00:07:24 <Sgeo> oerjan, looks it
00:09:03 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/google/comments/y53ln/google_testing_a_new_favicon/
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00:26:28 <FreeFull> Just after we got used to the changed one?
00:27:26 <FreeFull> When did Google suddenly start being "We have to change stuff, just because"
00:27:37 <FreeFull> I guess when they started changing youtube
00:29:31 <ion> Much ado about a frigging favicon. :-P
00:30:16 <FreeFull> Hey, we have to look at it on our tabs!
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01:26:55 <ion> http://fun.drno.de/pics/english/anonymous-proxy.png
01:27:11 <zzo38> Turn off favicons if you don't want them
01:27:30 <zzo38> I don't use favicons
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01:37:10 <zzo38> Or if it is just that you don't want to look at it on the tabs, then remove it from the tabs.
01:37:12 <elliott> kmc: Hey, can astyle re-parenthesise code too? Or is it just indentation?
01:42:13 <FreeFull> zzo38: favicons are the quickest way to tell what website is in a tab without reading the title
01:56:07 <zzo38> FreeFull: Maybe to you it is.
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01:59:16 <oerjan> i'm always imagining zzo38 as a person who absorbs text faster than guis
02:03:41 <itidus21> maybe google realized that having a good looking favicon does not drum up business
02:04:11 <itidus21> but having an ugly favicon could perhaps make people think about google more
02:11:57 <oerjan> let's discuss that over a nice bottle of hägar the horrible cola.
02:12:40 <ion> I don’t see the ugly in the favicon.
02:18:10 <elliott> ion: Is "char *foo" or "char* foo" the common style? IIRC it's the latter for some reason, despite the former being more common in C.
02:19:21 <elliott> (Maybe because declaration-follows-use breaks down in the presence of C++'s references?)
02:19:38 <shachaf> elliott: I think that's the reasoning.
02:19:43 <ion> char* foo would make more sense because “char*” is the type… but in fact “char *foo, *bar” gives foo and bar the same type. So the * tends to be attached to the variable.
02:19:53 <shachaf> ion: In C, "char *foo" makes a lot more sense.
02:20:12 <shachaf> In C++, it still makes more sense, but not quite as much more for the reason elliott mentioned.
02:20:54 <elliott> ion: Yes, I'm aware of the dispute in C :P
02:20:56 <ion> I don’t really have any statistics about which style people tend to use.
02:20:58 <elliott> But C++ is all weird and stuff.
02:21:20 <shachaf> C++? More like Crazy++!!!!
02:21:57 <ion> @quote C.*arrow
02:21:58 <lambdabot> hgolden says: pioneers are the ones with arrows in their backs. at least ours will be categorical arrows.
02:22:20 <lambdabot> kmc says: Zagen, you'll need a zygohistomorphic prepromorphism from the bifunctorial Kleisli category of username-password pairs to a combinatory arrow calculus of php scripts
02:22:24 <elliott> Apparently Artistic Style is ~useless.
02:22:27 <lambdabot> No quotes match. You untyped fool!
02:22:33 <ion> I wonder if the quote i’m thinking of was in lambdabot or somewhere else, like bash.org…
02:22:36 * shachaf isn't sure what ion was looking for.
02:23:18 <ion> @quote C\+\+
02:23:19 <lambdabot> Axman6 says: well, if C++ is anything to go by, the next Haskell will have lambdas and easy concurrency!
02:23:28 <ion> @quote C\+\+.*arrow
02:23:28 <lambdabot> No quotes match. Maybe if you used more than just two fingers...
02:24:30 <elliott> For instance, astyle can't turn "return (foo);" into "return foo;".
02:24:34 <elliott> Anyone know a decent C++ reformatter?
02:24:50 <shachaf> But I think his rate is rather high.
02:24:52 <elliott> I want something brutal. I don't care if it destroys all manual alignments or whatever.
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02:26:25 <ion> All code should be stored as a representation of the AST with some formatting hints. Editors and viewers would then be able to format it according to the capabilities of the display media and the preferences of the user.
02:26:55 <elliott> ion: Thank you; that solves my immediate problem.
02:26:56 <shachaf> Now just implement it in a way that works.
02:27:05 <shachaf> That's the easy part, though.
02:27:13 <ion> elliott: You’re welcome.
02:27:22 <ion> You’re welliott.
02:27:38 <elliott> ion: You should play some Crawl for my amusement. Did you hear there's a new server?!?!?!
02:27:53 <shachaf> I was told to leave ##crawl and never come back by elliott.
02:27:57 <shachaf> So I don't hear the news anymore,
02:28:21 <shachaf> oerjan: monqy said it too.
02:28:27 <elliott> oerjan: (I didn't actually say that.)
02:28:33 <shachaf> elliott: You said something similar.
02:28:36 <ion> Obey elliott. Olliott.
02:28:44 <shachaf> Like "just go away" or something.
02:28:51 <oerjan> ah. monqy is of course the utmost authority.
02:29:11 <shachaf> Crawl, crawl, crawl your bot gently down the stream...
02:29:19 <ion> What was the name of the bot again? I thought it was Henzell, but apparently not.
02:30:08 <elliott> ion: CAO is down for a while, so it's Wenzell for now.
02:30:50 <ion> This means i could start a third simultaneous Crawl game that will rot there for months without me finishing it.
02:31:25 <shachaf> elliott: Did you read _Three Men in a Boat_?
02:31:58 <coppro> are we really arguing about which eszett is better?
02:32:07 <shachaf> coppro: That's not an eszett.
02:32:42 <elliott> ion: You should play a combo that isn't boring so I can be entertained.
02:32:48 <shachaf> Also, I looked up the codepoint for β. I should've known it by heart. :-(
02:32:56 <shachaf> elliott: How 'bout watching me play NetHack?
