< 1342140188 208528 :nooga!~nooga@ip-46-250-173-30.ip.maverick.com.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1342140630 864803 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: I joined #python earlier and they were making fun of how stupid those static languages and people who use them are. < 1342140678 590058 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf, do they ever think about what the most common implementation of Python is written in? < 1342140701 269654 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: that's a silly argument < 1342140705 736000 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: "I hate making hardware." < 1342140708 641276 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: like bizarro world #haskell, eh? < 1342140715 50250 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Are you aware what your software runs on?" < 1342140722 230006 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, true, but so is the idea that static languages are stupid < 1342140738 601044 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: ahahaha < 1342140740 260866 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf, hardware is awesome though not easy. < 1342140743 294797 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: It's a silly idea but that counterargument isn't very valid. < 1342140793 212619 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hardware afaik is mostly long to design :D < 1342140816 424957 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :optimised assembler is like 10 times slower to write than C++ for instance < 1342140833 395185 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :though it's partly processor dependent < 1342140952 2622 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway some good reasons to use statically typed languages: Better error checking at an early stage (compile time errors are much better than runtime errors) < 1342140952 389443 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Did I just troll-by-proxy? < 1342140952 587837 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :another good reason is that it provides the optimiser with much more information < 1342140952 588031 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: You don't need to tell me about advantages of statically-typed languages. < 1342140953 318511 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think a statically typed language with some support for dynamic typing if you really want to (and where the dynamic typing would be easy to spot for someone reading the code) would be the optimal way to go. Something like a (static!) type Dynamic that can be contain any type or such. Wasn't there something for haskell kind of doing that? < 1342140989 653459 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would probably be nice yes < 1342141005 653768 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr, I have written some VHDL. And that isn't even on the level of designing transistors and so on. Presumably doing ASIC development is even harder than just working against an FPGA < 1342141027 47548 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also with std::string, vector and map as basic types instead of half grafted on things < 1342141054 998647 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1342141059 341131 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fewer baked in things is better < 1342141073 648127 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: that Dynamic type is part of the GHC Haskell standard library, yes < 1342141082 143165 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but the base weakness of C/C++ is the lack of built in types < 1342141084 262701 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh < 1342141089 327059 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :C/C++ < 1342141089 984377 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahaha that makes no sense < 1342141092 325504 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, really haven't worked that much with haskell, only the basics < 1342141092 929216 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1342141102 568315 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but the base weakness of C/C++ is the lack of variable size structures < 1342141117 664691 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: oh, well, wishing for a static language with a feature Haskell already has is a common enough occurrence < 1342141125 613436 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything is fine as long as none of your strings or arrays ever change size < 1342141129 616898 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure a string should be a fundamental type. Sure there are some good arguments for it. It definitely shouldn't be handled as an array of chars. But I think a linked list of chars (in a language having the linked list as a fundamental type, like Erlang or Scheme) is a good representation. < 1342141146 479581 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does "fundamental" mean? < 1342141152 205477 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: that has terrible performance though < 1342141159 854894 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :vorpal: that's kinda impossible to parallelize < 1342141161 913995 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :A language should let you make your own abstractions. < 1342141168 972926 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think you need some general purpose type for things contiguous in memory < 1342141173 605285 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can apply that to characters < 1342141175 450933 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's probably the most important thing in a high-level language. < 1342141176 453130 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :abstractions? < 1342141180 31594 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf, I presume kmc meant "baked into the syntax of the language, and is more than just syntax sugar for something else" < 1342141181 612986 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't need abstractions < 1342141186 548692 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need arrays of floats < 1342141189 613052 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and shit like that < 1342141208 855154 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : i think you need some general purpose type for things contiguous in memory and you can apply that to characters <-- you can create a binary containing a string in erlang as well < 1342141260 417663 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :purely functional data type though (can sometimes be optimised to be mutable if the compiler can be sure it won't be visible elsewhere though), so there are some interesting things to be aware of. < 1342141285 275711 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mutable types are nice < 1342141301 580851 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : A language should let you make your own abstractions. <-- so something like lisp? < 1342141327 996051 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: are there popular implementations which do that? < 1342141328 194636 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: That's one kind of abstraction. < 1342141337 978380 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, hm? < 1342141349 298300 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :optimize data structures to be mutable locally < 1342141358 81216 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Languages with uniqueness typing, maybe? < 1342141362 590317 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is the aliasing caused by pointers < 1342141363 176510 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, popular implementations of erlang? < 1342141367 764418 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :of anything < 1342141370 748890 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever you were talking about < 1342141370 947754 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, there is just one Erlang implementation < 1342141380 562081 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it is the most popular Erlang implementation < 1342141382 12692 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1342141382 743782 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"is that a thing at all" < 1342141385 993549 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :is what i'm asking < 1342141399 141939 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a common misconception about GHC and Haskell < 1342141401 258293 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: It's a thing that they tell young Haskell programmers to get them to go to sleep. < 1342141406 129093 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1342141412 993963 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :to my knowledge GHC does not really do that < 1342141414 18174 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believed it for a while! < 1342141422 860735 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it does eliminate intermediate data structures entirely, sometime < 1342141423 99580 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, oh yeah, erlang can optimise certain appending style operations to mutate the data in certain cases < 1342141438 767992 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :afaik it is fairly restricted, but it is documented in the efficiency section of the manual < 1342141439 817472 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the nice thing about pure functional data structures isn't some weird compiler trick < 1342141460 396271 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's that they *fundamentally* support efficient non-destructive update < 1342141473 671386 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you implement a binary search tree in the most naive way in Haskell with a stupid naive Haskell compiler < 1342141478 156638 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, why are there no Tcl "data structures" that map cleanly to a bunch of Tcl commands? < 1342141479 887901 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you add a new node into a tree < 1342141480 537508 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"give your compiler this one weird tip to make your data structures support efficient non-destructive update" < 1342141488 382039 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the "new tree" will share most of its storage with the old one < 1342141497 202800 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lists are good for one Tcl command, thus making construction with [list ... ] simple < 1342141504 664600 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There seems to be nothing for multiple commands < 1342141505 743683 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, well binaries are fairly efficient anyway. A lot of operations on them will do stuff like "this is a view of byte 8 to byte 83 (plus 3 extra bits) of this underlying binary" < 1342141506 702093 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Not with a naïve implementation that copies everything! < 1342141509 953189 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :won't that have a zillion tiny allocations? < 1342141514 818965 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which might be the most obvious implementation. < 1342141519 93400 :monqy_!~swell@pool-71-102-219-42.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1342141520 832742 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-219-42.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: Reconnecting < 1342141523 916342 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :honqy_ < 1342141524 494929 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(yeah binaries don't have to be whole byte sizes) < 1342141541 49810 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: sure, but a typical Haskell runtime uses an allocator where allocation is vastly cheaper than malloc() < 1342141541 579339 :monqy_!~swell@pool-71-102-219-42.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net NICK :monqy < 1342141561 111106 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh really < 1342141561 310225 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :though you pay for it later in the garbage collector < 1342141564 912937 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes < 1342141569 594113 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, anyway LISP style linked lists support prepending for example without copying < 1342141570 491486 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :allocation in GHC is just a matter of incrementing a pointer < 1342141575 902635 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does it do, just increment a pointer? < 1342141583 413413 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: that is an example of my fundamental property, not of some compiler trick < 1342141584 770093 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :or tail without copying < 1342141602 728793 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what does it do later when half the data in the array is alive and half is not < 1342141610 155505 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :recompact everything???!?? < 1342141613 221557 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :compacting garbage collector < 1342141613 717591 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1342141620 387112 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is also good for cache utilization < 1342141633 507615 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :???!?? < 1342141651 301935 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah provided you can lock the whole program for like 200ms once in a while < 1342141657 634073 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1342141667 623583 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : allocation in GHC is just a matter of incrementing a pointer <-- like a stack then? < 1342141671 407806 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't do that in the kind of code I write :D < 1342141675 637138 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have realtime constraints then the story is different < 1342141676 894952 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(games, software synths) < 1342141679 565112 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1342141696 186772 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm real time haskell, is there any hard realtime haskell variant? < 1342141699 529698 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :both of which are traditionally programmed in C++ < 1342141703 551692 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: ask in #haskell < 1342141710 601756 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: yes, like, a stack, but you never pop either < 1342141724 252221 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just accumulate objects in this region, in order, until it's full < 1342141726 390339 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you run the GC < 1342141727 30347 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, I'm going to be working with hard realtime systems pretty soon < 1342141730 769164 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"like, a stack, but you never pop" < 1342141732 994341 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa, dude < 1342141733 193540 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ie you leak until the GC runs < 1342141745 361307 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :got a job at Atlas Copco, starting the end of this month < 1342141750 69849 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: uh, yes < 1342141757 703133 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is how a GC works < 1342141771 450135 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not a reference-counting "GC"! < 1342141775 445208 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :using the word "leak" there is disingenuous < 1342141781 410070 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that's not really a GC. < 1342141792 351038 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: since when did words in CS mean anything? < 1342141801 550050 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : "like, a stack, but you never pop" <-- you could make your address space cyclic and use that as a cache kind of thing maybe?? < 1342141804 821412 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Good point. < 1342141818 907596 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need some way to detect overwritten references though < 1342141848 40268 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :really it's not disingenuous, just false < 1342141856 447074 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :a leak is an dead object which will never be freed < 1342141869 197568 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I guess it's a hyperbole < 1342141878 986982 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you say "hyperbole" i say "wrong" < 1342141881 896909 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not really a leak < 1342141885 919725 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway i'm not saying GC is the answer to anything < 1342141889 810274 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it is more efficient in some ways < 1342141892 424822 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and less efficient in others < 1342141897 360423 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :leak: Sometimes a leak is an object which has been freed despite best efforts to keep it hidden! < 1342141905 348659 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/lea(.)/\1mc/ < 1342141907 456761 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :people who don't like GC tend to paint it as strictly less efficient and for lazy programmers only < 1342141910 389602 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's simply not true < 1342141926 400638 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :since when was reference counting considered a GC? You could have a GC that detect and take care of cycles in such a system though (lol python) < 1342141933 748874 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :compacting garbage collection gives you faster allocation and better cache utilization, at the expense of periodic pauses < 1342141949 653007 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not convinced about better cache use < 1342141994 676075 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1342141998 257913 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i don't have any numbers handy < 1342142004 593700 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :this isn't an area i know in depth < 1342142011 141469 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about non compacting GC? < 1342142025 418202 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: Sucks. < 1342142044 219988 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It gives you all the downsides of GC with most of the downsides of malloc. < 1342142047 66274 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: Better cache use than what? < 1342142061 396750 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I'm pretty sure many VMs use those for small collections < 1342142070 108033 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :with bigger, compacting collections more rarely < 1342142076 782597 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless I missremember < 1342142085 801156 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :misremember* < 1342142096 271503 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: than traditional malloc-using C++ code I guess < 1342142104 177557 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you shouldn't be using malloc in C++ < 1342142109 904875 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: The smaller your heap the cheaper compacting GC is. < 1342142114 614277 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should use new, preferably with smart pointers < 1342142118 525368 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, hm true < 1342142121 517577 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: same as malloc < 1342142131 804323 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess by "C++" most people mean "C with whatever C++ features i feel like understanding" < 1342142142 65962 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well if you have a pool for very large allocations it might not be a good idea to compact that too often I guess < 1342142148 801423 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :except for the smart pointer thing < 1342142164 437743 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Yes, you'd probably be best trying to split it into small and large object pools. < 1342142172 683490 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, what are C++ smart pointers? < 1342142175 723391 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Compacting large allocations is really rather painful. < 1342142186 963601 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :a smart pointer is a class which wraps a pointer, but provides some nicer semantics and/or guarantees < 1342142187 204782 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :vorpal: reference counted objects AFAIK < 1342142189 824138 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, combined with a generational GC as well < 1342142193 436702 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :they aren't always reference counted < 1342142199 197942 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can have a reference-counted smart pointer < 1342142212 903567 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And besides which, you'll probably want to make it so that space contains objects that don't reference other things. < 1342142215 672340 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : a smart pointer is a class which wraps a pointer, but provides some nicer semantics and/or guarantees <-- like that which more higher level languages do? < 1342142223 603063 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(because most large buffers won't be giant pointer buffers) < 1342142237 111239 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway what, apart from reference counting could they usefully provide in C++ < 1342142237 321607 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can construct a shared_ptr from a T*, or copy-construct it from another shared_ptr < 1342142255 726767 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: They basically are reference counting... < 1342142259 177349 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it records somewhere the number of shared_ptr's holding that particular T* < 1342142263 569681 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, " they aren't always reference counted" < 1342142267 425950 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, so he is wrong then? < 1342142269 896196 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the destructor for a shared_ptr decrements the count < 1342142272 599416 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me finish < 1342142274 408814 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :god < 1342142275 772819 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: No, he's merely being more accurate. < 1342142280 187943 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm okay < 1342142283 935521 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :when it drops to 0, it calls delete on the original pointer < 1342142284 467523 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1342142288 548509 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a reference-counted smart pointer < 1342142292 320856 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can also make other kinds < 1342142300 177458 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric : i guess by "C++" most people mean "C with whatever C++ features i feel like understanding" -- which is actually fine so long as you don't have to read anyone elses code < 1342142306 947474 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: such as? < 1342142310 607299 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :like unique pointers < 1342142335 601897 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. They also can be used to give you guarantees like "delete this when it falls out of scope". < 1342142338 297265 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: How do you catch a unique pointer? < 1342142339 756606 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, how does it keep track of shared_ptr though? What if I pass a function a reference to a shared_ptr? Or are they small enough that you usually pass by value and invoke copy constructors all over the place? < 1342142347 850611 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :A: Unique up on it < 1342142348 49201 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: the latter < 1342142367 789984 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: the compiled representation of a shared_ptr is probably the same as a T* < 1342142379 375073 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno < 1342142382 248676 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, plus a reference count surely? < 1342142384 657474 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the reference counting is done in some global hidden structure < 1342142389 326736 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah... < 1342142391 130087 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, the reference count has to ba global < 1342142392 211395 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1342142394 326980 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, so are they thread safe? < 1342142403 625203 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :if each shared_ptr had their own count, then they would all have a count of 1... < 1342142407 225461 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should be in the structure that is getting counted no? < 1342142412 947919 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: you can build those too < 1342142415 830349 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"intrusive shared pointers" < 1342142422 935065 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :more programmer effort, somewhat more efficient < 1342142439 137131 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I don't know about the thread saftey guarantees of Boost's or C++11's implementations of this idea < 1342142445 487945 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :doing it without having it in the structure being counted sounds very much like a kludge < 1342142450 3107 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :in general yes, you can make a thread-safe shared pointer < 1342142458 787957 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't seem like a kludge to me, really < 1342142467 367444 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :only a little bit < 1342142473 120321 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least, no more so than anything else in C++. < 1342142480 240683 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, touche < 1342142487 329044 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thread-safe shared pointer? what, by locking a mutex to it every time you manipulate it? :D < 1342142516 609092 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: well first of all, it would only be when you create/destroy a shared_ptr, not dereference one < 1342142520 853875 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr, implementing an atomic counter isn't that hard targeting most ISAs < 1342142535 833235 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :implementing a hash table of atomic counts is harder < 1342142540 869808 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still quite doable < 1342142549 431266 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :why a hash table? < 1342142555 457671 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :given that this is a piece of core library code which is hopefully not re-implemented in every project < 1342142558 576359 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right, if it doesn't have anything except the pointer < 1342142559 564888 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :though knowing C and C++, it likely