the actual application requirements <-- I wouldn't mind a faster CPU. Try plotting something more advanced than a polynomial equation on the TI-83+. It can be painfully slow < 1340974617 857247 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, officially; you can also use something that costs $5 (in parts) that you make. < 1340974632 728268 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh < 1340974633 921174 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :dear < 1340974637 697514 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: sure, the 83+ is the low end calculator anyway < 1340974640 645658 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have found the worst reddit post < 1340974644 412386 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : fizzie: what do you mean? most models don't sell with a link cable <-- mine sold with a Black Link. Of course, I don't have a serial port nowdays on my main computer (I keep an old dell laptop around for that, and that alone) < 1340974645 658466 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: doubtful < 1340974650 248371 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though some standard 2.5mm plugs don't quite fit the link port. < 1340974652 398088 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/vs5hw/you_guys_are_fucking_champions/c578bj2 < 1340974714 908876 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The black is (IIRC) slightly more picky when it comes to serial ports, too, since it doesn't do translation between RS-232 and the TI protocol internally, but expects software to toggle the port lines appropriately. < 1340974717 614397 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, the TI-83+ has awesome battery time though < 1340974746 887918 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, so no USB converter? < 1340974766 555039 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: yeah < 1340974773 8128 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a feeling it might not be so friendly to USB serial ports, right. < 1340974776 456456 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though YMMV. < 1340974776 608074 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: yeah, with the grey cable you could connect directly to a modem < 1340974830 444662 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i used a grey link cable and a big stack of adapters to connect to a Ricochet modem < 1340974837 689071 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i could log into my Linux machine wirelessly from my TI-83+ < 1340974847 303927 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was pretty entertaining < 1340974876 134457 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, my motherboard actually has serial in my desktop. However it doesn't have the port, that is an add-on, you put the addon in an empty PCI hole (just the hole at the back of the computer, not the actual PCI slot itself) then you connect a cable from that to the motherboard < 1340974877 307237 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The TI link protocol is kind of funny, anyway; it doesn't really have a set clock speed. < 1340974882 143608 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :weird way to do it IMO < 1340974899 187674 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know, it would be pretty easy to put wireless hardware inside a TI calculator case, and use this to cheat on the SAT etc. < 1340974911 938778 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: that's pretty common < 1340974921 266321 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, yeah but why < 1340974921 627493 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :saves space on the motherboard backplane itself < 1340974940 765745 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's something most people don't use anyway < 1340974942 916256 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, there is space left over there (which is pretty amazing given how many ports this thing has) < 1340974948 136937 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and maybe you can charge extra for the port < 1340974957 374459 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I guess there is that yeah < 1340974971 343111 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it's not just a matter of physical space, you also need to route the electrical connections to it < 1340974972 739243 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can charge extra for spares after people invariably lose the one that comes in the motherboard box. < 1340974986 786604 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, there isn't one in the box though= < 1340974990 391290 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/=/?/ < 1340974992 551463 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :motherboards seem to use standard connector blocks with, like, one parallel port above 3 audio ports, or something < 1340974994 457078 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. Well, in that case, especially. < 1340975007 702526 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the standard block you need containing a serial port isn't cheaply available, you use the extra slot solution instead < 1340975011 81310 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, I haven't had a parallel port in ages... < 1340975017 947015 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION recently bought a machine specifically with a parallel port
< 1340975022 993596 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :why < 1340975031 661676 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have a CNC laser cutter which is controlled via parallel port < 1340975038 846372 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1340975042 950209 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The extra port headers seem to be kind of de-facto standardized, though, so you don't need to get the manufacturer's own extra port slot-cover thing. < 1340975044 596881 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's controlled via parallel port because it's the cheapest crappiest CNC laser cutter you can buy < 1340975044 957111 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :are there USB converters for such? < 1340975054 585131 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so they just have stepper motors wired up to a parallel port < 1340975062 924435 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1340975068 624569 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :so not proper parallel protocol? < 1340975073 290995 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :no definitely not < 1340975074 217853 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Parallel ports are probably the easiest to directly wire things to. < 1340975084 902755 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about the voltages? < 1340975089 430410 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :One of the DIY link cables does that. (The other model goes to serial port.) < 1340975089 925709 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are USB to parallel adapters, but you can't use them as a general purpose extremely low latency I/O interface < 1340975096 419292 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know serial has some crazy high voltages < 1340975102 12174 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: what about them < 1340975118 991044 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, does parallel ports have like 12 V or so too for the signal? < 1340975124 951047 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc that is what standard serial port has < 1340975137 222689 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :either that or 5V < 1340975138 155324 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you get +5V out of the data lines, actually. < 1340975139 751059 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i remember reading a proposal that Beowulf clusters should connect the machines together with parallel port, in addition to gigabit ethernet < 1340975141 821670 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I might misremember. < 1340975146 952263 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, pretty crazy high still < 1340975151 488373 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :using the parallel port for extremely low latency communication < 1340975152 816327 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the parallel port, that is.) < 1340975184 333315 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: 5V is the standard TTL logic level < 1340975194 453326 :augur!~augur@206.196.184.127 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1340975196 265566 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1340975205 111601 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION prepares to stab someone who complains about "redundant" acronyms
< 1340975208 729562 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are the data line voltages in things like USB? < 1340975213 70139 :augur!~augur@206.196.184.127 JOIN :#esoteric < 1340975218 298597 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :USB uses differential signaling < 1340975233 448106 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, right < 1340975237 598180 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :RS-232 seems to require anything from 3 to 15 volts. (And -3V to -15V for the other bit.) < 1340975239 71110 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :so extremely low then < 1340975252 854247 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that low < 1340975256 104822 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1340975275 450725 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :thought you could get like less than 1 V with differential? < 1340975308 578629 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"On low and full speed devices, a differential ‘1’ is transmitted by pulling D+ over 2.8V with a 15K ohm resistor pulled to ground and D- under 0.3V with a 1.5K ohm resistor pulled to 3.6V. A differential ‘0’ on the other hand is a D- greater than 2.8V and a D+ less than 0.3V with the same appropriate pull down/up resistors." < 1340975320 762324 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :that much, heh < 1340975322 601537 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: just because you can doesn't mean they do it that way < 1340975327 285206 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know what the other design considerations are < 1340975352 219513 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, full speed? Is that USB 2.0 or USB 1.1? < 1340975356 33435 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't remember < 1340975370 69575 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :low is USB 1.0, full USB 1.1 right? < 1340975376 458626 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1340975382 216345 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what is USB 2 then? fuller? < 1340975384 913254 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :high speed < 1340975388 641577 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1340975394 64736 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :forgot what they called USB 3 as well < 1340975404 682298 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean USB 2.0 is a version of the spec, that supports all three speeds < 1340975408 283716 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :afaik < 1340975412 291402 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes < 1340975415 711106 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about USB 3 then? < 1340975417 334193 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the fastest speed available in USB 2.0 is called "high speed" < 1340975418 408744 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno man < 1340975419 506602 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :look it up < 1340975439 910056 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that anything uses it yet as far as I can tell. My desktop has USB 3 connectors, but I don't have any peripherals with USB 3 support < 1340975451 40997 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can definitely get hard drive enclosures which support it < 1340975462 453255 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, and that is about it I guess < 1340975478 729430 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kind of surprises me that my new fancy phone didn't do USB 3 < 1340975487 915732 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe external monitors/video cards < 1340975489 186837 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, it is Samsung's flagship model after all < 1340975496 397013 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe manufacturers are skipping USB 3.0 for Thunderbolt < 1340975510 653512 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh, has anyone except apple adopted that? < 1340975520 957747 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :dude the entire PC industry is based on copying whatever Apple does < 1340975531 586272 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they have a huge market share by themselves < 1340975539 590938 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes, but I thought they had some exclusive deal on thunderbolt? < 1340975543 378426 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :they were the first to take the plunge with USB < 1340975554 574099 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the success of USB today is largely due to the iMac < 1340975559 661449 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know < 1340975564 690028 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had a first generation ibook < 1340975573 179201 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still think I have that USB floppy drive somewhere XD < 1340975576 59374 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :cause Apple had the guts and the customer loyalty to say "suck it, this is how shit connects now" < 1340975584 239456 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(because then you actually needed floppies still, and apple had dropped it) < 1340975588 18389 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1340975638 30900 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the earlier subject of printer hacks, you can change the text on the LCD display of a HP printer with an unauthenticated packet < 1340975646 532344 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have used this for both legitimate and prank purposes < 1340975716 917227 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, USB ones? < 1340975723 816298 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, network printers < 1340975763 773148 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1340975808 534393 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was printer czar for the house where i lived in college < 1340975816 442807 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? < 1340975825 876832 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean with that? < 1340975835 275485 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :meaning i was in charge of buying printer supplies, and yelling at people for printing too much < 1340975859 10662 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: It's "SuperSpeed" for USB 3. (Really.) < 1340975863 150895 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1340975872 701400 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what they're going to go with USB 4. HyperSpeed? < 1340975873 612659 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i wrote a script which would scrape the supply levels from the web interface, then calculate how much we were spending per page printed, and put it on the display < 1340975890 236397 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :in hopes that people would see it as they pick up their job and would feel guilty < 1340975893 375772 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :which probably never happened < 1340975898 448987 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I think low-speed and full-speed are both part of USB 1.0 already. < 1340975911 424931 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :we had one guy who was in the habit of printing a 300 page math textbook, single-sided, and then immediately losing it < 1340975922 448679 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think he eventually got banned from 8 different computer labs < 1340975974 771353 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just printed 30 sheets, most of them in color. Now I feel guilty. < 1340976020 933340 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, at work or at home? < 1340976034 768056 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :At work, since there's only a black-and-white laser at home. < 1340976039 683804 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1340976083 964968 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :MIT has a new system, where you print to a single campus-wide virtual printer < 1340976089 662543 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Didn't want to start dabbling with drying-up inks or whatever, what used to happen with our previous very-little-used DeskJet thing. < 1340976124 392069 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then you walk to a printer, scan your ID, and it prints the job there < 1340976136 579604 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a famous bit in some MS TechNote or such about the benefits of adding printers at different physical locations into the same print queue, because your users will then get more exercise. < 1340976217 793694 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin PRIVMSG #esoteric :we did that at my school < 1340976247 451110 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1340976248 79793 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's pretty convenient < 1340976275 572622 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was somewhat controversial at MIT < 1340976280 993406 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah? < 1340976286 43145 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone even vandalized a few of the stations < 1340976291 632123 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1340976298 914545 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess people don't want to wait around at the printer < 1340976310 93067 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did reverse the protocol and find the password was symmetrically encrypted, and we had open wifi < 1340976333 372884 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem it solves is people who print big jobs (intentionally or by accident) and then don't pick them up < 1340976336 794781 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :copumpkin: heh < 1340976338 795536 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1340976364 808415 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was kind of awkward if you had to wait behind someone printing something large, or you were printing something large just before class and a bunch of people needed their assignments < 1340976379 749165 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I usually walk to the printer and type in "lpr -Pfoo file" with SSH over the phone just to be there when things print. (The printers do have some sort of "wait until the user types a passcode" features, but I don't think those are all that likely to work.) < 1340976382 664506 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is why profs should accept assignments by emailed pdf :) < 1340976388 326297 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin PRIVMSG #esoteric :many did < 1340976397 641407 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there are always the old-school profs :) < 1340976399 444705 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1340976419 98071 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :we would often pick one person who would print out and hand in everyone's assignments < 1340976430 150406 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that everyone else could sleep through class after an all-nighter < 1340976433 211728 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really healthy behavior... < 1340976489 339571 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1340976499 548941 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I accepted weekly exercise solutions by email or on paper, and there was an approximate 50%/50% split. (Though majority of returned papers were handwritten, since they were mostly mathy.) < 1340977023 812199 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, when i said "emailed pdf" i should have said "push to a git repository" ;) < 1340977039 54605 :augur!~augur@206.196.184.127 QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1340977107 796475 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't you mean "add to the Visual SourceSafe library"? < 1340977119 394221 :augur!~augur@206.196.184.127 JOIN :#esoteric < 1340977162 978809 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't VSS a joke < 1340977166 168974 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean microsoft doesn't use it < 1340977214 345104 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's just because they generously want to save all its powers to their customers. < 1340977252 617688 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also I think it got discontinued and replaced by Team Foundation Something Or Other. < 1340977273 554874 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but does it have sharepoint integration =D < 1340977693 626840 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : so that everyone else could sleep through class after an all-nighter <-- from what I seen at university, most comp sci students were pretty study focused and would never have skipped class. < 1340977728 458153 :yorick_!~yorick@unaffiliated/yorick NICK :yorick < 1340977730 597633 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :personally I only skipped a total of 2 days during my three years at university. And that was when I had influenza. < 1340977807 972641 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well at my school skipping classes was extremely common < 1340977819 912411 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1340977840 937164 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not called skipping if one has a legitimate reason such as illness, is it? Then it's just missing class. < 1340977847 385920 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :in most upper level CS classes, most of your grade is projects, with exams a smaller portion, and even the exams are take-home < 1340977870 494542 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you're better off spending that time on the projects, and maybe reading through lecture slides when you get a chance < 1340977879 657251 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, people in general do skip lectures here, too. Not all, of course. < 1340977889 31991 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :in many cases the lectures were pretty useless for getting the projects done < 1340977918 246759 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that said i and my friends skipped more classes than was probably advisable < 1340977948 545614 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : It's not called skipping if one has a legitimate reason such as illness, is it? Then it's just missing class. <-- well yeah < 1340977953 50248 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl < 1340977964 288886 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The majority (or that's at least how it felt like) of our later classes were in the "seminar" format. (I.e. one or two introductory lectures, then each participant has a topic, some papers, then gives a lecture about it to the others.) < 1340978002 697398 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, those and some amount of project-based things. But not terribly many "classic" lecture-based things. Or maybe I've just tuned them out. < 1340978080 105299 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The parallel computation seminar assigned one or two chapters of a book to each participants, because the prof hadn't managed to motivate himself to read the book otherwise, but he wanted to. (Or that's what he said, anyway.) < 1340978095 143438 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/parallel computation/distributed systems/, sorry. < 1340978114 187582 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember my chapter had stuff about election in hypercube networks or something very interesting like that. < 1340978127 417961 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1340978132 854325 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, if the prof can't motivate himself to read the book, then why should the students? < 1340978150 348938 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it was rumoured to be a good book. < 1340978160 426511 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :then why wasn't he motivated < 1340978164 124527 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel the logic is flawed < 1340978175 506067 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Too busy, I'd say, based on who he was. < 1340978182 930814 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fair enough < 1340978200 962028 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :He used to reply to student question emails at 03am during the Saturday/Sunday night. < 1340978209 844841 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :riiight < 1340978225 965994 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :A kind of a personality. :p < 1340978242 308999 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess you could say that < 1340978246 406951 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :From the viewpoint of the students, I guess course credits are a powerful motivator too. < 1340978290 92150 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :A hypercube is a nice shape. You can (obviously) reach everyone in at most log_2(N) hops. < 1340978305 608118 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, did he get burned out btw from working like that? < 1340978308 704995 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :wouldn't surprise me < 1340978312 920280 :Tod-Autojoined!