< 1341187204 736858 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The function actually has a hook that alerts them whenever it's used. < 1341187227 100290 :Patashu[Zzz]!~Patashu@c27-253-127-153.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au NICK :Patashu < 1341187331 591410 :lament!~user_name@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net PART :#esoteric < 1341187479 169372 :augur_!~augur@206.196.184.127 JOIN :#esoteric < 1341187485 249893 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1341187521 138028 :augur!~augur@206.196.184.127 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1341187522 938062 :derdon!~derdon@p5DE89252.dip.t-dialin.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1341187533 957347 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1341187549 689900 :derdon!~derdon@p5de89252.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1341187801 792069 :derdon!~derdon@p5de89252.dip.t-dialin.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1341188164 907330 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1341188279 860900 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1341189229 141997 :augur_!~augur@206.196.184.127 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1341189256 850697 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1341189405 966879 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1341189488 307361 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ais523 < 1341189649 973308 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1341189942 684368 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :ttiolle ih < 1341190322 870423 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1341192502 588512 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ais523 < 1341193137 841952 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi elliott < 1341193140 730313 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :network issues < 1341193158 822189 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, this year's junethack was fun; Berry played a game that scored more points than in all previous NetHack games ever added together < 1341193175 609519 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1341193179 730502 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :how did they pull that off? < 1341193193 415181 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they found a 64-bit server :) < 1341193206 543917 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it actually took both him and me quite a bit of effort to work out how to max it on a 64-bit server < 1341193216 496671 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are quite a few plain "int"s that get in the way < 1341193252 867004 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially in encumberance < 1341193271 284611 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :he was billions of times over his encumberance limit on the turn he ascended < 1341193277 432764 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1341193280 449238 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but apparently that doesn't affect #offer < 1341193300 96564 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: there's a new roguelike that's popular in ##crawl you might like < 1341193301 639739 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(he actually needed two tries to do the last bit; the first time, he dropped the amulet for spellcasting and couldn't pick it up…) < 1341193304 918141 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's it called? < 1341193336 106811 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Sil; http://www.amirrorclear.net/flowers/game/sil/ -- it has neat things like giving EXP just for encountering monsters, identifying items, and reaching new depths, so you can do fun stuff like pacifist diving < 1341193349 526352 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it's technically a *band derivative, but rewrites almost all of the mechanics, and thoroughly discourages grinding < 1341193360 410567 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(there's diminishing exp returns for killing creatures of the same type, for instance) < 1341193386 153368 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's supposed to focus on tactical combat and so on... elliptic is very good at it; I haven't had a chance to play it properly yet but mean to sometime < 1341193403 980864 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, interesting < 1341193413 118441 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ofc, angband's engine doesn't necessarily lead to angbandy games < 1341193514 81578 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :a few tips if you do play it: the standard build works fine; pass -mgcu to use the curses interface, although you can also just build a curses-only build if you edit the makefile and choose that configuration; and the interactive tutorial is very good < 1341193534 298181 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, and the %s are walls. < 1341193607 512534 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: oh yes, and if you're in a menu, ignore wherever it places the cursor < 1341193615 693660 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it may seem to correspond to where in the menu you are, but it is lies < 1341193634 187701 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: oh, and you can turn on vikeys control in the menu < 1341193814 386032 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: whywhywhywhywhy < 1341193819 329295 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :am i giving a talk on agda < 1341193845 703557 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :idk < 1341193887 992364 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's a good example of something interesting I can prove with it < 1341193895 831931 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :in like 20 minutes < 1341193899 931395 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :to a group that doesn't have a clue < 1341193914 225911 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the group < 1341193938 25790 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: one I've seen is proving that the reverse of the reverse of a list equals the list itself < 1341193953 331505 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(CSy lists, which have a head and a tail, and the standard recursive definition of reverse) < 1341193975 337754 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: undergraduate mathematics students < 1341193984 257591 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: looking for something more mathematically interesting < 1341193995 283563 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't need to explain every step < 1341194005 252827 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :humm < 1341194005 639250 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it needs to be such that it doesn't explode minds < 1341194036 54589 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :think highschool < 1341194055 190169 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the exact audience is the canadian undergraduate mathematics conference; I have a 45-minute talk and I plan to spend the first half or so explaining curry-howard and giving the very basics in agda < 1341194141 278019 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well whats the most trivial proofs? < 1341194199 281188 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want something 'cool' < 1341194208 327086 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ideally < 1341194211 222515 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i assume that an equation such as 1+1=2 or c = sqrt(a^2 + b^2) alone is not sufficient to need proof < 1341194217 714207 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1341194235 806578 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, uniqueness of the reals is cool and deep, but it's probably too complex for my talk < 1341194316 801348 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(since it requires construction of the reals and field isomorphisms) < 1341194324 725908 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :/might/ be able to do construction of the reals if I hurry < 1341194333 74082 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly a proof from group theory < 1341194379 783082 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :agda has a surprising number of meanings < 1341194398 71160 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1341194401 919006 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :any ideaS? < 1341194403 803028 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :*ideas < 1341194415 955425 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: also you have ruined my life < 1341194421 293724 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to write a haskell package < 1341194425 530862 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :good < 1341194434 169252 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you learn haskell because of me ror something < 1341194524 247908 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: no but you made me know about conduit < 1341194529 672957 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :and now I'm going to write a utility library for it < 1341194542 779768 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 bad conduit sux < 1341194559 232564 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1341194594 791938 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :all haskell libraries suck < 1341195404 594474 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1341195446 797630 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think its just that all haskell libraries that deal with anything called an iteratee, pipe or conduit tends to suck ;) < 1341195483 520408 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1341195500 588569 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like conduit < 1341195507 669359 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :cps is the best :P < 1341195563 143121 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :edwardk: Extrapolating, by 2013 over 50% of Haskell libraries are going to be called one of those things. < 1341195569 603414 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: hah < 1341195581 631412 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: i'll keep up the good fight against the tide < 1341195607 20937 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :thedwardk < 1341195644 806970 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i agree with the author of pipes on conduit but i don't like pipes either < 1341195652 929996 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :if only cmccann hasn't mysteriously vanished I could use his library < 1341195655 151451 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*hadn't < 1341195717 731259 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What happened to cmccann? < 1341195724 878579 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc15-sgyl29-2-0-cust133.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1341195788 549839 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :he disappeared < 1341195789 810563 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :mysteriously < 1341195796 119877 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least i haven't seen him anywhere for months < 1341195827 539850 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc15-sgyl29-2-0-cust133.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh mystery < 1341195833 879801 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc15-sgyl29-2-0-cust133.