is < 1342142564 951217 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :a pointer pair seems better < 1342142566 109428 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: you need a map from T* to reference count < 1342142583 193144 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: pointer to T and also pointer to its count location in the table? < 1342142584 123950 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd need atomic count+value no? < 1342142585 199986 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah maybe < 1342142587 920999 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know how it's done < 1342142606 622726 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could also maybe use a per-thread count for some things. < 1342142626 974843 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise your count may be accurate but it can still change whenever no? :D < 1342142634 831811 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr, x86 provides atomic increment/decrement iirc. And there is always CAS < 1342142654 800855 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need atomic [inc/dec PLUS value read/write] < 1342142657 934631 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I *think* < 1342142667 686484 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course if they are in a table, that is going to play hell with the cache line ownership between the CPUs < 1342142670 400473 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yeah < 1342142697 165820 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think the Linux kernel uses per-CPU reference counting for some objects < 1342142715 425224 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't remember the exact semantics < 1342142716 290475 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :the linux kernel uses a lot of snazzy data structures < 1342142734 978041 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: It's a fun performance issue when you have per-thread counters for something (not referece counts, just integers) and you put them all in one array, so that each thread does arr[tid]++; < 1342142754 382421 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf, that is just going to kill the performance XD < 1342142756 221438 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Well, yes. A kernel is fundamentally no more than a pile of allocators and schedulers. :) < 1342142784 589221 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, a lot of device drivers too (unless a micro kernel, in which case it is just some device drivers) < 1342142908 515581 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how real time are real time OSes these days? < 1342142923 220935 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh, completely? < 1342142943 413458 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, what latency can you get :D < 1342142948 2935 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1342142950 937613 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is a different question < 1342142958 550016 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :1ms? 100us? 10us? :D < 1342142959 276675 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr, you misunderstood the meaning of a real time OS < 1342142966 165786 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"real time" does not mean "super low latency" necessarily < 1342142970 806868 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it means that you care what the latency is < 1342142980 872446 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can have a "hard real time" system where the latency bound is 60 seconds < 1342142990 320378 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's still hard real time because if you miss that deadline, the plane blows up or whatever < 1342142994 141695 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not all that /likely/, but it fits the definition :) < 1342142999 872612 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it is pretty likely < 1342143002 924257 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A key characteristic of an RTOS is the level of its consistency concerning the amount of time it takes to accept and complete an application's task;" < 1342143004 38009 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :planes take a while to blow up < 1342143011 962475 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's latency < 1342143014 128344 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :it means that you can work out guarantees that the latency running a specific set of software on it will be within specific limits < 1342143021 458857 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it is about predictable and guaranteed latency bounds < 1342143027 879157 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: Yes, CONSISTENCY, not BREVITY. < 1342143090 358757 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi Gregor < 1342143093 649572 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I confused you with Vorpal < 1342143102 706563 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1342143102 996070 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then if your guaranteed time is 100ms... that's still not so cool :D < 1342143120 499609 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that depends on the application < 1342143126 742921 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : you can have a "hard real time" system where the latency bound is 60 seconds <-- I'd hate to draw the timing diagram for that, given that most other stuff will probably be in the millisecond range < 1342143129 138437 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you really do not seem to be getting this idea < 1342143133 111467 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Capital letter, five more letters. < 1342143148 758498 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Right. < 1342143149 19679 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah was asking for irl values < 1342143155 90982 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is now known as Vergor
< 1342143160 218705 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1342143163 218361 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is now known as Vregor
< 1342143170 161790 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if capital letters are "actually" easy to distinguish without reading them. < 1342143186 693344 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you gave someone who can't read English a text with capital and lower-case letters, would they be able to pick out the capitals? < 1342143203 978330 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Capital thorn is smaller than lowercase thorn! 8-D < 1342143216 673338 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf, well the rest of the word shape is different too, r is half the height of l < 1342143243 18980 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf, if they know the latin script, sure? < 1342143244 36157 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: just say that you don't know the values and don't care, jeez < 1342143279 62786 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr, your question made no sense. < 1342143283 922223 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: Come on, don't troll kmc. :-( < 1342143305 435173 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's dumb that you keep badgering us over t his < 1342143314 128384 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :when it's probably plastered all over the front page of anyone marketing a RTOS < 1342143326 508886 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr, most real time systems are probably slower than your average PC in average response time. But the thing is, you don't know the maximum response time on your OS. It might suddenly swap trash for example < 1342143339 609045 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: at least I haven't still got Virgil in here ;) < 1342143463 487020 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1342143474 286680 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems more for military usage then yeah < 1342143484 113460 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and planes < 1342143499 273868 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr, your car probably contains at least one if it isn't too old < 1342143512 506418 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :The ABS brakes for a start < 1342143519 585979 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :any ESP system < 1342143521 226151 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1342143533 985393 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :because if those took too long. Yeah would be bad < 1342143539 398151 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :realtime control systems outnumber "computers" by a huge factor < 1342143545 952126 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :not all of them use an "operating system" though < 1342143558 53613 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :many are just simple microcontrollers running a single program at a deterministic speed < 1342143559 598442 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, control systems in general outnumber what we normally think of as computers < 1342143566 906378 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1342143584 587756 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1342143594 247268 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :dishwasher, freezer, TV, washing machine. Doubt any of those run RTOS. < 1342143604 29631 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :or well maybe they though (not the TV though) < 1342143613 523150 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/they/they do/ < 1342143628 136301 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :most digital TVs run Linux < 1342143629 30056 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no idea what they put in TVs these days < 1342143641 199927 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as did set top boxes during the analogue->digital transition < 1342143651 246459 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :vxworks is probably convenient to put in a dishwasher even if you don't use the real time properties. < 1342143658 569314 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :either that or it runs on bare metal < 1342143667 522235 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :in which case it is most likely not real time in any way < 1342143678 421610 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1342143686 601405 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's about as real time as it gets. < 1342143687 71144 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? < 1342143692 632732 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're the only program running on the chip... < 1342143709 836009 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, you have to design that program so you can be sure it won't ever enter an extra long loop though < 1342143711 73893 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the chip has no cache and out of order execution? < 1342143713 468089 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise it isn't real time < 1342143719 561429 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: sure < 1342143729 3201 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :vorpal: some people do that afaik :D < 1342143734 605611 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :or you do everything time sensitive in a timer interrupt < 1342143739 260717 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr, sure, I done it at university < 1342143740 856787 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah < 1342143747 192847 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :using vxworks was much easier though < 1342143750 249714 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :simple microcontrollers give you totally deterministic execution < 1342143754 976275 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :no cache, no out of order execution < 1342143758 329600 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :since then you knew the scheduler would prioritise the right thing < 1342143763 248997 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :each instruction takes a known number of clock cycles, always < 1342143769 811988 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :without a scheduler, well you have to get everything perfectly right < 1342143776 883181 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: ie too long :D < 1342143784 715551 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr, not really < 1342143796 644793 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr, they work fine for what they are designed for < 1342143806 958213 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, not too long for a microcontroller application where there's little data to crunch through < 1342143813 558662 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: that's fucking annoying, stop asserting that things are "too slow" without knowing what the application is < 1342143823 439168 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you strike me as one of those people who programs in C because it means your e-penis is so big < 1342143829 968948 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, he is obviously trolling you < 1342143832 732948 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1342143846 306820 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't feed the troll (I know that can be hard) < 1342143862 918745 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: don't be silly. He obviously writes direct to machine code. In binary. With butterflies. < 1342143880 362238 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :with e-penis < 1342143888 243226 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :eheh < 1342143888 442193 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :soundnfury, you make me laugh. He loads customised microcode into the processor < 1342143903 468616 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i shit trains, what now < 1342143905 122250 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't be silly, he doesn't use processors with microcode, they're "too slow" < 1342143913 174609 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1342143925 697890 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hardwired logic 4 lyfe < 1342143938 722647 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the kind of system that doesn't have cache miss because essentially every memory access is a cache miss :D < 1342143942 60608 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why am I still looking at Tcl instead of Lisp? < 1342143948 841127 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you have deterministic time < 1342143950 229658 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :TTL logic is kind of fun. < 1342143960 126786 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: no, it's more like every memory access is a cache *hit* < 1342143965 614997 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :AVR microcontrollers have all SRAM < 1342143967 961852 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about time-loop logic? < 1342143970 889603 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or it has like 1k ram so it doesn't have cache misses yeah :D < 1342143972 296790 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, hm do AVR processors even have a pipeline? < 1342143979 838828 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact there's not much distinction between registers and RAM < 1342143985 252859 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess some might have a 2 stage pipeline or something simple like that < 1342144004 253494 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: isn't "TTL logic" a PIN-number-ism? < 1342144005 757414 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the registers are just the first n locations in RAM, they have a special addressing mode but show up as normal memory too < 1342144010 235356 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :soundnfury: oh god < 1342144012 530384 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :soundnfury, yeah and? < 1342144020 436962 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is the dumbest thing to care about < 1342144033 703075 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: what can I say? I'm a pedantic dickweed < 1342144039 498214 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :soundnfury, it is also a CD disc thing. It is not quite a Personal PIN Number-ism though < 1342144044 710768 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :saying "TTL is kind of fun" is more ambiguous and awkward < 1342144049 841330 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :language exists to serve the needs of communication < 1342144055 698278 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :not to satisfy the arbitrary rules of pedantic dickweeds < 1342144058 664572 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: my eyes my eyes it burns < 1342144061 226131 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you also object to "all OK"? < 1342144061 752616 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, kmc. < 1342144069 160448 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :the wires very quickly ends up being tricky to keep track of though < 1342144090 622885 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember doing a binary->2 digit BCD converter in a lab at university < 1342144091 675193 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: the rules aren't arbitrary, they exist to serve the needs of communication < 1342144103 56249 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :after all OK might be (nobody's quite sure) an initialism for "oll korrect", an intentional misspelling of "all correct" < 1342144104 813973 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :the mess of wires, aiee < 1342144107 427018 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so "all OK" is ambiguous < 1342144111 92723 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1342144111 291544 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :er redundant < 1342144113 866453 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :just like "ATM machine" < 1342144115 533061 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :am i right < 1342144125 349073 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Oh no! < 1342144137 700684 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :We don't *know* whether it's redundant or not! < 1342144145 246914 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's, like, quantum pedantry, man. < 1342144151 727087 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: who cares? Everyone calls it a hole-in-the-wall anyway :p < 1342144154 166376 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :soundnfury, I have a compact CD disc here < 1342144166 524451 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itt: nerds saying the things nerds always say < 1342144173 339481 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :soundnfury, with that I mean it is one of those mini-sized ones < 1342144188 434009 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: you mean a minidisc? < 1342144197 37036 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :soundnfury, is that the name of them? Maybe < 1342144204 205896 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"n order to maximize performance and parallelism, the AVR uses a Harvard architecture – with < 1342144208 409988 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :separate memories and buses for program and data. Instructions in the program memory are < 1342144211 691685 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :it fits into the inner depression in the CD reader < 1342144212 725494 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :executed with a single level pipelining. < 1342144216 72761 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or one of those silly "singles" disks that play in a normal CD player? < 1342144221 239051 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry for spam, failed copying from pdf < 1342144222 379926 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :those are fscking pointless < 1342144224 595671 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, hm nice < 1342144234 137874 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yeah I know it uses Harvard < 1342144237 522139 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yeah, it's a 2 stage fetch-execute pipeline < 1342144240 573289 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lot of microcontrollers do < 1342144246 942925 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you can also load data from program memory < 1342144252 542976 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can write to program memory using special instructions < 1342144252 741481 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :PIC and AVR do at least < 1342144255 805063 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything uses either hard or soft harvard these days < 1342144262 874808 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really have no idea about any other micro controller architectures < 1342144266 746461 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :which ones are there even < 1342144268 385601 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :#Fight fiercely, Harvard, fight fight fight! < 1342144271 467686 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :8051 is very popular < 1342144279 658206 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, which ISA is that? < 1342144281 246561 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ARM is used as a microcontroller too < 1342144289 628568 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: it's, uh, the 8051 ISA? < 1342144292 346423 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: ah yeah, saw one of those < 1342144294 361174 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh okay < 1342144309 410012 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think for low-end applications the Z80 still gets used as a microcontroller < 1342144309 881305 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :68k is used as a microcontroller too < 1342144310 400976 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, hm ARM really has a huge span < 1342144314 869333 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tend to quite faster too < 1342144317 703102 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :soundnfury, like in my graph calculator < 1342144322 489526 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and MIPS and PPC implementations < 1342144324 912234 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :though that is like 12 years old now < 1342144331 353894 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :with nice features like fast multipliers < 1342144332 661425 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :awesome battery time though < 1342144336 674533 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can synthesize a PPC chip on a higher end FPGA < 1342144346 196566 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :4xAAA lasts several years in it < 1342144347 709371 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: yeah, ARM has a huge span < 1342144362 932122 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a licensed ISA with many implementations < 1342144365 558716 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: graphical calculators are shoite tho < 1342144378 991789 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, which ARM ISA are they using for microcontrollers? Not ARM7 I guess < 1342144383 936960 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :beats me < 1342144387 101258 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no more like arm11 < 1342144403 521302 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr, stop trolling by making up stuff < 1342144411 877707 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me look it up < 1342144440 954300 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr, the last version is 8 < 1342144444 481921 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no ARM11 < 1342144467 657123 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and there are no products based on version 8 yet) < 1342144477 838679 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :soundnfury, hm, they work well for their intended purpose though < 1342144478 901493 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :afaik arm11 is the raspberry pi's processor and has armv6 instruction set but that's probably fairly higher end and there are probably much more limited ones < 1342144491 77039 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it's confusing < 1342144500 313961 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Hey, "PowerPC computing" is also redundant. < 1342144520 792788 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf, that C stands for computing? < 1342144522 528048 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.arm.com/products/processors/classic/arm11/index.php < 1342144523 711132 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1342144532 298854 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hrrrng, shachaf: that is NOT redundant. < 1342144548 209246 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :how about "ARM machine" < 1342144548 819067 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's like when people say that "SMS message" is redundant because the 'M' stands for messaging. < 1342144559 669235 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So is "ARM Machine"! < 1342144566 182620 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aw. < 1342144567 830683 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1342144576 21965 :Lumpio-!~matti@62-113-182-248.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the C in PowerPC stands for computing ,__, < 1342144589 711152 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :“ARM machine” I would be more agreeable to. Also the 'C' in PowerPC surely stands for comput/er/? < 1342144593 383610 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ARM ATM Machine < 1342144596 914011 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, uh, Short SMS Service would be redundant technically < 1342144599 718474 :comex!~comex@ec2-23-22-255-183.compute-1.amazonaws.com QUIT :*.net *.split < 1342144601 206200 :Lumpio-!~matti@62-113-182-248.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't < 1342144604 765122 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Yes, that would be. < 1342144606 543459 :Lumpio-!~matti@62-113-182-248.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I learned that yesterday. < 1342144607 55480 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :though I think the interpretation would be rather different actually < 1342144608 960338 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: But "SMS message" is not. < 1342144612 253538 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lumpio-: Hm. < 1342144614 556512 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is < 1342144616 380285 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, of course < 1342144616 579461 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the dumbest thing < 1342144617 371013 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see what's redundant about Short Messaging Service message at all. < 1342144617 823641 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :to care about < 1342144630 581856 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The service is for short messaging, and you have a message through it. < 1342144632 337967 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Agreed! < 1342144645 486167 :Lumpio-!~matti@62-113-182-248.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like the new automatic ATM machines < 1342144650 293767 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, "Short SMS Service" is redundant. < 1342144654 538313 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lumpio-: HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHHA FUNNAY JOKE < 1342144654 979659 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was the point < 1342144656 80440 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION sends pikhq a short SMS message.