~Tod@166-70-93-209.ip.xmission.com NICK :TodPunk < 1340978321 647642 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, he's still around. Was the head of the department for some time, too. < 1340978326 556040 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1340978933 520496 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk JOIN :#esoteric < 1340979196 817541 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1340980145 472352 :MDoze!~fyrc@67.232.231.10 JOIN :#esoteric < 1340980284 701528 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh, NFC is badly designed. Why haven't they learnt anything from previous systems... < 1340980307 228182 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :MITM is super easy with the right equipment apparently... < 1340980829 448935 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: (disclaimer: all of my common disclaimers) the lack of indefinite positive feedback in intelligence enables newcomers to succeed and older ones to suffer entropy < 1340980948 677727 :MDoze!~fyrc@67.232.231.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What? < 1340980971 585801 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like how IBM was able to make lots of computers but they lost to bill gates who was only good for writing basic interpreters < 1340981028 410895 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry? < 1340981047 68046 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :microsoft is more successful than ibm right? < 1340981052 46722 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And compilers... < 1340981056 294860 :MDoze!~fyrc@67.232.231.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see what that has to do with near-feild communicaiton's vuilerability to man-in-the-middle attacks. < 1340981076 241238 :MDoze!~fyrc@67.232.231.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or if there was any other related conversation before I joined. < 1340981088 896405 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :MDoze, no it wasn't < 1340981092 145023 :MDoze!~fyrc@67.232.231.10 NICK :MDude < 1340981187 824161 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :suppose you had a company like IBM in manufacturing and in the space of a few decades a silly little contract or whatever about dos eventually led another company to outgrow you < 1340981198 793519 :MDude!~fyrc@67.232.231.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think IBM got less successfulll than Micrisoft because they allowed all those knockoffs of thier design. < 1340981225 513415 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :im being extremely arbitrary and avoiding research or reality < 1340981238 123533 :MDude!~fyrc@67.232.231.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Intel similarly is making bank, I think. < 1340981246 230254 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the whole windows vs. OS/2 thing < 1340981278 902085 :MDude!~fyrc@67.232.231.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Was OS/2 very backwards compatible? < 1340981286 91289 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure < 1340981292 931105 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :its like.. decades of success in an industry can be toppled by these trivialities < 1340981295 842203 :MDude!~fyrc@67.232.231.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because that's the main thing WIndows has had for it. < 1340981298 802222 :fizziew!~htkallas@pc112.ics.hut.fi QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1340981364 926203 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :MDude, I don't think there was a single reason for OS/2 failing, rather it was a combination of many things < 1340981384 109932 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, theory: the number of assassination attempts Hitler survived is proof that time travel exists, yet is incapable of changing history < 1340981386 917314 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :including some bad business decisions on IBMs part and some really good ones from MS < 1340981387 800716 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm calling it entropy ^_^ < 1340981390 514815 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless I misremember < 1340981396 270373 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :going back in time to kill Hitler is probably one of the most common uses for time machines < 1340981408 489062 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, how many did he survive? < 1340981479 38715 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I presume you meant hypothesis, not theory < 1340981509 609351 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, in the information theory sense? Or the physical sense? < 1340981540 917850 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: not sure. just in the sense that they had to fail eventually < 1340981541 284349 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and if the latter, how is thermodynamics related to this?) < 1340981553 188567 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, I don't think that is an existing sense of the word < 1340981589 672859 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe companies never have to fail < 1340981601 737685 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's all arbitrary < 1340981630 974781 :MDude!~fyrc@67.232.231.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :IBM is still around, though. < 1340981638 363008 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a good point < 1340981640 543587 :MDude!~fyrc@67.232.231.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And even made that Jeopardy machine. < 1340981668 16622 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty sure failing is a result of bad management in most of the time. Also they can recover from it. And there can be external factors (a mining company runs out of ore in the current vein) < 1340981679 788948 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok i think i'm working on the basis that the only way to say something novel is to lie < 1340981684 98905 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :so no I don't think a company will inherently fail < 1340981841 21654 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i get bored or restless and open the irc clickable bitmap. < 1340981848 423172 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is that < 1340981854 728253 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :its a bitmap you can click on! < 1340981866 265245 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :gestures triumphantly < 1340981875 90399 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1340981902 524775 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then, of all possible things i can say everything true has already been said, or is obvious < 1340981914 960194 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i lie < 1340981950 676552 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i start inventing uses for words like entropy < 1340981981 692845 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1340982001 951092 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ridiculous ideas like that there is some law governing when businesses fail < 1340982021 113440 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i use examples of successful businesses to show where businesses have failed < 1340982037 918558 :MDude!~fyrc@67.232.231.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, I was curious more about what you meant by indefinite positive feedback on intelligence. < 1340982052 526946 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the rich get richer... < 1340982058 874839 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and? < 1340982065 142734 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was meaning the intelligent eventually stop getting more intelligent < 1340982126 447117 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but saying this is because of earthly mortality seems to be cheating < 1340982157 801992 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe a more realistic explanation is that people stagnate < 1340982175 289523 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but as i can see, it isn't a general rule < 1340982193 674788 :MDude!~fyrc@67.232.231.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It could be a problem of sheer proccessing power, at least partly. < 1340982212 282588 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :looking at NFC it is built upon RFID, which is only really interested in reading numbers from tags. Originally security was not an issue (it was used for logistics, identifying shipments and so on in warehouses and terminals and what not). A much larger issue was power usage in the tags. Since it worked well other uses started to appear. Some however turned out to be security sensitive. Oops. < 1340982231 513407 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then NFC was built on top of RFID... why? no idea < 1340982250 801276 :MDude!~fyrc@67.232.231.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because lazy, I would guess. < 1340982256 981726 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1340982283 185286 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it is the fact that money builds itself < 1340982289 499882 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :MDude, usages include bluetooth pairing by NFC. Works fine with standard antennas that have a range of centimeters, and that is what you find in phones. < 1340982304 819329 :MDude!~fyrc@67.232.231.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A complete lack of idea as to the reason we don't just use reprogrammible RFID tags in our phones for NFC was probably there too. < 1340982308 674813 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :MDude, now, if you instead use professional equipment you can get a range of a few meters against such a phone < 1340982310 565172 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :opps < 1340982312 199100 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops* < 1340982327 149735 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas, on a given day n, in order to become more knowledgable or skilful a person one must exert energy again, be motivated again < 1340982372 618321 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :MDude, and the communications are unencrypted. Encryption is up to the application level < 1340982380 757873 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is again fine for the original usage < 1340982405 270748 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(low power, possibly passive tags for logistics: you want something cheap and simple there. Yep) < 1340982488 180954 :MDude!~fyrc@67.232.231.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: So, to be suepr smart, it would make sense to devote some time into finding ways to get smarter faster? < 1340982524 934543 :MoALTz__!~no@host-92-8-159-6.as43234.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1340982609 28430 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :MDude, another early use was identifying cattle. Yeah I guess that is fine with RFID. Then several decades later someone decides to start doing payments with the technology. Oops. < 1340982616 612419 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :its probably difficult to find motivation eventually < 1340982618 862268 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-2-99-87-25.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1340982670 805568 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, this is all very interesting, but I don't think it really applies to NFC < 1340982671 531323 :MDude!~fyrc@67.232.231.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that what makes evil geniuses so smart, they've always got taking voer the world to look forward to. < 1340982674 393577 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-2-99-87-25.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello < 1340982690 594084 :MDude!~fyrc@67.232.231.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*that's < 1340982703 935776 :MDude!~fyrc@67.232.231.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also hi Taneb. < 1340982708 90610 :MoALTz_!~no@host-92-8-148-93.as43234.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1340982713 210908 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-2-99-87-25.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Am I allowed to say I'm well respected in the esoteric programming language community? < 1340982733 238559 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1340982734 834343 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION respects nobody
< 1340982768 737442 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :MDude: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_0codWCfcAsc/SlX3Ck35_HI/AAAAAAAAAzc/Qi1tr_mH_3M/s400/pinky_brain_x_22.jpg < 1340982795 53603 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, someone made an RFID tag that was 0.05mm x 0.05mm... (Though the range of that one was apparently only a few millimeters) < 1340982849 180170 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb, to whom? < 1340982862 585241 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-2-99-87-25.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, UCAS, and hence various universities in the UK < 1340983081 45321 :MDude!~fyrc@67.232.231.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd like to make an RFID tag that uses the bulkiest, most anachronistic components possible that also aren't too expensive. < 1340983128 561905 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :vaccuum tubes? < 1340983152 180181 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb, UCAS being? < 1340983154 521546 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :really awful < 1340983172 85291 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-2-99-87-25.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, body that handles university applications in the UK < 1340983196 363990 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb, why would you mention that to them? Isn't the only thing relevant for such applications your previous grades? < 1340983208 8542 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-2-99-87-25.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nah, there's loads < 1340983216 713937 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Sweden at least they only care about your grades < 1340983221 674897 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION used UCAS many moons ago
< 1340983227 582867 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-2-99-87-25.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically, I'm trying to demonstrate interest in the subject < 1340983236 370636 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-2-99-87-25.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the subject being, maths and computer science) < 1340983282 504132 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb, they work out a score between 1 and 20 depending on your grades in the Swedish equiv. of high school. I had 17.5 iirc, which is very good. < 1340983306 330744 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then they basically use that in a priority queue system < 1340983307 135993 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-2-99-87-25.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but seeing as I am neither in Sweden nor applying to a Swedish university, that isn't especially relevant < 1340983319 706627 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb, I'm just surprised every country doesn't do it that way < 1340983335 132232 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-2-99-87-25.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pretty much every country does it different < 1340983363 315048 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I expected the exact details to vary (different scoring algorithms, different ranges and so on) but not the general concept < 1340983392 955452 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-2-99-87-25.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe the Netherlands lets everyone in, and decides a year later < 1340983398 479584 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1340983436 597512 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1340983460 266888 :jix!~jix@jixco.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :copumpkin: since when are you in here? < 1340983462 227483 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(oh and there may of course be specific requirements for different programs at university, like I needed to have at least Mathematics D (I studied up to Mathematics E, which is as far as it goes)) < 1340983484 281767 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin PRIVMSG #esoteric :jix: I used to be in here a lot, and then forgot to rejoin when I redid my IRC client < 1340983493 470864 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin PRIVMSG #esoteric :and now I've started joining again < 1340983565 190085 :jix!~jix@jixco.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I wonder if we've met here before without me realizing < 1340983590 429207 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1340983636 302467 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-2-99-87-25.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, can I say I'm well respected in the esoteric programming community? < 1340983853 56978 :Guest34050!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :eys < 1340983857 279497 :Guest34050!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi NICK :oklopol < 1340983865 865066 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-2-99-87-25.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanks, oklopol < 1340983870 96034 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :why does nnscript insist on renaming me guest < 1340983903 217869 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps i need to suggest some alternatives < 1340983904 224304 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi NICK :oklofok < 1340983911 913910 :oklofok!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi NICK :oklodol < 1340983914 830785 :MDude!~fyrc@67.232.231.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it would make more sense to say your work on esoteric languages is generally admired in the community. < 1340983928 926841 :MDude!~fyrc@67.232.231.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since you could be respected on a personal level witohut really making anything. < 1340983936 707522 :oklodol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi NICK :okloblock < 1340983937 676213 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :like ESR! < 1340983941 830872 :MDude!~fyrc@67.232.231.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*without < 1340983974 573689 :okloblock!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i only respect him on a personal level, since i don't remember what his work is. < 1340983989 257664 :okloblock!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi NICK :oklopol < 1340984069 594133 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-2-99-87-25.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nandypants, Numberwang, MIBBLLII, Fueue, Brook, Constatinople, Luigi, Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download < 1340984071 332669 :jix!~jix@jixco.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :copumpkin: ah no, according to public logs you joined years after I was active a lot here < 1340984079 577175 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1340984101 414062 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-2-99-87-25.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only joined last year :( < 1340984172 101767 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin PRIVMSG #esoteric :jix: still do much bitcoining? < 1340984199 456106 :MDude!~fyrc@67.232.231.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You joined before I did, and thus "Forever ago". < 1340984202 891256 :jix!~jix@jixco.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :copumpkin: I use them from time to time to transfer value < 1340984208 286347 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1340984222 20842 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't bitcoin drop in value some time back < 1340984224 180900 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :like a lot < 1340984233 639147 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin PRIVMSG #esoteric :it moves a lot in general :) < 1340984234 649171 :jix!~jix@jixco.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not much beyond that... but for that they do their job pretty well < 1340984243 987210 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin PRIVMSG #esoteric :it got inflated way beyond what was reasonable < 1340984249 50568 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then the bubble burst < 1340984253 208722 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1340984338 255618 :MDude!~fyrc@67.232.231.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: Forever apparently being less than a month, according to the edit logs of our user pages. < 1340984359 189169 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-2-99-87-25.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1340984389 941939 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should LLVM have an instruction to test addition/subtraction overflow? < 1340984434 512346 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-2-99-87-25.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, are you on the LLVM development committee? < 1340984456 704925 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38 is on the everything committee < 1340984702 358862 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, isn't the usual solution that the CPU sets a flag in some flag register for that? < 1340984725 787019 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm I wonder how that works on VLIW architectures... One flag register per concurrent instruction? < 1340984742 182771 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :No I am not on the LLVM development committee. < 1340984763 596018 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, then would your opinion on this matter? It wouldn't affect LLVM development < 1340984763 794235 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Yes that is what I am thinking, usually the CPU sets a flag for it, but LLVM has no instruction to test that flag < 1340984815 209101 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps someone who is on LLVM can suggest it to them < 1340984841 967844 :jix!~jix@jixco.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :in theory a backend could detect the instrucion sequence that tests for overflows and produce code that uses the flags < 1340984936 472107 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :jix: Yes, like that, I mean < 1340985032 536744 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean there might be instructions "tsof" (test signed overflow) and "tuof" (test unsigned overflow) and then it points to an addition or subtraction instruction which has already been executed, and the result of this instruction will be of type i1 < 1340985035 275034 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION looks at the recent changes, sees an optimized set of images, and dazzled by the existence of enterbrainfuck
