←2012-07-24 2012-07-25 2012-07-26→ ↑2012 ↑all
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00:09:02 <segorev> yo brothers
00:09:08 <segorev> is anybody here?
00:09:14 <segorev> alarm
00:10:25 <segorev> all sleep ?
00:10:43 <segorev> i think what only in russian night now
00:10:48 <segorev> *russia
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00:11:26 <segorev> david_werecat, hi
00:11:40 <segorev> david_werecat, you hacker?
00:11:56 <david_werecat> Hello, and not really.
00:12:27 <segorev> hm.. it bad
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00:53:33 <Phantom_Hoover> omg russian Sgeo!!!!!!!
00:55:11 <Gregor> He could use some more patience…
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01:27:33 <quintopia> if he's a doctor, he could use some patients?
01:27:45 <quintopia> blah blah pay shuns
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02:30:10 <elliott> hi, monqy
02:30:26 <Phantom_Hoover> russian monqy?
02:31:04 <elliott> what's russian monqy
02:32:29 <Phantom_Hoover> обезьяна with some phonetic changes?
02:32:55 <shachaf> > cycle "monqy inside another "
02:32:56 <lambdabot> "monqy inside another monqy inside another monqy inside another monqy insid...
02:34:00 <monqy> @messages?
02:34:00 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 20 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
02:34:33 <shachaf> in soviet russia, monqy massages you
02:34:44 <elliott> an in soviet russia joke
02:34:45 <elliott> very funny shachaf
02:34:49 <elliott> where do you possibly get the material
02:34:50 <elliott> how can i learn
02:35:11 <shachaf> elliott: it's very complicated
02:35:48 <shachaf> you must be at least 23 dyalmunkts tall to make soviet russia jokes
02:36:12 <shachaf> 23 dyalmunkts = 1 year
02:38:06 <Gregor> Oh man, I could not stop laughing when I wrote “vive le plarimasthugl”, and there it is again X-D
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02:44:18 <olsner> Gregor: what does it mean?
02:44:37 <Gregor> olsner: It was a word that `words thought looked French.
02:48:22 <olsner> it seems to have a plarimasthugl idea of french
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03:19:02 <Gregor> http://codu.org/fiction/LensCap.html I wrote a short story.
03:19:33 <olsner> it does not mention plarimasthugl
03:19:42 <Gregor> Tragically, no.
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03:44:12 <quintopia> Gregor: it reminds me of this: http://www.scp-wiki.net/scp-1074
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03:51:28 <Gregor> >_>
03:51:30 <Gregor> <_<
03:51:32 <Gregor> Ohhhhhhh kay.
03:56:54 <Sgeo__> Phantom_Hoover.... dangit
03:57:01 <Sgeo__> I want to ask him when Red Dwarf starts to suck
03:58:15 <pikhq_> You'll know.
04:07:08 <Gregor> pikhq_: http://codu.org/fiction/LensCap.html I wrote a short story.
04:08:03 <pikhq_> Gregor: K. But first, ponies.
04:08:21 <Gregor> OK, good, you've got your priorities straight.
04:08:43 * pikhq_ is IRCing while watching, so.
04:12:33 <Gregor> pikhq_: Also, don't forget to put Ponies in your Interwebs ( http://websplat.bitbucket.org/ )
04:12:48 <Sgeo__> Where'd the extra Kryten head come from?
04:23:35 <pikhq_> *cough*
04:23:44 <Sgeo__> ?
04:23:44 <pikhq_> By your powers combined I am Captain Planet. Again.
04:24:58 <Sgeo__> Are you trying to tell me something?
04:25:05 <pikhq_> Nah, more Gregor
04:25:20 <shachaf> Hey, #esoteric!
04:25:29 <Gregor> pikhq_: Why, are you up to the Season 2 opening or something?
04:25:33 <pikhq_> Gregor: Yes.
04:25:38 <Gregor> Heh
04:25:39 <shachaf> Can you make a language that can evaluate algorithms as decribed in this? http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=5060147.PN.&OS=PN/5060147&RS=PN/5060147
04:25:39 <pikhq_> Gregor: Specifically, just finished.
04:27:49 <Gregor> pikhq_: Just wait for the S2 finale ;)
04:31:57 <Sgeo__> o.O I know a girl with a name in that story
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04:37:14 <Gregor> Sgeo__: ?
04:37:39 <Sgeo__> Gregor, .
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04:54:25 <quintopia> does websplat ponies now?
04:54:46 <Gregor> Yup.
04:54:56 <quintopia> hrray!
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04:58:19 <quintopia> how come dead with two hearts left?
04:58:45 <Gregor> If you fall off the bottom of the screen, you die automatically.
04:58:49 <Gregor> Otherwise, shouldn't happen.
05:00:07 <quintopia> who did graphix?
05:00:21 <Gregor> I stole them from Adventure Ponies, so Hasbro.
05:00:47 <quintopia> what does applejack's tree accomplish
05:00:56 <Gregor> You can climb it.
05:01:52 <quintopia> pinkie appears to be overpowered
05:02:37 <Gregor> They're not intended to be balanced, it's one-player.
05:03:11 <quintopia> but you should get more points for winning with the weaker ponies
05:03:25 <quintopia> also, ponyswitcher button to change at any time
05:03:28 <quintopia> and reset button
05:03:59 <Gregor> Reset is nigh-on impossible, though for stupid reasons. Ponyswitching just isn't built into the system.
05:04:51 <Gregor> Also, the points don't matter ;)
05:05:16 <Gregor> Anyway, I now intend to make a ponified web based version of Worms, which will be multiplayer and balanced. Need time and graphical assets.
05:05:21 <quintopia> never mind the ponies game
05:05:28 <quintopia> make a web page version of Worms
05:05:33 <quintopia> yes
05:05:57 <Gregor> Well, it has to not JUST be Worms.
05:06:04 <quintopia> i think yo me and wryen are thinking identically
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05:06:15 <quintopia> i wrote that message before seeingyour message about Worms
05:06:25 <quintopia> afterwryen said antigravity pony was like worms
05:07:04 <Gregor> Is wryen… a person?
05:07:11 <quintopia> yes
05:07:21 <Gregor> Ah.
05:07:23 <quintopia> currently playing websplat with asscannon pony
05:07:48 <zzo38> I once played a color GameBoy game which is like breakout, but has both horizontal and vertical paddles, and color graphics, sound effects, all in only 1K ROM. The instructions say it even has a hidden movie.
05:08:02 <quintopia> never mind antigrav pony
05:08:09 <quintopia> asscannon pony is the most powerful
05:08:15 <Gregor> Ohhhhhhh kay, so I'm goin' to sleep, but yeah, Worms at some point X-D
05:08:42 <quintopia> where's the reddit thread for this
05:09:10 <zzo38> The smallest (and only) GameBoy game I made is 3K, but it is monochrome and has no sound effects, and has 256 levels in total so most of the ROM space is taken up by the level data.
05:09:21 <Gregor> quintopia: http://www.reddit.com/r/mylittlepony/comments/wrz8a/ponies_in_your_interwebs_ponies_on_any_web_page/
05:09:26 <zzo38> (It is a clone of StroQ but not ll the same levels)
05:15:55 <Sgeo__> pikhq, I have to know if this is a permanent cast change
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05:17:32 <pikhq> Sgeo__: ?
05:17:53 <Sgeo__> In season 7
05:18:02 <Sgeo__> Maybe I should just watch the next episode
05:19:28 <pikhq> I think you're *past* where it sucks
05:20:13 <zzo38> How would you do if you are the President of United States? (even if you do not live in United States)
05:20:48 <zzo38> First thing I would do is try to figure out why this happen, especially since I am Canadian.