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :wasn't cmccann female < 1341195877 800115 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the plot thickens! < 1341196015 281087 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I don't believe so??? < 1341196022 378532 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc15-sgyl29-2-0-cust133.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :camccann? < 1341196036 258482 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc15-sgyl29-2-0-cust133.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure camccann is female < 1341196073 658912 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well he has referred to himself with male pronouns on IRC so... < 1341196084 544148 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc15-sgyl29-2-0-cust133.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :O.o < 1341196089 893368 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think he was female. < 1341196095 308970 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe he was, though. Who knows. < 1341196106 606431 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like how we are using the past tense here. < 1341196118 456452 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc15-sgyl29-2-0-cust133.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I distinctly recall there being some Haskeller on SO who you referred to with female pronouns but oh well. < 1341196120 155595 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: well you did say cAmccann.. and shachaf said cmaccann < 1341196129 32465 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps different people? < 1341196137 899108 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The plot thickens. < 1341196141 401258 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops now i started making typos < 1341196161 677612 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@google "whoever invented the mysterious force" < 1341196162 965711 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://qdb.rawrnix.com/?browse&3 < 1341196163 116930 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Title: Browse Quotes < 1341196173 569036 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc15-sgyl29-2-0-cust133.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I note that his website has a single enigmatic message on it. < 1341196177 887796 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :edwardk: as far as I can tell, you produce interesting libraries < 1341196183 860227 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :conduit and co are useful ones :P < 1341196190 320298 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :and never the twain shall meet < 1341196191 871928 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :edwardk's libraries ar eperfectly useful < 1341196196 413481 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as for camccann on twitter she just "I just unlocked the �4sqDay 2012� badge on @foursquare! Cupcakes and crowns for all! http://4sq.com/HRIX9p" < 1341196200 33888 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use them regularly < 1341196447 757162 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :camccann has a stack overflow rep of over 35,900 < 1341196580 828895 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc15-sgyl29-2-0-cust133.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like a bloodhound catching a scent, itidus21 is on the case! < 1341196591 499322 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1341196601 208803 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't care it's not my business < 1341196685 933860 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Your first reaction to a dilemma *isn't* stalking? < 1341196713 616173 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc15-sgyl29-2-0-cust133.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course it is, laziness permitting. < 1341197087 127419 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1341198088 374491 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc15-sgyl29-2-0-cust133.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com NICK :Guest39099 < 1341199436 873238 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1341199715 289296 :NihilistDandy!~ND@65-183-140-119-dhcp.burlingtontelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1341200316 765224 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk JOIN :#esoteric < 1341200678 888610 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :re: cmccann cmccann is definitely male. i've met him and offered him a job before. =P < 1341200729 738582 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1341200754 653015 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's also in michigan, while that christina person is in pennsylvania ;) < 1341200879 701462 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know that I have recorded a Dungeons&Dragons game I was playing in (and it is still in progress)? < 1341200910 643485 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you ever use TeX? < 1341201142 756897 :Maharba!3200420a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.50.0.66.10 JOIN :#esoteric < 1341201977 790371 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domain-specific_entertainment_language < 1341202480 413312 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :edwardk: pertinent questions from zzo38 I think < 1341202937 96075 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Other question includes: < 1341202937 592057 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1341204460 736868 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you think it should be return and join methods of Monad and then have Functor as superclass and (>>=) is not a method? I have read why you wanted (>>=) a method so I instead proposal (in Ibtlfmm, perhaps) to have (=<<) as a method because that way works better with other categories. < 1341205510 880024 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1341205535 873915 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1341205629 728328 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :Personally I prefer the use of (>>=) in code to the use of a separate join and fmap. The latter two are almost always used in conjunction, and are harder to optimize when written separately, while the (>>=) is rarely much more expensive than join < 1341205679 530894 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then you have: type MonadCR (c :: k -> k -> *) (m :: k -> k) :: & = (CategoryR r c, EndofunctorCR c m, MonadLawsCR c m, method return :: r x => c x (m x), method join :: r x => c (m (m x)) (m x), method (=<<) :: (r x, r y) => c x (m y) -> c (m x) (m y)); together with default definitions. < 1341205772 865339 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :edwardk: I understand, and I also agree that often you do want to use join and fmap together and >>= is convenient shortcut I use that a lot. However I still think join should be a method so that you can define it in that way, and also I explained why there should use =<< as some method rather than >>= what do you think of this? (You would still have >>= but it is not a class method) < 1341205784 446308 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :You do realize by naming a language after map succ "haskell", you open yourself to jokes about making haskell succ, right? =) < 1341205824 306534 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :edwardk: Now I do, and I have no problems with that. < 1341205867 607994 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :the price of defining join with (>>=) is the evaluation of an identity function at each binding site. it has really near zero operational cost < 1341205911 540167 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wouldn't mind defining them interrelatedly, but i don't really mind its absence < 1341205932 924362 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree; it could even be done and simplified at compile time if wanted somehow; but still you might want to define in terms of join. < 1341205979 430769 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :aywys about the succ thing it only game up because i'm working on slides for a talk on how to use generalized de bruijn indices to make de bruijn succ less ;) < 1341206050 878060 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You should be able to define map/return/join or return/(=<<) and then the others (including (>>=)) defined from that. < 1341206080 11387 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. i do this in comonad < 1341206094 65000 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes I know that. < 1341206103 884741 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i don't bother defining the duals of (>>=) and (=<<) interrelatedly < 1341206124 580705 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :making all 3 interconnected leads to a lot of excessive flipping < 1341206163 481895 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :afk getting food < 1341206216 108040 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Haskell you cannot always define these things interrelatedly but perhaps Ibtlfmm may allow it by specifying mahematical laws. And do you understand the reason why I wanted to define (=<<) instead of (>>=) for use with other categories? It is like a functor from the Kleisli category (but represented by the base category) to the base category. < 1341207663 564133 :Maharba!3200420a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.50.0.66.10 QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1341208484 908343 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, i use the same justification for why extend is the way it is < 1341208528 292694 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1341209041 141295 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think #haskell are migrating here one by one. < 1341209078 206809 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would probably result in a decrease of the net understanding of Haskell of the channel. < 1341209089 465048 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Well, those that are discussing things other than ordinary programming, anyways. < 1341209134 517831 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some people can go on both channels, at least sometimes. Or even on other channels as well. < 1341209169 226045 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Other channels exist? < 1341209222 577534 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :edwardk: Did you ever get that revisions stuff working? < 1341209237 275773 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, modulo replay < 1341209261 165940 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neat. What's wrong with replay? (What's replay?) < 1341209270 724716 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :i plan to ship a new version using the 'lca' package to deal with the online lca < 1341209277 783009 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then i'll upload it to hackage < 1341209281 965214 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1341209302 232675 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :the actual version control operations are to define version controlled variables with a 3 way merge strategy, read/write from them, and fork, and join < 1341209319 119567 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :but breaking the version control metaphor lets you add record :: Rev s a -> Rev s (a, Rev s a) < 1341209340 265768 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :that gives you incremental as well as parallel computation and is the key to the ridiculous speedups you can get with this technique < 1341209349 170026 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is the part that i haven't bothered to get working < 1341209386 755417 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That sounds like it would be useful for all kinds of things that I will never realise it would be useful for when coding them. < 1341209404 395939 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :i haven't been using the general purpose library for this that i have lately but instead have been using a special case set of combinators for dealing with unification problems < 1341209420 98959 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :in particular i wanted to use it for type error slicing < 1341209431 903525 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that requires a few awkward extensions to the way the merge strategy works < 1341209437 927865 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you read daan's paper? < 1341209466 597534 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://research.microsoft.com/apps/pubs/default.aspx?id=150180 < 1341209471 473570 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :really sells the performance win < 1341209481 387535 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't; I'll do so tomorrow. < 1341209489 894500 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has been coding more C++ than Haskell recently :(