< 1342144667 929557 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not like 20 people have already made that joke in the past 5 min < 1342144676 357260 :Lumpio-!~matti@62-113-182-248.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'M ON FIRE < 1342144680 88731 :Lumpio-!~matti@62-113-182-248.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know. < 1342144681 771704 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :LET'S ALL USE ACRONYMS REDUNDANTLY GUYS, ON PURPOSE < 1342144682 275878 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yawn < 1342144686 445705 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :IT'S IRONY < 1342144690 315674 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I.R.O.N.Y. < 1342144693 417098 :Lumpio-!~matti@62-113-182-248.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :RAS syndrome day < 1342144703 371393 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lumpio-, pay royalties. I started it with the compact CD disc (minidisc) < 1342144706 816169 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuckinfg nerds < 1342144711 133166 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i should get drunk < 1342144713 157137 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Have you filed with the Department of Redundancy Department? < 1342144717 993769 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :surfin the web on my pc computer < 1342144721 962544 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead i'm going to eat a pizza < 1342144731 575626 :Lumpio-!~matti@62-113-182-248.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :>joins #esoteric >complains about nerds < 1342144732 718922 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Hey, I wish I had a pizza right now. < 1342144738 606402 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, You meant the Redundant Department of Redundancy Department? < 1342144759 714020 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Is your pizza vegetarian? < 1342144771 220305 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lumpio-: hey, i like interesting nerd conversations < 1342144772 916113 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :veggie pizza is nice < 1342144779 289431 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :not Standard Nerd Conversation #15 < 1342144791 495240 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :next up: i don't care about sports and I want you to know this < 1342144792 33340 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has tons of nice things on it < 1342144794 134843 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :$relevant_xkcd < 1342144799 241543 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/20120712.gif < 1342144809 246476 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION actually watches football
< 1342144814 608055 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :the issue with pizzas is that too many seem to contain tomatoes. Sure there are those without, but I would say that the majority of pizzas found over here contain tomatoes < 1342144830 363206 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't know if it is the same elsewhere < 1342144838 330439 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how is that an issue < 1342144841 60040 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: please weigh in regarding pizzas and tomatoes < 1342144848 719933 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Here, pizza *typically* only contains tomato sauce. < 1342144851 390113 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr, because I don't like tomato? < 1342144862 711065 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahah then you're screwed yes < 1342144862 910178 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :tomatoes* < 1342144864 53243 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I think I'll get a prosciutto calzone, actually. So, no. < 1342144876 727497 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose some pizzas contain sun-dried tomatoes, but those aren't the "typical" ones. < 1342144893 34101 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: I recommend a vegetarian pizza.r < 1342144898 767934 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1342144901 266885 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i probably should get one < 1342144903 772463 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :to be a good person < 1342144915 501390 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't like "veggie pizza" generally, but i do like (say) mushrooms and pineapples < 1342144917 479340 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : next up: i don't care about sports and I want you to know this <-- oh I care about some sports < 1342144920 86459 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also nice: spicy chicken, mexican < 1342144922 264167 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly esports < 1342144928 448435 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION doesn't like "veggie pizza"
< 1342144931 587185 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't really care about physical sports though < 1342144937 394062 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :depends on the kind of veggies it has < 1342144948 528450 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :onions, olives => yum < 1342144974 764288 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are a lot of vegetables that I don't like that much, for being vegetarian. < 1342144980 284324 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dislike onions and, because this is the internet, my opinion of onions is also an objectively true fact < 1342144980 651674 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And a few that I really hate. < 1342144982 925618 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like bell peppers. < 1342144991 244537 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, what about garlic? < 1342144994 922261 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i love garlic < 1342144996 609185 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bell peppers = the devil < 1342144998 204034 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't get enough garlic < 1342145000 693358 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, good for you < 1342145000 961015 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: what about hot peppers? :D < 1342145009 758344 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :jalapeno poppers < 1342145009 957069 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Friggin' bell peppers. They're peppers with too little flavor! < 1342145011 963380 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm told that shallots are halfway between onion and garlic < 1342145014 638510 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :'Specially the green ones. < 1342145017 447178 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: Less devil than bell. < 1342145018 79825 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i don't have a strong opinion of them yet < 1342145020 976973 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jerks, not even ripe. < 1342145025 639532 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, as I don't have to kill you know due to taking taste way too seriously (as is the tradition on the internet) < 1342145034 133597 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Too *little*? < 1342145047 855290 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Their flavor -- and smell -- and texture -- makes me want to vomit. < 1342145048 968685 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Why would you want peppers without capsaicin? < 1342145052 1620 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: if you think we're bad, try reading comp.lang.c < 1342145055 766008 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: hah you remind me of one guy I met < 1342145058 726083 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ask them about the declaration of main < 1342145063 977595 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1342145065 856865 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really like too much pepper < 1342145068 47176 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :was vegan, didn't like salad < 1342145071 374748 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and see if you can fit in a cast of the return value of malloc while you're at it < 1342145072 861140 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: do you like szechuan peppercorn? < 1342145077 152405 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :a bit of traditional black pepper is enough for me < 1342145078 53064 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Also: green bell peppers are literally unripe. This is just evil. < 1342145097 281781 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1342145104 752285 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :his diet consisted of veggie burgers, KFC potato wedges, chips and various other crunchies and sugary things < 1342145112 948737 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I don't really go above black pepper when it comes to pepper < 1342145148 139333 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: What a bland existence. < 1342145153 603916 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a pizza base as an ingredient works with just about everything < 1342145154 463041 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I buy those pots of minced chili at the corner store < 1342145157 399724 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, eh, I add more garlic instead < 1342145164 825701 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then I put that shit on everything < 1342145166 698200 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, you can't have too much garlic < 1342145168 365252 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Okay, that's at least respectable. < 1342145187 658170 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :main(argc, argv) char **argv; { return 0; } < 1342145188 158148 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :♥ garlic < 1342145192 395417 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :today I had chicken nuggets with honey and chili paste < 1342145194 588839 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: I don't know. < 1342145211 404602 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: do you know about it? < 1342145216 338063 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I ate at an Indian restaurant once (and I ordered extra mild). I'm never going to eat at an Indian restaurant again! < 1342145221 662044 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :way too spicy < 1342145221 861955 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Green bell peppers, red bell peppers, yellow, orange, blue, I don't care. < 1342145223 628678 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :vorpal: what < 1342145231 302557 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: The *mild* was too spicy? < 1342145235 254174 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, yes < 1342145239 107588 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::O < 1342145239 306874 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :on pizzas, i generally go for olives, mushrooms, anchovies, cows, pigs, chickens < 1342145239 757078 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: They're still in a shitty place, mind you. < 1342145243 453911 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Sans capsaicin. < 1342145251 892405 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: That's sad. < 1342145265 127874 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, sure it tasted good, but it played hell with my mouth < 1342145280 235490 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need the antidote < 1342145281 751545 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i tend to assume a pizza will have a base of tomato, garlic and cheese, however, when my brother cooked vegan pizzas i found that you can taste the ingredients more without the cheese < 1342145289 963200 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr, ? < 1342145292 420714 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What, do you guys do a British-style "boil the flavor out" diet? :P < 1342145292 973267 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: I don't know. < 1342145298 542331 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :indians have that crazy yougurt drink < 1342145311 151781 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :absorbs capsaicin < 1342145325 366222 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, that's pretty good stuff. < 1342145330 712041 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr, yeah I used that. Too bad I don't really like yougurt though. < 1342145338 371577 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heathen! < 1342145354 445343 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tomato, yougurt and fish. Those are the mostly random things I really hate eating. < 1342145358 837971 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need to get good yogurt, not cheap crap < 1342145360 564037 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose next you'll tell me you don't like bacon. < 1342145366 983468 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, oh I love bacon < 1342145379 455896 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmm, cured pig-meats. < 1342145381 895770 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i eat fish practically every day < 1342145389 767022 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: lassi? < 1342145394 175942 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a large difference between a good yogurt brand and whatever cheap dental paste you can find < 1342145395 464642 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :mango lassi is fucking amazing < 1342145398 727636 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: yes < 1342145402 405168 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :also want to try bhang lassi sometime < 1342145412 953402 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :speaking of dental paste. I forgot mint < 1342145417 680215 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really don't like mint either < 1342145498 41330 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me guess, you don't like beer either? :D < 1342145504 770530 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or coffee? :D < 1342145505 786008 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr, I'm a teetotaller < 1342145516 707311 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :cinnamon I have a slight negative opinion on. It doesn't taste good, but it is editable. < 1342145525 161090 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cilantro? < 1342145527 886824 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sickening. < 1342145538 789664 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :as for coffee, the taste is okay, but eh, I can stay awake anyway < 1342145553 83494 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :cilantro? no clue what that is. Google Translate time < 1342145560 614386 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :aka coriander leaves < 1342145564 694552 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1342145575 145896 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr, no opinion either way < 1342145608 977636 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guess you're not one of the unfortunate people who have a gene making it taste like soap, then. < 1342145614 857080 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thai food? :D < 1342145632 790040 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: "Yes please." < 1342145635 87285 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I honestly don't know if I ever eaten coriander though. < 1342145641 195193 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr, never tried < 1342145655 829964 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like Chinese restaurants though < 1342145666 314215 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :viet? < 1342145669 2556 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Thai is profoundly spicy. < 1342145669 880735 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and Italian ones < 1342145679 539029 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I would guess the answer is "no" then < 1342145681 954016 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr, huh? < 1342145686 432264 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :vietnamese < 1342145690 489274 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :no idea < 1342145695 350605 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :never tried < 1342145698 105678 :comex!~comex@ec2-23-22-255-183.compute-1.amazonaws.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1342145705 242757 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also peanutty in some cases... < 1342145721 792678 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :peanuts aren't used a lot in Sweden really < 1342145722 570789 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :haven't tried extremely hot thai yet < 1342145729 103826 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :we see it as something rather American < 1342145737 778228 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :To be fair, it is. < 1342145742 34338 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :We love our peanuts. < 1342145742 432614 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :peanut butter is very definitely regarded as an American thing over here < 1342145747 826426 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially peanut butter. < 1342145751 621708 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it tastes meh. Editable sure, but what is the point < 1342145767 110534 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :vorpal: makes a good sauce for skewers :D < 1342145773 598933 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. < 1342145776 122658 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr, Parse Error < 1342145791 16600 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea what you are talking about < 1342145797 832535 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, also you go crazy with apple pies < 1342145805 246971 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :peanut butter + thai hot sauce + some jalapenos < 1342145806 557795 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Yes. They are delicious. < 1342145829 351134 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the thai hot and really sweet sauce) < 1342145848 774772 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :+ maybe some extra garlic if the thai hot sweet sauce doesn't already have tons < 1342145883 577644 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Swedish image of a stereotypical American: eats peanut butter, apple pies and hamburgers. Drives an oversized car and drives it even if he is just going like 4 houses away from home. Is most likely overweight. Has a gun without being a hunter. < 1342145899 841915 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :make some meat cubes, let that marinate in the sauce, put the cubes on some skewers (ie make kebabs), put on barbecue < 1342145905 887797 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, how accurate is it? < 1342145911 767109 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Ish. < 1342145917 548098 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :vorpal, i would guess thats probably true on average < 1342145922 154331 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: No American eats peanut butter straight, for one... < 1342145922 551855 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :keep some of the sauce for putting on the kebabs after cooking < 1342145924 321779 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, that is kind of sad < 1342145929 184836 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :im not american < 1342145931 622001 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :im just guessing < 1342145933 567665 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what do you mean "straight"? < 1342145939 915603 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure I meant on toast or such < 1342145944 270941 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly on the apple pie < 1342145945 74902 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Ah. < 1342145946 859911 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :wouldn't surprise me < 1342145952 318752 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Peanut butter on toast is a common thing. < 1342145959 259598 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :apple pie is american? < 1342145959 460716 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not, you should try peanut butter on apple pie < 1342145961 436165 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :More common is as part of a sandwich, or as an ingredient. < 1342145969 185953 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apple pie is typically done with ice cream. < 1342145970 184857 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: szeuchan peppercorn produces a tingly sensation that is said to be like licking a 9 volt battery < 1342145970 386285 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: american restaurants enjoy releasing burgers designed to give health problems :D < 1342145975 200067 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr, yes definitely. Sure it happens elsewhere. But over there it is a constant state < 1342145976 860763 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's totally unlike spicy peppers or pretty much anything else < 1342145983 254215 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hamburgers are very common. < 1342145990 484443 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, that *is* the stereotypical meal. < 1342145992 793161 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean.. like.. monster burgers < 1342145996 815556 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: yes it's a conspiracy by the man that you're fat < 1342146006 156406 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it couldn't possibly be that the restaurants are just producing what people want to eat < 1342146013 509387 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Nearly all US cars are probably oversized by your standards. < 1342146022 24871 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1342146033 264929 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have eaten scoops of peanut butter out of the jar < 1342146033 464885 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure I like szechuan pepper < 1342146035 955877 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: its a pleasant coincedence.. < 1342146039 222944 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I would say we have a large car, it being a station wagon. But it is small compared to the american ones < 1342146042 169951 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me find an image < 1342146043 461721 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: I've never licked a 9-volt battery. < 1342146045 529139 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's kinda like flavoring stuff with cedar fruit < 1342146049 851950 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: We wouldn't drive somewhere actually that close, but we would probably drive distances you'd consider walking distance just because it's not sane to walk most places. < 1342146055 821905 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :people want to eat satirically unhealthy burgers < 1342146059 491680 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Statistically, we are fairly likely to be overweight. < 1342146068 145602 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :burgers aren't too bad < 1342146073 139970 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the cola that kills you < 1342146078 889801 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, this https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c5/Fiat_Marea_Weekend_front_20090329.jpg < 1342146081 97754 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: And the gun ownership