< 1340985080 446852 :jix!~jix@jixco.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: no I mean just using detecting the usual workarounds you do in C ((a + b) < b) for unsigned add for example and detecting the resulting instruction sequence < 1340985103 102368 :jix!~jix@jixco.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would not require a change to the llvm instruction set < 1340985119 496113 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does LLVM currently do for that bit of code? < 1340985144 359886 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what does gcc do? < 1340985151 802932 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least to me, I have found cases where I want to explicitly specify overflow test instruction < 1340985197 571186 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The optimizer could do the conversion from ((a + b) < b) to the tsof and tuof instructions < 1340985216 796480 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, "enterbrainfuck"? < 1340985220 938280 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see that on the wiki < 1340985228 559348 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah its on a userpage < 1340985233 61467 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :link < 1340985236 670434 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:FireFly/Enterbrainfuck < 1340985247 432932 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: It already has the llvm.uadd.with.overflow.i32 kind of intrinsics which "return" the result and an i1 about the overflow. < 1340985250 782109 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, i'll explain :-3 < 1340985252 108009 :jix!~jix@jixco.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: but if you keep the addition and comparision instructions (maybe with an annotation to mark them as belonging together (if llvm does support this)) you wouldn't break existing passes < 1340985283 60850 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: O, OK. < 1340985283 787354 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :enterbrain is a company that makes rpgmaker products. rpgmaker products contain a ruby scripting language. < 1340985378 611587 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is the kind of nonsense i would come up with, but far more intelligent than anything i would come up with < 1340985380 241123 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, I once wrote a small GOL simulation in the RPG blades of avernum (btw, the avernum series is amazing). I think it may only run on classical PPC Mac OS < 1340985395 745188 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :used floor tiles as the data storage < 1340985416 329218 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-2-99-87-25.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's it, I'm gonna make a brainfuck interpreter in Ren'Py < 1340985423 254652 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb, what is that < 1340985434 972946 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw I might fire up my old ibook and see if I still have that thing around < 1340985435 125596 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-2-99-87-25.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Visual novel creator with Python back-end < 1340985445 828477 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, how did you take screenshots on macs? I don't remember < 1340985462 268345 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :also... I don't currently have any surface to put the thing on < 1340985465 505153 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :so scratch that < 1340985476 483057 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-2-99-87-25.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I don't know how to use Ren'Py < 1340985501 949184 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway the size of it was limited due to the number of instructions you could execute per script event < 1340985509 32505 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i abanoned this ridiculous thing, but this is a picture i made the other day where i advocate using graphic tiles as symbols http://oi50.tinypic.com/29z9egm.jpg < 1340985510 834059 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :so iirc it was like a 30x30 GOL world < 1340985581 74152 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think the super mario bros tiles are so pretty to look at. maybe it's just the association with the games < 1340985782 873498 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and having destroyed the topic with my greedy post, i will back away < 1340985815 689708 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1340985899 787770 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Haskell (I have discussed this in #haskell channel yesterday), I have thought of (forall z. c z => (x -> z) -> z) and (forall z. c z => (z -> x, z)). The first one is right and the second one is left. Here I am using the methods and the mathematical laws of the class c. < 1340985980 580364 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps the names can be ClassCodensity for the right version and ClassDensity for the left version. < 1340986058 425097 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now for ClassCodensity, depending on the methods and laws of c: If it is a monoid, you get a list. If it is a semigroup, you get a non-empty list. If it is a commutative idempotent monoid, I think you get a set. < 1340986091 662166 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-2-99-87-25.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :First class classes? < 1340986136 788942 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is possible using constraint kind, although it can be done even without constraint kind. < 1340986176 88431 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :For ClassDensity, if c is Copeanoid then I would think you get a non-empty list comonad. < 1340986246 193513 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-2-99-87-25.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :class Class (c :: * -> *) < 1340986292 220077 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-2-99-87-25.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Monoid' :: Monoid m => m -> Monoid' m < 1340986303 518065 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-2-99-87-25.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't even know where I'm going with this < 1340986311 53526 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could even have something like this: data Monoid_ x where { Monoid_ :: Monoid x => Monoid_ x; }; data Functor_ x where { Functor_ :: Functor x => Functor_ x; }; < 1340986327 463803 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now the (,) for constraints and the (,) for types is the same one < 1340986376 338598 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :great < 1340986378 936142 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to learn agda again < 1340986387 441861 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :since apparently I'm giving a 45 minute talk on it < 1340986394 46017 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(why did i do that) < 1340986454 624011 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :not knowing agda should count as a good reason not to give a talk on it < 1340986475 446485 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Restrict c x = Restrict { classOfRestrict :: !(c x), getRestrict :: x }; < 1340986482 499448 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I guess you might not have been thinking right < 1340986657 602198 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now can it be done like this? ClassCodensity Monoid = Codensity (Restrict Monoid_) I am unsure, I haven't tried < 1340987012 666795 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-2-99-87-25.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: shopping time < 1340987093 329666 :augur!~augur@206.196.184.127 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1340987250 957016 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It appears not to work so well. < 1340987393 804488 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It works if you make up the type separately < 1340987394 348650 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1340988360 302640 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-2-99-87-25.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1340988363 319341 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-2-99-87-25.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello < 1340988940 777074 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1340988952 477597 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1340988959 167658 :augur_!~augur@208.58.5.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1340989594 919106 :Patashu!~Patashu@c27-253-127-153.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au NICK :Patashu[Zzz] < 1340989874 994523 :Patashu[Zzz]!~Patashu@c27-253-127-153.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1340991706 585360 :MDude!~fyrc@67.232.231.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://images.4chan.org/diy/src/1340967259708.gif < 1340991999 440403 :MoALTz__!~no@host-92-8-159-6.as43234.net QUIT :Quit: brb < 1340992018 576662 :MoALTz!~no@host-92-8-159-6.as43234.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1340992621 254081 :calamari!~calamari@ip72-211-147-156.tc.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1340992652 602521 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk JOIN :#esoteric < 1340992674 866841 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1340992785 693752 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1340993202 131346 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :gg"+yG Ctrl-V < 1340993216 260325 :MDude!~fyrc@67.232.231.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :woops < 1340993255 872634 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1340993449 232928 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :sup < 1340993492 265269 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is copy-pasting
< 1340993609 943685 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everyone was co-py-pasting / those kids were fast as lightning. < 1340993618 716066 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/one/body/ < 1340993619 667520 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1340993661 467894 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wrote a program in BytePusher.. < 1340993691 435573 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when it really comes down to it i can't deny that it allows for some extremely small programs < 1340993696 128990 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact it was a little bit frightening / but they ^v'd with expert timing. < 1340993726 800557 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you pronounce ^v'd? < 1340993756 281991 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know, but "pasted" didn't really flow either. < 1340993767 158275 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-2-99-87-25.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :cutrollveed < 1340993777 314253 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :k'veed. < 1340993800 703571 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe "yanked". < 1340993814 479081 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :yanked could work < 1340993823 971506 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also the fact it's easy to program it directly into a hex editor < 1340994091 449345 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a Finnish translation that goes approximately "who knows the feared Kung-Fu / can beat all the obstacles / you can break even a stone fence / everyone respects you". < 1340994117 324447 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like a fairly good translation < 1340994134 912355 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that anyone cares what the song's text is about < 1340994298 324609 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also other such gems. "I shouted: 'get in the queue' / the first fell down by my kick / soon the others each in their turn / were examining the ground / after I swinged [fists] a bit more / the rest fled running". < 1340994322 422774 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool < 1340994366 380497 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1340994380 81831 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's fun seeing my native language[english] being hacked by translators < 1340994425 468438 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can't really explain what it's like to only know english < 1340994449 937498 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does it feel? please explain < 1340994455 25991 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think LLVM has no unions, isn't it? < 1340994513 444147 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: well, what some would call bad translations, is like seeing the language being used in new and fun ways < 1340994516 344889 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you make a structure with zero-length arrays and access them as if it were a union, can it work without the optimization messing it up? < 1340994521 563229 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like that craze about all your base are belong to us < 1340994533 257620 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :if LLVM has casts, unions could be a source language-only thing < 1340994576 585476 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm pretty sure it does have casts, but no idea how it treats aliasing < 1340994584 986945 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :LLVM does have casts but will any optimization or anything allow it to cause problems? < 1340994589 863226 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not just an act of mockery. theres a secret joy in witnessing so called engrish < 1340994596 527079 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, yes, aliasing too < 1340994694 508547 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-2-99-87-25.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Advert for Snickers: people get annoyed when they're hungry, so eat, I guess? < 1340994699 541762 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like, as if you were to move to a new country where everyone spoke english, except that they all spoke it in a different way < 1340994773 611048 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah its 4:30 am here.. i think i'm just flipping out < 1340994844 869306 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: i wrote a bytepusher program < 1340994905 12633 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: In what programming language did you write it in? If it is written in a text format programming language, post it in the wiki. < 1340994915 824852 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wrote it in hex < 1340994916 12856 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Otherwise, just post the binaries.) < 1340994921 767582 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1340994953 783477 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure what the best way to post a binary is.. < 1340994968 273986 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :its very short though, like trivial < 1340994989 652746 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :LLVM had an union type earlier, but indeed the latest language reference doc no longer does. Maybe they have a documented alternative somewhere. < 1340995006 560452 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ill see if i can find one < 1340995053 789456 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: One way is to host it in your own computer. Another way is to use base-64 or uuencode or something like that. < 1340995068 821939 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://llvm.org/docs/LangRef.html#pointeraliasing < 1340995074 336571 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i found one < 1340995101 438362 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: One way is to send it to my computer (I will give details on private message) and I will then host it < 1340995244 30641 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :2.8 release notes: "The LLVM IR 'Union' feature was removed. While this is a desirable feature for LLVM IR to support, the existing implementation was half baked and barely useful. We'd really like anyone interested to resurrect the work and finish it for a future release." Apparently no-one did. < 1340995300 534205 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :But if they say type-based aliasing is not done on arbitrary IR code, I guess casts are safe. < 1340995318 936667 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: it's this.. i dunno if wikisend.com is safe or not.. im putting blind faith in it.. the program itself is only 27 bytes and does very little http://wikisend.com/download/615140/test.BytePusher < 1340995348 156164 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: Just post the hex on esolang wiki if it is that short. < 1340995356 550658 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1340995409 423241 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk JOIN :#esoteric < 1340995416 246436 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: well my main reason for mentioning it is i noticed you worked on bytepusher stuff. its not that the actual program has any value < 1340995461 885650 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: Yes I would think a short program such as that would do nothing useful, but if you want to post it anyways, if it is that short you can just post the hex < 1340995565 320811 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : Don't you mean "add to the Visual SourceSafe library"? <-- i think that's the one i saw mentioned as "the only VCS that is worse than not having any" < 1340995580 762735 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: It's famously bad, yes. < 1340995583 711832 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i may have mentioned this before < 1340995608 158385 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: i just wanted to say that i looked at bytepusher really :D < 1340995608 309749 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :how can anyone ever "mean" to add something to the VSS library? < 1340995651 84792 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i had my doubts about it when i first looked on the wiki but its the first time ive written a program in a hex editor < 1340995670 440456 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I actually met someone who defended VSS (he didn't claim it was perfect, just not as bad as people made it out to be). Strange thing is he wasn't an idiot in most other respects < 1340995702 683659 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1340995721 667235 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i find that when everyone hates a given technology without using it < 1340995727 256485 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i start using it < 1340995730 23714 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not as bad as everyone says < 1340995733 76276 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: OK. Other programs were generated using C programs and Python programs, and one program I wrote in the PUSHEM assembler. < 1340995746 129429 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: he might have been sarcastic, and you're the fool < 1340995781 129035 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I (knowingly) know only one VSS user, and they said it was quite bad. But I suppose they must've improved some things about it. At least I heard they added a client/server model. (Before that, all clients directly manipulated the repository over a SMB share.) < 1340995788 574144 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, he seemed honest, and the rest of the people nearby were equally fooled in that case. < 1340995797 771576 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: all it really does is plot a red pixel (step 1), then it plots a second pixel next to it based on reading the first keyboard byte as a colour(color) < 1340995813 301542 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, proper locking for that model sounds like hell < 1340995817 263018 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was really impressed that you can do all that in 27 bytes < 1340995828 115937 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have actually seen VSS in use (as in, seen the screen while someone was using it) < 1340995838 833106 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think the guy who made it really knows what to do with it < 1340995839 18881 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, okay, what did it look like? < 1340995854 312917 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Rumour has it that the dtabases had a habit of going bad often. Though I think there was a database unfucker tool too. < 1340995857 472157 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really remember that well, but some guy was building a custom UI for it in VB < 1340995861 948800 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, heh < 1340995871 318090 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, ouch < 1340995916 943998 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Today's piece of (partially unverified) trivia: win32 ABI only guarantees 4-byte stack alignment upon function entry, but if you have a double-precision float variable that goes on the stack, (at least some versions of) MSVC will opt to dynamically align stack to 8 with an and esp, 0xfffffff8 in the epilogue, for performance reasons. < 1340995932 556981 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/epi/pro/ < 1340995935 766852 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :was the client/server thing ever in VSS though, or is that new for team thingy? < 1340995946 267998 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: In VSS, I believe. < 1340995975 525063 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, wait, what is so special about that instruction? < 1340995996 811671 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems like a reasonable way as long as the stack grows down (which it does) < 1340996004 823990 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Starting with VSS 2005, Microsoft has added a client–server mode. In this mode, clients do not need write access to a SMB share where they can potentially damage the SS database." < 1340996025 86002 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: the special part is the alignment, not the instruction being used, I think < 1340996027 703814 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: There's nothing special about it. It is reasonable. < 1340996031 896707 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1340996046 20897 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :the alignment is kind of annoying though < 1340996055 290781 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure the alignment is terribly special either. It was a random useless fact, is all. < 1340996061 33223 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bfjoust areyoualive . < 1340996061 937356 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what about 64-bit windows? < 1340996065 148049 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, at least mostly useless. < 1340996070 71753 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​Score for quintopia_areyoualive: 8.3 < 1340996074 276497 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :iei < 1340996093 2454 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: always 8-byte aligned, you can't push other quantities of bytes in long mode < 1340996096 102147 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: That has bigger stack alignment by default. Though I don't recall if it's 8 or even 16. < 1340996119 84123 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should say *at least* 8-byte < 1340996142 342988 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: I actually believe you can push two. Not four, though. < 1340996144 418011 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: there is 1 problem i can see with it though. < 1340996159 287289 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Not that anyone would push two.) < 1340996165 288929 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: What problem? < 1340996177 598016 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bfjoust brachiation >->(-)*5(>+)*4(>[(<)*3(+)*7<<(+[<{}>(-)*50<(-)*50<(-)*15>>(>--[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*9([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%14[-]][+][-])*27](+)*50)*3 (>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*9([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%14[-]][+][-])*27](-)*50)*2(>)*7 (>[(-)*9([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%14[-]][+][-])*22])%28]++)*22>(-)*115[-][+][-] < 1340996180 342969 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​Score for quintopia_brachiation: 41.7 < 1340996181 188185 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: iirc a smaller immediate or memory operand gets zero-expanded to 64-bit < 1340996190 211108 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :weird < 1340996193 38403 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :and for registers, only 64-bit ones are allowed < 1340996241 738877 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bfjoust brachiation >->(-)*5(>)*4(>[(<)*3(+)*7<<(+[<{}>(-)*50<(-)*50<(-)*10>>(>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](+)*50)*3 (>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](-)*50)*2(>)*7 (>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*22])%28]++)*22>(-)*115[-][+][-] < 1340996244 439341 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​Score for quintopia_brachiation: 47.9 < 1340996245 715948 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :he should have made the 1 byte pixelmap address into 3 bytes.. and added a large buffer onto the end of the memory to catch it < 1340996369 402510 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :its so funny that he didn't < 1340996405 166920 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: The pseudo in Intel's manual goes: IF in 64-bit mode THEN [ IF operand size = 64 THEN [ RSP <- RSP - 8; Memory[RSP] <- Temp; (* Push quadword *) ] ELSE [ RSP <- RSP - 2; Memory[RSP] <- TEMP; (* Push word *) ] ]. < 1340996458 873962 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously it's wrong and I'm right! < 1340996468 681605 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obviously. < 1340996474 827302 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or at least added a byte to toggle between 1 and 3 byte addressing of where the map of pixels begins < 1340996484 577917 :pikhq!~pikhq@168-103-253-116.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1340996492 695271 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it was a design decision. after all it's his thing not mine. < 1340996492 846487 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :But what is true is you can't push a dword, and if you use PUSH imm32, it zero-extends to eight bytes. < 1340996494 648865 :pikhq!~pikhq@168-103-248-160.