< 1341209502 697496 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, this ports cleanly to c++ as well ;) < 1341209511 155044 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is your opinions of automatic type classes (meaning the instances are defined automatically by a macro defined at the same time as the class, and you cannot create your own instances)? < 1341209518 629732 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I'll read that paper tomorrow" is one of the worst repeated lies I've told. :-( < 1341209524 281758 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: =) < 1341209532 89770 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :edwardk: I don't attempt anything even vaguely elaborate in C++. < 1341209532 395679 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has a big pile of papers to read "tomorrow".
< 1341209544 246172 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Hey, I specifically mentally noted to check the log for the link! < 1341209547 621442 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: What are you doing in C++? < 1341209547 772636 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That counts for something. < 1341209574 69770 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: my opinion is that i'd rather just use ghc.generics and defaultsignatures and be able to override where its beneficial < 1341209605 838254 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: load the file and look at figure 11 < 1341209609 457308 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Patching a tattered codebase from 2005 that thinks it's C for the most part. < 1341209611 573848 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: that should motivate it ;) < 1341209617 283554 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Which codebase? < 1341209619 291833 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Crawl? < 1341209624 726580 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :'parallel repeat' performance in particular < 1341209627 965946 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Yes. < 1341209630 166440 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :edwardk: It doesn't do the things I was intending though; also, this way I propose allows Typeable to be defined in this way, and so on, too. < 1341209632 928532 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Crawl. :-( < 1341209664 698505 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, I think I have skimmed this paper on edwardk's behest before. < 1341209670 292466 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: sounds like my personal hell < 1341209678 701766 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a good figure. < 1341209682 270600 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: thought i'd sent you there < 1341209693 887982 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :those numbers are on 8 cores < 1341209701 847736 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Haskell it would be: auto_instance :: ([Type] -> Q [Dec]) -> Q [Dec] and then you can use this as a TH quotation inside of a class definition < 1341209727 612179 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: (Also it isn't actually Crawl, it's an abandoned, unbalanced pre-alpha version of Crawl before it got cleaned up.) < 1341209737 977825 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :edwardk: I don't even have that many cores :( < 1341209740 517697 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why are you patching that version? < 1341209751 515164 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Did your computer come back to life? < 1341209783 532667 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: monqy and no. (But that one doesn't have eight cores, either.) < 1341209808 741593 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Even if it defines instances for everything, you still need to indicate the constraint if you are using something polymorphic, to use the methods of this automatic class.) < 1341209826 300357 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: You gotta, like, finish playing Portal, man. :-( < 1341209863 306264 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(For example, you still need the Typeable constraint to be able to use typeOf and so on even though all types would have instances for Typeable.) < 1341209909 81873 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I'll finish playing Portal by... 2015 at the latest. < 1341209910 968910 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hold me to that. < 1341209926 472026 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Didn't we say something like a month? < 1341209935 648686 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'll be 2015 sooner than later < 1341209953 828607 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I didn't agree to any such constraints! < 1341209958 911537 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :edwardk: What do you think of McBride's Frank? < 1341209969 90518 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: :-( < 1341209982 280543 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i've largely given up on effect systems ;) < 1341210041 521125 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you empower the language to automatically plumb effects around for you like that then all of a sudden a large number of previously equivalent programs are no longer equivalent. you are giving up information about internal workings, this means a lot of canonical combinators cease to be canonical < 1341210047 725726 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I quite like them. What don't you like about them? The objection I'm familiar with is the standard "you can distinguish 'equivalent' actions in interpreters", but I don't really see that as a huge problem. < 1341210057 832528 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, so it is the same. < 1341210071 775556 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :so while map and mapM don't need to be defined separately, you often wind up having to define multiple directional traversals to push the effects around < 1341210081 416205 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, I see what you mean. < 1341210084 816367 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1341210090 655770 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you close the door to lots of optimizations < 1341210099 443389 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it is strictly worse than what you have to do to define control structures in a strict language with explicit thunking? < 1341210106 578310 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :when i code in a monadic style i'm at least explicit about what effects need to be serialized with regards to one another < 1341210118 811763 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i don't introduce completely artificial sequencing barriers < 1341210143 524887 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :working in a strict language with explicit thunking is just flipping terrible < 1341210171 450774 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :edwardk: I don't like explicit thunking. But I do quite like being explicit about effectful computation vs. result. So... I'm inconsistent. < 1341210194 6611 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, my main data points are scala and haskell here < 1341210200 218342 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskell is a dream to work with, scala is a nightmare < 1341210210 173222 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :a part of why scala is a nightmare is because of the strict defaults < 1341210217 72994 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :which make scala monads a damn joke < 1341210277 705365 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, Scala is a nightmare in general. I was of the "total language and decide what evaluation order is later since it doesn't affect semantics" school before it came in vogue, but then Conor went and ruined it by getting it to the top of /r/haskell. :/ < 1341210286 546448 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :in scala if i program with a monad i'm choosing to either a.) blow the stack on any non-trivial example because flatMap can't be a 'self-tail-call' and hence isn't subject to their limited form of tail call optimization or b.) run VERY slowly, because i've operationally transformed the monad using an explicit trampoline < 1341210289 978139 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(But then you end up with a notion of a thunk again if you introduce effects.) < 1341210314 206338 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :By "no worse than", I just meant that the number of combinators you have to write is no more than would be required in a strict langauge with explicit thunking. < 1341210315 404109 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :edwardk: What did you think about monad-embed? < 1341210319 79585 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because that's essentially the distinction you're getting. < 1341210319 446289 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a strict language with real tail call optimization, its a harder call, and you can get that in scheme. < 1341210349 95422 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: is that the scala abuse of delimited continuations to fake monads? < 1341210362 124436 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it's a language. < 1341210364 780383 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@where monad-embed < 1341210365 306852 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://timmaxwell.org/pages/monad-embed/ < 1341210381 292521 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :never saw it before < 1341210407 142351 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :it looks a lot like andrej bauer's toy < 1341210418 275808 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :same objections to it as i have to eff/frank < 1341210440 954945 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :given the choice i'd probably go with mcbride's version since its the most principled of the 3 < 1341210480 233567 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :ddc is fine if the only effects you want to play with are boring crap involving scribbling to regions. if you need to talk about other effects its useless < 1341210492 414999 