thing is mostly rural areas or parts of the South. < 1342146082 947093 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, do you consider that large? < 1342146085 3255 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"As many fast-food chains introduce healthier fare amid fears of being sued, Hardee�s is bucking the trend, serving up a megaburger with 1,420 calories and 107 grams of fat." < 1342146092 147975 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't the number of calories you consume far more important than the particular composition of the food? < 1342146100 918750 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean if you ate 20 "healthy" burgers t hat would be pretty bad too < 1342146102 125665 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Small-to-average. < 1342146105 319147 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "Monster Thickburger" � two 1/3-pound slabs of Angus beef, four strips of bacon, three slices of cheese and mayonnaise on a buttered sesame seed bun � sells alone for $5.49, $7.09 with fries and a soda. < 1342146122 485446 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I would consider it large. Especially when I reverse it into a parking slot. < 1342146129 144828 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yeah < 1342146132 277332 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :non-diet soda is just dumb < 1342146138 986783 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :learn to like diet soda taste, or drink something else < 1342146139 401885 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: yeah but just compare that to the soft drink tubs that comes with them < 1342146149 712005 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : isn't the number of calories you consume far more important than the particular composition of the food? <-- not really iirc < 1342146150 752953 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :soft drinks suck < 1342146161 388942 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :you want a bit of everything and not too much of anything < 1342146166 322743 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are the worst cheap industrial crap < 1342146168 23373 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and some healthy exercise as well < 1342146202 395604 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :drink pepsi in restaurants, whatever, they need a profit margin after all < 1342146206 13916 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: We have tons of people driving fairly *large* pickup trucks. < 1342146211 976786 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr, I drink water in there < 1342146212 178096 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :drink pepsi at home, are you crazy? < 1342146222 512883 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Not because they actually use it. But because they just want a giant vehicle. < 1342146223 218815 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i think some places have these deals that if you can eat the whole meal you can have it for free (but i admit its all a bit satirical) < 1342146227 225640 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do people do carbonated drinks. They mess up my stomach < 1342146234 389527 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it doesn't add to the taste < 1342146249 397782 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :advertisement < 1342146270 350310 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: it's a prisoner's dilemma, if you are driving a massive car and get into a collision with someone driving a less massive car, you will do better < 1342146272 746092 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think at some point coke or pepsi tried doing less ads, and the sales fell < 1342146287 271886 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and we can't stop driving so many cars and having so many collisions because it's The American Way < 1342146288 616637 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, my parents actually have a reason to own a station wagon. My mom is a garden nerd. That car can take 15 x 50 kg bags of earth or manure < 1342146307 248364 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :god forbid we should make transportation the responsibility of trained experts rather than every drunken idiot < 1342146315 928260 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, would likely have had a smaller car if it wasn't for that < 1342146333 239006 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, your driving test is a joke < 1342146340 257439 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :my driving test? < 1342146343 321231 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION doesn't have a driving test
< 1342146345 88022 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :no the US one < 1342146347 66059 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: European small vehicles literally don't sell in the US. < 1342146352 716780 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and US car safety regulations the same < 1342146354 6649 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: There's not a US driving test. < 1342146354 933557 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: there isn't a "US driving test" < 1342146362 29110 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :every state has their own test and procedures for granting licenses < 1342146362 422701 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: There's 50 driving tests. < 1342146363 644282 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1342146368 987232 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of them are jokes < 1342146369 684031 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: probably at least 52 < 1342146370 446198 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just 50? < 1342146371 181361 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :from what I heard < 1342146374 840202 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Ah, duh. < 1342146385 366067 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :DC, Puerto Rico, et al. < 1342146402 477732 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean come on, you don't regulate the maximum light emitted from the half-light (or whatever you call that in English) < 1342146409 78440 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the US Virgin Islands they drive on the left side of the road. < 1342146412 71116 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :federalism isn't quite dead, it's just that now the states handle whatever the federal government doesn't want to do, rather than having some actual soverignty < 1342146418 524936 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: really? < 1342146418 726320 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :from what I read your car headlamp rules are a joke compared to EU < 1342146427 380563 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Well, at least on the one island I was on. < 1342146432 275476 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :read the WP article about car headlamps < 1342146432 475369 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are federal car standards and state ones as well < 1342146440 149007 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example california is famous for more strict emissions standards < 1342146448 92135 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Wikipedia confirms it < 1342146464 133953 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, ^ < 1342146474 247739 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Yes, our licensing and regulations are lax in general. < 1342146474 473625 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1342146490 380334 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: In part because you basically can't hold down a job without a vehicle. < 1342146501 243260 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, they were overly strict before. Only permitting round ones from like the 1950s to the 1970s or so iirc < 1342146504 625952 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :except in certain areas < 1342146508 703537 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ pikhq < 1342146512 662606 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Yes. < 1342146517 942508 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no smooth glass in front to reduce areodynamic drag < 1342146525 186647 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :what were you guys thinking? < 1342146540 308818 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Protectionism, of course. < 1342146552 254744 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, huh? < 1342146554 955407 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it's impossible to sell a European vehicle in the US, that protects the US car industry! < 1342146556 773970 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :gotta compete with the wily Japanese < 1342146560 532886 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Yes, this is a mindset. < 1342146565 73082 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, they just made slight modifications < 1342146576 534429 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'll note that this didn't actually work out too well. :) < 1342146581 926620 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1342146595 992354 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :turns out that without competition, they made shit cars! < 1342146605 719338 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you use (used?) your own voltage standards for the car headlamps < 1342146619 895555 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :12.8 instead of 12 V iirc < 1342146622 863636 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something like that < 1342146662 994290 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the one thing I don't get is 50 vs 60 hz hdtv < 1342146667 806099 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The first dual-filament halogen bulb (to produce a low and a high beam with only one bulb), the H4, was released in 1971 and quickly became the predominant headlamp bulb throughout the world except in the United States, where the H4 is still not legal for automotive use. In 1992, the Americans created their own standard for a bulb called HB2/9003, almost identical to H4 except with more stringent const < 1342146668 13755 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :raints on filament geometry and positional variance, and power consumption and light output expressed at the U.S. test voltage of 12.8V." < 1342146675 397709 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr, hm? < 1342146692 902034 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: That's just hysterical raisins. < 1342146701 833737 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr, what are you talking about? < 1342146716 648098 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is there more than 1 hdtv standard < 1342146721 131234 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :the vertical refresh rate? < 1342146721 486467 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Some places use 1080i50, others use 1080i60. < 1342146724 996667 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1342146741 709976 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought TV used like 24 or 30 FPS < 1342146741 908330 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so ridiculous < 1342146746 724558 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha no < 1342146752 524933 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the specs for broadcast TV are completely different in USA vs elsewhere < 1342146755 28950 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not just framerate < 1342146758 167533 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: 50/60 Hz. < 1342146766 530906 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: NTSC (US and some other places) uses 29.97 FPS < 1342146772 852881 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :PAL (most of Europe) uses 25 FPS < 1342146775 233882 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :most film uses 24 < 1342146778 238388 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, that much? Aren't movies generally 24 FPS? < 1342146778 437242 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :60 fields per second < 1342146785 305935 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Yes. < 1342146787 16449 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :interlaced half-frames < 1342146790 725819 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, how do you even properly scale that when broadcasting TV? < 1342146805 568507 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: In Europe, they speed up the film. < 1342146806 36736 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tbh I call it 50 and 60 fps < 1342146806 276012 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, when airing a movie < 1342146827 640987 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, 24 Hz to 25 Hz is done by speeding up and adjusting audio pitch < 1342146828 125501 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could say it's only half the lines but I think it's still a frame < 1342146828 324113 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: In the US, they use a pulldown pattern, so not all frames are shown for the exact same amount of time. < 1342146837 179882 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just that every other frame is offset by half a frame < 1342146838 757743 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, wouldn't that be jerky? < 1342146850 9488 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Slightly. It's hard to notice. < 1342146851 335235 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how relevant. < 1342146852 681760 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what do DVD players do then on a typical PC? < 1342146862 217904 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's something you can train yourself to notice and then be insufferable about < 1342146875 439038 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what really bugs me these days are the TVs that do frame interpolation < 1342146879 346256 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :vorpal: they probably just randomly vsync < 1342146887 847724 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah yeah < 1342146889 597078 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Deinterlace and inverse pulldown. Also ignore the pulldown pattern if it's soft pulldown. < 1342146898 668822 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Is "Television remote" redundant? < 1342146899 30750 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was reading about an upcoming south park game based on LOTR, and they were talking about using pulldown pattern to convert the walk cycle from 24fps to 30fps or whatever it is < 1342146905 38532 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, sorry? < 1342146913 112674 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :deinterlace I understood < 1342146913 725296 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :30 FPS content looks "cheaper" than 24 FPS < 1342146914 615696 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :the rest? < 1342146915 618201 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(soft pulldown is where the video is stored 24fps, but with instructions on how to render it in 30fps) < 1342146918 515394 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :because video is cheaper than film < 1342146929 18296 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :an arbitrary association which has become entrenched in the way we consume content < 1342146930 963719 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, eh, I prefer 60 FPS, it looks smoother < 1342146933 754081 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Inverse pulldown is where you match the pulldown pattern and pull out the 24fps content. < 1342146945 537015 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so these interpolating TVs make everything look like a Mexican soap opera < 1342146956 336347 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in the words of Jack Donaghy) < 1342146956 691765 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, you can see the difference between watching a game on youtube and playing it yourself at 60 FPS, and I don't just mean the compression < 1342146957 630241 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Except shittier. < 1342146960 847050 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: that's not what I mean < 1342146964 915985 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, ah < 1342146966 876662 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not talking about which one looks better objectively < 1342146970 575641 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :or even subjectively < 1342146975 198584 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :vorpal: games were lucky < 1342146983 731632 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they started at 60 fps < 1342146984 360039 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't actually care about the interpolation (much), except that they give you artifacts. < 1342146998 394695 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm talking about the association formed from having lots of low production quality content at 30+ FPS and lots of high-budget or "artsy" content at 24 FPS < 1342146998 964342 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr, you can easily go higher with most games though < 1342147000 379263 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the "more frames = better" mentality set in < 1342147001 892607 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the hardware can do it < 1342147007 811165 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr, anyway consoles generally do 30 FPS < 1342147009 527638 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :james cameron also complained about this < 1342147010 835823 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :on a computer, sure < 1342147021 658901 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :vorpal: before 3d they did 60 fps < 1342147024 950343 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :because 3D films don't really work at 24 FPS, but anything above looks "cheap" to at least some viewers < 1342147034 876862 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr, I know people who have 120 Hz monitors. Generally for usage with 3D glasses < 1342147050 63614 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Older consoles actually did 60fps, and emitted an invalid TV signal to do progressive scan at half the vertical resolution. < 1342147066 678796 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, how comes that worked at all? < 1342147068 900803 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :also huh < 1342147077 9404 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :SNES does progressive scan actually < 1342147087 229556 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Did you see Simon Marlow's concurrent and parallel Haskell slides? < 1342147093 946237 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only ever played SNES in emulator < 1342147097 948993 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because TVs aren't strict validating devices, they're just NTSC/PAL decoders driving a CRT. < 1342147104 499572 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :essentially they just ignored all the bullshit timing you had to do to have the lines offset half the frames < 1342147127 777059 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and generated the same timing every frame < 1342147133 473063 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup. < 1342147142 404156 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: They're good. < 1342147143 843338 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, surely you can't get 60 FPS on the TV from that though? < 1342147148 981296 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: http://community.haskell.org/~simonmar/slides/cadarache2012/ < 1342147149 756659 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Sure you can. < 1342147160 178298 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: They're drawing 60 fields per second... < 1342147163 981344 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :vorpal: well, TVs are 60 fps < 1342147172 601962 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1342147182 67896 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you offset your timing on half the frames < 1342147195 433640 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: And if you've hacked the timing somewhat so they draw the lines of each field at the same place, you're basically doing 60 frames per second. < 1342147203 493299 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, wouldn't there be problems with the time the phosphor stayed lit between 60 FPS and 25 FPS (for PAL) < 1342147212 19566 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which gets you 480 lines instead of the real value of 240 lines < 1342147221 477662 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: PAL systems did 50fps instead. < 1342147226 344047 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1342147230 44402 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, still < 1342147232 578778 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :SNES etc were progressive scan so they actually do a 240 line picture < 1342147240 87804 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can see the black between the lines < 1342147241 911994 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: And the answer is "yes". < 1342147244 419704 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the resolution of PAL then < 1342147253 279226 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, oh? So there were issues? < 1342147265 662283 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Just somewhat weird brightnesses, IIRC. < 1342147271 725901 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1342147281 641399 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: It's not like drawing on the phosphor too often actually causes *major* issues. < 1342147291 509448 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fair enough < 1342147308 945032 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :irl most tvs were so fuzzy it didn't really matter anyways :D < 1342147321 370229 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what about it fading too slow when the screen changes though? Ghost images and such I mean < 1342147332 638718 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Older PAL consoles just did 240 lines... < 1342147332 839446 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr, hardware antialias! < 1342147350 287885 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :afaik CRTs fade really fast actually < 1342147354 983640 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, and usual PAL is how many lines? < 1342147360 292920 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: IIRC, the phosphor fades really fast. < 1342147374 535718 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so fast that most of the picture you see is actually just a residual image on your retina < 1342147375 828030 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :then why does 25 FPS even work < 1342147383 692581 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's how the light gun works < 1342147388 366626 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: They're scanning it 50/60 times per second and interlacing because they needed to scan that fast to not blink. < 1342147392 632353 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr, ah right yes < 1342147408 985535 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, forgot the interlacing < 1342147438 795706 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :light gun watches for a change in brightness < 1342147445 940793 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, anyway I found CRT computer monitors painful to use at less than 75 Hz < 1342147454 773392 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and even then they are not nice to use < 1342147463 150382 