00:00:20 <Vorpal> no application does aac tagging compatibly!
00:00:32 <Vorpal> I'm just going to transcode it to .ogg
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00:31:48 <kmc> i keep the master copy of my music collection in a simple "artist/album/nn - track.ext" directory structure
00:31:55 <kmc> because multi-container tagging is a pain
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00:32:30 <kmc> i have a script to transcode a subset of that to ogg vorbis and tag it, for my portable player
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00:53:36 <zzo38> Do you like Ogg containers?
01:02:52 <oerjan> I do not like greens oggs and hogs
01:03:19 <zzo38> Do you like the Decompose type I have made up in Haskell?
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01:15:17 <zzo38> Do you like CodensityAsk (and CodensityAskT)? I have figured out many things about it.
01:20:21 <zzo38> (CodensityAsk (Store s)) is also MonadPlus.
01:21:17 <Vorpal> hm on-board sucks so badly. I just compared it to my phone, my phone has way better bass than my desktop's onboard sound (using a pair of studio headphones in both cases). My SB Live beats both of course.
01:22:14 <zzo38> After edwardk told about F-algebras to make free monad and so on, I realized that making the free comonad from Maybe and from the Copeanoid class it is also a F-coalgebra for Maybe so it is the same thing.
01:22:37 <zzo38> Even though I can already see that it is a non-empty list comonad in both cases, now I can see the similarity, too.
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01:29:36 <Vorpal> zzo38, wow that went completely over my head
01:29:53 <Vorpal> should learn more category theory I guess
01:34:29 <tswett> TWO _HUNDRED_ THIRTEEN _THOUSAND_ ONE _HUNDRED_ FORTY_ FOUR
01:34:46 <tswett> Today's puzzle: come up with #defines so that that expression works as expected.
01:35:00 <tswett> The first few seem easy enough:
01:35:38 <tswett> #define ONE 1; #define TWO 2; #define FOUR 4; #define THIRTEEN 13; #define FORTY_ 40 +; #define _HUNDRED_ * 100 +
01:35:53 <tswett> The hard part is _THOUSAND_.
01:36:35 <tswett> I guess the best I can think of is #define _THOUSAND_ ) * 1000 + (
01:36:43 <tswett> Then (TWO _HUNDRED_ THIRTEEN _THOUSAND_ ONE _HUNDRED_ FORTY_ FOUR) will work correctly.
01:37:12 <kmc> #define TWO 213144; #define _HUNDRED_ + 0; #define THIRTEEN + 0; ...
01:37:29 <tswett> kmc: I said "as expected". That's not how I would expect it to work.
01:37:40 <kmc> i wouldn't expect it to work at all
01:38:00 <oerjan> if one may assume that an expression like TWO _HUNDRED_ alone should also work, then there are more problems...
01:38:25 <tswett> Nah, there'd be a separate symbol, _HUNDRED, for that.
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01:39:03 <kmc> <$ <$> <* <*> *>
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01:39:15 <oerjan> well TWO and FOUR need to work alone, which means they cannot contain any unbalanced bracketing
01:40:27 <tswett> Then FORTY_ must work next to FOUR, so it can't have unbalanced bracketing, either.
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01:40:42 <tswett> Then you can conclude the same for _HUNDRED_, then for _THOUSAND_, right?
01:40:49 <tswett> So you need some real trickery.
01:40:54 <oerjan> which tells me we need to use precedence to get the grouping correct, not brackets
01:42:20 <oerjan> it might be worth looking into more operators than + and *
01:42:20 <comex> is C++ allowed? ;)
01:42:36 <kmc> i still don't understand the problem statement
01:42:39 <tswett> The C preprocessor is supposed to be Turing-complete, isn't it?
01:42:50 <Gregor> It's explicitly designed not to be.
01:42:54 <kmc> what does it mean for it to work "as expected"
01:43:00 <kmc> cpp is turing complete if you allow a file to re-include itself
01:43:04 <kmc> more or less?
01:43:10 <tswett> kmc: make it so that the written-out form of any number evaluates to the correct number.
01:43:11 <Gregor> We had this debate a while ago, it's still not.
01:43:12 <oerjan> tswett: C++ might make a lot of difference to C, since you can overload operators
01:43:13 <comex> though it is, with a certain nonstandard feature
01:43:21 <kmc> i assume implementations have limits on sizes of things
01:43:23 <soundnfury> cpp is designed to guarantee termination, no?
01:43:26 <kmc> comex: which feature?
01:43:34 <Gregor> Well, sure, it could be with nonstandard features, but even with no limit on inclusion depth, it's not TC.
01:43:37 <comex> you can use it to do recursive macros
01:43:56 <kmc> why is it not turing complete if you allow re-inclusion
01:43:57 <Gregor> You can't simulate state changes and without that sort of special macro you can't do recursion.
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01:44:23 <Gregor> Or rather, sorry, you can't simulate unbounded memory.
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01:44:28 <Gregor> You can only do a finite number of states.
01:44:34 <oerjan> tswett: i think we really need to know is this is supposed to work with just C...
01:44:46 <Gregor> Because you can't really define macros in terms of previously defined macros.
01:44:48 <comex> anyway, that wouldn't really help here because there's no enclosing macro
01:44:53 <tswett> It seems easy to do it with C++. Just find some operators with the required precedence (you only need four) and overload them.
01:45:13 <comex> you actually only need one
01:45:28 <tswett> So let's say it must be done in plain C.
01:45:55 <Gregor> If you were allowed to require that they be prefixed by some NUMBER_START macro it'd be easy >_>
01:46:05 <Gregor> Or, equivalently, suffixed.
01:46:13 <tswett> #define NUMBER_START ((; #define NUMBER_END ))
01:46:18 <tswett> And then my scheme works.
01:46:25 <tswett> Gregor: what's your scheme?
01:47:03 <Gregor> tswett: struct numberthing { int value; struct numberthing (*add)(int v); struct numberthing (*mul)(int v); };
01:47:19 <Gregor> You just need to be able to get the value back out at the end.
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01:51:16 <kmc> struct numberwang
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01:51:52 <zzo38> Vorpal: OK then learn
01:52:07 <zzo38> You could look at Wikipedia article about F-algebra
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01:53:45 <oerjan> hm what about the 3[a] trick, can that help?
01:54:45 * oerjan is browsing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operators_in_C_and_C%2B%2B#Operator_precedence
01:54:52 <Gregor> ... you brilliant, brilliant psychopath.
01:55:17 <Gregor> All you need is an array of size 1000, mapping x to 1000*x... oh wait, that operator's precedence is no more convenient than * though.
01:56:05 <oerjan> Gregor: except you can _combine_ it with a real + for the thousands?
01:56:17 <Gregor> <tswett> TWO _HUNDRED_ THIRTEEN _THOUSAND_ ONE _HUNDRED_ FORTY_ FOUR
01:56:17 <Gregor> <tswett> Today's puzzle: come up with #defines so that that expression works as expected.
01:56:42 <oerjan> hm the problem is you still need something else to join the part after it...
01:56:43 <Gregor> oerjan: I think it's salvageable, I just haven't figured out how yet.
01:56:50 <Gregor> comex: In C, a[3] and 3[a] are equivalent.
01:57:45 <kmc> is there a fake C facts blog
01:57:46 <Gregor> oerjan: Maybe EVERY op uses [], except that THOUSAND, MILLION etc use [...]+0
01:58:21 <Gregor> Oh, except then you couldn't get both TWENTY_ TWO and TWO to work, at least not without _TWO being a thing.
01:58:37 <oerjan> bitwise OR would have been nice if you tried doing this for binary :P
01:58:44 <Gregor> oerjan: Yeah, I thought of that.
01:58:44 <kmc> "arrays in C actually contain one extra element at the end" is a commonly believed fake C fact
01:58:50 <kmc> but not that funny
01:59:07 <comex> and ditto all the other ones
01:59:13 <comex> where two is a function that returns a function pointer, etc.
01:59:13 <Gregor> tswett: Is there a reason you've chosen to underscore-attach things exactly like that? Can't have TWO_ _HUNDRED_ _THIRTEEN_ _THOUSAND_ _ONE_ _HUNDRED_ _FORTY_ _FOUR?
01:59:42 <Gregor> comex: That was the gist of my struct solution (although yours is more elegant), but the problem is you need a suffix.
01:59:43 <oerjan> kmc: there is a technically true fact slightly similar - it is not undefined behavior to increment a pointer to that address
01:59:53 <Gregor> Otherwise you end up with a function pointer instead of data :(
01:59:55 <oerjan> but dereferencing it still is
01:59:57 <kmc> yeah i think it stems from that
02:00:01 <comex> Gregor: pointers automatically cast to integers :)
02:00:16 <Gregor> So the (two) function will just CONVENIENTLY be at location 0x2?
02:00:31 <kmc> probably an error introduced when the C specification was translated from the original Aramaic
02:00:35 <comex> nah, but it would detect when you've come to the end and give you (void *) result
02:01:45 <comex> because you basically have an interpreter
02:02:08 <Gregor> Except that when you're finished is /exactly/ when you don't have an interpreter.
02:02:20 <shachaf> kmc: Is that fact believed because you can say int x[5]; and then compare &x[0] to &x[5]?
02:02:28 <comex> oh, I guess it doesn't know what you end with
02:02:31 <shachaf> Oh, yes, oerjan said that.
