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02:07:19 <kallisti> ais523: Rust looks more-or-less like the "improved C with concepts borrowed from functional programming" I've been looking for .
02:11:21 <kallisti> though some design choices are a bit odd.
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07:08:14 <Sgeo_> WTF
07:08:39 <Sgeo_> The Time Cube site now links to cubicao
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11:10:13 <fizzie> AnotherTest: I saw the IMEC tower construction thing you mentioned, yesterday.
11:10:54 <AnotherTest> fizzie: :)
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12:40:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, do you live at a hotel all that time in Belgium or how does that work?
12:47:15 <Phantom_Hoover> His house in Finland is actually a caravan.
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15:05:56 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's this "apartment-hotel" kind of thing, they have a monthly rate that's noticeably cheaper than per-night hotel costs and a tiny kitchen-alike and so on.
15:06:33 <fizzie> Vorpal: If it were a longer trip we'd have rented a place, but people aren't generally so interested in renting out apartments for just a month, and it'd have been a bigger hassle.
15:06:48 <fizzie> The cost difference for just one month isn't so big anyway.
15:07:52 <fizzie> The university has some visitor apartments too, but those are reasonably booked, and they have this thing of prioritizing more official partners and whatnot.
15:08:14 <fizzie> (And those aren't free either, the hotel is I think only about double the cost.)
15:17:45 <kallisti_> Gregor: why do you forward port 3128 in hackbot?
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15:54:06 <Gregor> kallisti: HTTP proxy
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16:04:45 <kallisti> Gregor: so I've been playing around with having persistent environment variables. but I haven't found a way to do to my liking.
16:05:06 <kallisti> some things you just don't want persistent, but having a long list of --unset options feels wrong too.
16:05:40 <kallisti> but for a bit I had persistent cd and environment variables, using a version-controlled .env file that keeps track of the environment between invocations.
16:05:58 <kallisti> I decided I'd rather not have persistent cd.
16:08:57 <Gregor> Unless there's a first-principles way of defining “some things”, I think you're stuck.
16:09:09 <kallisti> well, PWD, USER, HOME, and OLDPWD
16:09:11 <kallisti> and _
16:09:24 <kallisti> but I doubt that's everything
16:12:24 <kallisti> the way env displays functions is weird
16:12:42 <kallisti> f=() {  echo
16:12:42 <kallisti> }
16:14:43 <kallisti> aha
16:16:17 <Gregor> env... displays functions???
16:16:24 <Gregor> Is that some shell built-in env?
16:16:32 <Gregor> /usr/bin/env certainly can't.
16:16:40 <kallisti> it's a bash thing
16:16:57 <kallisti> try:
16:17:01 <kallisti> f() { echo; }
16:17:03 <kallisti> export -f f
16:17:04 <kallisti> env
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16:22:53 <Taneb> Hello
16:24:27 <Taneb> Wow, I got in the Haskell Weekly News quotes!
16:24:37 <kallisti> you're Haskell famous now!
16:24:47 <Taneb> Yay!
16:24:56 <Taneb> Now I'm Haskell famous, and Northumberland famous
16:24:58 <kallisti> Gregor: looks like declare -p  will display only variables and ignore exported functions
16:25:12 <kallisti> this ensures that, while I can't support exporting functions, they won't break anything either.
16:25:14 <Gregor> Or, /usr/bin/env ;)
16:25:28 <kallisti> that's the env I'm using
16:25:52 <kallisti> I just tried /usr/bin/env, same output
16:25:59 <kallisti> $ builtin env
16:26:03 <kallisti> -bash: builtin: env: not a shell builtin
16:27:02 <kallisti> so it looks like declare -px  is the way to go
16:27:07 <kallisti> if I'm to go at all.
16:29:04 <Gregor> WAT
16:29:06 <Gregor> I'm so confused
16:29:13 <Gregor> I don't even understand how functions CAN be exported.
16:31:07 <kallisti> no idea
16:31:16 <kallisti> h4x
16:33:25 <kallisti> yeah I may just give up on this.
16:33:40 <kallisti> the only immediate purpose I see for a persistent env is to annoy other people by messing it up.
16:34:31 <kallisti> Gregor: also git > hg
16:34:44 <kallisti> > "git" > "hg"
16:34:46 <lambdabot>   False
16:34:49 <kallisti> lies.
16:35:11 <kallisti> you don't have to go lookup the revision number to revert a change
16:35:15 <kallisti> you just `revert HEAD
16:35:27 <kallisti> or `revert HEAD@{1}  for the previous one
16:35:48 <Taneb> Is it bad that when some rules of equivalence were described, my first thought was "Hey, that's a Category!"
16:36:50 <kallisti> why do you have to categorize everything?
16:36:55 <kallisti> why can't you just let it be what it is, man.
16:37:06 <Gregor> I severely doubt that that one, extraordinarily minor advantage can make up for the fact that git has, by a wide margin, the worst UI of any piece of software I have ever had the mispleasure of using.
16:37:09 <Gregor> And I've used HP-UX.
16:37:20 <Taneb> class Category cat => Equivalence cat where rev :: cat a b -> cat b a
16:37:42 <kallisti> Gregor: you know you /do/ actually have to read the manual to use git properly.
16:37:48 <Gregor> Yes, I do.
16:37:52 <Gregor> And that's why it's fucking terrible.
16:38:01 <Gregor> It's so goddamn unintuitive that I have to read the manuals repeatedly.
16:38:02 <kallisti> it's a flexible piece of software.
16:38:10 <kallisti> that comes with a bit of learning curve.
16:38:12 <Gregor> Yes, flexible in the sense that you have to bend over backwards to use it.
16:38:29 <Taneb> Is it the dwarf fortress of software?
16:38:47 <kallisti> I think dwarf fortress would be the dwarf fortress of software...
16:39:00 <kallisti> Gregor: eh, once you get used to it, it's intuitive.
16:39:06 <Taneb> Is it the dwarf fortress of non-game software?
16:39:08 <Gregor> I've used it plenty, in fact.
16:39:09 <kallisti> granted, I haven't done anything complex with merges and branches
16:39:19 <kallisti> but for single-person use it's pretty straightforward.
16:39:21 <Gregor> Until I finally ditched it for hg-git, anyway.
16:39:32 <Gregor> Now I do everything with hg, and my life is much improved.
16:39:57 <kallisti> Gregor: but how do you forward-port local commits to the update upstream head!
16:40:02 <kallisti> *updated
16:40:30 <Gregor> hg rebase
16:40:35 <kallisti> o
16:41:18 <kallisti> Gregor: still, for this usage, using git actually results in an improved UI over hg
16:41:32 <kallisti> because you no longer have to look up the commit hash
16:41:52 <Gregor> I have no idea whether I actually have to look up the commit hash for anything *shrugs*
16:42:08 <Gregor> I think you can use negative numbers or something like that for tip-minus-n.
16:43:02 <kallisti>        revision
16:43:02 <kallisti>               indicates a changeset which can  be  specified  as  a
16:43:02 <kallisti>               changeset  revision  number,  a tag, or a unique sub-
16:43:02 <kallisti>               string of the changeset hash value
16:43:18 <kallisti> unless one of those things includes what you just said
16:43:21 <kallisti> I don't think so
16:43:23 <Gregor> *shrugs*
16:43:42 <Gregor> OK, so you've found the one piece of good corn in the giant steaming festering pile of shit that is git's UI.
16:45:35 <kallisti> if it's any consolation
16:45:45 <kallisti> I haven't found a way to add an --author option to git revert
16:46:36 <kallisti>  I'd have to use --no-commit and then manually commit with the --author option
16:52:38 <kallisti> Gregor: it looks like changing PWD has no effect on umlbox's actual current working directory
16:52:39 <kallisti> oh, looks like PWD never does that.
16:53:01 <Gregor> Yeah, that's not how PWD works.
16:53:03 <Gregor> It's read-only
17:01:52 <Vorpal> Rotating a 3D coordinate system in the fourth dimension should switch it between left and right handedness right?
17:07:05 <fizzie> Not if you rotate it the whole way.
17:10:00 <itidus21> is that the tetris J L problem?
17:10:46 <Taneb> Quite possible
17:10:59 <itidus21> i know theres a C word for this 
17:11:07 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Not if you rotate it the whole way. <-- well obviously
17:11:12 <soundnfury> Gregor: how can you possibly not like git?
17:11:12 <Vorpal> <itidus21> is that the tetris J L problem? <-- ?
17:11:28 <soundnfury> itidus21: Chirality?
17:11:34 <itidus21> thats the one!
17:11:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, what is the name of the 4D equiv of right/left-handedness?
17:11:42 <soundnfury> it's not a C word, it's a chi word
17:11:51 <itidus21> sou ka
17:12:11 <soundnfury> Vorpal: I'm not sure there's a unique equivalent
17:12:20 <Vorpal> soundnfury, oh?
17:12:32 <soundnfury> handedness is a peculiar property of 3 dimensions caused by the existence of a vector cross product
17:12:47 <soundnfury> shared only by 7D which also has a cross product (because octonions yay)
17:13:14 <Gregor> soundnfury: I thought I already explained this. Its UI is so horrendous that I honestly cannot believe that it was created solely by incompetence and not malice.
17:13:19 <Vorpal> hm is that so, but what about the 2D case then, where you can't just rotate the coordinate system between one where x points left, and the other where x points right (in both cases having y point up)
17:13:27 <Vorpal> isn't that a form of handedness too?
17:14:09 <Vorpal> Gregor, I completely agree
17:14:16 <soundnfury> ah, you mean that.  Well, it's because permutations of three basis vectors are defined up to a product of (123) by sign
17:14:32 <soundnfury> and of course permutations of 2 are defined uniquely by sign
17:14:59 <Vorpal> well you should have some similar phenomenon in 4D surely?
17:15:13 <soundnfury> whereas in 4 dimensions you can apply, say, (12)(34) which has positive sign and is not a product of (1234)
17:15:19 <Vorpal> ah...
17:15:27 <soundnfury> there are just too many degrees of freedom
17:15:27 <Vorpal> thinking in 4D is so hard
17:15:38 <kallisti> Gregor: I've got persistent environment working (including exported functions), with some minimal filtering of variables (SHLVL, PWD, and OLDPWD  aren't stored)
17:15:50 <Gregor> kallisti: Sweet :)
17:15:53 <soundnfury> so instead of left- and right- handedness, you have about four cosets in S₄
17:16:01 <kallisti> presumably if you mess up the environment then you can just revert it back.
17:16:03 <Vorpal> soundnfury, S being?
17:16:10 <soundnfury> symettric group
17:16:20 <Vorpal> I don't think I read enough math for this...
17:16:27 <soundnfury> S(n) is the symmetric group on n letters
17:17:00 <soundnfury> so in 2D we had S₂ which is just Z₂, so we can define handedness by a sign
17:17:09 <Vorpal> yep
17:17:23 <Vorpal> and in S_3 we have...?
17:17:39 <soundnfury> in 3D we had S₃ which is D₆, so we have a sign (from the permutation signature) and then the quotient by that is just Z₃
17:17:53 <Vorpal> kallisti, what is that you are working on?
17:17:56 <itidus21> Vorpal: i think it may be best for us humans to begin by thinking in 4d using chess style
17:18:12 <Vorpal> soundnfury, right
17:18:17 <Vorpal> fairly reasonable so far
17:18:28 <Vorpal> itidus21, what do you mean?
17:19:16 <kallisti> Vorpal: I'm adding hackegos sandbox stuff to my perl bot, using git instead of hg, and playing around with possibly new features.
17:19:33 <Vorpal> kallisti, ouch, git
17:19:34 <soundnfury> in 4D we have S₄, we quotient out Z₄ and that leaves something of order 6...
17:19:42 <Vorpal> kallisti, also iirc that sandbox is debian specific
17:19:49 * kallisti doesn't really get the aversion to git
17:19:50 <Vorpal> soundnfury, hm okay
17:19:50 <kallisti> it's not
17:19:54 <kallisti> it's just eas to install on debian
17:19:56 <Vorpal> kallisti, plash?
17:19:59 <kallisti> and i'm running debian anyway so it's okay.
17:19:59 <Vorpal> thought it was
17:20:01 <kallisti> no umlbox
17:20:03 <itidus21> Vorpal: things like chebyshev distance applied to 4d
17:20:07 <Vorpal> kallisti, oh he used plash before
17:20:19 <kallisti> umlbox is gregor's creation.
17:20:21 <Vorpal> right
17:20:33 <Vorpal> itidus21, ?
17:20:54 <itidus21> we need something other than cartesian geometry for thinking in 4d
17:21:01 <Vorpal> why
17:21:07 <Gregor> umlbox shouldn't be appreciably easier to install on Debian than anything else.
17:21:10 <itidus21> because it's too hard the cartesian way
17:21:16 <Gregor> Vorpal: I don't use plash any more (which is Debian-specific), I use umlbox (which is not).
17:21:41 <soundnfury> itidus21: you use abstract linear algebra and formalisms, instead of trying to visualise stuff in your head
17:21:47 <Vorpal> itidus21, what if the 4D problem I want to represent depends on the Euclidean distance?
17:21:50 <soundnfury> because meatware graphics adapter sucks
17:21:59 <Vorpal> soundnfury, indeed
17:22:12 <Vorpal> completely unrelated, anyone here ever used OpenGL ES 2.0?
17:22:36 <Vorpal> I'm wondering how much of my knowledge of OpenGL 3.0 I can carry over to embedded opengl
17:22:39 * soundnfury has convinced himself that S₄/Z₄ is isomorphic to S₃
17:22:41 <itidus21> to begin with, i think one must abandon the notion of applying a meaning to each dimension in order to think in 4d
17:23:13 <itidus21> such as, x dimension being east/west, left/right, horizontal
17:23:21 <soundnfury> so "handedness" in 4D is a permutation on three letters, unlike in 3D when it's 2-valued
17:23:29 <itidus21> y dimension being north/south, up/down, vertical, top/bottom
17:23:43 <soundnfury> itidus21: don't apply meanings to things at all
17:23:45 <fizzie> Vorpal: From the little I recall, it's kind of similar than late OpenGL in that they dropped most of the fixed-function pipeline.
17:23:46 <Vorpal> <soundnfury> itidus21: you use abstract linear algebra and formalisms, instead of trying to visualise stuff in your head <-- quite, but that becomes less useful when you are thinking about handedness
17:23:48 <itidus21> z dimension being in/out, close/far
17:24:16 <kallisti> Gregor: hm, would it be possible to set up ssh to log in to a umlbox instance?
17:24:16 <soundnfury> 4D is simply the space of functions from the four-point space [4] to the real line R
17:24:41 <Vorpal> soundnfury, assuming your functions only return one value
17:24:42 <Vorpal> :P
17:24:44 <Gregor> kallisti: Hrm. In principle, yes. In practice, yikes.
17:24:45 <soundnfury> Vorpal: no, because representation theory and groups and shizzle
17:24:56 <soundnfury> Vorpal: um, definition of function much?
17:25:14 <itidus21> basically i think ideas like, east/west, left/right, horizontal, north/south, up/down, vertical, top/bottom, depth, in/out, close/far, are unhelpful in 4d
17:25:23 <Vorpal> soundnfury, you can have a function that returns a vector, can't you?
17:25:27 <fizzie> Vorpal: I'm under the impression that the shading language is pretty similar, though.
17:25:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, thanks
17:25:46 <kallisti> itidus21: just assign one of your dimensions to "time" and all of those other concepts still make sense.
17:25:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, my opengl 3 knowledge should be pretty useful then.
17:25:55 <soundnfury> Vorpal: yes, but in this case the function's codomain is the real line R I already
17:25:59 <soundnfury> specified that
17:26:13 <soundnfury> kallisti: that's not as helpful as it seems
17:26:28 <itidus21> i prefer to think of finite 4d space as a linear set of cubes
17:26:32 <Vorpal> soundnfury, hm
17:26:37 <soundnfury> if you want to visualise a rotation in 4D, you're stuffed, you can't set theta = omega * t and watch it spin
17:27:16 <soundnfury> Vorpal: a vector is in fact a function from a finite space to a field
17:27:39 <soundnfury> for instance a real 3-vector is a function from the three-point space [3] to R
17:28:13 <itidus21> the problem with infinite 3d space is that you can't line up such cubes
17:28:14 <Vorpal> soundnfury, is it now, so what real value does, for example, (1,2,3) yield?
17:28:16 <soundnfury> we just have this convention of power-associating cartesian direct products to notate the same thing
17:28:42 <itidus21> oops
17:28:43 <fizzie> Vorpal: (1,2,3) will obviously yield either 1, 2 or 3, depending on which of the three possible inputs you give.
17:28:44 <soundnfury> Vorpal: (1,2,3) isn't a member of the three-point space
17:28:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, right, I guess that is one way to see it...
17:28:57 <fizzie> Assuming (1,2,3) is the vector.
17:29:20 <Vorpal> soundnfury, huh? I'm not a mathematician, you completely lost me
17:29:22 <soundnfury> the vector (4,5,6) is the function sending 1 to 4, 2 to 5, and 3 to 6 (treating [3] as {1, 2, 3})
17:29:32 <soundnfury> the three-point space is a set with three elements
17:29:58 <soundnfury> endowed with the discrete topology so that we can talk about topological notions like continuity wrt. functions from it
17:30:01 <Vorpal> soundnfury, how is (1,2,3) any different from (4,5,6)?
17:30:01 <itidus21> in order to visualize in 4d space, you would really need to give up part of your brain
17:30:15 <soundnfury> those are both vectors
17:30:19 <Vorpal> exactly
17:30:23 <soundnfury> the three-point space is {1,2,3}, not (1,2,3)
17:30:26 <soundnfury> it's a set
17:30:52 <itidus21> or maybe not
17:31:02 <soundnfury> you could say that the vector (1,2,3) is the inclusion function from [3] to R, because it maps each x in [3] to the same x in R
17:31:09 <Vorpal> soundnfury, I have no clue what a three-point space is. I don't even know which branch of mathematics that is from
17:31:26 <soundnfury> topology
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17:31:31 <Vorpal> yeah I never studied that
17:31:47 <soundnfury> it's a topological space that as far as you care is just a "set with three elements"
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17:31:55 <soundnfury> which we write as [3] or {1, 2, 3}
17:31:55 <Vorpal> fair enough
17:32:03 <Vorpal> seems a pretty boring set
17:32:42 <itidus21> ok well, what is rotation?
17:33:08 <Vorpal> itidus21, it is easiest to think of as a transformation matrix on a certain form
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17:33:16 <itidus21> a point on it's own cannot rotate, correct?