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1340996500 977545 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe just didn't occur to him < 1340996509 718049 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :are there byte-size pushes? < 1340996520 262752 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not at all. < 1340996531 326605 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : Vorpal: always 8-byte aligned, you can't push other quantities of bytes in long mode <-- oh okay < 1340996543 619208 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: it's being debated as you speak though < 1340996558 437382 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I mean, there's PUSH imm8, but I think it's always pushed at least the 16 bits. < 1340996560 197269 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, I thought you could puss eax and such sizes of registers still? < 1340996566 539805 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: You can't. < 1340996598 220851 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm anyway iirc modern compilers (gcc at least) tend to use mov relative %rsp rather than push or pop < 1340996603 263297 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :that way you could do it < 1340996612 924494 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: well, PUSH imm8 and PUSH reg8 is what I was thinking about, the question is which ones exist and what they do < 1340996619 689815 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :such as adding your whole stack frame size on entry of the function < 1340996626 577836 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: There's no PUSH r8, just imm8. < 1340996638 221970 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: And "If the source operand is an immediate and its size is less than the operand size, < 1340996641 706235 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :a sign-extended value is pushed on the stack. If the source operand is a < 1340996644 188951 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :segment register (16 bits) and the operand size is greater than 16 bits, a zero- < 1340996647 706621 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :extended value is pushed on the stack. < 1340996654 34608 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The operand size is listed to be 16, 32 or 64.) < 1340996684 332218 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you can do something like ADD %rsp,10 followed by MOV %rsp+2,%eax I think? (Not sure about the asm syntax for that, haven't been doing x86 asm for ages) < 1340996688 571975 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Pasting from the Intel PDF, from Evince, is just lousy with newlines.) < 1340996707 35534 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can certainly perform a "one-byte push" by just dec rsp. < 1340996708 456868 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I meant SUB not ADD < 1340996710 79048 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously < 1340996726 5162 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you don't mind breaking most ABIs. < 1340996777 890382 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well, I can't help notice that gcc does not compile code to use PUSH and POP, rather it substracts the size of the stack frame from %rsp on function entry and then does mov relative %rsp < 1340996791 796508 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :so then you could easily have say 2 4-byte values pushed < 1340996801 889834 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and just increment the stack frame by 8 rather than 2*8 < 1340996818 310718 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a 32-bit operand size means zero-extending to 64-bit and pushing that? then there's at least two different ways to push a segment register zero-extended as 8 bytes? < 1340996832 725123 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :but pushing immediates is silly < 1340996855 950082 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually I suppose imm32 would be sign-extended to 64, I just misread that on the first pass. < 1340996856 903427 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, hm does it zero extend 16-bit registers too? < 1340996861 949823 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :or just 32-bit ones? < 1340996870 61722 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :They should use PUSH and POP if their effect matches what need to be done < 1340996871 610882 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: you can zero-extend anything you want? < 1340996887 399034 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also use AAA and so on if those work for the program done too < 1340996896 835911 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, well obviously, I meant if you have garbage in a register and do mov %ax,whatever < 1340996904 780347 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :AAA and some other old crap is not available in long mode < 1340996914 846371 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, I know mov %eax,whatever will zero the upper 32 bits of %rax < 1340996921 589516 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but how will i do 64-bit BCD math?!?!? < 1340996921 951486 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Well, it would not compile those instructions in long mode, tghen. < 1340996936 106775 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: That's kind of weird that you put the arguments the Intel way but add AT&T prefix %s. < 1340996942 747222 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: no, word and byte-size operations work as before on the lower bits preserving the higher bits < 1340996947 996980 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I like to be unusual! < 1340996973 435560 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :afaik the rationale for zero-extending 32-bit loads is that you can use 32-bit pointers for the first 4GB of memory < 1340996978 267394 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: also, you now have lower-byte/word registers for di, si, sp, bp that didn't use to have them < 1340996987 377078 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, ah, so would mov %ax,whatever zero the upper 32 bit but leave the bits between that and the lower 16 bits as they were before? < 1340997005 29666 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: no, it leaves all 48 upper bits unaffected < 1340997005 228331 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, seriously though I haven't been doing x86 asm for ages. < 1340997025 49420 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, mostly AVR recently. And that is recently as in half a year ago < 1340997026 492202 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is also AAM which allows you to set what base you want, instead of always base ten; AAD also does that; you can use these for some purpose other than BCD arithmetic < 1340997054 465865 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, the x86-64 "Unix ABI" requires 16-byte stack alignment; don't know about x64 Windows. (And yes, as long as you have the alignment right the bytes inside could of course form smaller objects.) < 1340997054 902511 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, right < 1340997079 378 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, as long as you don't use PUSH or POP for them that is < 1340997086 409616 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right? < 1340997104 736844 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, if you manually pack them to a register. And I still maintain you can do the 2-byte push in long mode. < 1340997115 616725 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :So four times push ax should be okay. < 1340997126 480344 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about alignment of x87 floating point on 32-bit windows? That is 80 bytes isn't it? What alignment does that need? < 1340997145 636881 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :er 80 bits? < 1340997150 311443 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't it? < 1340997153 225303 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc the 80 bit format is only used internally < 1340997157 343495 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah okay < 1340997158 62702 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :in FPU registers < 1340997163 440324 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :You *can* store them, though. < 1340997166 427070 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what does long double then use when written to memory? < 1340997166 578133 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nobody often does. < 1340997175 64856 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The AAD instruction sets the value in the AL register to (AL + (10 * AH)), and then clears the AH register to 00H." (The number ten in there can be changed to an eight-bit immediate value) < 1340997190 283426 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :GCC writes the 80-bit long doubles as 12-byte or 16-byte objects depending on a flag. < 1340997212 959455 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, is that a BCD instruction? < 1340997220 175634 :pikhq!~pikhq@168-103-248-160.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't long double just a double on x86-64? < 1340997224 729400 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, the fun thing with the new lower-byte registers is that with the 64-bit operand prefix, ah, bh, ch, dh change meaning to spl, bpl, sil, dil < 1340997224 910042 :pikhq!~pikhq@168-103-248-160.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(because fuck x87) < 1340997226 844434 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably < 1340997227 395995 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :-m96bit-long-double and -m128bit-long-double. < 1340997238 761903 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, 100% sure that isn't so. I got different results last time I checked < 1340997252 321152 :pikhq!~pikhq@168-103-248-160.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Well then. < 1340997255 26396 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: It is the command for ASCII adjust before division, so yes it is meant to be a BCD instruction, although it has other uses too. < 1340997265 844979 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, at least gcc compiled my use of long double into x87 instructions on 64-bit x86 Linux < 1340997281 390386 :pikhq!~pikhq@168-103-248-160.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guess it is, then. < 1340997297 21752 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I somehow got the idea that x87 was entirely unavailable in long mode < 1340997299 232093 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, anyway my question concerned alignment of long double on the 32-bit windows stack < 1340997301 929926 :pikhq!~pikhq@168-103-248-160.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: It isn't. < 1340997305 187079 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The AAM instruction does the reverse operation of AAD; it does division and modulo by immediate. < 1340997314 928331 :pikhq!~pikhq@168-103-248-160.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: x87 is *entirely* available in long mode. < 1340997318 426080 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I'm thinking 16 bits. < 1340997324 883687 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, makes sense < 1340997326 728361 :pikhq!~pikhq@168-103-248-160.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: And worse still, necessary for MMX to work. < 1340997343 985031 :pikhq!~pikhq@168-103-248-160.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(admittedly, you're not *that* likely to use it. Still.) < 1340997351 168745 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I mean, it could be 12, but they already align doubles to 8 for performance, so... < 1340997361 786768 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :GCC has the fanciest -mfpmath=both. "Attempt to utilize both instruction sets at once. This effectively doubles the amount of available registers, and on chips with separate execution units for 387 and SSE the execution resources too. Use this option with care, as it is still experimental, because the GCC register allocator does not model separate functional units well, resulting in unstable ... < 1340997362 136509 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I actually used it for one thing. Trying to remember what it was... < 1340997367 785918 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :... performance." < 1340997372 293444 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: oh, because of that mmx/fpu registers sharing registers thing? < 1340997377 297481 :pikhq!~pikhq@168-103-248-160.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Yup. < 1340997389 70519 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, does anyone use MMX on 64-bit though? < 1340997393 387791 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought it was all SSE < 1340997438 714573 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: that's fairly horrible < 1340997461 420063 :pikhq!~pikhq@168-103-248-160.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Because of SSE2, in practice SSE is an extension to MMX. < 1340997470 452216 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, different register set though < 1340997474 297595 :pikhq!~pikhq@168-103-248-160.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(some of the SSE2 opcodes are MMX opcodes extended to work on XMM registers) < 1340997478 94487 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1340997487 858334 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, no need to support the legacy registers in theory < 1340997491 469634 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the AAM and AAD instructions are useful even if you do not use BCD arithmetic. < 1340997502 690918 :pikhq!~pikhq@168-103-248-160.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but x86_64 was designed to be a *minimal* change to x86. < 1340997509 915178 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, IIRC they are gone on 64-bit x86 < 1340997523 836535 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, and the opcodes converted into new prefixes or something < 1340997533 490795 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Yes, but I would think they would still work if not in 64-bit mode < 1340997538 702778 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, yet they dropped vm86 < 1340997547 536050 :pikhq!~pikhq@168-103-248-160.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: That's actually hard to do. < 1340997554 27610 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, hm? < 1340997560 756369 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, I think the BCD opcodes were left unassigned, just removed < 1340997569 902010 :pikhq!~pikhq@168-103-248-160.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it was less work to keep something than remove it, they kept it. < 1340997575 854634 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, the CPU still has to be able to do that when running a 32-bit OS though < 1340997581 967728 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the functionality is still there < 1340997598 184404 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :all one-byte inc (and dec?) opcodes got reassigned to prefix duty, but those were already redundant with other encodings for those isntructions < 1340997628 56032 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, what did they do with AAM and AAD then? < 1340997637 245970 :pikhq!~pikhq@168-103-248-160.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Yes, but to get it working under x86_64 you need to get segmentation working under x86_64. < 1340997646 638632 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaah < 1340997663 55336 :pikhq!~pikhq@168-103-248-160.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :VM86 is mostly just sticking segmentation on top of paging. < 1340997672 165701 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, but uh doesn't 64-bit still have some segment registers? IIRC one is used for something still < 1340997688 342747 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fs relative addressing iirc? < 1340997689 256590 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can still set a base on %fs and %gs < 1340997691 45995 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :might misremember < 1340997693 574000 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the limits are not checked < 1340997700 779696 :pikhq!~pikhq@168-103-248-160.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Yes, but those are vestigial. < 1340997701 51866 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the bases are set by writing some MSRs. < 1340997704 187036 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :cs, ds, es, ss are all stuck to 0 base < 1340997708 555231 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, what were those bases used for? < 1340997709 849259 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :more fun stuff: 0x90 is XCHG eax,eax but is used everywhere as NOP - but according to the zero-extending 32-bit stuff that instruction should no longer be a no-op in long mode < 1340997716 294730 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :thread local storage iirc? < 1340997719 352856 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the other one? < 1340997722 597883 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: depends on the OS and library < 1340997728 562266 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, linux, glibc < 1340997749 587401 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty sure %fs was used for TLS < 1340997765 846342 :pikhq!~pikhq@168-103-248-160.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Amusingly, you can still run 16-bit code when in long mode. < 1340997771 757875 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, they redefined it to NOP, and to do an actual XCHG eax,eax you'll need to use another (existing redundant) encoding < 1340997774 331342 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : more fun stuff: 0x90 is XCHG eax,eax but is used everywhere as NOP - but according to the zero-extending 32-bit stuff that instruction should no longer be a no-op in long mode <-- they special cased it though < 1340997778 483844 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1340997784 426558 :pikhq!~pikhq@168-103-248-160.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :16-bit protected mode code just *barely* works. < 1340997792 549333 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, how < 1340997800 847238 :pikhq!~pikhq@168-103-248-160.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know, I just know WINE does it. < 1340997806 687679 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does? wow < 1340997806 880892 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: %fs is used for TLS and stack-protector canary < 1340997821 312761 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know if %gs is commonly used by anything in userspace < 1340997826 539041 :pikhq!~pikhq@168-103-248-160.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :How else do you think it does Win16 on x86_64? :) < 1340997827 798712 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I'm kind of torn on if I want to check out the source to figure it out or if it would be too horrible < 1340997835 17592 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, it does that? nice < 1340997840 786837 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's used by kernels thanks to the SWAPGS instruction < 1340997843 305731 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.x86-64.org/pipermail/discuss/2000-October/001009.html < 1340997857 994776 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, %fs is used for two things? huh < 1340997876 768745 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :really, %fs is used for whatever you want to use it for :) < 1340997879 456324 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the stack protector canary value lives within the TLS block < 1340997880 34841 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If things like that stop working entirely in a 64-bit operating system, you could still either run those programs in an emulator or dual-boot to another operating system. < 1340997896 943000 :pikhq!~pikhq@168-103-248-160.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Thus DOSbox. < 1340997907 219806 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Yes < 1340997907 388681 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, the %fs base points to a libc internal structure, a different one per thread < 1340997909 418178 :pikhq!~pikhq@168-103-248-160.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or dosemu... < 1340997912 447582 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :which contains various stuff like the canary value < 1340997918 60616 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, not dosemu < 1340997920 416137 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also contains pointers to reach the user-visible TLS variables < 1340997923 126294 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, it uses vm86 afaik < 1340997929 89119 :pikhq!~pikhq@168-103-248-160.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: dosemu now has an 8086 emulator, because of x86_64. < 1340997931 780758 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1340997932 85959 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :GS is used for TLS and a pointer to some kernel data structure on Windows. Not sure what, if anything, they do with FS. (They used to have FS pointing at those, I also don't know why they bothered swapping that for x64.) < 1340997954 434299 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, right < 1340997989 242874 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well the kernel one is easy to understand given the SWAPGS instruction < 1340997994 93672 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :that kmc mentioned < 1340997995 193181 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm so in long mode, SYSCALL does not load %ss:%rsp? < 1340998009 339722 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"When using SYSCALL to implement system calls, no kernel stack exists at the OS entry point." < 1340998011 339694 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, what is %ss? < 1340998023 310751 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i'm pretty sure that's not true in 32-bit mode < 1340998025 521951 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: stack segment < 1340998029 619507 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it is irrelevant in long mode < 1340998039 316531 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :swapgs is pretty hard to work with, easy to swap the wrong number of times and end up with kernel code using a gs that was set by user space < 1340998068 371845 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, ah < 1340998084 154523 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think ss gets loaded with a null segment, rsp is iirc unchanged and you have to load it if you want a stack in the kernel < 1340998088 231127 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :what happens when a 32-bit program running under a 64-bit OS does a SYSCALL? < 1340998109 67436 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :interrupts will also give you this ss is a null segment state, but for some reason you can still access it there < 1340998126 319984 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : swapgs is pretty hard to work with, easy to swap the wrong number of times and end up with kernel code using a gs that was set by user space <-- oh? Wouldn't you just execute it once after entering kernel mode? < 1340998160 919096 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: and once on leaving... < 1340998166 482496 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, well yes < 1340998174 998261 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you have to make sure you got every exit path < 1340998180 923063 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you have clearly defined entry and exit points that shouldn't be an issue < 1340998203 861871 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, that is just a question about proper design though < 1340998206 30887 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm I'm wrong, it looks like SYSCALL doesn't load the stack pointer even in 32-bit mode < 1340998211 792628 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the instruction existed before amd64, you see < 1340998230 68747 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :SYSENTER does load the stack pointer from a MSR, but doesn't save the instruction pointer < 1340998233 128607 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what a country < 1340998248 93312 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :x86, what did you expect? < 1340998275 210795 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well they were invented by competing companies too < 1340998284 733671 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a bit like the NYC subway system < 1340998296 191194 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :which was built by three competing entities < 1340998305 57137 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then gradually unified < 1340998307 680387 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :the part of the segments stuff that got left over in long mode is quite silly, you have stuff like syscall requiring a specific set (two sets, for 32-bit back-compat) of segment descriptor in the descriptor table that should look a certain way < 1340998358 74846 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still most of the information is ignored and it just loads default values (like, at best it checks that you put the only allowed values in there) < 1340998417 551157 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: quick comment offtopic, it has occured to me that the reason for not scrolling is that it throws out the advantage of having ZZYYXX addresses < 1340998473 59964 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there is a way around this.. if there was a single XX0000 space where writing or reading it referenced the pixelmap < 1340998546 861634 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, AVR is quite clean, except the GCC ABI for it makes no sense. Like hardware integer division puts part of the result in a fixed register (%r0 iirc), which is callee-saved in the GCC ABI. There are caller saved registers (%r24-%r27 iirc), a better mapping would have been to make %r0 a caller saved register. < 1340998568 665416 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since most code could then just avoid using it, thus avoiding saving and restoring it at all < 1340998614 47697 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :also there was left shift and right shift on the model I worked with, but only one step at a time. < 1340998632 588050 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :AVR chips are quite fun < 1340998643 940355 :pikhq!~pikhq@168-103-248-160.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Betcha "love" how x86 Linux has __kernel_vsyscall. < 1340998644 223768 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, I have another piece of trivia that I recently came across again. Z80 has the usual arithmetic left shift (SLA, shifts zeroes in), arithmetic right shift (SRA, duplicates the sign bit) and logical right shift (SRL, shifts zeroes in again) instructions. *But*, if you look at the opcodes, there's a hole in where you'd logically have SLL, the logical left shift. And if you go and use it, ... < 1340998650 220033 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :... turns out it's actually one of the undocumented instructions; it's a left shift, but it shifts 1 bits in. At least one assembler still calls it SLL, though. < 1340998654 42837 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, is that related to the vdso? < 1340998664 345429 :pikhq!