02:03:38 <comex> (I mean, you could still do it by conveniently locating functions in such a way, or trapping SIGSEGV or whatever)
02:06:28 <comex> #define TWO +0<0?0:two()
02:07:31 <oerjan> comex: i was just pondering combining , and = :P
02:07:47 <comex> oh durr, , would be easier
02:11:52 <shachaf> Fun fact: In JavaScript, (0,eval)(x) is very different from eval(x)
02:12:39 <oerjan> and then there's something in cpp about joining identifiers, which i only know exists
02:12:47 <ion> shachaf: nice
02:12:53 <oerjan> or tokens, or whatever
02:13:18 <shachaf> @google javascript global eval
02:13:23 <lambdabot> http://weblogs.java.net/blog/driscoll/archive/2009/09/08/eval-javascript-global-context
02:13:23 <lambdabot> Title: Eval JavaScript in a global context | Java.net
02:13:34 <Gregor> Indirect eval is global eval.
02:13:42 <Gregor> It's so that scope-modifying evals are statically knowable.
02:15:53 <ion> Yes, both < 3
02:16:28 <oerjan> in c, are global variables and record fields in the same namespace?
02:16:43 <oerjan> otherwise there might be a way to use -> or . ...
02:17:21 * shachaf wonders what people are trying to do here.
02:18:08 * oerjan is just vaguely pondering the TWO _HUNDRED_ THIRTEEN _THOUSAND_ ONE _HUNDRED_ FORTY_ FOUR problem
02:19:06 <oerjan> without actual global state, it seems hard to use anything lower precedence than +, but if something high could be used, _THOUSAND_ could be * 1000 + if there was just
02:22:52 <oerjan> oh hm FORTY_ TWO _HUNDRED is not necessary to support, i assume. which means _HUNDRED _could_ use the 3[a] trick for the left part
02:23:34 <Gregor> The problem with the [a] trick is making both FORTY_ TWO and TWO work.
02:23:50 <Gregor> (And FORTY_ TWO _THOUSAND, of course)
02:24:25 <Gregor> That's why I asked tswett whether a solution with more connectors would work, e.g. FORTY_ _TWO_ _THOUSAND.
02:24:33 <Gregor> Then the [a] trick would give us everything we need.
02:25:02 <Gregor> (It also has the benefit that it'd be much easier to remember how to use it)
02:25:31 <oerjan> a -> or . trick could make FORTY_ TWO and TWO work assuming record fields are in a different namespace
02:25:38 <Phantom_Hoover> What does C do when you give it a bunch of whitespace-separated digits, out of curiosity?
02:25:53 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Cry a lot.
02:26:14 <Gregor> oerjan: That was my suffixing problem.
02:26:24 <Gregor> oerjan: You can make it work like that, but need a suffix to get it back to a number.
02:26:55 <oerjan> Gregor: or some initialized structures and variables, surely?
02:26:58 <shachaf> > 1 2 base 8 which is 10 base 10 and you take away 3 that's 7
02:27:32 <Gregor> oerjan: I don't see how having initialized structs and vars helps you avoid the suffix issue...
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02:27:59 <tswett> Whoops, where were we.
02:28:23 <oerjan> Gregor: if you can have two be both a global variable set to 2 and a field name in your struct...
02:28:23 <kmc> every word in that sentence starts with 'w'
02:28:32 <tswett> Gregor: well, yeah, the idea is that each underscore represents the presence of an operator.
02:29:25 <Gregor> oerjan: Ohh, I see your game… but you'd still end up with a . problem with the underscores as presented.
02:29:36 <Gregor> tswett: If I'm allowed to throw underscores everywhere, it becomes quite achievable.
02:30:06 <tswett> With my scheme, (FORTY_ _THOUSAND) would process to (40 + ) * 1000.
02:30:31 <tswett> Uh, except no, because _THOUSAND cannot suppress the trailing parenthesis.
02:30:44 <tswett> Okay, (40 + ) * 1000 + (0).
02:30:57 <tswett> Since FORTY_ is 40 +, whereas FORTY is 40.
02:31:47 <oerjan> #define _HUNDRED_ [hArray] ->
02:32:44 * oerjan has never actually used -> he thinks
02:33:24 <Gregor> I'mma build the [a] trick version.
02:33:54 <oerjan> #define FORTY_ FORTY ->
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02:37:08 <tswett> NEGATIVE_ B _PLUS_OR_MINUS_ THE_SQUARE_ROOT_OF_ THE_QUANTITY_ B _SQUARED _MINUS_ FOUR _TIMES_ A _TIMES_ C _ALL_OVER_ TWO _TIMES_ A
02:37:13 <oerjan> #define FORTY_ array_or_field_40
02:37:25 <oerjan> um wait no that was the problem
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02:37:43 <oerjan> getting FORTY_ to work both with and without HUNDRED_ preceding
02:38:24 <oerjan> um wait no that's fine
02:39:46 <oerjan> dammit searching for C namespaces gives all those hits about how to do user-definable ones
02:42:00 <kmc> pretty sure you can have a field and a variable of the same name
02:42:03 <kmc> linux does this all over
02:42:20 <shachaf> Certainly you can have two fields of the same name.
02:43:46 <Gregor> http://sprunge.us/KbiF Tada
02:44:17 <Gregor> The format isn't exactly as tswett described, but is in fact much, much simpler.
02:45:38 <oerjan> oh that's what you wanted the +0 for
02:47:48 <Gregor> Yeah, it would be unnecessary if I just required that the first word after THOUSAND or MILLION or whatnot not be prefixed.
02:48:23 * soundnfury wonders if you can pull some trick with ##
02:48:43 <Gregor> Um hello it's already done I win guys.
02:51:14 <oerjan> "It is also possible to concatenate two numbers (or a number and a name, such as 1.5 and e3) into a number."
02:51:56 <oerjan> "However, it is an error if `##' appears at either end of a macro body. "
02:52:03 <Gregor> The problem is you only have token pasting within macros X_X
02:52:08 <Gregor> They need to expand to something consistent.
02:52:22 <soundnfury> so we'd have TWO##THIRTEEN##ONE##FORTY##FOUR, and then HUNDRED etc. would be noise keywords?
02:52:38 <Gregor> soundnfury: You couldn't even use that, because you can only paste tokens WITHIN macros.
02:52:41 <soundnfury> or #define HUNDRED 0 // for eg TWO##HUNDRED##FIVE == 205
02:53:20 <Gregor> Also, what the hell is TWO THIRTEEN ONE FORTY FOUR
02:53:40 <Gregor> Well for that you're just fucked in any system I think 8-D
02:53:54 <tswett> Or possibly 2131404. But probably not.
02:54:07 <tswett> Although if 213144 were a string of digits, I'd be likely to read it as "twenty-one thirty-one forty-four".
02:54:21 <soundnfury> oh yeah, that would want to be ONE##FOUR##FOUR
02:54:53 <Gregor> MY SYSTEM IS BEST SYSTEM AND YOU'RE ALL JUST JEALOUS
02:54:55 <soundnfury> anyway, why are we trying to do this? Is someone trying to make C feel more COBOLish?
02:55:04 <oerjan> soundnfury: ask tswett
02:55:25 <Gregor> Ooooh, with my system you could eschew underscores for capitalization! FOUR becomes Four, _FOUR becomes four!
02:55:26 * soundnfury thinks Welsh television should have a show called Cobol y pwm
02:55:51 <soundnfury> (it's funny because they have one called Pobol y cwm, whatever that means)
02:57:06 <oerjan> "People in the valley"
02:57:16 <kmc> it's about the wonderful art of padlock folding or, "padlockigami"
02:57:57 <oerjan> google seems to think "Cobol" still means people when switching the letters
02:59:27 <oerjan> oh hm i recall p initially in celtic languages only exists in loanwords, so they may be rare...
02:59:32 <kmc> see? they is his cousins!
03:00:05 <oerjan> or more precisely, that they dropped initial p at some point
03:01:08 <oerjan> also, the only native word in norwegian starting with p is the preposition på (which is a contraction of norse upp á)
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03:01:51 <oerjan> which i guess is cognate to upon
03:02:13 <shachaf> kmc: Is the mosh object synchronization thing meant to be used on its own yet?
03:02:22 <tswett> http://pastie.org/4258682 - THIS TOTALLY WORKS, I IMAGINE
03:02:49 <kmc> shachaf: not exactly, but it is reasonably well abstracted in the mosh source code
03:02:54 <kmc> talk to KeithW about it
03:03:08 <shachaf> That's the eventual plan, though, right?
03:03:20 <kmc> "plan" is a strong word
03:03:21 <oerjan> tswett: a most sublime imagination
03:03:35 <kmc> hmm I'll actually be in Wales next week
03:03:42 <kmc> is there something i should do there besides "take a train to London"?
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03:04:32 <oerjan> kmc: obviously you need to visit llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch
03:04:50 <kmc> obviously, i was planning to pick up some padlocks there
03:04:54 <kmc> from a store or smith
03:05:16 <shachaf> * kmc is now known as jonah
03:05:30 <kmc> wat = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-Fcy70fhds
03:06:06 * oerjan wonders why youtube things i'm using IE 7
03:06:41 <oerjan> and youtube is warning me to change since they'll stop supporting 7.
03:06:57 <shachaf> Are you using IE 7 compatibility mode?
03:07:15 <soundnfury> "By Abergavenny, Merther Tydfil, and Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch!" said Mr. Bargain-Price. "This is too much!"
03:07:44 <kmc> oerjan: wow i thought you made that name up
03:09:47 <soundnfury> kmc: you couldn't /make/ something like that up
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03:09:54 <kmc> well yes you could
03:09:59 <kmc> but anyway it does seem like i will go through there
03:10:03 <kmc> as it's on the rail line from holyhead
03:10:31 <kmc> soundnfury: "The village's long name cannot be considered an authentic Welsh-language toponym. It was artificially contrived in the 1860s to bestow upon the station the honour of having the longest name of any railway station in Britain"
03:11:10 <oerjan> shachaf: hm no, although google+ likes to complain that i am :P
03:11:51 <oerjan> i suppose it might be the same cause...