17:33:17 <Vorpal> I don't know offhand what it looks like in 4D
17:33:32 <itidus21> i guess a point can only be rotated around another point
17:33:37 <Vorpal> itidus21, sure it can, you can't tell that anything happened though :P
17:33:50 <Vorpal> rotate (0,0,0) and you still get (0,0,0)
17:34:24 <Vorpal> <itidus21> i guess a point can only be rotated around another point <-- i.e. you mean a vector between those two points
17:34:40 <itidus21> yeah.. i mean.. only a vector can be rotated?
17:35:16 <itidus21> but is a point a vector? :D cries
17:35:20 <itidus21> fuck math
17:35:26 <itidus21>  ;_;
17:35:30 <Vorpal> I assume you mean in linear algebra?
17:35:42 <soundnfury> itidus21: a rotation is an affine map on a vector space with an invariant space of codimension 2 and a positive determinant.
17:35:45 <soundnfury> So there.
17:35:45 <itidus21> i mean in relational algebra
17:35:48 <itidus21>  ;_;
17:36:14 <Vorpal> soundnfury, affine? Isn't it linear?
17:36:21 <Vorpal> Assuming you rotate around origo of course
17:36:25 <Vorpal> and where else would you rotate
17:36:33 <soundnfury> Vorpal: I chose not to make that precise assumption
17:36:38 <itidus21> im just kidding by the way
17:37:21 <soundnfury> if you change "affine" to "linear" you then get the definition of a rotation about the origin
17:37:28 <itidus21> i don't hate math that is
17:37:52 <Vorpal> soundnfury, that is good though, you can just do a translation before, and another after and you can rotate around any point
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17:39:43 <itidus21> <Vorpal> itidus21, sure it can, you can't tell that anything happened though :P <--- cool
17:40:08 <Vorpal> soundnfury, btw, I hope I never have to do a flight simulator, fuck quaternions.
17:40:37 <itidus21> 4d translation is easy enough
17:40:39 <soundnfury> Vorpal: quaternions are fucking AWESOME
17:40:50 <Vorpal> soundnfury, well I would have to try and learn how they work
17:40:52 <Vorpal> :/
17:40:56 <itidus21> oh wait i ill considered this
17:41:18 <itidus21> nah easy enough
17:41:24 <Vorpal> itidus21, it is just a 5x5 matrix with a homogeneous coordinates I presume?
17:41:37 <Vorpal> coordinate*
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17:41:56 <itidus21> my method of visualizing a 4d finite space is a line of cubes
17:42:15 <itidus21> ^cubes made of smaller cubes
17:42:18 <soundnfury> itidus21: you already said that
17:42:21 <itidus21> yup
17:42:32 <itidus21> and so.. in that way, its really very easy to imagine a translation
17:43:01 <itidus21> translating along w is simply like a passenger going from carriage to carriage in a train
17:43:21 <Vorpal> fun fact: you can convert Celsius to Fahrenheit using a 2x2 matrix (homogeneous coordinates)
17:43:30 <nortti> how?
17:43:34 <Vorpal> I forgot the details of how you had to set it up
17:43:51 <Vorpal> but since Celsius to Fahrenheit is an affine transformation on R
17:43:52 <Vorpal> it works
17:44:01 <Vorpal> (that is R_1)
17:44:20 <Vorpal> nortti, just consider the temperature to be an 1-dimensional vector :)
17:44:43 <nortti> oh
17:44:45 <Vorpal> well, 2D, you have the homogeneous coordinate
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17:45:57 <Vorpal> nortti, it shouldn't be too hard to figure out
17:46:03 <itidus21> but in order to translate...
17:46:06 <itidus21> it doesn't work
17:46:10 <itidus21> ^rotate
17:46:14 <Vorpal> what doesn't?
17:46:30 <Vorpal> oh your abstraction
17:46:31 <Vorpal> right
17:46:38 <Vorpal> which is why it is useless for that
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17:46:49 <itidus21> well.. in order to rotate, i would try to basically create a 2d plane
17:47:03 <itidus21> but.. i can't 
17:47:12 <Vorpal> you just have to stop imagining what it looks like
17:47:16 <Vorpal> it is not possible
17:47:19 <fizzie> Vorpal: You need something like [C;1] as "input" (where C is the temperature in Celsius), though.
17:47:26 <Vorpal> unless you are on LSD or something
17:47:30 <Vorpal> (don't do drugs, kids)
17:47:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, well obviously: <Vorpal> well, 2D, you have the homogeneous coordinate
17:47:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, also, what a weird way to write a vector
17:48:03 <Vorpal> surely you mean (C,1)
17:48:04 <Vorpal> :P
17:48:29 <fizzie> It's the MATLAB matrix notation.
17:48:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, and then at the end you get (x,w) and you get F by dividing x by w
17:48:54 <Vorpal> I think
17:49:00 <fizzie> [a b c; d e f; g h i] being a square matrix with a, b and c on the first row.
17:49:04 <Vorpal> ouch
17:49:14 <fizzie> You can get [F,1] directly, I'm pretty sure.
17:49:15 <Vorpal> Well don't do that syntax on me, I'm not used to it.
17:49:20 <Vorpal> you can do GLSL if you want
17:49:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, really?
17:49:32 <Vorpal> how
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17:51:00 <fizzie> To use the notation you don't like, [a b; 0 1]*[C; 1] = [a*c+b; 1].
17:51:14 <fizzie> a*C+b to not lose the uppercase.
17:51:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, a an b being?
17:51:17 <fizzie> Then just make a and b the numbers you need.
17:51:23 <itidus21> my row of cubes would look something like  w-  [+]/  [+]/  [+]/  [+]/  w+
17:51:28 <fizzie> Whatever the Celsius-to-Fahrenheit conversion numbers are.
17:51:32 <Vorpal> hm okay
17:51:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, I remember I worked them out (for the divide-by-w case) and they ended up as some simple ratios
17:51:59 <Vorpal> like 3/5 or some such
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17:53:20 <Vorpal> too lazy to work them out again, also I don't remember exactly how atm, would need to look it up. (Damn you libraries making me forget how to do this by hand when doing OpenGL)
17:53:38 <fizzie> Certainly you *can* do that. But you could also set the matrix up so that it returns a proper homogenous (F,1) vector directly.
17:53:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, is this only in the 1D case?
17:54:22 <Vorpal> or why do we not do that in OpenGL, instead of dividing by w at the end to get the projection
17:54:59 <fizzie> No; you can obviously get any affine transformation from [x; y; 1] to [p; q; 1] by multiplying with a matrix [a b c; d e f; 0 0 1], with a, b, c, d, e, f being the parameters of your affine transform.
17:55:40 <fizzie> I seem to recall some SVG stuff only takes the two upper rows of the matrix for that reason.
17:55:51 <fizzie> It doesn't work for projection matrices since the projection isn't an affine transformation.
17:56:03 <Vorpal> ah
17:56:10 <Vorpal> right
17:56:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, what sort of transformation is the projection then...
17:57:07 <Vorpal> hm
17:57:14 <fizzie> Well, it depends on what you put in your matrix.
17:58:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about a perspective projection? And then what about a orthographic projection?
18:01:13 <fizzie> Well, with glFrustum i.e. perspective projection you get [a 0 b 0; 0 c d 0; 0 0 e f; 0 0 -1 0]*[x; y; z; w] = [a*x + b*z; c*y + d*z; e*z + f*w; -z] and then that turns into [-a*x/z - b; -c*y/z - d; -e-f/z; 1] and that nets you the /z you of course need in a perspective projection.
18:01:38 <fizzie> Here a, b, c, d, e, f are suitable parameters derived from the left, right, top, bottom, zNear, zFar given.
18:02:05 <fizzie> (That matrix was from man glFrustum, incidentally.)
18:04:14 <fizzie> And normally of course the input w=1 and that bit with the z coordinate of the output is to map [zNear, zFar] into the proper range for the depth buffer, which is [-1,1] or something like that.
18:04:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, glFrustum is fixed function right?
18:04:36 <Vorpal> I never worked with that old API
18:04:41 <fizzie> Yes, it's one of the old ones.
18:04:46 <Vorpal> what does it mean in modern terms :P
18:05:03 <fizzie> Sets the projection matrix to that.
18:05:07 <Vorpal> ah
18:05:16 <fizzie> The projection matrix being one of the things that gets automagically applied.
18:07:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, right
18:11:34 <fizzie> I seem to recall the documentation is written as if the system would first multiply the geometry with the modelview matrix, then the projection matrix, and then there was maybe a third one, but of course a reasonable implementation is free to multiply those all together.
18:12:27 <fizzie> Well, maybe not the third (viewport matrix) since it happens after the /w thing.
18:13:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, what if you are doing stuff in between the modelview and the projection though
18:13:26 <Vorpal> can't think of something to there at the top of my head though
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18:13:34 <fizzie> I don't think you can do stuff there with the fixed-function pipeline.
18:13:41 <Vorpal> right
18:14:02 <Vorpal> why would anyone code for the fixed-function pipeline these days
18:17:34 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokoko
18:17:35 <oklopol> sup
18:18:40 <Taneb> That reminds me
18:18:43 <Taneb> Thanks, oerjan
18:18:52 <Taneb> *future/past oerjan
18:18:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm which shaders do OpenGL ES even have? Just vertex and fragment? I'm unable to find the docs atm...
18:19:04 <Taneb> Hey, oklopol 
18:19:22 <Vorpal> any tessellation shader?
18:19:24 <soundnfury> hey Taneb did you ever have a go at programming in Eniuq?
18:19:26 <oklopol> hey taneb.
18:19:30 <Taneb> Nah
18:19:33 <Taneb> Um
18:19:34 <Taneb> No
18:19:42 <Taneb> I've been in Durham since Monday
18:19:48 <Taneb> I'll have another look at it now
18:19:54 <oklopol> yea Taneb are you the tangent of e flat
18:20:12 <Taneb> ?
18:20:55 <oklopol> it's a joke for mathematician-musicians with a retarded sense of humor
18:20:58 <Vorpal> god dammit, the android documentation for the relevant classes are mostly empty. Presumably you are supposed to refer to the OpenGL ES 2.0 spec instead to figure out what the functions do
18:21:17 <soundnfury> oklopol: that would be tanE♭
18:21:32 <soundnfury> completely different capitalisation and moar unicodez
18:21:38 <Vorpal> :D
18:21:46 <oklopol> i can't pronounce that
18:22:04 <Taneb> Oh, I get that!
18:22:06 <Taneb> :)
18:22:08 <Vorpal> oklopol, how do you normally pronounce E♭?
18:22:13 <Taneb> I mis-parsed tangent
18:22:26 <oklopol> i'm referring to finger pronunciation
18:22:40 <Vorpal> soundnfury, I can translate that as a single word in Swedish
18:22:45 <Vorpal> but not in English :/
18:24:11 <olsner> Vorpal: it does make more sense to refer to the already-existing OpenGL spec instead of incorrectly duplicating all information
18:24:32 <Vorpal> olsner, true, but it is more annoying
18:24:50 <soundnfury> Vorpal: it's pronounced "S" and spelt "Es" in German, if that helps
18:25:07 <Vorpal> soundnfury, something like that in Swedish too
18:25:07 * soundnfury likes "H" for B♮
18:25:12 <Vorpal> Ess rather
18:25:20 <Vorpal> soundnfury, I hate that
18:25:32 <Vorpal> it is mostly found in older literature
18:25:51 <AnotherTest> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc1928.txt - does anyone know where I can find what should happen *after* CONNECT  has been done (forwarding should be specified right?)
18:25:57 <mroman> Is that b non-modified?
18:26:11 <mroman> one tone beneath c?
18:26:23 <mroman> We call that 'h' around here.
18:26:28 <mroman> and a half-tone down is 'b'
18:26:40 <mroman> which makes b == ais 
18:26:43 <mroman> and h == ces
18:26:49 <Vorpal> yes, that is how it is in older literature in Swedish too
18:26:58 <Vorpal> nowdays we do it the logical way
18:27:22 <mroman> and that would be?
18:27:37 <fizzie> Vorpal: I'd guess just vertex and fragment shaders, yes. But I'm no ogles expert.
18:27:47 <mroman> cdefgabc?
18:28:07 <mroman> and distinguishing between b-b and b-flat?
18:28:13 <fizzie> WebGL is IIRC OpenGL ES 2.0 -based.
18:28:56 <mroman> our system uses cdefgahc
18:29:15 <fizzie> I think they do H in Finland too. At least it was that way back in music lessons in school.
18:29:19 <soundnfury> It's interesting when you get a part marked "Trumpet in B" and you wonder "Does it mean B♭ or H?  Is this at-pitch or do I have to transpose up a semitone?"
18:29:28 <Vorpal> anyway H was due to someone misreading the original idea iirc
18:29:46 <mroman> c,cis,d,e,f,fis,g,gis,a,ais,c,cis or c,des,d,e,f,ges,g,a,b,c,des
18:30:08 <soundnfury> if you have a note "cis" you have to have one called "trans" as well
18:30:14 <soundnfury> isomers ftw
18:30:37 <mroman> Trumpets usually are Bb then ;)
18:30:40 <itidus21> with all the talk about donkey kong, i've never heard anyone actually comment on the way that mario's footsteps play a melody
18:30:43 <mroman> but there also trumpets in C and D of course.
18:30:57 <mroman> or is it H
18:30:59 <itidus21> maybe not a very exciting melody
18:31:02 <mroman> now you've confused me :)
18:31:11 <itidus21> but .. i have broken enough topics tonight
18:31:12 <soundnfury> mroman: true.  But I actually play the cornet, which is almost never in C or D.  Sometimes in E♭ though.
18:31:22 <soundnfury> But usually B♭
18:31:30 <mroman> Bb
18:31:43 <mroman> but on my tone measure thing I have to set it to two b's
18:31:45 <fizzie> mroman: Is ais523 in there somewhere too? 
18:31:55 <mroman> which is weird.
18:31:59 <Vorpal> mroman, in Sweden we do (complete list): c/biss, ciss/dess, d, diss/ess, e/fess, f/eiss, fiss/gess, g, giss/ass, a, aiss/bess, b/cess
18:32:32 <soundnfury> From time to time I get horn parts, which are usually in F but sometimes in Es or even As (A♭)
18:32:50 <mroman> huh
18:32:51 <mroman> weird.
18:33:05 <soundnfury> if you play trumpet and horn parts in an orchestra, you have to be able to transpose ;)
18:33:20 <Vorpal> <soundnfury> It's interesting when you get a part marked "Trumpet in B" and you wonder "Does it mean B♭ or H?  Is this at-pitch or do I have to transpose up a semitone?" <-- just count the number of # or ♭ at the start of the score?
18:33:35 <Vorpal> At least that should work for piano music, does it work differently for trumpet music?
18:33:38 <mroman> My flugelhorn is Bb
18:33:38 * soundnfury once played in Beethoven's 7th, trumpet in D, having seen the part only a couple of hours before
18:33:45 <mroman> measured against C, 442hz
18:33:48 <Vorpal> mroman, what is that instrument in English?
18:33:58 <mroman> It's called Flugelhorn in English.
18:34:01 <soundnfury> Vorpal: unfortunately, orchestral trumpet parts often don't have key signatures
18:34:03 <mroman> And Flügelhorn in German :)
18:34:06 <Vorpal> soundnfury, ouch
18:34:14 <Vorpal> mroman, okaay
18:34:27 <fizzie> Vorpal: GLSL ES spec only speaks of vertex and fragment processors. But OpenGL ES 3.0 (which should be out any day now, I guess, this year anyway) is supposed to be based on (regular) OpenGL 3.3, so I suppose it might have some geometry shaders.
18:34:30 <itidus21> finally i can say Flugelhorn in english
18:35:01 <mroman> ah ok.
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18:35:09 <mroman> the b on my measure thing is a real b
18:35:14 <mroman> as Bb is one tone benath C
18:35:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, I care for tessellation shaders, not geometry ones.
18:35:29 <soundnfury> Vorpal: I once had a part for trumpet in A, which would have been in C... that means, I was transposing it into seven flats, woo
18:35:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway, that won't help when working against current mobile devices.
18:36:05 <fizzie> Vorpal: Isn't that just a use case for a geometry shader? Though I'm not terribly current on modern OpenGL.
18:36:10 * soundnfury gets out his garklein-flötlein (which is in C)
18:36:12 <Vorpal> I guess there will be hw support for it maybe next year, unless existing hardware can support it in theory?
18:36:28 <fizzie> Geometry shaders are those things that can create new primitives.
18:36:33 <Vorpal> And then you need to wait maybe 5 years or so before it becomes common enough that it is worth requiring.
18:37:08 <itidus21> Vorpal: theres better ways to spend life than providing 3d apps to mobile market 
18:37:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, my experience is that geometry shaders are rather slow for doing that. It being more efficient to just make a larger array of vertex data.
18:37:18 <itidus21> such as swimming in money for example
18:37:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, tessellation shaders don't suffer that problem, presumably because they are more restricted. 
18:37:34 <oklopol> "Vorpal � nowdays we do it the logical way" lolol
18:37:56 <oklopol> and yeah h is used in finland
18:38:00 <Vorpal> <itidus21> Vorpal: theres better ways to spend life than providing 3d apps to mobile market  <-- Right?
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18:38:35 <itidus21> the answer is not to make a console which can play mobile apps on a tv with a gamepad
18:38:49 <Vorpal> indeed not, I don't care for consoles
18:38:51 <Vorpal> I don't use them
18:38:58 <oklopol> "mroman � c,cis,d,e,f,fis,g,gis,a,ais,c,cis or c,des,d,e,f,ges,g,a,b,c,des" what?
18:39:16 <Vorpal> oklopol, he forgot the black key between d and e
18:39:25 <mroman> oh
18:39:26 <mroman> yeah
18:39:35 <mroman> my bad.
18:39:51 <Vorpal> oklopol, presumably those backwards people in whatever country he lives in don't understand how it works
18:39:53 <mroman> dis or es that'd be
18:39:57 <Vorpal> so they write their music without it ;)
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18:40:51 <itidus21> mroman: you forgot dess/gauss
18:41:04 <oklopol> Vorpal: that's one thing he forgot, yes
18:41:16 <Vorpal> oklopol, right, I didn't bother to read further
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18:41:34 <Vorpal> itidus21, gauss?
18:41:37 <Vorpal> what is that
18:41:42 <Vorpal> gess or giss?
18:42:01 <mroman> g-sharp or g-b ;)?
18:42:06 <oklopol> that's the problem with this system, it makes no sense so people make mistakes very easily.
18:42:15 <itidus21> yes it was a "mistake"
18:42:19 <mroman> oklopol: ?
18:42:25 <mroman> The tone system makes perfect sense.