02:33:40 <ion> I only remember the codepoints for λ and π offhand.
02:33:50 <ion> out of the Greek letters
02:33:50 <shachaf> ion: Alpha is 3b1, so beta is 3b2.
02:33:59 <shachaf> Also, 2200 is forall and 2203 is exists.
02:34:22 <elliott> Wow, ion plays boring combos.
02:34:28 <coppro> I don't know any codepoints offhand
02:34:35 <coppro> except a few randoms in ASCII
02:34:40 <elliott> Actually I shouldn't speak since a fair number of my games are boring combos since I stopped playing Crawl and started playing ##crawl after a while.
02:35:13 <elliott> coppro: Hey, I need a C++ reformatter.
02:35:16 <shachaf> Ugh, what's UPWARD INDEX POINTING FINGER THING?
02:35:19 <coppro> elliott: go work on clang-indent
02:35:38 <elliott> coppro: Does it work today?
02:35:47 <elliott> coppro: Okay. Next option.
02:35:58 <oerjan> that should be right next to UPWARD MIDDLE POINTING FINGER THING right?
02:37:03 <shachaf> 225F EQUAL TO--OR IS IT [≟]
02:43:03 <ion> It seems another stylesheet change by Google has fixed https://plus.google.com/109925364564856140495/posts
02:43:47 <ion> Is ≟ in there? You should post it.
02:47:00 <elliott> Deewiant: You used to use 3-space indents, right?
02:47:58 <oerjan> pi space indents or bust!
02:49:05 <elliott> "There are currently 412 options and minimal documentation.
02:49:06 <elliott> Try UniversalIndentGUI and good luck."
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04:37:57 <elliott> shachaf: What was that dumb pathology wrt. sizeof?
04:38:09 <elliott> The one that made "sizeof (foo)" correct.
04:38:15 <elliott> Despite that being disgusting.
04:38:29 <shachaf> "sizeof (foo)" as opposed to "sizeof(foo)"?
04:38:49 <shachaf> It's "sizeof foo" for values and "sizeof (Foo)" for types, I guess.
04:39:00 <shachaf> http://mauke.hopto.org/stuff/c/sizeof.c
04:39:19 <shachaf> elliott: Just think of it as a little bit of Haskell inside the big scary world of C.
04:39:44 <shachaf> sizeOf (unsafePerformIO (readIORef ioRefToInt))
04:40:24 <elliott> Has anyone used uncrustify?
04:41:45 * ion laughs at sizeof.c
04:43:30 <FreeFull> Most roundabout way of doing sizeof(char) ?
04:43:50 <elliott> Yes, that's sizeof ((0)["abcdejojgpshjesgjoretjg"]).
04:45:08 <elliott> I know expressions inside sizeof are kind of restricted.
04:45:15 <elliott> But I'm not sure ""[0] will fly even then.
04:47:29 <FreeFull> But it allows you to do stuff like while(*(string++)){}
04:48:20 <shachaf> I think sizeof (""[1]) is also valid?
04:48:48 <oerjan> !c printf("%d", sizeof (""[1]));
04:48:53 <FreeFull> shachaf: Would be just as valid, but as a principle you shouldn't read from past the end of a string
04:48:59 <shachaf> oerjan: I said valid, not compiles.
04:49:11 <elliott> FreeFull: int main() { return ""[1]; } is invalid C code.
04:49:13 <shachaf> elliott: Right, but sizeof is sort of in between.
04:49:22 <elliott> Er, ignore that char != int there.
04:49:23 <shachaf> I mean, it doesn't actually evaluate the expression ""[1].
04:49:33 <elliott> int main() { char *s = &""[1]; return 0; } /* this is OK, though */
04:49:39 <elliott> int main() { char *s = &""[2]; return 0; } /* this is invalid */
04:49:40 <shachaf> If you can take that expression and &, maybe you can sizeof it too.
04:49:41 <FreeFull> elliott: Undefined, but a compiler won't error on it
04:49:49 <Sgeo> Should I be shot for contemplating writing the following Prolog code for use with DCG syntax?: get(A, A, A). put(A, _, A).
04:49:52 <elliott> FreeFull: I don't think you understand what "valid" means.
04:50:08 <elliott> shachaf: I think sizeof(""[1]) might actually be valid, yes... sizeof is very strange.
04:50:08 <FreeFull> sizeof() is evaluated during compilation
04:50:38 <elliott> (Whether a random compiler will accept a piece of C code doesn't say anything about whether it's valid C or not; it's very difficult (impossible?) to mechanically check for valid C anyway.)
04:50:46 <elliott> (And this is a question of standards, not compilers, anyway.)
04:51:35 <shachaf> Impossible, I'd be pretty confident.
04:52:10 <FreeFull> Well, for a constant string like that the compiler can easily check in this case
04:52:13 <elliott> shachaf: Right. Because you're not allowed to do ""[2], but you're allowed to do ""[2] in a branch that's never executed, aren't you?
04:52:26 <shachaf> elliott: Right, I was about to say that.
04:52:31 <elliott> So if (function_that_halts_if_unknown_mathematical_theorem_X_is_false())
04:52:42 <elliott> *unsolved, *hypothesis, blah, it's early
04:52:43 <shachaf> And you're allowed to say ""[n]
04:52:55 <shachaf> Where n = result_of_some_function()
04:52:59 <shachaf> (This is a more realistic situation.)
04:53:04 <FreeFull> Harder if it's something like for(i=0;i<something();i++) { "string"[i] }
04:53:09 <elliott> shachaf: Indexing the empty string: realistic.
04:53:40 <shachaf> elliott: Didn't you see my U+13F4E ZERO-WIDTH ELLIPSIS [🍎]?
04:54:02 <FreeFull> That doesn't look like an ellipsis
04:54:23 <shachaf> I typed in that codepoint "at random"
04:54:32 <shachaf> And it came out to one of my favorite non-BMP codepoints, RED APPLE?