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :DDC is really complicated. < 1341210493 983281 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :eff was invented to solve a non-problem < 1341210495 517428 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The effect system stuff. < 1341210498 822202 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1341210503 953279 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't understand it. :( < 1341210506 357360 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like Eff though. < 1341210541 112966 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, andrej wrote it because he claimed you couldn't solve certain things in haskell with monads < 1341210562 651039 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i showed him 4 years ago that he was wrong, whereupon he promptly forgot that fact and went and wrote it anyways ;) < 1341210590 539060 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1341210607 280801 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :after he wrote up something recently i posted a rebuttal of sorts on my blog ;) < 1341210621 711786 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://comonad.com/reader/2011/searching-infinity/ < 1341210625 433282 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dislike monad transformers strongly enough that the downsides of effect systems seem minor in comparison, honestly. < 1341210631 870002 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I think I read that. < 1341210641 757276 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Since when do you dislike monad transformers? < 1341210652 570922 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is that you run into the same problems you get with monad coproducts < 1341210667 75267 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, i can define the coproduct of two monads, its just useless < 1341210688 251382 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can define the coproduct of two effect systems, but its just as useless < 1341210705 724777 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you see the traffic on reddit today about monad coproducts? < 1341210719 433711 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :i gave a long enumeration of things that can't be done with monad coproducts < 1341210721 259241 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think Frank's effect system should suffice for a large variety of uses of monad transformers, really, although of course they can't do everything. < 1341210735 698401 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :edwardk: Yes. But I try to ignore tailcalled. < 1341210736 956300 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :all of these problems hold when you try to sprinkle arbitrary effects into an effect system < 1341210744 675032 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1341210780 470692 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still think the reduced power may be less annoying than monad transformers. But of course I've never actually tried to write a proper program in Frank. < 1341210787 188419 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't < 1341210790 360885 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can't use them < 1341210793 535909 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean i've tried < 1341210799 204806 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't dislike transformers, but I also consider the transformers in a mathematical way < 1341210811 461930 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :the -only- effects you can compose are reader/writer/state < 1341210835 460484 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :all uses of non-determinism, local, pass, listen, callCC, etc. break this system < 1341210863 106290 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :RWST IO *is* approximately 90% of Haskell transformer stacks. But yes, it's hardly ideal. :/ < 1341210867 356589 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you invent something perfect instead? < 1341210876 306888 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :and notice half of those operations were in reader/writer ;) so you lost half the effects you had in there < 1341210876 947558 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1341210878 950562 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't exist < 1341210884 878697 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I do not mean only effect composition; I mean the monad transformers in general, and other transformers too. < 1341210891 443053 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you just didn't look hard enough! < 1341210917 467518 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :i place the burden of the existence proof on you =P < 1341210938 767784 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1341210940 26140 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've done my due diligence here, and besides smarter people than me agree it can't exist < 1341210956 968227 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I mean by that is a homomorphism of those kind of things to a new one made up from that, so in other words if M is a monad and T is a monad transformer then so is (T M) and then a forward transformer homomorphism from M to (T M) while backward transformer homomorphism in other direction. < 1341210973 330344 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :ghani and luth, ghani and uustalu, kelly's paper on layered finitary monads, etc. < 1341210978 415119 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :edwardk: I'm just going to stick to C++. < 1341210985 577273 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like deciding to be homeless because you can't have a mansion. < 1341210989 997376 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha < 1341211001 304776 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++ is certainly a home! < 1341211004 900663 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I program in many programming languages, including C and Haskell. < 1341211008 407964 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a maze of twisty little passages, all different. < 1341211031 596932 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Every time I think "this code could really use some more classes" a little bit of me dies. < 1341211063 245750 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, monad transformers are stronger than the coproduct of the base monad and the State, etc monad they are transforming it with, which is the key insight into why they are better than coproducts < 1341211125 161216 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I know you can't compose monads perfectly independently. < 1341211127 696589 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :To make a sum of two monads, does it have to be on a sum of two categories that those two monads are on? < 1341211132 909326 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But transformers are so arbitrary. :( < 1341211134 444008 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :And same with products too < 1341211141 404709 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll let shachaf complain about transformers instead, he is better at it. < 1341211153 790922 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: transformers each individually arise for very very different reasons < 1341211160 915267 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: and each one is fundamental in its own way < 1341211167 496381 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :How are transformers so arbitrary? < 1341211210 238039 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Good question! shachaf can answer it. < 1341211211 404562 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :ReaderT works because (->) can distribute out over anything, WriterT because every functor is strong, state works because you can sandwich a monad inside an adjunction < 1341211223 304395 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :cont works because (-> r) is self adjoint < 1341211241 377064 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :edwardk: OK < 1341211244 423411 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :there isn't a consistent way in which these things are the same < 1341211246 843523 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://static.quickmeme.com/media/social/qm.gif < 1341211255 48464 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Do you know how transformers so arbitrary? < 1341211255 582554 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :except for the fact that they transform a simpler monad into a more complex one < 1341211257 590429 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :thank itidus21 < 1341211262 456343 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Ask elliott. < 1341211263 970276 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that didn't go well < 1341211264 463356 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*s < 1341211268 620152 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Ask shachaf. < 1341211273 700964 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :edwardk: How do you mean? Isn't it a kind of monad laws, transformer laws, homomorphism, etc? < 1341211275 859509 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bastards < 1341211277 177338 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: elliott brought it up, not me. < 1341211279 15223 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you start working with coproducts you _immediately_ quotient out the ability to allow them to interact < 1341211295 533057 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :edwardk: Anyway, both you and McBride sound so convincing. < 1341211296 807129 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :edwardk: Yes I can see that < 1341211301 251889 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: no, they aren't just two monad homomorphisms in from their constituent parts < 1341211311 811228 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I'm going to go with McBride, because I'd prefer him to be right. < 1341211314 542555 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Take that! < 1341211337 933888 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :like i said, his is the best of a bad bunch ;) < 1341211346 96760 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :edwardk: Yes there is something more too see what I have written above, is that it? Is it somewhat difference? < 1341211357 560785 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://i.qkme.me/3on7zh.jpg < 1341211360 154531 :NihilistDandy!