18:42:33 <Vorpal> oklopol, I don't /think/ I missed anything when I listed the Swedish names
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18:42:36 <Vorpal> not 100% sure though
18:42:40 <itidus21> Vorpal: gauss is a mathematician
18:42:40 <oklopol> perfectly no sense, yes
18:42:47 <Vorpal> itidus21, so it was a joke?
18:42:52 <mroman> What does not make sense?
18:42:57 <itidus21> yup.
18:43:03 <oklopol> Vorpal: you didn't
18:43:35 <itidus21> really not much of a joke
18:43:50 <fizzie> Vorpal: Tessellation shaders seem to be an OpenGL 4.0 thing, so I wouldn't count them being even in ES 3.0, though it's of course possible. And yes, you might have to wait a while for hardware support. Though e.g. the ARM Mali T-604 (which is in Galaxy Note 10.1, due out in a week and a half) seems to claim ES 3.0 support already.
18:43:54 <oklopol> mroman: it's retarded.
18:44:03 <mroman> What and why?
18:44:24 <oerjan> <Taneb> Thanks, oerjan <-- yw.  for what?
18:44:49 <oklopol> for instance it teaches people that C major is "easier" than D major.
18:44:57 <oklopol> and F# is just fucking crazy
18:45:12 <mroman> What's "easier" supposed to mean?
18:45:20 <Taneb> oerjan, reminding me about the Thue-Morse sequence
18:45:22 <oerjan> oklopol: well it's functional, of course it's crazy
18:45:24 <oklopol> i have no idea, i use the sensible system.
18:45:33 <oklopol> the fucking integers
18:45:33 <oerjan> Taneb: ah.
18:45:37 <itidus21> i knew there was a connection between functional programming and retarded musical notation
18:45:47 <mroman> ah
18:45:59 <oerjan> itidus21: puns connect all, man
18:45:59 <oklopol> there's a reason guitarrists prefer tabs, they make sense
18:46:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm
18:46:09 <oklopol> if you move one note up, you move your finger one note up
18:46:18 <mroman> Well, C major has no bs and no sharps
18:46:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about the CPU in Samsung Galaxy S3?
18:46:31 <Vorpal> and how do you check if that is the case
18:46:37 <oklopol> yes, the standard notation is great if you write everything in C major.
18:46:40 <Vorpal> err GPU
18:46:42 <Vorpal> not CPU
18:46:43 <mroman> which makes it easier because you don't have to rember them
18:46:50 <mroman> or infer them using tone distances.
18:47:10 <oerjan> i don't see what's retarded about the notation, if you use a keyboard
18:47:16 <Vorpal> oh right, that is a Mali-400MP
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18:47:38 <oklopol> oerjan: as long as it's in C major, nothing.
18:47:43 <Vorpal> hm nope
18:47:46 <fizzie> Vorpal: WP "Mali (GPU)" lists ES 3.0 only for the new T604 and T658.
18:47:48 <mroman> oklopol: What's the problem with d major?
18:47:49 <oklopol> and have a transpose button
18:47:50 <mroman> it has two bs, so?
18:47:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh well
18:48:00 <mroman> eh
18:48:02 <mroman> two sharps
18:48:14 <oerjan> oklopol: um you realize the unadorned letters match the white keys, i assume
18:48:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, interesting that it list renderscript for that as well, that is cool I guess.
18:48:21 <oklopol> mroman: it has two sharps so it's two harder. i've met decent musicians that really think like this.
18:48:36 <oklopol> unadorned?
18:48:39 <mroman> Well, it is.
18:48:44 <mroman> You have to memorize how many sharps it has
18:48:47 <oklopol> well okay
18:48:52 <oklopol> i guess i know what that is
18:48:55 <mroman> so that if you encounter an f, you still know that it is a fis and not an f
18:49:03 <oklopol> oerjan: in C major, yes.
18:49:14 <mroman> it's not that hard, but I get why one could consider it harder
18:49:28 <oklopol> you have to memorize how many sharps it has and where they are
18:49:41 <mroman> exactly.
18:49:46 <mroman> not a big deal imo.
18:49:52 <oklopol> and people spend years learning this when they could just learn the fucking integers
18:50:02 <fizzie> I am a fis.
18:50:05 <mroman> integers?
18:50:08 * oerjan swats oklopol -----###
18:50:12 <itidus21> hz?
18:50:15 <oklopol> the integers, yes
18:50:22 <mroman> And that is?
18:50:25 <mroman> Every tone has a number?
18:50:28 <oklopol> yes
18:50:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, well the ARM page only lists OpenGL ES 2.0 for T604
18:50:33 <oklopol> put 0 somewhere.
18:50:53 <mroman> yeah and?
18:51:00 <oklopol> and that's your notation
18:51:06 <mroman> now I have to memorize tones as integers?
18:51:15 <mroman> and how do you write how long that 0 is?
18:51:15 <Vorpal> but it seems it is planned for those new higher end ones
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18:51:18 <Vorpal> oh well
18:51:24 <oklopol> yeah, you have to remember that first note is 0, the second is 1, the third is 2 etc
18:51:39 <soundnfury> mroman: you don't.  You only use it for shitty instruments like guitars that just ring as long as they ring
18:51:41 <oklopol> mroman: i usually use 0.
18:51:48 <oklopol> that's a dot at the end, not a perio
18:51:49 <oklopol> d
18:51:54 <itidus21> <oklopol> yes, the standard notation is great if you write everything in C major. <-- enum notes = {c,cis,d,e,f,fis,g,gis,a,ais,c,cis or c,des,d,e,f,ges,g,a,b,c,des};
18:51:54 <mroman> First
18:52:00 <mroman> You cant assign every tone a number
18:52:05 <mroman> so
18:52:07 <mroman> 0 is C?
18:52:10 <mroman> and 1 is cis?
18:52:11 <mroman> 2 is d?
18:52:17 <itidus21> i added the <--
18:52:28 <itidus21> as a pun on write everything in C
18:52:34 <oklopol> mroman: yes
18:52:45 <mroman> You do recognize why this system is flawed?
18:52:46 <Taneb> ais should be 523
18:52:48 <oklopol> no
18:53:09 <soundnfury> Taneb: are you perchance a nethack player?
18:53:15 <Taneb> Nah
18:53:17 <mroman> You just assume half-tones steps
18:53:24 <Taneb> But ais523 is a regular in here?
18:53:28 <mroman> even though there are quarter-tones steps
18:53:31 <mroman> and more
18:53:34 <mroman> that'd make
18:53:36 <mroman> 1.5?
18:53:37 <Taneb> I tried to play nethack, but I'm not very good at it
18:53:40 <soundnfury> itidus21: enum tags should typically be in uppercase and begin with FOO_ for enum foo
18:53:49 <soundnfury> because they don't have their own namespace unlike struct tags
18:53:59 <oklopol> if you need them, come up with a notation for them.
18:54:02 <mroman> and that makes memorizing majors and minors just plain PITA
18:54:10 <soundnfury> Taneb: is he?  I don't recall seeing him here
18:54:22 <oklopol> memorizing?
18:54:26 <mroman> There is a system behind those bs and sharps
18:54:30 <Taneb> I've... never encountered him outside this channel
18:54:32 <oklopol> what the fuck do you need to memorize
18:54:43 <Taneb> I know he plays nethack a lot, he tried to teach me
18:54:57 <mroman> oklopol: D major has two sharps
18:54:58 <soundnfury> Taneb: I recognise him from #nethack
18:54:58 <Taneb> `quote ais523
18:55:05 <mroman> so that tells me which tones it contains.
18:55:07 <HackEgo> 28) <ais523> after all, what are DVD players for? \ 87) <ais523> so a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.com might be self-relative, but a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.l.com always means a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.l.com.? \ 88) <ais523> let's put that in the HackEgo quotes files, just to completely mystify anyone who looks back along them in the future \ 95) <ais523> (still, whatever possessed anyone to invent the N-Gage?) \ 96) <ais523> theory:
18:55:12 <itidus21> `log ais523
18:55:30 <itidus21> i didnt know the 523 fwiw
18:55:35 <oklopol> the system behind those bs and sharps is that when you add 7 to {0, 2, 4, 5, 7, 9, 11}, only one number changes, and this holds by induction.
18:55:44 <HackEgo> No output.
18:55:48 <oklopol> and adding 7 happens to be a natural thing in music
18:55:50 <itidus21> `log ais523
18:55:57 <oklopol> taken (mod 12)
18:56:07 <HackEgo> 2009-03-17.txt:21:14:16: <ais523> just checked, it's calling /usr/lib/llvm/gcc-4.2/libexec/gcc/i486-linux-gnu/4.2.1/collect2
18:56:25 <soundnfury> oklopol: yes, but the point is with the "integers!" system, you have to memorise {0, 2, 4, 5, 7, 9, 11}
18:56:28 <oklopol> that's a great observation, and it's useful to know, but basing the whole notation on it is really, really stupid.
18:56:44 <oklopol> two sharps tells you which tones it contains?
18:56:47 <oklopol> what do you mean?
18:57:00 <soundnfury> like, what's a fifth above 0?  Oh, it's 7, that's random
18:57:08 <mroman> two shaprs is f-sharp and c-sharp
18:57:20 <soundnfury> a minor seventh is 10, what is this shit
18:57:21 <mroman> so it's d -> d with f-sharp and c-sharp
18:57:23 <soundnfury> etc. etc.
18:58:30 <mroman> It would work using integers of course
18:58:41 <mroman> but I wouldn't say that it is for the better.
18:58:50 <oklopol> D is two sharps because you need to jump two fifths up to get there from C and the first sharps are f and c versus with my system transposing two steps up means you move two steps up.
18:58:54 <oklopol> which is easier?
18:59:12 <soundnfury> so if you want to do even the shallowest of analyses, in tab you can't
18:59:16 <oklopol> you don't have to remember *anything*
18:59:28 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:59:30 <soundnfury> oklopol: how long does it take to work out whether {2 5 9} is a major or a minor chord?
18:59:41 <soundnfury> and what about {2 5 10}?
18:59:59 <soundnfury> whereas if I say "D F A" and "D F B♭", it's much easier
19:00:09 <mroman> Well
19:00:12 <soundnfury> they're D minor and B♭ major, and it's totally obvious
19:00:20 <mroman> Esperanto is easier than english
19:00:20 <soundnfury> you don't even have to compute anything mod 12
19:00:26 <oklopol> it's a great system for the concert pianist, but for a casual user or someone playing an instrument not built on the C major scale, it's a needless PITA.
19:00:36 <mroman> But people don't seem to switch to it :(
19:00:44 <soundnfury> it's a great system for anyone who wants to /understand/ the music they're playing
19:00:57 <mroman> oklopol: I hardly can imagine it being that hard to learn @the current system
19:01:00 <oklopol> true, i'm not touching this aspect, i just prefer calling retarded things retarded and leaving it at that.
19:01:33 <soundnfury> if you're going to play off tablature, you might as well just take yourself out of the loop and strap a MIDI controller to your instrument
19:02:04 <soundnfury> because you're not going to be producing meaningful expression if the notes are coming at you as a bunch of numbers
19:02:06 -!- pikhq has joined.
19:02:11 <oklopol> then you have either not tried to learn it, learned it in about 6 years through usage as a kid, or are smart.
19:02:12 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
19:02:42 <soundnfury> I guess I'm smart then, because it didn't take anything /like/ 6 years to learn
19:03:05 <mroman> Five lessons of flute playing and you got the system
19:03:10 <mroman> well enough for casual use.
19:03:19 <oklopol> i hated it from the beginning because it made no sense, so i never really became fluent in it, i just usually read the score and played from memory so i wouldn't have to look at that horrible shit
19:03:21 <mroman> Not the harmony theory kinda use.
19:03:37 <mroman> I've playde 5 years in an orchester and I have no clue about harmony theory stuff.
19:03:42 <mroman> *played
19:03:55 -!- azaq23 has joined.
19:04:07 -!- azaq23 has quit (Max SendQ exceeded).
19:04:27 -!- elliott___ has joined.
19:04:35 -!- azaq23 has joined.
19:04:37 <elliott___> hi, I'm in here so I know when certain people come online, ignore me
19:04:49 <oklopol> i don't know any harmony theory either
19:04:51 <mroman> And most regular musicians not studying music have no clue either.
19:05:15 <oklopol> perhaps i would agree it's beautiful if someone showed a theoretical reason for it.
19:05:21 <Vorpal> elliott___, HELLO!
19:05:27 <elliott___> Vorpal: no
19:05:30 <mroman> Well
19:05:41 <mroman> The system stays because people are used to it.
19:05:43 <Vorpal> elliott___, come on, there is no way we are going to ignore you
19:05:53 <mroman> Like americans to their stupid system of distance measurements ;)
19:05:58 <oklopol> apart from the trivial set theoretic lemma which i have heard trained musicians praise in music class all my life ofc
19:05:59 <Vorpal> elliott___, we like you far too much
19:06:01 <Taneb> elliott___, you seem to have a lot of underscores after your name
19:06:01 <mroman> which makes no sense at all .
19:06:08 <elliott___> Vorpal: this channel is boring, though
19:06:11 <elliott___> Taneb: yes, I am avoiding someone
19:06:20 <Taneb> Aah
19:06:22 <mroman> Also
19:06:24 <Vorpal> elliott___, can you recommend any less boring channel?
19:06:25 <Taneb> May I ask who?
19:06:32 <mroman> a mile is different in probably every country that has that term :)
19:06:33 <oklopol> is it me? :((((((((((
19:06:38 <elliott___> Taneb: you don't know them
19:06:40 <oklopol> it's me i know it is :(
19:06:41 <elliott___> Vorpal: not really
19:06:41 <Taneb> Okay
19:06:43 <mroman> and with what thing you travel.
19:06:45 <elliott___> it's oklopol
19:06:48 <elliott___> (it's not oklopol)
19:06:52 <oklopol> i KN... oh.
19:06:54 <itidus21> if they came here, he probably wouldn't be hiding here
19:07:02 <Taneb> elliott___, I made it into the Haskell Weekly News quote list!
19:07:09 <soundnfury> oklopol: what set theoretic lemma?
19:07:12 <Vorpal> elliott___, just use an /ignore on whoever it is?
19:07:15 <mroman> Taneb: link?
19:07:15 <elliott___> Taneb: I saw!
19:07:19 <soundnfury> (the circle of fifths?)
19:07:26 <elliott___> Taneb: you will be the next elliott
19:07:30 <elliott___> or was it the next shachaf
19:07:38 <mroman> My dream is to upload a package to cabal once :)
19:07:38 <elliott___> one of us had quotes in subsequent issues for aaages
19:07:40 <mroman> eh
19:07:42 <Taneb> mroman: http://contemplatecode.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/haskell-weekly-news-issue-236.html
19:07:43 <mroman> *to hackage once
19:07:48 <Taneb> mroman, way ahead of you
19:07:52 <Taneb> @hackage family-tree
19:07:53 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/family-tree
19:08:04 <Taneb> thalliott___.
19:08:08 <Taneb> It seems to be shachaf
19:08:46 <oklopol> "<soundnfury> like, what's a fifth above 0? Oh, it's 7, that's random" only random because you're used to the retarded system, it's seven half-tones which i guess is fitting because you're a half-wit.
19:08:49 <elliott___> the secret is that most of the hwn quotes are bad
19:09:00 <Taneb> Who chooses them?
19:09:04 <Taneb> Is it oklopol?
19:09:07 <soundnfury> oklopol: um, what?
19:09:11 <elliott___> <Vorpal> elliott___, just use an /ignore on whoever it is?
19:09:12 <mroman> My latest quote on #haskell was
19:09:19 <elliott___> that would not solve the issue, I'm afraid
19:09:20 <mroman> "Now that I'm finnished writing my code I can throw it away"
19:09:43 <Vorpal> elliott___, oh? Report whoever it is to staff if he is harassing you.
19:09:44 <soundnfury> my point is that with the tab system you have to memorise how many semitones there are in a perfect fifth
19:09:51 <Vorpal> or she I guess
19:10:02 <Taneb> elliott___, use the fact that lambdabot is often an op you are a lambda-op to permanently ban them on all the channels that are worth it?
19:10:03 <mroman> (Which is what I'm usually doing when I finnished a code project)
19:10:16 <Taneb> Finnished a code project?
19:10:31 <mroman> Yeah, you know.
19:10:38 <mroman> "Hm. I'm gonna write $thing it'll be fun.
19:10:45 <Taneb> koodin projekti?
19:10:46 <Vorpal> elliott___, anyway can you recommend any less boring channels?
19:10:46 <elliott___> Vorpal: hmm, I don't feel like going to the trouble and it probably does not qualify as harrassment
19:10:47 <mroman> Ok. finnished. rm -rf /path"
19:10:55 <elliott___> Vorpal: i already said not really :p
19:10:56 <oklopol> and yes the cycle of fifths
19:11:09 <Vorpal> elliott___, which channels are you in apart from this one though?
19:11:11 <soundnfury> Taneb: looked at eniuq yet?
19:11:19 <Taneb> soundnfury, it looks... interesting
19:11:22 <soundnfury> heh
19:11:48 <Vorpal> elliott___, anyway how do the person avoid /ignore? changing nick? changing host?
19:12:01 <elliott___> Vorpal: I will just answer in /msg as that would be easier
19:12:04 <Vorpal> elliott___, sure
19:12:13 <Vorpal> elliott___, I only wish to help you
19:12:29 <fizzie> mroman: Completely destroying things is a very Finnish thing to do, yes.
19:12:40 <mroman> Is finnished spelled with one n?
19:12:49 <fizzie> Though I think it should be "rm -axe /path".
19:12:51 <Vorpal> mroman, yes.
19:12:57 <mroman> We' I be damned :(
19:13:02 <fizzie> Not when you actually Finnish something.
19:13:03 <soundnfury> fizzie: like kill -overboard?
19:13:06 <mroman> Ok.
19:13:17 <itidus21> mroman: but finnished is a reference to finland for almost free
19:13:19 <mroman> I meant when I finished writing my code I delete it afterwards.
19:13:37 <Vorpal> a lot of shouting outside, huh. Which is strange since this is a quiet part of town
19:13:38 <fizzie> Do you keep binaries? 
19:13:44 <Vorpal> oh well
19:13:48 <mroman> Not on purpose.
19:13:49 <soundnfury> Taneb: I think it's turing-complete, but I'm buggered if I can prove it
19:16:30 <mroman> Sometimes I find binaries lingering around
19:16:33 <mroman> but seldom.
19:16:45 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
19:16:56 <mroman> and when I do, i delete theme.
19:17:08 <olsner> it's not completely finnished if you still have binaries lingering around
19:17:20 <itidus21> hahaha
19:17:21 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
19:17:56 <mroman> *them
19:18:31 <mroman> If I move servers all my eso stuff is gone :)
19:18:42 <itidus21> About 1,190,000 results for "finnished", About 709,000,000 results for "finished"
19:18:54 <mroman> I don't use backups.