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :once that happens you know the timing and can figure out which pixel you've been aiming at :D < 1342147488 982641 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1342147506 338398 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: PAL is usually 576i. < 1342147523 210765 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Real Programmers use an analog vector generator with a vector CRT < 1342147539 482859 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :so doing 240p... right someone said they left black lines above < 1342147543 481482 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup. < 1342147565 253904 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :what generation of consoles stopped doing this craziness? < 1342147588 961620 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ps2 i think < 1342147605 27049 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is that in nintendo < 1342147614 293106 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :gamecube? < 1342147618 306371 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't remember < 1342147624 22577 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :had enough fillrate to render in like 640x480 :D < 1342147624 791487 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :technically ps2 in nintendo is gamecube < 1342147633 589064 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah gamecube is interlaced < 1342147647 770497 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1342147656 414231 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, pretty sure it was PS2/GC/Xbox. < 1342147669 356998 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :gamecube can do component out.. i had component out on mine... < 1342147671 957041 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :did they go 30 FPS then too? < 1342147684 291885 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :or wait I guess not all modern console games are 30 FPS, only most < 1342147689 494030 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mostly, yeah. < 1342147693 397061 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but when i traded it in.. the bitch at that store treated it like garbage < 1342147697 5540 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I would be surprising if fighting games weren't 60 FPS < 1342147703 992612 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :surprised* < 1342147709 352593 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: The screen's not 60 FPS, though. < 1342147713 995448 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, oh? < 1342147715 154983 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually even PSX can do interlaced < 1342147719 20117 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there's no point < 1342147719 617458 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It just redraws 60 times per second. < 1342147723 200117 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr, PSX? < 1342147728 587468 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :play station 1 < 1342147731 893882 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1342147734 347250 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :PS1 you mean then? < 1342147742 499727 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :its also known as psx for some reason < 1342147744 384166 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :usually it's abreviated PSX < 1342147748 729971 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for some reason yeah < 1342147758 561774 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what is the refresh rate for the screen then? < 1342147776 577059 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: 60 Hz. < 1342147798 877315 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :incidentally psone was a re-release of ps1/psx .. a pointless thing really < 1342147807 750249 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, doesn't that equate to 60 FPS max possible? < 1342147822 853184 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't actually do anything new, just comes in a case which is cheaper to manufacture < 1342147838 967891 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: But if you're actually drawing a standard TV signal you only get 60 fields per second. < 1342147839 363071 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :iti: and probably combined all the chips together :D < 1342147864 532500 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, with a field you mean? < 1342147871 576637 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact I wonder if the snes can do interlace < 1342147902 870007 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, also which TV signal standard is this < 1342147915 23575 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: You get the same amount of *motion* with 240p60 and 480i30, BTW. < 1342147931 539021 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhu < 1342147939 52608 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not that you get only 30 full frames per second with 480i30. < 1342147939 251147 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what do you mean with motion here < 1342147952 721695 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You get 60 frames with every other line chopped out. < 1342147958 671810 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know what interlaced is yes < 1342147982 386133 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :the US standard did 29.something right? < 1342147984 45919 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :not 30 < 1342147988 694992 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :29.97 I think < 1342147997 174158 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :_features_ of the psone as listed on wikipedia is: added protection against the use of modchips, a lack of the original PlayStation's parallel and serial ports, < 1342147999 724839 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it is close enough < 1342148008 574247 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, when we switched to color we divided the framerate by 1001 to prevent interference between the color signal and audio signal. < 1342148010 929457 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :though over time you should run into some issues < 1342148013 45319 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's just some thing they introduced later to deal with some timing issue on some shitty TVs < 1342148019 828693 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. Not 1001. < 1342148027 332541 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's 30000/1001 frames per second, though. < 1342148054 469564 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: No, it's color. < 1342148066 953474 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :irl stuff like SNES probably generates like 29.9fps < 1342148069 407293 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also psone has an external power supply! < 1342148079 394586 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: Part of the color signal would interfere with the audio if you stuck at 30fps. < 1342148086 380176 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it actually only draws 524 lines per 2 frames instead of 525 lines < 1342148094 432609 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(IIRC) < 1342148098 972661 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, why didn't you just go PAL? < 1342148106 229378 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: PAL didn't exist. < 1342148110 562295 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah okay < 1342148138 68567 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :PAL was invented to overcome NTSC's shortcomings. < 1342148149 685205 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there's even a 60hz version of pal < 1342148155 729037 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :10 years after NTSC color came into being. < 1342148159 619093 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: Yeah. Brazil uses it. < 1342148198 114098 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, then why didn't you switch < 1342148221 725979 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh the N in NTSC stands for "national", how typical < 1342148222 293608 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how did pal work again < 1342148222 949230 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: PAL was *invented* 10 years after NTSC color was *adopted*. < 1342148236 902116 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :invert colors for every 2nd line or something like that no? < 1342148240 305403 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, fair enough, what did Europe do during those 10 years? < 1342148258 633703 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Black-and-white. < 1342148261 871113 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1342148274 184101 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Regular color broadcasts in Europe started in 1967. < 1342148282 541626 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(UK and West Germany, specifically) < 1342148303 403528 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, how typical of US to put "national" in a name. It is like how the UK puts "Royal" in names < 1342148310 866056 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :At this point, NTSC color was 14 years old. < 1342148409 726515 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, are the NTSC and PAL greyscale signals compatible? < 1342148411 754777 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess not < 1342148422 977073 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :but why did they have separate systems there before then < 1342148442 919377 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Actually, the only differences are the framerates and the frequency allocation. < 1342148448 709564 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1342148454 934639 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are only so many ways to do analog monochromatic TV < 1342148460 550838 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :why did the framerates end up being different before? < 1342148475 57040 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: different researchers working in different countries settled on different arbitrary choices < 1342148477 250432 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The framerates were based on the AC frequencies. < 1342148483 450583 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1342148489 341495 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, why was that important though < 1342148489 714534 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because if you don't sync to AC on an old analog tv the picture dances :D < 1342148496 5550 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :was solved later on but still < 1342148499 653971 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1342148502 428099 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Because it was available as a cheap oscillator. < 1342148511 31098 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it ruined video forever? < 1342148524 205369 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ie they figured how to do actually good power supplies :D) < 1342148567 282053 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr, switching? < 1342148572 809190 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunn < 1342148573 807903 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1342148619 229877 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :also France had their own system right < 1342148621 674301 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :forgot the name of it < 1342148636 240381 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :secam < 1342148646 682415 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: The only differences you can have with analog black-and-white video are refresh rates, frequency allocations, and whether a low signal is white or black... < 1342148649 122801 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :essentially pal but with a different color scheme < 1342148658 374613 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1342148659 902088 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :All of these have been different in different countries. < 1342148665 110556 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(FM color, alternating the color component on every line) < 1342148735 594659 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the format of the audio signal of PAL? Plain FM? < 1342148740 767059 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :AM < 1342148747 814555 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :really, heh < 1342148762 442349 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: "Depends". < 1342148762 838778 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually quadrature amplitude modulation or something < 1342148766 901327 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would expect worse sound quality then < 1342148772 757241 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, oh? < 1342148778 111778 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: There is not a single PAL OTA standard. < 1342148785 75848 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: There are dozens. < 1342148786 210970 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :with amplitude of modulation = saturation and phase of modulation = hue < 1342148793 119640 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, as used in Sweden < 1342148882 394715 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, real part of the color signal = red - luminance and imaginary part of color signal = blue - luminance < 1342148883 860049 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think < 1342148888 885676 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, thing is I many years ago built a radio receiver from a kit (circuit board and components provided, solder yourself kind of deal) and managed to get the audio of one of the Swedish TV channels when tweaking the tuning knob. I think it was an FM receiver. < 1342148893 455386 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Seems it was FM. < 1342148906 21203 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that explains that < 1342148928 979294 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah TV audio is over FM < 1342148944 195035 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. Seems it was almost always FM. < 1342148951 492 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr, you said it was "quadrature amplitude modulation or something" above :P < 1342148951 960624 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :France used AM. < 1342148963 414824 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And positive video modulation... < 1342148977 602553 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :quadrotor amplitude modulation < 1342148996 949488 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, meaning? < 1342149011 861487 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Low signals are white, high signals are black. < 1342149023 835628 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes sense < 1342149031 395684 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is probably the most natural way to do it < 1342149037 508941 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :err wait I misread < 1342149043 781553 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is NOT the most natural way to do it < 1342149049 657363 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The exact opposite of what's used in every other system that survived past the 50s. < 1342149055 887201 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, why would anyone do that, is there some technical advantage of it? < 1342149064 229371 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No technical advantage at all. < 1342149084 84614 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :any technical disadvantage though? < 1342149087 935918 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :vorpal: oh, QAM is for the color < 1342149089 837556 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not that I know of. < 1342149092 173797 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :french system has to be different < 1342149116 91692 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I guess at least one of them needs to invert the signal controlling the power to the cathode ray though? < 1342149123 181536 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The UK also used to use positive modulation. < 1342149133 329210 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :They shut off broadcasts on that signal ages ago though. < 1342149140 820454 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was that called? < 1342149147 970614 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :System A. < 1342149168 97496 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :catchy < 1342149192 467950 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, which type of modulation needs to invert the signal compared to the cathode ray tube power though? < 1342149197 497855 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Dunno. < 1342149202 497743 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :one would have to < 1342149205 393577 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :inverted signals make sense no? < 1342149214 348108 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ie high signal = black < 1342149263 886747 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr, the case of high = no beam hitting the phosphor < 1342149269 826159 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :maaaybe? < 1342149296 472945 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a good reason < 1342149302 787220 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1342149305 581688 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if high signal = white < 1342149313 361820 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, makes sense < 1342149316 344131 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you correct for signal amplitude? < 1342149332 673417 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure what you mean < 1342149349 319563 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :suppose you receive the signal at half the amplitude you were expecting < 1342149372 679846 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr, I presume you need to use transistors or similar to drive the high voltage to the cathode ray anyway < 1342149382 129496 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, you need 0 to 1 < 1342149386 314530 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you got 0 to 0.5 < 1342149393 1907 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you could just adjust the strength of it there < 1342149408 723586 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but you need to guess the amplification factor < 1342149422 369643 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know how TVs used to have all those knobs on the front < 1342149425 276194 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :won't you need to do that in the other case too? < 1342149428 36556 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you have to fiddle with them to get a good picture < 1342149431 618668 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no see < 1342149432 130666 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yeah they used to have lot of knobs < 1342149438 225624 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you make black the highest level < 1342149441 22989 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn kids these days don't know about knobs < 1342149453 985364 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then at least once per scanline you have a sync < 1342149466 539389 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, oh come on, I had a TV with lots of knobs until like 7 years ago. < 1342149469 487979 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, from the 80s < 1342149473 893110 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which is encoded as hyper-black) < 1342149488 984891 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr, surely you could just do a similar white sync instead? < 1342149490 668446 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: You actually can tell what the amplitude is. < 1342149516 513561 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i remember one of my first tv's had sliders for colour, brightness, contrast < 1342149519 25046 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: Because all signals are relative to the absolute low point of the sync signal, and you have a period of regular black after the sync. < 1342149519 981730 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :vorpal: would be harder on TVs :D < 1342149536 582880 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that you could make the pictures larger by turning up some of these sliders < 1342149560 811231 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know a better word than slider < 1342149575 674406 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, since you're guaranteed to have the lowest possible level at least once per scanline (sync), then you can easily guess the signal amplitude < 1342149581 927553 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you use negative signaling < 1342149588 855776 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Colour [-----[]-----------] < 1342149619 257859 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I remember our tv having settings for that, but you changed them digitally with the remote < 1342149629 551641 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and irl you could just make everything worse mostly < 1342149631 580690 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: good call on "TV remote", by the way < 1342149640 527076 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :default adjust was fine < 1342149642 795482 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: worse = fun < 1342149658 722057 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :when i was a small person i took a magnet to the front of our television < 1342149661 475829 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the red would really bleed onto everything < 1342149661 676025 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: You're also sure to have the lowest ordinary signal level a bit higher above that. < 1342149664 708922 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and my parents were too cheap to buy another one < 1342149670 103491 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so for 10 years we had wrong colors on everything < 1342149683 535361 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: That's why I made sure not to buy discount parents. < 1342149688 424496 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_- < 1342149696 137507 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'a big up-front cost, but you're stuck with them for life. < 1342149702 785100 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: well, yeah you're sure to have some black too < 1342149704 11589 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, must have been a really strong one then. Usually such things clear themselves pretty quickly < 1342149714 611860 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :or you can hit the degauss thingy, at least on computer CRTs < 1342149722 149908 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that came later < 1342149732 635143 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Yeah, most TVs don't have degaussing coils. < 1342149736 278099 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think tv repairmen could degauss a tv too < 1342149744 677016 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. It's not hard to do. < 1342149761 777864 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, but even then magnets usually don't leave lasting problems < 1342149766 92757 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :only temporary ones < 1342149795 222020 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Degauss :-( < 1342149798 33717 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION nostalg