04:54:40 <elliott> I thought Apple only gave one invalid codepoint a glyph.
04:54:49 <ion> sizeof (100000)[""] seems to be fine at least in GCC. The “parameter” is not evaluated.
04:54:58 <elliott> Or maybe FreeFull is just using some non-OS X operating system that uses an apple for invalid codepoints for some reason.
04:55:11 <elliott> ion: Well, yes, sizeof obviously can't evaluate its parameter.
04:55:19 <elliott> Because you can do int foo = complex(); ... sizeof foo ...
04:55:28 <shachaf> ion: The question is about whether the behavior is defined.
04:55:30 <elliott> The question is "how valid" the expression has to be.
04:55:37 <elliott> I am pretty sure that if &x is OK, then sizeof x is OK.
04:55:41 <elliott> But I don't have any references for that.
04:55:42 <shachaf> elliott: Nothing wrong with int foo = complex(); sizeof foo;
04:56:13 <FreeFull> Well, sizeof doesn't care what foo's contents are
04:56:16 <shachaf> I mean, the type of the expression is known whether or not you evaluate it.
04:57:14 <FreeFull> elliott: http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/192/screenshot140812055540.png
04:59:33 <elliott> shachaf: Hey, you said U+13F4E. But that's U+1F34E.
05:00:14 <ion> You should ask for your money back.
05:01:54 * elliott wonders whether he prefers `void f()\n{}` or `void f()\n{\n}`.
05:02:24 <ion> void\nf\n(\n)\n{\n}
05:06:18 <Sgeo> Is it generally acceptable to use DCG syntax as though it were syntax for the State monad?
05:07:07 <elliott> shachaf: Why doesn't `void f();` work for `void f() {}` like `for (;;);` works for `for (;;) {}`?
05:08:37 <FreeFull> elliott: As in, declaring a function that does nothing?
05:12:33 <elliott> Defining, rather than declaring. (The reason it doesn't work is because it'd let you omit the definition of a void-returning function accidentally without complaint, presumably.)
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05:24:58 <shachaf> elliott: It's a different kind of {}
05:25:30 <shachaf> elliott: for (...) is followed by a statement, just like if (...) and so on.
05:25:40 <shachaf> {} happens to be a "grouping statement"
05:25:57 <shachaf> But the {} isn't a "grouping statement" at all for function bodies.
05:26:10 <shachaf> (And anyway that syntax is reserved for prototypes.)
05:26:48 <shachaf> Maybe you're asking why function-declaration syntax isn't also followed by a statement.
05:26:56 <oerjan> Sgeo: i understand that the exact semantics of DCG may not be portable...
05:27:14 <oerjan> (from googling around just a bit now)
05:27:37 <shachaf> elliott: It's not just "omit it accidentally".
05:27:50 <shachaf> Definition happens in a different file from declaration.
05:28:10 <elliott> shachaf: I know all of that.
05:28:15 <Sgeo> So I can't, say, rely on different Prologs to put the additional arguments at the end of the ... whatever
05:28:21 <oerjan> that is, it is not in the standard and so is subtly different
05:28:41 <Sgeo> get(A, A, A). put(A, _, A). Is that likely to work as I expect?
05:28:45 <shachaf> elliott: Good, it's all C 101.
05:28:51 <oerjan> Sgeo: yeah that's what i was thinking as i starting googling because i thought they were put at each end
05:28:59 <shachaf> I'm not sure what your proposal for how to make it work is, though?
05:29:10 <elliott> shachaf: I don't have one, I'm just whining about a problem I know is already solved the best it can be.
05:29:15 <oerjan> that is, i was thinking that i wasn't sure that was right order
05:29:19 <elliott> Although wouldn't it be funny if you could write `int f(int x) return x:`?
05:29:25 <shachaf> elliott: The problem is probably better-solved by not using C!
05:29:31 <shachaf> (Wait, you're using C++, aren't you?)
05:30:22 <Sgeo> Please tell me that Objective-C++ isn't a thing.
05:30:24 <oerjan> Sgeo: aren't there some DCG predicates you can use to write get and put less directly?
05:30:34 * oerjan hasn't tried it himself
05:30:52 <Sgeo> oerjan, I'm still somewhat new at Prolog, and very unsure of DCG stuff
05:31:08 <Sgeo> Besides this iteration, last time I even touched Prolog was... 2006 maybe?
05:33:21 <elliott> nl_func_scope_name { Ignore, Add, Remove, Force }
05:33:21 <elliott> Add or remove newline between function scope and name in a definition
05:33:21 <elliott> Controls the newline after '::' in 'void A::f() { }'
05:33:24 <elliott> People put a newline there?
05:33:58 <shachaf> @@ @@ (@read @run unwords . map (\x -> "(@karma " ++ x ++ ")") . map concat . sequence $ [["obj","objective"],["","-"],["c"]])
05:34:00 <lambdabot> objc has a karma of 7 obj-c has a karma of 1 objectivec has a karma of 0 objective-c has a karma of 7
05:34:20 <shachaf> elliott: I'm guessing the motivation is "make '^functionname' greppable".
05:34:28 <shachaf> Which isn't unreasonable motivation.
05:34:34 <HackEgo> "But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked. "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
05:34:38 <shachaf> It's similar to the reason for "void\nfoo(...)"
05:34:49 <elliott> shachaf: Isn't that what tags are for. :(
05:35:27 <shachaf> elliott: Speaking of which, I got really confused today grepping through GHC RTS code.
05:35:29 <zzo38> Yes you are correct you must be mad or you wouldn't have come here. No escape either, sorry.
05:35:32 <shachaf> By grepping I mean ack-grepping.
05:35:37 <elliott> `addquote <zzo38> Yes you are correct you must be mad or you wouldn't have come here. No escape either, sorry.