19:18:57 <itidus21> im actually surprised theres > 1m for finnished
19:19:13 <mroman> I assume it's a common spelling mistake
19:19:14 <oerjan> soundnfury: i see you and vorpal mention n-dimensional handedness and groups in the logs but no mention of O(n) vs. SO(n) matrix (lie) groups?
19:19:22 <oerjan> (well so far anyway)
19:19:37 <oerjan> (i guess Vorpal implied that would be too heavy)
19:20:31 <itidus21> the google results say nokia is finnished
19:20:57 -!- edwardk has joined.
19:21:20 <soundnfury> oerjan: well, I seemed to be confusing people quite thoroughly enough without O(n) and SO(n)
19:21:32 <elliott___> oerjan: can you do the work required for me to feature another language please, it is so overdue
19:21:35 <elliott___> thx
19:22:22 <oerjan> argh
19:23:12 <elliott___> i like how everyone is adding languages without putting them on the language list these days
19:23:37 <soundnfury> why is there a language list separate from Category:Languages?
19:23:38 <elliott___> but hey, I upgraded MediaWiki the other day!
19:23:44 <elliott___> soundnfury: because it has a nicer organisation
19:24:01 <elliott___> ideally it would be generated from the category
19:24:17 <Vorpal> just write a mediawiki plugin for that
19:24:20 <Vorpal> have fun with php
19:24:47 <elliott___> i'll pass
19:25:21 <fizzie> Incidentally, there was an ad for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_Cola in a restaurant the-day-before-yesterday.
19:25:25 <fizzie> Sadly, they were all out.
19:25:39 <Vorpal> cool
19:25:43 <fizzie> The company had brought them two cases for promotional use, but they hadn't managed to get any more.
19:25:45 <itidus21> ahh.. must be a rival to open source cola
19:25:58 <fizzie> It's not related to the operating system as far as I know.
19:26:04 <fizzie> But it would've been kinda-sorta funny.
19:26:39 <itidus21> "Ubuntu Cola should not be confused with "open source" colas such as OpenCola." ah ok
19:26:40 <mroman> Cannonical going into the soft drink industry
19:26:52 <fizzie> It was the hippie-est place I've been in quite a while. http://leuven.lovinghut.be/BG-LEUVEN-EN/home/ -- see e.g. the bits about Supreme Master Ching Hai.
19:27:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, where is that mentioned?
19:27:41 <elliott___> fizzie: have you ever noticed that all third-brand colas taste identical
19:27:55 <elliott___> that coffee looks nice
19:28:07 <fizzie> The "Environment" and "About us" pages, at least.
19:28:19 <itidus21> ubuntu is the solaris of the cola world
19:30:12 <fizzie> To be fair, there was nothing wrong with the food, and they weren't aggressively hippy or anything, it was mostly just the web page.
19:30:36 <fizzie> Okay, the "oh so fair" organic ice tea/lemonade was kinda bitter.
19:31:08 <fizzie> (It said "oh so fair" in the can.)
19:31:13 <elliott___> `addquote <itidus21> ubuntu is the solaris of the cola world
19:31:16 <HackEgo> 853) <itidus21> ubuntu is the solaris of the cola world
19:31:48 <Vorpal> :D
19:32:43 <Taneb> elliott___, says someone who comes from the home of Fentiman's
19:32:49 <itidus21> theres a german beer named Fucking Hell
19:33:25 <oerjan> itidus21: not austrian?  that's where Fucking is, afaik.  although they're not too keen on the pun.
19:33:41 <oerjan> (Hell for beer in german means light, i think)
19:34:08 <mroman> Nah.
19:34:14 <mroman> Hell is "clear"
19:34:14 <oerjan> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helles
19:34:26 <fizzie> I think they were reconsidering the name change again in Fucking; last time it didn't go through.
19:34:32 <itidus21> "The EU's trademarks authority has permitted a German firm to brew beer and produce clothing under the name "Fucking Hell"."
19:34:39 <oerjan> mroman: well the pun would work, anyway
19:35:26 <itidus21> oerjan: you're correct, thats what the beer means, it's not meant to be an expletive
19:35:28 <mroman> hm.
19:35:29 <mroman> ok
19:35:31 <mroman> "light"
19:35:44 <elliott___> <Taneb> elliott___, says someone who comes from the home of Fentiman's
19:35:46 <elliott___> i have disgraced my town
19:35:49 <mroman> not in the sense of coke light
19:35:57 <elliott___> `quote
19:35:57 <elliott___> `quote
19:35:58 <elliott___> `quote
19:35:58 <Taneb> elliott___, :(
19:35:58 <elliott___> `quote
19:35:58 <elliott___> `quote
19:36:00 <mroman> more like light brown :)
19:36:03 <Taneb> :( :( :(
19:36:12 <HackEgo> 2) <Slereah> EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork"
19:36:34 <HackEgo> 655) <Vorpal> oh my god  <Vorpal> that is one ugly solution  <elliott> beautiful
19:36:34 <HackEgo> 477) <monqy> beautiful summer / fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck / fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck
19:36:35 <HackEgo> 501) <Patashu> it's the pain of the gaps argument  <Patashu> no matter how good your robot is at feeling pain  <Patashu> it's never close enough
19:36:35 <HackEgo> 716) <coppro> ... goddamit I'm having a discussion about the literary qualities of a Pokemon game
19:36:47 <oerjan> en:light can be either no:lys(t) or no:lett, which have the two different meanings
19:37:08 <elliott___> hmm, all of those are bad except the first three
19:37:08 <mroman> Apparentely the Sign of "Fucking" is stolen by tourists a lot :D
19:37:10 <elliott___> so two of them are bad
19:37:14 <elliott___> alsothe first one is quite bad and the second one isn't so good
19:37:19 <Taneb> ^ul ((:< )S:^):^
19:37:19 <fungot> :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :<  ...too much output!
19:37:22 <oerjan> except that americans use light to mean low-calorie beer, while norwegians use lett to mean low-_alcohol_ beer
19:37:25 <elliott___> the third one is good though, probably the best quote in the database
19:37:30 <fizzie> mroman: I believe that's a major reason why they keep considering the name change.
19:37:34 <oerjan> which has ... confused some tourists.
19:38:45 <mroman> Renaming a City because it's name has a different meaning in some other languages is 
19:38:48 <mroman> well..
19:38:56 <mroman> there are probably thousands of such cities :D
19:38:59 <mroman> or villages.
19:39:16 <itidus21> i read that it was during one of the wars that the Fucking people learned of the problem
19:40:08 <fizzie> We have some sort of a numbering scheme when it comes to beer; they have grades I (0-2.8%), III (3.7-4.7%), IV A/B (4.8-5.8%/above) where the %s are alcohol volume percentages.
19:40:17 <fizzie> Grade II isn't in use in Finland.
19:40:25 <oerjan> mroman: i saw in a newspaper article that they recently managed to get the sign secured enough that some thieves gave up.  whether that lasted, it naturally didn't say.
19:40:38 <oerjan> (they dug a foundation for it.)
19:41:00 <mroman> So
19:41:20 <mroman> Foreign media reports about a stolen sign in some very small village?
19:41:30 <mroman> Damn media.
19:41:54 <mroman> The devil of this epoch.
19:42:04 <oerjan> mroman: yep.
19:42:54 <oerjan> meanwhile, no one is about to change the name of Hell, half an hour drive from here.  in fact i think someone suggested changing the name of the whole municipality to Hell.
19:43:42 <mroman> I think it's stupid to rename stuff because of it's meaning in a totally different language.
19:43:57 <mroman> For all we know westend might be a term for assface in some african language.
19:44:00 <itidus21> theres a wonderfully named place in futurama
19:44:02 <Taneb> oerjan, there's a Hell in Jamaica, too
19:44:20 <Vorpal> <oerjan> except that americans use light to mean low-calorie beer, while norwegians use lett to mean low-_alcohol_ beer <-- we do the same in Sweden (lättöl is low alcohol)
19:44:28 <oerjan> Taneb: yeah i think that was mentioned last time we had this kind of discussion
19:45:07 <Taneb> There's a place somewhere down south called Bishop's Itchington
19:45:24 <itidus21> Professor: "Good news, everyone." Bender: "Uh oh. I don't like the sound of that."
19:45:40 <mroman> hehe
19:45:44 <itidus21> Professor: "You'll be making a delivery to the planet Trisol." Bender: "Here it comes."
19:46:02 <itidus21> Professor: "A mysterious world in the darkest depths of the Forbidden Zone." Bender: "Thank you, and goodnight."
19:46:21 <itidus21> Leela: "Uh, Professor, are we even allowed in the Forbidden Zone?"
19:46:26 <mroman> There's Dubbeldam in Nederland :)
19:46:34 <oerjan> mroman: this kind of silly news is of course traditional summer news in norway and probably elsewhere, it's called "agurktid" ("cucumber time")
19:46:42 <itidus21> Professor: "Why, of course! It's just a name, like the Death Zone or the Zone of No Return. All the zones have names like that in the Galaxy of Terror."
19:46:57 <ion> itidus: :-)
19:47:08 <mroman> Dubbeldam = Dubbel + Dam(m)
19:47:16 <ion> + Dam(n)
19:47:17 <oerjan> presumably because it also includes news like "giant cucumber grown in namdal" or whatever
19:47:27 <mroman> Which means "stupid dam" in my language :)
19:48:23 <Vorpal> hm how the fuck can there be a cross platform library between windows, linux, os X, android and javascript/webgl. How does that even work....
19:48:23 <fizzie> I don't recall any Finnish place names that'd be stupid in other languages (I know about). Though "Ii" is pretty stupid overall.
19:49:39 <Vorpal> hm can't think of any Swedish place with such a name either, though there probably is one
19:49:41 <fizzie> (I mean, look at the road sign in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ii,_Finland for example.)
19:49:45 <oerjan> ^ul ((Finnmark )S:^):^
19:49:46 <fungot> Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark  ...too much output!
19:50:20 <elliott___> `quote
19:50:20 <elliott___> `quote
19:50:21 <elliott___> `quote
19:50:21 <itidus21> fizzie: that merited a laugh aloud
19:50:21 <elliott___> `quote
19:50:21 <elliott___> `quote
19:50:34 <HackEgo> 505) <itidus20> now theodore seuss is dead... so screw him
19:50:45 <itidus21> lol what
19:50:49 <HackEgo> 112) <pikhq> And... WTF is it doing.  <pikhq> :(  <Sgeo_> Is it sexing?
19:50:49 <HackEgo> 283) * Received a CTCP VERSION from nyuszika7h   * VERSION Microsoft IRC# 2011 64-bit (Windows 8 Beta, x64, 2GB RAM)   <nyuszika7h> Gregor: Windows 8 Beta? o_O   <Gregor> A small benefit of my brief time as an intern at MS.
19:50:49 <mroman> Doesn't swedish have a verb "fuck"?
19:50:49 <HackEgo> 398) <Phantom_Hoover> The wickedest man of all.  <Phantom_Hoover> Surpassed only in wickedness by the wicked witches of the west and east.  <copumpkin> you talking about me again?  <Phantom_Hoover> Yes.  <copumpkin> k
19:50:51 <HackEgo> 281) <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: if the list is in random order, like poor ehird here
19:50:56 <mroman> which does not mean english fuck?
19:51:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, the Swedish name for Ii seems better
19:51:21 <Vorpal> Ijo
19:51:32 <Vorpal> kind of strange still
19:52:22 <mroman> Or maybe that was another language
19:52:46 <Vorpal> anyway there is Hjo in Sweden (pronounced "jo", no that is not how it should be pronounced normally, it is a strange exception that the h is not pronounced in this case). However "jo" is colloquial for "yes"
19:52:54 <fizzie> Vorpal: They have an "Yli-Ii" (Överijo) too.
19:53:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, nice
19:53:17 <mroman> oh
19:53:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, how do you pronounce Ii or Ijo?
19:53:23 <mroman> swedish has "fick"
19:53:24 <oerjan> Vorpal: wait, swedish pronunces h in hj?
19:53:28 <mroman> which means fuck in german.
19:53:36 <Vorpal> mroman, is that a location?
19:53:40 <mroman> no
19:53:46 <mroman> not that I know.
19:53:53 <Vorpal> oerjan, actually, no not usually, I guess
19:53:57 <Vorpal> never mind
19:54:07 <mroman> Theres ficksmossen in finnland
19:54:20 <Vorpal> oerjan, well actually we do sometimes I'm pretty sure, but very faintly
19:54:33 <Vorpal> oerjan, might be dialectal?
19:54:36 <itidus21> those quotes are mostly good.. i think mine is the poorest of the lot
19:54:53 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left).
19:55:19 <Vorpal> oerjan, I think it is dialectal and only in some words that we pronounce that. Can't think of any examples atm though
19:55:23 <itidus21> you know life is tough when you're getting sympathy from fungot
19:55:24 <fungot> itidus21: mr president, i should like to focus is the programme's budget to eur 2 500 million over a period of four months for the preparation of the first pillar receives the aspect of travel outside the european union
19:55:55 <fizzie> Vorpal: I'd pronounce "Ii" as /i:/. I don't really know about Ijo though.
19:56:00 <Vorpal> hm okay
19:56:18 <mroman> Although nobody considers my language as an official language :D
19:57:19 <fizzie> There was a small island somewhere with a stupid Swedish name (thanks to your "ö" word), but I've forgotten it.
19:57:30 <oerjan> "Så var har du varit?" "Hjo." * gives up on finishing who's on first parody.
19:57:43 <mroman> ö word?
19:57:49 <Vorpal> mroman, anyway we have "sex" as both "six" and "sex", the latter meaning a loan word from English
19:58:15 <Vorpal> oerjan, :D
19:58:22 <Vorpal> mroman, ?
19:58:27 <Vorpal> ö = island
19:59:13 <fizzie> I'm sure there's also silly ø names in Denmark. (Norwegians seem to have made it a bit arguably less silly øy.)
19:59:14 <Vorpal> (langauge designers: get your priorities straight when deciding which words need short representations!)
19:59:29 <oerjan> fizzie: we have "Å", though.
19:59:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, silly ö names? What
19:59:53 <fizzie> Well, if you have a short thing before ö, it can easily lead to something stupid.
19:59:55 <Vorpal> also å means uh... what do you call something between river and stream in English?
20:00:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, how so?
20:00:36 <oklopol> we have some words that sound funny in english, but dunno about writing
20:01:04 <oerjan> Umeå
20:01:08 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, IMO short names are more easily silly-sounding. (See: Ii.)
20:01:09 <Vorpal> oerjan, what about it?
20:01:22 <oerjan> Vorpal: it _is_ sort of funny sounding, isn't it
20:01:42 <Vorpal> oerjan, well, not to me
20:01:54 <Vorpal> well I guess "uh-eh-oh"?
20:01:57 <fizzie> You have an Å in Norrköping, apparently. And Norway was just lousy with Ås.
20:01:59 <Vorpal> um*
20:02:00 <oerjan> meanwhile, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grong
20:02:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, eh? I don't know the geography in Norrköping, is it an å named Å
20:02:40 <fizzie> It's a village.
20:02:47 <mroman> Vorpal: We too.
20:02:47 <Vorpal> åh
20:02:54 <Vorpal> mroman, ?
20:02:57 <oklopol> or at least poo without the aspiration means tree.
20:02:58 * coppro stabs computer
20:03:02 <coppro> unicode is not working :/
20:03:02 <mroman> In german there is "sex" and "sechs"
20:03:08 <Vorpal> ah
20:03:14 <mroman> But swiss german does not hav a sound distinction between x and chs
20:03:16 <oerjan> fizzie: i wasn't aware we had _that_ many.
20:03:17 <fizzie> Vorpal: Though I'm sure there's some sort of a stream nearby.
20:03:18 <mroman> but real germans have.
20:03:20 <Vorpal> heh
20:03:39 <fizzie> oerjan: Wikipedia lists 8 current, one former.
20:03:48 <oklopol> mroman: is it dialect-dependent whether it's pronounced sex or se*cough out your lungs*s
20:04:11 <oklopol> (i don't have unicode so i'll use this layman's description.)
20:04:13 <mroman> I don't know any swiss dialect which would pronounce them differently.
20:04:18 <oklopol> oh
20:04:23 <oklopol> i guess you just answered that.
20:04:36 <mroman> so whether it is "sex" or "sechs" is inferred from context.
20:04:45 <oklopol> hmm, perhaps not
20:04:51 <mroman> ok
20:04:56 <mroman> I know one :)
20:05:09 <fizzie> There's a number-"joke" that if you say 9 in English, then 9 in German, then 9 in Finnish, and interpret the whole spoken thing in Finnish, it vaguely sounds like saying "I fucked approximately nine" in Finnish.
20:05:23 <mroman> It's pronounced "sächs" in some dialects.
20:05:48 <mroman> and chs depending on dialect is either x or *cough your lungs out * ;)
20:05:53 <oklopol> mroman: that doesn't help, how is ch pronoun... oh.
20:06:27 <mroman> How to pronounce ch?
20:06:28 <fizzie> ("Nain noin yhdeksän", and the Finnish pronounciations of "nain" and "noin" kind of approximate en:'nine' and de:'neun'.)
20:06:31 <oklopol> yeah alright. my german teacher in elementary school kind of sucked (the r is really hard, you can just use the finnish one).
20:06:32 <oerjan> <mroman> Although nobody considers my language as an official language :D <-- your language is neither french, german, italian or ret * looks it up * romansh?
20:06:51 <mroman> Like you got slime in your pharynx and you want it to get out :)
20:07:04 -!- pikhq has joined.
20:07:07 <mroman> oklopol: Some swiss consider swiss german to be an own language ;)
20:07:25 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
20:07:32 <oklopol> also "nain noin yhdeks�n" means "i married about nine".
20:07:52 <fizzie> Well, that's arguable.
20:07:59 <mroman> But when it comes to "how to pronounce $thing in swiss german" I can probably give you six alternative pronounciations :)
20:08:10 <mroman> *pronunciation
20:08:45 <mroman> Although swiss german is dying of course
20:08:47 <oklopol> fizzie: is it?
20:08:50 <mroman> Due to the influence of regular german.
20:08:50 <soundnfury> I could only tell you the german german pronunciations, which aren't exactly germane
20:09:33 <mroman> German has at least two different "ch" sounds.
20:09:38 <oklopol> i can't think of another meaning
20:09:45 <mroman> The one in "Ich" and the one in "Ach"
20:10:35 <oklopol> ich is the normal h and ach the lung thing?
20:11:10 <oerjan> germane german germs
20:11:17 <oklopol> i read part of the group theory article in german wikipedia today and understood pretty much everything in the first two paragraphs :)
20:11:23 <mroman> oklopol: Yeah.