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03:12:11 <soundnfury> kmc: sure, but it wasn't "made up" per se, it's authentic welsh, even if not an authentic welsh name
03:12:52 <kmc> that's true
03:17:08 <soundnfury> Ahh, Johnston Railway Sans... now there's a real corker of a font
03:18:13 <kmc> what about dyddiadfymathoobellamaenarywbethygwaithanoddinierdigon
03:19:26 <kmc> which i pulled out of a markov chain just now
03:27:18 <zzo38> In Soviet Russia, YouTube watches YOU!!
03:28:19 <kmc> that is closer to an actual soviet russia joke than most
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03:33:44 <soundnfury> in soviet russia, worn-out meme repeats YOU!!
03:35:12 <kmc> the meme'd ones lack the part where the reversal has a comprehensible but different meaning which comments on life in the soviet union
03:35:16 <kmc> i.e. the humor
03:36:14 <kmc> I RESPECTFULLY DISAGREE
03:36:38 <kmc> stop choosing to be offended, you mexican jew lizard
03:37:09 <kmc> ("Yes, actually. My mother was from Mexico and my dad was a Hebrew iguana, so...")
03:38:29 <soundnfury> ("No, to be a jew your *mother* would have to be Hebrew, though it doesn't matter which one was the iguana.")
03:38:43 <kmc> ("What are you quoting now?")
03:38:58 <kmc> and that depends who you ask, but yeah basically
03:39:10 <soundnfury> ("I'm not, I'm just irrespectfully disagruntling.")
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03:42:49 <kmc> http://dotsies.org </troll>
03:44:57 <zzo38> soundnfury: Computer Modern because it has so many parameters which can be varied. But even some things about Computer Modern are not perfectly; but the source-codes is available so you can make improvements (as long as you do not call the new one "Computer Modern"), such as a parameter for "R" with straight lines, and so on.
03:45:07 * oerjan is _guessing_ that the warning he got against IE not working well on the site is why he doesn't see anything special there
03:45:40 <kmc> oerjan: on dotsies?
03:45:53 <oerjan> _or_ that could be the joke, i guess
03:46:13 <kmc> i don't think this is a joke :/
03:46:34 <kmc> well it's a joke to me but i don't know if the author is in on it
03:46:42 <oerjan> ok. because i only see a boring normal font.
03:47:47 <Sgeo> dotsies is here.
03:48:00 <Sgeo> oerjan, it's a bunch of dots
03:48:05 <Sgeo> The font is dots
03:48:07 <kmc> it's an alterative way of writing the latin alphabet where every letter is a 5-bit column of black or white dots
03:48:18 <kmc> because human vision is just a grid of pixels right
03:48:19 <oerjan> Sgeo: well so is a boring normal font
03:48:31 <kmc> it's not like the brain has dedicated hardware for recognizing lines, curves, corners, etc.
03:49:02 <kmc> like, this person clearly knows nothing about vision
03:49:06 <kmc> not even the pathetic amount i know
03:49:12 <kmc> which is "i get stoned with neuroscientists occasionally"
03:49:23 <kmc> but you know, being a rails developer makes you an expert at every topic in the world
03:49:47 <Sgeo> kmc, I... guess people could treat each word the way Chinese treat chinese words?
03:49:53 <Sgeo> Or glyphs or whatever
03:49:56 <kmc> that's the idea
03:50:03 <kmc> but encoding it as pixels is still stupid
03:50:10 <kmc> han characters have lines, curves, corners, etc.
03:50:29 <kmc> so do joined arabic letters, hangul clusters, etc.
03:52:04 <Sgeo> Note: Caps and lowercase differ by a dot above the letter
03:52:13 <kmc> i would think that an attempt to revolutionize the latin alphabet should start with a thorough survey of other writing systems, preferably with psychophysical measurements from fluent users of each
03:52:30 <kmc> and also a thorough understanding of human visual processing
03:53:50 <kmc> but you know, all that research is invalid because it was performed by non-programmers
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03:59:46 <itidus21> (not actually meaning anything)
04:02:33 <kmc> http://www.ccelian.com/concepca.html this is way cooler and also probably better
04:03:19 <kmc> oh yeah and the dotsies guy didn't even put any thought into assigning better dot patterns to common letters
04:03:40 <kmc> and has allegedly been working on this for 10 years
04:04:35 <kmc> and braille already exists
04:05:01 <kmc> and has real users who could tell you what's good and bad about it
04:05:04 <itidus21> kmc: well it's not at all like saying A = 65, 65 - 64 = 00001, 90 - 64 = 11010, then drawing the binary numbers as vertical stacks
04:05:19 <kmc> it is a lot like that
04:06:16 <kmc> it's not the binary counting sequence but it's another kind of regular binary sequence applied to the latin letters in order
04:08:37 <kmc> it got a fawning article in techcrunch too
04:08:55 <pikhq> Gah, dotsies looks like a *stupid* orthographic scheme.
04:09:08 <kmc> but it was invented by a rails developer from SF!!!
04:10:54 <kmc> "Keep up the crazy innovation, Craig! It’s guys like you who aren’t afraid to push the status quo that make the world better for the rest of us."
04:11:53 <pikhq> He managed to redesign the *least bad* part of English orthography, and didn't even make it that easy to figure out.
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04:14:15 <kmc> which ones?
04:14:53 <kmc> i would have thought you'd sympathize with this kind of crackpottery itidus21
04:17:04 <itidus21> but i have decided to try not to
04:17:55 <itidus21> "Dotsies is optimized for reading." this isn't clear
04:18:12 <kmc> that claim would be more credible if the author displayed any understanding of how reading works
04:18:39 <kmc> it is not a ridiculous idea to try to improve the latin alphabet and make it more optimized for reading
04:18:50 <itidus21> he's just saying it's optimized
04:18:53 <pikhq> Reading relies heavily on glyphs being distinctive.
04:18:56 <kmc> but you would want to start by knowing something about the field
04:19:04 <kmc> and surveying what's already out there
04:19:32 <kmc> this displays the classic crackpot attitude of "i'm so much smarter than everyone else that I don't need to understand what anyone else has done"
04:19:50 <itidus21> and he's concerned with how much space is taken up by text
04:19:51 <kmc> plus the classic programmer attitude of assuming you know how something works in people because you know how it works in computers
04:20:09 <kmc> itidus21: that makes sense, the time to read something is proportional to how quickly you can move the fovea across it
04:20:18 <kmc> he does seem to know about the fovea at least
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04:23:09 <itidus21> one thing i like about this alphabet is that the long bits on letters like ldbh is that you can see them even in blurry text
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04:24:06 <pikhq_> kmc: The Elian script there does look neat.
04:27:34 <kmc> i don't think i would have such a problem with dotsies if it was just "hey, i made this, isn't it kind of cool / weird, what do you think"
04:27:47 <kmc> but the author is so sure that it's better, and so, so ignorant of anything he would need to understand to make that claim
04:30:06 <kmc> i mean i don't *know* that he's ignorant, but there are many things conspicuously absent from that page
04:30:18 <kmc> anyway i think i have said everything i have to say on this subject
04:30:24 <kmc> but it pisses me off and so i'm disposed to keep talking
04:36:53 <Vorpal> <kmc> plus the classic programmer attitude of assuming you know how something works in people because you know how it works in computers <-- technically humans are nothing more than neural networks. Complicated ones sure, but still just neural networks
04:37:39 <kmc> humans are just atoms man
04:37:48 <kmc> so partical physicists are experts in psychology
04:37:54 <kmc> particle too
04:38:13 <Vorpal> kmc, what was the actual topic though?
04:39:02 <kmc> which actual topic
04:39:36 <Vorpal> the topic from which the line I commented upon was taken
04:39:43 <Vorpal> I just read a few lines above and below
04:39:58 <kmc> also it's not like programmers who develop artificial neural networks have much insight into how the ANN has learned what it knows
04:40:02 <kmc> it's just a black box
04:40:12 <kmc> Vorpal: you could scroll up
04:40:25 <kmc> we were talking about http://dotsies.org
04:40:30 <Vorpal> yeah you can only really explain why ANN works for really simple ones
04:41:51 <Vorpal> the fact that there is centered text further down the page is an immediate warning that the guy doesn't know what he is talking about
04:42:02 <kmc> also it's not like ANNs have much to do with real neurons
04:42:10 <Vorpal> not going to read the rest
04:42:16 <kmc> why is centered text bad
04:42:21 <Vorpal> kmc, indeed, I was being ironic/sarcastic
04:42:26 <kmc> yeah i know
04:42:32 <kmc> i just felt like enumerating all the ways it's wrong
04:42:34 <kmc> for completeness you know
04:42:35 <Vorpal> kmc, well, it is harder to read, besides it is far too large
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04:42:47 <Vorpal> like hard to read on this 15" screen due to being so large
04:42:57 <kmc> that's true
04:43:41 <Vorpal> oh right, I didn't allow javascript
04:43:47 <Vorpal> turning that on helped a bit
04:44:23 <kmc> the big centered text is supposed to be in the dotsies font
04:44:31 <kmc> which would also explain why you can't read it
04:44:31 <Vorpal> it wasn't due to noscript
04:44:52 <Vorpal> when I did allow scripts it is no longer like 72 pt
04:45:10 <Vorpal> kmc, but centered text like that is a terrible idea
04:45:23 <Vorpal> reminds me of timecube
04:45:49 <kmc> there are more than a few parallels you could draw
04:46:03 <Vorpal> actually timecube isn't even properly centered
04:46:10 <Vorpal> it is centered but not in the center of the screen
04:46:12 <kmc> does he like insert spaces manually
04:46:22 <Vorpal> no the page is just too wide
04:46:28 <Vorpal> that it scrolls sideways
04:50:21 <Vorpal> kmc, the maximally readable text is something generated by LaTeX with the microtype package btw
04:51:02 <Vorpal> and yes microtype adjustments to make the text more pleasing to the eye
04:53:04 <kmc> i did not know about microtype
04:54:39 <kmc> wow to think all my previous latex documents had slightly ragged margins and suboptimal inter-word spacing
04:54:45 * kmc deeply embarrassed
04:55:40 <Vorpal> kmc, actually they had straight margins, it is that slightly ragged margins look optically straighter!