< 1342149818 185476 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :every time you deguass a small man resembling gauss can be seen fleeing < 1342149871 649735 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://img.spikedmath.com/comics/504-scumbag-gauss.png < 1342149957 919701 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wonder how much time is left until an asshole proves p!=np < 1342149991 551685 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway im killing the topic... >.< < 1342149996 517751 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, according to wikipedia the "thunk" when turing on the TV comes from automatic degaussing, don't know if that is correct though < 1342150008 362301 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Not all TVs do that. :) < 1342150016 501666 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :never seen one that didn't < 1342150040 11905 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric : madbr: Because all signals are relative to the absolute low point of the sync signal, and you have a period of regular black after the sync. < 1342150040 411507 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric : vorpal: would be harder on TVs :D < 1342150054 315794 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric : right, since you're guaranteed to have the lowest possible level at least once per scanline (sync), then you can easily guess the signal amplitude < 1342150054 679499 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric : if you use negative signaling < 1342150076 601603 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: he had to leave *something* for other people to do < 1342150108 922837 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah if you use positive signaling you need at least a bit of white to figure out your signal range < 1342150126 168239 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or you could try to guess it from the difference in level between hblank and black < 1342150137 597570 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, a whole wikipedia page for "List of things named after Carl Friedrich Gauss" < 1342150151 83116 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :/gaus/ < 1342150342 123569 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gauss Facts seems indicated at this point < 1342150354 739324 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.gaussfacts.com/ < 1342150377 745964 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin NICK :Kronos < 1342150385 917355 :Kronos!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin NICK :copumpkin < 1342150505 354534 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :comex! < 1342150506 305646 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er. < 1342150508 378060 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :copumpkin! < 1342150514 639653 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin PRIVMSG #esoteric :yo < 1342150517 565383 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin PRIVMSG #esoteric :comex is cool too < 1342150524 600958 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd be more excited about him than myself < 1342150536 274851 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1342150540 14891 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Never mind about you, then. < 1342150543 656198 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :comex: Are you the dual of mex? < 1342150555 265169 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :copprumpkin regex < 1342151876 884052 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`log comex < 1342151896 101212 :comex!~comex@ec2-23-22-255-183.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: maybe < 1342151900 961702 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahh! < 1342151909 629260 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1342151997 392161 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm what do you do for android an java package names if you don't own a domain? < 1342152117 287651 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :cx.goatse.MyShittyApp < 1342153001 258359 :ogrom!~del@gprs-inet-65-99.elisa.ee JOIN :#esoteric < 1342153683 424499 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1342153731 254398 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, oh come on < 1342154568 795464 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :jabberwock.vorpal.package < 1342154597 342784 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i know the right answer < 1342154610 866638 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you create a ytmnd for your project < 1342154645 245926 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: You should get a domain name. < 1342154665 407689 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is Alabama a country yet? < 1342154775 189889 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes it's a third world country < 1342154953 368496 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Huh. < 1342154959 39657 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :iso646.h < 1342155039 604298 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That and some digraphs, and you can write some really weird C. < 1342155121 360299 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :int main(int argc, char *argv<::>) <% return not printf("Yes, really, this is C.??/n"); %> < 1342155365 991705 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :main(argc, argv) char *argv<::>) <% return not printf("Yes, really, this is C.??/n"); %> < 1342155401 745599 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think that'll work. IIRC C99 gets rid of K&R-style declarations. < 1342155412 746182 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And digraphs are C99. < 1342155445 94974 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : // Will the next line be executed????????????????/ < 1342155445 568042 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : a++; < 1342155514 657628 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh. < 1342155518 322408 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Digraphs are C99? < 1342155522 31806 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Yes. < 1342155530 892562 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Oh, sorry, I'm wrong. < 1342155532 801338 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Weren't digraphs a thing invented for really old machines? < 1342155535 418681 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: '94 addon. < 1342155540 315140 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1342155551 482706 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, iso646.h *is* C99. < 1342155571 581323 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Digraphs were also invented because trigraphs (a C90 thing) were ridiculous. < 1342155579 587319 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/#include /#define not !/ < 1342155601 147071 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I confused digraphs and trigraphs. < 1342155612 849571 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :main(argc, argv) char *argv??(??); ??< return not printf("So much uglier!??/n"); ??> < 1342155652 89635 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Trigraphs are the ones processed basically via sed before anything else. < 1342155663 106922 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whereas digraphs are synonyms for tokens. < 1342155686 522385 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1342156182 903101 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they were invented because ebcdic was missing some characters no? < 1342156202 252851 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it's because some keyboard layouts make those characters hard to type < 1342156284 244228 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Tcl is formally just as powerful since everything is a string, but it is usually not practical to have Tcl code take Tcl scripts apart and modified, since there are few facilities available out of the box for handling Tcl scripts at a higher level than as a string of characters (there are packages for higher level handling, however)." < 1342156284 884335 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and some national variants of ISO 646 don't have them < 1342156286 703731 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sigh* < 1342156346 552733 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1342156410 232047 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: looking up ISO 646 < 1342156416 758251 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the hell is this dinosaur < 1342156443 818357 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's ASCII and the various other national 7-bit codes based on it < 1342156494 48960 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ISO 8859 > ISO 646 < 1342156525 156836 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes but where the heck was that char set used < 1342156525 401116 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1342156545 707093 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ASCII? it was pretty popular bro < 1342156555 409760 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you've probably heard of it before < 1342156570 120450 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: You mean restricted UTF-8? < 1342156574 436662 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :u madbr o? < 1342156582 446001 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no I mean iso646 < 1342156602 284295 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : [ISO 646 is] ASCII and the various other national 7-bit codes based on it < 1342156680 408425 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so in ISO 646 you have 7-bit characters, with 82 positions fixed (the "invariant set") and others varying by language < 1342156698 928838 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :in ISO 8859 you have 8-bit characters, with 128 positions fixed (corresponding to all of ASCII) and the other 128 varying by language < 1342156726 245423 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Incidentally, all valid Tcl scripts are also valid Tcl lists. < 1342156730 415173 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and now we have Unicode, which is the same everywhere, with various different standards for representing Unicode characters as sequences of bytes < 1342156800 638110 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, but not necessarily easy-to-process lists: semicolons become part of elements and newlines are ignored when viewing a script as a list, right? < 1342156817 822712 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Bleh, probably. < 1342156821 310494 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but what sort of real system uses iso 646 < 1342156830 899131 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Tcl metaprogramming eventually gets kinda weird. < 1342156835 122948 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are huffing glue or something < 1342156922 799798 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yet Lisp metaprogramming seems like it's simpler < 1342156932 979596 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: PARENTHESES LOLOLOLLOLOLLOLLOLOLOLOL < 1342156947 319392 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: That's because it is a bit simpler. < 1342156978 199133 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So why am I looking at Tcl? I think the whole starpack and Tk and event loop thing is drawing me in < 1342156998 564731 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dunno. It is a neat language, at least... < 1342157019 305832 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :iso646 looks like a pie in the sky standard some idiot came up with "because ascii is to US centric" < 1342157064 878996 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, people outside the USA don't deserve computers anyway < 1342157077 623094 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :they should be happy with the free bombs we drop on them < 1342157103 974853 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: *free freedom bombs < 1342157117 901843 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO/IEC_646#National_variants so basically madbr you're arguing that all of these are fictional or just never used by anyone? < 1342157135 165007 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :note the various different national standards bodies which created each one < 1342157138 94023 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're not fictional but I'm looking around for uses < 1342157142 784143 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :just "some idiot" right < 1342157162 671203 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :god you annoy me < 1342157192 61664 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"That's why foreign standardizers crafted up national variants of ASCII like the German DIN 66003 which my first CP/M computer (a Sharp MZ-731) used in 1984 to communicate with its daisy wheel printer or the Danish DS 2089 mentioned by Bjarne Stroustrup in § 6.5.3 of his C++ history." < 1342157197 192346 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1342157199 69554 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://czyborra.com/charsets/iso646.html < 1342157215 787721 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that's the one I saw < 1342157224 788626 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :trying to find another < 1342157225 52092 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean this stuff is all much older than the Internet < 1342157231 368197 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so don't expect to find much of it on the Internet < 1342157238 275969 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably much older than DOS even < 1342157262 252293 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then why did they have to put trigraphs in C < 1342157277 873759 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :because characters like { } aren't in the ISO 646 invariant set! < 1342157292 884359 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :they don't exist in all national variants, or they might be at different code points < 1342157297 61107 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are they in the covariant or the contravariant set? < 1342157302 421361 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_- < 1342157328 345469 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the section "ISO-646: First attempts to internationalize the 7bit code" in that document < 1342157330 393124 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Good enough < 1342157331 312560 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :explains the problem precisely < 1342157336 690719 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about digraphs < 1342157345 647682 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which they put in in like 1994 < 1342157365 723041 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably some people were still using these codes in 1994 < 1342157505 471784 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :TIL that the BCD in EBCDIC stands for BCD < 1342157583 673231 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: it takes years to upgrade legacy systems and it also takes years to get standards through the process < 1342157597 113267 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fine for trigraphs < 1342157608 299084 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but why did they have to add digraphs after that < 1342157614 501897 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :as a saner alternative to trigraphs < 1342157614 700881 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in 1994 < 1342157637 617313 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :1994 is like PCs and amigas < 1342157640 57469 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and macs < 1342157644 719885 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly PCs < 1342157648 423428 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: Dude, we live in a world where UTF-8 is still not ubiquitous. < 1342157650 172375 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a bunch of legacy systems < 1342157658 425914 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is the typical mind fallacy < 1342157660 359208 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was *3* when UTF-8 was invented. < 1342157670 868926 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in 1994 it was DOS's weird ass character set < 1342157675 849222 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :vs latin01 < 1342157678 415359 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you assume that the machine you had on your desk at home represents the typical computer in the world at that time < 1342157681 249769 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was <3! < 1342157681 725239 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :vs latin-1 rather < 1342157683 562585 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION <3 UTF-8
< 1342157690 534831 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ignoring the huge numbers of old mainframes, industrial control systems, etc < 1342157695 804600 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :vs whatever messed up sets the Macs had < 1342157701 440493 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :all of which are 8 bit < 1342157704 27493 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it takes that friggin' long for legacy charsets to die die die die, it certainly makes sense for ISO-646 based charsets to still be in use in '94. < 1342157715 710397 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it's perfectly reasonable to want to use C on some of them. < 1342157723 770928 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but they already had a solution (trigraphs) < 1342157726 422897 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :these shiny but useless PC toys were probably not at the forefront of the minds of the people designing C94 < 1342157731 716139 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except trigraphs sucked. < 1342157766 139878 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Trigraphs are essentially a sed process before you hit the tokeniser. < 1342157779 211040 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :they apply inside string literals and such < 1342157780 891908 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kinda nasty < 1342157799 836233 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Digraphs are just synonyms for certain tokens. < 1342157865 457419 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah there are many people who would laugh at you for asserting that 1994 was "PCs and amigas" < 1342157878 43669 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you think was used to do real work back then < 1342157891 110427 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah well I hope their lines of crummy servers died < 1342157911 422595 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(most of them did) < 1342157924 819441 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You think this now because you know what survived. < 1342157938 756337 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Namely, the shittiest platform around at the time. < 1342157961 358186 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shittiest? < 1342157968 21122 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: must destroy what you don't understand, eh? < 1342158005 679501 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no I'm pissed at them for taking a piss on C's tokenizer < 1342158009 145697 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: The IBM PC is perhaps the single shittiest platform to have ever been notable. < 1342158036 249527 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure the macs compared favorably < 1342158037 932689 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the major redeeming feature of the PC platform is that it's remarkably open < 1342158058 281214 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :which (as we're seeing today with smartphones and tablets) is not an inevitable property of successful products < 1342158063 518439 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but rather some kind of historical accident < 1342158070 615787 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically IBM wasn't paying enough attention to lock it down < 1342158082 702563 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's currently a 64-bit extension of a 32-bit extension of a 16-bit revision of an 8-bit CPU inspired by the *original* integrated circuit CPU. Which was 4-bit, BTW. < 1342158110 626065 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Did you see http://www.yesodweb.com/blog/2012/07/classy-prelude ? < 1342158114 614406 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: lol you're still thinking about "PC vs Macs" < 1342158132 631847 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: still strangled the itanium to death < 1342158134 481914 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"as soon as Hackage comes back up" < 1342158135 17698 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1342158140 962177 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like i missed some drama < 1342158172 52255 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: Quality and popularity have 0 correlation. Accept it, for this is the most fundamental truth of the world. < 1342158180 256818 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wouldn't say 0 < 1342158184 411649 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's pretty weak < 1342158204 600019 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :x86 has some nice features < 1342158216 94987 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"PC platform" ≠ x86, also < 1342158227 445809 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :aside from the randomization of the instruction set < 1342158234 363706 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and low number of registers < 1342158246 898166 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :people always fixate on the ISA but this is one of the less interesting choices made in designing a platform < 1342158288 556853 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The ISA is more-or-less just the consequence of backwards compatibility decisions made on day one. < 1342158303 935380 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :all the people trying to design VLIW stuff? failed < 1342158330 267515 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only the better RISC architectures hold a candle < 1342158357 272790 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it was designed so you could trivially machine translate 8080/8008 code to it) < 1342158385 155708 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah and then they carefully designed a processor to get away from that < 1342158390 826023 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ended up with the i432 < 1342158531 156709 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :does the ISA really matter that much once you're doing out of order execution and register renaming? < 1342158590 624894 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does, but not as much as several other shitty, shitty design decisions in the platform. < 1342158601 36353 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Figure 1: The BIOS. < 1342158643 207641 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is binary technically redundant? :D < 1342158728 846372 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok i was wrong its not binary < 1342158735 83948 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dunno how i got that idea in my head.. basic < 1342158760 238511 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what I'm saying is that, yes PCs have lot of baggage, but then if you look at the competing personal computers from back then, they had worse flaws < 1342158783 444451 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do you think we're talking about personal