05:20:56 <pikhq> zzo38: Poorly. I have no tolerance for bullshit.
05:26:13 <Sgeo__> What happened to the laugh track?
05:32:29 <zzo38> Do you think the Gregorian calendar is difficult to learn, has no sync with the moon, days of week do not stay in sync with days of the month, and does not accurately track the equinoxes and solstices? I think at least the last three is correct, although the third (about days of week) I think is not important and is perhaps better the way it is anyways.
05:43:11 <pikhq> Personally, I feel we should change the Earth's orbit so we can have decimal time.
05:44:19 <zzo38> I say we shouldn't mix up the solar system like that.
05:44:42 <pikhq> Oh, if we're going to mix up the *solar system* I have a much better idea.
05:44:55 <pikhq> Well, I guess it's Freeman Dyson's idea.
05:45:23 <zzo38> This is what I would do if being President of United States: ...
05:45:38 <zzo38> First I would wonder what happened and how I got there especially since I am Canadian. I would probably just make my own breakfast. I would ensure my own personal money is kept separate from the government's money. I would try to abolish the DMCA and overturn some court cases. I would try to abolish the patent office. ...
05:45:46 <zzo38> I would try to make more so the government is not so secret from others. I would try to make it illegal to bribe the government. I would ask people to vote whether they want me as President of the United States, and what policies they want, so that we can have proper democracy.
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05:47:37 <zzo38> pikhq: Freeman Dyson's idea to do what, specifically?
05:48:53 <pikhq> zzo38: Dyson sphere.
05:49:49 <zzo38> OK, I looked it up on Wikipedia.
06:04:49 <Sgeo__> pikhq, why would you need to change the orbit to have decimal time?
06:05:05 <pikhq> Sgeo__: So you could have a round number of days in a solar year!
06:05:07 <Sgeo__> I was thinking maybe so you'd have some units equal in old and new time, but I don't quite see how it would work
06:05:07 <Sgeo__> Oh
06:05:30 <Sgeo__> I thought you meant as in unit x is 10 unit y etc
06:05:45 <Sgeo__> Oh, yeah, non-integer days in a year would still break that
06:07:35 <zzo38> I do not think it is much of a problem. You can still use units such as dekaseconds and kiloseconds and so on if you like to do so. To track moon, solstices, and equinoxes, you can use a horoscope (you can also view the moon with a telescope, although you would use an ephemeris if you wanted to calculate ahead of time).
06:07:41 <zzo38> But you still shouldn't mix up the solar system.
06:08:14 <zzo38> And at least we do now have Gregorian calendar instead of the older Julian calendar; John Dee also wanted to have the Gregorian calendar despite hating the Pope.
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06:12:53 <zzo38> You can also use UNIX timestamps or Julian day numbers.
06:14:31 <zzo38> Or use Planck times......
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06:49:35 <shachaf> kmc: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/oldnewthing/archive/2004/12/15/313250.aspx
06:49:48 <shachaf> @localtime kmc
06:49:49 <lambdabot> Local time for kmc is Wed Jul 25 02:50:37 2012
06:49:51 <shachaf> Oh, I guess that's wrong.
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07:33:46 <mroman> @localtime mroman
07:33:49 <lambdabot> Local time for mroman is Wed Jul 25 09:33:46 2012
07:34:27 <mroman> @localtime lambdabot
07:34:28 <lambdabot> I live on the internet, do you expect me to have a local time?
07:34:33 <mroman> Yes!
07:39:16 <fizzie> lambdabot: Your local time should obviously be that Swatch Internet Time.
07:39:20 <fizzie> The "beat time".
07:40:15 <fizzie> It's now @361 .beats, I believe.
07:41:03 <fizzie> It's Internet because it's got @s and .s in it.
07:43:55 <shachaf> If I have (in C++) a templated function which turns into the exact same code for two different instantiations, should I expect g++ to combine the generated code for them?
07:45:34 <fizzie> I wouldn't expect that, but I guess miracles can always happen.
07:47:05 <pikhq> shachaf: gcc doesn't even merge identical jump tables.
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07:48:01 <AnotherTest> Hello
07:48:01 <lambdabot> AnotherTest: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
07:48:34 <shachaf> Microsoft's compiler apparently does it. :-(
07:49:09 <fizzie> Spam quote of the day: "You must be very discrete in the area of confidentiality".
07:49:12 <AnotherTest> mroman: I'll put it online somewhere later today ;)
07:49:30 <AnotherTest> (github probably)
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07:57:38 <oerjan> yeah continuous confidentiality just won't do
07:58:32 <ion> The Ministry of Silly Walks approves. http://gizmodo.com/5928737/this-must-be-the-stupidest-way-to-fire-one-of-the-worlds-deadliest-cannons
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08:07:10 <mroman> AnotherTest: http://eso.mroman.ch/cgi/burlesque.cgi?q={qu+in+e.}
08:07:16 <mroman> Now with fancy highlighting :)
08:10:15 <AnotherTest> :)
08:10:26 <mroman> http://eso.mroman.ch/cgi/burlesque.cgi?q={%27c+5.6+7+%22HELLO%22}
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08:19:58 <Taneb> Hello
08:30:57 <Taneb> :k Const
08:30:58 <lambdabot> * -> * -> *
08:31:03 <Taneb> :k (:<)
08:31:04 <lambdabot> Not in scope: type constructor or class `:<'
08:31:09 <Taneb> :k Cofree
08:31:10 <lambdabot> Not in scope: type constructor or class `Cofree'
08:31:14 <Taneb> :<
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08:55:08 <itidus21> :)
08:55:26 <itidus21> :D (:o)
08:55:33 <oerjan> :?
08:57:37 <Taneb> :t (:<)
08:57:38 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `:<'
08:57:42 <Taneb> @hayoo (:<)
08:57:42 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
08:58:01 <oerjan> @hoogle (:<)
08:58:01 <lambdabot> Data.Sequence (:<) :: a -> Seq a -> ViewL a
08:58:23 <Taneb> Not the :< I am looking for
08:58:50 <oerjan> that's what they all say
08:59:05 <Taneb> @hackage free
08:59:05 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/free
08:59:19 <Taneb> Control.Comonad.Free
08:59:22 <Taneb> *Cofree
08:59:34 <Taneb> I was wondering if lambdabot had it
09:02:25 <mroman> Heh.
09:02:44 <mroman> The cookbook is finished :)
09:02:49 <AnotherTest> yay!
09:02:51 <mroman> but not finnished this time.
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09:06:08 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/burlesque/cookbook/
09:06:35 <mroman> Warning: Content could be satiric.
09:07:18 <mroman> or whatever the right englisch word for that is.
09:07:28 <Deewiant> mroman: Typo: "stock" instead of "stack"
09:07:59 <mroman> Oops :D. Thanks.
09:09:56 <AnotherTest> mroman: typo "list of value" should probably be "list of values" (in Understanding Blocks)
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09:10:08 <elliott> fizzie: is "Mikee" a finnish first name
09:10:11 <elliott> oklopol: you may also answer
09:10:42 <Deewiant> elliott: Not as far as I know.
09:10:52 <elliott> thank you
09:10:55 <elliott> however i did not solicit your response
09:10:58 <Taneb> Deewiant, you are neither fizzie nor oklopol!