20:11:35 <elliott___> `quote
20:11:35 <elliott___> `quote
20:11:36 <elliott___> `quote
20:11:37 <elliott___> `quote
20:11:37 <elliott___> `quote
20:11:46 <mroman> Although your lungs have nothing to do with it.
20:11:49 <HackEgo> 385) <oklofok> what would you ever need petrol for  <oklofok> newsflash: it doesn't actually taste that good
20:12:01 <oklopol> there was something like hinterundereinander which i couldn't quite understand.
20:12:01 <mroman> It's more of a snore sound :)
20:12:04 <HackEgo> 97) <Keiya> I want a patent on common sense   <Keiya> It wouldn't get me much though >_>
20:12:04 <HackEgo> 30) <zzo38> I am not on the moon.
20:12:05 <HackEgo> 764) <olsner> the allocation is done by the "Dynamic" in DRAM  <olsner> before that we used SRAM where everything was preallocated in the factory  <fizzie> olsner: So what's this SDRAM then?   <olsner> fizzie: synchronized, it's for multithreading
20:12:05 <HackEgo> 613) <fizzie> Spacegoat is the network-operations-optimized-for-latency-of-minutes-or-hours-due-to-light-speed-limits variant of scapegoat, to be used when you need to check out some code from the Mars colony.  <fizzie> (I'm pretty sure we'll have established a Mars colony by the time scapegoat rolls out.)
20:12:14 <mroman> oklopol: hinter und untereinander
20:12:16 <oklopol> mroman: yeah it was a silly description
20:12:18 <elliott___> imo 97
20:12:22 <fizzie> oklopol: See sense 2 of http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/naida
20:12:22 <elliott___> fizzie?
20:12:23 <elliott___> oerjan?
20:12:33 <oklopol> oops it was Hintereinanderausf�hren
20:12:52 <nortti> I remeber 764
20:13:28 <mroman> hinderenand usfüärä
20:13:34 <oklopol> fuhren with umlaut means to lead and kill jews and shit, aus is out, einander is each other and hinter is behind.
20:13:37 <oerjan> i assume 764 would be funny if i knew the terms.
20:13:39 <oklopol> lead out behind each other?
20:13:40 <mroman> oklopol: No.
20:13:52 <oklopol> oh
20:13:55 <mroman> except for the lead part ;)
20:13:56 <elliott___> oerjan: hint: they do not mean that
20:14:22 <oerjan> <mroman> Although your lungs have nothing to do with it. <-- your uvula may not survive, however.
20:14:25 <oklopol> einander isn't each other?
20:14:49 <mroman> einander is each other
20:14:51 <oklopol> i'm at least pretty damn sure that hinter is behind
20:15:09 <mroman> correct.
20:15:26 <oklopol> you just mean that's not the way to actually understand that?
20:15:32 <oklopol> because i kind of figured that might be the case
20:15:49 <elliott___> `delquote 97
20:15:52 <mroman> To what are you referring no?
20:15:54 <HackEgo> ​*poof* <Keiya> I want a patent on common sense   <Keiya> It wouldn't get me much though >_>
20:15:54 <elliott___> rest
20:15:56 <oerjan> elliott___: that is what i assumed
20:16:07 <oerjan> finally we have eradicated common sense!
20:16:33 <mroman> hintereinander is one after another
20:16:48 <oerjan> anaufhinterinnebenüberuntervorundzwischen
20:16:50 <mroman> depending on context of course.
20:16:59 <oklopol> also unzerlegbaren is awesome, legen is put or something, bar is able, zer is often about breaking shit, un is, well, un. so this means indecomposable.
20:17:02 <mroman> Does your language not have spaces?
20:17:17 <mroman> You mean unzerlegbar
20:17:18 <oerjan> spacesareoverrated
20:17:19 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol!
20:17:50 <mroman> and it means you can't take it apart.
20:17:58 <oklopol> mroman: sorry copypasted.
20:18:23 <mroman> the en is a case thingy.
20:18:28 <oerjan> oklopol: so basically if you see zerführen, it's time to run as fast as you can
20:18:28 <mroman> don't know the linguistic term for that.
20:18:33 <mroman> unzerlegbar
20:18:38 <mroman> Ein unzerlegbares Objekt.
20:18:39 <oklopol> mroman: btw what oerjan said is something foreigners use to learn those, do you learn them?
20:18:43 <mroman> Mit einem unzerlegbaren Objekt.
20:18:47 <oklopol> mroman: yes i know how nouns work in german
20:19:20 <mroman> oklopol: you mean 22:16 < oerjan> anaufhinterinnebenüberuntervorundzwischen
20:19:23 <mroman> ?
20:19:42 <oklopol> unzerlegbaren in this case was, afaiu, the genitive case of something in plural.
20:19:48 <oklopol> mroman: yes
20:19:56 <oerjan> prepositions governing either accusative or dative, depending
20:20:00 <oklopol> Eine der herausragenden mathematischen Leistungen des 20. Jahrhunderts ist die Klassifikation aller einfachen endlichen Gruppen, also der unzerlegbaren Bausteine aller endlichen Gruppen.
20:20:05 <mroman> What do you mean by "do you learn them"
20:20:08 <mroman> I don't have to learn german.
20:20:32 <mroman> Not anymore.
20:20:37 <oklopol> but i assume you still have some sort of german lessons, so i was wondering if there's some reason to learn those.
20:20:45 <elliott___> `quote
20:20:45 <elliott___> `quote
20:20:46 <elliott___> `quote
20:20:46 <elliott___> `quote
20:20:49 <elliott___> is it 4 or 5
20:20:50 <elliott___> `quote
20:20:55 <HackEgo> 818) <Ngevd> And I may soon lack both a head and a wall
20:20:57 <oklopol> i mean had in school
20:21:02 <HackEgo> 540) <fizzie> I tend to debase64 with perl -MMIME::Base64 -e 'print decode_base64("...");', because at least PERL stands for "PERL ein't-no ruddy-poo lol-GNU".
20:21:05 <mroman> Ah. Yes.
20:21:08 <HackEgo> 194) <Phantom_Hoover> For instance, Jesus' Y chromosome was clearly GOD'S.
20:21:09 <HackEgo> 719) <elliott> I hate you.
20:21:09 <HackEgo> 472) <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_, the origin of suffering is desire for e-book readers.
20:21:26 <Phantom_Hoover> 719.
20:21:35 <mroman> But Swiss learning German is something totally different.
20:21:44 <mroman> We just pronounce stuff differently
20:21:47 <oklopol> durchfurgegenohneum... something :D
20:21:51 <Sgeo_> Is what 4 or 5?
20:21:56 <mroman> and have own words for some stuff.
20:21:57 <oklopol> again i can't do umlaut on this kb
20:22:05 <elliott___> `delquote 719
20:22:08 <HackEgo> ​*poof* <elliott> I hate you.
20:22:09 <mroman> But besides that a swiss does not need to learn german vocabulary.
20:22:22 <elliott___> Sgeo_: the number of quoutes
20:22:48 <mroman> Not like you have to ;)
20:22:53 <mroman> We have grammar and spelling lessons.
20:23:07 <mroman> and writing.
20:23:12 <oklopol> mroman: well that's why i was wondering, it seems that datives and accusatives are something that you don't have to learn, so perhaps you've never even heard anaufhinterinnebenüberuntervorundzwischen even though pretty much everyone who learns german in finland has.
20:23:49 <oklopol> it's like the most important thing, i bet there are even songs about it.
20:24:00 <mroman> No, in german we already have datives and accusatives
20:24:04 <oerjan> oklopol: in fact i'm thinking about a song whenever i try to remember it :P
20:24:06 <mroman> so no need to learn those ;)
20:24:11 <mroman> We don't have the genitive case though.
20:24:30 <mroman> But genitive is dying anyway
20:24:41 <WHAT_DOWN> ablative or gtfo
20:24:42 <mroman> Even germans start using the dative where genitive would actually be correct.
20:24:49 <oerjan> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXMQDfwXzSQ
20:25:27 <mroman> We say "em ma siis auto" - "Dem Mann sein Auto"
20:25:36 <oklopol> genitive is my favorite case in german, i use it for everything
20:25:40 <mroman> even though technically it has to be "Des Mannes Auto"
20:25:45 <mroman> or "Das Auto des Mannes"
20:25:57 <oklopol> erm
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20:26:04 <oklopol> germans say that?
20:26:09 <oklopol> i'm not sure i believe you
20:26:11 <mroman> say what?
20:26:21 <oklopol> Dem Mann sein Auto
20:26:23 <oklopol> erm
20:26:36 <mroman> Rarely
20:26:43 <mroman> but "Das Auto vom Mann"
20:26:46 <mroman> is quite common.
20:27:03 <oklopol> Des Mannes Auto o_O
20:27:04 <elliott___> `WELCOME epicmonkey
20:27:05 <mroman> which is also not really the correct way to go.
20:27:07 <HackEgo> EPICMONKEY: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.)
20:27:09 <oklopol> that's technically correct??
20:27:15 <oklopol> hmm.
20:27:41 <mroman> oklopol: Yes.
20:28:00 <oklopol> yeah on second thought it doesn't look crazy.
20:28:08 <mroman> oklopol: Best known sentence for that
20:28:12 <mroman> "Des Mannes bestes Stück"
20:28:20 <mroman> (aka genitals)
20:28:36 <oklopol> what's st�ck
20:28:50 <mroman> Stück? It's "piece"
20:29:07 <oklopol> das auto vom mann is taught in school
20:29:14 <oerjan> sadly, Øystein Sunde's funny lyrics are incomprehensible if you don't know norwegian.  and sometimes even then.
20:29:18 <oklopol> as what's replacing genitive
20:29:37 -!- WHAT_DOWN has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:29:40 <mroman> Das Auto vom Mann is grammatically correct.
20:30:04 <mroman> but some people consider it to be bad style
20:30:10 <mroman> as usually you'd use genitive for that.
20:30:11 <oklopol> yeah this is also taught in school
20:30:38 <mroman> But people don't really "dig" genetive so they avoid it at all cost :D
20:30:54 <elliott___> Phantom_Hoover: do another `quote round, I am lazy
20:31:02 <oerjan> (also they're pretty much unpronouncable to anyone else, including norwegians.)
20:31:28 <Phantom_Hoover> `quote
20:31:31 <HackEgo> 341) [on Sgeo's karaoke] <Phantom_Hoover> That is the thing that made me into a gay vampire.
20:31:31 <Phantom_Hoover> `quote
20:31:31 <Phantom_Hoover> `quote
20:31:31 <Phantom_Hoover> `quote
20:31:31 <Phantom_Hoover> `quote
20:31:31 <oklopol> oerjan: what are you talking about?
20:31:39 <oklopol> oh
20:31:42 <oklopol> you linked something.
20:31:42 <HackEgo> 842) <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, like Glasgow but nicer  <Taneb> So, not like Glasgow at all
20:31:54 <HackEgo> 824) <monqy> imagine hitting a brick wall really really hard but you don't do anything to it. instead you explode.  <monqy> that's what it's like for people who hit you
20:31:54 <HackEgo> 730) <fizzie> oerjan: Hey, what's your country code for telephonistic dialling from the outside world?   <oerjan> fizzie: +47  <fizzie> oerjan: Ooh, you're, like, right next to Sweden there.  <fizzie> I... guess you are geographically, too.
20:31:55 <HackEgo> 387) <oklofok> if i became a serial killer, it'd be because i want to kill people, not because i'm crazy
20:32:04 <oerjan> oklopol: that song that i use to remember the prepositions
20:32:05 <oklopol> oerjan: first sentence had tysk = german!!
20:32:08 <elliott___> `delquote 387
20:32:11 <HackEgo> ​*poof* <oklofok> if i became a serial killer, it'd be because i want to kill people, not because i'm crazy
20:32:22 <mroman> Why are you learning german?
20:32:22 <Phantom_Hoover> What's 824's context?
20:32:24 -!- boily has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8).
20:32:30 <elliott___> monqys-crawl
20:33:02 <mroman> Warum lernst du Deutsch :)
20:33:03 <oerjan> Wegen des Krieges brauchten wir keinen Genitiven
20:33:50 <oklopol> mroman: hab keine achnung, kinder tun dumme dinge. also i have no active vocabulary so i can't say anything.
20:33:51 <mroman> *Genitiv
20:34:09 <oklopol> mroman: you just said genetive yourself :P
20:34:15 <mroman> (... wir keinen Genitiv)
20:34:16 <oklopol> og
20:34:17 <oklopol> oh
20:34:20 <oklopol> you were correcting case
20:34:22 <oklopol> sorry.
20:34:38 <mroman> And it's Ahnung ;)
20:34:40 <mroman> no ch sound there
20:34:54 <oklopol> mroman: couldn't it have been a plural of genitive in oerjan's sentence?
20:35:00 <oklopol> keine
20:35:14 <oklopol> since brauchen perhaps takes accusative
20:35:19 <mroman> That would require "keine" instead of "keinen", yes.
20:35:21 <oklopol> argh i know nothing
20:35:24 <oklopol> okay.
20:35:31 <mroman> and the plural of Genitiv is Genitive probably.
20:35:44 <mroman> instead of Genitiven.
20:36:01 <oklopol> shouldn't you know? :P
20:36:03 <oerjan> mroman: ok, *keine Genitive  is what i meant
20:36:13 <oklopol> okay perhaps not if you speak your own version.
20:36:15 <mroman> I'm not sure that you can put cases into plural.
20:36:24 <mroman> but if you can it's Genitive
20:37:04 <oerjan> i was mainly just flaunting the only preposition i remembered actually using the genitive, anyhow
20:37:19 <oklopol> mroman: a more elaborate answer would be that we could choose between swedish and german in fifth grade and german is more interesting.
20:37:42 <mroman> Ah.
20:37:49 <mroman> At least you don't HAVE TO learn french in school
20:37:52 <epicmonkey> HackEgo: not enough RAEG
20:38:01 <mroman> we do :(
20:38:08 <fizzie> mroman: We HAVE TO learn Swedish, though, and that's a point which many people dislike.
20:38:14 <mroman> I had 8 years french in school.
20:38:22 <mroman> I forgot everything.
20:38:29 <mroman> Except my passive reading vocabulary.
20:38:33 <oklopol> i had 12 years of school. i forgot everything.
20:38:54 <oklopol> should've gone straight to university
20:38:55 <elliott___> epicmonkey: raeg
20:38:56 <elliott___> really
20:39:18 <oklopol> i can somewhat read french based on english
20:39:38 <mroman> I spent two semester at kindergarden university and I learned nothing :)
20:39:45 <oerjan> fungot: show epicmonkey some RAEG
20:39:46 <fungot> oerjan: mr president, the importance of this in ireland where we have to look into our own court. there are three fairy fnord for the poorest countries, modelled on the dublin agenda.
20:39:58 <oklopol> and today i was reading about crane flies at work in italian
20:40:00 <oerjan> ^style ct
20:40:00 <fungot> Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script)
20:40:05 <oerjan> fungot: try again
20:40:06 <fungot> oerjan: but, we are far outnumbered! okay! no...! help! no human's gonna talk. we no can call that the chrono trigger. it is r66-y? cool? who knows what would become of my mystics? i must win!
20:40:09 <oklopol> because one attacked me and the italian article is longer than the english one.
20:40:34 <elliott___> how come there are like three monkeys that have come to this channel
20:40:46 <oklopol> BAN THE MONKEYS!!
20:40:56 <oerjan> who's the third?
20:41:13 <mroman> I feel like a monkey studying something I don't want to .
20:41:17 -!- oklopol has set topic: last topic change: today | monkeys not welcome unless they bring bananas | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
20:41:27 <elliott___> oerjan: who's the second
20:41:31 <oerjan> we cannot ban monqy, he's an essential part of the fundament of reality
20:41:43 <elliott___> greasemonkey
20:41:48 <oklopol> does he have bananas, i like bananas
20:41:49 <oerjan> although not currently present, which probably means we are doomed
20:41:50 <elliott___> why would you ban monqy, ban the others instead imho
20:41:53 <elliott___> he is sleeping
20:42:02 <oerjan> i haven't seen greasemonkey for ages
20:42:12 <elliott___> it's ok he's boring
20:42:54 <oklopol> mroman: i think man is the only animal that studies things they don't want to study. monkeys only do it for the bananas.
20:43:12 <mroman> Yeah.
20:43:23 <oklopol> so i guess add "without getting bananas in return" after my first sentence
20:43:28 <mroman> In order to live a happy life life has to be simple.
20:44:06 <epicmonkey> oklopol: this is discrimination, my fellow primate
20:44:39 <oklopol> epicmonkey: I'M STRONGLY OPPOSED TO MONKEYS BECAUSE THEIR FUR IS DIFFERENT COLOR THAN MINE.
20:45:16 <oklopol> really i'm just jealous because my fur is ridiculously thin.
20:45:38 <epicmonkey> then grow it like a boss!
20:45:51 <mroman> Stop waxing .
20:46:25 <mroman> and use drugs for your hair.
20:47:03 <mroman> Using drugs is cool, as opposed to what everybody tells
20:47:16 <elliott___> hi
20:47:28 <mroman> hi
20:47:29 <oklopol> i've waxed a few times when someone has told me it really really hurts.
20:47:35 <oklopol> (it doesn't)
20:48:00 <mroman> Pain is really subjective.
20:48:00 <oklopol> also i shave my beard nowadays because i'm a sheep :(
20:48:05 <oklopol> yes
20:49:32 <oklopol> people have very different reactions to small amounts of pain. i like to think that people still feel them the same way, because i'm a romantic.
20:50:12 <mroman> I wouldn't say so.
20:50:24 <mroman> Afaik there are two types of nerves thingies.
20:50:29 <mroman> One that triggers non-pain
20:50:34 <mroman> and one that triggers pain
20:50:40 <mroman> based on a treshold.
20:51:05 <mroman> so you can actually distinguish touching something with pain
20:51:21 <Phantom_Hoover> What happens if you only trigger the non-pain
20:51:25 <mroman> or from pain
20:51:26 <oklopol> do you mean "from pain"?
20:51:28 <oklopol> hmm
20:51:32 <mroman> oklopol: yeah.
20:51:39 <mroman> english of me not so good is
20:51:56 <mroman> the hearing part is perfect.
20:51:58 <oklopol> that's actually english of *mine*
20:52:00 <mroman> the writing part not so much.
20:52:06 <oklopol> english of mine not so good is
20:52:11 <elliott___> 
20:52:20 <mroman> english of mine not so good is sounds still like Yoda speaking.
20:52:40 <mroman> (which was my intention)
20:52:48 <Phantom_Hoover> (I think poor elliott___ feels left out)
20:53:00 <oerjan> mine eyes, what horrors do they see
20:53:09 <mroman> (Get a beer!)