05:35:41 <shachaf> Because ack doesn't search .cmm files by default.
05:35:41 <HackEgo> 855) <zzo38> Yes you are correct you must be mad or you wouldn't have come here. No escape either, sorry.
05:40:19 <elliott> Is that ack an acknowledgement?
05:40:46 <shachaf> elliott: Let's say int (*f)(int);
05:40:57 <shachaf> How should you call f? f(5) or (*f)(5)?
05:41:25 <shachaf> But declaration-blah-use. :-(
05:41:48 <shachaf> Maybe it should be (**f)(5), just to be on the safe side!
05:42:28 <ion> > "(" ++ repeat "*" ++ "f)(5)"
05:42:29 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[GHC.Types.Char]'
05:42:35 <ion> meh, cycle
06:05:07 <elliott> shachaf: Should I port this C++ codebase to Rust?
06:06:11 <shachaf> ((The) innermost) outermost ((one)).
06:08:27 <zzo38> elliott: None of them.
06:08:35 <zzo38> (Not even this one.)
06:08:50 <ion> Believe this one.
06:09:41 <ion> Keep your finger to yourself.
06:09:45 <zzo38> No. Don't believe any one.
06:29:19 <zzo38> If you want to have values of a recusrive datatype replace by the value operated by a monad, you can do something which resembles it somewhat by continuation monads, it seem like, a little bit.
06:29:58 <Sgeo> Prolog doesn't have lambdas, does it?
06:30:48 <FreeFull> C doesn't have lambdas, does it?
06:31:30 <ion> The Greek alphabet doesn’t have lambdas, does it?
06:31:50 <zzo38> Actually I think it does, isn't it?
06:32:08 <ion> zzo38: I think you may remember incorrectly.
06:36:46 <zzo38> Probably Greek alphabet have deltas too.
06:39:50 <oerjan> now you are just being silly.
06:40:18 <ion> Omicrons are a lie.
06:44:36 <zzo38> Perhaps you can even make up a kind of multi-continuation by CodensityAsk with some GADT.
06:46:18 <fizzie> The lambda Greek alphabet has lambdas.
06:50:58 <zzo38> Although I think it could also be made as a product of monads.
06:59:05 <zzo38> Or, make something else by Codensity with some GADT?
07:03:14 * oerjan swats everyone with a digamma -----Ϝ
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07:08:10 <elliott> that is not a digamma. that is an F
07:10:17 <elliott> ps since when can oerjan do unicode
07:11:11 <oerjan> at least i can cut and paste it
07:13:54 <FreeFull> That digamma looks like an F to me too
07:14:11 <FreeFull> Charmap does say it's digamma though
07:14:13 <oerjan> i assume it's what latin F descended from
07:14:33 <elliott> if ((grd[you.x_pos][you.y_pos] < DNGN_STONE_STAIRS_UP_I
07:14:33 <elliott> || grd[you.x_pos][you.y_pos] > DNGN_ROCK_STAIRS_UP)
07:14:33 <elliott> && (grd[you.x_pos][you.y_pos] < DNGN_RETURN_FROM_ORCISH_MINES
07:14:33 <elliott> || grd[you.x_pos][you.y_pos] >= 150)
07:14:33 <elliott> && grd[you.x_pos][you.y_pos] != DNGN_EXIT_HELL)
07:14:34 <elliott> ew, I really need to fix this indentation
07:14:37 <elliott> (thanks for being my pastebin, #esoteric)
07:15:09 <oerjan> that's just elliott's subtle way of telling us to go to hell
07:16:10 <elliott> why would I need a subtle way to do that
07:16:18 <FreeFull> It's funny how zeta is between epsilon and eta
07:16:32 <FreeFull> When in latin it's at the end of the alphabet
07:16:57 <shachaf> elliott: How about fixing it with a between() function?
07:18:04 <shachaf> Wait, that's an ||, not an &&
07:18:14 <shachaf> Anyway, how about fixing it with, y'know, *some* abstraction?
07:18:32 <elliott> shachaf: I don't get paid that much.
07:18:40 <elliott> (Also I didn't write that bit.)
07:18:55 <elliott> (I was complaining more that the reformatter had messed up the alignment, really.)
07:19:05 <shachaf> Oh, you're using a reformatter?
07:19:25 <Sgeo> ...I'm pretty sure that this tutorial... isn't so great :/
07:19:40 <elliott> It's... a pretty elaborate reformatter.
07:19:52 <elliott> I wrote those lines by hand.
07:20:30 <shachaf> I'm pretty sure this wine-flavored beverage...
07:20:39 <ion> is not an emulator?
07:20:55 <ion> YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
07:23:06 <elliott> oerjan: By the way, ban everyone & go to hell.
07:23:33 <oerjan> i'm sorry elliott, i cannot do that.
07:25:22 <elliott> oerjan: Then how can you be sure?
07:25:53 <oerjan> by the power of ... CHEESY REFERENCES
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12:41:10 <itidus21> im not up to constructing a derivative joke, but "for grape good", "wine users", "sour grapes"
12:48:42 <kmc> "Did people ever refer to Kaliningrad as Soviet Prussia?"
12:48:50 <lambdabot> Local time for shachaf is Tue Aug 14 05:48:46 2012
12:53:37 <shachaf> kmc: Wow, irssi doesn't handle this "Zalgo" thing very well.
12:53:42 <shachaf> E.g. m̸͔̟͖̟̩͎̜̈́ͦ̽̕ͅe̪̟͉̰̼̮̞̳ͨͩ̿ͤr̵̷̼̼̙͎̗̯ͮ́͘ȉ̵̢̟̰̝̻́͊̔̄ͦ̚͠j̖̱͆̓͌̽̃͊̚͜n̟̗ͨ͗̀͝
12:54:47 <itidus21> singing talent show winner becomes judge on singing talent show several years later.