~ND@65-183-140-119-dhcp.burlingtontelecom.net QUIT :Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"] < 1341211378 129116 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: Did you just search "RWST IO meme" or something? < 1341211386 738420 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm upset that image exists. :( < 1341211403 178561 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That doesn't even kind-check. < 1341211410 33361 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i found the meme by accident! < 1341211452 352864 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes you are right it doesn't even kind-check. < 1341211456 689865 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: consider a monad coproduct defined by two monad homomorphisms, this isn't sufficient to give you what monad transformers give you, because it has to work symmetrically between the two monads. this means that there is quite literally no way for the coproduct of state and error to let you get the semantics of either of StateT s (Either e) or ErrorT e (State s), since the state effects backtrack or not depending on the layering y < 1341211456 841060 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric : choose < 1341211498 421808 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :edwardk: I didn't say a transformer is a coproduct though, or vice-versa < 1341211512 254835 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I do believe what you wrote < 1341211518 531647 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, edwardk is talking to zzo38. I am free. Goodbye! < 1341211524 524674 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: =P < 1341211528 310352 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1341211570 36049 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: you probably also want to cps that so you can use speculation ;) < 1341211608 765022 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have thought and figured out to make a monad on a category which is a sum of two categories from monads on each one, and the same things with products too < 1341211653 352491 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But this is dealing with different categories not the same one (although you can have the sum or product of a category with itself) < 1341211879 499739 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Therefore I do not understand why you are relating transformers with coproducts. < 1341212019 661803 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/vuty0/what_is_the_advantage_of_monad_transformers_over/ < 1341212099 21874 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk QUIT :Quit: Leaving... < 1341212377 215689 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1341213946 178441 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1341214191 590998 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like Famicom-MIDI? < 1341214192 592926 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca QUIT :Quit: zzo38 < 1341218151 508538 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1341218869 885851 :derdon!~derdon@p4FD95C17.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1341219502 724570 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, a spammer has apparently sent me $1.6 million via DHL because of my bad experiences with FedEx < 1341219507 102090 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and is asking for contact details < 1341219533 381179 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like to contact people through their credit card numbers. < 1341219551 556523 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(have you seen the theory that scammers deliberately make scams full of warning signs for people who know anything about them, to ensure that the only people who respond are idiots, who have a higher conversion rate than people who know about scams?) < 1341219593 275279 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :1. YOUR FULL NAME 2. YOUR HOME ADDRESS.OR OFFICE ADDRESS 3. YOUR CURRENT HOME TELEPHONE NUMBER .4. YOUR CURRENT OFFICE TELEPHONE .5. A COPY OF YOUR PICTURE, FOR WELL IDENTIFICATION. < 1341219597 59071 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what they wanted < 1341219607 489859 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, Konversation screwed up the spaces again < 1341219608 573716 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yep. That's a pleasing theory. < 1341219619 455261 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure whether to believe it or not < 1341219625 463977 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like it whether or not it's true. < 1341219636 878220 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also like the theory that half the scams you get are from scam /victims/ who've been scammed with "make money fast via internet scamming" schemes < 1341219655 489729 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thus are only designed to fool their perpetrators < 1341219701 893961 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :A pyramid scam. < 1341220461 966132 :Slereah_!~jackal@ANantes-259-1-195-133.w90-49.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1341220482 560877 :Slereah!~jackal@ANantes-259-1-195-133.w90-49.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1341220891 887583 :ais523_!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1341220902 734109 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Disconnected by services < 1341220903 930521 :ais523_!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 NICK :ais523 < 1341221054 464439 :Slereah!~jackal@ANantes-259-1-195-133.w90-49.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1341221118 969469 :Slereah!~jackal@ANantes-259-1-195-133.w90-49.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1341221329 984195 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1341221363 780918 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1341222827 966861 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1341222910 386854 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1341222910 727265 :atehwa!~atehwa@aulis.sange.fi QUIT :*.net *.split < 1341222910 892837 :ssue!u5338@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ufjpylbquouzvdgd QUIT :*.net *.split < 1341222910 892981 :comex!~comex@ec2-23-22-255-183.compute-1.amazonaws.com QUIT :*.net *.split < 1341223001 978734 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 JOIN :#esoteric < 1341223002 129957 :atehwa!~atehwa@aulis.sange.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1341223002 130113 :ssue!u5338@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ufjpylbquouzvdgd JOIN :#esoteric < 1341223002 130192 :comex!~comex@ec2-23-22-255-183.compute-1.amazonaws.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1341223635 962479 :Guest39099!~phantomho@cpc15-sgyl29-2-0-cust133.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1341223805 855667 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1341225715 226121 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1341225729 255841 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no TOPIC #esoteric :Individuals guilty of ruining this channel: coppro, edwardk, itidus21 (ex officio), dbelange, oerjan | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ < 1341226782 671283 :ais523_!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1341226783 934996 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Disconnected by services < 1341226785 389803 :ais523_!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 NICK :ais523 < 1341230333 267549 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1341230350 859927 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 JOIN :#esoteric < 1341230465 548218 :derdon!~derdon@p4FD95C17.dip.t-dialin.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1341231560 646511 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 17*17 < 1341231562 19205 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : 289 < 1341233362 280114 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1341234074 331019 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-150-100.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1341234079 905507 :pikhq_!~pikhq@70-56-230-160.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1341234306 577190 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1341234835 651036 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello from Belgland. (Is this what this place is called?) < 1341234846 242995 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :They have all the keys in completely wrong order, at least. < 1341235542 509707 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-5.opaltelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1341235545 745370 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-5.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello < 1341235587 923555 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :good morning! < 1341235611 752693 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-5.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@time boily < 1341235612 833373 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Local time for boily is Mon Jul 2 09:26:51 2012 < 1341235625 807574 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-5.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :GMT - 5? < 1341235632 94881 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-5.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :GMT - 4 < 1341235729 545459 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :@time fizzie < 1341235733 209990 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Local time for fizzie is Mon Jul 2 16:28:50 2012 < 1341235736 121601 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :lambdabot: U worng. < 1341236065 50324 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :-4 right now because of EST. < 1341236494 459840 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1341236515 250433 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1341236814 234597 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1341236852 25864 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1341237444 972315 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1341238753 912906 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1341238891 90746 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1341239122 813667 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 JOIN :#esoteric < 1341239383 845732 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1341240670 37201 :ais523_!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1341240860 233631 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1341240924 189439 :augur!~augur@129-2-129-32.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1341241665 911949 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-5.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily, east coast US? < 1341241933 475761 :ais523_!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 NICK :ais523 < 1341242101 747857 :ogrom!~del@gprs-inet-65-91.elisa.ee JOIN :#esoteric < 1341242963 110120 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: east coast canada. < 1341242971 249679 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-5.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1341244268 642718 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1341244553 566426 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :!sanetemp 180 < 1341244555 877253 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :82.2 < 1341245025 912144 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: time to leave work < 1341245116 770382 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :!insanetemp 1000 < 1341245117 424941 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :1832.0 < 1341245509 396157 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sanetemp is Fahrenheit -> Celsius, insanetemp is the other way. < 1341245714 777591 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1341245877 31917 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ohhhhhhhhh, I thought it was for temporary values of some kind. I was really confused. < 1341246110 739781 :Patashu!~Patashu@c27-253-127-153.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au NICK :Patashu[Zzz] < 1341246764 858734 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1341248525 172577 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8 < 1341248740 989331 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1341248821 876358 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1341249524 372915 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :It’s a brilliant idea to have locale settings affect how your code parses. https://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=18556 < 1341249601 264992 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1341249604 852228 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, PHP < 1341249819 571690 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh god < 1341249858 511098 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :“class_exists() function uses zend_str_tolower(). zend_str_tolower() uses zend_tolower(). zend_tolower() uses _tolower_l() on Windows and tolower() on other oses. _tolower_l() is not locale aware. tolower() is LC_CTYPE aware.” < 1341249950 671401 :Lumpio-!