20:53:25 <epicmonkey> What are you talking about? The real question is: how many monkeys does it take to change a light bulb?
20:53:27 <oklopol> i can only parse "sounds still like yoda speaking" if still is an adjective, but perhaps we could leave this subtopic, i'm not sure what its point is :D
20:54:08 <mroman> yeah
20:54:13 <mroman> it's probably still sounds ;)
20:54:19 <oerjan> oklopol: your parsing is deficient, it should notice the presence of the word "yoda" and switch to a more flexible grammar.
20:54:25 <mroman> more like an adverb.
20:54:42 <oklopol> probably!
20:54:48 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, sorry, I just can't make sense of that.
20:54:50 <oklopol> oerjan: okay good point.
20:54:52 <elliott___> Phantom_Hoover: no im just waiting for the interesting bit
20:55:13 <Phantom_Hoover> what oko is talking what more do you want
20:55:25 <Taneb> Goodnight
20:55:27 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
20:55:45 <oklopol> yeah elliott___ i'm being totally interesting here, i even had some caps up there.
20:56:03 <mroman> Oh yeah.
20:56:13 <mroman> He used Captain Capslock.
20:57:08 <oklopol> mroman: the transition from touch to pain feels pretty smooth to me. then again perhaps we're not talking about the kind of pain you feel when you press your arm with your finger.
20:58:50 <mroman> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nociceptor
20:59:09 * Sgeo_ wonders if A.I. Wars is a good game
20:59:52 <mroman> I think just touching the wall with your finger does not trigger any nociceptors
21:00:12 <mroman> if you stick a needl through your thumb I guess that'll trigger nociceptors.
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21:00:52 <oerjan> nociraptors
21:01:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_, depends, what's it a name for?
21:02:04 <oklopol> okay i suppose needles feel rather different than touching.
21:02:06 <Sgeo_> http://www.tacticalneuronics.com/content/aiw3dnew.asp
21:02:33 <mroman> Just touching the walls should trigger mechanoreceptors
21:03:16 <mroman> but it's totally not my area of expertise
21:03:26 <mroman> I'm not sure I even have an area of expertise :)
21:04:34 <elliott___> nobody really knows what a nociceptor is anyway , its god ?
21:04:39 <oklopol> i have some areas of being a dick with strong stupid opinions.
21:04:48 <oklopol> it's even better
21:04:55 <oklopol> way less work
21:06:34 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott___, it's what detects noces, duh
21:06:55 <Phantom_Hoover> (a noce is the thing you use to cmell)
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21:07:12 -!- TeruFSX has joined.
21:07:15 <oklopol> i read that as noticeptors, made more sense :/
21:07:18 <elliott___> salt
21:07:26 * oerjan swats Phantom_Hoover -----###
21:07:37 <oklopol> don't you mean
21:07:44 <oklopol> cwats
21:07:48 <oerjan> nope
21:07:57 <oklopol> are you sure
21:08:04 <oerjan> maybe.
21:08:16 <mroman> are you cure?
21:08:24 <oklopol> his nociceptors would respond stronger to a cwat.
21:08:31 <oklopol> and thus you would inflict more pain
21:08:39 <oerjan> oh noce
21:08:52 <oerjan> that would be crül
21:08:55 <elliott___> `quote
21:08:56 <elliott___> `quote
21:08:57 <elliott___> `quote
21:08:57 <elliott___> `quote
21:08:57 <elliott___> `quote
21:09:06 <HackEgo> 155) <cpressey> < ais523> then running repeatedly until you get the right sequence of random numbers < ais523> and just completely ignoring the input <-- some people live their entire lives this way, i reckon
21:09:06 <HackEgo> 558) <itidus20> indirect addressing is a facile and inebrious kind of instruction which should be whomped away by languages
21:09:16 <HackEgo> 376) <ais523> I think I managed something like a one-expression increment that was only a few hundred characters long
21:09:19 <HackEgo> 130) <fungot> CakeProphet: reading herbert might be enlightening in one hand he held a long worm can be greased. twice i got it nearly there, and the protector of cattle. mars is also mentioned as a rainbow. as a seated baboon sometimes with its head.
21:09:20 <HackEgo> 665) <ais523> also, why isn't monqy from Hexham? his name sounds like he should be
21:09:35 <mroman> `quote
21:09:38 <HackEgo> 284) <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: mutation is often considerably harder for both humans and compilers can analyze it much more difficult' part that induces bloody vomit... huh....intriguing
21:09:43 <elliott___> mroman: you destroyed it
21:09:46 <elliott___> now it must be repeated
21:09:47 <elliott___> `quote
21:09:48 <elliott___> `quote
21:09:48 <elliott___> `quote
21:09:48 <elliott___> `quote
21:09:49 <elliott___> `quote
21:09:49 * oerjan cwats mroman -----###
21:10:00 <HackEgo> 371) <oklopol> yes i use the services of a psychic, but i'm considering getting a live one since stuff like "hello $name, your first name $first_name has |$first_name| letters, so by using numerology we can tell ..." is getting kind of boring
21:10:14 <HackEgo> 416) <Gregor> oklopol: Why do you have so much experience with hoop-and-stick? :P  <oklopol> Gregor: my fetish: learning pointless skills
21:10:14 <HackEgo> 298) <cpressey> BYE dbc WE'LL BE SURE TO ACCIDENTALLY MENTION YOUR NICK OFTEN
21:10:14 <HackEgo> 74) <Warrigal> It's not incest if you're third cousins!
21:10:16 <HackEgo> 748) <fizzie> Two gigabytes is not really much to download.  <Gregor> THAT'S LIKE THREE EPISODES OF MY LITTLE PONY
21:10:45 <elliott___> imo 371 or 74 or 748
21:10:52 <elliott___> probably 748 or 74
21:11:17 <Phantom_Hoover> 74, if only because nobody in their right mind considers 3rd cousins to be incest.
21:11:33 <elliott___> `delquote 74
21:11:37 <HackEgo> ​*poof* <Warrigal> It's not incest if you're third cousins!
21:11:58 <Phantom_Hoover> I think I've seen one of my second cousins, once, and I haven't talked to any.
21:12:00 <elliott___> `quote
21:12:00 <elliott___> `quote
21:12:01 <elliott___> `quote
21:12:01 <elliott___> `quote
21:12:02 <elliott___> `quote
21:12:05 <elliott___> Phantom_Hoover: have you fucked any
21:12:09 <HackEgo> 243) <quintopia> who is guido van rossum  <olsner> you could say he's a man who grew a beard but acquired none of the associated good properties
21:12:12 <HackEgo> 838) <elliott> I couldn't survive an apocalypse. I don't even have any bitcoins.
21:12:14 <elliott___> talking is not a requirement
21:12:17 <HackEgo> 835) <itidus21> i have a simple view of reality that goes something like this.. once your sufficiently well tied up.. it doesn't make a difference if your enemy has a knife or a gun.. you're equally screwed
21:12:20 <HackEgo> 484) <Phantom_Hoover> Oh look, Dax has brought TWO glowy science sticks.  <Phantom_Hoover> SHIT JUST GOT REAL
21:12:21 <HackEgo> 236) <fizzie> Deewiant: Did you take the course at some point and/or were you taking it now and/or did you actually already graduate and/or are you still in Otaniemi anyway?
21:12:27 <fizzie> Seeing isn't, either; blindfolds etc.
21:12:27 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott___, no
21:12:29 <oklopol> yeah let's all calculate our cousin number
21:12:48 <elliott___> Phantom_Hoover: well what are you waiting for
21:12:56 <mroman> I'd prefer the gun.
21:13:02 <oerjan> 236
21:13:09 <Phantom_Hoover> ISTR that the one I saw was younger than me?
21:13:18 <kallisti> elliott___: I am make sandbox
21:13:23 <kallisti> also am made esolang
21:13:26 <oklopol> really most of these quotes are pretty stupid
21:13:27 * kallisti good
21:13:37 <elliott___> `quote
21:13:38 <elliott___> `quote
21:13:38 <elliott___> `quote
21:13:38 <tswett> oklopol: yeah, let's!
21:13:39 <elliott___> `quote
21:13:39 <elliott___> `quote
21:13:41 <oklopol> or i just don't get them.
21:13:41 <mroman> He can torture you better with a knife than with a gun I suppose.
21:13:45 <tswett> My great-grandparents were...
21:13:48 <HackEgo> 794) <Taneb> l is it real  <Taneb> I am [...] <Taneb> because of how on earth would I do that [...] <Taneb> I dont even no idea what I'm saying
21:13:50 <tswett> Uh... I don't remember.
21:13:52 <HackEgo> 302) <oklopol> i'm really sleep
21:14:02 <HackEgo> 46) <pikhq> Gregor is often a scandalous imposter. It's all the hats, I tell you.
21:14:03 <HackEgo> 621) <shachaf> Real Tar is GNU tar.  <shachaf> You just ignore whichever features don't make you feel superior enough.
21:14:03 <HackEgo> 737) <Vorpal> <ais523> northern ireland is quite a way to drag someone from scotland <-- not really. I just checked in google earth  <ais523> Vorpal: but dragging people across water's a bit tricky
21:14:04 <oklopol> so quoteworthy.
21:14:08 <oklopol> 302 i mean.
21:14:14 <oklopol> i have always wondered about that
21:14:19 <elliott___> `delquote 302
21:14:22 <HackEgo> ​*poof* <oklopol> i'm really sleep
21:14:23 <elliott___> imo 46 is bad
21:14:24 <tswett> Let's see, who was my dad's dad's dad?
21:14:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Well according to WP the most recent human common ancestor lived 5000 to 2000 years ago.
21:14:27 <elliott___> `delquote 46
21:14:31 <HackEgo> ​*poof* <pikhq> Gregor is often a scandalous imposter. It's all the hats, I tell you.
21:14:38 <elliott___> Phantom_Hoover: er, that recently?
21:14:39 <tswett> I would have referred to him as Grandpa ____ Swett, for some value of ____.
21:14:40 <Phantom_Hoover> (Wow, 2000 years is stupidly recent.)
21:14:46 <elliott___> Phantom_Hoover: maybe it is jesus
21:14:48 <elliott___> we are all descended from jesus
21:14:52 <tswett> But I only remember one Grandpa Swett.
21:15:05 <elliott___> Phantom_Hoover: so hang on is this like one dude we all have genes of
21:15:16 <elliott___> or whatever
21:15:18 <oklopol> 236 is such a fizzism :'D
21:15:25 <Phantom_Hoover> da Vinci code 2, twist: everyone is the descendant of jesus
21:15:27 <mroman> Jesus had sex?
21:15:35 <elliott___> Phantom_Hoover: i am just checking i got this right
21:15:47 <Sgeo_> He is his father, or something, isn't he?
21:15:50 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott___, yes, although in theory you could inherit no actual genes from them.
21:16:02 <elliott___> wasn't there a film where jesus got it on
21:16:07 <elliott___> not porn i mean
21:16:22 <Phantom_Hoover> was it on camera or was it the da vinci code
21:16:25 <elliott___> Phantom_Hoover: i'm having a hard time believing it was 2000 years ago???
21:16:31 <Phantom_Hoover> So am I?
21:16:46 <oerjan> mroman: there is nothing in the bible _denying_ it, is there?
21:16:48 <elliott___> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Temptation_of_Christ_(film)
21:16:48 <tswett> Why wouldn't it be 2000 years ago?
21:16:50 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm pretty sure, like, America was populated by then.
21:16:54 <elliott___> found by googling "movie jesus temptation sex"
21:17:15 <mroman> oerjan: I have no idea of what is in the bible
21:17:25 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott___ takes the catholic schoolgirl fetish to new heights
21:17:28 <mroman> except what people tell what's supposed to be in the bible.
21:17:40 <elliott___> mroman: there's this god dude
21:17:48 <mroman> elliott___: Don't know him.
21:18:33 <mroman> I'm only christian on a piece of paper.
21:18:55 <Phantom_Hoover> OK yeah according to WP the Americas have been populated for 17+ millennia so???
21:19:06 <oerjan> wasn't that sort of a point in the davinci code, anyway? (i've never read it, although i can see the one i got as a gift from here.)
21:19:08 <nortti> mroman: is the old testament there is so much shit that you shouldn't follow. for example you should kill babies of enemies by crushing their skulls against a rock and you are allowed so sell your daughter as a slave
21:19:10 <mroman> I actually could destroy that paper to save money.
21:19:15 <oklopol> 2000 doesn't seem that recent to me, isn't it just like how any two ppl are butt sex connected by 8 links.
21:19:27 <mroman> nortti: Does the bible say I shouldn't follow the old testament?
21:19:33 <nortti> no
21:19:40 <elliott___> well it sort of does actually
21:19:57 <mroman> So what's the old testament for?
21:19:58 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, well the thing is that for to populations to share a common ancestor you need to have at least some interbreeding.
21:20:06 <oerjan> it says both that you should and that you shouldn't, iiuc
21:20:12 <Sgeo_> Something about not one jot or tittle will pass away from the old law... but Jesus fulfilled the old law
21:20:13 <elliott___> "pro tip" : the old testament was written before the new one
21:20:18 <elliott___> that's why it's called old !
21:20:20 <nortti> well yes and no. jesus says he is not going to destroy old laws but rather fulfill them
21:20:51 <elliott___> Sgeo_: seems to me like the former has an obvious interpretation of not weakening the law's strengths even though you still gotta follow them
21:20:54 <mroman> elliott___: That only makes me believe more in to the old testament
21:20:59 <mroman> because it's closer to the truth .
21:21:03 <elliott___> what
21:21:08 <mroman> (by being older than the new one)
21:21:11 <itidus21> elliott___: we have been calling a book new for 2000 years and it took einstein to figure out relativity
21:21:14 <elliott___> because oldness is truth
21:21:26 <mroman> Well.
21:21:27 <elliott___> `addquote <itidus21> elliott___: we have been calling a book new for 2000 years and it took einstein to figure out relativity
21:21:30 <HackEgo> 848) <itidus21> elliott___: we have been calling a book new for 2000 years and it took einstein to figure out relativity
21:21:31 <itidus21> unquotab----- shit
21:21:34 <Sgeo_> On the other hand, he seems to ignore stuff about washing hands, because apparently nothing that goes into the body is ... I forget exactly what was said
21:21:34 <mroman> If two guys are telling you a story
21:21:38 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: yes, but probably not much
21:21:42 <itidus21> :D
21:21:43 <mroman> one heard the story in 1900
21:21:47 <mroman> an the other one in 1921
21:21:55 <mroman> which one would you believe more?
21:22:01 <elliott___> mroman: you realise that in the chronology old testament was written before jesus was born right
21:22:14 <elliott___> obviously if god sends down a new dude to teach people about shit the book about him isn't going to be written BEFORE he is born
21:22:19 <oklopol> i just kinda this is the kind of thing where you should expect to have less than you'd expect.
21:22:25 <mroman> I never read any testament so... no.
21:22:31 <oklopol> (but not any less than that)
21:22:56 <Phantom_Hoover> mroman, so why are you arguing about their messages?
21:22:58 <elliott___> anyway saying that older information is more accurate is ridiculous, have you heard of science
21:23:00 <mroman> All I know about the bible is that I was supposed to read it as a child but never did.
21:23:53 <Sgeo_> If I was forced into C.S. Lewis's supposed Trilemma, and was looking at the Book of John, I'd probably go with liar or crazy
21:23:57 <nortti> I read the whole bible. then I no longer believed in god
21:24:04 <Sgeo_> Jesus in that book makes me think of a cult leader
21:24:25 <mroman> elliott___: Depends...
21:24:33 <oklopol> elliott___: the book was written so people could take a look in advance so they'd keep up.
21:24:36 <mroman> If two people tell me a story I beleive the oldest source
21:24:43 <mroman> because that's the one most likely not being changed over time.
21:24:50 <Sgeo_> mroman, but there are two different stories here
21:24:55 <elliott___> so when a police report gets amended due to new information
21:24:58 <elliott___> you don't believe the new shit
21:25:07 <elliott___> (s/police report/news story/ etc.)
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21:25:14 <Sgeo_> (Well, more, the Gospel accounts kind of paint different stories, but that's irrelevant here)
21:25:14 <elliott___> also why do you think the new testament is a retelling of the old one
21:25:20 <elliott___> since this is the only circumstance in which this argument makes any sense
21:25:21 <mroman> elliott___: That's something totally different.
21:25:24 <Sgeo_> The later story happened later than the earlier story
21:25:31 <Sgeo_> (If we imagine that they happened)
21:25:39 <oklopol> it's a story?
21:25:45 <Phantom_Hoover> mroman, wait are you saying you think the old testament is even vaguely reliable
21:26:03 <mroman> No :(
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21:26:19 <mroman> I'm just telling that, if I have two versions of a imaginary story
21:26:27 <mroman> where I can't prove anything I'd believe the older version
21:26:29 <Phantom_Hoover> (you don't)
21:26:40 <elliott___> why do you think the new testament is a revision of the old testament this is so ignorant holy cow
21:26:43 <Vorpal> mroman, why?
21:26:45 <elliott___> they're completely separate texts
21:26:47 <Sgeo_> You don't have two versions of an imaginary stories, you have two different imaginary stories.
21:26:54 <mroman> as it is probably the version not forged/biased/adulterated over time
21:26:57 <elliott___> why do you think the new testament is a revision of the old testament this is so ignorant holy cow
21:26:58 <elliott___> why do you think the new testament is a revision of the old testament this is so ignorant holy cow
21:26:58 <elliott___> why do you think the new testament is a revision of the old testament this is so ignorant holy cow
21:26:59 <elliott___> why do you think the new testament is a revision of the old testament this is so ignorant holy cow
21:27:06 <Vorpal> elliott___, surely that is Hinduism? ;P
21:27:06 <mroman> elliott___: I DON'T
21:27:12 <mroman> I never said that.
21:27:14 <elliott___> apparently i have to state the obvious error 10 times to get a reply
21:27:19 <elliott___> mroman: <mroman> I'm just telling that, if I have two versions of a imaginary story
21:27:24 <elliott___> then what are the two testaments a version of
21:27:33 <mroman> What the f*
21:27:55 <oklopol> this conversation doesn't work.
21:28:24 <elliott___> it's not a conversation, it's me yelling at people
21:28:25 <oklopol> let's change the topic.
21:28:33 <oklopol> WELL FUCK YOU THEN ASS MONSTER
21:28:37 <mroman> elliott___: I *thought* they were two different versions
21:28:42 <elliott___> oklopol: no i was enjoying this channel for the first time in months
21:28:44 <mroman> until somebody mentioned that they are not.