12:55:42 <shachaf> (singing (talen show winner)) becomes (judge on singing) (talent show) several years later.
12:59:36 <fizzie> Several talent show years later.
12:59:42 <fizzie> (They're very different from regular years.)
12:59:43 <shachaf> m̪̰̬̙̝̂̊͟͝e̺̠͚̳̯̯͚̠͉͒̇̓ͪr͈̠̹̖̩̲̰͔ͧ͟i̿ͥ҉̬̫̺̕j̶͙̭̭̼̰̤͑ͦ̒ͪͬͨ͘ͅn̡̫̣̲̳̘̝̝͗̏̀̚
12:59:46 <shachaf> ̨̞̟̰ͣ̎͊͘m̴̟̤̬͎̩̺̮̗̑ͧ̑͟ë̫̪͉͚͓͙̗̰́͂͋̌͗r̜͊̓ͥͩ̄̐ī̵̴͓̬̾̏̈́ͫj̷͈̯̤̣͚̏̃ṉ̴̛̹͙̄̃̍ͧ͜
12:59:49 <shachaf> ̯͓̪̜͙̉ͫ͗̀ͯ̈́̋ͫ͜m̧̠̾͟ȅ̸̠͉͍̗̙͕̩̣ͤ̄ͭ̅͠r̸͙̣̦̫͎͈̩̲͗ͪ̍i̴̟̱͇͖͎̪̮ͣ̅̀̿͐̊̿͠j̣͙̜̃̒͡n̡͚̥̔̑̑ͧͭ̂̍́
13:00:04 <itidus21> from WP "[has performed] for Pope Benedict XVI, Oprah Winfrey and Queen Elizabeth II"
13:00:05 <shachaf> I wonder what that looks like to other people.
13:01:38 <itidus21> for me it's merijn with lots of boxes with four 0's
13:01:39 <kmc> i found "Texas Honkey-Tonk Cantina" in Estonia
13:02:18 <fizzie> kmc: Was it an Authentic American Experience?
13:04:03 <itidus21> in my home suburb, on the main road are the typical australian shops, but head down the side streets and you enter a very asian world
13:04:15 <itidus21> i feel like a complete outsider there
13:04:39 <kmc> fizzie: beats me
13:04:47 <kmc> i have little desire to eat there
13:05:08 <itidus21> they would rightfully all wonder if some scruffy 30yr old wandering about in the middle of the day was selling or seeking drugs
13:05:13 <fizzie> Maybe if you tell them some American secrets you'd get a discount.
13:07:13 <fizzie> There's a "Classic American Diner" in Tampere, Finland, incidentally.
13:07:14 <itidus21> start eating some chocolate and it probably looks like i've got the munchies
13:07:26 <fizzie> It's not quite up to a "Honkey-Tonk" standard though.
13:07:57 <itidus21> a place actually named honkey-tonk sounds hardcore levels of american
13:07:58 <quintopia> reminds me of iceland's kantrybaer
13:08:44 <quintopia> (pardon my filure to use fancy latin-1 symbols)
13:08:45 <fizzie> They've decorated the Diner in some sort of fakey-American way.
13:09:10 <ion> Latin-1? Vade retro!
13:09:17 <itidus21> fizzie: and dress like this? http://images.tvrage.com/screencaps/31/6190/206619.jpg
13:10:04 <fizzie> itidus21: Well, they had some sort of an uniform, that much I remember; maybe not exactly like that.
13:10:26 <itidus21> heres another! http://download.lardlad.com/framegrabs/3F20/124.jpg
13:10:31 <fizzie> It looks like this: http://www.fonecta.fi/images/stillpics///files/369441.fonecta.client/1240246822148_1_large.jpg
13:11:16 <fizzie> I'm trying to find a photo that'd show their "paintings", I think there was something about them.
13:12:15 <fizzie> These are all so low-resolution things. :/
13:12:46 <fizzie> I think they had photoshopped stuff so that it looks as if they'd have existed for years and years, or something like that.
13:13:21 <itidus21> i remember some restaurant here which had license plates all over the walls.. and was called captain america's
13:14:53 <fizzie> They have some sort of a competition that you get your name on the hall-of-fame list if you eat (alone) one of their "Big Tower" burgers; it's got 1020 grams of meat, plus all the other stuff.
13:14:58 <fizzie> That I guess is American?
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13:15:59 <itidus21> i have been convinced that eating comically oversized burgers designed to give you heart problems is an american tradition
13:17:37 <oerjan> reminds me of my old coworker's ex-wife, when she was in the us she supposedly got a diploma for eating "the world's hottest burger"
13:18:22 <oerjan> (she also had the habit of making food so spicy they had to throw it away)
13:19:15 <fizzie> There was a chili sauce with the brand name "PAIN 100%" advertised in the shop yesterday.
13:20:09 <fizzie> http://www.scorchio.co.uk/pain-sauce-p-433.html <- this one.
13:20:22 <fizzie> I doubt it's very high up in any rankings or anything, but at least it tries.
13:20:24 <oerjan> 08:42:24: <itidus21> lol
13:20:24 <oerjan> 08:46:54: <elliott> lol
13:20:54 <oerjan> you know if history had taken a slightly different turn "lol" could be the emoticon for raising both hands in celebration
13:21:07 <elliott> fizzie: TELL ME ABOUT: Code reformatters.
13:21:25 <oerjan> i'm sure myndzi would agree, except he's not here :(
13:21:45 <fizzie> Oh, and I was in this real backwoods "bar" today, and they had a (handwritten) page advertising their Facebook page on the bulletin board.
13:21:47 <quintopia> oerjan: why would it have been? \o/ looks morerealistic
13:21:51 <itidus21> oerjan: to me they look like tanks with missing turrets
13:21:57 <oerjan> itidus21: a nocebo medicine
13:22:01 <fizzie> elliott: I don't know about them.