~pikhq@168-103-248-160.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Yes. < 1340998666 147079 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't have much opinion about the AVR ISA, but the chips have neat peripherals < 1340998674 793271 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess all microcontrollers do, but this is the one i know best < 1340998680 222537 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, right, I know about it then. To select SYSENTER/SYSCALL/INT < 1340998682 37214 :pikhq!~pikhq@168-103-248-160.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the generic system call function in x86's VDSO. < 1340998683 103750 :pikhq!~pikhq@168-103-248-160.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1340998691 253148 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, hold on < 1340998697 177253 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :vsyscall means something different < 1340998703 650989 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least in some contexts, < 1340998704 385733 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I made up a 7-bit instruction set, where addresses are 14-bits < 1340998716 456646 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :vsyscall means the "system calls" that actuall execute in userspace, like gettimeofday < 1340998719 698851 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, heh nice < 1340998729 783123 :pikhq!~pikhq@168-103-248-160.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Yes, but those don't go through __kernel_vsyscall at all. < 1340998741 725278 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, they are in the same sort of general area of memory iirc < 1340998745 511473 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah... I'm not surprised they are inconsistent with terminology < 1340998746 132931 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: but arithmetic/logic doesn't make sense for left shifts < 1340998752 361937 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they are done with vdso rather than vsyscall these days iirc < 1340998758 561142 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :which iirc is slightly different < 1340998761 802014 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :in current systems they are both in the vdso, afaik < 1340998762 886392 :pikhq!~pikhq@168-103-248-160.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :__kernel_vsyscall does a *real* system call. < 1340998768 107774 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and only matters on 64-bit < 1340998774 161341 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :GCC can compile to MMIX; when will they make LLVM compile to MMIX? < 1340998776 578027 :pikhq!~pikhq@168-103-248-160.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You actually have to special-case the userspace-only ones. < 1340998783 489573 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: what only matters on 64-bit? < 1340998794 877921 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :7fffbbeb0000-7fffbbeb1000 r-xp 00000000 00:00 0 [vdso] < 1340998795 88374 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ffffffffff600000-ffffffffff601000 r-xp 00000000 00:00 0 [vsyscall] < 1340998799 996712 :pikhq!~pikhq@168-103-248-160.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: VDSO is on all Linux archs. < 1340998800 714353 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :from /proc/self/maps on 64-bit < 1340998804 352509 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Yes, but since the other three are called what they are, it kind of induces the name "logical left shift". < 1340998807 379861 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that last page is legacy though < 1340998810 85015 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :In addition, can they make LLVM compile to Glulx? < 1340998812 248954 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :vsyscall is like a deprecated alternative to vdso yes < 1340998817 473176 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, exactly < 1340998828 466359 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, and iirc only 64-bit had vsyscall as opposed to the vdso < 1340998832 69158 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1340998834 304748 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure when glibc does a syscall it doesn't go through either of those. < 1340998834 455943 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless I completely misremember < 1340998845 971800 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :no 32-bit cat around to check with alas < 1340998846 873634 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: on amd64? yeah, it uses the SYSCALL instruction < 1340998848 694873 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It just uses a "syscall" instruction. < 1340998856 347241 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :vdso is for the userspace-implemented stuff (plus syscalls), and vsyscall is only for the thing that selects the best way of doing syscalls? < 1340998870 713422 :pikhq!~pikhq@168-103-248-160.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Uh, *surely* it goes through VDSO for gettimeofday et al. < 1340998876 452232 :pikhq!~pikhq@168-103-248-160.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Basically. < 1340998881 496343 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, vsyscall contains a userspace gettimeofday (legacy) iirc. While vdso contain the current user space one < 1340998886 839720 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: glibc does? < 1340998890 330688 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc vsyscall didn't scale and was a horrible hack < 1340998898 254895 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :these days vsyscall doesn't contain the legacy gettimeofday, it just contains code to make a "real" gettimeofday syscall < 1340998900 256204 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :but removing it would break statically linked applications < 1340998901 152058 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :as a compatibility hack < 1340998903 958093 :pikhq!~pikhq@168-103-248-160.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Also, on x86_64, __linux_vsyscall DNE anyways. < 1340998909 698451 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: SLA/SRA have opcode 0x26/0x2E, and SRL (which is what the only shift-left in the manual is called) is 0x3E, and 0x36 does perform a left shift, so it sort of has to be called "SLL" even though it's not exactly "logical" to shift in set bits. < 1340998915 946845 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, ah, it used to contain a user space one < 1340998920 817500 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :they minimized the amount of code in the legacy vsyscall page, to reduce attack surface < 1340998923 880362 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it allowed for LLVM functions to be both inline and naked? It may be useful to implement some of the glk.h functions in this way when targeting Glulx < 1340998925 679908 :pikhq!~pikhq@168-103-248-160.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as syscall always exists, and it's always fast) < 1340998930 942726 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(specifically the amount of code in fixed locations, for ROP) < 1340998932 723025 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, fair enough < 1340998953 447718 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, DNE? < 1340998954 158094 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since much of glk.h functions are native instructions in Glulx < 1340998959 206963 :pikhq!~pikhq@168-103-248-160.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Does Not Exist < 1340998961 183924 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1340998965 318752 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Having a "syscall" in a fixed location seems like a pretty useful thing for ROP. < 1340998975 320046 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really thought I used SLL in rfk86, but it does not seem to. :/ < 1340998994 183861 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :what can you use it for? < 1340999001 124662 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :To shift ones in. < 1340999004 442462 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :on i386, you make normal syscalls through vdso, but the address of that entry point comes in through an ELF auxv, so you don't need a dynamic linker in userspace to find the syscall entry point < 1340999009 645904 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: oh! I see! < 1340999012 950185 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf, the syscall in question was only gettimeofday iirc? < 1340999013 678931 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas you do need one to find the vsyscalls for gettimeofday etc < 1340999027 348717 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: What do you mean? < 1340999028 192238 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: but in other words, you have found no use for it? < 1340999042 588345 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf, in the vsyscalls page < 1340999046 385875 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know if i386 ever had that stuff at a fixed address as x86_64 does < 1340999049 256881 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it contained "syscall" < 1340999060 478864 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : these days vsyscall doesn't contain the legacy gettimeofday, it just contains code to make a "real" gettimeofday syscall < 1340999060 630036 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: But it does now, doesn't it? < 1340999064 254223 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf, just the "fixed functionality" gettimeofday < 1340999071 695084 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: I thought I had. I'm sure I used it in *something*. I mean, it's like SCF; RLC (set carry flag; rotate left via carry) except shorter and doesn't mess the carry. (Er, I guess it might do the latter due to the shift. But anyway, shorter.) < 1340999072 906001 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf, no, that is in the vdso < 1340999098 656924 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: If you're collecting bits that come in one by one, serially, in a register, it could be nice. < 1340999100 371608 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Last time I looked at [vsyscall] it was mostly empty with a few syscall instructions. < 1340999104 297328 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ANd at a fixed address. < 1340999107 320300 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :== shachaf < 1340999111 479108 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf, yes... < 1340999116 159819 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i found the commit where they removed the interesting code in the vsyscall page < 1340999119 412744 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf, read the bloody source for vsyscall < 1340999134 183204 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think you two are confusing two things < 1340999143 569252 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"vsyscall" the legacy page mapped at ffffffffff600000 < 1340999151 530044 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and "vsyscall" the idea of doing system calls in userspace < 1340999158 563423 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :which these days is implemented not with that page, but with the vdso < 1340999169 828956 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, why -600000? < 1340999174 574121 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :beats me < 1340999184 68624 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I didn't "read the bloody source", but I did "dump the bloody page and disassemble it" < 1340999190 212013 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf, right < 1340999190 747002 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably a wild-ass guess as to how much space they wanted < 1340999211 247820 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :they should've given it a 1GB page, just in case < 1340999224 706966 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fun fact: you can't write(1, 0xffffffffff600000, 4096) < 1340999241 779381 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If bytes were IPv6 addresses... < 1340999261 261075 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, and? it is in the negative address space. User space shouldn't expect to be able to do anything there < 1340999267 156665 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :write rejects all upper-half/negative addresses? < 1340999271 349587 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes sense, I guess < 1340999272 432540 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: yeah < 1340999284 892018 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: well, you can read from that memory, and jump to it < 1340999286 774248 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: But you can memcpy(buf, vsyscall); < 1340999299 561076 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf, of course, because that doesn't go into the kernel < 1340999303 220961 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this is how vsyscalls used to work < 1340999308 230860 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: not "of course" < 1340999309 895249 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know < 1340999313 489017 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the kernel sets up the page tables so that you can read that page < 1340999321 429386 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :when ordinarily, you cannot read pages above the midpoint < 1340999326 286933 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, well duh, of course you couldn't do it if it didn't do that < 1340999336 921996 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't duh me < 1340999352 809442 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, but it is "of course" since /proc/self/maps says you can read it < 1340999357 505366 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :then of course you can memcpy it < 1340999360 451071 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I think kmc's point is that you can read from the page but not write(1, page); < 1340999372 136875 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf, yes and not surprising really < 1340999393 592190 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bfjoust a http://sprunge.us/hTYC < 1340999393 958134 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm glad you're such a genius that this fact does not give you a moment's pause < 1340999397 18472 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​Score for quintopia_a: 57.1 < 1340999405 128608 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thanks for telling us all how smart you are < 1340999422 651301 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that's one of those things where if it's not surprising you aren't thinking properly about it < 1340999428 786320 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, I didn't mean to offend you, nor did I intend to appear like a genius (I'm not) < 1340999430 613427 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you can read it, of course you can write it to a file < 1340999478 69735 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: What do you get back from write, incidentally? I mean, if it's EFAULT which means "outside your accessible address space", you could maybe sue someone for lying to you. < 1340999486 128141 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think that's what you get < 1340999491 942378 :pikhq!~pikhq@168-103-248-160.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except that write() makes the read from kernel space, and the kernel no doubt screams about higher-half addresses in system calls. < 1340999494 415992 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :because access_ok() is not particularly clever < 1340999496 774381 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, err no, because write() happens in the kernel. And making the SYSCALL handler error out on kernel addresses is a reasonable security measure < 1340999511 181512 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not "the SYSCALL handler" it's the code for each individual system call < 1340999526 444841 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact that code has to exist in every device driver pretty much < 1340999543 53604 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, exactly, which is why it makes perfect sense < 1340999546 854594 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if one driver forgets it (for example the Reliable Datagram Sockets implementation), you can use that driver to root the machine < 1340999551 14317 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :thoracle < 1340999566 3152 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: it doesn't really error out on kernel addresses here, it's erroring out on a "randomly" selected part of the address space, completely unrelated to whether you have access to it or not < 1340999593 553045 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: dude, I never said this fact was completely baffling, it makes sense, it's just slightly odd < 1340999597 438674 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, it's because it's not actually doing access checks at all that it needs to check address ranges in the first place < 1340999599 570236 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, well yes, but according to the ABI anything with MSB set is kernel. < 1340999610 594275 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just an amusing corner case where the kernel says you can't read a particular piece of memory, but the processor itself lets you read it < 1340999618 323378 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway I think we're all repeating the same facts over and over at this point < 1340999620 122996 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, well yes, that is true < 1340999632 18040 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(both that it is amusing and that we are repeating facts) < 1340999660 698148 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does LLVM have anything that you can make a global variable belong to an instruction? If not, will they ever add such things? < 1340999665 33101 :pikhq!~pikhq@168-103-248-160.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's get someone else in here to agree. < 1340999674 783156 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: the whole discussion is also amusing in a way < 1340999676 337538 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :> text "i agree with kmc" < 1340999677 469168 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : i agree with kmc < 1340999682 845622 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: disagree < 1340999694 63270 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, hm, be careful of going too meta < 1340999695 133368 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps by a metadata such as !owns < 1340999713 807413 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :in which way can a variable belong to an instruction? < 1340999717 148062 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, huh? < 1340999734 222787 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find it amusing how often [vdso]- or [vsyscall]-related discussions come up when kmc is around. < 1340999734 374107 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The ABI in fact explicitly does say "conforming processes may only use addresses from 0x0000000000000000 to 0x00007fffffffffff", that's also a bit funny with the readable high page there. < 1340999740 751009 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :He doesn't even have to start them, the just happen. < 1340999744 939212 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf, they do? < 1340999748 358506 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf, that is strange < 1340999751 45292 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep. < 1340999751 240220 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean that if the instructions are stored in RAM, the address of the global variable will be the same address of the immediate operands to that instruction. < 1340999760 498429 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: does it also say somewhere that conforming processes must use vsyscall? < 1340999773 281026 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is a bit obnoxious that you can't use the VDSO vsyscalls without a dynamic linker < 1340999792 995462 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(If the instructions are not stored in RAM, or if there is something else preventing the instructions from being modified, then that metadata will be removed and a warning will be emitted.) < 1340999794 849004 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(maybe not a whole dynamic linker; maybe you can get by with a simplistic ELF reader) < 1340999795 344 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, obviously it doesn't now that vdso is there but err, something < 1340999805 463511 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, you could write your own code to parse the ELF structure of the VDSO surely? < 1340999812 485950 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it depends < 1340999818 503773 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :are there dynamic relocations inside the VDSO? < 1340999819 219605 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, since it doesn't have to be a full linker that shouldn't be /too/ hard < 1340999824 378307 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Linux is turning into Windows! < 1340999825 902036 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Well, this is the System V Application Binary Interface. I guess a hypothetical Linux ABI document could just say "overriding SysV ABI, you can actually have this one page if you behave". < 1340999826 442887 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :if so, you need to apply those relocations < 1340999833 925690 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, where do you get the pointer to the vdso in the first place? < 1340999839 257944 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, I don't think the vdso is writable from user space < 1340999842 321026 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: ELF auxv < 1340999850 142418 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, ok < 1340999862 699848 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: it's not a COW mapping like any other shared library? < 1340999865 192965 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I guess you'll at least need to look up stuff in the symbol table, yuck < 1340999867 13484 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it is writable < 1340999871 527188 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, Vorpal: Can you understand what I meant now, by a variable belonging to an instruction? < 1340999875 953683 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: I tried to unmap or mprotect [vdso] and didn't manage it. < 1340999894 456767 :pikhq!~pikhq@168-103-248-160.