04:56:12 <Vorpal> kmc, needs pdftex, doesn't work with xelatex yet afaik
04:56:16 <Vorpal> not sure about luatecx
04:58:26 <pikhq_> kmc: Eh, most people won't notice.
04:58:48 <pikhq_> kmc: I have been accused of being some sort of freak for being able to actually consciously notice a lack of microtypography.
04:59:14 <Vorpal> pikhq_, I would notice if I specifically set out to check, probably not otherwise
04:59:57 <kmc> latex freak
05:00:39 <soundnfury> bah! You kids and your LaTeX! Real men use TĒX!
05:00:47 <Vorpal> soundnfury, hey are you zzo38?
05:01:27 <pikhq_> Inference suggests it's elliott.
05:01:38 <zzo38> soundnfury: I don't think you are me.
05:01:39 <pikhq_> From the mythical land of six pigs.
05:02:04 <soundnfury> I don't think I can be, because iirc zzo38 likes Haskell. I flatly refuse to have an alternate personality which likes Haskell.
05:02:28 <shachaf> Haskell? MORE LIKE STUPIDSKELL
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05:03:28 <Vorpal> <pikhq_> Inference suggests it's elliott. <-- oh?
05:03:42 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Just seemed like a fairly elliott-y response is all.
05:03:57 <Vorpal> but the rest I don't think
05:04:02 <Vorpal> also he dislikes haskell
05:04:04 <zzo38> Some documents may require different TeX executables such as tex, latex, pdftex, pdflatex, xelatex, xetex, etc some may work with more than one. My TeX documents I only ensure they work in Plain TeX using the "tex" executable everywhere; someone has told me one document they got from me doesn't work with pdftex.
05:04:51 <pikhq_> zzo38: Yeah, that was your thing for documenting an RPG character's story and stats through a campaign.
05:04:51 <kmc> interference suggests it's elliott
05:05:16 <zzo38> I do not know why it doesn't work with pdftex but if you require PDF format you can convert DVI to PDF afterward and also with whatever other format you need, DVI to PostScript, DVI to PCL, DVI to PNG, etc.
05:05:24 <kmc> zzo38 likes haskell but had a pile of suggested changes to the language from day 1
05:05:25 <zzo38> pikhq_: Yes, I think that was it.
05:05:36 <pikhq_> zzo38: I know it was: I'm the one who told you. :P
05:05:55 * kmc likes haskell but doesn't use it or think about it much anymore
05:05:57 <pikhq_> zzo38: Anyways, yeah, I just ran it through dvipdf.
05:06:04 <kmc> I guess that makes me one of those people
05:06:57 <zzo38> pikhq_: If your printer does not require PDF then you shouldn't require to convert it to PDF (unless you have a DVI previewer that has some problems and a PDF previewer which works better).
05:09:35 <zzo38> I have still written some more of that RPG story since you saw last, possibly. And I have finally thought about all the plan ahead what to do in next session of this game.
05:10:14 <zzo38> kmc: Did you like some of the suggestions and hate some of the others? I think that was the case of some people. But I think not all of my ideas would work in Haskell therefore we have to make up the new programming language instead.
05:11:50 <zzo38> soundnfury: Well, that is OK if you hate Haskell. I like Haskell and I like mathematics, though.
05:11:56 <kmc> zzo38: i definitely liked some of them
05:12:07 <kmc> others seemed too weird for me to figure out if i liked them or not
05:12:47 <kmc> i guess it's just that, i haven't written much code recently, and i got tired of talking about haskell if i'm not writing much code
05:12:57 <kmc> but i still intend to use haskell in the future where appropriate
05:13:23 <zzo38> I still do sometimes program in Haskell but I also program in C and so on. Yesterday I have written a 6502 assembly language program.
05:13:43 <kmc> cool, what for?
05:13:57 <kmc> the languages i use most are C, Haskell, and Python
05:14:20 <kmc> also shell script but I try not to write shell scripts with much in the way of "programming"
05:14:27 <zzo38> To test VRC7 audio by placing values in the register and then push START to send them, such as to make custom instrument so you can know what it sound like and adjust it until it is what you like.
05:15:42 <zzo38> This is the program code: http://sprunge.us/RDMj
05:15:43 <pikhq_> zzo38: Mostly just that I prefer to use a PDF viewer
05:16:09 <kmc> i wonder if i should do something with my shell / Python / brainfuck / COM / C / Haskell polyglot
05:16:11 <zzo38> pikhq_: Well, if that is what you prefer, then OK, I suppose
05:16:25 <kmc> it's not the most impressive polyglot or the most comprehensive, but it's concise and i like it
05:16:54 <kmc> however posting it on my blog is a bit pointlessly showoffy even for me
05:17:23 <kmc> "is there something like tumblr for code"
05:17:30 <zzo38> Instructions: LEFT/RIGHT move cursor, UP/DOWN adjust value, START to send values. Rightmost column labeled "A" means the "ST" column will be XOR by that value when START is pushed before the values are sent to the audio hardware.
05:18:07 <kmc> the source code is also a DOS COM file
05:18:16 <Vorpal> what does the program do?
05:18:29 <kmc> it prints "Hello, shell!" or "Hello, Python!" etc.
05:18:50 <kmc> i am pretty pleased with these lines:
05:18:50 <kmc> printf="#%s"
05:18:50 <kmc> exec printf %"sHello, shell!\n"
05:18:50 <kmc> print "Hello, Python!"
05:19:42 <itidus21> ponders about a conditional text file, where command line parameters are passed along with the textfile to read a particular subset of that text file based on those parameters
05:19:43 <zzo38> Do you know anything about VRC7 audio?
05:20:02 <kmc> itidus21: you could do that with C preprocessor
05:20:32 <zzo38> It is using OPLL but with only six channels and the built-in instruments are different. You can only define one custom instrument at a time although it can be played on multiple channels at once.
05:21:08 <zzo38> itidus21: Perhaps use a shebang line mentioning grep?
05:21:46 <kmc> it sounds more like CPP with -D parameters to me
05:21:50 <kmc> but there are plenty of ways to skin this cat
05:22:30 <kmc> i wanted to make it an AVR binary as well, but all the interesting AVR instructions contain non-ASCII characters :/
05:22:41 <kmc> when interpreted as, err, Latin-1
05:22:58 <kmc> what i mean to say is, they contain bytes above 0x7F
05:23:27 <zzo38> Can you include Z80 or 6502 codes?
05:24:30 <kmc> but i would have to pick a particular platform
05:24:47 <kmc> if it's going to display text
05:25:18 <kmc> i say "DOS .COM file" because as 8086 machine code it uses DOS INT 21h calls
05:25:30 <kmc> though there are other platforms that provide those calls, i think COMBOOT might even
05:26:00 <kmc> for AVR i would probably just blink the LED on the Arduino, that being the Hello World of that particular platform
05:26:03 <kmc> but i can't even do that i think
05:27:48 <zzo38> Could you make a PRG ROM (only) of NES/Famicom that writes the text to the name table assuming the CHR ROM 0 is ASCII?
05:29:58 <kmc> what's the name table?
05:31:14 <zzo38> kmc: Name table is the grid of the tiles to display on the background. (I don't know why it is called a name table)
05:42:25 <zzo38> Have you ever make up a puzzle game of Pokemon Card?
05:42:32 <zzo38> Or of Magic: the Gathering?
05:46:44 <itidus21> nes graphics has a peculiar charm about it.
05:57:54 <zzo38> itidus21: Have you ever made any NES game?
05:58:29 <Vorpal> challenge make an interesting C/C++ polygot.
05:58:48 <Vorpal> making a polygot in general for that case is of course trivial, but how do you make an interesting one
05:58:51 <zzo38> So far I have just written one program for NES/Famicom which is used to test the VRC7 audio.
05:58:58 <zzo38> I posted the source-codes of that program above.
06:00:01 <zzo38> Who of you have and have not figure out my Pokemon Card puzzle?
06:00:06 <kmc> "For example, character literals such as 'a' are of type int in C and of type char in C++, which means that sizeof 'a' will generally give different results in the two languages"
06:00:30 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compatibility_of_C_and_C%2B%2B#Constructs_that_behave_differently_in_C_and_C.2B.2B
06:01:01 <kmc> has another interesting example where a local struct declaration shadows a global variable
06:01:22 <zzo38> kmc: Well, that is one way to test the difference of C/C++ at runtime, although normally you would test this at compile-time instead.
06:01:51 <kmc> well Vorpal just asked for an interesting one
06:02:39 <kmc> now, can you make something that's valid C and also valid Objective C, and does different things in each language
06:02:47 <itidus21> i think interesting is using c++ keywords not in c
06:02:48 <kmc> without using the preprocessor define explicitly designated for this purpose
06:03:19 <zzo38> I think Objective C is a strict superset of C.
06:03:33 <kmc> Vorpal: I thought for C vs C++ you could also maybe use the fact that iso646.h is (basically) implicitly included in C++
06:03:41 <zzo38> So that if it is a valid C code, then it will mean the same thing in Objective C, as far as I know.
06:03:55 <Vorpal> kmc, I was thinking syntax that would be interpreted differently
06:05:02 <zzo38> For certain implementations it still may be possible to test Objective C at runtime in a different way.