~matti@62-113-182-248.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why do people still keep using that V: < 1341249972 537557 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :In PHP, it used to be that 0x0+1 == 2. They fixed that, but now 0b0+1 == 2. YAY < 1341250001 457795 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :And 0b0+10 == 12 < 1341250027 242762 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-5.opaltelecom.net QUIT :Quit: dinner < 1341250055 466357 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: what. < 1341250064 801876 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :information overload: 11 items on my Windows(tm) taskbar, 23 tabs in my firefox browser, 4 channels in irc. noone to blame but myself < 1341250089 175920 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: PHP logic 8-D < 1341250103 833679 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: is this on lolphp? < 1341250116 286942 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know the 0x0 was. < 1341250138 123780 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.reddit.com/r/lolphp/comments/ps6x5/0x0_wat/ < 1341250161 385824 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :74 icons on my desktop < 1341250172 682543 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : In PHP, it used to be that 0x0+1 == 2. They fixed that, but now 0b0+1 == 2. YAY <--- how... did those happen? < 1341250178 742017 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :what did they interpret 0x0 as? < 1341250201 236769 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: See http://www.reddit.com/r/lolphp/comments/ps6x5/0x0_wat/ < 1341250252 5134 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1341250348 854869 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :why does it skip the leading zeros, it doesn't hurt to interpret those... < 1341250396 391498 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :also yeah strtol handles 0x already < 1341250465 786747 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk JOIN :#esoteric < 1341250639 869533 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1341250708 287876 :canaima!~canaima@200.11.216.225 JOIN :#esoteric < 1341250746 144446 :canaima!~canaima@200.11.216.225 QUIT :Client Quit < 1341250779 330058 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, 'optimisation'. < 1341250791 909449 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1341250812 286859 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, which of course makes no sense < 1341250838 586131 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No you see strtol probably handles those initial zeroes inefficiently. < 1341251052 841045 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, if you profiled and found that to be the case the right answer to that is writing your own strtol then < 1341251060 635070 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is not terribly complex to implement strtol < 1341251070 135724 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did it when I needed a different overflow behaviour < 1341251332 393905 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PART #esoteric :"Leaving" < 1341251416 889272 :Nisstyre!~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1341251500 695541 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, you do not need to explain to me why it's stupid. < 1341251969 487007 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"list all of your computer skills (software, < 1341251969 681967 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hardware, operating systems, programming and other skills here)" < 1341251985 254237 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :^^ career development center person < 1341251996 739594 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's..... uh.... what.... < 1341252024 952285 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's no way that that's literal, is there? < 1341252036 841842 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is anyone really interested in the fact that I know how to use XChat? < 1341252052 424839 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or Chrome? < 1341252059 998817 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay! I know how to use a web browser < 1341252073 272736 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :She took the liberty of adding Windows XP as a skill. < 1341252076 916893 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :sgeo: i hope they have a lot of paper < 1341252109 11997 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :my rule of thumb is if one of those forms is involved i probably am not interested in the kinds of positions they can supply ;) < 1341252154 933779 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, this isn't towards any particular position, just helping me write a resume < 1341252168 71144 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm sure my innate understanding of the inner workings of the 6502 will be critical to my future success. < 1341252191 514015 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :coming out of college? < 1341252206 499062 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, still in college, want to get an internship while in college < 1341252213 686428 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :fair nuff < 1341252257 134906 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate to ask, but are you still at Farmingdale? < 1341252268 535177 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1341252557 349989 :Nisstyre!~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre JOIN :#esoteric < 1341252955 811169 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Spam subject: "Gangbang tube full of desire" < 1341252956 897679 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :D-8 < 1341253299 467645 :augur!~augur@129-2-129-32.wireless.umd.edu QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1341253447 171587 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.resumagic.com/computer_skills1.html < 1341253448 417334 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What. < 1341253458 659784 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :A hardware section? < 1341253485 79694 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I.... have the vague idea that I'm typing on a Toshiba computer right now < 1341253490 53622 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not really a hardware person < 1341253934 965309 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :6502 is great for making computer games < 1341254060 788845 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, wikipedia says bender on futurama has a 6502 brain < 1341254152 358981 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION scuffles away back to his lab.
< 1341255158 337835 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1341255180 566758 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell oerjan If AlainD keeps doing it, let me know and I'll do something about it. < 1341255181 159810 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1341255238 532773 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooo < 1341255246 282992 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :maharba corrected the misspelling of "accumlator" in the python interpreter < 1341255247 219713 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :r.i.p. < 1341255430 567644 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1341255460 556400 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1341257597 834481 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the end of an era < 1341257859 332736 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my brain has too many gotos < 1341257942 264952 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :spaghettibrain < 1341257994 233255 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION opens itidus21's skull and takes a spoonful of spaghettibrain bolognese
< 1341258004 265722 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you... might not want to do that < 1341258014 89793 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :you might not want me to do that < 1341258035 646085 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you haven't seen my desktop < 1341258047 386731 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might not want to do that < 1341258092 15866 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think maybe the way i think is just a reflection of the chaotic nature of the world < 1341258151 678117 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :a reflection of the leftovers I left in there < 1341258187 405681 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what happened to the stuff I ate though < 1341258209 255528 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, i am producing content but i'm not organizing it < 1341258249 910346 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i don't want to burden anyone else with that either < 1341258291 127092 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :where i am really going wrong is i don't actually take the time to study what i am doing < 1341258308 589243 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :watch a chilean monkey (ape?) speak about getting organized: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zUbyL6yez4 < 1341258434 493910 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :his son speaks a bit later < 1341258465 964914 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i also realize that it's entirely natural that observing or studying something leads to other things to observe or study.. and there is no real end to that < 1341258524 652949 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1341258553 623132 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi oerjan < 1341258556 390285 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi elliott < 1341258557 24456 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. < 1341258561 907416 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@messages < 1341258562 421954 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott said 56m 22s ago: If AlainD keeps doing it, let me know and I'll do something about it. < 1341258615 995059 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : maharba corrected the misspelling of "accumlator" in the python interpreter <-- SACRILEGE < 1341258634 816739 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i haven't even dared to fix the java one < 1341258706 823425 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was misspelled by design and is now completely broken? < 1341258758 488700 :ogrom!