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: If it's writable and not COW then that's a pretty major vuln. < 1340999896 65191 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, don't /think/ so. Since it contains some shared memory with the kernel, containing that time of day value < 1340999900 390543 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the user space gettimeofday < 1340999909 218839 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i remember a mmap_min_addr bypass where you construct an executable where the only location for the VDSO is 0 < 1340999918 953832 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1340999929 961281 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :As far as I know there's no way to get rid of [vdso]/[vsyscall]. < 1340999937 872718 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :speaking of which, I wish root could disable mmap_min_addr for a specific process, rather than for the whole system < 1340999947 886312 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't you? < 1340999948 37559 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: probably not possible, for one you have no idea how an immediate gets encoded into memory on your cpu, and self-modifying code might not work at all < 1340999955 683147 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, I have an emulator (ppc mac os classic emulator) that needs mmap_min_addr set to 0 to run < 1340999978 763619 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :a better solution than switching it for the whole system would be nice < 1340999979 622607 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: I tried! < 1340999991 633039 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about the MMAP_PAGE_ZERO personality bit < 1340999994 880180 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what makes me think [vsyscall] would be ideal for a debugger to do syscalls with. < 1340999995 329177 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you accept that it only sometimes works, then sure it's possible but I see no sane reason for someone to add it to LLVM < 1340999996 130180 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you set that from userspace < 1341000000 105950 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: That is why you would need to make it a metadata which the program that compiles the LLVM code to the native code, must figure out how to encode it properly, or just ignore it < 1341000006 762181 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, yeah afaik the vdso is not writable and not COW < 1341000013 608961 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1341000015 955408 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :look at the mapping: 7fff94549000-7fff9454a000 r-xp 00000000 00:00 0 [vdso] < 1341000018 300903 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :not writabloe < 1341000020 461193 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :writable* < 1341000020 697344 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, but can it be remapped < 1341000024 259885 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf says no, but i haven't tried < 1341000041 218463 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, why would it need to be remapped? Everything can be RIP relative < 1341000048 430565 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm maybe not on 32-bit though? < 1341000051 496399 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure how that works < 1341000061 624080 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: does not seem relevant < 1341000070 638424 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i meant, are you allowed to call mprotect() on it to add the write bit < 1341000078 229578 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: I'd love to be wrong! < 1341000081 654740 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would doubt it, try it < 1341000099 158441 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: on i386 you get an auxv entry for the start of VDSO and another for the syscall entry point < 1341000101 681912 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Maybe you don't want to add it to LLVM, but I think it is good idea. If it is done with a metadata like this, there may be no need for it to be a part of LLVM since the backend can just parse it if it is there < 1341000104 503408 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :An easier way to test than what I did would be to try to write to it from gdb. < 1341000124 767765 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Backends that cannot use this !owns metadata can ignore it. < 1341000144 481714 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : olsner, Vorpal: Can you understand what I meant now, by a variable belonging to an instruction? <-- no < 1341000163 43377 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think he means, if you write to that variable it changes the instruction < 1341000170 378803 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I did explain it though. < 1341000174 169052 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :a variable where "reads" are actually load immediates scattered through the code < 1341000178 216592 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and "writes" change all those instructions < 1341000181 631940 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :linux has or had a mechanism for this < 1341000187 540002 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, it made no sense though < 1341000216 149225 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, not sane basically < 1341000219 500453 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Yes, like that, although it would normally be used to change only the instructions which want that variable as an immediate; other instructions that read it would just read the value directly < 1341000223 107168 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ptrace can in theory write to any memory in the process's address space, no matter what the protection. < 1341000236 80938 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't care if it is sane or not < 1341000237 271272 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It goes so far as to convert a SHARED mapping to a PRIVATE mapping. < 1341000240 783406 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: 7fff5fdc6000-7fff5fdc7000 rwxp 00000000 00:00 0 [vdso] < 1341000246 29235 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i wrote over it, and read the data back out < 1341000246 180568 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : linux has or had a mechanism for this <-- really? < 1341000251 969974 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: yes, look up "immediate values" < 1341000252 133677 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, wow < 1341000256 284272 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, so then it is COW < 1341000261 349965 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1341000262 805871 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, does gettimeofday still work after that? < 1341000266 220068 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno < 1341000269 448018 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :try it < 1341000281 414912 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure where the variables it reads are stored < 1341000287 107148 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably they are in the upper half of memory < 1341000290 508030 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1341000291 771983 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and don't show up in /proc/self/maps < 1341000294 682138 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but are readable by userspace < 1341000306 76905 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Maybe I'm just thinking of [vsyscall], then. < 1341000307 133021 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, I think they are static volatile variables in the vdso? < 1341000316 285942 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe I just got it wrong. I don't remember. < 1341000330 38733 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yes, i wouldn't be surprised if vsyscall is permanently read only < 1341000338 330256 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :having some RWX memory at a fixed address would be a serious security concern < 1341000349 903799 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define gtod (&VVAR(vsyscall_gtod_data)) < 1341000353 155270 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :not much help < 1341000358 303624 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :if they are external to the vdso they can be anywhere < 1341000361 114408 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was clock_gettime though < 1341000388 109834 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the kernel can patch in the address or something < 1341000388 747742 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bfjoust a http://sprunge.us/Pdfb < 1341000391 575655 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​Score for quintopia_a: 56.8 < 1341000405 903994 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm so the variable is basically read until it doesn't change between two reads? < 1341000412 225541 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1341000445 122268 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :bfjoust should be more like core wars. < 1341000451 761026 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :../kernel/vmlinux.lds:.vsyscall_var_vsyscall_gtod_data ADDR(.vsyscall_0) + (3072 + 128) + 128 : AT((ADDR(.vsyscall_var_vsyscall_gtod_data) - ((-10*1024*1024) - __vsyscall_0 + 0xffffffff80000000))) { *(.vsyscall_var_vsyscall_gtod_data) } vsyscall_gtod_data = (ADDR(.vsyscall_var_vsyscall_gtod_data) - ((-10*1024*1024) - __vsyscall_0)); < 1341000451 912707 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would you do that? in case there's a context switch just after you read it? < 1341000452 828896 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrrm < 1341000466 169882 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, because there are two fields < 1341000471 759032 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, so you need to do it atomic < 1341000484 751918 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yeah I guess there could be a context switch < 1341000496 94220 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the middle of reading it < 1341000504 39309 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i,i cmpxchg16b < 1341000504 233220 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : struct timeval { < 1341000504 409326 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : time_t tv_sec; /* seconds */ < 1341000504 560622 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : suseconds_t tv_usec; /* microseconds */ < 1341000504 560799 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : }; < 1341000518 933496 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :time_t is 64-bit, not sure about suseconds_t < 1341000535 145798 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :for clock_gettime it is definitely two 64-bit values < 1341000541 833081 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: ah the joy of linker scripts < 1341000541 984255 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, hm you need a LOCK prefix < 1341000547 783510 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bfjoust a http://sprunge.us/EiIc < 1341000550 970050 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​Score for quintopia_a: 57.5 < 1341000567 674606 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, that one looks generated. No human would write that line < 1341000570 540420 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :suseconds_t is 16-bit, so it only works for the first 65ms of a second < 1341000579 834148 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: you would be surprised < 1341000592 774799 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, no seriously, not on one line < 1341000616 762025 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I added [ ] repeat in ITMCK. It normally has to be all on one line, but it is OK for [ outside of a macro and ] inside of a macro as long as it is tail recursive. Repeat [ ] cannot nest although you can have a macro inside of [ ] which the macro also has [ ] < 1341000623 793121 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, also the second line of the file reads: " * Automatically generated C config: don't edit" < 1341000627 281361 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, -10*1024*1024, that's 0xffffffff600000 < 1341000635 698636 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(You will get error messages if you do it wrong.) < 1341000635 850003 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, on that specific kernel < 1341000639 971281 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Ten megs should be enough for everyone. < 1341000640 940053 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :which I'm not even running atm < 1341000646 973978 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linker scripts are the best, though. < 1341000653 396974 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, wait, is that in the vsyscall page? < 1341000654 117377 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps the simplest way is to use gdb to step into the vsyscall code < 1341000681 385950 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: vsyscall_gtod_data was also a hint if the address wasn't enough < 1341000718 131423 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(gdb) disassemble clock_gettime < 1341000718 338833 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dump of assembler code for function clock_gettime: < 1341000718 490200 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : 0x00007ffff7ffb8d0 < 1341000719 557760 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :the what? < 1341000723 576856 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :that address < 1341000723 728001 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :.bss ALIGN(4) (NOLOAD) : { . = . + 72; f = .; . = . + 4096; /* such a hack */ *(.bss) } (Okay, it wasn't on one line.) < 1341000734 938092 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh maybe this kernel is too old < 1341000737 844254 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(gdb) break gettimeofday < 1341000738 22881 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cannot access memory at address 0x7ffff7ffb9f0 < 1341000739 729797 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is ubuntu 10.04 < 1341000751 471422 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, try disassemble on it? < 1341000751 933306 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: mprotect to make it writeable first? < 1341000757 965495 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right < 1341000781 242968 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I thought glibc called the vdso. rather than you calling it directly < 1341000786 232824 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought there efb < 1341000792 371927 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :efb? < 1341000824 138223 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :that reminds me of that time I set a breakpoint inside what happened to be an immediate NULL value in the code < 1341000824 289785 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't there a version of 'bfjoust' where programs are actually in-memory and can modify each other? < 1341000837 888338 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway I don't have debug symbols for that page < 1341000840 966895 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is painful < 1341000845 865061 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :(speaking of gdb setting breakpoints by modifying code) < 1341000850 894969 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, what happened? < 1341000856 307239 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also want to add runtime subroutines to ITMCK. But there would be some limitations, based on the limitations of the .IT file format: * Runtime subroutines cannot be nested. * Channels must all be synchronized for runtime subroutines (although it may be possible to turn off a channel before calling the subroutine). < 1341000863 558127 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neither of these restrictions applies to macros. < 1341000867 503298 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: the code ran, but set the variable to 0xcc instead of null < 1341000872 380104 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1341000879 29996 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: FukYourBrane? < 1341000887 244871 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: http://esolangs.org/wiki/FukYorBrane not so popular. < 1341000890 231907 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, I thought gdb used hardware breakpoints as long as there were enough around to spare < 1341000911 691012 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :it probably doesn't have access to set those < 1341000926 799822 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, I thought ptrace provided that? < 1341000959 921380 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hbreak -- Set a hardware assisted breakpoint < 1341000967 134953 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, guess it doesn't by default? < 1341000988 637770 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :may or may not work I guess < 1341000999 459215 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you only have like 4 of them per cpu < 1341001002 491636 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-2-99-87-25.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@ping < 1341001003 119178 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :pong < 1341001004 548803 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not so popular? < 1341001014 889523 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find that to be much better than bfjoust. < 1341001023 708888 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-2-99-87-25.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's complicated < 1341001029 222783 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-2-99-87-25.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :bfjoust is simple < 1341001033 164650 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@pung < 1341001033 774869 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, well it works to break on _init in /bin/cat at least < 1341001033 926304 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :pong < 1341001039 502965 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :The data buffer for each of them is the opponent's program buffer. < 1341001040 211945 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1341001043 765902 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually I guess runtime subroutines probably could be nested, although there would still be the restriction against desynchronized subroutines. < 1341001043 992409 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :that seems weird. < 1341001048 41007 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, not per core? < 1341001064 666133 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: "edit: fuck, beaten" < 1341001074 67258 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, on what? < 1341001074 852179 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-2-99-87-25.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is skype not working for anyone else? < 1341001076 351590 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :FukYorBrane sucks. :) < 1341001083 92806 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was going to say what you had just said < 1341001088 687630 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1341001102 702306 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, also what about hyper threading here ;P < 1341001103 807981 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean to BF programs running in the SAME memory. < 1341001115 170170 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :*two < 1341001120 542927 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: There's some undocumented special features in the hardware breakpoint #0, it had some sort of data-conditional (with masks) thingamajik. < 1341001125 104425 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :like < 1341001147 323774 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, undocumented eh? Anyway data-conditional aren't that uncommon. Quite useful sometimes < 1341001154 718096 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably very limited since it is hw < 1341001156 520490 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :but whatever < 1341001177 765598 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :.....+[]1...........[->]2... < 1341001185 746836 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :where 1 is where the cell pointer of program 1 points to < 1341001186 289194 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, it was something very limited. < 1341001193 755218 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :and 2 where the cell pointer of program 2 points to. < 1341001202 69163 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, the best hardware breakpoints I ever used was on AVR (with a debugger board connected to it with JTAG). IIRC they were quite numerous and had a lot of functionality < 1341001207 623963 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: *shrug* I did mean cpu==core, but there may be interesting conditionals of course < 1341001209 658913 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :JTAG is awesome btw < 1341001213 736874 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Is [vdso] in kernel address space in 32-bit Linux but user address space in 64-bit Linux? < 1341001226 257097 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf, I doubt that... < 1341001235 455430 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, i think it's user mapped in both < 1341001239 614294 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But perhaps there should be some command it ITMCK which allows you to have multiple entry points and to specify the order number for each one, for compatibility with programs that expect specific order numbers. < 1341001249 337926 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :f57fe000-f57ff000 r-xp 00000000 00:00 0 [vdso] < 1341001252 838566 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :b7827000-b7828000 r-xp 00000000 00:00 0 [vdso] < 1341001264 209599 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: that must be on a 64-bit kernel? < 1341001280 526578 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf, aren't both of those in the the same address space? Below the upper 1 GB on 32-bit that is < 1341001287 148463 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Hmm, I guess it is. < 1341001311 886485 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :on a 64-bit kernel, 32-bit processes get the full 4GB < 1341001318 41925 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1341001319 304942 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1341001320 10803 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :though, I don't know where the magic vsyscall variables go then! < 1341001331 875530 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: No, it's a 32-bit kernel. < 1341001333 747902 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, they aren't on 32-bit? That fixed page I mean < 1341001344 759298 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, so what would it matter < 1341001345 740201 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :10MB below 4GB perhaps? < 1341001352 524003 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: huh < 1341001365 928732 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, all you have to do is map in a single page somewhere with your data. You could reserve a full page inside your VDSO for that < 1341001366 404731 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: the rest of libraries are mapped around 0xb0000000? < 1341001377 121940 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Yep. < 1341001377 609399 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that one of those pages happens to be empty apart from the shared variables < 1341001385 12621 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then you just map that page in specially < 1341001389 173960 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, sounds reasonable? < 1341001394 98606 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :because iirc that is how it is done < 1341001402 539824 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :not 100% sure though < 1341001409 684672 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it's tricky though < 1341001420 914796 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to make sure that user writes to that page will fault < 1341001430 988886 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(either to implement COW or just abort, it's not really relevant) < 1341001443 914925 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Bah, the postings about it seem to have vanished. But from some related posts, you need to have 0x9c5a203a in edi for the controlling MSRs to actually appear to exist. And they were AMD-only. So, very undocumented. < 1341001448 783988 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :COW sounds counter-productive on the page that contains the current time and things like that < 1341001451 205436 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the page has to be readable from userspace and writable from kernel < 1341001462 224145 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: sure, but maybe you should allow userspace to COW that page if they really want to < 1341001468 715553 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: maybe it's the simplest default behavior, i don't know < 1341001484 464643 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, i think i know what < 1341001491 313899 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you set up another mapping to that physical page < 1341001525 213699 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah you would do this anyway < 1341001533 498027 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, heh < 1341001547 224145 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :because x86 doesn't have bits for "ro for user, rw for kernel" afaik < 1341001556 234638 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just has "user" and "writable" < 1341001557 841525 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : you have to make sure that user writes to that page will fault <-- just set the page protections for that? < 1341001585 529207 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: there's a flag for ignoring write protection entirely in kernel mode < 1341001589 33389 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, so you map that physical page into two different virtual addresses yes < 1341001606 65575 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :then again, linux relies on that stuff for security so probably that's useless < 1341001606 546948 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: oh yeah! < 1341001607 805580 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :good stuff < 1341001620 798991 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i learned about that from the kernel exploitation book ;) < 1341001622 418276 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, pretty sure linux doesn't use that, since there is an option to write protect certain kernel structures in the kernel config < 1341001625 841078 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :on by default < 1341001635 395951 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can turn it off in the debug section of the kernel config < 1341001640 815118 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :linux relies on it for several things < 1341001649 811687 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, it does? Then why that flag? < 1341001654 871958 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example read(2) should respect the page tables < 1341001655 939254 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :or does it switch back and forth? < 1341001664 598894 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should not be able to read into read-only memory < 1341001666 44749 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(heh) < 1341001679 468846 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the writes within sys_read() or whatever should fault < 1341001682 118969 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, you should only read *out* of read-only memory < 1341001691 877 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean, write out of read-only memory ;) < 1341001692 391325 