21:28:45 <elliott___> : (
21:28:46 <Sgeo_> Well, to be fair, the different stories describe the same character in different ways
21:28:47 <elliott___> mroman: ok
21:28:48 <Phantom_Hoover> No it's not, it's you yelling at a person.
21:28:51 <elliott___> (they aren't)
21:28:53 <oklopol> elliott___: just trying to join the fun
21:28:57 <elliott___> Phantom_Hoover: THAT CAN CHANGE VERY FUCKING RAPIDLY
21:29:02 <mroman> and I understood that.
21:29:21 <oklopol> i didn't really feel the hostility
21:29:23 <mroman> when suddenly people started assuming stuff I never said.
21:29:24 <elliott___> Vorpal: ha ha ha ha (vorpal told me to react to the joke)
21:29:30 <elliott___> oklopol: sorry :/ i'll try harder
21:29:32 <oklopol> perhaps because mroman is so annoyingly civil
21:29:38 <Vorpal> elliott___, :P
21:29:41 <oklopol> so elliott___ just looks silly
21:29:42 <elliott___> i only managed to get to mildly irritated i'm afraid
21:29:50 <oklopol> hmph
21:29:50 <elliott___> it is hard
21:29:50 <Sgeo_> So, which of two opposite characterizations would you believe from the distinct stories that supposedly occured at different times?
21:29:53 <oklopol> what have they done to you
21:30:03 <Sgeo_> Note that one of the characterizations is that the character's character doesn't change.
21:30:11 <elliott___> (however mroman's policy of believing older stories is still illogical and "wack" as they say)
21:30:18 <mroman> My whole statement was based on the fact, that the two stories were the same but different versions
21:30:35 <oklopol> (ILLOGI-FUCKING-CAL)
21:30:37 <mroman> and if that assumption doesn't hold, my statement is automatically irrelevant.
21:30:43 <elliott___> oklopol: no im down to a gentle simmer
21:31:09 <oklopol> okay, that's cool i guess
21:31:15 <mroman> elliott___: It's like
21:31:20 <mroman> You tell a story to your kids
21:31:23 <mroman> and your kids to their kids
21:31:23 <oklopol> so in 7.5 hours i need to do some laundry
21:31:25 <elliott___> i don't have kids, checkmate
21:31:27 <mroman> and their kids to their kids
21:31:32 <mroman> no
21:31:33 <elliott___> mroman: that's origin/parentage-wise
21:31:38 <elliott___> mroman: nothing to do with chronology
21:31:45 <elliott___> i could tell someone else the story after my kids tell it, for instance
21:31:52 <mroman> I would believe the original story more than versions passed on over time.
21:32:06 <elliott___> Phantom_Hoover: im going to play crawl and you have to watch me
21:32:16 <Sgeo_> So, I guess mroman could argue that the NT probably has not changed as mich as the OT
21:32:18 <Vorpal> <elliott___> (however mroman's policy of believing older stories is still illogical and "wack" as they say) <-- yeah, it is the opposite of an LRU cache
21:32:19 <oklopol> (is one of you actually trying to go somewhere with this?)
21:32:32 <Sgeo_> Since the NT is closer to its origin than the OT is to its
21:32:45 <elliott___> oklopol: no
21:32:51 <elliott___> i am just enjoying life
21:32:51 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott___, but i want to play new vegas :(
21:32:53 <oklopol> ooh crawl it's that game with "hard" bosses no?
21:33:43 <oklopol> elliott___: okay that's cool
21:33:48 <oklopol> so how's life?
21:34:07 <oklopol> perhaps i should harrass you in priv, haven't done that in a while
21:34:11 <oklopol> i'll think about this
21:34:25 <elliott___> oklopol: who told you crawl has "hard" bosses
21:34:28 <elliott___> crawl is fairly challenging
21:34:46 <elliott___> i am no good at it; the best players can win at something like a 40% rate
21:34:48 <oklopol> well i think you, so now i think no one.
21:35:00 <oklopol> oh
21:35:02 <oklopol> so you just suck
21:35:05 <elliott___> it has a difficult earlygame and a difficult extended endgame
21:35:10 <elliott___> oklopol: well yes
21:35:15 <elliott___> but 40% win rates are very rare
21:35:17 <elliott___> anyway Phantom_Hoover tough
21:35:18 <elliott___> open putty
21:35:19 <oklopol> i would totally like totally own at it
21:35:22 <elliott___> mmm
21:35:24 <elliott___> oklopol: you should play
21:35:27 <elliott___> i'll watch
21:35:35 <oklopol> i think i could do like 50%
21:35:41 <elliott___> go for it
21:35:42 <mroman> And what'd be the correct term for "older" origin-wise?
21:35:46 <oklopol> i totally will
21:36:00 <oklopol> maybe even 60% actually
21:36:06 <mroman> "most original"?
21:36:25 <oklopol> grandparentlier
21:36:34 <elliott___> oklopol: ok
21:36:38 <elliott___> oklopol: do you want me to tell you how to play on the server
21:36:40 <elliott___> (offline doesn't count)
21:36:56 <Vorpal> <elliott___> i am no good at it; the best players can win at something like a 40% rate <-- so much harder than nethack? Or are the players less skilled?
21:37:03 <oklopol> elliott___: umm i'm going to sleep pretty suun :D
21:37:05 <oklopol> soon
21:37:12 <oklopol> suun o_O
21:37:17 <elliott___> oklopol: that's ok you'll die quickly enough
21:37:26 <Phantom_Hoover> cuun
21:37:36 <oklopol> sorry i already did one crazy thing today
21:37:37 <elliott___> Vorpal: nethack is really easy once you get good at it, the early-game is the only risk whatsoever
21:37:43 <Vorpal> indeed
21:37:59 <elliott___> the longest streak of crawl wins is 23 games
21:38:05 <elliott___> (and no, the top players are very skilled)
21:38:07 <mroman> I thought of "oldest version" as "the first version of that story ever told"
21:38:38 <elliott___> Vorpal: basically crawl has a very difficult early game (nethack's early game is very easy in comparison)
21:38:45 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott___, what kind of difficulty though?
21:38:47 <oklopol> mroman: so how's the weather up there in your land?
21:38:54 <elliott___> Phantom_Hoover: it's hard to describe, why don't you try it!!!
21:38:54 <Vorpal> elliott___, ouch
21:38:58 <elliott___> oklopol: two crazy things would set a record!
21:39:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Like, when you lose is it generally your fault to some extent?
21:39:13 <oklopol> elliott___: i already set a record today
21:39:21 <mroman> oklopol: Windy
21:39:21 <elliott___> Phantom_Hoover: basically yes, in that if you watch the game you will see a way to get out of the situation
21:39:25 <mroman> but warm.
21:39:38 <elliott___> Phantom_Hoover: some earlygame deaths come close to being "unavoidable" by reasonable standards I'd say
21:39:44 <elliott___> but mostly it is stupidity
21:39:48 <elliott___> oklopol: which one
21:40:12 <elliott___> Vorpal: also you don't really get the thing with nethack where resists are 100% and you have low enough AC (high enough AC in Crawl) that nothing ever does damage
21:40:32 <oklopol> "exactest characterization of the commutator of an affine CA on a full shift"
21:40:32 <Vorpal> ah
21:40:48 <oklopol> although tbh i came up with that after saying i had a record.
21:40:49 <mroman> Not hot, couthie warm.
21:40:55 <oklopol> perhaps guinness wouldn't take it
21:41:09 <oklopol> btw have you seen their new books? wtf, there's not a single record.
21:41:27 <elliott___> now i really want to see oklopol play crawl :'(
21:41:35 <oklopol> "tallest mountain, greatest population, most wins in fucking ass hockey by country"
21:42:19 <elliott___> oklopol: do you happen to have PuTTY already
21:42:27 <oklopol> their 1991 book was probably part of the reason i love meaningless skills so much, it was a life-shaping superbook. it has all kinds of cool stuff like how many km someone has crawled.
21:42:31 <elliott___> you could be playing crawl in like three minutes
21:42:46 <oklopol> some day.
21:42:54 <elliott___> so boring
21:42:57 <oklopol> also i hope you realize that i will suck.
21:43:19 <oklopol> rpgs are too complicated
21:43:41 <elliott___> crawl is not really an rpg
21:43:55 <elliott___> i would say the basic gameplay is simpler than most rpgs
21:44:01 <oklopol> so Phantom_Hoover where exactly are you located?
21:44:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Edinburgh.
21:45:25 <oklopol> oh right scotland not northern ireland.
21:45:34 <oklopol> i'm sure you confuse the two all the time as well
21:45:50 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't have to go to Ireland this summer, thankfully.
21:49:36 <elliott___> ojiewjfoiwjefoi
21:50:39 <oklopol> i was asking because my gf is in northern ireland and i have fetish for watching her do math with my irc contacts.
21:51:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Where in NI?
21:51:06 <oklopol> belfast
21:51:15 <Phantom_Hoover> (Why am I asking, there are two universities and both are in Belfast.)
21:51:27 <Phantom_Hoover> (There are other things too and most of them are also in Belfast.)
21:51:39 <oklopol> she's not at the university, more of a vacation
21:52:26 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol why are you going out with someone that crazy
21:53:04 <oklopol> dunno. she's not even a mathematician :(
21:53:27 <elliott___> maybe i will settle for watching Vorpal play crawl
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21:53:29 <Phantom_Hoover> does she at least let you have sex in a bath of coke?
21:53:30 <elliott___> you'll do that right Vorpal
21:55:14 <oklopol> haven't asked yet. i have asked her if she'd let me paint her blue though.
21:56:03 <Phantom_Hoover> ah was this part of acting out your avatar fanfics
21:56:17 <oklopol> i haven't seen that
21:56:52 <oklopol> i guess it's more of a painting people blue fetish.
21:57:40 <oklopol> she wasn't very enthusiastic about the idea :/
21:58:30 <epicmonkey> so she just doesn't like blue very much
21:58:35 <elliott___> you're all shit
22:00:28 -!- kallisti has joined.
22:00:28 -!- kallisti has quit (Changing host).
22:00:28 -!- kallisti has joined.
22:00:28 <oklopol> i guess.
22:00:36 <epicmonkey> nobody cares
22:00:46 -!- nortti_ has joined.
22:01:13 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
22:01:45 <elliott___> epicmonkey: nobody cares about what
22:01:52 <oklopol> elliott___: shit.
22:02:00 <epicmonkey> exactly
22:02:16 <elliott___> how long have you been here epicmonkey
22:02:17 <elliott___> just curious
22:02:20 <oerjan> i sense the beginning of a beautiful friendship.
22:02:24 * oerjan sidles away.
22:02:29 <epicmonkey> one day and a half I guess
22:02:48 <oklopol> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulIOrQasR18
22:03:02 <oklopol> i just find that so inspiring
22:03:03 <elliott___> 1.5! that's a lot of days
22:03:45 <oklopol> elliott___: are you playing the i've been here longer card? because hitler did.
22:03:59 <epicmonkey> one, two... oh, wai~~
22:04:35 <elliott___> epicmonkey: how's your life?
22:04:47 -!- oerjan has set topic: CHANNEL CURRENTLY CLOSED DUE TO GODWINNING | last topic change: today | monkeys not welcome unless they bring bananas | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
22:05:01 <epicmonkey> life sucks, everyone knows this, dude.
22:05:03 <oklopol> god won?
22:05:17 -!- oerjan has set topic: CHANNEL CURRENTLY CLOSED DUE TO GODWINNING (NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH GOD WINNING) | last topic change: today | monkeys not welcome unless they bring bananas | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
22:05:27 <elliott___> epicmonkey: sorry to hear that. my life is ok sometimes!
22:06:06 <oklopol> elliott___: so i recall at some point you thought life was like crap and shit but then later you were all like life is kind of okay i guess that's a good progression.
22:06:33 <elliott___> oklopol: it is both
22:06:35 <elliott___> and it is neither
22:06:40 <elliott___> do you feel?
22:06:55 <oklopol> i feel.
22:06:57 <oerjan> ye olde sine curve.  or was that tan.
22:07:05 <elliott___> epicmonkey: anything interesting happen today?
22:07:19 <oklopol> we started a promising article today!
22:07:36 <elliott___> oklopol: i wasn't talking to you, asshole
22:07:43 <Phantom_Hoover> The Tomlinson trial came out with a verdict of not guilty?
22:07:56 <epicmonkey> do you know anything about genetic programming? I think I get stuck
22:07:58 <Phantom_Hoover> My dad made a lot of noise when that came up on the radio.
22:08:15 <elliott___> epicmonkey: a little bit, but not really. is that what you were doing today?
22:08:25 <oklopol> elliott___: fuck you and your stupid fuck ass brain mammoth banana.
22:08:34 <epicmonkey> kind of
22:08:34 <elliott___> Phantom_Hoover: how surprising.
22:08:51 <epicmonkey> oklopol: this is my poor hat.
22:09:32 <epicmonkey> probably this one: http://cdn.static.ovimg.com/episode/131184.jpg
22:10:09 <elliott___> Phantom_Hoover: are you surprised
22:10:11 <elliott___> im making a face : :O
22:10:17 <elliott___> maybe the mouth will detach from the eyes
22:10:19 <elliott___> go do its own thing
22:10:20 <epicmonkey> the problem with GP is I don't get what is fitness function for a continuous problem
22:10:21 <elliott___> :           O
22:10:26 <elliott___> :           O
22:10:38 <elliott___> O :
22:11:06 <elliott___> help im going backwards
22:11:11 <oklopol> epicmonkey: just use something random and it'll go great.
22:11:23 <itidus21> this is todays idea for a bitmap image format (based on floodfills): http://oi46.tinypic.com/wclnh4.jpg
22:11:50 <elliott___> itidus21: may i use the bottom-left image on my wiki user page
22:12:00 <Phantom_Hoover>  0):                                       (2 0
22:12:02 <itidus21> damn you can type fast
22:12:04 <Phantom_Hoover> oh for
22:12:12 <elliott___> Phantom_Hoover: you dont look shocked enough
22:12:14 <Phantom_Hoover>  0):                                       ( 0
22:12:17 <elliott___> itidus21: y or n
22:12:30 <itidus21> oh you said may i.. yeah no problem
22:12:39 <itidus21> its public domain 0
22:12:40 <itidus21> hereby
22:12:42 <itidus21> lol
22:12:47 <itidus21> or whatever
22:13:03 <elliott___> you just have to agree to release it under the terms at http://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/
22:13:13 <oklopol> i type even slower than before nowadays because i've broken all my keys :(
22:13:16 <itidus21> yeah, thats the terms intended
22:13:22 <elliott___> thank you sir
22:13:40 <epicmonkey> Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 Unported License sounds better
22:13:42 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus21, is that image meant to be a Voronoi map?
22:13:48 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
22:14:04 <elliott___> epicmonkey: that's nonfree
22:14:15 <epicmonkey> specially for you: Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 Unported License Free
22:14:42 <epicmonkey> does it make it free? :-P
22:15:13 <itidus21> Phantom_Hoover: it's meant to be a way for storing bitmap images
22:15:33 <elliott___> epicmonkey: noncommercial licenses violate the OSI, FSF and DFSG criteria
22:15:35 <elliott___> so no
22:15:39 <elliott___> (no restrictions on field of use, to be precise)
22:15:49 <itidus21> perhaps coinciding with voronoi
22:15:53 <nortti_> but is can't be used in commercial situations. so itcis nonfree. actually anything more redtrictive than CC0, WTFPL or PD is nonfree
22:16:15 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus21, oh, so you've invented SVG with none of the advantages of SVG.
22:16:28 <itidus21> hummm....
22:16:41 <elliott___> nortti_: that is an erroneous definition of free
22:16:54 <nortti_> why?
22:16:56 <elliott___> requiring attribution is hardly nonfree
22:17:07 <elliott___> by any definition worth its salt
22:17:18 <nortti_> oh. yeah
22:17:45 <epicmonkey> elliott___: that stinks! what do I get a long name if noncommercial licenses are broken?
22:17:48 <itidus21> Phantom_Hoover: i'd love to actually see how it performed.. i laid in bed for a while thinking about encoding schemes
22:17:49 <elliott___> anyway the GPL is obviously free, claiming otherwise is agenda-pushing, but that does not necessarily mean it is ideal
22:17:52 <Phantom_Hoover> epicmonkey, the wiki has traditionally been public domain.
22:17:54 <elliott___> epicmonkey: you could make your own license!!!
22:18:02 <epicmonkey> woohoo!
22:18:07 <elliott___> but yes, I specifically promised Graue I would keep PD licensing, so it will be for naught :P
22:18:24 <nortti_> good
22:18:25 <oklopol> copyright is murder
22:18:32 <elliott___> of course now I am nearly as inactive as him. but not quite: I actually updated the software recently!!
22:19:14 <nortti_> oklopol: are you member/supporter of pirate party
22:19:23 <oerjan> elliott___: there's probably a wiki admin curse
22:19:25 <oklopol> no.
22:19:28 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus21, it'd do well for block-filled pictures with sharp, black edges.
22:19:34 <Phantom_Hoover> So is SVG, and it's scalable besides.
22:19:44 <oklopol> nor any other party
22:19:48 <elliott___> oerjan: it is not a curse
22:20:02 <oklopol> i do think i should be able to do whatever i like with my internet though.
22:20:03 <itidus21> Phantom_Hoover: well the picture actually does a really terrible job showing it off
22:20:03 <oerjan> elliott___: THAT'S what they all say.
22:20:25 <oerjan> but that's part of it, you see
22:21:00 <elliott___> oerjan: i mean, i like the effects
22:21:04 <elliott___> it is relaxing to not care about it
22:21:17 <itidus21> Phantom_Hoover: well.. like i figure that you can represent some interesting voronoi maps with 1bit with minimal outlining
22:21:35 <itidus21> but i didnt know they were called voronoi maps
22:21:47 <Phantom_Hoover> You're not using Voronoi anything, that was a misunderstanding.
22:21:53 <itidus21> hmmm
22:22:37 <Phantom_Hoover> A Voronoi map is one where you have a set of points on the map and you split the map according to which point is nearest.
22:22:55 <elliott___> <CTCP>VERSION<CTCP>
22:23:46 -!- copumpkin has joined.
22:23:48 <elliott___> soundnfury's client is apparently called the empty string
22:24:01 <nortti_> elliott___: why you ctcp'd my version
22:24:07 <oerjan> not much sound and fury in that
22:24:07 <elliott___> i ctcp'd the whole channel
22:24:11 <elliott___> for fun
22:24:12 <nortti_> oh
22:24:24 <oerjan> *for devious secret purposes
22:24:28 <elliott___> still as much irssi as ever
22:24:34 <nortti_> did you find out anything intersting?