~del@gprs-inet-65-91.elisa.ee QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1341258760 676953 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :...i assume maharba's fix didn't change the semantics, i haven't looked at it yet. < 1341258779 697585 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :organizing items into categories is a recursive process of generating new categories until there is no longer a miscellaneous category < 1341258821 600041 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you should stop when the miscellaneous category is small enough, because it will never be eliminated < 1341258857 612063 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a finite set of items (in scope) < 1341258870 466763 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but admittedly new items can arrive any time < 1341258882 680275 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :although finite, the set can be very large < 1341258983 104965 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's really ugly... no library ever has a miscellaneous section < 1341259005 937406 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe this is because the authors categorize their books in advance < 1341259057 633739 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone should troll the libraries by writing an uncategorizable book < 1341259062 587458 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: going to bed < 1341259160 63844 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk JOIN :#esoteric < 1341259161 374102 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is tensor category, and then perhaps you can make tensor diagram from that. But I suppose the lines are not allowed to cross unless it is commutative. < 1341259201 713327 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :was that a response to the idea about an uncategorizable book? < 1341259211 402285 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :No < 1341259220 338545 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not thinking of mathematical categories really, but just layman categories < 1341259223 473453 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did not even read what was written above < 1341259281 863471 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: I think they'll just add a new category for uncategorizable books and put your book in that category < 1341259344 598999 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://github.com/net-alper/php-src/commit/0515360e9a8dcc86facb38cddeebe759e87dca52 < 1341259351 972332 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh my god this is the best patch ever < 1341259393 55005 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it follows the spirit and style of the surrounding code perfectly < 1341259434 773565 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are any of the numbers for categorizing books not yet used? If so, then use those numbers. < 1341259478 433473 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: the system is kind of extensible really :D < 1341259517 666644 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :or they could just put the book in fiction since you made it all up to make it "uncategorizable" < 1341259578 837390 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway if you saw the kind of text files on my desktop you would understand why these things worry me < 1341259709 943846 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have some kind of illness involving text files? < 1341259893 161004 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :heres an example of a file on my desktop http://pastebin.com/uXe6Jbi1 < 1341259913 66829 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wouldn't recommend reading it, but a quick glance will get the point across < 1341259940 414669 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :glossolalia? < 1341260119 298634 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there's another word for written glossolalia, and doing it a non-religious context, though < 1341260188 462121 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one problem with that file is it requires context to make any sense < 1341260248 825565 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, ok, I don't have any context so it makes no sense < 1341260316 901529 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the first part is saying is that there is a 12x12 bitmap using the alphabet {-,0} with rows and columns addressed by a letter followed by a number < 1341260353 107547 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then it goes on to show the 4x4 bitmaps found at various addresses < 1341260402 537288 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :found at various addresses? so you're reverse-engineering something? < 1341260406 603136 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does any ephemeris data include camera angles? < 1341260417 458266 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well addressing as in a chessboard < 1341260483 757939 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it tries to do the same thing with another 12x12 bitmap, trying to use this system to represent tetris pieces via addresses < 1341260588 482579 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it goes on to a 4x4 bitmap, with 9 addresses from a1 to c3 and at each address determining the 2x2 sub bitmap < 1341260638 80700 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then tries to use these subbitmaps as tiles in a 3x3 grid < 1341260717 998992 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then some waffling about using xml to represent operations on bitmap, as well as a random list of urls so that i can close the browser tabs < 1341260735 88013 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would you close those tabs? < 1341260941 259832 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lack of interest, or trying to focus on something else < 1341260962 163053 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also to try to free resources < 1341260980 150453 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :How can I download an ephemeris with camera angles of camera satellites included? < 1341261191 507256 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :next is a few random thoughts about video games, followed by an analysis of something called WarioWare D.I.Y. which is a nintendo game about making games which last about 8 seconds < 1341261268 188671 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the last part i suppose is infact a reverse engineering < 1341261362 948130 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I read a bit in the beginning and a bit in the end, scrolling past the rest of it very quickly < 1341261383 66225 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I found some bitmaps, some youtube links, and what looked like it could be some reverse engineering notes < 1341261391 253719 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol lol < 1341261398 39810 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so infact they are all unrelated < 1341261417 220901 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yet they are in the same text file < 1341261424 17517 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yup < 1341261436 454585 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it's called New new New text file.txt or something like that? < 1341261443 119752 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :123.txt < 1341261456 560586 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i tried to see if the "scratch" file on my desktop was similar, but it seems to contain only the design for my deadfish in itflabtijtslwi < 1341261464 200259 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you have 122 previous text files that became full? < 1341261484 145617 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :each one is a vain attempt at something substantial.. < 1341261520 762825 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :theres 1234.txt stuff.txt stuff2.txt gaming.txt Document.rtf < 1341261535 886236 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :another hopeful document.rtf < 1341261549 300100 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool thoughts.rtf < 1341261589 522181 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :New OpenDocument Text (2).odt, New OpenDocument Text.odt, Games.odt < 1341261613 398278 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc < 1341261616 909794 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I found /code/scratch/BaconCongdon758.txt < 1341261625 279884 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has tips on finding a good dentist, I think < 1341261673 761412 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :and here's a copy of an e-mail with 11469 > characters from excessive quoting of the entire previous thread < 1341261716 314436 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :(out of 837 lines ... but some of those came from line-wrapping the series of initial >s) < 1341261735 114635 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i even made a folder called Desk and copied my desktop into it mostly.. but that didn't stop it happening again < 1341261769 870364 :ion!ion@heh.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1341262448 557641 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1341262458 499323 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1341262619 427771 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION checks spelling and realizes alaind is probably not alan dipert
< 1341262650 42427 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :alain diperrier < 1341262657 581489 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :otoh, if his actual name is alain dipert that might explain why alan dipert is sometimes so hard to find < 1341262669 705159 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: ooh < 1341262690 749675 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: wait, are you revealing secret wiki database stuff again < 1341262699 454847 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :double up if it's actually alain diperrier < 1341262711 505477 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: no. < 1341262717 6852 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1341262722 504243 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i am irresponsible, not negligent. < 1341262745 227897 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: however, note that, IIRC, realnames are public in mediawiki. < 1341262745 796603 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i... may not be entirely sure of the difference. < 1341262758 791413 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :one sounds worse than the other < 1341262760 596458 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh they are? < 1341262764 911127 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i believe so < 1341262768 398148 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :which one sounds worse? < 1341262769 268088 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: which one? < 1341262772 842421 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :negligent < 1341262781 899999 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's so negligible < 1341262783 849622 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least to me. < 1341262786 183383 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think irresponsible sounds worse, it sounds more intentional < 1341262804 312186 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :negligent sounds like forgetful < 1341262851 294871 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, shut up. < 1341262863 221598 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: i don't know how to find realnames... < 1341262866 612075 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott is about to become one of those english people who go out in the world and discover that their words mean completely different things out there < 1341262910 980574 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: me too < 1341262926 989527 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :neither? < 1341262980 834563 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Real name is optional. If you choose to provide it, this will be used for giving you attribution for your work." < 1341263027 166000 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :so presumably there's some way to make attributions... < 1341263345 576723 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 JOIN :#esoteric < 1341263374 461042 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's decrementing! < 1341263444 997681 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1341263451 889060 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the itidus < 1341263487 503760 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there any relation between tensor categories and Penrose tensor diagrams? < 1341263587 624451 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1341263606 327220 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION ++