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also I remember Linux/ARM dropped support for PTRACE_SINGLESTEP, because it used to work by using breakpoint-based emulation, and the kernel ARM instruction decoder was too broken (no Thumb-2 and not all instructions anyway) to figure out where to put the breakpoint always. < 1341001710 211223 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@178235038077.elblag.vectranet.pl QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1341001710 996171 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the pagefault handler has a table of places in the kernel code where a fault means some sensible error condition rather than a kernel bug < 1341001727 172805 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :specifically, you can annotate any instruction in the kernel with "if this instruction faults, jump to here" < 1341001727 324404 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Apparently there's no hardware-assisted direct single-step feature on ARM.) < 1341001753 658552 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And not too many people were actually using it.) < 1341001762 872473 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the kernel honoring user memory mapping really has two parts < 1341001776 489461 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :one is the address check, "is it above 0xc0000000" or whatever < 1341001777 574234 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I guess gdb can emulate it using breakpoints < 1341001788 3230 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :that whole approach to kernel/user memory access seems horrible < 1341001791 41197 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other is handling faults on reads/writes to userspace < 1341001794 377843 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: yes it is < 1341001815 207801 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it was performant enough, and doing the checks manually is also pretty horrible < 1341001828 154177 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is what x86 segmentation was designed for! < 1341001830 821235 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Yes, apparently gdb "stepi" does it in userspace by doing ptrace PEEKTEXT to see where it should put a breakpoint, and handles the instruction decoding by itself. < 1341001840 172030 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like ideal for this < 1341001845 232814 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, btw did you know that if you have some inline asm in C with a loop inside and you try to step (to the next source line) it will take forever because what it does is repeatedly single step < 1341001859 878871 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, on x86 that is < 1341001865 675796 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, linux doesn't use it because it's not portable < 1341001867 301593 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :or x86-64 actually < 1341001881 537654 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :PaX patches do use it though < 1341001898 75952 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, you can build a Linux kernel where userspace and kernelspace have different sets of page tables, but it's uncommon and has a performance penalty < 1341001943 579207 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, pax must be 32-bit only then? < 1341001982 555745 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, anyway the different page table thing, isn't that what is done for VT-x with the nested page table thing on nehalem (sp?) and later < 1341002026 397878 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: PaX has a number of features < 1341002036 503235 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, okay? < 1341002039 762140 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of them don't depend on segmentation < 1341002042 639601 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1341002053 814222 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was talking about the particular feature of "kernel can't read from userspace unless it knows it's doing so" < 1341002059 42322 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1341002066 438939 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :which on i386 is implemented with segmentation < 1341002074 740460 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and on amd64 they have a slower implementation using some page table voodoo < 1341002080 1764 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :which i don't understand in detail < 1341002084 475357 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, heh < 1341002096 756885 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, and on ARM? < 1341002111 756893 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yeah I hear that VT-x supports what amounts to tagged TLB, which is a welcome feature < 1341002124 944496 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: i don't know anything about the state of PaX on architectures other than x86-{32,64} < 1341002145 227143 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, my desktop should support it. it is sandy bridge. my laptop is core 2 duo though, so it can do VT-x, but not the nested page table < 1341002161 13858 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :is ARM a clean architecture or is it just as bad? < 1341002179 331028 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the address space ID:s only come on some (higher-end? xeon?) cpus < 1341002185 702115 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ARM is cleaner than x86 < 1341002188 944604 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is less history, for one < 1341002193 455700 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's not without its share of weirdness < 1341002197 434134 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1341002198 861091 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :such as? < 1341002200 335210 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders if there is a zoidberg programming language http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/vsstl/confessions_of_a_php_addict/c57efs1?context=2
< 1341002209 853983 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :remember, the RISC philosophy is to push weirdness into the ISA, with the goal of making the implementation simpler < 1341002215 262381 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, really? Hm < 1341002246 92924 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, well, but any amusing examples? < 1341002255 685024 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ARM is sort of a "second generation RISC" in that the designers thought very carefully about the traditional drawbacks of RISC and tried to counteract them < 1341002267 153127 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: I remember reading a sentence that sounded like that somewhat recently, too. < 1341002269 734315 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: well, for one, most ARM chips support two different ISAs < 1341002273 522653 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ARM and Thumb < 1341002277 140174 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well true < 1341002278 934598 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and Thumb comes in two major versions too < 1341002283 461424 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, also a 64-bit ARM is in the works < 1341002287 929817 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :in any case, a reasonable fallback implementation is to just mask off the ASID part of cr3 and flush the TLB every time < 1341002291 389622 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :no product yet announced < 1341002297 199641 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that will add a third ISA < 1341002298 477563 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ARM, Thumb, and Thumb-2 all have completely different ways of handling conditionals < 1341002307 238970 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1341002319 634712 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay so it will add a fourth ISA then < 1341002325 253489 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can call between ARM and Thumb{,-2} code < 1341002341 627079 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the "am I in Thumb" bit is stored in the (ignored) LSB of the instruction pointer < 1341002344 127204 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, how do they handle conditionals? Isn't it just a case of checking a flag register and jumping based on that? < 1341002357 537075 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is nice, because it's saved and restored with calls < 1341002360 961005 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but also a little wacky < 1341002367 100550 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: on ARM, *any* instruction can be made conditional < 1341002373 645988 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, like CMOV < 1341002373 797079 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :this cuts down on the number of branches, hence pipeline stalls < 1341002376 834966 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1341002381 165748 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but any instruction :) < 1341002383 344599 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fair enough < 1341002391 426244 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Thumb-1 you have conditional branches only < 1341002393 428078 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, fairly limited possible conditions though I guess? < 1341002398 113200 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Thumb-2 you have this even wackier thing < 1341002423 591847 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1341002426 556844 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you do your test or whatever, and then you issue a pseudoinstruction like IF or ITTF < 1341002432 637222 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :IF means "do the next instruction only if false" < 1341002436 420133 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1341002440 926247 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ITTF means "do the next 2 instructions if true, and the one after that if false" < 1341002446 898390 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can conditionalize 4 instructions this wya < 1341002449 261374 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't that the same as variable length instructions < 1341002450 495705 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :x86 could've replaced its conditional jumps with conditional-execution prefixes < 1341002453 37826 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :with prefixes < 1341002455 394368 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: sort of < 1341002464 589151 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :except the two instruction thingy... < 1341002466 81307 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, You said it stored if it was Thumb in the LSB, what about Thumb-1/Thumb-2? Or doesn't a CPU support both at the same time? < 1341002477 76743 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thumb-2 is a superset of Thumb-1, iirc < 1341002483 27640 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1341002486 620883 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :also is there any overhead from the switching? < 1341002489 506238 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno < 1341002505 245641 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thumb-2 is supposed to be mostly a replacement for the original ARM ISA < 1341002517 827677 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, so you don't ever leave Thumb? < 1341002518 729194 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas Thumb-1 is limited and it's expected that you call back into ARM routines for some things < 1341002521 783315 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1341002524 120950 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1341002526 657610 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe a bit, for OS stuff. i don't know really < 1341002536 216814 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, what about the ARM64 stuff then? < 1341002537 456709 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :regarding "fairly limited possible conditions", i think it has the usual ones < 1341002538 170703 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :based on how common the ARM/Thumb cross-jumps are, I think they're supposedly mostly overhead free < 1341002540 698904 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :not released yet, but in the works < 1341002544 664062 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :no idea about ARM64 < 1341002551 690838 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, iirc there wouldn't be a new Thumb variant for it < 1341002564 847573 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, they will probably try to design a single variable length encoding like Thumb-2 and stick to it < 1341002569 187199 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe they just decided to go with a Thumb like 64-bit thingy < 1341002576 837718 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :they should call it Leg and use 64-bit long instructions < 1341002576 989061 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you don't need to support fast 64-to-32 calls the way you need to support Thumb-1 to ARM calls < 1341002586 102889 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it can be in a privileged flag bit < 1341002587 355612 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: hahaha < 1341002601 828111 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, Thumb-2 is variable length? What about Thumb-1 and ARM? < 1341002603 814202 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: another wacky thing about ARM is that there are multiple incompatible FPUs used with it < 1341002612 285993 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ARM has 32-bit instructions < 1341002619 857834 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1341002622 390020 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :both Thumb ISAs have some 16- and some 32-bit instructions < 1341002625 299518 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is huge < 1341002636 126742 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :one advantage of Thumb is, it executes much faster on embedded processors with only 16-bit data bus < 1341002641 818900 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1341002653 633688 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ARM isn't only for shiny smartphones, the cheapest ARM chips cost like $3 < 1341002664 89697 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know < 1341002670 759500 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are many variants of ARM owing to its licensed nature < 1341002672 22420 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is in bulk though < 1341002686 963934 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: it's pretty nice that the instructions have all that space though, everything has a condition, and most instructions have three operands plus one operand register can have a shift offset for free < 1341002688 265062 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway why the incompatible FPUs < 1341002704 861985 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: because they didn't specifiy one initially, and then different licensees integrated differet ones? < 1341002707 766556 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know really < 1341002708 651811 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, what about long jumps though? < 1341002712 82024 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :like 3DNow / MMX, but worse < 1341002716 767036 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1341002721 684509 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ARM does have a uniform way to talk to coprocessors, though < 1341002726 16768 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a set of instructions reserved for that < 1341002731 976302 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's how you talk to the MMU too, iirc < 1341002732 690089 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, I hope the high end ARM does have a unified FPU? < 1341002733 428886 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have one < 1341002733 725444 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: for jumping far, Leg is recommended instead of ARM < 1341002740 991601 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, ... < 1341002749 274534 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: yeah, there is now a standard SIMD instruction set too < 1341002750 175500 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :NEON < 1341002773 249937 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, I meant when your jump target needs a 32-bit address, rather than something you can embed in a 32-bit address < 1341002778 653753 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :err 32-bit instruction* < 1341002794 520412 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: also, in addition to ARM and Thumb, there is another mode for hardware-assisted JVM < 1341002798 844323 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :though it is vestigial in recent chips < 1341002805 885469 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, riight? What mode is that < 1341002811 61715 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jazelle < 1341002813 755610 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1341002821 864611 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :what did it provide for JVM support then? < 1341002827 996197 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there's *another* mode called ThumbEE (Thumb Execution Environment) < 1341002841 347483 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is a variant of Thumb used for running managed code more efficiently < 1341002853 996963 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: load the address, then jump to it ... the usual thing with RISC and large immediate values, I guess < 1341002863 836252 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"New features provided by ThumbEE include automatic null pointer checks on every load and store instruction, an instruction to perform an array bounds check, ..." < 1341002893 944184 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: they never published the specs you would need to make a JVM that takes advantage of Jazelle < 1341002895 35015 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, ah okay. I seem to remember AVR did have a long jump though, even though otherwise it was mostly RISC < 1341002913 633749 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, that sounds stupid < 1341002931 457192 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"For the avoidance of doubt, distribution of products containing software code to exercise the BXJ instruction and enable the use of the ARM Jazelle architecture extension without [..] agreement from ARM is expressly forbidden" < 1341002937 582131 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yeah < 1341002938 856285 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty shitty < 1341002943 167607 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it never really caught on, iirc < 1341002949 294801 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ThumbEE is the less shitty replacement < 1341002949 565629 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: it implemented some java bytecodes directly in hardware, supposedly has something for array bounds checks and a way to describe some parts of how your heap looks so that the Jazelle thing can do it for you < 1341002967 2715 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, ah < 1341002981 173829 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone compiled Qt on N900 with -mfp=neon and had that Stellarium night-sky-browser app go from 10 fps to 60 fps. < 1341002993 407875 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think for any recent implementation of the thing, all it does is read a byte and jump to the registered "unhandled instruction" handler < 1341003002 963260 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, so why wasn't Qt compiled like that by default? < 1341003023 693461 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or is that -mfpu=neon. Anyway, the one that makes it do autovectorization. < 1341003040 186817 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1341003041 297667 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some option that contained the substring "neon" anyway. < 1341003049 173856 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Max SendQ exceeded < 1341003057 180618 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, so why wasn't it done like that by default < 1341003073 41284 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, anyway Stellarium uses opengl right? So why not just use the GPU of the device < 1341003073 498822 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Might not have been so well-supported by GCC when it was originally compiled, or something. < 1341003076 98402 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :to do the heavy work < 1341003087 912413 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does use EGL, I believe, yes. < 1341003106 85087 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :please tell me there is a hardware GPU on that phone? < 1341003109 209567 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure. < 1341003117 429982 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm then what < 1341003121 634867 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that kind of depends on the software author offloading enough work there. < 1341003126 462378 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1341003146 624326 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that you can do efficient communication between CPU and GPU to get useful work done < 1341003169 166486 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, well stellarium just need to provider a couple of shaders and a sky texture < 1341003171 894568 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is all really < 1341003183 485772 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and update some coordinates for where the user is looking < 1341003188 551749 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, so what's Qt doing in there? < 1341003192 126033 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :no idea < 1341003210 558713 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does have a Qt UI. Anyway, I don't know the details; just saw the reported results. < 1341003216 195541 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1341003229 537129 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also I don't know how good the GPU is. It's the same OMAP 3430 SoC / PowerVR SGX 530 GPU / TMS320C64x DSP combo that was in many phones at that time. < 1341003232 441553 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, have you recompiled it like that? < 1341003253 247002 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Droid, I think. < 1341003261 739458 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And no. I mean, I don't have Stellarium installed either. :p < 1341003267 92786 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I have many Qt apps on it. < 1341003328 960380 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I haven't bothered to mess with the software very much. Haven't even installed the CSSU, the community-supplied "System Software Update" that they made now that Nokia's no longer interested. < 1341003342 986300 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1341003391 932973 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay for abandoned platforms < 1341003395 399596 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The DSP is real fancy, though; I did get some TI docs and tools to maybe write some code for it, just haven't managed to actually. < 1341003407 399587 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a VLIWy thing, I've never really written code by hand for one. < 1341003412 785583 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1341003416 782866 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably not a sensible thing to do either, but just for recreation. < 1341003417 871946 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1341003425 87152 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what is it normally used for? < 1341003428 625658 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :256-bit instructions. < 1341003436 771731 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does the usual, video/music decoding. < 1341003437 216962 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and those are used for what? sound? < 1341003439 382592 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1341003459 406734 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think on later OMAP chips they've dropped the separate DSP core and just use the GPU. Possibly. < 1341003482 668776 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :which brand is OMAP? < 1341003485 306095 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, it does JPEG encoding for the camera app too. < 1341003490 629006 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :the arm echo system is confusing < 1341003498 36992 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah you can get raw photos then? congrats < 1341003500 836569 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :OMAP is TI's platform. < 1341003523 171333 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can get raw images if you install the custom camera drivers, yes. The stock camera app doesn't do it. < 1341003523 543282 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :when used for music, the GPU could be called a Groove Processing Unit < 1341003531 360193 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, fair enough < 1341003542 337105 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, you are not oerjan < 1341003543 601565 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :stop