09:11:13 <elliott> however i will accept it anyway
09:11:19 <Deewiant> I was just making a comment, it was not intended as a replacement for fizzie/oklopol
09:11:43 <elliott> Deewiant: the alleged Mikee points me to http://www.nordicnames.de/wiki/Mikee
09:12:03 <Deewiant> The statistics are descriptive
09:12:06 <Deewiant> And I must go now
09:12:08 <Deewiant> -->
09:12:48 <elliott> Deewiant: he claims it is short for mikael
09:13:14 <mroman> there is also a type in "compares pops". Fixed that.
09:13:38 <mroman> *typo
09:13:44 <mroman> I make typos in spelling typo :(
09:13:57 <mroman> The typo in the typo would make a great movie title.
09:14:53 <AnotherTest> mroman: what other features do you plan on adding?
09:17:52 <mroman> More builtins
09:17:57 <mroman> especially string manipulation
09:18:01 <mroman> and golfing stuff :)
09:18:28 <mroman> Then I'll try to get my language accepted for golf.shinh.org :)
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09:21:04 <mroman> I'm not planning on adding actual features
09:21:20 <mroman> That's the mistake I did with Stlang.
09:21:31 <mroman> It has useless features like OOP and stuff ;)
09:21:42 <mroman> well, useless. Depends of course.
09:21:53 <mroman> But it made the language bloat :)
09:22:35 <mroman> Some colleagues of me dared me to add OOP in stlang :D
09:25:20 <mroman> http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/66953/golfscript-in-codegolf-on-so-cheating-or-not :D:D:D
09:25:32 <mroman> "I think, that Golfscript is unuseful, and it's not a language at all."
09:25:43 <mroman> "It's a kind of Ruby library (proof - http://www.golfscript.com/golfscript/golfscript.rb),"
09:25:48 <mroman> OMG, HE proof!
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09:26:50 <fizzie> Oh no, I'm too late.
09:26:59 <mroman> Elliott hates me :(
09:27:08 <fizzie> Anyway, you can search for Finnish given-name statistics at http://verkkopalvelu.vrk.fi/Nimipalvelu/default.asp?L=3
09:27:54 <fizzie> I haven't heard of anyone called Mikee, though there are very many Mikas and Mikaels.
09:28:42 <fizzie> Also some Miikas and Miikkas.
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09:29:39 <elliott> fizzie: I hear it was short for Mikael.
09:29:43 <elliott> Also I don't hate people.
09:29:46 <fizzie> I'm sure some Mikael could have a nickname "Mikee", even though it sounds pretty weird.
09:30:09 <fizzie> Nobody has it as an official name according to the gummint, though.
09:30:27 <kallisti> I think while I'm waiting to get my license renewed today, I'll finish up my new esolang interpreter.
09:30:31 <kallisti> and write up a spec.
09:30:32 <fizzie> "Mikke" is a name that exists, also.
09:30:43 <kallisti> or maybe read a book.
09:30:45 <kallisti> I don't know.
09:30:58 <fizzie> About 360s Mikkes listed in the Registry.
09:31:08 <fizzie> Or maybe it's the System.
09:31:13 <fizzie> The Population Information System.
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09:33:02 <kallisti> I may or may not have taken the concept of dupdog and modified it to the point that it's turing complete, without feeling really cheap.
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10:07:25 <itidus21> ya hahahahah
10:07:37 <Taneb> Hello
10:07:58 <itidus21> <-- possibly over excited about dupdog?
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10:23:53 <Taneb> Okay, expanding on what I have previously written
10:24:16 <Taneb> Many monads can be made using the base monad Foo a b c = Foo (a -> b)
10:24:27 <Taneb> Const a = Foo () a
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10:24:37 <Taneb> Empty = Foo () ()
10:24:43 <Taneb> (Foo needs a better name)
10:25:13 <Taneb> (Actually, it's stupid)
10:31:33 <Vorpal> Taneb, what is Foo?
10:31:47 <Taneb> newtype Foo a b c = Foo (a -> b)
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10:51:07 <itidus21> i think i like math a little bit. it's always pleasant to see how things can be more fully understood by trying to approach them more mathematically
10:54:58 <itidus21> eh..
10:55:17 <itidus21> but now i will say the part that will get people fuming
10:55:45 <itidus21> so i often wonder what is it which someone like gauss does so well exactly
10:56:34 <AnotherTest> his brains I think
10:56:46 <itidus21> i know it's not something you can acquire at a gym, and it's something which money will only slightly help until a threshhold
10:57:09 <mroman> Taneb: Isn't that the definition of Void?
10:57:27 <Taneb> the definition of Void is "data Void", I think
10:57:51 <mroman> Hm no @() ()
10:58:01 <itidus21> just for the sake of consistency, i mean that after some arbitrary figure such as $500,000 then any more money won't really aid in a persons education
10:58:04 <mroman> Taneb: And it's data Void = Void Void
10:58:08 <elliott> no it's not
10:58:15 <Taneb> That defeats the point of Void
10:58:18 <elliott> it's "newtype Void = Void Void"
10:58:18 <mroman> or Void !Void
10:58:25 <elliott> which is equivalent to "data Void" in haskell 2010
10:58:30 <elliott> but the latter is not possible in haskell 98
10:58:59 <Taneb> The point of Void is it has zero possible values.
10:59:01 <itidus21> and it's not simply a matter of having a powerful memory, or is it? exactly how far one can get on the strength of memory alone is unclear to me
10:59:09 <Taneb> Foo () () a has one possible value
10:59:12 <Taneb> Foo id
10:59:32 <itidus21> but i personally don't believe that memory, no matter how powerful can make you gauss
11:02:15 <AnotherTest> itidus21: maybe it's just genetics? However, I'm not sure whether his brains have a different physical structure.
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11:04:10 <fizzie> AnotherTest: Well, there's the fact that they work with positrons...
11:04:30 <AnotherTest> Yes, but is that the reason?
11:04:42 <fizzie> It's a different physical structure, at least.
11:04:48 <AnotherTest> ititdus21: I don't think the speed at which you can remember / calculate things is that important.
11:05:03 <fizzie> (At least according to the so-called "Positronic Gauss" theory.)
11:05:17 <AnotherTest> I think it's the speed at which you can connect to things with each other.
11:05:50 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving").
11:06:05 <AnotherTest> no idea why asimov decided that the brains would have to be Positronic too
11:06:40 <Taneb> Picnic time, bye
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11:06:58 <itidus21> uh, ask elliott
11:07:24 <fizzie> AnotherTest: I think officially because it sounded more sci-fi. (At least his intro to one of the short story collections said as much.)
11:08:54 <AnotherTest> mroman: # something (\d+) := $1 something
11:08:54 <AnotherTest> something 10
11:09:07 <AnotherTest> (that becomes 10 something)
11:09:28 <AnotherTest> (I'll make a git after I had lunch)
11:10:55 <itidus21> (now i'm getting really offensive) ok put another way what i am asking is, whether math is like a million monkeys typing, and occasionally one of them has reams of breakthroughs and things named after him/her
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11:12:42 <itidus21> that just doesn't make sense since it implies the monkey didn't merely get lucky like a lottery winner
11:13:15 <itidus21> but rather like all the lottery winners had eventually won the jackpot, say > 5 times in their life
11:14:09 <itidus21> like somehow they are defying any sort of odds
11:15:47 <itidus21> is it that the system can't handle too many such people?
11:18:15 <itidus21> or maybe there is a decreasing amount of things to discover, and an increasing number of people working to discover them
11:22:36 <itidus21> <AnotherTest> I think it's the speed at which you can connect to things with each other. -- is this related to art?