06:09:38 <zzo38> Do you like my Pokemon Card puzzles?
06:09:53 <zzo38> Make one involving the IMAKUNI? card.
06:10:54 <zzo38> Possibly you can make a <100% win Pokemon Card puzzle, a helpmate Pokemon Card puzzle, etc.
06:12:37 <zzo38> These ones are both 100% win normal mode (not helpmate or anything else like that): http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/textfile/miscellaneous/pokemon_card/puzzle.1 http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/textfile/miscellaneous/pokemon_card/puzzle.2
06:13:07 <zzo38> However in both games you have to win on the current turn.
06:16:37 <zzo38> You might think to activate CHARMANDER [Lv12], play DARK CHARMELEON [Lv23] on CHARMANDER [Lv12], and then use the FIRE BALL attack, but that won't work, because you don't have enough energy and even if you do it only gives you a 50% chance.
06:18:49 <zzo38> Once in Pokemon Card, I played an evolution card for the sole purpose of increasing my own retreat cost. Its attacks and the number of its hitpoints were irrelevant at that time.
06:19:03 <EgoBot> 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97
06:19:21 <zzo38> But only once. Have you ever done anything like that?
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06:31:13 <itidus20> i had pokemon blue in about 1998
06:34:32 <zzo38> But did you have Pokemon Card?
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06:36:02 <itidus21> i have never actually played a card game like yugioh, pokemon card, magic the gathering, etc
06:36:22 <zzo38> I have played all of those games.
06:38:06 <zzo38> Do you know rules of any of those game? Can you make up any Pokemon Card puzzle?
06:42:39 <itidus21> i know what pikachu looks like!
06:42:42 <zzo38> Someone told me that to make a noisy audio filter you have a minimum and maximum change between two frames and then if it is not within that range change it to that range and then try next one.
06:42:52 <zzo38> itidus21: That isn't good enough.
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06:43:43 <itidus21> he has thundershock attack and can evolve into raichu
06:43:50 <itidus21> thats about all i know about him
06:44:58 <zzo38> That is correct but not much use.
06:48:50 <itidus21> it makes for a good drinking game. "1 drink every time pikachu uses thundershock"
06:49:15 <itidus21> "1 drink every time brock's pokemon attacks him"
06:49:34 <zzo38> O, it is the TV drinking game.
06:49:39 <zzo38> I prefer card game.
06:51:17 <itidus21> i am interested in dragonball z card games because there are NES/Famicom dragonball z card games
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06:51:31 <itidus21> so it interests me that i should study it one day
06:56:31 <itidus21> i am not sure if they are real card games though
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07:23:46 <shachaf> 00:21 <SoupEvil> html is like php, it wasnt designed for todays usage
07:23:49 <shachaf> 00:22 <SoupEvil> its like pure C, you can programm object orientated, but it is not designed for it
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07:35:41 <shachaf> itidus21: I'm not surprised.
07:36:32 <itidus21> the wikipedeia page for hear, hear links to "+1" and "me too" thus artificially inflating my enthusiasm
07:38:46 <shachaf> monqy: Are you a cryptography expert?
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07:44:45 <itidus21> <html><head><title>...</title></head><body bgcolor="#ffffff"><h1>#include <stdio.h><br/>main(){printf("Hello, world!\n");}</h1></body></html>
08:33:48 <pikhq_> itidus21: Allow me to help: remove html, head, and body.
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08:41:42 <mroman> but after I removed html, there is no body? :(
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09:41:35 <nortti> wow. reading mccarthy's original paper of lisp I hardly recognise that language as lisp
09:54:30 <Taneb> I don't really know lisp
09:54:47 <Taneb> If I saw lisp at a party, I wouldn't recognize it
09:55:17 <zzo38> type Sto s = CodensityAsk (Store s); getSto = CodensityAsk (\(StoreT _ s) r -> r s); setSto x = CodensityAsk (\(StoreT (Identity f) _) _ -> f x); modSto x = CodensityAsk (\(StoreT (Identity f) s) _ -> f (x s)); runSto s (CodensityAsk f) = f (store Left s) Right;
09:56:00 <Taneb> I'm one of the few people who actually sees programming languages at parties, while sober
09:56:11 <zzo38> We even have: modSto f = getSto >>= setSto . f modSto f <|> modSto g = modSto (g . f)
09:56:12 <Taneb> I don't when drunk? Maybe I should investigate
09:56:39 <nortti> you see programming alanguages at parties?
09:56:53 <Taneb> Yeah, I get tired and microsleep
09:57:03 <Taneb> And dream about programming languages?
09:57:11 <zzo38> Therefore empty = modSto id
09:59:04 <nortti> also how would you not recognize lisp? (define append (lambda (x y) (if (null? x) y (cons (car x) (append (cdr x) y))))
10:00:56 <nortti> (define map (lambda (f s) (if (null? s) s (cons (f (car s)) (map f (cdr s))))))
10:01:35 <Taneb> For a start, I'm normally pretty much asleep
10:03:44 <Taneb> Damn, Data.FamilyTree.addPerson is the wrong way round for State
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11:56:15 <itidus21> is it possible to describe one idea of computation as, for every finite expression X in some given language A there is a finite set of primitive operations that will result in finite expression Y in some given language A?
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12:13:30 <zzo38> How is a boxer supposed to try to get his opponent to punch himself out?
12:19:07 <zzo38> (My brother doesn't know either.)
12:30:04 <mroman> by making him exhausted?
12:30:39 <mroman> they both punch at the same time
12:30:54 <mroman> and the punch deflects the punch of the opponent so that he hits himself in the face
12:30:59 <mroman> they both punch at the same time
12:31:25 <mroman> but you punch so hard that you push his hand back into his face
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12:42:45 <zzo38> I found a secret menu in X-BIT
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14:54:25 <mroman> In US schools get paid according to how well their students perform in national wide standardized tests?
14:54:55 <zzo38> I have figured out what (Codensity ((,) x)) does
14:55:16 <Taneb> mroman, wouldn't be a vicious cycle in poorly performing schools?
14:56:46 <nortti> yeah. but supporting every school equaly is socialism!!!!!!!!!!11111111111
14:56:47 <mroman> You mean "wouldn't that be"?
14:57:01 <mroman> It seems so to me, yes.
14:57:07 <mroman> It even sounds stupid to me.
14:57:13 <Taneb> I think it could be like a quadratic thingy
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15:00:24 <Taneb> zzo38, do you think I should change Data.FamilyTree.addPerson etc from FamilyTree -> (FamilyTree, PersonID) to FamilyTree -> (PersonID, FamilyTree) so it works nicer with StateT?
15:01:12 <lambdabot> forall s (m :: * -> *) a. (s -> m (a, s)) -> StateT s m a
15:01:48 <Taneb> :t let addPerson = undefined :: a -> (b, a) in StateT (arr addPerson)
15:01:49 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: s = (a, s)
15:02:24 <Taneb> :t let addPerson = undefined :: a -> (b, a) in state addPerson
15:02:56 <Taneb> :t arr id `asTypeOf` return
15:02:58 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: b = m b
15:03:06 <lambdabot> forall b c (a :: * -> * -> *). (Arrow a) => (b -> c) -> a b c
15:03:56 <Taneb> :t arr id `asTypeOf` Kleisli return
15:03:57 <lambdabot> forall b (m :: * -> *). (Monad m) => Kleisli m b b
15:04:09 <Taneb> :t let addPerson = undefined :: a -> (b, a) in StateT (runKleisli $ arr addPerson)
15:04:11 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) a b. (Monad m) => StateT a m b
15:06:20 <Taneb> But if I do that, I can't use IORefs as easily
15:07:32 <Taneb> @hoogle atomicModifyIORef
15:07:33 <lambdabot> Data.IORef atomicModifyIORef :: IORef a -> (a -> (a, b)) -> IO b
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15:41:07 <kmc> atomicModifyIORef is nice
15:42:42 <kmc> and it's a cool use of laziness -- a strict atomicModifyIORef would have to use heavier-weight synchronization
15:43:49 <copumpkin> ಠ_ಠ, atomicModifyMutVar# :: MutVar# s a -> (a -> b) -> State# s -> (#State# s, c#)
15:45:04 <Taneb> The point is, either I can make using State easy, or I can make using IORefs easy
15:45:30 <kmc> you should make some kind of horrible typeclass which accommodates both
15:45:38 <kmc> so that they're equally bad to use
15:47:15 <Taneb> Unfortunately, the only difference between them is that the tuple is the other way round
15:47:26 <zzo38> Taneb: I think OK change it to work with StateT if you are making a new major version of that package anyways.
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15:53:21 <zzo38> Due to this IORefs etc, instead do not change it, but perhaps make up another module Data.FamilyTree.State which export the function with output in other order, that way you have compatibility too.
15:56:48 <Taneb> I'm not sure if I need compatibility
15:56:55 <Taneb> I think roughly 0 people use it
16:06:00 <zzo38> The type (Codensity ((->) x)) is also a state monad like (State x) and the function to access the state is simply (Codensity join).
16:06:48 <kmc> Taneb: StateT IO isn't a typeclass... I'm not sure what you're getting at
16:07:04 <kmc> anyway it was a not-serious bad suggestion
16:08:10 <zzo38> I think (StateT IO) is not even a valid type.
16:09:40 <zzo38> Perhaps you want (StateT FamilyTree IO) or (StateT (ExtProd Globals) IO) or something like that
16:09:59 <Taneb> The former, most likely
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17:37:02 <Taneb> I think I should add a "Handy re-exports" section in Data.FamilyTree
17:38:42 <Taneb> Data.Lens.[Strict/Lazy], Data.Lens.[Strict/Lazy].fromList (maybe), Data.Time.Calendar?