13:22:19 <itidus21> oh nocebo....... i only recently saw this word on WP
13:23:03 <oerjan> dun dun dunning-kruger, wait haven't i said that before
13:24:15 <oerjan> quintopia: maybe if backslash had never been invented...
13:24:43 <quintopia> oerjan: what a strange alternate universe
13:24:59 <oerjan> in this universe, windows somehow was nearly unix-compatible from the start
13:26:01 <oerjan> as a result, linux never took off, and open source is restricted to the marginal gnu movement
13:26:13 <itidus21> this is my artistic depiction of lol's as tanks http://oi46.tinypic.com/2cieivn.jpg
13:26:57 <kmc> seen in sarajevo: http://i.imgur.com/fGBV3.jpg
13:27:48 <itidus21> well i saw the L's as the tank treads
13:28:09 <quintopia> they look like side-mounted turrets in that pic
13:28:27 <oerjan> fizzie: did the bar have a handwritten qr code?
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13:28:55 <itidus21> one thing for sure is that they look like they should look like something
13:30:01 <itidus21> the person raising their hands is so obvious in hindsight
13:34:19 <fizzie> But I located the place after a bit of Google Mapsing around: http://goo.gl/maps/rJf7g
13:34:26 <fizzie> (Should open a streetview thing.)
13:34:33 <fizzie> It didn't look like a Facebooky place.
13:36:09 <fizzie> Their page stats seem to be: "6 like this; 1 talking about this; 27 were here; Also on: foursquare".
13:36:48 <fizzie> The foursquare page has 13 total people, 14 total check-ins; the Mayor of the place is the one with 2.
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13:55:39 <Gregor> ??? Pidgin's Skype plugin highlights both parties in the same color.
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14:50:54 <Gregor> <itidus21> i have been convinced that eating comically oversized burgers designed to give you heart problems is an american tradition // I admit that I have done this.
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17:07:56 <FreeFull> Burgers that give you more calories than you should have in a day?
17:09:42 <ogrom> are there such burgers?
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17:27:57 <fizzie> Is a kilogram of meat enough for that?
17:28:10 <fizzie> (With all the other fluff you'd expect in a burger with a kilo of meat.)
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18:20:05 <Sgeo> When your middle name is danger...
18:20:20 <monqy> is this a joke about bad parenting
18:21:04 <Sgeo> It's the name of a song
18:21:07 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tw2VDWB-u2Y
18:21:24 <monqy> what an awful joke
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19:28:17 <Phantom_Hoover> monqy, what's green, grows on lawns and is made of concrete.
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19:30:47 <monqy> i'm bad at riddles
19:30:47 <olsner> hmm, I don't like that hg commits are annotated with the branch name
19:31:03 -!- Taneb has changed nick to atriq.
19:31:52 <olsner> what if my local naming scheme for branches is like anagrams of "fucktard" or something?
19:32:39 <olsner> or... multiples of 97 in finnish
19:33:50 <olsner> apparently, "The biggest advantage to using named branches is that every changeset on a branch has the branch name as part of its metadata"
19:37:08 <fizzie> olsner: Nolla, yhdeksänkymmentäseitsemän, satayhdeksänkymmentäneljä, kaksisataayhdeksänkymmentäyksi, kolmesataakahdeksankymmentäkahdeksan, neljäsataakahdeksankymmentäviisi, and so on.
19:38:08 <olsner> except I'd probably start at yhdeksänkymmentäseitsemän
19:38:20 <atriq> Today I spent money on cosplay
19:38:47 <fizzie> olsner: Are you saying 0 is not a multiple of 97!
19:40:54 <olsner> fizzie: no, I'll just leave that particular multiple for last since it's boring
19:41:46 <olsner> also, why use yhdeksänkymmentäseitsemänsata when you can jump straight to yhdeksänkymmentäseitsemänsatayhdeksänkymmentäseitsemän
19:42:57 <olsner> when is it sata and when is it sataa?
19:43:39 <zzo38> atriq: What money and what cosplay?
19:43:58 <atriq> zzo38, Jake English cosplay, 50 pence for some sticky tape
19:44:08 <olsner> is there no torvalds rant about how mercurial is ridiculously stupid?
19:44:35 <atriq> Phantom_Hoover, you don't know how cheap my cosplay is
19:45:05 <atriq> I printed out his symbol and stuck it to my shirt
19:46:23 <ion> olsner: “A hundred”: “sata”. “Two hundred”: “kaksisataa”, like “two hundreds”.
19:46:30 <fizzie> olsner: It's "sata" if there's just one hundred.
19:47:08 <fizzie> olsner: And you wouldn't generally say "yhdeksänkymmentäseitsemänsataayhdeksänkymmentäseitsemän" for 9797 either, you'd just say "yhdeksäntuhatta seitsemänsataayhdeksänkymmentäseitsemän".
19:47:21 <atriq> Phantom_Hoover, it ripped during the course of the day
19:47:39 <atriq> And in an odd place
19:48:16 <olsner> fizzie: ah, of course ... I didn't know the word for thousand yet :)
19:48:24 <atriq> Hey, the University of Canberra wants my oppinion
19:49:18 <fizzie> olsner: That's tuhat/tuhatta (compare sata/sataa) if you happen to need a single thousand in Finspeak.
19:50:00 <olsner> there's bound to be one or two multiples of 97 between 1000 and 2000
19:50:26 <atriq> We also got kicked out of...
19:50:34 <atriq> the top floor of the multi-storey car park
19:50:39 <olsner> no, it's like unexplored terrain, we'll see when I get there
19:50:47 <fizzie> olsner: I tried three random numbers that were >= 1000, < 2000, and none of them were multiples of 97. It doesn't look good.