11:26:07 <itidus21> i think that constraining connections to those where a logical connection is clear can be a problem
11:27:18 <itidus21> but then i'm wacked out of my mind
11:27:20 <mroman> AnotherTest: Cool.
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12:03:37 <AnotherTest> itidus21: maybe. Although there are many forms of art (I think thinking can be an art, it doesn't have to be manual)
12:04:33 <AnotherTest> oh he left
12:08:26 <Sgeo__> Finished season 7
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12:16:40 <itidus21> hmm
12:18:11 <itidus21> so, if i have a repeating sequence say 56777..., what happens if i try to say 1234(56777...)(56777...)(56777...)...
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12:20:33 <itidus21> probably there is no simple answer to this that i would need to know
12:20:59 <Phantom_Hoover> oh dear
12:21:07 <itidus21> i guess it's a generalization of, 12333...4
12:21:39 <itidus21> which is missing the whole point of the ...
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12:33:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what happened?
12:33:41 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus21 started talking
12:33:45 <Vorpal> oh right
12:33:59 <Phantom_Hoover> fortunately he stopped
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13:13:59 <elliott> fizzie: Deewiant: Hey, what's a simple way to set up an FD (from a BSD socket later but a file now) with non-blocking reads?
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13:17:56 <fizzie> long flags = fcntl(fd, F_GETFL); fcntl(fd, F_SETFL, flags | O_NONBLOCK); or some-such, maybe.
13:18:38 <elliott> fizzie: :/
13:18:41 <elliott> fizzie: What about on, uh, Windows?
13:18:53 <elliott> (Isn't there a way to open a file in non-blocking mode?)
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13:19:22 <AnotherTest> mroman: https://github.com/AnotherTest/HELP
13:19:29 <fizzie> Yeah, that was the "turn it on post-creation" approach. You can | O_NONBLOCK to the second argument of open(2), too.
13:19:45 <fizzie> I'm not so sure about Windows, though.
13:20:00 <elliott> fizzie: Thanks.
13:20:09 <elliott> I'll wait for Deewiant for Windows since didn't he do mcmap's Windows socket stuff?
13:20:14 <AnotherTest> mroman: link with libboost_regex and -std=c++11
13:23:21 <fizzie> elliott: unsigned long yes = 1; ioctlsocket(s, FIONBIO, &yes); is what you'd have done in some winsock versions, but that place is a bit of a mess. (I don't think sockets and files are quite so interchangeable in Windows.)
13:24:37 <elliott> Anyway, OK, this should be, uh.
13:24:40 <elliott> Easy? I... guess.
13:25:01 <fizzie> (According to infallible SO, before POSIX standardized fcntl O_NONBLOCK, there used to be ioctl FIONBIO and fcntl O_NDELAY to do the same thing, with all kinds of amusing incompatibilities and discrepancies between them.
13:25:03 <elliott> fizzie: (And is there a way to figure out "reading from this file wouldn't block" without actually reading from it?)
13:25:44 <fizzie> You can of course poll/select it, if you mean the "figure out for the very next read call" way.
13:25:49 <fizzie> There's a select for sockets in winsock.
13:26:12 <fizzie> And of course Windows-API ways to do it too, presumably.
13:26:25 <elliott> fizzie: Ugh, well. I guess poll/select would work.
13:26:29 <elliott> So heavyweight for a simple check though.
13:26:54 <elliott> If only there was a poll1 or such.
13:28:45 <olsner> there's an fcntl to ask for the number of bytes readable
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13:28:58 <olsner> or maybe it was an ioctl
13:29:39 <elliott> That sounds more awful. :(
13:29:47 <fizzie> "Socket APIs will return WSA errnos, rather than the standard ones (e.g. WSAEWOULDBLOCK, although Windows also has EWOULDBLOCK). Except when they don't. Refer to MSDN." Lovable.
13:31:51 <olsner> they would've been better off not even trying to emulate those unix apis
13:32:31 <fizzie> Currently it just makes people go all "they're *so* close I think if I squeeze a bit I can just use the same code".
13:32:48 <elliott> fizzie: Can you fix this codebase?
13:32:51 <elliott> It uses event polling and oh.
13:33:35 <fizzie> olsner: I wouldn't count on FIONREAD to (a) work on Windows' socket-ioctl-alike or (b) work on all kinds of fds in general, anyway.
13:34:26 <fizzie> Huh, what do I know: ioctlsocket in fact does do FIONREAD.
13:35:13 <fizzie> (Might still be better with a select.)
13:35:55 <elliott> I guess I can just use read directly into a global buffer. Ugh. Ugh. UGH.
13:37:31 <fizzie> Guh, it's SO HOT.
13:38:03 <fizzie> Us nordics should say out of these kinds of southern desert countries such as e.g. Belgium.
13:38:10 <fizzie> It's like 28 Celsoids.
13:38:55 <elliott> It's about degrees here.
13:38:56 <Phantom_Hoover> WTF are you talking about, the average summer high in Helsinki is like 22 degrees.
13:39:09 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, and this is like six more.
13:39:12 <Phantom_Hoover> HOW DO YOU LIVE
13:39:27 <Gregor> fizzie: The high today in this town is 37C.
13:39:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, are you a magma being
13:40:14 <fizzie> (Actually for the previous three weeks it's been around 12-18 degrees and mostly rainy here, it's just this particular week; and to be honest, there's often a single hot week in a Finnish summer too.)
13:41:03 <fizzie> Two-digit temperatures that start with 3 (let alone 4) are scary.
13:41:07 <Phantom_Hoover> do you all sit in your saunas eagerly awaiting the Hot Week
13:41:22 <fizzie> I think we just sit around complaining.
13:41:32 <fizzie> "Oh, it's been such a miserable summer."
13:41:36 <olsner> Two-digit temperatures that start with 3!? Isn't that like above the melting point of humans?
13:41:37 <Phantom_Hoover> are you sure you aren't british
13:41:49 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, but not magma beings.
13:42:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Their melting point is well into the high 50s.
13:42:10 <olsner> south europeans are magma beings
13:42:36 <Vorpal> hm, does anyone know a tool to find differences between sets of files? With that I mean if I have two sets of files (A and B) each containing several files with some differences I want to find the set of differences such that the difference is not a difference of the files within set A or B but only between them
13:42:51 <Vorpal> oh and the files are binary files, so standard diff and such are pretty useless
13:43:08 <fizzie> It is currently +49 degrees Celsius in Kut, Irak.
13:43:40 <fizzie> The (Finnish) weather site I use has this handy "hot and cold spots around the world" info-box.
13:43:43 <Vorpal> it is like +27 C here, it is terrible
13:43:52 <fizzie> So you can be all "I'm glad I'm not there".
13:45:16 <Vorpal> anyway, does anyone know a good way to do that sort of comparison?
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13:46:21 <olsner> Vorpal: I'm not sure what the question is, but maybe you want to e.g. take the md5sum of each file and compare the sets of sums of the sets of files
13:46:50 <olsner> err, I mean "I'm not sure what the question is, but maybe you want to e.g. google it"
13:47:01 <fizzie> I'm not entirely sure what you wanted either. All differences between A1-B1, A1-B2, A1-B3, ..., A1-Bm, A2-B1, A2-B2, ..., An-B1, ..., An-Bm where |A|=n and |B|=m?
13:47:24 <Phantom_Hoover> It's 19 here, and it's a warm day.
13:47:46 <AnotherTest> fizzie: that's actually extraordinary; we normally have much lower tempratures
13:48:09 <fizzie> AnotherTest: So I've heard. It's so extraordinary some of the people here are going camping.