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18:11:25 <nortti_> I am using netscape to irc
18:12:03 <kmc> nutscrape exploder
18:12:53 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
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18:14:33 <nortti_> it is actually pretty decent browser
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18:23:07 <ogrom> it was decent 10 years ago
18:23:25 <nortti> it is around the same age as ff 1
18:23:39 <nortti> it is still decent browser
18:23:57 <nortti> (compared to links2 at least)
18:23:58 <ogrom> i began using ff since version 0.7 and i know mozilla too
18:24:18 <ogrom> it was called firebird at version 0.7
18:24:31 <nortti> I know. I have also used it
18:24:33 <ogrom> they were decent back then
18:25:07 <nortti> well when does browser stop being decent?
18:25:11 <ogrom> if the machine is not antique, then i always upgrade
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18:26:17 <ogrom> but i see no advantage with firefox these days.. other than it's not chrome
18:26:39 <nortti> what browser do you use then?
18:27:04 <nortti> opera? has it got html5?
18:27:20 <nortti> (I know opera. I have used it)
18:28:00 <ogrom> i don't know.. since recently
18:28:01 <ogrom> isn't html 5 also something recent?
18:28:26 <nortti> yeah. what codecs does it support with html5 video?
18:28:41 <ogrom> i don't know.. i never ran into codec problems with it
18:28:48 <ogrom> supports everything i need
18:29:04 <pikhq> nortti: I think it's just WebM.
18:29:14 <ogrom> what i don't need, i don't just care about
18:29:17 <nortti> ok. is it still available for ppc macs?
18:29:34 <ogrom> not the recent versions
18:29:54 <ogrom> i see, nortti .. you have an antique machine
18:30:07 <nortti> it's a shame. I remeber it being kinda lightweight
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18:30:27 <nortti> actually the g3 is going to be upgrade for me
18:30:30 <ogrom> ppc is antique.. the last version for it was opera 8 or 9
18:30:41 <ogrom> now opera is at v 12
18:31:06 <pikhq> Last one for PPC Mac OS X was Opera 10.
18:31:10 <nortti> ppc is not antique. it is not that old either
18:31:54 <nortti> well my iBook might be but some ppc machines are just 7 years old
18:32:36 <nortti> so? my current machine is 12 years old
18:32:54 <ogrom> http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/everything-you-need-to-know-about-html5-video-and-audio/
18:33:00 <ogrom> opera 10 supported html 5
18:33:28 <pikhq> nortti: Yes, yes, gramps, *you* use something from a different geological era.
18:33:43 <kmc> computers haven't improved *that* much in the past 7 years
18:33:46 <kmc> not compared to the 7 years prior
18:33:49 <nortti> ogrom: well if newest version is not available I'm not going to bother. tenfourfox is still updated
18:34:10 <pikhq> kmc: A 12 year old machine, on the other hand, predates XP.
18:35:15 <ogrom> pre-xp means antique
18:35:30 <pikhq> nortti: *So*, the average phone is a more capable device.
18:36:12 <ogrom> speaking about browsers, i like lynx best
18:36:26 <nortti> I can still program, irc, get new software, surf internet and play video
18:36:39 <nortti> ogrom: I prefer links2 with graphics
18:36:47 <Taneb> My oldest machine is only 11 years old
18:36:58 <ogrom> what graphics does it have? nortti
18:37:01 <Taneb> It runs Windows 98 SE for reasons I know not why
18:37:24 <pikhq> nortti: And you pay more in power for the privelege of using such an old machine than you would just *getting a new one*.
18:37:36 <nortti> ogrom: images. it runs on framebuffer, x, windows and dos
18:38:01 <ogrom> i also know about the experimental ob1 with basic graphics.. its encoding sucks
18:38:11 <nortti> pikhq: it is a laptop. and as I said I am getting a new one
18:38:15 <pikhq> (assuming you go for a low power usage machine, rather than a computing behemoth)
18:38:35 <ogrom> the encoding has to work.. my language must look good
18:39:19 <ogrom> nortti: http://offbyone.com/offbyone/
18:40:18 <nortti> links2 seems bit more modern but on the other hand ob1 has tabs
18:41:09 <nortti> oh. it is not available for linux
18:41:48 <ogrom> i liked ob1 more when it had no tabs
18:42:22 <ogrom> because its interface is otherwise built that way
18:42:39 <ogrom> the tabs are pointless there
18:42:51 <ogrom> on the other hand, tabs always made sense in opera
18:43:21 <ogrom> tabs are halfway there in firefox/mozilla, but they make total sense in opera
18:43:26 <mroman> nortti: No linux port :(
18:44:25 <mroman> I meant another meaning of "buy" ;)
18:45:56 <Sgeo> Why am I installing it
18:46:09 <mroman> Sgeo: Because it rocks.
18:46:17 <mroman> HTML 3.2 is like the real HTML ;)
18:46:57 <nortti> is like? it _is_ THE real HTML
18:47:38 <kmc> old believers itt
18:48:44 <Sgeo> I'm starting to think because even Chrome is a memory hog these days
18:49:14 <nortti> it is bit more modern that ob1
18:49:25 <Sgeo> o.O CSS on fark.com isn't working
18:50:10 <Sgeo> It..... doesn't redirect on 302
18:50:16 <nortti> does it have css support?
18:50:18 <Sgeo> Try going to minecraftwiki.com
18:57:21 <nortti> ob1 can't load gmail. it sucks
18:59:34 <nortti> Sgeo: take a look at netsurf
18:59:55 <nortti> Sgeo: you might like it. or if you need javascript try hv3
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19:13:45 <oerjan> mumble mumble bitch and grumble
19:13:57 * oerjan is feeling shakespearean there
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19:17:20 <oerjan> website crash and project stumble
19:17:36 <oerjan> ^ not actually based on a current event
19:18:08 <olsner> then who was stumble if not project?
19:18:34 <olsner> ok, that's not exactly english, but then again I didn't really mean it to be
19:19:53 <kmc> THEN WHO WAS PHONE?
19:20:02 <oerjan> vem var stumblan om inte project?
19:20:20 <Vorpal> oerjan, "stublan"? What?
19:20:40 <oerjan> Vorpal: i don't know what stumble is in swedish
19:21:14 <Vorpal> olsner, also "projekt"
19:21:39 <olsner> Vorpal: that's just spelling, no-one cares about that anymore :P
19:21:44 <oerjan> Vorpal: i don't know the precise rules of how swedish adapts orthography, either :P
19:22:21 <oerjan> (no:prosjekt, but i somehow didn't feel that would be correct in swedish)
19:22:27 <olsner> the verb project would be projicera
19:22:52 <oerjan> olsner: well it was the noun from the start
19:23:20 <olsner> "sj" is almost always wrong in swedish
19:24:28 <olsner> but swedish is deprecated anyway, you should just use english nowadays
19:24:33 <oerjan> sjuttiosju sjösjuka sjömenn etc.
19:25:36 <oerjan> "sjuttiosju sköna sjuksköterskor skötte sju sjösjuka sjömän på skeppet shanghai"
19:25:46 <oerjan> that's a lot of nurses per sailor
19:25:59 <oerjan> ...probably a porn flick
19:27:03 * oerjan vaguely thought the numbers were the other way around
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19:28:27 <oerjan> sjuttiosju sjösjuka gives a lot of variation in the google hits
19:29:02 <mroman> Do they still use that?
19:29:09 * oerjan has been practicing the sje sound lately. no idea if a swede would approve of the result.
19:29:18 <olsner> I bet stephen fry uses whence a lot
19:30:33 <tswett> What's the shortest way to dereference a null pointer in C? *((void*)0)?
19:30:44 <tswett> Obviously, *0 won't work.
19:30:57 * oerjan saw a reddit novelty user downvotes_whilst yesterday, he got soundly downvoted himself
19:31:23 <olsner> *(void*)0 saves a pair of parens
19:31:29 <oerjan> whilst being explained that the word is still commonly used outside the us
19:32:14 <olsner> if you have a pointer typedef somewhere that is shorter than five letters, or a global pointer that is null, that might be shorter
19:32:38 <oerjan> http://www.reddit.com/user/downvotes_whilst
19:34:24 <oerjan> tswett: will *(int*)0 work?
19:34:44 <olsner> other alternatives would be *NULL, or in C++ *nullptr (if I remember the name correctly)
19:35:24 <oerjan> *NULL looks like a win
19:36:25 <oerjan> even a single letter typedef won't beat that
19:37:13 <olsner> it might also be cheating
19:37:41 * oerjan doesn't know precisely why *NULL would work if *0 doesn't
19:38:54 <olsner> in C, NULL is usually a macro defined to something like (void*)0
19:40:06 <oerjan> actually, _can_ you derefence a (void*) pointer without recasting it first?
19:41:02 <Sgeo> http://exopolitics.blogs.com/exopolitics/2012/07/third-whistle-blower-confirms-obamas-participation-in-cia-jump-room-program-of-early-1980s.html
19:44:57 <Vorpal> * oerjan has been practicing the sje sound lately. no idea if a swede would approve of the result. <-- why would you need that sound?
19:45:06 <Vorpal> also I thought some dialects of Norwegian had it
19:45:27 -!- Gregor has set topic: The Unicode smackdown channel | Individuals guilty of ruining this channel: itidus21 (ex officio), oerjan (ex cathedra), Gregor (ex pony), olsner (k ex), ion (deus ex), shachaf (ex machina), others (see /names) | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
19:45:29 <oerjan> Vorpal: when singing swedish sounds, of course :P
19:45:46 <olsner> you can dereference a void* if the compiler lets you, maybe it silently makes it a char pointer in order for the expression to have a value?