< 1341263612 371046 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 NICK :itidus21 < 1341266347 618992 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! < 1341266366 508604 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :wikipedia's down! < 1341266385 993118 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that's what i'd say if i was boiling too < 1341266449 820844 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I always forget the fact that my family name sounds like boiling in English... < 1341266495 291962 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd probably be aaaaaahing too if I were boiled alive. < 1341266511 396042 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :just change your nick to bwalee and we'll stop being confused < 1341266527 692425 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net NICK :bwalee-not-confu < 1341266554 442863 :bwalee-not-confu!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net NICK :unconfused-bwale < 1341266565 483329 :unconfused-bwale!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net NICK :unconf`d-bwalee < 1341266568 90200 :unconf`d-bwalee!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :there. < 1341266580 404129 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :EXCELLENT < 1341266677 198530 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's "oi" as in "au revoir" < 1341266678 701298 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the perfect nick < 1341266807 836582 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh ruvwar < 1341267144 837642 :ion!ion@heh.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1341267148 453470 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1341267220 249358 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1341267329 259526 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1341268092 254245 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh wow. < 1341268131 200806 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently OpenOffice used to (as in 2011-and-possibly-still) delete all backup files when it crashed. < 1341268203 523510 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1341268341 948252 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :how convenient < 1341268377 332144 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also found this gem: "In my experience, quality goes something like: < 1341268377 522331 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(worst) commercial <<<< open source < (most) commercial << open source (best)" < 1341268382 946182 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh < 1341268383 706898 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1341268384 587011 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :dammit < 1341268394 180357 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought that last one said commercial (best). < 1341268406 484960 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I agree < 1341268412 798353 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :MAYBE I SHOULD READ THINGS FIRST < 1341268415 203281 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The best OSS stuff beats the commercial stuf < 1341268422 419171 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :but only the best < 1341268426 119209 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OOo is far from the best < 1341268429 108388 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or LO or whatever) < 1341268458 467313 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I just thought they were lumping all open-source stuff together whilst fractionating commercial software by quality. < 1341268477 518388 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, actually I do think "proprietary < open-source < proprietary < open-source" does describe how good the software is. I have not thought of that before but it does look correct to me. < 1341268534 779641 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What document numbering system should I use, such as "I.2.iii" or "1.2.3" or etc? < 1341268591 649815 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Roman numerals, then Arabic, then lowercase Roman, then Greek, then Hebrew (ask shachaf). < 1341268673 854879 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only need three levels. < 1341268689 119259 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Roman, Greek, Hebrew. < 1341268702 45433 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it needs to work with TeX. < 1341268702 476383 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :For that authentic old-world feel. < 1341268712 286749 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1341268723 859915 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does TeX not have the capacity to display the Greek alphabet. < 1341268734 781244 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because I thought that was quite a big deal. < 1341268749 889295 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: not after the euro scandal < 1341268780 638240 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Hmm? < 1341268785 593038 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It can display math Greek alphabet. < 1341268797 151114 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it doesn't have the ordering built-in < 1341268813 743440 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :With the proper fonts you can display anything but I don't want to have to add fonts < 1341268839 791341 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf, didn't you say it's one of those sum-numeric-values-of-letters systems except you're not allowed to spell out any of the names of God. < 1341268845 32277 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :are fonts monochrome? < 1341268872 600993 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: Yes, but even if it isn't, the printer may be monochrome anyways < 1341268882 737129 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one chrome to rule them all < 1341268912 771781 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am starting to make the document for ITMCK. < 1341269023 845179 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the printer _should_ do subpixel dithering, in a perfect world >:-) < 1341269888 934641 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The fonts are stored as METAFONT programs which will output a metric file, and then when you tell it what printer you use can output the font raster for that printer as well. < 1341269958 267142 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :How does a printer going to do subpixel dithering? < 1341269968 620741 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically i think it would be fun to make a font based on NES tilesets < 1341270025 346129 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then again, i am rambling nonsense < 1341270046 346452 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Printers have subpixels? < 1341270082 997041 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did once write a program to make a METAFONT file from 8x8 monochrome character bitmaps; it could then be included from a METAFONT program that uses that data to apply effects and ship out. < 1341270665 370054 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ion: well, i don't know the correct terms to explain what i have in mind < 1341270734 37064 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if i have a 4 color image, and if it is to be printed in black and white, it needs to be dithered at some stage < 1341270738 70198 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :just use nanobots to print < 1341270742 492694 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess its silly to demand the printer to do that < 1341270759 132819 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe the font should be dithered! < 1341270800 407283 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ya.. now i'm getting somewhere < 1341270801 473219 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-218-141.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1341270810 635079 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it would be possible to program METAFONT to perform dithering although it cannot be subpixels < 1341270820 709381 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :dithered fonts < 1341270834 64757 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-218-141.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@messages? < 1341270834 300871 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: You have 7 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. < 1341270874 464930 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@ask monqy hi monqy, we missed you < 1341270874 977101 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: Isn’t that kind of dithering typical? < 1341270875 128103 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1341270881 681726 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: MONQY DETECTED < 1341270883 863593 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you name a dithered font? < 1341270904 783687 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dunno when it happens. maybe it's part of the vector rendering < 1341270956 918739 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well there is ░▒▓ < 1341270974 228651 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hither and dither < 1341270985 989480 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: hi < 1341270988 299290 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric : ░▒▓█ < 1341270990 194435 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those belong to CP437 (and to Unicode) < 1341270998 651407 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy Are you going to the conference in San Diego? < 1341271003 593555 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :They are often used in ZZT and MegaZeux games < 1341271167 651754 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1341271294 449414 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: but suppose you are using graphics mode, and font resolution isn't a scarce resource... 1920 / 256 = 7.5; 1080 / 224 = 4.8; so you can get away with 7.5x4.8 black and white pixels per NES pixel (allowing for stretching) < 1341271349 845947 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could convert the file into the format that METAFONT (or TeX) can read and then write the program to make it to print out. < 1341271356 705515 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but my eyes tend to percieve movement with some effects like that. really awkward < 1341271364 421497 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have written a program in TeX to print ASCII PBM pictures on a document. < 1341271438 968439 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is the postal address to send a note if you lost a copy of GNU GPL? < 1341271778 418861 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Good night