computers < 1342158799 549024 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what the PC is < 1342158805 647056 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's how it took the market < 1342158833 334770 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Imagine if the C64 had evolved like the IBM PC. ... In '94, it would be the shittiest platform. < 1342158889 1342 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it would eventually have ended up with the 16 bit version of the 6502 < 1342158907 971378 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well we were talking about how trigraphs are necessary for programming in C on certain platforms < 1342158915 991615 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you seem to have assumed those platforms are "personal computers" < 1342158925 940599 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is extremely far from the truth < 1342158941 714409 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :aiui even programs for personal computers would often be compiled on bigger machines, in that era < 1342158957 922495 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: never heard of that one < 1342159036 61446 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: I didn't think that was *too* common by the 90s. < 1342159053 927240 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Certainly it was the case earlier. < 1342159318 98411 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah as flawed as the PC was, it was probably the best of the personal computers < 1342159319 558708 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :IMHO < 1342159387 336425 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes the personal computer is the best personal computer. < 1342159388 448597 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree. < 1342159393 601261 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing else could be as good of a personal computer. < 1342159400 481029 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_- < 1342159402 594075 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1342159407 189956 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :jezz < 1342159450 671104 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :redundant acronyms am i rite < 1342159451 32715 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :raucous laughter here < 1342159492 316106 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think redundant acronyms represents a full survey of the absurdity unfolding < 1342159513 785692 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just choose to interpret PC as literally "personal computer" < 1342159523 801004 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what other interpretations are possible? < 1342159527 981304 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of "machine running Windows" or whatever it's supposed to mean nowadays. < 1342159552 999817 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :the whole "PC vs. Mac" thing... < 1342159557 785893 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but Macs are PCs! < 1342159576 796472 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"IBM PC" is a computer platform < 1342159585 989135 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"It's not that I'm incapable of understanding what you meant, I just choose to misinterpret regardless of however it derails the conversation because it makes me feel better about something" < 1342159590 25029 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :meaning it's a set of specifications for a processor and how that processor interacts with peripherals < 1342159604 392356 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :stuff like, here is your bus, here is your BIOS and the functions it provides, here's how you boot < 1342159622 16313 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"PC" today would refer to a large and evolving collection of such specifications < 1342159622 258620 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see. I must have arrived late to the party. < 1342159637 578970 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: is that a quote from somewhere? < 1342159656 136381 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1342159667 221806 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: The term �WC� has been suggested for a computer running Windows. < 1342159688 487488 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION pretends to be an ignorant American. "I DON'T GET IT"
< 1342159690 809315 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure to what extent "Macs are PCs" under that view < 1342159704 413511 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :EFI is part of the new world order for PCs, isn't it < 1342159725 377044 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can boot an EFI-aware Windows or Linux system on a Mac without Boot Camp, can't you? < 1342159729 246324 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps a PC is a machine which is not a Mac < 1342159741 980918 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: perhaps bonghits will fix your dichotomy < 1342159748 652427 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :EFI isn't an Apple thing. < 1342159755 225258 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know < 1342159758 200238 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, maybe Apple is the only one who uses it. < 1342159760 594129 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but Macs use it, no? < 1342159773 422690 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought other consumer hardware was EFI capable by now < 1342159797 242082 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :does EFI still boot in 16 bit mode? < 1342159818 403661 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought a PC was a computer designed for and in the price range of an individual person. < 1342159825 146224 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think kmc has taken a more specific definition the one I use. < 1342159826 103972 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Rather a lot of it is by now. < 1342159836 450632 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: I took the definition used by the preceeding discussion < 1342159837 331845 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: Technically, all x86 CPUs do. < 1342159840 274343 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :where "PC" was short for "IBM PC" < 1342159858 629777 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1342159862 694528 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: EFI firmware just switches to protected or long mode early in the boot sequence, before control is handed to the OS. < 1342159869 154823 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bastard < 1342159887 481810 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :was just thinking they were trying to find a way to avoid the 16 bit part in the boot < 1342159907 765689 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to eventually make 16bit support not necessary at all and eventually take it out of CPUs < 1342159921 961427 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :jenga principle < 1342159926 143375 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'll take the death of the BIOS first. < 1342159958 258488 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then a new generation of CPUs which are incompatible with EFI firmwares that start in 16-bit mode. < 1342160049 216164 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even then, you'd probably want those CPUs to be long mode only, so you don't have to think about virtual 8086 mode. < 1342160091 9085 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION goes back to his corner.
< 1342160246 836893 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :32bit mode on x86 still probably has a long life left tho < 1342160290 298722 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup. < 1342160316 241565 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And so we're stuck with a single platform with ludicrous floats. < 1342160325 821087 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :floats? < 1342160335 438343 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :x87. < 1342160351 821443 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't it slowly being replaced by SSE? < 1342160389 986119 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that it really matters, afaik for most cpus, x87 and SSE use the same ALUs anyways < 1342160395 662841 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-147-25.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1342160420 822292 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but x87 supports the wacky 80-bit float format < 1342160430 11951 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :if x87 went away you could drop the hardware to support that < 1342160434 31441 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure if that really matters < 1342160434 638005 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for intermediate computation only < 1342160442 363665 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can also load/store them < 1342160452 251910 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but anyway, you still need that hardware to produce the correct results < 1342160453 567582 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-147-25.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: The 32-bit x86 ABIs don't generally *permit* you to ignore x87. < 1342160466 81778 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-147-25.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Floats are passed on the x87 register-stack. < 1342160475 891310 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: yeah but that's actually rare < 1342160487 332898 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-147-25.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: x87 is technically available on x86_64 as well. < 1342160490 79467 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :afaik loading/storing 80bit floats is really slow < 1342160506 668787 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thought it was deprecated on x86-64 < 1342160510 526125 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: but the CPU still needs to support it < 1342160510 806834 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-147-25.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: Then passing floats is really slow? < 1342160518 690608 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-147-25.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: You pass floats on the x87 register stack. < 1342160524 829911 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-147-25.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which only knows about 80-bit floats. < 1342160532 292086 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: no I mean loading and saving them to ram < 1342160566 566792 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you can set a FPU control bit to make them act like 64-bit floats, iirc < 1342160579 915481 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: which almost works < 1342160588 803579 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(exponent range isn't affected) < 1342160594 499377 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not actually faster though < 1342160596 873093 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1342160600 841939 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-147-25.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :x87's weird ass floats at least gives you a funny property... < 1342160608 362893 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :except for / and sqrt < 1342160625 196132 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-147-25.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :x86 has, in effect, 64-bit integers, and has even when it was a 16-bit platform. < 1342160628 136802 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-147-25.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1342160647 854587 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh < 1342160670 974754 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1342160720 948003 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :x = x; < 1342160729 779999 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did someone make an esolang where that would be a useful thing to do? < 1342160734 933547 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It vaguely sounds familiar < 1342160736 994420 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it's called C++ < 1342160751 620879 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :?!?! < 1342160795 556597 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, if you have some bad / weird design < 1342160808 861862 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :then operator= might have some useful side effect < 1342160816 83888 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least a performance optimization < 1342160826 836238 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :mov eax, eax < 1342160832 640945 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :performance optimization? < 1342160848 575431 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like what? :D < 1342160877 777115 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :like rebalancing a data structure < 1342160917 201037 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how would you optimize that with 80 bit floats? :D < 1342160940 236632 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was responding to Sgeo_ < 1342160946 78592 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :who i do not believe was talking about 80 bit floats < 1342160976 741367 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-147-25.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo was talking about "x = x;", which could potentially have strange semantics in C++. < 1342160981 314627 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1342160986 649418 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :x += 2 an lvalue in C? < 1342160988 575096 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought it was an emoticon < 1342160989 478079 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :like it is in perl? < 1342161012 855702 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(x += 2) returns x+2 I think < 1342161018 461100 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1342161019 120806 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's an rvalue < 1342161021 446756 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but is it an lvalue? < 1342161033 359926 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-147-25.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :rvalue *as opposed to lvalue*, presumably. < 1342161046 53016 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless I guess it could return the address of x < 1342161052 431705 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should test it < 1342161115 981542 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :in perl it's perfectly reasonable to do ($hash{x} = $x = $arr[2] += 1) %= 256; < 1342161128 891097 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but that's perl < 1342161136 599912 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"perfectly reasonable" < 1342161173 727271 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which has some operators that can change behavior depending on if there's 0, 1 or 2+ values in an array < 1342161179 169191 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I'm not mistaken < 1342161189 993064 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :barely remember it tho < 1342161192 834879 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that I've seen. < 1342161209 562033 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :perl is far more consistent than it's given credit. < 1342161798 218152 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: oh, I guess you're talking about subroutines arguments, since they're stored in an array. < 1342161809 877493 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the same thing as having default values in other languages. < 1342162242 949508 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1342162257 352469 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello < 1342162259 929268 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 JOIN :#esoteric < 1342163003 723955 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1342163036 702190 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-147-25.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The fuck. Guess when Egyptian (well, its evolved descendant) died? < 1342163101 797606 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-147-25.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The 17th friggin' century. < 1342163356 64544 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://news.cnet.com/8301-1009_3-57471178-83/yahoos-password-leak-what-you-need-to-know-faq/ < 1342163370 80812 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're vulnerable to SQL injection, why expect them to store passwords sanely? < 1342163860 670462 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Assuming volatile int x that coincides with some memory-mapped device, 'x = x;' can be a reasonable thing to do. < 1342163888 452371 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't exactly think of an example offhand, but anyway. < 1342163933 305840 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-147-25.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could also be handy to pad your executable. :P < 1342163997 822258 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 QUIT :Quit: Radiateur < 1342164155 469775 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And to nitpick a little, 'x += 2' returns new value of x, not necessarily the same as 'x+2'. Consider e.g. unsigned char x = 255, in which case (assuming regular sizes) x+2 is likely to be 257 thanks to the default integer promotions, while x+=2 is likely to return 1. < 1342165732 16500 :myndzi!myndzi@c-67-168-184-168.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1342166589 450481 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@178235038077.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1342166885 265741 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :" The -- switch can be used to mark the end of switches; it may be needed if path is an unusual value such as -safe." < 1342166891 716950 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I feel safe now (no I don't) < 1342167218 864497 :nooga!~nooga@ip-46-250-173-30.ip.maverick.com.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1342167645 10799 :ogrom!~del@gprs-inet-65-99.elisa.ee QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1342168548 541353 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1342168580 828196 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1342169175 410008 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: General rule when doing stuff like foo * is to use foo -- * ;) < 1342169382 348708 :ogrom!~del@gprs-inet-65-121.elisa.ee JOIN :#esoteric < 1342170600 296086 :sirdancealot!~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1342170758 925310 :sirdancealot7!~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1342173656 422992 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-17.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1342173709 105828 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-17.access.telenet.be QUIT :Client Quit < 1342173716 174076 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-17.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1342176504 290293 :ogrom!~del@gprs-inet-65-121.elisa.ee QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1342176957 964988 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1342179427 771165 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1342180204 978273 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1342180293 406595 :derdon!~derdon@pD9E1C369.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1342184145 738928 :gkunno!~gkunno@cs181249127.pp.htv.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1342185122 343664 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@178235038077.elblag.vectranet.pl QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1342185431 353333 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :. < 1342185432 496022 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :.. < 1342185434 219280 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1342185436 893158 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :.... < 1342185440 320425 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :..... < 1342185454 508357 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Insert requisite combo breaker. < 1342185472 469880 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :success < 1342185477 619713 :gkunno!~gkunno@cs181249127.pp.htv.fi QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1342186884 548597 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :From elsewhere, though I think I recall an older similar thing few years back: http://www.legoturingmachine.org/ (it's < 1342186893 713071 :sirdancealot7!~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1342186898 292687 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forget what the bit in parens was trying to be. < 1342186899 673925 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway. < 1342187338 372817 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1342187590 947742 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1342187598 358579 :stanley!~stanley@unaffiliated/stanley QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1342187693 365043 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1342187762 617487 :stanley!~stanley@unaffiliated/stanley JOIN :#esoteric < 1342188108 288871 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1342188135 925763 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1342188157 303861 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Client Quit < 1342188175 939268 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1342188422 422595 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1342189673 104713 :aod!aod@078088239019.lubin.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1342189731 409798 :aod!aod@078088239019.lubin.vectranet.pl PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1342189838 66250 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi < 1342189843 503097 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`welcome aod < 1342189845 918458 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1342189853 675851 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :aod: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) < 1342189860 330462 :aod!aod@078088239019.lubin.vectranet.pl PART :#esoteric < 1342189866 707573 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good going. < 1342189980 467757 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@178235038077.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1342190262 228497 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-225-50.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1342190266 291202 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-147-25.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1342191155 915265 :ernesto1!~el_rey@190.199.231.176 JOIN :#esoteric < 1342191167 51293 :ernesto1!~el_rey@190.199.231.176 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1342191207 251627 :ernesto1!~el_rey@190.199.231.176 JOIN :#esoteric < 1342191414 190608 :ernesto1!~el_rey@190.199.231.176 PART :#esoteric < 1342191438 494515 :ernesto1!~el_rey@190.199.231.176 JOIN :#esoteric < 1342191715 484170 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :`welcome HackEgo < 1342191718 349748 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :HackEgo: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) < 1342191742 26209 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :He needed that . < 1342191746 606249 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least HackEgo didn't run away screaming. < 1342191753 956020 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unlike most other welcomees. < 1342191890 356191 :ernesto1!