19:51:55 <olsner> I found two primes after just 10 numbers, so 1/5 numbers are primes, but 0/3 are multiples of 97
19:52:29 <fizzie> I think this is what's called mathematics.
19:53:03 <olsner> Mathematics, or the art of finding and observing numbers
19:53:35 <FreeFull> Dziewieć tysięcy siedemset dziewiećdziesiąt siedem
19:54:34 <FreeFull> I think 194 is a multiple of 97
19:54:42 <fizzie> But it's not over a thousand.
19:55:01 <olsner> are either of 194 or 1940 primes?
19:55:08 <atriq> fizzie, psychology
19:55:18 <FreeFull> A prime isn't a multiple of anything but 1 and itself
19:55:32 <atriq> Numbers tend to act like numbers that look like numbers similar to themselves
19:55:35 <atriq> Peer pressure and thart
19:55:54 <FreeFull> So no multiple of 97 other than 97 is a prime
19:56:30 <olsner> how do you know? have you checked all of them?
19:57:59 <olsner> you can't have, there's an infinite number of primes! 1/5th of infinity is still infinity, you know
19:58:34 <ion> Oh, elliott is not here.
19:58:55 <ion> They mistyped his name. ‘According to sources, despite his initial concern, Ryan relaxed after deciding that Romney would "absolutely love Elliot" when the two met at the Republican National Convention later this month.’ http://www.theonion.com/articles/paul-ryan-wondering-if-he-should-have-told-romney,29166/
19:59:42 <FreeFull> 97 is the only prime that is a multiple of 97
20:11:55 <atriq> That must have taken a while
20:19:09 -!- atriq has set topic: Behold! The enchanting pants of Narcissus! | Just a remote control and some old gum | atriq is Taneb, just so you know | With creativity, anything can be a topic | except this | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
20:19:42 <ion> Hah. Stephen Colbert mentioned “Hepatitis C++”
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20:36:22 <atriq> newb isn't in my spell-checker, but newbie is
20:36:40 <Gregor> That's because it's spelled “n00b”
20:37:54 <olsner> "newb" is in a weird place between not correctly spelled and not sufficiently incorrectly spelled
20:48:42 <zzo38> However, does your spellcheck ignore digits in words?
20:49:20 <atriq> zzo38, it treats them as whitespace
20:49:35 <atriq> Which makes it think "isn't" isn't a word
20:51:45 <olsner> sounds like you should throw it out and start checking your spelling manually and/or learn to spell
20:52:00 <ais523> compiler I've written is failing due to some sort of combinatorial explosion that causes strings to not fit in memory
20:52:14 <ais523> boss's solution is to attempt to rewrite the compiler to use a data structure other than strings, which has a higher length limit
20:53:27 <ais523> I'm currently trying to explain why that's unlikely to help
20:53:39 <olsner> is the compiler using only string as its data structure?
20:53:43 <ais523> (apart from the obvious reasons, there's also the issue that the string in question is copied to the compiler's output)
20:53:57 <ais523> olsner: no, this is happening within the output code
20:54:15 <ais523> when it converts its parse tree representation of the code it wants to generate to a string so it can put it in a file
20:55:02 <olsner> oh... that'll really fix itself by allowing strings longer than the strings that don't fit in memory in the first place
20:55:18 <FreeFull> ais523: Can't it write the string straight to the file without storing it in memory?
20:55:53 <olsner> you should point out that the real problem is the lack of infinite storage and suggest he buys you a turing machine
20:58:23 <ais523> FreeFull: you are missing the point
20:58:58 <ais523> a combinatorial explosion in the length of the output is going to make the output useless
20:59:13 <ais523> especially as we're targetting embedded systems here…
20:59:19 <ais523> FreeFull: I don't know, presumably a bug
20:59:35 <FreeFull> Well, I assumed it was intentional
21:02:26 <ais523> why would you think I'd intentionally put a combinatorial explosion in my compilers?
21:04:26 <olsner> maybe your objective is to make your boss disappear for a few weeks implementing special over-long strings so you can get some work done
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21:56:54 <zzo38> Can you make a music by square wave?
22:00:09 <ion> zzo38: Sure, although in digital synthesis you have to use band-limiting to avoid aliasing artifacts.
22:01:16 <shachaf> ion: I'm totally in parentheses right now, if you know what I mean.
22:01:28 <lexande> hmm if everybody here is Finnish, any suggestions for things to do in Helsinki?
22:01:30 <zzo38> ion: Well I suppose you can do that too. Famicom audio 2A03, VRC6, MMC5, Sunsoft includes square channels most of them you can adjust the duty as well except Sunsoft is fixed at 50% duty.
22:01:41 <shachaf> lexande: I'm Finnish but I've only spent two weeks of my life in Finland.
22:01:55 <shachaf> For one of them I was three years old.
22:02:34 * ion strips shachaf out of parentheses with $
22:02:59 <shachaf> ion: You have no idea what you're doing, fool!
22:03:04 <shachaf> I have a *type signature*!
22:03:30 * ion unsafeCoerces shachaf
22:04:04 <shachaf> foo $ shachaf :: bar, see.
22:04:17 <shachaf> lexande: Did you go to a sauna? That's a popular thing to do in Finland.
22:04:23 <shachaf> I hear that's all they ever do, in fact.
22:04:42 * ion is on IRC from sauna
22:04:44 <zzo38> 2A03 and MMC5 square channel is 12.5% or 25% or 50% or 75% duty, and VRC6 square channel can have eight settings of duty from 1/16 to 8/16.
22:05:19 <zzo38> Famicom Disk System audio can also be programmed with a square wave.
22:05:34 <ion> zzo38: PWM with square waves is a nice effect in music synthesis.
22:06:22 <zzo38> ion: OK. Possibly it can be made also with Csound.
22:08:25 <zzo38> Does Csound have a command for PWM?