19:46:40 <olsner> iirc, llvm has no void type, and you need to use something like i8* instead
19:47:24 <olsner> Gregor: did you add yourself (ex pony) to the guilt list?
19:47:31 <oerjan> http://c-faq.com/ansi/voidparith.html isn't quite the same...
19:47:33 <Vorpal> <tswett> What's the shortest way to dereference a null pointer in C? *((void*)0)? <-- if you have stdef.h, stdlib.h or any other header that includes NULL somehow, I think *NULL might be shorter.
19:48:11 <Vorpal> oerjan, you sing Swedish songs?
19:48:18 <olsner> Vorpal: we concluded that *NULL was most likely not valid just moments ago
19:48:22 <Gregor> olsner: Yes, though I was originally “ex post facto”
19:48:25 <Vorpal> olsner, yes I saw that after
19:48:34 <olsner> Gregor: oh, ex pony is much funnier
19:48:39 <Vorpal> olsner, I did a elliott and didn't read the whole log before responding
19:48:44 * oerjan sings in the shower when no one else is around
19:48:56 <Vorpal> oerjan, Swedish songs specifically?
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19:49:12 <Gregor> And when someone else is around in the shower, he does… /other/ things.
19:49:35 <oerjan> Gregor: *around in the basement
19:49:39 <olsner> oerjan: which swedish songs would that be?
19:49:43 <Vorpal> I don't get why some people sing in showers, I thought that was a myth in general
19:50:12 <olsner> the bathroom is usually the room with the best acoustics, that's why
19:50:29 <Gregor> Vorpal: I sing in the shower.
19:50:32 <Gregor> I also sing when I drive.
19:51:00 <olsner> I used to sing Le Cantique de Noël (in swedish) in the shower
19:51:26 <oerjan> a bit of vreeswijk [sp?] or taube, for example. now if i just remembered the text
19:51:52 <oerjan> oh yeah helga natt i _definitely_ sing in swedish. know all the text too.
19:52:46 <oerjan> i sometimes sing a little of it in french, after i learned that's the original.
19:53:11 <oerjan> jussi björling all the way, man
19:54:11 <olsner> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjGnanUrZjA
19:55:34 <oerjan> <Vorpal> also I thought some dialects of Norwegian had it <-- if so i haven't heard of it
20:01:35 <olsner> oerjan: how did you come up with this idea of singing swedish songs?
20:02:05 <oerjan> olsner: my father has been a big taube fan for ages
20:03:52 <tswett> Vorpal: I sing in the shower because nobody can hear me.
20:04:05 <tswett> I *just* realized how sad that is.
20:04:59 <oerjan> also much swedish music is just part of norwegian culture. it's traditional.
20:06:29 <oerjan> (i sing norwegian and english songs too, of course. oh and i think i sang hava nagila earlier today :P)
20:07:34 <oerjan> and the chorus to kharoun kharoun, which i remembered the melody of for ages but only recently learned was armenian
20:08:04 <olsner> hmm, hava nagila, I recognize that name
20:08:56 <olsner> oh, must be from some psytrance thing I recognize it then
20:08:57 <oerjan> i recall we learned several hebrew songs back in primary school
20:09:16 <Taneb> "Taneb" has a hebrew etymology, but it's largely accidental
20:15:55 <olsner> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDBnGaB-iKk apparently
20:18:40 <oerjan> olsner: agh! (closes after 20 seconds)
20:24:41 <fizzie> Oh no, an oerjan/olsner discussion. (It's so problematical nickwise.)
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20:25:19 <tswett> while( x --> 0 ) // x goes to 0
20:26:14 <olsner> so now they're in some kind of deep-sea "high" speed "car" (submersible) chase
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20:26:45 <olsner> but afaict they already dropped the nuke somewhere on the sea floor, so I can't tell why they're doing this
20:27:33 <olsner> no, I'm just making this up
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20:28:54 <Vorpal> <oerjan> (i sing norwegian and english songs too, of course. oh and i think i sang hava nagila earlier today :P) <-- nagila being?
20:29:12 <olsner> Vorpal: it will be explained a few lines after that one
20:29:56 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Oh no, an oerjan/olsner discussion. (It's so problematical nickwise.) <-- indeed
20:30:18 <Taneb> It's better than oklopol/oklofok
20:30:49 <Vorpal> <olsner> but afaict they already dropped the nuke somewhere on the sea floor, so I can't tell why they're doing this <-- who? what?
20:30:58 <Vorpal> oh right, explained a bit below
20:31:23 <Vorpal> olsner, what are you actually watching? Or are you making the thing up as you said?
20:31:47 <olsner> I think I missed the part where they explain why they took the nuke in the first place, it's not like the US has a shortage on them
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20:32:22 <olsner> it's fairly famous I think
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20:44:59 <oerjan> Vorpal: Vorpal "“Hava Nagila” (הבה נגילה) (lit. Let us rejoice) is a Hebrew folk song that has become a staple of band performers at Jewish weddings and Bar/Bat Mitzvahs."
20:45:19 <oerjan> so the "hava" isn't swedish either :)
20:45:50 * oerjan knows not why he duplicated Vorpal
20:47:39 * oerjan realized "o helga nat" is probably _the_ song that got him started on trying to pronounce swedish properly.
20:47:59 <fizzie> Next time, try to write it "Vorpal²" for economicalness.
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20:48:49 <oerjan> not so much with the _spelling_ alas
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20:49:34 <oerjan> fizzie: ² is a pain to type :(
20:50:13 <olsner> I'm not sure Jussi Björling speaks swedish the same way swedes do nowadays
20:50:31 <zzo38> Once I mentioned on Haskell program about making a program for astronomy/astrology and they said they cannot be combined. But actually even at least one astronomer has said he would find it useful combined.
20:50:31 <oerjan> olsner: well perhaps not :P
20:50:41 <kmc> compose ^ 2
20:53:07 <oerjan> kmc: you and your compose keys. my norwegian keyboard setting seems to be based on "include absolutely nothing extra, even if that means not using most key combinations for anything."
20:53:08 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
20:53:20 <kmc> but you can set up a compose key can't you?
20:53:24 <kmc> it's super useful
20:53:32 <oerjan> in windows xp? no idea.
20:53:39 <kmc> oh well that's a different matter
20:53:53 <kmc> the idea comes from X although someone has probably tried to implement it for Windows at some point
20:55:06 <Vorpal> * oerjan realized "o helga nat" is probably _the_ song that got him started on trying to pronounce swedish properly. <-- "natt"
20:55:12 <Vorpal> right you said that below
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20:55:29 <Vorpal> <oerjan> fizzie: ² is a pain to type :( <-- altgr-shift-2
20:55:34 <oerjan> i mean, i have ã and õ, but _not_ ~+ eiu
20:55:44 <oerjan> Vorpal: you'd think, but no
20:55:53 <fizzie> PuTTY has I think built-in compose key support. And I'm sure someone's fiddled together a Windows thing, but I don't know of one.
20:55:58 <Vorpal> <kmc> compose ^ 2 <-- doesn't work for me
20:56:09 <Vorpal> I guess becuase my ^ is a dead key
20:56:38 <Vorpal> olsner, something about a holy router is that?
20:57:12 <olsner> maybe it should be "oh holey NAT"
20:58:16 <Vorpal> also you two have too confusingly similar nicks
20:58:18 <oerjan> Vorpal: just punning on the french original, nothing to see here...
20:58:51 <olsner> Vorpal: one is me, the other is oerjan, I have no trouble telling the difference
20:59:07 <oerjan> olsner: we should talk more
21:00:00 <Vorpal> I realise both of you, me and fizzie all have the same nick length
21:00:12 <Vorpal> now we just need kmc to shut up XD
21:00:47 -!- ais523 has quit.
21:00:50 <olsner> oerjan: indeed, I think we should also start talking to ourselves more
21:00:54 <fizzie> There goes another six-letter name.
21:01:05 -!- nooga has joined.
21:01:25 <Vorpal> nortti, you are allowed to speak, your nick has 6 letters
21:01:30 <oerjan> there appears to be a significant correlation between 6 letters and nordic
21:01:34 <fizzie> Possibly there should be a channel mode to enforce nick lengths. (It'd pad the too short ones, and intelligently shorten the long ones.)
21:01:43 <Vorpal> well my old nick was longer
21:01:47 <olsner> "nordic" is also 6 letters ... COINCIDENCE?
21:02:05 <fizzie> fungot: Congratulations on having the right number of characters.
21:02:07 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, the report insists on the need to take socioeconomic aspects into account, in some cases, must we make it possible to offer the same guarantees as the tests carried out on fnord, but i also feel, however, where it would be those who are listening to us.
21:02:36 <oerjan> those poor fnords, always the guinea pigs
21:02:44 <olsner> ok, the movie took a good turn now, the aliens showed up and took someone on board the mother ship
21:03:59 <olsner> but they should've gone there like two and a half hours ago
21:04:03 <Vorpal> nortti, the one olsner was watching
21:04:22 <nortti> olsner: what movie are you watching?
21:04:52 <olsner> oh, now they're doing the humanity on trial thing
21:05:39 <Vorpal> <olsner> oh, now they're doing the humanity on trial thing <-- so cliché
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21:07:28 <fizzie> I think I've heard of that thing. Doesn't it have something to do with water?
21:08:52 <olsner> so it's 2.5h of Das Boot with deep sea diving and submersible chases followed by bits and pieces of the first episode of TNG
21:09:06 * oerjan thinks he saw part of it once
21:09:38 <fizzie> There was a CGI water thing-thing.
21:11:27 <zzo38> Let's play chess with I don't know!
21:11:39 <olsner> one thing I liked though: when the civilian divers met the SEAL divers they didn't have an hour of side quests all about overcoming their differences and proving that each group has something to contribute
21:13:57 <zzo38> Why should there be a channel mode to affect nick lengths? I think that is a bad and useless idea.