13:48:34 <AnotherTest> global warming!
13:48:41 <olsner> Vorpal: if what you want is to know how similar the aarch64 (arm64) code is to the arm code in the linux kernel, that comparison has already been done
13:49:14 <fizzie> 10-day gue.. uh, I mean, predictions suggest that Friday's the last warm day.
13:49:23 <fizzie> Coincidentally, that's when we're going home.
13:50:28 <Phantom_Hoover> AnotherTest, hardly the globe.
13:50:49 <AnotherTest> I'm leaving for vacation Friday :)
13:51:04 <AnotherTest> Phantom_Hoover: true
13:51:07 <olsner> I dreamt about having a discussion where someone claimed the days of the week were sunday, monday, ..., sunday
13:51:29 <olsner> i.e. 8 day weeks with two days having the same name
13:52:03 <fizzie> Sunday_1 and Sunday_2.
13:52:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Sunday and Sunday'.
13:52:56 <fizzie> It sounds quite confusing, especially since the Sunday of one week is right adjacent to a Sunday' of another.
13:53:17 <olsner> it's possible that they meant that each sunday is in two weeks at the same time
13:53:35 <olsner> or more likely, they were idiots
13:54:03 <AnotherTest> So would, after a year, Sunday be Sunday'?
13:54:06 <itidus21> olsner: perhaps you are tired of having days and months named after celestial beings and gods who don't seem to get discussed often lately
13:54:07 <Phantom_Hoover> No, they were Romans.
13:54:24 <AnotherTest> s/Sunday be Sunday'/Sunday' be Sunday/
13:54:45 <Phantom_Hoover> (Romans had 8-day weeks but counted inclusively so they said the weekly market was every ninth day.
13:54:46 <Phantom_Hoover> *)
13:55:08 <olsner> the song "sunday bloody sunday" is in fact about a mixup over the two sundays
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13:57:15 <fizzie> While "Sundae, bloody sundae" is the lamentation of a dessertmaker.
13:57:28 <fizzie> Or possibly a mishap with a blender.
13:57:30 <fizzie> Either-or.
13:57:38 <olsner> well, both
13:57:47 <olsner> the dessertmaker's mishap with the blender
13:58:28 <fizzie> Is that the suicide song? No, that's Gloomy Sunday.
14:00:21 <olsner> the chorus of sunday bloody sunday is funny in swedish
14:00:50 <olsner> it sounds like they're singing "little negros in the sand" in a southern-swedish accent
14:03:56 <fizzie> Hey, it's also the cold stone day today.
14:04:20 <olsner> a ceremonial freezing of magma people?
14:05:50 <fizzie> A Finnish folklore that today Jaakko casts a cold stone to the sea (and/or your local lake), causing it to cool down, signifying that summer's about to start ending, and the swimming season's going to be over.
14:05:58 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover, olsner: Y'know, although 37C is a typical high in the summer, -23C is a typical low in the winter.
14:06:19 <fizzie> Thanks to calendarical confusion, the day's a bit earlier than it should.
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14:06:31 <Gregor> Muahahahaha
14:06:33 <Gregor> `welcome hughfdjackson
14:06:34 <fizzie> Gregor: Must be inconvenient for you magma beings.
14:06:38 <HackEgo> hughfdjackson: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
14:06:46 <Gregor> fizzie: It really is!
14:06:54 <hughfdjackson> :D cheers
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14:18:24 <kallisti> is there any evidence that the universe isn't a closed system?
14:18:43 <kallisti> i.e. heat death might not occur.
14:21:24 <Phantom_Hoover> <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover, olsner: Y'know, although 37C is a typical high in the summer, -23C is a typical low in the winter.
14:21:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, that's just wierd.
14:21:37 <Phantom_Hoover> *weird
14:21:44 <itidus21> magmar will rise again...
14:22:12 <itidus21> ^ /s/magmar will rise again.../magmar magmar/
14:22:59 <olsner> the itch king of magmar
14:24:23 <itidus21> :3 "According to IGN, its English name is derived from the word "magma"."
14:24:57 <itidus21> who the hell wrote that
14:25:08 <itidus21> i have to see what other edits they made
14:25:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Don't bother, it always turns out to be some IP.
14:28:52 <itidus21> User:New Age Retro Hippie
14:29:21 <itidus21> i just think it's funny... it's probably not contrary to fact
14:29:55 <itidus21> lol... goals.. 1. Create articles for every character in Punch-Out!! for Wii.
14:30:57 <itidus21> Thanks for all the work you did in making Rugrats: Search for Reptar a certified "Good Article"! Your work is much appreciated.
14:31:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Impressive.
14:34:09 <fizzie> Is "repmat" a thing in some thing?
14:34:18 <fizzie> (It's a Matlab function, but I mean otherwise.)
15:00:20 <tswett> Sgeo_: hey, how do you feel about forming a sort of Agoran partnership?
15:00:48 <tswett> I'll say "Machiavelli agrees that from now until further notice, all messages published by Sgeo are also published by Machiavelli", and then you'll say something similar.
15:01:52 <elliott> "if i am sgeo, i transfer all my possessions to tswett then deregister"
15:02:16 <tswett> I'd state that as "Sgeo transfers all his possessions to Machiavelli and then deregisters."
15:02:46 <tswett> Naturally, it doesn't work unless we trust each other not to be dicks.
15:06:09 <Gregor> I know I trust anyone with a good, solid name like Machiavelli to not be a dick.
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16:41:00 <Vorpal> <olsner> Vorpal: I'm not sure what the question is, but maybe you want to e.g. take the md5sum of each file and compare the sets of sums of the sets of files <-- I want to find specific offsets in the files for the differences
16:41:11 <Vorpal> <olsner> Vorpal: if what you want is to know how similar the aarch64 (arm64) code is to the arm code in the linux kernel, that comparison has already been done <-- nope
16:41:41 <Vorpal> olsner, basically I want to reverse engineer which byte in a binary file contains a specific flag
16:41:48 -!- itidus21 has changed nick to honest_niccolo.
16:41:53 <Vorpal> there are however always going to be other differences between the different files
16:41:59 <Vorpal> thus I need to filter those out
16:42:05 <Vorpal> and just find the one I'm interested in
16:42:59 <Vorpal> thus I would have two sets of files, one set with the flag set, and one set with it unset. There would in all cases be a number of other differences between the files. So I want to find the byte that differs /between/ the sets but not /inside/ each set
16:43:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, ^
16:43:16 <zzo38> How can you find out such a flag?
16:43:30 <zzo38> What kind of flag is this anyways?
16:43:32 <Vorpal> (sorry for going afk, got an important call and have to leave immediately)
16:43:56 <honest_niccolo> maybe i am ...ST_NIC...
16:43:56 <Vorpal> <zzo38> How can you find out such a flag? <-- that is what I'm asking
16:43:58 <fizzie> Vorpal: Do you mean all the files are of the same size or what?
16:44:04 <elliott> honest_niccolo: me 2
16:44:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh yes indeed they are
16:44:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, the file is basically a huge struct as far as I can tell
16:44:23 <Vorpal> <zzo38> What kind of flag is this anyways? <-- boolean
16:44:52 <zzo38> I mean, what is it measuring?
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16:45:13 <Vorpal> zzo38, if a specific feature is enabled or not.
16:45:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, you know, what I want to do is kind of similar to those "find cheat" features in zsnes and so on, except on binary files
16:45:59 <Vorpal> I mean, the same sort of algorithm would work
16:46:55 -!- good_guy_machiav has changed nick to itidus21.