that < 1341003563 773555 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: stop what? < 1341003565 224822 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the JPEG quality factor in the stock app is hardcoded for the DSP-driven encoder. If you want to change it, you have to also switch to a CPU encoder. So lazy. < 1341003569 390193 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, the terrible puns < 1341003597 710826 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1341003627 741633 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :How does the rules for ARM Jazelle to use BXJ work like that? Why is permission required? < 1341003644 322108 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, looks like an NDA? < 1341003650 885589 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's because they want money for it < 1341003683 266529 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :or possibly they have licensed the java stuff from somewhere that requires licenses < 1341003693 183971 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a version of ARM that does not have those instructions? < 1341003715 549383 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, looks from the wikipedia summary like ARM64 will be similar to ARM32. Which doesn't seem sensible to me < 1341003718 919012 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I think most versions don't support the extension at all < 1341003766 356720 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Correction: seems that even the latest OMAP generation (OMAP 5, not even out yet) has a discrete DSP. Well, they're Texas Instruments, I guess they felt like they had to. But they've certainly complicated the thing in other ways: "OMAP 5 SoC uses a dual-core ARM Cortex-A15 CPU with two additional Cortex-M4 cores to offload the A15s in less computionally intensive tasks to increase ... < 1341003772 351454 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :... power efficiency, two PowerVR SGX544MP graphics cores and a dedicated TI 2D BitBlt graphics accelerator, a multi-pipe display sub-system and a signal processor." < 1341003780 265270 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway i do like the core ARM architecture < 1341003783 937912 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :conditional instructions are cool < 1341003796 388126 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the instruction pointer is a general purpose register < 1341003801 307536 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, nice. Is that as many cores as the PS2 yet? < 1341003817 533961 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh also < 1341003829 761465 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :in addition to deciding which instructions are conditional < 1341003829 912526 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, so that's like 9 different cpu-like things in one SoC < 1341003837 483666 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can also decide which arithmetic instructions update the condition flags < 1341003850 821705 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's kind of necessary for it to work well < 1341003856 6967 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :or 6 different ones, plus three that are similar to three of those 6 < 1341003857 166344 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm my phone has a Exynos 4212 Quad < 1341003861 449669 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should check the specs on that < 1341003885 686984 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :also there's a cool instruction which transfers any subset of the registers to or from memory < 1341003902 136055 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :which can be use for pushing/popping blocks of registers across a function call < 1341003905 556790 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :or just for bulk data transfers < 1341003944 713014 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :to make it better, those are the push and pop instructions, and can also be used to return from a function by pushing the link register and popping the program counter < 1341003974 6413 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: If you like that, how about that FirePath? It's got conditional SIMD stuff, you can do "cmphib p0, r1, r2" to individually compare all bytes of r1/r2, store the results in predicate register p0, and then do a predicated "p0.movb r2, r1" to move only the ones for which the comparisons were true? < 1341003982 952460 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, it's designed by Sophie Wilson too. < 1341003984 9675 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's neat < 1341004008 746062 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : also there's a cool instruction which transfers any subset of the registers to or from memory <-- how can you define any subset? A bitmask? < 1341004012 729919 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1341004018 790053 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sadly, there's very little material about it anywhere, Broadcom uses it in their DSLAMs and such but that's about it. < 1341004042 126336 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, that limits the number of registers you can have. ARM64 is going to have 32-bit instruction and 31 general purpose 64-bit registers < 1341004052 214504 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't think that is going to work if the bitmask is immediate < 1341004071 481833 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1341004073 114109 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if it isn't the function to save registers seems kind of useless < 1341004074 689782 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(After buying Element 14, the folks that split out of Acorn.) < 1341004086 993842 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :another bit of ARM trivia: in the standard ABI, there's a register reserved for use by the *linker* < 1341004097 473978 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: it is possible that they will change one or two things in ARM64 < 1341004103 224196 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :linking two functions might require the linker to emit some code, if the functions are sufficiently far apart < 1341004116 473077 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, yes they likely will < 1341004127 1345 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, MIPS has one register reserved for the assembler. It's just fair. :p < 1341004133 73040 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, it is going to be "mostly the same" as the 32-bit ARM ISA though it says < 1341004134 445176 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Temporary in pseudo-ops.) < 1341004175 697918 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And two for the kernel. I wonder if/how Linux-on-MIPS uses those. < 1341004187 31175 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :program counter as a GPR also means you get PC-relative addressing in a uniform way for free < 1341004280 304163 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, is it usual for the compasses in smartphones to be good? In the smartphones I used previously they were mostly crap. In my new phone it seems deadly accurate though... < 1341004617 241767 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :No compass at all, so can't really comment first-hand. < 1341004653 745661 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Irrelated; the C54x DSP, which was the one of the platforms on the "DSP and audio processing" course, is not VLIW, but it has a couple of specific "do these two things in parallel" instructions. The syntax, though... I mean, here's a comb filter: http://sprunge.us/HZie -- the parallel syntax is that || thing, and the two lines are actually a single instruction. < 1341004721 11448 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ouch < 1341004747 796979 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's very restricted which two instructions you can ||, I think there weren't more than three or four specific combinations. < 1341004792 696159 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I think with additional restrictions on the available registers/addressing modes because they were running out of bits. < 1341004874 18891 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1341004899 311504 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also funny: http://sprunge.us/bGgA < 1341004914 422057 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "useful.txt" lists which files are worth looking at. There were seven. < 1341004940 202135 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It was a giant zip of documentation they gave us.) < 1341004979 975074 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1341004988 77708 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And of course the documentation numbers don't have any sort of logic. Though I'm sure there's a list somewhere. < 1341005016 518707 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :But e.g. spru131g.pdf, spru172c.pdf and spru302.pdf are volumes 1, 2 and 5 (the useful ones) of the C54x DSP Reference Manual. < 1341005029 723863 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1341005078 453094 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I liked that course a whole lot, incidentally. < 1341005097 335176 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1341005126 848017 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, you got to write some assembly, that's always good fun. I think there were a total of two courses like that, including this one. < 1341005165 42903 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And also to play with unusual (from my viewpoint, anyway) hardware. < 1341005179 635790 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :all good fun :) < 1341005216 31290 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though we did waste like three days wondering what was wrong in our serial communication thing before finding out the speaker cable I had "borrowed" for the purpose was actually broken, and worked/not-worked vaguely depending on the angle it was in. < 1341005229 849157 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd like to write me some "GPU assembly" at some point < 1341005230 898309 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1341005240 404699 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what about VHDL or Verilog? < 1341005267 286998 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, you can't really, the required information isn't really public < 1341005270 519394 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a bit of that available, but I didn't end up taking those courses. Probably would've been fun, but you can't do all. < 1341005279 85078 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: exactly < 1341005312 804259 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :intel supposedly released complete documentation on their ivy bridge GPU, but probably none of that is applicable for other vendors < 1341005340 26924 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The DSP course was, incidentally, the one where we had that TI-86 driven control device I'm sure I've mentioned before. < 1341005343 194258 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the worst case it's just more x86 cpus < 1341005350 600058 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: i don't think i heard about it < 1341005507 306430 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: See, the task (for us) was to do some sort of an echo effect on the DSP, but the devel board only has like four buttons and four leds, so it doesn't do much IO. So we (well, one in our three-person group) wrote a TI-86 proggie to graphically show four slider controls that controlled the effect, and then communicated changes in those from the TI-86 link port to the board's serial port. (We ... < 1341005510 321884 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, that is intel GPU, not very useful :P < 1341005513 295137 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :... spent quite long trying to make the very programmable serial port hardware help us collect the bits, but didn't quite manage that; ended up with a software polling solution instead.) < 1341005574 937350 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you must have spent ages on that project < 1341005587 553230 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Probably a bit more than we should've. :p < 1341005594 420252 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, right < 1341005613 700623 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, best in class though? < 1341005614 254561 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What DSP can we use for audio and video which GNU C compiler or LLVM can compile into and which has free assemblers and emulators and is not too expensive? < 1341005639 210288 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, was that the graph calc interface that looked weird? < 1341005644 947669 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember you mentioning something like that < 1341005668 324360 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Well, the effect itself wasn't all that impressive, and I don't think everyone else in the class really appreciated the TI-86 control enough. But we had unarguably the best TI-86 control interface in class, at least. < 1341005672 813151 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it was that one. < 1341005687 547844 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I don't remember how it was weird though < 1341005724 910634 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's a collection of photos from our slides: http://users.ics.aalto.fi/htkallas/dsp-collage.png < 1341005727 226891 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: cool < 1341005734 138719 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It had that whip image, at least. < 1341005744 74974 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And another whip-themed thing for when you pressed "send" on the calc. < 1341005772 125536 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm right < 1341005774 664503 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was it < 1341005774 815751 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Due to the name of the course, "SPÄNK", "signaaliprosessorit ja äänenkäsittely", "DSPs and sound processing".) < 1341005783 842721 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :riiight < 1341005800 234908 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also I think the lecturer had some number of spanking-related puns. < 1341005955 954264 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :riiight < 1341005997 934628 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Clockwise from top-left: there's the Perl prototype for the actual effect; oscilloscope from some "broken wire" debugging sessions; TI's Code Composer Studio which must've crashed at least three dozen times, especially often when debugging on the live device; Audacity showing some simulated output; and in the middle the development board itself.) < 1341006012 612788 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right: it didn't even have four buttons, it had four DIP switches. < 1341006064 646371 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :One of the other platforms were some sort of musician-oriented device, so it had actual turnable knobs and anything. < 1341006220 202884 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1341006275 698486 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.chameleon.synth.net/english/index.shtml <- that thing. < 1341006280 749672 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think. < 1341006291 395676 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least there's a link from the old course page to there, so it must be somehow related. < 1341006302 970267 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it does say "24bit programmable audio dsp engine", so I suppose it's programmable. < 1341006330 189154 :Lumpio-!~matti@62-113-182-248.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :What you DSPing < 1341006343 307945 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nothing, now; it was just an old course. < 1341006349 932990 :Lumpio-!~matti@62-113-182-248.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :k < 1341006370 111291 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Chameleon has a Motorola DSP56k in it. < 1341006424 628508 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :24-bit words, how fancy. (The C54x has 16-bit words.) < 1341006501 801148 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And the third device was a 32-bit floating-point SHARC from Analog Devices; technically even fancier.) < 1341006551 576088 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1341006622 694239 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I recall correctly, the platform for each group was allocated randomly, to guarantee an even split. (Limited amount of devices to test on.) < 1341006953 244384 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1341006960 97550 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :so not the same platform for everyone? < 1341006963 386136 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kind of sad < 1341006996 580511 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I think there were about a dozen groups on the course, so that'd make about four groups for each of the three systems. < 1341007133 724397 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see the C54x had MIPS-like branch delay slots, it'd run two (or one with an immediate) instructions after each branch before actually branching. < 1341007162 289140 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-2-99-87-25.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1341007174 883977 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Got sidetracked reading our old code here.) < 1341008145 2869 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, side tracked from what? < 1341008168 431637 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, btw, an average day at work, what do you do apart from IRC? You seem to be available like 90% of the time < 1341008483 328466 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION finds this question amusing.
< 1341008527 585341 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think he may be sleeping < 1341008560 371129 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ircing and sleeping, all in a day's work < 1341008582 598476 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite < 1341008615 909159 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1341008632 200410 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not quite, just away. Anyway, I don't think I generally talk the *whole* day, I just have the IRC client left open on the same screen as email. < 1341008639 711854 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i do the math (no pun intended) and decide that by doing absolutely nothing i am probably contributing to society < 1341008643 328425 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, right < 1341008665 221438 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, you have really low self esteem < 1341008675 872782 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :not healthy < 1341008697 474801 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well if the bad guys are contributing -7 -5 -22 -3.. then 0 is a lot < 1341008713 881100 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 JOIN :#esoteric < 1341008714 99499 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i'm not a 0 < 1341008719 943598 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :some days i'm maybe a -2 < 1341008730 182452 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8 < 1341008732 252333 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh comeon < 1341008737 132419 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :come on* < 1341008748 332755 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :also that way to measure it seems rather unusual < 1341008752 101013 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean by it < 1341008779 862066 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> ((-7) + (-5) + (-22) + (-3) + 0 ) / 5 < 1341008780 931754 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : -7.4 < 1341008792 490246 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> ((-7) + (-5) + (-22) + (-3) ) / 4 < 1341008793 392015 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : -9.25 < 1341008798 831100 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :that seems pretty pessimistic < 1341008799 18297 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i am doing < 1341008808 87873 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :such an outlook on your own contribution < 1341008837 583143 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (-7.4) + 9.25 < 1341008838 459757 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : 1.8499999999999996 < 1341008853 682743 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1341008868 133658 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure that is not a good model for contributing to a channel < 1341008890 756205 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didn't just mean the channel < 1341008905 639935 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but contributing to anything < 1341008929 435221 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1341008964 976406 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> ((-7) + (-5) + (-22) + (-3) + 1.85 ) / 5 < 1341008966 56992 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : -7.029999999999999 < 1341008972 21422 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, even more pessimistic < 1341008977 588181 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :things are getting better already < 1341009075 723128 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1341009093 364560 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, what if you actually make a positive contribution? < 1341009098 61162 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :like +5 or something < 1341009174 718628 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is impossible by any means to avoid being in someone elses way some of the time < 1341009185 919323 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but thats ok < 1341009206 830109 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :im kinda tired and sleepy, but i plan to visit the chemist < 1341009237 424302 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok she opens at 9am < 1341009242 482178 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@time < 1341009243 16213 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Local time for itidus21 is Sat Jun 30 08:32:23 < 1341009251 429647 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bfjoust simple [>[(+)*10[-]](+)*15>[(+)*10[-]](-)*15] < 1341009254 157581 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​Score for quintopia_simple: 16.9 < 1341009281 113688 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> ((-7) + (-5) + (-22) + (-3) + (1.85+5) + 16.9) / 6 < 1341009282 193052 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : -2.2083333333333335 < 1341009413 715405 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Option 2, Depart Sat, 9:12 am, Arrive < 1341009413 903632 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sat, 9:25 am, Duration < 1341009414 55141 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :0h 13m < 1341009632 390646 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll be happier when this trip is over < 1341009768 84978 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bfjoust simple (>[>>(>(+)*20[-]++)*20](+)*15>[>>(>(+)*20[-]++)*20](-)*15)*15 < 1341009770 858920 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​Score for quintopia_simple: 24.9 < 1341009775 669358 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1341010048 422466 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bfjoust simple (>[>>(>(+)*35[-]++)*20](+)*15>[>>(>(+)*35[-]++)*20](-)*15)*15 < 1341010051 70384 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​Score for quintopia_simple: 22.1 < 1341010055 612391 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bfjoust simple (>[>>(>(+)*20[-]++)*20](+)*15>[>>(>(+)*20[-]++)*20](-)*15)*15 < 1341010058 348812 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​Score for quintopia_simple: 25.0 < 1341010066 493418 :MDude!~fyrc@67.232.231.10 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1341010351 42200 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bfjoust simple (+)*10(>[>>(>(+)*20[-]++)*20](+)*15>[>>(>(+)*20[-]++)*20](-)*15)*15 < 1341010353 722168 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​Score for quintopia_simple: 29.2 < 1341011179 159346 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :LLVM does now have !range which can specify range of values, somewhat like Pascal types can indicate ranges, although in this case it is done by values instead. < 1341011688 218469 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bfjoust a http://sprunge.us/hKeD < 1341011691 217515 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​Score for quintopia_a: 55.6 < 1341011742 674274 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bfjoust a http://sprunge.us/gWfG < 1341011745 933967 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​Score for quintopia_a: 55.3 < 1341011771 942558 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bfjoust a http://sprunge.us/EiIc < 1341011774 741886 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​Score for quintopia_a: 57.0 < 1341011909 509347 :MDoze!~fyrc@c-174-55-44-190.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1341012071 539499 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1341012185 505179 :MDude!~fyrc@c-174-55-44-190.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1341012367 456197 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1341012445 454580 :MDoze!~fyrc@c-174-55-44-190.hsd1.pa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1341012606 710889 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Good night