~el_rey@190.199.231.176 PART :#esoteric < 1342192007 740898 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1342192046 722133 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello! < 1342192050 123918 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've got bad news < 1342192141 108517 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOn your plane were snakes? < 1342192160 604081 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why the 0x7Fs? < 1342192170 361369 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't that DEL? < 1342192179 66745 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you incorrectly configured your terminal? < 1342192191 678584 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Am I seeing things? < 1342192217 315714 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm? < 1342192235 956189 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :You should see NOn your plane were snakes? < 1342192245 961556 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, the bad news is that I'm going to start volunteering in a charity shop < 1342192261 582338 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is that bad news? < 1342192267 5296 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :But my internet connection is very slow at the moment so I don't see what I type < 1342192273 889739 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti, I dunno < 1342192294 18632 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's not getting paid for it? < 1342192404 506894 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman, http://imgur.com/wAJFC < 1342192513 146065 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you see them now? < 1342192590 412607 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1342192599 726025 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No < 1342192608 427653 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You mean in that line you just said? < 1342192609 780186 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No < 1342192617 84046 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: Yes @17:15 < 1342192628 730924 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :They aren't there :) < 1342192706 531075 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :what. what the fuck it that what happens when you press ^A c ^[ on screen? < 1342192777 309230 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean ^A^[ < 1342192814 20149 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't that the copy mode by default? < 1342192827 532705 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Screen's built-in copy-paste thing. < 1342192843 438062 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1342192848 926757 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Select stuff by... several keys, and then paste with ^A^]. < 1342192888 398817 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :hjkl (or cursor keys) move, enter starts/ends selection, and there's other less useful keys too. < 1342192892 618861 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Aways now.) < 1342193103 319370 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :getting message: Welcome to hacker's treasure zoo - Column 13 Line 64(+1000) (160,64) < 1342193115 108853 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :was just kinda strange < 1342193695 5643 :ogrom!~del@gprs-inet-65-121.elisa.ee JOIN :#esoteric < 1342195701 932650 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1342195778 92400 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1342195830 983848 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1342196173 161345 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk JOIN :#esoteric < 1342196384 105423 :Lumpio-!~matti@62-113-182-248.bb.dnainternet.fi QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1342196431 557094 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1342196628 893878 :Lumpio-!~matti@62-113-182-248.bb.dnainternet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1342196710 948728 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1342196744 840733 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello < 1342196869 414934 :aloril!~aloril@84.249.126.153 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1342196989 864337 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1342197081 879068 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1342197131 712410 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: You still haven't told us why you think that your news is bad. < 1342197147 38786 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :BECAUSE I WILL LOSE MY SATURDAYS < 1342197176 658009 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jeez. No need to scream. < 1342197189 924160 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'M NOT SCREAMING < 1342197195 415872 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOW I'M SCREAMING < 1342197609 595542 :aloril!~aloril@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe7ef900-153.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1342198070 61884 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1342198134 140026 :aloril!~aloril@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe7ef900-153.dhcp.inet.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1342198519 331935 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Got a spam with the subject "i'm dying" < 1342198526 593993 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently referring to the laptop battery < 1342198538 98562 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1342198575 268746 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.reddit.com/r/spam < 1342198880 957442 :aloril!~aloril@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe7ef900-153.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1342199464 539932 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake JOIN :#esoteric < 1342199666 586686 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, will there be a new version of prelude-generalize to reflect the new version of comonad? < 1342199707 623038 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8 < 1342199850 26453 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1342199868 344902 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: Perhaps I may do that one day but then I should fix my other packages using comonads too < 1342199875 483667 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1342199891 21159 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does a comonad work? < 1342199924 631489 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :duplicate :: w a -> w (w a); extend :: (w a -> b) -> w a -> w b; extract :: w a -> a < 1342199957 742420 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :This lets you manipulate context without adding to it < 1342199962 677098 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Use context < 1342200006 341036 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really think monads should be defined in a similar way class Functor m => Monad m where { join :: m (m a) -> m a; bind :: (a -> m b) -> m a -> m b; return :: a -> m a; } < 1342200018 219271 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, that's tangentical < 1342200021 107479 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider the ((,) e) comonad < 1342200055 282617 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :This lets you do extend (\(a,b) -> a + b) :: Num a => (e, a) -> (e, a) < 1342200058 34591 :aloril!~aloril@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe7ef900-153.dhcp.inet.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1342200076 709927 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Num a => (a, a) -> (a, a) < 1342200096 475000 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :This lets you use the environment element of the tuple while keeping it the same < 1342200129 730287 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another example: < 1342200143 133837 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes I do understand that it is an environment comonad, I like that. < 1342200155 918892 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Imagine an image data type data Img a = Img (Array (Int, Int) a) (Int, Int) < 1342200163 914281 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it has the image, and a coordinate < 1342200179 991087 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :extract would get the pixel at the specified coordinate < 1342200193 364025 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the pixel is an arbitrary type, of course) < 1342200229 373039 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I guess extend would do convolution filters < 1342200242 865057 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you define a function that gives the pixel above the specified pixel, call it f, extend f shifts the image down a pixel < 1342200276 226554 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION looks up at the comonad chatter
< 1342200277 476770 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Blurs aren't that hard to do, etc, etc < 1342200293 3094 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :edwardk, was it you who showed me this example < 1342200303 97932 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1342200303 858307 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Blur, shift one down, these are both kinds of convolution filters < 1342200321 726641 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :For recolouring, you can just use fmap < 1342200326 666068 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :its one of my favorite comonad examples < 1342200335 641568 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a good example < 1342200350 343185 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :cellular automata are another good one < 1342200363 688446 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you can run a game of life in that image comonad as well for instance < 1342200368 389289 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin PRIVMSG #esoteric :how about faster convolutions? < 1342200387 949917 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1342200391 467653 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :faster how? < 1342200399 793207 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Less slow. < 1342200402 61084 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to use comonads to derive the convolution theorem < 1342200404 847362 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_> < 1342200413 267215 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What convolution theorem? < 1342200422 345677 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convolution_theorem < 1342200507 941567 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The NonEmpty comonad lets you use the remainder of the list as context, which is useful sometimes < 1342200511 998329 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1342200544 583346 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :duplicate for non-empty list makes the part of the list starting from each element < 1342200551 778297 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it will do that < 1342200561 37046 :kallisti!~eris@h228.63.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1342200561 379813 :kallisti!~eris@h228.63.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net QUIT :Changing host < 1342200561 578876 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake JOIN :#esoteric < 1342200618 622680 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :duplicate copies the context to the content, sort of? < 1342200642 551356 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :While keeping the content < 1342200665 209222 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1342200731 248763 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk JOIN :#esoteric < 1342200739 578761 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The purpose of duplicate differs by the comonads and the purpose of join differs by the monads, what they mean for each one is differ as long as the laws are followed. Therefore it also makes a Kleisli category or coKleisli category and can use bind and extend to mean something too. Or you can do it the other way around also work. < 1342200787 887140 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've got an unrelated question < 1342200802 535086 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :How are Arrows generalizations of Monads? < 1342200855 637255 :aloril!~aloril@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe7ef900-153.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1342200862 565194 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do not understand that either. To me it seem, Arrow is a category, having a functor from (->), and is a tensor category, and fanout, and possibly some additional laws. < 1342200979 954068 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arrows are a specialisation of Categories, I get that < 1342201027 285754 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: dinner < 1342201387 638173 :aloril!~aloril@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe7ef900-153.dhcp.inet.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1342201404 544041 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :edwardk: Do you know anything about Penrose graphical notation? And about what categories are possible to draw in this way (with restrictions, such as you may be unable to cross lines and whatever depending on what category) < 1342201429 535817 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1342201474 975634 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1342201534 637241 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1342201639 926189 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1342201682 737835 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk JOIN :#esoteric < 1342201867 360097 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1342201886 817153 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :re: penrose diagrams I'm more familiar with the trace diagram special case < 1342201930 916972 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1342201936 912272 :ernesto1!~el_rey@190.199.231.176 JOIN :#esoteric < 1342201999 431374 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can probably use some form of tensor diagrams in monoidal categories, which would make sense given the existence of string diagrams < 1342202012 197843 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: are you familiar with string diagrams? < 1342202128 968988 :aloril!~aloril@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe7ef900-153.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1342202174 759352 :ernesto1!~el_rey@190.199.231.176 PART :#esoteric < 1342203333 766864 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :No < 1342203421 574135 :aloril!~aloril@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe7ef900-153.dhcp.inet.fi QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1342203463 252932 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-145-4.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1342203472 273317 :neutrino2000!~neutrino@host-188-174-160-51.customer.m-online.net QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1342203473 31015 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-225-50.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1342204256 827609 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: they are what you are looking for in category theory as an equivalent < 1342204278 366351 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a video series by the catsters on them < 1342204278 711631 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USYRDDZ9yEc < 1342204280 696823 :aloril!~aloril@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe7ef900-153.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1342204306 155678 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :they have ~5 videos, and the recent hinze paper on kan extensions uses them a lot, so you may get some intuition on them from that < 1342204331 893093 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are closer to trace diagrams, which are a special case of the penrose notation < 1342204895 51143 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what these dmesg lines spamming my dmesg is about: < 1342204896 343453 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :[203653.110416] cdc_acm 2-2:1.1: This device cannot do calls on its own. It is not a modem. < 1342204896 542389 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :[203653.110589] cdc_acm 2-2:1.1: ttyACM0: USB ACM device < 1342204933 113528 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly from yesterday < 1342204945 775885 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only think I used an USB mouse and an USB memory then? < 1342204956 506343 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hacked by chinese < 1342204996 68376 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh actually I might have connected my phone yesterday < 1342205002 115939 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would make some sense < 1342205041 82463 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl < 1342205177 322967 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1342205178 369248 :Lumpio-!~matti@62-113-182-248.bb.dnainternet.fi QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1342205379 938384 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@178235038077.elblag.vectranet.pl QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1342205465 242435 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk JOIN :#esoteric < 1342205563 900891 :derdon!~derdon@pD9E1C369.dip.t-dialin.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1342206103 341730 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like the error message. < 1342206113 283730 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's somehow whimsical. < 1342206204 842353 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I'm a doctor, not an escalator", or whatever. < 1342206352 317370 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1342206644 976680 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1342206698 83424 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello < 1342206714 564298 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :evening < 1342206896 921488 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-17.access.telenet.be QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1342207451 882747 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Night! < 1342207504 55322 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1342207752 641136 :Dovregubben!~kurt@c-67-160-13-34.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1342207768 90740 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@ping < 1342207768 776038 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :pong < 1342207803 193070 :Dovregubben!~kurt@c-67-160-13-34.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1342207896 305380 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know what NES mappers map the name tables as well as additional RAM both to $6000..$7FFF CPU memory? < 1342208540 265391 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1342208660 840843 :nooga!~nooga@ip-46-250-173-30.ip.maverick.com.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1342210077 795923 :ogrom!~del@gprs-inet-65-121.elisa.ee QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1342210078 283335 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-152-104.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1342210110 557387 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake JOIN :#esoteric < 1342210114 28132 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-145-4.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1342210371 919089 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1342211187 682237 :ernesto1!~el_rey@190.199.231.176 JOIN :#esoteric < 1342211373 758525 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake JOIN :#esoteric < 1342211385 992754 :ernesto1!~el_rey@190.199.231.176 PART :#esoteric < 1342211767 625410 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :IT’S A SHARK! http://youtu.be/ZcuYjDR2tSg?t=40s < 1342212017 424293 :ogrom!~del@gprs-inet-65-121.elisa.ee JOIN :#esoteric < 1342212060 441105 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A bigass shark, at that! < 1342213883 380951 :ernesto2!~el_rey@190.199.231.176 JOIN :#esoteric < 1342214364 903527 :ernesto2!~el_rey@190.199.231.176 PART :#esoteric < 1342214977 144490 :ernesto1!~el_rey@190.199.231.176 JOIN :#esoteric < 1342214991 759078 :ernesto1!~el_rey@190.199.231.176 PART :#esoteric < 1342215496 872500 :nooga!~nooga@ip-46-250-173-30.ip.maverick.com.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1342215516 758256 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi NICK :] < 1342215526 77661 :]!nortti@smar.fi NICK :nortti < 1342215866 187189 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1342215923 560430 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1342216154 303897 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bf +[#>+] < 1342216156 906187 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1342216165 183069 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :no debug command. shame. < 1342216977 421050 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1342217168 582010 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net QUIT :Read error: Connection timed out < 1342217198 910237 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1342217564 10363 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello < 1342217592 449429 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@ping < 1342217593 194308 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :pong < 1342217608 771544 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Goodbye < 1342217623 816407 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: I'm really interesting, aren't I? < 1342217819 172690 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is having a bout of simon tatham's Loopy puzzle
< 1342217846 860359 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :they require a fascinating variety of little tricks < 1342217865 135040 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the occasional deeper logic < 1342217907 292071 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and which tricks are useful changes subtly with the chosen grid shape < 1342219161 565593 :david_werecat!~david_wer@24-52-224-101.cable.teksavvy.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1342219956 876526 :nooga!~nooga@ip-46-250-173-30.ip.maverick.com.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1342220525 582065 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :except when you have to restart... < 1342220721 631011 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk JOIN :#esoteric < 1342221453 364173 :nortti_!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1342221699 535199 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :edwardk: Why did you make a Plus that requires Functor as well even though it can be used without? < 1342221840 657071 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk QUIT :Quit: Leaving... < 1342221898 196611 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you make a type for F-algebra newtype Algebra f x = Algebra (f x -> x) then you can make a monoid of coKleisli endomorphisms < 1342222294 286953 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You get CodensityAsk ((->) x) to be like Either x including a MonadPlus instance if x is a monoid < 1342222348 964350 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Free (Const x) is also like Either x and it is similar by ((->) x) like Algebra (Const x) too. < 1342222516 245098 :david_werecat!~david_wer@24-52-224-101.cable.teksavvy.com QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1342222525 245374 :david_werecat!~david_wer@24-52-224-101.cable.teksavvy.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1342222623 433006 :nortti_!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi QUIT :Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com ) < 1342222681 468136 :nortti_!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1342222846 371094 :nortti_!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi QUIT :Client Quit