16:46:59 <fizzie> Well, it would at least be an approximation, if you fed to the algorithm always one file from set A and then set B alternatingly.
16:47:30 <zzo38> Yes those kind of cheat finder is one idea
16:47:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm? Do all the files in set a and select "same value", Do the same for set b. Then look for "differs" between those sets
16:47:58 <AnotherTest> mroman: # while\s+(.*)do(.*)od := {\2} {\1} w!
16:47:58 <AnotherTest> # \n :=
16:47:58 <AnotherTest> # \s{2,} :=
16:47:58 <AnotherTest> 50
16:47:58 <AnotherTest> while 5 .> do
16:47:58 <AnotherTest> ^^
16:47:58 <AnotherTest> 1 .-
16:47:59 <AnotherTest> od
16:48:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway it is fairly easy to write the software to do this, I just wondered if anything existed already
16:48:33 <Vorpal> (I would probably write it in erlang btw)
16:51:01 <Vorpal> at least it would make it dead trivial to adapt the algorithm if it turned out to be part of a bitfield
16:52:43 <fizzie> Doing all files in set X with "same value" will only find you the offsets that are "fixed" throughout set X. It doesn't really sound like comparing those lists directly will help all that much. You want to find the masks of fixed bytes, take the & of them, and then considering only bytes in that find the ones in which there is a difference for each pair (a,b) with a in A, b in B.
16:53:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, well I expect the byte I'm looking for to be fixed in each set.
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16:53:46 <fizzie> Sure, but you also want to consider only bytes that always differ when you look across-set.
16:54:01 <fizzie> Of course I don't know what your files are like.
16:54:44 <Vorpal> binary blobs
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16:54:58 <fizzie> I mean, whether just finding the fixed bytes is enough.
16:55:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway I'm surprised this sort of software doesn't exist. It would seem like the ideal way to find stuff like which byte contains the flag for "this phone has a locked SIM". Which is kind of similar to what I'm trying to find.
16:55:34 <fizzie> But if files of set A contain A000000 and A000111, and set B has B000000 and B000111, finding the fixed bytes of both sets would give you a mask like 1111000 while you really only want 1000000.
16:55:48 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to scampumpkin.
16:56:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, err why are you not comparing the values when comparing between the sets?
16:56:48 <Vorpal> you need to use "differs" for the between-set comparsion
16:56:55 <Vorpal> comparison*
16:59:12 <Vorpal> you just use two equally long binary strings in memory for each set. One is the data of the first file, the other is the mask. For each file in the same set you compare and update the mask. Then when you compare between sets you compare again but this time you instead looks for where they differ rather than for where they are the same
16:59:39 <fizzie> Yes, that is what I would do.
16:59:46 <fizzie> I just didn't really catch your "differs" thing.
17:00:17 <Vorpal> the most elegant way would be to consider each new file a new set, and then simply offer two merging operations between set: "mask-same" and "mask-different"
17:02:28 <Vorpal> if we do this bitwise, then updating the mask is very easy. If we assign 0 to mean masked out (thus the mask starts out at all 1) then the new mask becomes (for "must be the same" case): newmask = m1 & m2 & ~(d1 ^ d2), no?
17:02:40 <Vorpal> where m is mask, and d is data
17:03:06 <Vorpal> and you would remove the bitwise not for the "must be different" case obviously
17:03:23 <Vorpal> I love bitwise operations
17:03:33 <fizzie> I don't know what m1 and m2 are.
17:03:44 <Vorpal> mask from old set 1 and mask from old set 2
17:03:49 <Vorpal> same for d = data
17:04:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, since there is no point is not generalising both operations to not work between sets
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17:05:34 <fizzie> Well, okay, but you can't sensibly define the "new data" for the "must be different" case.
17:05:55 <Vorpal> well okay
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17:06:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, actually the data is then meaningless since we know that that bit is either 0 or 1.
17:06:53 <Vorpal> you could add a third mask to represent this I guess
17:07:23 <Vorpal> don't see the point for my usage
17:14:13 * coppro grumbles about having to use e2fsck -c -c
17:15:09 <Vorpal> coppro, -c -c?
17:15:52 <coppro> Vorpal: rtfm
17:16:24 <Vorpal> coppro, my manual only says what happens if you use it once
17:16:36 <Vorpal> coppro, so that doesn't help at all
17:16:46 <coppro> Vorpal: do a non-destructive read-write test
17:16:52 <Vorpal> ah
17:17:02 <coppro> to find stealth bad block
17:17:04 <coppro> *blocks
17:17:34 <fizzie> Vorpal: Your man page really doesn't have the "If this option is specified twice, then the bad block scan will be done using a non-destructive read-write test." bit?
17:18:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, nope
17:18:29 <fizzie> That's a pretty crummy man page.
17:18:31 <coppro> ^
17:19:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, it actually seems they cut out a bit because that section ends with "If this option is specified"
17:19:07 <Vorpal> guess it is a bug fixed in newer versions
17:19:16 <Vorpal> this laptop is running a pretty old distro
17:19:33 <fizzie> That was from Ubuntu 10.10.
17:19:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, that is very new
17:19:41 <fizzie> The "perfect ten", I think it was called.
17:19:46 <fizzie> It's not very new.
17:19:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, I have 10.04
17:19:59 <fizzie> Yeah, it's just six months newer.
17:20:46 <fizzie> (I don't really know why they didn't stick with the LTS, but then also didn't keep updating things.)
17:21:03 <fizzie> (Though they do have a 12.04 installation rolling out, I believe.)
17:21:25 <Vorpal> who are they
17:21:43 <coppro> fizzie's evil overlord
17:21:48 <fizzie> People at regular-work.
17:22:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, Finland then?
17:22:17 <fizzie> Yeah.
17:22:27 <fizzie> Let's see what they have at temporary-work.
17:22:40 <fizzie> Except I don't remember what the workstation was called.
17:23:09 <fizzie> CentOS 6.3, apparently.
17:23:40 <fizzie> That's very new, in fact the newest, apparently.
17:23:55 <Vorpal> what is it with youtube and not the "buffered up until this point" marker not matching how far it actually buffered
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17:24:40 <fizzie> I wonder what it is with YouTube and the frame-thumbnail-for-the-seekbar that randomly seems to sometimes be there, sometimes not.
17:24:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Videos are like WiFi.
17:24:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, I think it is there for older videos
17:25:03 <Vorpal> I guess they don't generate that straight away
17:25:10 <Phantom_Hoover> They defy all mortal comprehension when examined too closely, despite being apparently simple.
17:25:21 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, wifi is in no way simple
17:25:31 <fizzie> Maybe they generate them only when sufficiently many people have bothered to seek the video in question.
17:25:41 <Vorpal> not even apparently
17:26:04 <Vorpal> also this video sometimes just breaks, stops loading
17:26:11 <soundnfury> You want "defies mortal comprehension"? Try getting CPU frequency scaling to behave
17:26:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, well it certainly isn't obvious that your connection's stability is going to be incredibly variable for no apparent reason.
17:26:34 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well, that follows from the SNR
17:26:49 * soundnfury has just spent about an hour on it, and "cpufreq-info" still doesn't work
17:27:50 <soundnfury> and I still don't know whether the bug's in the kernel, the module, the bios, or whether I just have a shit and borken CPU
17:27:52 <Vorpal> soundnfury, what CPU?