22:11:17 <zzo38> ion: Have you written music?
22:11:24 <ion> Yeah, some.
22:11:44 <zzo38> Which one? What program? What format? What other stuff?
22:12:13 <shachaf> ion probably used Famicon Disk System.
22:12:38 <zzo38> shachaf: Are you sure?
22:13:29 <ion> I’ve used Lilypond to engrave musical scores. Other than that, don’t really use PCs to make music. (Except i’d like to continue my software synthesizer project some day, but i have trouble getting things done.)
22:14:52 <zzo38> What software synthesizer project is it?
22:15:32 <ion> Nothing special, just a program that takes MIDI in and pushes audio out.
22:16:34 <fizzie> ion: You must be taking part in some kind of vagueness-in-IRC competition, right? :p
22:17:17 <ion> I’m not sure what to say about it. :-D
22:17:32 <ion> It’s a software synthesizer. That’s what it does.
22:17:35 <zzo38> I found some program to make MIDI file, called SakuraMML, but I get some error when I try to use it in my computer
22:18:43 <ion> I was writing it in C++ in 2004 and this was the last thing i got out of it before the project pretty much died. If i ever get around to continuing, i’ll write it from scratch in Haskell. http://johan.kiviniemi.name/tmp/syna-20040729.ogg
22:19:13 <zzo38> Csound can also take MIDI to make audio out.
22:19:25 <ion> Yes, plenty of programs can.
22:20:01 <fizzie> ion: Sure, sure, but that would cover just about anything. Is it a wavetable kind of thing, or a pile of LFOs and simple waveforms and filters wired together and summed up, or something more generic, or something more restricted?
22:20:24 <zzo38> Although, Csound can also take other input formats as well, such as the numeric score. It doesn't have MML but possibly software could be written to convert MML to numeric score format.
22:20:33 <ion> I used band-limited impulse trains.
22:21:39 <ion> But it could use any method of synthesis, that’s just what i implemented (in addition to pure sine waves) so far.
22:21:51 <fizzie> That's more like it. (Though I have zero clue why I proceeded with the interrogation.)
22:22:13 <ion> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZBXA4ye_us&fmt=18 http://johan.kiviniemi.name/music/delusions_of_grand_piano.pdf
22:24:14 <ion> The sound in syna-20040729.ogg consisted of a “supersaw”, i.e. two sawtooth waves (made by integrating BLITs with an appropriate bias) playing the same thing with one of them very slightly out of tune. And the output was low-pass filtered.
22:24:28 <ion> with a varying cutoff frequency
22:25:15 <zzo38> Csound has a large number of commands for synthesis, though, including sine waves, wavetable, waveguide, granular, FM, additive, subtractive, noise, physical modeling, stochastic, samples, prepared pianos, and a lot more and they can also be combined using mathematical formulas.
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22:26:57 <zzo38> There are also many kind of input, including MIDI, GUI, Wii remotes, etc
22:27:38 <FreeFull> I wrote an FM synth in C that outputs raw sound data
22:28:30 <zzo38> The VRC7 Famicom audio is also FM synthesis
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22:29:13 <zzo38> I wrote a sine wave synth in C that combine wave to make sound for telephones (DTMF, blue box, red box, dial tone, busy signals, SIT) and that outputs raw sound data.
22:31:56 <zzo38> Does anyone make .NSF using all six expansions including the 2A03 audio?
22:33:38 <fizzie> I heard a rather fancy "sound texture synthesis" presentation at a conference a while ago. The funniest bit was that even though it's really non-physically-inspired (bandpass filterbank + parametric statistics -- distribution moments up to kurtosis, auto- and crosscorrelations -- of the subbands, and then synthesis to get signals with those parameters) it did a rather nice job of reproducing ...
22:33:45 <fizzie> ... sort of "stationary" environmental sounds, like rain, wind, fire, whatever.
22:33:50 <fizzie> (I may have already mentioned this.)
22:34:18 <zzo38> O, OK. Do you have a Csound code to implement those sound effects?
22:37:27 <ion> fizzie: Sounds cool. Do you have a URL?
22:38:09 <fizzie> zzo38: No, though their paper has the algorithm, and it should be possible to reimplement it. Maybe I should give it a go some day. (Though they don't give their parameter values for their sample sounds, which they mention were based on collecting those statistics from "commercially available CDs".)
22:38:38 <fizzie> ion: http://www.cns.nyu.edu/~jhm/mcdermott_waspaa09_final.pdf looks like the paper I remember, though I haven't been to that workshop.
22:38:50 <fizzie> It was possibly at ICASSP.
22:40:47 <fizzie> It has some amount of possibly-not-so-interesting-from-some-perspectives stuff about perception.
22:41:02 <fizzie> I see they've made a longer journal paper out of it: http://www.cns.nyu.edu/~jhm/McDermott_2011_texture_w_SI.pdf
22:41:15 <fizzie> But that probably goes deeper to that side of it.
22:42:26 <fizzie> (And you can probably get more "realistic" sound synthesis by other means if that's the primary goal, I just thought it was kinda interesting.)
22:43:47 <fizzie> Man, synthesis people have it so easy, they can just have a presentation with 50% (or more) of demo audio samples, and everyone'll sit, listen and pay attention since it's not just a boring presentation like a hundred others.
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22:54:09 <fizzie> Went to the logs to find out where I heard about this thing, and found this amusing description of a guy who used to stick electrodes into ferret brains.
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22:57:32 <fizzie> I think I've pasted this before, but maybe it's still amusing: http://sprunge.us/ENPI
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23:47:18 <zzo38> Do you know if the Bluetooth on OpenPandora is compatible with Wii remotes? Also do you know if it is possible to replace the operating system, and if doing so will affect the battery life?
23:59:30 <soundnfury> wait... quintopia and shachaf are /both/ LWians?