22:24:38 <elliott___> SimonRC: upgrade yr irssi
22:24:41 <elliott___> ineiros: you too
22:24:56 <elliott___> nortti_: not really
22:25:11 <oklopol> i use irssi nowadays but i made it version pong mirc.
22:25:15 <elliott___> Gregor: your version replies are screwed
22:25:19 <elliott___> -Gregor- VERSION bip-0.8.8
22:25:19 <elliott___> -Gregor- VERSION xchat 2.8.8 Linux 2.6.35.4 [x86_64/2.33GHz/SMP]
22:25:19 <elliott___> -Gregor- VERSION xchat 2.8.8 Linux 3.1-0.slh.5-aptosid-amd64 [x86_64/800.50MHz/SMP]
22:25:19 <elliott___> -Gregor- VERSION Microsoft IRC# 2013 64-bit (Windows 9 Developer Pre-Alpha Release, x64, 1.5GB RAM)
22:25:22 <elliott___> kind of ruins the IRC# thing "sorry"
22:25:28 <elliott___> i like how you upgraded it to windows 9
22:25:37 <nortti_> :P
22:25:45 <elliott___> oklopol: there is no way you would have the patience to do the colouring/bolding/underlining in that version reply
22:25:53 <elliott___> "busted!!!!!!!!!!"
22:26:36 <oklopol> actually i probably would, sounds like fun. but i don't have the patience to install irssi.
22:26:54 <oklopol> since i didn't like it when i last tried it
22:27:40 <elliott___> i don't like irssi
22:27:50 <elliott___> i am happy with xchat
22:27:57 -!- MSleep has joined.
22:28:17 <oklopol> i'm almost happy with mirc + nnscript. there are some annoying details.
22:28:52 <oklopol> xchat, irssi and kvirc had more
22:29:32 <elliott___> use ircII and be cool
22:29:36 <elliott___> ("cool")
22:29:50 <epicmonkey> cuul
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22:30:14 -!- tswett has joined.
22:30:16 <nortti_> elliott___: can you help me with ircII? I haven't bothered to compile irssi with 486
22:30:32 <nortti_> (running netbsd)
22:30:59 <elliott___> what help do you need, i have barely even used ircii
22:31:00 <oklopol> yeah elliott___ given that you are such a fan of ircII could you give us a lecture
22:31:03 <elliott___> i think i tried it for like two minutes
22:31:33 <nortti_> elliott___: putting multiple channels in different windows like with irssi
22:31:47 <elliott___> i think it is possible?
22:31:49 <elliott___> I don't know how .
22:31:54 <nortti_> ok
22:32:08 <Phantom_Hoover> cuil
22:32:13 <oklopol> cillu
22:32:14 <elliott___> cf http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/94/Ircii.png
22:32:35 <elliott___> (what a dumb screenshot)
22:32:38 <Phantom_Hoover> cilia
22:32:45 <oklopol> lcii
22:32:55 -!- MSleep has changed nick to MDude.
22:33:17 -!- oklopol has changed nick to sleepopol.
22:33:19 <sleepopol> nigt
22:33:23 <oerjan> you could?  multiple channels was like the most convenient new feature i noticed when i changed from ircII to irssi, way back...
22:33:25 <sleepopol> night
22:33:37 <elliott___> oerjan: well it could always be a "new" feature.
22:33:44 <oerjan> (i cannot honestly recall if it happened before or after i came here)
22:33:55 <elliott___> people used ircii in 2006?
22:34:14 <itidus21> here is a more practical example of the image format being used (theres 4 white pixels in the resulting picture due to how i did it) http://oi45.tinypic.com/2gwhksl.jpg
22:34:32 <oerjan> i cannot recall, i said.  but i didn't use irc much before 2006
22:34:54 <sleepopol> then what the hell did you do
22:34:59 <oerjan> i recall being on #initgame way back in the '90s
22:35:07 <elliott___> what's initgame
22:35:17 <oerjan> it was a game played on irc
22:35:26 <sleepopol> it's this channel with just me in it
22:35:34 <sleepopol> oh right sleep time
22:35:35 <oerjan> presumably EFNET, i don't think things had really split up by then
22:35:45 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:37:05 <elliott___> oerjan: how did you play
22:37:27 <oerjan> someone would change their nick to something like WW_LAXF or whatever the exact format was, and everyone would ask yes-no questions to that person until someone guessed it was Willy Wonka or whatever
22:37:50 <oerjan> the part after _ was a kind of code, Live American something Fictional
22:38:00 * oerjan has forgotten one of them
22:38:16 <oerjan> hm or was it Alive
22:38:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Xplicit?
22:38:57 <oerjan> Alive/Dead American/Non-Americn Real/Fictional and i've forgotten one
22:39:35 <oerjan> perhaps there was a Human/Non-human in there
22:39:56 <oerjan> *+a
22:39:58 <elliott___> american/non-american, heh
22:40:15 <oerjan> i vaguely think British was also sometimes used
22:40:21 <oerjan> but not really consistently
22:40:35 <elliott___> how did you decide alive/dead for fictional chars
22:40:46 * oerjan recalls confusing everyone with Christopher Milne
22:41:05 <oerjan> i had to put X for alive/dead, i think
22:41:23 <oerjan> i cannot recall if i put X for fictional
22:41:55 <oerjan> (X for unknown or not appropriate, naturally)
22:42:04 <elliott___> was efnet scary back in the day
22:42:21 <oerjan> i dunno, i didn't visit many other channels.  i guess not.
22:42:24 -!- dessos has joined.
22:43:04 <oerjan> oh and of course the winner got to change nick next.
22:43:16 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
22:45:12 <oerjan> <sleepopol> then what the hell did you do <-- i spent a lot of time on Usenet
22:46:00 <elliott___> i read usenet troll threads occasionally
22:46:10 <oerjan> <elliott___> how did you decide alive/dead for fictional chars <-- presumably by whether they'd died in the story, i think
22:46:10 <elliott___> they are the most baffling thing on the internet i know of
22:46:24 <nortti_> why?
22:47:02 <itidus21> phanton: well, i've decided that 2 bit colour for the bitmap is best, enabling me to exploit the four-color theorum, still leaving run lengths of 8192
22:47:02 <elliott___> because
22:48:21 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:48:23 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
22:48:29 <elliott___> oerjan: entertain me
22:48:48 <oerjan> no one can entertain you, elliott.  you are beyond humanity now.
22:49:40 <oerjan> btw i finally registered on reddit
22:49:41 <elliott___> ok
22:49:51 <oerjan> oerjan was still available :P
22:49:53 <elliott___> i noticed your post has a score of 0
22:50:03 <oerjan> the first one, yes
22:50:10 <elliott___> oerjan: please do not lie about the reflection package in a way that wil lcause people to avoid it
22:50:13 <itidus21> 2^5 = run lengths of 32, 2 bits of colour, 1 bit to indicate a flood-fill point at the end of the run. maybe that's best.
22:50:20 <oerjan> elliott___: that wasn't a lie.
22:50:37 <elliott___> oerjan: well, it is untrue and I specifically remember mentioning how it was being done in here at th etime
22:50:50 <oerjan> wat
22:51:01 <elliott___> there is a portable non-unsafeCoerce implementation that will work on _any_ Haskell compiler with the extensions required for the interface and the FFI.
22:51:15 <elliott___> it is used for all implementations for which the unportable implementation has not been specifically tested
22:51:18 <elliott___> (i.e., anything but GHC and Hugs.)
22:51:30 <elliott___> therefore the reflection package is as portable as its interface allows + GHC, Hugs or the FFI.
22:52:25 <oerjan> ok i guess i should have mentioned that the efficient implementation is optional.  should i edit?
22:53:01 <elliott___> it is probably no big deal, but I'd point out that the implementation is only used on implementations for which it has been tested, and there is a safe fallback. apologies for accusing you of lying
22:56:58 <oerjan> is it best to edit or to respond to yourself, btw?
22:57:16 <oerjan> given that it's been a day or so.
22:58:38 <elliott___> no problem with editing, I don't think; just add it at the bottom with an edit note if you want... replying to yourself won't notify anybody, anyway
22:58:46 <oerjan> ok
23:03:02 * oerjan thought better of including "(put away the gun, ehird)" in the edit
23:05:00 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
23:06:26 -!- Deewiant has joined.
23:07:24 <kallisti> `run ghc -e '2 + 2'
23:07:27 <HackEgo> ghc: can't find a package database at /usr/lib/ghc-6.12.1/package.conf.d
23:07:34 <kallisti> Gregor: why does this happen
23:07:38 <kallisti> elliott___: why does this happen
23:07:50 <kallisti> is it because you're a weird imaginry user?
23:08:03 <elliott___> what
23:08:09 <oerjan> `ls /usr/lib/ghc-6.12.1/
23:08:12 <HackEgo> Cabal-1.8.0.2 \ array-0.3.0.0 \ base-3.0.3.2 \ base-4.2.0.0 \ bin \ bin-package-db-0.0.0.0 \ bytestring-0.9.1.5 \ containers-0.3.0.0 \ directory-1.0.1.0 \ dph-base-0.4.0 \ dph-par-0.4.0 \ dph-prim-interface-0.4.0 \ dph-prim-par-0.4.0 \ dph-prim-seq-0.4.0 \ dph-seq-0.4.0 \ extensible-exceptions-0.1.1.1 \ extra-gcc-opts \ filepath-1.1.0.3 \ ghc-6.12.1 \ ghc-asm \ ghc-binary-0.5.0.2 \ ghc-prim-0.2.0.0 \ ghc-split
23:08:25 <elliott___> `ls /usr/lib/ghc-6.12.1/package.conf.d
23:08:28 <HackEgo> ​/usr/lib/ghc-6.12.1/package.conf.d
23:08:40 <kallisti> does it need write access perhaps?
23:08:47 <kallisti> and maybe ghc sucks at error reporting?
23:09:03 <oerjan> kallisti: almost certainly not for ordinary use...
23:09:21 <oerjan> but it needs to be set up the first time, i assume
23:09:52 <oerjan> `run ls -l /usr/lib/ghc-6.12.1/package.conf.d
23:09:54 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 0 0 34 Dec 20  2011 /usr/lib/ghc-6.12.1/package.conf.d -> /var/lib/ghc-6.12.1/package.conf.d
23:10:02 <kallisti> oh that's why.
23:10:07 <kallisti> er, wait
23:10:09 <oerjan> `run ls -l /var/lib/ghc-6.12.1/package.conf.d
23:10:12 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /var/lib/ghc-6.12.1/package.conf.d: No such file or directory
23:10:15 <oerjan> aha
23:10:16 <kallisti> yep
23:10:24 <kallisti> `run ls /var/lib
23:10:26 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /var/lib: No such file or directory
23:10:28 <kallisti> `run ls /
23:10:30 <HackEgo> bin \ dev \ etc \ hackenv \ home \ lib \ lib64 \ opt \ proc \ sbin \ sys \ tmp \ usr \ var
23:10:32 <kallisti> yep
23:10:36 <kallisti> `run ls /var
23:10:39 <HackEgo> irclogs
23:10:43 <kallisti> right. okay.
23:10:47 <kallisti> I KNOW THE FIX NOW
23:10:54 <kallisti> thanks.
23:11:40 <kallisti> (if you're curious the fix is to add -t /var  to the umlbox invocation)
23:11:48 <oerjan> ...but you don't have access to apply it.
23:12:20 <kallisti> on this bot. I'm hacking my perl bot to be a hackego clone (and then playing around with persistent environment and possibly daemons)
23:12:27 <kallisti> I have a persistent environment currently
23:12:34 <oerjan> ok
23:15:00 <kallisti> hm, except there's some permission error when I do that.
23:15:20 <kallisti> oh nevermind it's -f /var
23:15:22 <kallisti> not -t /var
23:18:21 <Vorpal> wow, why is it so terribly easy to overload even modern windows by doing massive disk IO. I managed to bring this monster of a machine to it's knees by uncompressing a compressed DVD ISO. Seriously. Core i7 at 3.4 GHz, 4 cores + hyper threading. 16 GB RAM. Very fast disk.
23:18:28 <Vorpal> windows IO scheduler sucks
23:19:27 <nortti_> :P
23:20:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Wow, Northern Ireland has a separate legal system.
23:20:13 <kallisti> my bot is now some frankenstein lambdabot, hackego, egobot hybrid.
23:20:18 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, from the rest of UK?
23:20:27 <Phantom_Hoover> So that makes 3 in total for the UK.
23:20:36 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, which are the other two?
23:20:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Scots and English.
23:20:46 <Vorpal> ah
23:20:54 <Vorpal> poor Welsh, not getting their own
23:21:20 <nortti_> kallisti: have you gotten simh to sanely interact with text streams not coming from tty?
23:21:24 <Phantom_Hoover> The UK is basically split into Scotland, NI and "England and Wales", the latter being a monolithic entity.
23:21:51 <kallisti> nortti_: I have not done any of that.
23:21:59 <elliott___> Phantom_Hoover: is anything in wales
23:22:26 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott___, the most significant thing I can honestly remember about Wales is that Doctor Who is based there.
23:22:31 <Vorpal> oh look, now I'm copying 15 GB from an SSD to a HDD. Yet again windows 7 spaces out badly.
23:22:47 <kallisti> nortti_: I have a umlbox sandbox with persistent environment variables (and exported functions), a way to bind commands to shell scripts (instead of doing the automatic "pass all input to $1" thing), and it uses git instead of hg. and that's about the extent of the differences.
23:23:26 <Phantom_Hoover> I also note that all 3 legal systems have different bases; English law is pure common law, Irish is common and statute and Scots law is a hybrid of common and civil law
23:23:27 <Vorpal> elliott___, well there is that place with the crazy long name I guess?
23:23:37 <Vorpal> and from what I understand, sheep?
23:23:43 <Vorpal> yeah not a lot
23:24:16 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, statute? What is that
23:24:28 <Vorpal> oh the normal way
23:24:30 <Vorpal> right
23:24:36 <Phantom_Hoover> New Zealand is basically the same except s/Doctor Who/New Zealand/.
23:24:48 <kallisti> Phantom_Hoover: the US is mostly common law, right?
23:24:57 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, New Zealand is cool though
23:25:00 <kallisti> maybe a hybrid of common/civil.
23:25:06 -!- edwardk has joined.
23:25:06 <Phantom_Hoover> kallisti, yes (it might be all common law).
23:25:10 <Vorpal> they film so many movies there
23:25:52 <Phantom_Hoover> It's underdeveloped and has lots of mountains.
23:25:53 <elliott___> Phantom_Hoover: new zealand is cool
23:26:04 <elliott___> i will go there one day when i am rich and there are no problems in life
23:26:06 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, how does civil and statute law differ?
23:26:12 <Vorpal> I thought they were the same thing?
23:26:13 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott___, duh, which is better out of Doctor Who and LotR?
23:26:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, that is a no-brainer
23:26:30 <elliott___> Phantom_Hoover: probably lotr?
23:26:34 <Vorpal> LotR easily
23:26:36 -!- lifthrasiir has joined.
23:26:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, here the fact that I am in fact regurgitating Wikipedia becomes painfully apparent.
23:26:58 <elliott___> Phantom_Hoover: i mean i like the films and doctor who as a whole is kind of bad
23:26:59 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott___, also New Zealand has Flight of the Conchords so that makes 1 more thing than Wales?
23:27:02 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, XD
23:27:11 <elliott___> but there are a few series that might tip the scales
23:27:11 <oerjan> there's a state in the USA which isn't common law, isn't there.
23:27:20 <elliott___> Phantom_Hoover: i don't like flight of the conchords, i forget why. i used to.
23:27:28 <kallisti> Phantom_Hoover: that's great. if there's anything I love it's room for law to be vaguely interpreted by some random guy(s).
23:27:33 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:LegalSystemsOfTheWorldMap.png suggests there is.
23:27:46 <Phantom_Hoover> kallisti, well that's an oversimplification.
23:27:56 <kallisti> yes. it is.
23:28:13 <Phantom_Hoover> And indeed wrong; civil law is the one subject to interpretation, common law dispenses with the interpretation altogether.
23:28:49 <kallisti> are you sure?
23:29:01 <kallisti> we do a lot of precedenting around here.
23:29:02 <elliott___> kallisti: clearly it is much better for law to be a platonic game of nomic so more people get away on technicalities and people are convicted for doing nothing wrong
23:29:05 <Phantom_Hoover> The way I understand it, in common law the interpretation /is/ the law.
23:29:13 <kallisti> elliott___: yeah that's the other extreme.
23:29:28 <elliott___> common law seems to work as fine as law systems do
23:29:42 <Phantom_Hoover> If someone interprets it in a way you don't like you have precedent to fall back on.
23:30:07 <kallisti> hm, okay.
23:30:19 <elliott___> oerjan: hi
23:30:24 <oerjan> ho
23:31:42 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: louisiana, it was.  presumably because it was bought from france.
23:31:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah.
23:33:04 <oerjan> "However, it is incorrect to equate the Louisiana Civil Code with the Napoleonic Code. Although the Napoleonic Code strongly influenced Louisiana law, it was never in force in Louisiana, as it was enacted in 1804, after the Louisiana Purchase of 1803."
23:44:17 <elliott___> talk
23:44:18 <elliott___> thx
23:44:28 <oerjan> NEVER
23:50:43 <elliott___> this is boring
23:51:18 <Phantom_Hoover> consider pressing alt+tab, or whatever it is in your wm
23:52:40 <oerjan> the channel is often silent at this time of day
23:53:43 <nortti_> @time Phantom_Hoover
23:53:44 <lambdabot> Local time for Phantom_Hoover is Fri Jul 20 00:53:36
23:54:08 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
23:54:11 <nortti_> Phantom_Hoover: where do you live?
23:54:23 <Phantom_Hoover> ...Edinburgh?
23:54:44 <Vorpal> <oerjan> the channel is often silent at this time of day <-- we have elliott back though, it is never silent then
23:56:28 <oerjan> yes, something's wrong with him.
23:56:38 * oerjan prods elliott___ with a stick
23:57:29 <Vorpal> oerjan, don't scare him away
23:57:47 <Vorpal> @time
23:57:53 <Vorpal> @time Vorpal
23:58:03 <Vorpal> how do you set your timezone with that bot?
23:58:06 <Vorpal> @time Phantom_Hoover 
23:58:07 <lambdabot> Local time for Phantom_Hoover is Fri Jul 20 00:57:59
23:58:11 <Vorpal> @time oerjan
23:58:12 <lambdabot> Local time for oerjan is Fri Jul 20 01:58:11 2012
23:58:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, it's using CTCP time.
23:58:53 <Vorpal> ah...
23:59:02 <elliott___> * oerjan prods elliott___ with a stick
23:59:08 <elliott___> i am not really back
23:59:54 <oerjan> so you say