17:27:57 <Vorpal> what system in general
17:28:25 <soundnfury> Vorpal: Celeron. Linux (3.2.0-3-686-pae). MSI CR500X laptop
17:28:32 <Vorpal> hm
17:28:39 <Vorpal> no idea about that, maybe it is too old
17:28:44 <Vorpal> does the CPU even support it?
17:28:59 <soundnfury> Celeron T3500
17:29:17 <soundnfury> Not sure, but there was a BIOS option to enable it
17:29:31 <fizzie> Sounds like acpi-cpufreq then.
17:29:34 <soundnfury> any idea which of the /proc/cpuinfo flags might indicate it
17:29:50 <soundnfury> fizzie: acpi-cpufreq wouldn't load (No such device). But, speedstep-lib did
17:30:18 <fizzie> Maybe it does the speedstep thing, then. Though module loading isn't really proof positive.
17:31:53 <soundnfury> tru dat
17:32:10 <soundnfury> but the BIOS option was (iirc) called speedstep too,
17:32:15 <soundnfury> so unless the BIOS is overly generic
17:32:44 <fizzie> http://www.notebookcheck.nl/Intel-Celeron-Dual-Core-T3500-Notebook-Processor.48260.0.html through Google Translate sounds somewhat negative. "The Celeron T3500 does not have support for Enhanced SpeedStep (and other technologies), the average power consumption is so, however, higher, lower battery life as a result."
17:33:09 <fizzie> Maybe they have a real English version too.
17:33:18 <fizzie> Geolocation seems to have given me a .nl thing.
17:33:59 <fizzie> Well, http://www.notebookcheck.net/Intel-Celeron-Dual-Core-T3500-Notebook-Processor.37117.0.html isn't any better English.
17:34:03 <fizzie> But that's what they claim.
17:34:18 <Vorpal> what about the intel data sheet page
17:34:24 <Vorpal> ark.intel.com or something iirc
17:34:27 <fizzie> That's http://ark.intel.com/products/42104
17:34:29 <fizzie> It's silent on it.
17:34:53 <Vorpal> soundnfury, looks like you may be out of luck
17:35:21 <soundnfury> yeah, just found out that "Enhanced SpeedStep" is cpuinfo flag "est", which isn't here
17:35:36 <soundnfury> ok, so in other words My Laptop Is Shite
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17:35:43 <soundnfury> but I already knew that
17:36:00 <Vorpal> soundnfury, well obviously.... Anything with a Celeron is super-old anyway
17:36:05 <Vorpal> and thus shit in modern terms
17:36:24 <soundnfury> It was cheap
17:36:33 <Vorpal> soundnfury, how long have you had it?
17:36:50 <soundnfury> umm, year and a half I think
17:36:56 <Vorpal> hm okay
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17:37:07 <Vorpal> bought it used then I guess
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17:37:26 <soundnfury> my previous laptop developed an intermittent fault due to (we think) a hairline crack on the mobo
17:37:36 <soundnfury> no, new from Novatech
17:37:46 <fizzie> Vorpal: Celeron T3500 launch date is listed as Q3'10, that's less than two years ago.
17:37:47 <Vorpal> Celeron new 1.5 years ago?
17:37:50 <Vorpal> wow
17:37:51 -!- azaq23 has joined.
17:37:57 <Vorpal> Celeron was still alive as a brand then
17:37:58 <Vorpal> wtf
17:38:15 <Vorpal> Celeron feels so 10 years ago
17:38:28 <fizzie> Vorpal: There are Sandy Bridge Celerons from 2012.
17:38:47 <Vorpal> I thought they killed the brand ages ago?
17:38:59 <fizzie> Celeron 797, release date January 2012.
17:39:11 <fizzie> http://ark.intel.com/products/63917
17:39:35 <Vorpal> huh
17:40:29 <fizzie> No Ivy Bridge Celerons (yet), though.
17:40:50 <Vorpal> right
17:41:01 <soundnfury> Celeron T3500 (what I have) release date September 2010 (says Wiki)
17:41:14 <soundnfury> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_Celeron_microprocessors
17:41:21 <fizzie> Yes.
17:41:41 <fizzie> I did quote the Intel spec-sheet launch date, up there.
17:42:35 <fizzie> Vorpal: Also Celeron G550 (a desktop thing) from June 2012, that's like last month.
17:43:38 <fizzie> Hey, whoa.
17:43:53 <Vorpal> heh
17:43:56 <fizzie> Win-tab does some kinda threedee alt-tab in Win 7.
17:44:01 <fizzie> The more you know, I guess.
17:44:06 <fizzie> I haven't really used this much.
17:44:06 <Vorpal> sec
17:44:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, doesn't for me
17:44:16 <Vorpal> are you using Areo?
17:44:20 <fizzie> Yes.
17:44:23 <fizzie> Aero.
17:44:26 <Vorpal> I use the classic looks
17:44:28 <Vorpal> so no Areo
17:44:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, what does it look like?
17:45:13 <fizzie> http://www.windows7taskforce.com/uploads/alt-win%20tab.jpg like that top thing.
17:45:20 <fizzie> (That's some kind of a combined thing.)
17:45:29 <fizzie> But the thing with the "sheets".
17:45:38 <Vorpal> I see
17:45:42 <Vorpal> pretty useless
17:46:00 <fizzie> Sure, I was just surprised. Thought I was alt-tabbing.
17:46:04 <Vorpal> heh
17:46:34 -!- sirdancealot7 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
17:48:46 <fizzie> (Also it's still Aero and not Areo.)
17:49:27 <Vorpal> whatever
17:50:37 -!- oerjan has joined.
17:51:36 <fizzie> Hello, orejan.
17:51:50 <oerjan> g'day fuzzie
17:52:01 <fizzie> I was hoping you'd correct the spelling.
17:52:08 <fizzie> Then I could've said "whatever".
17:52:31 <oerjan> sounds dangerous.
18:00:12 -!- Taneb has joined.
18:00:14 <Taneb> Hello!
18:11:54 <Taneb> It's quiet
18:16:18 <oerjan> too quiet
18:18:40 <soundnfury> All quiet on the esoteric front?
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18:20:02 <Taneb> Indeed
18:29:54 <Vorpal> what is it with google services today. I'm having massive issues with youtube, gmail and google reader. Timing out or giving me 500 internal server errors sometimes
18:32:43 <coppro> we hate yuou
18:33:03 <Vorpal> who/what is "yuou"?
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18:34:51 <mroman> hm.
18:35:00 <mroman> Kann a PDA reverse its stack?
18:35:20 <Gregor> No.
18:36:34 <Taneb> Public display of affection?
18:39:06 <fizzie> The "no takebacks" rule of public displays of affection.
18:39:43 <oerjan> mroman: if it could, then you could easily implement a tape
18:40:11 <oerjan> or queue
18:40:18 <mroman> That's what I figured @queue
18:41:03 <oerjan> Taneb: pushdown automaton hth
18:41:05 <fizzie> A nondeterministic public display of affection can recognize a palindrome, though.
18:41:24 <mroman> The thing is...
18:41:27 <mroman> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/71/Pushdown-overview.svg
18:41:35 <mroman> What's state supposed to mean?
18:41:41 <mroman> Is that some sort of internal state?
18:41:48 <Taneb> "Roll the dice, if it's 1, we just hug"
18:41:51 <mroman> Modifieable by instructions on the input tape?
18:41:54 <Taneb> "That's not a palindrome!"
18:42:13 <fizzie> mroman: Just look at the mathy definition as opposed to confusing images.