21:14:39 <zzo38> Pad the names yourself in messages and/or client configuration setting if you want it
21:15:13 <olsner> would you like to be known as zzo388 or zzo338?
21:16:02 <fizzie> Ah, but the point is that everyone would behave like one big happy family if the artificial divisor of nick length weren't there. Currently there's e.g. a state of bitter war between all "fivers" and the "six club", I believe.
21:16:27 <fizzie> (This is all not true.)
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21:17:16 <zzo38> olsner: "zzo38 " so it has a space at the end
21:17:58 -!- edwardk has joined.
21:22:42 <olsner> maybe I should just keep going and watch the rest of TNG again
21:27:14 <Vorpal> <olsner> one thing I liked though: when the civilian divers met the SEAL divers they didn't have an hour of side quests all about overcoming their differences and proving that each group has something to contribute <-- of course, it was a movie, not an RPG
21:28:30 <olsner> movies do that *all the time* ... often half the movie is about two groups starting out hating but growing to trust each other in the face of adversity
21:28:47 <Vorpal> I guess I don't watch all that many movies
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21:29:56 <fizzie> olsner: If the side quest about overcoming the differences is to kill 30 sea slugs, though, then it might be a RPG instead.
21:31:05 <olsner> the standard operating procedure would be for the seals to be all "puny civilians, we eat people like you for breakfast" and the other ones to be "you stupid jarheads, this diving stuff is complicated and we're experts"
21:31:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, no that would be an MMORPG
21:31:19 <Vorpal> Any decent single player RPG wouldn't do that
21:31:21 <olsner> but then some calamity happens and they are forced to work together, and then they can continue the movie
21:32:04 <Vorpal> olsner, so what did this movie do instead?
21:32:06 <zzo38> Why does edwardk on and then quit in a short time later?
21:32:21 <kmc> Vorpal: what? single player RPGs frequently have some "find all the stars" side quest
21:32:25 <kmc> usually optional
21:32:26 <Vorpal> zzo38, you forgot a verb there
21:32:32 <kmc> maybe you don't like those and so they aren't "decent"
21:32:40 <kmc> no true scotsman would play such a game
21:32:46 <Vorpal> kmc, can't remember any such that I played recently
21:33:15 <fizzie> A single-player RPG could have a fetch quest there instead.
21:33:17 <Vorpal> let me see, which RPGs have I played recently.... bastion, witcher 2, uh... yeah that is about it recently
21:33:44 <zzo38> Play game "No True Scotsman"
21:33:58 <Vorpal> sure oblivion has the nirnroot quest, and skyrim had the crimson nirnroot quest. Fetch quests indeed.
21:34:07 <Vorpal> haven't played either game for a long time though
21:34:21 <olsner> Vorpal: the head civilian was like "btw, this is our boat, I built it and I call the shots" and the SEALs were like "cool, btw we got some extra diving toys, wanna see?"
21:34:39 <Vorpal> olsner, sounds unrealistic though
21:36:55 <olsner> maybe the seals just played nice because they wanted to be set up the bomb
21:37:51 <Vorpal> olsner, that sounded grammatically wrong
21:38:32 <Vorpal> so what did you actually mean
21:39:11 <olsner> nm, I don't think it makes sense in the plot either
21:40:14 <Vorpal> olsner, so there are plot holes?
21:45:37 <tswett> Vorpal: you think oerjan and olsner have confusingly similar nicks? http://i.imgur.com/V4m7M.png
21:45:44 <olsner> but plot holes generally don't bother me
21:46:28 <zzo38> Why are they different colors?
21:50:01 <tswett> zzo38: so I can tell them apart more easily.
21:50:13 <nortti> soundnfury: is you lisp implementation available somewhere? also will it use lexical or dynamic typing?
21:50:26 <zzo38> O, so you put those colors on there yourself.
21:50:39 <tswett> Well, the colors are automatically chosen.
21:51:13 <tswett> Some simple algorithm on the characters in the nick.
21:51:23 <tswett> I think it just takes the sum of all the characters mod 13, or something.
21:51:58 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: not watching it anymore, but The Abyss
21:52:37 <olsner> (humanity passed the trial due to the protagonist's message of love to his wife, everyone lived happily ever after)
21:54:00 <Phantom_Hoover> how did aliens manage to get established in a trench and start setting tests without establishing the human reproductive cycle first
21:54:25 <oerjan> nortti: s/typing/scoping/, me thinks
21:55:03 <nortti> lexical typing would be interesting concept
21:55:18 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, your nick is to long, more than 6 letters
21:55:33 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to Hoover.
21:55:37 <oerjan> Vorpal: it's ok he's a true scotsman.
21:56:06 <Hoover> Does that mean I can go back?
21:56:11 <Hoover> This account's registered.
21:56:20 <oerjan> no. once you go scot, you cannot go back.
21:56:45 <Vorpal> Hoover, you could be Phanto I guess?
21:56:59 -!- Hoover has changed nick to Phanto.
21:57:22 <Vorpal> but on the other hand, you are not from a Nordic country, so I guess it is okay
21:57:31 <Vorpal> oklopol however has an issue
21:58:01 * oerjan swats FireFly -----###
21:58:27 <Phanto> http://what-if.xkcd.com/
21:58:27 <FireFly> what's wrong with seven characters?
21:58:27 <olsner> oklpol or oklopl should be fine though
21:58:31 <Phanto> Oh wow Munroe started doing something worthwhile.
21:58:38 -!- Phanto has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
21:59:09 <Vorpal> FireFly, because fizzie, Vorpal, olsner, oerjan and fungot are all 6 chars, and all from a Nordic country.
21:59:11 <fungot> Vorpal: i am sure this will be included in the debate by december and that you will see when we present them next year to stimulate more innovative forms of work and problems involving the working methods and organisation of pension and social security payments, in so far as to say that a shipyard wishes to reduce noise levels and is not open to the examination of petitions always depends on an adequate presence of human resour
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22:00:38 <oerjan> only fungot has a clear perspective on this
22:00:39 <fungot> oerjan: mr president, on a point of order. you will understand that i cannot speak about the annex to the legislation on the reduction in staffing levels, the existence of technological needs which justify the adaptations and specific measures to end this round of budgetary framing, to forget that this european educational space is a notion which must be defined now.
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22:00:46 <nortti> should I implemen't if, cond or both?
22:00:53 <Vorpal> nortti, in what language
22:01:01 <olsner> nortti: yes, definitely
22:02:04 <oerjan> lisp needs more pattern matching
22:03:17 <oerjan> ...because after doing haskell, using null, car and cdr to decompose lists starts looking primitive.
22:04:05 <nortti> how should I implement this pattern matching?"
22:05:24 <oerjan> as a macro, of course, this _is_ lisp isn't it.
22:05:48 * oerjan may not have thought this very through, although he assumes someone has already done this.
22:06:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, <Phanto> http://what-if.xkcd.com/ <-- that site is awesome
22:07:38 <oerjan> i was thinking something like (case x ((`(tag ,@z) ...) ...)) to steal scheme's quasiquoting in reverse
22:08:52 <oerjan> as an expression, `(tag ,@z) is equivalent to (cons 'tag z)
22:09:17 <oerjan> ` starts a quasiquotation and , interpolates, ,@ interpolates a list
22:10:22 <oerjan> so as a pattern it would match if (eq? (car x) 'tag) and bind z to (cdr x) in the following ...
22:11:10 <oerjan> if you just wanted to match with a constant pattern, you could use ' instead
22:11:32 <nortti> hmm. that sounds kinda interesting but bit hard to implement
22:11:59 <oerjan> there's already that setf thing in CL, i think, which sounds like similar work
22:12:23 * oerjan doesn't actually know all of common lisp, mind you
22:18:35 <nortti> well common lisp include everything and three different kinds of kitchen sinks
22:19:05 * oerjan should maybe check if CL _has_ pattern matching
22:21:37 <oerjan> http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-match/doc/clmatch-api.htm
22:32:53 <nortti> well back to the original question: if, cond or both
22:33:26 <nortti> I'm not implemeting case
22:33:38 <oerjan> it seems like racket's match library does precisely what i thought with ` (but also has many other pattern types)
22:33:49 <oerjan> http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/match.html
22:33:53 <Vorpal> nortti, cond then, and implement if as a macro using cond
22:33:53 <nortti> lis is meant to be simple lisp dialect
22:34:25 <Vorpal> nortti, in scheme I always found cond nicer to use
22:34:53 <Vorpal> but then I'm used to the erlang style if, which is basically a cond
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22:53:03 <olsner> oh my god elliott is here
22:53:05 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving").
22:53:22 <oerjan> darn you spoke and scared him away
22:57:11 <Vorpal> olsner, oerjan: we need more esolang discussions if we are to get elliott back I guess
22:57:47 <olsner> is #esoteric about esolangs?
22:57:48 <oerjan> Vorpal: nah i told him once that the channel was currently on topic and he said it didn't matter
22:58:03 <oerjan> (not in those exact words)
22:58:52 <nortti> could someone explain to me how label worked in mcCarthys original lisp eval?
22:59:54 <oerjan> nortti: hm, is that a label for a goto? i _very_ vaguely recall those were only inside proc's or something
23:00:45 <nortti> also what language are you talking about?
23:01:03 <nortti> lisp doesn't have goto or procs
23:02:33 <oerjan> ...i distinctly vaguely recall reading about a lisp form which i think was named proc and which allowed for spaghetti goto programming of the list of expressions inside
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23:48:12 <nortti_> can anyone recommend me a simple shell?
23:49:57 <nortti_> (or way to build staticaly linked heirloom-sh)