18:42:28 <oerjan> mroman: yes, it has internal finite state in addition to the stack
18:42:43 <fizzie> The thing that starts with the 7-tuple.
18:52:44 <mroman> I'm trying to figure out whether Burlesque is a PDA
18:52:54 <mroman> it's probably not.
18:53:04 <mroman> You can't reverse the stack though.
18:53:36 <mroman> unless you know how many elements on the stack are or leave a marking element somewhere
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18:58:17 <oerjan> if you have only finite memory other than the stack, and cannot do anything to the stack below some depth without removing what's above, then it's probably a PDA.
18:58:45 <Vorpal> <fizzie> A nondeterministic public display of affection can recognize a palindrome, though. <-- what?
18:59:23 <Vorpal> oh, I blame Taneb for that
19:00:04 <oerjan> oh and each stack element has finite bounded size
19:00:23 <mroman> A stack element can have an infinite size.
19:00:31 <mroman> (eg. Blocks (Lists))
19:00:51 <mroman> so you can simulate a queue with a list I guess.
19:00:55 <oerjan> hm right
19:02:54 <mroman> which would probably make it turing complete.
19:03:46 <mroman> I can simulate brainfucks >< by rotating a list, +,- obviously by incrementing the head of the list
19:04:00 <mroman> [] using a while loop that checks the head of the list, done.
19:04:38 <oerjan> mroman: can you do underload's :()^ ? those are very simple for a stack language with blocks...
19:04:42 <Vorpal> mroman, are you trying to prove a new language TC?
19:05:21 <mroman> : is duplicate, I can do that.
19:06:05 <mroman> duplicate, swap, pop not a problem.
19:06:16 <mroman> and stuff is pushed automatically.
19:07:21 <oerjan> quite possibly !a* are also easy, but :()^ are all that are needed for TC
19:07:44 <mroman> ^ modifies the program?
19:08:15 <oerjan> it's really just eval
19:08:29 <mroman> hm.
19:10:20 <mroman> (:^):^
19:11:25 <mroman> It's probably easier to translate brainfuck to Burlesque than translating underload :)
19:11:55 <fizzie> If you have integers of infinite size as the stack elements, and can do suitable things to it, you could go via a two-counter machine too.
19:11:58 <mroman> Pushing instructions to the stack is possible
19:12:07 <mroman> but it requires a lot of wrapping stuff in blocks :)
19:12:36 <oerjan> mroman: ah so you don't have a way to simply parse nested blocks?
19:12:52 <mroman> oerjan: Nested blocks are no problem.
19:13:37 <oerjan> well then, hm
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19:14:10 <mroman> You can put code in a block and eval it.
19:14:11 <oerjan> ( -> { , ) -> } , : -> ^^ , ^ -> e!
19:14:21 <oerjan> is there anything wrong with that translation?
19:14:46 <mroman> so (:^):^ becomes {^^e!}^^e!?
19:14:54 <oerjan> yeah
19:14:58 <mroman> Sure, that works.
19:15:13 <oerjan> well then it's TC
19:17:17 <oerjan> ! and * may be vv and **
19:18:41 <oerjan> or maybe .+ for the latter
19:19:50 <mroman> .+ doesn't work for commands yet.
19:19:54 <mroman> but that'd be a good idea
19:20:12 <mroman> although
19:20:17 <mroman> .+ works for blocks
19:20:54 <mroman> hm.
19:20:58 <mroman> yeah... should work with .+
19:21:09 <oerjan> a might be {}\/[+ , assuming [+ nests if the arguments are both blocks
19:21:44 <mroman> blsq ) {ab} {cd} [+
19:21:44 <mroman> {ab {cd}}
19:22:01 <oerjan> excellent
19:22:28 <oerjan> so then you have all of underload except S, which tends to break with reencodings anyhow
19:23:32 <AnotherTest> mroman: http://pastebin.com/bMpJPxQA -- just a quick example. It lacks many things.
19:25:01 <AnotherTest> I had to make it skip whitespace because blsq gives me errors if I don't? Shouldn't all whitespace be ignored?
19:26:03 <mroman> White spaces are optional
19:26:08 <mroman> *whitespaces
19:26:18 <mroman> except after {
19:27:02 <mroman> hm.
19:27:23 <AnotherTest> mroman: it seems to happen only with newlines(?)
19:28:20 <mroman> Let me put an "optional spaces" after {
19:28:54 <AnotherTest> http://pastebin.com/gW3bfVu0
19:28:58 <AnotherTest> that gives me:
19:29:10 <AnotherTest> blsq: (line 3, column 1):
19:29:10 <AnotherTest> unexpected " "
19:29:30 <mroman> yeah, that's invalid because whitespace can't follow {.
19:29:40 <mroman> which is a missing optional spaces in my parser.
19:30:12 <mroman> ah
19:30:19 <mroman> Can't git just ignore binary files
19:30:27 <AnotherTest> yes
19:30:33 <AnotherTest> .gitignore
19:30:39 <AnotherTest> That should be possible
19:31:09 <mroman> I thought that only allows extensions?
19:31:12 <AnotherTest> Unless your binary files are in the same directory as the source code?
19:31:28 <AnotherTest> I put bin/* in there today, and that worked
19:31:53 <mroman> https://github.com/FMNSSun/Burlesque/commit/8d7addc5667a703091fff9194b79a613c29d6da4
19:31:56 <mroman> AnotherTest: Yeah that works.
19:32:02 <mroman> But I whish it would ignore binary files at all
19:32:04 <mroman> no matter where they are.
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19:33:44 <mroman> I sometimes do ghc --make main.hs -o burlesque to test things.
19:33:49 <Taneb> Hello
19:33:53 <mroman> and then when I do git add . it adds it
19:34:02 <mroman> and haskell binaries are like 6MB or so
19:35:38 <AnotherTest> I'm going. Tomorrow I will try to add functions or something else to Burlesque by using HELP. I think it's possible by adding a flag that will make it preprocess everything twice (this will allow a macro to generate a macro)
19:36:08 <olsner> don't use git add ., just add the right files instead
19:36:26 <mroman> I'm too used to git add . :D
19:36:32 <AnotherTest> or, if you really are lazy
19:36:38 <AnotherTest> *.hs
19:36:38 <mroman> Because
19:36:47 <mroman> sometimes I just edit files and have no idea which I edited
19:36:49 <mroman> so i just do
19:36:56 <mroman> git add .; git commit -m "*bump*"; git push;
19:37:00 <fizzie> git commit -a is also a lazy solution.
19:37:02 <mroman> silly me :)
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19:37:17 <mroman> git add *.hs?
19:37:19 <fizzie> (It will only add modified/deleted, not new files.)
19:37:28 <mroman> oh.
19:37:30 <mroman> fizzie: Thanks.
19:39:22 <fizzie> Overuse of "commit -a" might make one forget to actually add new files, though. (Personally I just take a quick git status to see what I've been doing lately, and then add explicitly.)
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19:40:01 <Taneb> I've... never figured out how to use git
19:40:06 <Taneb> Not that I've tried
19:46:19 <kallisti> it's not too difficult once you understand some basic stuff
19:50:28 <kallisti> unless you're Gregor
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20:25:17 <soundnfury> You can put filenames in .gitignore
20:25:27 <soundnfury> I usually put in the names of my binaries
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21:12:35 <Taneb> It occurs to me, that I have now bought Amnesia 3 times
21:12:39 <Taneb> Never played it
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21:30:58 <Sgeo_> tswett, what's this about a partnership?
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22:01:00 <fizzie> Sgeo_: I think it was a trap.
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